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This is identity at the center. 
If it has anything to do with 

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IAM, this is the go to podcast 
now your hosts Jim McDonald and 

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Jeff Stedman. 
Welcome to the Identity at the 

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Center podcast. 
I'm Jeff and that's Jim. 

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Hey, Jim. 
Hey, Jeff, how are you? 

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Oh, not so bad yourself. 
Good, good. 

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I'm wondering if anybody else 
can hear my breathing. 

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Right before we went on, you 
said heavy breathing. 

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I'm like, darn it. 
Sound like Darth Vader? 

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Yes, Jeff, I am your father. 
You are not my father, that I 

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saw like Maury Povich. 
Yeah. 

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Or what is what was that, that 
TV show that was real popular in

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the 90s? 
Which one? 

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Yeah, we're the Jerry Springer. 
Oh, yeah, Springer. 

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Sorry. 
That's that's what I was 

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thinking. 
Yeah. 

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Yeah. 
You're not my father or you're 

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not the father. 
You're you're not the father. 

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Yeah. 
So yeah, you've been on the 

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road. 
You're actually, we're 

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connected. 
And you're in a hotel room. 

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Another bland hotel room. 
Shocking, right? 

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Yeah, I am currently in Reno, NV
and was in Las Vegas earlier 

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this week. 
Was at the sale point sales 

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kickoff for kind of all the 
partners and stuff like that. 

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First time attending one of 
those was kind of interesting 

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and fun. 
Met a lot of great people and 

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give a shout out to Bobby, Alec,
Katz, Ahmed, Ashley. 

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I'm sure there were others. 
Those are kind of the immediate 

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people that were sitting around 
us. 

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We went to dinner one of the 
night, so it's kind of a lot of 

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fun to kind of talk with them 
and see what's going on in the 

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real world and from their 
perspective, But it's 

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interesting. 
Vegas was surprisingly empty for

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what I'm used to. 
Usually there's a lot of people 

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there, and it just seemed like 
it was like the calm for the 

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storm before the Super Bowl 
arrives there in a couple weeks.

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So yeah, it was interesting to 
just not be inundated with 

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people ever. 
It was. 

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It was actually kind of, kind of
pleasant. 

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Yeah. 
Don't you think it's interesting

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how the whole world is fixated 
on whether or not Taylor Swift 

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is going to be able to make it 
to the game? 

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I mean, like, that's what 
everybody's talking about. 

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Did you see that the embassy in 
Japan put out a press release. 

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I read this this morning. 
They put this out that basically

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says there is plenty of time for
Taylor Swift to make it to the 

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Super Bowl. 
And because she's playing a a 

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show in Tokyo the night the the 
night before. 

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But because of time changes and 
stuff like that, if she leaves 

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after the show, she should be 
getting there in plenty of time.

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But there was like concern that 
you know, would she be late, 

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will she cut the show short to 
try and make it? 

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I mean it's just it's gotten 
pretty ridiculous. 

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I've never, I don't think I've. 
I can't really. 

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Last time there was like this 
phenomenon around somebody, an 

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individual that was really 
impacting the NFL world. 

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It's kind of crazy. 
What do you think of Taylor 

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Swift? 
Are you a fan? 

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Nah, I didn't. 
I don't really care. 

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Or another. 
I'm sure she's a talented singer

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or songwriter, but I don't 
really listen to anything. 

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Yeah, yeah, I I think she has 
some catchy. 

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Songs that I like and But You're
a Road Warrior. 

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You're I mean, like I used to 
say I've been a road warrior for

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20 years, which I kind of feel 
was true. 

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I mean I wasn't like the elite 
traveler like you are today. 

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But I mean I was one to three 
weeks on the road every month 

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for like 20 years. 
You're like you live out of out 

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of your suitcase now. 
Yeah, I think it's just this I I

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think that's kind of a little 
bit of my role at the moment. 

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So kind of utility player doing 
what I need to do but definitely

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not something that has been 
historic. 

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Historical at least for me last 
year is really kind of when it 

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picked up. 
But I enjoy it gets me out 

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talking to people which is what 
I like to do and talk to a lot 

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of really smart people. 
Got to have a really nice dinner

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with friend Bert who I used to 
work with so way back in the day

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and kind of listen to him. 
I am trying like heck to get him

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on the show. 
We actually were sitting there, 

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we were talking over dinner and 
just kind of catching up because

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it had been a while since we'd 
seen each other. 

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And he's, he was talking about 
keeping your vendors accountable

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and honest and making sure you 
get the most value out of the 

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products that you're buying. 
I was like, that's it. 

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That's our episode right there. 
So yeah, that's that's one I've 

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been working on for a while. 
And hopefully, Bert, if you're 

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listening, we got to get you on,
man. 

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Yeah, let's face it, Bert is 
sounds like he's the he's the 

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person or exemplifies living in 
the real world of identity. 

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He's the practitioner out there 
making it happen, but he doesn't

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really think. 
Of himself as an identity 

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person. 
I mean he's a he's a siso and 

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that's happened. 
I used to work for him back in 

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one of my prior roles and you 
know I it's it's interesting. 

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You know it's like well, I don't
really, you know, I'm not I'm 

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not an identity. 
It's like yeah, we, but we talk 

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about so many other information 
security things as well, right. 

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Identity's part of information 
security. 

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It's one of the, in my mind, one
of the pillars from a security 

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strategy like there is you. 
Could say there are things. 

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We can talk about it is 
Epicenter for sure. 

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We heard it from this. 
So you know Ryan? 

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Yeah, Ryan, Ryan, last episode 
really nailed that. 

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But we were talking about, I was
in a meeting, I think I was with

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you and someone was talking 
about, you know, Microsoft and 

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all their different offerings, 
like a Venn diagram of 

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overlapping. 
And I was thinking to myself, 

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hey, I I know what the center of
that Venn diagram is. 

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It's the identity. 
Yeah, I mean, it's everywhere. 

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You can't escape it. 
Like, what industry do you 

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specialize in Friday? 
All of them. 

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Every industry uses it. 
So, I mean, that's obviously 

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maybe my selfish view of the IM 
space, but everybody is doing 

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identity and there are a lot of 
overwrap in use cases. 

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You know, I hate to say it, but 
not everyone is special, right? 

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There are certainly some unique 
use cases, but there's a lot of 

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common things that stretch 
across no matter what industry 

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or vertical or size of 
organization, everyone is 

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dealing with things in the 
identity world. 

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Yeah, so we've been teasing this
episode for a while. 

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It's the five questions that we 
were asking people to leave us 

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voicemails with questions. 
We got a lot more than five. 

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We only pick five because we're 
giving away some donated codes 

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to download the e-book Learning 
Digital Identity by Phil Winley.

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Phil's gracious enough to get us
those codes. 

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So today's the day where we're 
going to play those questions 

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and then answer them the best we
can. 

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Yeah, it was. 
I mean there were a lot of good 

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questions. 
So it's kind of hard to like 

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choose those. 
Oh, that's a great was like 

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maybe we should do a whole show 
around that or, you know, I love

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that for for different reasons. 
But yeah, these are the ones 

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that we kind of settled on. 
And I don't know how do we want 

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to go into this? 
Do we want to go into that, do 

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everything else we want to cover
before we start going to 

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voicemail? 
Yeah, we should talk about 

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Identity Week, right? 
I mean, those are upcoming and 

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we've got a fantastic discount 
code. 

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So we've got Identity Week is a 
conference that hits Europe, 

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Asia and America. 
So Europe is in Amsterdam June 

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11th through 12th, America's in 
DC September 11th and 12th, and 

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we'll be at that one Singapore. 
We'll be at the sorry in 

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America, so we'll be at the. 
We'll be at the 1:00, we'll be 

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there and then Asia is in 
Singapore, October 22nd and 

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23rd. 
Wish we would be there, but I 

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don't think we're going to be 
anyway. 

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That discount code is IDAC 30. 
It gives you 30% off for 

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registering for any or all of 
those those conferences. 

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So that's one of the things that
we do is like we're going out 

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there and trying to get these 
discount codes. 

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We don't benefit directly from 
them, but you know, we're doing 

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it for the folks who listen and 
hopefully they can get save 

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their organizations a few bucks 
or if they're paying for it out 

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of their own pocket, save for 
themselves. 

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Yeah, yeah. 
And then come check us out. 

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Jenny Week, America or the other
ones. 

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It's kind of cool. 
The code works around the world 

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because I know we've got folks 
listening all over the place. 

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So, you know, there's three 
different conferences, 3 

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different regions. 
I I enjoyed my time there last 

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year. 
So I'm looking forward to 

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continue to grow and expand. 
We'll have a little more of a 

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podcast presence this year. 
So we're working with the 

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conference organizers to help 
with that as well. 

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But yeah, I, I, I like where 
that that conference is going. 

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So I think there's plenty of 
room for learnings and to get 

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together as groups and kind of 
you know, hear from from folks 

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of how they're tackling some of 
these challenges that we see out

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there. 
Yeah, I think also just, you 

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know, I've seen conferences do 
this a few times where they try 

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and go regional. 
And what is great about the 

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regional aspect is people who 
normally wouldn't get to go to a

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conference can go if it's, you 
know, local and they don't have 

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to hop on a plane or necessarily
get a hotel or they can minimize

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that. 
The cost of their organization, 

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they can get to go. 
So I think that's real valuable.

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So I think with like Identity 
Week, America being in DC, 

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there's just kind of a a 
increased focus on kind of the 

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Beltway and everything that 
happens inside or near the 

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Beltway. 
Yeah, I think historically it's 

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been a government focused, kind 
of more government focused 

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conference. 
But I think they're trying to 

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expand, right. 
And the way to expand is to get 

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more people involved, different 
viewpoints and like I said I I 

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I'm encouraged by the direction 
of it. 

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I think it's still a growing 
thing, which is great. 

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There's there's definitely room 
for that and it's a good time of

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year because there's really 
nothing else I think from 

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identity perspective taking 
place in the US around around 

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that time. 
Now, before we get into those 

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awesome questions, I know you 
had found this post on Reddit. 

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You sent it to me during the 
week, and I was just like, oh, 

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that's really cool. 
We need to talk about that 

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during the podcast. 
So what do you tell everybody 

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what that was? 
And then we'll jump into the 

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questions. 
Yeah, I just happened to 

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randomly be scrolling through 
Reddit as one does. 

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I'm mostly a worker, and I 
subscribed to the identity 

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Management subreddit, and there 
was a topic that said what are 

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your top five cybersecurity 
podcasts and newsletters that 

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especially focus on identity and
access management? 

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And it's like, oh, OK, that's 
kind of cool. 

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Let me see, you know what's in 
there? 

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What are people saying? 
And the first one was a comment.

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Identity at the center is the 
only one I'm listening to. 

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And then the original poster put
a comment that's top shelf. 

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So yeah, I had to comment on 
that one. 

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I normally don't really kind of 
get involved, that kind of 

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thing, but it was very 
flattering to kind of see it out

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there. 
And I just happened to catch it.

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I think it was just, it wasn't 
like I was looking for anything.

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It was just, oh, OK, you know, 
what's up there? 

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And yeah, there we are so Reddit
famous, I guess, which is very 

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cool. 
So if you're on Reddit, you're 

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listening. 
Thank you so much. 

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If you're not on Reddit and 
listening, thank you so much. 

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Yeah, what I liked was there 
were six up boots and so 

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subtracting the up boot that you
put and that the original poster

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probably put, you know, four 
people loaded it up. 

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Yeah, not a very heavily 
trafficked subreddit, but 

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occasionally there's some 
Megan's in there and some 

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interesting questions and kind 
of things like that. 

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I think. 
I think it's one of those things

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where that subreddit seems to 
get a lot of like what I would 

226
00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:29,720
call like spam advertising and 
sort of like sponsored branded 

227
00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:31,960
posts and things like that. 
But every once in a while, you 

228
00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:33,760
get one that seems kind of 
legitimate. 

229
00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:35,800
That could be annoying. 
You know, one of the things I'll

230
00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:39,240
do a lot is, you know, type 
whatever I want to search and 

231
00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:43,480
Google, and if I don't want to 
just get sponsored content, then

232
00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:48,040
I'll put the word Reddit just to
see what comes back. 

233
00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:52,280
And you sometimes get some real 
human beings, like what you used

234
00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:55,240
to get when you would search, 
you know, 20 years ago. 

235
00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:59,200
Yeah, I mean there's there's a 
lot of sponsorship and 

236
00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:01,160
advertisement. 
I've read it for sure. 

237
00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:04,400
But this one I choose to believe
was legitimate because I 

238
00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:06,600
actually ended up having a 
conversation with one of the the

239
00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:09,760
posters on there, training some 
linked messages back and forth. 

240
00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:12,360
So that was kind of cool. 
But yeah, very, very cool to see

241
00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:13,640
that out there. 
People obviously still 

242
00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:16,400
discovering us and for the folks
who are sharing that out there, 

243
00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:18,280
definitely appreciate it. 
Why don't we get to some 

244
00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:20,160
voicemails? 
Yeah, that sounds great. 

245
00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:23,720
I one thing I want to say before
we start the voicemails is we're

246
00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:25,840
going to go through 5 today. 
We had lots of them. 

247
00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:30,360
The ones that we don't go 
through today, we're saving for 

248
00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:32,320
future episodes. 
Like Jeff said, some of them 

249
00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:36,240
were, we didn't want to like 
punish, but they're good enough 

250
00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:39,640
questions that we can base the 
whole episode on the question. 

251
00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:41,320
So we did save some for that 
reason. 

252
00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:46,000
But also it's not like the 
voicemail lines are now closed. 

253
00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:47,840
Keep putting questions out 
there. 

254
00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:49,680
We'll use them for future 
episodes. 

255
00:12:49,680 --> 00:12:54,400
So yeah, please keep doing that 
and then, you know, spread the 

256
00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:57,920
word, let people know. 
That's how the podcast is 

257
00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:00,440
growing, is, you know, a lot of 
times I'll talk to people who 

258
00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:03,040
are practitioners in our space 
like, oh, you have a podcast 

259
00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:05,360
identity at the center. 
I never heard of it before. 

260
00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:08,880
Like, oh man, this is somebody 
who should already know about 

261
00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:10,600
this. 
So, you know, spreading the word

262
00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:13,520
is certainly appreciated. 
Yeah, lots of good ones. 

263
00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:18,400
I was surprised only one spam 
slash, not even like trolley, 

264
00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:20,960
because it was funny. 
There was one from So whoever 

265
00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:22,760
put in the Chip chipperson one, 
I got you. 

266
00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:26,600
I know who chip chipperson is. 
So my thought process is like, 

267
00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:29,720
either they know that, I know 
that, or they're just a fan of 

268
00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:32,160
Jim Norton, who is a comedian 
and that's like his alternate 

269
00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:34,520
persona. 
So I got a kick out of that, 

270
00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:36,920
whoever set that in. 
But sorry, you didn't win a 

271
00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:39,360
book. 
I did recognize it. 

272
00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:43,440
Yeah, and then, well, I guess 
it's not validated, but I 

273
00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:45,320
thought the person's e-mail 
address said 

274
00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:49,520
likechipchipperson@aol.com. 
And I was like, wow, did they go

275
00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:52,200
through the effort of creating 
that e-mail address too? 

276
00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:56,040
Or did they just put it in there
and it doesn't just put it in 

277
00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:57,600
there? 
Yeah, home run chipper. 

278
00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:01,280
So good job. 
All right, The first one up is 

279
00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:03,360
Andrew Champ, the phone. 
So that's a nice one. 

280
00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:05,880
So let me play that clip and 
then and then we'll respond. 

281
00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:07,720
Hey Jack and Jim, a new champ on
here. 

282
00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:12,160
Just friend of the show and I'm 
asking you guys about the 

283
00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:15,000
barrier of entry and identity 
access management. 

284
00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:18,920
There seems to be so many 
companies are looking for 

285
00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:22,680
talent, but it's hard to come 
by, especially entry level roles

286
00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:26,880
and that seems to be a struggle 
around the industry today. 

287
00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:29,920
There's not many people who can 
get sell point experience 

288
00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:32,920
because they're not on projects 
that will do sell point. 

289
00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:37,440
Yes, sell point did open up 
their identity university to 

290
00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:39,200
people, but it seems to be still
a gap. 

291
00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:42,080
What do you think are some 
changes that need that need to 

292
00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:46,680
happen in terms of companies 
giving actual level of people a 

293
00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,560
shot into? 
I am because I just don't feel 

294
00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:50,880
like there's an easy answer to 
it. 

295
00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:52,720
Thanks guys. 
Letter of D what you guys doing 

296
00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:54,080
and hope to see you guys soon on
the show. 

297
00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:54,720
Bye. 
All right. 

298
00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:56,760
So, Andrew, definitely in front 
of the show, seeing that a 

299
00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:58,640
couple actually saw my identity 
week in Merkel last year. 

300
00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:01,680
Good question. 
I like this question because I 

301
00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:04,400
think a lot of times we focus on
people who've been in the space 

302
00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:07,960
for a while. 
But this is an area that I think

303
00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:10,640
is interesting is how do you 
actually get into identity? 

304
00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:15,800
I feel like hands on as the best
teacher and how do you get an 

305
00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:19,800
entry level you know I am 
position where you are hands on 

306
00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:21,280
with the tech with the 
technology. 

307
00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:24,280
What are your thoughts, Jim? 
Yeah, great. 

308
00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:28,120
Great question from Andrew and I
also really appreciate what he's

309
00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:32,040
out there doing to try to help 
people get these entry level 

310
00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:34,520
rolls. 
And so this is right in his his 

311
00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:36,880
lane. 
I think one of the questions is 

312
00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:40,280
like if you're starting off what
what do you can define as entry 

313
00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:41,560
level? 
In other words, you're already 

314
00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:44,200
in the company, you're already 
working in some kind of 

315
00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:48,880
technology or customer support 
or is this somebody who is just 

316
00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:52,560
out of whatever training they're
doing and decided like IMS for 

317
00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:55,440
me. 
And I think First off, First 

318
00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:59,320
things first, like you need to 
know what you want to do, like 

319
00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:01,920
where you want to go or have at 
least some idea, right. 

320
00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:05,640
That be open to the idea that 
it's going to change if you're 

321
00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:09,520
in that role, where are you in 
that space where you don't have 

322
00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:11,480
a role yet? 
I think you just need to get 

323
00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:13,440
that first role and you have to 
be open minded. 

324
00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:16,440
Like yeah, I'd like to learn 
Cell point might be your entry 

325
00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:18,960
point, but you might get in a 
company that doesn't have Cell 

326
00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:20,680
Point, it might have something 
else. 

327
00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:25,400
And it's like then be open to 
learning a different area of IAM

328
00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:29,040
because you can learn it all if 
you give it time and you get the

329
00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:31,400
experience. 
If you're already in a role and 

330
00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:36,760
you want to move up within, you 
know, to be willing to take on 

331
00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:39,840
new opportunities and learn 
outside of work. 

332
00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:42,480
I know everybody's life 
situation is a little bit 

333
00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:44,200
different. 
But most companies don't want to

334
00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:46,760
pay people to just sit there and
learn, right. 

335
00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:48,760
They want to pay people to do a 
job. 

336
00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:52,520
So you're going to have to spend
some of your own free time kind 

337
00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:56,720
of improving your skills. 
I think getting those years of 

338
00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,200
experience under your belt, 
that's key. 

339
00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:04,359
I think going and doing a good 
job, that's key and keeping your

340
00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:08,920
eyes open and being somebody who
is a sponge and is learning. 

341
00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:13,240
Those are all the the keys to 
kind of building yourself up. 

342
00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:16,920
You know, I think everybody kind
of looks at us like, oh a cell 

343
00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:19,800
point engineer. 
They can make 6 figures. 

344
00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:23,560
I want to become a cell point 
engineer, but it's not really 

345
00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:25,599
that easy, right? 
You have to kind of pay your 

346
00:17:25,599 --> 00:17:29,320
dues So you know those entry 
level positions, you know they 

347
00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:32,840
might not look like cell point 
engineer that they may get your 

348
00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:34,960
foot in the door, give you the 
opportunity that where you're 

349
00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:37,520
getting a paycheck doing 
something close and you're 

350
00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:40,680
building the skills and then 
when they need somebody to step 

351
00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:44,760
up and do some more things, put 
yourself in that position. 

352
00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:47,400
What do you think, Jeff? 
Yeah, I think you've got to be 

353
00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:50,400
able to, you have to really 
invest your own time to this. 

354
00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:51,600
No one's going to hand this to 
you. 

355
00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:54,640
So I think you're going through 
training, you got to work your 

356
00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,720
network, try to find those, 
those entry level positions. 

357
00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:00,640
I think sometimes if you're 
doing like a career change or 

358
00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:02,800
career pivot, you got to be 
willing to take a step 

359
00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:04,960
backwards. 
If you don't know anything, no 

360
00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:07,680
one is going to pay you 6 
figures to do that work. 

361
00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:11,160
This doesn't happen, right. 
So you have to be able to take a

362
00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:12,280
step back and say OK why don't 
anything. 

363
00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:14,200
But I'm willing to invest the 
next couple years getting that 

364
00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,240
experience to that eventually 
get to you know, the higher 

365
00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:18,760
paying role or whatever it may 
be. 

366
00:18:19,120 --> 00:18:21,240
But I think you hit something 
very early on that I think is 

367
00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:24,040
important and that is the what 
do you want to be when you grow 

368
00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:26,560
up? 
Question because there's a lot 

369
00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:28,400
of different ways to get into 
the IM space. 

370
00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:30,560
There's technical and there's 
non-technical roles. 

371
00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:34,320
What do you want to do if it's a
technical role? 

372
00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:37,480
Well what does that even mean? 
Is it IGA? 

373
00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:38,960
Is it privilege access 
management? 

374
00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:42,400
Is it authentication, 
authorization, password lists, 

375
00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:44,920
verify credentials, 
decentralized right. 

376
00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:47,480
There's a lot of stuff to kind 
of know and kind of figure out 

377
00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,640
but I think you really have to 
kind of figure out where what do

378
00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:53,400
you think you want your role to 
be in the IM space? 

379
00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:56,400
If it's time to go, great, go 
out and do whatever self 

380
00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:58,760
learning you can, collect 
whatever certifications you can,

381
00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:01,320
you know try to find the entry 
level engineer role. 

382
00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:04,280
I think the ones that 
immediately come to mind if 

383
00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:07,320
you're looking for that kind of 
role is 2 consult is 2 areas. 

384
00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:10,800
The 1st is consulting. 
A lot of consulting shops are 

385
00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:15,600
looking for kind of entry level 
people to train up and develop 

386
00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,000
and sort of augment their more 
senior staff and that's 

387
00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:21,360
primarily around a cost basis. 
You can't have you know senior 

388
00:19:21,360 --> 00:19:23,880
level people doing all the work.
That's just it's very expensive 

389
00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:27,280
to do it that way. 
So you're always looking for you

390
00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:30,240
know, fresh talent to kind of 
come in and start to learn the 

391
00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:34,600
ropes and kind of offload some 
of the administrative things or 

392
00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:37,720
you know, basic configuration 
items that go on with any kind 

393
00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:40,200
of technologies. 
The other is actually going to 

394
00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:41,560
the technology companies 
themselves. 

395
00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:45,680
If you've, you know a lot of 
these folks are looking for 

396
00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:50,680
sales engineers and for Level 1 
supports and people they can 

397
00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:52,600
transfer themselves. 
So there's a a specific 

398
00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:53,800
technology that you're looking 
at. 

399
00:19:54,360 --> 00:19:56,080
Check out their website and see 
if they're hiring for those 

400
00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:58,400
types of roles. 
You know that's another option 

401
00:19:58,400 --> 00:19:59,520
that that you can take a look 
at. 

402
00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:02,800
But I really do think you kind 
of start with what are, what do 

403
00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:07,400
you want to be when you grow up 
in the IM space and then figure 

404
00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,880
out what you need to get there. 
The role that you start with may

405
00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:15,720
not be a 100% match, but if it 
puts you in position to either 

406
00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:18,720
get to that, you know whether 
it's with that company or in 

407
00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:20,960
others. 
I think you've got to figure 

408
00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:22,040
that out. 
And that's different for 

409
00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:23,480
everybody. 
Everyone's got a different. 

410
00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:25,160
Situation. 
I think there are also some 

411
00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:30,000
certain intangibles that if you 
have these things, you're more 

412
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:33,560
likely to get a position. 
I really want to be a part of a 

413
00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:36,280
team. 
I really like to encourage 

414
00:20:36,360 --> 00:20:39,160
others and, you know, provide 
leadership. 

415
00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,760
Wherever I have the ability to 
lead. 

416
00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:47,640
I don't feel like I need a title
to lead some of those, to tell 

417
00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:51,080
me those things. 
I'm like, this person's got the 

418
00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:54,760
right stuff now, Do they have 
enough technical skills to do 

419
00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:57,360
the job that I'm looking for? 
I don't know. 

420
00:20:57,360 --> 00:20:58,960
That might be a separate 
decision. 

421
00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:04,000
But if you can make the person 
know that, like you've got the 

422
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:10,160
right intangibles, you know, 
being a good team member, 

423
00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:15,120
looking for opportunities to 
lead, you know, I think those 

424
00:21:15,120 --> 00:21:17,480
are those are great things. 
Those are coming to me that 

425
00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:20,840
people don't hate you. 
All right, yeah, We just be a 

426
00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:24,320
decent human being. 
All right. 

427
00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:25,280
Should we move on to the next 
one? 

428
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:28,840
Let's do it. 
All right, so this one comes 

429
00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:31,920
from Alex Suarez. 
Hey Jim and Jeff, My name is 

430
00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:34,400
Alex Suarez and I am an I am 
domain Architect. 

431
00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:37,120
The question that I have is, 
given the increasing 

432
00:21:37,120 --> 00:21:39,840
complexities of each slice of 
Identity and Access Management, 

433
00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:43,160
should a single I AM Architect 
encompass the entire domain? 

434
00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:46,800
Meaning should an I am Domain 
Architect focus in all aspects 

435
00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:50,680
of Access Management, Pam, 
IGAMFA, etcetera? 

436
00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:53,400
And therefore could there be an 
opportunity to have an 

437
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,280
equivalent of an Enterprise 
Chief Architect role but solely 

438
00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:58,280
focus on the I am Domain as a 
whole? 

439
00:21:58,400 --> 00:21:59,760
What are your thoughts? 
Thank you. 

440
00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:01,760
Interesting question. 
What do you think, Jim? 

441
00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:06,320
Yeah, my initial reaction is 
different. 

442
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:11,200
Part of it's going to depend on 
what the organization needs, how

443
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:13,840
big their architecture group is,
things like that. 

444
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:18,520
I mean, Alex points out 
something that it's become very 

445
00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:21,120
obvious to me that the IM space 
is growing. 

446
00:22:21,360 --> 00:22:23,760
There's all these different 
domains, there's so much to 

447
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:26,160
know. 
I usually don't think that 

448
00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:30,920
architects need to know the 
intricacies of every technology 

449
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:34,560
that they're involved with. 
But I guess that would also 

450
00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:36,400
depend on the organization, 
right? 

451
00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:41,920
So if you are like a consulting 
organization, you really need to

452
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:45,840
provide expertise at the 
architect level for your 

453
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:48,440
clients. 
You do need to have a certain 

454
00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:52,040
level of expertise. 
If you're the architect at a 

455
00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:58,200
company, you probably have to be
more a Jack of all trades and 

456
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:00,960
and have a good understanding of
how these things work. 

457
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:05,240
So I think it kind of depends 
which is the consulting answer. 

458
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:09,200
You know if you're roll up your 
sleeves do I am every day you're

459
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:14,040
probably you might just focus on
access management or something 

460
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:18,360
like that or identity governance
for sure ITDR. 

461
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:22,320
But I think if you're working 
for a firm that you know it's 

462
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:26,520
like a say GE or a bank or 
something like that, you're 

463
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:28,280
probably going to have to have a
broader scope. 

464
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:32,720
It's just they just don't have 
enough architects to, you know, 

465
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,680
specialize too much. 
Yeah, I like the I hate to say 

466
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:36,840
it, but I like the depends 
asset. 

467
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:38,960
It depends answer and that's 
what kind of mind is. 

468
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:43,720
Is there enough of work to 
support someone working only as 

469
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,760
an identity architect? 
And that's got to be a massive 

470
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:48,080
organization. 
It's got. 

471
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:51,760
Or maybe it's a massive identity
footprint that you're trying to 

472
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:54,600
pull together. 
I like the idea of it, but I 

473
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:56,960
don't know if I necessarily see 
it in the real world yet. 

474
00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:00,800
Maybe as we move things along 
and identity becomes more. 

475
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:05,040
Larger. 
You know, more spread out across

476
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:06,560
the organization, maybe some 
things like that. 

477
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:11,080
But I find it difficult right 
now to say, OK, I only focus on 

478
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:14,800
identity architecture. 
That might be a focus for a 

479
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,160
couple weeks, a couple months, 
maybe a year as you're kind of 

480
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,400
standing something up. 
But once you've got the 

481
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:23,120
architecture in place, then 
what, like what do you do? 

482
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:25,880
As I say, it goes back to the 
question of like is there enough

483
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:30,240
work to support someone working 
only on identity architecture 

484
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:33,840
for five years, 10 years? 
I don't know. 

485
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,920
I think you'd have to be a 
really massive identity product.

486
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:40,120
I could see maybe something like
that at like you know a meta, a 

487
00:24:40,120 --> 00:24:44,160
Google, large ID, PS Microsoft, 
right? 

488
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,360
Things like that. 
A normal organization, probably 

489
00:24:47,360 --> 00:24:48,560
not. 
And I say normal. 

490
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:52,600
Just meaning identity is not 
their secret sauce. 

491
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:54,800
It's not their products, right? 
To deliver to others. 

492
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,560
Maybe a massive e-commerce type 
thing maybe something like 

493
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:03,640
Amazon you know might have 
something like that but I think 

494
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:06,640
it's an interesting conversation
and and then should a chief IM 

495
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:08,400
architect exist. 
I think the second part of the 

496
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:12,000
question again kind of goes back
to is there enough work to 

497
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,680
support that? 
What does a chief identity 

498
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:18,240
architect do? 
That means are there sub chiefs 

499
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,560
right, Are there other identity 
identity architects and there's 

500
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:23,400
one person who's kind of like in
charge of all those. 

501
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,320
I mean that to my my mind is 
like how much how big is your 

502
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:30,080
identity architecture to 
multiple people in a long term 

503
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,160
role to keep that up and 
running? 

504
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:36,280
I think if you have an identity 
consulting firm, you definitely 

505
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:37,920
could have that kind of 
structure, right? 

506
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,360
I mean, we worked at a company 
where there were several cell 

507
00:25:41,360 --> 00:25:44,520
point architects, so you could 
see something, but they were. 

508
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:48,560
Focused on cell point, right. 
Yeah, that's all they did. 

509
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:51,240
Yeah, Yep. 
But we also had people who were 

510
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:57,600
architects in access management.
So I yeah this is one of those 

511
00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:01,520
depends on, So sorry Alex. 
Yeah, I hate to say it depends. 

512
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:04,960
I think if you understand the 
identity space and you're able 

513
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:10,400
to combine architectures and 
understand how authorization, 

514
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:12,680
authentication, privilege, 
access, identity, governance, 

515
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,880
ITDR, you know all that stuff 
kind of comes together. 

516
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,760
I think that's great that 
obviously, you know, makes I 

517
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:20,400
think it's very valuable to have
that skill. 

518
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:21,560
I just don't know if there's 
enough. 

519
00:26:22,120 --> 00:26:24,760
That's a question only your your
organization can answer, right? 

520
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:28,320
Is there enough work where you 
only focus on identity 

521
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,960
architecture? 
Maybe there is and I'm happy to 

522
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:32,760
be wrong because I would 
definitely want to promote the 

523
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,080
identity space, but I I just 
haven't seen it yet where 

524
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,680
there's been one dedicated 
identity architect. 

525
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:43,560
Usually it's a shared architect 
type role where they they know 

526
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:45,760
the identity side but they also 
know some the other things going

527
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:49,000
within the organization. 
Yeah, like an infosec architect 

528
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,760
who also understands like the 
logging architecture, because 

529
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:58,040
look at itdr, it's it straddles 
that line between identity and 

530
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:00,280
threat detection. 
All right. 

531
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:04,120
Next up we've got Tim Ritter, so
here he goes. 

532
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:08,400
Jim and Jeff, Tim Ritter from 
Cloud Identity wishing you guys 

533
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,640
a great 2024. 
I'm sure you guys have great 

534
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,360
plans both personally, 
professionally and with the 

535
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,640
podcast here, but wanted to 
touch on the hiring front. 

536
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,800
Cloud Identity, obviously a 
global leader in IAM and Pam 

537
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:26,280
staffing and some advice for 
people looking out there. 

538
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,080
If you do have your current 
role, be grateful. 

539
00:27:29,120 --> 00:27:32,560
Layoffs have created fierce 
competition for roles for 

540
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:36,040
numbers as everyone is seen on 
LinkedIn, and now is definitely 

541
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,600
not the time to be looking for 
that dream job. 

542
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,840
If you need income right now, 
utilize your skill sets and look

543
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,360
at rules. 
That may not be exactly what 

544
00:27:45,360 --> 00:27:49,240
you're looking for if you do 
need income, but the good news 

545
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:53,040
is, is our clients have projects
starting and we're seeing 

546
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,200
identity projects throughout the
landscape that are getting under

547
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,600
way. 
So we're anticipating around 

548
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,560
Q3Q4. 
You know, there'll be a good 

549
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,520
flow again on the hiring front 
within the sector. 

550
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,160
But my question for you guys is 
with all these breaches 

551
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:11,560
happening in the introduction of
AI, what do you think the most 

552
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:15,080
influential roles will be inside
for 2024? 

553
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,000
Is it the SISO? 
Is it our technical talent, 

554
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:20,320
functional leadership? 
I'd like to hear your guys 

555
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:24,800
opinion, but again wishing you 
guys all the best for 2024 and 

556
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,880
hopefully she you either at 
Gertner, IAM or Identiverse. 

557
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:29,160
Take care guys. 
All right. 

558
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,280
So Tim's a friend of the show, 
definitely stuck a commercial in

559
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,840
there, but we'll allow it. 
Anything that gets Identity 

560
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,360
people up and working and 
employed, I'm in favor of. 

561
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:41,280
I think the first part of his 
statement really is kind of like

562
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:43,920
the job market and competition 
and things like out there. 

563
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,880
I mean, I think that's it's a 
very competitive market that 

564
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:48,120
we're in. 
Identity, I think there's always

565
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:51,440
people looking for folks, but I 
definitely agree that it we've 

566
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,200
seen a little bit of a slowdown 
with organizations taking a step

567
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,280
back. 
You know there's been layoffs 

568
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:58,600
have taken place you know within
the identity space as well. 

569
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,440
So I think I'm encouraged by it.
I think the last year a lot of 

570
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:04,600
this was driven by the economy, 
especially the first half of the

571
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,560
year in the US and starting to 
see that pick up. 

572
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:11,080
So a lot of things that people 
really want to get started maybe

573
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:14,440
in first, second quarter of 
2023, they kind of had to punt 

574
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,200
for a little bit, figure out 
what the US economy is going to 

575
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:21,600
do and it seems like Q4 and then
now we're into Q1 of 2024, I'm 

576
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:23,280
definitely starting to see that 
pick up as well. 

577
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,920
So totally get that. 
As far as the influential roles 

578
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:31,000
when it comes to AI, and I am, 
what do you think, Jim? 

579
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,880
Well, yeah. 
First I did want to say like I 

580
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,920
thought that was a good input 
from Tim. 

581
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,240
You know, as far as like here's 
the state of the current job 

582
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,080
market, but he sees a pick up 
coming. 

583
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,880
That would be great news. 
You're still seeing layoffs, but

584
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,200
that was big reason why we 
wanted to play this question was

585
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,600
like there's a tidbit of 
information from somebody who's 

586
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:59,600
actively, you know, looking to 
place people all the time as far

587
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:01,600
as kind of those influential 
roles. 

588
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:05,400
I I still think, you know, as 
far as AI, let me put that off 

589
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,840
to the side for a second. 
I still think that it's the CISO

590
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:13,320
who has access to the board and 
has to keep educating them on 

591
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:17,760
this evolving threat landscape. 
Organizations cannot just take a

592
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:21,600
hiatus from investing in 
informational security. 

593
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:25,280
And what at least what I'm 
seeing is that I we've been 

594
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:27,960
calling Identity at the center 
of this podcast has been going 

595
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:31,480
for nearly five years, but it 
just becomes more true every 

596
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,680
year. 
The investments in the identity 

597
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:41,760
landscape need to continue. 
In fact they need to increase. 

598
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:48,000
So it's those Csos and them 
being able to influence and help

599
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,360
the board understand that this 
is a real threat to the 

600
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,040
business. 
I mean being shut down for a 

601
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:58,040
couple of days or a week, it's 
kind of like a, a death knell 

602
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:02,760
for a lot of organizations. 
So putting money into that is, 

603
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:05,800
it really is an investment. 
It's not FUD factor either. 

604
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:10,120
I mean, we've seen organizations
that, you know, go offline for 

605
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:13,640
several days when they they 
suffer a massive breach. 

606
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:18,080
So I think they're influential, 
but everybody's influential. 

607
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:21,240
You know, the, the engineers, 
the architects, they have a 

608
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:25,560
voice within the organization. 
They need to be letting the see 

609
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:27,160
so know, here's what we're 
seeing. 

610
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:30,280
This is what's happening. 
This is, you know, the state of 

611
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:35,720
affairs that we're in. 
You know, as far as like AI, the

612
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:42,080
the impact of AII think is going
to probably impact engineering, 

613
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,120
the engineering and operations 
the most. 

614
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:49,920
Because the role I see AI 
playing in identity is that we 

615
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:54,080
can do more with fewer people. 
So we can, you know, manage 

616
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:58,080
bigger landscapes, you know, or 
say, with the same number of 

617
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,760
people, keep the same number of 
people, but basically have the 

618
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:05,040
software be able to do more and 
accomplish more. 

619
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:08,960
And rather than taking a year to
roll out a software platform, 

620
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,680
maybe it only takes a couple of 
months, right? 

621
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:15,520
There's still more to technology
rollouts than just technology. 

622
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,440
There's communication, there's 
user training, things like that.

623
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:24,360
But I see AI impacting all those
areas and making it easier to 

624
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:28,040
communicate effectively, to 
train people as well as to 

625
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,160
manage complex systems at a 
larger scale. 

626
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:35,240
Yeah, you hit everything that I 
was going to say he wants to add

627
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:37,000
other than. 
I slow your Thunder. 

628
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:39,600
Yeah, you totally did. 
And I I think you were thinking 

629
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,880
alike on this one. 
You know, influence in an 

630
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:45,280
organization takes many shapes 
and forms. 

631
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:49,560
So whether you are the CSO or 
you are an engineer, an 

632
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:53,440
individual contributor or part 
of the board, I think being 

633
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:59,920
aware of how it's impacting not 
only you know life at large, but

634
00:32:59,920 --> 00:33:02,640
specifically for your 
organization, How are you going 

635
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:06,000
to be able to leverage the 
capabilities that it has? 

636
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,240
What are the threats that you 
see that you need to defend 

637
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:13,120
against? 
I think it's, I think it's an 

638
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:16,120
important area. 
It's definitely going to change 

639
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,880
the way that Identity works for 
on a number of fronts. 

640
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:22,920
You know, my we've talked about 
this before is how am I going to

641
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:27,400
use AI to configure or set up 
connections between maybe you 

642
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:32,000
know different applications. 
Hey, I use a, you know, natural 

643
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,920
language interface and it's 
using large language models to 

644
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:39,480
convert my basic statement of I 
want to connect this to that, do

645
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:43,160
it right and it it it's able to 
kind of infer that. 

646
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,120
How do you know that it's doing 
it correctly? 

647
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:48,920
Is it configured? 
Is it set up and secured 

648
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:49,640
correctly? 
Right. 

649
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:51,360
Things like that. 
I think that's still the area 

650
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:54,920
where I I would imagine, 
especially engineers in this 

651
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:56,480
area are really going to take a 
look at. 

652
00:33:56,480 --> 00:34:01,720
Can you trust the model or the 
AI or whatever it is to do it 

653
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:04,320
correctly and to keep doing it 
correctly? 

654
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,000
And when it doesn't do it 
correctly, why did it do it 

655
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,000
wrong? 
What did it do wrong, and how do

656
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:10,560
you correct that behavior going 
forward? 

657
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:13,560
And then, you know, I think that
trickles up. 

658
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:16,639
But obviously you know as you as
engineers are talking amongst 

659
00:34:16,639 --> 00:34:18,840
themselves and they're working 
maybe with the CSO or maybe 

660
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:21,239
they're working with the board, 
right, whatever it is, I think 

661
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:23,360
that influence goes up front. 
But I think we've got to make 

662
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:26,159
sure that we don't get stuck in 
the fun factor, you know fear, 

663
00:34:26,159 --> 00:34:30,719
uncertainty and doubt is let's 
be honest and open about the 

664
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:34,120
benefits and the negatives, you 
know, that will come come with 

665
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:37,679
us and be prepared for it. 
So I think that's, I think 

666
00:34:37,679 --> 00:34:39,719
that's the only thing that I'll 
kind of add to what you just 

667
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,679
said. 
All right, let's get to Pedro's 

668
00:34:42,679 --> 00:34:43,880
next. 
I like his question. 

669
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,239
So let's Harriet. 
Hi I'm Pedro, I'm a Service 

670
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,920
security architect based in 
Brazil and specialized in IAM 

671
00:34:51,199 --> 00:34:56,080
and my question is regarding 
regarding ITDRI would like to 

672
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:58,800
know if there's a better 
solution to my ITDR 

673
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:04,240
implementation in ways like is 
it it would be more recommended 

674
00:35:04,240 --> 00:35:09,600
for me to use my ITDR 
capabilities of my IEM solution 

675
00:35:09,720 --> 00:35:14,720
for example using Microsoft 
Intra Identity Protection as as 

676
00:35:14,720 --> 00:35:18,680
part of the Microsoft Intra 
Solution suite. 

677
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:25,000
Or would be better if I have a 
dedicated ITDR solution to to 

678
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:31,760
monitor all my all my my IEM in 
in spam solutions? 

679
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:37,480
Or even or even if it would be a
good approach to have both 

680
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:41,800
solutions working together using
my native capabilities of my IEM

681
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:47,200
solution and my my dedicated 
solution of ITDR? 

682
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:49,880
Thanks. 
I think this is a question that 

683
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,960
everyone struggles with is do 
you use what you've already got 

684
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:55,960
and do, or do you need to get 
something else? 

685
00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:00,320
Or maybe some combination go you
go first Jim. 

686
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:03,760
OK. 
Well, we weren't talking about 

687
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:08,040
ITDR 2 years ago. 
Now it's like all we can talk 

688
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:10,560
about. 
And I'm really bullish on my 

689
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:14,080
TDR. 
But how many ITDR solutions 

690
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:17,520
exist today? 
There are a lot of them. 

691
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:19,400
I'll just say there's more than 
a dozen. 

692
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:23,840
And so you you think you're so 
OK, Well two years from now, how

693
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:28,440
many were the will there be? 
I think part of it is Pedro hit 

694
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:32,440
on a great point is that a lot 
of products are now being built 

695
00:36:32,720 --> 00:36:36,560
with ITDR features. 
And when I think about TDR 

696
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:40,960
features, I think of two things.
One is looking at your identity 

697
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:44,360
system and when we talk about 
built in, I'm just going to say 

698
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:48,360
system, I'm not going to say 
systems because if you're say 

699
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:52,200
running Octa and you're 
leveraging what they're 

700
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,720
developing from an ITVR 
perspective, it's not going to 

701
00:36:55,720 --> 00:37:01,880
also work against your like your
cell point system or your cyber 

702
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,160
arc system, right. 
It's just going to work for just

703
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:07,400
Okta. 
It's going to look at like how 

704
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,000
vulnerable is your system 
configured? 

705
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:15,680
Do you have certain patterns 
that are well known that could 

706
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:19,520
be attacked, but it's also 
looking at, from a life 

707
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:23,880
perspective, what's happening in
the environment, how the 

708
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:30,160
identity system being used And 
are you potentially hitting on 

709
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:36,200
suspicious behaviors. 
That action needs to be taken 

710
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,240
like the response. 
In other words, we detect that 

711
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:41,720
it looks like some hackers 
trying to use one of the 

712
00:37:41,720 --> 00:37:46,200
accounts and we're going to 
respond by you know disabling 

713
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:51,560
that account etcetera. 
So again like specific solution 

714
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:55,240
built just for that identity 
system is going to be just for 

715
00:37:55,240 --> 00:37:57,720
that identity system. 
And if you're looking at the 

716
00:37:57,720 --> 00:38:02,240
true ITDR that are I should say 
a standalone ITDR that's 

717
00:38:02,240 --> 00:38:06,520
independent of an underlying 
product, then it should cover 

718
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:08,640
essentially all of your identity
system. 

719
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,320
So it really depends on the 
position that you're in. 

720
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:16,320
I I suppose I haven't gotten far
enough down that path to say 

721
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:19,680
whether or not and I think a lot
of the ones that are being built

722
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:23,760
into products are not at the 
maturity level that a dedicated 

723
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:27,520
product would be. 
So I kind of think you're going 

724
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:29,600
to do both, right. 
You're not going to ignore the 

725
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:33,800
features that your system has, 
but they're probably not going 

726
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:38,680
to be enough for just their own 
product but also for you know 

727
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:40,560
products outside of that 
product. 

728
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:43,280
So that's what my answer would 
be. 

729
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:47,160
Both. 
Your answer is both, so having 

730
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:51,920
both technologies in place to 
cover everything essentially. 

731
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:55,880
Yeah, I think you need an ITDR 
to do ITDR things. 

732
00:38:55,880 --> 00:39:00,480
But if your system has ITDR 
capabilities, like if you have 

733
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:03,240
Octa and it has ITDR 
capabilities, you should not 

734
00:39:03,240 --> 00:39:06,520
ignore those. 
It's kind of like Microsoft has 

735
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:11,040
privilege identity management. 
OK, so should you get a 

736
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:13,880
privilege identity or privilege 
access management system? 

737
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:16,880
Well, you need it for everything
else other than the Microsoft 

738
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:19,240
stuff, right? 
But if you do have one of those,

739
00:39:19,240 --> 00:39:21,760
does that mean you don't use the
Microsoft privilege identity 

740
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:22,920
management? 
No. 

741
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:26,000
You can use both, right? 
They can all fit into one 

742
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:28,720
program. 
So I kind of see it in a similar

743
00:39:28,720 --> 00:39:30,440
fashion. 
This stuff costs money. 

744
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:35,360
So before you add a new tool and
see if I read, how do you 

745
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:37,560
justify that sort of thing? 
Because this stuff isn't isn't 

746
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:39,280
cheap. 
You know, if you're, we're 

747
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:42,000
talking specifically about 
Entra, if you're a 100% 

748
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:45,520
Microsoft shop and you can live 
in that world, yeah, go for it. 

749
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:48,920
I'm, you know, everything's 
taking place from a Microsoft 

750
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:50,600
perspective. 
It's probably a good fit. 

751
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:53,280
If you've got stuff that bleeds 
out of that, I think you got to 

752
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:58,840
decide, is it worth the cost to 
add another technology into your

753
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:00,600
environment. 
You're going to have to pay 

754
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:03,520
licensing fees, You're going to 
spend money to get it up and 

755
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:06,200
running, and then you're going 
to spend time and resources 

756
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:08,480
monitoring. 
Yet another thing. 

757
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:10,840
Does Entra feed into that tool? 
Maybe. 

758
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,560
Maybe it doesn't. 
I think there are. 

759
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:17,840
Opportunities here for, you 
know, thinking about it from a 

760
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:21,920
smart spend perspective, yeah, 
if you have 80% coverage through

761
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:25,320
Entra, great, Is it worth it to 
go that extra 20%? 

762
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:28,760
I think all you can decide, I 
think you need to figure out is 

763
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:32,600
the business going to justify 
the spend to cover that 

764
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:34,560
additional 20%. 
And those are just arbitrary 

765
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:36,720
numbers, right? 
Maybe Entra is only 25% of your 

766
00:40:36,720 --> 00:40:38,160
environment. 
And yeah, you definitely do need

767
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:41,320
something else, you know, to 
collect things without really 

768
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:43,400
knowing the details on the 
architecture side of things and 

769
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:47,000
kind of what use cases you're 
looking to address or are at 

770
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:49,360
least covered through the 
Microsoft stack, what are the 

771
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:51,480
gaps that come out of it? 
It's just been my experience 

772
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:54,160
that if you are, if you're all 
in a Microsoft, that's really 

773
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:56,240
the only thing you're using. 
Yeah, they've got great tools 

774
00:40:56,240 --> 00:40:57,760
and you should absolutely be 
leveraging it. 

775
00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:01,160
Don't go and spend money just 
because it's, you know, the hot 

776
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:05,880
kind of thing right now. 
Save that, you know save that 

777
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:09,400
conversation and over that that 
budget for other things in a 

778
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:11,360
space. 
Have have you gone password list

779
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:13,240
yet? 
Have you implemented session 

780
00:41:13,240 --> 00:41:15,400
monitoring, recording in the 
privilege access management 

781
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:17,360
space? 
You know have you automated 

782
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:19,280
onboarding, offboarding like all
this other stuff. 

783
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:22,280
So I think there's other things 
to think about as well. 

784
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:24,680
I don't like spending money just
to spend money. 

785
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:26,480
You know, this is, you know, a 
conversation we have all the 

786
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:30,160
time. 
But if there truly is a gap, is 

787
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:32,360
it justified or not? 
I don't know. 

788
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:34,600
I think that's. 
I think that's my answer is I 

789
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:36,880
don't know. 
Only you can really decide that 

790
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:39,760
because it's if it's a small 
gap, you might be OK with 

791
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:41,840
accepting that risk. 
That might be OK, right. 

792
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:43,960
Maybe there's a manual way to 
kind of close the loop. 

793
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:48,000
But if it's critical to your 
business, if it's maybe you got 

794
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:50,080
a history of security issues, 
right, things like that. 

795
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:52,520
You just have the visibility. 
Yeah, maybe it's worth it. 

796
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:56,800
I can see certain industries, 
you know, are are more prone to 

797
00:41:57,280 --> 00:41:59,480
attacks and therefore need to be
more secure. 

798
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:02,080
They are the place as well, 
especially, you know, finance 

799
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:06,440
for example, regulations, you 
know that they have to, yeah, 

800
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:09,080
adhere to and stuff like that. 
Yeah, we don't disagree much. 

801
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:12,360
I think we do disagree on this, 
but I think it's because we're 

802
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:14,520
looking at it from different 
contexts. 

803
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:19,000
I think we you're right for a 
small organization that's all in

804
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:26,680
on Entra and it's covering 8580%
plus of all authentication, you 

805
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:27,760
might be able to get by with 
that. 

806
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:31,320
I'd say first, well you know, is
this just checkbox compliance 

807
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:37,680
ITDR or is it like a true, you 
know, full-featured ITDR for 

808
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:40,600
intra. 
The second thing I would look at

809
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:44,240
is like I've worked with a lot 
of organizations where their 

810
00:42:44,240 --> 00:42:46,760
management of privilege access 
management is very 

811
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:49,160
decentralized. 
In other words, things that are 

812
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:53,280
integrated with the Windows 
environment are very much like, 

813
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:56,360
yeah, you've got to use your 
Windows environment to get 

814
00:42:56,840 --> 00:43:00,880
privilege access. 
They're still sending standing 

815
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:03,920
privileges, but you know, put 
that off to the side for now. 

816
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:06,680
But then there's other pockets 
that are very important where 

817
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:09,880
you have like standalone 
accounts and databases are in 

818
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:14,080
the cloud. 
And you know, maybe you have 15 

819
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:16,480
different pockets where 
privilege exists. 

820
00:43:16,720 --> 00:43:21,440
And I think potentially that's 
where ITTR could give you a way 

821
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:27,880
to have some central program of 
privilege management without 

822
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:31,680
having centralized command and 
control. 

823
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:34,680
You know when when you're in one
of those environments and like 

824
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:39,080
your mandate isn't centralized 
command and control, but at the 

825
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:41,200
same time you have 
responsibility to keep the 

826
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:44,640
environment secure. 
Monitoring is a fantastic way to

827
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:46,880
do that. 
And I think standard monitoring 

828
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:52,720
of like monitoring you know 
security logs and IP based 

829
00:43:52,720 --> 00:43:57,320
events, it's just far short of 
the modern threat landscape 

830
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:00,600
which is much more focused on 
identity based threats. 

831
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:04,120
Where in other words I saw a 
statistic the other day was like

832
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:08,200
42,000,000 credentials for sale 
on the dark web. 

833
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:10,960
It's like what and? 
They're probably like $6. 

834
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:14,040
Yeah, and they're cheap. 
They're cheap, right? 

835
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:16,280
And if they don't work, then you
get your money back. 

836
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:19,720
I doubt Bitcoin. 
Yeah, I don't. 

837
00:44:19,720 --> 00:44:21,800
I don't know if there's a 
there's a money back guarantee 

838
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:24,800
on stolen credentials. 
I look at it from a business 

839
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:26,760
perspective. 
You want to spend money? 

840
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:28,880
Tell me what I'm going to get 
for that money. 

841
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:31,400
Is it reduction of risk? 
How are you going to use the 

842
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:32,680
tools? 
They. 

843
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:35,440
A lot of organizations buy tools
just because and then they send 

844
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:37,600
on a shelf or they don't get 
full value out of it. 

845
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:39,960
I'm in. 
Look, if you've got the budget, 

846
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:42,880
go for it, right. 
I'll never say no to adding more

847
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:45,800
capabilities, but just be 
careful about adding 

848
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:49,280
capabilities that don't get ever
get used and unwise spend. 

849
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:52,000
Just make sure you've got a good
story and a good understanding 

850
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:54,040
of what you're getting into and 
how are you going to give those,

851
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:56,920
how are you going to use those 
tools in your environment, you 

852
00:44:56,920 --> 00:44:58,400
know, demonstrate the value. 
All right. 

853
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:01,840
Next up we've got Chris Power, 
another friend of the show. 

854
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:05,080
He actually sent in a couple. 
So this is kind of a a good way 

855
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:09,600
to get like you know, 3 for one.
The first one was wrong goals. 

856
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:10,880
So I'll play that here. 
Hi. 

857
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:13,040
Jeff and Jim. 
I love your podcast. 

858
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:16,480
This is Chris Power. 
We've talked many times at a 

859
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:20,280
couple conferences and really 
appreciate the insights that you

860
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:23,960
give us. 
My question for the day is it is

861
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:29,120
goal setting season for most of 
us in January, both on a 

862
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:33,160
personal level as well as on a 
department level. 

863
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:37,600
I would love to see what you 
think is the most impactful 

864
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:43,680
goals in the identity space for 
both people as a individual as 

865
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:46,680
well as teams as a whole. 
I hope this comes in as a good 

866
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:48,320
question. 
And. 

867
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:49,960
Look forward to hearing your 
answers. 

868
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:52,040
Well, it definitely comes in as 
a good question. 

869
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:53,360
I think this is you're totally 
right. 

870
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:56,040
I think a lot of organizations 
operate on like a calendar year 

871
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:58,600
and say all right, you know, go 
into whatever your system is and

872
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:03,440
start setting up your goals. 
Jim, what are your personal and 

873
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:06,720
professional goals for this? 
Like what do you for the 

874
00:46:06,720 --> 00:46:08,560
identity space? 
Like what have you thought about

875
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:10,640
you know, what is your next year
look like yet? 

876
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:15,240
Yeah. 
So I think going into, you know,

877
00:46:15,240 --> 00:46:22,000
when I set my my work goals, I 
tried to set goals that I feel 

878
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:26,480
like are, you know, high 
likelihood that I will achieve 

879
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:29,000
them. 
Because, I mean, who wants to 

880
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:32,400
have that conversation with your
career advisor at the end of the

881
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:33,600
year? 
And you haven't achieved your 

882
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:36,240
goals, so that would so try to 
set. 

883
00:46:36,240 --> 00:46:39,360
This is the art of low bar goal 
HR. 

884
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:42,080
You know HR goal setting, right?
You got to pick something that's

885
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:45,520
like good but attainable, right?
Because you don't want to miss 

886
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:46,800
those, not. 
Sandbagging. 

887
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:50,800
But you know what I mean. 
For personal goals though, I 

888
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:54,680
think it's good to make them, 
you know, aggressive. 

889
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:58,080
I think that you should be 
thinking about big things and 

890
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:03,400
you know, I've got a, you know, 
a lot of goals for the podcast 

891
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:06,000
and getting out there and 
building my network. 

892
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:08,880
I think building your network is
probably one of the biggest 

893
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:12,720
investments you can make in 
yourself, going out, meeting 

894
00:47:12,720 --> 00:47:15,120
people and and doing it in a 
genuine way. 

895
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:17,720
If you're, if you're not 
comfortable just, you know, 

896
00:47:17,720 --> 00:47:22,400
going and introducing yourself 
and I mean look you you're going

897
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:25,640
to face some rejection, right? 
And that's unfortunate, but 

898
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:28,120
that's part of, you know, going 
out there. 

899
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:32,000
But I think you'll face a lot 
less rejection then you think 

900
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:35,720
you're going to. 
You just go up and like you 

901
00:47:35,720 --> 00:47:38,440
know, insert yourself in a 
conversation or just stand it. 

902
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:40,920
You know, there's Circle people 
there seeing Glazer and some 

903
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:45,400
other Identity folks that I 
follow on LinkedIn. 

904
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:47,920
And you know, I'm, I'm not at 
their level. 

905
00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:52,600
I mean, I kind of had some of 
those thoughts early on, right? 

906
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:55,480
Like, but then when you go and 
you stand there and you meet the

907
00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:59,240
people who are, they're totally 
normal people and very 

908
00:47:59,240 --> 00:48:01,160
welcoming. 
So to me. 

909
00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:03,760
And quotation marks. 
Let's put that we got some real 

910
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:06,480
weirdos in the space. 
There there's sure. 

911
00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:09,240
There's, and I, and I mean that 
in a fun, jest, jesting way. 

912
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:12,360
Absolutely, But you might 
consider yourself a weirdo. 

913
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:14,200
So. 
I'm definitely weirdo for sure. 

914
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:18,000
Yeah, but welcoming is is 
definitely true. 

915
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:21,480
And the more I reach out for 
guests for this podcast, I mean,

916
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:25,520
I I can't, I can probably count 
on one hand the number of times 

917
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:29,240
I've been rejected by people to 
be a guest on the podcast. 

918
00:48:29,240 --> 00:48:33,080
And you got to remember at one 
point we probably had like 50 

919
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:36,160
subscribers, you know, I mean, 
so it was zero. 

920
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:38,760
Yeah, we started with 0. 
Sure. 

921
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:42,800
So anyway, that's my goal is to,
you know, build my network is 

922
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:43,920
probably one of the biggest 
ones. 

923
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:46,120
And I really want to see the 
podcast. 

924
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:50,160
You know, we we doubled our 
listenership every year since 

925
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:53,280
we've been around. 
Jeff, I want to do that again 

926
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:55,240
this year. 
It gets harder every year, 

927
00:48:55,240 --> 00:48:56,400
right? 
Because the number gets bigger 

928
00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:58,600
doubling it. 
At some point we'll have 

929
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:00,600
critical mass too. 
It's like there's only there's 

930
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:02,240
only so many people who are 
interested in identity. 

931
00:49:02,240 --> 00:49:05,840
Eventually get to 8 billion and 
you're like, wait, everybody on 

932
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:07,680
Earth listens to identity at the
center. 

933
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:11,120
Yeah, my goal is to show up in 
Google News as having signed an 

934
00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:16,720
exclusive $250 million contract 
with, you know, some audio firm 

935
00:49:16,720 --> 00:49:21,280
right to do the podcast. 
What's a good goal for the Yeah,

936
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:23,080
that's that's a good goal for a 
team. 

937
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:27,000
So if I'm an IAM team, what's a 
goal that I would be setting? 

938
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:31,040
Like what's impactful to 
improving IAM in an 

939
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:33,080
organization? 
Well, it's got to be about the 

940
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:35,320
business, right. 
You got to achieve things for 

941
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:38,560
the business. 
I think you can have like I mean

942
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:41,440
look we all want to have team 
building exercise and everything

943
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:44,560
and those are important. 
But I don't really think those 

944
00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:47,840
would be goals that you would 
set that that Chris was talking 

945
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:49,800
about. 
But I think like achieving 

946
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:53,720
things that are actually 
impactful for the business would

947
00:49:53,720 --> 00:49:56,360
be right. 
And I think you know trying to 

948
00:49:56,880 --> 00:50:01,640
focus it on like improvements 
and metrics that are actually 

949
00:50:01,720 --> 00:50:04,560
you can measure against, I think
that's important. 

950
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:07,240
What were you thinking about? 
I guess I was thinking about it 

951
00:50:07,240 --> 00:50:09,440
for like a maybe a capability 
standpoint. 

952
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:12,120
We keep hearing about everybody 
hates the password. 

953
00:50:12,240 --> 00:50:16,120
Set a goal, go password less, 
enable it for some population. 

954
00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:18,800
I feel like that's low hanging 
fruit at this point. 

955
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:21,960
It's built into a lot of the ID 
PS that a lot of us are using 

956
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:24,600
already. 
There are specific tools and 

957
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:27,200
vendors out there that offer, 
you know, maybe enhanced 

958
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:30,600
versions of that. 
But let's stop talking about how

959
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:32,600
much we hate it and actually 
like, start fixing it. 

960
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:35,320
I don't know anybody who's like,
Oh yeah, you want to take my 

961
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:36,760
password away and make it easy 
for me to log in. 

962
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:39,160
Please don't do that. 
And if you've got the funding 

963
00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:41,600
and you've got you know, the 
right, you know, team in place, 

964
00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:43,640
go for it. 
Even if it's just for like a 

965
00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:45,760
small group, prove it out, Show 
that it works. 

966
00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:48,920
You know, work work the, you 
know the issues out of the 

967
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:52,200
process so that you're ready to 
go live with more people. 

968
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:54,240
I think that's a that's a team 
goal. 

969
00:50:54,240 --> 00:50:56,400
I think I'd like to see more 
people is take advantage of it 

970
00:50:56,400 --> 00:51:00,000
is take advantage of things like
passkeys and Fido and you know 

971
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:01,320
the work that's been done in 
that area. 

972
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:04,120
Look at how you're going to help
the business. 

973
00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:06,520
Go password list. 
Nobody likes it. 

974
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:11,240
So stop talking and do something
individually. 

975
00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:14,240
You know, I think this is kind 
of a tough question. 

976
00:51:14,240 --> 00:51:18,720
Does everyone has whatever they 
want to, you know, work on and 

977
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:23,680
the I think you have to decide 
what is going to help you 

978
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:25,800
individually from a professional
standpoint. 

979
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:31,040
It might be technical training. 
It might be, you know, speaking.

980
00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:33,840
It might be communications. 
It might be writing. 

981
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:36,360
I think if you're going to be 
well-rounded and really move 

982
00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:39,720
forward in your career, you do 
need to be able to communicate. 

983
00:51:39,720 --> 00:51:42,760
You do need to be able to come 
and comfortable to talk in front

984
00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:44,760
of people. 
You need to have domain 

985
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:47,920
expertise. 
You know, which of those things 

986
00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:49,880
do you need to work on? 
Again, you've got to kind of 

987
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:53,160
pick with this, but I think, you
know, be your own worst critic 

988
00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:54,680
and say, OK, well, how can I get
better at that? 

989
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:58,160
What are things that I need to 
be doing to improve this aspect 

990
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:01,040
of it? 
I never wanted to talk in front 

991
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:03,840
of people, whatever. 
And, you know, here we are, 

992
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:06,400
we're doing a podcast for, you 
know, billions of people around 

993
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:09,760
the around the Galaxy. 
And, you know, that's not 

994
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:11,400
something that I ever thought 
that I would be doing. 

995
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:12,560
Am I great at it? 
I don't. 

996
00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:15,080
I I think I'm OK. 
But you don't get better. 

997
00:52:15,240 --> 00:52:16,200
Yeah. 
Thank you very much. 

998
00:52:16,200 --> 00:52:18,960
I appreciate your natural 
check's in the mail, but I think

999
00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:21,240
this is an area where you get 
better the more you do it, get 

1000
00:52:21,240 --> 00:52:23,480
reps doing it right. 
The people that we see on stage 

1001
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:27,320
is at Identiverse at Gartner. 
They started in the same boat. 

1002
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:30,560
It was, you know, there are 
certain people who are naturally

1003
00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:32,440
gifted and others that have to 
work at it. 

1004
00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:35,960
I'm in the latter category and 
that's just one example. 

1005
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:37,960
You know, if it's technology 
based, you'll get a 

1006
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:40,480
certification. 
If you are looking to get more 

1007
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:43,880
advanced and identity, is there 
a specific tool or technology 

1008
00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:47,080
you want to go for or is there, 
you know, a broader identity 

1009
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:50,600
certification like CID Pro from 
idpro.org, right. 

1010
00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:52,760
Things like that. 
Or is it a soft skill? 

1011
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:55,680
You know, can you articulate, 
you know, can you build a 

1012
00:52:55,680 --> 00:52:57,440
PowerPoint slide that doesn't 
look like crap? 

1013
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:00,720
Because that's the method that 
your organization uses to 

1014
00:53:00,720 --> 00:53:03,240
communicate, you know, amongst 
each other, You know, stuff like

1015
00:53:03,240 --> 00:53:07,000
that I think is important. 
And I think people need to be 

1016
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:11,480
willing to spend time on 
YouTube, self study and learning

1017
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:14,080
and trying to figure out how 
things work. 

1018
00:53:14,640 --> 00:53:16,560
And whatever that thing is 
doesn't necessarily have to be a

1019
00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:18,480
technical thing. 
It can be a process. 

1020
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:21,040
It can be, you know, a mindset, 
whatever that is. 

1021
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:24,160
Yeah, look at us. 
Like the other thing is put 

1022
00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:26,800
yourself out there. 
Yeah, you know, let's look at 

1023
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:28,960
us. 
We, it's not like we're experts 

1024
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:31,720
on every subject and that's why 
we have guests or anything or 

1025
00:53:31,720 --> 00:53:33,880
anything, right. 
That's why we have guests come 

1026
00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:38,040
in who are experts. 
But we put ourselves out there 

1027
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:41,920
and take a chance that we're not
going to, we're not going to 

1028
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:45,960
know what we're talking. 
About I think it's I think it's 

1029
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:49,480
that is easier said than done. 
I certainly recognize not 

1030
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:51,520
everyone is comfortable doing 
that and that's fine. 

1031
00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:55,600
Like, I don't think everybody 
has to be out there all the 

1032
00:53:55,600 --> 00:53:58,200
time, but I think if you find 
your your tribe right and you 

1033
00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:01,400
start to communicate with those 
folks and if you're a solo 

1034
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:04,440
person, that's great too, right?
Think about what's going to help

1035
00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:08,120
you as well. 
But you know Jim, you said it 

1036
00:54:08,120 --> 00:54:10,680
kind of up front. 
The industry is very welcoming. 

1037
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:13,240
Walk up to people, hey, I just 
want to walk over introduce 

1038
00:54:13,240 --> 00:54:15,040
myself. 
I'm Jeff, you know, I follow you

1039
00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:17,120
here or hey, I really liked what
you wrote about that thing. 

1040
00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:19,320
Just want to let you know that's
it doesn't have to be anything 

1041
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:21,200
fancy. 
You don't have to like, you 

1042
00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:25,000
know, have some sort of secret 
handshake or curtsy or bow or 

1043
00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:28,680
whatever it is, You know, most 
of the people that I've talked 

1044
00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:30,000
to have been very welcoming 
around that. 

1045
00:54:30,240 --> 00:54:33,360
All right. 
So Next up, Chris, again, 

1046
00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:34,920
another good question. 
So we're going to keep it 

1047
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:36,920
rolling with him. 
Good morning, Jeff and Jim. 

1048
00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:39,200
Chris Power from Indianapolis 
IN. 

1049
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:45,360
My question of the day is as 
more products become web-based, 

1050
00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:49,960
more both identity and security 
related issues and then bundled 

1051
00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:53,760
as a service from those 
particular vendors or partners, 

1052
00:54:54,080 --> 00:54:58,680
how do we avoid issues where 
where it becomes a situation 

1053
00:54:58,680 --> 00:55:02,320
where one problem that happens 
in one place happens to all of 

1054
00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:05,960
us now because we all have, 
we're all running the same 

1055
00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:08,520
policies and procedures and 
processes. 

1056
00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:12,880
I see this as a situation where,
from a security point of view, 

1057
00:55:13,120 --> 00:55:17,680
we're now becoming more 
regimented but also more 

1058
00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:22,880
predictable in the minds and the
eyes of attackers and others 

1059
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:25,920
that are meant to do us harm. 
What questions or concerns could

1060
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:30,760
you get out of that, as well as 
what answers do you have to make

1061
00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:32,960
myself feel better about this 
going forward? 

1062
00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:35,480
So I kind of see this as a 
question of, hey, an attack 

1063
00:55:35,480 --> 00:55:38,760
against a large service provider
that a lot of people are using. 

1064
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:40,080
What the heck do you do about 
that? 

1065
00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:44,800
Hopefully I kind of distilled it
down, but what happens when 

1066
00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:50,400
Microsoft or Okta or Google or 
Apple, you know, have some sort 

1067
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:52,840
of issue that affects the number
of people? 

1068
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:56,440
What do you do about that, Jim? 
I think a lot of those services 

1069
00:55:56,440 --> 00:55:58,920
are quote UN quote too big to 
fail. 

1070
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:07,360
I mean the the amount of impact 
is so broad reaching that it's 

1071
00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:14,960
really hard to imagine Microsoft
Azure going down for a week or 

1072
00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:17,760
Amazon Web. 
Now the fortunate part is these 

1073
00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:24,440
bigger services are spread out 
over a geographic landscape and 

1074
00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:28,400
even smaller services generally 
leverages infrastructures and 

1075
00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:31,560
managed in a globally load 
balanced kind of way. 

1076
00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:35,920
So the likelihood of something 
like that happening from, you 

1077
00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:39,120
know, a pure disaster 
perspective like an earthquake 

1078
00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:43,600
or something like that, taking 
down the grid is is less likely.

1079
00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:47,280
But from a security attack 
perspective, I mean like we 

1080
00:56:47,280 --> 00:56:50,840
don't know. 
I think the only thing we can do

1081
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:54,760
is like plan for these things. 
Like what would happen, your 

1082
00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:59,160
tabletop exercise planning what 
would happen if these things 

1083
00:56:59,160 --> 00:57:03,280
were to take place, if our Okta 
system went down, if our 

1084
00:57:03,520 --> 00:57:07,120
Microsoft system went down, what
will we do and what if it came 

1085
00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:10,160
back up in various states. 
And then I think the other thing

1086
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:18,120
to think about and plan for is 
the the shared security model 

1087
00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:22,520
because I've talked with clients
in the past where it's like, oh,

1088
00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:25,160
that's outsourced, we don't have
to worry about that, our vendors

1089
00:57:25,160 --> 00:57:28,720
responsible for it. 
Well, do you, Are you sure, Are 

1090
00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:31,600
you sure you understand what 
your responsibility would be in 

1091
00:57:31,600 --> 00:57:34,320
that scenario? 
Would you be expected to? 

1092
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:37,520
You know, what if? 
What if the problem was because 

1093
00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:40,600
of something that you did? 
In other words, you had the 

1094
00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:43,880
administrator account. 
Somehow the administrator 

1095
00:57:43,880 --> 00:57:45,680
account ended up on the dark 
web. 

1096
00:57:46,120 --> 00:57:48,360
They got in with the 
administrator account, wiped out

1097
00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:54,080
all the data or change the data 
in such a way that locked you 

1098
00:57:54,080 --> 00:57:55,840
out. 
What's your recourse? 

1099
00:57:55,840 --> 00:57:58,400
Well, maybe it is that they 
would restore and you'd be back 

1100
00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:01,560
up and running. 
But again, planning around that 

1101
00:58:01,560 --> 00:58:05,960
and understanding exactly how it
would work and not just, you 

1102
00:58:05,960 --> 00:58:07,800
know, saying we don't have to 
worry about that. 

1103
00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:09,760
Yeah, I like the idea of 
tabletop exercises. 

1104
00:58:09,800 --> 00:58:12,480
I think a lot of times people 
think about tabletop exercises 

1105
00:58:12,480 --> 00:58:14,920
like a breach, right? 
Or something like that. 

1106
00:58:15,560 --> 00:58:17,240
It can be anything you want. 
I mean, it can be done as a 

1107
00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:21,760
dragon as far as I'm concerned. 
But walk through the process, 

1108
00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:23,280
yeah. 
What happens if our IDP goes 

1109
00:58:23,280 --> 00:58:24,520
down? 
What do we do? 

1110
00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:26,720
How do we get people in? 
How are administrators going to 

1111
00:58:26,720 --> 00:58:31,040
get in to assess and diagnose? 
How are those things you know 

1112
00:58:31,040 --> 00:58:35,040
secured in case somebody does 
get access to I think having 

1113
00:58:35,040 --> 00:58:39,560
layers and different you know 
parts of the the onion right as 

1114
00:58:39,560 --> 00:58:41,720
we look at it from a security 
perspective is dispense in 

1115
00:58:41,720 --> 00:58:44,160
depth. 
It shouldn't be down to just one

1116
00:58:44,160 --> 00:58:47,280
control one password and you 
know you're you're you're 

1117
00:58:47,280 --> 00:58:50,000
breached or you're popped. 
What are your different 

1118
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:54,160
compensating or layered controls
to make sure that if there is a 

1119
00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:59,080
breakdown somewhere, you know 
the the the blast radius is is 

1120
00:58:59,080 --> 00:59:02,320
limited or the impact of the 
breach or whatever it be. 

1121
00:59:02,360 --> 00:59:05,640
If it's something where you know
you're talking about internal 

1122
00:59:05,640 --> 00:59:09,320
infrastructure or your Active 
Directory goes down, OK, great. 

1123
00:59:09,320 --> 00:59:11,400
You know what is the plan? 
Do you have ADR plan? 

1124
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:14,400
Do you have a, you know business
continuity approach to it? 

1125
00:59:14,680 --> 00:59:16,640
Have you done tabletop things 
like that. 

1126
00:59:17,160 --> 00:59:19,440
I think you have to kind of go 
into it with the mindset of what

1127
00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:24,720
if, what if this happened and 
sometimes there's an answer, 

1128
00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:26,800
sometimes there's not. 
And I think you have to be kind 

1129
00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:30,240
of OK with that and it's OK to 
go through the process and say 

1130
00:59:30,360 --> 00:59:32,480
that you know This is why we're 
doing this exercises. 

1131
00:59:32,720 --> 00:59:36,920
We don't know what we would do 
if there was a issue with X. 

1132
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:39,880
Let's talk about it. 
What can we do, you know get 

1133
00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:41,440
people in the room and start 
talking about it. 

1134
00:59:41,840 --> 00:59:43,680
And we had the architect 
question earlier, maybe that's a

1135
00:59:43,680 --> 00:59:46,040
great time to pull up. 
You know you're if you've got 1A

1136
00:59:46,040 --> 00:59:48,320
Chief Identity Architect to kind
of come back and say hey you 

1137
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:51,560
know what are the dependencies 
that we need to consider here, 

1138
00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:53,480
What needs to be up and running 
for identity work. 

1139
00:59:54,120 --> 00:59:57,640
I think just being open to 
having the conversation and just

1140
00:59:57,640 --> 01:00:00,480
talking about it is probably the
biggest thing that I would I 

1141
01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:02,200
would recommend here is talk 
about it. 

1142
01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:04,640
Work as a group and try to 
figure it out. 

1143
01:00:05,120 --> 01:00:08,400
There are, there may be levels 
of survival that you're willing 

1144
01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:11,440
to accept for a certain amount 
of time and that might be OK, 

1145
01:00:11,520 --> 01:00:12,680
right. 
We have limited processing 

1146
01:00:12,680 --> 01:00:16,120
capability or limited 
functionality, you know, things 

1147
01:00:16,120 --> 01:00:17,760
like that. 
And that might be OK. 

1148
01:00:17,840 --> 01:00:19,880
If it's a mass out, you know, 
outage. 

1149
01:00:20,320 --> 01:00:21,960
You know Microsoft gets picked 
on a lot. 

1150
01:00:21,960 --> 01:00:24,400
You know, teams goes down. 
You know half half the 

1151
01:00:24,400 --> 01:00:26,880
organizations can't do anything,
you know, from a meeting 

1152
01:00:26,880 --> 01:00:28,880
standpoint. 
OK, well what do you do? 

1153
01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:30,000
Do you just? 
All right. 

1154
01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:31,800
Well, we'll just meet later. 
Yeah, maybe It's not business, 

1155
01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:34,600
you know, mission critical. 
If it is mission critical, 

1156
01:00:34,600 --> 01:00:36,760
what's your what's your plan to 
get up and running quicker? 

1157
01:00:37,040 --> 01:00:38,720
Yeah. 
I think the other thing is like 

1158
01:00:38,720 --> 01:00:43,240
sometimes the business goes out 
and procure services without 

1159
01:00:43,240 --> 01:00:46,920
checking with identity or 
informational security first. 

1160
01:00:46,920 --> 01:00:51,120
They just go out and get it and 
now you've got some, you know, 

1161
01:00:51,120 --> 01:00:54,400
software as a service that 
you've never heard of and they 

1162
01:00:54,400 --> 01:01:01,000
don't have like a complex 
disaster recovery strategy in 

1163
01:01:01,000 --> 01:01:04,720
place, like a say a sales force 
or an Octa or something like 

1164
01:01:04,720 --> 01:01:07,960
that. 
Dig in anyway, especially if 

1165
01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:12,520
that is a mission critical, a 
mission critical system. 

1166
01:01:12,640 --> 01:01:15,680
Yeah. 
So we're already up over an hour

1167
01:01:16,160 --> 01:01:18,680
and we probably want to get 
start to wrap things up. 

1168
01:01:18,680 --> 01:01:22,240
But Jim, I know you reached out 
to Phil, we had sort of like 

1169
01:01:22,240 --> 01:01:25,480
this famous question this has 
become of, you know, what's the 

1170
01:01:25,480 --> 01:01:28,360
difference between digital 
identity and identity and access

1171
01:01:28,360 --> 01:01:30,120
management. 
So I'm going to play that here 

1172
01:01:30,120 --> 01:01:31,600
and then we'll start to wrap 
things up. 

1173
01:01:31,720 --> 01:01:36,720
Hey, Jim, Jeff, on the question 
of what's the difference between

1174
01:01:36,720 --> 01:01:41,320
Digital identity and identity 
and access Management or IAM, 

1175
01:01:42,040 --> 01:01:46,440
I've usually thought of Digital 
identity as a broad overarching 

1176
01:01:46,960 --> 01:01:50,920
topic, whereas Identity and 
Access Management is more 

1177
01:01:50,920 --> 01:01:53,880
applied. 
You know, actually solving the 

1178
01:01:53,880 --> 01:01:58,880
problems of a specific company's
identity needs would be identity

1179
01:01:58,880 --> 01:02:02,080
and access management. 
Whereas you know conferences 

1180
01:02:02,080 --> 01:02:04,080
tend to talk about lots of 
different things. 

1181
01:02:04,080 --> 01:02:05,920
So maybe they're about digital 
identity. 

1182
01:02:05,920 --> 01:02:10,800
An analogy might be the 
difference between biology and 

1183
01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:13,920
gene splicing. 
Although that might be two, 

1184
01:02:14,760 --> 01:02:19,840
those might be two different in 
terms of broad field versus a 

1185
01:02:19,840 --> 01:02:25,360
specific application. 
Anyway, I I think of I am I if I

1186
01:02:25,360 --> 01:02:29,440
pick up a book on IAM, I'm 
expecting to see chapters that 

1187
01:02:29,440 --> 01:02:33,240
are like how to, you know, solve
your authentication problem for 

1188
01:02:33,240 --> 01:02:37,120
your users or, you know, how 
does authorization help you with

1189
01:02:37,120 --> 01:02:38,760
your application, that kind of 
thing. 

1190
01:02:39,160 --> 01:02:43,640
Whereas in a digital identity 
book, I'd expect to see, you 

1191
01:02:43,640 --> 01:02:46,560
know, maybe a broader coverage 
of what are the problems of 

1192
01:02:46,560 --> 01:02:49,440
digital identity, how do we 
solve them, you know, what are 

1193
01:02:49,440 --> 01:02:53,240
the basic technologies that we 
have in our hand in order to do 

1194
01:02:53,240 --> 01:02:55,040
this. 
So that's how I think about it. 

1195
01:02:55,080 --> 01:02:57,960
So I think still kind of aligns 
with kind of what I've been 

1196
01:02:57,960 --> 01:03:01,880
thinking is I see kind of like 
digital identity as the top as 

1197
01:03:01,880 --> 01:03:05,720
sort of like the macro concept 
or discussion. 

1198
01:03:06,120 --> 01:03:09,640
And then down from there are the
different parts of that I AM, 

1199
01:03:10,040 --> 01:03:12,440
CI, AM, yeah, etcetera, 
etcetera. 

1200
01:03:13,000 --> 01:03:18,480
So I think again another 
slightly different answer. 

1201
01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:20,400
I don't know if everybody's 
answered it quite the same way, 

1202
01:03:20,400 --> 01:03:23,320
but still it's kind of like 
where I'm thinking is generally 

1203
01:03:23,320 --> 01:03:27,400
speaking, what do you think? 
Yeah, no, I I this is the way I 

1204
01:03:27,800 --> 01:03:32,920
organize digital identity and I 
am is like I am being a set of 

1205
01:03:32,920 --> 01:03:35,440
functions within digital 
identity. 

1206
01:03:36,640 --> 01:03:40,520
I but I still go back to that 
original episode that we did 

1207
01:03:40,840 --> 01:03:44,600
where we had like 5 
practitioners kind of come on 

1208
01:03:44,600 --> 01:03:48,080
and answer this question. 
And one was Adam Michael from 

1209
01:03:48,680 --> 01:03:53,000
Texas A&M University and he took
the opposite approach, which was

1210
01:03:53,320 --> 01:03:57,160
IMS at the top. 
And your record, Jeff Stedman, 

1211
01:03:57,480 --> 01:04:00,840
is your digital identity within 
my Identity and Access 

1212
01:04:00,840 --> 01:04:04,120
Management ecosystem. 
And I thought that was really 

1213
01:04:04,120 --> 01:04:05,240
interesting. 
And I'm not. 

1214
01:04:05,280 --> 01:04:08,160
I'm not putting myself in a 
position to say that either one 

1215
01:04:08,160 --> 01:04:12,120
is right or wrong, because I 
don't think that there's the set

1216
01:04:12,560 --> 01:04:14,200
answer that everybody agrees 
with you. 

1217
01:04:14,400 --> 01:04:17,480
Yeah, context matters. 
I I absolutely get where he's 

1218
01:04:17,480 --> 01:04:20,800
coming from and totally legit, 
totally valid. 

1219
01:04:22,000 --> 01:04:23,840
I'm not going to, I'm not going 
to go either way with it. 

1220
01:04:23,840 --> 01:04:28,040
I think context matters and I 
think based on your use cases, 

1221
01:04:28,040 --> 01:04:30,160
you might have a different, you 
know, viewpoint of it and that's

1222
01:04:30,160 --> 01:04:31,200
great. 
I think that's a great part of 

1223
01:04:31,680 --> 01:04:33,760
of the idea of spaces. 
And probably maybe a little bit 

1224
01:04:33,760 --> 01:04:36,400
of the frustrating part is like 
we just, we're really good at, 

1225
01:04:36,400 --> 01:04:40,160
like disagreeing and not coming 
together with like, yes, this is

1226
01:04:40,160 --> 01:04:42,160
what this means and we've 
settled on it. 

1227
01:04:42,200 --> 01:04:44,400
And then that doesn't happen and
it changes. 

1228
01:04:45,320 --> 01:04:47,320
And then I'm like, OK, well, 
what do you mean by identity? 

1229
01:04:47,320 --> 01:04:49,560
Are you talking about physical 
identity, digital identity, 

1230
01:04:49,920 --> 01:04:54,000
your, you know, your persona 
online or in your wallet or 

1231
01:04:54,000 --> 01:04:58,480
whatever that look like so makes
it for an interesting industry 

1232
01:04:58,480 --> 01:05:00,520
to be in. 
All right, let's go ahead and 

1233
01:05:00,520 --> 01:05:03,600
wrap up on a lighter note and in
keeping with the trend since 

1234
01:05:03,880 --> 01:05:08,600
Chris sent so many, we're going 
to play his lighter note and he 

1235
01:05:08,600 --> 01:05:09,480
actually called her a lighter 
note. 

1236
01:05:09,480 --> 01:05:10,920
So I feel like we're OK with 
that. 

1237
01:05:12,000 --> 01:05:13,800
Let him ask the question and 
then it'll answer. 

1238
01:05:13,880 --> 01:05:15,760
Hi, Jeff and Jim. 
This is Chris Power from 

1239
01:05:15,760 --> 01:05:18,800
Indianapolis, IN. 
Really enjoy the podcast. 

1240
01:05:19,080 --> 01:05:23,880
For a lighter question, I'm 
going to ask what is your 

1241
01:05:23,880 --> 01:05:28,480
favorite IAM analogy? 
Recently I heard Identity is 

1242
01:05:28,480 --> 01:05:32,680
like gravity, which is really 
resonated with me as well as 

1243
01:05:32,720 --> 01:05:35,600
Identity is the Nexus between 
security and IT. 

1244
01:05:36,040 --> 01:05:40,560
What other ones have you heard 
that really seem to sink in? 

1245
01:05:41,000 --> 01:05:42,320
Look forward to hearing the. 
Discussion. 

1246
01:05:42,440 --> 01:05:43,680
All right. 
So Jim, you said you had 

1247
01:05:43,680 --> 01:05:46,000
something for this one, so. 
I have something for this one, 

1248
01:05:46,000 --> 01:05:51,080
so it's you're only one I am 
misconfiguration away from a 

1249
01:05:51,080 --> 01:05:53,920
breach. 
That sounds like a maxim, like 

1250
01:05:54,560 --> 01:05:56,360
this is like a truth. 
It's like in a book. 

1251
01:05:57,000 --> 01:05:59,320
I think you can probably convert
that into like a haiku or 

1252
01:05:59,320 --> 01:06:02,400
something like that. 
Oh yeah, that's a great idea. 

1253
01:06:02,640 --> 01:06:05,360
But I yeah, I know it's not 
really, it's not really an 

1254
01:06:05,360 --> 01:06:08,360
analogy. 
But I heard it on another 

1255
01:06:08,360 --> 01:06:13,400
podcast and I was like, I've 
been saving it up to use it on 

1256
01:06:13,400 --> 01:06:18,480
our podcast and you may hear me 
say it again puts a lot of 

1257
01:06:18,480 --> 01:06:22,520
weight on the I am practitioner 
like, oh man, 1 

1258
01:06:22,520 --> 01:06:25,240
Misconfiguration. 
How many configurations do I 

1259
01:06:25,240 --> 01:06:27,160
have in my environment? 
Millions. 

1260
01:06:28,840 --> 01:06:31,920
So I don't know that it's a 
truth. 

1261
01:06:32,160 --> 01:06:36,840
It's kind of a truth, but it 
also puts a lot of pressure if 

1262
01:06:36,840 --> 01:06:40,000
it is the truth, and it puts a 
lot of pressure on the I am 

1263
01:06:40,000 --> 01:06:41,960
practitioner. 
What was that other podcast? 

1264
01:06:41,960 --> 01:06:45,360
Let's give him some. 
Credit that was the Google 

1265
01:06:45,360 --> 01:06:49,840
Security podcast with Anton and 
I can't remember his last name, 

1266
01:06:49,840 --> 01:06:54,080
but really good podcast, 
especially if you're in the if 

1267
01:06:54,080 --> 01:06:56,400
you're doing things in Google 
right? 

1268
01:06:56,440 --> 01:07:01,440
I mean because they do talk 
about Google Cloud and Google 

1269
01:07:01,440 --> 01:07:06,480
out Google Suite, G Suite. 
Yeah, G Suite or Workspace, I 

1270
01:07:06,480 --> 01:07:10,080
think had a few different names,
but I get where you're going 

1271
01:07:10,080 --> 01:07:11,280
with it. 
Yeah. 

1272
01:07:12,400 --> 01:07:14,760
Yeah, I I I like to tell 
stories. 

1273
01:07:14,760 --> 01:07:17,480
I like to try to distill things 
that'll help people understand 

1274
01:07:17,480 --> 01:07:19,560
it. 
And I think the analogy or the 

1275
01:07:19,560 --> 01:07:22,080
example that I'll tend to use is
there's a couple. 

1276
01:07:22,200 --> 01:07:26,240
There is the story of how we get
into an airport. 

1277
01:07:26,600 --> 01:07:29,560
So if I'm trying to say look at 
Denny's like this, right, you're

1278
01:07:29,560 --> 01:07:32,200
trying to do this thing, it's 
look, if you're you're going to 

1279
01:07:32,200 --> 01:07:35,160
go on a flight, you have to show
ID. 

1280
01:07:35,760 --> 01:07:38,760
You have a credential, you have 
a boarding pass that gives you 

1281
01:07:38,760 --> 01:07:42,600
authorization to go to get on to
a certain plane, a certain gate,

1282
01:07:42,600 --> 01:07:43,600
right. 
And there's a bunch of different

1283
01:07:43,600 --> 01:07:45,680
steps to go through there. 
And I think, you know, the 

1284
01:07:45,680 --> 01:07:47,960
analogy for me is like this is 
this is what identity is. 

1285
01:07:47,960 --> 01:07:51,000
It's a set of, you know, rules 
and structure that get you to 

1286
01:07:51,000 --> 01:07:53,080
where you need to go in a safe 
and secure manner. 

1287
01:07:54,400 --> 01:07:57,040
Another one that I'll use is 
sort of a story of around like 

1288
01:07:57,680 --> 01:07:59,760
a, a sports arena. 
Same idea, right? 

1289
01:07:59,760 --> 01:08:03,280
You've got tickets to get in. 
You've got seat numbers with 

1290
01:08:03,760 --> 01:08:06,680
where you're authorized to sit, 
certain areas that you really 

1291
01:08:06,680 --> 01:08:08,320
can't go. 
You shouldn't be on the field, 

1292
01:08:08,400 --> 01:08:09,440
right? 
That's privilege access. 

1293
01:08:09,440 --> 01:08:13,040
That's only for for the players 
or coaches or you know, other 

1294
01:08:13,040 --> 01:08:15,280
designated admins, right, so to 
speak. 

1295
01:08:16,040 --> 01:08:19,399
You've got cameras maybe in a 
corner that are counting where 

1296
01:08:19,399 --> 01:08:21,640
people are going or tracking 
things, right? 

1297
01:08:21,640 --> 01:08:24,760
Maybe that's behavior analyst, 
maybe it's ITDR, right? 

1298
01:08:24,760 --> 01:08:29,479
Maybe it's flow that you're 
saying hey what's a lot of 

1299
01:08:29,479 --> 01:08:31,560
people are going to the hot dog 
stands and not as many people 

1300
01:08:31,560 --> 01:08:34,279
are going to the sushi stand. 
Let's try to shift balance right

1301
01:08:34,279 --> 01:08:35,640
things around that and using 
kind of metrics. 

1302
01:08:35,640 --> 01:08:38,120
So I think there's there's a few
different analogies, but I like 

1303
01:08:38,120 --> 01:08:42,520
to base it on real life things 
that I think people easily 

1304
01:08:42,520 --> 01:08:44,760
understand. 
I think probably the most common

1305
01:08:44,760 --> 01:08:46,640
one is like the house, right. 
You've got a key to get on the 

1306
01:08:46,640 --> 01:08:48,399
front door and then which rooms 
can you go into? 

1307
01:08:49,080 --> 01:08:51,800
I think you whatever it is I 
think you've got to be able to 

1308
01:08:52,279 --> 01:08:54,600
make it something that's 
relatable to your audience. 

1309
01:08:55,000 --> 01:08:56,960
So I like to use a few different
examples like that. 

1310
01:08:56,960 --> 01:09:00,680
I I like I I'm trying to figure 
out the identity is like gravity

1311
01:09:00,680 --> 01:09:02,600
one. 
I'm not sure what that means. 

1312
01:09:03,120 --> 01:09:04,600
I'll have to look at that Chris,
next time. 

1313
01:09:04,600 --> 01:09:07,040
Next time we chat, maybe an 
Identiverse. 

1314
01:09:07,040 --> 01:09:08,800
You can walk me through that 
one. 

1315
01:09:09,200 --> 01:09:12,200
I like I I it sounds cool. 
I want to understand it before I

1316
01:09:12,200 --> 01:09:15,720
start using it. 
So I just thought of an analogy.

1317
01:09:15,720 --> 01:09:18,760
I'm going to throw it out there.
So the Winchester Mystery House 

1318
01:09:18,760 --> 01:09:24,720
in San Jose, CA. 
And if you ever go to it, all 

1319
01:09:24,720 --> 01:09:27,840
the rooms are decorated in a 
different style, painted 

1320
01:09:27,840 --> 01:09:32,160
different colors and a lot of 
like trapdoors and things like 

1321
01:09:32,160 --> 01:09:35,520
that. 
And so I think the so I think 

1322
01:09:35,520 --> 01:09:41,160
the back story is Winchester 
like the gun brand, the the 

1323
01:09:41,160 --> 01:09:46,439
person who began that his widow 
became paranoid that people were

1324
01:09:46,439 --> 01:09:50,359
going to kill her because her 
family was responsible for 

1325
01:09:50,359 --> 01:09:52,880
creating these guns that kill 
all these people and that 

1326
01:09:53,080 --> 01:09:54,840
somebody would be mad and want 
to kill her. 

1327
01:09:55,000 --> 01:09:58,360
So she designed the house so 
that if they came into the house

1328
01:09:58,360 --> 01:09:59,960
they would never be able to find
her. 

1329
01:10:00,400 --> 01:10:03,880
And so where I've used that 
analogy from an IM perspective 

1330
01:10:03,880 --> 01:10:07,280
is when you kind of come in and 
come, he's got all these 

1331
01:10:07,280 --> 01:10:10,600
different portals like think 
from a customer perspective, all

1332
01:10:10,600 --> 01:10:13,280
these different portals and you 
never know if you're in the 

1333
01:10:13,280 --> 01:10:15,280
right one. 
And they all look a little bit 

1334
01:10:15,280 --> 01:10:21,920
different and trying to get down
to a more common layout, you 

1335
01:10:21,920 --> 01:10:25,520
know the rooms feel the same, 
you have one key to the front 

1336
01:10:25,520 --> 01:10:30,960
door etcetera etcetera so. 
I like that one because it it's 

1337
01:10:31,080 --> 01:10:33,600
it's an interesting story. 
I can kind of start with that 

1338
01:10:33,720 --> 01:10:36,440
and it's entertaining, right? 
You're not going to lose. 

1339
01:10:36,440 --> 01:10:37,640
Hopefully you don't lose people 
right away. 

1340
01:10:37,640 --> 01:10:39,520
I think that's the the one thing
is you want to keep people's 

1341
01:10:39,520 --> 01:10:40,520
attention. 
So I like that one. 

1342
01:10:40,520 --> 01:10:42,320
That's a good one. 
Yeah, you have to make it 

1343
01:10:42,320 --> 01:10:44,920
relatable, especially when 
you're presenting about I am to 

1344
01:10:44,920 --> 01:10:47,600
people who don't know I am at 
all. 

1345
01:10:48,360 --> 01:10:53,080
Yeah, like us, we're dummies. 
Let's wrap it up. 

1346
01:10:55,720 --> 01:10:57,640
I, I really appreciate everyone 
who sent stuff in. 

1347
01:10:57,640 --> 01:11:00,480
Again, it was there was lots 
that came in and you know Jim 

1348
01:11:00,480 --> 01:11:02,080
and I had some difficult 
decisions to make. 

1349
01:11:02,840 --> 01:11:05,520
Jim, you're in charge of 
reaching out to you know our 

1350
01:11:05,520 --> 01:11:08,640
winners. 
So Andrew, Alex, Tim, Pedro and 

1351
01:11:08,640 --> 01:11:12,080
Chris be on the lookout for 
messaging from Jim. 

1352
01:11:12,080 --> 01:11:16,800
Zio How you can get a copy of 
the of the book from Phil and 

1353
01:11:17,280 --> 01:11:20,600
let's see we're on the web 
idacpodcast.com we're on 

1354
01:11:20,600 --> 01:11:22,280
Twitter. 
X, whatever it's called. 

1355
01:11:22,280 --> 01:11:28,440
IDAC Podcast Mastodon at IDAC 
podcast at infosec dot exchange.

1356
01:11:28,440 --> 01:11:30,840
We're on LinkedIn. 
Keep sending those messages in. 

1357
01:11:31,240 --> 01:11:35,520
Hit that like and subscribe 
button and follow us on YouTube.

1358
01:11:35,680 --> 01:11:38,360
What other YouTube or whatever 
self promotion can we do. 

1359
01:11:38,360 --> 01:11:40,400
Oh, don't forget about Identity 
Week America. 

1360
01:11:40,440 --> 01:11:45,360
Our discount code IDAC 30. 
So if you're going to any of the

1361
01:11:45,360 --> 01:11:48,200
conferences, Europe, America or 
Asia, Friday, any week, you can 

1362
01:11:48,200 --> 01:11:50,920
use that code and get 30% off. 
So we'll have link in our show 

1363
01:11:50,920 --> 01:11:53,320
notes as well for to make it 
easy for people to find. 

1364
01:11:53,960 --> 01:11:56,200
So with that, we'll go ahead and
leave it for this week. 

1365
01:11:56,840 --> 01:11:58,880
Thanks everyone for listening 
and we'll talk with you all in 

1366
01:11:58,880 --> 01:12:01,400
the next one. 
You've been listening to 

1367
01:12:01,400 --> 01:12:05,320
Identity at the Center. 
We hope you've enjoyed the show.

1368
01:12:05,480 --> 01:12:09,680
Make sure to like, rate and 
review and we'll be back soon. 

1369
01:12:09,840 --> 01:12:12,160
But in the meantime, hit the 
website at 

1370
01:12:12,160 --> 01:12:19,240
identity@thecenter.com and find 
us on Twitter at IDAC Podcast. 

1371
01:12:19,680 --> 01:12:23,800
See you next time on Identity at
the Center.