1 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:10,440 This is identity at the center. If it has anything to do with 2 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:17,960 IAM, this is the go to podcast now your hosts Jim McDonald and 3 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:23,440 Jeff Stedman. Welcome to the Identity at the 4 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:25,280 Center podcast. I'm Jeff and that's Jim. 5 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:27,040 Hey, Jim. Hey, Jeff, how are you? 6 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:30,480 Not so bad yourself. I'm doing great man, but I'm 7 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:34,440 wanting just like I'm sure the rest of the identity at the 8 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:38,560 center community is wondering, can we get an update on the 9 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:41,040 Apple Vision Pro? Because for the rest of us 10 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:43,680 regular folk we can't afford such things. 11 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:48,000 But you, my friend, have one. I do. 12 00:00:49,160 --> 00:00:55,200 It arrived yesterday, so I've had it for roughly 24 hours, of 13 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:58,120 which most of it has been either working or sleeping. 14 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:00,240 But I have had a couple of hours now to play around with it and 15 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:02,120 my wife too, which is a very important part of this. 16 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:06,280 There is a lot to cover here. I don't know if we have time for 17 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:10,800 it, but I will say this, it is very expensive and it is very 18 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:13,680 impressive. The hard part about it is it's 19 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:17,040 very difficult to demo and share with someone else. 20 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:21,880 It is a very personal device, so anytime like my wife and I were 21 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:24,280 trading off last night, kind of showing different things and how 22 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:27,440 it worked, you have to do an eye calibration for the eye 23 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:30,440 tracking. You have to turn off pass 24 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:33,920 passwords and pins, right, and all that stuff so you can easily 25 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:36,520 swap heads right there in the mask. 26 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:40,280 So it is very difficult to share with other people. 27 00:01:40,320 --> 00:01:46,760 But my gosh man, this thing is the best ARVVR experience I've 28 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:48,920 ever tried. And it's not even close to 29 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:53,480 anything else that I've seen. For me, the killer feature has 30 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:57,000 been actually the MacBook pairing and using it as like a a 31 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:01,320 larger screen. So I was actually playing around 32 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:05,280 with it and like trying to edit the podcast on the Apple Pro in 33 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:07,640 like a giant mirrored, not mirrored, but it's like 34 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:08,960 basically like a virtual display. 35 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:13,400 And it was, it's it's pretty useful, Definitely first Gen. 36 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:16,080 it's heavy, it's expensive. Do I recommend it? 37 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:19,800 For most people, no. But it is extremely cool and I 38 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:21,640 am really excited about where this is going. 39 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:25,840 And this is coming from a guy you've had several VR headsets. 40 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:29,640 So I mean, like you're not just like some newbie who's impressed 41 00:02:29,640 --> 00:02:33,720 by whatever fell off the shelf. No. 42 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:35,840 And it actually came in earlier than I thought it would. 43 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,240 So, you know, a couple weeks earlier than I thought it would 44 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:40,760 be. And it's pretty cool. 45 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:43,880 I mean, there's some pretty neat features, some cool apps. 46 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:45,320 It's just kind of the very beginning of it. 47 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:48,560 It's crazy expensive. It's really hard to recommend, 48 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:52,560 but for most people. But if you get the chance, go to 49 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:54,920 a store, try it out. If you know someone, try it out. 50 00:02:55,520 --> 00:03:00,840 I I I think you would be blown away with how good it already 51 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:03,360 is. And if this is the worst that 52 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:05,480 it's going to be, I can only imagine the future. 53 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:09,240 I mean, it's going to get so much better after, you know, 234 54 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:10,600 iterations. The phone was like this, the 55 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:12,240 iPad was like this, the watch was like that. 56 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:16,200 I mean, it's it's crazy good. I am still torn at this moment 57 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:17,560 whether or not I'm going to keep it. 58 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:20,680 I'm definitely going to take advantage of the 14 days for the 59 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:23,960 return. But it's it's pretty cool, man. 60 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:28,680 I'm digging it. So you're so happy and there's 61 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:33,280 only two days after you're crying in your your Coke 0, 62 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:35,800 right? I mean, you seem pretty 63 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:40,320 recovered over that. Not only did your team that 64 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:44,120 you've always loved lose the Super Bowl, but you went public 65 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:49,280 on the Identity Center podcast and predicted a win and told 66 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:54,680 Todd and me and Steve that we were all wrong thinking the 67 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:57,760 Chiefs would come back. And I did say the Chiefs would 68 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:00,720 come back because of Patrick Mahomes and yeah. 69 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:02,760 That's not going on a limb. It's always going to be Patrick 70 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:05,920 Mahomes. It wasn't really going on a 71 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:09,240 limb, that's true. Well, This is why you don't tune 72 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:11,200 into identity at the Center for football picks. 73 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:14,320 I am over 2 on the season. I picked the Bears opening, 74 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:16,760 opening week. I drank the Bears kool-aid. 75 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:19,320 I immediately threw up the Bears kool-aid after that first game, 76 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:20,519 he said. Nope, they still suck. 77 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:24,480 Forget it. The Niners I am disappointed in. 78 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:28,240 I feel like they had so many chances to win that game and 79 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:31,800 they literally fumble it away twice, three times. 80 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:36,160 You cannot give Patrick Mahomes and that offense that many 81 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:37,360 tries. You get it. 82 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:39,600 And they held them the four field goals which is crazy. 83 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:42,880 They've lost one of their best offenders by tearing his 84 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:46,920 Achilles, just jumping, getting ready to go on to the field, non 85 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:49,240 contact injury. It was just it was 86 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:52,240 disappointing. I had some questionable 87 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:54,960 coaching. I think a couple of overthrown 88 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:56,680 passes that could have been touchdowns. 89 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:00,560 It's just I feel like. I feel like the 49ers lost it. 90 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:02,920 Not to take away from the from the Chiefs because they 91 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:06,440 definitely, you know, deserve the win, but I feel like it was 92 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:08,200 not the greatest outing for the Niners. 93 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:13,440 Yeah, well, the my biggest take away was first, the hilarious 94 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:15,360 commercials. I'd love to know what your 95 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:17,240 favorite commercial was. Mine was. 96 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:20,800 I don't think a lot of people pick this one out, but it was 97 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:24,400 like Chris Pratt doing a Pringles can commercial, right. 98 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:28,360 And young girl who's working on the counters, like, you know, 99 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:30,920 you look like the guy on the Pringles can, right? 100 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:32,880 And then everybody starts saying it to him. 101 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:35,800 And what I thought was the most hilarious part of the commercial 102 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:41,160 was he does Face ID on his iPhone, but it's pointed at the 103 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:47,600 Pringles can that lets a man. So I don't know, I I for for me, 104 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:49,080 I was just cracking up over that. 105 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:52,800 But I also thought to myself, man, Las Vegas is a really cool 106 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:54,880 city. It keeps getting cooler every 107 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:59,480 year and now they've got that sphere with it looks like a 108 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:03,120 marble rolling around. I mean mind blowing stuff. 109 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:06,560 And you can see it from, you know, from the sky as you fly 110 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:07,600 in. So I was just there a couple 111 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:11,360 weeks ago and I'm flying in at night and there's this giant 112 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:16,640 yellow :) spinning as we're, you know, landing it at the airport 113 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:18,640 there. And it's, it's very cool. 114 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:23,400 I think what I'm most impressed by is how high quality the 115 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:28,280 images It's very high, you know, dynamic resolution, right? 116 00:06:28,280 --> 00:06:30,160 Things like that. But also the frame rate is 117 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:32,680 crazy. It looks super smooth, super 118 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:36,360 fluid, not janky at all. It's it's really cool. 119 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:40,840 I'm looking forward to someday maybe getting closer to it and 120 00:06:40,840 --> 00:06:44,720 maybe even getting inside to see a show and what that looks like. 121 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:47,840 Well, you know, I mean, we're going to be back there in Las 122 00:06:47,840 --> 00:06:51,880 Vegas for Identiverse. We should have the discount code 123 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:54,920 on the next episode. I'm really going out on a limb 124 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:58,760 with that because I know we don't have it in hand in the. 125 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:00,640 Next few episodes. How about that? 126 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:03,760 There you go. We'll have the discount code. 127 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:07,640 So anybody who's planning on registering, come on back to 128 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:10,160 your favorite podcast. You should have. 129 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:13,440 We should have that code here very shortly. 130 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:16,680 Should be the best code available publicly. 131 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:23,680 So we got that conference coming up other other conferences on 132 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,240 the agenda. Identity week which is in 133 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:30,000 Europe, America and Asia. So we have a discount code for 134 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:33,560 that as well and it works for any of the locations. 135 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:37,640 So the Europe one Identity Week Europe is in Amsterdam, June 136 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:40,760 11th through 12th. Identity Week America, which you 137 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:44,240 and I will be at, is in Washington DC September 11th and 138 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:47,400 12th. And Identity Week Asia is in 139 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:49,840 Singapore, October 22nd and 23rd. 140 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:53,160 I think if anybody wants to pick up our airfare first class, of 141 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:56,800 course we'd be more than happy to be there as well. 142 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:01,600 Again, IDAC 30 gets you 30% off registration. 143 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:03,240 Yeah. And we'll have the link in our 144 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:04,640 show notes to make it easy for people to find. 145 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:06,040 But yeah, we'll be at the America One. 146 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:09,120 And yeah, if you want to fly us out to Amsterdam or Singapore, 147 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:12,200 I've never been to either. I have a bag and I will travel. 148 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:13,800 Maybe. Maybe we'll bring my Apple 149 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:16,200 Vision Pro if I still have it. At that point, who knows? 150 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:19,080 It would offer. It is. 151 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:21,840 I I don't know. I I can't wear it in public, 152 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:23,760 man. I just I'm not that guy yet. 153 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:27,200 When I see a a bunch of other people doing it maybe, but not 154 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:30,720 yet. Another cool thing was we saw a 155 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:34,440 recent Apple podcast review and they were commenting about the 156 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:38,520 episode that we did with Ryan Galuzzo from NIST and so I 157 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:42,559 thought that was very cool. So definitely appreciate the 158 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:45,000 folks who take the time to review us on the podcast 159 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:48,200 platforms. It definitely helps us and it 160 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:50,680 you know continues motive us. The other thing is they like the 161 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:53,120 the person like the hockey talk and totally agrees with me. 162 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:55,520 So I'm totally bringing up this review because they agree with 163 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:58,040 me on playoff hockey. So there you go, I'm. 164 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:02,200 Going to guess that it was Ken Myers from GSA who's been a a 165 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:04,760 friend of the show and been on the podcast a few times. 166 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:08,960 And the reason I'm going to guess that is that he put a post 167 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:12,000 on LinkedIn that read very similar to this. 168 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:15,520 So if I got that right, Ken send me a message. 169 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:17,560 If I get it wrong, send me a message too. 170 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:20,480 I'd be OK with that. There's lots of people who think 171 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:24,080 I'm right, so you never know. It could be any number of people 172 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:27,720 out there. So today's main topic, we're 173 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:31,240 going to talk about passkeys. We've got somebody from San 174 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:34,920 Francisco who may have also been crying in his beverage of choice 175 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:37,160 on Sunday. I'm not sure, but I'd like to 176 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:40,440 find out. Why don't you introduce our our? 177 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:45,960 Latest guest Yeah, so we've got Daniel Grube again, Product 178 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:48,960 manager at TikTok. He was with us on stage at 179 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:52,920 Authenticate last year as part of our kind of live keynotes 180 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:57,040 extravaganza, we'll call it. Welcome back to the show, 181 00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:58,960 Daniel. Yeah. 182 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:01,920 Thanks for having me guys. So are you a Niners fan? 183 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:05,240 I have to ask. You know, I was born in San 184 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:12,640 Francisco, so I feel some sort of loyalty, but actually my 185 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:18,400 dad's from Detroit, so he grew up in a Lions household, so he 186 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:23,640 was not too happy with the 49ers knocking out his favorite team. 187 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:26,680 It was supposed to be somewhat of a Cinderella stories for him, 188 00:10:26,680 --> 00:10:29,560 I think after many, many years of just disappointment. 189 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:34,280 So yeah, our our household was sadly watching the Super Bowl. 190 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:37,600 It has been a while, you know. I would not have been upset if 191 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:40,440 Detroit had beat the 49ers. I'm glad they didn't, don't get 192 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:43,560 me wrong. But I feel like it's time. 193 00:10:43,560 --> 00:10:46,320 I think it's been like 40 some years and I feel like they're 194 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:48,760 also a little bit ahead of schedule, which is good because 195 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:50,320 I think the NFC North is up for grabs. 196 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:54,520 But now we're talking NFL. What we want to do is talk about 197 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:58,080 identity and access management. We didn't really get a chance to 198 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:00,520 really get into your background on stage, and we kind of had of 199 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:02,760 a shortened show just based on timing and things like that. 200 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:05,120 So why don't we start fresh in this episode? 201 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:07,960 So tell us a little bit about your background. 202 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:10,240 How did you get into the identity space? 203 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:12,960 Is it something that you chose or did it choose you? 204 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:16,440 Yeah, that's a an interesting question. 205 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:18,840 I think it kind of chose me to be honest. 206 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:24,520 So interestingly enough I I have a technical background but it 207 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:27,280 was mainly applied to social sciences, especially in grad 208 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:31,880 school. I analyzed social networks to 209 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:35,680 look at how they evolved over time and if we could predict the 210 00:11:35,680 --> 00:11:40,120 evolution of social and economic networks to better understand 211 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:43,320 where we think those types of things are going to be going. 212 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:48,840 So a lot of that type of modeling that I did applied 213 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:53,320 really well to social networks and things like that, not only 214 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:55,400 in the real world but obviously online. 215 00:11:56,120 --> 00:12:00,760 I actually also started my career as a private 216 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:03,320 investigator, which was pretty interesting. 217 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:07,560 I think that this set me up very well for understanding identity 218 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:10,160 in a way. I got that job just through a 219 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:12,640 few random languages that I speak. 220 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:16,040 That can be very useful in private investigations, 221 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:20,160 especially for the people who go into that field and the places 222 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:24,800 that they previously worked at. And so for me, I think it was 223 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:27,640 really interesting because a lot of that job was about taking a 224 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:31,400 ton, a ton of information given to you by clients and then 225 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:36,720 having to dissect it, pair it down and tell a story with it. 226 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:39,560 And for me, it was all about figuring out who are these 227 00:12:39,560 --> 00:12:42,320 people, Who are these, you know, where are the, where are they, 228 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:44,080 What are they doing? Why did they do it? 229 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:48,640 Understanding identity and then motivation from that and telling 230 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:51,200 a story. And for me, I think that was 231 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:54,640 very, very interesting. And I did that, you know, in a 232 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:57,120 lot of languages, with a lot of people from a lot of countries. 233 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:01,640 It was super cool and really led me nicely into using kind of my 234 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:04,280 technical background, my investigations background into 235 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:10,040 employing this in a more product focused way where I can actually 236 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:14,400 build things that are, you know, using identity for security and 237 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:16,440 and understanding the intersection between the two. 238 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:20,640 And so you work on, I guess I interested you as a product 239 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:23,400 manager at TikTok, you got to help me understand what does 240 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:25,680 that even mean? Like what would you say you do 241 00:13:25,680 --> 00:13:27,880 here? Yeah, of course. 242 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:30,560 I think being a product manager at TikTok is similar to being a 243 00:13:30,560 --> 00:13:33,520 product manager at most tech companies, right. 244 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:37,600 What you're doing is identifying opportunities for the space that 245 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:40,800 you work in. I primarily work in security, 246 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:46,080 identity access management and so essentially figuring out 247 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:50,800 where are opportunities using, you know, certain data or user 248 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:53,640 research that you can get from interviews, things like that. 249 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:58,160 And then building features that will help users based on the 250 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:01,280 needs that you've identified. And you know, writing those 251 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:04,200 documents, working with engineers, designers, things 252 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:07,040 like that to build these things, testing them, understanding if 253 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:10,960 they work and then launching them on your app so they can be 254 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:14,480 used by people worldwide. So everything you see on your 255 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:17,880 TikTok app is built by some team. 256 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:20,560 You know who's trying to understand that this is 257 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:23,880 something our users would like to use the constant. 258 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:27,000 You know, March of progress, right, and how to improve 259 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:29,240 things. I think most people are probably 260 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:33,520 familiar with what TikTok is. If you, if you're not, I guess 261 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:36,440 just get out from under the rock right and go online. 262 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:40,240 What is a feature that you think is underutilized when it comes 263 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:43,280 to TikTok something maybe that you like to use and maybe not 264 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:46,360 like needs more commercial promotion, right? 265 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:49,600 Or something like that. So for me, one of my favorite 266 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:54,280 features at TikTok that I use a lot I would say is a collections 267 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:57,960 feature. So I I find myself, I love using 268 00:14:57,960 --> 00:14:59,560 TikTok and the 4U page and stuff. 269 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:01,480 I feel like I always get entertaining content. 270 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:04,280 I especially love it for recipes, to be honest. 271 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:08,280 So for me, I I love cooking and I kind of, you know, use a lot 272 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:11,360 of the recipes I see in my 4U page and try to copy them at 273 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:14,160 home. But collections is something I 274 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:17,560 use to put them all together, essentially, and after I 275 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:20,400 bookmark them. So bookmarks can kind of get, 276 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:22,560 you know, there's a lot of them, things like that. 277 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:24,680 This just helps me to kind of organize them and then share 278 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:27,160 them with people as well, which is cool and I don't know how 279 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:30,400 many people are using it, but I find it very useful for me and 280 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:34,800 kind of how I use the app. Seems kind of like the the a new 281 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:36,240 spin on like the bookmark, right? 282 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:38,000 I think everybody's familiar with like, the bookmark in a 283 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:39,840 browser. It's like, hey, how do we pull 284 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:41,680 this collection? Clever name, by the way. 285 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:45,360 Building on the library theme, yeah. 286 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:51,440 I would imagine that your role has a lot, a lot of interaction 287 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:54,280 with sort of you know that growth and that user experience 288 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:57,880 that that happens. There are those things competing 289 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:00,040 interests, can they be complimentary like how do you 290 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:03,440 see your role sort of a driving and and affecting those areas? 291 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:08,120 Yeah, the team that I work on TikTok, from the product side, 292 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:13,240 we do not only experiences on the app like signing up, logging 293 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:17,560 in and security, but we we do all of them you know as a team. 294 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:22,840 And so for me Task Keys has been a great way of providing users 295 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:26,920 with more security but a frictionless experience as well, 296 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:30,680 meaning that it's just much easier to you know log in things 297 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:35,120 like that which can kind of show you how you can utilize good 298 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:39,600 user experiences that are also secure to make the process 299 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:44,400 faster for users and easier. So I I think that that's a great 300 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:48,400 answer in the sense that we have found ways especially with new 301 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:51,840 technology to make if these experiences, especially security 302 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:55,240 experiences much easier and much better for users. 303 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:00,960 Daniel, I'm wondering what was the hot topic in Identity at the 304 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:06,760 time that you joined Tiktok. Yeah, again like what was 305 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:11,760 interesting is when I when I joined it, I was approached by 306 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:15,520 one of the engineering teams to basically talk to me about 307 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:19,359 passkeys. It was especially discoverable 308 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:22,480 credential which we use at Tiktok with pass keys right 309 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:25,920 where you just show it up, show the pass keys automatically to 310 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:27,440 the user that are saved on their device. 311 00:17:28,319 --> 00:17:32,080 It was all very new at the time when I joined and they had 312 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:36,440 already they, they were a team internally that had already 313 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:39,480 focused pretty heavily on Fido technology and how this can be 314 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:42,600 used especially for employees to secure their accounts, things 315 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:45,040 like that. And so they approached me saying 316 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:47,200 this is also something that could be used in a consumer 317 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:50,200 context. And so it was a very hot topic 318 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:53,040 from an identity perspective as something that we had already 319 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:58,160 invested in to increase security for employees and why not use 320 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:01,520 that technology to increase security for our users also. 321 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:05,000 So for me, that was kind of one of the first conversations I had 322 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:08,560 when I joined about a cool opportunity that we had in our 323 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:14,560 identity and security space. Yeah, I I feel like Pesky's is 324 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:19,280 kind of the best of the user experience and also, you know, 325 00:18:19,360 --> 00:18:22,640 improving security and there's so few things you can do in the 326 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:27,960 identity space that do that. I, you know, so I think this is 327 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:31,240 kind of a story that anybody who's dealing with an external 328 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:34,200 user population can really take from it. 329 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:38,080 I mean, you guys have also experienced a lot of growth in 330 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:42,240 the past few years. That's a challenge as well as an 331 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:44,560 opportunity. What are some of the challenges 332 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:46,680 and opportunities that you've experienced? 333 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:51,280 Yeah, I think that having new users is definitely an 334 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:55,240 opportunity for security because it gives you the ability to help 335 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:58,480 users and guide them to the, you know, most secure option 336 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:02,080 possible for them to use, right? So for us, this is an 337 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:05,720 opportunity to, you know, allow users to create a pass key 338 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:08,440 earlier in the user experience when they're creating an 339 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:11,400 account. I know that for a lot of 340 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:16,480 companies or a lot of, you know people, adoption or creating a 341 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:20,160 passkey might be a bit of a tricky or user experience or a 342 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:23,800 challenge, right? Whenever you have new technology 343 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,440 or something you have to add to your account, it can be 344 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,360 difficult to figure out how to ask users to do it. 345 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:33,600 And so when you have more users who are joining or signing up, 346 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:38,080 you have an opportunity earlier in the user journey to give them 347 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:40,840 better security. So I view this as an opportunity 348 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:43,440 for us to help users secure their account at an earlier 349 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:45,760 stage in their journey on TikTok. 350 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:48,240 Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. 351 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:52,000 I mean when you're when you guys got on past, he's just really 352 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,520 new, right. And so there's kind of like you 353 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:59,320 almost had to kind of break the barrier of like people don't 354 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:00,960 even know what you're talking about. 355 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:05,480 Now it's becoming more at least within our within our industry 356 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:08,560 like kind of the common parlance but. 357 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:12,240 Let's say outside of our industry, people generally still 358 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:14,280 are just coming up that learning curve. 359 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:21,520 So, you know, I think being that early adopter kind of hints to 360 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:26,320 me this innovative culture, you know, and I think the 361 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:32,640 opportunity to improve the UX in the innovative culture probably 362 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:38,280 gives you the opportunity to take some, take some more 363 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:41,560 challenges or make make some more risks. 364 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:43,440 Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. 365 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:47,680 I think it has afforded us the opportunity to understand where 366 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:51,400 we can improve, right. We have embraced passkeys at 367 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:55,240 Tiktok. So we know that this is a cure 368 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:57,240 way and a frictionless way for users to log in. 369 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:01,960 And so we I also understand where there I think is 370 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:04,680 opportunity to grow or challenges that we noticed with 371 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:09,000 some of the technology initially as it's provided by Apple, 372 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:11,840 Google, Microsoft or you know people who are providing the 373 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:16,920 technology to relying parties. For us a lot of it is you know, 374 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:20,160 making it more flexible for user experience, right. 375 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:24,240 Not only is this a product that you can use to sign in, but also 376 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:29,120 to authenticate your identity in various scenarios across a 377 00:21:29,120 --> 00:21:32,120 platform or across the user journey as well as signing up 378 00:21:32,120 --> 00:21:36,040 for a new account. So we're looking at other ways 379 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:39,200 that we can, you know, utilize the technology that's provided 380 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:42,920 to us in different scenarios. And I think the biggest 381 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:46,040 opportunity there is a more flexible way of, you know, 382 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:49,520 messaging to users, the difference in the different 383 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:52,680 scenarios. Right now we have the sign in 384 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:55,920 with passkey prompt, but maybe in the future we'll have other 385 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:59,560 versions of that that will allow us to more easily communicate 386 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:02,920 with users without extra steps that they could also, you know, 387 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,680 authenticate with a passkey or they could sign up with a 388 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:09,280 passkey, things like that. So I think that for us noticing 389 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:13,160 that using, you know, the technology we're given helps 390 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:16,880 users to more quickly understand it, especially if it's from the 391 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:21,960 native OS that they have. But also we'd love you know to 392 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:25,040 see more flexibility of what users are seeing to address more 393 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:28,120 scenarios so. Here's a challenge for the Tik 394 00:22:28,120 --> 00:22:31,880 tokers out there. How do you make passkeys go 395 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:36,320 viral in a way that it becomes trending of like, you know, sign 396 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:39,920 up with passkey, right? I mean, is that like, am I? 397 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:43,320 Am I too much of an I am nerd to think about in that perspective, 398 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:45,680 Like, you know, what's the communication marketing plan? 399 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:47,360 You know, what is? How do we roll this out from a 400 00:22:47,360 --> 00:22:49,800 communication standpoint? TikTok video man. 401 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:51,640 Why not? I know. 402 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:53,800 Yeah. I I would love to do a TikTok 403 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:57,680 video about passkeys. That sounds awesome for me. 404 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:01,920 Yeah, I I wanted to go viral also on our platform. 405 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:05,360 That would be so cool. I have no idea how to get there. 406 00:23:05,360 --> 00:23:07,640 That would be really fun. I feel like that's something 407 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:09,920 that we maybe you guys could make the video. 408 00:23:10,120 --> 00:23:12,480 Oh, there we go. We can carve up part of this and 409 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:15,920 make, I don't know, funny faces, put weird filters on us and then 410 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:19,080 talk, you know, some sort of pass key prop type thing. 411 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:21,560 I don't know. Yeah, there's something there. 412 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,880 I feel it. I feel like this is something 413 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:30,160 that everybody wants and frankly probably should be using in the 414 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:32,880 age of sort of getting away from the password which we everyone 415 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:37,240 knows and hates. But is 100% adoption really the 416 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:38,640 goal? Is it? 417 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,920 Is that even realistic to think about from AI guess from like a 418 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:45,880 authentication standpoint? Yeah. 419 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,400 And I guess when we talk about this, it's probably just around 420 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,600 everyone, right? Like can all all people who are 421 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,200 using passkeys across all different platforms using the 422 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:58,720 technology that's provided to the relying parties, can relying 423 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:03,040 parties expect their apps to have all users with this? 424 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:09,000 I I'm not sure, I guess from a practical perspective, right. 425 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,760 There are requirements for a passkeys, so you have to have 426 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:15,600 screen lock enabled, you have to have Bluetooth turned on, you 427 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,800 know, you have to have your biometrics enabled or I guess 428 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:20,480 you can use like a passcode, things like that. 429 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:24,040 But not everyone has a passcode or a you know, a pattern or 430 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:27,000 something on their device depending on you like Android or 431 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:29,320 iOS. So I think that there are just 432 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:32,760 certain conditions that are required by Apple, Google, 433 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:34,840 Microsoft to create a passkey that will probably just 434 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:39,360 naturally you know make some users ineligible as well as like 435 00:24:39,360 --> 00:24:42,440 the OS version, right? It's only available for iOS 16 436 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:47,160 plus Android 9 plus. So right now I I don't think so. 437 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:50,160 Simply based on the conditions that are given to relying 438 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:54,600 parties, you know that it's probably not realistic to have 439 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:57,720 100% based on that. But over time as more people 440 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:01,240 meet these conditions than than it is a possibility for sure. 441 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:04,440 But I think it's just a matter of time more so than anything 442 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:06,920 else. I feel the same way because I 443 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:10,480 think there's still, you know, accessibility concerns. 444 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:13,240 We want to make sure that it's available right for everybody 445 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:15,960 and you certainly bring up a lot of a lot of the things that I 446 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,360 think a lot of people think about is OK, sounds cool, that's 447 00:25:18,360 --> 00:25:20,320 great. But there's you know, there are 448 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:22,920 certain use cases or scenarios where it's just it's just not 449 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:24,760 going to work. So what is the fall back 450 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:26,520 mechanism? So I'm with you on that one. 451 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:30,280 I I guess from a feedback perspective and maybe this is a 452 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,080 weird question to ask, but has anybody like have users 453 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:35,680 commented like hey this is great that you have it on here? 454 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:39,480 Is it just I dent to Roddy that are like hey you've got passkeys 455 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:41,360 right? Or are normal people in 456 00:25:41,360 --> 00:25:43,760 quotation marks also getting feedback on it? 457 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:47,400 Yeah, I think this is interesting. 458 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:49,840 I definitely, I'm not going to lie, definitely Google like 459 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,120 Tiktok and Passkeys. I want to see what people are 460 00:25:52,120 --> 00:25:56,680 saying, all kinds of stuff. Based on just what I've seen, it 461 00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:00,000 seems like we've gotten positive reception, which is great. 462 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,040 I don't think I I've seen any specific feedback like you're 463 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:06,200 saying around that. But I think generally when we 464 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:10,200 looked at the response after announcing that we were going to 465 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:14,600 be doing passkeys in July of 2023, there was positive 466 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:16,880 response. I think people have seen us as 467 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,200 embracing the technology and have welcomed that. 468 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,360 And we've seen other relying parties adopt the technology 469 00:26:22,360 --> 00:26:26,320 also after that and even before. Obviously, we weren't the only 470 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:29,680 ones at the time. So I think that generally, yeah, 471 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:31,960 we're seeing a positive response for this. 472 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:35,360 We know users are using it. So I think that that indicates 473 00:26:35,360 --> 00:26:38,120 to us that people like it. Yeah. 474 00:26:38,120 --> 00:26:41,640 One of the things we like to do on the podcast, Daniel, is make 475 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,400 sure that we don't lose people, right. 476 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:46,880 And we're talking about pass keys and we're halfway through 477 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,240 the episode. But I think it's important to 478 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:53,120 maybe level set on what pass keys are obviously. 479 00:26:53,120 --> 00:26:55,200 I think well, may I ask a question? 480 00:26:55,360 --> 00:27:00,080 Pass keys, replace passwords? Yeah I think that's the 481 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,880 intention right, to create a password less experience for 482 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:07,560 users. So it's to me this is my own you 483 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,240 know thought but that that was the naming convention right. 484 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,920 Instead of a password it's a passkey I think the the naming 485 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:17,480 even sounds like it's it was intended to replace a password. 486 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:22,880 So yeah, I I it feels it feels intentional from the way that 487 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:27,520 it's been branded as a product. What did the What does a normal 488 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:32,440 end user have to do to start using passkeys? 489 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,200 Is there any kind of like special signs that they have to 490 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:36,960 do? You mean just in general? 491 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:39,840 I mean, not really. I mean, we talked about like 492 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:42,760 their eligibility conditions, but for the most part you just 493 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:45,680 have to create it. Right now it looks like most 494 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,640 apps are using passkeys just to log in for users. 495 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:53,240 So you would just create the passkeys so that you can log 496 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,800 back into your account. I haven't seen anyone, you know, 497 00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:58,920 removing passwords or anything like that. 498 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,520 So I guess if we're talking about creating a passwordless 499 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:05,560 experience, that's still something in the future for pass 500 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:09,440 keys and relying parties, especially as passwords seem to 501 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:11,440 be, you know, they've been around a long time. 502 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,880 You know, it's always hard to get rid of something that's like 503 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:19,560 hold reliable. So I think that, yeah, I think 504 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:22,920 that's probably what what I've seen is just the the login 505 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,800 scenario being tackled primarily by all the the lion parties 506 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:30,520 adopting passkeys right now. So it seems like that's kind of 507 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:35,560 where we are at this stage. Now, if I'm a practitioner, I'm 508 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:39,600 thinking, OK, maybe passkeys would be the right thing to 509 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:44,120 provide to my users, right? Maybe we're looking at multi 510 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,120 factor authentication, which seems like a baby step in the 511 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:52,080 right direction when pesky's are out there as an option, but I'm 512 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:54,800 not sure about how much money I'd need to spend. 513 00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,360 You know, from your standpoint, did you need to invest money 514 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,960 into hardware or additional software in order to make this 515 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:04,160 work? Yeah. 516 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,600 That's a great question. So as we talked about before, I 517 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:11,280 think there was actually a A-Team that's dedicated to 518 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,160 exploring, developing, understanding phytotechnology 519 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:18,840 that we have at Tiktok. And so they had actually already 520 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:24,440 created an SDK to be used in the enterprise scenario, you know, 521 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,040 to create passkeys, things like that. 522 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:31,600 What was great for us is that we could use some of the technology 523 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:36,120 that we had already developed at Tiktok to be able to then make 524 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:40,520 it available for consumers also. So there's no new, no new 525 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:44,280 hardware, you know, obviously software. 526 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:48,120 But yeah, it it made it great, 'cause, you know, it's something 527 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:51,520 we as a company had already invested in to increase 528 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,200 security. And so we were able to use that 529 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,680 to also make our consumers more secure as well, the people that 530 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,560 use Tiktok who want to have more security on their account. 531 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:02,920 Yeah. If I'm thinking about rolling 532 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:07,880 this out, I mean is it do I have to do all Big Bang for all of my 533 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:12,240 users at once or can I pilot it? I've been trying to get an idea 534 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:18,560 of like how big is the roll out? Is the effort A lot of, you 535 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:21,720 know, mostly focus on just putting the technical pieces in 536 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,640 place or is there kind of a change management of like 537 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:29,680 letting people know it's coming, be here tomorrow, it's here, 538 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:33,360 here's what you need to do? Yeah, that that's a really good 539 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,240 question, right. I think with any new technology, 540 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:38,360 adoption is going to be a challenge, right? 541 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,760 Like we talked about, it's new. So education, right? 542 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:44,680 Do people know what a passkey is? 543 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:47,800 So if they see this, are they going to do it? 544 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:51,240 If they don't know what it is, they might be confused, which 545 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:54,120 can change your decision. If you want to invest a lot in 546 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,040 it or not a lot, it can also change your decision. 547 00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:01,280 Do I need to educate users on what this technology is before 548 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,360 they create it so that they understand things like that? 549 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,720 There's there definitely enters a lot of these questions when 550 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:09,960 you're trying to roll out past keys on your platform, 551 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:12,360 especially because it is a new technology. 552 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,960 I think that what's great what we found especially working with 553 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:18,400 things like the Credential Manager API that Google 554 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:25,360 provides, it actually is it's a it's very efficient, you know, 555 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,480 as a platform to provide this technology to our users. 556 00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:33,240 So I think if you're questioning about whether or not you want to 557 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:37,280 adopt it, I think recognizing that there are tools that you 558 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:41,600 can use provided by, you know, Apple, Google, things like that, 559 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:45,160 that make it an efficient technology to integrate onto 560 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:48,200 your platform that that's great maintenance is going to be you 561 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,280 know, easier potentially than other things. 562 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:53,440 And so I think that's one big benefit. 563 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:56,600 But yeah, again, I think adoption is probably the biggest 564 00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:58,640 challenge with any new technology, especially with 565 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:02,840 something like passkeys. If people are on an app to, you 566 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,560 know, talk to their friends or watch content or something like 567 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:09,000 that, you know, are they really interested in interrupting that 568 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,600 experience to create a passkey? I don't know. 569 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,760 And I I hope they are, I I hope that they want to. 570 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:19,360 But of course, I think it is important to start small if you 571 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:21,200 can, and make it available to your users. 572 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:23,960 I think that we should always make security available when 573 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:27,240 it's when possible. So there's ways that you can 574 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,120 start out small, offer it in settings right to start with and 575 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:32,400 see if people naturally are going to try to go do it. 576 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,560 Try to ask them to do it in user experiences where it makes 577 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,240 sense, right? Like account recovery, logging 578 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,440 in, things like that so that next time they can use it, 579 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:44,200 things like that. So there's probably ways to do 580 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:46,560 it slowly and just test out where it works best for your 581 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:50,080 user base depending on the app that you have and and what the 582 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:52,600 app is meant to do. Yeah. 583 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:55,760 One of the things, so Jeff mentioned, we met at the 584 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,680 Authenticate conference and I was thinking one of the things 585 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:04,200 that I think has made this so possible and so successful is 586 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,800 what the Fido Alliance has done with passkeys overall. 587 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:11,240 And I'll tell you, we were at the universe and like the amount 588 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:17,720 of universal appreciation, acceptance for Fido 2 and 589 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:21,240 passkeys, it's like it's really like nothing I've ever seen. 590 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:24,760 There's always seems to be maybe not polarization, but there 591 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:28,480 seems to be, you know, some percentage of people who think, 592 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:33,840 OK, that's not good, but it it doesn't feel that way with 502. 593 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:37,680 I mean the investment that they're making to build a 594 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:41,160 community around the investment they're making to build 595 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:47,600 standards like user interface standard contributes a lot to 596 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:50,160 it's kind of become ubiquitous, right. 597 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:53,720 It's kind of like nobody has to explain to you how you do one 598 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:56,640 time passwords with an SMS text, right. 599 00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:01,240 It's like we've gotten so many of them it's ubiquitous pesky's 600 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:05,000 has to get like that till to get to the kind of the adoption 601 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,719 level where it belongs. But maybe you could talk about 602 00:34:09,159 --> 00:34:14,040 your interfacing with the Fido Alliance in terms of how they've 603 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:17,000 supported the community at large and you? 604 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:21,520 Yeah, the Fight Alliance has been, you know, one of the 605 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:25,560 biggest, biggest, I think supporters for us in getting 606 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,719 this out there and also connecting us with teams at 607 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:34,040 Google and Apple to ensure that our adoption and integration of 608 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,159 passkeys is the best experience possible for our users. 609 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:40,360 So we definitely owe a lot to them in the sense that they have 610 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:44,120 helped us to, you know, roll this out to our users as fast as 611 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:46,600 possible by, you know, connecting us to the right 612 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:50,520 teams, the right people where we can ask questions, solve 613 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:52,120 problems quickly, things like that. 614 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:56,760 So definitely has been huge for us in in making this happen at 615 00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:00,200 TikTok. And also excitingly enough if 616 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:02,680 you look at the website, TikTok is now on the Board of Directors 617 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:04,280 for the Fido Alliance, which is awesome. 618 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:08,520 So we're we're getting to be a bigger part of the conversation 619 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:12,000 which is really exciting talking about you know the user 620 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:15,920 experience, things like that and just being you know a bigger 621 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:20,080 part of the alliance itself and contributing to the future of 622 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:23,160 502 in this technology. And they have great 623 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:26,600 documentation too on the website with the they do user guides and 624 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:30,400 sort of not deployment guides but you know implementation and 625 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,120 and kind of things like that. I know that our friend Andrew 626 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:36,480 Shikiar who's over there, you know spent a lot of time getting 627 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:38,360 it up and running and it I think it definitely shows. 628 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:41,480 I think it's, you know, top of class, 1st class, whatever you 629 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:43,840 want to call it, right. But from a documentation 630 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:46,520 standpoint that put it right up there with what I've seen from 631 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:48,840 other organizations. So definitely, I would imagine 632 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:51,480 probably pretty helpful to have something like that to fall back 633 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:52,560 on and say, OK, well, how does this work? 634 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:56,280 But then also like the big brains that you're also 635 00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:58,560 interfacing with say, oh, you know, how do we challenge, you 636 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:01,720 know, how do we satisfy this use case or whatever this challenge 637 00:36:01,720 --> 00:36:04,160 may be? Can I talk a little bit about 638 00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:07,920 the security side of things? Because they feel like this is 639 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:11,440 an area that, you know, we want to make sure that people are 640 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:13,960 secure, they're using things. Passkey's a big step towards 641 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:16,840 that for sure. I'm totally on record as being a 642 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:20,440 big fan of AI. You know, I I'm a fan of it. 643 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,960 I am not afraid to admit that I subscribe to a couple of very 644 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:27,600 specific AI services. Right, Exploring and testing 645 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,120 with it. One of the things that I've kind 646 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:33,000 of tested with is this idea of impersonation. 647 00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:36,320 And at some point I feel like I'm going to be at the stage 648 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,480 where I can actually do an entire Identity Center podcast 649 00:36:39,720 --> 00:36:42,080 with all the voice samples that Jim and I have put together over 650 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:45,040 the years, and I wonder if anyone would notice. 651 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:47,800 I have to imagine, you know, there's lots of companies that 652 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:50,000 are, you know, encountering this. 653 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,960 There was one in the news, I think it was last week aboard. 654 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:56,600 You know, somebody got tricked for $25 million using deepfakes 655 00:36:56,600 --> 00:37:01,600 and video on a team's call. I mean, it's crazy how easy it 656 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:03,600 has become and I think it will continue to get easy. 657 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:05,720 That seems like it's a pretty big threat. 658 00:37:05,720 --> 00:37:09,160 I guess what are some of the challenges or concerns that you 659 00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:11,560 see and how do you kind of stay ahead of that sort of thing? 660 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:15,760 Yeah, and and based on what you said in your example, it sounds 661 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:20,160 almost like people were impersonating other people to 662 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:23,640 fish the person. Essentially, yeah, it was I'll, 663 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:26,000 I'll, I'll butcher it. Someone will definitely correct 664 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:28,160 me I'm sure. But the the idea was people are 665 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:34,280 on a teams call and they were using deep fake video to pretend 666 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,760 to be different members of the board and having conversations 667 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:41,680 and essentially tricked this more junior member into wiring a 668 00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:43,560 whole lot of money to an account. 669 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,440 And you know, next thing you know 20, some $1,000,000 I think 670 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:49,240 it was or I think it was 25,000,000 something like that 671 00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:52,840 was gone. And it was predicated on this 672 00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:55,600 idea of, I even know what we would call it, It's it's 673 00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:59,400 fishing, but it was a very elaborate, you know, fishing 674 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:03,800 exercise to do it with deep fake video, deep fake audio, multiple 675 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:07,200 cameras and sessions running, right, to be all that. 676 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:09,880 I mean, it sounds pretty sophisticated to me, but it's 677 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,480 just going to get easier. And it it, it's something that 678 00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:15,120 I've been thinking about for a long time is how do we protect 679 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,880 against that sort of thing? Do you have any ideas, thoughts? 680 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:21,320 Does it keep you up at night like it does for me? 681 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:23,360 Like what are your What are your feelings there? 682 00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:29,280 Yeah, I mean, I think anyone is is probably afraid of the ways 683 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:33,520 that technology, especially new technology can be used for, you 684 00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:37,800 know, malicious purposes like you said, using things like AI 685 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:41,000 to trick someone into doing something. 686 00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:45,360 It sounds very scary, right for me. 687 00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:48,200 I think when we talk about passkeys, and this is something 688 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:51,080 that you can see the vital lights talks about a lot, it's 689 00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:53,280 just so you said you had someone from Nest as well on the 690 00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:56,000 podcast. I think the reason why people 691 00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:58,800 endorse passkeys so much is because it is phishing 692 00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:02,160 resistant, right. It's been cited in, you know, 693 00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:05,000 the White House memorandums. Nest, like a lot of 694 00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:07,680 organizations at the governmental level have endorsed 695 00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:12,200 it for this precise reason. And so I think that passkeys is 696 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:16,320 a great way to provide more security to users in these 697 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:20,560 scenarios where there might be some malicious use of new 698 00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:25,240 technology to try to get people to do things that they probably 699 00:39:25,240 --> 00:39:28,240 shouldn't do. And so I I think that there are 700 00:39:28,240 --> 00:39:31,240 new, like you said, not only maybe are there new technologies 701 00:39:31,240 --> 00:39:34,080 that can be used for bad purposes, but new technologies 702 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:35,520 that can be used for good purposes. 703 00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:41,280 And so what's great is I think that we are focusing on giving 704 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:44,200 people the defenses that they need to protect against this. 705 00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:48,520 Yeah, and I looked it up. It was 25,000,000 deep fake with 706 00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:52,480 the Chief Financial Officer and I feel like if there was a 707 00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:55,960 phishing resistant mechanism where I say that's fine right? 708 00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:58,440 Let the person do the initiate the transaction. 709 00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:02,640 But if the CFO had had to use a a phishing resistant mechanism 710 00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:06,080 to have the transaction go forward, it would have gotten 711 00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:08,240 stopped at that point. Or at least the chances of it 712 00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:10,320 progressing would have been lower it seems like. 713 00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:13,360 Yeah, it definitely seems like it would have been more 714 00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:15,600 complicated. I I know that I'd authenticate. 715 00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:18,760 There was a presentation that demonstrated this kind of 716 00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:22,080 scenario, right? And I remember the woman who 717 00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:26,320 presented it was showing how you could take someone's voice and, 718 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:28,200 you know, get the code from someone. 719 00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:30,480 Things like that. Showing how even if we think 720 00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:35,480 sending text messages or OTP codes to your e-mail, you know 721 00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:38,960 is is a good way of, you know, authenticating identity, that 722 00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:41,440 there are other things that someone might do if they have 723 00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:44,400 enough motivation to get that information from someone. 724 00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:48,480 And and she showed in her video how she did that, which was, I 725 00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:52,000 thought really interesting and kind of what you're talking 726 00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,960 about here, I think and and how Huskies or other fishing 727 00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:57,280 resistance technology can help to prevent that. 728 00:40:57,640 --> 00:40:59,720 I mean how it would have stopped her in that, you know, 729 00:40:59,720 --> 00:41:02,480 fictitious scenario. So we've had a pretty exciting 730 00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:05,360 conversation. I'm glad we're able to reconnect 731 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:08,520 after our Authenticate show and kind of bring you back and have 732 00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:11,200 a little more, you know, deeper conversation into it. 733 00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:14,880 I want to end the show on a lighter note as we normally do 734 00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:19,040 and we're all travelers. So I came up with the ultimate 735 00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:23,600 question that is going to cause controversy upon controversy 736 00:41:23,720 --> 00:41:27,080 window seat or aisle seat, which do you take on a plane? 737 00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:33,240 Yeah, definitely controversial for me because I have, I think 738 00:41:33,240 --> 00:41:36,520 the minority opinion here. I'm an aisle seat person, which 739 00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:40,240 I think people are really against, but this is only me. 740 00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:43,720 OK, yeah, defend yourself here. OK, let me defend. 741 00:41:45,240 --> 00:41:49,120 OK, so maybe on like a long haul flight I'll choose like a window 742 00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:51,120 seat, right? Because I want to sleep, but I'm 743 00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:54,680 so bad at sleeping on flights. Like, unimaginably bad. 744 00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:58,720 I went to Tokyo in December, and I'm not going to lie to you, I 745 00:41:58,720 --> 00:42:01,200 played my Switch the entire time on that flight. 746 00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:04,040 Embarrassing. That's like 10 hours, Zelda. 747 00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:05,720 Yeah, exactly. I blast like tears of the 748 00:42:05,720 --> 00:42:08,640 Kingdom. Yeah, I love Zelda more than 749 00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:11,880 anything. It's just so fun to just run 750 00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:14,040 around like I'm just, I'm just looking at things. 751 00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:16,720 I'm not even playing the game. I'm just, I'm on a safari. 752 00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:20,880 So. But I I don't know. 753 00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:23,760 I like the Isle because I like to have control of this 754 00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:27,880 situation and I like to be able to choose when I get up and like 755 00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:29,560 go to the bathroom, things like that, blah blah, blah. 756 00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:32,040 I'm the gatekeeper of the bathroom for my row. 757 00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:35,080 I'm I'm the leader of the row, you know, So I I want to. 758 00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:37,440 Get past you. Yeah, exactly. 759 00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:38,960 Yeah. You have to pay the toll to get 760 00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:40,880 through, you know. Show me your TikTok account. 761 00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:42,640 Do you have passkeys enabled? OK, you can pass. 762 00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:46,160 This is our adoption strategy. No, I'm just kidding. 763 00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:51,360 But yeah, I don't know. I I feel like that's a 764 00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:53,240 controversial opinion, but that's. 765 00:42:53,240 --> 00:42:56,400 Definitely, Jim, what's your controversial stance on this? 766 00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:59,200 I think I know. What yours is, but I'm 767 00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:04,840 unapologetically aisle seat and I kind of have wide shoulders. 768 00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:07,920 I'm not saying that in a bragging way, but I kind of have 769 00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:11,200 to lean out of the aisle. If I'm in a window seat, I'm 770 00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:14,080 very cramped. What I think is controversial, 771 00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:17,560 if you were to say middle seat and I've actually met someone 772 00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:20,280 who said I like the middle seat, why? 773 00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:25,040 Because if yours here is her mentality and she was a smaller 774 00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:28,400 frame person, so that helps. But she said if she's got the 775 00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:30,680 window seat, she gets too claustrophobic. 776 00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:34,080 She feels like she's trapped because there's two people 777 00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:39,400 keeping her penned in. But on the aisle seat, you know 778 00:43:40,240 --> 00:43:42,560 I've run into this. I've been kind of a road warrior 779 00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:47,280 for a long time is if you're hanging out into the aisle, it 780 00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:52,040 it seems like the flight attendants like ramming the the 781 00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:56,160 beverage cart into your shoulder and it's like I'm not hanging 782 00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:59,120 out because I'm a bad person. I'm hanging out to give the 783 00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:00,840 person next to me some extra room. 784 00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:02,240 You're supposed. To say you're hanging out 785 00:44:02,240 --> 00:44:05,640 because you're so swollen jacked you don't fit into your one 786 00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:10,760 seat. Yeah, yeah, What was the the 787 00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:14,200 Super Bowl commercial with Arnold Schwarzenegger, neighbor? 788 00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:17,200 Neighbor. Hey neighbor, don't run that 789 00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:21,000 luggage cart into me. Yeah, that wasn't funny. 790 00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:24,280 Anyway, I'm. Going to isolate that and use 791 00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:26,840 that for something. Yeah, go make it a song. 792 00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:28,360 Make it a viral. There we go. 793 00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:32,000 We just went viral. That's our pasty video. 794 00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:34,040 We've just made it. My only exception I'm I'm taking 795 00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:36,520 way too long to answer this question, but my only exception 796 00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:40,280 would be that if I have like a super early morning flight, I do 797 00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:43,160 like the window seat because then I'll put my head against 798 00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:44,680 the side of the plane and kind of sleep. 799 00:44:45,240 --> 00:44:49,960 What about you, Jeff? I used to be aisle and now I'm 800 00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:53,160 window, but I don't care so much. 801 00:44:53,240 --> 00:44:58,120 So what's the most important for me is to have under seat storage 802 00:44:58,240 --> 00:45:00,120 because I always like to have my bag near me. 803 00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:03,880 I generally do not check any baggage so I'm usually on carry 804 00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:06,000 on only. Like everybody I've talked about 805 00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:07,760 it, right? I like one bag travel as much as 806 00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:10,200 I can, have stuff underneath me and have to worry about overhead 807 00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:13,400 space and just kind of go. But I am a Danny. 808 00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:15,640 I'm pretty similar to you. I am terrible sleeper on fly, on 809 00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:22,440 fly Flyers can't talk today on planes and I'm getting better at 810 00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:26,600 it but I still have challenge trying to like do a long haul 811 00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:29,000 sleep flight even if it's like a lie flat sleeper. 812 00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:30,120 It's just it's not happening for me. 813 00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:32,400 So I'm the same way. I will either be playing a game, 814 00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:34,800 watching movies, doing whatever it may be right to kill the 815 00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:40,840 time, but I am window now, purely for the facts, for the 816 00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:44,280 most part, is when you're boarding the plane, everyone is 817 00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:47,120 banging it to you in the aisle, in the aisle, in the aisle, 818 00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:48,680 there. Every time someone, someone 819 00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:49,920 comes and goes, they're getting you. 820 00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:52,000 I'm actually the opposite of you, Daniel, though. 821 00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:54,480 So for most flights I'll be window. 822 00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:57,800 But for a long haul, I actually prefer the aisle because I want 823 00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:00,280 to have more direct access to getting up to go to the 824 00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:02,120 bathroom, stretch legs, you know, whatever it might be. 825 00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:05,840 I'm kind of a little flip flop there and I'm sure you know 826 00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:09,000 there are strong opinions either way, but that's kind of my take 827 00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:12,160 on it is what's most important for me is under seat storage. 828 00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:15,160 Generally speaking, the aisles or the. 829 00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:19,400 I'm sorry, the window seat has pretty consistent under seat 830 00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:21,320 space. Sometimes you get those really 831 00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:25,240 lame aisle seats that have like the power box or whatever like 832 00:46:25,240 --> 00:46:27,800 sticking halfway in and you can't get your bag even under 833 00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:28,880 there. I hate that. 834 00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:31,400 So it's generally safer for me to pick a window seat. 835 00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:34,360 That's a hill I'll die on and I'll fight anyone who who wants 836 00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:38,640 to come at me at that. All right. 837 00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:40,640 I think that's probably a good way where we can leave it for 838 00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:43,000 this week. Daniel, thank you so much for 839 00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:44,400 taking the time again to be with us. 840 00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:47,000 Hopefully we'll see you at a conference in in the future. 841 00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:50,720 Maybe identiverse, maybe authenticate, maybe Identity 842 00:46:50,720 --> 00:46:52,160 week. America, we've got discount 843 00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:55,280 codes galore, so hopefully you take advantage of that. 844 00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:57,560 But yeah, appreciate you take your time. 845 00:46:58,520 --> 00:46:59,240 Yeah. Thank you. 846 00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:02,120 Yeah. We'll go ahead and wrap it 847 00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:02,840 there. For this week. 848 00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:05,800 We're on the web, idacpodcast.com. 849 00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:08,120 We're on Twitter or X or whatever it's called. 850 00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:11,000 By the time you listen to this at IDAC Podcast, we're on 851 00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:15,000 Macedon at IDAC Podcast at infosec dot exchange. 852 00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:18,960 Connect with us on LinkedIn. I'll have a link to Daniel's 853 00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:21,560 LinkedIn profile if you want to ask him questions maybe about 854 00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:26,320 his past key experience or you know, in a polite and nice way. 855 00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:29,800 Disagree or agree on the aisle or window seat choice? 856 00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:33,120 And I'll have links in our show notes as well for all the 857 00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:35,760 discount stuff that we mentioned for the conferences and 858 00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:37,080 obviously can connect with Jim and I. 859 00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:38,640 We love it when you hear from folks. 860 00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:39,920 It's great with people leave reviews. 861 00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:43,960 So whoever left that review, you know, talk about how great the 862 00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:45,720 show was and especially if you're agreeing with me on the 863 00:47:45,720 --> 00:47:50,080 hockey talk, you know, 100% Gold Star for that person and keep 864 00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:52,480 those reviews coming. So we'll leave it there. 865 00:47:52,720 --> 00:47:55,160 Thanks everyone for listening and we'll talk with everyone in 866 00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:58,680 the next one. You've been listening to 867 00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:02,560 Identity at the Center. We hope you've enjoyed the show. 868 00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:06,960 Make sure to like, rate and review and we'll be back soon. 869 00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:09,400 But in the meantime, hit the website at 870 00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:16,520 identity@thecenter.com and find us on Twitter at IDAC Podcast. 871 00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:21,080 See you next time on Identity at the Center.