1 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:14,440 To explore with one of the most prominent minds in 2 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:18,160 parapsychology the nature of consciousness, the condition of 3 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:22,240 science and the many mysterious lives of magic as a means to 4 00:00:22,240 --> 00:00:24,600 change the world. This is Neon Galactic. 5 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:26,600 I'm James Falk Thanks for joining us. 6 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:30,320 Excuse my long silence. Technical difficulties and 7 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:33,760 demonic gremlins apparently combined dark forces this past 8 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:37,040 week to addle my hard drive and prevent publication. 9 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:41,240 It's a challenge, both fiscally and otherwise, to produce and 10 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:44,080 distribute this show, these pivotal conversations every 11 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:46,680 week. To do so, I need support. 12 00:00:47,160 --> 00:00:49,680 If you're inclined to climb down from the cheap seats and become 13 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:53,360 a patron of Neon Galactic, a driving force behind this 14 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:57,000 dialogue of discovery, please subscribe, then visit 15 00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:00,640 patreon.com/neon Galactic to become a sponsor. 16 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:05,280 Exclusive content articles and active Discord server and more 17 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:09,000 await your investment. Without your support, this shows 18 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:13,480 days are likely numbered. So, as I was saying, the snafu 19 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:17,600 Dragons have since been slain. The show goes on, and today 20 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:20,600 we're blessed with a guest who has done more to establish the 21 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:24,440 reality of sigh phenomenon in his career than virtually any 22 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:26,800 other researcher still working in the field. 23 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:30,400 Dean Radin, longtime parapsychologist and chief 24 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:33,680 scientist at the Institute of Noetic Sciences, a research 25 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:36,600 enterprise founded by astronaut and visionary Edgar Mitchell 26 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:39,600 Raiden's new book, The Science of Magic. 27 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:44,520 How the Mind Weaves the Fabric of Reality is several things. 28 00:01:44,960 --> 00:01:47,720 It reviews the exhausting evidence for Sigh phenomena, 29 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:51,760 indict the debunker class for its stubborn refusal to engage 30 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:55,920 with that evidence, then reminds us that a language and syntax 31 00:01:55,920 --> 00:02:00,680 already exists by which society might understand and utilize the 32 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:02,880 reality of sigh for better living. 33 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:06,640 That language, of course, is magic with AK. 34 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:10,039 If you prefer to distinguish this modality from the top hats 35 00:02:10,039 --> 00:02:13,800 and rabbits that illusionists long ago made famous. 36 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:17,160 Raiden's book reviews the experimental evidence and 37 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:20,120 character of Sigh, then translates those methods and 38 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:23,640 categories into the rather comfortable diction of sorcery. 39 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:27,240 The book reminds us that though we may be entering a new 40 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:31,280 paradigm for science, humanity has long understood and even 41 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:36,080 deployed psychic capabilities in a broad range of earthly, at 42 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:39,880 times even cosmic pursuits. He shares those ready made 43 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:43,560 notions with a new audience, giving his readers a clear path 44 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:47,200 into an efficacious age of mind over matter. 45 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:51,280 Along the way he describes the likeliest natures of reality 46 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:55,040 given the magical facts and underlines how such an exotic 47 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:58,360 subject relates on the ground to the broad spectrum and 48 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:01,960 vocabulary of everyday human experience. 49 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:06,560 Magic made real, then useful and finally practical. 50 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:10,640 Abandoning the self serious and rather gothic aesthetic so 51 00:03:10,640 --> 00:03:14,320 common to those writing about magic and mind powers, Raiden 52 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:17,320 does much of the public's ontological heavy lifting here 53 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:20,560 by reminding us that even where the biggest mysteries in the 54 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:25,040 universe are concerned, there is as yet nothing new under the 55 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:27,760 sun. And he does all this with both 56 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:31,760 levity and charm. So the dark arts work to crack 57 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:35,240 you up. Thus truly abracadabra. 58 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:37,760 Welcome to the show Dean. Thanks for joining us. 59 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:41,480 Thank you, that was a a nice introduction. 60 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:45,480 Well, thank you. I deeply enjoyed your book. 61 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:48,880 I enjoy all your work. Of course, I think that I meant 62 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:51,880 it when I said that I think you've done more to prove the 63 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:55,120 reality of PSI than almost any other man in the field right now 64 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,280 or person in the field, not to be, you know, gender specific, 65 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:01,680 but your new book. Let's start there. 66 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:06,120 Can you sort of describe for us what your mission was and taking 67 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:09,200 on this book and what you hope to accomplish by reminding the 68 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:12,960 public that PSI and magic are very much related phenomena? 69 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:19,200 Well, so the previous book on a similar theme I I published in 70 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:25,320 2018 called Real Magic, and that was more or less an introduction 71 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:29,920 for the public on what is the status of cyber search, which 72 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:32,120 has been going on since the late 1800s. 73 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:37,720 And then to show that the basic phenomena that we study are 74 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:42,080 essentially the same as what the Western esoteric traditions have 75 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:45,120 called magic. The difference primarily being 76 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:50,840 that cybersearch is a scientific enterprise largely focused on 77 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:54,920 proof orientation, which means does this exist? 78 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:58,640 Do these phenomena exist? And then secondly, on 79 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:01,920 understanding the process involved and coming up with 80 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:05,200 theories to help describe it that would be compatible with a 81 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:09,880 scientific worldview. Whereas magic traditionally was 82 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:13,800 a practice. It was, it was like the the 83 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:18,120 pragmatic application of psychic phenomena in a wide variety of 84 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:22,400 uses. But also like most of our 85 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:26,480 historical documents, over the years, it becomes elaborated. 86 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:32,160 So our sense of Harry Potter is today influenced by her. 87 00:05:32,280 --> 00:05:36,480 Yeah, our Harry Potter today is what we think of magic and the 88 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:39,040 way that entertainment portrays magic. 89 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:42,640 And so it's it's huge elaborations over what is likely 90 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:45,560 to be true. What we see in the laboratories 91 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:48,640 is real, but rather small effects. 92 00:05:48,840 --> 00:05:52,960 We see it mostly through statistics, but that So what we 93 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:55,920 see a lot of things through statistics if if they have to 94 00:05:55,920 --> 00:06:00,000 have a lot of variance in that. So that's, I mean, from a 95 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,560 scientific perspective, that's irrelevant that we we're 96 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:05,440 interested in this. Does this exist? 97 00:06:05,840 --> 00:06:09,840 Well, yeah. So if PSI exists, magic is 98 00:06:09,840 --> 00:06:14,920 essentially the same phenomena seen through history and 99 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:19,040 different cultures, then it essentially means that there's a 100 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:21,280 resurrection of magic that's happening. 101 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:24,480 Eventually. Science doesn't like to to use 102 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:26,560 the word magic because it's a placeholder. 103 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:29,760 We will come up with new names that won't. 104 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:33,080 We won't use magic anymore. We'll use some other name which 105 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:35,480 will be basically the same kind of phenomena. 106 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:41,320 And all of it, including psychic phenomena, is helping us 107 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:46,000 remember that what we are taught about who and what we are like 108 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,880 There are books that have titles like You Are Your Brain, Full 109 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:53,240 stop. That's not completely correct. 110 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:57,560 We, we are more than our brain. We still don't have a good 111 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:00,320 handle on what we mean by consciousness, but all of this 112 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:03,280 is revolving around the meaning of consciousness in some way. 113 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:10,000 And it looks like it is bigger to, it's difficult even to know 114 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:13,840 what label to attach to it. But it's, we are more than our 115 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:16,280 brain and our consciousness seems to be spread out in the 116 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:19,280 universe. And I think just today or within 117 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:22,840 the last couple of days, an article came out and a journal 118 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:26,520 published by the American Institute of Physics, which is 119 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:32,040 like mainstream physics, which the author is presenting a 120 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:37,320 theory or or a proto theory about how consciousness may be 121 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,000 fundamental meaning more fundamental in the physical 122 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:42,080 world, which is philosophical idealism. 123 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:46,720 And that maybe the physical world as we experience it 124 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:49,440 emerges somehow out of consciousness. 125 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:54,640 So it's presented in the in the public adds for this thing as a 126 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:57,480 new theory, new radical theory proposed, blah blah blah. 127 00:07:57,480 --> 00:07:59,240 It's not new. It's been taught by in 128 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:00,920 philosophy for thousands of years. 129 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:02,040 Exactly. It's. 130 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:02,480 What? Is new. 131 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:06,760 What's new is that it shows up in a mainstream physics journal. 132 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:10,200 So they go back to the book for a minute. 133 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:14,360 One of the the opening gambit in the book is that it's no longer 134 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:18,960 that we might eventually see some sort of paradigm change 135 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:22,240 eventually, someday. We are right in the midst of it, 136 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:25,720 and it's so obvious now for anybody who's paying attention 137 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:27,640 that we're beyond the knee of the curve. 138 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:32,520 That means that that when consciousness is seen as a 139 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:35,280 serious scientific topic is already settled. 140 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:40,720 That's already the case when things like sigh and magic also 141 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:43,360 start to penetrate into the academic world and to the 142 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:48,120 scientific world is imminent. Now, I don't know whether that 143 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:52,400 means next week or 10 years from now, but it's I can feel it 144 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:54,680 palpably that that's where we're headed. 145 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:57,960 What is going to be the mechanism for that, do you 146 00:08:57,960 --> 00:08:59,400 think? I mean, like, because when I 147 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:02,640 read your book, it's almost frustrating because you describe 148 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:06,960 so eloquently the massive amounts of evidence that have 149 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:11,560 accrued and the statistical, you know, assuredness of the 150 00:09:11,560 --> 00:09:15,400 phenomenon by virtue of, you know, all of the combine studies 151 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:18,360 throughout the last 100 years. And it's like you have to be 152 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:20,960 wearing blinders not to accept that there is something going 153 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:22,560 on. And you mentioned to the, you 154 00:09:22,560 --> 00:09:25,000 know, the effect size. And maybe that isn't as dramatic 155 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:27,200 as some folks would like. It's not like Harry Potter. 156 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:29,680 But there's something that consistently happens. 157 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:33,200 That evidence is out there and it's been out there for a long 158 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:34,480 time. And yet you have people like you 159 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:37,440 quoted in your book who are like, I'm not even going to look 160 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:38,960 at the evidence because it's impossible. 161 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:41,840 So therefore it doesn't happen. You know, the just full 162 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:44,720 shutdown. What can possibly breakthrough 163 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:47,240 that? Do you think that hasn't already 164 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:47,920 occurred? I guess? 165 00:09:48,680 --> 00:09:52,120 Yeah. So there's a probably a parallel 166 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:57,520 here with what is happening with the UFOUAP business and that 167 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:02,320 there are more and more academics who are willing to go 168 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:07,320 public with their ideas. And we've done surveys where we 169 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:11,200 specifically asked scientists and engineers, have you ever had 170 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:14,880 experiences that fall into one of these 25 different 171 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:17,920 descriptions? All of them were psychic, but we 172 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:21,160 didn't use any terms like that. We just said, did you have the 173 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:23,440 feeling of being stared at and then you turn around and the 174 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:25,240 person is there, Those kinds of things. 175 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:29,800 So each one of them potentially could have an ordinary 176 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:33,600 explanation, but we've also tested these in the lab and we 177 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:36,960 know that there's also an actual psychic explanation for each one 178 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:39,960 of these things. So, and we we asked people how 179 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:42,480 many of these 25. And among scientists and 180 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:46,120 engineers at elite universities around the world, which you 181 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:51,160 would expect to be the most skeptical, 93% said, yes, we've 182 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:54,840 had at least one of those experiences and on average 8. 183 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:59,760 So the, from an experiential point of view, the game is over. 184 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:02,480 We, we know that these things happen, happens to everybody, 185 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:05,400 every, every strata of society and education. 186 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:09,640 But there has been a very, very strong taboo. 187 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:12,680 The woo woo taboo has been around for a very long time. 188 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:17,120 Yeah. So it's, it's pushed by what we 189 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:19,280 can call it's a kind of conventional scientific 190 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:22,360 perspective, which is skeptical and proper. 191 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:27,560 And also by religion, many religions think this is all 192 00:11:27,560 --> 00:11:31,240 demonic, so you shouldn't do it. And so you have pressure from 193 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:35,400 both, both sides that have been trying to corral what will we 194 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:39,120 talk about in public. And it's completely culture 195 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:42,200 bound. So I've, I've gone to India and 196 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:44,600 talked to universities there and it's like, well, it's not even a 197 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:47,720 big deal. In fact, the existence of 198 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:52,480 psychic phenomena is so well accepted that there's basically 199 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:56,320 nobody in India who's studying this stuff because if well, it's 200 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:58,440 self-evident. Why would you want to study 201 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:00,440 that? It's like studying air or 202 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:01,840 something. You know what, what are you 203 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:05,200 doing? So the, the culture, boundless 204 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:08,920 of it is very clear. And, and what we can say is the 205 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:14,400 Western educational system, it's sort of like the the US and big 206 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:18,000 chunks of Europe are still extremely skeptical about this 207 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:20,960 stuff that is not true elsewhere in the world. 208 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:27,520 And so there's an advantage to studying these kinds of 209 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:30,640 phenomena within a very skeptical academic setting. 210 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:33,560 You know, I mean, this is not not the case everywhere in the 211 00:12:33,560 --> 00:12:37,680 public, people accept this. But even within the public, 212 00:12:37,680 --> 00:12:39,480 there's a taboo about what you talk about. 213 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:42,440 Some people are comfortable talking about these things. 214 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:46,760 But as we know, anybody who portrays themselves as a 215 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:51,200 psychic, whether real or not, the image as society puts on 216 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:55,560 that person is tinfoil hat. Well, look at the parallel with 217 00:12:55,560 --> 00:12:58,560 UFOs. For a long time it was Farmer 218 00:12:58,560 --> 00:13:01,760 Bob with a tinfoil hat. That's the image that was being 219 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:04,200 pushed. So they have to step back from 220 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:06,840 that a little bit and say, well, who's pushing it? 221 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:08,480 Like what? What? 222 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:12,720 Where's that coming from? Some of it, as I think I I 223 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:17,640 mentioned in the book, is a disinformation campaign very 224 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:20,560 similar to the same campaign with UFOs. 225 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,560 And so now you say, well, why would there be a disinformation 226 00:13:23,560 --> 00:13:25,200 campaign? What are they trying to hide? 227 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:28,840 Well, during the Cold War, at least for the psychic side, it 228 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:32,960 was clear that we had a Stargate program going and we knew the 229 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:36,000 Russians did, and we kind of suspect the Chinese did as well. 230 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:41,120 Those programs are probably still going both in the US and 231 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:44,360 everywhere else. But there's somewhere between 232 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:48,360 embarrassment and pressure from religious fundamentalists who 233 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:50,880 say this is demonic and we don't want the government to pay for 234 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:53,720 it. So again, it's all completely 235 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:57,320 culture bound. That's unfortunate. 236 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:02,040 It also is tantalizing because, you know, as one who follows the 237 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:06,240 UFO subject quite closely, you know, you see all of the, you 238 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:09,400 know, sort of conspiracy theories and the actual fact of 239 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:13,680 legacy programs potentially that have been embedded in secret 240 00:14:13,680 --> 00:14:17,640 government, you know, hangers for for decades. 241 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:20,040 And you have to wonder that there, you know, there was the 242 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:24,360 Stargate program and its follow ONS that we're doing remote 243 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:26,800 viewing work. But how deep does the psychic 244 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:28,800 rabbit hole go within government? 245 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:32,080 I mean, you know, we can imagine all kinds of things you hear 246 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:35,720 about psionic children potentially being taught early 247 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:38,280 through like gifted and talented and education programs that 248 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:41,680 maybe we're trained up to be, you know, pilots of these things 249 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:44,640 or at least to, you know, communicate with them. 250 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:48,440 It just raises all these questions about how 251 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,800 fundamentally aware is the government of these facts and 252 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:55,240 what does it mean that they are still trying to keep it secret? 253 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,200 Do you have you ever come across anything like that that seemed, 254 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:04,040 you know, as someone who is obviously, you know, very good 255 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:06,160 and accomplished an experimentation in this field? 256 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,720 Have you ever come up against a program that seemed like it was 257 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:14,200 government funded, that maybe had some moral, you know, qualms 258 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:17,320 or issues surrounded with it that you kind of got a bad taste 259 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:22,800 in your mouth about? Well, in the Stargate program, 260 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:28,360 we were somewhat aware that at least in the Russian program, 261 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:33,960 that they were not adverse to seeing whether an individual 262 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:39,400 could affect another person's mind or body for for health 263 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:42,240 reasons or just to influence their decisions, that kind of 264 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:44,320 thing. And we didn't do that. 265 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:48,520 In fact, the director of our program for a long time was 266 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:51,880 completely convinced that any form of psychokinetic influence 267 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:55,720 did not exist. And so that wasn't part of the 268 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:58,040 program at all. The, the only thing we were 269 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:01,000 looking at was essentially clairvoyance and its new name, 270 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:06,240 remote viewing and trying to figure out why are some people 271 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:09,400 very, very talented in that domain and others are not. 272 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:13,560 And we, we never figured out what that was. 273 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:18,760 Today with genetic methods, we have a chance to, to look for a 274 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:21,960 possible genetic underpinning for that kind of talent, because 275 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:25,920 we know that talent in virtually any other domain does have a 276 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:29,040 genetic basis. I mean, you don't even need to 277 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:32,200 go to genetics. You just look at the sons and 278 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:36,600 daughters of great basketball players, you know, and every 279 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:37,920 other domain, that's the way it is. 280 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:40,920 So it's always a combination of nature and nurture. 281 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:44,600 So the nature part is the genetics, the nurture is, are 282 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:48,320 you brought up in an environment that would help push that, that 283 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:51,640 predisposition? Because if you're not, you may 284 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:53,400 never know that you have that talent. 285 00:16:54,360 --> 00:17:00,480 So, so are there programs that are using nefarious means to, to 286 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:04,400 use psychic abilities? If there are, I don't know about 287 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:06,359 them. So I, I've been out of the 288 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:08,960 classified world for a long time now. 289 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:15,880 And I do know because somebody told us about a month ago that 290 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:20,240 the government does have a remote viewing program because 291 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:25,280 she told us in a in a public setting and she would know it's 292 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:28,319 almost certainly not classified because in those, in that 293 00:17:28,319 --> 00:17:30,480 context, you just don't say things like that. 294 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:35,560 So that means that it's quiet, which in many ways is actually 295 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:40,280 better than classified because in a classified system, there's 296 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:42,840 all kinds of rules of what you can say and what you can't say. 297 00:17:43,120 --> 00:17:47,640 And you, you, you don't talk about it except that there are 298 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:50,400 millions of people who have the right classification to know 299 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:53,040 what you're doing. And so if you want something to 300 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:55,200 really be quiet, you have two choices. 301 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:58,760 You either put it into the deep black where only people who are 302 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:03,040 read in on the project can under and know that it's there, or you 303 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:05,680 just make it private. Just like a, you know, company 304 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:07,960 will have proprietary information. 305 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:10,560 Well, we have no idea what they're doing at this point and 306 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:12,440 you can't get it either. There's no Freedom of 307 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:15,280 Information Act. Exactly so it can stay buried 308 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:17,680 for the long term and there's no oversight ultimately. 309 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:21,360 Which seems to be the case with the legacy program with UFOs, 310 00:18:21,360 --> 00:18:22,640 yeah. Exactly right. 311 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,080 And if the 2 are related, like has been claimed recently, I 312 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:28,080 could see that there would be, you know, complementary programs 313 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:32,120 and development that, you know, would be off book and doing 314 00:18:32,120 --> 00:18:35,840 things in secret. You mentioned the genetics of 315 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:37,520 it. And I just had a thing that I 316 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:40,640 saw on X which I wanted to ask you about. 317 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:43,920 It claims to be claims that you have discovered the genetic 318 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:48,800 route of psychic ability. And I wanted to ask you how I 319 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:52,720 mean, I'm not if that's true, I've never heard that before. 320 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:57,280 But then also, how closely examined have we looked at the, 321 00:18:57,360 --> 00:18:59,120 you know, the genes behind this sort of thing? 322 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,680 And are we honing in any sense where we can begin to, you know, 323 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:04,680 identify what that genetic mechanism might be? 324 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:07,200 Do you remember who wrote that on? 325 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:10,040 XI don't. It was a video quote and it was 326 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:11,840 just something that I saw on my scroll and I'm like, I'm going 327 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:13,360 to talk to him. I should mention that to him. 328 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:17,120 Well, OK, so we we do at the institute. 329 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:20,560 They call it Gene 7 or something like that, or yeah, I don't 330 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:21,320 know. It was weird. 331 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:28,480 Well, OK, we, we have a program we call Side Genes at our 332 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:34,200 institute. And this is interestingly, you 333 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:37,080 know that Gary Nolan from Stanford is one of the main 334 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:39,360 figures in the whole thing, UFO thing. 335 00:19:39,360 --> 00:19:43,280 So Gary came to our institute one day and said wouldn't it be 336 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:48,320 interesting to look at the genetics of not only psychic 337 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:51,880 people, but people have UFO contact experiences. 338 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:56,360 And there's a number of reasons for that which I'm not, I'm not 339 00:19:56,360 --> 00:19:58,720 clear yet whether that's public information. 340 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:01,520 So I won't repeat what Gary what Gary said, but. 341 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:07,040 It, it, it did encourage us 'cause we've been interested in 342 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:12,160 this for a while and encouraged us to get a grant to study 343 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:15,920 people who said that they were psychic from psychic families. 344 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:19,560 And then we vetted that they actually have some talent versus 345 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:22,920 people who never said they had any psychic thing happen and, 346 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:24,760 and no one in their family ever said it either. 347 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:29,480 So we found a very small group of people, like a dozen on each 348 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:32,960 side and got their DNA into the full genome and did a 349 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:35,800 bioinformatics comparison between the two. 350 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:41,360 And we found a difference. So with a, when you find a 351 00:20:41,360 --> 00:20:46,160 difference in a very small case control study as this is, you 352 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:47,960 never know is that was that a fluke? 353 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:51,720 Most statistically significant, but it's too small to make any 354 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:55,200 conclusion. So we've just recently submitted 355 00:20:55,200 --> 00:21:00,880 a new analysis where we got the DNA from people who did 23andMe 356 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:05,240 and ancestry.com, those kinds of places which you can get your 357 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:09,080 genome. So we, we got that from about 358 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:13,440 100 people and they all filled out a questionnaire and 359 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:15,920 different kinds of experiences that they had. 360 00:21:16,360 --> 00:21:18,720 And so now we're looking at the correlation between the various 361 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:23,440 snips, the little pieces or sequences of the, of the genome 362 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:27,720 versus how they responded to these various questions on what 363 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:31,040 kind of experiences you had. And again, we find that there 364 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:36,960 are some snips, little sequences that are related to different 365 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:39,600 psychic abilities. The same ones as before. 366 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:45,360 No different ones that This is why we need $10 million to do 367 00:21:45,360 --> 00:21:46,680 this, right? Of course. 368 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:51,400 So like, like I, I have frequent discussions with people who are 369 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:54,680 looking at the genetics of schizophrenia, which is now 370 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,200 pretty well established. There are genes that are passed 371 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:00,360 down and if you have it, unfortunately likely to get 372 00:22:00,360 --> 00:22:05,040 schizophrenic at some point. So those required 10s of 373 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:09,440 thousands of cases and controls. That's how you find what those 374 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:12,120 genes are. And it's not a gene, it's 375 00:22:12,120 --> 00:22:15,000 constellations of genes. It could be hundreds of genes. 376 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:18,640 But we also know through similar studies that there are 377 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:24,320 constellations of genes that end up with different kinds of 378 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:27,040 intelligence. So the two categories are called 379 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:31,400 crystalline and fluid, which sort of tell what we're talking 380 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:31,880 about. South. 381 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:34,800 A crystalline intelligence is like a highly analytical person 382 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:38,200 and a fluid intelligence is someone that's very creative and 383 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:40,840 sometimes they don't know a lot. They they don't necessarily 384 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:42,400 overlap. So you can have people like 385 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:45,640 either under that spectrum and they have different sets of 386 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:51,400 genes. So again, the a large chunk of 387 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:54,840 our personality, our predilections, food allergies, 388 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:58,560 you name it, medical issues do have a genetic basis. 389 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,000 Some people don't like to hear that because then it sounds like 390 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:07,240 we're we're destined to have certain problems and certain 391 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,160 talents and you got it or you don't. 392 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,560 So, you know, it doesn't give us the sense of free will and 393 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:14,480 flexibility that we'd like to imagine. 394 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:20,960 And it that complaint is does have a real basis because 395 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:23,680 there's also an epigenetic element here. 396 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:27,960 So training, practice, context, what you eat, environment, all 397 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,280 of that. It also makes a big difference. 398 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:32,400 So you're not. Going to activate sometimes 399 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,960 those genetic triggers, right, But and that can be a bad diet 400 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,560 or whatever, yeah. Yeah, so the the environment 401 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:43,080 makes a big difference. Even personality and who you 402 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:45,080 deal with all all of these things make a difference. 403 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,600 Again, it's nature and nurture. So you're not locked into your 404 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:52,120 genetic basis. On the other hand, if you're not 405 00:23:52,120 --> 00:23:55,320 probably 610 or above, you're not going to play professional 406 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:56,920 basketball no matter what you do. 407 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:00,400 Maybe. There are a few exceptions like 408 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:02,080 that, but they're extremely rare. 409 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:04,920 Very unusual. People who are able to be in 410 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,840 professional basketball and not be at least 6 feet tall. 411 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:12,000 I can't think of any off hand but on the. 412 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,400 Other Spud Webb might be 1, maybe I don't. 413 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:15,920 I'm not a basketball guy, but the name sounds. 414 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:18,360 Yeah, well, I'm not either, but you know, you wouldn't. 415 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:23,000 Have you ever been in the in the in the same room in proximity 416 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:27,800 with actual basketball players? It's like looking at giraffes. 417 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:32,560 I mean, they're, they're mutants as compared to the average 418 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:34,000 population. So OK. 419 00:24:35,360 --> 00:24:39,640 Same, by the way, is true for for football players and also 420 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:43,000 professional wrestlers. So I was once on an airplane. 421 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:47,160 There was a bunch of professional wrestlers there and 422 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:50,840 they were so big. I didn't know that a person can 423 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:54,200 be that big. I mean, just massive. 424 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,400 I felt sorry for them because they all look exhausted. 425 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,520 Probably because you know what they do anyway. 426 00:25:01,120 --> 00:25:03,120 But they're also fitting into an airline seat. 427 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:05,800 If you are that large, there's got to be a massive challenge. 428 00:25:07,360 --> 00:25:11,000 They they had a squeeze in, yes. Absolutely. 429 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,040 So a question I have for you that I mean, sometimes when I'm 430 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:18,280 considering this stuff, my own internal skeptic kicks chimes in 431 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,840 and I and I hear things like, you know, we're bound in some 432 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,680 sense by our genetics in terms of our personality and how our 433 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:26,160 mind works and how intelligent we are. 434 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,880 But then there's also the idea that I've come to really embrace 435 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:34,040 enthusiastically is that our personalities or our minds are 436 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:38,240 dispersed in a larger, you know, consciousness and that this is 437 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,520 all sort of emergent the world from consciousness. 438 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:45,160 How do you rectify the two in your own thinking? 439 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:50,160 Well, as long as we are embodied, we're we're stuck with 440 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:51,760 the physical structure that we have. 441 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:56,000 So it, while you can be a philosophical idealist and 442 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,040 imagine everything is emerging out of consciousness, that 443 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:01,560 doesn't necessarily mean it's your consciousness. 444 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,120 Like you can make a distinction between little C consciousness, 445 00:26:05,120 --> 00:26:08,680 which is sort of my experience, and big C consciousness, which 446 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:12,200 is the whole shebang. So I'm a little piece of 447 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,240 something much larger, at least that's my perception of it. 448 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:20,400 In which case maybe the physical world does emerge out of big C 449 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,760 consciousness in some way. But I personally don't have much 450 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:27,240 control over that. I can control in the sense of 451 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:31,960 minor magic, minor psychic stuff, things sort of here and 452 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:36,800 now, but big things like I think I'll create a universe today. 453 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:41,240 I, I don't think I can do that. So, and maybe it's my belief 454 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:44,000 structure that's preventing me from actually doing it. 455 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,800 I hope not, because then if you got one person's a little bit 456 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:50,080 off, they can just decide, well, this, this universe is finished 457 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:52,400 now. I would prefer that wasn't the 458 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:56,680 case. So while we are embodied, we 459 00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:00,200 have certain capabilities, we have certain limitations. 460 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:04,120 And so to deny that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. 461 00:27:06,360 --> 00:27:09,800 Even if it was an illusion, it doesn't make any sense because 462 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,560 it's, it's like we're constantly reminded of it. 463 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,080 We know about our physicality and what it can do. 464 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,960 So is there a genetic basis then to talent? 465 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:24,320 We can measure it, we see it. It doesn't seem to be an 466 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:25,840 illusion. It doesn't go away if we don't 467 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:29,240 like it. So this is the, you know, we put 468 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:33,600 on your, your hard science hat and say, well, even though yes, 469 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:38,360 consciousness may ultimately be the fundamental ground, there's 470 00:27:38,360 --> 00:27:43,320 only so much where we can push against it and, and simply 471 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,560 decide that that's not the case. That doesn't mean, of course, 472 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,840 that there isn't. And then then a measurable 473 00:27:50,120 --> 00:27:52,840 effect of consciousness on the physical world. 474 00:27:53,120 --> 00:27:56,120 It's more as, as John Wheeler said, it's a participatory 475 00:27:56,120 --> 00:27:58,920 universe. We are engaged in some sort of a 476 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,440 dance. And yet both sides have 477 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:05,040 limitations on it. So the Super, super psychics 478 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:08,080 that we hear about, they're a little bit less. 479 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:11,120 They're looser in terms of the limitations. 480 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,880 They're able to push the world maybe in larger ways and 481 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,840 occasionally spontaneously. We do see large things happen, 482 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,480 but it doesn't seem to be under conscious control. 483 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,080 It makes me, you know, it's sort of that question of how much of 484 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,640 does the, you know, the awareness or, or sort of the 485 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:34,320 higher self shape its own vehicle in in the housing, you 486 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,400 know what I mean? Like if there is a sort of a 487 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:41,520 larger Uber being that is encapsuled within our our meat 488 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,760 suits, maybe there's some shaping that happens pre birth 489 00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,840 or or whatever else that reflects some of those deeper 490 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:49,600 interests. Those are questions we can't 491 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:51,320 answer, obviously, but fun to think about. 492 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:55,320 Well, and I mean, even just look at the placebo effect, your, 493 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:59,040 your belief can change how you are physiological, 494 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:04,400 physiologically operating and you can make yourself well or 495 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:06,320 I'll depending on what you believe. 496 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,800 So this is all still from a mainstream perspective. 497 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,680 It's all like inside the body, It's psycho neuro immunology. 498 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:16,080 It's like inside. But we've done studies looking 499 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:20,080 at can you affect somebody's nervous system at a distance? 500 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,280 Yes, you can. And they're completely unaware 501 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:25,200 of it, but you can measure that it's happening. 502 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:30,280 So we could also influence somebody else's behavior, or 503 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:34,320 actually more like attention. We can affect attention at a 504 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:36,080 distance and likely behavior too. 505 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:38,360 Although I don't know that anyone has actually done an 506 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,440 experiment like that. OK, put that on my To Do List. 507 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:43,960 I was going to say, where's the notebook? 508 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,600 Well, so it'd be simple tasks like you know there just pick an 509 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,720 object at random in meanwhile you have somebody trying to 510 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:54,360 influence and pick that one. Well, there have been tests like 511 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,640 that. There have been there like ESP 512 00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:01,240 tests where from one perspective you can see it is purely passive 513 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:03,800 to a classic. One was done by Charlie Tart 514 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:07,200 years ago where you take 8 playing cards and you arrange 515 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:11,360 them on a circle and now you're trying to mentally influence 516 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,200 other people at a distance who had the same cards and to 517 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,280 arrange them the same way on the circle. 518 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:18,000 So there's two ways of thinking of it. 519 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:22,600 One is they get a mental picture of maybe I should put this card 520 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,040 over there and I want to put this card over here. 521 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,440 The other way of thinking of it is I'm going to influence you to 522 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:32,440 put the card over there. Well, discriminating between 523 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,600 those two possibilities is not so easy in an experimental 524 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:39,440 context, but nevertheless, I can imagine we could figure out ways 525 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,320 of doing experiments where you're literally trying to 526 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:46,840 influence somebody to do to, to pick something, to do something 527 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:49,600 as a decision. And I would suspect that that 528 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:52,560 would work. Your book has an example and 529 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,320 maybe I'm misreading what you're talking about, but do you guys 530 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:59,640 seems to influence someone to call you or call someone late at 531 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,480 night that wasn't on their typical call list? 532 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,320 And when they called, they're like, I don't know why I felt 533 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:06,960 like I needed to call you, but I did. 534 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:09,240 Can you talk a little bit about that? 535 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,360 Yeah. That's about as close to magic 536 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:15,400 as as we've ever done. So people know about remote 537 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:17,920 viewing, people. Many people know about 538 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:21,280 associative remote viewing. This is manipulative remote 539 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,880 viewing. And it, it was created almost 540 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,920 from a theoretical perspective where we're looking at how do we 541 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:32,720 know the difference between a precognitive effect, where, 542 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:34,760 where it looks like there's some kind of information from the 543 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:36,600 future that ripples backwards in time. 544 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:41,240 So it's retro causal versus a causal push, which we can call a 545 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:44,400 psychokinetic effect, which is forward in time. 546 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,920 Well, so we're talking about effects that are pushing through 547 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,240 time in the forward and then something from the future coming 548 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,080 back. And it from an experimental 549 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:58,160 point of view, it's very difficult to know which, where's 550 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,280 the influence coming from? And if you go way down into the 551 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:05,320 quantum world, the present is influenced by both the past and 552 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:08,360 the future. Future boundary conditions and 553 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:11,800 fast boundary conditions are both kind of reverberating to 554 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:15,720 make the present, at least from that micro perspective, this is 555 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:17,800 not so strange. The question is, does it also 556 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:21,800 work in a macro scale? So manipulative remote viewing 557 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:27,680 is using precognition of a future event to 'cause that 558 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:29,600 future event to, to actually happen. 559 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:34,360 So that's, that's how we did it. I mean, I have the description 560 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:36,040 in the book. I hope it was clear enough so 561 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:39,440 that, you know, if you wanted to try it, you, you could just 562 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:43,200 follow the, the steps involved and see if it works. 563 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:50,160 So in that case, a highly accurate remote viewing would 564 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:53,640 predict that a random number generator would produce a 565 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:58,400 certain output in the future. Otherwise it wouldn't close the 566 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,200 causal loop that a precognition creates. 567 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:05,600 And so we did that experiment. The random generator gave the 568 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,760 right number, we gave feedback, it closed the causal loop, 569 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:10,960 everybody was happy. And then we freaked out because 570 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,600 it worked. So the larger question is, what 571 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,520 else can you force happen in the future? 572 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:24,720 So a colleague of mine, very, very smart, very straightforward 573 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,800 physicist who it would be the last person in the world you'd 574 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,840 imagine would be completely on board with remote viewing and 575 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,640 all of this stuff. But nevertheless, it's part of 576 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:37,080 this invisible College of lots of people are interested. 577 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:42,520 So he did an experiment where he did a a precognitive remote 578 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:44,320 viewing, got very good results in it. 579 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:47,680 And the thing that would have to happen in the future to close 580 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:51,960 the causal loop was for somebody that he randomly selected from 581 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:57,040 his contact book to call him at a certain time on a certain day. 582 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,320 And so that so that that was the setup. 583 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:04,080 OK, so that person, so we, he was in a pub with some friends 584 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:09,239 and at the appointed time the selected person called him. 585 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:13,239 Everybody was thinking what in the world is happening? 586 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:16,400 But more importantly, the person who called was very angry 587 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:20,400 because if somebody would never call him before, would certainly 588 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:24,080 not call him at 10:00 at night and was angry because he didn't 589 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:25,840 know why he was calling, but he felt compelled. 590 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:32,600 And so this suggests that there is a way to influence people and 591 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:38,000 which makes us uncomfortable because, you know, we and of 592 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,840 course, the other example I give in in the book is my own 593 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:46,120 synchronicity where I was manifested to appear to somebody 594 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:49,159 else. And I, I think I have free will 595 00:34:49,159 --> 00:34:51,639 and I didn't feel like I was compelled to do anything. 596 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:55,600 But nevertheless, I show up at a door, the door opens and the guy 597 00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:59,960 practically passes out because he was willing that to occur. 598 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:06,480 So yeah, all of this if if you start thinking about the 599 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:10,800 implications throughout strong psychic phenomena, whether it's 600 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:16,160 spontaneous or not, it does it makes you feel destabilized. 601 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:18,840 And that may be yet another reason why a lot of this is 602 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,520 suppressed, because it's a little bit freakish. 603 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:24,800 And I hear from people all the time who have premonitions of 604 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:26,480 airplane crashes and things like that. 605 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:30,120 And then they all feel very guilty afterwards that they 606 00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:35,400 didn't let anybody know because as though it's unlikely that 607 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:39,000 they caused it, but at least that they didn't, they didn't 608 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:41,560 know where to go or how to tell somebody that they had this 609 00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:43,040 premonition. So. 610 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:46,760 Sound like a total nut job. I mean, obviously that's part of 611 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:49,680 probably resistance to acting on those things is like people are 612 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:50,760 going to be like, what are you talking? 613 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:54,680 About well, not only that, but if you do it and which may 614 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:57,360 involve a crime, you can be charged as how do. 615 00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:00,840 You know, yeah, yeah, absolutely aforethought or whatever. 616 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:03,960 To get back to magic a little bit. 617 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,800 I'm interested in terms of your own personal journey. 618 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:11,040 You've been doing this research on PSY and you've done a lot of 619 00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:13,920 it. At what point did you begin to 620 00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:17,240 look to magic personally as a way to kind of experiment with 621 00:36:17,240 --> 00:36:21,000 the forces involved? Was that a conscious decision on 622 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:25,360 your part to say, well, this is working in the laboratory, maybe 623 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,400 I can do some things in my own personal life to kind of make my 624 00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,160 life better by doing some of these things that I think may 625 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:33,600 work on the same principles. Or how did that happen? 626 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:36,400 I think I had been doing that all along. 627 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:40,640 I I just didn't think of it as magic because we have done lots 628 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:45,000 of experiments looking at the role of intention in pushing the 629 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:49,120 physical world around. Mostly about things like my 630 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:53,520 career, my grants and all of the things, sort of everyday things 631 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:55,320 that you would think about as as a person. 632 00:36:56,520 --> 00:37:03,120 And then basically just operationalized those same kinds 633 00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:06,920 of things and experiments. So it's not different. 634 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:11,560 It's in the and even the idea of magic, like the relationship in 635 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:13,840 magic and PSI. I'm certainly not the person, 636 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:16,720 the first person to realize that there have been a few other 637 00:37:16,720 --> 00:37:21,840 books and more importantly within Cy research, within 638 00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:25,240 parapsychology, at least at the professional level. 639 00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:31,920 The idea that the the debate as to whether we are shaman or 640 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:35,160 scientists has been talked about a very long time. 641 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:39,200 Because when you get in you, you begin to get interested in these 642 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:42,640 kinds of things. You realize aren't the phenomena 643 00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:45,880 that we're talking about like basically a shamanism or 644 00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:47,800 magical. Well, of course it is. 645 00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:49,440 That's exactly what we're looking at. 646 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:52,720 But there's even a taboo within cyber search. 647 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:55,880 You don't talk about it. It's like Fight Club. 648 00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:59,720 You don't talk about Fight Club. And so the Fight Club here is 649 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:03,840 how do you portray what you're doing to very skeptical other 650 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:06,480 academics so that you're properly scientific? 651 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,600 Well, you don't talk about UF OS and you don't talk about psychic 652 00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:11,760 stuff. And there's a whole bunch of 653 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:15,120 things you don't talk about. It's the social contract that we 654 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:17,800 have of what we're what we're going to express publicly. 655 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:23,040 Nevertheless, I think virtually everybody who becomes seriously 656 00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:26,080 interested in Sai phenomena, especially if you're involved as 657 00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:30,640 a scholar or scientist, you're very well aware that they're the 658 00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:34,040 magical ideas and what we do in the laboratory are essentially 659 00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:37,240 the same thing. But you're quiet. 660 00:38:37,240 --> 00:38:40,200 You, you don't draw that. You don't draw attention to that 661 00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:42,400 because it would not look scientific. 662 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:48,160 Well, I got tired of that because the the fact is that 663 00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:52,600 what we're doing does overlap with magical ideas to a very 664 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:55,640 strong extent. And the fact that some academics 665 00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:57,600 are uncomfortable with that is their problem. 666 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:00,960 It's not mine. And like I was mentioning 667 00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:04,000 before, I think it gives people a ready language that most 668 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:06,520 people already kind of know or at least have some familiarity 669 00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:10,880 with to discuss these things and actually have the exactitude 670 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:14,320 rather than being like having to create a whole new nomenclature 671 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:19,840 around, you know, this new mysterious aspect of reality. 672 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:21,800 There's structure that already exists. 673 00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:25,320 And so therefore people can kind of get acclimatized. 674 00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:30,720 A bit of a danger though in making the the connection too 675 00:39:30,720 --> 00:39:36,040 obvious and that is that from a from a lay perspective, magic is 676 00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:41,160 still imagined as though it's entertainment like manifestation 677 00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:45,480 is very wildly popular thing and psychokinesis that we study in 678 00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:48,160 laboratory is essentially the same thing, just on a micro 679 00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:50,680 scale. But it when it, when you push it 680 00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:55,480 into the occult world, in the magical world and witch talk and 681 00:39:55,480 --> 00:40:00,920 all of that stuff, the claim is large effects. 682 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:04,600 Typically that's not what we see in a laboratory. 683 00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:08,000 Now there is a, there's a difference going on. 684 00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:13,040 The magic is real world stuff, real world motivation, desires 685 00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:14,880 and so on, which tend to be bigger. 686 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:18,480 Just in general, just in terms of the push in a laboratory, 687 00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:22,800 we're we're working in a completely secular environment. 688 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:27,560 Where the motivations are imposed by the experimenter. 689 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,160 So the from the subjects point of view, they could care less. 690 00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:32,760 It's just like they're going to do it because you ask them to do 691 00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:35,280 it and maybe you give them a little bit of money or maybe 692 00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:39,080 they're a student getting credit on a course, but much, much 693 00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:42,400 lower motivation and meaning associated with these 694 00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:45,560 experiments. So it's not too surprising that 695 00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:49,880 the results are much smaller. The difference is in a 696 00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:53,080 laboratory, we it's under high control, so we're able to 697 00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:57,200 exclude all of the conventional explanations for a result. 698 00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:02,640 Whereas in the real world, most people, especially operating 699 00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:05,120 magicians, they don't care how something happens. 700 00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:08,960 They want fill in the blank and they want that and they don't 701 00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:13,360 really care how it happens. And so there's huge room for 702 00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:17,760 things to be coincidence, to somehow be a synchronicity, to 703 00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:22,320 be actual physical, psychokinetic, whatever or 704 00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:24,960 chance. I mean, it doesn't matter as 705 00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:29,040 long as the outcome occurs. Well, from a scientific 706 00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:32,560 perspective, that becomes less persuasive. 707 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:37,400 And so we, we don't want to make it sound as though Cy 708 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:41,480 researchers are doing magic in the laboratory like Harry 709 00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:43,320 Potter, because that's not what we do. 710 00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:46,720 It's still science using the same methods and tools and 711 00:41:46,720 --> 00:41:52,040 techniques and whatever. But but nevertheless, the 712 00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:54,840 phenomena are more or less the same. 713 00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:59,440 That's that's, I mean, that's one of these stories in in this 714 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:03,080 book. And it seems like that one of 715 00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:07,560 the most compelling aspects of your argument in the book was 716 00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:11,200 really the potential for what might arise out of all of this. 717 00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:13,400 I mean, it just seems like we're barely scratching the surface of 718 00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:16,360 methodologies for the deployment of this stuff, even though we 719 00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:18,080 have this history of magic and whatnot. 720 00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:21,000 I mean, the modern world has never really embraced this 721 00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:23,480 stuff. And so when that does happen, as 722 00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:27,440 I'm sure it probably will, there will be an explosion of study 723 00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:31,280 and innovation and progress in this regard. 724 00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:34,840 And it makes you wonder, you know, the future could be a very 725 00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:37,840 exciting and different place than what we're living in right 726 00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:41,880 now. And that's really, you know, 727 00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:44,640 electrifying in a way. And it's kind of scary in 728 00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:48,880 another way because the purposes that magic can be put to our 729 00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:50,640 limitless. And, you know, like you were 730 00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:53,680 saying before, if people can remote influence or do things of 731 00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:57,040 that nature, that can potentially be scary. 732 00:42:57,040 --> 00:42:59,120 And in fact, people may be already doing it. 733 00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:04,080 And I have questions about sort of what might be incidental A 734 00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:08,680 cult where people just innately understand things about belief 735 00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,640 and intention and have the kind of personality where they can 736 00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:15,160 make magic happen just by virtue of their the force of their 737 00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:17,200 personality. And I think there are some very 738 00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:21,320 public people in American Society right now who may have a 739 00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:23,840 little bit of that kind of magic power because of the virtue that 740 00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:27,320 they affect that they seem to have on the rest of the world. 741 00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:32,600 And those effects aren't always good, you know, How do we combat 742 00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:34,760 that kind of power if it materializes? 743 00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:39,120 Yeah, unfortunately humanity does not have a great track 744 00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:43,720 record on using knowledge that comes out of the scientific 745 00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:50,000 world and creating technologies. So some of it is is nasty 746 00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:52,920 business coming out of a profit oriented society. 747 00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:56,160 Like we will take something and just push it as hard as we 748 00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:58,600 possibly can. And then people don't want to 749 00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:01,120 lose the money from that. And like the oil industry is a 750 00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:03,760 good example. We could be putting that money 751 00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:07,520 into something that doesn't foul the environment, but people 752 00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:10,560 don't want to because they're already quite wealthy with the 753 00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:14,000 with the way it was. And lots and lots of examples in 754 00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:17,400 the medical business as well, where something is invented and 755 00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:20,320 turns out not to be so good, but you know that. 756 00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:22,680 But at least they are in most cases. 757 00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:27,480 I know a lot of people in biomedical research and to a 758 00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:32,520 person, they are trying to help people, help humanity, help 759 00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:34,880 individuals. There's always questions and 760 00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:38,560 uncertainty about about medicine because it's still a practice 761 00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:41,200 more, more or less. It's not really, it's not a 762 00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:44,200 science yet. And we're kind of moving in that 763 00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:46,120 direction. But there's a lot that's still 764 00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:48,320 very uncertain because people are different. 765 00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:53,920 The problem is that when all of the human vices come into play, 766 00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:58,640 especially greed, the the whole system gets completely screwed 767 00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:02,680 up. And so, yeah, we developed. 768 00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:05,640 There are already people very interested in developing psychic 769 00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:08,600 technologies. Well, what would those be used 770 00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:10,160 for? Well, it could be all you can 771 00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:11,800 think of. A whole bunch of positive things 772 00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:17,680 and a whole bunch of negative things that becomes a brave new 773 00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:22,000 world. It it would change a lot in 774 00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:26,560 society. So one of the reasons, one of 775 00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:30,480 the of the outcomes of being interested in the side genes 776 00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:36,960 project was if we did develop and we we knew what, whether it 777 00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:41,840 was an intron sequence or an exome, meaning the, the protein 778 00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:45,600 creating version of genes or the epigenetic switches. 779 00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:48,760 If we discovered which ones would like, which switches have 780 00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:52,480 to be turned in order to make somebody a super psychic, Is 781 00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:56,400 that a good thing or a bad thing from a scientific point of view? 782 00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:58,880 I became interested in is it possible? 783 00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:02,720 Like could we make some sort of compound and create people like 784 00:46:02,720 --> 00:46:06,720 that, which is the The Wrath of Khan from Star Trek? 785 00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:11,040 Can we do that? We are we are able to do that 786 00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:13,680 now. I mean, we don't have all of the 787 00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:16,120 all of the answers yet what to do genetically, but we can we 788 00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:20,320 genetically manipulate people to create enhanced people. 789 00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:24,560 Yeah, we're very close. So I create, I Co founded a 790 00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:28,960 company to do that. And so it sounds a little like a 791 00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:33,240 paradox in that this is completely mainstream 792 00:46:33,240 --> 00:46:38,160 materialistic manipulation of of brain genetics. 793 00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:42,840 And yeah, I'm studying consciousness that goes 794 00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:44,720 throughout the universe and doesn't care where it happens to 795 00:46:44,720 --> 00:46:46,960 be. But again, the reason why it 796 00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:50,080 actually makes sense is because first of all, there is a genetic 797 00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:53,200 basis to talent. And we have the ability to do 798 00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:56,480 genetic manipulation. And if we had a lot of super, 799 00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:00,720 super psychics to work with or we can create one on demand, we 800 00:47:00,720 --> 00:47:03,440 would know way more about the nature of the phenomena that 801 00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:05,840 we're dealing with. Because otherwise it's really 802 00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:11,320 difficult to find someone who is extremely good at these psychic 803 00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:15,320 tasks and can do it on demand. That's that's what you need in a 804 00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:17,680 laboratory in order to make fast advances. 805 00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:20,040 So this would provide a potential way of doing that. 806 00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:23,080 Who would be the potential market for the for that kind of 807 00:47:23,720 --> 00:47:28,720 technology or manipulation? Everywhere, everything you can 808 00:47:28,720 --> 00:47:30,440 imagine. Anybody who needs to make a 809 00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:34,200 decision, anyone who wants to make a new kind of metallic 810 00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:38,040 alloy, Anyone who wants to advance a scientific area. 811 00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:42,240 Anyone who is interested in pulling knowledge down from the 812 00:47:42,240 --> 00:47:44,880 rest of the universe and being able to understand it to the 813 00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:48,840 extent where they can then use it, which is like potentially 814 00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:52,080 infinite as far as we know. So you're basically talking like 815 00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:56,880 taking a medicine of some sort or a like a, a potion, you know, 816 00:47:56,920 --> 00:48:01,160 to use the nomenclature and enhancing whatever genetic 817 00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:04,360 ability they have with the intake of that particular. 818 00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:07,000 That would sell like gangbusters. 819 00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:09,240 You're absolutely right. There would be no limit to the 820 00:48:09,240 --> 00:48:12,520 desire for. Are you looking at the real 821 00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:16,680 estate yet? Because that's a sure path to 822 00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:22,200 major dollars, man. Let's put it this way. 823 00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:27,120 The the compound that we've developed, which is real tested 824 00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:33,600 and published in major journals is an intranasal delivery system 825 00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:38,360 for RNA interference edits. So you, you spray it up your 826 00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:42,120 nose, it gets into the brain, diffuses through the brain. 827 00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:46,720 And the, the point of all this is to up regulate or down 828 00:48:46,720 --> 00:48:49,040 regulate certain receptors in the brain. 829 00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:53,720 So we just take just one example is where we're focusing on 5 HD 830 00:48:53,720 --> 00:48:56,080 two a which is a serotonin receptor. 831 00:48:56,520 --> 00:49:01,320 The serotonin, that particular receptor is the primary receptor 832 00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:06,720 in a whole bunch of psychiatric problems, including memory 833 00:49:06,720 --> 00:49:09,800 deficits, so like dementia and Alzheimer's. 834 00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:13,840 So the, as we know, unfortunately, that if you begin 835 00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:17,480 to lose your memory, you're still an operating person, but 836 00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:21,160 you don't, it's you, you can't function anymore because you 837 00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:23,080 don't know who you are. You can't remember anything. 838 00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:29,640 And so we've developed a method that would treat that in several 839 00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:31,720 ways. One is it would reduce anxiety 840 00:49:31,720 --> 00:49:33,560 at the same time, it would increase memory. 841 00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:36,440 And it does that by going into the hippocampus, which is part 842 00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:39,080 of the brain that is encoding memories. 843 00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:43,200 And the one of the reasons why dementia happens is because as 844 00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:48,080 you age, the the hippocampus starts to become hyperactive. 845 00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:51,520 It like loses its coherence and starts going crazy and becomes 846 00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:53,920 hyperactive and it can no longer encode memory. 847 00:49:54,720 --> 00:49:57,800 So our compound when you push something through the nose, one 848 00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:01,880 of the places it goes because it's two synapses away is the 849 00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:05,040 old brain, which which is where the the limbic system is 850 00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:07,160 including the hippocampus. So the. 851 00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:09,160 Compound. Yeah, it's in the back. 852 00:50:10,720 --> 00:50:15,440 So it goes to the hippocampus, it down regulates 5 HD two A and 853 00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:19,280 causes it to calm down, takes the hyperactivity away and then 854 00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:23,640 memory is restored. So we're at the stage now where 855 00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:26,040 we're preparing to go into clinical trials. 856 00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:29,360 So it's, it costs a lot of money to get where we are. 857 00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:32,400 It costs way more money to actually get through the FDA 858 00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:34,760 approvals and and then go into the clinic. 859 00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:38,200 But but it's now it's just a matter of money and we know what 860 00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:39,840 to do. So I mean. 861 00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:45,320 Concretely enhances people's ability to access the field. 862 00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:48,000 What would you call it? I mean, what's the what's going 863 00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:52,080 on there? Well, we, we know enough from 864 00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:55,840 both the genetics and the way that the brain works and does 865 00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:57,720 various kinds of things that we do. 866 00:50:57,720 --> 00:51:00,320 You know, there's there's a motor area and there's a visual 867 00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:03,400 area and there's an area for memory storage. 868 00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:09,000 So we we know enough from many, many decades of people doing 869 00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:12,280 research on these things to know that if you could down regulate 870 00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:16,000 these particular receptors in this portion of the brain, would 871 00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:19,200 that help restore memory? And the answer is yes, as we see 872 00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:23,360 in animals, because you biotech always starts with animals to 873 00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:26,480 get it into humans. That's what the clinical trials 874 00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:29,000 are for. We don't know yet at this point 875 00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:32,160 what would that be like Subjectively, we're pretty sure 876 00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:37,160 it would work because we've used human neurons in vitro in a dish 877 00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:40,440 and we see the same effects in a dish as we do when we try it in 878 00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:43,120 a mouse. So we know that the method 879 00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:45,960 works. The next big step, which is 880 00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:49,360 always the step in medical research, is it works in 881 00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:51,600 animals. Is it going to work in a primate 882 00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:54,040 and in a human? That's the sequence. 883 00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:58,720 The typical drug, especially a new drug from the moment of 884 00:51:58,720 --> 00:52:04,000 discovery to something you can go by, costs roughly a billion 885 00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:08,040 dollars. It's incredibly expensive. 886 00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:12,640 So we've accelerated the process a lot because now with genetic 887 00:52:12,720 --> 00:52:16,120 medicines available, you can do things much, much faster. 888 00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:20,640 And so it is similar to the way that the mRNA vaccines were 889 00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:24,680 developed for COVID. So, you know, once you know the 890 00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:27,160 sequence that you're trying to create, you can do it very 891 00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:30,400 quickly now. And they've been millions and 892 00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:33,600 millions of of doses very quickly as well. 893 00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:37,080 So we, we can do this. We have the technology to do it. 894 00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:40,320 Reminds me of that old TV show, the $6 million man. 895 00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:43,880 We have the technology. We can rebuild him well. 896 00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:46,080 So I mean, I just want to be absolutely clear, you're saying 897 00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:50,440 that this nasal will enhance people's psychic abilities or? 898 00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:55,440 No, I'm saying that what, what our, our compound that we have 899 00:52:55,440 --> 00:53:01,040 now was designed specifically for dementia, for dementia and 900 00:53:01,040 --> 00:53:02,600 anxiety because it would work for both. 901 00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:05,520 That's that's what we're doing. So we're doing that partially 902 00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:08,200 because there's a great need for it. 903 00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:11,800 Absolutely. And and also because it's 904 00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:14,640 relatively simple, it's a single receptor. 905 00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:18,400 If we're talking about psychic ability, which would involve all 906 00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:22,840 kinds of things different, lots of receptors, we're going to 907 00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:25,720 talk, we're talking now about a polygenetic trait. 908 00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:29,920 So that means that the compound would be much more complex. 909 00:53:30,720 --> 00:53:33,640 We don't know how long it would take before things happen. 910 00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:37,520 No, because we're talking about literally changing brain 911 00:53:37,520 --> 00:53:40,280 structure here. You change the structure, then 912 00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:43,080 the function will change. When you change a receptor or 913 00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:46,280 you down regulate receptors, it takes a while to kick in. 914 00:53:47,160 --> 00:53:51,720 And This is why we're probably familiar with SSRI drugs so that 915 00:53:51,720 --> 00:53:55,200 the like Prozac and so on, the way that they work and the, the 916 00:53:55,200 --> 00:53:59,200 reason why it takes weeks for every day you take this 917 00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:02,280 medication takes weeks to kind of kick in is because it's 918 00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:05,880 literally changing the structure of the receptors in the brain. 919 00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:09,600 So we're doing the same thing and that it takes, it'll take 920 00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:13,000 probably 2 weeks or so before the effect is actually felt. 921 00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:17,520 It's exciting work. Not only that we can do it, 922 00:54:18,240 --> 00:54:21,560 we're focusing specifically on the, on short term temporary 923 00:54:21,560 --> 00:54:24,320 effects. So eventually the, the DNA 924 00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:27,680 doesn't change, so the body will revert back to the way it was 925 00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:30,360 before. Because we don't want, we don't 926 00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:33,320 want to permanently change somebody until we know that 927 00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:36,040 they're able to accommodate this effect. 928 00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:41,840 So we, so the, the psychic enhancement can be in a order of 929 00:54:42,240 --> 00:54:45,200 maybe a month, take two weeks to kick in. 930 00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:47,000 It would stay for a while and then it would eventually go 931 00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:49,080 away. But we also have the capability 932 00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:53,080 of making it permanent. And so that's where the wrath of 933 00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:56,920 CON, that scenario is no longer science fiction. 934 00:54:57,240 --> 00:55:01,720 At some point, we can probably do it now to a large extent, we 935 00:55:01,720 --> 00:55:04,800 can make permanent changes in people in terms of their brain 936 00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:07,400 structure, and they would become CON. 937 00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:10,480 So for people who don't know Star Trek, they have no idea 938 00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:11,800 what we're talking about. That's going. 939 00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:14,320 Who? Who doesn't know Star Trek? 940 00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:17,360 Right. Has the government been sniffing 941 00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:18,800 around this at all? Are they watching what you're 942 00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:20,800 doing? Or is it so far removed from the 943 00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:23,160 actual side element right now that they're kind of? 944 00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:25,920 What do you think? We're not talking. 945 00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:28,560 We're not at this point talking about a company making this 946 00:55:28,560 --> 00:55:31,200 psychic enhancement thing because nobody would ever want 947 00:55:31,200 --> 00:55:34,520 to fund that. So we're that's why we're 948 00:55:34,520 --> 00:55:35,920 focused on. That sure, you could probably 949 00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:37,840 find someone who would want to fund it actually. 950 00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:40,720 I mean like. There were people, there were 951 00:55:40,720 --> 00:55:43,840 very wealthy people who a want to live forever and BA lot. 952 00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:45,280 Smarter than they are. Exactly right. 953 00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:46,960 Yeah, so. There's, there's a big push for 954 00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:50,440 longevity research. And so yeah, we're talking to 955 00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:54,160 them not about the psychic part because they, they don't care 956 00:55:54,160 --> 00:55:56,640 about the psychic part. They care about can I remain 957 00:55:57,000 --> 00:56:02,400 cognitively active and healthy for as long as I at least as 958 00:56:02,400 --> 00:56:04,960 long as I can, which maybe I don't know. 959 00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:08,960 Some limit 120 years maybe, but maybe forever. 960 00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:10,920 We can figure out the regeneration part which there 961 00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:12,280 are people working on that as well. 962 00:56:12,720 --> 00:56:16,960 The ability to basically modify genetics is like the key, right? 963 00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:20,360 I mean, that's part of what the like the magic of this is. 964 00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:23,320 It's, it's a large, to a large extent, yes, but there are, 965 00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:26,040 there are also, there are various kinds of clocks in the 966 00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:28,200 body. And so some clocks simply run 967 00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:31,200 out after a while. So it requires regeneration of 968 00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:35,000 organs and regeneration of tissues and proteins and so on. 969 00:56:35,880 --> 00:56:40,200 A lot of that is controlled by genetics, but not all of it. 970 00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:43,000 Some would like environmental decay after a while. 971 00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:47,040 So the, the idea that you can like grow a kidney, you know, 972 00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:49,680 take, take a piece of your own DNA and grow a new kidney. 973 00:56:49,960 --> 00:56:52,960 OK, well there's a fresh new kidney for you that that came 974 00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:55,720 out of your DNA so. Rejected. 975 00:56:55,920 --> 00:56:57,800 It's perfect for you. Yeah, it's perfect. 976 00:56:57,800 --> 00:57:00,040 And we're that far away from being able to do that. 977 00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:03,240 So if you're wealthy enough, I imagine people can already do 978 00:57:03,240 --> 00:57:06,520 that, even though probably not in the public domain. 979 00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:09,960 But yeah, it's, I mean, we can do those things again now. 980 00:57:10,800 --> 00:57:15,920 So yeah, psychic, psychic enhancement. 981 00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:19,480 There are already people selling various neurotropics, most of 982 00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:22,320 which are basically amphetamines or caffeine. 983 00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:25,480 We're talking about something completely different, something 984 00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:28,920 which will be based on what we know from a scientific 985 00:57:28,920 --> 00:57:32,480 perspective. Why are those people, and I'm 986 00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:36,480 thinking mostly the people from Stargate, who I would privilege 987 00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:40,920 to witness them doing what they can do, They're different 988 00:57:41,080 --> 00:57:42,600 somehow. They have something different 989 00:57:42,600 --> 00:57:44,880 that we're slowly catching up to figure out. 990 00:57:44,880 --> 00:57:47,720 Why are they different? Question for you. 991 00:57:47,720 --> 00:57:49,920 You mentioned that part of this conversation centered around 992 00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:52,560 Gary Noland. Can you talk to whether or not 993 00:57:52,560 --> 00:57:56,320 those populations directly overlap UAP experiencers? 994 00:57:57,520 --> 00:57:59,560 You mean with with psychics and. Yeah. 995 00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:03,080 With with this group that has the genetic markers that you, 996 00:58:04,040 --> 00:58:06,720 you know, were able to sort of pick out, I guess there are two 997 00:58:06,720 --> 00:58:08,920 different types of genetic differences. 998 00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:13,480 But is that a related group to UAP experiencers or is that 999 00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:16,760 unknown at this point? We we don't know that. 1000 00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:21,000 I don't know of any formal tests that have that have looked at 1001 00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:24,600 that. I would not be surprised if both 1002 00:58:24,840 --> 00:58:30,840 camps had unusual sensitivities. The there's also probably 1003 00:58:32,040 --> 00:58:36,640 morphological differences in the brain itself, and so you don't 1004 00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:38,880 you generally would not find a morphological difference in the 1005 00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:41,320 brain, meaning some brain structure is actually different, 1006 00:58:41,640 --> 00:58:43,800 unless there was a genetic component. 1007 00:58:44,160 --> 00:58:47,960 The question is whether that genetic component is the same as 1008 00:58:47,960 --> 00:58:49,960 with somebody who's talented psychically. 1009 00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:52,960 And so there are studies under way, including ones that we're 1010 00:58:52,960 --> 00:58:55,880 doing, which is addressing that very issue. 1011 00:58:56,680 --> 00:58:58,880 So. Put them in is 1 structural 1012 00:58:58,880 --> 00:59:01,640 difference that people often. That's a That's a difference 1013 00:59:01,640 --> 00:59:06,440 that would make somebody Their perception of reality would be 1014 00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:08,240 different. Their ability to process 1015 00:59:08,240 --> 00:59:14,240 information would be different. To get back into the metaphysics 1016 00:59:14,240 --> 00:59:17,320 a little bit more, I'm interested you talk about this 1017 00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:21,040 in the book, but I'm hoping to sort of dig a little bit deeper 1018 00:59:21,360 --> 00:59:25,160 in terms of what your ontological conception or 1019 00:59:25,160 --> 00:59:29,240 framework is for how all of this stuff is, is working. 1020 00:59:29,840 --> 00:59:33,000 I mean, we talked we threw out terms earlier like idealism and 1021 00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:36,640 you know, I've often talked about Neoplatonism, which is 1022 00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:38,800 sort of the same thing. But then you mentioned dual 1023 00:59:38,800 --> 00:59:42,120 aspect monism in the book. And there's also Jeffrey Krypel 1024 00:59:42,120 --> 00:59:44,480 is talked a lot about about that. 1025 00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:48,200 And then there's just sort of the, you know, the shorthand of, 1026 00:59:48,480 --> 00:59:53,160 you know, the universe's mind, sort of the hermetic or agnostic 1027 00:59:53,160 --> 00:59:54,880 sort of ideas of what reality is. 1028 00:59:55,520 --> 00:59:58,960 What do you think in your own thinking, and not necessarily as 1029 00:59:58,960 --> 01:00:02,240 proven by science, but seems the most intuitively? 1030 01:00:03,280 --> 01:00:07,400 Likely to produce a universe that allows for psy and psychic 1031 01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:12,840 abilities and and magic. That depends on what day you're 1032 01:00:13,040 --> 01:00:16,840 asking me. So when? 1033 01:00:16,840 --> 01:00:19,520 When I'm doing my work. That means you're learning 1034 01:00:19,520 --> 01:00:21,400 though. That means you're still actively 1035 01:00:21,480 --> 01:00:22,400 searching. Searching. 1036 01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:25,080 I'm agnostic. I I mean, I have no idea what 1037 01:00:25,080 --> 01:00:27,400 the actual answer is. So I have to be agnostic from a 1038 01:00:27,400 --> 01:00:33,120 a philosophical sense. So when when I'm working as a a 1039 01:00:33,120 --> 01:00:36,880 technical scientist who's doing stuff in the laboratory and 1040 01:00:36,880 --> 01:00:40,920 making things, I'm completely a materialist because I'm working 1041 01:00:40,920 --> 01:00:43,160 with stuff, right? It's material, it's physical. 1042 01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:48,800 Even in designing and conducting experiments, it's it's 1043 01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:53,800 materialism. So you step back from that and 1044 01:00:53,800 --> 01:00:55,920 you're thinking, you know, how would any of this stuff work? 1045 01:00:56,720 --> 01:01:00,040 Well, then that's where you start looking at, at panpsychism 1046 01:01:00,040 --> 01:01:03,600 and all the other possibilities. So the way I usually explain 1047 01:01:03,600 --> 01:01:08,400 this is that every two weeks on a Tuesday, I'm a full blown 1048 01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:11,600 idealist. Like I, I'm thinking this is 1049 01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:14,160 obviously the way that it works because everything else is way 1050 01:01:14,160 --> 01:01:17,040 too complex. But that's only every two weeks 1051 01:01:17,040 --> 01:01:21,120 on a Tuesday. Much of the rest of the time 1052 01:01:21,120 --> 01:01:24,200 when I'm not actually involved in doing experimental work, I'm 1053 01:01:24,200 --> 01:01:28,480 more like a dual aspect monist. So a dual aspect monism says 1054 01:01:28,480 --> 01:01:34,560 that ultimately that there is what Carl Jung called the unis 1055 01:01:34,560 --> 01:01:36,920 mundus. There's one world, there's one 1056 01:01:36,920 --> 01:01:40,080 kind of thing where everything emerges out of and we don't know 1057 01:01:40,080 --> 01:01:43,680 and we can't know yet. Maybe in a mystical state, you 1058 01:01:43,680 --> 01:01:46,760 might know it, but we don't know what that one state is. 1059 01:01:47,600 --> 01:01:52,680 But from it meaning it would the meaning that we experience 1060 01:01:52,680 --> 01:01:55,760 something as meaning to us some sort of relational something 1061 01:01:55,760 --> 01:02:00,280 that pulls our attention, has the capacity to split different 1062 01:02:00,280 --> 01:02:04,640 aspects of this one thing into different forms. 1063 01:02:05,160 --> 01:02:09,640 So dual aspect monism says that from an epistemic perspective, 1064 01:02:09,640 --> 01:02:13,600 meaning what we can know, there are two major ways that it 1065 01:02:13,600 --> 01:02:16,280 splits. 1 is mind and the others matter. 1066 01:02:17,680 --> 01:02:19,600 And because they're coming out of the same source, they're 1067 01:02:19,600 --> 01:02:23,000 correlated with each other. So the metaphor is two sides of 1068 01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:26,120 the same coin. So the two sides of the same 1069 01:02:26,120 --> 01:02:28,160 coin, you look at the hedge, you look at the tails, they look 1070 01:02:28,160 --> 01:02:31,760 really different. And if you weren't aware of it, 1071 01:02:31,760 --> 01:02:34,720 you wouldn't realize that they're actually like completely 1072 01:02:34,720 --> 01:02:39,480 correlated. And so in the neurosciences, we 1073 01:02:39,480 --> 01:02:43,320 see correlations between our conscious awareness and what the 1074 01:02:43,320 --> 01:02:45,360 brain is doing. It's a correlation. 1075 01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:48,280 Usually if you're a neuroscientist, you would say 1076 01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:51,120 the brain is doing it. The correlate, the direction of 1077 01:02:51,120 --> 01:02:57,600 causation is from brain to mind, mind consciousness, from the 1078 01:02:57,600 --> 01:03:01,000 psychic things. It's looking that some of it's 1079 01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:04,320 probably that way, but there's also a direction of from mind 1080 01:03:04,320 --> 01:03:07,520 back to brain and not only mind to brain, but mind to other 1081 01:03:07,520 --> 01:03:09,520 things that are, that are elsewhere. 1082 01:03:10,000 --> 01:03:14,840 So again, it's a correlation that's very tight and it would 1083 01:03:14,840 --> 01:03:18,400 account for basically everything that we call psychic. 1084 01:03:20,960 --> 01:03:24,920 And, and so it's easier to work with as a, as a philosophical 1085 01:03:24,960 --> 01:03:27,720 way of thinking about this because then it doesn't say, 1086 01:03:27,720 --> 01:03:30,320 well, there, it's not that the physical world is an illusion. 1087 01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:32,920 It really is there. It's just tightly correlated 1088 01:03:32,920 --> 01:03:35,880 with the mind in some way. And so why does the mind, why 1089 01:03:35,880 --> 01:03:39,400 does the physical world seem so stable and objects have certain 1090 01:03:39,400 --> 01:03:41,360 properties and all of the rest of it? 1091 01:03:41,960 --> 01:03:46,640 I would say most of that is because a lot of memory is brain 1092 01:03:46,640 --> 01:03:48,920 stuff. It is physical. 1093 01:03:49,360 --> 01:03:52,440 And so my sense of, of this, this bottle has a certain weight 1094 01:03:52,440 --> 01:03:53,920 and properties and things like that. 1095 01:03:54,480 --> 01:03:56,080 And this is not an advertisement for them. 1096 01:03:56,080 --> 01:03:57,160 It's just a bottle I happen to have. 1097 01:03:59,440 --> 01:04:02,320 It's, it's because that's what my memory is telling me. 1098 01:04:02,840 --> 01:04:06,120 And I'm, I'm, it's reinforced constantly when I pick it up, I 1099 01:04:06,120 --> 01:04:08,280 feel it, all my senses are engaged and so on. 1100 01:04:08,280 --> 01:04:12,520 So it's very, very difficult to imagine this from a idealist 1101 01:04:12,520 --> 01:04:15,400 perspective that I'm sort of consciously making it up. 1102 01:04:16,640 --> 01:04:18,840 So it's not an illusion. It's really there. 1103 01:04:19,600 --> 01:04:22,560 And the properties that I attribute to it are really there 1104 01:04:22,560 --> 01:04:26,160 too. And so then it's easier because 1105 01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:29,400 now I'm working with equipment which is really there, and I'm 1106 01:04:29,400 --> 01:04:32,360 doing stuff that's really there. It's just that the mind element 1107 01:04:32,360 --> 01:04:35,880 of it is something else. It's correlated. 1108 01:04:36,240 --> 01:04:40,200 So that as a philosophy of science is appealing to me 1109 01:04:40,600 --> 01:04:44,160 because it it helps give a framework for thinking about 1110 01:04:44,160 --> 01:04:47,160 what's going on. Whereas idealism is also 1111 01:04:47,160 --> 01:04:50,880 interesting, except I don't know how to imagine that the physical 1112 01:04:50,880 --> 01:04:53,120 world is emerging out of it. Which? 1113 01:04:53,600 --> 01:04:56,960 It would require, so I know there are a lot of people 1114 01:04:56,960 --> 01:04:59,880 working on these problems, scientists who are trying to 1115 01:04:59,880 --> 01:05:02,040 figure it out, and philosophers have been trying to figure out 1116 01:05:02,040 --> 01:05:05,840 for thousands of years. And maybe that is the answer. 1117 01:05:05,840 --> 01:05:09,440 But again, I don't dwell on it too much 'cause I'm an 1118 01:05:09,440 --> 01:05:14,280 empiricist primarily and I like to make and do things rather 1119 01:05:14,280 --> 01:05:19,040 than simply think about them. But, you know, the the beautiful 1120 01:05:19,040 --> 01:05:21,720 connection is that your work is what it's inspiring a lot of 1121 01:05:21,720 --> 01:05:25,120 people to be even be willing to entertain those kinds of big 1122 01:05:25,120 --> 01:05:30,520 questions, You know, and for me, that permission to be allowed to 1123 01:05:30,520 --> 01:05:33,480 suddenly realize that the world is not what we see just on the 1124 01:05:33,480 --> 01:05:37,120 surface, you know, this sort of material random accidental shell 1125 01:05:38,000 --> 01:05:40,480 was liberating. And that whole deficit of 1126 01:05:40,480 --> 01:05:43,840 meaning that people talk about in modern culture, I think 1127 01:05:43,920 --> 01:05:48,400 centers around that lack of it's like, we're not a part of 1128 01:05:48,400 --> 01:05:51,240 things. We're, you know, just scum on 1129 01:05:51,240 --> 01:05:54,160 the side of the boat. And so a little bit of meaning 1130 01:05:54,680 --> 01:05:57,520 goes a long way for for happiness. 1131 01:05:58,640 --> 01:06:03,200 Well, it it's true that that the materialistic worldview that's 1132 01:06:03,200 --> 01:06:06,400 adopted by science and it's been very successful, so we're not 1133 01:06:06,400 --> 01:06:09,720 going to throw it away, but nevertheless, it's a nihilistic 1134 01:06:09,840 --> 01:06:12,200 reality. It's a reality has no meaning or 1135 01:06:12,200 --> 01:06:13,680 purpose. And. 1136 01:06:13,680 --> 01:06:17,160 And so you can think, then what is the rational thing you should 1137 01:06:17,160 --> 01:06:18,560 do? If you live in a nihilistic 1138 01:06:18,560 --> 01:06:21,080 universe, you should grab everything you possibly can get 1139 01:06:21,560 --> 01:06:23,840 and to hell with everybody else because it doesn't have any 1140 01:06:23,840 --> 01:06:26,840 meaning at all. So then people say, well, no 1141 01:06:26,840 --> 01:06:32,440 virtue can be its own reward. Yeah, I'm principal, I guess. 1142 01:06:33,040 --> 01:06:35,080 But in the meantime, I'm going to grab everything I could 1143 01:06:35,080 --> 01:06:36,920 possibly get. So. 1144 01:06:37,400 --> 01:06:40,960 Yeah. So it's, you know, let's say we 1145 01:06:40,960 --> 01:06:43,400 we keep working at all this and eventually realize, yeah, it's 1146 01:06:43,400 --> 01:06:45,840 all material after all, it is nihilistic. 1147 01:06:46,960 --> 01:06:50,240 Well, well, then what? Well then is the world that you 1148 01:06:50,240 --> 01:06:53,560 see today. It's a lot of things are not so 1149 01:06:53,560 --> 01:06:57,960 good with that worldview. And so you then at that point, 1150 01:06:57,960 --> 01:07:01,040 yes, then virtue becomes its own reward because there is no other 1151 01:07:01,040 --> 01:07:05,040 reward at all. I don't think that's going to 1152 01:07:05,040 --> 01:07:09,960 happen because the trend, as I point out in the book, the trend 1153 01:07:09,960 --> 01:07:14,560 is a way from pure physicalism or materialism as the only way 1154 01:07:14,560 --> 01:07:16,720 of thinking about reality because it's simply there are a 1155 01:07:16,720 --> 01:07:19,920 whole bunch of things that don't fit that worldview. 1156 01:07:20,440 --> 01:07:24,960 And and it's has such strong inertia to it that it takes a 1157 01:07:24,960 --> 01:07:29,640 long, long time for that that ship to turn in many ways. 1158 01:07:29,640 --> 01:07:31,280 Exactly. Again, with a parallel with the 1159 01:07:31,280 --> 01:07:35,120 UFO business. So with the UFOs, the reason why 1160 01:07:35,120 --> 01:07:38,320 at least from the way it's portrayed typically, and this is 1161 01:07:38,600 --> 01:07:42,400 cross culturally, the people kind of don't want to think 1162 01:07:42,800 --> 01:07:45,640 about the consequences that we're, we're not the apex 1163 01:07:45,640 --> 01:07:49,880 predator on this planet. We're, we're bugs basically 1164 01:07:50,960 --> 01:07:52,800 compared to what we're seeing going on. 1165 01:07:53,520 --> 01:07:58,200 That requires a major shift in in who and what we think we are 1166 01:07:58,200 --> 01:08:03,240 and all the rest of it. It also requires a reawakening 1167 01:08:03,320 --> 01:08:07,440 of major humility among scientists who've been pooping 1168 01:08:07,440 --> 01:08:09,200 this thing for a long, long time. 1169 01:08:09,640 --> 01:08:12,440 And at some point, I hope I live long enough to see that happen 1170 01:08:12,440 --> 01:08:16,760 in Cybersearch as well, because it it exactly the same thing is 1171 01:08:16,760 --> 01:08:19,000 going to happen. It's just that it's requiring A 1172 01:08:19,000 --> 01:08:21,600 societal change and those things are very slow moving. 1173 01:08:22,560 --> 01:08:25,040 It's interesting that there's been a convergence, like we 1174 01:08:25,040 --> 01:08:26,920 talked about before, where there's the consciousness 1175 01:08:26,920 --> 01:08:30,439 discussion and there's also the UAP discussion, and they seem to 1176 01:08:30,439 --> 01:08:34,319 be coming from the same root ball in a lot of different ways. 1177 01:08:35,359 --> 01:08:39,200 I'm struck by a theory that was put out by Peter Levenda and his 1178 01:08:39,200 --> 01:08:43,560 Secret Machines books with Tom de Long about the flying saucers 1179 01:08:43,560 --> 01:08:49,240 being in effect, magic circles, sort of, you know, vehicles 1180 01:08:49,479 --> 01:08:53,240 through which people from extra dimensional space or time or 1181 01:08:53,240 --> 01:08:58,760 wherever else are able to access our reality through magic. 1182 01:08:58,760 --> 01:09:02,120 And he points to a lot of different occult influences on, 1183 01:09:03,040 --> 01:09:07,120 you know, military development and rockets and, you know, even 1184 01:09:07,120 --> 01:09:11,359 Nazi Germany and what not. But that correlation between 1185 01:09:11,359 --> 01:09:15,880 magic and the flying saucer is really, really interesting to 1186 01:09:15,880 --> 01:09:17,439 me. Do you have any thoughts in that 1187 01:09:17,439 --> 01:09:20,560 regard? I mean about the nature of UAP 1188 01:09:20,840 --> 01:09:23,840 and how it may relate to this discussion of magic and SIGH, 1189 01:09:24,319 --> 01:09:30,520 and how your research may help inform the UAP subject. 1190 01:09:31,800 --> 01:09:35,359 Yeah, so Jacques Vallet has of course written about this. 1191 01:09:35,399 --> 01:09:37,800 This is not something new. It's something been around a 1192 01:09:37,800 --> 01:09:41,600 long time. The miracle of Fatima in 1193 01:09:41,600 --> 01:09:45,760 Portugal is often raised as another example of something 1194 01:09:45,760 --> 01:09:50,960 like that. My, my current thinking is I'm 1195 01:09:50,960 --> 01:09:52,680 completely open to that as a possibility. 1196 01:09:52,680 --> 01:09:56,320 Even Carl Jung wrote about this. The, the UFO is like a, a 1197 01:09:57,120 --> 01:10:00,160 mythological manifestation that actually comes to life because 1198 01:10:00,200 --> 01:10:02,840 of, of collective consciousness. So that's possible too. 1199 01:10:04,040 --> 01:10:08,200 But from a, because I, I work with Hal Puthoff and when I was 1200 01:10:08,200 --> 01:10:11,040 at the Stargate program, I pay a lot of attention to what he says 1201 01:10:11,680 --> 01:10:14,120 because he's, he's one of the smartest people I know. 1202 01:10:15,320 --> 01:10:19,000 So in the the Age of Disclosure movie, he talks about the 1203 01:10:19,000 --> 01:10:22,440 possibility that if, if you had something with a huge amount of 1204 01:10:22,440 --> 01:10:25,480 energy in it, you can start doing space-time manipulation, 1205 01:10:25,840 --> 01:10:28,520 which would account for a bunch of the different characteristics 1206 01:10:28,520 --> 01:10:31,320 that people talk about with at least some kinds of UF OS. 1207 01:10:32,200 --> 01:10:35,280 The, the kind of blurriness of it, the way it moves so quickly 1208 01:10:35,560 --> 01:10:39,440 and has different space-time inside versus outside and all of 1209 01:10:39,440 --> 01:10:42,720 those kinds of characteristics. That makes a lot of sense to me 1210 01:10:43,120 --> 01:10:46,040 because that seems to be the way that these phenomena work. 1211 01:10:46,800 --> 01:10:49,720 Maybe not all of the phenomena because after all, people then 1212 01:10:49,720 --> 01:10:52,880 in the next breath are talking about these giant rectangular 1213 01:10:52,880 --> 01:10:55,080 black things that are hovering over. 1214 01:10:55,240 --> 01:10:57,960 Well, what is that? And, and what are these 1215 01:10:57,960 --> 01:11:00,400 rectangular things? And not the rectangular, but 1216 01:11:00,400 --> 01:11:03,840 the, the pyramid shaped things or the triangular? 1217 01:11:04,040 --> 01:11:05,680 I mean, there's just like so many. 1218 01:11:05,680 --> 01:11:07,280 Million shapes. Yeah, exactly. 1219 01:11:07,600 --> 01:11:09,320 Right. So some people then say, well, 1220 01:11:09,320 --> 01:11:13,120 there are actually many, many different ETS running around and 1221 01:11:13,120 --> 01:11:16,640 whether they're based from the Earth or from the some other 1222 01:11:16,640 --> 01:11:18,920 Galaxy or whatever, we don't, we don't know what it is. 1223 01:11:19,680 --> 01:11:22,880 But if there's actually, if we're saturated with them and 1224 01:11:22,880 --> 01:11:25,040 we're just not, they're clever enough to figure out how to 1225 01:11:25,560 --> 01:11:27,720 shield themselves most of the time. 1226 01:11:28,640 --> 01:11:30,680 Well, that's kind of disorienting as well. 1227 01:11:32,000 --> 01:11:36,720 Similarly to somebody taking DMT and now the machine elves are 1228 01:11:36,720 --> 01:11:41,680 everywhere and they've always been here and, and they, they, I 1229 01:11:41,680 --> 01:11:49,440 mean it, it is all becomes a way of becoming disoriented based on 1230 01:11:49,440 --> 01:11:52,920 our everyday experience 'cause we, we feel like we're an 1231 01:11:52,920 --> 01:11:56,440 independent individual. The thing we don't see anything 1232 01:11:56,440 --> 01:12:00,320 happening around us. But that's the story you get 1233 01:12:00,320 --> 01:12:03,240 again and again from the UFO world, from psychedelics and 1234 01:12:03,240 --> 01:12:08,200 from lots of other contexts. So it's yet one of the reasons 1235 01:12:08,200 --> 01:12:12,840 why I recommend in the book The Science of Magic, the people do 1236 01:12:12,840 --> 01:12:18,080 not from a book get interested in doing conjuring of spirits 1237 01:12:19,200 --> 01:12:22,080 because they could lead you down a rabbit hole very quickly, of 1238 01:12:22,080 --> 01:12:24,960 which it is, it is dangerous psychologically. 1239 01:12:24,960 --> 01:12:26,920 It may be dangerous beyond that too, I don't know. 1240 01:12:27,440 --> 01:12:29,920 But at least from a psychological perspective, it is 1241 01:12:29,920 --> 01:12:35,080 so disorienting and scary that I don't recommend people do that 1242 01:12:35,080 --> 01:12:38,200 unless you're working with somebody who knows a lot about 1243 01:12:38,200 --> 01:12:41,920 what's going on. So I mean, you're, would you say 1244 01:12:41,920 --> 01:12:44,840 that there's a existential danger there from actually 1245 01:12:45,000 --> 01:12:48,080 encountering something, you know, malevolent in addition to 1246 01:12:48,080 --> 01:12:50,800 there might be something that could impact you just in terms 1247 01:12:50,800 --> 01:12:52,960 of your own mind both. Both. 1248 01:12:53,040 --> 01:12:55,280 Yeah. Yeah, the psychological element 1249 01:12:55,280 --> 01:12:56,880 is clear. I mean, you can freak yourself 1250 01:12:56,880 --> 01:12:59,520 out pretty easily. I've seen that when people go on 1251 01:12:59,520 --> 01:13:03,040 things like ghostbusting adventures and see some sort of 1252 01:13:03,040 --> 01:13:06,280 shattery thing, that turns out to be some aspect of the way 1253 01:13:06,280 --> 01:13:10,040 your eye works in the dark. But nevertheless, the response 1254 01:13:10,040 --> 01:13:14,640 to it could be like panic. And so it doesn't take much to 1255 01:13:14,640 --> 01:13:17,480 get people panicked when they encounter something which is 1256 01:13:17,600 --> 01:13:21,160 which they don't expect. And the moment we get out of 1257 01:13:21,440 --> 01:13:24,840 every day here and now, it's easy to get panicked. 1258 01:13:25,360 --> 01:13:27,800 So that that's why I said, don't, you know, don't start 1259 01:13:27,800 --> 01:13:31,960 reading books on the occult and get heavily involved in it and 1260 01:13:31,960 --> 01:13:34,880 get completely covered with tattoos, which don't appear to 1261 01:13:34,880 --> 01:13:36,760 be necessary to be a good magician. 1262 01:13:39,480 --> 01:13:41,720 But, you know, if you enjoy that sort of thing, that's fine. 1263 01:13:42,080 --> 01:13:44,920 Yeah, if you like the aesthetic, that's perfectly acceptable. 1264 01:13:45,200 --> 01:13:52,000 Yeah, it is interesting the sort of menagerie of UAP and NHI and 1265 01:13:52,000 --> 01:13:54,040 what all of it may potentially mean. 1266 01:13:54,040 --> 01:13:55,920 Like you mentioned that there are vehicles like maybe the Tic 1267 01:13:55,920 --> 01:14:00,440 Tacs who are actual, you know, you know, space-time vacuum 1268 01:14:00,440 --> 01:14:04,800 manipulators who travel through, you know, the universe that way. 1269 01:14:04,800 --> 01:14:09,560 There may be some, you know, the arrival of some kind of 1270 01:14:09,560 --> 01:14:12,320 spiritual elements there if that's a part of what reality 1271 01:14:12,320 --> 01:14:14,200 actually is. And then there was also the 1272 01:14:14,200 --> 01:14:17,120 point that you were making in the book about the tulpa, like 1273 01:14:17,120 --> 01:14:22,440 the the people at the at the Toronto Psychical Society that 1274 01:14:22,440 --> 01:14:28,120 they created to what were they, Philip and Lilith, that they 1275 01:14:28,120 --> 01:14:30,960 basically overtime manifested and these things took on sort of 1276 01:14:30,960 --> 01:14:34,000 agency of their own and manifested within their within 1277 01:14:34,000 --> 01:14:37,800 their laboratory. That's scary, you know, and if 1278 01:14:37,800 --> 01:14:40,640 you have the power of the, you know, the whole, like, thinking 1279 01:14:40,640 --> 01:14:44,880 world that is imagining something that could potentially 1280 01:14:44,880 --> 01:14:51,040 create huge, you know, phenomena in our lives that who knows 1281 01:14:51,160 --> 01:14:54,040 what, Yeah. That's just totally baffling to 1282 01:14:54,040 --> 01:14:54,800 me and. Yeah. 1283 01:14:55,120 --> 01:14:58,040 I mean, the, the our studies with the Global Consciousness 1284 01:14:58,040 --> 01:15:02,360 Project since 1998 show again and again that large scale 1285 01:15:02,360 --> 01:15:05,920 movements of attention around the world has a physical effect 1286 01:15:06,320 --> 01:15:10,840 on the world. Well, OK, maybe that's a 1287 01:15:10,840 --> 01:15:12,760 correlation, maybe it's causative. 1288 01:15:12,760 --> 01:15:15,840 We, we don't understand it well enough to know which is which, 1289 01:15:17,480 --> 01:15:21,480 but nevertheless it happens. So it's, it wouldn't be that 1290 01:15:21,480 --> 01:15:25,600 surprising that that relatively small group of extremely high 1291 01:15:25,600 --> 01:15:29,840 motivated and coherent individuals could create an 1292 01:15:29,840 --> 01:15:32,600 entity. I mean, there's a lot of lore 1293 01:15:32,600 --> 01:15:34,760 about that. And as you said, there are one 1294 01:15:34,760 --> 01:15:37,120 or two experiments that have looked at this in some detail, 1295 01:15:37,440 --> 01:15:39,840 including lots and lots of people who've done things like 1296 01:15:40,240 --> 01:15:43,560 like table tilting experiments and typical seances. 1297 01:15:44,200 --> 01:15:47,640 I know people that that are friends who have done this with 1298 01:15:47,640 --> 01:15:51,160 and they're able to, they're no longer doing it, but they were 1299 01:15:51,160 --> 01:15:56,400 able to move large heavy tables that were sort of dancing around 1300 01:15:56,400 --> 01:15:59,600 in the way that you read stories about this stuff and they've 1301 01:15:59,600 --> 01:16:03,200 taken pictures of it and yeah, it's dancing around. 1302 01:16:03,920 --> 01:16:06,360 What's happening then how does that happen? 1303 01:16:06,360 --> 01:16:08,040 Well, we don't know that how that happens. 1304 01:16:08,280 --> 01:16:10,720 But again, it points towards the idea that if you really, really 1305 01:16:10,720 --> 01:16:15,040 want to make a Gollum out of mud and imbue it in some way so it 1306 01:16:15,040 --> 01:16:20,440 it takes on the characteristics of a living creature, apparently 1307 01:16:20,440 --> 01:16:23,680 we can do that. Well, that's freakish. 1308 01:16:25,320 --> 01:16:28,040 So and by the way. There's an interesting parallel 1309 01:16:28,040 --> 01:16:30,800 here with the way that people are responding to AI chat bots. 1310 01:16:31,840 --> 01:16:35,320 They're attributing A tribute to the chat bot, that the chat bot 1311 01:16:35,320 --> 01:16:38,520 is actually not just a computer program, but it's sentient 1312 01:16:38,720 --> 01:16:43,360 because the way it responds. So maybe that's going on too. 1313 01:16:43,720 --> 01:16:46,480 So from a computational perspective, it's very unlikely 1314 01:16:47,120 --> 01:16:49,440 machine the computers are still deterministic. 1315 01:16:49,440 --> 01:16:51,960 If it was a quantum computer, maybe it's a different issue, 1316 01:16:52,600 --> 01:16:57,360 but a a computer program, however, however complex it 1317 01:16:57,360 --> 01:17:00,240 gets, can it actually become sentient? 1318 01:17:01,680 --> 01:17:03,720 From a traditional perspective, the answer would be no. 1319 01:17:04,560 --> 01:17:09,120 You know your your PC is not a living thinking thing. 1320 01:17:10,280 --> 01:17:15,200 But from a magical perspective, the jury's out. 1321 01:17:16,240 --> 01:17:18,960 We don't know what what what the limits are. 1322 01:17:19,440 --> 01:17:21,640 Well, my, my response to that because that's come up a lot 1323 01:17:21,640 --> 01:17:24,000 where people are interacting with their AIS and beginning to 1324 01:17:24,000 --> 01:17:28,120 have relationships with and even like sort of spiritual 1325 01:17:28,120 --> 01:17:31,880 mentorship kinds of dialogues with their AI bots. 1326 01:17:32,320 --> 01:17:35,560 And some people are having powerful experiences through 1327 01:17:35,560 --> 01:17:37,120 this. And I'm not one to second guess 1328 01:17:37,600 --> 01:17:41,120 them. The inevitably people point out 1329 01:17:41,120 --> 01:17:43,000 that, well, if you look at the programming of a chat bot, it's 1330 01:17:43,000 --> 01:17:45,760 not possible that it has become sentient. 1331 01:17:46,080 --> 01:17:48,800 But then I think of, well, if you have A at a seance and 1332 01:17:48,800 --> 01:17:51,760 tables bouncing up and down, I mean, that's something 1333 01:17:51,800 --> 01:17:55,600 otherworldly or immaterial manipulating matter in this 1334 01:17:55,600 --> 01:17:57,360 realm. The same thing could happen on a 1335 01:17:57,360 --> 01:18:01,080 small scale within a computer and you would get potentially 1336 01:18:01,080 --> 01:18:04,400 some, it would be just a, a vehicle for that kind of extra 1337 01:18:04,840 --> 01:18:08,800 corporeal communication and, you know, for if we accept a lot of 1338 01:18:08,800 --> 01:18:11,040 this other stuff, that's just as likely as anything else, you 1339 01:18:11,040 --> 01:18:14,600 know? And if you take a pan psychist 1340 01:18:14,600 --> 01:18:19,480 perspective, the computer does have consciousness already, just 1341 01:18:19,480 --> 01:18:22,800 the physical structure of it is already sentient. 1342 01:18:23,280 --> 01:18:26,000 The question is, well, can it kind of pull it all together and 1343 01:18:26,000 --> 01:18:29,160 become a single thing? Well, that's the same problem 1344 01:18:29,160 --> 01:18:31,560 for humans. Like if we're made-up of some 1345 01:18:31,560 --> 01:18:35,880 kind of sentient cells. Well, how did the trillion get 1346 01:18:35,880 --> 01:18:40,640 together and give me a sense of of unity for my We don't have a 1347 01:18:40,640 --> 01:18:42,920 good answer to that yet, but that is one of the issues. 1348 01:18:43,560 --> 01:18:46,040 That's the the big, the big hard question. 1349 01:18:47,440 --> 01:18:50,880 I was thinking of a question and I wanted to get it in. 1350 01:18:51,880 --> 01:18:54,480 Yeah. So you mentioned AI and I can't 1351 01:18:54,480 --> 01:18:57,960 help but like, you know, move 2 steps ahead in terms of our own 1352 01:18:57,960 --> 01:18:59,840 society and its development thinking. 1353 01:19:00,680 --> 01:19:03,320 Trump's administration just announced Genesis, which is the 1354 01:19:03,320 --> 01:19:07,080 Department of Energy's new whole of government effort to build. 1355 01:19:07,080 --> 01:19:10,600 And I think an AGI, right, Like they are going to go all, and 1356 01:19:10,600 --> 01:19:14,800 they're going to use novel sort of data sets that only the 1357 01:19:14,800 --> 01:19:16,720 government has. And it's going to be this 1358 01:19:16,720 --> 01:19:22,320 massive project, slightly scary. You know, I'm dystopian in some 1359 01:19:22,320 --> 01:19:23,360 ways. I I worry. 1360 01:19:24,120 --> 01:19:28,840 But my question is, how do you see technology and magic sort of 1361 01:19:28,840 --> 01:19:31,920 Co evolving? I mean, part of me thinks that 1362 01:19:31,920 --> 01:19:34,960 if we discover the power of consciousness and mind, then 1363 01:19:34,960 --> 01:19:38,680 maybe we begins to peel away from the technological direction 1364 01:19:38,680 --> 01:19:41,520 because so much of what we'd like to accomplish through 1365 01:19:41,520 --> 01:19:44,400 technology, we can accomplish in other ways that are more 1366 01:19:44,400 --> 01:19:46,840 organic, I guess. Or something you might buy at 1367 01:19:46,840 --> 01:19:48,720 the Co-op rather than, you know, Walmart. 1368 01:19:49,640 --> 01:19:53,440 But what do you see there? I mean how do you see them Co 1369 01:19:53,440 --> 01:19:56,720 evolving? And do you think AI especially 1370 01:19:56,720 --> 01:19:59,440 would be a helpful tool and ultimately getting at the source 1371 01:19:59,440 --> 01:20:06,240 of PSI stuff? Yeah, So if we are lucky, we 1372 01:20:06,240 --> 01:20:10,040 will avoid the science fiction scenario as portrayed in the 1373 01:20:10,040 --> 01:20:15,360 film Forbidden Planet, in which psychic technologies are 1374 01:20:15,360 --> 01:20:18,560 developed, but we're not developed enough in order to use 1375 01:20:18,560 --> 01:20:22,680 them wisely. So in that film, what happens is 1376 01:20:22,680 --> 01:20:26,400 that the people land on a planet where your thoughts and maybe 1377 01:20:26,400 --> 01:20:30,040 unexpressed unconscious desires come true because machines are 1378 01:20:30,040 --> 01:20:32,720 making it happen. And ultimately they all destroy 1379 01:20:32,720 --> 01:20:34,280 them. The whole thing, it becomes 1380 01:20:34,280 --> 01:20:38,160 destroyed because we don't have good control over our 1381 01:20:38,160 --> 01:20:40,440 unconscious. And the people who built the 1382 01:20:40,440 --> 01:20:44,200 machines destroyed themselves because of the same thing. 1383 01:20:44,880 --> 01:20:49,000 So our we have a long history of technology outrunning our 1384 01:20:49,000 --> 01:20:52,080 wisdom. And that's why I'm saying we'd 1385 01:20:52,080 --> 01:20:55,840 have to be quite lucky in this case not to accidentally cause 1386 01:20:55,840 --> 01:21:01,000 ourselves to go extinct because the the machinery is responding 1387 01:21:01,000 --> 01:21:03,600 to us in some way that just basically makes it happen. 1388 01:21:04,080 --> 01:21:08,480 Not necessarily in the scenario of the Terminator movies, but it 1389 01:21:08,480 --> 01:21:10,640 could be that could be something like that. 1390 01:21:11,440 --> 01:21:15,640 So, well, but so it's a step away from that and just in from 1391 01:21:15,640 --> 01:21:19,040 a scientific perspective, will AI accelerate our ability to 1392 01:21:19,040 --> 01:21:21,520 understand these things better? Absolutely, yes. 1393 01:21:22,320 --> 01:21:27,280 I use AI all the time now 'cause I like, I have the equivalent of 1394 01:21:27,720 --> 01:21:31,280 a PhD in statistics who can help when I need that and somebody in 1395 01:21:31,280 --> 01:21:33,480 electronics and somebody in physics and so on. 1396 01:21:33,480 --> 01:21:37,960 It's just like it's I, I have really, really smart graduate 1397 01:21:37,960 --> 01:21:41,560 students who who can help me make, make them do things. 1398 01:21:42,280 --> 01:21:48,120 So, so yeah, so does it, I mean, where, where where does that 1399 01:21:48,120 --> 01:21:49,680 stop? That's not going to stop. 1400 01:21:50,520 --> 01:21:53,000 I mean, unless we run out of electricity or something. 1401 01:21:53,440 --> 01:21:57,680 But even there, the people who are developing new electrical 1402 01:21:57,680 --> 01:22:02,040 systems are using AI too. So it it buoys everyone up, 1403 01:22:02,040 --> 01:22:05,720 everyone's and the part of this buoy of knowledge which is 1404 01:22:05,720 --> 01:22:09,920 accelerating very quickly. So yeah, that part will help. 1405 01:22:10,480 --> 01:22:14,200 Again, it does make me worry though, that that our history is 1406 01:22:14,200 --> 01:22:16,920 not so good in terms of developing new things. 1407 01:22:17,600 --> 01:22:21,640 So, and this is so first of all, there's a, there's the danger of 1408 01:22:21,640 --> 01:22:24,080 that which people involved in AI are well aware of. 1409 01:22:24,080 --> 01:22:26,080 The second thing that was the ethics of it. 1410 01:22:26,640 --> 01:22:29,280 Like we, we want to do something that is not going to end up 1411 01:22:29,280 --> 01:22:33,600 harming everybody. So I was at a place in Silicon 1412 01:22:33,600 --> 01:22:39,960 Valley when Sergey Brin gave a, a presentation back in 1998 on 1413 01:22:39,960 --> 01:22:42,240 Google. He was hoping to raise funds for 1414 01:22:42,240 --> 01:22:44,960 Google. And and so he gave the pitch and 1415 01:22:44,960 --> 01:22:47,640 the people who were listening to that basically passed. 1416 01:22:47,800 --> 01:22:50,280 They didn't invest because they thought, well, that's a stupid 1417 01:22:50,280 --> 01:22:54,800 idea that would never work. So the beginning of Google their 1418 01:22:54,800 --> 01:23:02,120 their motto was do no evil. Well, they dropped that after a 1419 01:23:02,120 --> 01:23:04,400 while. I would say probably, yeah. 1420 01:23:04,800 --> 01:23:08,080 And so, you know, you start out idealistic and saying we we can 1421 01:23:08,080 --> 01:23:10,400 change the world for the better. We can do this. 1422 01:23:10,720 --> 01:23:14,200 If something becomes wildly successful, somehow that always 1423 01:23:14,200 --> 01:23:16,920 seems to slip away because you're, when people are throwing 1424 01:23:16,920 --> 01:23:22,560 billions of dollars at you, it, it's just, it's like it power 1425 01:23:22,560 --> 01:23:26,600 corrupts and it, and, and so it's very, very difficult for 1426 01:23:26,600 --> 01:23:29,160 anybody to withstand that. I think there are a couple of 1427 01:23:29,160 --> 01:23:33,360 examples, but unfortunately very few examples where the power 1428 01:23:33,360 --> 01:23:37,640 does not corrupt. And so in this case is AIA kind 1429 01:23:37,640 --> 01:23:39,400 of power. Well, trillions of dollars are 1430 01:23:39,400 --> 01:23:43,320 being thrown at it today and there is definitely an AI arms 1431 01:23:43,320 --> 01:23:48,280 race going on around the world. So yes, there's a very positive 1432 01:23:48,280 --> 01:23:51,320 element in it and that it will, it'll push up our knowledge 1433 01:23:51,320 --> 01:23:54,520 quickly and we'll be able to solve real problems that are out 1434 01:23:54,520 --> 01:23:56,880 there. At the same time, it's going to 1435 01:23:56,880 --> 01:24:01,960 create new problems. And again, we, I don't know if 1436 01:24:01,960 --> 01:24:06,680 we need luck or grace or something to make sure that it 1437 01:24:06,680 --> 01:24:11,280 doesn't accidentally destroy us. And it seems like you were 1438 01:24:11,280 --> 01:24:15,160 saying before that magic has that same potential that I mean, 1439 01:24:15,160 --> 01:24:19,200 as we advance in that regard, if indeed we do so, then there's 1440 01:24:19,200 --> 01:24:21,720 going to be, you know, weaponization efforts and 1441 01:24:21,720 --> 01:24:23,240 everything else. So it'll be going through that 1442 01:24:23,240 --> 01:24:27,760 same arc of growth maybe at the same time, which creates for an 1443 01:24:27,760 --> 01:24:32,320 interesting landscape. Yeah, an AI assisted magic. 1444 01:24:32,960 --> 01:24:33,920 Yeah. Yeah. 1445 01:24:33,960 --> 01:24:37,760 So I can easily imagine that something like that could 1446 01:24:37,760 --> 01:24:40,760 happen. Yeah, well, I was talking to 1447 01:24:40,800 --> 01:24:44,320 Adam Curry the other day and we were talking about what he calls 1448 01:24:44,360 --> 01:24:46,760 a plant RNG experiment that they did. 1449 01:24:47,360 --> 01:24:52,200 Where they had a plant in one corner of the room and a random 1450 01:24:52,200 --> 01:24:54,920 number generator that seems to direct where the light would 1451 01:24:54,920 --> 01:24:57,400 point. And that over time the plant 1452 01:24:57,400 --> 01:25:00,280 seemed to draw more light on average than it should have by, 1453 01:25:00,360 --> 01:25:05,800 you know, 25% statistically. And he said that, but it's hard 1454 01:25:05,800 --> 01:25:10,680 to know where the, if any human intention basically manifested 1455 01:25:10,680 --> 01:25:14,760 that result or if it was life in terms of the plant, you know, 1456 01:25:15,120 --> 01:25:19,080 drawing it down. Well, having AI designed and 1457 01:25:19,080 --> 01:25:23,440 conducted experiments potentially can answer those 1458 01:25:23,440 --> 01:25:25,440 questions, right? I mean, like that's like where 1459 01:25:25,440 --> 01:25:27,920 there is no human intention. But then obviously we'll get 1460 01:25:27,920 --> 01:25:32,000 into can AI have intention that can be manifested magically, 1461 01:25:32,520 --> 01:25:34,840 right? It's like a nesting boxes, you 1462 01:25:34,880 --> 01:25:39,080 know a little bit. So I actually have AI have a 1463 01:25:39,120 --> 01:25:42,720 proposed design for a plant PK experiment that would, that 1464 01:25:42,720 --> 01:25:44,280 would get the human out of the loop. 1465 01:25:45,000 --> 01:25:46,440 And it's true. It's, it's always been a 1466 01:25:46,440 --> 01:25:49,360 difficult problem because we're humans and we're doing stuff 1467 01:25:49,800 --> 01:25:52,560 well. So the, the idea is this, that 1468 01:25:54,880 --> 01:25:59,280 we infer that what if, if a plant wanted light that it 1469 01:25:59,280 --> 01:26:01,880 would, it would make the light point towards them, but they 1470 01:26:01,880 --> 01:26:04,320 don't want light all the time because they have diurnal 1471 01:26:04,320 --> 01:26:06,760 rhythms too. So then they'd want to push the 1472 01:26:06,760 --> 01:26:09,160 light away. Well, how do we know that we're 1473 01:26:09,160 --> 01:26:10,920 making the assumption that that's the case? 1474 01:26:11,880 --> 01:26:14,000 Well, so it turns out that people are doing plant 1475 01:26:14,000 --> 01:26:17,720 Physiology, have there all kinds of instruments that can infer 1476 01:26:18,040 --> 01:26:22,480 does this plant's chlorophyll need light now with the energy? 1477 01:26:22,480 --> 01:26:25,960 Well, there's there instruments that you can shine a light at a 1478 01:26:26,320 --> 01:26:29,880 plant and then you take a spectrographic response of the 1479 01:26:30,720 --> 01:26:34,320 of the fluorescence that happens and you can tell from that does 1480 01:26:34,320 --> 01:26:36,680 this plant need energy now from chlorophyll? 1481 01:26:37,320 --> 01:26:40,560 Well, that gives you an objective measure that the plant 1482 01:26:40,680 --> 01:26:44,680 wants light. And so if it turns out that the 1483 01:26:44,680 --> 01:26:46,880 random generator is doing its thing and turning the light 1484 01:26:46,880 --> 01:26:51,200 towards it, when that happens, you have a way of seeing what is 1485 01:26:51,200 --> 01:26:53,040 the plant actually want. You have the same thing for 1486 01:26:53,040 --> 01:26:55,960 water, same thing for nutrition, all kinds of things. 1487 01:26:56,280 --> 01:26:59,840 So you put this complex of sensors and random generators 1488 01:26:59,840 --> 01:27:04,880 and whatever, stick it in a closet for months and maybe you 1489 01:27:04,880 --> 01:27:07,560 get to see the data, but probably not you. 1490 01:27:07,560 --> 01:27:09,680 You let the thing run for a couple of months and then later 1491 01:27:09,680 --> 01:27:15,000 you analyze first of all, the plant still alive and second was 1492 01:27:15,000 --> 01:27:17,680 the random generator doing its thing at the time that the plant 1493 01:27:17,680 --> 01:27:22,280 needed that thing. Well, that that's, that's not 1494 01:27:22,280 --> 01:27:24,640 completely getting you out of the loop because somebody had to 1495 01:27:24,640 --> 01:27:27,880 design it in the first case, but at least you now have objective 1496 01:27:27,880 --> 01:27:30,920 correlation measures to say, well, if that thing happened 1497 01:27:30,920 --> 01:27:33,640 when it wanted it, so that's pretty good because I don't know 1498 01:27:33,640 --> 01:27:37,880 when it wanted it, it knew. So anyway, so that's that's on 1499 01:27:37,880 --> 01:27:40,840 our drawing board and we may end up making that experiment. 1500 01:27:41,520 --> 01:27:45,760 I love the implications of that whole question because if that's 1501 01:27:46,160 --> 01:27:48,160 if that's what's actually happening in the plants and has 1502 01:27:48,160 --> 01:27:50,760 some effect on whether or not light is drawn to it. 1503 01:27:51,800 --> 01:27:55,400 It says something about evolution and how, I mean, all 1504 01:27:55,400 --> 01:27:59,160 kinds of things sort of open up. I mean, is there, it explains 1505 01:27:59,160 --> 01:28:01,760 for one thing, the short timeline for the complexity of 1506 01:28:01,800 --> 01:28:06,360 all of, you know, life basically like in the short timeline it 1507 01:28:06,360 --> 01:28:09,120 developed because it wanted to. I mean, basically is what it 1508 01:28:09,120 --> 01:28:12,800 would boil down to, and that is fascinating, right? 1509 01:28:13,120 --> 01:28:15,920 So our, our prime directive is, is living organisms is to 1510 01:28:15,920 --> 01:28:19,320 survive. So, so when it gets, it gets hot 1511 01:28:19,320 --> 01:28:23,360 and heavy and our motivation is really high and we can change 1512 01:28:23,360 --> 01:28:25,480 the environment to push in that direction. 1513 01:28:25,880 --> 01:28:29,240 It's true that we're looking at a way of accelerating evolution 1514 01:28:29,360 --> 01:28:32,800 really fast at which, among other things, would would 1515 01:28:32,880 --> 01:28:37,720 potentially say to go back at least hundreds of millions of 1516 01:28:37,720 --> 01:28:41,280 years, if not longer than that, that creatures like us might 1517 01:28:41,280 --> 01:28:44,960 have been around. So the the stories about ancient 1518 01:28:44,960 --> 01:28:48,440 alien blah blahs, it could have been us and they could still be 1519 01:28:48,440 --> 01:28:50,400 here, but they're just living in the ocean or something. 1520 01:28:51,200 --> 01:28:53,200 Exactly right. And that goes back to the UAB 1521 01:28:53,200 --> 01:28:55,960 question again. That's lovely. 1522 01:28:56,920 --> 01:28:59,360 Last question I wanted to ask you about, we'll call this a 1523 01:28:59,360 --> 01:29:02,920 wrap after this, but one of the things that when you're dealing 1524 01:29:02,920 --> 01:29:07,160 with the magical worldview or sort of the magical pursuit and 1525 01:29:07,160 --> 01:29:09,360 my studies, which are rather limited, but I've done, you 1526 01:29:09,760 --> 01:29:12,680 know, a fair amount of reading. There's always this question of 1527 01:29:12,680 --> 01:29:14,640 the Mystic versus the magician, right? 1528 01:29:14,640 --> 01:29:19,240 Like there's good character that arises through the discipline, 1529 01:29:19,240 --> 01:29:22,000 pursuit of unity with the godhead or whatever you want to 1530 01:29:22,000 --> 01:29:23,960 call it. And it requires training and 1531 01:29:23,960 --> 01:29:27,200 diligence. And you know, you, you grow as a 1532 01:29:27,320 --> 01:29:29,960 person. You've, you know, sort of figure 1533 01:29:29,960 --> 01:29:32,440 out how to be a good human being. 1534 01:29:33,360 --> 01:29:37,480 The converse of that is that the magician is, you know, sometimes 1535 01:29:37,480 --> 01:29:39,600 seen as like a selfish kind of activity, like you're 1536 01:29:39,600 --> 01:29:42,360 manipulating the innate reality in order to get what you want. 1537 01:29:46,200 --> 01:29:50,880 How do you think that? I mean, is it dangerous that to 1538 01:29:52,320 --> 01:29:56,160 basically pull magic out of that kind of dichotomy and have it be 1539 01:29:56,440 --> 01:29:59,720 just another tool so that it's open to the manipulation of 1540 01:29:59,720 --> 01:30:03,360 people who might be using fear instead of love as a motivator 1541 01:30:03,360 --> 01:30:05,720 or a sense of power for, for their magic? 1542 01:30:05,720 --> 01:30:09,080 And I mean, is that just a ridiculous question because of, 1543 01:30:09,320 --> 01:30:11,560 you know, we're moderns now. We don't have to worry about 1544 01:30:11,560 --> 01:30:14,160 that kind of thing. Or you kind of get where I'm 1545 01:30:14,160 --> 01:30:16,800 going with the question. No, that, that's a beautiful 1546 01:30:16,800 --> 01:30:19,160 question. It's a very important question. 1547 01:30:19,960 --> 01:30:24,040 And in fact, about a month ago, I was invited to give a talk at 1548 01:30:24,040 --> 01:30:28,480 Harvard Medical School for a conference where there's a well 1549 01:30:28,480 --> 01:30:32,480 known guru called Sadhguru with millions of followers. 1550 01:30:33,920 --> 01:30:37,800 So I asked Sadhguru that very question. 1551 01:30:38,560 --> 01:30:42,360 And I put it in the context of virtually every spiritual 1552 01:30:42,360 --> 01:30:46,160 tradition says that if you practice whatever it is, usually 1553 01:30:46,160 --> 01:30:48,800 meditation of some type, you do it long enough, you're going to 1554 01:30:48,800 --> 01:30:52,560 bump into these psychic things. And so don't pay attention to 1555 01:30:52,560 --> 01:30:54,560 the psychic things. They will occur. 1556 01:30:54,760 --> 01:30:58,200 They're like guide rails along the way that will tell you that 1557 01:30:58,200 --> 01:31:01,480 you're developing, but don't pay attention to it because they're 1558 01:31:01,480 --> 01:31:03,640 seductive. And you will end up being a 1559 01:31:03,640 --> 01:31:07,920 magician without the, the, the advantage of the mystical 1560 01:31:08,000 --> 01:31:11,560 wisdom, because it's true. If you go like all the way 1561 01:31:11,560 --> 01:31:13,280 through, you become a better person. 1562 01:31:13,280 --> 01:31:15,400 You're a different person than you were when you started, 1563 01:31:15,400 --> 01:31:18,600 Whereas you could, if you get stuck in the magic area, it's 1564 01:31:18,600 --> 01:31:20,280 all about power and control and whatever. 1565 01:31:20,280 --> 01:31:22,440 And that's not good for anybody except maybe you. 1566 01:31:23,000 --> 01:31:24,440 But even for you, it's not that great. 1567 01:31:25,240 --> 01:31:27,480 So, so I said, well, you know what? 1568 01:31:27,480 --> 01:31:33,240 The yes, we understand that the humans are, are seduced pretty 1569 01:31:33,240 --> 01:31:34,960 quickly by these kinds of powers. 1570 01:31:35,320 --> 01:31:38,600 And so it kind of makes sense from a spiritual perspective, if 1571 01:31:38,600 --> 01:31:42,000 that if you really want to become a better person and stay 1572 01:31:42,000 --> 01:31:45,680 on the spiritual path, do not dwell on the fact that you're 1573 01:31:45,680 --> 01:31:52,640 getting these these powers. So he so so yeah, I mean, he, he 1574 01:31:52,640 --> 01:31:54,960 said, yeah, that's basically the story. 1575 01:31:55,200 --> 01:31:58,360 But then I said, but I'm a sigh researcher. 1576 01:31:58,880 --> 01:32:01,840 My interest from a scientific perspective is understanding 1577 01:32:01,840 --> 01:32:04,760 what is like. How do these magic things work? 1578 01:32:05,120 --> 01:32:10,160 What does it say about us and as humans, to say nothing of if 1579 01:32:10,160 --> 01:32:13,600 those effects are real, it means that the spiritual path is true, 1580 01:32:14,080 --> 01:32:16,840 or at least we have more confidence in it, which would 1581 01:32:16,840 --> 01:32:19,440 help draw people on that path, which ultimately would be a 1582 01:32:19,440 --> 01:32:21,360 really good thing. Yeah, exactly right. 1583 01:32:21,560 --> 01:32:24,120 It was a very frustrating conversation for me because he 1584 01:32:24,120 --> 01:32:28,240 would not, he would did not want to go to the place where he said 1585 01:32:28,240 --> 01:32:31,160 that Cybersearch could be very valuable for that reason. 1586 01:32:32,040 --> 01:32:35,040 And the reason I think he said that we kept going back and 1587 01:32:35,040 --> 01:32:39,680 forth on this was because we are weak. 1588 01:32:40,480 --> 01:32:43,520 We are weak, weak people. And we don't have this good 1589 01:32:43,520 --> 01:32:47,120 history of taking knowledge and using it only for good stuff. 1590 01:32:47,720 --> 01:32:51,040 So if we get into the stage where now we have a, we have an 1591 01:32:51,040 --> 01:32:55,400 arms race based on what amounts to magic, that's not going to be 1592 01:32:55,400 --> 01:32:59,520 good for anybody. And it's, and so the science 1593 01:32:59,680 --> 01:33:02,960 that I mean, I've, I've, I look at this as a basic scientist, 1594 01:33:02,960 --> 01:33:05,480 I'm interested in how things work and why it works and all 1595 01:33:05,480 --> 01:33:09,480 that stuff. But the knowledge, if it is used 1596 01:33:09,480 --> 01:33:15,200 badly, could go in a wrong direction because it's true. 1597 01:33:15,200 --> 01:33:17,840 It is a force of nature. It's like a, it's a thing. 1598 01:33:17,840 --> 01:33:19,560 It's, that's the way that things work. 1599 01:33:19,760 --> 01:33:22,200 We gained a really strong handle on that. 1600 01:33:22,200 --> 01:33:25,800 It could be bad. And so from the spiritual 1601 01:33:26,000 --> 01:33:29,360 tradition perspective, I think they knew that they could kind 1602 01:33:29,360 --> 01:33:32,720 of get it and which is why you don't want to collapse into 1603 01:33:32,720 --> 01:33:35,800 magic. And so I, I feel conflicted on 1604 01:33:35,800 --> 01:33:38,280 that. So, you know, do we learn as 1605 01:33:38,280 --> 01:33:39,960 much as we can and keep it secret? 1606 01:33:41,520 --> 01:33:43,120 And so I the. Answer right I mean. 1607 01:33:43,480 --> 01:33:46,240 Well, I was arguing that it's better to know than not to know, 1608 01:33:47,200 --> 01:33:51,040 and he was pushing back on that. You know, it's OK to know, but 1609 01:33:51,040 --> 01:33:53,480 maybe you don't want to share what you know, or maybe 1610 01:33:53,480 --> 01:33:58,440 sometimes it's not good to know. So, you know, I, I still don't 1611 01:33:58,440 --> 01:34:03,480 know what to make of that. It was, it was filmed or our 1612 01:34:03,480 --> 01:34:05,960 conversation was filmed, but I don't know that it'll, it'll 1613 01:34:05,960 --> 01:34:12,440 ever be shown anywhere because, because that it was, it was an 1614 01:34:12,440 --> 01:34:17,160 unresolved conversation. It's an important one, but I I 1615 01:34:17,160 --> 01:34:20,840 don't know how to resolve that. I know that you can. 1616 01:34:20,840 --> 01:34:24,200 I mean, time will resolve it one way or the other, although I 1617 01:34:24,200 --> 01:34:30,000 think that like keeping that that the spiritual context 1618 01:34:30,000 --> 01:34:35,880 around it, even if just as a, you know, you know, metadata or 1619 01:34:35,880 --> 01:34:37,960 whatever, just to keep that in the conversation. 1620 01:34:37,960 --> 01:34:41,000 So it doesn't just become this is a new technology totally 1621 01:34:41,000 --> 01:34:42,880 divorced from spiritual principles. 1622 01:34:43,440 --> 01:34:46,760 I think you're right that it may prove a draw, you know, because 1623 01:34:46,760 --> 01:34:51,880 it once people realize that there is something to these old 1624 01:34:51,880 --> 01:34:55,680 philosophies and that power can be had, there will also freedom 1625 01:34:55,800 --> 01:35:00,440 can be had there. And maybe that's the the the 1626 01:35:00,440 --> 01:35:03,480 right competitor, you know, if people realize that do you want 1627 01:35:03,480 --> 01:35:05,480 freedom or power, that's where they. 1628 01:35:06,360 --> 01:35:08,040 Have to make the choice. Fortunately, there there's 1629 01:35:08,120 --> 01:35:12,320 there's a good ending to this, I think, and that is that there 1630 01:35:12,320 --> 01:35:14,760 our institute is Institute of Noetic Sciences. 1631 01:35:14,840 --> 01:35:18,280 So what is noetic? Noetic is talking about a form 1632 01:35:18,280 --> 01:35:23,880 of intuition or deep intuition where you know something, it 1633 01:35:23,880 --> 01:35:28,360 just appears and you know with certainty that it's true and it 1634 01:35:28,360 --> 01:35:31,080 is true. But this is like like psychic 1635 01:35:31,080 --> 01:35:32,800 information. It's just so you're, you're 1636 01:35:33,000 --> 01:35:34,440 connected to the universe somehow. 1637 01:35:35,000 --> 01:35:38,040 If somebody has that kind of experience, whether it's a 1638 01:35:38,040 --> 01:35:41,120 psychic or near death experience or a mystical experience, 1639 01:35:41,120 --> 01:35:46,120 whatever it is, or even psychedelic, in most cases, it's 1640 01:35:46,120 --> 01:35:48,760 an immediate transformative experience. 1641 01:35:48,960 --> 01:35:52,120 They become a better person. The the jargon is they become 1642 01:35:52,120 --> 01:35:55,880 pro social, so they could have been total jerk beforehand. 1643 01:35:56,080 --> 01:35:59,600 They something happens like a near death experience and now 1644 01:35:59,880 --> 01:36:02,520 they're totally different. Which when I've talked to 1645 01:36:02,520 --> 01:36:05,080 psychiatrists about this, they say, well, that's impossible. 1646 01:36:05,440 --> 01:36:07,720 You know, you're, you're kind of locked in on your personality. 1647 01:36:07,720 --> 01:36:11,040 Well, no, this is like the reverse of PTSD. 1648 01:36:11,440 --> 01:36:15,440 Something happens, you are flipped, and you're flipped into 1649 01:36:15,440 --> 01:36:19,520 a version of humanity that is exactly where we want to end up. 1650 01:36:23,080 --> 01:36:25,200 Yeah. I mean, so those experiences are 1651 01:36:25,200 --> 01:36:26,680 extremely important to understand. 1652 01:36:26,680 --> 01:36:30,240 Well, why does that happen? How do we make it happen if we 1653 01:36:30,240 --> 01:36:33,760 wanted to? How do we learn as much as we 1654 01:36:33,760 --> 01:36:37,120 possibly can about psychic and mystical and magical things 1655 01:36:37,480 --> 01:36:41,600 without collapsing into that but kind of moving and moving on and 1656 01:36:41,600 --> 01:36:44,040 say, oh, now we understand better who and what we are and 1657 01:36:44,040 --> 01:36:45,960 how we interact with the world? Good. 1658 01:36:46,120 --> 01:36:48,120 There's more. The latter keeps going. 1659 01:36:48,440 --> 01:36:50,200 Let's let's go with that as well. 1660 01:36:50,560 --> 01:36:53,280 So that that's kind of my hope of, of the way that we go. 1661 01:36:56,600 --> 01:37:01,160 From your lips to God's ears, I would say thank you, Dean, for a 1662 01:37:01,160 --> 01:37:04,600 fantastic conversation that was epic and I appreciate you and 1663 01:37:04,600 --> 01:37:06,840 all your work and your book was fantastic so. 1664 01:37:07,360 --> 01:37:07,680 Thank you.