1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,200 What is ISPN? It's a great question. 2 00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:06,360 I was about to write and publish something on ISPN at Garner and 3 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:14,080 then I got hired and I left. But ISPN, Jim, is, is an Apple 4 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:20,760 Watch for your identity program. And, and the way I, I, I use 5 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:25,480 this analogy is to explain that is the first or perhaps the best 6 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:30,320 way of, of surfacing metrics, not to show you how good of a 7 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:32,759 job you're doing protecting your environment. 8 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:38,320 So that's the, the reason of, of ISPN to exist, right? 9 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:44,080 So are you improving your security status or are you 10 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:46,400 decreasing? Are you improving that? 11 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:50,600 Are you getting worse at that? So the same way to watch helps 12 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:54,640 you to remember, hey, you should take 10,000 steps a day. 13 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:57,360 You should take this amount of sleep every night. 14 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:01,480 So you healthier, you stronger. That's the same process with 15 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:03,720 ISPN. So the idea is ISPN is 16 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:06,160 everything you can do before an attack, right? 17 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:11,040 So are you taking the necessary steps to sustain an attack? 18 00:01:16,320 --> 00:01:21,480 This is identity at the center if it has anything to do with 19 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:26,120 IAM. This is the go to podcast now 20 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:30,000 your hosts Jim McDonald and Jeff Steadman. 21 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:37,800 Welcome to the Identity Center Podcast. 22 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:39,480 I'm Jeff, and that's Jim. Hey, Jim. 23 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:42,200 Hey, Jeff, how are you? Not so bad yourself. 24 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:46,760 Man, I am happy you're back. Man, I am so happy you're back. 25 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:54,080 And today is that the Today when this episode drops December 9th, 26 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:58,320 Monday, first day of the Gardner, I am Summit. 27 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:04,520 So for those who are in Grapevine, TX and are, you know, 28 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:07,720 listening to the episode, you and I will be on stage on 29 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:11,320 Wednesday at 3:30 with Becky Archambault. 30 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:15,680 Really excited for that. She's going to be turning the 31 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:17,640 tables on us and interviewing us. 32 00:02:17,640 --> 00:02:19,240 So that's going to be quite different. 33 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:24,800 And for those who aren't able to attend the conference but are 34 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:28,080 still listening to this episode, you know, we're going to record 35 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:30,760 a couple episodes while we're there, while we're here 36 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:33,840 hopefully, and we'll have that for you guys to listen to. 37 00:02:34,640 --> 00:02:35,920 Yeah, it's going to be a fun week. 38 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:38,640 It's I feel like it's been a while since you are recorded 39 00:02:38,640 --> 00:02:40,880 like in our normal sort of studio environment. 40 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:44,640 I've been traveling and had, you know, my real job has gotten in 41 00:02:44,640 --> 00:02:46,960 the way of the podcast, so to speak. 42 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:50,920 So I'm, I'm glad I'd be back in a normal studio, neither not 43 00:02:50,920 --> 00:02:53,560 recording like on site somewhere because you know, I've been 44 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:55,560 traveling over the place for conferences like authenticate, 45 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:59,200 etcetera. And yeah, so I'm back, baby. 46 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,040 Well, a lot of people think this is our full time jobs. 47 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:03,800 I mean, people ask me that all the time. 48 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:06,680 It feels like it. It does. 49 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:08,200 It feels like a second job, right? 50 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:11,600 You hear about people working 70 hours a week and it's like, oh, 51 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:14,800 that must be horrible. But then I think about the hours 52 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:18,040 that we put into the podcast and we're probably I don't think 53 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:22,320 we're a 70, at least I'm not. But and the other thing is like, 54 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:26,320 it's, it's funny, sometimes my family members members will be 55 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:29,200 like, oh, you know, you're such a hard worker. 56 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:34,120 I think, you know, yeah, I like, I'm very dedicated to my job. 57 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:38,280 I do a good job at it, but it's not like I work in a coal mine. 58 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:42,120 You're a hard worker. Not a good worker Jim, but a 59 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:44,160 hard worker. Oh, I wasn't going to say that, 60 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:46,880 Jeff, thank you very much. Yeah. 61 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:49,840 No, look, we do this because it's a lot of fun, and we'll 62 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:52,440 keep doing it until it's not, until it's not fun, and then 63 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:53,400 we'll figure something else to do. 64 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:56,240 So there you go. So we don't have any discount 65 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:59,720 codes to share with people today because this is probably, well, 66 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:01,920 this is the last conference of 2024. 67 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:07,280 As you know, Q1 is not a big conference time, but next year 68 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:09,680 we're going to be going to EIC Ideniverse. 69 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:13,120 We'll be coming out with discount codes for those early 70 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:15,120 in 2025. Yeah, stay tuned. 71 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,040 I'll put them on our our homepage at idacpodcast.com. 72 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:20,040 Just Scroll down a little bit and you'll see whatever the 73 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:22,320 current discounts are. And yeah, feel free to use 74 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:23,720 those. There is one for Gartner. 75 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:27,480 If you are in the lobby of the hotel in Grapevine, you can't 76 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,880 get in IDAC 375. So there you go, last minute 77 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:33,200 discount code. But yeah, why don't we get into 78 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:35,560 today's episode because I feel like we have so much to cover. 79 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:38,760 And this is a guest that took us a while to get on. 80 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:41,520 We had him on earlier this year. And now we're back. 81 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:44,800 We're going to talk about ISP M, We're going to talk about AI. 82 00:04:44,840 --> 00:04:47,560 Of course, I am. And maybe get into some 2025 83 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:50,080 predictions on identity. So I want to welcome back 84 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:52,480 Henrique Teixeira. He is the Senior Vice President 85 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:54,360 of Sabians. And just the guy. 86 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:58,120 Welcome back, Enrique. I'm just a guy, just a guy. 87 00:04:58,120 --> 00:04:59,640 Thank you, Jeff. Thank you, Jim. 88 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:01,560 It's always a pleasure to be back here. 89 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:04,160 The show, guys. Well, it feels like a lifetime 90 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:06,640 since last time we spoke, but thank you. 91 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:09,280 Thank you for having me. Well, anytime the door is always 92 00:05:09,280 --> 00:05:11,960 open and I, I appreciate the mood lighting you've got going 93 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:13,440 on. It's a very dramatic effect. 94 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:15,960 You know, we're on video. So if you're, if you're not 95 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:17,880 watching a video, you can hover YouTube and kind of check that 96 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:19,880 out. But you were with us back in 97 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:21,680 episode 281. That was back in May. 98 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:25,640 So here we are about, you know, 6, maybe seven months later and 99 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:28,040 just curious, you know, what you've been up to since then. 100 00:05:28,280 --> 00:05:30,920 And then I'm curious also, you shifted over from a role at 101 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:35,000 Gartner, obviously as an analyst and now you're with Savion. 102 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:37,200 Does anything surprise you with that that role change? 103 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:42,560 Oh, yes, and lots of travel, right, since I, I, I moved here, 104 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:46,600 my son jokes say that why are you travelling so much? 105 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:53,200 And we, we've launched this series of, of events throughout 106 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:56,960 the globe, all these amazing destinations. 107 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:00,680 And so wow, I, I got to support this company I work for now, 108 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:05,280 right? And I, I'm very grateful that we 109 00:06:05,280 --> 00:06:07,760 have this opportunity. And I'm of course, I used 110 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:11,360 simpler words. He's 11, Lucas, my son, right. 111 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:15,080 And so, yeah, dad, I think you should go back to, to Gardner 112 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:20,440 and no, but it's being amazing. Just the opportunity to be 113 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:23,160 closer to the problem. That's that's exactly what I was 114 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:29,160 chasing right when I moved and and I know we are now close to 115 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:32,440 Garner the IM summit getting ready for that as well. 116 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:39,560 It it feels bittersweet. Of course, I I'll be meeting all 117 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:44,720 my my good friends at Gardner. It feels like the the whole show 118 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:46,440 right, which I used to be the chair of. 119 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:52,320 It's now an adult that has left the house, went away to college 120 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:55,960 and and took his own speed, its own pace. 121 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:59,920 And so I'm I'm super curious to see what Garner will be 122 00:06:59,920 --> 00:07:03,560 delivering excited. I'm I'm I'm very happy to be 123 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:05,160 there and there's new capacity. Of course. 124 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:08,800 It's funny that I don't know if you noticed that the theme they 125 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:12,520 chose for the show, right. So for the Garner AM Summit 2024 126 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:19,800 is identity amplified and I can claim I was the person in the 127 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:22,560 room when, when we're choosing the the theme for that. 128 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:24,840 OK, let's choose identity amplified because I can see I 129 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:27,800 have amplifiers here, right? And, and, and, and guitars. 130 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:30,960 So this is part of my life and perhaps a little bit of Terravia 131 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:35,080 when I suggested that and there was a bunch of other 132 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:38,160 suggestions, amazing options. Every year we go through an 133 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:42,080 ideation process at Gartner to choose the, the, the theme of 134 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:43,720 the, the, the conference for the year. 135 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:46,840 And, and then I left right. And I, I don't know what 136 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:50,720 happened, but in my own branding, on my own LinkedIn 137 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:54,240 profile, I used the Enrique Teixeira identity amplified and 138 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:58,800 I, I kept using that. And then I got a phone call from 139 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:03,280 Gartner and they say, Enrique, guess what? 140 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:07,720 We, we chose identity amplified as the theme for this conference 141 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:09,480 in 2024. So good. 142 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:11,200 I feel flattered, right. That was my idea. 143 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:16,800 But would you mind switching your profile to something else 144 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:18,360 and say, OK, of course, of course. 145 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:22,720 So I I didn't make any any fuss and I changed now it's. 146 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:26,680 Where a good trademark comes in. All right, yeah, but it's it's 147 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:28,400 OK. It was not a big deal. 148 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:31,320 So now it's Enrique Teixeira identity driven because I have 149 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:32,880 an OverDrive here and everything else. 150 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:36,679 So identity driven, I think it's what I am as well. 151 00:08:36,919 --> 00:08:38,720 And what we've been doing, it's saving, right. 152 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:41,960 So driving the importance of identity and and, and fixing 153 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:44,720 this problem. So, but to your question, yeah, 154 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:47,880 lots of surprises aside from the travel, which I I already 155 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:52,200 expected with, with, with them saving. 156 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:57,200 And I was surprised for the size of some departments inside of 157 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:02,640 Savient and how organized it is. And I had no idea, right. 158 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:07,160 And and I used to joke that Savient was this best kept 159 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:10,520 secret in the industry. So why, why, why don't you guys 160 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:14,120 speak more about this or that, this particular innovation that 161 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:17,280 you're launching? And because it was very much 162 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:20,800 driven by technical people and engineers. 163 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:25,760 But now we have a CMO, we have an amazing team, also marketing 164 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:29,280 and messaging what it does. So I was kind of surprised about 165 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:32,400 the thing in a good way about those things that, wow, even 166 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:37,520 myself as an analyst and I was paid to analyze you guys and 167 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:40,160 understand what you, what these vendors were doing. 168 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:43,760 I thought there was a lot that was kind of mysterious and I I 169 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:45,440 just learned after I joined the job. 170 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:51,080 So now this is like your first Gartner as a civilian and it's 171 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:52,840 freeing, right? You kind of mentioned of you're 172 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:55,200 not really in charge of it. So now you can kind of go as a, 173 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:57,400 as a normal attendee, right? Just a guy. 174 00:09:58,000 --> 00:09:59,880 Yes. What is something that you look 175 00:09:59,880 --> 00:10:02,560 forward to other than, you know, obviously relationships and 176 00:10:02,560 --> 00:10:05,080 meeting people and you know, and stuff like that, But is there 177 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:07,680 like something specific that jumps out you, you know, this 178 00:10:07,680 --> 00:10:09,920 week as we're all here, it is like, I'm looking forward to 179 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:10,920 this. I mean, obviously of course 180 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:12,960 then, you know, giving us fist bumps and stuff like. 181 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:15,760 That, yeah. And I had a little bit of a 182 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:19,320 taste of that when I was at SRM securing Risk Summit and 183 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:22,240 National Harbour. So I was able to reconnect and, 184 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:24,200 and, and, and feel that vibe again. 185 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:29,760 But little things that I used to care about when I was preparing 186 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:32,520 those conferences. Like for example, the tidbit you 187 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:36,560 just shared that now Rebecca will be interviewing you guys. 188 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:40,680 So I'm curious to say, OK, this is an interesting and fresh 189 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:48,280 approach to this or who are the other guest speakers that they 190 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:51,360 have picked, right? Because that was part of, of a 191 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:54,280 chair and choosing who are the, the guest speakers? 192 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:56,240 Who are the, the keynote speakers? 193 00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:01,840 So I, I'm more curious about this, the, the background 194 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:04,920 choices they made. And I, I know it's a, it's a lot 195 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:08,160 of work and I'm, I'm curious to see how it pans out, but I'm 196 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:11,680 very excited for them as well. So I'm, I'm on the sidelines 197 00:11:11,680 --> 00:11:13,720 cheering for them. I'm, I'm sure it's going to be 198 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:17,920 great, but also meeting my friends and, and, and our 199 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:23,360 clients as well and, and being there within the booth saving 200 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:25,560 it. We won't have Vans this year as 201 00:11:25,560 --> 00:11:30,160 we had for for other events we had like a Vance store and Vance 202 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:35,240 shoes, but we have a nice surprise in store as well with 203 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:37,400 that. I've got my vans in my closet. 204 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:40,080 So that was a that's that's that's a memorable swag for 205 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:42,080 sure. And we've told Becky for our 206 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:44,280 session, like, hey, you know, you guys are really gracious and 207 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:45,920 we interviewed you guys on stage. 208 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:47,960 You're like, hey, we'll ask, can we ask anything? 209 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:50,200 And we've told Becky same thing like Turner vows, Fairplay. 210 00:11:50,680 --> 00:11:54,840 So Becky, come at us, bro. We're happy to engage and where 211 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:57,080 that may be. You've got other copies you've 212 00:11:57,080 --> 00:11:58,440 been to. I know you were at Hipcomp, 213 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:00,240 which I've never been to. Maybe you can give me kind of an 214 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:01,840 update of what was Hipcom full hyphen? 215 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:04,040 Is that something like that I should be looking at for next 216 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:06,760 year? Yes, that, that was my first 217 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:11,080 time as well. An amazing roster of speakers 218 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:13,080 and, and I think that's what drove me there, right. 219 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:18,120 So Alex Weinert and and Pamela Zingle and and a bunch of other 220 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:23,280 amazing people, right. And it reminds me of and, and I, 221 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:27,080 I've never been to Identiverse on its early days, but it 222 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:31,440 reminds me of that the early days of Identiverse, a very 223 00:12:31,680 --> 00:12:34,400 practitioner oriented type of conference. 224 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:37,400 Pretty cool. I like the, the venue as well 225 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:44,160 was New Orleans by the, the actual space where they had the, 226 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:47,800 the whole Mardi Gras like Carnival type of thing. 227 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:51,840 So it was pretty cool. And, but like I said, they're 228 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:56,520 practitioner oriented, right, versus only Sisos and and 229 00:12:56,520 --> 00:13:01,720 leaders who had like all kinds of people from different levels, 230 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:04,080 but also different type of content as well, which was 231 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:06,200 pretty interesting. Pretty, pretty cool. 232 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:11,440 I, I, I'd love to to go back. Yeah, I, I get excited for the 233 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:14,920 same thing, like find out who the different guest speakers are 234 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:20,160 going to be because I'm responsible for booking, booking 235 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:22,400 our guest, booking our talent that comes in. 236 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:28,160 I use those lists oftentimes for finding future guests who have 237 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:30,440 an interesting and unique perspective. 238 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:34,640 So, you know, it's part of the whole identity at the center 239 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,240 brand is bringing in great speakers like yourself. 240 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:41,200 I I know I don't have to sell folks that are listening on the 241 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:44,000 show because they're already listening, but I've gotten so 242 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:46,800 much feedback, you know, so many times where we're doing the 243 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:51,480 episodes where people say identity is at the center and I 244 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:55,480 feel like we just accidentally struggle or I shouldn't say 245 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:58,560 accidentally because we talked about identity as the center as 246 00:13:58,560 --> 00:14:03,320 a concept, but we never thought once about changing the name of 247 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:05,680 the podcast. I think we just we kind of 248 00:14:05,680 --> 00:14:08,680 nailed it with this concept. And trademarks are expensive, 249 00:14:08,680 --> 00:14:09,760 Jim, so. Yeah. 250 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:12,680 Well, that's right. IDAC is something we trademarked 251 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:15,680 and that's a perfect segue because I was going to say we 252 00:14:15,680 --> 00:14:21,200 want to talk to you about the latest and greatest acronym ISPN 253 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:23,880 Identity Security Posture Management. 254 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:27,480 It's something that you've been talking about and wanted to give 255 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:28,960 you an opportunity to kind of talk about. 256 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:33,680 First off, what is ISPN? No, awesome. 257 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:36,640 And it's a great question. I was about to write and publish 258 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:41,920 something on ISPN at Garner and then I got hired and I left. 259 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:50,480 But ISBM, Jim, is, is an Apple Watch for your identity program. 260 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:55,320 And, and the way I, I, I use this analogy is to explain that 261 00:14:55,640 --> 00:15:01,040 is the first or perhaps the best way of, of surfacing metrics to 262 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:04,800 show you how good of a job you're doing protecting your 263 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:09,920 environment. So that's the reason of ISPN to 264 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:13,760 exist, right? So are you improving your 265 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:17,440 security status or are you decreasing? 266 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,520 Are you improving that? Are you getting worse at that? 267 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:25,560 So the same way to watch helps you to remember, hey, you should 268 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:28,920 take 10,000 steps a day. You should take this amount of 269 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:32,280 sleep every night. So you healthier, you stronger. 270 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:34,720 That's the same process with ISPN. 271 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:37,800 So the idea is ISPN is everything you can do before an 272 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:41,320 attack, right? So are you taking the necessary 273 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:46,200 steps to sustain an attack? Are you strong enough? 274 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:48,680 Right. And so? 275 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:53,160 The management part is kind of like understanding where you are 276 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:57,720 now and then improving it through me through evolution of 277 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:00,840 like fixing things. But I'm also wondering, is this 278 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:04,880 now a product space? So are there going to be ISPM 279 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:08,400 vendors that maybe dashboard all this stuff out? 280 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:12,520 What are your thoughts there? Yeah, and and exactly so that 281 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:15,520 the first step of it, it is about visibility, right? 282 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:18,360 Just surfacing that type of metric that say, hey, you're not 283 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:21,080 doing a good job here in in identity hygiene, right. 284 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:24,600 So you're not even enabling fishing resistant MFA to 285 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:27,400 everybody in your organization, like half of your employees 286 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:31,800 don't even have MFA. So this type of visibility is 287 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:34,320 super important. But yeah, as the remediation of 288 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:36,880 that is part of ISPN. So that's the M right, the 289 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:39,400 management part. So you, you remediate, you fix 290 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:42,760 this type of stuff getting stronger as you go and you 291 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:44,680 improve your security posture, right? 292 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:47,080 I think it's a great question to ask. 293 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:52,120 Is this a, a valid market? Is it I, I don't care and I 294 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:54,960 don't think buyers care about if it's a market or not. 295 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:57,840 The thing is, is it real? Is it not? 296 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:03,560 I think it's a, it's a type of discussion that as a gardener, I 297 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:06,440 remember having those type of discussions, especially because 298 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:10,480 when you have things like a market guide or a magic 299 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:16,280 quadrant, by definition, it has to exist as a market and and 300 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:21,440 Garner has very strict rules. What a market is now in in 301 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:27,720 reality, if I want to buy a a smartwatch or an electric car, 302 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:31,120 is it is to a car? Is it something else when like 303 00:17:31,120 --> 00:17:38,040 a, a faster horse becomes a car? I, I think buyers, they will buy 304 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:40,600 what they need to solve a problem they have right now. 305 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:45,520 And so that's why I, I, I said not, not in any trying to be 306 00:17:47,120 --> 00:17:52,560 facetious or anything, but it's, it's, I think it's just, it 307 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:55,920 might be a market. I, I, I know of companies that 308 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:58,960 they, they leave and die and that's the only product they 309 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:00,680 have. It's their, their, their MVP is 310 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:03,240 an ISPN product and that's what they're doing. 311 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:10,360 So the way I, I wrote research, it's more on the I, I, I make 312 00:18:10,360 --> 00:18:12,160 the analogy almost like a sitcom, right? 313 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:16,680 I, I, I, I, I evaluate the situation. 314 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:22,080 I take a picture of what's happening right now and I write 315 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:24,520 about what's happening right now and what's happening right now. 316 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:28,520 Yes, there are companies that are building tools that they do 317 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:31,120 exactly that is to surface those type of metrics. 318 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:35,240 Savant is doing that. We we have announced our entry 319 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:38,480 into ISPM and I think it is different, right. 320 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:42,120 So, so no, it is something different than IGA, it is 321 00:18:42,120 --> 00:18:46,120 something different than Pam. It, it is something else. 322 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:51,520 So we we could argue what the name should be, but I think it 323 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:53,760 is it is a category of different things for sure. 324 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:57,480 Is it different than ITDR? It is. 325 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:01,280 It is. How's it different than ITDR? 326 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:07,520 I I feel like the definition of ITDR is providing to secure your 327 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:11,600 identity systems. But then when companies go to 328 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:19,480 market with a solution A, solution A from company A and 329 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:23,320 solution B from Company B could be quite different and they 330 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:30,120 still fit into this ITDR bucket. And you know, whereas like IGA 331 00:19:30,120 --> 00:19:35,360 is pretty much means closely the same thing to everybody. 332 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:40,600 Now, I, I would love it, feel free to disagree with me on any 333 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:45,480 of that, but I'm wondering, OK, what, you know, how does ISPN 334 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:48,960 become about or what is the bucket of ISPN? 335 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:53,760 And is it, you know, is there a clear definition over it or is 336 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:57,240 this something that you're still spitballing or the industry 337 00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:00,960 hasn't like, you know, come to consensus on it, which is fine. 338 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:04,640 No, for me, Jim, it's very clear in my mind, right? 339 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:10,120 So, and the way I, I, I, I wrote this research on ITDR is that 340 00:20:10,120 --> 00:20:14,400 this happens during an attack and after an attack, right? 341 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:17,160 So it's a, it's a runtime threat detections. 342 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:21,600 So you already have somebody shaking the gates, like forcing 343 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:24,240 the door open that they're trying to get in. 344 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:28,000 That's when ITDR gets in. So it's threat detection, it's 345 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:31,680 identity threat detection at the moment of the attack and 346 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:35,520 responding to that attack. ISPN, it's all about the 347 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:38,440 prevention. So if you go to NIST and other 348 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:44,360 type of frameworks, so those are the things that happens before 349 00:20:44,360 --> 00:20:47,360 the boom, right before the attack, everything that you can 350 00:20:47,360 --> 00:20:51,040 do to prepare for an attack. So take Mike Tyson for example, 351 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:53,200 and Jake Paul, right? So all the preparation they did 352 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:56,440 for the fight. So are you sleeping well? 353 00:20:56,520 --> 00:21:02,080 What's your nutrition regim? Are you training hard? 354 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:07,280 Are you taking all the precautions so you don't die on 355 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:10,280 that ring? Right, So that's ISPM. 356 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:13,800 And yes, you're correct in the sense that IGA fits in that 357 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:17,400 prevention space as well. As a matter of fact, everything 358 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:21,280 that we did so far in Identity is preventive, right? 359 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:25,720 That's why the ITVR gap was so big, because MFA is preventing 360 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:29,520 bad guys from getting in. Pam is vaulting credentials and 361 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:34,080 not allowing it to be misused. So it's all about preventing an 362 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:37,920 attack. So ITDR happens when somebody is 363 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:42,640 already trying to break in, so it kicks in in the detection 364 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:46,560 mode and responding to that. And that's what ITDR is about. 365 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:49,360 ISPN is the prequel to that, right? 366 00:21:49,360 --> 00:21:51,320 So everything that you do before the fight. 367 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:56,280 I feel like this is not to disagree, this is probably more 368 00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:59,880 to agree, but just the thought is that I mean, I've seen 369 00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:03,240 Gartner has like the Venn diagram on this and I think the 370 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:07,920 third, so it's ISPMITDR and I think the third is IGA. 371 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:11,200 I'm going by memory. This is something I saw a long 372 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:13,680 time back. But some of the stuff you're 373 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:17,840 talking about prevention is in some of the ITDR platforms, like 374 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:25,280 for example, Sempress, they, they do some analysis of here's 375 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:29,880 the configurations within your Active Directory that are 376 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:34,640 potential cracks in the in the foundation. 377 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:41,760 So I feel like still companies are kind of built bundling all 378 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:43,480 these things into their solution. 379 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:47,120 They're not being purist, which I'm not advocating that they be 380 00:22:47,120 --> 00:22:52,320 purist, but I think it does make it hard to wrap your brain 381 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:57,760 around, OK, ITDR, it doesn't necessarily mean one thing, even 382 00:22:57,760 --> 00:22:59,920 though you're giving a very clear definition. 383 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:03,720 I just kind of feel like we're still in this churning period, 384 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:08,000 which leads to a lot of clients, in my experience saying, OK, 385 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,640 well, is this really the right time to jump? 386 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:17,200 In yeah, and, and, and I, I think it's a great analysis what 387 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:21,720 you just made, right, Because when we are writing research 388 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:26,920 and, and the market takes that idea and runs with it, it may be 389 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:29,200 hey, this is not the whole thing. 390 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:34,000 And, and, and yes, a lot of vendors that were doing ISPN 391 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:37,600 because I didn't have the chance to publish things about ISPN 392 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:39,840 before. So now this is, this is ITTR. 393 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:42,880 What we're doing is ITTR and I can remember 3 or 4 vendors that 394 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,920 did that and say, guys, this is not ITTR stop. 395 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:49,320 But then the word was out. The cat was out of the bag, 396 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:51,120 right? So no, but we like ITTR. 397 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:52,600 We're going to be using this label. 398 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,800 So but this it's, it's wrong. That's right. 399 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:59,160 I'm going to be right about ISBN next, which is the prevention. 400 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:00,760 Then what you're doing is about prevention. 401 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:02,920 It's finding the cracks and fixing the cracks. 402 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,800 You're not being attacked. So we're not detecting threats, 403 00:24:07,360 --> 00:24:13,640 right? So to your point, it is kind of 404 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:20,040 very enlightening to see that the power of writing research 405 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:24,200 and and what the vendors do with that, but also the buyers, 406 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:25,640 right? And and yes, the buyers get 407 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:29,280 confused because, OK, this, this is like the DRI thought, this is 408 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:35,920 more preventive. But when we talk about those 409 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,920 things at Sabian and say, guys, no, this is like the Dr. this is 410 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:41,480 ISPN. So that's part of the job of 411 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,760 being a strategist is to be clear about those things. 412 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,320 But I, I don't fault those other vendors. 413 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,120 They, they say, OK, no, this, this is a cool concept and, and 414 00:24:51,120 --> 00:24:54,120 we can run with this and, and this is good for positioning and 415 00:24:54,120 --> 00:24:57,960 messaging, say, well, more power to you. 416 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,760 But it, it can get confusing. That's I think is a 417 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,400 characteristic of our game, if you will, or our trade. 418 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:08,240 Yeah. I mean, that's exactly, I feel 419 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:10,840 like we're, we're getting into almost a little bit of 420 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:12,760 semantics, right. We're throwing out, we're really 421 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:14,920 good at creating acronyms. It's funny. 422 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,360 And Enrique, I was going to, I was going to interject when Jim 423 00:25:17,360 --> 00:25:21,320 asked you, what's the difference between basically ITDR and ISP 424 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:23,120 M? And I was thinking about it very 425 00:25:23,120 --> 00:25:25,640 similarly. ISP M is all the stuff that 426 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,040 happens before I get attacked. It's, it's your plan, right? 427 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,920 It's your hygiene of your identity program, your systems, 428 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:33,800 your capabilities, your data, right? 429 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,960 All that stuff, and I don't think there's ever a bad time to 430 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:38,600 do that. You don't need a tool 431 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:40,640 necessarily to. Do exactly that's that's a 432 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:42,920 day-to-day training. It's an idea. 433 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:45,920 It's hey, should we have MFA? Yeah, well, guess what? 434 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:49,200 You just improved your posture management for an attack because 435 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,920 now you've got a second level of authentication, right? 436 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:53,960 And I think there are things like that where we can look at 437 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,800 it and say, hey, here is here is what is my i.e. 438 00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:58,640 SPM look like. And yes, maybe there are 439 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,160 productized versions of that that have a very, you know, 440 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,440 structured approach to it. And it's a checklist. 441 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,560 And maybe it bleeds over into a technology where it's like, OK, 442 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:08,240 here's your checklist. And oh, by the way, if you click 443 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:12,200 this button, it will do this thing for you and keep it In 444 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,200 Sync maybe with whatever you define as your i.e. 445 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:17,680 SPM, because not every organization is going to have 446 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,840 the same level of risk tolerance or capabilities or things like 447 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,080 that. So I feel like ISPN is more like 448 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:26,440 a framework and idea set to say, hey, here's how we're going to 449 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,840 manage our threat level and our posture to protect against 450 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,240 identity. Secondary to that is exactly 451 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,200 what you said is OK, something bad has happened. 452 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,000 It got through our posture management approaches. 453 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:39,960 Now what do we do? And that's the detection 454 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,200 response. And of course, there's plenty of 455 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:44,280 technology now in that area, you know, to help with that. 456 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:46,000 But that's kind of how I was thinking about it in my head. 457 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:49,840 And that's exactly, and you said perhaps even better than I 458 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:54,920 could, But yeah, that's, that's, it's about training and, and 459 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,680 things, and things that you got to do regardless, right? 460 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:00,520 You got to eat and got to sleep. You got to train and, and, and 461 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:04,000 the more you do of that and, and eat healthy, you're going to be 462 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,400 better prepared for a gang day. Gang day is you are attacked 463 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,640 right now, right? So all the drills, all the 464 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,000 training that you do, that's a posture management. 465 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:16,960 So you you're becoming stronger in that sense of protecting your 466 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:19,320 identity infrastructure and your identity systems. 467 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:26,760 So I did find that that Venn diagram and it was a Gartner 468 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:33,040 diagram published in 2024 and the two overlapping circles 469 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,200 there were not 3. So I don't know if it's 470 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,640 technically a Venn diagram, but it's overlapping circles. 471 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:40,520 We got to get Yvonne. She's our expert on Venn 472 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:42,160 diagrams. So Eve, if you're listening. 473 00:27:44,120 --> 00:27:45,560 Yeah, exactly. We have to. 474 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:47,480 We have to have Eve's input on that. 475 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:55,120 We could put a link in the show notes, but it was prevention and 476 00:27:55,120 --> 00:27:59,200 ITDR and the overlap. And you can see pretty much to 477 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:03,360 my point, there are companies that are trying to play in both 478 00:28:03,360 --> 00:28:05,400 spaces. Now, whether or not they call it 479 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:07,960 one product or not, I. Don't there is an overlap that 480 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,400 that's a that's a good point. When I was writing about this 481 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:12,880 with Mary Ruddy, which is now chief of research and Gardner, 482 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:14,920 right. And, and, and between the 483 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,160 prevention things and then posture management and and 484 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,680 detection response, you could detect a change in posture, 485 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:24,160 right. So I, I don't know if you guys 486 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:28,560 saw on the iPhone now they have this vitals thing now metrics 487 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:32,240 that say, hey, your vitals changed. 488 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:34,760 So there was not an attack, you're not having a heart 489 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:37,760 attack, but your vitals change like you had a change in 490 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:39,800 posture. So a little bit of detection 491 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:44,600 changes of posture. But then, but I, I, I, I think 492 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:47,680 for the benefit of the industry, right? 493 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:52,200 So this semantics discussion, I think it's important, but we 494 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,680 shouldn't be just focusing on that. 495 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:59,760 But I think, and Rebecca talks about that too, focus on the 496 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,040 outcomes, right? I think it's super important. 497 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:07,000 So the outcome of ISPM is to be stronger for the attack. 498 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,280 That's right. And the outcome of ITTR is to 499 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:13,400 detect things faster and respond faster to those things. 500 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:17,400 I think that's simple as that. I think this is a great segue to 501 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:19,400 because I feel like this is where AI is really starting to 502 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,280 shine. What we called maybe machine 503 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:24,200 learning before and AI and all that's coming together now we've 504 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:29,000 got things like Co pilots and agents and bots and you know, 505 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:32,320 all kinds of stuff going on where, you know, where do you 506 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:34,640 stand on this from like an AI perspective? 507 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,600 And especially I think this terminology of copilot agent 508 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,360 bot, is there really a difference or is it really 509 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:45,560 again, we're back into semantics of it's still this, you know, 510 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,520 non human identity performing an action on something. 511 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:51,920 Yeah. And, and I'll get to that when, 512 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:55,840 when we talk about difference between AAI agents and, and, and 513 00:29:55,840 --> 00:30:00,960 AI Co pilots, but when we think about AI, right? 514 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:05,040 And before AI, it was cloud. And, and, and one of the things 515 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,040 I've been talking a lot in those different Rd. shows that we're 516 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:12,240 delivering is that if we look at the trends that driving change 517 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:17,960 in 2024-2025, man, cloud has been around for more than 20 518 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:20,920 years. Cloud was invented around the 519 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:25,400 year 2000, right? So almost like 24 and and which 520 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:30,680 is crazy to think about how long it took here to so we get to the 521 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:35,920 cloud security of Wiz and and Palo Alto, the CSPMS of the 522 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:37,880 world. The reason I bring this up is 523 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:41,280 that now we have this other inflection point or a second 524 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,320 wave happening, which is AI, which happened two years ago, 525 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:46,560 right? And and, and, and, and 526 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,840 generative AI becoming mainstream and, and even like 527 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:54,240 people like my mom, she's in healthcare and, and she's what 528 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:55,840 have you used this Chachi PT thing? 529 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,880 Yeah, it's amazing, right. So it's now it's in the hands of 530 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:03,000 the people. So this new inflection point, I 531 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,120 think gives you the, the perspective what is driving 532 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:11,120 innovation in companies today, the same way that cloud drove 533 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:12,840 innovation for the last 20 years. 534 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:15,800 It's undeniable cloud drove that type of innovation. 535 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:19,400 So you, you pay money to AWS, you pay money to Azure and you 536 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,800 run your workloads in the cloud. It's, it's better than in so 537 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:24,200 many ways, right? And more elastic and resilient, 538 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:27,440 etcetera. AI is driving this, this other 539 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:32,360 wave. And when we think of of, I think 540 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:37,600 was during the Salesforce event and, and Marc Benioff was 541 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:41,080 bashing Microsoft because no Co pilots are dead. 542 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:43,640 The, the cool thing now is AI agents. 543 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,080 That's that's that's why AI has to exist. 544 00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:51,720 And now man, it's again, it's a, it's a semantic type of 545 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,840 discussion that I think it's not very productive. 546 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:58,720 But those are different things. And, and, and there's not better 547 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:03,600 or worse thing, but a copilot is an assistant, right? 548 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,440 That that's by definition, a copilot is an assistant that 549 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:11,360 helps you generate code. It helps you to to generate 550 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:15,560 photos or or code or generate text. 551 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:19,960 So this an assistant. It could be also a chat bought 552 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:25,080 in a sense right translating natural language in a sequel 553 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:30,160 type of statement like a Claude and other models that can do 554 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:34,320 that very well. An agent is going to be 555 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:39,120 performing actions, so it could be a workflow or executing a 556 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:47,800 remediation or a lawyer type of agent or a marketing type of 557 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,640 agent. So this becomes more of an agent 558 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:57,520 in that way that execute tasks versus an agent that creates 559 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:01,360 content. So I think it's just a category 560 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:06,040 of of two types of of things that is not one better than the 561 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,000 other. There are applicability that you 562 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,520 got to have an assistant will be the best application. 563 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:14,520 An agent will be a better application for other things. 564 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:16,840 So that that's that's my interpretation of that. 565 00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:22,240 What's interesting, however, in that push to innovation, right? 566 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:26,640 So there's a lot of opportunity for us to still profit from that 567 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:30,920 cloud innovation curve. So how many start-ups can launch 568 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:32,840 their own products in in the cloud? 569 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:34,120 And that's still happening, right? 570 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:36,440 AI is going to be the same thing. 571 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:41,160 However, my prediction is that that curve is not going to take 572 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:45,440 20 years to maturity. Cloud today is mature, right? 573 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:48,640 Especially infrastructure as a service, even SAS, it's mature 574 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,040 AI. We're going to see that curve 575 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:57,040 going much faster. There's an an author called, 576 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:01,120 what's his name, Ray Ray Kurzweil. 577 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:03,240 I think that's his name, Ray Kurzweil. 578 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:07,760 And he's a, a futurist Ray Kurzweil. 579 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:13,800 He predicted that AI or technology singularity would 580 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:21,880 happen in 2040, five, 2045. But now this, this person 581 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,360 revised his prediction. No, no, it's not 2045 anymore. 582 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:30,800 It's going to be 2029. So and I, I was bang on and I, 583 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:35,199 I, I, I, I made my prediction before I saw his and I was just 584 00:34:35,199 --> 00:34:37,280 looking for evidence. OK, who always agrees with this 585 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:38,639 crazy stuff I'm talking about here. 586 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,960 But I think the wave for maturity in AI is going to 587 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:46,440 happen in the next 5 years. So Henrique, I think the whole 588 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:52,199 idea with agents or bots or Co pilots, I think it's going to 589 00:34:52,199 --> 00:34:57,160 sharpen my point on this holy war and the holy war. 590 00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:01,360 Jeff and I use this term, right, and we prime example of the holy 591 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:06,160 war is where should contractors be managed in the HR system or 592 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:10,520 something else? And you know, it's like each 593 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,520 time you go into a client, you talk to them about how they're 594 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:17,400 going to manage things going forward or where they are today, 595 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,560 it becomes a holy war. HR doesn't want to manage these 596 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:23,720 people or yadda, yadda. I don't want to talk about that. 597 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:28,200 What I want to talk about is a different holy war, which is 598 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:34,720 what should be the front end to your I, your access request 599 00:35:34,720 --> 00:35:39,240 process. So many companies say we want it 600 00:35:39,240 --> 00:35:41,920 to be our ITSM, our ticketing system. 601 00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:46,840 We want to take ServiceNow where you go and request everything 602 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:48,760 else in the organization. That's where you go to get a 603 00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:53,080 parking pass or a new iPhone or etcetera, etcetera. 604 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:57,720 Why can't you go there and ask for access to a folder? 605 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:01,240 Personally, I think it's a terrible idea. 606 00:36:01,240 --> 00:36:06,520 And I'll tell you, I think that the AI future is going to put an 607 00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:10,280 exclamation point on why I think this, which what I've always 608 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:13,800 felt was the change management for this is a nightmare. 609 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:18,360 But I think the bigger issue is going to be you're not going to 610 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:21,640 get to take advantage of all these things that are going to 611 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:25,200 be built into the front end with an IGA system. 612 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:29,720 So now I go into an IGA system and it tells me, well, you know, 613 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,200 you should request this access or you shouldn't request that 614 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:39,120 access, etcetera. Or even better, we get into a 615 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:43,800 generative interface where I say I need to give Henrique. 616 00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:47,320 I just hired Henrique. I need to give him access to the 617 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:50,360 accounting system similar to what Mark has. 618 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:54,240 And then it starts asking me questions and we going back and 619 00:36:54,240 --> 00:36:57,240 forth to have a question, a conversation until we get to the 620 00:36:57,240 --> 00:37:01,440 point where it's a well formed for quest that I submit. 621 00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:05,640 If you're using some intermediary front end, I just 622 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:08,800 don't see how you ever get to the point of being able to do 623 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:10,680 that. Yeah, but isn't this just the 624 00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:13,480 March of progress and technology? 625 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:17,680 We, there really wasn't an option to request access in this 626 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:21,000 scenario until let's say 10 years ago. 627 00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:24,240 It was you had to call the help desk, right? 628 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:27,000 Or walk down to a desk or something like that, right? 629 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:30,080 Somebody could do it. And then it became, oh, why 630 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:32,680 don't we try to Amazon this and make it more of an e-commerce 631 00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:34,120 style. Let's create a shopping cart. 632 00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:36,760 And then you have things like service now, right where you 633 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:39,200 have or other ticketing systems, right, where you have like all 634 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:41,400 your services listed and you can make a request. 635 00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:46,800 Now we're in the age of AI and we're seeing identity governance 636 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:49,800 vendors pull in some of that, right? 637 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:53,320 They've, most IGA players have had a request interface of some 638 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:55,480 sort, right? Whether it's Savient or Sale 639 00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:58,040 Point or Armada or Fisher or whatever it may be, right? 640 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:00,600 They all have that. Now we're looking to this AI 641 00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:04,320 future is what if your IGA didn't have a web interface and 642 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,320 it was a chat interface of some sort, natural language 643 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:08,720 processing, right? Things like that. 644 00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:11,600 The whole goal of those interfaces are to do what? 645 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:15,120 To request the access, to make sure that it's appropriate and 646 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:19,440 to log the proper approvals and receipt trail, right, so you can 647 00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:23,160 audit it, those sorts of things. Yeah, if you have to make like a 648 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:27,160 yeah, a wedging bat here. Yeah, I, I think Jim, and I'm 649 00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:31,560 sorry, I agree with Jeff here. I think I, I, I agree that the 650 00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:37,800 future of IGA and then all the things around life cycle, it 651 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:41,640 should live in a, in a more natural language, chat oriented. 652 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:43,800 So I'm a big proponent of chat OPS. 653 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:46,200 If you guys are familiar with what chat OPS is, but for the 654 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:49,440 sake of the audience here. So chat OPS is the ability of 655 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:53,280 using Slack or Jira or service analysis, whatever. 656 00:38:53,720 --> 00:38:58,320 So we already have those apps in your phone that you can check 657 00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:00,200 messages and respond to those messages. 658 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:06,360 So interacting with your IJ tool through Slack and, and, and it's 659 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:08,880 funny that we are also announcing that within saving 660 00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:10,080 it. So there's a company called 661 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:16,000 Pronoassis and they developed a chat bot, a chat bot for Slack 662 00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:19,920 that front faces saving it. And I think that's brilliant. 663 00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:22,920 I don't want to build an iOS app. 664 00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:26,920 I don't want to build a, a, an Android app because you already 665 00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:29,520 have an app, you already have teams, you have teams, you have 666 00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:32,760 Slack. So I think that's the future of 667 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:37,760 the human interfaces for today. It may change into the future to 668 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:42,600 be even more natural language, but I think I only see the 669 00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:44,360 benefits of doing it that way, right. 670 00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:48,920 So people, they are already used to use Servsina or is it teams 671 00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:52,440 or, or, or slack. So why not embrace it? 672 00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:55,240 And of course, we, we still have all the controls for segregation 673 00:39:55,240 --> 00:39:58,840 of duties or separation of duties for fine grain 674 00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:01,520 entitlement and, and, and all, the, all the things that we need 675 00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:03,200 to do from a security standpoint. 676 00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:05,360 And yeah, as IJ can continue to do that. 677 00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:09,000 But from a front end, I think the future is on chat OPS. 678 00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:11,720 It doesn't replace things that we that exist today either, 679 00:40:11,720 --> 00:40:13,400 right I think. We're in this transitional 680 00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:14,320 state, right? It's that's. 681 00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:16,320 Exactly. Another arrow in the quiver. 682 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:19,040 It's like, OK, yes, you can interface with my web interface, 683 00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:22,600 or you can my chat bot, or send me an iMessage or RCS message or 684 00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:23,560 whatever it is you're using, right? 685 00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:25,560 Those sorts of things. That's kind of how I always 686 00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:27,440 think about it too. Yeah, exactly. 687 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:32,200 So my point is, OK, where I'm confused is, is what you're 688 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:38,400 saying that if I'm a client now, a customer of yours now and I'm 689 00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:43,440 implementing my IGA system for the first time or maybe I had 690 00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:47,080 one that was like 20 years old, something like that, and now I'm 691 00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:50,040 going to buy your software, I'm going to implement it. 692 00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,080 Would you tell me? And I tell you, I want to use 693 00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:57,920 ServiceNow because ServiceNow is where people go to request 694 00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:00,160 everything, parking pass, etcetera. 695 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:03,080 I don't want to give them a new place to go. 696 00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:07,520 Are you, are you going to discourage that because. 697 00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:10,120 If you say let's go, let's do it, let's do it, let's use 698 00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:13,200 Servsenal, let's use Servsenal. And we have a native integration 699 00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:16,160 with Savant, right? I think modern IJ providers, 700 00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:19,120 even before I joined Savant, I was recommending vendors say 701 00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:23,400 this is the future. We, we, we should not fight this 702 00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:26,960 holy war anymore, right? So you have this front end, you 703 00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:30,840 have trained thousands of employees to use service now, So 704 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:33,200 why are you trying to train them in something else? 705 00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:35,360 So they are training using that interface. 706 00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:38,320 Don't fight against that tide, right? 707 00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:41,680 And we connect in the back end. So we have service catalog 708 00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:44,120 integrations, right? So the same way you can request 709 00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:47,400 your laptop to be fixed, you could request this new package. 710 00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:50,880 Now there's the whole AI thing. And I agree with you, Jim, in 711 00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:56,400 that one that we can use RBAC up to a point, right? 712 00:41:56,400 --> 00:42:00,560 So you package everything, you make that package requestable 713 00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:03,400 within ServiceNow. You get to the point where 714 00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:06,280 things get so granular. And I think we're not there yet, 715 00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:09,000 but we get to the point where you're going to open a SaaS 716 00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:15,000 application on your phone or in a browser and say it looks like 717 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:18,040 you're trying to access this app and you don't have access. 718 00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:21,440 Would you like to open request right now, Right. 719 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,520 And, and and then things happen even before you know it's 720 00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:27,560 already a flow going on, right. I think that's where we're going 721 00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:30,240 to go. So you're saying it's kind of a 722 00:42:30,240 --> 00:42:32,840 multi channel way to go ahead? And very much. 723 00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:36,520 Omni channel identity and access management request. 724 00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:41,520 That's the future guys, absolutely yeah and I and I I 725 00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:44,360 can't force everybody going through my own interface all the 726 00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:47,000 time. That's not kids these days, 727 00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:48,960 right? So they they are they're multi 728 00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:51,640 channel. They they're they're using 729 00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:53,040 Roblox to chat. Come on. 730 00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:55,360 So we we got to keep up with the times. 731 00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:57,640 You know, Jimmy bring up an interesting point, because they 732 00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:00,360 think this is a a struggle that a lot of organizations faces. 733 00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:04,720 Yeah, we are deploying an IGA. And I think by default, I think 734 00:43:04,720 --> 00:43:07,160 a lot of folks are like, yeah, let's put it, make it part of 735 00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:10,600 our, our ITSM system, which Henrique, to your point, right, 736 00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:13,000 we've, we've trained our users already how to do that. 737 00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:16,280 But I think it's an interesting approach to say, hey, you know, 738 00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:18,520 why don't we do a little bit of both? 739 00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:21,760 Yes, let's do the ITSM integration, but why don't we 740 00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:24,520 also consider some sort of chat bot type approach, right? 741 00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:28,000 Or a conversational approach of how do I do this? 742 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:30,040 Maybe it's a little thing that it's in the corner and it's 743 00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:32,040 like, hey, it's not replacing anything. 744 00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:33,920 But hey, do you want to try the future, right? 745 00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:35,080 Or do you want to test it, right? 746 00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:36,280 Or, you know, do things like that. 747 00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:39,240 I think there's an opportunity here where, you know, products 748 00:43:39,240 --> 00:43:44,120 in this space could layer on some sort of conversational, you 749 00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:46,000 know, approach to requesting access. 750 00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:49,440 Because the, the biggest concern that a lot of people have when 751 00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:52,840 it comes to this is I don't know what I'm requesting access for. 752 00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:54,720 I don't, I don't know any. All I know is I need to get to 753 00:43:54,720 --> 00:43:57,440 this file. And if there is something behind 754 00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:00,520 the scenes that translate that to say, hey, Jim, I need access 755 00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:04,040 to the, the logo file for the Identity Center podcast, you 756 00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:07,720 know, oh, OK. You know, the the robot figures 757 00:44:07,720 --> 00:44:10,160 that out for me, handles all the approvals and maybe you get a 758 00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:13,080 text message and it's like, hey, Jeff wants to access this file, 759 00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:14,960 is that okay? And you just say, yeah, through 760 00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:17,120 a text message, right? Or something like that. 761 00:44:17,240 --> 00:44:18,040 Yes. Exactly. 762 00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:20,720 And then it's like, okay, you've got all the things that you 763 00:44:20,720 --> 00:44:24,000 would normally do through an ecommerce type approach. 764 00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:27,280 Traditional I will say is still logged and happening. 765 00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:29,080 But anything that removes that friction I think is really 766 00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:30,440 interesting. And I would be curious to see, 767 00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:33,280 you know, what are the some of the solutions out there that can 768 00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:35,400 layer on that chat bot type approach Because I don't think 769 00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:38,600 ServiceNow as it exists now is going to be the way ServiceNow 770 00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:40,880 does it in the next 5. Ten years there already. 771 00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:44,040 Yeah, yeah, to your point, I think multi channel is is the 772 00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:46,320 answer, right. It it really depends on on 773 00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:53,720 culture what your users are more familiar with it it if if they 774 00:44:53,720 --> 00:44:57,880 use a lot of Slack right. And having that integrated with 775 00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:01,960 Slack, we had IBMIBM is using Savant internally for their own 776 00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:04,240 employees. They built their own chat bot, 777 00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:09,280 this AI chat bot based on Watson, whatever Watson acts 778 00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:11,400 that interacts with Savant, right? 779 00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:14,400 So they also built this, this, this thing because well, now we 780 00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:16,120 are IBM, we're using Watson, that's it. 781 00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:19,800 Good. So I think having this openness 782 00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:23,000 right to to communicate through multiple channels, I think it's 783 00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:26,400 the direction of the future. I'm not going to be strong 784 00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:29,000 arming users. Yeah, you got to use through my 785 00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:30,800 own interface. I think that's the wrong way to 786 00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:32,800 do it. Enrique is not going to show up 787 00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:35,200 at your desk and put you in a headlock and say submit this 788 00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:36,360 form. Yeah. 789 00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:40,480 Maybe he will, maybe he will. I don't know that you know 790 00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:43,080 Henrique well enough to say that he won't do that. 791 00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:46,800 Here's my gift to you, Henrique. You need a trademark Henrique I 792 00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:50,960 and then make a chat bot. Enrique, I love. 793 00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:52,800 It thank you. Thank you, Jeff. 794 00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:56,400 So think about it. Henrique, let's shift topics a 795 00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:59,680 little bit because I think it's fair to say, at least I'm going 796 00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:03,160 to say you don't have to agree, is that you're an influencer 797 00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:07,000 within this space. You a lot of people follow you 798 00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:12,680 and look to your vision, your strategy for the identity space. 799 00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:17,040 And I I've got to think that you're pulling inspiration from 800 00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:18,880 others, right? I mean, that's how it works. 801 00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:20,800 Oh, yeah. I want to know who are some of 802 00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:25,440 the other influencers that you're following and what 803 00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:28,320 they're talking about that excites you and kind of like 804 00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:32,440 informs you to build your perspective on the world. 805 00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:34,960 No thank. It's a great question, Jim. 806 00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:39,600 And it's funny that sometimes I find people that say, oh, why, 807 00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:41,880 why haven't I met this person yet? 808 00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:45,640 Right. So one of them is and because of 809 00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:49,000 my job today, I'd say I'm in charge of strategy. 810 00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:51,520 So I'm thinking about strategy a lot. 811 00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:55,200 I'm, I'm, I'm studying more about the discipline of 812 00:46:55,200 --> 00:47:00,000 strategy. So there's this guy named Eric 813 00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:02,600 Leach. He used to work at Strata 814 00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:07,520 Identity and he writes a lot about strategy. 815 00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:14,280 And I think if, if you, I think he has his own blog on Medium 816 00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:16,240 and, and stuff like that. But there's one thing that it 817 00:47:16,240 --> 00:47:18,360 really stuck with me and perhaps with the audience would be 818 00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:19,840 interesting as well to understand that. 819 00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:23,040 So one of the things that I do is to think about the vision of 820 00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:27,000 saving long term and etcetera. And it said something even 821 00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:30,120 before we, we, we stop to write and think and, and, and 822 00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:32,600 communicate vision. We got to think about purpose. 823 00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:36,800 That really stuck to me. So what are we trying to do with 824 00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:39,160 this? What is the problem we're trying 825 00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:42,040 to solve? Oh, oh, we were trying to 826 00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:44,600 prevent things or we're trying to detect things. 827 00:47:44,720 --> 00:47:49,960 OK, now with that purpose in your mind, you can draw a, a 828 00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:53,680 vision where you want to be, right? 829 00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:57,200 So OK, we're, we're protecting this or we're doing this, we're 830 00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:59,360 detecting that and then vision comes. 831 00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:04,680 So Eric Leach is one that I, I, I strongly recommend people to 832 00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:08,080 follow. The other one that come that 833 00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:13,800 comes across is one of the founders of Netflix, Mark 834 00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:17,400 Randolph, and he's very active on LinkedIn as well. 835 00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:20,880 And I wish I could meet him one day, but he seems a very 836 00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:23,960 interesting guy. And he said this thing that 837 00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:25,920 stuck with me as well, especially because strategy, 838 00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:28,840 right? So a good strategy is not about 839 00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:31,000 having that great idea that one idea. 840 00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:36,680 It's about having a a system that allows you to test as many 841 00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:41,960 ideas as you can, right? So being inclusive, not to be 842 00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:45,400 constrained by my own thoughts because I, I, I joke to say I'm, 843 00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:47,800 I'm just a guy. I'm one guy, right? 844 00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:50,880 I'm, I'm, I'm too limited in my own capacity. 845 00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:53,040 So I, I really like that concept. 846 00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:58,960 OK, creating that system of just testing very quickly as many 847 00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:02,880 ideas as possible and coming up, well, OK, now you have like 10 848 00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:05,080 amazing ideas. I think that's really eye 849 00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:07,400 opening. So we're coming up here at the 850 00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:10,520 end of 2024. It's always good to look back 851 00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:12,680 and say, you know, what got accomplished. 852 00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:14,240 What do you think it will be remembered for? 853 00:49:14,240 --> 00:49:16,600 Things like that. How do you think identity is 854 00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:19,760 going to be remembered for in 2024? 855 00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:22,720 Were there any specific trends or topics or or things that jump 856 00:49:22,720 --> 00:49:26,320 to mind? I think 2024 was the year of 857 00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:29,720 ITDR, if you will. I think it became very 858 00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:33,280 mainstream. We spoke about that HIP 859 00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:36,600 conference, the Hybrid Identity Protection Conference. 860 00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:43,080 Man, it was a whole conference, like 2 1/2 days, just about ITDR 861 00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:45,440 basically. Wow, this is crazy. 862 00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:50,400 So I think if I had to choose one thing that was very, very 863 00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:52,920 popular this year and identity will be remembered. 864 00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:56,200 Yeah, the identity breaches, right, That happened all, all 865 00:49:56,200 --> 00:50:01,440 the stuff that we did to protect our systems against those type 866 00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:03,920 of breaches. I think that's what the year is 867 00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:07,160 going to be remembered for. Jim, what about yourself? 868 00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:11,080 What does 2024 bring for you? You know, I, I feel like the 869 00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:17,400 recognition or the creation of identity security as a concept, 870 00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:22,440 which has a lot to do with concepts like ITDRI. 871 00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:25,080 Think if we look back on this year though, it's like a 872 00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:27,280 formulation era. There's a lot of things being 873 00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:33,160 put out there. ITDRISPM wallets. 874 00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:36,080 Machine identities, right? Machine identity, blockchain 875 00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:38,760 identity. Yeah, yeah, Non human identity 876 00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:42,160 is like, well, I feel like non human identity has always been 877 00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:43,680 there. It's just like the recognition 878 00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:46,440 all of a sudden that, Oh my gosh, there's a problem. 879 00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:50,320 Oh, you got to protect that too. That's an art scope. 880 00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:57,080 So there's all these things like what's going to actually, you 881 00:50:57,080 --> 00:51:00,800 know, stick around and be a part of the future and what's going 882 00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:06,920 to kind of fall off the plate. To me, that's the year. 883 00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:09,800 I don't know that it's 2024 specific, but it feels like 884 00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:14,840 we're at that point where it's like we're up to here with ideas 885 00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:18,240 and some of them, you know, nothing ever comes to a clean 886 00:51:18,240 --> 00:51:22,880 death in the identity space. Think about UEBA, right? 887 00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:25,120 It was like all we could talk about 3 or 4 years ago. 888 00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:28,000 Nobody talks about it now. But has anybody declared it 889 00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:30,480 dead? Or is it now just like? 890 00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:34,840 It evolved into, you know, ITDR. Almost. 891 00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:39,280 OK, yeah, yeah, I agree. It kind of evolved and like 892 00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:44,320 nobody declared it dead. It, it becomes a, a capability 893 00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:46,560 of something else, right? And I think that's, that's what 894 00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:48,040 may happen with active Dr. as well. 895 00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:52,240 It are becoming a capability of, of bigger markets like XDR or, 896 00:51:52,240 --> 00:51:54,120 or SIM or whatever, you name it, right? 897 00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:57,600 So you're building this tool and it has ICDR capabilities in it, 898 00:51:57,720 --> 00:51:59,640 right? And that's something that I I 899 00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:02,760 had predicted before as well. I think the health of the 900 00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:08,480 industry is that you're seeing the leaders continue to invest 901 00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:13,760 in their platforms, bring in new things and hopefully get 902 00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:16,440 stronger. But also the startup community 903 00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:18,880 is as vibrant and as strong as ever. 904 00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:23,320 You go to conferences in the identity space, but I think in 905 00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:27,280 cybersecurity overall, and there's like just so many 906 00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:31,320 startups out there, and it's not like they are, you know, just 907 00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:33,160 trying to add a feature on to something else. 908 00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:36,840 Like some of them are incredible and they're taking on big 909 00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:39,400 problems and taking them on in new ways. 910 00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:43,600 And that, I think, is an indication of like how healthy 911 00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:47,280 the industry is. I think for me, you guys have 912 00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:50,800 both really good answers. I think it's, it's still AI like 913 00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:54,280 it seems like everything, every topic this year that we talked 914 00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:58,960 about had some infusion of some level of AI and how are we going 915 00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:01,000 to plan for this? How are we going to integrate 916 00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:02,320 it? How are we going to leverage it, 917 00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:03,680 right? How are we going to protect it? 918 00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:05,560 How are we going to protect against it? 919 00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:09,800 I feel like AI is sort of like the this thing that's sort of 920 00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:12,800 like the shark beneath the the waters. 921 00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:14,040 Or maybe it's the iceberg, right? 922 00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:16,080 You've got this. Little no, it's the wave, man. 923 00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:20,080 It's the wave rising cloud is the now is the, the AI wave. 924 00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:22,880 So absolutely everything that we spoke about, I think they're, 925 00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:25,120 they're, they're surfing the wave of AI. 926 00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:28,160 So I, I agree 100%. So the same way we surfed the 927 00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:32,240 cloud wave and and we had the start-ups way back like autumn 928 00:53:32,240 --> 00:53:36,200 eyes and cloud knocks and Airmatic for that cloud wave. 929 00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:38,400 We're going to have that. That's going to happen again, 930 00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:42,320 man for AI, And I think that's the the the push of innovation 931 00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:47,240 identity itself, it's protecting that and that's the constant, 932 00:53:47,240 --> 00:53:48,920 right? The constant of all the waves 933 00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:54,400 sees the mainframe through the decentralized compute to cloud 934 00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:59,000 to AI identity as a constant, right, Like Jem said, but even 935 00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:01,360 machine identities, it's been there forever. 936 00:54:01,960 --> 00:54:05,720 It's just now we have this different type of pushes or 937 00:54:05,720 --> 00:54:08,440 waves, like I said this, this shark now in, in the water. 938 00:54:10,240 --> 00:54:16,040 I, I still think 2024 being that year of threat became like 939 00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:19,400 mainstream. But at the same and, and, and I 940 00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:21,640 spoke exactly about that, Jeff. Two things that happened in 941 00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:28,280 2022-2023 with real exploit 2024 was AI and identity threats. 942 00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:30,640 Those two things that can happen at the same time. 943 00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:35,040 So what about 2025? Any predictions for next year? 944 00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:37,560 Are we still going to be talking about AI the same level we are 945 00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:39,160 now? What do you think, Enrique? 946 00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:41,800 Yeah, I think we're going to still surfing that wave, right, 947 00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:46,640 at least for the next until 2025, until 2029 when we hit 948 00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:49,520 singularity and AI becomes more powerful than us. 949 00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:53,560 And in humans, I think that the big prediction for next year is 950 00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:58,680 going to be identity or machine identity security, which is 951 00:54:58,680 --> 00:55:02,400 something that we briefly spoke about here in this episode 952 00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:05,120 today, is that it's being there forever. 953 00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:09,200 But now people, OK, I think we've done a decent job with 954 00:55:09,200 --> 00:55:10,840 workforce. We didn't, we've done a decent 955 00:55:10,840 --> 00:55:14,880 job with CIM and externals. Oh, what are those machine 956 00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:16,680 doing? And it will become like 957 00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:19,520 undeniable. We can't ignore this problem 958 00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:22,840 anymore. So I think for next year, I do 959 00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:27,760 predict that organizations that invest more time and money into 960 00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:31,120 finding basic things like visibility and hygiene of 961 00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:35,920 machines, they will improve their resilience in cyber like 962 00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:38,880 considerably. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm estimating 963 00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:45,280 from 30 to 50% efficacy of, of protection or being stronger and 964 00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:48,520 more resilient. I like that prediction because I 965 00:55:48,520 --> 00:55:51,440 feel that spot on, you know, and again, it tails back into this 966 00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:55,480 AI, there's going to be this explosion of non humans doing 967 00:55:55,480 --> 00:55:57,920 things in our environments. We have to manage those things. 968 00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:00,200 So I feel like this whole, whatever you want to call it, 969 00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:02,240 machine identity, non human identity, I think, I think we 970 00:56:02,240 --> 00:56:05,040 need to settle on what that definition might be as an 971 00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:07,360 industry. But that whole idea of like, OK, 972 00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:09,720 there's going to be little bots running around and there might 973 00:56:09,720 --> 00:56:13,120 be, they might be so ephemeral. They only exist for a 974 00:56:13,120 --> 00:56:16,680 millisecond because their whole task is to do one thing and it's 975 00:56:16,680 --> 00:56:18,800 gone. And being able to track all 976 00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:21,040 that, it's going to be really interesting and I think really 977 00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:24,280 compute intensive to try and track all that type of stuff. 978 00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:26,600 Jim, what about you? What do you want to predict for 979 00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:30,160 2025? I got something but I want I 980 00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:33,040 first wanted to say. So we did a podcast with David 981 00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:36,840 Motti recently and we talked about non human identities. 982 00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:41,600 And one thing he argued for is that we shouldn't define 983 00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:47,080 something as what it's not. So saying that is a non human is 984 00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:49,320 defining by something by what it's not. 985 00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:52,640 And anyway, so that's a little side note. 986 00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:54,360 Yeah, but let's talk about that real quick. 987 00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:56,640 Two minutes if I may. That's a that's a good point. 988 00:56:56,640 --> 00:57:00,760 And see, that's why I like David, he says Mark Guy defining 989 00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:03,480 things by whether or not is like a like a Turing machine. 990 00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:05,360 It's called a Turing Turing machine. 991 00:57:05,360 --> 00:57:07,080 It's like a Turing non human, right? 992 00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:13,120 But non human is not wrong in the sense that we have humans 993 00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:15,720 and we have non humans. In that category of non humans 994 00:57:15,720 --> 00:57:18,960 are cats, they're dogs, right? They're animals or bacteria. 995 00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:23,720 There's ghosts and there is machines, right? 996 00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:27,280 So I see machine as a subset of non human machines. 997 00:57:27,280 --> 00:57:29,000 Machine. You could break that down into 998 00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:34,280 workloads and devices. So I think non human is not 999 00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:37,200 completely wrong. It's just that it's a, it's a 1000 00:57:37,200 --> 00:57:40,640 much bigger scope of things that we're not talking about. 1001 00:57:40,640 --> 00:57:43,520 I'm not talking about cats and dogs, I'm talking about 1002 00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:46,280 machines. So it's a non human but it's a 1003 00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:49,760 machine and then with the machine it's either workload or 1004 00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:53,600 a device. It helps group this concept 1005 00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:55,960 which I don't think is well managed as people. 1006 00:57:56,120 --> 00:58:00,760 And when you look at enterprise people, there's kind of a way to 1007 00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:03,400 manage them. They start an HR system, they go 1008 00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:07,560 into your IGA system, they get provisioned access, etcetera. 1009 00:58:08,720 --> 00:58:12,240 Machines like what's the authoritative source for machine 1010 00:58:12,240 --> 00:58:14,920 accounts that there's really not? 1011 00:58:15,160 --> 00:58:19,320 And the kind of identity or machine or account that Jeff 1012 00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:24,480 mentioned that is created for in an ephemeral nature is a lot 1013 00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:28,000 different than the Active Directory Service account that 1014 00:58:28,240 --> 00:58:31,960 is used by the SQL Server that was set up 12 years ago. 1015 00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:36,600 Yeah, yeah. So the way we're defining that 1016 00:58:36,600 --> 00:58:40,160 Savient, it's it's and this is important, right. 1017 00:58:40,160 --> 00:58:44,960 So the the the hierarchy or the taxonomy of that. 1018 00:58:44,960 --> 00:58:48,520 So we we categorize it as a machine identity, a machine 1019 00:58:48,520 --> 00:58:51,920 account and a machine credential, three different 1020 00:58:51,920 --> 00:58:53,480 levels. And we can talk about that 1021 00:58:53,480 --> 00:58:57,280 perhaps some other day, but there's a, yeah, some lack of 1022 00:58:57,280 --> 00:58:59,520 clarity of what are we talking about here. 1023 00:58:59,520 --> 00:59:02,320 And to your point, yes, there's no alternative source for 1024 00:59:02,320 --> 00:59:05,880 identities that are machine based most of the time. 1025 00:59:07,320 --> 00:59:10,840 All right, here's my bonus 2020. 5I I got to answer this 2025 1026 00:59:10,840 --> 00:59:12,720 because I did. I'm sorry I took this off track 1027 00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:17,440 there, but so you know me, Jeff. Doom and gloom. 1028 00:59:18,680 --> 00:59:22,840 So here's my doom and gloom prediction for 2025 S Nobody. 1029 00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:24,960 Great, everything's going to work. 1030 00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:29,160 New Year's Eve, you should be celebrating the year behind, not 1031 00:59:29,160 --> 00:59:34,440 the year forward. The So here's my concern is as 1032 00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:37,480 humans, we react to things that happen. 1033 00:59:37,920 --> 00:59:41,960 You know, people fly planes into a building. 1034 00:59:42,600 --> 00:59:44,120 We start screening people better. 1035 00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:46,560 We don't think, oh, somebody could fly a plane into a 1036 00:59:46,560 --> 00:59:48,960 building, so we better start screening people better to 1037 00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:51,280 prevent that. So it's very unfortunate. 1038 00:59:51,280 --> 00:59:54,440 That is human nature. And I kind of feel like identity 1039 00:59:54,440 --> 00:59:58,600 security is in the same place where people actually have to be 1040 00:59:58,600 --> 01:00:02,640 breach or breaches have to be on the front page of the Wall 1041 01:00:02,640 --> 01:00:05,640 Street Journal. More and more so that you can't 1042 01:00:05,640 --> 01:00:10,960 escape the issue for people to amass invest in identity 1043 01:00:10,960 --> 01:00:13,400 security. But that's what's going to 1044 01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:16,760 happen at some point, whether it's 2025 or later, I don't 1045 01:00:16,760 --> 01:00:18,800 know. But I think there is going to 1046 01:00:18,800 --> 01:00:24,800 be, you know, a sharp increase in breaches that drive the 1047 01:00:24,800 --> 01:00:28,120 identity security investment. It makes sense, right? 1048 01:00:28,120 --> 01:00:31,440 So what you're saying is that it's going to get worse before 1049 01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:32,640 it gets a little bit better, right? 1050 01:00:33,280 --> 01:00:36,120 It's going to get worse before people go and get behind this 1051 01:00:36,120 --> 01:00:38,080 thing. It it makes lots of sense. 1052 01:00:38,080 --> 01:00:41,000 No, I don't think it human nature of people thinking, yeah. 1053 01:00:41,680 --> 01:00:44,560 I don't think it it, I don't think it necessarily impedes 1054 01:00:44,560 --> 01:00:46,160 though the pace of innovation, right? 1055 01:00:46,160 --> 01:00:48,800 What we're talking about is, is investment. 1056 01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:51,880 And yes, you know, we are humans and budgets are limited and 1057 01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:54,960 people go where the fire is and they put out the fire. 1058 01:00:55,160 --> 01:00:57,680 There will still be people who are thinking about where will 1059 01:00:57,680 --> 01:01:00,800 the fire go next? And products will be developed 1060 01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:02,400 in anticipation of where those go. 1061 01:01:02,400 --> 01:01:05,200 And sometimes they're right and they make a billion dollars and 1062 01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:07,520 sometimes they're wrong and they fail or it wasn't the right, you 1063 01:01:07,520 --> 01:01:11,080 know, solution where it may be. And so, you know, I, I'm with 1064 01:01:11,080 --> 01:01:12,200 you, Jim. I'm trying to make it take a 1065 01:01:12,200 --> 01:01:14,200 more positive spin on it to try and end our show. 1066 01:01:15,560 --> 01:01:18,360 But I'm with you because it, it does take a bad thing to happen 1067 01:01:18,600 --> 01:01:21,000 sometimes to OK, well, we can't have that again. 1068 01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:24,760 We can't have another, you know, socks, you know, finding or we 1069 01:01:24,760 --> 01:01:27,840 can't have another regulatory finding or a breach or whatever 1070 01:01:27,840 --> 01:01:30,600 it may be. We have to invest and catch up. 1071 01:01:30,600 --> 01:01:32,720 And I think that's where a lot of companies fall into this trap 1072 01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:35,680 of what I call the peaks and valleys of their investments is 1073 01:01:36,360 --> 01:01:39,840 they didn't keep sustained investment to keep pace and keep 1074 01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:43,240 good security posture management in place. 1075 01:01:43,920 --> 01:01:47,760 They did a spend, caught up and then let it die slowly. 1076 01:01:47,880 --> 01:01:49,760 And then now they're doing another spend and they're going 1077 01:01:49,760 --> 01:01:52,800 back up again instead of having this this, this consistent 1078 01:01:52,800 --> 01:01:57,480 approach to it. I agree, which I I had a comment 1079 01:01:57,480 --> 01:02:01,720 on that the last thought of how we keep things interesting, 1080 01:02:01,800 --> 01:02:03,840 right. So posture management becomes 1081 01:02:03,840 --> 01:02:06,360 day of your life. And one thing that I caught up 1082 01:02:06,360 --> 01:02:10,120 during my, my recent travels, which has, they have been quite 1083 01:02:10,120 --> 01:02:15,000 intense is Duolingo, right? I, I, I'm, I'm learning French 1084 01:02:15,440 --> 01:02:17,440 and I, I can order tea in French now. 1085 01:02:17,680 --> 01:02:19,920 It works. It works and, and, and that type 1086 01:02:19,920 --> 01:02:21,880 of gamification. So I'm, I'm thinking perhaps 1087 01:02:21,880 --> 01:02:24,760 that we could do that, something like that for identity posture 1088 01:02:24,760 --> 01:02:29,600 that becomes something more acceptable, right? 1089 01:02:29,640 --> 01:02:31,480 Yeah. Nobody likes to wake up in the 1090 01:02:31,480 --> 01:02:34,480 morning and work out. But that's basically what we're 1091 01:02:34,480 --> 01:02:36,440 describing that identity security posture management 1092 01:02:36,440 --> 01:02:38,640 requires. If you can figure out how to 1093 01:02:38,640 --> 01:02:43,320 turn World of Warcraft into some sort of, you know, gamification 1094 01:02:43,320 --> 01:02:45,600 of identity management, I am right there with you, baby. 1095 01:02:46,520 --> 01:02:48,400 There you go, man. Start up time, yeah. 1096 01:02:49,400 --> 01:02:51,040 All right, let's go ahead and start wrap things up. 1097 01:02:51,040 --> 01:02:53,640 I, I got to ask because you mentioned it earlier, Henrique, 1098 01:02:53,760 --> 01:02:56,720 Mike Tyson versus Jake Paul. You know, they, they fought a 1099 01:02:56,720 --> 01:02:59,080 couple weeks ago at this point, you know, what are, what are 1100 01:02:59,080 --> 01:03:02,560 your thoughts on that? Man, it, it is crazy because my 1101 01:03:02,560 --> 01:03:05,120 son was asking me about this because when I say, hey, I'm 1102 01:03:05,120 --> 01:03:07,480 going to do this podcast today and say, OK, are you going to be 1103 01:03:07,480 --> 01:03:09,040 talking about Mike Tyson? Say what? 1104 01:03:09,040 --> 01:03:12,360 No, I so now I I think I'm I have but now. 1105 01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:15,200 You can say you kid, you did. Yeah, we did talk about Mike 1106 01:03:15,200 --> 01:03:18,400 Tyson, man, what I think was amazing is that how many 1107 01:03:18,400 --> 01:03:22,600 generations were watching that thing from from Gen. alphas all 1108 01:03:22,600 --> 01:03:27,640 the way to boomers and and and and different preferences. 1109 01:03:27,640 --> 01:03:30,520 Of course I, I, I wanted Mike Tyson to win. 1110 01:03:30,520 --> 01:03:33,400 I think people, my generation would would perhaps OK, yeah. 1111 01:03:33,400 --> 01:03:38,120 There's no, no way this YouTube will, will, will I, I thought 1112 01:03:38,120 --> 01:03:41,240 Jake Paul would will lose that one on points, but I think 1113 01:03:41,240 --> 01:03:44,000 there's a lot of the controversy came in about the things he said 1114 01:03:44,000 --> 01:03:47,600 after the fight, right. And so, yeah, I that he took it 1115 01:03:47,600 --> 01:03:53,400 easy on, on Mike and, and which is kind of weird, but before all 1116 01:03:53,400 --> 01:03:56,200 the the hype came in, I thought, well, man, this guy's going to 1117 01:03:56,200 --> 01:03:57,840 be destroyed. I think Mike Tyson's going to 1118 01:03:57,840 --> 01:04:02,960 kill this guy. And and there was a fight before 1119 01:04:02,960 --> 01:04:04,280 the main match. I don't know if you guys saw it. 1120 01:04:04,280 --> 01:04:08,000 Did you guys watch it Was a was a Brazilian was a Brazilian 1121 01:04:08,480 --> 01:04:11,360 comedian was a Brazilian comedy called Winderson Nunes the 1122 01:04:11,360 --> 01:04:16,960 Winderson is a is a stand up comedy comic in in Brazil turn 1123 01:04:16,960 --> 01:04:23,000 into fighter and now and then and he got demolished right by 1124 01:04:23,000 --> 01:04:27,880 this this Indian boxer. And I thought yeah, that that's 1125 01:04:27,880 --> 01:04:32,680 that's what I would expect to happen with with Jake Paul, but 1126 01:04:32,680 --> 01:04:36,960 I was wrong. I think as many people, I think 1127 01:04:36,960 --> 01:04:38,120 a lot of people. That was a weird. 1128 01:04:38,120 --> 01:04:39,960 Fight. I mean, it was an exhibition, 1129 01:04:40,000 --> 01:04:42,400 right? I mean, let's look, Father Time 1130 01:04:42,400 --> 01:04:45,720 is undefeated, right? Tyson is 58 years old. 1131 01:04:46,160 --> 01:04:48,440 You know, I sneeze and sometimes my back hurts. 1132 01:04:48,480 --> 01:04:53,040 He got into a ring and went 12 rounds with a young man who is 1133 01:04:53,040 --> 01:04:55,760 a, you know, a, a, an established fighter. 1134 01:04:55,760 --> 01:04:58,120 I don't know how good he is, but he's been in the ring and he's 1135 01:04:58,120 --> 01:04:59,920 been fighting. You know, he's got some success 1136 01:04:59,920 --> 01:05:03,320 there. But 58 years old, Hey, man, you 1137 01:05:03,320 --> 01:05:05,880 know that's off to you. I would have loved to see Tyson 1138 01:05:05,880 --> 01:05:08,760 win only because I think it's like a generational thing, 1139 01:05:08,760 --> 01:05:10,160 right? You grew up with Mike Tyson, you 1140 01:05:10,160 --> 01:05:12,280 grew up with Michael Jordan, you grew up with Walter Payton, 1141 01:05:12,280 --> 01:05:13,600 right? All these sports heroes of your 1142 01:05:13,600 --> 01:05:16,520 time, you don't wanna see them get dethroned. 1143 01:05:17,000 --> 01:05:19,880 And hey, Tyson made what, $20 million? 1144 01:05:21,720 --> 01:05:24,360 I I don't need to go 12 rounds, you know, someone can, someone 1145 01:05:24,360 --> 01:05:26,640 can push me and I'll take the $20 million and I'll fall down 1146 01:05:26,640 --> 01:05:29,520 and take the TKO. Right, exactly. 1147 01:05:29,520 --> 01:05:32,960 But but I'll tell you what, also hats off to to that guy, Jake 1148 01:05:32,960 --> 01:05:36,400 Paul, just to orchestrate this, this whole endeavor, right. 1149 01:05:36,400 --> 01:05:39,960 And he has this vision of OK, I'm, I'm gonna number one, I'm 1150 01:05:39,960 --> 01:05:42,960 gonna learn a new sport and I'm gonna fight perhaps the, the, 1151 01:05:43,000 --> 01:05:45,960 the GOAT. And, and to make that happen, 1152 01:05:45,960 --> 01:05:50,760 yeah, it takes a lot of yeah. Jake Paul got 40 million for the 1153 01:05:50,760 --> 01:05:54,520 fight and Enrique I don't. And Jeff, I don't know if you 1154 01:05:54,520 --> 01:05:58,200 guys watched the fight or not, but Jake Paul definitely could 1155 01:05:58,200 --> 01:06:02,280 have pummeled Mike Tyson. First off, he was like 6 inches 1156 01:06:02,280 --> 01:06:05,800 taller and bigger. Exactly, his reach was. 1157 01:06:05,960 --> 01:06:11,320 For my my fellow 50 year old and plus, you know you're not going 1158 01:06:11,320 --> 01:06:14,320 to beat somebody in their 20s who's more fit than you. 1159 01:06:14,400 --> 01:06:15,360 It's just. Not good to. 1160 01:06:15,360 --> 01:06:19,720 Happen, you know, if it was a one round fight, Tyson might 1161 01:06:19,720 --> 01:06:23,920 have been OK, but your VO2 Max, which is like your ability to 1162 01:06:23,920 --> 01:06:29,840 move oxygen around your body at 58 years old versus a young man 1163 01:06:29,840 --> 01:06:33,040 in his 20s and his prime, that's just. 1164 01:06:33,560 --> 01:06:37,120 Did I say Father Time? The idea of him lasting, I think 1165 01:06:37,120 --> 01:06:41,080 it was an 8 round fight, the idea of Tyson and and he was 1166 01:06:41,080 --> 01:06:45,040 exhausted by the end. But Tyson said one thing at the 1167 01:06:45,040 --> 01:06:47,720 end which is he doesn't know if that's his last fight. 1168 01:06:48,400 --> 01:06:51,880 Why would it be? Who amongst us wouldn't go in 1169 01:06:51,880 --> 01:06:56,440 the in the ring for $20 million and just let Jake Paul kick the 1170 01:06:56,440 --> 01:06:59,120 crap out of us? As long as you live, you got 20 1171 01:06:59,120 --> 01:07:02,080 million bucks. So, Jim, maybe this is our our 1172 01:07:02,080 --> 01:07:04,760 future endeavour. We did, you know, Fido feud at 1173 01:07:04,760 --> 01:07:07,560 authenticate. Maybe we do a identity boxing 1174 01:07:07,560 --> 01:07:10,120 circuit or some sort. If there's anybody who's 1175 01:07:10,120 --> 01:07:13,840 listening who wants to beat me up for $20 million, I'll take 1176 01:07:13,840 --> 01:07:17,080 your money, right? I will not get into a cage match 1177 01:07:17,080 --> 01:07:19,640 with David Mottie however, so this this is where I draw a 1178 01:07:19,640 --> 01:07:21,360 line. Even for 20 million. 1179 01:07:21,360 --> 01:07:23,920 That guy that this, that guy is massive so. 1180 01:07:23,920 --> 01:07:26,080 Yeah, he is. He's he's he's really. 1181 01:07:26,080 --> 01:07:30,800 Built well, but but back to to Tyson and Jake, just to to close 1182 01:07:30,800 --> 01:07:34,160 that up my what my son told me right this morning, he said, but 1183 01:07:34,160 --> 01:07:37,400 that you know that that fight was scripted right. 1184 01:07:37,400 --> 01:07:39,600 I said, what do you know about scripts? 1185 01:07:39,880 --> 01:07:41,400 I don't know very interesting either. 1186 01:07:41,800 --> 01:07:43,880 Yeah. I mean, everyone has the plan to 1187 01:07:43,880 --> 01:07:45,600 get punched in the face, I think Tyson. 1188 01:07:45,600 --> 01:07:48,240 Said that once. Tyson Yeah. 1189 01:07:49,520 --> 01:07:50,880 Yeah, it was an exhibition match. 1190 01:07:51,040 --> 01:07:53,680 It was interesting to watch. You know, it was a spectacle if 1191 01:07:53,680 --> 01:07:55,520 you could watch it. I know Netflix had trouble 1192 01:07:55,520 --> 01:07:58,040 streaming and I didn't watch it. I didn't really care so much. 1193 01:07:58,040 --> 01:08:02,480 But hey, just to be in the ring for 58 years old and to go the 1194 01:08:02,480 --> 01:08:05,560 distance and, you know, be up there, like I said, you know, 1195 01:08:05,640 --> 01:08:07,520 sometimes I sleep wrong and my neck hurts. 1196 01:08:08,640 --> 01:08:13,520 You know, I'm not going to criticize any of those guys. 1197 01:08:13,560 --> 01:08:15,640 You know, hats off to them. They made their money, you know, 1198 01:08:15,640 --> 01:08:18,120 time to move on. All right, why don't we go and 1199 01:08:18,120 --> 01:08:20,279 wrap it up there for this week? Enrique, it's always a pleasure 1200 01:08:20,279 --> 01:08:22,920 having you on open door policy. Anytime you got something you 1201 01:08:22,920 --> 01:08:25,479 want to come on and and talk about, you know, the door is 1202 01:08:25,479 --> 01:08:28,319 open, come on in and you know, we can get to it. 1203 01:08:28,319 --> 01:08:30,520 We're going to go ahead and leave it there for this week. 1204 01:08:30,800 --> 01:08:31,920 Enrique. I'll put a link in our show 1205 01:08:31,920 --> 01:08:34,359 notes to your LinkedIn profile. So people want to reach out, 1206 01:08:34,439 --> 01:08:36,720 connect, you know, they'll be able to do that. 1207 01:08:36,720 --> 01:08:38,560 Also have a link to Savient so people can check that out. 1208 01:08:38,560 --> 01:08:40,600 If you haven't heard of Savient, not sure who you might be if 1209 01:08:40,600 --> 01:08:42,439 you're listening to this podcast, but go check them out 1210 01:08:42,439 --> 01:08:45,000 as well. And yeah, we'll have links for 1211 01:08:45,000 --> 01:08:47,960 Jim and I as well to connect. Helps us, you know, if we get 1212 01:08:47,960 --> 01:08:49,640 feedback, say what works, what's not working. 1213 01:08:49,640 --> 01:08:50,520 So we're always looking for stuff. 1214 01:08:50,520 --> 01:08:53,000 If you have ideas for shows, drop us a note there. 1215 01:08:53,000 --> 01:08:54,800 You know, that's always good. And then of course, you know, 1216 01:08:54,800 --> 01:08:57,600 we're still on the YouTube. idacpodcast.tv takes you 1217 01:08:57,600 --> 01:09:00,439 straight to our episodes there. Do us a favor, like and 1218 01:09:00,439 --> 01:09:01,680 subscribe. That helps out the show. 1219 01:09:02,120 --> 01:09:05,359 And yeah, we'll leave it there. So thanks everyone for watching 1220 01:09:05,359 --> 01:09:07,760 and or listening and we'll talk with you all in the next one. 1221 01:09:10,359 --> 01:09:13,279 You've been listening to Identity at the Center. 1222 01:09:13,640 --> 01:09:17,720 We hope you've enjoyed the show. Make sure to like, rate and 1223 01:09:17,720 --> 01:09:21,359 review, and we'll be back soon. But in the meantime, hit the 1224 01:09:21,359 --> 01:09:24,760 website at identity@thecenter.com. 1225 01:09:25,359 --> 01:09:29,439 See you next time on Identity at the Center.