What is ISPN? It's a great question.
I was about to write and publish something on ISPN at Garner and
then I got hired and I left. But ISPN, Jim, is, is an Apple
Watch for your identity program. And, and the way I, I, I use
this analogy is to explain that is the first or perhaps the best
way of, of surfacing metrics, not to show you how good of a
job you're doing protecting your environment.
So that's the, the reason of, of ISPN to exist, right?
So are you improving your security status or are you
decreasing? Are you improving that?
Are you getting worse at that? So the same way to watch helps
you to remember, hey, you should take 10,000 steps a day.
You should take this amount of sleep every night.
So you healthier, you stronger. That's the same process with
ISPN. So the idea is ISPN is
everything you can do before an attack, right?
So are you taking the necessary steps to sustain an attack?
This is identity at the center if it has anything to do with
IAM. This is the go to podcast now
your hosts Jim McDonald and Jeff Steadman.
Welcome to the Identity Center Podcast.
I'm Jeff, and that's Jim. Hey, Jim.
Hey, Jeff, how are you? Not so bad yourself.
Man, I am happy you're back. Man, I am so happy you're back.
And today is that the Today when this episode drops December 9th,
Monday, first day of the Gardner, I am Summit.
So for those who are in Grapevine, TX and are, you know,
listening to the episode, you and I will be on stage on
Wednesday at 3:30 with Becky Archambault.
Really excited for that. She's going to be turning the
tables on us and interviewing us.
So that's going to be quite different.
And for those who aren't able to attend the conference but are
still listening to this episode, you know, we're going to record
a couple episodes while we're there, while we're here
hopefully, and we'll have that for you guys to listen to.
Yeah, it's going to be a fun week.
It's I feel like it's been a while since you are recorded
like in our normal sort of studio environment.
I've been traveling and had, you know, my real job has gotten in
the way of the podcast, so to speak.
So I'm, I'm glad I'd be back in a normal studio, neither not
recording like on site somewhere because you know, I've been
traveling over the place for conferences like authenticate,
etcetera. And yeah, so I'm back, baby.
Well, a lot of people think this is our full time jobs.
I mean, people ask me that all the time.
It feels like it. It does.
It feels like a second job, right?
You hear about people working 70 hours a week and it's like, oh,
that must be horrible. But then I think about the hours
that we put into the podcast and we're probably I don't think
we're a 70, at least I'm not. But and the other thing is like,
it's, it's funny, sometimes my family members members will be
like, oh, you know, you're such a hard worker.
I think, you know, yeah, I like, I'm very dedicated to my job.
I do a good job at it, but it's not like I work in a coal mine.
You're a hard worker. Not a good worker Jim, but a
hard worker. Oh, I wasn't going to say that,
Jeff, thank you very much. Yeah.
No, look, we do this because it's a lot of fun, and we'll
keep doing it until it's not, until it's not fun, and then
we'll figure something else to do.
So there you go. So we don't have any discount
codes to share with people today because this is probably, well,
this is the last conference of 2024.
As you know, Q1 is not a big conference time, but next year
we're going to be going to EIC Ideniverse.
We'll be coming out with discount codes for those early
in 2025. Yeah, stay tuned.
I'll put them on our our homepage at idacpodcast.com.
Just Scroll down a little bit and you'll see whatever the
current discounts are. And yeah, feel free to use
those. There is one for Gartner.
If you are in the lobby of the hotel in Grapevine, you can't
get in IDAC 375. So there you go, last minute
discount code. But yeah, why don't we get into
today's episode because I feel like we have so much to cover.
And this is a guest that took us a while to get on.
We had him on earlier this year. And now we're back.
We're going to talk about ISP M, We're going to talk about AI.
Of course, I am. And maybe get into some 2025
predictions on identity. So I want to welcome back
Henrique Teixeira. He is the Senior Vice President
of Sabians. And just the guy.
Welcome back, Enrique. I'm just a guy, just a guy.
Thank you, Jeff. Thank you, Jim.
It's always a pleasure to be back here.
The show, guys. Well, it feels like a lifetime
since last time we spoke, but thank you.
Thank you for having me. Well, anytime the door is always
open and I, I appreciate the mood lighting you've got going
on. It's a very dramatic effect.
You know, we're on video. So if you're, if you're not
watching a video, you can hover YouTube and kind of check that
out. But you were with us back in
episode 281. That was back in May.
So here we are about, you know, 6, maybe seven months later and
just curious, you know, what you've been up to since then.
And then I'm curious also, you shifted over from a role at
Gartner, obviously as an analyst and now you're with Savion.
Does anything surprise you with that that role change?
Oh, yes, and lots of travel, right, since I, I, I moved here,
my son jokes say that why are you travelling so much?
And we, we've launched this series of, of events throughout
the globe, all these amazing destinations.
And so wow, I, I got to support this company I work for now,
right? And I, I'm very grateful that we
have this opportunity. And I'm of course, I used
simpler words. He's 11, Lucas, my son, right.
And so, yeah, dad, I think you should go back to, to Gardner
and no, but it's being amazing. Just the opportunity to be
closer to the problem. That's that's exactly what I was
chasing right when I moved and and I know we are now close to
Garner the IM summit getting ready for that as well.
It it feels bittersweet. Of course, I I'll be meeting all
my my good friends at Gardner. It feels like the the whole show
right, which I used to be the chair of.
It's now an adult that has left the house, went away to college
and and took his own speed, its own pace.
And so I'm I'm super curious to see what Garner will be
delivering excited. I'm I'm I'm very happy to be
there and there's new capacity. Of course.
It's funny that I don't know if you noticed that the theme they
chose for the show, right. So for the Garner AM Summit 2024
is identity amplified and I can claim I was the person in the
room when, when we're choosing the the theme for that.
OK, let's choose identity amplified because I can see I
have amplifiers here, right? And, and, and, and guitars.
So this is part of my life and perhaps a little bit of Terravia
when I suggested that and there was a bunch of other
suggestions, amazing options. Every year we go through an
ideation process at Gartner to choose the, the, the theme of
the, the, the conference for the year.
And, and then I left right. And I, I don't know what
happened, but in my own branding, on my own LinkedIn
profile, I used the Enrique Teixeira identity amplified and
I, I kept using that. And then I got a phone call from
Gartner and they say, Enrique, guess what?
We, we chose identity amplified as the theme for this conference
in 2024. So good.
I feel flattered, right. That was my idea.
But would you mind switching your profile to something else
and say, OK, of course, of course.
So I I didn't make any any fuss and I changed now it's.
Where a good trademark comes in. All right, yeah, but it's it's
OK. It was not a big deal.
So now it's Enrique Teixeira identity driven because I have
an OverDrive here and everything else.
So identity driven, I think it's what I am as well.
And what we've been doing, it's saving, right.
So driving the importance of identity and and, and fixing
this problem. So, but to your question, yeah,
lots of surprises aside from the travel, which I I already
expected with, with, with them saving.
And I was surprised for the size of some departments inside of
Savient and how organized it is. And I had no idea, right.
And and I used to joke that Savient was this best kept
secret in the industry. So why, why, why don't you guys
speak more about this or that, this particular innovation that
you're launching? And because it was very much
driven by technical people and engineers.
But now we have a CMO, we have an amazing team, also marketing
and messaging what it does. So I was kind of surprised about
the thing in a good way about those things that, wow, even
myself as an analyst and I was paid to analyze you guys and
understand what you, what these vendors were doing.
I thought there was a lot that was kind of mysterious and I I
just learned after I joined the job.
So now this is like your first Gartner as a civilian and it's
freeing, right? You kind of mentioned of you're
not really in charge of it. So now you can kind of go as a,
as a normal attendee, right? Just a guy.
Yes. What is something that you look
forward to other than, you know, obviously relationships and
meeting people and you know, and stuff like that, But is there
like something specific that jumps out you, you know, this
week as we're all here, it is like, I'm looking forward to
this. I mean, obviously of course
then, you know, giving us fist bumps and stuff like.
That, yeah. And I had a little bit of a
taste of that when I was at SRM securing Risk Summit and
National Harbour. So I was able to reconnect and,
and, and, and feel that vibe again.
But little things that I used to care about when I was preparing
those conferences. Like for example, the tidbit you
just shared that now Rebecca will be interviewing you guys.
So I'm curious to say, OK, this is an interesting and fresh
approach to this or who are the other guest speakers that they
have picked, right? Because that was part of, of a
chair and choosing who are the, the guest speakers?
Who are the, the keynote speakers?
So I, I'm more curious about this, the, the background
choices they made. And I, I know it's a, it's a lot
of work and I'm, I'm curious to see how it pans out, but I'm
very excited for them as well. So I'm, I'm on the sidelines
cheering for them. I'm, I'm sure it's going to be
great, but also meeting my friends and, and, and our
clients as well and, and being there within the booth saving
it. We won't have Vans this year as
we had for for other events we had like a Vance store and Vance
shoes, but we have a nice surprise in store as well with
that. I've got my vans in my closet.
So that was a that's that's that's a memorable swag for
sure. And we've told Becky for our
session, like, hey, you know, you guys are really gracious and
we interviewed you guys on stage.
You're like, hey, we'll ask, can we ask anything?
And we've told Becky same thing like Turner vows, Fairplay.
So Becky, come at us, bro. We're happy to engage and where
that may be. You've got other copies you've
been to. I know you were at Hipcomp,
which I've never been to. Maybe you can give me kind of an
update of what was Hipcom full hyphen?
Is that something like that I should be looking at for next
year? Yes, that, that was my first
time as well. An amazing roster of speakers
and, and I think that's what drove me there, right.
So Alex Weinert and and Pamela Zingle and and a bunch of other
amazing people, right. And it reminds me of and, and I,
I've never been to Identiverse on its early days, but it
reminds me of that the early days of Identiverse, a very
practitioner oriented type of conference.
Pretty cool. I like the, the venue as well
was New Orleans by the, the actual space where they had the,
the whole Mardi Gras like Carnival type of thing.
So it was pretty cool. And, but like I said, they're
practitioner oriented, right, versus only Sisos and and
leaders who had like all kinds of people from different levels,
but also different type of content as well, which was
pretty interesting. Pretty, pretty cool.
I, I, I'd love to to go back. Yeah, I, I get excited for the
same thing, like find out who the different guest speakers are
going to be because I'm responsible for booking, booking
our guest, booking our talent that comes in.
I use those lists oftentimes for finding future guests who have
an interesting and unique perspective.
So, you know, it's part of the whole identity at the center
brand is bringing in great speakers like yourself.
I I know I don't have to sell folks that are listening on the
show because they're already listening, but I've gotten so
much feedback, you know, so many times where we're doing the
episodes where people say identity is at the center and I
feel like we just accidentally struggle or I shouldn't say
accidentally because we talked about identity as the center as
a concept, but we never thought once about changing the name of
the podcast. I think we just we kind of
nailed it with this concept. And trademarks are expensive,
Jim, so. Yeah.
Well, that's right. IDAC is something we trademarked
and that's a perfect segue because I was going to say we
want to talk to you about the latest and greatest acronym ISPN
Identity Security Posture Management.
It's something that you've been talking about and wanted to give
you an opportunity to kind of talk about.
First off, what is ISPN? No, awesome.
And it's a great question. I was about to write and publish
something on ISPN at Garner and then I got hired and I left.
But ISBM, Jim, is, is an Apple Watch for your identity program.
And, and the way I, I, I use this analogy is to explain that
is the first or perhaps the best way of, of surfacing metrics to
show you how good of a job you're doing protecting your
environment. So that's the reason of ISPN to
exist, right? So are you improving your
security status or are you decreasing?
Are you improving that? Are you getting worse at that?
So the same way to watch helps you to remember, hey, you should
take 10,000 steps a day. You should take this amount of
sleep every night. So you healthier, you stronger.
That's the same process with ISPN.
So the idea is ISPN is everything you can do before an
attack, right? So are you taking the necessary
steps to sustain an attack? Are you strong enough?
Right. And so?
The management part is kind of like understanding where you are
now and then improving it through me through evolution of
like fixing things. But I'm also wondering, is this
now a product space? So are there going to be ISPM
vendors that maybe dashboard all this stuff out?
What are your thoughts there? Yeah, and and exactly so that
the first step of it, it is about visibility, right?
Just surfacing that type of metric that say, hey, you're not
doing a good job here in in identity hygiene, right.
So you're not even enabling fishing resistant MFA to
everybody in your organization, like half of your employees
don't even have MFA. So this type of visibility is
super important. But yeah, as the remediation of
that is part of ISPN. So that's the M right, the
management part. So you, you remediate, you fix
this type of stuff getting stronger as you go and you
improve your security posture, right?
I think it's a great question to ask.
Is this a, a valid market? Is it I, I don't care and I
don't think buyers care about if it's a market or not.
The thing is, is it real? Is it not?
I think it's a, it's a type of discussion that as a gardener, I
remember having those type of discussions, especially because
when you have things like a market guide or a magic
quadrant, by definition, it has to exist as a market and and
Garner has very strict rules. What a market is now in in
reality, if I want to buy a a smartwatch or an electric car,
is it is to a car? Is it something else when like
a, a faster horse becomes a car? I, I think buyers, they will buy
what they need to solve a problem they have right now.
And so that's why I, I, I said not, not in any trying to be
facetious or anything, but it's, it's, I think it's just, it
might be a market. I, I, I know of companies that
they, they leave and die and that's the only product they
have. It's their, their, their MVP is
an ISPN product and that's what they're doing.
So the way I, I wrote research, it's more on the I, I, I make
the analogy almost like a sitcom, right?
I, I, I, I, I evaluate the situation.
I take a picture of what's happening right now and I write
about what's happening right now and what's happening right now.
Yes, there are companies that are building tools that they do
exactly that is to surface those type of metrics.
Savant is doing that. We we have announced our entry
into ISPM and I think it is different, right.
So, so no, it is something different than IGA, it is
something different than Pam. It, it is something else.
So we we could argue what the name should be, but I think it
is it is a category of different things for sure.
Is it different than ITDR? It is.
How's it different than ITDR?
I I feel like the definition of ITDR is providing to secure your
identity systems. But then when companies go to
market with a solution A, solution A from company A and
solution B from Company B could be quite different and they
still fit into this ITDR bucket. And you know, whereas like IGA
is pretty much means closely the same thing to everybody.
Now, I, I would love it, feel free to disagree with me on any
of that, but I'm wondering, OK, what, you know, how does ISPN
become about or what is the bucket of ISPN?
And is it, you know, is there a clear definition over it or is
this something that you're still spitballing or the industry
hasn't like, you know, come to consensus on it, which is fine.
No, for me, Jim, it's very clear in my mind, right?
So, and the way I, I, I, I wrote this research on ITDR is that
this happens during an attack and after an attack, right?
So it's a, it's a runtime threat detections.
So you already have somebody shaking the gates, like forcing
the door open that they're trying to get in.
That's when ITDR gets in. So it's threat detection, it's
identity threat detection at the moment of the attack and
responding to that attack. ISPN, it's all about the
prevention. So if you go to NIST and other
type of frameworks, so those are the things that happens before
the boom, right before the attack, everything that you can
do to prepare for an attack. So take Mike Tyson for example,
and Jake Paul, right? So all the preparation they did
for the fight. So are you sleeping well?
What's your nutrition regim? Are you training hard?
Are you taking all the precautions so you don't die on
that ring? Right, So that's ISPM.
And yes, you're correct in the sense that IGA fits in that
prevention space as well. As a matter of fact, everything
that we did so far in Identity is preventive, right?
That's why the ITVR gap was so big, because MFA is preventing
bad guys from getting in. Pam is vaulting credentials and
not allowing it to be misused. So it's all about preventing an
attack. So ITDR happens when somebody is
already trying to break in, so it kicks in in the detection
mode and responding to that. And that's what ITDR is about.
ISPN is the prequel to that, right?
So everything that you do before the fight.
I feel like this is not to disagree, this is probably more
to agree, but just the thought is that I mean, I've seen
Gartner has like the Venn diagram on this and I think the
third, so it's ISPMITDR and I think the third is IGA.
I'm going by memory. This is something I saw a long
time back. But some of the stuff you're
talking about prevention is in some of the ITDR platforms, like
for example, Sempress, they, they do some analysis of here's
the configurations within your Active Directory that are
potential cracks in the in the foundation.
So I feel like still companies are kind of built bundling all
these things into their solution.
They're not being purist, which I'm not advocating that they be
purist, but I think it does make it hard to wrap your brain
around, OK, ITDR, it doesn't necessarily mean one thing, even
though you're giving a very clear definition.
I just kind of feel like we're still in this churning period,
which leads to a lot of clients, in my experience saying, OK,
well, is this really the right time to jump?
In yeah, and, and, and I, I think it's a great analysis what
you just made, right, Because when we are writing research
and, and the market takes that idea and runs with it, it may be
hey, this is not the whole thing.
And, and, and yes, a lot of vendors that were doing ISPN
because I didn't have the chance to publish things about ISPN
before. So now this is, this is ITTR.
What we're doing is ITTR and I can remember 3 or 4 vendors that
did that and say, guys, this is not ITTR stop.
But then the word was out. The cat was out of the bag,
right? So no, but we like ITTR.
We're going to be using this label.
So but this it's, it's wrong. That's right.
I'm going to be right about ISBN next, which is the prevention.
Then what you're doing is about prevention.
It's finding the cracks and fixing the cracks.
You're not being attacked. So we're not detecting threats,
right? So to your point, it is kind of
very enlightening to see that the power of writing research
and and what the vendors do with that, but also the buyers,
right? And and yes, the buyers get
confused because, OK, this, this is like the DRI thought, this is
more preventive. But when we talk about those
things at Sabian and say, guys, no, this is like the Dr. this is
ISPN. So that's part of the job of
being a strategist is to be clear about those things.
But I, I don't fault those other vendors.
They, they say, OK, no, this, this is a cool concept and, and
we can run with this and, and this is good for positioning and
messaging, say, well, more power to you.
But it, it can get confusing. That's I think is a
characteristic of our game, if you will, or our trade.
Yeah. I mean, that's exactly, I feel
like we're, we're getting into almost a little bit of
semantics, right. We're throwing out, we're really
good at creating acronyms. It's funny.
And Enrique, I was going to, I was going to interject when Jim
asked you, what's the difference between basically ITDR and ISP
M? And I was thinking about it very
similarly. ISP M is all the stuff that
happens before I get attacked. It's, it's your plan, right?
It's your hygiene of your identity program, your systems,
your capabilities, your data, right?
All that stuff, and I don't think there's ever a bad time to
do that. You don't need a tool
necessarily to. Do exactly that's that's a
day-to-day training. It's an idea.
It's hey, should we have MFA? Yeah, well, guess what?
You just improved your posture management for an attack because
now you've got a second level of authentication, right?
And I think there are things like that where we can look at
it and say, hey, here is here is what is my i.e.
SPM look like. And yes, maybe there are
productized versions of that that have a very, you know,
structured approach to it. And it's a checklist.
And maybe it bleeds over into a technology where it's like, OK,
here's your checklist. And oh, by the way, if you click
this button, it will do this thing for you and keep it In
Sync maybe with whatever you define as your i.e.
SPM, because not every organization is going to have
the same level of risk tolerance or capabilities or things like
that. So I feel like ISPN is more like
a framework and idea set to say, hey, here's how we're going to
manage our threat level and our posture to protect against
identity. Secondary to that is exactly
what you said is OK, something bad has happened.
It got through our posture management approaches.
Now what do we do? And that's the detection
response. And of course, there's plenty of
technology now in that area, you know, to help with that.
But that's kind of how I was thinking about it in my head.
And that's exactly, and you said perhaps even better than I
could, But yeah, that's, that's, it's about training and, and
things, and things that you got to do regardless, right?
You got to eat and got to sleep. You got to train and, and, and
the more you do of that and, and eat healthy, you're going to be
better prepared for a gang day. Gang day is you are attacked
right now, right? So all the drills, all the
training that you do, that's a posture management.
So you you're becoming stronger in that sense of protecting your
identity infrastructure and your identity systems.
So I did find that that Venn diagram and it was a Gartner
diagram published in 2024 and the two overlapping circles
there were not 3. So I don't know if it's
technically a Venn diagram, but it's overlapping circles.
We got to get Yvonne. She's our expert on Venn
diagrams. So Eve, if you're listening.
Yeah, exactly. We have to.
We have to have Eve's input on that.
We could put a link in the show notes, but it was prevention and
ITDR and the overlap. And you can see pretty much to
my point, there are companies that are trying to play in both
spaces. Now, whether or not they call it
one product or not, I. Don't there is an overlap that
that's a that's a good point. When I was writing about this
with Mary Ruddy, which is now chief of research and Gardner,
right. And, and, and between the
prevention things and then posture management and and
detection response, you could detect a change in posture,
right. So I, I don't know if you guys
saw on the iPhone now they have this vitals thing now metrics
that say, hey, your vitals changed.
So there was not an attack, you're not having a heart
attack, but your vitals change like you had a change in
posture. So a little bit of detection
changes of posture. But then, but I, I, I, I think
for the benefit of the industry, right?
So this semantics discussion, I think it's important, but we
shouldn't be just focusing on that.
But I think, and Rebecca talks about that too, focus on the
outcomes, right? I think it's super important.
So the outcome of ISPM is to be stronger for the attack.
That's right. And the outcome of ITTR is to
detect things faster and respond faster to those things.
I think that's simple as that. I think this is a great segue to
because I feel like this is where AI is really starting to
shine. What we called maybe machine
learning before and AI and all that's coming together now we've
got things like Co pilots and agents and bots and you know,
all kinds of stuff going on where, you know, where do you
stand on this from like an AI perspective?
And especially I think this terminology of copilot agent
bot, is there really a difference or is it really
again, we're back into semantics of it's still this, you know,
non human identity performing an action on something.
Yeah. And, and I'll get to that when,
when we talk about difference between AAI agents and, and, and
AI Co pilots, but when we think about AI, right?
And before AI, it was cloud. And, and, and one of the things
I've been talking a lot in those different Rd. shows that we're
delivering is that if we look at the trends that driving change
in 2024-2025, man, cloud has been around for more than 20
years. Cloud was invented around the
year 2000, right? So almost like 24 and and which
is crazy to think about how long it took here to so we get to the
cloud security of Wiz and and Palo Alto, the CSPMS of the
world. The reason I bring this up is
that now we have this other inflection point or a second
wave happening, which is AI, which happened two years ago,
right? And and, and, and, and
generative AI becoming mainstream and, and even like
people like my mom, she's in healthcare and, and she's what
have you used this Chachi PT thing?
Yeah, it's amazing, right. So it's now it's in the hands of
the people. So this new inflection point, I
think gives you the, the perspective what is driving
innovation in companies today, the same way that cloud drove
innovation for the last 20 years.
It's undeniable cloud drove that type of innovation.
So you, you pay money to AWS, you pay money to Azure and you
run your workloads in the cloud. It's, it's better than in so
many ways, right? And more elastic and resilient,
etcetera. AI is driving this, this other
wave. And when we think of of, I think
was during the Salesforce event and, and Marc Benioff was
bashing Microsoft because no Co pilots are dead.
The, the cool thing now is AI agents.
That's that's that's why AI has to exist.
And now man, it's again, it's a, it's a semantic type of
discussion that I think it's not very productive.
But those are different things. And, and, and there's not better
or worse thing, but a copilot is an assistant, right?
That that's by definition, a copilot is an assistant that
helps you generate code. It helps you to to generate
photos or or code or generate text.
So this an assistant. It could be also a chat bought
in a sense right translating natural language in a sequel
type of statement like a Claude and other models that can do
that very well. An agent is going to be
performing actions, so it could be a workflow or executing a
remediation or a lawyer type of agent or a marketing type of
agent. So this becomes more of an agent
in that way that execute tasks versus an agent that creates
content. So I think it's just a category
of of two types of of things that is not one better than the
other. There are applicability that you
got to have an assistant will be the best application.
An agent will be a better application for other things.
So that that's that's my interpretation of that.
What's interesting, however, in that push to innovation, right?
So there's a lot of opportunity for us to still profit from that
cloud innovation curve. So how many start-ups can launch
their own products in in the cloud?
And that's still happening, right?
AI is going to be the same thing.
However, my prediction is that that curve is not going to take
20 years to maturity. Cloud today is mature, right?
Especially infrastructure as a service, even SAS, it's mature
AI. We're going to see that curve
going much faster. There's an an author called,
what's his name, Ray Ray Kurzweil.
I think that's his name, Ray Kurzweil.
And he's a, a futurist Ray Kurzweil.
He predicted that AI or technology singularity would
happen in 2040, five, 2045. But now this, this person
revised his prediction. No, no, it's not 2045 anymore.
It's going to be 2029. So and I, I was bang on and I,
I, I, I, I made my prediction before I saw his and I was just
looking for evidence. OK, who always agrees with this
crazy stuff I'm talking about here.
But I think the wave for maturity in AI is going to
happen in the next 5 years. So Henrique, I think the whole
idea with agents or bots or Co pilots, I think it's going to
sharpen my point on this holy war and the holy war.
Jeff and I use this term, right, and we prime example of the holy
war is where should contractors be managed in the HR system or
something else? And you know, it's like each
time you go into a client, you talk to them about how they're
going to manage things going forward or where they are today,
it becomes a holy war. HR doesn't want to manage these
people or yadda, yadda. I don't want to talk about that.
What I want to talk about is a different holy war, which is
what should be the front end to your I, your access request
process. So many companies say we want it
to be our ITSM, our ticketing system.
We want to take ServiceNow where you go and request everything
else in the organization. That's where you go to get a
parking pass or a new iPhone or etcetera, etcetera.
Why can't you go there and ask for access to a folder?
Personally, I think it's a terrible idea.
And I'll tell you, I think that the AI future is going to put an
exclamation point on why I think this, which what I've always
felt was the change management for this is a nightmare.
But I think the bigger issue is going to be you're not going to
get to take advantage of all these things that are going to
be built into the front end with an IGA system.
So now I go into an IGA system and it tells me, well, you know,
you should request this access or you shouldn't request that
access, etcetera. Or even better, we get into a
generative interface where I say I need to give Henrique.
I just hired Henrique. I need to give him access to the
accounting system similar to what Mark has.
And then it starts asking me questions and we going back and
forth to have a question, a conversation until we get to the
point where it's a well formed for quest that I submit.
If you're using some intermediary front end, I just
don't see how you ever get to the point of being able to do
that. Yeah, but isn't this just the
March of progress and technology?
We, there really wasn't an option to request access in this
scenario until let's say 10 years ago.
It was you had to call the help desk, right?
Or walk down to a desk or something like that, right?
Somebody could do it. And then it became, oh, why
don't we try to Amazon this and make it more of an e-commerce
style. Let's create a shopping cart.
And then you have things like service now, right where you
have or other ticketing systems, right, where you have like all
your services listed and you can make a request.
Now we're in the age of AI and we're seeing identity governance
vendors pull in some of that, right?
They've, most IGA players have had a request interface of some
sort, right? Whether it's Savient or Sale
Point or Armada or Fisher or whatever it may be, right?
They all have that. Now we're looking to this AI
future is what if your IGA didn't have a web interface and
it was a chat interface of some sort, natural language
processing, right? Things like that.
The whole goal of those interfaces are to do what?
To request the access, to make sure that it's appropriate and
to log the proper approvals and receipt trail, right, so you can
audit it, those sorts of things. Yeah, if you have to make like a
yeah, a wedging bat here. Yeah, I, I think Jim, and I'm
sorry, I agree with Jeff here. I think I, I, I agree that the
future of IGA and then all the things around life cycle, it
should live in a, in a more natural language, chat oriented.
So I'm a big proponent of chat OPS.
If you guys are familiar with what chat OPS is, but for the
sake of the audience here. So chat OPS is the ability of
using Slack or Jira or service analysis, whatever.
So we already have those apps in your phone that you can check
messages and respond to those messages.
So interacting with your IJ tool through Slack and, and, and it's
funny that we are also announcing that within saving
it. So there's a company called
Pronoassis and they developed a chat bot, a chat bot for Slack
that front faces saving it. And I think that's brilliant.
I don't want to build an iOS app.
I don't want to build a, a, an Android app because you already
have an app, you already have teams, you have teams, you have
Slack. So I think that's the future of
the human interfaces for today. It may change into the future to
be even more natural language, but I think I only see the
benefits of doing it that way, right.
So people, they are already used to use Servsina or is it teams
or, or, or slack. So why not embrace it?
And of course, we, we still have all the controls for segregation
of duties or separation of duties for fine grain
entitlement and, and, and all, the, all the things that we need
to do from a security standpoint.
And yeah, as IJ can continue to do that.
But from a front end, I think the future is on chat OPS.
It doesn't replace things that we that exist today either,
right I think. We're in this transitional
state, right? It's that's.
Exactly. Another arrow in the quiver.
It's like, OK, yes, you can interface with my web interface,
or you can my chat bot, or send me an iMessage or RCS message or
whatever it is you're using, right?
Those sorts of things. That's kind of how I always
think about it too. Yeah, exactly.
So my point is, OK, where I'm confused is, is what you're
saying that if I'm a client now, a customer of yours now and I'm
implementing my IGA system for the first time or maybe I had
one that was like 20 years old, something like that, and now I'm
going to buy your software, I'm going to implement it.
Would you tell me? And I tell you, I want to use
ServiceNow because ServiceNow is where people go to request
everything, parking pass, etcetera.
I don't want to give them a new place to go.
Are you, are you going to discourage that because.
If you say let's go, let's do it, let's do it, let's use
Servsenal, let's use Servsenal. And we have a native integration
with Savant, right? I think modern IJ providers,
even before I joined Savant, I was recommending vendors say
this is the future. We, we, we should not fight this
holy war anymore, right? So you have this front end, you
have trained thousands of employees to use service now, So
why are you trying to train them in something else?
So they are training using that interface.
Don't fight against that tide, right?
And we connect in the back end. So we have service catalog
integrations, right? So the same way you can request
your laptop to be fixed, you could request this new package.
Now there's the whole AI thing. And I agree with you, Jim, in
that one that we can use RBAC up to a point, right?
So you package everything, you make that package requestable
within ServiceNow. You get to the point where
things get so granular. And I think we're not there yet,
but we get to the point where you're going to open a SaaS
application on your phone or in a browser and say it looks like
you're trying to access this app and you don't have access.
Would you like to open request right now, Right.
And, and and then things happen even before you know it's
already a flow going on, right. I think that's where we're going
to go. So you're saying it's kind of a
multi channel way to go ahead? And very much.
Omni channel identity and access management request.
That's the future guys, absolutely yeah and I and I I
can't force everybody going through my own interface all the
time. That's not kids these days,
right? So they they are they're multi
channel. They they're they're using
Roblox to chat. Come on.
So we we got to keep up with the times.
You know, Jimmy bring up an interesting point, because they
think this is a a struggle that a lot of organizations faces.
Yeah, we are deploying an IGA. And I think by default, I think
a lot of folks are like, yeah, let's put it, make it part of
our, our ITSM system, which Henrique, to your point, right,
we've, we've trained our users already how to do that.
But I think it's an interesting approach to say, hey, you know,
why don't we do a little bit of both?
Yes, let's do the ITSM integration, but why don't we
also consider some sort of chat bot type approach, right?
Or a conversational approach of how do I do this?
Maybe it's a little thing that it's in the corner and it's
like, hey, it's not replacing anything.
But hey, do you want to try the future, right?
Or do you want to test it, right?
Or, you know, do things like that.
I think there's an opportunity here where, you know, products
in this space could layer on some sort of conversational, you
know, approach to requesting access.
Because the, the biggest concern that a lot of people have when
it comes to this is I don't know what I'm requesting access for.
I don't, I don't know any. All I know is I need to get to
this file. And if there is something behind
the scenes that translate that to say, hey, Jim, I need access
to the, the logo file for the Identity Center podcast, you
know, oh, OK. You know, the the robot figures
that out for me, handles all the approvals and maybe you get a
text message and it's like, hey, Jeff wants to access this file,
is that okay? And you just say, yeah, through
a text message, right? Or something like that.
Yes. Exactly.
And then it's like, okay, you've got all the things that you
would normally do through an ecommerce type approach.
Traditional I will say is still logged and happening.
But anything that removes that friction I think is really
interesting. And I would be curious to see,
you know, what are the some of the solutions out there that can
layer on that chat bot type approach Because I don't think
ServiceNow as it exists now is going to be the way ServiceNow
does it in the next 5. Ten years there already.
Yeah, yeah, to your point, I think multi channel is is the
answer, right. It it really depends on on
culture what your users are more familiar with it it if if they
use a lot of Slack right. And having that integrated with
Slack, we had IBMIBM is using Savant internally for their own
employees. They built their own chat bot,
this AI chat bot based on Watson, whatever Watson acts
that interacts with Savant, right?
So they also built this, this, this thing because well, now we
are IBM, we're using Watson, that's it.
Good. So I think having this openness
right to to communicate through multiple channels, I think it's
the direction of the future. I'm not going to be strong
arming users. Yeah, you got to use through my
own interface. I think that's the wrong way to
do it. Enrique is not going to show up
at your desk and put you in a headlock and say submit this
form. Yeah.
Maybe he will, maybe he will. I don't know that you know
Henrique well enough to say that he won't do that.
Here's my gift to you, Henrique. You need a trademark Henrique I
and then make a chat bot. Enrique, I love.
It thank you. Thank you, Jeff.
So think about it. Henrique, let's shift topics a
little bit because I think it's fair to say, at least I'm going
to say you don't have to agree, is that you're an influencer
within this space. You a lot of people follow you
and look to your vision, your strategy for the identity space.
And I I've got to think that you're pulling inspiration from
others, right? I mean, that's how it works.
Oh, yeah. I want to know who are some of
the other influencers that you're following and what
they're talking about that excites you and kind of like
informs you to build your perspective on the world.
No thank. It's a great question, Jim.
And it's funny that sometimes I find people that say, oh, why,
why haven't I met this person yet?
Right. So one of them is and because of
my job today, I'd say I'm in charge of strategy.
So I'm thinking about strategy a lot.
I'm, I'm, I'm studying more about the discipline of
strategy. So there's this guy named Eric
Leach. He used to work at Strata
Identity and he writes a lot about strategy.
And I think if, if you, I think he has his own blog on Medium
and, and stuff like that. But there's one thing that it
really stuck with me and perhaps with the audience would be
interesting as well to understand that.
So one of the things that I do is to think about the vision of
saving long term and etcetera. And it said something even
before we, we, we stop to write and think and, and, and
communicate vision. We got to think about purpose.
That really stuck to me. So what are we trying to do with
this? What is the problem we're trying
to solve? Oh, oh, we were trying to
prevent things or we're trying to detect things.
OK, now with that purpose in your mind, you can draw a, a
vision where you want to be, right?
So OK, we're, we're protecting this or we're doing this, we're
detecting that and then vision comes.
So Eric Leach is one that I, I, I strongly recommend people to
follow. The other one that come that
comes across is one of the founders of Netflix, Mark
Randolph, and he's very active on LinkedIn as well.
And I wish I could meet him one day, but he seems a very
interesting guy. And he said this thing that
stuck with me as well, especially because strategy,
right? So a good strategy is not about
having that great idea that one idea.
It's about having a a system that allows you to test as many
ideas as you can, right? So being inclusive, not to be
constrained by my own thoughts because I, I, I joke to say I'm,
I'm just a guy. I'm one guy, right?
I'm, I'm, I'm too limited in my own capacity.
So I, I really like that concept.
OK, creating that system of just testing very quickly as many
ideas as possible and coming up, well, OK, now you have like 10
amazing ideas. I think that's really eye
opening. So we're coming up here at the
end of 2024. It's always good to look back
and say, you know, what got accomplished.
What do you think it will be remembered for?
Things like that. How do you think identity is
going to be remembered for in 2024?
Were there any specific trends or topics or or things that jump
to mind? I think 2024 was the year of
ITDR, if you will. I think it became very
mainstream. We spoke about that HIP
conference, the Hybrid Identity Protection Conference.
Man, it was a whole conference, like 2 1/2 days, just about ITDR
basically. Wow, this is crazy.
So I think if I had to choose one thing that was very, very
popular this year and identity will be remembered.
Yeah, the identity breaches, right, That happened all, all
the stuff that we did to protect our systems against those type
of breaches. I think that's what the year is
going to be remembered for. Jim, what about yourself?
What does 2024 bring for you? You know, I, I feel like the
recognition or the creation of identity security as a concept,
which has a lot to do with concepts like ITDRI.
Think if we look back on this year though, it's like a
formulation era. There's a lot of things being
put out there. ITDRISPM wallets.
Machine identities, right? Machine identity, blockchain
identity. Yeah, yeah, Non human identity
is like, well, I feel like non human identity has always been
there. It's just like the recognition
all of a sudden that, Oh my gosh, there's a problem.
Oh, you got to protect that too. That's an art scope.
So there's all these things like what's going to actually, you
know, stick around and be a part of the future and what's going
to kind of fall off the plate. To me, that's the year.
I don't know that it's 2024 specific, but it feels like
we're at that point where it's like we're up to here with ideas
and some of them, you know, nothing ever comes to a clean
death in the identity space. Think about UEBA, right?
It was like all we could talk about 3 or 4 years ago.
Nobody talks about it now. But has anybody declared it
dead? Or is it now just like?
It evolved into, you know, ITDR. Almost.
OK, yeah, yeah, I agree. It kind of evolved and like
nobody declared it dead. It, it becomes a, a capability
of something else, right? And I think that's, that's what
may happen with active Dr. as well.
It are becoming a capability of, of bigger markets like XDR or,
or SIM or whatever, you name it, right?
So you're building this tool and it has ICDR capabilities in it,
right? And that's something that I I
had predicted before as well. I think the health of the
industry is that you're seeing the leaders continue to invest
in their platforms, bring in new things and hopefully get
stronger. But also the startup community
is as vibrant and as strong as ever.
You go to conferences in the identity space, but I think in
cybersecurity overall, and there's like just so many
startups out there, and it's not like they are, you know, just
trying to add a feature on to something else.
Like some of them are incredible and they're taking on big
problems and taking them on in new ways.
And that, I think, is an indication of like how healthy
the industry is. I think for me, you guys have
both really good answers. I think it's, it's still AI like
it seems like everything, every topic this year that we talked
about had some infusion of some level of AI and how are we going
to plan for this? How are we going to integrate
it? How are we going to leverage it,
right? How are we going to protect it?
How are we going to protect against it?
I feel like AI is sort of like the this thing that's sort of
like the shark beneath the the waters.
Or maybe it's the iceberg, right?
You've got this. Little no, it's the wave, man.
It's the wave rising cloud is the now is the, the AI wave.
So absolutely everything that we spoke about, I think they're,
they're, they're surfing the wave of AI.
So I, I agree 100%. So the same way we surfed the
cloud wave and and we had the start-ups way back like autumn
eyes and cloud knocks and Airmatic for that cloud wave.
We're going to have that. That's going to happen again,
man for AI, And I think that's the the the push of innovation
identity itself, it's protecting that and that's the constant,
right? The constant of all the waves
sees the mainframe through the decentralized compute to cloud
to AI identity as a constant, right, Like Jem said, but even
machine identities, it's been there forever.
It's just now we have this different type of pushes or
waves, like I said this, this shark now in, in the water.
I, I still think 2024 being that year of threat became like
mainstream. But at the same and, and, and I
spoke exactly about that, Jeff. Two things that happened in
2022-2023 with real exploit 2024 was AI and identity threats.
Those two things that can happen at the same time.
So what about 2025? Any predictions for next year?
Are we still going to be talking about AI the same level we are
now? What do you think, Enrique?
Yeah, I think we're going to still surfing that wave, right,
at least for the next until 2025, until 2029 when we hit
singularity and AI becomes more powerful than us.
And in humans, I think that the big prediction for next year is
going to be identity or machine identity security, which is
something that we briefly spoke about here in this episode
today, is that it's being there forever.
But now people, OK, I think we've done a decent job with
workforce. We didn't, we've done a decent
job with CIM and externals. Oh, what are those machine
doing? And it will become like
undeniable. We can't ignore this problem
anymore. So I think for next year, I do
predict that organizations that invest more time and money into
finding basic things like visibility and hygiene of
machines, they will improve their resilience in cyber like
considerably. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm estimating
from 30 to 50% efficacy of, of protection or being stronger and
more resilient. I like that prediction because I
feel that spot on, you know, and again, it tails back into this
AI, there's going to be this explosion of non humans doing
things in our environments. We have to manage those things.
So I feel like this whole, whatever you want to call it,
machine identity, non human identity, I think, I think we
need to settle on what that definition might be as an
industry. But that whole idea of like, OK,
there's going to be little bots running around and there might
be, they might be so ephemeral. They only exist for a
millisecond because their whole task is to do one thing and it's
gone. And being able to track all
that, it's going to be really interesting and I think really
compute intensive to try and track all that type of stuff.
Jim, what about you? What do you want to predict for
2025? I got something but I want I
first wanted to say. So we did a podcast with David
Motti recently and we talked about non human identities.
And one thing he argued for is that we shouldn't define
something as what it's not. So saying that is a non human is
defining by something by what it's not.
And anyway, so that's a little side note.
Yeah, but let's talk about that real quick.
Two minutes if I may. That's a that's a good point.
And see, that's why I like David, he says Mark Guy defining
things by whether or not is like a like a Turing machine.
It's called a Turing Turing machine.
It's like a Turing non human, right?
But non human is not wrong in the sense that we have humans
and we have non humans. In that category of non humans
are cats, they're dogs, right? They're animals or bacteria.
There's ghosts and there is machines, right?
So I see machine as a subset of non human machines.
Machine. You could break that down into
workloads and devices. So I think non human is not
completely wrong. It's just that it's a, it's a
much bigger scope of things that we're not talking about.
I'm not talking about cats and dogs, I'm talking about
machines. So it's a non human but it's a
machine and then with the machine it's either workload or
a device. It helps group this concept
which I don't think is well managed as people.
And when you look at enterprise people, there's kind of a way to
manage them. They start an HR system, they go
into your IGA system, they get provisioned access, etcetera.
Machines like what's the authoritative source for machine
accounts that there's really not?
And the kind of identity or machine or account that Jeff
mentioned that is created for in an ephemeral nature is a lot
different than the Active Directory Service account that
is used by the SQL Server that was set up 12 years ago.
Yeah, yeah. So the way we're defining that
Savient, it's it's and this is important, right.
So the the the hierarchy or the taxonomy of that.
So we we categorize it as a machine identity, a machine
account and a machine credential, three different
levels. And we can talk about that
perhaps some other day, but there's a, yeah, some lack of
clarity of what are we talking about here.
And to your point, yes, there's no alternative source for
identities that are machine based most of the time.
All right, here's my bonus 2020. 5I I got to answer this 2025
because I did. I'm sorry I took this off track
there, but so you know me, Jeff. Doom and gloom.
So here's my doom and gloom prediction for 2025 S Nobody.
Great, everything's going to work.
New Year's Eve, you should be celebrating the year behind, not
the year forward. The So here's my concern is as
humans, we react to things that happen.
You know, people fly planes into a building.
We start screening people better.
We don't think, oh, somebody could fly a plane into a
building, so we better start screening people better to
prevent that. So it's very unfortunate.
That is human nature. And I kind of feel like identity
security is in the same place where people actually have to be
breach or breaches have to be on the front page of the Wall
Street Journal. More and more so that you can't
escape the issue for people to amass invest in identity
security. But that's what's going to
happen at some point, whether it's 2025 or later, I don't
know. But I think there is going to
be, you know, a sharp increase in breaches that drive the
identity security investment. It makes sense, right?
So what you're saying is that it's going to get worse before
it gets a little bit better, right?
It's going to get worse before people go and get behind this
thing. It it makes lots of sense.
No, I don't think it human nature of people thinking, yeah.
I don't think it it, I don't think it necessarily impedes
though the pace of innovation, right?
What we're talking about is, is investment.
And yes, you know, we are humans and budgets are limited and
people go where the fire is and they put out the fire.
There will still be people who are thinking about where will
the fire go next? And products will be developed
in anticipation of where those go.
And sometimes they're right and they make a billion dollars and
sometimes they're wrong and they fail or it wasn't the right, you
know, solution where it may be. And so, you know, I, I'm with
you, Jim. I'm trying to make it take a
more positive spin on it to try and end our show.
But I'm with you because it, it does take a bad thing to happen
sometimes to OK, well, we can't have that again.
We can't have another, you know, socks, you know, finding or we
can't have another regulatory finding or a breach or whatever
it may be. We have to invest and catch up.
And I think that's where a lot of companies fall into this trap
of what I call the peaks and valleys of their investments is
they didn't keep sustained investment to keep pace and keep
good security posture management in place.
They did a spend, caught up and then let it die slowly.
And then now they're doing another spend and they're going
back up again instead of having this this, this consistent
approach to it. I agree, which I I had a comment
on that the last thought of how we keep things interesting,
right. So posture management becomes
day of your life. And one thing that I caught up
during my, my recent travels, which has, they have been quite
intense is Duolingo, right? I, I, I'm, I'm learning French
and I, I can order tea in French now.
It works. It works and, and, and that type
of gamification. So I'm, I'm thinking perhaps
that we could do that, something like that for identity posture
that becomes something more acceptable, right?
Yeah. Nobody likes to wake up in the
morning and work out. But that's basically what we're
describing that identity security posture management
requires. If you can figure out how to
turn World of Warcraft into some sort of, you know, gamification
of identity management, I am right there with you, baby.
There you go, man. Start up time, yeah.
All right, let's go ahead and start wrap things up.
I, I got to ask because you mentioned it earlier, Henrique,
Mike Tyson versus Jake Paul. You know, they, they fought a
couple weeks ago at this point, you know, what are, what are
your thoughts on that? Man, it, it is crazy because my
son was asking me about this because when I say, hey, I'm
going to do this podcast today and say, OK, are you going to be
talking about Mike Tyson? Say what?
No, I so now I I think I'm I have but now.
You can say you kid, you did. Yeah, we did talk about Mike
Tyson, man, what I think was amazing is that how many
generations were watching that thing from from Gen. alphas all
the way to boomers and and and and different preferences.
Of course I, I, I wanted Mike Tyson to win.
I think people, my generation would would perhaps OK, yeah.
There's no, no way this YouTube will, will, will I, I thought
Jake Paul would will lose that one on points, but I think
there's a lot of the controversy came in about the things he said
after the fight, right. And so, yeah, I that he took it
easy on, on Mike and, and which is kind of weird, but before all
the the hype came in, I thought, well, man, this guy's going to
be destroyed. I think Mike Tyson's going to
kill this guy. And and there was a fight before
the main match. I don't know if you guys saw it.
Did you guys watch it Was a was a Brazilian was a Brazilian
comedian was a Brazilian comedy called Winderson Nunes the
Winderson is a is a stand up comedy comic in in Brazil turn
into fighter and now and then and he got demolished right by
this this Indian boxer. And I thought yeah, that that's
that's what I would expect to happen with with Jake Paul, but
I was wrong. I think as many people, I think
a lot of people. That was a weird.
Fight. I mean, it was an exhibition,
right? I mean, let's look, Father Time
is undefeated, right? Tyson is 58 years old.
You know, I sneeze and sometimes my back hurts.
He got into a ring and went 12 rounds with a young man who is
a, you know, a, a, an established fighter.
I don't know how good he is, but he's been in the ring and he's
been fighting. You know, he's got some success
there. But 58 years old, Hey, man, you
know that's off to you. I would have loved to see Tyson
win only because I think it's like a generational thing,
right? You grew up with Mike Tyson, you
grew up with Michael Jordan, you grew up with Walter Payton,
right? All these sports heroes of your
time, you don't wanna see them get dethroned.
And hey, Tyson made what, $20 million?
I I don't need to go 12 rounds, you know, someone can, someone
can push me and I'll take the $20 million and I'll fall down
and take the TKO. Right, exactly.
But but I'll tell you what, also hats off to to that guy, Jake
Paul, just to orchestrate this, this whole endeavor, right.
And he has this vision of OK, I'm, I'm gonna number one, I'm
gonna learn a new sport and I'm gonna fight perhaps the, the,
the GOAT. And, and to make that happen,
yeah, it takes a lot of yeah. Jake Paul got 40 million for the
fight and Enrique I don't. And Jeff, I don't know if you
guys watched the fight or not, but Jake Paul definitely could
have pummeled Mike Tyson. First off, he was like 6 inches
taller and bigger. Exactly, his reach was.
For my my fellow 50 year old and plus, you know you're not going
to beat somebody in their 20s who's more fit than you.
It's just. Not good to.
Happen, you know, if it was a one round fight, Tyson might
have been OK, but your VO2 Max, which is like your ability to
move oxygen around your body at 58 years old versus a young man
in his 20s and his prime, that's just.
Did I say Father Time? The idea of him lasting, I think
it was an 8 round fight, the idea of Tyson and and he was
exhausted by the end. But Tyson said one thing at the
end which is he doesn't know if that's his last fight.
Why would it be? Who amongst us wouldn't go in
the in the ring for $20 million and just let Jake Paul kick the
crap out of us? As long as you live, you got 20
million bucks. So, Jim, maybe this is our our
future endeavour. We did, you know, Fido feud at
authenticate. Maybe we do a identity boxing
circuit or some sort. If there's anybody who's
listening who wants to beat me up for $20 million, I'll take
your money, right? I will not get into a cage match
with David Mottie however, so this this is where I draw a
line. Even for 20 million.
That guy that this, that guy is massive so.
Yeah, he is. He's he's he's really.
Built well, but but back to to Tyson and Jake, just to to close
that up my what my son told me right this morning, he said, but
that you know that that fight was scripted right.
I said, what do you know about scripts?
I don't know very interesting either.
Yeah. I mean, everyone has the plan to
get punched in the face, I think Tyson.
Said that once. Tyson Yeah.
Yeah, it was an exhibition match.
It was interesting to watch. You know, it was a spectacle if
you could watch it. I know Netflix had trouble
streaming and I didn't watch it. I didn't really care so much.
But hey, just to be in the ring for 58 years old and to go the
distance and, you know, be up there, like I said, you know,
sometimes I sleep wrong and my neck hurts.
You know, I'm not going to criticize any of those guys.
You know, hats off to them. They made their money, you know,
time to move on. All right, why don't we go and
wrap it up there for this week? Enrique, it's always a pleasure
having you on open door policy. Anytime you got something you
want to come on and and talk about, you know, the door is
open, come on in and you know, we can get to it.
We're going to go ahead and leave it there for this week.
Enrique. I'll put a link in our show
notes to your LinkedIn profile. So people want to reach out,
connect, you know, they'll be able to do that.
Also have a link to Savient so people can check that out.
If you haven't heard of Savient, not sure who you might be if
you're listening to this podcast, but go check them out
as well. And yeah, we'll have links for
Jim and I as well to connect. Helps us, you know, if we get
feedback, say what works, what's not working.
So we're always looking for stuff.
If you have ideas for shows, drop us a note there.
You know, that's always good. And then of course, you know,
we're still on the YouTube. idacpodcast.tv takes you
straight to our episodes there. Do us a favor, like and
subscribe. That helps out the show.
And yeah, we'll leave it there. So thanks everyone for watching
and or listening and we'll talk with you all in the next one.
You've been listening to Identity at the Center.
We hope you've enjoyed the show. Make sure to like, rate and
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