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Hey Jim. 
We've got a new intro. 

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Do you want to hear it? 
Let's hear it. 

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This is identity at the center. 
If it has anything to do with I 

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am this is the go-to podcast. 
So if you're a beginner or an 

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expert or anyone in between 
you've found your new home 

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welcome to Identity at the 
center now your host Jim 

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McDonald and Jeff Steadman No. 
So, how about that? 

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That's fancy dude. 
I like it. 

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Yeah, figured, you know what? 
For episode 200, we start off a 

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little bit different. 
We got a new intro, spent a 

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little time on it. 
Spent a little money on it to 

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play it together but I'm like, 
I'm pleased with the way it came

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out. 
Yeah, I just, you know, behind 

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the curtains. 
How did you get it done? 

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If I recognize that voice. 
Yeah, so I went on Fiverr and 

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you know, talk with a few 
different people and kind of I'm

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looking for went through a few 
different revisions and settled 

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on that. 
So so Keith is my guy. 

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Yeah. 
And you know what I really like 

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about it like it's punchy. 
He has a very clear way of 

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speaking which I wish I did. 
You know he enunciates very 

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clearly and I think the length 
of the intro is appropriate, 

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right? 
It's not like too long. 

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It's not too short. 
Perfect. 

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Yeah you don't want something I 
was like you know four minutes 

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of introduction and we went 
through and through A few 

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different versions. 
But yeah, something I try to 

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keep it. 
I've been trying to keep them 

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under 30 seconds or so for the 
last couple years, so you no 

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longer have to listen to my 
crappy intros. 

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Now, we actually have a 
professional one. 

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So no, no. 
I mean like, I like love the new

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intro but I want to say that the
old intro was good too. 

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I mean, I don't call a crappy. 
He did a great job with that. 

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Well, maybe I should go on 
Pfeiffer and start doing a 

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little side to side hustle. 
Yeah, exactly. 

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So yeah. 
Welcome to the identity, the 

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center podcast, I'm Jeff. 
That's Jim Jim. 

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How's things going good? 
So I had a really interesting 

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afternoon evening less 
yesterday. 

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So I sitting on, I live in 
Augusta Georgia, so I was 

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sitting on Bobby Jones 
Expressway, which is kind of, 

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like, kind of a major 
thoroughfare returns from, like,

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limited-access Highway into a 
road with lights and I get to 

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one light and the Police stopped
traffic and they pull this thing

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across the road, which looks 
like a string basically. 

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Like and then they wave 
everybody. 

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So end up at the next light, 
sitting there at the next light.

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This car like a bad of hack 
flies by and it's being chased 

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by like 20 police cars and they 
go into a ditch, this car goes 

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into a ditch flies out of the 
ditch. 

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Makes a turn on like the smaller
Road and all the police cars 

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like chase after them. 
I'm like wow that's like 

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something you would see on the 
Nightly News and I just saw it 

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in person and you know what I 
realized was I forgot to take 

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out my phone and video this 
whole thing because that's what 

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you're supposed to do these 
days, it was how we going to 

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validate this, even happen. 
This isn't just a story you made

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up. 
So the only you only you know, 

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somewhat proof that I have is 
that later on in the evening. 

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Evening. 
There was a report that a 

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fugitive was on the loose in our
area that he ditched his car and

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one of the neighborhoods nearby 
and was like running around and 

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supposedly armed and which I 
mean, I guess if you run away 

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from the police, you ditch your 
car, you're probably armed. 

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And I don't know actually if 
he's been caught yet but they 

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sure do sounds like you made a 
getaway or something, I don't 

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know. 
I can't believe what was it? 

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Like tires. 
Tire spikes that they try to 

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pull out across the road. 
And yeah, I'm not sure that's 

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usually like the whole the whole
time. 

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I thought there were maybe 
pulling something, cause you 

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know how they have those like 
counters and certain rows to try

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to see like, how many people 
are. 

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Yeah. 
Driving on that road. 

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At first, I was thinking, well, 
I guess is that? 

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But it looked like, just look 
like a piece of string and then 

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it's like, police officers doing
it, which I thought was strange 

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in the middle. 
Are these, the why are these 

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police officers pulling string 
across The road that doesn't 

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make any sense. 
It didn't make sense. 

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None of it added up until I saw 
the guy there's like a 

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Mitsubishi Spider as what the 
kind of vehicle I would say it 

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was is gray and like it went 
into the ditch hard. 

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I mean it had to be going like 
40 miles an hour into the ditch 

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and then like all the police 
cars were swarming but it just 

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like kept driving and then like 
pulled off in this small Road. 

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And then I mean it was a number 
of police cars that were chasing

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after him. 
The Geology didn't catch. 

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Him is insane to me. 
Yeah that seems kind of weird. 

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Like any helicopters. 
You sure - yes. 

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So supposedly. 
There's a helicopter circling 

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around the area last night. 
So I guess there's a lot of 

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crime in a gust, a lot of 
shootings and stuff like that. 

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I'm kind of sheltered where I 
live because it's like the more 

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suburban area but I still I 
never see things like that. 

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Happened. 
Yeah that is weird and 

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interesting. 
I guess that's not you don't I 

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guess not in a good way. 
No but that's easy. 

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Par for the course. 
Jim is your starting off our 

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recent episodes on somewhat of a
downer. 

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Yeah well I don't know. 
I mean it was kind of a I don't 

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usually have something to spikes
my adrenaline and heart rate 

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other than going to the gym, you
know. 

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So that was that was the plus 
side. 

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I plus it it get hurt or killed 
Also, yeah. 

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Look here, I'm just celebrate 
bystander. 

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But you didn't, you didn't have 
your phone. 

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So there's no social media 
flavor of it, so I could throw 

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that on LinkedIn. 
That would be a big hit. 

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Yeah, I'm sure. 
Well, no, please don't put on 

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LinkedIn. 
I hate people put like personal 

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suffering like that. 
Yeah, I'm with you. 

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Like, I don't get that. 
I don't really hate it. 

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But I mean, some people feel 
compelled to do it and I haven't

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seen babies like a Serial 
personal life poster on 

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LinkedIn. 
Oh, I you, I've seen. 

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A bunch. 
I guess maybe it's just depends 

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on the network or whatever, 
maybe that you're part of. 

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But yeah, there's things on 
there that I see all the time. 

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It's like, really. 
This is this is the place for 

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that, that you ought to put 
that. 

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How do you choose who to accept 
on LinkedIn and who not to? 

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That is a great question because
I get a lot, you know, lots of 

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listeners, which are great if so
what. 

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So, if I get a message with it 
that says, hey, I'm a listener 

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or whatever, I audit, that's a 
no-brainer, right? 

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Of course, we're going to 
connect. 

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I get a lot of Context invites 
as well, it's like, okay, who is

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this person? 
Why are they reaching out 

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recruiters, you know, other 
technology companies? 

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You know things like that as 
okay. 

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Well, if they're in the, I am 
space, I might look at him and 

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said, okay, sure, I get a awful 
lot of like podcast promotion 

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people. 
I do not accept any of those. 

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Like I has not, you know, I'm 
not, I'm not interested in that 

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side of the world, but it seems 
like there must be like, some 

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sort of like, class that gets 
out because I will receive Like 

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every eight weeks, 12 weeks like
10 of them all in the same day 

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and then I'll get like nothing 
for like a few weeks. 

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And it seems to be like, 
there's, maybe some sort of like

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training course somewhere is 
doing to, like, help. 

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You know, people who want to 
help promote podcasts or 

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marketing or whatever, maybe 
least, that's my theory, it just

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seems very interesting. 
That's, it's very spiky. 

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Nothing very spiky. 
Nothing and that's been a trend 

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for, like, the last year and a 
half or so. 

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Yeah I had an interesting one 
come up the other day where 

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somebody could act it to me. 
So by the way, my attitude is 

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all except anybody. 
But you know if it becomes like 

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an ongoing series of unwanted 
direct messages, I just block 

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them. 
But this person reach out to me 

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connected, you know, and they 
were from an identity and access

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management technology company. 
And not one that I had heard of 

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but I said very well interested 
in learning more, whatever is 

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that it looks at the person's 
profile picture and it was like 

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one of those perfect perfect 
profile pictures where I was 

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like man I wish my profile 
picture was like that clear and 

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that well framed and everything 
that I looked at it. 

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I was like it kind of looks like
there's like something like over

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her chin. 
So I clicked into it further and

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it was a watermark Like a stock 
photo site I'm like no, no, 

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that's that's total garbage man.
Like really especially for an I 

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am technology Product Company to
have somebody out there using a 

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stock photo and it was 
supposedly like they're their VP

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of strategy or something. 
I was like that is weak sauce 

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man. 
I get the occasional fake 

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profile where it's clearly not a
real person. 

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It's like, oh here's this 
person's background there and 

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they start. 
I'm in identity and then you 

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look at that like their job 
history it's like I was a 

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programmer and then I was like 
Chief marketing. 

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It's and there's like the the 
work history and all the details

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around it. 
Don't make any sense whatsoever.

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Everything conflicts with 
everything else. 

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There's clearly no Direction 
there. 

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And it's just like a profile 
that was put together to harness

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as many keywords for searches as
possible. 

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Yeah, yeah. 
That's bad. 

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That's bad. 
So, I don't know if it's as bad 

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as a watermark on here. 
And picture. 

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That's, that's pretty bad too. 
Yeah, I think like if I'd gotten

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that, it was somebody who was 
like, just trying to sell, you 

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know, hey Will promote your 
podcast, or we're search engine 

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optimization. 
Then it would kind of go with 

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it, but that they were actually 
like, hey, we've got the best. 

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I am provisioning tool etcetera.
Etc. 

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That to me was like, now you 
can't have a stock photo. 

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Yeah. 
Well, stock photos, bad 

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regardless. 
I mean the opens up so many 

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questions I mean white, you 
know, tal licensing. 

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Yeah. 
Well that's enough, I guess the 

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all stuff that I think about 
right when you put out episodes,

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it's okay. 
Well, my getting like a 

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copyright strike honest. 
We don't, you can't use, you 

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know, commercial stuff, it's 
just a two of us. 

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So it's not like, you know, we 
have all this, you know, 

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protection for Mike a brand 
perspective. 

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00:10:51,900 --> 00:10:55,200
Some very careful about our 
stuff gets out there so that we 

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00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:58,600
avoid any issues. 
That's how Make it to episode 

201
00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:01,500
200, man. 
You can't just like roll out of 

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bed and beyond episode 200. 
Yeah, episode 200, man, this is 

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a pretty pretty big milestone 
for us. 

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00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:09,800
We're actually talking 
Milestones before we hit record 

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here and I feel like every 100 
episodes is a milestone, there's

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clearly bigger ones like 500 
1000. 

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If we ever make it to that like 
that kind of thing. 

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But I still feel like every 
hundred is still a pretty 

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significant Milestone, 
especially if you consider the 

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vast majority of podcasts never.
Make it past episode 7. 

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And here, we are in number 200. 
Yeah. 

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00:11:32,100 --> 00:11:36,400
You know I and I think it's like
a natural 200 because I like to 

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say we've done an episode every 
Monday for the past three and a 

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half years and it's not exactly 
true. 

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00:11:43,300 --> 00:11:45,000
Right. 
Like over Christmas, we take a 

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break and then we've, you know, 
certain conferences will go to 

217
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would do like four or five 
episodes while we're there and 

218
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we're not going to stagger those
out over the next four or five. 

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00:11:57,100 --> 00:11:59,900
X. 
We do a burst of three to five 

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episodes of the week, but what I
mean by its natural. 

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00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:06,900
It's like we're not taking 
episode a recording and chopping

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00:12:06,900 --> 00:12:10,900
it up into three parts. 
Typically I'd say the most we've

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recorded was like two episodes 
of one day. 

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I don't think we've ever 
recorded three in one day so 

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it's not like we're doing things
to choose that number. 

226
00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:27,500
Yeah, 191 and a half weeks since
the podcast started, which I 

227
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think our first original 
recording was June 20th and 

228
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we're going to play some clips 
later of some of the shows that 

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00:12:33,100 --> 00:12:35,300
I think, you know, you and I 
have liked over the over the 

230
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last couple years, I was 
debating on episode one and it's

231
00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:43,400
just so bad from a nautical 
active, but I couldn't bring 

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00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:45,000
myself to like, make a clip out 
of it. 

233
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If you want to go, listen to it.
Great. 

234
00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:51,300
I think the content is good, but
I think we are clearly the first

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time we've ever done. 
It didn't know what we were 

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doing and still kind of figuring
it out. 

237
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And again, 200 episodes later, 
We're still kind of figure. 

238
00:12:58,100 --> 00:13:00,200
It's like a lot, but I feel like
we have gotten a little bit 

239
00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:02,000
better, you know, certain 
aspects of things. 

240
00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:06,200
But yeah, 191 and a half weeks 
and we've put out 200 episodes. 

241
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So we're averaging, you know, 
just over one episode every 

242
00:13:10,100 --> 00:13:11,400
week, which I think is pretty 
impressive. 

243
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Considering this isn't even our 
day job, right? 

244
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This is something we do on the 
side For the Love of the Game. 

245
00:13:16,900 --> 00:13:19,800
We're not sponsored, we don't 
run commercials right occasion 

246
00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:21,300
will get support from the 
companies that we've worked 

247
00:13:21,300 --> 00:13:23,000
with, you know, over the last 
couple of years. 

248
00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:26,700
But for the most part, when 
people, when people hear and 

249
00:13:26,700 --> 00:13:28,100
see, The identity Center 
podcast. 

250
00:13:28,100 --> 00:13:31,500
It's you and me, you handle all 
the booking and sort of getting 

251
00:13:31,500 --> 00:13:32,500
together. 
You know what? 

252
00:13:32,500 --> 00:13:34,600
The topics are the shows are 
going to be about, and I handle 

253
00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:38,000
kind of all the back end stuff 
and web, and editing, and things

254
00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:39,200
like that. 
Yeah. 

255
00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:43,300
And, you know, you and I met 
working at it. 

256
00:13:43,300 --> 00:13:46,800
Atrophy, we work very closely 
together and grew into a 

257
00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:50,300
friendship and we thought, hey, 
why don't we come up with a 

258
00:13:50,308 --> 00:13:53,600
podcast? 
And honestly, I think of the 200

259
00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:58,100
episodes. 
Well, 199 going into Today, I 

260
00:13:58,100 --> 00:14:00,700
haven't listened to many of 
them, you know, I'm there for 

261
00:14:00,700 --> 00:14:03,900
the record are there for the and
I think you probably listen to 

262
00:14:03,900 --> 00:14:07,400
all of them, but I've listened 
to hardly any of them. 

263
00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:12,500
And I actually the other day, 
listen to episode 199 with Sarah

264
00:14:12,900 --> 00:14:16,100
and like, you know, this isn't 
half bad. 

265
00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:18,600
It's actually a pretty good 
podcast we put out. 

266
00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:23,000
Yeah, no, I think it's, I think 
it's, I think, this is something

267
00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:25,000
that most people struggle with 
is hearing their own voice. 

268
00:14:25,100 --> 00:14:28,500
I certainly didn't. 
Yeah, I mean I was there I don't

269
00:14:28,500 --> 00:14:31,400
necessarily need to listen to 
that episode, but I hear it 

270
00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:33,200
naturally. 
As part of the editing process 

271
00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:36,400
and trying to make make things 
go well, but yeah, I think, you 

272
00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:38,800
know what, I think we've done 
all right for, you know, a 

273
00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:41,000
two-man show for the last couple
of years. 

274
00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:45,200
I'm looking forward to another, 
you know, 200 episodes at least.

275
00:14:45,900 --> 00:14:48,200
Do you remember the first 
question you asked me when we 

276
00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:51,000
first met at I'd entropy, I 
remember it very clearly because

277
00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:55,300
we were in Las Vegas. 
No, I don't remember. 

278
00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:59,400
It's a very Jim question. 
Do you like baseball? 

279
00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,500
Absolutely. 
That was the first question and 

280
00:15:02,500 --> 00:15:05,900
I was like, not really I kind of
follow the Cubs B, it and then 

281
00:15:05,900 --> 00:15:08,000
you just kind of like walked 
away. 

282
00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:12,000
I've no, I've no use for the 
sky. 

283
00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:14,500
Yeah, exactly. 
We was some dinner that we were 

284
00:15:14,500 --> 00:15:16,100
doing. 
I think, probably for, I could 

285
00:15:16,100 --> 00:15:17,800
entropy customers or something 
like that. 

286
00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:21,200
And that was the first time we 
had met face-to-face. 

287
00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:22,900
I think we had been on the phone
a few times. 

288
00:15:23,100 --> 00:15:25,200
For that. 
But yeah, that was like our 

289
00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:28,900
first introduction and who would
have thought I guess that would 

290
00:15:28,900 --> 00:15:31,200
have been what seven or eight 
years ago now you know, here we 

291
00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:36,100
are still working together, 
certainly The Odd Couple, you 

292
00:15:36,100 --> 00:15:39,900
know, I don't think we could be 
really any more different and a 

293
00:15:39,908 --> 00:15:42,000
lot of different areas but it 
certainly Works. 

294
00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,700
Our friend, Jody calls us, the 
identity mullet. 

295
00:15:46,100 --> 00:15:48,700
I'm the business up front, 
you're the party in the back, 

296
00:15:51,500 --> 00:15:54,500
but yeah, it's worth. 
Act and hey man. 

297
00:15:54,500 --> 00:15:57,300
Cheers to us for 200 episodes. 
Yeah. 

298
00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:01,200
Yeah, Joe is a great person and 
I remember working with her 

299
00:16:01,500 --> 00:16:06,800
organization and it was like one
of those ones that prove that 

300
00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:11,400
every different. 
Advisory you go into Yeager to 

301
00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:13,700
see some things that are saying 
but there's always something 

302
00:16:13,700 --> 00:16:15,900
that's different and actually 
that one had a lot that was 

303
00:16:15,900 --> 00:16:20,100
different because they didn't 
run active directory and it's 

304
00:16:20,100 --> 00:16:22,900
like that's almost like the 
first box you could check with 

305
00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:27,400
Every company on their internal.
I am they've got an active 

306
00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:30,400
directory and this program did 
Samba right? 

307
00:16:30,500 --> 00:16:33,400
I think it was Samba. 
I was my first introduction to 

308
00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:36,800
some like really getting into 
into more detail on Saba and 

309
00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:39,200
it's still the only time I've 
seen Samba and any Enterprise 

310
00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:41,600
ever worked with. 
Yeah, I remember them telling us

311
00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:45,500
that they were like the biggest 
user of Samba, like they 

312
00:16:45,500 --> 00:16:50,000
contribute to the open source, 
whatever it is exactly cool. 

313
00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:53,400
So what's changed in the last 
couple of Of years. 

314
00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:54,900
I mean, I feel like 200 
episodes. 

315
00:16:54,900 --> 00:16:58,500
We, you know, there's been what 
changes and presidents and 

316
00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:02,400
health, what else? 
Yeah, well I think, I mean, it 

317
00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:06,000
would be hard to ignore the fact
that we went through this big 

318
00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:11,000
Global pandemic. 
Trying to think what to start 

319
00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:14,800
like March 2020, right? 
Yeah, we were here before it and

320
00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:17,400
we're here after it because we 
certainly hope. 

321
00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:21,400
Thank goodness. 
Yeah, both literally and 

322
00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:25,099
figuratively. 
That mean I think that's 

323
00:17:25,099 --> 00:17:27,599
probably one of the biggest 
things that happened in our 

324
00:17:27,599 --> 00:17:29,700
career. 
It happened right in the middle 

325
00:17:29,700 --> 00:17:32,200
of the life of the podcast. 
So here's one thing that I 

326
00:17:32,208 --> 00:17:37,000
remember was we are growing our 
listenership like crazy. 

327
00:17:37,300 --> 00:17:41,800
Like I think in the beginning, 
like our first let us call it 15

328
00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:44,500
20 episodes. 
It was like it wasn't growing 

329
00:17:44,500 --> 00:17:45,800
too fast. 
That all of a sudden it was 

330
00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:49,500
like, whoa, It's people must be 
listening to this podcast on 

331
00:17:49,500 --> 00:17:54,400
their way to work and then the 
global pandemic 8 And it's like,

332
00:17:54,700 --> 00:17:58,200
oh we're back to like where we 
were the first few episodes. 

333
00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:01,800
Like people stop listening but 
then it's growing back and then 

334
00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:06,900
some obviously since then. 
But yeah, I I always wonder 

335
00:18:06,900 --> 00:18:09,300
where people listen to the 
podcast. 

336
00:18:09,300 --> 00:18:12,100
Like, what are they doing? 
They like mowing the lawn and 

337
00:18:12,100 --> 00:18:17,300
listening to it, you know, in 
their car, putting their kid to 

338
00:18:17,300 --> 00:18:21,000
sleep. 
Try to get everyone to fall 

339
00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:22,400
asleep. 
Yeah, yeah. 

340
00:18:22,900 --> 00:18:26,200
Most people, I talked to, they 
are listening to on commutes or 

341
00:18:26,208 --> 00:18:29,900
walks or, or stuff like that, 
that they're kind of doing, you 

342
00:18:29,900 --> 00:18:33,700
know, that sort of thing. 
So I think, yeah, it's been an 

343
00:18:33,700 --> 00:18:36,800
interesting climb. 
It's been a slow climb, but 

344
00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:40,800
that's I think not somewhat by 
Design, but as a result of, 

345
00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:42,200
yeah, we don't really market, 
right? 

346
00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:45,100
It's just, here's the content. 
If you like it, share it, if you

347
00:18:45,100 --> 00:18:48,400
don't, okay? 
But we share it anyway, right? 

348
00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:50,500
Just set it out to an enemy. 
I don't care, right. 

349
00:18:50,500 --> 00:18:53,600
And I think that's just kind of 
Of How It's grown. 

350
00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:55,900
And, you know, we've talked, 
we've made a lot of great 

351
00:18:55,900 --> 00:18:58,800
relationships in the industry 
and we've certainly, you know, 

352
00:18:58,900 --> 00:19:02,500
covered a lot of conferences and
things like that. 

353
00:19:02,500 --> 00:19:04,800
And I think people started to 
take notice about that 

354
00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:06,900
obviously, Gartner's, a big one,
right? 

355
00:19:06,900 --> 00:19:09,700
We were there, sort of 
unofficially last year and now 

356
00:19:09,700 --> 00:19:11,400
we're going to be there 
officially you know, on the 

357
00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:15,400
stage interviewing Henry K and 
Becky in a couple weeks and I 

358
00:19:15,408 --> 00:19:19,000
think that's pretty amazing for,
you know, for not having you 

359
00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,900
know this this marketing machine
sort of behind it is just 

360
00:19:21,900 --> 00:19:24,500
literally just two of us and 
Power of our listeners really 

361
00:19:25,100 --> 00:19:27,200
tuning in every week and that's 
super cool. 

362
00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,100
And I'm super grateful and 
thankful for all that stuff 

363
00:19:30,100 --> 00:19:33,400
because that just it's not lost 
on me every week that you know 

364
00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:36,700
there are thousands of people 
who you know literally listen to

365
00:19:36,700 --> 00:19:39,500
us you know all the time and all
the great guest that we bring in

366
00:19:39,500 --> 00:19:44,100
and people have been you know I 
would say what 99.9 percent 

367
00:19:44,300 --> 00:19:47,400
supportive and we get nothing 
but content or good. 

368
00:19:47,500 --> 00:19:50,100
Good feedback from folks who 
reach out. 

369
00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:53,600
Yeah you can't you can't sell 
short the You know, the 

370
00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:57,600
listeners sharing it telling 
people to listen and commenting 

371
00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:01,200
on our post because I mean, 
otherwise it really wouldn't go 

372
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:03,400
anywhere. 
We can, you know, we don't have 

373
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,500
a marketing budget and even if 
we did, I don't think that's 

374
00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:07,800
respected. 
All in the intro. 

375
00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:10,700
It wasn't all the intro. 
Yeah, there you go. 

376
00:20:11,700 --> 00:20:14,500
Yeah. 
So today's episode is we kind of

377
00:20:14,500 --> 00:20:17,800
like I think a little bit of a 
retrospective of kind of where 

378
00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:19,600
we've been. 
I know that we're going to talk 

379
00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:22,800
a few different clips here. 
I did want to bring up. 

380
00:20:22,900 --> 00:20:24,200
Something that is relatively 
timely. 

381
00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:27,600
So it's today is Sunday February
19th. 

382
00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,600
You and I were recording this in
the morning as I've been 

383
00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:35,500
traveling all week and just got 
back yesterday in. 

384
00:20:35,500 --> 00:20:39,100
This is a topic that you and I 
were going to talk about anyway.

385
00:20:39,100 --> 00:20:42,300
And then, I saw a post from 
Michael Freeman on LinkedIn. 

386
00:20:42,500 --> 00:20:46,000
Wanting to know what our 
thoughts are on Twitter charging

387
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:50,300
for SMS MFA. 
And I have some thoughts. 

388
00:20:51,300 --> 00:20:53,600
Do you want to go first, you 
want to hear my thoughts first? 

389
00:20:54,100 --> 00:20:56,800
Um, yeah, I'll go first because 
I think this is something I've 

390
00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:00,300
been thinking about really all 
week since I heard the news and 

391
00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:06,600
I'm a little bit divided. 
And here's my, here's my 

392
00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:09,500
thoughts. 
So for those who people who are 

393
00:21:09,500 --> 00:21:15,600
not aware Twitter is going to 
start disabling SMS as an MFA 

394
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:19,700
option for people who have not 
subscribed, Ribbed to Twitter's 

395
00:21:19,700 --> 00:21:22,000
blue service, which is 
essentially, their monthly paid 

396
00:21:22,100 --> 00:21:25,200
subscription where you basically
pay the month to get a couple 

397
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:27,700
extra features. 
One of those new features is 

398
00:21:27,700 --> 00:21:32,200
going to be the continuing 
allowance to use SMS as an MFA. 

399
00:21:32,700 --> 00:21:38,100
You can still use the 
authenticator app or there was 

400
00:21:38,100 --> 00:21:40,400
another option of, you know, 
security key or something like 

401
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:44,300
that for MFA. 
If you are a non-paying user but

402
00:21:44,300 --> 00:21:47,700
if you but the option for SMS 
will be removed. 

403
00:21:48,100 --> 00:21:50,300
Some time in the Your futures 
what it sounded like? 

404
00:21:52,100 --> 00:21:56,900
I don't think that that is a 
very pro-consumer change that in

405
00:21:56,900 --> 00:21:59,300
the least. 
I think the way that they're 

406
00:21:59,300 --> 00:22:01,700
approaching this is essentially 
going to be okay you're not 

407
00:22:01,700 --> 00:22:05,800
paying or just going to turn off
MFA or second factor for you and

408
00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:10,500
now you're just back to ID and 
password that is terrible from a

409
00:22:10,508 --> 00:22:13,300
strategy perspective for 
protecting your customer 

410
00:22:13,300 --> 00:22:16,600
accounts. 
And I think this is a money grab

411
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,500
for, from E1. 
I think he He did not want to 

412
00:22:19,508 --> 00:22:21,700
buy the company for forty four 
billion dollars or whatever it 

413
00:22:21,708 --> 00:22:25,800
was tried to get out of it for 
months, essentially realize he 

414
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:30,100
had no case and had to buy it. 
And, you know, they're there 

415
00:22:30,900 --> 00:22:34,600
that that investment has not 
paid off to date with a lot of 

416
00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:37,500
things have been happening and 
he's doing everything he can to 

417
00:22:37,500 --> 00:22:40,100
get more money out of things to 
cut costs. 

418
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:45,200
And I think this is just a 
terrible move and doesn't make 

419
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:51,500
any sense from a From a security
of her from the user expected. 

420
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:54,100
That's it. 
I mean I think it's I purely 

421
00:22:54,100 --> 00:22:57,500
think this is a money grab and 
it's not thought out like a lot 

422
00:22:57,500 --> 00:22:59,300
of things. 
You said your divided on it. 

423
00:22:59,700 --> 00:23:03,100
I am because I think here's and 
that's that's that's my, I 

424
00:23:03,100 --> 00:23:06,200
guess, my negative opinions, the
positive opinions. 

425
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:10,700
I think, I think it's great to 
try to move people off of SMS or

426
00:23:10,700 --> 00:23:13,800
email MFA because of course, 
they are not the most secure 

427
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:17,000
things in the world. 
They are certainly the lowest I 

428
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:21,200
would say of the MFA Is that are
out there but they are still 

429
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:24,600
better than nothing and it will 
help you know, the average 

430
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,400
person better secure their 
access. 

431
00:23:27,900 --> 00:23:32,000
So I get wanting to move the bar
and sort of, you know, Force 

432
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,800
change. 
But I do not think that this is 

433
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:38,200
the intent behind it. 
I I totally think that this is a

434
00:23:38,300 --> 00:23:40,600
money. 
Grab a, cost-saving grab. 

435
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:45,700
And I'll actually liken it to 
Teslas, full self-driving. 

436
00:23:45,700 --> 00:23:48,000
Everyone knows I love Tesla. 
I love my tough. 

437
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,000
I have to now. 
I'm a big fan of the vehicles 

438
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:52,500
and electric vehicles in 
general. 

439
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:57,600
But I will tell you right now, 
Tesla full service are full. 

440
00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:01,800
Self-driving is kind of what 
they've put out there is 100% 

441
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:06,000
not ready to be used in the real
world and that has been 

442
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,900
recalled. 
It's a software update, which is

443
00:24:08,900 --> 00:24:11,500
kind of an interesting way to 
have a, do a recall, but it is 

444
00:24:11,500 --> 00:24:15,200
not safe for most people to be 
using and is not the right way 

445
00:24:15,208 --> 00:24:17,700
to do it. 
And I see this as the same type 

446
00:24:17,700 --> 00:24:20,400
of approach, where You know, 
they're basically trying to 

447
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:24,100
force a change before. 
People are ready and despite the

448
00:24:24,100 --> 00:24:30,700
safety risks. 
All right, so I want to verify a

449
00:24:30,700 --> 00:24:37,300
fact before I make my opinion. 
They're disabling SMS for non 

450
00:24:37,300 --> 00:24:43,500
paid subscribers, but you still 
can do MFA with a yubikey or the

451
00:24:43,500 --> 00:24:47,400
authenticator app? 
Yes, I've got. 

452
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,900
I don't have a problem with it. 
Here's why is that? 

453
00:24:50,900 --> 00:24:53,100
They're actually making the 
better option. 

454
00:24:53,100 --> 00:24:56,700
Free. 
And that's also there already, 

455
00:24:56,900 --> 00:24:58,800
you can do that today. 
That's not regulation. 

456
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:03,000
Well, that's free for take away 
the the Lesser option, which by 

457
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,600
the way they have to Hey, you 
can call a fraction of a penny 

458
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,900
to send us a mess. 
It's a worse option from a 

459
00:25:09,900 --> 00:25:15,400
security standpoint and I think 
almost nobody should pay for 

460
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:17,500
this all right no one's going to
know what they like. 

461
00:25:17,500 --> 00:25:19,400
All right. 
Well you know because it sounds 

462
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:23,100
like if you pay the 895 for the 
blue check you get it. 

463
00:25:24,100 --> 00:25:28,500
If you don't pay the 895, would 
you pay something just have SMS 

464
00:25:28,500 --> 00:25:30,300
rather than use the 
authenticator app? 

465
00:25:30,500 --> 00:25:33,600
I think the answer is no and I 
think a lot of company so the 

466
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:36,600
problem That I think you have is
that they're taking away this 

467
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,900
feature. 
If they never had the future, it

468
00:25:39,900 --> 00:25:43,600
would be a non-story, right? 
Because I think there are 

469
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,400
Services out there today that 
don't have SMS capability, 

470
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:48,700
right? 
It's authenticator app or 

471
00:25:48,700 --> 00:25:53,400
nothing, I mean. but if I 
haven't worked for a company 

472
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:59,300
that allowed SMS for logging in 
to the corporate Network, Yeah, 

473
00:25:59,300 --> 00:26:02,900
I think that time that I guess 
the problem that I have with it 

474
00:26:02,900 --> 00:26:05,800
is what do you think the common 
person is going to do? 

475
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:08,900
Do you think they're going to go
through the steps of saying, oh 

476
00:26:09,100 --> 00:26:14,300
I'm going to have to go and set 
up a Microsoft or Google or you 

477
00:26:14,300 --> 00:26:18,400
know, offi authenticator app 
automatically just kind of do 

478
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:19,900
it. 
I just don't see that happening.

479
00:26:19,900 --> 00:26:23,200
I think what's going to happen 
is the people who have SMS 

480
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,900
turned on today, they're gonna 
all of a sudden, not have it. 

481
00:26:26,900 --> 00:26:28,700
And I'm sure there will be like 
email announcement. 

482
00:26:28,900 --> 00:26:31,800
Send whatever may be right to 
kind of go out, but I think the 

483
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,200
vast majority population is 
going to wake up one day and 

484
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,900
just not have SMS, not have any 
MFA on their account. 

485
00:26:38,100 --> 00:26:40,200
And what do people do, they 
reuse passwords? 

486
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:42,700
And all of a sudden you're going
to see this uptick and things 

487
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,000
and then it will be oh well 
should I do this? 

488
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,400
Go of course they should go and 
change to the fennek. 

489
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,400
A wrap ideas, don't think the 
average person is going to 

490
00:26:50,900 --> 00:26:54,500
proactively do that, but I'm 
going to argue with your point 

491
00:26:54,500 --> 00:26:58,200
about it being a money grab 
because if it was money grab 

492
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:00,400
would actually I have to be 
something that people would pay 

493
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,100
for. 
I don't know how we're gonna pay

494
00:27:02,100 --> 00:27:03,700
for this. 
No. 

495
00:27:03,700 --> 00:27:06,300
And I think I think it's a 
cost-saving grab first, but in 

496
00:27:06,300 --> 00:27:10,200
order to recoup it they you 
know, they've started to now you

497
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,700
can become blue check certified,
or whatever, right through 

498
00:27:12,700 --> 00:27:14,600
subscription, which is a whole 
other thing. 

499
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:20,700
It is it is this is not a move 
that is meant to improve or 

500
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,900
improve security. 
This is a move to cut costs. 

501
00:27:24,700 --> 00:27:28,200
And the way I see it MFA is 
table Stakes for any consumer 

502
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:32,700
facing service is you should 
build this into the product that

503
00:27:32,700 --> 00:27:35,000
you're delivering. 
You should have MFA options. 

504
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,900
Now, if you started without SMS 
MFA and there's plenty of 

505
00:27:38,908 --> 00:27:40,600
companies, right? 
They do email Magic, Winx things

506
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:44,700
like that, an email isn't the 
best option either, but I feel 

507
00:27:44,700 --> 00:27:48,700
like if you start with one thing
and then you pull it away later,

508
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:54,100
I think that opens a lot more 
opportunity for things to happen

509
00:27:54,100 --> 00:27:57,500
in a negative aspect. 
I just don't think most of the 

510
00:27:57,500 --> 00:27:58,900
profit. 
I don't have a problem. 

511
00:27:58,900 --> 00:28:01,600
The actual switch, it's the way 
they're doing it. 

512
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:07,800
And just the fact that I think I
don't think most people will go 

513
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,100
through the effort of setting up
another new MFA. 

514
00:28:10,100 --> 00:28:12,800
They already hate most people 
already hate authentication as 

515
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:16,400
it is. 
Yeah, you know, I first heard 

516
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:20,200
about the story I only got at 
the headline level and I thought

517
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:22,700
there was just taking a 
multi-factor authentication for 

518
00:28:22,700 --> 00:28:27,400
everybody and I was like, You 
know, more leaning towards the -

519
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:31,400
I was like, that's horrible. 
But I was also like, it's kind 

520
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:35,000
of a interesting experiment 
because I wonder how many people

521
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:40,600
will put a value on having their
authentication were secured. 

522
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:44,900
Like, well, thousands of people 
wind up paying a dollar a month 

523
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:49,900
for SMS or 44. 
MFA, that would be really 

524
00:28:50,300 --> 00:28:53,300
interesting data to have. 
I still wouldn't think it was a 

525
00:28:53,300 --> 00:28:57,200
good idea at the Level of, okay?
If you have my account and you 

526
00:28:57,208 --> 00:29:02,000
have my password and, you know, 
it's just look a greater chance 

527
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:07,000
of my account being breached or 
your etc etc. 

528
00:29:07,900 --> 00:29:10,000
But at the same time I thought 
it would be interesting 

529
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,900
experiment. 
Now that I understand that they 

530
00:29:12,900 --> 00:29:16,400
actually are you know, basically
saying okay we're going to 

531
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:21,200
monetize or you have to pay for 
a lesser form of security than 

532
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,800
what we offer for free. 
I have action. 

533
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:30,300
Absolutely no problem with it. 
I mean I think it's on par with 

534
00:29:30,300 --> 00:29:35,700
deprecating SMS as a form of MFA
which I think is would be a 

535
00:29:35,708 --> 00:29:39,800
great move. 
I'm in favor of getting rid of 

536
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:40,700
it. 
I just don't think it's the 

537
00:29:40,700 --> 00:29:43,600
right way to do it. 
I don't see Twitter as like the,

538
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,600
you know, the altruist, a team 
of security agents of Hope and, 

539
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:51,200
you know, of do the right thing 
with all the other issues that 

540
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:52,500
they've been having, you know, 
recently. 

541
00:29:52,500 --> 00:29:55,000
But I just don't think this is 
the right way to do it. 

542
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:59,600
It's interesting. 
So I listen to A podcast called 

543
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:01,800
Lenny's podcasts. 
And I'm not going to remember 

544
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:05,300
which episode it was. 
It's one of the top podcast in 

545
00:30:05,300 --> 00:30:07,200
the world. 
Like, remember you had that 

546
00:30:07,500 --> 00:30:10,600
like, that website, that kind of
said, are you? 

547
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:14,100
Here's where podcast Rank and 
identity to Center was one of 

548
00:30:14,108 --> 00:30:17,000
the few. 
I am podcast that was in the top

549
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,300
five percent. 
Think there's one other one that

550
00:30:19,300 --> 00:30:23,700
I saw which was vittorio's. 
Anyway, there are other podcasts

551
00:30:23,700 --> 00:30:25,600
Tyler's do that. 
We're in like the top one 

552
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:29,600
percent like the I listened to 
one called the Bronx Pinstripes 

553
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,700
which is about the Yankees and 
then she Lenny's podcast which 

554
00:30:32,700 --> 00:30:36,400
was like in the top point one 
percent of all podcast and I 

555
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:41,000
mean this guy does like a really
good podcast and has on its 

556
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:45,200
focus on like project product 
managers, mostly from tech 

557
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:47,900
company. 
So like the product manager from

558
00:30:47,900 --> 00:30:51,800
Uber or the product manager from
notion or something like that. 

559
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:56,200
So he had a guy who was either a
current product manager or past 

560
00:30:56,200 --> 00:31:01,500
product manager And he was 
talking about layoffs and like 

561
00:31:02,100 --> 00:31:05,300
is like as long as I don't even 
know if it was at the point 

562
00:31:05,300 --> 00:31:08,600
where Twitter announced layoffs.
But other companies were 

563
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:13,700
announcing some layoffs and like
whether you like it or not it's 

564
00:31:13,700 --> 00:31:15,400
going to improve the company's 
bottom line. 

565
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,300
Third to be a more successful 
company because they do these 

566
00:31:18,300 --> 00:31:22,600
layoffs and that might hurt to 
hear but you know, he's looking 

567
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,900
at it from the standpoint of he 
was involved with like layoffs 

568
00:31:25,900 --> 00:31:27,600
at a lot of different companies 
that have done. 

569
00:31:27,700 --> 00:31:31,300
Research on it. 
And it's like you know that's 

570
00:31:31,300 --> 00:31:33,700
usually what happens with 
companies is that they have 

571
00:31:33,700 --> 00:31:36,400
better numbers after they go 
through these layoffs. 

572
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,600
Oh yeah, you're cutting costs 
bad guy, right? 

573
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:43,800
That's the business side of it. 
I just if you're looking to cut 

574
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,000
costs, I don't know if security 
is the way that I would do it. 

575
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:51,800
Yeah, the security of your user,
especially when your product is 

576
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:53,200
your users, right? 
You're trying to sell 

577
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:54,800
advertising. 
Now, what happens when you've 

578
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,700
got, you know, that's the thing.
That's so compromised. 

579
00:31:57,700 --> 00:32:01,800
That was my point on like, or I 
don't know if the point that I 

580
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:08,400
raised it all yet, but We, I 
think they're trying to take 

581
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,000
Twitter move away from The 
Advertiser base model. 

582
00:32:12,500 --> 00:32:13,900
Well, they're trying to 
diversify for sure. 

583
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:17,500
I mean I think any you know any 
company doesn't want to be 100% 

584
00:32:17,500 --> 00:32:19,000
dependent on any one Revenue 
stream right? 

585
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,000
Everybody does that. 
So yes they were very heavy and 

586
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,600
advertising, they've tried to 
dabble with Mark, you know 

587
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:27,000
subscription in the past. 
I get that right. 

588
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:32,000
You want to monetize essentially
your your most engaged users, 

589
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,200
right? 
Twitter, blue or whatever. 

590
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:36,200
They're calling it for the 
subscription side of things is 

591
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,000
not going to be something that 
80% of their subscribe, you 

592
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,200
know, of their users use, it'll 
probably be. 

593
00:32:41,300 --> 00:32:44,500
More like 1% 5%, something like 
that. 

594
00:32:44,500 --> 00:32:47,200
The whales right? 
It's very similar to Mobile 

595
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,500
gaming free-to-play gaming, 
things like that, you're not 

596
00:32:50,500 --> 00:32:53,100
targeting, you know. 
You're building a mechanism to 

597
00:32:53,100 --> 00:32:56,800
Target the whales the ones who 
will spend 1000 2000, 3000 

598
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,800
dollars on a game. 
Not the ones that will never 

599
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:01,600
spend a dime on it. 
It's the same thing on a 

600
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,900
subscription service, there's a 
lot of free trials out there 

601
00:33:05,300 --> 00:33:08,700
that are limited and that might 
be good enough you know, for 80%

602
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,300
the 20% is where you're going to
make your money and Diversifying

603
00:33:12,300 --> 00:33:15,000
where you have a subscription 
Revenue, you've got ad Revenue, 

604
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,600
totally makes sense. 
You know, they're of course, 

605
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,100
there's other features being 
part of Twitter blew, right? 

606
00:33:20,100 --> 00:33:22,700
Longer posts you can edit posts 
or delete posts, right? 

607
00:33:22,900 --> 00:33:26,800
Stuff like that. 
I just, I just don't feel like 

608
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:30,900
the security aspect of it is 
where that you is, where you go 

609
00:33:30,900 --> 00:33:34,900
to make the costs or make make 
the, you know, to cut costs, 

610
00:33:35,300 --> 00:33:38,000
right. 
But I think he's, I think he's 

611
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:44,000
improving the security so if he 
In improving the security, then 

612
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,900
I would agree. 
How is it improving security, 

613
00:33:46,900 --> 00:33:50,200
though? 
Because the IMF, they're pushing

614
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:54,600
people, who still want to 
choose, I bet you there's like a

615
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,200
large percentage of Twitter 
users are just username 

616
00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:01,100
password, no SMS. 
So, do I think more people are 

617
00:34:01,100 --> 00:34:05,100
going to go from SMS to username
password or more people go from 

618
00:34:05,900 --> 00:34:09,699
SMS to authenticator app. 
I think it's gonna be more 

619
00:34:09,699 --> 00:34:11,199
people move to authenticator 
app. 

620
00:34:11,300 --> 00:34:15,400
But see I think the opposite, I 
think a lot of people just won't

621
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:19,400
do anything at all. 
Until they're forced to change. 

622
00:34:20,500 --> 00:34:24,199
I don't think turning off a 
security feature, is the way to 

623
00:34:24,199 --> 00:34:27,600
force the change. 
I think you do it with a rollout

624
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:33,100
and an incentive program and 
communication and tons of lead 

625
00:34:33,100 --> 00:34:36,100
time to get people and you nag 
them through email or whatever, 

626
00:34:36,100 --> 00:34:39,199
maybe I don't think pulling it 
out in a month. 

627
00:34:39,199 --> 00:34:42,300
Two weeks, whatever the time 
frame is is the right way. 

628
00:34:42,300 --> 00:34:44,500
When you're talking about a 
service that has how many 

629
00:34:44,500 --> 00:34:46,199
millions or billions of users on
it? 

630
00:34:46,500 --> 00:34:48,500
I just feel like of the 
percentages. 

631
00:34:48,500 --> 00:34:52,199
I think a very small, Percentage
will do it in the first. 

632
00:34:53,300 --> 00:34:55,699
Let's call it month even, right?
Maybe they only log in once a 

633
00:34:55,707 --> 00:34:57,800
month, to check it. 
And the meantime, you're gonna 

634
00:34:57,800 --> 00:34:59,900
have a whole bunch of accounts, 
they're going to be totally 

635
00:34:59,900 --> 00:35:04,400
susceptible to password spray 
attacks, whatever may be, and 

636
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:06,000
then they're going to get 
compromised and then those 

637
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,400
people aren't going to be able 
to actually set up their MFA. 

638
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:10,600
They're going to set it up, 
whoever's crack their account 

639
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:12,600
right here to sell it or do 
stupid things with it, or 

640
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:15,400
whatever it may be. 
You know, by the way, the reason

641
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:20,200
I brought the layoffs was as 
actually a side topic because 

642
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:22,900
they think that you felt we were
getting too positive. 

643
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:26,500
No, no, no. 
Yeah, that's me. 

644
00:35:27,300 --> 00:35:33,100
No, because they think that when
Ilan bought the company, He went

645
00:35:33,100 --> 00:35:36,300
out and laid people off, it 
became a very public thing. 

646
00:35:36,300 --> 00:35:38,400
You know. 
It's almost like the way it was 

647
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:47,600
handled was very like, you know,
just not very nice and there was

648
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:51,700
that and then he became very 
active voice on social issues 

649
00:35:51,700 --> 00:35:55,700
and and got into very political 
topics. 

650
00:35:55,900 --> 00:35:59,400
And so then there was what we 
have to get off for a lot of 

651
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:01,000
people, we had to get off the 
Twitter. 

652
00:36:01,700 --> 00:36:05,800
What's this Macedon thing? 
And then like, for me I was 

653
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,300
like, what is he? 
Like I'm doing you just spent 

654
00:36:08,300 --> 00:36:10,800
forty billion dollars on this 
company, and now, like and we 

655
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,000
need to seems like what he's 
trying to do is like drive it 

656
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:17,200
into non-existence. 
I don't think that was his goal 

657
00:36:18,100 --> 00:36:22,500
because now he's gotten, he's, 
he doesn't do this thing's, 

658
00:36:22,500 --> 00:36:24,300
right? 
There's the last that kind of 

659
00:36:24,300 --> 00:36:27,100
Happiness been in the past. 
He's not going out there and 

660
00:36:27,100 --> 00:36:32,600
making these statements this 
much and Look the new Cycles are

661
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:36,300
just so fast these days that 
it's like they've gone up to 

662
00:36:36,300 --> 00:36:40,200
Macedon I think and it's like 
it's not as good. 

663
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:42,500
Like there's not the base of 
people there. 

664
00:36:42,500 --> 00:36:46,400
So it's kind of like, okay, 
well, You know, everybody's back

665
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:48,700
to Twitter. 
Well, that's where the users are

666
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:50,500
anything, you know? 
There were certainly a spike 

667
00:36:50,500 --> 00:36:53,600
where people moved over to 
Mastodon towards like the end of

668
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:56,700
next year but that has certainly
trailed off it has slowed 

669
00:36:56,700 --> 00:36:58,800
significantly. 
I think any competing social 

670
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,000
network where Twitter users were
fleeing to. 

671
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,100
That's been sort of like the 
trend is, we don't like where 

672
00:37:04,100 --> 00:37:06,000
things are going, let's go find 
something new. 

673
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:09,100
They go there and then they sort
of Trail off, right? 

674
00:37:09,100 --> 00:37:11,800
The growth doesn't keep up with 
that spike in demand. 

675
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,000
You know, we're I created a 
mastodon account for us. 

676
00:37:15,100 --> 00:37:19,800
Over the over, the Christmas 
break here over 20 22 and it's 

677
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:21,800
fine. 
My problems with it aren't 

678
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:25,000
necessarily the functionality. 
I think it's actually better 

679
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:27,600
functionality. 
What Twitter has that a there 

680
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,200
aren't as there aren't, you 
know, character, length limits? 

681
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:31,600
So I can put as much things as I
want. 

682
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:35,000
Their, my problems with Mastodon
are two things one. 

683
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:37,100
There's not as many users there.
So people don't have many 

684
00:37:37,100 --> 00:37:40,500
accounts, so it's the distance. 
So the reach isn't what it is. 

685
00:37:40,500 --> 00:37:42,300
On the Twitter side, but that 
makes sense. 

686
00:37:42,300 --> 00:37:43,400
Right? 
There are relatively new 

687
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:47,800
compared to our Twitter's bed. 
And second is the whole this 

688
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:51,000
idea of the Federate Federated 
identity servers and things like

689
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:54,000
that. 
Finding people is a challenge 

690
00:37:54,100 --> 00:37:57,300
because you know, I say the 
Seedy underbelly of the pockets 

691
00:37:57,300 --> 00:38:01,900
of universes like we're at idac 
podcast at infosec dot exchange 

692
00:38:02,300 --> 00:38:04,500
there. 
Very well, could be another at 

693
00:38:04,500 --> 00:38:07,600
idac podcast at some other 
server. 

694
00:38:08,300 --> 00:38:09,600
How do you know which is the 
real one? 

695
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:14,100
And that's the challenge that I 
have a is you know the that 

696
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:17,400
identity validation or 
verification takes place a still

697
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:19,200
think, still needs to be worked 
out. 

698
00:38:19,700 --> 00:38:22,300
I'm not going to go off and 
create idac podcast at every 

699
00:38:22,300 --> 00:38:24,800
single Mass on server because 
literally anybody can start one 

700
00:38:24,900 --> 00:38:26,100
like the just doesn't make 
sense. 

701
00:38:27,100 --> 00:38:29,200
So how do you make sure that 
you're following the right 

702
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:31,800
account? 
And that's the challenge that I 

703
00:38:31,808 --> 00:38:34,500
have of Macedon. 
Sounds confusing? 

704
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:37,400
Yeah, but I like the product 
products find, I mean, it works.

705
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:43,100
Its functional can put my videos
and and put my, my she may show 

706
00:38:43,100 --> 00:38:44,400
announcements and things like 
that on there. 

707
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,400
I don't have to figure out how 
to fit it within a certain, you 

708
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:49,700
know, character limit that you 
know, that Twitter has you had 

709
00:38:49,700 --> 00:38:51,600
never liked the character limit.
Yeah. 

710
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:54,100
Well, if you want to, you can 
become a subscriber and you can 

711
00:38:54,100 --> 00:38:56,800
post a long form and you can pay
Twitter, X dollars a month and 

712
00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,200
you can do it. 
Yeah, I haven't been on Twitter 

713
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:03,000
and in years I mean I 
accidentally clicked like every 

714
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:06,000
once in a while like we're 
living our profile try like 

715
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:07,900
media person. 
I think LinkedIn is probably 

716
00:39:07,900 --> 00:39:10,000
your primary one, right? 
Definitely. 

717
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:11,300
Definitely. 
And that's the same thing for 

718
00:39:11,300 --> 00:39:12,300
me. 
I mean, the only time I go on 

719
00:39:12,300 --> 00:39:14,300
social media really is for the 
podcast type stuff. 

720
00:39:14,300 --> 00:39:16,800
Or if there's something maybe at
work related, that kind of thing

721
00:39:17,300 --> 00:39:21,100
and you and I think we get the 
vast majority of our engagement 

722
00:39:21,100 --> 00:39:22,900
comes on LinkedIn anyway. 
And that's why I try to keep 

723
00:39:22,900 --> 00:39:27,500
LinkedIn clean from a you know, 
from a Content perspective, I 

724
00:39:27,508 --> 00:39:30,300
hear there's a post about 
identity and access management 

725
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:32,700
Or something related, hopefully 
or the podcast right? 

726
00:39:32,700 --> 00:39:34,000
That kind of thing. 
Right. 

727
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:38,000
Right definitely true. 
So what does it sounds like plan

728
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:40,200
for this episode? 
What's that? 

729
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:42,400
What else do we have planned for
this episode? 

730
00:39:42,900 --> 00:39:45,400
Yeah, we're going to let's work 
through a couple different clips

731
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:49,700
here. 
Let's see, let's start with 

732
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:54,000
number 91, he recanted you want 
to, don't you reckon play the 

733
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:58,000
clip from episode one, huh? 
No, I'm not gonna. 

734
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:01,800
It's it just makes my ears 
Grinch if you, if you want to 

735
00:40:01,808 --> 00:40:03,700
listen to it. 
You're not taking it down, it's 

736
00:40:03,700 --> 00:40:05,800
still out there, right? 
It's a time capsule as we've 

737
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:09,800
said all along right episode 1, 
the content I think is good. 

738
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,300
Do I think it's our best episode
ever know because it was our 

739
00:40:12,300 --> 00:40:14,000
first episode, we had no idea 
what we're doing. 

740
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:16,200
I certainly didn't know what I 
was doing from an editing. 

741
00:40:16,700 --> 00:40:20,400
My voice is very Echoey animal 
is a silver, emotional season, 2

742
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:23,200
episode. 
It's number two, number two, I 

743
00:40:23,207 --> 00:40:24,900
think that's the great thing 
about this podcast is you don't 

744
00:40:24,900 --> 00:40:26,200
have to like start from the 
beginning. 

745
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:30,700
A lot of people will start. 
They either start with 101 which

746
00:40:30,700 --> 00:40:35,000
is Sarah such as chickadee when 
we talk about AWS Cognito and ID

747
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:38,700
Pro, or they start with one and 
I wonder if at some point, is it

748
00:40:38,707 --> 00:40:42,400
go in the future? 
If 201 or 200 will be one that 

749
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:44,100
people start with? 
They don't go all the way back 

750
00:40:44,100 --> 00:40:47,100
in time, then maybe pick kind of
spot, but all of our episodes 

751
00:40:47,100 --> 00:40:50,200
are You know individual topics 
self-contained. 

752
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:52,400
It's not like you need to be 
listening episode 1. 

753
00:40:52,900 --> 00:40:55,500
You know, we're not a Serial. 
Yeah, that where you have to 

754
00:40:55,500 --> 00:40:58,000
like know the backstory we're 
talking about identity, we're 

755
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:01,100
not we're not surprising anybody
so you could just go backwards. 

756
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:03,900
Start at the top and work your 
way backwards. 

757
00:41:03,900 --> 00:41:04,400
Yeah. 
Good. 

758
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:05,400
Yeah. 
Please do please. 

759
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:06,700
Listen to all of them. 
That's great. 

760
00:41:09,300 --> 00:41:11,100
Do you want to start? 
Let's start with Erik Anderson. 

761
00:41:11,500 --> 00:41:13,300
I think he's one of your nice 
favorite guests. 

762
00:41:13,300 --> 00:41:15,600
We've had and we've met him a 
couple times now at a couple 

763
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:17,900
different conferences. 
Do you want to preview episode? 

764
00:41:18,100 --> 00:41:19,500
Anyone you want me to just play 
the clip? 

765
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:22,100
Let's just play the clip and 
we'll talk about it. 

766
00:41:22,100 --> 00:41:26,800
I mean the fact that Eric is the
C so at Adobe. 

767
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:31,600
Okay, so here it is. 
So for us are zero trust 

768
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:35,400
program, we dubbed it then at 
the beginning as an acronym for 

769
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:40,700
zero, trust Enterprise Network 
we started looking at zero trust

770
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:44,500
about three years ago now, 
Google was starting to advertise

771
00:41:44,500 --> 00:41:46,300
and talk a lot about their 
program. 

772
00:41:46,500 --> 00:41:49,500
We had met with some of our 
Their peer companies about what 

773
00:41:49,500 --> 00:41:51,100
they were looking at in the 
field. 

774
00:41:52,300 --> 00:41:57,000
We were very excited about the 
idea and how we could do it. 

775
00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:03,000
And at the time, there wasn't a 
single vendor solution to do it.

776
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:07,100
So we started looking at trying 
to figure out what are the base 

777
00:42:07,100 --> 00:42:09,300
pieces, you needed to make zero 
trust work. 

778
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:13,300
How could we leverage our 
existing Investments and what 

779
00:42:13,300 --> 00:42:14,800
were the little pieces we 
needed? 

780
00:42:15,900 --> 00:42:19,500
So we took that to heart and 
started working with our 

781
00:42:19,500 --> 00:42:23,100
existing companies vendors that 
we are working with with and 

782
00:42:23,100 --> 00:42:25,200
figuring out how could we start 
stitching stuff together and the

783
00:42:25,207 --> 00:42:29,900
Mantra was deliver something 
quickly using existing 

784
00:42:29,900 --> 00:42:32,700
technology and minimize our 
investment. 

785
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:36,300
So it really caused us to be 
super creative, reach out and 

786
00:42:36,300 --> 00:42:41,400
extend and use the Partnerships.
We had across the industry and 

787
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:47,000
we wound up in mid-summer 2018 
launching our first kind of 

788
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:51,300
version of zero trust and one of
the mantras that we had with it 

789
00:42:51,300 --> 00:42:56,800
was we wanted an easier and a 
better user experience while 

790
00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:59,600
increasing security which I 
think is a lot of the Mantra 10,

791
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:02,300
press delivers. 
One of the few chances you get 

792
00:43:02,300 --> 00:43:04,900
to actually make things more 
secure with making user 

793
00:43:04,900 --> 00:43:07,800
experience better and so we've 
been piloting it and playing 

794
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:11,500
around with it and then we 
acquired a couple companies that

795
00:43:11,500 --> 00:43:17,500
summer and they had some 
Employees are locations that we 

796
00:43:17,500 --> 00:43:21,100
weren't too enthusiastic about 
linking up the networks and the 

797
00:43:21,100 --> 00:43:24,200
data centers together. 
So we decided as a perfect 

798
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:28,200
Pilots, if he could, we at 
scale, deploys are on trust. 

799
00:43:28,300 --> 00:43:31,900
Normally, when you onboard a new
employee from an acquisition, 

800
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:36,100
you would go in and do a touch 
and connect them through VPN and

801
00:43:36,100 --> 00:43:38,900
onto the networks. 
And in this case, we decided 

802
00:43:38,900 --> 00:43:41,500
let's deploy. 
Our certificates are zero. 

803
00:43:41,500 --> 00:43:45,000
Trust is based on certificate. 
Authentication and device scores

804
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:46,900
on that front and get them 
access to what they needed 

805
00:43:46,900 --> 00:43:52,500
without needing VPS. 
And it was super successful. 

806
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:59,000
It allowed us to go from about 
50 users to 1,000 users in less 

807
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:01,800
than a month and then it took 
off from there. 

808
00:44:03,700 --> 00:44:07,400
So that was Eric talking about 
his zero, trust journey and 

809
00:44:07,500 --> 00:44:09,200
stinks. 
I think still one of the few 

810
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:11,400
organizations that I've taught 
you that actually was ahead of 

811
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:13,600
the curve on it. 
It's actually doing it pretty 

812
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:16,100
well in real life. 
What do you think? 

813
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:21,100
I think for playing 20 trust, 
drinking game, we'd be in big 

814
00:44:21,100 --> 00:44:26,400
trouble now but now I mean, 
Eric's just such a bright guy 

815
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:33,100
and I think He typifies cisos in
that break out. 

816
00:44:33,100 --> 00:44:37,000
A lot of Industry experience 
who's now dedicating all of his 

817
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:43,100
work life to the betterment of 
his company and a couple things 

818
00:44:43,100 --> 00:44:48,700
I took away from there was you 
know he wants to your leverage a

819
00:44:48,707 --> 00:44:52,000
lot of the existing technology 
that he is companies already 

820
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:56,200
invested in. 
I think that's a big factor that

821
00:44:56,200 --> 00:45:01,500
we take into account when we do.
Strategy advisory is like, okay,

822
00:45:01,500 --> 00:45:02,900
well, what do you have in place 
today? 

823
00:45:03,100 --> 00:45:06,200
What's reusable, what's what's 
the stuff that you want to throw

824
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:08,300
away? 
Because you're not getting value

825
00:45:08,300 --> 00:45:11,700
out of it or maybe the 
relationships going sour? 

826
00:45:11,900 --> 00:45:15,700
And I think, you know what, I 
heard come through in his talk, 

827
00:45:15,700 --> 00:45:18,500
there was that, you know, there 
are certain technologies that we

828
00:45:18,500 --> 00:45:21,800
could leverage and get more out 
of their certain relationships. 

829
00:45:23,100 --> 00:45:26,000
And when I hear the relationship
useless, like I've had good 

830
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:30,200
experience with these people and
I know I feel like I can count 

831
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:34,800
on them to go that extra mile 
for me and I'm confident that 

832
00:45:34,900 --> 00:45:37,800
they're going to work in my best
interest, you know, Jeff you and

833
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:41,300
I've always talked about, you 
know, how do you deliver a 

834
00:45:41,300 --> 00:45:45,100
vendor agnostic advisory, you 
know, develop a company strategy

835
00:45:45,100 --> 00:45:48,600
when your company sells services
and specializes in certain 

836
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:50,300
Technologies, right? 
How do you keep it? 

837
00:45:50,500 --> 00:45:53,300
How do you keep it real? 
And I've always said, well, you 

838
00:45:53,300 --> 00:45:56,100
put yourself in the shoes of the
client and you say, what would I

839
00:45:56,100 --> 00:45:59,300
do if I were you and that? 
And if you work from That and 

840
00:45:59,300 --> 00:46:02,800
that's truly your direction. 
Then you don't have a problem 

841
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:07,500
being vendor agnostic. 
So I kind of feel like, you 

842
00:46:07,500 --> 00:46:09,500
know, some of those things are 
coming through and what Eric had

843
00:46:09,500 --> 00:46:11,900
to say? 
Yeah. 

844
00:46:11,900 --> 00:46:13,900
I feel like replacing 
Technologies typically the 

845
00:46:13,900 --> 00:46:16,500
nuclear options. 
So let's figure out how we can 

846
00:46:16,500 --> 00:46:17,700
work with. 
We have now it doesn't work, it 

847
00:46:17,700 --> 00:46:20,300
doesn't work, but I think the 
default position is you want to 

848
00:46:20,300 --> 00:46:24,900
try and be economical right with
resources is where you can. 

849
00:46:24,900 --> 00:46:29,500
If you've got a tool that you 
know maybe it's not Say, but you

850
00:46:29,500 --> 00:46:31,900
think can work, let's go with 
it, right? 

851
00:46:33,700 --> 00:46:37,100
Rip and replaces is just as a 
whole other Beast, it's 

852
00:46:37,100 --> 00:46:40,500
expensive. 
And the other thing is like you 

853
00:46:40,500 --> 00:46:44,700
know, a lot of times if you have
a lot of investments in, you 

854
00:46:44,707 --> 00:46:48,000
never get them rolled out, you 
wind up with that idea of shelf 

855
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:51,500
where where you're paying for an
investment that you're not 

856
00:46:51,500 --> 00:46:54,400
getting any value out of or 
maybe minimal value. 

857
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:58,400
If all you ever do is that mvp 
implementation, you never go 

858
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:00,400
beyond that. 
That it's like you bought into 

859
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:03,200
this big dream and you're 
getting very little value out of

860
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:05,700
it. 
So I think it makes sense that 

861
00:47:05,700 --> 00:47:08,900
every couple of years or 
something, you're looking at 

862
00:47:08,900 --> 00:47:12,200
those types of Investments as 
well as saying either look, this

863
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:15,700
is part of our big Vision. 
We're going to invest and get 

864
00:47:15,700 --> 00:47:18,600
the most out of this software or
we're going to unroll the 

865
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:21,200
investment that we made and cut 
ties with it. 

866
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:22,800
Yeah. 
I mean, there's a lot of 

867
00:47:22,808 --> 00:47:25,400
companies that have the, you 
know, literally, the best 

868
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:28,600
products in the world, right? 
We're talking the upper rights, 

869
00:47:28,700 --> 00:47:32,400
the rights for all the different
Gartner, you know, and covering 

870
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:35,400
or coal or and Forrester analyst
reports, right? 

871
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:37,400
All that stuff, whether I 
considered like the best. 

872
00:47:37,700 --> 00:47:40,700
There's a lot of companies that 
have the best products and still

873
00:47:40,700 --> 00:47:43,700
struggle with it, and they don't
get the value out of it because 

874
00:47:43,700 --> 00:47:47,400
they just get to that mvp 
process and they kind of Peter 

875
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:49,400
out from there. 
They don't keep things cared 

876
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:50,700
fed. 
They're not keeping things 

877
00:47:50,700 --> 00:47:52,600
updated. 
And We're say there's a lot of 

878
00:47:52,607 --> 00:47:55,200
products out there that don't 
keep up with the market as well.

879
00:47:55,300 --> 00:47:57,500
Right. 
I think, you know, Legacy 

880
00:47:57,500 --> 00:47:59,200
products that have been out 
there for a while. 

881
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:03,300
The newer SAS based, you know, 
young upstarts that are in the 

882
00:48:03,300 --> 00:48:05,700
identity space came and took a 
lot of people's lunch. 

883
00:48:05,900 --> 00:48:10,400
Specifically like the idea of a 
space that is always a risk 

884
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:11,000
adapt. 
Right. 

885
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:13,500
What's next? 
You know, may is it Cloud 

886
00:48:13,500 --> 00:48:15,400
infrastructure entitlement 
management is it? 

887
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:18,900
I TD R II, you know, identity 
threat, detection response, you 

888
00:48:18,900 --> 00:48:20,200
know? 
Is it a? 

889
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:21,600
I am. 
I mean there's there's a bunch 

890
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:23,000
of New stuff that's coming 
along. 

891
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:26,900
And not only do you as an 
organization, you know, 

892
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:30,700
implementing these Services need
to keep up the vendors that 

893
00:48:30,700 --> 00:48:33,000
you're working with and the 
products using those need to 

894
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:35,000
keep up as well. 
That's right. 

895
00:48:35,900 --> 00:48:37,100
All right. 
Let's get the next one because 

896
00:48:37,100 --> 00:48:40,300
speaking of see IEM Cloud 
infrastructure and title in 

897
00:48:40,300 --> 00:48:43,400
manic that cloud infrastructure.
Entitlement management. 

898
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:49,300
We had John Morton from Britain 
of on board for episode 115. 

899
00:48:49,300 --> 00:48:52,800
Let me play that clip now. 
Believe privilege is a great 

900
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:55,900
idea, but here's my beef, with 
least privilege it is. 

901
00:48:55,900 --> 00:49:00,300
Very human Centric. 
What's the other difference that

902
00:49:00,300 --> 00:49:02,000
I talked about a lot with the 
cloud? 

903
00:49:02,500 --> 00:49:06,500
We want to move fast at the 
speed of service identity at the

904
00:49:06,500 --> 00:49:10,300
speed of machines. 
When you are trying to analyze 

905
00:49:10,500 --> 00:49:14,700
least privilege from some sort 
of visibility and you have 

906
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:19,100
potentially hundreds of 
thousands of environment roles 

907
00:49:19,700 --> 00:49:23,800
privileges policies. 
Inline policies, it is a losing 

908
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:27,500
battle. 
Why not go to a method of zero 

909
00:49:27,500 --> 00:49:31,300
standing privileges? 
That meaning if you have to have

910
00:49:31,300 --> 00:49:35,300
a user account you have no 
privileges until you actually 

911
00:49:35,300 --> 00:49:38,100
need them. 
When you need them, you can 

912
00:49:38,100 --> 00:49:40,800
check them out. 
You can use them for as long as 

913
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:44,400
you want and you give them back 
anybody who's ever been in the 

914
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:46,000
military. 
It's a very similar idea. 

915
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:50,400
I used to work on a nuclear 
submarine, we had roving watches

916
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:52,900
on top and we have Had service 
Duty guns. 

917
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:55,100
We didn't say, hey we're hoping 
watch. 

918
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:58,100
You have duty in eight days. 
Let me go ahead and give you 

919
00:49:58,100 --> 00:49:59,900
this gun. 
I'm not going to give you 

920
00:49:59,900 --> 00:50:02,800
bullets, but you just have the 
gun because part of your role, 

921
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:06,400
go ahead and keep it. 
We had a method of, when you 

922
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:08,900
need the gun, you checked it 
out, you got the bullets, you 

923
00:50:08,900 --> 00:50:11,600
needed, you stood, your watch, 
you check the gun back in. 

924
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:15,100
We need to move fast. 
So to me least privilege, is 

925
00:50:15,100 --> 00:50:18,200
that idea of? 
Let's try to get to some sort of

926
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:21,300
our back and that's where I do 
have beef because in the the 

927
00:50:21,300 --> 00:50:24,300
cloud as I just completely 
mentioned, sometimes you don't 

928
00:50:24,300 --> 00:50:27,400
even need user account. 
I can give you a user account on

929
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:30,100
demand when you need it with the
axis it needs and then take it 

930
00:50:30,100 --> 00:50:32,200
away. 
That reduces risk. 

931
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:35,300
I would love to hear someone 
argue the other side of that. 

932
00:50:35,700 --> 00:50:38,700
I want to hear just someone 
argue against the Euro standing 

933
00:50:38,700 --> 00:50:41,500
privileges. 
Well, he's not going to get that

934
00:50:41,500 --> 00:50:45,100
argument because I love the idea
of zero standing privileges. 

935
00:50:45,500 --> 00:50:49,700
The idea of the fact that nobody
has access or has only the most 

936
00:50:49,700 --> 00:50:52,900
basic things. 
They need a cafeteria menu, some

937
00:50:52,900 --> 00:50:55,600
internal SharePoint Internet 
site, something like that, but I

938
00:50:55,600 --> 00:50:59,400
love the idea of zero standing 
privileges, I think it is a nice

939
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:03,200
goal to get to how realistic it 
is, for organizations. 

940
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:05,400
I think that it requires a lot 
of technology, and Automation, 

941
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:09,500
and maturity in their structure 
to be able to actually make that

942
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:11,300
That a real thing in the real 
world, what do you think? 

943
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:19,200
Yeah, I mean so the reason I 
think we picked John John's clip

944
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:21,400
a couple reasons. 
One, I think it's really good 

945
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:25,900
clip, but the other is just 
trying to show kind of like the 

946
00:51:25,900 --> 00:51:28,700
podcast. 
We've had see such as we've had 

947
00:51:28,700 --> 00:51:32,600
folks like John, who are like 
deep technology, like, in his 

948
00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:38,000
area deep technology Wizards, 
and we've had people on our 

949
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:43,500
cross, the Spectrum of, you 
know, I am domains who are like 

950
00:51:43,500 --> 00:51:46,500
John and we'll talk through like
the identi rathi. 

951
00:51:46,700 --> 00:51:51,200
We'll talk through some of the 
clips for like, CEOs of these 

952
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:53,300
up-and-coming Technologies as 
well. 

953
00:51:53,300 --> 00:51:57,800
So that's kind of like the 
spectrum of folks that we get in

954
00:51:57,808 --> 00:52:01,500
the podcast. 
But specific to The Domain topic

955
00:52:01,500 --> 00:52:06,200
that John brought up, you know, 
I think that, you know, it's for

956
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:09,400
some organizations getting to 
least privilege and are back. 

957
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:12,300
Model would be a huge 
improvement over where they are.

958
00:52:12,300 --> 00:52:17,300
At the moment, the zero standing
privileges, I think makes a ton 

959
00:52:17,300 --> 00:52:21,400
of sense as well. 
And I think this is the point 

960
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:25,200
that you're making is like if 
you have a level of maturity to 

961
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:28,400
go to that. 
I think, almost everyone now 

962
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:32,600
understands least privilege and 
role-based access control which 

963
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:34,800
makes it easier to strive for 
and fewer. 

964
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:38,000
People understand the zero 
standing privileges even though 

965
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:41,500
I think that is too. 
Directionally the right way from

966
00:52:41,500 --> 00:52:45,000
a security standpoint. 
Yeah, I agree. 

967
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:49,300
All right, this next one, I 
think is one of our favorite 

968
00:52:49,300 --> 00:52:52,000
episodes, for sure. 
It's episode, 151. 

969
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:55,300
What's the difference between 
digital identity and identity 

970
00:52:55,300 --> 00:52:58,300
and access management? 
We had a lot of different 

971
00:52:58,300 --> 00:52:59,700
answers. 
This is one where we crowd 

972
00:52:59,700 --> 00:53:02,100
sourced, a lot of different 
thoughts from some of the 

973
00:53:02,100 --> 00:53:05,500
identity that are out there and 
I think this clip is me kind of 

974
00:53:05,500 --> 00:53:08,200
setting the stage that. 
So, let me play that here real 

975
00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:11,700
quick. 
Has the definition of identity 

976
00:53:11,700 --> 00:53:14,000
and access management change 
because I feel like it kind of 

977
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:17,300
has and there's a lot of 
different terms sometimes used 

978
00:53:17,300 --> 00:53:22,200
for this right digital identity.
I am I DM you know all different

979
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:24,400
color of identity words that 
could be out there. 

980
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:26,300
I thought was that it will be 
interesting to get you know some

981
00:53:26,300 --> 00:53:30,400
of the identity as we like to 
say, you know, on the show in 

982
00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:33,400
some way and kind of have a 
Roundtable discussion and then 

983
00:53:33,500 --> 00:53:35,700
actually you had the brilliant 
idea was I want to we just asked

984
00:53:35,700 --> 00:53:40,500
people the question and have 
them email in In there are audio

985
00:53:40,500 --> 00:53:43,700
response, so I guess Jim. 
Do you want to kind of take you 

986
00:53:43,700 --> 00:53:46,500
take us through the process of 
how we got to where we are 

987
00:53:46,500 --> 00:53:47,800
today. 
And from your perspective, I 

988
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:51,300
think what happened was MD kept 
saying, digital identity, 

989
00:53:51,300 --> 00:53:54,200
digital identity, and I thought 
to myself, whatever happened to 

990
00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:56,600
I am. 
And so I asked him that 

991
00:53:56,600 --> 00:53:57,900
question. 
What's the difference between 

992
00:53:57,900 --> 00:54:01,400
digital identity and I am and it
kind of stumped them, right? 

993
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:04,200
And he's like well this is a 
longer answer. 

994
00:54:04,300 --> 00:54:08,800
This would be a longer answer 
than we have time for in, you 

995
00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:10,800
know. 
A little bit of the episode so 

996
00:54:10,900 --> 00:54:12,400
are we making a follow-up 
episode? 

997
00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:16,000
And then from there we kind of 
as you mentioned evolve the idea

998
00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:19,600
to this kind of Round Table and 
we're going to go through the 

999
00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:22,500
recordings that were submitted. 
Yeah, the way it worked was you 

1000
00:54:22,500 --> 00:54:26,100
know, Jim spammed everybody that
we could think of sending email 

1001
00:54:26,100 --> 00:54:29,300
to say hey here's the question. 
If you wanted to record like a 2

1002
00:54:29,300 --> 00:54:32,300
to 3 minute sort of answer on 
what your thoughts are and the 

1003
00:54:32,308 --> 00:54:35,300
question that we posed to 
everyone, was this, what's the 

1004
00:54:35,300 --> 00:54:38,500
difference between digital 
identity and identity and access

1005
00:54:38,500 --> 00:54:39,900
management? 
Aren't we kind of looking to 

1006
00:54:39,900 --> 00:54:41,200
see? 
You know what the different 

1007
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:44,600
responses were we got responses 
from a few different people, we 

1008
00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:47,900
have Ann Glaser, he's the senior
vice president identity product 

1009
00:54:47,900 --> 00:54:50,100
management at Salesforce. 
He's a friend of the show. 

1010
00:54:50,100 --> 00:54:52,200
But on the show before Sarah 
such a tea. 

1011
00:54:52,300 --> 00:54:55,100
She's the head of product for 
Amazon Cognito, another person 

1012
00:54:55,100 --> 00:54:57,000
who's been on the show, actually
all these people have gone to 

1013
00:54:57,000 --> 00:55:00,300
show Eve, mailer, Chief 
technology officer at four 

1014
00:55:00,300 --> 00:55:02,300
drops. 
We've got Adam Michael, who's a 

1015
00:55:02,308 --> 00:55:06,000
data management officer and 
director for it risk identity 

1016
00:55:06,100 --> 00:55:08,900
and adjunct professor at Texas 
A&M University. 

1017
00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:10,700
T. 
And then our old friend Jamie 

1018
00:55:10,700 --> 00:55:12,800
Lewis Pros. 
Who's vice president Solutions, 

1019
00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:14,700
engineering and strategy at 
stadiums. 

1020
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:19,400
So we got a lot of good answers 
to that question out there and 

1021
00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:21,300
we've talked about this a few 
times with a few different 

1022
00:55:21,300 --> 00:55:23,900
guest. 
I think the Andy handle I think 

1023
00:55:23,900 --> 00:55:25,500
this is a question. 
You would ask in a previous 

1024
00:55:25,500 --> 00:55:29,500
episode, like, right before and 
then we got, you know, responses

1025
00:55:29,500 --> 00:55:32,000
from everybody. 
And I think what struck me was, 

1026
00:55:32,100 --> 00:55:35,900
how different everyone's answers
were. 

1027
00:55:35,900 --> 00:55:38,200
And for the most part, still 
kind of generally aligned with 

1028
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:42,100
the exception of Adam who had a 
totally different take on it and

1029
00:55:42,100 --> 00:55:45,200
he kind of flipped it on its 
head a little bit and I They're 

1030
00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:48,000
still to this day. 
If that is because he's not a 

1031
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:52,800
identity product or service 
person, he is in the real world.

1032
00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:55,000
Is I'll call it right? 
Yeah. 

1033
00:55:55,100 --> 00:55:57,100
What do you think? 
He's a true practitioner, right?

1034
00:55:57,100 --> 00:56:03,500
So by the way, I've been in 
touch with Adam, he's offered to

1035
00:56:03,500 --> 00:56:07,400
come back on the show to talk 
about Dev SEC, Ops and Iams 

1036
00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:10,400
Roland F PSI cops. 
Oh, that's going to come happen.

1037
00:56:10,500 --> 00:56:12,900
Yeah, that's happened this year.
That's gonna be a fantastic one.

1038
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:14,900
He did have a different 
perspective. 

1039
00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:20,200
But, you know, it's like as 
you're playing those clips, my 

1040
00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:23,300
opinion kept changing. 
We've recorded with Eve the 

1041
00:56:23,300 --> 00:56:26,500
other day and I was listening to
her answer and I was like, oh 

1042
00:56:26,500 --> 00:56:29,500
yeah, yeah that I agree with 
Yvonne this one, right? 

1043
00:56:29,500 --> 00:56:33,000
So her perspective was like 
digital identities to seeing an 

1044
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:36,000
identity access management is 
the management of that thing. 

1045
00:56:36,500 --> 00:56:40,800
I'm like yeah, that kind of 
makes sense to me, but I think 

1046
00:56:40,900 --> 00:56:44,700
also kind of going back to fried
entities definition, which is 

1047
00:56:44,700 --> 00:56:48,900
like Like it's a football. 
So like how you use the term 

1048
00:56:48,900 --> 00:56:54,300
digital identity is like, is it 
the physical ball or is it this 

1049
00:56:54,300 --> 00:56:57,000
concept of a game? 
There's Global game called 

1050
00:56:57,000 --> 00:57:00,700
football. 
So I thought that was really 

1051
00:57:00,700 --> 00:57:03,800
good because I think we use the 
terms interchangeably, which 

1052
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:07,000
doesn't mean that that's right 
to do, but I think the 

1053
00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:11,300
definition of a word does change
over time based on how the term 

1054
00:57:11,300 --> 00:57:14,100
is used. 
Yeah, context matters. 

1055
00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:16,800
That that's the way I think it 
was like, it's a blob. 

1056
00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:21,000
It's a piece of Play-Doh or a 
Lego set, and you can make it 

1057
00:57:21,100 --> 00:57:24,100
kind of, look, whatever you're 
trying to do and it matters who 

1058
00:57:24,100 --> 00:57:26,100
you're talking to, and all that 
good stuff. 

1059
00:57:26,200 --> 00:57:29,200
The last thing I'll say about 
that episode though is like, if 

1060
00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:32,300
somebody asked me like, hey I 
want to listen to one episode of

1061
00:57:32,300 --> 00:57:34,600
your podcast, which one would 
you recommend? 

1062
00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:38,200
That's the 1151. 
Yeah, that's a good one to kind 

1063
00:57:38,200 --> 00:57:41,200
of really get a good 
distillation of all the 

1064
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:45,000
different things that kind of go
on in our Let's go ahead and 

1065
00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:49,400
move on to episode number 166. 
This is something that we 

1066
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:52,300
actually recorded with head 
covitz from Silver. 

1067
00:57:52,300 --> 00:57:57,300
For while we were at Gartner up 
in the RSM sweet, the sweet 

1068
00:57:57,300 --> 00:58:00,100
sweet, sweet referring to it all
that week. 

1069
00:58:00,700 --> 00:58:04,400
Let me go ahead and play that. 
Now for a long time, identity 

1070
00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:09,400
security was kind of mixed into 
just I am identity 

1071
00:58:09,400 --> 00:58:12,500
infrastructure, you know, if you
have an eye. 

1072
00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:14,900
I am platform. 
It has some security features, 

1073
00:58:14,900 --> 00:58:18,800
obviously, but I think we got to
a point, well, because there are

1074
00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:21,400
so many attacks that are 
leveraging, stolen identities 

1075
00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:24,200
and credentials, people are 
realizing that we need to look 

1076
00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:27,300
at identity security as a 
standalone thing that we have to

1077
00:58:27,300 --> 00:58:31,100
solve. 
And it kind of can't be a 

1078
00:58:31,100 --> 00:58:34,800
feature in the identity platform
because most companies have a 

1079
00:58:34,800 --> 00:58:36,500
few different identity 
platforms. 

1080
00:58:36,600 --> 00:58:38,900
They have, they have active 
directory, on-prem, and they 

1081
00:58:38,900 --> 00:58:43,400
have a GED or OCTA in the cloud 
and they have Full do privileged

1082
00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:46,300
access management and they have 
something in the perimeter and 

1083
00:58:46,300 --> 00:58:49,200
all of these all from different 
vendors that are competing with 

1084
00:58:49,200 --> 00:58:53,700
each other. 
So there has to be a standalone 

1085
00:58:53,900 --> 00:58:58,900
category or solution that would 
look at identity sets. 

1086
00:58:58,900 --> 00:59:03,300
A course all these things and 
really focus on on the securing 

1087
00:59:03,300 --> 00:59:06,900
the identities securing these. 
This is attack surface that 

1088
00:59:06,900 --> 00:59:08,900
people I think for a long time 
didn't really think about it as 

1089
00:59:08,900 --> 00:59:12,500
a major attack surface but it is
you know, one of the biggest 

1090
00:59:12,600 --> 00:59:14,600
First. 
We see that with every rainstorm

1091
00:59:14,600 --> 00:59:16,100
or attack. 
All right. 

1092
00:59:16,100 --> 00:59:19,100
Willie just spreads in the 
network, so easily. 

1093
00:59:19,400 --> 00:59:22,500
No matter what kind of security 
tools you have simply because 

1094
00:59:22,900 --> 00:59:25,900
you can take, you know, stolen 
account for active directory, 

1095
00:59:25,900 --> 00:59:28,000
and use it to move to any other 
computer in the network. 

1096
00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:32,300
Nobody will stop you. 
So I TDR is really about 

1097
00:59:32,600 --> 00:59:35,900
detecting and stopping this 
disease, entity threats and 

1098
00:59:35,900 --> 00:59:38,100
looking at identity as an attack
surface. 

1099
00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:43,900
What do you think? 
Every reshot the head 

1100
00:59:43,900 --> 00:59:47,500
Courvoisier to get them onto the
podcast and just thinking, okay 

1101
00:59:47,500 --> 00:59:54,000
here's a normal guy who started 
this company, can't wait to, you

1102
00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:55,900
know, kind of hear what his 
opinions were. 

1103
00:59:56,300 --> 00:59:58,900
We got him recording. 
I was like, oh my God, this 

1104
00:59:58,900 --> 01:00:03,300
guy's like a genius, like he 
actually is really plugged in. 

1105
01:00:03,300 --> 01:00:08,900
So again a great episode to go, 
listen to head is you know, part

1106
01:00:08,900 --> 01:00:14,500
of this Like group is CEOs and 
Founders coming out of Israel, 

1107
01:00:15,600 --> 01:00:19,100
who, I mean, they're creating 
the next generation of I am 

1108
01:00:19,100 --> 01:00:24,200
products, I think realistically,
but I, you know, specific to, I 

1109
01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:32,100
TDR, I kind of feel like, you 
know, the, the traditional it 

1110
01:00:32,100 --> 01:00:37,700
security umbrella has kind of 
looked at things from an IP 

1111
01:00:37,700 --> 01:00:40,700
address standpoint. 
So if If things are happening on

1112
01:00:40,700 --> 01:00:44,100
the network from certain IP 
addresses, like we would pick up

1113
01:00:44,100 --> 01:00:48,400
signals based on IP this next 
generation of tools. 

1114
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:52,500
Like, identity threat, detection
response is really taking a lot 

1115
01:00:52,500 --> 01:00:56,300
of the same Concepts and basing 
them on identity because now 

1116
01:00:56,300 --> 01:01:01,500
it's like, you can take not only
the I the network level but you 

1117
01:01:01,508 --> 01:01:04,900
can also take the identity level
and look for things that are 

1118
01:01:04,900 --> 01:01:08,500
happening from an identity or 
somebody who's trying to maybe 

1119
01:01:09,300 --> 01:01:14,900
Is an identity footprint and use
it over multiple devices to 

1120
01:01:14,900 --> 01:01:20,700
attack the network. 
So to me it's it's it's kind of 

1121
01:01:20,700 --> 01:01:24,000
an evolution but an important 
Evolution because I think 

1122
01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:30,700
usually the way that breaches 
occur is by people getting hold 

1123
01:01:30,700 --> 01:01:33,500
of some credentials and trying 
to leverage those credentials 

1124
01:01:33,500 --> 01:01:37,400
and they're going to use them in
ways that would be unnatural for

1125
01:01:37,400 --> 01:01:42,300
a Zur to use them. 
So those are important signals 

1126
01:01:42,300 --> 01:01:45,400
because one of the things that 
you know, I think the catch 

1127
01:01:45,400 --> 01:01:49,600
phrase that Maybe the, I'm the 
only one who's been say it, but 

1128
01:01:49,600 --> 01:01:53,800
at least in my mind, I am always
used to be who has access to 

1129
01:01:53,800 --> 01:01:58,400
what, but I feel like that 
definition should be who has 

1130
01:01:58,400 --> 01:02:00,700
access to what and what are they
doing with it? 

1131
01:02:00,900 --> 01:02:03,000
Because it's what are they doing
with it? 

1132
01:02:03,200 --> 01:02:06,600
Is the signal that says, hey 
maybe it's not even the human 

1133
01:02:06,600 --> 01:02:11,400
being that is supposed to that, 
maybe that is a different human 

1134
01:02:11,400 --> 01:02:14,800
being using those credentials 
that tie back to the identity. 

1135
01:02:16,100 --> 01:02:20,200
I feel like it's sort of an 
evolution of what you be, a user

1136
01:02:20,200 --> 01:02:24,400
Behavior Analysis, and ueb a 
user entitlement Behavior entity

1137
01:02:24,600 --> 01:02:28,600
Behavior Analysis were trying to
do maybe like 10 years ago. 

1138
01:02:28,700 --> 01:02:31,100
And if you like the itd, our 
identity threat detection, 

1139
01:02:31,100 --> 01:02:33,600
response is sort of the Natural 
Evolution of that. 

1140
01:02:33,600 --> 01:02:36,400
Now, to get it, right? 
You have to have data and you 

1141
01:02:36,400 --> 01:02:38,700
have to have bass lines and you 
have to have, you know, the 

1142
01:02:38,700 --> 01:02:41,700
things that able to correlate 
what looks fishy versus not 

1143
01:02:41,700 --> 01:02:43,900
fishy. 
But to me it's just it's an 

1144
01:02:43,900 --> 01:02:47,000
evolution of where that's going 
and I think It's I think it's 

1145
01:02:47,000 --> 01:02:49,800
where things are headed. 
I mean I think this is you know,

1146
01:02:49,800 --> 01:02:52,300
I think we've got a lot of 
organizations have spent the 

1147
01:02:52,300 --> 01:02:54,900
money on getting identity tools 
into place. 

1148
01:02:55,400 --> 01:02:57,400
What's the next step? 
Well, how do you get more value 

1149
01:02:57,400 --> 01:02:59,800
out of it? 
Let's take the data that's 

1150
01:02:59,800 --> 01:03:02,600
sitting in there in these 
privileged access management 

1151
01:03:02,600 --> 01:03:05,200
identity governance. 
Your single sign on your 

1152
01:03:05,200 --> 01:03:08,800
authentication platform and try 
to tie that all together to do 

1153
01:03:08,800 --> 01:03:12,100
things with that data, which 
totally makes sense. 

1154
01:03:13,800 --> 01:03:15,700
All right, let's move to the 
next one here. 

1155
01:03:15,900 --> 01:03:19,800
This is episode 196. 
So relatively recent we talked 

1156
01:03:19,800 --> 01:03:23,700
with Mickey buddi from 
transmitted and here's that clip

1157
01:03:24,300 --> 01:03:28,500
for your staying things that are
more geared toward bypassing 

1158
01:03:28,500 --> 01:03:31,900
two-factor authentication. 
You know this is funny like you 

1159
01:03:31,900 --> 01:03:35,600
know when two Factor 
authentication is kind of like 

1160
01:03:35,600 --> 01:03:39,400
you know recent in terms of the 
adoption rate of two Factor 

1161
01:03:39,400 --> 01:03:42,100
authentication even though it's 
been with us for many, many 

1162
01:03:42,100 --> 01:03:45,300
years only. 
You know probably in the last 

1163
01:03:45,300 --> 01:03:48,000
five years or so. 
We're starting to see 

1164
01:03:48,000 --> 01:03:52,700
organizations really adapting 
two-factor authentication and 

1165
01:03:52,700 --> 01:03:58,600
typically with an OTP typically 
over you know SMS or email or 

1166
01:03:58,700 --> 01:04:03,200
not specific application to do 
that, you know as soon as you 

1167
01:04:03,200 --> 01:04:07,000
know fraudsters realized that 
this is what organizations are 

1168
01:04:07,000 --> 01:04:09,700
doing. 
They immediately came up with 

1169
01:04:09,900 --> 01:04:12,800
men in the middle attacks like 
you know it's not like they 

1170
01:04:12,800 --> 01:04:14,900
invented. 
It right like this attack 

1171
01:04:14,900 --> 01:04:17,000
vectors. 
I can tell you that, you know, 

1172
01:04:17,000 --> 01:04:20,100
we've been experimenting with 
them like 20 years ago. 

1173
01:04:20,200 --> 01:04:24,000
So, everything was known but 
like, you know, sometimes like 

1174
01:04:24,000 --> 01:04:27,600
the motion is, it's like, always
like, you know, for me, it's 

1175
01:04:27,600 --> 01:04:31,100
like you're watching something 
in slow motion, right? 

1176
01:04:31,100 --> 01:04:33,600
It's like when you're watching 
something in slow motion, you 

1177
01:04:33,600 --> 01:04:36,400
know, what's going to come next?
Because you get like a lot of 

1178
01:04:36,400 --> 01:04:39,900
time to think so with, you know,
for example, we two-factor 

1179
01:04:39,900 --> 01:04:44,300
authentication, it was pretty 
obvious that as soon as His, you

1180
01:04:44,300 --> 01:04:47,300
know, starts to adopt it 
fraudsters will be able to 

1181
01:04:47,300 --> 01:04:50,500
bypass it very easily. 
So we're seeing a lot kind of 

1182
01:04:50,500 --> 01:04:54,200
like men in the middle phishing 
websites where like you know the

1183
01:04:54,200 --> 01:04:58,900
fishing website asks you for the
the OTP code and then the 

1184
01:04:58,900 --> 01:05:01,600
fraudster goes and completes 
that and it was slightly more 

1185
01:05:01,600 --> 01:05:05,900
advanced attack would be a seems
to app which is becoming easier 

1186
01:05:05,900 --> 01:05:10,400
to do now with a seam and the 
fact that you don't need like a 

1187
01:05:10,400 --> 01:05:14,700
physical seem to pretend to be 
You know, to take over a 

1188
01:05:14,707 --> 01:05:18,200
different phone number, the 
actual mobile operators, or 

1189
01:05:18,200 --> 01:05:22,900
being a part or, you know, a 
step in the attack itself. 

1190
01:05:23,100 --> 01:05:25,000
So we're seeing a lot of that 
typically. 

1191
01:05:26,300 --> 01:05:29,000
So moving towards password list 
which has been a theme, I think 

1192
01:05:29,100 --> 01:05:31,700
for getting thing and stronger 
than occasion. 

1193
01:05:31,800 --> 01:05:33,900
Hey maybe Twitter is going to 
surprise me and they're going to

1194
01:05:33,908 --> 01:05:36,400
replace SMS with password less 
for all the users. 

1195
01:05:36,600 --> 01:05:40,500
I'm sure that will be a cheaper 
solution might not be cheaper. 

1196
01:05:40,500 --> 01:05:46,400
But yeah, I say, you know, a 
conversation we have with Mickey

1197
01:05:46,400 --> 01:05:49,800
was just so insightful so you 
know, he's been in the space for

1198
01:05:49,800 --> 01:05:55,500
so long started, a very 
successful organization and you 

1199
01:05:55,500 --> 01:06:01,500
know he kind of like went into 
the space looking at, you know, 

1200
01:06:01,500 --> 01:06:06,200
orchestration and now they've 
really moved to authentication 

1201
01:06:06,200 --> 01:06:11,400
and putting risk at the center 
of, you know, kind of how they 

1202
01:06:11,400 --> 01:06:13,900
do authentication and you know, 
kind of Of one of the 

1203
01:06:13,908 --> 01:06:15,800
conversations that has been 
real. 

1204
01:06:15,800 --> 01:06:21,600
Interesting, to me lately is the
shared responsibility around, 

1205
01:06:23,200 --> 01:06:25,000
you know, letting people in the 
door. 

1206
01:06:25,100 --> 01:06:29,500
So it's partially your, you 
know, everybody these days is 

1207
01:06:29,500 --> 01:06:34,800
like Outsourcing the technology 
to do, authentication to another

1208
01:06:34,800 --> 01:06:40,800
company but that does not 
absolve you from the need to or 

1209
01:06:40,800 --> 01:06:45,300
from the risk involved with 
those Seven occasions and you're

1210
01:06:45,300 --> 01:06:47,700
setting the settings and things 
like that. 

1211
01:06:48,800 --> 01:06:54,000
So to me it's like this issue of
risk and levels of assurance is 

1212
01:06:54,000 --> 01:07:00,500
like hers the center of this 
discussion 10 15 years ago, it's

1213
01:07:00,500 --> 01:07:04,800
the center of the session today.
I think the, you know, the 

1214
01:07:04,800 --> 01:07:08,400
authentication technology that's
out there today is much better, 

1215
01:07:08,700 --> 01:07:12,100
but it doesn't remove all the 
risks from the from an 

1216
01:07:12,100 --> 01:07:16,400
organization from a Additional 
perspective to, you know, 

1217
01:07:16,400 --> 01:07:19,300
handling the authentications 
that just gives you a better set

1218
01:07:19,300 --> 01:07:22,300
of tools. 
Yeah, well said I don't think I 

1219
01:07:22,300 --> 01:07:26,800
can top that. 
So where do we go from here 

1220
01:07:26,900 --> 01:07:30,000
before we wrap things up? 
Yeah, I think that's a good 

1221
01:07:30,000 --> 01:07:32,000
question. 
I mean, you know, the next time 

1222
01:07:32,000 --> 01:07:38,000
we have a, an episode where we 
really recognize that we've hit 

1223
01:07:38,000 --> 01:07:40,200
a milestone. 
What is that numbers? 

1224
01:07:40,200 --> 01:07:45,400
It 300-500, I mean, we're 
basically doing about, you know,

1225
01:07:45,600 --> 01:07:48,000
roughly 50 to 60 episodes a 
year. 

1226
01:07:48,300 --> 01:07:53,200
So to get the episode 1000 is 
going to be like 15 more years. 

1227
01:07:55,200 --> 01:07:58,800
So I think, you know, 500 is a 
major milestone. 

1228
01:07:58,900 --> 01:08:00,300
Turn. 
But I think for sure, I'll do 

1229
01:08:00,700 --> 01:08:02,800
you know, at least recognize 
things. 

1230
01:08:02,800 --> 01:08:06,200
I think what we want to continue
to do is like let's keep the 

1231
01:08:06,200 --> 01:08:10,900
conversation going, let's keep 
it vendor agnostic. 

1232
01:08:10,900 --> 01:08:17,500
I mean you and I have like we 
went over five episodes and of 

1233
01:08:17,500 --> 01:08:21,600
those five episodes four people 
came from, you know, either. 

1234
01:08:21,700 --> 01:08:24,399
Well no I'm sorry. 33 of the 
episodes. 

1235
01:08:24,399 --> 01:08:27,200
People came from technology 
vendors and one of the things 

1236
01:08:27,200 --> 01:08:31,200
that we've been big on is Saying
this podcast is not an 

1237
01:08:31,200 --> 01:08:34,600
infomercial, an infomercial for 
you on an infomercial. 

1238
01:08:34,600 --> 01:08:38,200
For us, doesn't mean we're not 
grateful and make sure that we 

1239
01:08:38,200 --> 01:08:43,100
say thank you when people do 
things to support the cause that

1240
01:08:43,100 --> 01:08:47,300
does not mean, it's like an 
official endorsement of of any 

1241
01:08:47,300 --> 01:08:49,800
technology or service or of 
ourselves. 

1242
01:08:50,600 --> 01:08:54,700
So, I, you know, that's where 
I'd like to just see his keep on

1243
01:08:54,700 --> 01:08:58,399
that track of not, being an 
infomercial, this being kind of 

1244
01:08:58,899 --> 01:09:02,899
So your term a safe place, you 
know that people can come and 

1245
01:09:02,907 --> 01:09:07,200
get real information here, real 
voices and perspectives in the 

1246
01:09:07,200 --> 01:09:11,899
industry and know that we're not
just going to be pitched to, for

1247
01:09:11,899 --> 01:09:14,800
an hour because it would be 
interested in listening to that.

1248
01:09:14,800 --> 01:09:17,500
Anyway, not me. 
And I'm not planning on editing 

1249
01:09:17,500 --> 01:09:20,200
it either, so so good luck with 
that. 

1250
01:09:21,000 --> 01:09:22,399
No, I think you're totally 
right, we'll keep it 

1251
01:09:22,407 --> 01:09:25,000
vendor-neutral. 
Keep it casual conversational. 

1252
01:09:25,000 --> 01:09:27,700
Not a presentation. 
I will counter. 

1253
01:09:27,700 --> 01:09:31,500
I absolutely 100%. % endorse you
and I about that. 

1254
01:09:31,700 --> 01:09:33,899
All right. 
And you know, of course, you 

1255
01:09:33,899 --> 01:09:36,800
know, we continue to bring on 
guests and, you know, folks that

1256
01:09:36,800 --> 01:09:40,300
have can add value to the 
conversation Beyond just, you 

1257
01:09:40,300 --> 01:09:42,100
know, a marketing pitch or 
things like that. 

1258
01:09:42,100 --> 01:09:44,500
But that doesn't interest me. 
Don't forget interest. 

1259
01:09:44,500 --> 01:09:46,200
A lot of people are out there. 
I think we just want to get to 

1260
01:09:46,200 --> 01:09:47,500
the meat of the topic and go 
from there. 

1261
01:09:48,200 --> 01:09:50,300
Yeah. 
And I'd realistically like, I 

1262
01:09:50,308 --> 01:09:53,899
mean we've done it now, for 
three and a half years, I think 

1263
01:09:53,899 --> 01:09:57,900
there's only one time and all 
that time in all 200 episodes, 

1264
01:09:57,900 --> 01:10:01,200
are we had? 
Call time out and say like this 

1265
01:10:01,200 --> 01:10:05,300
getting a little bit to my too 
much on the advertising side. 

1266
01:10:05,300 --> 01:10:08,900
So let's dial it back, right, 
everybody agrees. 

1267
01:10:08,900 --> 01:10:12,100
I mean like if you listen to 
that episode from Mickey that we

1268
01:10:12,100 --> 01:10:15,500
just played, he's the co-founder
of transmit security but he 

1269
01:10:15,500 --> 01:10:20,000
didn't pump is product or talk 
about like, yeah, this is why 

1270
01:10:20,000 --> 01:10:22,100
we're the best not one single 
time. 

1271
01:10:22,600 --> 01:10:26,100
We asked them to come on, to 
talk about risk and 

1272
01:10:26,100 --> 01:10:30,800
authentication and it's like, 
that's we got and that's what we

1273
01:10:30,800 --> 01:10:34,600
expect out of all of our guests.
Yeah, safe place. 

1274
01:10:35,900 --> 01:10:38,400
All right we've been going on 
for about an hour and 10 minutes

1275
01:10:38,400 --> 01:10:40,300
so far. 
Rough lengthening people's work 

1276
01:10:40,300 --> 01:10:43,000
and I keep things. 
Yeah, we'll keep things rolling 

1277
01:10:43,000 --> 01:10:45,000
here for another. 
Well, we'll celebrate another 

1278
01:10:45,000 --> 01:10:48,500
100 episodes number. 300, and 
they're all my children, all my 

1279
01:10:48,500 --> 01:10:50,900
babies. 
So I want to make sure that they

1280
01:10:50,900 --> 01:10:54,000
come out. 
Well, before we wrap up any new 

1281
01:10:54,000 --> 01:10:58,400
TV shows that you're into. 
Yeah, so, I mean, I got home 

1282
01:10:58,400 --> 01:10:59,800
around plush. 
Yeah. 

1283
01:10:59,800 --> 01:11:02,500
Documented, I watch books 
documentaries last night. 

1284
01:11:03,200 --> 01:11:08,200
But yeah, I've got parallel 
Plus, I'm very into the 

1285
01:11:08,200 --> 01:11:12,000
Yellowstone spin-offs but I've 
watched, I'm all caught up on 

1286
01:11:12,000 --> 01:11:17,800
those and Picard, you know, 
that's like my one sci-fi that I

1287
01:11:17,808 --> 01:11:21,700
really watch music. 
Brings you back to my Star Trek,

1288
01:11:21,700 --> 01:11:26,100
the Next Generation days and it 
looks like season 3 is heavy on,

1289
01:11:26,700 --> 01:11:32,600
you know, old, it's got Riker, 
it's got Beverly, who was the 

1290
01:11:32,600 --> 01:11:38,000
the Eric on the Enterprise and 
I've heard Geordi laforge 

1291
01:11:38,000 --> 01:11:41,000
mentioned several times. 
Who that was like my one of my 

1292
01:11:41,000 --> 01:11:44,900
favorite characters on that on 
that old show. 

1293
01:11:45,500 --> 01:11:48,200
How are you? 
I slept on Picard for a while 

1294
01:11:48,200 --> 01:11:49,800
and he kept mentioning I was 
like yeah, I'll get around to 

1295
01:11:49,800 --> 01:11:51,300
it. 
And frankly I would just forget 

1296
01:11:51,300 --> 01:11:54,700
that Paramount plus existed. 
I was like, okay well I'll 

1297
01:11:54,700 --> 01:11:55,800
finally check it out and it's 
good. 

1298
01:11:55,800 --> 01:11:58,100
I really enjoyed. 
So I'm looking forward to that. 

1299
01:11:59,100 --> 01:12:06,200
I've I have finished packs on. 
Go, which is a comedy-drama type

1300
01:12:06,200 --> 01:12:08,800
series. 
It's got Jean Smart. 

1301
01:12:08,800 --> 01:12:10,900
It's got Hannah. 
I'm binder and I think it's 

1302
01:12:10,900 --> 01:12:12,600
really funny and really well 
done. 

1303
01:12:12,600 --> 01:12:15,200
I think it's been nominated for 
a bunch of different things but 

1304
01:12:15,400 --> 01:12:18,200
that's another one that I kind 
of slept on for a little while. 

1305
01:12:18,200 --> 01:12:20,800
And I think there's two episodes
two seasons of a. 

1306
01:12:20,800 --> 01:12:24,200
Now, I've kind of worked my way 
through that and I'm really 

1307
01:12:24,200 --> 01:12:25,900
enjoying that stuff. 
We want to check out if you 

1308
01:12:25,900 --> 01:12:28,700
haven't kind of seen it. 
And then I've actually started 

1309
01:12:28,700 --> 01:12:32,900
watching House of the the dragon
the The Game of Thrones spinoff.

1310
01:12:33,100 --> 01:12:35,200
I watched the first episode like
when it first came out I was 

1311
01:12:35,200 --> 01:12:39,900
like okay kind of left it alone 
and then I've been watching the 

1312
01:12:39,900 --> 01:12:42,800
last few episodes or the last 
few nights trying to get caught 

1313
01:12:42,800 --> 01:12:45,200
up on it and it's okay. 
I won't say it's as good as Game

1314
01:12:45,200 --> 01:12:47,400
of Thrones yet, but I think it's
one of those things where you 

1315
01:12:47,407 --> 01:12:50,700
kind of have to build up into it
to some degree with the 

1316
01:12:50,700 --> 01:12:53,700
world-building and characters. 
Yeah, for me Game of Thrones the

1317
01:12:53,700 --> 01:12:57,200
best seasons were the first 
couple Seasons, it just like, 

1318
01:12:58,500 --> 01:13:03,300
what's a show where the Walking 
Dead the first few seasons I was

1319
01:13:03,300 --> 01:13:07,000
like oh I can actually see that 
happening then as it's the 

1320
01:13:07,000 --> 01:13:10,200
show's get further in, they 
become become more like a 

1321
01:13:10,200 --> 01:13:13,700
Stephen King movie where it's 
like oh the beginning you're 

1322
01:13:13,700 --> 01:13:16,600
like yeah that's real life that 
could really happen and then all

1323
01:13:16,600 --> 01:13:21,800
of a sudden like you know he 
goes off the rails and so that's

1324
01:13:21,800 --> 01:13:25,300
where I usually lose interest 
but I'm a big fan of Picard 

1325
01:13:25,300 --> 01:13:30,700
which like 500 years in the 
future and who knows if It is of

1326
01:13:30,700 --> 01:13:32,400
humanity. 
Will even continue. 

1327
01:13:32,500 --> 01:13:35,300
There's me prank, it's out right
before we end the episode. 

1328
01:13:35,500 --> 01:13:37,500
Yeah, well, hopefully, someone 
will, I'll be able to like 

1329
01:13:37,500 --> 01:13:40,600
digitized myself somehow and, 
you know, make myself an AI that

1330
01:13:40,600 --> 01:13:43,100
can kind of live forever. 
Somewhere there, be great. 

1331
01:13:43,100 --> 01:13:47,300
And some sort of low Fidelity 
mode, taking all the audio that 

1332
01:13:47,300 --> 01:13:50,700
has been part of this podcast, 
the 2000 hours plus that we have

1333
01:13:50,700 --> 01:13:55,000
out there and sort of cobbled 
together in aii around that. 

1334
01:13:55,100 --> 01:13:58,100
Well, there are some, I was 
watching one of my documentaries

1335
01:13:58,100 --> 01:14:02,700
and there's this certain type 
type of frog that I forget, 

1336
01:14:02,700 --> 01:14:07,400
where he lives. 
But when it freezes He gets 

1337
01:14:07,400 --> 01:14:11,900
frozen in the ice and when the 
ice thaws, he comes back to 

1338
01:14:11,900 --> 01:14:15,600
life, and that's like so unfair,
the reason that they can't 

1339
01:14:15,600 --> 01:14:18,700
freeze humans is because like 
they're freezing process, 

1340
01:14:18,700 --> 01:14:23,000
destroys ourselves, but there's 
something with this frog where 

1341
01:14:23,500 --> 01:14:26,900
his cells don't get destroyed by
the cold. 

1342
01:14:27,800 --> 01:14:31,500
So if they could figure out that
science, that's the cryogenic, I

1343
01:14:31,500 --> 01:14:34,000
think, Right freeze. 
You know, freezer body or freeze

1344
01:14:34,000 --> 01:14:38,500
your head for the future, some 
some and then maybe maybe one 

1345
01:14:38,500 --> 01:14:41,500
figure it out and then we get 
into you know, if you haven't 

1346
01:14:41,500 --> 01:14:43,700
seen the show altered Carbon on 
Netflix. 

1347
01:14:44,200 --> 01:14:47,100
Basically you're getting 
downloaded into a new body. 

1348
01:14:47,200 --> 01:14:51,200
Every time you die which is kind
of interesting concept to that 

1349
01:14:51,200 --> 01:14:52,800
will be interesting. 
Yeah. 

1350
01:14:53,500 --> 01:14:54,900
Alright let's go ahead and leave
it there. 

1351
01:14:54,900 --> 01:14:57,500
That was episode number 200. 
Jim always. 

1352
01:14:57,600 --> 01:14:59,700
Pleasure once just you and I 
chatting I feel like it's so 

1353
01:14:59,700 --> 01:15:02,400
easy I have. 
So few edits that I have to make

1354
01:15:02,400 --> 01:15:06,300
which is great. 
And the prep is very little, we 

1355
01:15:06,300 --> 01:15:09,000
prepped a this is one that I 
wasn't sure what we were going 

1356
01:15:09,000 --> 01:15:12,200
to do and we again kind of 
pulled it out together. 

1357
01:15:12,200 --> 01:15:13,100
What are going to talk about 
here? 

1358
01:15:13,100 --> 01:15:16,500
We are our 15 later. 
Yeah, right, exactly. 

1359
01:15:16,600 --> 01:15:19,200
Maybe we just short of episode. 
Yeah. 

1360
01:15:19,900 --> 01:15:21,200
All right we're going to leave 
it there. 

1361
01:15:21,600 --> 01:15:24,600
We're on the web. 
Idac, podcast.com Twitter, at 

1362
01:15:24,600 --> 01:15:28,600
IES. 
Idac podcast, mastodon On idac 

1363
01:15:28,600 --> 01:15:32,600
podcasts at infosec data 
Xchange, given are always happy 

1364
01:15:32,600 --> 01:15:34,700
to connect with LinkedIn. 
If you're a listener, please 

1365
01:15:34,700 --> 01:15:37,900
drop a comment or something so 
that I know that you listen to 

1366
01:15:37,900 --> 01:15:40,300
the show and yeah, be sure to 
subscribe. 

1367
01:15:40,300 --> 01:15:42,500
So you know when you episodes 
come out and I've got one more 

1368
01:15:42,500 --> 01:15:44,100
surprise for you. 
Jim you ready for it? 

1369
01:15:44,100 --> 01:15:48,300
Yeah, we've got a new outro. 
Not just the new intro but a new

1370
01:15:48,300 --> 01:15:50,000
outro. 
Oh, I can't wait. 

1371
01:15:50,300 --> 01:15:54,100
Here it goes. 
You've been listening to 

1372
01:15:54,100 --> 01:15:57,500
Identity at the center. 
We hope you've enjoyed. 

1373
01:15:57,500 --> 01:16:02,000
The show, make sure to like rate
and review and we'll be back 

1374
01:16:02,000 --> 01:16:06,200
soon, but in the meantime, hit 
the website and identity at the 

1375
01:16:06,200 --> 01:16:12,400
center.com and find us on 
Twitter at idac podcast. 

1376
01:16:12,500 --> 01:16:16,500
See you next time on identity at
the center