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You're listening to the identity
of the center podcast, this is 

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the show that talks about 
identity and access management 

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and making sure you know who has
access to what let's get 

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started. 
Welcome to the identity of the 

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sender podcast, I'm Jeff and 
that's Jim. 

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Hey Jim hey Jeff. 
How are you not so bad yourself 

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doing great episode 199. 
Uh, come a long way my man. 

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Yeah, I still don't know what 
we're doing but we're doing it. 

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I remember when we did our first
episode where like watching the 

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number of downloads and was like
20 down to is we had 20 

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download, double digits double. 
You're the smartest people in 

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the world and we knew everybody 
who downloaded. 

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Oh yeah yeah. 
I was like eight of them. 

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Testing on different devices. 
Yeah, yeah. 

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So I had a conversation with 
somebody who asks a very 

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insightful question which was 
why do people hire you guys 

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Consultants? 
Why don't they just do it 

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themselves? 
And I had to reflect and think 

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about that but I thought there 
are kind of three areas. 

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I want to bounce these off of 
you and see if you agree. 

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So the first one is Kind of lack
of experience or capability with

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what the project or effort is 
that they're trying to do so, 

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you know, you and I have a lot 
of experience in building. 

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I am programs. 
So for an organization that 

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doesn't have someone with that 
experience. 

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They bring in quote unquote. 
The experts I hate calling 

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myself the expert, but, you 
know, so that's number one. 

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Number two, was they lack the 
quantity of staff? 

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In order to go at the speed that
they want. 

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So, you know, they have a 
limited number of people in the 

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team. 
They want to go fast. 

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They want to implement software,
they need to burst up. 

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So Consultants are a way to do 
that. 

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And then the third area, which I
kind of feel like happens to 

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least, but it could happen. 
More is because maybe 

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Consultants can do it at a lower
cost. 

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So those are the three that I 
came up with is there are 

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certain scenarios. 
I, you know, I think in that 

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Last one, it's usually not 
expert Consulting but managed 

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operation. 
I mean, how many organizations 

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do you see? 
Outsourcing the operations, the 

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ongoing support of their I am 
system. 

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I'm seeing it more and more all 
the time. 

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Yeah, I see it more and more but
I think you get what you pay for

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sometimes and I don't know if 
it's necessary, it's been great 

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for like yeah, let's keep the 
lights on but I don't find those

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companies that have taken that 
step as innovating in the ride, 

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any programs they've basically 
stopped moving forward. 

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We have hit the pause button and
everything they're doing. 

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They really don't care about 
keeping the lights on. 

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I think it's pretty rare that 
you find a true partner in the. 

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In the managed service partner 
area that is actually still 

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continuing to help their 
customer, their client evolve 

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improve stay current with the 
trends. 

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The identity space. 
They're trying to lower their 

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costs as much as possible and 
especially if they're on a fixed

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fee, you know, sort of like 
retainer type thing. 

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They're not going to volunteer 
additional work. 

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That's going to hurt their 
margin. 

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Right. 
Hey this isn't so. 

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Side baseball for Consulting, 
right? 

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This is how it works, you 
mentioned a couple things, 

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right? 
So experienced speed, the lower 

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cost, I don't know if you get 
all three necessarily I could 

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get depends how you work with 
the experience. 

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I think is the most important 
one. 

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I think you're not your the 
thing that I think find it is 

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most helpful is that you're 
bringing in people who have done

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it before and who have made the 
mistakes before. 

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So they can tell you what 
mistakes not to make so that you

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can fail and new and novel ways 
rather than ways that already 

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been done before. 
So you know, and I think that 

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that's just the reality 
situation is okay. 

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Well, you and I have done I 
don't know hundreds Think at 

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this point you know of strategy 
engagements and advisory and 

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assessments and things like 
that. 

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So we have the experience of 
going across a number of 

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different verticals. 
A number of different companies 

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of size. 
Use cases, Etc. 

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We kind of know what works what 
doesn't work along with their 

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own experience in the Enterprise
where we both kind of came from 

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before Consulting? 
So I think that's the biggest 

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benefit, you know, the reason 
why you wouldn't want to do it 

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cost. 
I mean, why wouldn't you want to

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get into an ex, you know, get an
expert who can do it unless you 

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can't afford it and then - right
and budgets are big things, but 

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she right now with the way the 
economy is going, not everyone 

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has X number of dollars to bring
in an expert. 

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So to help solve their problems.
And I think that's where things 

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like this podcast ID Pro, you 
know, conferences, that are out 

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there, things like that, there 
is a lot of good stuff that's 

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out there. 
That people can kind of tap into

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the accelerator. 
I think is helping people 

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understand, okay? 
Here's what you want to be 

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looking for. 
Here's what I hear the things 

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you need to think about versus 
trying to figure it out on your 

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own and you may be successful or
might Take you longer to get to 

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that successful State compared 
to someone who's been down that 

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road before I agree. 
I think conferences are great 

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way to learn. 
I think, one of the best things 

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about conferences is when Jim 
and Geoff, facilitate a session,

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which I posted to my LinkedIn 
today, that we are facilitating 

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a session at the Gartner. 
Some I am Summit, which is in 

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two short months, not even in in
Grapevine, Texas. 

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And I put the post out there You
see if folks would volunteer 

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questions because we're going to
do more or less like a fireside 

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chat and but no fired with no 
fire, maybe a flamethrower. 

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Yeah. 
Anyway I'd love to kind of 

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gather questions but my other 
question for you. 

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So looking at the agenda for 
identi verse now and kind of 

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gearing up for us going there. 
And what I wanted to know is, 

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will you You do the morning yoga
session with me? 

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No Sunrise. 
Yoga. 

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Thank you, though. 
Appreciate it. 

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I will be somewhere getting 
trying to find Chicken and 

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Waffles. 
If I can and carving up. 

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Right. 
I gotta, you know, be ready to 

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go for the day. 
Yeah, well, there's no better 

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way than to start with Sunrise 
yoga at 6:30 a.m.? 

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Yeah. 
No, that's going to be a no for 

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me, dog. 
As I Randy Jackson would, like, 

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to say you mentioned the Garter 
thing, but definitely get this 

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out there. 
We're trying to, you know, 

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really come up with good 
questions that we can ask the 

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Gartner analyst out there. 
They've been very gracious so 

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far. 
If you are concerned at all 

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about what you might want to ask
in public, I did reply to your 

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comment on LinkedIn or your post
on LinkedIn. 

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Feel free to DM me. 
I will keep your secret identity

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secret, and we're going to take 
the best questions and try Jan 

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them. 
Only half an hour, and there's a

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couple of you, and I've already 
come up with and we want to make

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sure we try to get, you know, 
good solid hard questions that 

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we can really Grill, Henry, Kay.
And Becky on. 

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So if they're listening, I hope 
they are prepared. 

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The intent is to really get to 
the belly of the Beast as we're 

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calling it for the gardener. 
I am conference. 

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Yeah. 
Absolutely, anybody who 

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volunteers to question two, I'm 
going to make an offer. 

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You DM. 
Me your mailing address and I 

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will send you an identity to 
Center sticker, which is like 

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one of those cool vinyl stickers
which is whether Proof. 

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It's also dishwasher proof and 
yeah, but I think most people 

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will put it on their laptop lid,
so that's kind of cool. 

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I don't know, I mean, this is 
exclusive thing. 

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I don't even have a sticker, so 
people be a have them. 

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Our friend, Stephen strong has 
put a sticker on the back of his

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trailer. 
So, somewhere in the Seattle 

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area, is and identity at the 
center sticker on the back of 

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his. 
I'm not sure what he's toting 

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around in there, but that's the 
only sticker that I'm aware of 

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in the wild. 
But be cool to see more out 

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there. 
So yeah. 

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DM Jim your address and he will 
send you all try to remember to 

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put the sticker in the in the 
letter before he mails it and 

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that is something that's like 
joke. 

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Yeah. 
All right. 

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Why don't we get to our topic du
jour? 

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Because we've covered a lot of 
topics that she can certainly 

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help us with. 
I'm very happy to have Sarah 

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cicchetti back with us. 
She is the head of product for 

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AWS Cognito. 
She's a co-founder and board 

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member of ID Pro and this is her
third time. 

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Time on the identity of the 
sender. 

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Podcast, welcome back, Sarah 
hola. 

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So it's been a while. 
The last time you were with us 

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in person in quotation marks 
because we're all virtual at 

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this point Rights was episode 
101 where we talked about AWS 

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Cognito. 
And at the time they about to or

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new re-released CID Pro 
certification from ID Pro, so 

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I'm sure a lot has happened 
going to cover that. 

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And then after that, we did a An
episode. 

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And by the way, that was like, 
whatever. 

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I think our most popular episode
that we've ever done. 

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So, if you haven't heard her 
episode, that's a great one 

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everyone. 
For whatever reason decides to 

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go right to 101, which is fine 
with me because episode 1, 

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frankly sucks, because it's 
literally me on Zoom, with Jim 

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on a echoey basement office. 
And it's not the best audio. 

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Quality content is good. 
I think, but the presentation, 

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we will more desired. 
So there we go. 

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One-on-one Sarah. 
Why don't we start there real 

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quick? 
Because if I, if people want to 

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know their order, Origin story. 
They can always go back and 

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listen to that. 
How is, let's start with CID 

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Pro. 
It's been a couple years. 

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How's that going? 
It's really exciting. 

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We've had a number of different 
people take the test and a vast 

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majority of people are passing. 
They tell us it's a hard test, 

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it's really challenging. 
It makes them feel like They 

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don't know everything about 
identity, which is true for 

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everyone, right? 
No one knows everything about 

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identity, but at the end of the 
test, you get scores for each of

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the five different pillars that 
are on the test. 

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You actually know like, okay, I 
passed. 

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But this is how well, I didn't 
each area. 

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Like this is where I can go and 
read more of the body of 

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knowledge, which we'll talk 
about later, and and kind of 

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expand my skills. 
So, it's, it's been valuable, 

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not just from the point of view 
of validating. 

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Like, yes, I am an expert in 
this. 

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I do know what I'm talking about
but also helping you understand 

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where your growth areas are. 
I think that's super unique and 

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super cool because usually, you 
take a certification test. 

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This is like, did I pass or 
fail? 

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How did I do? 
I don't know. 

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And you don't really know what 
how you did and what are easy to

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study on. 
I could tell you it's not a 

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pushover test for sure. 
I am fortunate enough to have 

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been involved in the first round
of creating questions. 

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I think I have I don't know if 
my question is still in there 

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but that is not a pushover test 
so people who are CDI CID Pro 

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certified. 
Know their stuff. 

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Yeah, maybe they're not 20 years
into it, but they definitely had

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to, you know, study and have 
some experience to get this 

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done. 
I think the target for it is 

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what two years I think of 
experiences is that roughly kind

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of what it was looking at, or 
was it more or less than that. 

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Yeah, so we had a bunch of 
identity. 

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Experts yourself excited. 
Me included, right. 

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Questions for the test, the 
questions are hard, but when we 

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calibrated the test, we had a 
bunch of identity experts take 

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it. 
We knew how long each of them 

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had spent in the field. 
And so we said, okay, where 

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should we make the cut line? 
This test, is it? 

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You have to get 70% of the 
questions, right? 

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Is it have you 90% of the 
questions right? 

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00:11:29,300 --> 00:11:32,300
And we made the cut line, right?
At people who have less than two

229
00:11:32,300 --> 00:11:35,900
years of experience, answered 
fewer than this number and 

230
00:11:35,900 --> 00:11:38,800
people who had more than two 
years of experience answered 

231
00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:41,500
more than this number correctly.
So if you have two years of 

232
00:11:41,500 --> 00:11:44,900
experience in the field on 
average, you should be able to 

233
00:11:44,900 --> 00:11:48,100
pass the test. 
Yeah, I it's a good test. 

234
00:11:48,100 --> 00:11:50,200
I'm definitely recommend you to 
folks, to go out and take a look

235
00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:52,700
at it. 
We always talk about ID Pro, I 

236
00:11:52,700 --> 00:11:54,800
think hands down. 
The thing that has mold Most 

237
00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:58,500
worth it is the slack Channel 
and just having access to so 

238
00:11:58,500 --> 00:12:00,600
many smart people. 
I know that I've asked questions

239
00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:03,400
in there and gotten answers, you
know, pretty much right away for

240
00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:05,300
my daily work, and things like 
that. 

241
00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:09,400
Even if even if you are a 
lurker, which I tend to be in 

242
00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:13,400
those types of scenarios, it is 
so worth it just just for just 

243
00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:15,800
the slack Channel. 
Yeah there are a lot of Industry

244
00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:18,400
organizations that are just kind
of collections of vendors and 

245
00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:20,100
different ways for vendors to 
sell it. 

246
00:12:20,100 --> 00:12:23,600
You and Ida Pro is really just a
collection of like doers who are

247
00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:25,200
like oh God. 
Don't do that. 

248
00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:27,200
Don't use that products. 
Like, you'll hear a lot of 

249
00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:29,700
negative things, which I think 
makes people feel like, oh, this

250
00:12:29,700 --> 00:12:32,700
is an authentic place to be and 
to hang out and to get honest 

251
00:12:32,700 --> 00:12:34,800
information. 
Yeah, it's a cool spot. 

252
00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:36,100
I mean, I think I just want 
things I enjoy about. 

253
00:12:36,100 --> 00:12:38,500
The identity industry is, you 
know, for the most part I feel 

254
00:12:38,500 --> 00:12:42,200
like people are very welcoming 
and sharing and for a lot of 

255
00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:45,900
folks, this is not Secret Sauce 
information that they're trying 

256
00:12:45,900 --> 00:12:48,400
to hide something like that. 
Is competitive for other 

257
00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:50,200
reasons. 
Almost, obviously you're a 

258
00:12:50,208 --> 00:12:51,800
vendor or something like that, 
that might be something. 

259
00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:53,700
But for the most part, you know,
people willing to answer 

260
00:12:53,700 --> 00:12:56,500
questions. 
Share opinions, which I find the

261
00:12:56,508 --> 00:12:59,700
best part because sometimes we 
talk with analysts and other 

262
00:12:59,700 --> 00:13:01,500
things, they won't share an 
opinion on something. 

263
00:13:01,500 --> 00:13:05,200
They will give you a fact and 
not tell you why, something is 

264
00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:07,400
the way it is, or what they 
really feel about it, and things

265
00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:09,800
like that. 
It Pros, totally different, 

266
00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:14,700
you'll hear from the toriel 
Sarah, Ian, you know, Eric a 

267
00:13:14,700 --> 00:13:16,500
whole bunch of people who are 
out there just answering 

268
00:13:16,500 --> 00:13:18,600
questions and telling you how 
they see it. 

269
00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:22,400
And, you know, it's it's a good 
spot to kind of collaborate. 

270
00:13:23,100 --> 00:13:26,600
Commiserate celebrate whatever 
may be, and there's a whole job 

271
00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:28,700
or to there, which is cool. 
So if you know, for people who 

272
00:13:28,700 --> 00:13:31,600
are looking for identity work, 
there is a channel dedicated 

273
00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:35,400
specifically to finding roles 
within the identity field. 

274
00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:37,100
I think that is are all weaving 
around the world. 

275
00:13:37,100 --> 00:13:40,100
So it's not just focused on the 
US, its Global nature, which is 

276
00:13:40,100 --> 00:13:43,800
pretty neat. 
The other episode that you were 

277
00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:46,500
with us. 
Was episode number 151, another 

278
00:13:46,500 --> 00:13:50,200
very popular episode where we 
reached out to a bunch of our 

279
00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:52,200
identity. 
Rowdy Friends yourself included.

280
00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:55,800
And we asked Question, what is 
the difference between digital 

281
00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:58,400
identity and identity and access
management? 

282
00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:02,600
Now, I would like to play your 
clip that you sent us that we 

283
00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:05,100
played on that show, just to 
refresh people's memories 

284
00:14:05,500 --> 00:14:07,700
because after you listen to 
this, and it's about 2 minutes 

285
00:14:07,700 --> 00:14:09,800
long or so, I'm going to ask you
the question. 

286
00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:13,400
Has your opinion changed 
anything having heard from the 

287
00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:16,200
five or six other folks that we 
asked and the five or six other 

288
00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:18,900
different answers that we 
received from the different 

289
00:14:18,900 --> 00:14:21,200
people and identity. 
So let me play that clip now and

290
00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:25,100
then we'll keep going here. 
There is no difference between I

291
00:14:25,100 --> 00:14:27,900
a digital identity, and I 
suspect that's what many experts

292
00:14:27,900 --> 00:14:29,800
will tell you, but that's not 
true. 

293
00:14:30,700 --> 00:14:33,000
There's a very important and 
overlooked difference. 

294
00:14:33,900 --> 00:14:36,000
There's a division of the US 
government called the National 

295
00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:39,100
Institute for standards and 
technology or nist and their job

296
00:14:39,100 --> 00:14:42,700
is to measure things. 
How long is a meter, ask Nest, 

297
00:14:43,100 --> 00:14:47,300
how heavy is a Colombian ask 
missed well in the 21st century,

298
00:14:47,300 --> 00:14:50,000
they started measuring not just 
physical things, but digital 

299
00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:52,000
things, like, security, and 
identity. 

300
00:14:52,700 --> 00:14:57,000
They wrote a document called 
special publication 800-53, the 

301
00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:59,900
publication outlined a way to 
measure how strong an identity 

302
00:14:59,900 --> 00:15:03,100
transaction was and it used to 
measure called level of 

303
00:15:03,100 --> 00:15:05,000
assurance. 
How sure can I be that the 

304
00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:07,300
person at the end of the line is
who they say they are. 

305
00:15:08,300 --> 00:15:10,800
As that document, when into 
broad use, they found it had 

306
00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:13,500
cracks in its armor. 
It wasn't doing the job that it 

307
00:15:13,500 --> 00:15:16,500
was intended to do because it 
was too one-dimensional, and it 

308
00:15:16,500 --> 00:15:19,100
was one dimensional and exactly,
the access that we're focusing 

309
00:15:19,100 --> 00:15:21,500
on. 
In this episode, it conflated, I

310
00:15:21,500 --> 00:15:24,600
am with digital identity. 
It said that the strongest 

311
00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:27,600
transactions have both strong 
authentication mechanisms and 

312
00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:30,500
strong identity proofing, 
meaning that we verified the 

313
00:15:30,500 --> 00:15:32,900
real-life identity of the person
at the end of the line. 

314
00:15:33,700 --> 00:15:36,800
But that measure me leaves, no 
room for a very important use 

315
00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:40,200
case, strongly authenticated, 
Anonymous users. 

316
00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:44,200
Imagine a political dissident 
who wants to tell the story of 

317
00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:47,100
what she's experiencing in her 
country, but she needs to keep 

318
00:15:47,100 --> 00:15:49,600
her identity hidden so that her 
government won't find her. 

319
00:15:50,700 --> 00:15:52,900
Do we need strong authentication
for that person? 

320
00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:55,100
Absolutely. 
We need to use the strongest 

321
00:15:55,100 --> 00:15:57,700
technology we have to make sure 
that her lines of communication 

322
00:15:57,700 --> 00:16:00,700
haven't been compromised. 
Do we need strong identity 

323
00:16:00,700 --> 00:16:03,900
proofing to make person? 
No identity proofing. 

324
00:16:03,900 --> 00:16:06,100
That person could actually 
compromise her safety. 

325
00:16:06,700 --> 00:16:09,100
We need strong. 
I am without strong visual 

326
00:16:09,100 --> 00:16:11,700
identity. 
That's when Miss hired a team of

327
00:16:11,700 --> 00:16:14,400
identity experts, including 
myself to rewrite the whole 

328
00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:16,200
concept of identity 
verification. 

329
00:16:16,700 --> 00:16:18,800
We threw out the one-dimensional
motor and made it three 

330
00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:21,900
dimensional now. 
Stead of one level of assurance.

331
00:16:21,900 --> 00:16:25,100
There are three identity 
Assurance level authenticator 

332
00:16:25,100 --> 00:16:29,100
Assurance level and Federation 
Assurance level because I am and

333
00:16:29,100 --> 00:16:32,100
digital identity are, and must 
remain different. 

334
00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:34,800
So, Sarah has your opinion 
changed? 

335
00:16:35,300 --> 00:16:36,900
No. 
In fact, I think this has gotten

336
00:16:36,900 --> 00:16:42,100
even more important like as 
we're seeing Wars and Ukraine. 

337
00:16:42,100 --> 00:16:46,800
And Russia is we're seeing civil
unrest in our on like we need to

338
00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:49,300
get first-hand accounts of those
things. 

339
00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:52,100
And at the same Same time. 
We're seeing a lot of upheaval 

340
00:16:52,100 --> 00:16:54,400
and Twitter and saying, oh you 
have to be verified, we have to 

341
00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:56,200
know your real name. 
You have to have a credit card, 

342
00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:57,400
right? 
Or we're not going to promote 

343
00:16:57,400 --> 00:16:59,100
your content. 
We're not going to show you in 

344
00:16:59,100 --> 00:17:00,200
search. 
We're not going over going to 

345
00:17:00,208 --> 00:17:01,400
Shadow ban you. 
Right? 

346
00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:04,900
And so I think it's a it's a 
really important topic. 

347
00:17:04,900 --> 00:17:08,800
More that I had that ever to say
is this actually a valuable 

348
00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:12,200
thing to know someone's real 
name, like it certainly valuable

349
00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:15,599
to know they're human it might 
be valuable to know where their 

350
00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:22,300
citizenship is and so this isn't
An interesting place where we 

351
00:17:22,300 --> 00:17:25,200
might want some zero, knowledge 
proof technology to come along 

352
00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:27,700
and say like, I don't want to 
know who you are but I do want 

353
00:17:27,700 --> 00:17:29,000
to know that you're a US 
citizen. 

354
00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:30,600
I do want to know that you're a 
human. 

355
00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:33,000
I do want to know that you're an
adult. 

356
00:17:33,700 --> 00:17:36,200
Is there a place for anonymity 
on the web? 

357
00:17:37,100 --> 00:17:41,600
I think there has to be, I think
if we want people to be honest 

358
00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:44,600
and have free speech, you have 
to allow them to say things 

359
00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:49,600
without using their real names. 
Right, I agree, I think that's 

360
00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,700
important, but I think there's a
danger that comes along with 

361
00:17:52,700 --> 00:17:54,900
that. 
I mean, some of the kind of the 

362
00:17:54,900 --> 00:17:57,200
vitriol, we see in message 
boards. 

363
00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:02,200
I mean, it ties back to people's
ability to be anonymous and 

364
00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:05,600
would they say those same things
if someone knew it was them 

365
00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:07,800
saying them. 
Sure. 

366
00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:10,200
But there are other solutions to
that like moderation. 

367
00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:12,400
That doesn't mean that we have 
to get rid of anonymity 

368
00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:15,000
altogether. 
Yeah, good answer. 

369
00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:17,900
I know what I thought when we 
were going through it episodes 

370
00:18:17,900 --> 00:18:21,900
like yeah, I think you had the 
most academic answer but you 

371
00:18:21,900 --> 00:18:25,700
know after you after we listen 
to your answers like yep I 

372
00:18:25,700 --> 00:18:29,800
agree. 
And then we had Ian's and every 

373
00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:32,800
listing that and it was 
different like yep I agree. 

374
00:18:33,100 --> 00:18:38,000
And then we had, you know, one 
which we played On a different 

375
00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:43,100
episode from fried entity and he
made his analogy of like, it's 

376
00:18:43,300 --> 00:18:46,400
like football. 
You be talking about the 

377
00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:49,400
physical object of a football or
you could be talking about the 

378
00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:53,800
this idea of a game that we all 
call football. 

379
00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:57,000
And I was like, yeah, that I 
agree with him too. 

380
00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:00,000
Yeah, I feel the same way. 
It was like the, the context 

381
00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:03,600
changes based on who you're 
talking to, and what I found 

382
00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:07,200
interesting about that 
conversation was of the people 

383
00:19:07,300 --> 00:19:10,300
That we had on that sent us 
something. 

384
00:19:10,700 --> 00:19:15,800
Only one person was not an 
identity product person and that

385
00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:20,000
was Adam from Texas A&M and he 
had a completely different 

386
00:19:20,300 --> 00:19:22,800
answer to. 
What was generally kind of 

387
00:19:23,700 --> 00:19:26,300
agreed. 
Sort of a, you know, I think 

388
00:19:26,300 --> 00:19:29,400
what we call like a disagreement
of identity was still, sort of 

389
00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:33,300
an agreement and Adam was the 
only one who had a completely 

390
00:19:33,300 --> 00:19:34,900
different. 
He actually flipped on his head.

391
00:19:34,900 --> 00:19:37,100
He saw, I am a sort of like the 
thing. 

392
00:19:37,300 --> 00:19:41,500
At the top and then July 2nd is 
the thing below that, whereas 

393
00:19:41,500 --> 00:19:43,600
everyone else saw it flipped the
other way. 

394
00:19:43,700 --> 00:19:46,600
And I wonder if that was 
something because of how close 

395
00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:49,300
maybe people in the identity 
industry, are we work in the 

396
00:19:49,300 --> 00:19:52,900
stuff day in day out and Adam is
running an identity program. 

397
00:19:52,900 --> 00:19:55,900
For I think the largest 
university system in the world 

398
00:19:55,900 --> 00:19:59,000
as far as I know. 
So he has a totally different. 

399
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:02,500
He's that he's more of a 
consumer of identity products 

400
00:20:02,700 --> 00:20:05,700
whereas you you're managing a 
team of identity people and your

401
00:20:05,700 --> 00:20:08,500
building. 
Aw, Magneto and other identity 

402
00:20:08,500 --> 00:20:10,400
type products. 
The same as like, Ian for 

403
00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:14,500
Salesforce and and Jamie at 
Sadie and things like that. 

404
00:20:14,500 --> 00:20:20,000
And I wonder if if it's being so
close to the problem, you know 

405
00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:22,500
Shades your answer One Direction
or another. 

406
00:20:22,900 --> 00:20:25,500
Well I think it speaks to what a
poor job we've done as a 

407
00:20:25,508 --> 00:20:29,000
community of actually defining 
our terms and making them 

408
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:30,700
consistent. 
That's something we're trying to

409
00:20:30,700 --> 00:20:34,200
do is part of Ida Pro. 
There's a article in the body of

410
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:37,800
knowledge that is just 
terminology and some Of the 

411
00:20:38,500 --> 00:20:41,200
words in the terminology have 
multiple definitions, right? 

412
00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:43,600
Because different people to find
them different ways in different

413
00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,000
contexts. 
And so we're at least trying to 

414
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:48,900
codify all that in a way that's 
free and online where people can

415
00:20:48,900 --> 00:20:52,500
go and look at it. 
But yeah there's a there's a lot

416
00:20:52,500 --> 00:20:54,700
of things that the identity 
Community has done in a terrible

417
00:20:54,700 --> 00:20:56,700
way like every time I get an 
Uber and they're like what do 

418
00:20:56,708 --> 00:20:58,400
you do? 
I'm like I work on login systems

419
00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:01,000
and I'm so sorry that we suck at
our jobs. 

420
00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:03,000
Yeah. 
I guess it's a question to us 

421
00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:05,700
like, well how do you do like 
well I'm a security consultant 

422
00:21:05,700 --> 00:21:07,600
so what does that mean? 
Say well, you know, I IDs and 

423
00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:10,100
passwords that sort of thing. 
And then it's like, all right, 

424
00:21:10,100 --> 00:21:11,900
end of conversation. 
They have no desires. 

425
00:21:11,900 --> 00:21:14,400
Talk to me after that me. 
Hi, I'm the problem. 

426
00:21:14,500 --> 00:21:17,200
It's me about that, but I think 
that was the Genesis of the 

427
00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:19,600
conversation is because there 
are so many different, you know,

428
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:22,200
different interpretations of 
that answer of, you know, what 

429
00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:24,800
is identity and Jim and I have 
this joke and this is something 

430
00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:27,400
I've been doing for years. 
We have, you know, we ride 

431
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:29,700
anywhere, I'd any Nexus 
management experts, right? 

432
00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:32,300
And then one of us might ask 
well, you know, at the end of a 

433
00:21:32,300 --> 00:21:34,400
session will what is I am? 
What is that? 

434
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:38,200
And it's just a running joke 
that Jim If it's kind of stupid 

435
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,600
inside baseball. 
But let's talk about identity 

436
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:44,700
and access management and 
managing a team because I would 

437
00:21:44,700 --> 00:21:47,300
imagine you have a pretty large 
team that you're managing from a

438
00:21:47,300 --> 00:21:50,100
Cognito perspective. 
And I think this is an area that

439
00:21:50,100 --> 00:21:52,600
we really haven't touched on is 
what is it? 

440
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:56,400
You know, what is it, like, to 
manage people in the space of 

441
00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,600
identity, we talked, we talked 
an awful lot about technology 

442
00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:04,800
and standards and how things 
work but people are still the 

443
00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:07,100
biggest equation when it comes 
to making all this. 

444
00:22:07,300 --> 00:22:10,400
Work and as the actual end users
and real want to kind of get 

445
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:14,800
into what is it like to manage 
an identity team and I guess 

446
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:15,800
I'll just start off the 
question. 

447
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:17,800
You know, what's the most 
important thing that people 

448
00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:19,700
should know about managing a 
team? 

449
00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:23,500
Is there any difference between 
managing a normal team as I'll 

450
00:22:23,500 --> 00:22:26,300
say versus an identity and 
access management team? 

451
00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:28,900
Not that they're not normal but 
I hope you get my drift. 

452
00:22:29,300 --> 00:22:32,900
Yeah, I think one of the hardest
parts of managing identity 

453
00:22:32,900 --> 00:22:37,100
projects in managing General 
software projects, is that the 

454
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:39,500
Timelines are really 
unpredictable, right? 

455
00:22:39,500 --> 00:22:41,800
Because identity is a security 
perimeter. 

456
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,600
It has to have really high 
usability, it has to have really

457
00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:47,300
high availability, right? 
At the login system is down. 

458
00:22:47,300 --> 00:22:51,300
Nobody's doing work, nobody's, 
buying, widgets, nobody's, doing

459
00:22:51,300 --> 00:22:52,600
whatever they're supposed to be 
doing. 

460
00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:54,500
So, we have to have extremely 
high usability. 

461
00:22:54,500 --> 00:22:58,100
We have to have bulletproof 
security where subject, to a ton

462
00:22:58,100 --> 00:23:00,600
of regulations, the security 
regulations. 

463
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:04,500
And if you're in the consumer 
identity, portion as Cognito is 

464
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:08,300
your subject to International 
SMS, Nations which are changing 

465
00:23:08,300 --> 00:23:12,000
constantly to try to combat spam
and how do you, how can you use 

466
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:13,800
long codes? 
How can you use, short codes? 

467
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,600
What are those costs? 
Look like we're subject to App, 

468
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:22,100
Store, regulations, and then 
like we are middleware, right? 

469
00:23:22,100 --> 00:23:25,000
We have 100 things Upstream. 
We have 100 things, Downstream, 

470
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,800
all sorts of things could break 
us, if they make small changes, 

471
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:29,900
we could break all sorts of 
things Downstream if we just 

472
00:23:29,900 --> 00:23:32,500
make small changes. 
And so, if we want to make 

473
00:23:32,500 --> 00:23:35,300
really big changes, that means 
that you've got to get a whole 

474
00:23:35,300 --> 00:23:38,100
bunch of people on board and And
ready to work. 

475
00:23:38,100 --> 00:23:42,400
So it's it makes the timelines 
really unpredictable. 

476
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:45,700
So if you are an identity team 
manager or you work in an 

477
00:23:45,700 --> 00:23:47,200
identity team, you're going, oh 
my God. 

478
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,300
Like why do these projects never
come in? 

479
00:23:49,300 --> 00:23:51,400
When we think they will, like, 
you're not alone. 

480
00:23:51,500 --> 00:23:54,200
That is, that is completely 
consistent with what the rest of

481
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:56,700
us are feeling. 
And that's part of being an 

482
00:23:56,700 --> 00:23:59,200
identity team. 
Is that like you go with the 

483
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:02,200
flow and things get done? 
When they get done sad, but 

484
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,900
true, but I guess solace in the 
fact that you are not alone, 

485
00:24:05,900 --> 00:24:07,800
right there are is the Equation 
of it. 

486
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:11,500
And I think about when we think 
about building an identity team,

487
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:15,000
there's also the human side of 
it to say, okay, well who are 

488
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:16,600
the people that we're going to 
have on this, who's going to 

489
00:24:16,608 --> 00:24:20,000
work on what? 
And can we find the Unicorn? 

490
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:24,400
That knows the technology is 
great at documentation 

491
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:28,000
understands how to communicate 
with customers and clients and 

492
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:30,100
things like that. 
Oh, and oh, by the way, they're 

493
00:24:30,100 --> 00:24:31,700
also really cool to work with 
right. 

494
00:24:31,700 --> 00:24:35,200
There is no personality issues 
there that might cause conflict,

495
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:39,200
I guess from your perspective, 
You know, I think I know what 

496
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:40,900
your answer is going to be. 
I'm going to ask it anyway, 

497
00:24:40,900 --> 00:24:42,900
right? 
Do you hire for knowledge or 

498
00:24:42,900 --> 00:24:46,400
attitude if you can't find both?
Yeah, I mean ideally, we want 

499
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,300
both but finding knowledge is 
hard, right? 

500
00:24:49,300 --> 00:24:51,700
Finding identity experts is 
really difficult. 

501
00:24:51,700 --> 00:24:54,900
Amazon pays a lot of money and 
we have trouble finding people 

502
00:24:54,900 --> 00:24:57,800
who are identity experts. 
When we do it's great, I love 

503
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:01,100
working with Dean sacks and 
Aaron Crow and all the people 

504
00:25:01,100 --> 00:25:03,100
who I work with who are just 
amazing. 

505
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:05,500
But obviously that's hard to 
find. 

506
00:25:05,500 --> 00:25:08,600
So as soon as you get a 
critical, Mass on your team. 

507
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,300
What we tend to do is just 
higher for ability to learn, 

508
00:25:11,300 --> 00:25:15,600
right are and are you a nice 
person who will help others 

509
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,400
learn once you get to be an 
expert and not just sit in a 

510
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,800
room by yourself and tell people
to go away miserly? 

511
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,400
I am wizard, you, no pay no 
attention to the man behind the 

512
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,600
curtain, whatever it may be. 
Jim I know this is a topic that 

513
00:25:28,608 --> 00:25:30,700
comes up a lot, right? 
It's like we always get asked, 

514
00:25:30,700 --> 00:25:34,400
it's like what does our? 
I am team look like and I don't 

515
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:35,200
know. 
I'm going to ask that. 

516
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:37,500
Question is if I was a client 
and I'm trying to stay It up and

517
00:25:37,500 --> 00:25:40,300
I am program and services at the
Enterprise level. 

518
00:25:40,300 --> 00:25:42,900
So, not on the product side. 
But hey, a consumer of these 

519
00:25:42,900 --> 00:25:47,500
Services out to my my users. 
What do you know, what do we 

520
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:49,400
kind of think? 
As I kind of our viewpoint on? 

521
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,000
How do you build an? 
I am team to start with? 

522
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:56,000
Yeah, I think it roughly is 
shaped like a pyramid, right? 

523
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,600
You have to have people with a 
lot of experience, a lot of 

524
00:25:59,900 --> 00:26:03,300
knowledge at the top, but I 
think to Sarah's Point like 

525
00:26:03,300 --> 00:26:07,500
having people who work well with
others, so you can kind of Build

526
00:26:07,500 --> 00:26:11,600
that team, there the wide part 
of the triangle and the bottom 

527
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,600
of people who have less 
experience, the less technical 

528
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,200
skills, put them in the right 
training, get them the right 

529
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:21,700
project experience and invest in
them. 

530
00:26:21,900 --> 00:26:27,800
They'll then move up the pyramid
and I think one of the risks is 

531
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,800
that you know those people may 
leave your organization, this 

532
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:32,500
happens, no matter where you 
are. 

533
00:26:32,500 --> 00:26:36,100
I'm sure even Sarah thinks about
that with like at Amazon like 

534
00:26:36,100 --> 00:26:40,200
hey, These people might move out
either to other parts of Amazon 

535
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:42,400
or they might leave the 
organization to go, make more 

536
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:46,500
money elsewhere. 
But look, that's what we have to

537
00:26:46,500 --> 00:26:47,800
do. 
We have to invest in people 

538
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:51,000
because, you know, one is the 
right thing to do. 

539
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,800
But number two, some of the 
people are going to stay, right?

540
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:58,500
And if you don't invest in them,
they're still going to move up 

541
00:26:58,500 --> 00:27:00,500
the ladder that just won't be as
prepared. 

542
00:27:00,500 --> 00:27:03,500
So you know, those were my 
thoughts, but what about you, 

543
00:27:03,500 --> 00:27:06,900
Jeff? 
Yeah, I feel like you're totally

544
00:27:06,900 --> 00:27:08,800
right on, right? 
I think if you try to plan 

545
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,000
around the worst case scenario, 
you'll never get anything done. 

546
00:27:11,300 --> 00:27:15,400
So if anybody, if you're 
operating good effective team 

547
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:17,600
that takes care of your own team
members and gives them 

548
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:20,500
opportunities, and things like 
that, I feel like that's kind of

549
00:27:20,500 --> 00:27:22,600
stuff that it will work out in 
the end. 

550
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,400
Give me attitude over knowledge,
any day, if I can get both 

551
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,900
fantastic, but if I could only 
have one, I feel like I could 

552
00:27:29,900 --> 00:27:32,600
train the knowledge. 
It's much more difficult to 

553
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,900
break habits personalities. 
It's things like that. 

554
00:27:35,900 --> 00:27:38,400
And, you know, everybody wants 
to work with people that they 

555
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,600
like to work with Jim, you and I
been working together for 89 

556
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:42,700
years. 
Now, at this point, we are 

557
00:27:42,700 --> 00:27:45,600
complete opposites in real life 
and yet it works, right? 

558
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:48,100
Which is whatever it is, 
whatever reason and so I know 

559
00:27:48,108 --> 00:27:49,900
how people think we're twins, 
right? 

560
00:27:50,100 --> 00:27:52,900
Yeah, I do. 
Yeah, we couldn't be further 

561
00:27:52,900 --> 00:27:55,500
from that and I don't know how 
that even as possible. 

562
00:27:55,500 --> 00:27:59,400
But okay, let's talk about the 
knowledge aspect of it though 

563
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:01,600
because that's probably the next
step, right? 

564
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:03,600
Is I think we can find people 
who have good attitudes. 

565
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:07,600
I think we all have those people
in our Lives and teams that they

566
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:08,900
are just, you know, great 
people. 

567
00:28:08,900 --> 00:28:11,400
How do we embolden them? 
And give them the tools, they 

568
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,100
need to grow better or to 
improve their knowledge in a 

569
00:28:14,108 --> 00:28:17,200
certain area and I'm curious 
Sarah from your perspective. 

570
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,400
Like what do you establish is 
sort of like the Baseline for? 

571
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,400
I am knowledge as someone 
joining your team, you know, if 

572
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:25,500
it's I would imagine is probably
difference if it's someone 

573
00:28:25,500 --> 00:28:28,600
who's, you know, never had a job
before or not, you know, not in 

574
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:32,200
that space versus maybe a couple
of years or maybe even more like

575
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:34,200
what is how do you establish 
that Baseline? 

576
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:36,200
We do. 
Do a lot of things. 

577
00:28:36,300 --> 00:28:41,100
It's not easy to get people up 
to speed and identity, but the 

578
00:28:41,100 --> 00:28:42,900
first thing we do is have them 
join it Pros. 

579
00:28:42,900 --> 00:28:49,600
So little plug here, Ida Pro 
dot-org, Amazon as a member at a

580
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:51,400
level where we get unlimited 
memberships. 

581
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:53,700
All of our employees, can go be 
members of ID Pro. 

582
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,200
I would highly recommend that 
for your organization and that 

583
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,800
just gives them a place where 
they can go ask any question, 

584
00:28:58,900 --> 00:29:00,800
right? 
I have a stupid question about 

585
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:02,100
Samuel. 
I have a stupid question about 

586
00:29:02,100 --> 00:29:03,700
open ID connect. 
I have a stupid question about 

587
00:29:03,700 --> 00:29:04,800
idea. 
Whatever it is. 

588
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:09,700
And very nice people will come 
and help you and share their 

589
00:29:09,700 --> 00:29:13,100
experience with you. 
So that's, that's a big part of 

590
00:29:13,100 --> 00:29:16,700
it, pointing them toward the 
body of knowledge and having 

591
00:29:16,700 --> 00:29:21,500
them read, especially the intro 
to Identity article and the is 

592
00:29:21,500 --> 00:29:23,300
Sean's. 
MSA for humans, article is a 

593
00:29:23,308 --> 00:29:30,400
great one to doing those. 
We try to create a culture where

594
00:29:30,700 --> 00:29:33,700
it is okay to escalate and they 
know what they should be 

595
00:29:33,700 --> 00:29:34,900
escalating about. 
Out. 

596
00:29:34,908 --> 00:29:38,500
So when they see something, that
might be a security issue like 

597
00:29:38,500 --> 00:29:42,400
hey we were testing this with 
fake user data and we noticed 

598
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:44,200
that fake user data showed up in
the logs. 

599
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:47,300
Like should we be paging someone
like yes. 

600
00:29:47,300 --> 00:29:50,300
You should be paging someone. 
And if it turns out that it's 

601
00:29:50,300 --> 00:29:52,500
fine, and it's not a problem, 
and that was totally intentional

602
00:29:52,500 --> 00:29:55,900
Behavior. 
Then you say, you know, this was

603
00:29:55,900 --> 00:29:57,900
unnecessary. 
But thank you for paging me, 

604
00:29:57,900 --> 00:29:59,900
right? 
If you tell them, like, you 

605
00:29:59,900 --> 00:30:02,500
wasted my time, stop doing that,
think more about what you do in 

606
00:30:02,500 --> 00:30:04,600
the future, right? 
If you're mean to them, then the

607
00:30:04,900 --> 00:30:07,400
That happens. 
They're going to be like, oh, I 

608
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:08,900
better not, tell Sarah about 
that. 

609
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,100
She's gonna be mean. 
We always want to make sure that

610
00:30:12,100 --> 00:30:14,700
like, if someone is bringing up 
a security issue no matter how 

611
00:30:14,700 --> 00:30:16,500
it. 
Like, there's a 1% chance that 

612
00:30:16,500 --> 00:30:19,400
something is wrong but they get 
priced for like, yes, please 

613
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:20,900
bring that to our attention 
immediately. 

614
00:30:21,100 --> 00:30:23,000
That's a huge part of it on my 
team. 

615
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,800
We have a weekly learning 
meeting for half an hour where 

616
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,600
we just re-watched identifies 
video, or we read an article, or

617
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:32,900
we do something, and it's a 
forcing function for us to go 

618
00:30:32,900 --> 00:30:35,900
and keep up on the industry and 
learn Learn what people are 

619
00:30:35,900 --> 00:30:39,700
writing and saying, and reading 
about different identity topics.

620
00:30:39,900 --> 00:30:43,400
So that's a huge part. 
And we have our new Engineers 

621
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:46,200
actually get on the phone with 
our customer support people. 

622
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:49,000
So, they'll sit right next to a 
customer service rep, and 

623
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,800
they'll put on their headphones 
and just listen to customer 

624
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:54,600
support calls and be able to 
hear first-hand. 

625
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:56,500
Like this, is the pain that 
customers are having. 

626
00:30:56,500 --> 00:30:58,800
This is the confusion that 
customers are having so that 

627
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:02,700
they get a real feel for what 
the customers are going through 

628
00:31:03,100 --> 00:31:06,400
and how they can help. 
How In build Products that come 

629
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:08,400
back that. 
So there's a number of different

630
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,900
things that we do to help get 
our team up to speed, but it's 

631
00:31:11,900 --> 00:31:13,300
hard. 
It's challenging and we're 

632
00:31:13,300 --> 00:31:14,900
constantly evolving how we do 
it. 

633
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:18,500
I find that interesting that you
have people sit in on actual 

634
00:31:18,500 --> 00:31:19,800
customer calls, kind of your 
things. 

635
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:21,000
Can you talk a little bit more 
about that? 

636
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:23,000
Because that's, that's a little 
bit unique. 

637
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:24,500
I don't know if I've heard that 
one before. 

638
00:31:24,500 --> 00:31:27,800
It was a way to get people sort 
of up to speed on the identity 

639
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,000
questions being asked. 
And I bet that there's probably 

640
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,800
some parallels that maybe people
can take, even the Enterprise 

641
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:34,400
scenario. 
Like, what are people calling? 

642
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:36,800
For password, resets, or things 
like that. 

643
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,100
And really kind of listening to 
the customer and probably their 

644
00:31:39,100 --> 00:31:41,100
frustration with something 
that's not working. 

645
00:31:41,900 --> 00:31:45,700
Absolutely, it helps us 
understand what terms customers 

646
00:31:45,700 --> 00:31:48,700
doing, don't know, right. 
It's a lot of people tried to 

647
00:31:48,708 --> 00:31:51,300
build identity systems, like I'm
just building an app and I need 

648
00:31:51,300 --> 00:31:53,500
to build a login and I don't 
really know anything about 

649
00:31:53,500 --> 00:31:55,000
identity yet. 
This is the first time I'm 

650
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:57,800
trying to do this. 
And all of a sudden, I'm 

651
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:01,200
drowning and documentation about
oauth, Scopes and claims. 

652
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:03,300
And all of these terms that I 
don't know what they mean, and 

653
00:32:03,300 --> 00:32:04,700
I've never heard of and what's 
it say? 

654
00:32:04,900 --> 00:32:06,500
Okin and where can I store the 
token? 

655
00:32:06,500 --> 00:32:10,400
Should I store the token? 
And so those kinds of questions 

656
00:32:10,700 --> 00:32:13,900
are things that you know may not
even occur to the average 

657
00:32:13,900 --> 00:32:16,900
developer that, oh, somebody 
doesn't know this. 

658
00:32:16,900 --> 00:32:19,000
Like they assume that the people
who are building our identity 

659
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,800
experts and they all know. 
And that's not the case, right? 

660
00:32:22,900 --> 00:32:26,400
Like when we build things, we 
have to be very, very clear as 

661
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,800
much as we can. 
In plain English about this is 

662
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,000
what this system does. 
This is how you make this 

663
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:36,700
decision. 
So having them on those calls 

664
00:32:36,700 --> 00:32:39,400
and hearing that firsthand 
directly from the mouth of the 

665
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:41,700
customer is really helpful. 
It's nothing like pain. 

666
00:32:41,700 --> 00:32:44,100
And someone's voice to really 
jolt someone into doing the 

667
00:32:44,100 --> 00:32:46,700
right thing. 
You talked about the body of pro

668
00:32:46,900 --> 00:32:49,200
body approach the the ID Pro 
body of knowledge. 

669
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,200
You talk about sitting in a 
conference calls and sort of 

670
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,200
learnings around different 
webinars that are going on. 

671
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,100
And I think one thing that I'd 
like to control it is 

672
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:02,300
conferences because I feel like 
things like identifier sand 

673
00:33:02,300 --> 00:33:05,000
Gartner's. 
I am Summit and and touching 

674
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,500
things like identity, we can 
Chrysalis and like it seems like

675
00:33:07,500 --> 00:33:10,300
there's no shortage of places 
for people to congregate 

676
00:33:10,500 --> 00:33:13,900
physically and kind of talk 
about different things. 

677
00:33:13,900 --> 00:33:17,600
How important do you do you see 
conferences as part of 

678
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,100
development and Jim, we're going
to ask you the same question is 

679
00:33:20,100 --> 00:33:21,900
like, how do you see that as 
being important for? 

680
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:23,200
For folks? 
Get on there, cuz I'm curious to

681
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,700
see how he answers me. 
There might wind up or maybe not

682
00:33:25,900 --> 00:33:28,200
Sarah wants to go first. 
I think it depends 

683
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,300
person-to-person kind of what 
they need, if they have no 

684
00:33:31,300 --> 00:33:32,900
exposure to the identity 
Community. 

685
00:33:32,900 --> 00:33:36,100
I absolutely like this. 
To be going to conferences, they

686
00:33:36,100 --> 00:33:38,000
should be meeting people. 
They should be asking questions.

687
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:41,100
They should be getting an idea 
of like these are the conference

688
00:33:41,100 --> 00:33:44,100
presentations that happen for 
someone who's been to 

689
00:33:44,100 --> 00:33:46,300
identifiers for like five years 
in a row. 

690
00:33:46,700 --> 00:33:49,600
Then I'm like, okay, you 
probably can do most of the 

691
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:51,200
presentations that are going to 
be. 

692
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:55,400
There is that it is that the 
best use of your time, Maybe 

693
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,200
not, maybe you should be 
presenting, maybe you should be 

694
00:33:58,200 --> 00:33:59,600
trying to get a keynote slot, 
right? 

695
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,000
Like maybe you should be trying 
to level up your level up your 

696
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:03,700
skills or go to something 
different. 

697
00:34:03,700 --> 00:34:06,600
Go to A European identity 
conference and see like, how are

698
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:09,300
they talking about things? 
There's way more of a focus on 

699
00:34:09,500 --> 00:34:13,100
consent, on privacy, on open 
banking on things that are not 

700
00:34:13,100 --> 00:34:16,100
issues in the US and so that 
that ability to go to Regional 

701
00:34:16,100 --> 00:34:18,400
conferences and see how 
different identity is in 

702
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,100
different places in the world. 
Really interesting really 

703
00:34:21,100 --> 00:34:25,000
valuable Jim about yourself, a 
feel like for you and I we 

704
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:26,500
probably have a little bit 
different take just because the 

705
00:34:26,500 --> 00:34:28,600
future for a job. 
I feel like it's networking is a

706
00:34:28,607 --> 00:34:31,199
big part of getting out there 
and meeting people and things 

707
00:34:31,199 --> 00:34:33,900
like that. 
Do we actually Ed ever learn 

708
00:34:33,900 --> 00:34:36,500
anything These conferences. 
Now we do. 

709
00:34:36,500 --> 00:34:41,400
I mean, you definitely learn 
through osmosis but you also, we

710
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:43,900
get to attend some of the 
sessions, but I just thought 

711
00:34:43,900 --> 00:34:47,500
that stars answer was perfect 
because attendance to 

712
00:34:47,500 --> 00:34:51,500
conferences. 
Really what you get out of it is

713
00:34:51,500 --> 00:34:55,400
going to depend largely on where
you are in your career path of 

714
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:57,200
your earlier in your career 
path. 

715
00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:01,100
Just sitting in some of the 
sessions and the networking you 

716
00:35:01,100 --> 00:35:04,000
know, that's where you're going 
to get a lot of benefit as you. 

717
00:35:04,100 --> 00:35:09,600
You move further into your 
career contributing is going to 

718
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:14,100
be more important. 
I also was just thinking about 

719
00:35:14,100 --> 00:35:16,700
it from. 
I mean, look what you sir are 

720
00:35:16,700 --> 00:35:19,900
tight. 
Everybody company's management 

721
00:35:19,900 --> 00:35:24,000
got used to not traveling and 
not sending people to 

722
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:29,000
conferences during covid-19 Alex
back and I think they're kind of

723
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:32,700
slowly, you know, getting back 
into making that investment. 

724
00:35:32,700 --> 00:35:37,900
But Companies have to, you know,
it's a cost a lot of money to 

725
00:35:37,900 --> 00:35:39,800
send somebody to a conference. 
You know, you've got the 

726
00:35:39,808 --> 00:35:42,700
conference pass and then you've 
got the travel. 

727
00:35:43,100 --> 00:35:48,000
And so, I think, you know, if 
you're an, I am company, you're 

728
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:51,700
probably going to look at it, 
like, okay, business development

729
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,000
is going to be your number one 
priority, but I think one of the

730
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:58,800
other key priorities is 
rewarding High performers. 

731
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:00,800
I think this is the independent 
of. 

732
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:04,000
If you're in the I am industry 
or your company. 

733
00:36:04,100 --> 00:36:07,500
And you're doing, I am. 
It's if you got people on your 

734
00:36:07,500 --> 00:36:10,500
team who are high performers, 
doesn't mean you need to send to

735
00:36:10,500 --> 00:36:15,600
every conference, but most 
people, I believe, look at being

736
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:20,500
sent to conferences as something
that is like a reward. 

737
00:36:20,900 --> 00:36:24,200
So they get to go, they get to 
network. 

738
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:28,700
They get to go out to some nice 
dinners maybe and to me that 

739
00:36:28,700 --> 00:36:30,400
that's part of it. 
What do you think? 

740
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:34,400
Not again spot-on. 
I mean think I you have to like 

741
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:36,700
to do it. 
I think a I recognize the fact 

742
00:36:36,700 --> 00:36:40,600
that not Everyone likes being in
that sort of social you know 

743
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:44,300
environment right with 
potentially hundreds thousands, 

744
00:36:44,300 --> 00:36:47,200
tens of thousands of people that
is not comfortable for a lot of 

745
00:36:47,207 --> 00:36:50,000
people and I think at least 
offering it as a choice is an 

746
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:51,300
option for people who are 
interested. 

747
00:36:51,300 --> 00:36:53,900
Great you're totally right about
the travel thing and it's not 

748
00:36:53,900 --> 00:36:56,500
cheap to go out and stuff and I 
think people have not been going

749
00:36:56,500 --> 00:37:00,500
to converse the last couple 
years, I was at RSA right before

750
00:37:00,500 --> 00:37:02,200
things. 
Kind of shut down for covid. 

751
00:37:02,300 --> 00:37:05,200
You know, few years ago, it was 
kind of like the last hurrah. 

752
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:07,500
And then things just went 
downhill from there is like 

753
00:37:07,700 --> 00:37:10,100
nobody's doing anything in 
person and then I was at RSA of 

754
00:37:10,100 --> 00:37:12,500
last year when things kind of 
opened back up and there was 

755
00:37:12,500 --> 00:37:17,000
like this celebratory feeling of
hey we're back we're back. 

756
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:21,200
Covid is no more not, maybe not 
necessarily true but there was a

757
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:23,200
there was a sigh of relief 
that's like Hey we're getting 

758
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:26,300
back to this, do you think there
is value of being, you know, in 

759
00:37:26,300 --> 00:37:28,900
the same place? 
So people hearing the hallway 

760
00:37:28,900 --> 00:37:32,000
conversations that take place 
are Are things that just don't 

761
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:35,100
normally happen on us, Zoom 
call, write or, you know, in a 

762
00:37:35,107 --> 00:37:37,000
text message or an email or 
things like that. 

763
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:38,800
That's the kind of stuff that I 
find, really invaluable. 

764
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:43,000
I always point back to, I think 
it was the coup, bring ercole 

765
00:37:43,500 --> 00:37:46,800
conference a few years back on 
customer identity for Roger 

766
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:48,600
Grimes. 
And I were at like a little 

767
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,400
table outside of this room and 
he explain Quantum Computing to 

768
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:53,100
me. 
And now I'm an expert on Quantum

769
00:37:53,100 --> 00:37:54,700
Computing. 
Just based on that 45 minute 

770
00:37:54,700 --> 00:37:58,200
conversation that Roger was So 
Graceful with this time within 

771
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:00,000
the money. 
And you know, just educating me 

772
00:38:00,008 --> 00:38:02,400
on the spot. 
That would not have happened. 

773
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,800
If he and I had both not been 
there right him to impart his 

774
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,600
wisdom and share his perspective
and me to absorb that like a 

775
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,400
sponge as much as I could. 
So I think is super valuable, 

776
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:16,400
but I think as Leaders of teams 
and we all are that is we have 

777
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:18,500
to understand that it's not 
always the appropriate choice 

778
00:38:18,500 --> 00:38:20,100
for a person. 
They may not be comfortable in 

779
00:38:20,100 --> 00:38:23,700
that role and that's okay too. 
Maybe it's a virtual pass, maybe

780
00:38:23,700 --> 00:38:26,100
it's some other, you know, 
learning development, you know, 

781
00:38:26,100 --> 00:38:27,700
things like that, that, that 
that they might be more 

782
00:38:27,700 --> 00:38:29,200
comfortable with. 
And I think we have to 

783
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:30,800
understand and be okay with 
that. 

784
00:38:30,900 --> 00:38:32,600
As well. 
They might see it as a 

785
00:38:32,607 --> 00:38:34,300
punishment. 
It's like, what do you mean 

786
00:38:34,300 --> 00:38:36,100
you're sending me out? 
I don't want to go to. 

787
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:38,400
I don't know. 
Someplace cold in the middle of 

788
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:39,600
winter. 
Like that doesn't sound like 

789
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:43,700
fun. 
Let's talk a little bit about 

790
00:38:43,700 --> 00:38:45,200
that. 
That concept of managing 

791
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:47,700
identity 18 and I'm curious 
Sarah from your perspective. 

792
00:38:47,700 --> 00:38:51,900
What is something that you wish 
you knew about managing a team 

793
00:38:51,900 --> 00:38:54,800
of identity engineers and 
analysts or whatever it may be? 

794
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:58,500
That you wish you had known that
when you started that might have

795
00:38:58,500 --> 00:39:01,800
made your life a little easier. 
It kind of falls into what we've

796
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,100
been talking about. 
I think one of the, one of the 

797
00:39:04,100 --> 00:39:07,400
mistakes I made us an early 
manager was I put my people on 

798
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:12,000
things, they were good at And 
what you do then is you use 

799
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:15,200
cement their skills and keep 
them from growing, right? 

800
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:18,000
So when I joined AWS, they were 
like, oh my God, Sarah is an 

801
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:20,200
amazing speaker, right? 
He was an exemplary, Erse 

802
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:21,900
speaker, she's been identified. 
As keynote. 

803
00:39:21,900 --> 00:39:25,900
She's a top 100 influencer 
women, in cybersecurity 

804
00:39:25,900 --> 00:39:28,100
speakers. 
All he's saying is and my 

805
00:39:28,100 --> 00:39:29,900
manager is immediately, like, 
yes, top doing that. 

806
00:39:30,700 --> 00:39:32,900
Like you need to learn pnl, you 
need to learn leadership. 

807
00:39:32,900 --> 00:39:36,000
You need to learn like all these
things like stop spending all 

808
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:39,200
your time doing something that 
you're already good at. 

809
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:44,500
You don't need to learn that and
so when I get a project on my 

810
00:39:44,500 --> 00:39:46,700
team that's like yeah this 
requires a whole bunch of data 

811
00:39:46,700 --> 00:39:49,000
and Analysis. 
Like I don't go to the guy who's

812
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:52,100
great at data and Analysis, I go
to the person who needs to learn

813
00:39:52,100 --> 00:39:56,400
that and I mean, unless we're on
like some crazy tight deadline, 

814
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:58,400
right? 
And we need our star players but

815
00:39:59,900 --> 00:40:03,500
really expanding the the 
capabilities of your team means 

816
00:40:03,500 --> 00:40:07,200
that you don't put the best 
person from the team on the job.

817
00:40:07,500 --> 00:40:08,900
What do you do to support that 
person? 

818
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,500
What's the support systems in 
place where they understand 

819
00:40:12,500 --> 00:40:14,100
them? 
Maybe they're not the expert on 

820
00:40:14,100 --> 00:40:17,200
it, but you're trusting them or 
giving them the tools that they 

821
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:19,400
need to be successful and ask 
questions and things like that 

822
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:22,200
because I think sometimes 
there's this I don't fear or 

823
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:24,400
whatever it may be is like well 
I don't know how to do this so 

824
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:26,700
and then I can't do it or I'm 
afraid to ask questions without 

825
00:40:26,700 --> 00:40:27,700
you know what's the support 
system? 

826
00:40:27,700 --> 00:40:29,500
You put in place to help those 
folks out. 

827
00:40:29,900 --> 00:40:33,000
You've gotta cultivate a culture
where failure is okay. 

828
00:40:33,100 --> 00:40:36,800
So, like the way that we 
incentivize, our leaders at AWS 

829
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:38,900
is that you have to meet 70% of 
your goals. 

830
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:41,300
If you're meeting a hundred 
percent of your goals, then 

831
00:40:41,300 --> 00:40:43,800
you're way too comfortable. 
You're not learning anything. 

832
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:47,100
And so, if you're meeting 70% of
your goals, then like you're 

833
00:40:47,100 --> 00:40:49,000
really trying, you're really 
stretching yourself. 

834
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:52,000
You're trying to do more than 
you've done in the past and 

835
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,300
you're failing a little bit and 
that's good, right? 

836
00:40:54,300 --> 00:40:55,400
You should be feeling a little 
bit. 

837
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:57,300
That's how you learn. 
I love that idea Jim. 

838
00:40:57,300 --> 00:41:00,100
What about yourself? 
Any tips for how you would, you 

839
00:41:00,100 --> 00:41:03,200
know, support somebody who 
maybe, you know, we come across 

840
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:04,300
every day, right? 
Nobody's an expert in 

841
00:41:04,300 --> 00:41:05,100
everything. 
Right? 

842
00:41:05,100 --> 00:41:06,900
How would we approach that on 
our side? 

843
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:10,800
Yeah, I know, you know, Don't 
know if I have any real Pearls 

844
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:15,500
of Wisdom year but, you know, I 
kind of I love identity and 

845
00:41:15,500 --> 00:41:19,000
access management and I think 
that everybody should. 

846
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:23,100
And I think that, you know, you 
have to be prepared to some 

847
00:41:23,100 --> 00:41:25,800
people. 
This is just a stop along their 

848
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:28,400
path in their career and they're
going to go do some other 

849
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:33,300
things, but I will say I didn't 
access management projects are 

850
00:41:33,300 --> 00:41:36,300
hard. 
You know, I kind of feel like I 

851
00:41:36,308 --> 00:41:39,200
talked about, I am as middleware
a lot. 

852
00:41:39,300 --> 00:41:42,900
And you know what's hard with 
middlewares? 

853
00:41:42,900 --> 00:41:47,700
It is basically technology 
that's connected to other 

854
00:41:47,700 --> 00:41:50,500
systems. 
So so many other systems depend 

855
00:41:50,500 --> 00:41:52,200
on it. 
That makes everything more 

856
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:56,800
complicated from the development
to especially testing and then 

857
00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:00,400
when you go into production, how
you keep, you know, to change 

858
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:04,200
not only within your application
but all the connected system to 

859
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:05,700
make sure that things don't go 
awry. 

860
00:42:05,700 --> 00:42:10,000
And so you know I think that 
it's not for Everybody. 

861
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:16,900
But for folks who like really 
get a charge from a challenge 

862
00:42:16,900 --> 00:42:20,300
like that I think can be a great
place to build a career. 

863
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:23,300
I think it's good. 
I think it's good advice, right?

864
00:42:24,100 --> 00:42:27,500
I think the three of us. 
Our identity lifers, probably at

865
00:42:27,500 --> 00:42:29,800
this point, but I think it's 
important right. 

866
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:32,000
That future see sales, right? 
They may not be an identity 

867
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:34,600
expert, but they should be 
walked coming through at least 

868
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:37,600
some of this on their way there.
And I would certainly encourage 

869
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:40,500
folks to you know, even if 
you're not interested in being 

870
00:42:40,500 --> 00:42:44,900
an identity lifer and you're not
that knots like we are you need 

871
00:42:44,900 --> 00:42:49,700
to know this stuff to be able to
really come up with a adequate 

872
00:42:49,700 --> 00:42:53,400
and effective information. 
Security plan, whatever that is,

873
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:54,900
you have to know what you're 
going to protect. 

874
00:42:55,100 --> 00:42:56,400
Who's got the keys at the 
castle, right? 

875
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:57,700
All that stuff. 
That's all fundamental. 

876
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:00,400
All the marketing terms that 
people have heard of last couple

877
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:02,900
years, zero trust. 
Guess what identities at the 

878
00:43:02,900 --> 00:43:05,600
center that too. 
So you need to know that stuff. 

879
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:08,900
So even if it's not your primary
domain or expertise within 

880
00:43:09,300 --> 00:43:12,400
cybersecurity, for example, our 
information security, you still 

881
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:15,900
need to be Converse it and 
understand it and in those cases

882
00:43:15,900 --> 00:43:17,900
you lean on the experts, right? 
And maybe Jim like your 

883
00:43:17,900 --> 00:43:19,100
question. 
Um, maybe that is where you 

884
00:43:19,107 --> 00:43:23,400
bring in a consultant because 
you know, No, maybe 20% or 40% 

885
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:25,500
and you bring in someone who can
fill in the Gap to get you. 

886
00:43:25,500 --> 00:43:28,400
The rest of the way 100%, you 
know, in in a certain area would

887
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:31,300
rule, maybe I think you answered
a question that I was going to 

888
00:43:31,308 --> 00:43:34,500
ask next to Sarah, which is what
is the biggest challenge that 

889
00:43:34,500 --> 00:43:37,900
you have today about managing? 
I am saying you mentioned just 

890
00:43:37,900 --> 00:43:41,600
how hard it is to actually do my
taxes management projects 

891
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:44,500
successfully because of all the 
upstream and downstream things 

892
00:43:44,500 --> 00:43:48,300
and I'm curious Sarah's is that 
a challenge for you as well? 

893
00:43:48,300 --> 00:43:50,600
Is there is there other sort of 
things that you see is like 

894
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:52,700
these are the big Yogi's that 
are out there that we really 

895
00:43:52,700 --> 00:43:58,700
need to be aware of and manage 
against or for there are a lot 

896
00:43:58,700 --> 00:44:00,900
of them. 
Like I personally think identity

897
00:44:00,900 --> 00:44:04,300
and access management is really 
a, it's a very nascent field. 

898
00:44:04,300 --> 00:44:07,300
Like we are the internet in the 
1970s, right? 

899
00:44:07,300 --> 00:44:12,100
It's going to be so much better 
in 30, 40, 50 years and there 

900
00:44:12,100 --> 00:44:15,800
are so many big rocks that we 
have to move and so like too 

901
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:19,300
many good ideas is one of the 
challenges of like you have to 

902
00:44:19,300 --> 00:44:21,100
say no to a lot of things in 
order. 

903
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:24,900
To be able to prioritize the 
really big things and then the 

904
00:44:24,900 --> 00:44:26,900
other challenges, like okay. 
So you've got somebody new 

905
00:44:26,900 --> 00:44:29,400
coming onto the team, they've 
got to they just completed their

906
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:31,200
CS degree. 
They're really excited, they're 

907
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:35,000
22 years old and you're like, 
yeah, we've got this five-year 

908
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:37,100
project that's going to like 
change this little thing. 

909
00:44:37,100 --> 00:44:39,100
But changing that little thing 
is how we get to this bigger 

910
00:44:39,100 --> 00:44:41,100
thing. 
And like, you definitely want to

911
00:44:41,107 --> 00:44:43,800
spend the next five years of 
your life on this, which is, as 

912
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:46,400
far as they're concerned as 
like, 20% of their entire 

913
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:50,200
lifetime, right? 
Like convincing them of that is 

914
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:51,800
very challenging. 
Thing. 

915
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:55,000
But I think it's possible, 
right? 

916
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:58,300
If you are passionate enough and
you can kind of explain that 

917
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:01,900
this is, this is a really long 
term evolution that we need to 

918
00:45:01,900 --> 00:45:05,200
have in the field toward 
usability towards security and 

919
00:45:05,300 --> 00:45:07,300
it's not going to come easily 
and it's not going to come 

920
00:45:07,300 --> 00:45:09,000
quickly. 
It requires a lot of people 

921
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:13,000
putting in a lot of hard work. 
Rome wasn't built in a day pass 

922
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:15,000
wordless will not be built in 20
years. 

923
00:45:15,500 --> 00:45:18,800
It's like we've been trying to 
10 years are probably another 10

924
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:20,100
years by the time. 
It actually you know comes 

925
00:45:20,100 --> 00:45:24,300
around but But the things that 
are happening now, in this 

926
00:45:24,300 --> 00:45:26,400
identity, spay in the industry 
itself, right? 

927
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:30,300
The Advent of Pat's keys and 
things like the fight Alliance 

928
00:45:30,300 --> 00:45:33,600
and getting Apple, Google and 
Microsoft all to agree on 

929
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:35,700
something, right? 
Those are momentous things. 

930
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:39,200
And it is an interesting concept
to say, Hey, you are solving 

931
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:40,800
problem, you are working on 
problems. 

932
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:44,600
That they, that may not be 
solved in your lifetime, right? 

933
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:46,900
However, you define lifetime, 
whether it's literally, you 

934
00:45:46,900 --> 00:45:51,600
know, you'll be dead before. 
It's done, or your your With a 

935
00:45:51,607 --> 00:45:53,400
particular company, right? 
I'm sure there's people as they 

936
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:56,800
yeah, I started this and, you 
know, it's been organized, five 

937
00:45:56,800 --> 00:45:58,300
years and here. 
So the end game that we're kind 

938
00:45:58,300 --> 00:46:00,500
of working toward and then they 
decide to move on and work on 

939
00:46:00,500 --> 00:46:03,800
something else. 
That is a very different 

940
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:06,900
mindset. 
I think to have, and that sounds

941
00:46:06,900 --> 00:46:10,400
challenging to me, especially 
with some stuff AWS works on 

942
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:13,700
right. 
These are huge, big problems. 

943
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:16,000
I don't remember the exact stats
at the last time we chatted. 

944
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:18,300
It was you get like, a 
ridiculous number of offend 

945
00:46:18,300 --> 00:46:21,100
occasion calls per second or per
minute or whatever it was right?

946
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:23,600
Right. 
I don't think normal Enterprises

947
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:27,600
deal with that level of scale, 
and you're working on the 

948
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:30,700
hardest problems and identity. 
And I would imagine that is 

949
00:46:30,700 --> 00:46:33,800
reflected in, you know, some of 
the personality of the work that

950
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:36,700
gets done for your team. 
Am I right on that or my 

951
00:46:36,700 --> 00:46:38,800
thinking about differently? 
Oh, absolutely. 

952
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:43,400
Like in in AWS identity as a 
whole we authenticate and 

953
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:49,500
authorize over 500 million API 
calls every second and that was 

954
00:46:49,500 --> 00:46:52,700
as of last year. 
You can see how much our revenue

955
00:46:52,700 --> 00:46:55,100
is growing. 
Even in a recession here you can

956
00:46:55,100 --> 00:46:58,700
kind of imagine how much our 
scale is growing in terms of 

957
00:46:58,700 --> 00:47:02,800
number of requests. 
And so the the amount of work 

958
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:08,200
that has to be done just to keep
things, smoothly running is huge

959
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:11,400
and then on top of that to 
really revolutionize the field 

960
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:14,500
and say like and we need to 
rebuild this whole thing from 

961
00:47:14,500 --> 00:47:18,500
scratch and figure out how to do
it better faster, more secure. 

962
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:23,400
Like, that's all big rocks that 
need to, that need to move and 

963
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:27,400
need a lot of passionate people.
500 million that is I don't 

964
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:29,200
Ludacris as I'm just gonna leave
that there. 

965
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:31,000
I don't think I can. 
I can follow up on that one at 

966
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:33,700
all a couple. 
Follow-up questions here is just

967
00:47:33,700 --> 00:47:35,500
kind of the team aspect. 
No, we don't kind of running a 

968
00:47:35,508 --> 00:47:37,900
bit long and appreciate the time
you spent with us. 

969
00:47:38,500 --> 00:47:42,800
How was this shift going from in
person to remote you and I were 

970
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:45,900
kind of talking the other day 
about sort of this transition 

971
00:47:45,900 --> 00:47:49,400
and sounds to me like you guys 
handle it better than most but I

972
00:47:49,408 --> 00:47:51,700
think that's part of the culture
and I want you to explain that 

973
00:47:51,700 --> 00:47:54,100
because I think this is 
something that I think is a 

974
00:47:54,100 --> 00:47:56,700
lesson that a lot of people can 
probably learn in the identity 

975
00:47:56,700 --> 00:47:59,800
space and managing identity 
teams of how you can maybe 

976
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:02,100
replicate this. 
Yeah, one of the things that 

977
00:48:02,100 --> 00:48:06,100
Amazon learned in early days, 
was that it's really easy to 

978
00:48:06,100 --> 00:48:09,900
paper over sloppy thinking with 
PowerPoint. 

979
00:48:09,900 --> 00:48:13,300
And one of the ways that you can
combat that is by all being in 

980
00:48:13,300 --> 00:48:15,600
the office together, right? 
And you're sort of batting ideas

981
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:17,600
around and you're saying oh 
yeah, no I didn't think about 

982
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:18,900
that edge case, I didn't think 
about that. 

983
00:48:19,300 --> 00:48:21,400
This is actually a terrible 
idea, right? 

984
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:24,400
But when your remote and you 
just have PowerPoint, it's easy 

985
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:26,400
for those terrible ideas to kind
of slip through. 

986
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:29,800
And so we got rid of PowerPoint,
all together internally, we 

987
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:31,700
still use it externally. 
We use it for training stuff 

988
00:48:31,700 --> 00:48:33,000
like that. 
But when we have an internal 

989
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:37,200
idea, a product design, an 
investment proposal, we always 

990
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:39,000
write it down. 
And so we have this very 

991
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:42,100
document heavy culture, everyone
here is a very experienced 

992
00:48:42,100 --> 00:48:45,300
writer, and so when you go into 
an Amazon meeting, it's actually

993
00:48:45,300 --> 00:48:48,800
silent for the first 20 to 30 
minutes while everyone reads 

994
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:52,300
through the Fire document. 
So there's no charismatic 

995
00:48:52,300 --> 00:48:56,300
presenter people with more 
Charisma aren't more likely to 

996
00:48:56,308 --> 00:48:58,500
get their ideas appearance and 
people with less Charisma. 

997
00:48:58,500 --> 00:49:00,300
You don't have people 
interrupting in the middle to 

998
00:49:00,300 --> 00:49:02,400
ask questions. 
Everyone reads the entire 

999
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:04,300
document, and then everyone is 
aligned. 

1000
00:49:04,300 --> 00:49:06,700
Unlike here is what we are 
discussing and you have all the 

1001
00:49:06,700 --> 00:49:08,100
information. 
And now let's have a 

1002
00:49:08,100 --> 00:49:11,600
conversation about it. 
And so, the transition to, to 

1003
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:14,700
remote culture was really fairly
straightforward for us because 

1004
00:49:14,700 --> 00:49:18,100
we have always had this culture 
of you need to write down your 

1005
00:49:18,100 --> 00:49:21,100
complete thoughts, and As in all
of the edge cases, and all of 

1006
00:49:21,100 --> 00:49:25,300
the things that might go wrong 
as part of how you formulate 

1007
00:49:25,300 --> 00:49:28,200
your ideas. 
And so that made it very easy 

1008
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:31,400
for us to switch to remote. 
So interesting to me because 

1009
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:35,400
that culture that you just 
described in a gave me a little 

1010
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:39,600
window insight and I'm wondering
if that's Amazon or Silicon 

1011
00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:45,500
Valley culture, you know, kind 
of tech company culture, but I'm

1012
00:49:45,500 --> 00:49:49,400
also thinking that for some 
people and probably for me, Me 

1013
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:53,200
like I might melt down in an 
environment like that, like it's

1014
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:55,600
so different from everywhere. 
I've worked. 

1015
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:59,500
Have you run into people who 
just kind of meltdown or do 

1016
00:49:59,500 --> 00:50:03,800
people kind of even if they're, 
you know, coming from like a 

1017
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:09,900
banking culture, they come in 
and they I guess I either fit in

1018
00:50:09,900 --> 00:50:11,800
or a Fallout right one or the 
other. 

1019
00:50:12,500 --> 00:50:14,900
There's a little bit of that we 
try to select for it in the 

1020
00:50:14,900 --> 00:50:16,400
interview process. 
We actually make you do a 

1021
00:50:16,408 --> 00:50:19,200
writing sample as part of your 
interview so that we know that 

1022
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:22,800
Can you can communicate your 
ideas in writing competently? 

1023
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:26,000
But I would say, actually the 
people we see falling over the 

1024
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:28,300
most is not due to the document 
culture. 

1025
00:50:28,300 --> 00:50:32,300
It's due to the ownership 
culture that we push ownership 

1026
00:50:32,300 --> 00:50:36,300
very far down and the org chart 
so that each individual team is 

1027
00:50:36,300 --> 00:50:38,500
making decisions about. 
Here's what we're going to build

1028
00:50:38,500 --> 00:50:39,500
next. 
Here's how we're going to do 

1029
00:50:39,500 --> 00:50:42,200
project management. 
Here's how we're going to get 

1030
00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:43,600
this thing out. 
Here's the order, we're going to

1031
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:47,400
release things in and those 
decisions are vetted with upper 

1032
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:50,400
management but they're not. 
And by upper management, no one 

1033
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:53,900
has told what to do and so we 
have when we have director-level

1034
00:50:53,900 --> 00:50:56,900
people come in from other 
companies and other cultures and

1035
00:50:56,900 --> 00:50:59,900
try to like tell the team's, 
okay, we're going to work on 

1036
00:50:59,900 --> 00:51:00,800
this, we're going to work on 
this. 

1037
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:03,700
These are your goals like teams 
are like this adorable. 

1038
00:51:03,700 --> 00:51:05,100
That's not how we do things 
here. 

1039
00:51:05,100 --> 00:51:07,500
Like we're the Smart Ones, we 
will tell you what we're going 

1040
00:51:07,500 --> 00:51:10,000
to build next. 
And you can tell us like, if 

1041
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:12,300
it's a bad idea and why we can 
discuss it. 

1042
00:51:12,300 --> 00:51:15,500
But like, there's no top down 
planning. 

1043
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:17,600
Yeah, yeah. 
So interesting. 

1044
00:51:18,100 --> 00:51:21,000
I wonder you met, you Tension 
project management. 

1045
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:24,300
You know, I'm probably going to 
sound like a grumpy old man, 

1046
00:51:24,300 --> 00:51:28,500
which I do, you know, a lot of 
times anyway, but I'm like a 

1047
00:51:28,500 --> 00:51:31,700
waterfall guy. 
Like, you know, I just feel more

1048
00:51:31,700 --> 00:51:34,400
comfortable when I have the plan
all laid out. 

1049
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:38,500
And I know step by step and 
then, you know, made career for 

1050
00:51:38,500 --> 00:51:42,900
me agile. 
Really gate gain steam scrum. 

1051
00:51:43,100 --> 00:51:48,200
And actually, I actually have a 
lot of respect for agile 

1052
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:50,900
methodology. 
She when it doesn't just become 

1053
00:51:50,900 --> 00:51:55,100
an excuse to do without plan, 
I'm on my soapbox here, but I do

1054
00:51:55,100 --> 00:51:58,200
have a question. 
So, the question is, like, where

1055
00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:01,900
do you guys fit on the Spectrum,
as waterfalls agile. 

1056
00:52:02,100 --> 00:52:06,400
This is something in between, we
actually let each team decided. 

1057
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:09,500
So we have a concept of what we 
call a to Pizza team, which 

1058
00:52:09,500 --> 00:52:11,300
means that a team that's working
on something. 

1059
00:52:11,300 --> 00:52:13,600
Should be no larger than a team 
that could be fed with two 

1060
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:17,300
pizzas and so each of those 
teams gets to decide for 

1061
00:52:17,300 --> 00:52:20,800
themselves, okay, we want to do 
We want to do scrum, we actually

1062
00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:22,800
want to do waterfall, like 
that's what makes sense for our 

1063
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:26,100
team for this project. 
So there's no top down 

1064
00:52:26,100 --> 00:52:28,600
dictatorship about this is how 
you do project management. 

1065
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:30,800
It's up to each team to say, you
know, this is what we have 

1066
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:32,400
experience with. 
This is what's working for this 

1067
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:34,100
project, this is what working 
for this team. 

1068
00:52:34,100 --> 00:52:36,500
We're going to do a combination 
that the ink is whatever it is. 

1069
00:52:36,900 --> 00:52:39,900
It's totally up to that. 
And it's, it's a little chaotic.

1070
00:52:39,900 --> 00:52:42,500
It's a little crazy, but it 
works for us at school. 

1071
00:52:42,500 --> 00:52:46,000
Now, if you had Jeff and I on 
the team, I think you'd have a 

1072
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:47,800
maximum of four people on a 
team. 

1073
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:55,000
Half a pizza for each. 
Each what size pizza we talking 

1074
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:57,100
about here and you get the most 
important thing, right? 

1075
00:52:57,200 --> 00:52:58,600
Exactly. 
Exactly. 

1076
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:04,600
I did also just was wondering 
little bit of the inside 

1077
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:09,400
baseball for Amazon or you know 
at AWS. 

1078
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:12,300
Do you guys have a lot of shared
services? 

1079
00:53:12,300 --> 00:53:16,300
Sounds like a lot is team 
Centric but I'm wondering do you

1080
00:53:16,300 --> 00:53:18,800
have sir? 
You know shared services like 

1081
00:53:19,300 --> 00:53:23,100
You know, testing center of 
excellence change, Advisory 

1082
00:53:23,100 --> 00:53:26,500
Board service desk. 
Things like that that you 

1083
00:53:26,700 --> 00:53:30,500
incorporated into your projects 
or do you guys try to be 

1084
00:53:30,500 --> 00:53:32,400
self-contained for most of those
things? 

1085
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:35,400
It depends we have. 
We had a lot of things that are 

1086
00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:36,800
distributed. 
We have some things that are 

1087
00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:39,500
centralized, one of the ways 
that we try to make those 

1088
00:53:39,500 --> 00:53:42,800
decisions. 
As a product, is if we have 

1089
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:46,900
someone on the team, are they 
going to have people to learn 

1090
00:53:46,900 --> 00:53:48,400
from? 
Are they going to have a ladder 

1091
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:51,300
up in their career, right? 
If we only need one usability 

1092
00:53:51,300 --> 00:53:54,700
person on that team, who's that 
person going to learn from 

1093
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:56,100
right? 
How are they going to get 

1094
00:53:56,100 --> 00:53:58,400
promoted where they gonna go 
versus? 

1095
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:00,800
If we centralize all the 
usability people and we say okay

1096
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:04,300
you guys are all one team. 
You work for all the teams and 

1097
00:54:04,300 --> 00:54:08,000
you do all this distributed work
but you get to work together 

1098
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:11,300
with other people who are doing 
what you're doing, like that's 

1099
00:54:11,500 --> 00:54:15,800
that makes more sense for us. 
So it really depends how many 

1100
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:18,000
people you have. 
And whether they have people, 

1101
00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:22,200
they can learn from All right, 
we've been running long and I 

1102
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:25,200
think, I think it's cool how 
you've kind of incorporate this 

1103
00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:27,900
into sort of, like, your plan. 
So I want to start to wrap 

1104
00:54:27,900 --> 00:54:30,300
things up. 
We always end on a lighter note,

1105
00:54:30,300 --> 00:54:33,200
and we came up with a couple 
actually Sarah. 

1106
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:35,600
So we're talking about this 
beforehand, kind of how we're 

1107
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:39,100
going to work through things. 
And the idea here is I would 

1108
00:54:39,100 --> 00:54:42,600
like you as of Wednesday, 
February 8th, which is one 

1109
00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:44,200
recording, this this will go 
live. 

1110
00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:49,100
February 13th, I think on Monday
at some point described. 

1111
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:55,100
Your current state using either 
emojis or meme or GIF or 

1112
00:54:55,100 --> 00:54:57,700
something like that. 
Now remember this is an audio 

1113
00:54:57,700 --> 00:55:00,700
podcast so you have to be as 
verbally descriptive as 

1114
00:55:00,700 --> 00:55:03,700
possible, so people will be able
to follow along, okay, so 

1115
00:55:03,700 --> 00:55:08,700
there's a gif of Kermit the Frog
and he's like, waving his hands 

1116
00:55:08,700 --> 00:55:12,500
in the air and screaming because
he's so excited and like that's 

1117
00:55:12,500 --> 00:55:15,300
how my life is right now. 
Like everything is chaos but 

1118
00:55:15,300 --> 00:55:19,100
it's super exciting. 
Right there is so much going on.

1119
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:22,700
Is going to be amazing. 
That it will all come together 

1120
00:55:22,700 --> 00:55:25,800
and it will be great. 
That's a really good one because

1121
00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:27,300
I immediately knew what you were
talking about. 

1122
00:55:27,300 --> 00:55:31,200
Ha, ha, ha ha ha got along at 
home gym, about yourself. 

1123
00:55:31,200 --> 00:55:34,100
How you going to describe your 
current state using an emoji? 

1124
00:55:34,100 --> 00:55:38,400
A meme, a gift, something like 
that, c-czar's day Optimist. 

1125
00:55:38,500 --> 00:55:42,600
And like you said, let's start 
the podcast off on a good note. 

1126
00:55:42,900 --> 00:55:45,300
I'm looking at it. 
Like I'm like, yeah, super busy,

1127
00:55:45,300 --> 00:55:47,400
too, but I'm not doing a happy 
dance. 

1128
00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:50,500
So my current Estate would be 
the meme. 

1129
00:55:50,700 --> 00:55:54,900
Ain't nobody got time for that. 
I just feel like, you know, it's

1130
00:55:54,900 --> 00:55:57,900
like people want to get me 
involved with doing this. 

1131
00:55:57,900 --> 00:56:02,100
That and the other thing I'm 
like my plates already full. 

1132
00:56:02,100 --> 00:56:06,000
It's overflowing but so yeah. 
And then you push it over to me 

1133
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:09,200
and then I take care of it. 
That's what I, you ain't got no 

1134
00:56:09,200 --> 00:56:11,600
time for that either. 
I'm here to help out as much as 

1135
00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:14,400
I can. 
I like that one, too. 

1136
00:56:14,700 --> 00:56:18,000
You know, I was thinking about 
one earlier and right now, I'm 

1137
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:21,300
going to change it on the 
Because I feel like I'm very 

1138
00:56:21,300 --> 00:56:23,600
fortunate as we've been talking 
about identity teams, I work 

1139
00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:28,300
with some really good smart 
people and the the GIF that I'm 

1140
00:56:28,300 --> 00:56:30,900
going to go with is it's gift, 
not GIF. 

1141
00:56:31,100 --> 00:56:33,300
So, don't even come at me, bro. 
With anything. 

1142
00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:38,900
Any of that, that that 
pronunciation is from the movie 

1143
00:56:38,900 --> 00:56:41,700
Analyze. 
This, where Robert De Niro is 

1144
00:56:41,700 --> 00:56:45,500
talking to Billy Crystal and 
he's like, you, you are good, 

1145
00:56:45,500 --> 00:56:48,100
you got a gift, my friend. 
And he's like pointing as I 

1146
00:56:48,107 --> 00:56:49,000
know. 
Yes you are. 

1147
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:51,100
Are your good. 
And I think about this the 

1148
00:56:51,100 --> 00:56:56,700
really smart people I work with 
then Trini Ross, Robert Selena 

1149
00:56:56,700 --> 00:57:00,400
yourself, Jim. 
You know, it's people like that 

1150
00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:02,900
that really kind of get the real
work done in the team, and I 

1151
00:57:02,908 --> 00:57:04,500
feel very fortunate to be kind 
of surround with that. 

1152
00:57:04,500 --> 00:57:07,700
So I use that gift today with 
someone who is helping me with a

1153
00:57:07,707 --> 00:57:11,000
contract. 
So you know, that was my way of 

1154
00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:15,400
communicating, I feel like I'm I
am meme and GIF, first English, 

1155
00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:18,800
Second Language as the way I 
approach it, but that's how I 

1156
00:57:18,808 --> 00:57:21,200
feel. 
Now is I just feel like there's 

1157
00:57:21,200 --> 00:57:24,500
so many good people and try to 
give them recognition wherever I

1158
00:57:24,508 --> 00:57:27,100
can. 
Okay, Sarah. 

1159
00:57:27,100 --> 00:57:29,900
I got one more question for you.
I was trolling your Twitter 

1160
00:57:29,900 --> 00:57:34,600
account and I think it was 
earlier this year, you mentioned

1161
00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:38,700
something about a chaos button 
and I am fascinated to find out 

1162
00:57:38,700 --> 00:57:41,300
how this works, tell me about 
the chaos button. 

1163
00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:46,000
So somebody posted a picture of 
a microwave where like the 

1164
00:57:46,700 --> 00:57:49,400
controls for the microwave had 
been translated into honorable 

1165
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:55,300
English and the My Grave has a 
chaos button on it and so we 

1166
00:57:55,300 --> 00:57:59,500
were kind of speculating about 
like what is that mean like can 

1167
00:57:59,500 --> 00:58:01,500
we just put a chaos button and 
everything? 

1168
00:58:02,100 --> 00:58:05,900
And so my new goal is like every
product that I work on is now 

1169
00:58:05,900 --> 00:58:08,200
going to have a chaos button and
it turns out that it was 

1170
00:58:08,200 --> 00:58:11,500
actually defrost because in 
defrost like all of the 

1171
00:58:11,600 --> 00:58:15,300
microwave raised go to different
places in the food so that it 

1172
00:58:15,300 --> 00:58:19,000
can get uniformly, warmer 
something like there is a reason

1173
00:58:19,100 --> 00:58:22,400
Hidden behind the chaos. 
But now I'm just like, when you 

1174
00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:24,700
want to set your password policy
and Amazon Incognito it's going 

1175
00:58:24,700 --> 00:58:26,400
to be like do you want to 
require uppercase? 

1176
00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:27,700
Do you want to require lower 
case? 

1177
00:58:27,700 --> 00:58:30,100
Do you want to require numbers 
or do you just want chaos? 

1178
00:58:32,700 --> 00:58:35,000
It's everything. 
I hope more identity vendors do.

1179
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:37,900
This is like a Easter egg within
like their settings somewhere. 

1180
00:58:37,900 --> 00:58:41,800
It's like yeah, it's a radio 
button inside of I'll sail point

1181
00:58:41,800 --> 00:58:45,100
or saving, or OCTA, or Cognito, 
or maybe is like click this 

1182
00:58:45,100 --> 00:58:47,200
button, and it totally scrambles
all your settings and your 

1183
00:58:47,200 --> 00:58:50,100
tenant or something like that. 
Exactly. 

1184
00:58:50,900 --> 00:58:53,300
I love the idea. 
I think we need to find more 

1185
00:58:53,300 --> 00:58:55,000
ways to incorporate the chaos 
button. 

1186
00:58:55,500 --> 00:58:58,400
So I am I'm hopeful that we'll 
see it somewhere and maybe some 

1187
00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:01,000
documentation. 
I don't know if it's no good, 

1188
00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:04,700
making him say WS, documentation
any point, but if you spot it, I

1189
00:59:04,700 --> 00:59:05,500
guess what? 
Sarah. 

1190
00:59:05,500 --> 00:59:07,200
No. 
That's why is I'm guessing. 

1191
00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:09,800
All right. 
Why don't we go ahead and wrap 

1192
00:59:09,800 --> 00:59:11,900
it up for their Sarah. 
You're always so generous with 

1193
00:59:11,900 --> 00:59:14,200
your time and you are such a 
good speaker. 

1194
00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:17,800
I always enjoy, you know, seeing
you present and listening to 

1195
00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:21,300
your stories that you tell on 
Agent stuff like that, so I'm 

1196
00:59:21,300 --> 00:59:24,100
glad that you keep doing it. 
Despite people saying not to do 

1197
00:59:24,100 --> 00:59:26,100
it, those people are crazy, keep
doing it because I think there's

1198
00:59:26,100 --> 00:59:28,600
a lot of value that you had out 
there to just the identity 

1199
00:59:28,600 --> 00:59:31,500
ecosphere, especially the ID Pro
stuff, we got to get more people

1200
00:59:31,500 --> 00:59:33,500
involved with that. 
It's such a great resource, 

1201
00:59:33,800 --> 00:59:37,600
we'll have a link on our show 
notes, ID Pro dot-org is I think

1202
00:59:37,600 --> 00:59:40,500
it still $150 for a normal 
membership? 

1203
00:59:40,700 --> 00:59:41,900
It is on the price. 
I don't know. 

1204
00:59:42,700 --> 00:59:45,500
Okay. 
Like, hands down, like the best 

1205
00:59:45,500 --> 00:59:49,000
thing you can buy for yourself, 
or ask your company, too. 

1206
00:59:49,100 --> 00:59:51,300
Expense it. 
It's a total no-brainer just 

1207
00:59:51,300 --> 00:59:54,000
just for the slack Channel alone
and having access to all those 

1208
00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:56,700
people and stuff like that. 
So Shameless plug we don't do 

1209
00:59:56,700 --> 00:59:59,600
commercials but we are big 
supporters of what Ida Pro does.

1210
00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:02,500
So so we'll have that in our 
show notes. 

1211
01:00:02,900 --> 01:00:04,600
We'll also have a link to Sarah.
Do you want to ask her 

1212
01:00:04,600 --> 01:00:08,100
questions? 
Chaos button, advice on teams? 

1213
01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:11,000
I don't know, whatever Cognito I
guess, maybe. 

1214
01:00:11,200 --> 01:00:13,300
Whatever might be, we'll have a 
link to her on LinkedIn that 

1215
01:00:13,500 --> 01:00:17,400
people can reach out and connect
with, as well as Jim and myself.

1216
01:00:17,600 --> 01:00:23,000
We are on Web, idac. 
Podcast.com we're on Twitter at.

1217
01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:28,600
Idac podcast, we're on Mastodon,
which is at idea podcast at 

1218
01:00:28,600 --> 01:00:31,900
infosec that exchange S8 every 
week, but I hate the way Macedon

1219
01:00:31,900 --> 01:00:34,100
does because they're naming 
structure. 

1220
01:00:34,100 --> 01:00:38,700
It's not easy to use and needs 
to get better and I am very 

1221
01:00:38,700 --> 01:00:40,900
happy. 
Also, again, plug for the 

1222
01:00:40,900 --> 01:00:44,400
Gartner stuff that we're working
on, send us your hard questions,

1223
01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:46,700
and if you don't want your 
identity known on the post that 

1224
01:00:46,700 --> 01:00:48,800
Jim put out there, sent it to 
me. 

1225
01:00:49,100 --> 01:00:52,100
I will, you know, will invoke 
like the journalist rule right 

1226
01:00:52,100 --> 01:00:55,900
of not not doing the sources, 
Jim will send, you will get your

1227
01:00:55,908 --> 01:00:58,700
address and send you a sticker 
and, you know, stuff like that. 

1228
01:00:58,700 --> 01:01:00,900
So we hope to see people at the 
Gartner. 

1229
01:01:00,900 --> 01:01:04,100
I am Summit in March, a lot of 
friendly faces and I'm we're 

1230
01:01:04,100 --> 01:01:06,000
looking for hard questions, so 
don't be shy. 

1231
01:01:06,300 --> 01:01:09,100
Let's, let's really put it to 
them and see what we can get 

1232
01:01:09,100 --> 01:01:11,700
away with, as we work through, 
you know, that process. 

1233
01:01:11,700 --> 01:01:15,000
So, Sarah, any final words of 
wisdom before we let you go. 

1234
01:01:15,800 --> 01:01:20,000
No, really great to talk to you 
guys on the episode 200, 200 

1235
01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:21,100
next. 
I have no idea where we're going

1236
01:01:21,100 --> 01:01:23,100
to do, we will figure it out 
like we always do. 

1237
01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:26,900
All right, thanks, everybody for
listening, we'll talk with 

1238
01:01:26,900 --> 01:01:33,800
everyone in the next one. 
Thanks for listening to a 

1239
01:01:33,800 --> 01:01:35,700
podcast. 
If you like what you heard, 

1240
01:01:35,700 --> 01:01:38,900
don't forget to subscribe and 
visit us on the web and identity

1241
01:01:38,900 --> 01:01:39,800
at the center.com.