Hey Jim. We've got a new intro.
Do you want to hear it? Let's hear it.
This is identity at the center. If it has anything to do with I
am this is the go-to podcast. So if you're a beginner or an
expert or anyone in between you've found your new home
welcome to Identity at the center now your host Jim
McDonald and Jeff Steadman No. So, how about that?
That's fancy dude. I like it.
Yeah, figured, you know what? For episode 200, we start off a
little bit different. We got a new intro, spent a
little time on it. Spent a little money on it to
play it together but I'm like, I'm pleased with the way it came
out. Yeah, I just, you know, behind
the curtains. How did you get it done?
If I recognize that voice. Yeah, so I went on Fiverr and
you know, talk with a few different people and kind of I'm
looking for went through a few different revisions and settled
on that. So so Keith is my guy.
Yeah. And you know what I really like
about it like it's punchy. He has a very clear way of
speaking which I wish I did. You know he enunciates very
clearly and I think the length of the intro is appropriate,
right? It's not like too long.
It's not too short. Perfect.
Yeah you don't want something I was like you know four minutes
of introduction and we went through and through A few
different versions. But yeah, something I try to
keep it. I've been trying to keep them
under 30 seconds or so for the last couple years, so you no
longer have to listen to my crappy intros.
Now, we actually have a professional one.
So no, no. I mean like, I like love the new
intro but I want to say that the old intro was good too.
I mean, I don't call a crappy. He did a great job with that.
Well, maybe I should go on Pfeiffer and start doing a
little side to side hustle. Yeah, exactly.
So yeah. Welcome to the identity, the
center podcast, I'm Jeff. That's Jim Jim.
How's things going good? So I had a really interesting
afternoon evening less yesterday.
So I sitting on, I live in Augusta Georgia, so I was
sitting on Bobby Jones Expressway, which is kind of,
like, kind of a major thoroughfare returns from, like,
limited-access Highway into a road with lights and I get to
one light and the Police stopped traffic and they pull this thing
across the road, which looks like a string basically.
Like and then they wave everybody.
So end up at the next light, sitting there at the next light.
This car like a bad of hack flies by and it's being chased
by like 20 police cars and they go into a ditch, this car goes
into a ditch flies out of the ditch.
Makes a turn on like the smaller Road and all the police cars
like chase after them. I'm like wow that's like
something you would see on the Nightly News and I just saw it
in person and you know what I realized was I forgot to take
out my phone and video this whole thing because that's what
you're supposed to do these days, it was how we going to
validate this, even happen. This isn't just a story you made
up. So the only you only you know,
somewhat proof that I have is that later on in the evening.
Evening. There was a report that a
fugitive was on the loose in our area that he ditched his car and
one of the neighborhoods nearby and was like running around and
supposedly armed and which I mean, I guess if you run away
from the police, you ditch your car, you're probably armed.
And I don't know actually if he's been caught yet but they
sure do sounds like you made a getaway or something, I don't
know. I can't believe what was it?
Like tires. Tire spikes that they try to
pull out across the road. And yeah, I'm not sure that's
usually like the whole the whole time.
I thought there were maybe pulling something, cause you
know how they have those like counters and certain rows to try
to see like, how many people are.
Yeah. Driving on that road.
At first, I was thinking, well, I guess is that?
But it looked like, just look like a piece of string and then
it's like, police officers doing it, which I thought was strange
in the middle. Are these, the why are these
police officers pulling string across The road that doesn't
make any sense. It didn't make sense.
None of it added up until I saw the guy there's like a
Mitsubishi Spider as what the kind of vehicle I would say it
was is gray and like it went into the ditch hard.
I mean it had to be going like 40 miles an hour into the ditch
and then like all the police cars were swarming but it just
like kept driving and then like pulled off in this small Road.
And then I mean it was a number of police cars that were chasing
after him. The Geology didn't catch.
Him is insane to me. Yeah that seems kind of weird.
Like any helicopters. You sure - yes.
So supposedly. There's a helicopter circling
around the area last night. So I guess there's a lot of
crime in a gust, a lot of shootings and stuff like that.
I'm kind of sheltered where I live because it's like the more
suburban area but I still I never see things like that.
Happened. Yeah that is weird and
interesting. I guess that's not you don't I
guess not in a good way. No but that's easy.
Par for the course. Jim is your starting off our
recent episodes on somewhat of a downer.
Yeah well I don't know. I mean it was kind of a I don't
usually have something to spikes my adrenaline and heart rate
other than going to the gym, you know.
So that was that was the plus side.
I plus it it get hurt or killed Also, yeah.
Look here, I'm just celebrate bystander.
But you didn't, you didn't have your phone.
So there's no social media flavor of it, so I could throw
that on LinkedIn. That would be a big hit.
Yeah, I'm sure. Well, no, please don't put on
LinkedIn. I hate people put like personal
suffering like that. Yeah, I'm with you.
Like, I don't get that. I don't really hate it.
But I mean, some people feel compelled to do it and I haven't
seen babies like a Serial personal life poster on
LinkedIn. Oh, I you, I've seen.
A bunch. I guess maybe it's just depends
on the network or whatever, maybe that you're part of.
But yeah, there's things on there that I see all the time.
It's like, really. This is this is the place for
that, that you ought to put that.
How do you choose who to accept on LinkedIn and who not to?
That is a great question because I get a lot, you know, lots of
listeners, which are great if so what.
So, if I get a message with it that says, hey, I'm a listener
or whatever, I audit, that's a no-brainer, right?
Of course, we're going to connect.
I get a lot of Context invites as well, it's like, okay, who is
this person? Why are they reaching out
recruiters, you know, other technology companies?
You know things like that as okay.
Well, if they're in the, I am space, I might look at him and
said, okay, sure, I get a awful lot of like podcast promotion
people. I do not accept any of those.
Like I has not, you know, I'm not, I'm not interested in that
side of the world, but it seems like there must be like, some
sort of like, class that gets out because I will receive Like
every eight weeks, 12 weeks like 10 of them all in the same day
and then I'll get like nothing for like a few weeks.
And it seems to be like, there's, maybe some sort of like
training course somewhere is doing to, like, help.
You know, people who want to help promote podcasts or
marketing or whatever, maybe least, that's my theory, it just
seems very interesting. That's, it's very spiky.
Nothing very spiky. Nothing and that's been a trend
for, like, the last year and a half or so.
Yeah I had an interesting one come up the other day where
somebody could act it to me. So by the way, my attitude is
all except anybody. But you know if it becomes like
an ongoing series of unwanted direct messages, I just block
them. But this person reach out to me
connected, you know, and they were from an identity and access
management technology company. And not one that I had heard of
but I said very well interested in learning more, whatever is
that it looks at the person's profile picture and it was like
one of those perfect perfect profile pictures where I was
like man I wish my profile picture was like that clear and
that well framed and everything that I looked at it.
I was like it kind of looks like there's like something like over
her chin. So I clicked into it further and
it was a watermark Like a stock photo site I'm like no, no,
that's that's total garbage man. Like really especially for an I
am technology Product Company to have somebody out there using a
stock photo and it was supposedly like they're their VP
of strategy or something. I was like that is weak sauce
man. I get the occasional fake
profile where it's clearly not a real person.
It's like, oh here's this person's background there and
they start. I'm in identity and then you
look at that like their job history it's like I was a
programmer and then I was like Chief marketing.
It's and there's like the the work history and all the details
around it. Don't make any sense whatsoever.
Everything conflicts with everything else.
There's clearly no Direction there.
And it's just like a profile that was put together to harness
as many keywords for searches as possible.
Yeah, yeah. That's bad.
So, I don't know if it's as bad
as a watermark on here. And picture.
That's, that's pretty bad too. Yeah, I think like if I'd gotten
that, it was somebody who was like, just trying to sell, you
know, hey Will promote your podcast, or we're search engine
optimization. Then it would kind of go with
it, but that they were actually like, hey, we've got the best.
I am provisioning tool etcetera. Etc.
That to me was like, now you can't have a stock photo.
Yeah. Well, stock photos, bad
regardless. I mean the opens up so many
questions I mean white, you know, tal licensing.
Yeah. Well that's enough, I guess the
all stuff that I think about right when you put out episodes,
it's okay. Well, my getting like a
copyright strike honest. We don't, you can't use, you
know, commercial stuff, it's just a two of us.
So it's not like, you know, we have all this, you know,
protection for Mike a brand perspective.
Some very careful about our stuff gets out there so that we
avoid any issues. That's how Make it to episode
200, man. You can't just like roll out of
bed and beyond episode 200. Yeah, episode 200, man, this is
a pretty pretty big milestone for us.
We're actually talking Milestones before we hit record
here and I feel like every 100 episodes is a milestone, there's
clearly bigger ones like 500 1000.
If we ever make it to that like that kind of thing.
But I still feel like every hundred is still a pretty
significant Milestone, especially if you consider the
vast majority of podcasts never. Make it past episode 7.
And here, we are in number 200. Yeah.
You know I and I think it's like a natural 200 because I like to
say we've done an episode every Monday for the past three and a
half years and it's not exactly true.
Right. Like over Christmas, we take a
break and then we've, you know, certain conferences will go to
would do like four or five episodes while we're there and
we're not going to stagger those out over the next four or five.
X. We do a burst of three to five
episodes of the week, but what I mean by its natural.
It's like we're not taking episode a recording and chopping
it up into three parts. Typically I'd say the most we've
recorded was like two episodes of one day.
I don't think we've ever recorded three in one day so
it's not like we're doing things to choose that number.
Yeah, 191 and a half weeks since the podcast started, which I
think our first original recording was June 20th and
we're going to play some clips later of some of the shows that
I think, you know, you and I have liked over the over the
last couple years, I was debating on episode one and it's
just so bad from a nautical active, but I couldn't bring
myself to like, make a clip out of it.
If you want to go, listen to it. Great.
I think the content is good, but I think we are clearly the first
time we've ever done. It didn't know what we were
doing and still kind of figuring it out.
And again, 200 episodes later, We're still kind of figure.
It's like a lot, but I feel like we have gotten a little bit
better, you know, certain aspects of things.
But yeah, 191 and a half weeks and we've put out 200 episodes.
So we're averaging, you know, just over one episode every
week, which I think is pretty impressive.
Considering this isn't even our day job, right?
This is something we do on the side For the Love of the Game.
We're not sponsored, we don't run commercials right occasion
will get support from the companies that we've worked
with, you know, over the last couple of years.
But for the most part, when people, when people hear and
see, The identity Center podcast.
It's you and me, you handle all the booking and sort of getting
together. You know what?
The topics are the shows are going to be about, and I handle
kind of all the back end stuff and web, and editing, and things
like that. Yeah.
And, you know, you and I met working at it.
Atrophy, we work very closely together and grew into a
friendship and we thought, hey, why don't we come up with a
podcast? And honestly, I think of the 200
episodes. Well, 199 going into Today, I
haven't listened to many of them, you know, I'm there for
the record are there for the and I think you probably listen to
all of them, but I've listened to hardly any of them.
And I actually the other day, listen to episode 199 with Sarah
and like, you know, this isn't half bad.
It's actually a pretty good podcast we put out.
Yeah, no, I think it's, I think it's, I think, this is something
that most people struggle with is hearing their own voice.
I certainly didn't. Yeah, I mean I was there I don't
necessarily need to listen to that episode, but I hear it
naturally. As part of the editing process
and trying to make make things go well, but yeah, I think, you
know what, I think we've done all right for, you know, a
two-man show for the last couple of years.
I'm looking forward to another, you know, 200 episodes at least.
Do you remember the first question you asked me when we
first met at I'd entropy, I remember it very clearly because
we were in Las Vegas. No, I don't remember.
It's a very Jim question. Do you like baseball?
Absolutely. That was the first question and
I was like, not really I kind of follow the Cubs B, it and then
you just kind of like walked away.
I've no, I've no use for the sky.
Yeah, exactly. We was some dinner that we were
doing. I think, probably for, I could
entropy customers or something like that.
And that was the first time we had met face-to-face.
I think we had been on the phone a few times.
For that. But yeah, that was like our
first introduction and who would have thought I guess that would
have been what seven or eight years ago now you know, here we
are still working together, certainly The Odd Couple, you
know, I don't think we could be really any more different and a
lot of different areas but it certainly Works.
Our friend, Jody calls us, the identity mullet.
I'm the business up front, you're the party in the back,
but yeah, it's worth. Act and hey man.
Cheers to us for 200 episodes. Yeah.
Yeah, Joe is a great person and I remember working with her
organization and it was like one of those ones that prove that
every different. Advisory you go into Yeager to
see some things that are saying but there's always something
that's different and actually that one had a lot that was
different because they didn't run active directory and it's
like that's almost like the first box you could check with
Every company on their internal. I am they've got an active
directory and this program did Samba right?
I think it was Samba. I was my first introduction to
some like really getting into into more detail on Saba and
it's still the only time I've seen Samba and any Enterprise
ever worked with. Yeah, I remember them telling us
that they were like the biggest user of Samba, like they
contribute to the open source, whatever it is exactly cool.
So what's changed in the last couple of Of years.
I mean, I feel like 200 episodes.
We, you know, there's been what changes and presidents and
health, what else? Yeah, well I think, I mean, it
would be hard to ignore the fact that we went through this big
Global pandemic. Trying to think what to start
like March 2020, right? Yeah, we were here before it and
we're here after it because we certainly hope.
Thank goodness. Yeah, both literally and
figuratively. That mean I think that's
probably one of the biggest things that happened in our
career. It happened right in the middle
of the life of the podcast. So here's one thing that I
remember was we are growing our listenership like crazy.
Like I think in the beginning, like our first let us call it 15
20 episodes. It was like it wasn't growing
too fast. That all of a sudden it was
like, whoa, It's people must be listening to this podcast on
their way to work and then the global pandemic 8 And it's like,
oh we're back to like where we were the first few episodes.
Like people stop listening but then it's growing back and then
some obviously since then. But yeah, I I always wonder
where people listen to the podcast.
Like, what are they doing? They like mowing the lawn and
listening to it, you know, in their car, putting their kid to
sleep. Try to get everyone to fall
asleep. Yeah, yeah.
Most people, I talked to, they are listening to on commutes or
walks or, or stuff like that, that they're kind of doing, you
know, that sort of thing. So I think, yeah, it's been an
interesting climb. It's been a slow climb, but
that's I think not somewhat by Design, but as a result of,
yeah, we don't really market, right?
It's just, here's the content. If you like it, share it, if you
don't, okay? But we share it anyway, right?
Just set it out to an enemy. I don't care, right.
And I think that's just kind of Of How It's grown.
And, you know, we've talked, we've made a lot of great
relationships in the industry and we've certainly, you know,
covered a lot of conferences and things like that.
And I think people started to take notice about that
obviously, Gartner's, a big one, right?
We were there, sort of unofficially last year and now
we're going to be there officially you know, on the
stage interviewing Henry K and Becky in a couple weeks and I
think that's pretty amazing for, you know, for not having you
know this this marketing machine sort of behind it is just
literally just two of us and Power of our listeners really
tuning in every week and that's super cool.
And I'm super grateful and thankful for all that stuff
because that just it's not lost on me every week that you know
there are thousands of people who you know literally listen to
us you know all the time and all the great guest that we bring in
and people have been you know I would say what 99.9 percent
supportive and we get nothing but content or good.
Good feedback from folks who reach out.
Yeah you can't you can't sell short the You know, the
listeners sharing it telling people to listen and commenting
on our post because I mean, otherwise it really wouldn't go
anywhere. We can, you know, we don't have
a marketing budget and even if we did, I don't think that's
respected. All in the intro.
It wasn't all the intro. Yeah, there you go.
Yeah. So today's episode is we kind of
like I think a little bit of a retrospective of kind of where
we've been. I know that we're going to talk
a few different clips here. I did want to bring up.
Something that is relatively timely.
So it's today is Sunday February 19th.
You and I were recording this in the morning as I've been
traveling all week and just got back yesterday in.
This is a topic that you and I were going to talk about anyway.
And then, I saw a post from Michael Freeman on LinkedIn.
Wanting to know what our thoughts are on Twitter charging
for SMS MFA. And I have some thoughts.
Do you want to go first, you want to hear my thoughts first?
Um, yeah, I'll go first because I think this is something I've
been thinking about really all week since I heard the news and
I'm a little bit divided. And here's my, here's my
thoughts. So for those who people who are
not aware Twitter is going to start disabling SMS as an MFA
option for people who have not subscribed, Ribbed to Twitter's
blue service, which is essentially, their monthly paid
subscription where you basically pay the month to get a couple
extra features. One of those new features is
going to be the continuing allowance to use SMS as an MFA.
You can still use the authenticator app or there was
another option of, you know, security key or something like
that for MFA. If you are a non-paying user but
if you but the option for SMS will be removed.
Some time in the Your futures what it sounded like?
I don't think that that is a very pro-consumer change that in
the least. I think the way that they're
approaching this is essentially going to be okay you're not
paying or just going to turn off MFA or second factor for you and
now you're just back to ID and password that is terrible from a
strategy perspective for protecting your customer
accounts. And I think this is a money grab
for, from E1. I think he He did not want to
buy the company for forty four billion dollars or whatever it
was tried to get out of it for months, essentially realize he
had no case and had to buy it. And, you know, they're there
that that investment has not paid off to date with a lot of
things have been happening and he's doing everything he can to
get more money out of things to cut costs.
And I think this is just a terrible move and doesn't make
any sense from a From a security of her from the user expected.
That's it. I mean I think it's I purely
think this is a money grab and it's not thought out like a lot
of things. You said your divided on it.
I am because I think here's and that's that's that's my, I
guess, my negative opinions, the positive opinions.
I think, I think it's great to try to move people off of SMS or
email MFA because of course, they are not the most secure
things in the world. They are certainly the lowest I
would say of the MFA Is that are out there but they are still
better than nothing and it will help you know, the average
person better secure their access.
So I get wanting to move the bar and sort of, you know, Force
change. But I do not think that this is
the intent behind it. I I totally think that this is a
money. Grab a, cost-saving grab.
And I'll actually liken it to Teslas, full self-driving.
Everyone knows I love Tesla. I love my tough.
I have to now. I'm a big fan of the vehicles
and electric vehicles in general.
But I will tell you right now, Tesla full service are full.
Self-driving is kind of what they've put out there is 100%
not ready to be used in the real world and that has been
recalled. It's a software update, which is
kind of an interesting way to have a, do a recall, but it is
not safe for most people to be using and is not the right way
to do it. And I see this as the same type
of approach, where You know, they're basically trying to
force a change before. People are ready and despite the
safety risks. All right, so I want to verify a
fact before I make my opinion. They're disabling SMS for non
paid subscribers, but you still can do MFA with a yubikey or the
authenticator app? Yes, I've got.
I don't have a problem with it. Here's why is that?
They're actually making the better option.
Free. And that's also there already,
you can do that today. That's not regulation.
Well, that's free for take away the the Lesser option, which by
the way they have to Hey, you can call a fraction of a penny
to send us a mess. It's a worse option from a
security standpoint and I think almost nobody should pay for
this all right no one's going to know what they like.
All right. Well you know because it sounds
like if you pay the 895 for the blue check you get it.
If you don't pay the 895, would you pay something just have SMS
rather than use the authenticator app?
I think the answer is no and I think a lot of company so the
problem That I think you have is that they're taking away this
feature. If they never had the future, it
would be a non-story, right? Because I think there are
Services out there today that don't have SMS capability,
right? It's authenticator app or
nothing, I mean. but if I haven't worked for a company
that allowed SMS for logging in to the corporate Network, Yeah,
I think that time that I guess the problem that I have with it
is what do you think the common person is going to do?
Do you think they're going to go through the steps of saying, oh
I'm going to have to go and set up a Microsoft or Google or you
know, offi authenticator app automatically just kind of do
it. I just don't see that happening.
I think what's going to happen is the people who have SMS
turned on today, they're gonna all of a sudden, not have it.
And I'm sure there will be like email announcement.
Send whatever may be right to kind of go out, but I think the
vast majority population is going to wake up one day and
just not have SMS, not have any MFA on their account.
And what do people do, they reuse passwords?
And all of a sudden you're going to see this uptick and things
and then it will be oh well should I do this?
Go of course they should go and change to the fennek.
A wrap ideas, don't think the average person is going to
proactively do that, but I'm going to argue with your point
about it being a money grab because if it was money grab
would actually I have to be something that people would pay
for. I don't know how we're gonna pay
for this. No.
And I think I think it's a cost-saving grab first, but in
order to recoup it they you know, they've started to now you
can become blue check certified, or whatever, right through
subscription, which is a whole other thing.
It is it is this is not a move that is meant to improve or
improve security. This is a move to cut costs.
And the way I see it MFA is table Stakes for any consumer
facing service is you should build this into the product that
you're delivering. You should have MFA options.
Now, if you started without SMS MFA and there's plenty of
companies, right? They do email Magic, Winx things
like that, an email isn't the best option either, but I feel
like if you start with one thing and then you pull it away later,
I think that opens a lot more opportunity for things to happen
in a negative aspect. I just don't think most of the
profit. I don't have a problem.
The actual switch, it's the way they're doing it.
And just the fact that I think I don't think most people will go
through the effort of setting up another new MFA.
They already hate most people already hate authentication as
it is. Yeah, you know, I first heard
about the story I only got at the headline level and I thought
there was just taking a multi-factor authentication for
everybody and I was like, You know, more leaning towards the -
I was like, that's horrible. But I was also like, it's kind
of a interesting experiment because I wonder how many people
will put a value on having their authentication were secured.
Like, well, thousands of people wind up paying a dollar a month
for SMS or 44. MFA, that would be really
interesting data to have. I still wouldn't think it was a
good idea at the Level of, okay? If you have my account and you
have my password and, you know, it's just look a greater chance
of my account being breached or your etc etc.
But at the same time I thought it would be interesting
experiment. Now that I understand that they
actually are you know, basically saying okay we're going to
monetize or you have to pay for a lesser form of security than
what we offer for free. I have action.
Absolutely no problem with it. I mean I think it's on par with
deprecating SMS as a form of MFA which I think is would be a
great move. I'm in favor of getting rid of
it. I just don't think it's the
right way to do it. I don't see Twitter as like the,
you know, the altruist, a team of security agents of Hope and,
you know, of do the right thing with all the other issues that
they've been having, you know, recently.
But I just don't think this is the right way to do it.
It's interesting. So I listen to A podcast called
Lenny's podcasts. And I'm not going to remember
which episode it was. It's one of the top podcast in
the world. Like, remember you had that
like, that website, that kind of said, are you?
Here's where podcast Rank and identity to Center was one of
the few. I am podcast that was in the top
five percent. Think there's one other one that
I saw which was vittorio's. Anyway, there are other podcasts
Tyler's do that. We're in like the top one
percent like the I listened to one called the Bronx Pinstripes
which is about the Yankees and then she Lenny's podcast which
was like in the top point one percent of all podcast and I
mean this guy does like a really good podcast and has on its
focus on like project product managers, mostly from tech
company. So like the product manager from
Uber or the product manager from notion or something like that.
So he had a guy who was either a current product manager or past
product manager And he was talking about layoffs and like
is like as long as I don't even know if it was at the point
where Twitter announced layoffs. But other companies were
announcing some layoffs and like whether you like it or not it's
going to improve the company's bottom line.
Third to be a more successful company because they do these
layoffs and that might hurt to hear but you know, he's looking
at it from the standpoint of he was involved with like layoffs
at a lot of different companies that have done.
Research on it. And it's like you know that's
usually what happens with companies is that they have
better numbers after they go through these layoffs.
Oh yeah, you're cutting costs bad guy, right?
That's the business side of it. I just if you're looking to cut
costs, I don't know if security is the way that I would do it.
Yeah, the security of your user, especially when your product is
your users, right? You're trying to sell
advertising. Now, what happens when you've
got, you know, that's the thing. That's so compromised.
That was my point on like, or I don't know if the point that I
raised it all yet, but We, I think they're trying to take
Twitter move away from The Advertiser base model.
Well, they're trying to diversify for sure.
I mean I think any you know any company doesn't want to be 100%
dependent on any one Revenue stream right?
Everybody does that. So yes they were very heavy and
advertising, they've tried to dabble with Mark, you know
subscription in the past. I get that right.
You want to monetize essentially your your most engaged users,
right? Twitter, blue or whatever.
They're calling it for the subscription side of things is
not going to be something that 80% of their subscribe, you
know, of their users use, it'll probably be.
More like 1% 5%, something like that.
The whales right? It's very similar to Mobile
gaming free-to-play gaming, things like that, you're not
targeting, you know. You're building a mechanism to
Target the whales the ones who will spend 1000 2000, 3000
dollars on a game. Not the ones that will never
spend a dime on it. It's the same thing on a
subscription service, there's a lot of free trials out there
that are limited and that might be good enough you know, for 80%
the 20% is where you're going to make your money and Diversifying
where you have a subscription Revenue, you've got ad Revenue,
totally makes sense. You know, they're of course,
there's other features being part of Twitter blew, right?
Longer posts you can edit posts or delete posts, right?
Stuff like that. I just, I just don't feel like
the security aspect of it is where that you is, where you go
to make the costs or make make the, you know, to cut costs,
right. But I think he's, I think he's
improving the security so if he In improving the security, then
I would agree. How is it improving security,
though? Because the IMF, they're pushing
people, who still want to choose, I bet you there's like a
large percentage of Twitter users are just username
password, no SMS. So, do I think more people are
going to go from SMS to username password or more people go from
SMS to authenticator app. I think it's gonna be more
people move to authenticator app.
But see I think the opposite, I think a lot of people just won't
do anything at all. Until they're forced to change.
I don't think turning off a security feature, is the way to
force the change. I think you do it with a rollout
and an incentive program and communication and tons of lead
time to get people and you nag them through email or whatever,
maybe I don't think pulling it out in a month.
Two weeks, whatever the time frame is is the right way.
When you're talking about a service that has how many
millions or billions of users on it?
I just feel like of the percentages.
I think a very small, Percentage will do it in the first.
Let's call it month even, right? Maybe they only log in once a
month, to check it. And the meantime, you're gonna
have a whole bunch of accounts, they're going to be totally
susceptible to password spray attacks, whatever may be, and
then they're going to get compromised and then those
people aren't going to be able to actually set up their MFA.
They're going to set it up, whoever's crack their account
right here to sell it or do stupid things with it, or
whatever it may be. You know, by the way, the reason
I brought the layoffs was as actually a side topic because
they think that you felt we were getting too positive.
No, no, no. Yeah, that's me.
No, because they think that when Ilan bought the company, He went
out and laid people off, it became a very public thing.
You know. It's almost like the way it was
handled was very like, you know, just not very nice and there was
that and then he became very active voice on social issues
and and got into very political topics.
And so then there was what we have to get off for a lot of
people, we had to get off the Twitter.
What's this Macedon thing? And then like, for me I was
like, what is he? Like I'm doing you just spent
forty billion dollars on this company, and now, like and we
need to seems like what he's trying to do is like drive it
into non-existence. I don't think that was his goal
because now he's gotten, he's, he doesn't do this thing's,
right? There's the last that kind of
Happiness been in the past. He's not going out there and
making these statements this much and Look the new Cycles are
just so fast these days that it's like they've gone up to
Macedon I think and it's like it's not as good.
Like there's not the base of people there.
So it's kind of like, okay, well, You know, everybody's back
to Twitter. Well, that's where the users are
anything, you know? There were certainly a spike
where people moved over to Mastodon towards like the end of
next year but that has certainly trailed off it has slowed
significantly. I think any competing social
network where Twitter users were fleeing to.
That's been sort of like the trend is, we don't like where
things are going, let's go find something new.
They go there and then they sort of Trail off, right?
The growth doesn't keep up with that spike in demand.
You know, we're I created a mastodon account for us.
Over the over, the Christmas break here over 20 22 and it's
fine. My problems with it aren't
necessarily the functionality. I think it's actually better
functionality. What Twitter has that a there
aren't as there aren't, you know, character, length limits?
So I can put as much things as I want.
Their, my problems with Mastodon are two things one.
There's not as many users there. So people don't have many
accounts, so it's the distance. So the reach isn't what it is.
On the Twitter side, but that makes sense.
Right? There are relatively new
compared to our Twitter's bed. And second is the whole this
idea of the Federate Federated identity servers and things like
that. Finding people is a challenge
because you know, I say the Seedy underbelly of the pockets
of universes like we're at idac podcast at infosec dot exchange
there. Very well, could be another at
idac podcast at some other server.
How do you know which is the real one?
And that's the challenge that I have a is you know the that
identity validation or verification takes place a still
think, still needs to be worked out.
I'm not going to go off and create idac podcast at every
single Mass on server because literally anybody can start one
like the just doesn't make sense.
So how do you make sure that you're following the right
account? And that's the challenge that I
have of Macedon. Sounds confusing?
Yeah, but I like the product products find, I mean, it works.
Its functional can put my videos and and put my, my she may show
announcements and things like that on there.
I don't have to figure out how to fit it within a certain, you
know, character limit that you know, that Twitter has you had
never liked the character limit. Yeah.
Well, if you want to, you can become a subscriber and you can
post a long form and you can pay Twitter, X dollars a month and
you can do it. Yeah, I haven't been on Twitter
and in years I mean I accidentally clicked like every
once in a while like we're living our profile try like
media person. I think LinkedIn is probably
your primary one, right? Definitely.
And that's the same thing for
me. I mean, the only time I go on
social media really is for the podcast type stuff.
Or if there's something maybe at work related, that kind of thing
and you and I think we get the vast majority of our engagement
comes on LinkedIn anyway. And that's why I try to keep
LinkedIn clean from a you know, from a Content perspective, I
hear there's a post about identity and access management
Or something related, hopefully or the podcast right?
That kind of thing. Right.
Right definitely true. So what does it sounds like plan
for this episode? What's that?
What else do we have planned for this episode?
Yeah, we're going to let's work through a couple different clips
here. Let's see, let's start with
number 91, he recanted you want to, don't you reckon play the
clip from episode one, huh? No, I'm not gonna.
It's it just makes my ears Grinch if you, if you want to
listen to it. You're not taking it down, it's
still out there, right? It's a time capsule as we've
said all along right episode 1, the content I think is good.
Do I think it's our best episode ever know because it was our
first episode, we had no idea what we're doing.
I certainly didn't know what I was doing from an editing.
My voice is very Echoey animal is a silver, emotional season, 2
episode. It's number two, number two, I
think that's the great thing about this podcast is you don't
have to like start from the beginning.
A lot of people will start. They either start with 101 which
is Sarah such as chickadee when we talk about AWS Cognito and ID
Pro, or they start with one and I wonder if at some point, is it
go in the future? If 201 or 200 will be one that
people start with? They don't go all the way back
in time, then maybe pick kind of spot, but all of our episodes
are You know individual topics self-contained.
It's not like you need to be listening episode 1.
You know, we're not a Serial. Yeah, that where you have to
like know the backstory we're talking about identity, we're
not we're not surprising anybody so you could just go backwards.
Start at the top and work your way backwards.
Yeah. Good.
Yeah. Please do please.
Listen to all of them. That's great.
Do you want to start? Let's start with Erik Anderson.
I think he's one of your nice favorite guests.
We've had and we've met him a couple times now at a couple
different conferences. Do you want to preview episode?
Anyone you want me to just play the clip?
Let's just play the clip and we'll talk about it.
I mean the fact that Eric is the C so at Adobe.
Okay, so here it is. So for us are zero trust
program, we dubbed it then at the beginning as an acronym for
zero, trust Enterprise Network we started looking at zero trust
about three years ago now, Google was starting to advertise
and talk a lot about their program.
We had met with some of our Their peer companies about what
they were looking at in the field.
We were very excited about the idea and how we could do it.
And at the time, there wasn't a single vendor solution to do it.
So we started looking at trying to figure out what are the base
pieces, you needed to make zero trust work.
How could we leverage our existing Investments and what
were the little pieces we needed?
So we took that to heart and started working with our
existing companies vendors that we are working with with and
figuring out how could we start stitching stuff together and the
Mantra was deliver something quickly using existing
technology and minimize our investment.
So it really caused us to be super creative, reach out and
extend and use the Partnerships. We had across the industry and
we wound up in mid-summer 2018 launching our first kind of
version of zero trust and one of the mantras that we had with it
was we wanted an easier and a better user experience while
increasing security which I think is a lot of the Mantra 10,
press delivers. One of the few chances you get
to actually make things more secure with making user
experience better and so we've been piloting it and playing
around with it and then we acquired a couple companies that
summer and they had some Employees are locations that we
weren't too enthusiastic about linking up the networks and the
data centers together. So we decided as a perfect
Pilots, if he could, we at scale, deploys are on trust.
Normally, when you onboard a new employee from an acquisition,
you would go in and do a touch and connect them through VPN and
onto the networks. And in this case, we decided
let's deploy. Our certificates are zero.
Trust is based on certificate. Authentication and device scores
on that front and get them access to what they needed
without needing VPS. And it was super successful.
It allowed us to go from about 50 users to 1,000 users in less
than a month and then it took off from there.
So that was Eric talking about his zero, trust journey and
stinks. I think still one of the few
organizations that I've taught you that actually was ahead of
the curve on it. It's actually doing it pretty
well in real life. What do you think?
I think for playing 20 trust, drinking game, we'd be in big
trouble now but now I mean, Eric's just such a bright guy
and I think He typifies cisos in that break out.
A lot of Industry experience who's now dedicating all of his
work life to the betterment of his company and a couple things
I took away from there was you know he wants to your leverage a
lot of the existing technology that he is companies already
invested in. I think that's a big factor that
we take into account when we do. Strategy advisory is like, okay,
well, what do you have in place today?
What's reusable, what's what's the stuff that you want to throw
away? Because you're not getting value
out of it or maybe the relationships going sour?
And I think, you know what, I heard come through in his talk,
there was that, you know, there are certain technologies that we
could leverage and get more out of their certain relationships.
And when I hear the relationship useless, like I've had good
experience with these people and I know I feel like I can count
on them to go that extra mile for me and I'm confident that
they're going to work in my best interest, you know, Jeff you and
I've always talked about, you know, how do you deliver a
vendor agnostic advisory, you know, develop a company strategy
when your company sells services and specializes in certain
Technologies, right? How do you keep it?
How do you keep it real? And I've always said, well, you
put yourself in the shoes of the client and you say, what would I
do if I were you and that? And if you work from That and
that's truly your direction. Then you don't have a problem
being vendor agnostic. So I kind of feel like, you
know, some of those things are coming through and what Eric had
to say? Yeah.
I feel like replacing Technologies typically the
nuclear options. So let's figure out how we can
work with. We have now it doesn't work, it
doesn't work, but I think the default position is you want to
try and be economical right with resources is where you can.
If you've got a tool that you know maybe it's not Say, but you
think can work, let's go with it, right?
Rip and replaces is just as a whole other Beast, it's
expensive. And the other thing is like you
know, a lot of times if you have a lot of investments in, you
never get them rolled out, you wind up with that idea of shelf
where where you're paying for an investment that you're not
getting any value out of or maybe minimal value.
If all you ever do is that mvp implementation, you never go
beyond that. That it's like you bought into
this big dream and you're getting very little value out of
it. So I think it makes sense that
every couple of years or something, you're looking at
those types of Investments as well as saying either look, this
is part of our big Vision. We're going to invest and get
the most out of this software or we're going to unroll the
investment that we made and cut ties with it.
Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of
companies that have the, you know, literally, the best
products in the world, right? We're talking the upper rights,
the rights for all the different Gartner, you know, and covering
or coal or and Forrester analyst reports, right?
All that stuff, whether I considered like the best.
There's a lot of companies that have the best products and still
struggle with it, and they don't get the value out of it because
they just get to that mvp process and they kind of Peter
out from there. They don't keep things cared
fed. They're not keeping things
updated. And We're say there's a lot of
products out there that don't keep up with the market as well.
Right. I think, you know, Legacy
products that have been out there for a while.
The newer SAS based, you know, young upstarts that are in the
identity space came and took a lot of people's lunch.
Specifically like the idea of a space that is always a risk
adapt. Right.
What's next? You know, may is it Cloud
infrastructure entitlement management is it?
I TD R II, you know, identity threat, detection response, you
know? Is it a?
I am. I mean there's there's a bunch
of New stuff that's coming along.
And not only do you as an organization, you know,
implementing these Services need to keep up the vendors that
you're working with and the products using those need to
keep up as well. That's right.
All right. Let's get the next one because
speaking of see IEM Cloud infrastructure and title in
manic that cloud infrastructure. Entitlement management.
We had John Morton from Britain of on board for episode 115.
Let me play that clip now. Believe privilege is a great
idea, but here's my beef, with least privilege it is.
Very human Centric. What's the other difference that
I talked about a lot with the cloud?
We want to move fast at the speed of service identity at the
speed of machines. When you are trying to analyze
least privilege from some sort of visibility and you have
potentially hundreds of thousands of environment roles
privileges policies. Inline policies, it is a losing
battle. Why not go to a method of zero
standing privileges? That meaning if you have to have
a user account you have no privileges until you actually
need them. When you need them, you can
check them out. You can use them for as long as
you want and you give them back anybody who's ever been in the
military. It's a very similar idea.
I used to work on a nuclear submarine, we had roving watches
on top and we have Had service Duty guns.
We didn't say, hey we're hoping watch.
You have duty in eight days. Let me go ahead and give you
this gun. I'm not going to give you
bullets, but you just have the gun because part of your role,
go ahead and keep it. We had a method of, when you
need the gun, you checked it out, you got the bullets, you
needed, you stood, your watch, you check the gun back in.
We need to move fast. So to me least privilege, is
that idea of? Let's try to get to some sort of
our back and that's where I do have beef because in the the
cloud as I just completely mentioned, sometimes you don't
even need user account. I can give you a user account on
demand when you need it with the axis it needs and then take it
away. That reduces risk.
I would love to hear someone argue the other side of that.
I want to hear just someone argue against the Euro standing
privileges. Well, he's not going to get that
argument because I love the idea of zero standing privileges.
The idea of the fact that nobody has access or has only the most
basic things. They need a cafeteria menu, some
internal SharePoint Internet site, something like that, but I
love the idea of zero standing privileges, I think it is a nice
goal to get to how realistic it is, for organizations.
I think that it requires a lot of technology, and Automation,
and maturity in their structure to be able to actually make that
That a real thing in the real world, what do you think?
Yeah, I mean so the reason I think we picked John John's clip
a couple reasons. One, I think it's really good
clip, but the other is just trying to show kind of like the
podcast. We've had see such as we've had
folks like John, who are like deep technology, like, in his
area deep technology Wizards, and we've had people on our
cross, the Spectrum of, you know, I am domains who are like
John and we'll talk through like the identi rathi.
We'll talk through some of the clips for like, CEOs of these
up-and-coming Technologies as well.
So that's kind of like the spectrum of folks that we get in
the podcast. But specific to The Domain topic
that John brought up, you know, I think that, you know, it's for
some organizations getting to least privilege and are back.
Model would be a huge improvement over where they are.
At the moment, the zero standing privileges, I think makes a ton
of sense as well. And I think this is the point
that you're making is like if you have a level of maturity to
go to that. I think, almost everyone now
understands least privilege and role-based access control which
makes it easier to strive for and fewer.
People understand the zero standing privileges even though
I think that is too. Directionally the right way from
a security standpoint. Yeah, I agree.
All right, this next one, I think is one of our favorite
episodes, for sure. It's episode, 151.
What's the difference between digital identity and identity
and access management? We had a lot of different
answers. This is one where we crowd
sourced, a lot of different thoughts from some of the
identity that are out there and I think this clip is me kind of
setting the stage that. So, let me play that here real
quick. Has the definition of identity
and access management change because I feel like it kind of
has and there's a lot of different terms sometimes used
for this right digital identity. I am I DM you know all different
color of identity words that could be out there.
I thought was that it will be interesting to get you know some
of the identity as we like to say, you know, on the show in
some way and kind of have a Roundtable discussion and then
actually you had the brilliant idea was I want to we just asked
people the question and have them email in In there are audio
response, so I guess Jim. Do you want to kind of take you
take us through the process of how we got to where we are
today. And from your perspective, I
think what happened was MD kept saying, digital identity,
digital identity, and I thought to myself, whatever happened to
I am. And so I asked him that
question. What's the difference between
digital identity and I am and it kind of stumped them, right?
And he's like well this is a longer answer.
This would be a longer answer than we have time for in, you
know. A little bit of the episode so
are we making a follow-up episode?
And then from there we kind of as you mentioned evolve the idea
to this kind of Round Table and we're going to go through the
recordings that were submitted. Yeah, the way it worked was you
know, Jim spammed everybody that we could think of sending email
to say hey here's the question. If you wanted to record like a 2
to 3 minute sort of answer on what your thoughts are and the
question that we posed to everyone, was this, what's the
difference between digital identity and identity and access
management? Aren't we kind of looking to
see? You know what the different
responses were we got responses from a few different people, we
have Ann Glaser, he's the senior vice president identity product
management at Salesforce. He's a friend of the show.
But on the show before Sarah such a tea.
She's the head of product for Amazon Cognito, another person
who's been on the show, actually all these people have gone to
show Eve, mailer, Chief technology officer at four
drops. We've got Adam Michael, who's a
data management officer and director for it risk identity
and adjunct professor at Texas A&M University.
T. And then our old friend Jamie
Lewis Pros. Who's vice president Solutions,
engineering and strategy at stadiums.
So we got a lot of good answers to that question out there and
we've talked about this a few times with a few different
guest. I think the Andy handle I think
this is a question. You would ask in a previous
episode, like, right before and then we got, you know, responses
from everybody. And I think what struck me was,
how different everyone's answers were.
And for the most part, still kind of generally aligned with
the exception of Adam who had a totally different take on it and
he kind of flipped it on its head a little bit and I They're
still to this day. If that is because he's not a
identity product or service person, he is in the real world.
Is I'll call it right? Yeah.
What do you think? He's a true practitioner, right?
So by the way, I've been in touch with Adam, he's offered to
come back on the show to talk about Dev SEC, Ops and Iams
Roland F PSI cops. Oh, that's going to come happen.
Yeah, that's happened this year. That's gonna be a fantastic one.
He did have a different perspective.
But, you know, it's like as you're playing those clips, my
opinion kept changing. We've recorded with Eve the
other day and I was listening to her answer and I was like, oh
yeah, yeah that I agree with Yvonne this one, right?
So her perspective was like digital identities to seeing an
identity access management is the management of that thing.
I'm like yeah, that kind of makes sense to me, but I think
also kind of going back to fried entities definition, which is
like Like it's a football. So like how you use the term
digital identity is like, is it the physical ball or is it this
concept of a game? There's Global game called
football. So I thought that was really
good because I think we use the terms interchangeably, which
doesn't mean that that's right to do, but I think the
definition of a word does change over time based on how the term
is used. Yeah, context matters.
That that's the way I think it was like, it's a blob.
It's a piece of Play-Doh or a Lego set, and you can make it
kind of, look, whatever you're trying to do and it matters who
you're talking to, and all that good stuff.
The last thing I'll say about that episode though is like, if
somebody asked me like, hey I want to listen to one episode of
your podcast, which one would you recommend?
That's the 1151. Yeah, that's a good one to kind
of really get a good distillation of all the
different things that kind of go on in our Let's go ahead and
move on to episode number 166. This is something that we
actually recorded with head covitz from Silver.
For while we were at Gartner up in the RSM sweet, the sweet
sweet, sweet referring to it all that week.
Let me go ahead and play that. Now for a long time, identity
security was kind of mixed into just I am identity
infrastructure, you know, if you have an eye.
I am platform. It has some security features,
obviously, but I think we got to a point, well, because there are
so many attacks that are leveraging, stolen identities
and credentials, people are realizing that we need to look
at identity security as a standalone thing that we have to
solve. And it kind of can't be a
feature in the identity platform because most companies have a
few different identity platforms.
They have, they have active directory, on-prem, and they
have a GED or OCTA in the cloud and they have Full do privileged
access management and they have something in the perimeter and
all of these all from different vendors that are competing with
each other. So there has to be a standalone
category or solution that would look at identity sets.
A course all these things and really focus on on the securing
the identities securing these. This is attack surface that
people I think for a long time didn't really think about it as
a major attack surface but it is you know, one of the biggest
First. We see that with every rainstorm
or attack. All right.
Willie just spreads in the network, so easily.
No matter what kind of security tools you have simply because
you can take, you know, stolen account for active directory,
and use it to move to any other computer in the network.
Nobody will stop you. So I TDR is really about
detecting and stopping this disease, entity threats and
looking at identity as an attack surface.
What do you think? Every reshot the head
Courvoisier to get them onto the podcast and just thinking, okay
here's a normal guy who started this company, can't wait to, you
know, kind of hear what his opinions were.
We got him recording. I was like, oh my God, this
guy's like a genius, like he actually is really plugged in.
So again a great episode to go, listen to head is you know, part
of this Like group is CEOs and Founders coming out of Israel,
who, I mean, they're creating the next generation of I am
products, I think realistically, but I, you know, specific to, I
TDR, I kind of feel like, you know, the, the traditional it
security umbrella has kind of looked at things from an IP
address standpoint. So if If things are happening on
the network from certain IP addresses, like we would pick up
signals based on IP this next generation of tools.
Like, identity threat, detection response is really taking a lot
of the same Concepts and basing them on identity because now
it's like, you can take not only the I the network level but you
can also take the identity level and look for things that are
happening from an identity or somebody who's trying to maybe
Is an identity footprint and use it over multiple devices to
attack the network. So to me it's it's it's kind of
an evolution but an important Evolution because I think
usually the way that breaches occur is by people getting hold
of some credentials and trying to leverage those credentials
and they're going to use them in ways that would be unnatural for
a Zur to use them. So those are important signals
because one of the things that you know, I think the catch
phrase that Maybe the, I'm the only one who's been say it, but
at least in my mind, I am always used to be who has access to
what, but I feel like that definition should be who has
access to what and what are they doing with it?
Because it's what are they doing with it?
Is the signal that says, hey maybe it's not even the human
being that is supposed to that, maybe that is a different human
being using those credentials that tie back to the identity.
I feel like it's sort of an evolution of what you be, a user
Behavior Analysis, and ueb a user entitlement Behavior entity
Behavior Analysis were trying to do maybe like 10 years ago.
And if you like the itd, our identity threat detection,
response is sort of the Natural Evolution of that.
Now, to get it, right? You have to have data and you
have to have bass lines and you have to have, you know, the
things that able to correlate what looks fishy versus not
fishy. But to me it's just it's an
evolution of where that's going and I think It's I think it's
where things are headed. I mean I think this is you know,
I think we've got a lot of organizations have spent the
money on getting identity tools into place.
What's the next step? Well, how do you get more value
out of it? Let's take the data that's
sitting in there in these privileged access management
identity governance. Your single sign on your
authentication platform and try to tie that all together to do
things with that data, which totally makes sense.
All right, let's move to the next one here.
This is episode 196. So relatively recent we talked
with Mickey buddi from transmitted and here's that clip
for your staying things that are more geared toward bypassing
two-factor authentication. You know this is funny like you
know when two Factor authentication is kind of like
you know recent in terms of the adoption rate of two Factor
authentication even though it's been with us for many, many
years only. You know probably in the last
five years or so. We're starting to see
organizations really adapting two-factor authentication and
typically with an OTP typically over you know SMS or email or
not specific application to do that, you know as soon as you
know fraudsters realized that this is what organizations are
doing. They immediately came up with
men in the middle attacks like you know it's not like they
invented. It right like this attack
vectors. I can tell you that, you know,
we've been experimenting with them like 20 years ago.
So, everything was known but like, you know, sometimes like
the motion is, it's like, always like, you know, for me, it's
like you're watching something in slow motion, right?
It's like when you're watching something in slow motion, you
know, what's going to come next? Because you get like a lot of
time to think so with, you know, for example, we two-factor
authentication, it was pretty obvious that as soon as His, you
know, starts to adopt it fraudsters will be able to
bypass it very easily. So we're seeing a lot kind of
like men in the middle phishing websites where like you know the
fishing website asks you for the the OTP code and then the
fraudster goes and completes that and it was slightly more
advanced attack would be a seems to app which is becoming easier
to do now with a seam and the fact that you don't need like a
physical seem to pretend to be You know, to take over a
different phone number, the actual mobile operators, or
being a part or, you know, a step in the attack itself.
So we're seeing a lot of that typically.
So moving towards password list which has been a theme, I think
for getting thing and stronger than occasion.
Hey maybe Twitter is going to surprise me and they're going to
replace SMS with password less for all the users.
I'm sure that will be a cheaper solution might not be cheaper.
But yeah, I say, you know, a conversation we have with Mickey
was just so insightful so you know, he's been in the space for
so long started, a very successful organization and you
know he kind of like went into the space looking at, you know,
orchestration and now they've really moved to authentication
and putting risk at the center of, you know, kind of how they
do authentication and you know, kind of Of one of the
conversations that has been real.
Interesting, to me lately is the shared responsibility around,
you know, letting people in the door.
So it's partially your, you know, everybody these days is
like Outsourcing the technology to do, authentication to another
company but that does not absolve you from the need to or
from the risk involved with those Seven occasions and you're
setting the settings and things like that.
So to me it's like this issue of risk and levels of assurance is
like hers the center of this discussion 10 15 years ago, it's
the center of the session today. I think the, you know, the
authentication technology that's out there today is much better,
but it doesn't remove all the risks from the from an
organization from a Additional perspective to, you know,
handling the authentications that just gives you a better set
of tools. Yeah, well said I don't think I
can top that. So where do we go from here
before we wrap things up? Yeah, I think that's a good
question. I mean, you know, the next time
we have a, an episode where we really recognize that we've hit
a milestone. What is that numbers?
It 300-500, I mean, we're basically doing about, you know,
roughly 50 to 60 episodes a year.
So to get the episode 1000 is going to be like 15 more years.
So I think, you know, 500 is a major milestone.
Turn. But I think for sure, I'll do
you know, at least recognize things.
I think what we want to continue to do is like let's keep the
conversation going, let's keep it vendor agnostic.
I mean you and I have like we went over five episodes and of
those five episodes four people came from, you know, either.
Well no I'm sorry. 33 of the episodes.
People came from technology vendors and one of the things
that we've been big on is Saying this podcast is not an
infomercial, an infomercial for you on an infomercial.
For us, doesn't mean we're not grateful and make sure that we
say thank you when people do things to support the cause that
does not mean, it's like an official endorsement of of any
technology or service or of ourselves.
So, I, you know, that's where I'd like to just see his keep on
that track of not, being an infomercial, this being kind of
So your term a safe place, you know that people can come and
get real information here, real voices and perspectives in the
industry and know that we're not just going to be pitched to, for
an hour because it would be interested in listening to that.
Anyway, not me. And I'm not planning on editing
it either, so so good luck with that.
No, I think you're totally right, we'll keep it
vendor-neutral. Keep it casual conversational.
Not a presentation. I will counter.
I absolutely 100%. % endorse you and I about that.
All right. And you know, of course, you
know, we continue to bring on guests and, you know, folks that
have can add value to the conversation Beyond just, you
know, a marketing pitch or things like that.
But that doesn't interest me. Don't forget interest.
A lot of people are out there. I think we just want to get to
the meat of the topic and go from there.
Yeah. And I'd realistically like, I
mean we've done it now, for three and a half years, I think
there's only one time and all that time in all 200 episodes,
are we had? Call time out and say like this
getting a little bit to my too much on the advertising side.
So let's dial it back, right, everybody agrees.
I mean like if you listen to that episode from Mickey that we
just played, he's the co-founder of transmit security but he
didn't pump is product or talk about like, yeah, this is why
we're the best not one single time.
We asked them to come on, to talk about risk and
authentication and it's like, that's we got and that's what we
expect out of all of our guests. Yeah, safe place.
All right we've been going on for about an hour and 10 minutes
so far. Rough lengthening people's work
and I keep things. Yeah, we'll keep things rolling
here for another. Well, we'll celebrate another
100 episodes number. 300, and they're all my children, all my
babies. So I want to make sure that they
come out. Well, before we wrap up any new
TV shows that you're into. Yeah, so, I mean, I got home
around plush. Yeah.
Documented, I watch books documentaries last night.
But yeah, I've got parallel Plus, I'm very into the
Yellowstone spin-offs but I've watched, I'm all caught up on
those and Picard, you know, that's like my one sci-fi that I
really watch music. Brings you back to my Star Trek,
the Next Generation days and it looks like season 3 is heavy on,
you know, old, it's got Riker, it's got Beverly, who was the
the Eric on the Enterprise and I've heard Geordi laforge
mentioned several times. Who that was like my one of my
favorite characters on that on that old show.
How are you? I slept on Picard for a while
and he kept mentioning I was like yeah, I'll get around to
it. And frankly I would just forget
that Paramount plus existed. I was like, okay well I'll
finally check it out and it's good.
I really enjoyed. So I'm looking forward to that.
I've I have finished packs on. Go, which is a comedy-drama type
series. It's got Jean Smart.
It's got Hannah. I'm binder and I think it's
really funny and really well done.
I think it's been nominated for a bunch of different things but
that's another one that I kind of slept on for a little while.
And I think there's two episodes two seasons of a.
Now, I've kind of worked my way through that and I'm really
enjoying that stuff. We want to check out if you
haven't kind of seen it. And then I've actually started
watching House of the the dragon the The Game of Thrones spinoff.
I watched the first episode like when it first came out I was
like okay kind of left it alone and then I've been watching the
last few episodes or the last few nights trying to get caught
up on it and it's okay. I won't say it's as good as Game
of Thrones yet, but I think it's one of those things where you
kind of have to build up into it to some degree with the
world-building and characters. Yeah, for me Game of Thrones the
best seasons were the first couple Seasons, it just like,
what's a show where the Walking Dead the first few seasons I was
like oh I can actually see that happening then as it's the
show's get further in, they become become more like a
Stephen King movie where it's like oh the beginning you're
like yeah that's real life that could really happen and then all
of a sudden like you know he goes off the rails and so that's
where I usually lose interest but I'm a big fan of Picard
which like 500 years in the future and who knows if It is of
humanity. Will even continue.
There's me prank, it's out right before we end the episode.
Yeah, well, hopefully, someone will, I'll be able to like
digitized myself somehow and, you know, make myself an AI that
can kind of live forever. Somewhere there, be great.
And some sort of low Fidelity mode, taking all the audio that
has been part of this podcast, the 2000 hours plus that we have
out there and sort of cobbled together in aii around that.
Well, there are some, I was watching one of my documentaries
and there's this certain type type of frog that I forget,
where he lives. But when it freezes He gets
frozen in the ice and when the ice thaws, he comes back to
life, and that's like so unfair, the reason that they can't
freeze humans is because like they're freezing process,
destroys ourselves, but there's something with this frog where
his cells don't get destroyed by the cold.
So if they could figure out that science, that's the cryogenic, I
think, Right freeze. You know, freezer body or freeze
your head for the future, some some and then maybe maybe one
figure it out and then we get into you know, if you haven't
seen the show altered Carbon on Netflix.
Basically you're getting downloaded into a new body.
Every time you die which is kind of interesting concept to that
will be interesting. Yeah.
Alright let's go ahead and leave it there.
That was episode number 200. Jim always.
Pleasure once just you and I chatting I feel like it's so
easy I have. So few edits that I have to make
which is great. And the prep is very little, we
prepped a this is one that I wasn't sure what we were going
to do and we again kind of pulled it out together.
What are going to talk about here?
We are our 15 later. Yeah, right, exactly.
Maybe we just short of episode. Yeah.
All right we're going to leave it there.
We're on the web. Idac, podcast.com Twitter, at
IES. Idac podcast, mastodon On idac
podcasts at infosec data Xchange, given are always happy
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So you know when you episodes come out and I've got one more
surprise for you. Jim you ready for it?
Yeah, we've got a new outro. Not just the new intro but a new
outro. Oh, I can't wait.
Here it goes. You've been listening to
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