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This is identity at the center. 
If it has anything to do with 

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IAM, this is the go to podcast 
now your hosts Jim McDonald and 

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Jeff Stedman. 
Welcome to the Identity at the 

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Center podcast. 
I'm Jeff and that's Jim. 

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Hey, Jim. 
Hey, Jeff, how are you? 

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Oh, not so bad yourself. 
Good. 

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I feel like my my voice is a 
little hoarse. 

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I just got done presenting a 
executive read out of IGA road 

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Map. 
And yeah, jump right over to do 

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the podcast because the show 
must go on. 

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You talked for almost an hour 
straight. 

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I think I clocked at 1.15 
minutes without like a break at 

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all, so yeah. 
Yeah. 

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But there was, there were points
where I was like, does anybody 

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have any questions? 
And of course nobody had any 

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questions. 
I was like, OK, I'll talk for 

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another 10 minutes straight. 
Yeah. 

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So when that happens, I just 
say, yeah, I'm picturing roaring

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applause in my mind, and I just 
kind of go with that and just 

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assume that everybody's loving 
what I'm saying. 

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Yeah, I know. 
Like this podcast? 

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Yeah, exactly. 
Like you throw the podcast out 

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there and the only way you know 
if people are listening is if 

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they go and give you a five star
rating or go and subscribe to 

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YouTube channel. 
Are these subliminal hints 

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working do you think? 
I hope so. 

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I mean, those are cool. 
Or come up to us in conferences 

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and things like that. 
That was Identiverse in New York

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City last week. 
I think that was, I forget where

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I am this week, but I had 
somebody come up and ask me 

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about that, which was kind of 
cool. 

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It seems like for whatever 
reason, you're like the 

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approachable one. 
Everyone comes up to you. 

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And I don't know, maybe I just 
have like, you know, resting B 

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face or something like that 
where nobody wants to come up. 

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Why is where my I was wearing my
fancy suit jacket, So I think 

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people Los Angeles come up and 
say, whoa, that's a cool jacket.

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Yeah, Hugh Hefner died and left 
you all his jackets, I feel 

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like. 
Yeah, exactly. 

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So we're starting some new 
things coming up here and before

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we get to our episode, we're 
actually going to get into 

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blockchain identity and stuff 
like that. 

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But before that, something 
that's coming up later this week

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that we're pretty excited to to 
share is we're starting a new 

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series of kind of podcast 
episodes calling them Sponsor 

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Spotlight for now. 
Basically they're fully 

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sponsored episodes that we've 
collaborated with different 

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folks on and the idea is to have
a less vendor neutral 

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conversation. 
This podcast is generally we try

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to be as better neutral as 
possible, right? 

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But sometimes we really want to 
get into like maybe a specific 

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product or service or something 
like that. 

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And this kind of I feel like 
gives us an opportunity. 

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So it's extra content doesn't 
replace our existing content. 

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Does that make sense, Jim? 
Yeah, yeah, it makes sense to 

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me. 
I mean, you know, honestly, I 

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was thinking during that entire 
episode, like this feels like a 

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normal episode. 
So I have a feeling the sponsor 

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spotlights aren't going to feel 
that much different. 

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I think our, you know, our 
listeners are the ones who 

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benefit because it's just extra 
content. 

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There was a little bit more of 
like you know, we we always 

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tried to stay very vendor 
neutral and we had, we had more 

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leeway on the sponsored 
episodes. 

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But actually I think that can be
beneficial because if we're 

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talking to talking to somebody 
from a sponsoring company and 

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they can say like hey, this is 
how we solved that problem that 

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just, you know, I don't know, I 
don't get offended by that. 

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I think that's actually pretty 
interesting. 

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Yeah, I think it just, you know,
like so we, we try to stay away 

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from questions that would be 
like too salesy or too like too 

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much of A commercial for folks. 
But these new episodes are not 

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that. 
So I feel like like I kind of 

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mentioned it in the one that 
we've already recorded like the 

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shackles are off. 
It's like, hey, let's ask 

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specific questions about this 
because that's the things that I

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want to know. 
I think that's kind of the 

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intent is like, OK, how does 
this actually work, you know, 

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what does it take to do this 
sort of thing and get a little 

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more detail around that versus 
just trying to be maybe abstract

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about it? 
I I kind of feel like the the 

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folks who want to do the The 
Spotlight series, they want to 

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be on the Identity at the Center
podcast, right? 

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They like the formula of what we
do, which is education and 

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entertaining. 
And so I think folks, you know, 

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our listeners, if you just go 
out there and listen to a 

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Spotlight episode and give us 
your feedback, like, do you like

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it? 
What else would you like to see 

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that'll help us, right? 
We, I mean just like this 

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podcast in general. 
We started it and depended on 

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the feedback because that tells 
what we're doing right and what 

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was not so right. 
Yeah, we are constantly building

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this car while we're driving 
down the street. 

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And yeah, I think it'd be cool 
to get some feedback. 

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So yeah, folks can check it out 
later this week. 

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Probably going to drop these on 
Wednesday, Wednesdays or 

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Thursdays, kind of kind of, you 
know, kind of off cycle from 

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things, but curious to see what 
people think, you know, get us 

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feedback, use LinkedIn. 
We've got the contact form on 

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our website. 
We've got a new voicemail button

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that I've put on our website, 
idacpodcast.com. 

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So if you go to our contact page
now, there's a little thing that

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you can do to send us like a 
92nd audio clip. 

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And then from that we'll use 
that on our show theoretically, 

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depending on how we get. 
But I'm curious if you know 

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people want to send something to
us. 

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We can test it out and see how 
that works, but that'd be a good

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way to maybe send some feedback.
Now are you concerned at all? 

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Because I know we've always had 
to contact us link where 

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somebody could type something 
in. 

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And it feels like in the past 
month or two since we really 

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went crazy with getting all of 
our content up to YouTube, I'm 

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getting a bunch of contact 
information from people who want

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to market our YouTube site and 
get us as many more subscribers.

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And it's like it's not about the
number, it's about getting the 

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information out there. 
So we have like 500 subscribers,

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but it's people who really are 
loyal to the podcast wanting, 

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you know, there's the 
practitioners of the world as we

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like to say, I don't care like, 
so there's marketing things are,

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you know, 0 value to me, but I 
kind of look at them like spam. 

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Well, you're getting them 
because you didn't used to get 

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them before. 
They would all come to me and 

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I'd be like, Nope, Nope, Nope, 
Nope. 

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So I was acting as a filter, but
no longer. 

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Now we both came at the same 
time. 

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Oh, thank you very much then, 
Yeah. 

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It's me. e-mail infrastructure 
changes behind the scenes so 

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that I wouldn't be a bottleneck 
so much. 

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But yeah, you're seeing a lot 
more of the the stuff that I 

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would normally just filter out 
and be like, yeah, I don't need 

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to help building our YouTube 
channel. 

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Like that's not what this is 
about. 

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You know what else has been 
cool? 

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I've seen a couple of posts 
where people are taking these 

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Spotify videos that have been 
put out. 

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So Ian Sing, you know, he's a, 
he's been a loyal listener to 

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the podcast for a long time. 
Apparently we're his number one 

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podcast. 
I mean, that's I I. 

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Love Ian. 
Thank you. 

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Thank you so much, Ian, But that
is so sad. 

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Can anyone pick an identity 
podcast as their number one 

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podcast? 
Oh yeah. 

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Flattered. 
That's very cool. 

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I saw the same push you're 
talking about. 

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Is this the the Spotify 
unwrapped basically for like 

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podcasts? 
So that's. 

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Yeah, that's right. 
Yeah. 

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And I actually got a link sent 
to me from Spotify that, you 

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know, there are a lot of people 
where we're either their top 

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podcast or their top three 
podcast. 

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So I feel really good about that
because again, we kind of 

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started this as like we were 
calling it pirate radio, where 

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it's like we get 25 downloads 
and know who those 25 were. 

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That was over four years ago, 4 
1/2 years ago, something like 

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that. 
Now we're at episode. 200 and. 

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50X Is it 250 on the button? 
250 on the dot. 

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Yep. 
We should have done something 

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special. 
Well, we did do something 

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special. 
We did do something special. 

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We're getting into a content 
that you and I, I think have had

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interest in. 
I am a skeptic on this, so we're

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going to get into it in a 
second. 

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The other thing that you 
mentioned about Spotify was I 

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started adding like polls and 
like questions to it. 

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So this is just something 
Spotify allows us to do. 

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Can't really do it on any other 
platforms. 

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So if you're not a Spotify user 
or listener of podcasts and it's

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really kind of, you'll have to 
check it out there. 

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But people have started to 
answer questions, leave comments

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and stuff like that. 
And Sean O posted a comment on 

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episode 245, which I think was, 
I think that was Dave Middleton,

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where we're talking with him and
he really loved to show you. 

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So it was awesome. 
Can't wait to check out more, 

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which is very cool, 'cause it's 
like, hey, we're, you know, 

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still reaching new people. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

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Yeah. 
And you know what I also think 

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is like, people who listen to 
podcasts or people who have been

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our guests, like, wind up 
becoming our friends too. 

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Like, you see these folks in 
person, maybe for the first 

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time. 
You're just like, awesome. 

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You really can connect. 
You just mentioned Dave 

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Middleton. 
He was texting with me over the 

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weekend because all the College 
Football Playoff games are 

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happening and I'm a Georgia 
Bulldogs fan and it our weekend 

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didn't go so great, so. 
I I have no idea what happened 

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because I don't care. 
Oh, he sent his condolences to 

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me, so I thought that was cool. 
Well, he's a nice. 

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Guy, fortunately. 
Fortunately for him. 

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Singing voice too. 
And he does. 

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He does have a good singing 
voice. 

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Should we get into our main 
topic today? 

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I think it's time. 
He's been making Face at a Faces

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at Us the whole time here on our
recording studio. 

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We said we were going to do 
something. 

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Especially he's like, what I'm 
here. 

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Why don't we get into it? 
Because we really kind of. 

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I'm thinking about the title 
here. 

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It'll be kind of demystifying 
blockchain and identity. 

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Definitely not cryptocurrency. 
That's not where this is going 

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to go. 
But let me introduce you to the 

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show, Jay Shulman. 
He's a principal and lead for 

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the blockchain and digital 
assets practice at RSM US1 of 

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our colleagues. 
Welcome to the show, Jay. 

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I couldn't be more privileged of
being Guest 250, so thank you 

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for for picking me for this for 
this occasion. 

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Yeah, high praise for sure. 
We appreciate you coming on 

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here. 
And I kind of let off the fact 

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that I feel like I'm a little 
bit of a skeptic. 

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Not a little bit. 
I am a skeptic of blockchain and

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identity. 
We're going to talk about that. 

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But first time on the show we 
always like to find out about 

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background. 
We were kind of talking before 

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we hit the record button and 
say, OK, well, you know, how did

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you get into the space of 
blockchain or identity or 

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security or what are you like, 
what? 

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What space are you like? 
How do you feel? 

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I'm old. 
I feel very, very old as I think

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about that introduction. 
So 20 something years ago I 

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started focusing on information 
security. 

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I think like Dave Middleton said
before it was even a thing my 

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parents asked me when I took my 
first infosec job is that that's

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a full time job, which is 
amazing when you think about it.

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Today, 10 years later, around 
2010, I got into Identity and I,

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before we hit the record button,
you know what we were talking 

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about how that that happened. 
And I've always and the theme I 

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think you'll hear throughout 
this is I've always tried to go 

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00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:14,520
where other people aren't. 
And it's really fascinating when

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you think about where Identity 
was in 2010, 'cause you'd say, 

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well, Jay, that's that. 
It was a thing back then and it 

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00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:22,160
was, it was amazing to hear 
about you. 

231
00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:26,160
You guys just presenting an 
IGAI, don't I don't we 

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00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:30,280
definitely call it governance at
that point, but I'm not sure IGA

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00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:34,240
had been a moniker yet. 
I think about sale point was was

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00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:40,360
just governance, Vexa was out 
there Tim and Tam you want to 

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00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:43,720
think about what UCTA looked 
like in 2010 versus what it 

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00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:47,680
looks like today. 
It is it's amazing to me while I

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00:11:47,680 --> 00:11:53,280
have have left the identity 
space momentarily probably it's 

238
00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:57,440
it's been amazing to watch what 
10 years of innovation have done

239
00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:00,960
in the space and and I'm 
certainly proud of what I did 

240
00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:07,480
back in 2010, 2011, 20/12/2013 
but it it's it's just it's so 

241
00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:11,560
cool to look back on that and so
so I went back. 

242
00:12:11,560 --> 00:12:14,040
I actually focused on another 
area of security application 

243
00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:17,880
security spent a ton of time 
there and I did a project back 

244
00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:22,680
in early 2017 at an incredibly 
old financial services company 

245
00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:24,400
that was implementing 
blockchain. 

246
00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:28,400
And I'll, I'll be honest, I was 
skeptical then too. 

247
00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:32,560
I was I I was not born and bred 
for this and we'll go into the 

248
00:12:32,560 --> 00:12:35,600
details of it. 
So I don't want to preface that 

249
00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:38,080
part. 
But I looked at the tech and 

250
00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:40,080
we'll talk about what the tech 
is and why I think it's 

251
00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:41,640
legitimate. 
But I I didn't think this was 

252
00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:45,640
going to become of anything. 
And doing that project at the 

253
00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:49,800
Super old financial services 
company really showed me that 

254
00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:53,080
there's value and that this was 
going to be a thing. 

255
00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:56,200
And you know, we all, we all 
work together. 

256
00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:59,800
Somebody at the company called 
me up and said, you know, is it,

257
00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:01,880
is this really a thing? 
Is this what you want to do? 

258
00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:03,880
Think so. 
And they're like, all right, 

259
00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:09,440
you're in charge. 
And and here I am today and I, 

260
00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:13,200
I, I love it. 
But I also think that 10 years 

261
00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:16,800
from now will kind of laugh that
there was a blockchain guy, 

262
00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:21,760
'cause I think you think back to
2000 and there's probably a 

263
00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:25,280
person in charge of the 
Internet, you know, oh, I run 

264
00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,240
our Internet practice. 
I just, you know, that doesn't 

265
00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:29,960
exist today. 
And I don't, I don't think 

266
00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:32,960
blockchain will be a thing in 10
years either. 

267
00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:37,920
But I'm super excited to kind of
get into it because I bet you're

268
00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:41,800
not the only skeptical person or
people out there. 

269
00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:44,520
And so hopefully you can 
represent all the skeptics as we

270
00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:45,200
go through it today. 
I'm. 

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00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:48,960
Going to do my best and you say 
in charge of the Internet. 

272
00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:53,040
I immediately go to the IT crowd
and Moss and Roy pulling out the

273
00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:54,960
little black box for Jen like 
this. 

274
00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:57,840
Jen is the Internet and they're 
and she's carrying it around 

275
00:13:57,840 --> 00:13:59,400
with such reverence and things 
like that. 

276
00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:02,280
You know, I see, you know, maybe
that's blockchain in the future.

277
00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:05,240
I don't know, you know, for the,
for the, for the real geeks. 

278
00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:11,320
So when I say I'm a skeptic, I 
feel like it's not because a 

279
00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:16,080
technology skeptic more of a, it
seems like a really good 

280
00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:20,160
solution in search of a problem.
And I've been hearing and seeing

281
00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:22,480
about this for at least five 
years now. 

282
00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:24,760
I remember seeing you at a 
conference several years ago. 

283
00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:25,840
I was like, oh, that's 
interesting. 

284
00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:29,000
Yeah, OK. 
You know, five years later, one 

285
00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:31,760
of the questions that I had 
recently in our Spotify poll 

286
00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:34,040
was, have you set up a 
decentralized identity yet? 

287
00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:37,440
Nobody has. 
So I think it's maybe still in 

288
00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:41,280
that, you know, early adopter 
maybe stage of things, but maybe

289
00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:43,840
we can get into that. 
But I don't want to lose people 

290
00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:45,680
right away. 
So let's talk a little bit about

291
00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:49,720
blockchain itself. 
What is it? 

292
00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:52,680
Can you kind of help me 
understand the identity 

293
00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:55,760
components, especially of the 
blockchain? 

294
00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:59,040
Absolutely. 
And I'm for anybody who is 

295
00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:01,080
actually super deep in 
blockchain, listening to this, 

296
00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:04,600
this discussion is going to be 
hogwash to you. 

297
00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:07,680
I'm actually going to try to 
think about this from an 

298
00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:10,760
identity perspective. 
So somebody who is somewhere in 

299
00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:13,400
their identity career and how 
they might think about 

300
00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:18,000
blockchain and and it's kind of 
how I went and looked at it 

301
00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:23,600
maybe in 20/15/2016 and said I I
thought this was some dude in 

302
00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:28,120
his basement who wrote all kinds
of homegrown encryption code and

303
00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:30,160
it was going to be, you know, a 
hot mess. 

304
00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:34,640
What I found was something 
really similar to way the 

305
00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:38,160
Internet works. 
It is really based on asymmetric

306
00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:41,800
encryption, public and private 
key pairs. 

307
00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:47,320
And so when we think about the 
blockchain it really represents 

308
00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:52,760
well first it's immutable. 
I didn't in 2017 I I completely 

309
00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:53,720
asked. 
I'm not sure I knew what the 

310
00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:56,400
word immutable meant, so I 
looked it up. 

311
00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:58,960
ChatGPT didn't exist so I 
couldn't quickly ask that. 

312
00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:07,640
And it's a right ones technology
and I think that is actually the

313
00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:11,400
use case. 
How much time do we spend as 

314
00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,840
security professionals, as 
identity professionals, as 

315
00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:18,800
investigators, making sure that 
the data that we have hasn't 

316
00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:21,800
been changed? 
And so we have this technology 

317
00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:25,760
that you can only write once. 
How do you do that instead of 

318
00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:28,640
having a single repository? 
And I'll tell you, this is the 

319
00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:32,360
absolute worst database in the 
entire world, hands down. 

320
00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:36,680
It is slow. 
It is written to text files like

321
00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:38,920
it's not even, it's not even a 
real database. 

322
00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:43,640
It is everything that you would 
hate about database technology 

323
00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:48,360
is how block chains work. 
But because it's slow is what 

324
00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:53,240
gives IT security and 
immutability and that's the way 

325
00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:55,240
it is built as a feature, not a 
bug. 

326
00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:59,720
And so we have this, this copy 
that's spread all around the 

327
00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:01,880
world. 
Bitcoin is the biggest block 

328
00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:03,040
chain. 
Again, we're not talking about 

329
00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:06,440
cryptocurrency here today, but 
just quick example is there's 

330
00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:11,359
11,000 nodes, 11,000 copies, 
full copies of the Bitcoin 

331
00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:13,880
blockchain spread all around the
world. 

332
00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:18,640
So as we think about data and 
data integrity, we're not 

333
00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:21,200
talking about hot and cold 
backups and things like that. 

334
00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:25,960
We're talking about this idea 
that 10,000 people are keeping 

335
00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:28,960
copies of the same data that I 
have and we're comparing them to

336
00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:32,080
each other and that is really 
valuable. 

337
00:17:32,360 --> 00:17:36,520
And so when we're talking about 
how the functions work, I, as 

338
00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:39,760
the user of the blockchain hold 
a private key. 

339
00:17:40,120 --> 00:17:43,920
There is a public key 
representation that sits on the 

340
00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:47,200
blockchain and kind of what's 
different and and we can go into

341
00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:49,440
some analogies to other security
things. 

342
00:17:50,360 --> 00:17:54,760
But I think what's different is 
it's not just recording that my 

343
00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:58,000
public key, it can actually 
record other other things about 

344
00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:00,480
me and certainly cryptocurrency 
that I hold. 

345
00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:02,520
Bitcoin as an example, could be 
one of those things. 

346
00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:08,080
But more importantly, any kind 
of metadata that you want, you 

347
00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:12,240
can go record to a blockchain, 
whether that's a log, whether 

348
00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:16,680
that's what my name is or that 
some event happened, I went and 

349
00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:20,280
climbed to Mount Everest and I 
reached the top and we're going 

350
00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:22,640
to, we're going to memorialize 
that on a blockchain. 

351
00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:25,320
There's a lot of really 
interesting use cases that I 

352
00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:29,680
think we'll dive into, but 
that's a pretty simple example 

353
00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:34,000
of it. 
It it is exactly if you've ever 

354
00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:36,240
worked in client side 
certificates. 

355
00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:40,240
I hold the client side 
certificate on my side of the 

356
00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:44,800
blockchain and the biggest 
difference here and I throughout

357
00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:47,280
my career, public key 
infrastructure was always 

358
00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:51,920
something that clients inquired 
on is it doesn't it? 

359
00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:58,320
It's a pain to make PKI work at 
scale, and I think the user 

360
00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:03,760
interface in blockchain is 
horrible today, but there's so 

361
00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:07,240
many people developing really 
high quality user interfaces in 

362
00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:10,760
this perspective that I really 
think that will get to the point

363
00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:15,000
where blockchain might be 
described as public key 

364
00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:18,120
infrastructure at scale. 
Does that make sense? 

365
00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:22,800
Yeah, that's pretty interesting.
So you brought up this immutable

366
00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:26,200
Ledger and to me that it's 
something I always hear about 

367
00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:29,560
the blockchain with the identity
management conversation. 

368
00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:33,440
And you said there's a lot of 
good use cases and probably 

369
00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:35,640
there's some use cases that 
aren't so good. 

370
00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:41,200
But I I guess like I hear about 
this immutable Ledger as an I am

371
00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:43,360
practitioner, like what does 
that mean to me? 

372
00:19:43,360 --> 00:19:46,440
Where where can I see that 
becoming A use case that 

373
00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:49,000
actually can wrap my arms 
around? 

374
00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:52,520
I think a lot of people, I mean 
some of the early examples I had

375
00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:54,160
where they unplugged their 
database and plugged the 

376
00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:55,840
blockchain and then they're like
Jay, it doesn't work. 

377
00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,080
I was like, no, that would be 
horrible to do. 

378
00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:02,840
And I've also heard the example 
of, well, gosh, I could take all

379
00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:07,000
my log files and I could go 
write them to a blockchain. 

380
00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:09,960
Wouldn't that make sense? 
And I don't, I don't think so. 

381
00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:12,000
Again, let's think about it for 
a second. 

382
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:16,760
This is incredibly slow. 
The sole purpose is immutability

383
00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:19,760
when we think about all the data
in the world. 

384
00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:21,800
I mean, I think the problem we 
have from a data perspective 

385
00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:24,680
today is so much of it is 
throwaway. 

386
00:20:25,360 --> 00:20:29,960
Where I think the use case is, 
let's narrow down to two things,

387
00:20:30,360 --> 00:20:35,080
really important data. 
So I think about it from a 

388
00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:36,760
financial transaction 
perspective. 

389
00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:42,280
Do you care about all of the, 
you know, one and two dollar 

390
00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:44,200
transactions that you have in 
your bank account? 

391
00:20:44,360 --> 00:20:46,800
Not really. 
But do I care that I paid my 

392
00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:49,760
mortgage or that my pay my car 
payment or some of these really 

393
00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:51,920
important payments? 
Absolutely. 

394
00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:54,480
So take that to a corporate 
perspective and you can see 

395
00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:58,080
where they may have a million 
transactions, but they're only 

396
00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:00,240
writing like hundreds of the 
blockchain. 

397
00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:03,240
And I think that's my mindset. 
So we're thinking about 

398
00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:06,080
identity. 
We're not writing every login 

399
00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:08,280
and logout. 
We're not writing all these 

400
00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:10,560
things. 
Are we writing a password 

401
00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:12,480
change? 
Maybe. 

402
00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:18,240
Are we writing a privileged 
access, successful login? 

403
00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:21,680
That's that feels right to me. 
And there's some of these 

404
00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:26,600
markers that I think that do 
make sense in this space and and

405
00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:29,320
that's that's how I think of it.
I think one of the reasons that 

406
00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:33,560
we see a lot of failed projects 
and I I think we saw these in 

407
00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:36,520
identity too, is you're trying 
to do too much. 

408
00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:39,960
If we just got these things 
smaller and simpler, we find a 

409
00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,960
lot more success. 
Just wondering if, you know, 

410
00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:48,400
we've had folks on the show talk
about decentralized identity and

411
00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:52,680
self sovereign identity. 
And I think one of the biggest 

412
00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:57,720
actors in that where that use 
case makes sense is government 

413
00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,440
agencies where they can issue a 
credential. 

414
00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:02,840
And not just government 
agencies, but anywhere that 

415
00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:07,720
you're not kind of your typical 
corporate IDP environment where 

416
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:09,640
you change passwords and things 
like that. 

417
00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:13,120
But let's take the digital 
driver's license for example. 

418
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:17,600
Seems to me like the blockchain 
could play a valuable role in 

419
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:19,720
that. 
What are your thoughts there? 

420
00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:23,440
I think there's a lot of 
interesting use cases like that,

421
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,120
but I also think that there's a 
role. 

422
00:22:26,120 --> 00:22:29,680
While governments is a great 
example, I think there's a role 

423
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:34,960
for a corporation as well. 
So we we all, at least 

424
00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:37,720
personally, I I want to be done 
with Social Security numbers. 

425
00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:39,760
I actually want to be done with 
passwords too, if we're going to

426
00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:43,840
go argue about that. 
But how do I, how do I actually 

427
00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:49,480
know who I am? 
Isn't a bank a great entity to 

428
00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:52,200
go validate who I am? 
They've already done a ton of 

429
00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:55,200
know Your customer elements. 
They know everything. 

430
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:56,840
They would know far too much 
about me. 

431
00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:01,360
Can't they attest on the 
blockchain to who I am? 

432
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:05,720
That allows, yes, governments to
rely upon that too. 

433
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:09,520
But wouldn't it be nice to have 
a whole suite of corporations to

434
00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:11,880
rely on it? 
I think the different, yeah, you

435
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:13,520
could do this today. 
You know the question. 

436
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:15,800
I'm sure the skeptics would say 
I could do that in a database. 

437
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:18,920
Like, that's nothing new here. 
I think it's the transparency 

438
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:22,960
that a blockchain gives that 
allows you to see a whole lot of

439
00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:25,640
what's going on. 
That gives you the comfort that 

440
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:29,040
when your bank goes and attest 
to these things that it's 

441
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:31,480
something that I can rely upon 
and that that I think you have 

442
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:32,960
trouble doing that with the 
database. 

443
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:38,960
So when you say the blockchain, 
is that a lowercase the OR an 

444
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,000
uppercase the? 
Because this is one of the areas

445
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,960
where I'm not sure how this is 
supposed to work, because you 

446
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:46,480
mentioned that, you know, banks 
had it. 

447
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:48,760
What about population of people 
who are unbanked? 

448
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:52,480
You know, we say, well, the 
government blockchain, OK, well,

449
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,800
at least in the US, 50% of the 
population immediately is going 

450
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:59,120
to not want to use that 
regardless of whoever's in 

451
00:23:59,120 --> 00:24:00,280
charge, right? 
That kind of thing. 

452
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:05,400
So the blockchain means, who's 
blockchain? 

453
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:07,600
Is it? 
Multiple blockchains? 

454
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:11,480
Is it really one blockchain to 
kind of rule them all? 

455
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:15,320
How do you see this working? 
I think there are multiple block

456
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:16,920
chains. 
I think there are going to be 

457
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,280
multiple public block chains. 
So block chains that you don't 

458
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:25,000
need permissions to access. 
You can everybody can just go in

459
00:24:25,120 --> 00:24:28,720
and use them at will and they'll
be multiple private block 

460
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,040
chains. 
So a group of companies get 

461
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:35,400
together to collaborate around 
some particular idea and the 

462
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:37,720
only way that you can write to 
that block chain is with 

463
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:43,320
specific access permissions. 
So it's definitely a lower case.

464
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:49,560
T and I you know it, I think I 
compare this to the Internet a 

465
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,720
lot because I think we see the 
same type of disruptive 

466
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:56,080
technology coming to fruition. 
And if we go back to when I 

467
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,920
started my career way, way back,
I didn't you, you can't see that

468
00:24:59,920 --> 00:25:01,800
I don't have any hair, but if 
you look me up, I don't have any

469
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:02,880
hair. 
I didn't have any hair back then

470
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,640
either. 
A lot of of websites failed, 

471
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:09,080
right, that they got billion 
dollar valuations and they 

472
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:12,160
crashed and burned. 
So are there going to be block 

473
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:15,320
chains that grow huge and crash 
and burn? 

474
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:17,800
Absolutely. 
Are there going to be ideas that

475
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,680
start off looking really 
successful and fail? 

476
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,040
Absolutely. 
But there's also going to be 

477
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,000
ideas that kind of chug along 
for a while and then you realize

478
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,400
that they work really well and 
they will become the next, you 

479
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:32,080
know, whatever brand name 
Internet company we want to 

480
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:35,960
quote right now. 
So what happens when a block 

481
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:39,000
chain fails? 
If I've been using that as my 

482
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:43,240
decentralized identity source or
my, you know, way to verify some

483
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:45,280
sort of credential or something 
like that, right? 

484
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:50,440
If it fails, well, now what? 
The data's gone with it? 

485
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:54,520
How do I can I save it? 
Do I have to start over on a 

486
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:59,320
different blockchain? 
So you probably need to start 

487
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:03,040
over on a different blockchain. 
That I mean and this is super 

488
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:06,760
complicated technical question, 
but that is one of the big 

489
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:11,160
considerations of building on 
top of these platforms is what 

490
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,040
what's the long term 
probability. 

491
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:18,120
And so you do see some 
centralization around a number 

492
00:26:18,120 --> 00:26:22,040
of very big platforms because of
that exact purpose. 

493
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:27,120
But I I think that's a short 
term, a short term thing that 

494
00:26:27,120 --> 00:26:30,400
over time we will see that 
becoming less of a concern 

495
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,560
because we can just we know 
which ones are going to be 

496
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:34,800
successful and which ones are 
not. 

497
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:38,720
I'd argue it's the exact same 
thing when you go pick an 

498
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:42,360
identity tool or a governance 
tool or or any of these tools is

499
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:44,120
well what happens if they go out
of business. 

500
00:26:44,120 --> 00:26:46,080
I got to go rip it out and put 
something new in. 

501
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:50,040
And so I I don't think that the 
issue is that much different. 

502
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:53,640
It's probably a lot more 
impactful though to your end 

503
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:58,040
user, whereas you have a a tough
weekend of transitioning from 

504
00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:00,560
one platform to another is a 
little different than ripping 

505
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:02,920
out, you know, your your 
decentralized identity. 

506
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,440
I guess the closest thing that I
can probably liken this to would

507
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,680
be like switching password 
managers, except without maybe 

508
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:13,440
the benefit of being able to 
export and then import, right? 

509
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:16,360
Trying to go to each website and
then figure out whatever 

510
00:27:16,360 --> 00:27:19,680
credential I had, I don't know. 
I mean, I think I'm speculating 

511
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:25,480
here what happens, I guess. 
Is this something where 

512
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,200
organizations should be creating
their own blockchain? 

513
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,080
Like if I want to start one, how
would I do that? 

514
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,440
Or maybe this isn't something 
like a normal organization 

515
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:35,280
should be. 
Maybe it's like you said, 

516
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,000
something's either finance 
related or maybe civic or 

517
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:42,360
government or maybe education. 
Like do you see, like any 

518
00:27:42,360 --> 00:27:45,880
company, just name one starting 
their own blockchain for their 

519
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:46,800
own. 
Purposes. 

520
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,480
A lot of companies have started 
their own blockchain for their 

521
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,800
own purposes I think, and I can 
answer the question a little bit

522
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,280
differently, whether we're 
talking about companies or 

523
00:27:56,280 --> 00:28:00,040
whether we're talking about 
individuals, I think everybody 

524
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,400
should be experimenting and 
understanding how this 

525
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,600
technology works. 
I don't think you should run out

526
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:10,040
and go implement this and and be
a decentralized identity guru 

527
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:11,160
tomorrow. 
I think that would be a a 

528
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:15,400
horrible mistake. 
But I do think that it's really 

529
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:19,360
important to understand how a 
blockchain works, how it might 

530
00:28:19,360 --> 00:28:23,360
be applicable in the identity 
space and and play with it. 

531
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,560
And you can play with it in a 
public way and I can give some 

532
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:30,400
examples of how to do that. 
Or you can spin one up in a 

533
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:32,400
private way too. 
And all the major cloud 

534
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:36,360
providers have a pretty easy 
template to go spin up a 

535
00:28:36,360 --> 00:28:38,960
blockchain. 
Not to say that that's 

536
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,720
inexpensive for a personal 
person to do it, but there's a 

537
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:45,600
lot of ways to easily play with 
this stuff and I think that that

538
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,960
is the most important thing. 
That's what's going to prevent 

539
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,560
you from making the big long 
term mistakes and you just 

540
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,160
become educated on it and you'll
start to see the use cases 

541
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:56,640
yourself. 
I'm pretty confident in that. 

542
00:28:57,560 --> 00:28:59,240
So what? 
How do I get started with this? 

543
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,160
I guess what are the building 
blocks here associated with if I

544
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,240
do want to experiment? 
You mentioned templates, but can

545
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,160
you talk a little bit about like
what's what does it mean to set 

546
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:11,800
up a blockchain? 
So I think the the 1st place I 

547
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,920
would go to really quickly 
understand how this works, 

548
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:19,800
Ethereum is what is the second 
largest blockchain to to Bitcoin

549
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:24,720
and Ethereum is much more like a
decentralized cloud computing 

550
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,240
platform than anything else. 
And so you can run little 

551
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:29,280
programs on there and it's quite
powerful. 

552
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:34,120
They have something called login
with Ethereum and that is the 

553
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:38,960
answer to password less logins 
or decentralized identity. 

554
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:41,280
There's probably a bunch of 
different ways that we could 

555
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:43,680
describe it and none of them 
would do it justice. 

556
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,640
The idea there is again, if we 
go back to that basic definition

557
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:52,040
I started off with, I hold the 
private key, the public key key 

558
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:55,840
is on the blockchain. 
I can go log into a website, 

559
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,720
present my private key and 
public key pair. 

560
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:01,200
Obviously I'm not giving my 
private key away. 

561
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:05,760
Just for those who think I 
misspoke and and go log into a 

562
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:09,360
website, there is a full 
documentation suite. 

563
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:11,000
It's obviously all open source 
code. 

564
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:15,840
You can really look at not only 
how to do it yourself, but how a

565
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,520
bunch of companies are using 
that technology and then you're 

566
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:23,240
off to the races. 
You can go implement that not, 

567
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:25,280
you know, full production 
corporate world, but you can go 

568
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,000
implement that in a dev 
environment pretty easily 

569
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:29,600
yourself on a private 
blockchain. 

570
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,960
You can go experiment with your 
own website and having people 

571
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,360
log in that way on your own 
website. 

572
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,080
There's a whole lot of different
things and I think that's the 

573
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:43,640
best place to get started and 
thinking about it and that I I 

574
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,960
think that's it's really well 
documented and there's a great 

575
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:50,480
community behind it if you have 
technical questions and things 

576
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:52,560
like that, to go try to figure 
this stuff out. 

577
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:54,960
All right, I've got a couple 
questions here. 

578
00:30:55,160 --> 00:31:00,920
The 1st is, I guess you 
mentioned Etherium is and then 

579
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:03,280
you've got blockchain. 
And I know there's a whole bunch

580
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:07,080
of other things out there and I 
don't want to equivocate this 

581
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:10,480
with like cryptocurrency, right?
But there's like Dogecoin and a 

582
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:14,760
whole bunch of other things. 
Is there a benefit or drawback 

583
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,800
to some of these blockchain 
styles? 

584
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:19,920
I guess I don't know if that's 
the right word or not for 

585
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:22,280
identity, like is yeah, if 
you're going to do something 

586
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:24,480
identity like a theory miss the 
one to use, or if you're going 

587
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:28,680
to do identity, you know 
whatever other template or style

588
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:30,240
is the one that's probably the 
best fit. 

589
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:35,920
Or are there different styles of
blockchains that that maybe lend

590
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,560
itself better to different types
of identity use cases? 

591
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:41,920
I'm going to try not to get too 
complicated or technical here 

592
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:46,680
with the answer, but Ethereum 
has been copied a ton of times. 

593
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,720
And so that mini decentralized 
computer is actually called the 

594
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,360
Ethereum Virtual Machine or it's
abbreviated a lot EVM. 

595
00:31:54,920 --> 00:32:00,400
And so a lot of block chains are
built on top of EVM Etherium 

596
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,360
virtual machine, which means 
they're actually all completely 

597
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:05,880
compatible with each other. 
So if you build login with 

598
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:09,680
Etherium, you can actually reuse
a lot of that technology to log 

599
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:13,120
into or to use that to use a 
different blockchain because 

600
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:17,160
they are EVM compatible. 
There's probably a lot I could 

601
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:19,560
go into and get more detail 
there, but wait, let's let's 

602
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:23,160
leave it at that. 
So by building on top of that 

603
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:27,800
style blockchain, it really 
allows you to extend the 

604
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,880
possibilities. 
Absolutely, each block chain is 

605
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,160
going to be different. 
And I think over time, what 

606
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:37,960
we're going to find is block 
chains will have maybe not a 

607
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:42,400
singular purpose, but a really 
small number of purposes. 

608
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:46,240
And so, do I think there's going
to be an identity block chain in

609
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:48,080
the future? 
Absolutely. 

610
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:49,760
Do I know which one it's going 
to be today? 

611
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:51,920
So that you guys could all run 
out and figure that out. 

612
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:54,840
They don't. 
And I anybody who says that they

613
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,840
do, I mean there's some theories
on which one's going to be the 

614
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:00,800
the media or video and music and
things like that are stored. 

615
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,600
I'm not sure which one is going 
to be for that either. 

616
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:05,920
So it's it's again, I think 
you're yeah, you put it 

617
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:07,440
correctly. 
We're still in the early adopter

618
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:09,720
phase and we have to kind of 
figure this stuff out. 

619
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,880
Who benefits from controlling 
the blockchain? 

620
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:18,640
So if I am setting up AI, don't 
know if I'm one of these 

621
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:20,960
companies, maybe that 
specializes in blockchain and I 

622
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,200
decide, hey I'm going to create 
this thing that does X, what 

623
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:29,000
benefit is to me to own? 
I don't think you can really own

624
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,160
the blockchain, but maybe there 
is some component of it. 

625
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,160
But who benefits from being the 
owner of a blockchain? 

626
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:43,200
The end user, and I think that 
is the hard part for a lot of 

627
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:48,120
different stakeholders to, to 
get their head around. 

628
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:53,760
So today we have a lot of 
centralized data and we have a 

629
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:56,360
lot of security breaches and we 
have, you know, a whole bunch of

630
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:59,280
issues all around that. 
And the whole idea of 

631
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:03,520
implementing A blockchain is, is
changing the paradigm away from 

632
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:08,320
the centralized data store and 
pushing it out to where each 

633
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,400
individual owner owns their 
data. 

634
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:15,560
As I say this, for those of you 
who have spent time in PKI, 

635
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:20,000
you're going to say that's great
Jay, but but the end user is 

636
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,719
going to go lose their private 
key and then all their data is 

637
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:27,120
lost to. 
And I think that that is in fact

638
00:34:27,679 --> 00:34:31,120
where we need to get to. 
That's the gap of where we sit 

639
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:33,000
today. 
And what the feature looks like 

640
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:37,719
is not only the user interface 
and the tooling to make it work,

641
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:43,600
but it's the IT. 
It's kind of understanding that 

642
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:47,320
process and making sure that the
user is bought into it. 

643
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:51,800
I'm there's absolutely an 
argument that most users don't 

644
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:54,040
want to own their own data. 
I think it. 

645
00:34:54,159 --> 00:34:56,800
I'm not sure that that I fully 
believe that. 

646
00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:01,720
I think given the choice, a lot 
of users would own that data if 

647
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:05,200
they had the right tools to hold
on to it. 

648
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:08,960
And I, you know, I think about 
my less than technical mom. 

649
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:10,360
No offense, Mom. 
If you're listening to the 

650
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,600
podcast today, you know you have
to you have to include them in 

651
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,840
the the, the use case here. 
And I think that's that's where 

652
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,640
it gets hard, right? 
Mom needs to be able to to own 

653
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:22,400
their own data too. 
The end user's the benefit, I 

654
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,640
get that part of it, But what's 
in it for me as a entrepreneur 

655
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:27,680
in the space? 
How do I make money off this? 

656
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:31,120
Running a blockchain? 
Or is this a loss leader of some

657
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:33,040
sort? 
Or is that really not a viable, 

658
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:36,720
I guess, strategy to build a 
business of creating blockchains

659
00:35:36,720 --> 00:35:39,440
and rely more on public funding 
or or something like that? 

660
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:41,720
I don't want to get too deep 
there. 

661
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,440
There's a whole lot of different
theories on the economics of it.

662
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:48,160
I think most importantly, you 
need to have sound economics 

663
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,400
behind it. 
But there's a lot. 

664
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:54,000
You know that there's the old 
expression, If you're not paying

665
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:55,920
for the product, you are the 
product. 

666
00:35:56,360 --> 00:36:00,400
And that that's the paradigm 
that blockchain changes, which 

667
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,040
means it also changes the 
monetization model. 

668
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:06,920
And there's a lot of different 
companies trying a lot of 

669
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:08,680
different monetization models 
here. 

670
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:12,800
Again, early adoption phase, I 
don't know exactly how this is 

671
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,040
going to work. 
The one that strikes me that's 

672
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:18,520
really interesting from that 
identity and the identity 

673
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:26,000
proofing model is if my bank is 
going to proof me and write that

674
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:29,880
to a blockchain then I'm 
probably going to pay my bank to

675
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,760
do that. 
And there are. 

676
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:35,920
Then you can start to see where 
there's a whole lot of new 

677
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:39,640
services that pop up. 
Today when I go to on board with

678
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:45,760
with a company they're paying 
the fee to proof me versus me 

679
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:49,840
paying the bank to proof me and 
then being able to use that all 

680
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,720
all over the place. 
That's the paradigm changing 

681
00:36:52,720 --> 00:36:56,440
that I'm talking about and and 
yeah, that's that's I'm used to 

682
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:58,800
getting something for free that 
I now have to pay for. 

683
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:02,360
So I could see where that end 
user's like, wait, why, why do I

684
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:05,320
want to pay for this? 
But I also think that they'll 

685
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:09,400
see a ton less friction if I 
only have to do that once and I 

686
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:12,400
can reuse that proofing all over
the place versus having to go 

687
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:16,320
reproof every single time. 
If potentially your next 

688
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:18,680
question is, well, why would a 
company want to do that? 

689
00:37:19,240 --> 00:37:21,880
Less less expenses of having to 
do proofing. 

690
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:27,640
And from what I've seen for the 
past 1520 years, friction is 

691
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:30,200
still a huge factor in 
onboarding a new user. 

692
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:32,000
We got to keep that friction 
down. 

693
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:36,840
And if I can rely on somebody 
else's proofing to to to reduce 

694
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:40,880
my friction, that's going to get
more customers on my platform 

695
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,800
where I can then interact with 
them and and solve them or 

696
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:46,200
whatever the platform does. 
Yeah. 

697
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,680
I've mostly been listening here 
and learning a lot. 

698
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:54,000
And it's interesting when I 
think Jeff was talking about, 

699
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:58,280
well, how would I get started, I
was expecting you to maybe say 

700
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:02,720
hey go out and check out some of
these services that Microsoft is

701
00:38:02,720 --> 00:38:06,840
starting to create like around 
the web 3 point O around 

702
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:12,560
Microsoft intra verified IDJ. 
I'm totally talking way out of 

703
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:15,720
my element here. 
Can you even, you know, based on

704
00:38:15,720 --> 00:38:19,080
what I just said there, can you 
give us kind of a high level 

705
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:23,280
explanation of what those pieces
are and whether or not that's 

706
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:27,600
something that people could get 
into to start, you know, using 

707
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:30,880
blockchain to build 
applications, maybe those are 

708
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:36,760
identity applications. 
I think that it's this is, this 

709
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:42,040
is that paradigm change is. 
I'm not going to go to the big 

710
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,320
cloud providers and go sign up 
for a service. 

711
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:48,560
I absolutely can go spin up a 
blockchain over there. 

712
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:51,000
But if I'm going to go build, 
I'm probably going to build on 

713
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:54,480
something that already exists 
and almost everything in the 

714
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:58,120
space is open source. 
And and I want to remind you, if

715
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:02,560
we go back to 1997 or 2000, a 
lot of the Internet was open 

716
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:05,200
source too. 
And that's that's where I find 

717
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:07,840
these similarities. 
And So what would I have 

718
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:11,680
recommended in 1997? 
Go learn HTML, go set up a 

719
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:15,840
website and go play with this 
and try to see what you're going

720
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:18,720
to do and you're going to build 
on top of open source. 

721
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:21,840
That's kind of the same thing 
I'd recommend somebody today. 

722
00:39:22,240 --> 00:39:26,640
Logging log in with Ethereum is 
a great example of an open 

723
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:30,320
source construct that there's 
many possibilities that you'll 

724
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:34,000
see when you get in there. 
And that's actually a a great 

725
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:37,720
place to start, even if your 
goal isn't identity because 

726
00:39:37,720 --> 00:39:39,800
you'll see all the 
interconnections and you'll be 

727
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:43,240
able to find whatever it is that
you ultimately want to build. 

728
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:47,400
But it this is bringing us back 
to our open source roots and I 

729
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:50,840
think that's hard to believe 
sometimes when you see a lot of 

730
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:54,560
commercial enterprises deep in 
this space. 

731
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:59,000
But the reality is, is that that
it it's open source at it's at 

732
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:01,600
its core. 
Jay, you mentioned you were old.

733
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:04,920
Thanks, thanks for reminding me.
Reminding you of that, no. 

734
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:10,440
But I've heard you speak several
times, and when you talk about 

735
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:13,880
blockchain identity, you bring 
up PGP, which is like a thing of

736
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:17,360
the past, right? 
Why is that even relevant to 

737
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:20,240
this subject? 
And what is PGP? 

738
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:26,200
Pretty good privacy Back in in 
2000, when I wanted to go send 

739
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:30,120
an encrypted e-mail to somebody,
I would encrypt the e-mail with 

740
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:33,480
PGP and send it, you know, with 
my private key. 

741
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:37,840
And they'd use my public key to 
decrypt it, much like we do in 

742
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:40,280
blockchain. 
If that sounds familiar, Amongst

743
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:41,680
many other things for that 
matter. 

744
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:48,560
And it was clunky and painful. 
It worked, man. 

745
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:51,440
It worked really well. 
But part of the problem was 

746
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:56,960
always, how do I know it's 
really J on the other side of 

747
00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:01,560
this message? 
And so there was the PGP key 

748
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:04,240
server. 
And it's amazing to me that that

749
00:41:04,240 --> 00:41:09,040
2324 years ago that was still 
housed at MIT and it is still 

750
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:11,320
housed today. 
And I bet you can find, you 

751
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:14,640
know, my, my 2324 year old 
public key sitting on that 

752
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:16,840
server. 
But there's also something part 

753
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:20,520
of that that was the web of 
trust and that was the idea that

754
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:22,080
three of us are on a podcast 
together. 

755
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:24,000
And I'm like, guys, this is 
really my public key. 

756
00:41:24,240 --> 00:41:27,760
And you vouch for me and say, 
Yep, I've met Jay in person. 

757
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:32,640
This is really Jay's public key.
I'm going to to to cosign the 

758
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:35,760
key so that you can see that 
that it's real. 

759
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:38,600
And obviously the more people 
that validate that you're real, 

760
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:40,800
the higher up your trust level 
goes. 

761
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:47,520
And and I look at that and I 
mean brilliant in its time and 

762
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:53,000
kind of left behind as a lot of 
the capabilities around 

763
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:58,640
encryption and SSL and and a 
whole bunch of other things, you

764
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:01,360
know, SAML and all these things 
come to fruition that allow us 

765
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:06,600
to do that process a lot easier.
But honestly, you know what's 

766
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:09,800
old is new. 
Again, I feel like there are 

767
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:16,000
people building on top of that 
philosophy using a blockchain. 

768
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:20,880
And I think that it's important 
to think about some of these 

769
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:26,840
failed experiments from the late
90s and early 2000s and revisit 

770
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:30,880
them in light of new technology 
and that, you know, that's going

771
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:33,160
to be true of AI and a whole 
bunch of other new things that 

772
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:39,280
are coming out as well. 
But it goes to show you back to 

773
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:44,160
the the first comment you had 
Jeff is this a solution looking 

774
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:49,440
for a problem? 
It it takes time for these to 

775
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:55,320
develop and I'm confident that 
when we look back over time, 

776
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:58,400
blockchain's one of those things
that holds up. 

777
00:42:58,720 --> 00:43:04,480
And it'll be interesting to see 
what very dated old balding 

778
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:11,160
technology actually reappears 
now in the age of blockchain and

779
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:13,200
AI and a bunch of other new 
technologies. 

780
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:19,320
I kind of feel like what we 
generally do with new technology

781
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:24,000
and identity is try to map it to
a real world use case where we 

782
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:27,800
we don't have technology, we 
have driver's licenses and we go

783
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:31,040
to the liquor store and that 
person just wants to see that 

784
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:34,880
we're of age to buy their 
product etcetera. 

785
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:41,200
So you have like this issuer and
relying party and so we tie that

786
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:46,400
concept back to this. 
Now thinking about that I'm the 

787
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:50,960
OR the Internet practice 
manager, you know I I run the 

788
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:54,480
Internet consulting practice. 
And I think if you're in that 

789
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:58,280
role you would have said and by 
the way the Internet does not 

790
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:03,680
have a construct for identity 
for how you identify yourself. 

791
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:07,120
And that's kind of one of the 
core problems that we've been 

792
00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:12,080
trying to to solve forever. 
And I don't know that there is a

793
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:17,160
parallel, you know, real world 
use case that maps to how you do

794
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:20,360
it on the Internet. 
So you're talking about this web

795
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:25,840
of trust in the PGP world where 
other people wind up attesting 

796
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:28,160
to you. 
I think the parallel is that's 

797
00:44:28,240 --> 00:44:30,080
the block chains that attest to 
you. 

798
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:33,920
I think that's a pretty 
fascinating concept. 

799
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:37,160
That's probably why it's hard 
for people to wrap their brain 

800
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:41,520
around this kind of approach, do
you think? 

801
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:46,400
I not only do I think, I think 
your example really resonates 

802
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:52,040
with me because we we added 
passwords and we said, gosh, 

803
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:54,160
that's the end game, right? 
Passwords work. 

804
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:57,120
We've secured everything. 
And then it turned out passwords

805
00:44:57,120 --> 00:44:59,880
aren't that great. 
And we said, OK, two factor. 

806
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:03,080
And we've tried a whole bunch of
different kinds of two factor, 

807
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:06,400
right. 
UB keys again, really, really 

808
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:10,800
secure but pretty clunky. 
Text messaging, really easy but 

809
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:13,920
not necessarily that secure. 
And again, at each one of those 

810
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:18,880
steps we kind of say, hey, we 
solved the problem and we we 

811
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:22,120
kind of stay that way until 
something else better comes 

812
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:25,520
along. 
And I think that that is in fact

813
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:30,240
the best analogy where a lot of 
these things we think are solved

814
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:34,480
when in fact something better is
being built and developed that 

815
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:38,000
will at some point realize, you 
know this is better than a 

816
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:39,800
password. 
You know, this is better than 

817
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:42,840
than two factor and we kind of 
move on. 

818
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:49,400
I mean I I think about 2005 
doing Access reviews and man 

819
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:52,280
like I have there are definitely
some companies out there that 

820
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:56,240
thought they had nailed Access 
reviews and they had the 

821
00:45:56,240 --> 00:46:00,560
fanciest Excel spreadsheets and 
man they were on top of their 

822
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:04,440
game and then the sale points 
and of Access come around and 

823
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:07,680
it's like whoa this this we 
could do this a whole lot 

824
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:09,480
better. 
And then you look at where we 

825
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:13,480
are today and there's a lot more
automation underneath it to make

826
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:17,080
these things work better and it 
and and I think that's that's 

827
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:20,040
the piece we don't know it's 
coming or we don't think it'll 

828
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:22,960
work because of our pre-existing
thought process. 

829
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:27,240
But when it actually comes time 
to to use it it's better and 

830
00:46:27,240 --> 00:46:29,760
that that's hard. 
And I don't think that's unique 

831
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:32,080
to blockchain. 
It's certainly not unique to 

832
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:35,840
identity, and I honestly think 
not to make, you know, go on an 

833
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:38,520
AI rant, but I think I think 
we're going to have a really 

834
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:42,760
hard time with AI for that exact
reason. 

835
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:45,040
Oh, you're going to tell me that
AI can do an access review? 

836
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:48,000
No way. 
And somebody's going to 

837
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:51,080
implement AI on top of a 
governance platform in a really 

838
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:53,800
unique way and they're going to 
kill it, man. 

839
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:56,960
And I think that's hard to see 
as it's coming. 

840
00:46:57,320 --> 00:46:59,600
But once it gets here, you you 
kind of see the whole 

841
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:04,280
perspective. 
So, given all that, PGP Pretty 

842
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:10,000
Good Privacy Pretty Good kind of
hints at the idea that it's not 

843
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:13,400
perfect. 
Jay is PGP pretty good. 

844
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:16,680
That's pretty good. 
That's the big moment with the 

845
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:21,240
podcast for today. 
There's our teaser, the shortest

846
00:47:21,240 --> 00:47:23,760
teaser ever. 
Jay, I want to ask you about 

847
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:27,320
some of the applications of 
blockchain in the identity 

848
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:32,040
management space. 
Is there I guess, Is there a 

849
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:35,360
blockchain tool for identity? 
Is there a tool built on it 

850
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:38,880
already today? 
Are there other features maybe 

851
00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:41,680
like ldapse or graph databases 
or things like that where there 

852
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:49,320
are parallels that exist? 
So all the the graphs and and 

853
00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:52,720
other repositories are going to 
be built on top of blockchain. 

854
00:47:52,720 --> 00:47:55,320
Again, horribly, horribly slow 
on purpose. 

855
00:47:55,680 --> 00:48:00,520
And so that is one of the, gosh,
why am I doing it this way if 

856
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:03,000
I'm so I'm going to go pull all 
the data off the blockchain and 

857
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:05,600
go put it into a graph to go 
access it better. 

858
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:10,680
But again the immutability is, 
is the reason that you're doing 

859
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:13,240
it. 
So login with theorem is is 

860
00:48:13,240 --> 00:48:18,880
probably the the, the beginning 
stages of a full identity suite.

861
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:23,280
But again, I don't look at this 
as let's go log into a website. 

862
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:26,160
I don't I don't think that's the
use case here. 

863
00:48:26,720 --> 00:48:30,080
I think and and let's weave in 
AI because I'm usually the guy 

864
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:35,000
that can drop 100 type buzzwords
in a a 45 minute podcast. 

865
00:48:35,240 --> 00:48:39,480
How do I know that. 
And I was my daughter and I had 

866
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:41,560
a fun time listening to AI 
generated music. 

867
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:46,080
And is this is this the real 
artist or is this the AI artist?

868
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:49,520
And it it was a good time. 
We had a a good time doing it. 

869
00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:54,440
But there's a lesson here in not
do I want to know whether this 

870
00:48:54,440 --> 00:49:00,360
is real or not. 
But creating AI music is in fact

871
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:04,240
a skill set that I want to get 
credit for that. 

872
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:09,120
So how do we identify the AI 
artist, whether that's music or 

873
00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:13,280
video or a picture? 
And so we're going to be 

874
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:17,480
entering an area where identity 
is going to look a little bit 

875
00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:20,880
different and it isn't going to 
be the common username and 

876
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:24,520
password, e-mail address and 
things like that. 

877
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:31,280
Where blockchain identity may 
not actually replace LDAP, it 

878
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:36,240
may not replace all of the O 
auth and all the different types

879
00:49:36,240 --> 00:49:41,200
of of identity we do today. 
It may actually fill a new niche

880
00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:46,400
of being able to identify some 
of these non traditional types 

881
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:52,560
of users or or entities right? 
Authenticating a bot in a a 

882
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:56,360
unique and definitive way so 
that there's again kind of a new

883
00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:59,120
world of the Internet that we're
going to face and I think that 

884
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:05,200
the blockchain identity is in 
fact concentric circles versus 

885
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:08,040
replacing some of the existing 
technology that's out there. 

886
00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:11,600
Sounds to me like time is a flat
circle for all your True 

887
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:14,840
Detective fans out there. 
So one of the things that I 

888
00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:19,400
think vendors in, well, really 
any space but the identity space

889
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:25,160
like to attach their products to
whatever Wave is cool at the 

890
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:27,560
moment, right? 
We saw a whole bunch of zero 

891
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:29,720
trust marketing over the last 
few years. 

892
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:33,680
When vendors come along and say,
oh, we're a blocked, we have a 

893
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:39,560
blockchain product, what do you 
think they're really trying to 

894
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:41,480
get to? 
And I know this is probably a 

895
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:43,640
little more speculative, but I 
feel like there's a lot of 

896
00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:46,160
marketing speak out there to 
say, oh, you know, we have the 

897
00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:51,080
best zero trust XYZ, we have the
best blockchain XYZ. 

898
00:50:51,080 --> 00:50:53,720
Like what do you think vendors 
are thinking about in the 

899
00:50:53,720 --> 00:50:57,800
technology space around this? 
I mean I I This is why, why it 

900
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:03,760
is so important for for people 
to go play with the talk and 

901
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:08,200
understand it in a controlled 
research, research oriented 

902
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:10,320
mindset. 
Because when the vendor shows up

903
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:13,880
in the room and says now with 
blockchain inside, you know, 

904
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:17,720
with a little stick around the 
box, you want to be able to ask 

905
00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:22,320
the the really thoughtful 
questions that get to how are 

906
00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:26,200
you using it, why are you using 
it, what are you actually doing?

907
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:29,880
And so I I can't speculate and 
I'm sure there's going to be 100

908
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:32,320
different answers to those 
questions across the the vendor 

909
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:35,560
ecosystem. 
But if you're not armed with 

910
00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:39,640
that first layer, I've touched 
it, I kind of understand enough 

911
00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:43,040
to ask the good questions. 
You are kind of left in the dark

912
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:49,640
with with marketing speak and I 
think we saw in 20/17/2018 a ton

913
00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:54,240
of the built with blockchain I 
think that's gone away a little 

914
00:51:54,240 --> 00:51:58,320
bit and we're we're seeing a lot
more thoughtful inclusion of 

915
00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:02,640
blockchain and vendor products. 
And so I I don't, I don't want 

916
00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:06,640
to say that everything's 
perfect, but we're getting to a 

917
00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:10,040
better place where it's a lot 
more thoughtful than it has been

918
00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:11,840
in the past. 
And I think that's just part of 

919
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:13,880
any. 
I'm sure we saw the same thing 

920
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:16,120
with zero trust, right. 
Everybody puts it on the the 

921
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:20,480
cover and now we're probably to 
a better place where it's used 

922
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:23,720
more judiciously. 
Yeah, it was at RSAI, don't 

923
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:28,320
know, a couple years ago and I I
came back, my report was you 

924
00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:31,920
know to the to the podcast 
crowd, good news, zero trust has

925
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:34,320
been solved. 
Every product now has a part of 

926
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:36,520
their you know, solution setter 
features. 

927
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:40,320
So everything's good now. 
You mentioned, I thought it was 

928
00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:43,240
kind of interesting what you're 
you're talking about I guess 

929
00:52:43,240 --> 00:52:46,360
with your daughter trying to 
figure out AI music versus 

930
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:48,720
regular music, right. 
What was the kind of the artist?

931
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:52,680
It's it's clear obviously 
generative AI is kind of taking 

932
00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:54,360
over. 
It's having a moment right now. 

933
00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:57,440
And I think there's a lot of 
people who talk about ownership 

934
00:52:57,880 --> 00:53:02,320
and rights and things like that 
and being able to verify that, 

935
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:08,480
you know this is authentic. 
Certainly I can see the benefits

936
00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:11,280
of having something like an 
immutable Ledger out there that 

937
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:13,920
kind of tracks this. 
But then I also hear things like

938
00:53:14,040 --> 00:53:17,360
NFTS, which get a bad rap as 
well, right? 

939
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:20,080
I'm, I'm selling a picture of, I
don't know, board a parade or 

940
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:23,120
whatever that whatever those are
right for 10s of thousands of 

941
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:24,560
dollars or even millions of 
dollars. 

942
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:28,080
And I guess how do we balance 
the two to make sure that we're 

943
00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:31,200
really not getting too crazy 
with how we're trying to 

944
00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:32,680
leverage this? 
Yeah. 

945
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:34,880
And I'm, I'm going to come at it
from the other side because I 

946
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:39,880
think if we assume everything is
fake, then I want to know what 

947
00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:43,800
is real. 
And that leads me to how do I 

948
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:47,440
know that that what I'm looking 
at came behind the lens of the 

949
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:50,920
camera. 
And yes, I think we need to 

950
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:53,280
authenticate all the AI 
generated content. 

951
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:56,400
Me personally, I'm not terribly 
excited about reading a book 

952
00:53:56,440 --> 00:53:59,320
that was completely generated by
a computer. 

953
00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:02,360
I think there's some value in in
human being having written a 

954
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:04,840
book. 
And so I think at some point 

955
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:07,240
you're actually going to 
authenticate that this is a 

956
00:54:07,240 --> 00:54:10,800
human generated what percentage 
of this book was generated by 

957
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:14,960
the author, human being. 
But but let's take that picture 

958
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:18,200
for a second and there's if this
were a video, this, this will 

959
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:20,040
encourage you guys to do more 
video podcasts. 

960
00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:25,800
There is a picture of Jared Leto
at the mat dressed up in this. 

961
00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:28,400
I think it was a Bunny costume. 
And when you look at the 

962
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:32,360
picture, it actually looks AI 
generated, it looks fake. 

963
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:36,240
It it turns out it's real. 
It's a real photo. 

964
00:54:36,720 --> 00:54:40,800
And so having that 
authentication that this came 

965
00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:45,240
off of a Canon or a Nikon or a 
like a camera is going to be 

966
00:54:45,240 --> 00:54:47,800
hugely beneficial. 
There's actually a standard that

967
00:54:48,040 --> 00:54:50,120
a lot of the camera 
manufacturers and others have 

968
00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:53,440
created, C2 PA if you want to go
Google for that. 

969
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:56,240
That is a really interesting 
standard. 

970
00:54:56,520 --> 00:55:00,080
That by the way, anchors itself 
to a blockchain. 

971
00:55:00,560 --> 00:55:04,000
I've been, I found it 
fascinating to look at kind of 

972
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:06,280
how how that standard gets 
implemented. 

973
00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:09,960
And there's a camera from Sony, 
a camera from like, I think 

974
00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:12,160
there's a a camera coming out 
from Panasonic. 

975
00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:16,400
And like if we compare the 
styled app, everybody's 

976
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:18,680
implemented the standard. 
It's a little bit differently. 

977
00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:22,520
So it will be interesting to 
see, you know, what this looks 

978
00:55:22,520 --> 00:55:26,320
like in a few years. 
But again you can see the 

979
00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:30,200
identity of the the camera 
person, the identity of the 

980
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:36,000
camera, the identity that that 
they were standing in this place

981
00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:40,840
and actually hit the the shutter
button and took that picture is 

982
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:46,200
going to be valuable. 
And I think the genesis is that 

983
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:53,520
that photographer will likely 
get a higher fee for that piece 

984
00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:58,760
of artwork because it was it was
real versus completely AI 

985
00:55:58,760 --> 00:56:01,120
generated. 
I pay a buck for an AI generated

986
00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:03,200
sunset. 
I yeah, I'm just throwing out 

987
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:07,720
fun fun numbers. 
I paid $10.00 for a real sunset 

988
00:56:07,720 --> 00:56:11,680
taken by a photographer. 
Interesting conversation, but I 

989
00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:15,600
also think that over time, the 
nature of art is going to 

990
00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:17,720
change. 
I mean, I look at things people 

991
00:56:17,720 --> 00:56:23,880
create in Photoshop or, you 
know, it's some of the computer 

992
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:27,480
generated video. 
I'm just blown away. 

993
00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:30,720
That's real art. 
There was some human behind the 

994
00:56:30,720 --> 00:56:33,800
scenes, but of course there's a 
lot of technology brought to 

995
00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:38,000
bear as well. 
I can see, you know, potentially

996
00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:41,800
in the future people don't just 
deal with paint brushes and 

997
00:56:42,040 --> 00:56:45,640
canvas, but actually they use 
some kind of like virtual 

998
00:56:45,640 --> 00:56:49,240
painting and you know, it 
probably feathers out the paint 

999
00:56:49,240 --> 00:56:52,080
and things like that. 
That doesn't mean that it wasn't

1000
00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:57,720
human created art, just that. 
Not that doesn't counter 

1001
00:56:57,720 --> 00:57:01,400
anything that you just said, but
it just it got me thinking that 

1002
00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:04,840
I think the nature of what we 
consider human generated will 

1003
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:07,800
change over time. 
Let me add on something to that.

1004
00:57:07,800 --> 00:57:10,920
Where is a good example of that 
paradigm shift I was talking 

1005
00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:17,160
about what if Photoshop was free
and the art that you created 

1006
00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:20,240
with it, they got a cut of that 
art. 

1007
00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:23,160
That's really hard to do today. 
There's no way to do it right 

1008
00:57:23,160 --> 00:57:25,160
Try. 
It's it's just trust like that 

1009
00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:28,040
that you're going to give them 
10% of of whatever art you 

1010
00:57:28,040 --> 00:57:30,880
create. 
If we anchor these pictures to a

1011
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:35,760
blockchain and Photoshop has an 
identity and I have an identity 

1012
00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:39,880
and when I sell that photo that 
that there's some automation 

1013
00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:43,920
behind it that gives Photoshop 
their 10% cut and I get 90% cut.

1014
00:57:44,360 --> 00:57:48,240
Now, now that's a that's a 
completely different dynamic and

1015
00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:51,480
I think that's what is exciting 
to me about blockchain 

1016
00:57:51,480 --> 00:57:54,600
technology is that's really hard
to implement today. 

1017
00:57:54,600 --> 00:57:58,680
For Adobe would never enter that
market where they're giving away

1018
00:57:58,680 --> 00:58:02,360
this product in the hopes of 
getting some artistic return. 

1019
00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:06,040
But if we can, if we can 
actually put some some contracts

1020
00:58:06,040 --> 00:58:09,840
on a blockchain that enables 
that, that's really interesting 

1021
00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:13,240
and that's really exciting. 
And that Jeff going back to what

1022
00:58:13,240 --> 00:58:14,800
are the economics that make it 
work. 

1023
00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:17,800
That's why it's hard to predict 
you know what the right 

1024
00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:19,960
economics of running a 
blockchain is. 

1025
00:58:20,240 --> 00:58:23,480
But you could see that that's a 
good example of an interesting 

1026
00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:30,480
model that some upstart AI image
company might choose. 

1027
00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:32,920
We'll just take a cut. 
I feel like my head is spinning 

1028
00:58:32,920 --> 00:58:35,520
a little bit because we went 
into this with trying to 

1029
00:58:35,520 --> 00:58:38,800
demystify this. 
I think we've done a good job 

1030
00:58:38,800 --> 00:58:41,080
with that. 
But I think there's still so 

1031
00:58:41,080 --> 00:58:44,120
many questions that it's just 
kind of like, how's this going 

1032
00:58:44,120 --> 00:58:46,240
to work, right? 
Where is this thing going? 

1033
00:58:46,640 --> 00:58:51,640
If you had to put on your 
prognosticator cap on what do 

1034
00:58:51,640 --> 00:58:55,160
you think blockchain looks like 
as like a market and sort of 

1035
00:58:55,160 --> 00:58:58,080
like an industry and two years 
from now? 

1036
00:58:58,560 --> 00:59:01,880
So first I think I need to come 
back on episode 300 to to do a 

1037
00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:03,160
follow up to. 
The time zone just. 

1038
00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:04,520
Throw that, just throw that out 
there. 

1039
00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:08,080
Right now I I think we actually 
talk less and less about 

1040
00:59:08,080 --> 00:59:12,160
blockchain. 
I think it becomes this boring 

1041
00:59:12,160 --> 00:59:15,960
thing at the bottom of the tech 
stack that enables some stuff 

1042
00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:17,880
that we kind of just forget 
about. 

1043
00:59:17,960 --> 00:59:20,040
I I actually think the 
blockchain will be most 

1044
00:59:20,040 --> 00:59:22,360
successful when we don't think 
about it. 

1045
00:59:22,360 --> 00:59:25,480
How often do we have really deep
conversations about L DAP? 

1046
00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:27,800
We don't. 
It's just there. 

1047
00:59:27,800 --> 00:59:30,160
It kind of works and we take it 
for granted. 

1048
00:59:30,560 --> 00:59:33,480
And is that going to be in two 
years time? 

1049
00:59:33,480 --> 00:59:36,040
I think we'll start to be on the
road. 

1050
00:59:36,560 --> 00:59:42,440
I definitely think that the 
retail user probably doesn't 

1051
00:59:42,600 --> 00:59:47,560
think about blockchain very 
much, even when whatever product

1052
00:59:47,560 --> 00:59:50,280
they're using actually uses a 
blockchain. 

1053
00:59:50,600 --> 00:59:53,160
Now, does that mean IT people 
and identity people? 

1054
00:59:53,160 --> 00:59:56,120
Yeah, well, obviously still be 
in the middle of all of it, but 

1055
00:59:56,120 --> 00:59:59,720
I would hope that that this is 
not a front and center thing. 

1056
00:59:59,720 --> 01:00:03,200
I do not think the sticker on 
top of the box that says now 

1057
01:00:03,200 --> 01:00:05,000
with blockchain inside is 
actually going to be that 

1058
01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:07,960
exciting. 
It's really the ultimate use 

1059
01:00:07,960 --> 01:00:12,160
case of being able to get a 
product for free and they just 

1060
01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:16,000
take a cut of whatever I 
developed with it, that's that 

1061
01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:18,760
is going to be the front and 
center value. 

1062
01:00:19,160 --> 01:00:21,400
That you may ask, hey, how how 
did they do this thing? 

1063
01:00:21,680 --> 01:00:23,640
But the reality is, is we're 
just not, we're not going to 

1064
01:00:23,640 --> 01:00:25,080
spend a lot of time talking 
about it. 

1065
01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:27,440
Well, we're hitting here an 
hour, and I want to wrap up the 

1066
01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:29,760
conversation with a little bit 
of a lighter note. 

1067
01:00:30,160 --> 01:00:32,440
You mentioned one experiment 
that you were running with your 

1068
01:00:32,440 --> 01:00:35,560
daughter around the AI music. 
We were talking before we hit 

1069
01:00:35,560 --> 01:00:39,160
record about another one that 
you were working on regarding 

1070
01:00:39,440 --> 01:00:42,000
eggs and coffee. 
You want to care to explain 

1071
01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:44,880
yourself, Jay? 
So I got I got three daughters 

1072
01:00:44,880 --> 01:00:47,560
just in case anybody's confused 
at home as to what's going on 

1073
01:00:47,560 --> 01:00:50,360
here. 
My oldest daughter and I share a

1074
01:00:50,360 --> 01:00:52,560
lot of music and so we're we're 
listening to that. 

1075
01:00:53,480 --> 01:00:57,400
The middle daughter is working 
on a an interesting science 

1076
01:00:57,400 --> 01:00:58,880
experiment. 
I hadn't thought about this 

1077
01:00:58,880 --> 01:01:02,720
before. 
We are taking eggs and dying 

1078
01:01:02,720 --> 01:01:06,120
them with coffee. 
I I will pause for a second and 

1079
01:01:06,120 --> 01:01:07,760
say, gosh, why did she pick 
coffee? 

1080
01:01:08,080 --> 01:01:11,840
She has this strange feeling 
that she's going to get to drink

1081
01:01:11,840 --> 01:01:16,400
coffee during this experiment. 
So that that's how how she 

1082
01:01:16,400 --> 01:01:22,200
picked coffee and we're testing 
a cold cup of coffee, a room 

1083
01:01:22,200 --> 01:01:25,560
temperature cup of coffee and a 
hot cup of coffee to see which 

1084
01:01:25,560 --> 01:01:30,440
one is going to die the darkest.
And that is what's yeah, 

1085
01:01:30,440 --> 01:01:32,280
everybody asks me so what's on 
tap this weekend? 

1086
01:01:32,280 --> 01:01:33,960
That is what is on tap this 
weekend. 

1087
01:01:34,760 --> 01:01:36,320
So that's coming up. 
We're going to have to look for 

1088
01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:40,560
an update to see, do you have 
any theories or posits that you 

1089
01:01:40,560 --> 01:01:44,160
want to put out there and say we
think that this might hold true?

1090
01:01:44,920 --> 01:01:48,800
I mean, I I'll be honest. 
I asked ChatGPT what what the AI

1091
01:01:48,800 --> 01:01:52,400
bought to the world thought and 
I learned all about the pores of

1092
01:01:52,400 --> 01:01:57,120
an eggshell and when eggs are or
sorry, when the temperature of 

1093
01:01:57,120 --> 01:02:02,600
the liquid is hot it opens up 
the pores and allows more dye to

1094
01:02:02,600 --> 01:02:05,880
come in. 
I'm I'm actually I so I I'm 

1095
01:02:05,880 --> 01:02:09,000
pretty sure the cold coffee is 
not it's it's probably going to 

1096
01:02:09,000 --> 01:02:11,240
be pretty light. 
I'm really curious where 

1097
01:02:11,240 --> 01:02:14,720
lukewarm falls in the spectrum 
so I'm I'm still going to be 

1098
01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:21,520
surprised here. 
But it it I'm really curious why

1099
01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:28,440
no egg dying company at Easter 
recommends warm or or dare I say

1100
01:02:28,440 --> 01:02:33,640
hot die for their eggs and that 
it it may be that there's some 

1101
01:02:33,640 --> 01:02:37,400
real world applications of our 
little science experiment and I 

1102
01:02:37,400 --> 01:02:40,240
can report back exactly how we 
should be dying eggs in the 

1103
01:02:40,240 --> 01:02:42,560
springtime. 
OK, So what I'm going to do is 

1104
01:02:42,560 --> 01:02:45,280
what we typically do is put out 
like a little teaser. 

1105
01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:48,320
And so when I tag you on 
LinkedIn on Monday when this 

1106
01:02:48,320 --> 01:02:51,920
comes out, I'll be looking for 
an update to say, so which one 

1107
01:02:51,920 --> 01:02:54,280
was it? 
Was it hot coffee that got the 

1108
01:02:54,280 --> 01:02:57,160
pores open, which, hey, logical 
makes sense, right? 

1109
01:02:57,160 --> 01:03:00,600
That's how humans work, I guess.
What is the temperature that 

1110
01:03:00,600 --> 01:03:03,120
allows the pores to open enough,
right? 

1111
01:03:03,120 --> 01:03:07,200
Maybe there is a big difference 
in cold and lukewarm, maybe not 

1112
01:03:07,200 --> 01:03:08,720
so much difference between 
lukewarm and hot. 

1113
01:03:08,720 --> 01:03:11,360
I don't know. 
I'm not an an agologist or 

1114
01:03:11,360 --> 01:03:14,640
whatever. 
I will put my risk management 

1115
01:03:14,640 --> 01:03:16,400
hat on for a second. 
And for those of you who are at 

1116
01:03:16,400 --> 01:03:19,480
home who might have a young 
child who's going to stick their

1117
01:03:19,480 --> 01:03:22,840
hands in boiling hot water, 
probably not the best idea. 

1118
01:03:22,840 --> 01:03:25,040
And so I highly recommend you 
check the temperature of your 

1119
01:03:25,360 --> 01:03:29,280
your dyes before choosing to die
an egg. 

1120
01:03:29,440 --> 01:03:31,440
That's that's my disclaimer of 
the day. 

1121
01:03:32,040 --> 01:03:34,800
That's Identity Center for you. 
Safety first at all times. 

1122
01:03:35,440 --> 01:03:37,880
Jim, have you ever done anything
like that with your kids with 

1123
01:03:37,880 --> 01:03:40,840
like any sort of like scientific
experiments or anything like 

1124
01:03:40,840 --> 01:03:42,080
that? 
I don't have kids, so it'll be 

1125
01:03:42,080 --> 01:03:45,000
difficult for me to do that. 
I'm sure I have, but I, you 

1126
01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:49,400
know, it's been a long day and I
actually don't remember what 

1127
01:03:49,400 --> 01:03:51,640
they were. 
But you know, I spend a lot of 

1128
01:03:51,640 --> 01:03:54,360
time with my kids, like trying 
to fix things. 

1129
01:03:54,360 --> 01:03:58,480
And you know, I'm not the most 
handy person in the world. 

1130
01:03:58,480 --> 01:04:03,480
My, my father was like, he'd get
out under the car and replace 

1131
01:04:03,480 --> 01:04:06,280
the brakes and do all these 
like, crazy things. 

1132
01:04:07,120 --> 01:04:10,800
And then I became an adult, got 
into computers. 

1133
01:04:10,800 --> 01:04:16,000
And now I I can't even, I can't 
change brakes on a car. 

1134
01:04:16,480 --> 01:04:21,360
But my son is now 19 and he got 
a motorcycle. 

1135
01:04:21,360 --> 01:04:23,280
He's like taking it apart and 
fixing. 

1136
01:04:23,280 --> 01:04:28,480
And I'm like, I guess that Gene 
kind of skipped me, 'cause he 

1137
01:04:28,480 --> 01:04:30,760
seems to have it. 
I don't know where that came 

1138
01:04:30,760 --> 01:04:33,880
from, but not a lot of science 
experiments. 

1139
01:04:34,800 --> 01:04:36,040
OK. 
Well, other than this podcast, 

1140
01:04:36,040 --> 01:04:37,600
this we'll call that this is our
experiment. 

1141
01:04:37,600 --> 01:04:38,840
See how this? 
Goes what are you doing on the 

1142
01:04:38,840 --> 01:04:40,280
side, Jeff? 
Are you doing science 

1143
01:04:40,280 --> 01:04:43,400
experiments? 
I'm always tinkering. 

1144
01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:46,120
I wouldn't say I would say 
computer science experiments. 

1145
01:04:46,120 --> 01:04:48,400
How about that? 
You know what's a better way to 

1146
01:04:48,440 --> 01:04:50,840
use, you know, this tool or that
tool? 

1147
01:04:50,840 --> 01:04:53,280
How do we make the podcast 
better or things like that? 

1148
01:04:53,280 --> 01:04:56,240
I'm always. 
I'm always tweaking stuff behind

1149
01:04:56,240 --> 01:04:57,880
the scenes. 
Yeah, no. 

1150
01:04:57,880 --> 01:05:00,000
And you do a, you do a great job
with that. 

1151
01:05:00,880 --> 01:05:02,840
Well, thanks for that. 
I think that's a good spot. 

1152
01:05:02,840 --> 01:05:04,640
I always like hearing 
compliments and that's how we'll

1153
01:05:04,640 --> 01:05:08,520
close the show out today. 
So Jay, thank you so much for 

1154
01:05:08,520 --> 01:05:11,360
taking the time with us. 
I know you're a busy guy, but we

1155
01:05:11,360 --> 01:05:14,840
definitely want to have you come
back on and be looking for an 

1156
01:05:14,840 --> 01:05:18,320
update on the the egg 
experiments on on Monday when 

1157
01:05:18,320 --> 01:05:20,960
this goes live. 
And hopefully we'll see you 

1158
01:05:20,960 --> 01:05:22,200
there. 
We'll have a link in our show 

1159
01:05:22,200 --> 01:05:25,320
notes for people to connect with
you if they have questions about

1160
01:05:25,320 --> 01:05:29,280
this or if they want to tell you
you're wrong or you're right or 

1161
01:05:29,280 --> 01:05:31,320
what maybe people are seeing in 
the market, etcetera. 

1162
01:05:31,560 --> 01:05:36,160
Obviously, please be respectful 
that we'll go ahead and leave it

1163
01:05:36,160 --> 01:05:37,560
for this week. 
We're on the web, 

1164
01:05:37,560 --> 01:05:41,080
idacpodcast.com. 
Try our new voicemail feature 

1165
01:05:41,080 --> 01:05:43,400
you might get on the show if 
it's something we think we can 

1166
01:05:43,400 --> 01:05:44,000
use. 
For that. 

1167
01:05:44,320 --> 01:05:47,680
We're on Twitter at IDAC 
Podcast, Mastodon, Hey 

1168
01:05:47,680 --> 01:05:51,480
Decentralized, at IDAC Podcast, 
at Infosec, dot Exchange. 

1169
01:05:51,960 --> 01:05:53,560
And of course, Jim and I are 
always looking for feedback on 

1170
01:05:53,560 --> 01:05:56,560
LinkedIn, especially for these 
new sponsor Spotlight episodes 

1171
01:05:56,560 --> 01:05:58,280
that were going to come out 
later this week. 

1172
01:05:58,280 --> 01:06:02,000
So let us know what you think, 
what works, what doesn't work. 

1173
01:06:02,240 --> 01:06:04,480
We want to hear it all because 
the goal here is to put out 

1174
01:06:04,480 --> 01:06:07,280
something that we think is worth
our time and your time to listen

1175
01:06:07,280 --> 01:06:09,840
to it. 
So with that, thanks everybody 

1176
01:06:09,840 --> 01:06:12,320
for listening and we'll talk 
with everyone in the next one. 

1177
01:06:13,840 --> 01:06:16,760
You've been listening to 
Identity at the Center. 

1178
01:06:17,080 --> 01:06:21,160
We hope you've enjoyed the show.
Make sure to like, rate and 

1179
01:06:21,160 --> 01:06:24,800
review and we'll be back soon. 
But in the meantime, hit the 

1180
01:06:24,800 --> 01:06:28,960
website at 
identity@thecenter.com and find 

1181
01:06:28,960 --> 01:06:36,360
us on Twitter at IDAC Podcast. 
See you next time on Identity at

1182
01:06:36,360 --> 01:06:37,320
the Center.