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This is identity at the center. 
If it has anything to do with I 

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am this is the go-to podcast. 
So if you're a beginner or an 

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expert or anyone in between 
you've found your new home 

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welcome to Identity at the 
center now your host Jim 

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McDonald and Jeff Steadman 
Welcome to the identity of the 

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sender podcast, I'm Jeff. 
And that's Jim. 

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Hey Jim. 
Hey, Jeff, how are you? 

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Oh, not so bad yourself good. 
I was wondering, do you mind if 

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I start the show off with a 
complaint, it wouldn't be an 

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identifier podcast of the last, 
like three months, if you 

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didn't. 
So my complaint is around the 

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idea that okay, you have a 
pre-production environment, you 

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go through testing, and then you
go to production and you start 

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finding Errors, really. 
What the hell? 

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Why didn't they just get caught 
in pre-production testing? 

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Because they didn't match. 
Yeah. 

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Well that's usually the case, 
right? 

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Yeah. 
Is like your pre-production 

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testing environments like one 
server node load balancer. 

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All that, you know, yada yada 
yada. 

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Yeah. 
You hit the nail on the head, 

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but in this almost like a been 
through that before you've been 

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through it before, but you know 
what? 

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I was kind of like mapping that 
to was, we talk a lot of times 

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about what makes a good entry 
into I am. 

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And I think, you know, 
Fundamentals of being an it. 

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That's a good starting point for
identity and access management. 

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Yeah, I mean, I started at the 
help desk very very very long 

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time ago, back in a galaxy far 
far away. 

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And so you know, moved into and 
I am operations rule certainly 

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got a lot of exposure to all the
things that can and will go 

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wrong, especially as the help 
desk, which is always been my 

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pet. 
Peeve is when things get rolled 

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out. 
And they forget about 

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operations, like, oh, well, just
have help desk, or service desk 

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or whatever your first line is, 
Right deal. 

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The issues that come out. 
So I make it a point to make 

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sure that those folks are 
included, you know, when we're 

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doing work on the real world. 
Yeah, I give a shout-out to 

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Andrew Cheng the phone who was a
guest. 

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On our show feels like centuries
ago and he's kind of dedicated 

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himself to, you know, a YouTube 
channel where he kind of helps 

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them doobies kind of understand.
I am, and I say what I mean by 

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newbies is newbies to, I am so 
wherever And they're starting 

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point happens to be kind of like
a what are the single sign-on 

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what is identity governance and 
administration, what does 

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privileged access Etc? 
And someone can watch a video 

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and kind of get up to speed on 
those things. 

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So, check him out. 
And through to Andrew chat, the 

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phone is on the identity of the 
sender podcast a while back and 

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he's got a great YouTube 
channel. 

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Yeah, actually, referred Andrews
channel to my new friend, 

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kozara, who is looking to, 
potentially, get into dining 

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space Well here's here's someone
who's certainly spent some time 

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putting together trainings and 
kind of demystify ocation of 

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some identity things. 
So difficult. 

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So person number one resource is
the identity of the center 

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pocket. 
Let's not forget about that. 

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Yeah. 
But you can't watch us which is 

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probably a good thing for 
everybody's eyesight so you can 

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only listen, at least this my 
unless you catch us live when 

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we're at you know like we did at
Gardner which is a lot of fun 

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where we're going to be doing at
identification. 

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A few weeks which is going to be
fun as well. 

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But yeah, we're for the most. 
Part Audio Only. 

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Yeah. 
Looking forward to identify 

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verse. 
I mean, besides kind of 

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scheduling all the Fantastic 
guests that we're going to be 

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talking to it identifies. 
I've also been the social 

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planner. 
So anybody who's out there, who 

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wants to hang out with Jim and 
Geoff. 

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Reach out to me. 
I offer reaching out to me on 

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LinkedIn, just saying, hey 
looking for stuff to do and I'll

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let you know what we're doing 
anyway. 

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And certainly if it's possible 
for me to Like your long, I'm 

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not sure which of the events 
will have control over, but 

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certainly, one of the great 
things is that we're going to be

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doing the podcast live during 
the opening reception just 

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outside the entry to the expo 
hall. 

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So if you've ever wanted to see 
the podcast, be recorded will be

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there, we're going to have some 
great guests, who just going to 

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drop in, let us know what 
they're looking forward to in 

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the, in the conference and 
things like that. 

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I think would be a great 
opportunity to kind of just you 

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know play a part in it. 
I'm sure we'll come up with a 

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few questions and ask for hand 
raises and things like that. 

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Yeah so it's kind of a weird 
thing to say it's like we're 

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going to be recording it live in
front of a conference audience. 

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Maybe I'm not sure what that's 
going to look live studio 

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audience. 
Yeah, it'll be you'll watch this

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record, we're going to be. 
I think we are scheduled for 

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7:00 p.m. 
Tuesday night which is May 30th.

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We're supposed to go, 45 
minutes. 

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We'll see if we go along there's
plenty of stuff going on so we 

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do want to keep people away but 
yeah we got some some cool folks

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on a come through certainly. 
You know if people want to come 

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check us out while we're doing 
our thing and you know maybe get

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a microphone shoved in their 
face, he like be feel like 

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being, you know, on the show as 
well, you know, certainly think 

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about how we could do that. 
But I'm glad you mentioned 

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identifies gym because we have 
partnered with identifiers for 

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people who aren't familiar. 
It is coming up. 

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It's only a few weeks away. 
It's heading to Vegas. 

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I don't ever 20:23 is coming. 
Join the digital identity 

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community at the Aria Resort and
Casino in Las Vegas, May 30th to

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June seconds. 
Jim, as you mentioned you and I 

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are recording May 30th at 7 p.m.
just outside the expo hall. 

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You're going to have me stuck in
a room for, I don't know. 700 

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different recordings. 
It seems like they were going to

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be doing the we do that. 
We had a we had a messaging 

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exchange where it was kind of 
like you're like trying to spec 

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some time to actually work on 
the Pikes and like we're going 

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to be in Vegas where you just a 
touch. 

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Now, Fred say, I don't even 
know, like we're gonna be 

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recording when we're not in like
Keynotes or stuff like that 

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from, but it is, the must attend
annual event. 

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That brings together over 2500 
Security Professionals for four 

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days of world class, learning 
engagement, and entertainment as

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an identity at the center 
listener. 

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Which is you, you're listening 
to this, you're invited. 

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You're able to receive 20% off 
your identity verse twenty. 

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Twenty three tickets, using the 
code idv. 23-0, icen. 20, you 

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can register identifier, Scott, 
Cam tickets are going fast. 

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Want to get their hang out with 
genuine self, hang out with 

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other people. 
In the identity space I'll have 

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a link in our show notes because
there's an easy click that you 

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can do to just click there and 
we'll put the code in 

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automatically and actually that 
helps kind of support and 

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support the show to. 
Right? 

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Kind of shows, people are 
listening to our drivel every 

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week and talking through identy 
things. 

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And we hope to see people there.
What do you think? 

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They just doesn't just benefit 
the show. 

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It benefits. 
The people use the code because 

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I think I've looked around Four 
different discount codes. 

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If you are going with a bigger 
group and things that I haven't 

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seen a discount code, that's any
better. 

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I don't think I've even seen one
as high as 20%, so from what 

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I've seen in my limited 
research, that's the best 

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discount code available. 
Well yeah, I mean those are 

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saying I mean, identifies people
been really cool. 

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We had Andy and you know, not 
too long ago, kind of gave a 

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preview on that and there's 
gonna be a lot of a lot of 

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really welcoming and You know 
good folks that are attending. 

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It's good spot for both Neo 
newbie and Veteran alike to kind

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of, get in congregate, learn 
some stuff. 

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And yeah it'll be a fun time. 
So I'm looking forward to it but

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it's been a whole month since I 
was at a conference. 

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So it's time for another one. 
What are we going to talk about 

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today? 
Jim, because I know that you 

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were instrumental in getting our
guests lined up for today and I 

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wasn't quite sure what to call 
this episode. 

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So you could call the episode 
something around I am user 

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experience or User Journeys, as 
I've been calling it a lot 

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lately because it's kind of the 
idea behind, you know, giving a 

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terrible user journey to go 
ahead and register your account 

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or change your password, or 
manage your profile or one, 

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that's matches the rest of the 
web environment that you're, you

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know, going to be using. 
So anyway, that's that's kind of

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my thought. 
What were you thinking? 

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Well, that's way too long. 
First of all for our show title 

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it's got that But something a 
lot shorter. 

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Like something like I am. 
You xor like B2B b2c bde. 

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Be 2x. 
I am ux, I don't know. 

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I've got a kind of figured out 
your perked up when I said be 2x

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B 2x, I think you should. 
You should stamp that you should

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remark that. 
Yeah, trademark yeah, yeah, okay

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well let's get into it because 
we've got Larry King on. 

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He's the vice president of 
product with serve acity. 

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Welcome to the show Larry. 
Hi everybody. 

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Thanks for having me on. 
Yeah, thanks for joining us. 

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And, you know, looking forward 
to Relation today, you've got a 

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lot of background in actual 
product design and I'm sure you 

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can tell us what's wrong with I 
identity user experiences, but 

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this is the first time you've 
been on the show. 

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So we like to always find out a 
little, about the backgrounds of

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our guests. 
How did you get into the 

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identity and access management 
space? 

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Is it something that you chose, 
or did it choose you? 

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Yes. 
So yeah, like you said, I'm from

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a ux background instead of a 
technical background like a lot 

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of product people are So Jim 
when you're talking about 

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customer Journeys and user 
Journeys and stuff like that 

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that my ears perk up because I'm
glad that the vernacular of the 

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user experience practices, it's 
gotten out to other people as 

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well. 
And that means that we're being 

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effective as a ux journey or a 
ux community of getting out the 

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message that these things are 
important. 

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But yeah, so I'm I started out 
in user experience early 2000s. 

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What did a lot of Consulting 
work in like Guy worked at, you 

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know, one of the big, you know, 
five Consultants did worked at a

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smaller agency and then I got, I
decided that I really wanted to 

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get into internal product teams 
for in ux because I saw the 

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incentives and Consulting were 
more like, you know, sell hours 

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rather than make product better.
So, I wanted to make product 

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better. 
So I had a somebody acquaintance

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that was running. 
The ux department at a little 

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startup called mandiant. 
And we and it was, you know, 

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there are security company. 
They do incident response and 

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they had product security 
products controls and things but

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I had no idea what security was 
at that point. 

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I thought I was going to be 
working on login screens when I 

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went to an Indian because I 
didn't know any better. 

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And then I quickly found out I 
was going to be working on this 

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instant response product for 
endpoint security and as like I 

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learned a lot about Windows 
internals that, I didn't think I

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would ever need to know, or want
to know. 

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But I learned them very, very 
quickly. 

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So I started making, you know, 
designing products for incident 

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responders and then when Keith 
and Steven moved on from, 

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because that's where I met 
Keith. 

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And even the founders of sebasi,
I started working with in there 

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and they went off to a company 
called secureauth where we all 

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work for a while. 
And we worked on, you know, bde 

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Workforce identity there and 
Workforce. 

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Any product and then went away 
from there. 

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Went back to a fire I which had 
been brought in by that many had

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bought in them and then I came 
and then Stephen and Keith 

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started. 
Strove a city about three and a 

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half years ago and I've been 
with them ever since and so, I 

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don't know. 
Yeah, I was gonna say I just 

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didn't, I didn't choose 
identity. 

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I just kind of got into it 
because, you know, the people 

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that I work with and trusted and
and got along really well with 

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were the where the That kind of 
went into their kind of follow 

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them along. 
So here I am. 

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That's been my running thesis, I
think you know a lot of people 

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fell into identity not 
necessarily by choice but sort 

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of like by happens to it happen 
stance. 

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And we did have Steven on back 
in, I want to say September 20 

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21 I think was episode 112. 
So if you want to learn more 

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00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:31,400
about Steven and kind of what he
works, over the works on Mister 

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vassily, but for those who 
aren't familiar, with strove 

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acity, you've got people now 
give us like the 60 second 

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elevator pitch. 
We don't want to be a Commercial

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for, you know, for sure of a 
city but at least give people 

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some awareness of what are what 
do you guys work on? 

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And what are some of the, you 
know, the the solutions you 

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bring to the market? 
Yeah, absolutely. 

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So we are we, you know, we 
started about three and a half 

241
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years ago so we're very young in
the industry compared to some of

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the competitors and the but we 
were purpose-built for identity 

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management when it comes to 
customers. 

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So see I am is all we do. 
We don't do you know, bde we 

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focus on b2c and B2B use cases 
for I am will talk, you know 

246
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later about what the differences
are between those. 

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But we, you know, our elevator 
pitches. 

248
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We believe that remarkable 
sign-in Journeys are 

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forgettable. 
In fact, we even sometimes, if 

250
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you look at our press releases, 
it says extra Varsity. 

251
00:13:22,100 --> 00:13:24,200
The company aiming to make 
customers sign in turn, he's 

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entirely forgettable, which I 
love that line. 

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00:13:26,900 --> 00:13:30,200
And we mean that forgettable in 
two ways, it's forgettable for 

254
00:13:30,500 --> 00:13:33,500
the Brand's customers, right? 
We want to make their, we want 

255
00:13:33,500 --> 00:13:36,000
to have less friction as little 
friction as possible when 

256
00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:38,200
they're going through the login 
and registration process because

257
00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:40,900
they're not there to Login and 
register their there to do, you 

258
00:13:40,900 --> 00:13:43,600
know, something with that 
particular brand. 

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00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:46,000
So we want to make sure that we 
are not the roadblock. 

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00:13:46,100 --> 00:13:48,900
We are facilitating a 
forgettable experience for them 

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00:13:48,900 --> 00:13:52,400
because they don't even realize 
it were there but it's also 

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00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:56,600
forgettable for our customers 
when they deploy us a lot of 

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times when you're putting in big
enterprise software, it's a big 

264
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lawn, painful process and we 
want to make sure that that 

265
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process is not something that 
people remember forever about 

266
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how terrible was they forget 
about it because it was so easy.

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00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:12,100
So again, And we think, you 
know, identity and Workforce are

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do different things and that's 
why we focus on customer size of

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things. 
And, and that's because we learn

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00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:21,900
so much at the BD or the the 
business Enterprise, the 

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00:14:21,900 --> 00:14:24,800
workforce. 
I am that, we worked in trying 

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00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:29,900
to force those use cases, that 
that platform is built into into

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customer. 
Use cases, was very, very 

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00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,600
difficult, very, very expensive,
very, very painful. 

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00:14:34,700 --> 00:14:37,800
And so that's why Keith, and 
Steven decided say we can do 

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00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:40,400
customer in a different Way 
that's much easier and much 

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00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:45,400
better for the market customers.
And so you're a VP of product 

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00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:46,800
which is an awesome Title by the
way. 

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00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:49,500
And if I wasn't watching 
Breaking re watching Breaking 

280
00:14:49,500 --> 00:14:51,400
Bad, the moment I would have 
different thoughts on that. 

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00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:56,500
But what does a VP of product do
in an identity company? 

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00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:59,000
I mean, obviously got the user 
experience side of things, but 

283
00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:00,500
is there, is there more to it 
than that? 

284
00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:03,000
I would say. 
A better question is, what 

285
00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:07,400
doesn't PP product to, 
especially in a start-up? 

286
00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:08,900
Like, we are. 
So I wear a lot of hats. 

287
00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:14,100
That's so, but I, you know, I 
run the design and documentation

288
00:15:14,100 --> 00:15:15,700
team. 
So the, you know, the, the 

289
00:15:15,700 --> 00:15:20,100
customer experience when it 
comes to the product and the 

290
00:15:20,100 --> 00:15:23,800
documentation of that product. 
So I work closely with 

291
00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:27,500
engineering, obviously to set 
priorities helps translate those

292
00:15:27,500 --> 00:15:31,400
customer needs into feature, 
just definitions for, you know, 

293
00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:35,900
engineering teams, make sure 
that we're trying to get as much

294
00:15:35,900 --> 00:15:39,700
good customer information into 
the The engineering teams 

295
00:15:39,700 --> 00:15:41,900
themselves so that they can be 
autonomous and make really, 

296
00:15:41,900 --> 00:15:44,400
really good decisions. 
As opposed to me, making all the

297
00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:45,900
decisions and being the 
bottleneck for that. 

298
00:15:45,900 --> 00:15:48,900
I'm a big believer of getting 
the information to them as much 

299
00:15:48,900 --> 00:15:52,500
as possible so that they could 
be autonomous, we do that, I do 

300
00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:57,900
demos I you know I work in. 
I do Solutions, engineering for 

301
00:15:57,900 --> 00:16:01,700
customers. 
As we're going through, boy, do 

302
00:16:01,700 --> 00:16:05,100
analyst meetings, I do vendor 
management, coordinate, 

303
00:16:05,100 --> 00:16:09,600
marketing, and customer success 
in four releases, Poof 

304
00:16:10,100 --> 00:16:13,200
marketing, I do podcasts and 
write blog posts as well. 

305
00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:17,800
So, again, I do a lot, a lot of 
stuff, but especially since 

306
00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:20,000
we're a start-up. 
So that's my that's my day to 

307
00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:21,200
day. 
It could be anything which is 

308
00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:22,200
what I love about it. 
Really? 

309
00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:24,900
Yeah, it sounds like a fun game.
Kind of get to dip your toes 

310
00:16:24,900 --> 00:16:28,700
into a lot of different pools. 
I'm curious about the analyst 

311
00:16:28,700 --> 00:16:32,700
type of things, I guess, from a,
like a briefing perspective of 

312
00:16:32,700 --> 00:16:36,200
in my imagination and run 
something like hey, you know 

313
00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:38,800
what, analysts XYZ, whatever 
company you have. 

314
00:16:38,900 --> 00:16:41,400
To be from, you know, we'd like 
to kind of give you a briefing 

315
00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:45,100
on or maybe they might ask for 
it of the products that what are

316
00:16:45,108 --> 00:16:49,400
some of the questions that they 
ask, and I am Thunder like 

317
00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:53,800
yourself, you know, dudes? 
It's is it feature-based, is it,

318
00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:57,000
you know, kind of run the gamut 
any kind of pull back a little 

319
00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:58,500
bit. 
It's probably a little more 

320
00:16:58,500 --> 00:17:01,000
Feature Feature based than I 
would like it to be honestly 

321
00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:04,599
because, you know, features are 
like the, the trees. 

322
00:17:04,599 --> 00:17:06,200
And, you know, really I feel 
like when you're talking to 

323
00:17:06,208 --> 00:17:07,599
analyst, you should be talked 
about the Forest. 

324
00:17:07,599 --> 00:17:08,800
Right? 
You know, like you know what are

325
00:17:08,900 --> 00:17:11,700
The high-level problems and what
are the things that we need to 

326
00:17:11,700 --> 00:17:15,400
be doing, you know, at a high 
level to, you know, to address 

327
00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:18,200
those issues in the market and 
then what's coming in the 

328
00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:20,500
future, things like that. 
But then when they get down to, 

329
00:17:20,500 --> 00:17:22,300
it's like, oh, if you don't have
this thing then we're going to 

330
00:17:22,308 --> 00:17:25,300
Mark you you know down because 
it's like well that's a feature 

331
00:17:25,300 --> 00:17:27,800
that our customers. 
Don't even need at this point or

332
00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:29,300
we're not even getting demands 
for that. 

333
00:17:29,300 --> 00:17:31,500
So it's a little weird when we 
talk to analysts because, you 

334
00:17:31,508 --> 00:17:34,800
know, they expect certain things
that just maybe not isn't really

335
00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:37,600
relevant for our context, but 
they'll didn't you in the report

336
00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:39,500
for that? 
That's interesting. 

337
00:17:39,500 --> 00:17:42,800
I think, I wonder how much 
statement, you know, a statement

338
00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,700
like that, where our customers 
are asking for it and it's sort 

339
00:17:45,700 --> 00:17:50,700
of a use case or a feature that 
really doesn't have rounding in 

340
00:17:50,700 --> 00:17:55,400
the real world how that 
influences, you know, both the 

341
00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:56,800
analyst thinking. 
And obviously, you're not on 

342
00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,200
that side of it. 
But on the product side when you

343
00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:01,600
hear things like that is that 
you think like okay well I guess

344
00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,900
we probably should think about 
maybe putting that in or do you 

345
00:18:04,908 --> 00:18:06,200
stick to your convictions and 
say? 

346
00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:08,100
Well, I don't think that's 
important because we want to 

347
00:18:08,108 --> 00:18:08,700
focus. 
Asan. 

348
00:18:08,700 --> 00:18:12,400
These three or four or five 
other core functionalities. 

349
00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:17,300
I didn't make that balance. 
Yeah, I think I have to consider

350
00:18:17,300 --> 00:18:19,300
a lot of different things. 
When we talk about, you know, 

351
00:18:19,300 --> 00:18:21,900
making product decisions and 
roadmap dishes and things like 

352
00:18:21,900 --> 00:18:24,800
that, an analyst is just one of 
them, obviously, you know, we, 

353
00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:26,800
you know, the customers and 
Prospects conversations that we 

354
00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:31,800
have are really key to all of 
that as well as what we, you 

355
00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:35,200
know, as a company believe. 
And and you know what our 

356
00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:37,500
strategy and go-to-market are so
that you know, there's a lot of 

357
00:18:37,500 --> 00:18:39,300
influences. 
To, you know, the product 

358
00:18:39,300 --> 00:18:41,400
decisions that we make, you 
know, how we're going to go to 

359
00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:43,400
market. 
You know what, you know what, 

360
00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:45,600
industries, we're going to focus
on, you know. 

361
00:18:45,900 --> 00:18:48,400
And you know what analysts are 
saying about what's going on in 

362
00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:50,200
the future? 
Because you know, analysts you 

363
00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:52,800
know, things are important. 
You know, we actually were 

364
00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:55,500
recognized as leader and 
Forester and it's because I 

365
00:18:55,500 --> 00:19:01,100
think our vision for customer 
identity and the vision that 

366
00:19:01,100 --> 00:19:04,600
that that analyst has is very, 
very very, very similar. 

367
00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:06,800
And so I think that's good 
validation from our point of 

368
00:19:06,808 --> 00:19:09,300
view that, you know, we're Doing
the right things, moving right 

369
00:19:09,300 --> 00:19:12,000
direction. 
So Larry, given that you had 

370
00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:14,800
that good review from force or 
mean. 

371
00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:16,700
How impactful was that for you 
guys? 

372
00:19:16,700 --> 00:19:23,200
I mean, is it important to be at
the leader side of an analysis? 

373
00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:25,500
Absolutely, especially a 
Forester one. 

374
00:19:25,500 --> 00:19:30,500
Apparently, that's really 
influential in in Europe and you

375
00:19:30,500 --> 00:19:31,900
know, about things outside the 
United States. 

376
00:19:31,900 --> 00:19:35,700
So we've actually had we've 
actually had two customers that 

377
00:19:35,700 --> 00:19:38,700
were directly. 
One of them was in in And 

378
00:19:38,700 --> 00:19:42,800
because of that, and the other 
one was, you know, a pretty big 

379
00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:46,100
step in their decision-making to
go with us. 

380
00:19:46,300 --> 00:19:49,800
So we've had and of course, 
that's really kind of blown up 

381
00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:52,700
our pipeline as well since that 
was announced in November. 

382
00:19:52,700 --> 00:19:54,800
So it's we've had good success 
with that. 

383
00:19:55,300 --> 00:19:59,000
I saw that report came out and I
mean, you guys kind of came out 

384
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:03,100
of nowhere to be all the way at 
the upper, right? 

385
00:20:03,100 --> 00:20:06,900
Which kind of like, you know, 
for a lot of people are probably

386
00:20:06,900 --> 00:20:10,700
like, who's the strong fast. 
City next to like you know 

387
00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:13,100
whatever it was like octave 
Microsoft or what? 

388
00:20:13,100 --> 00:20:17,300
Or I don't remember Wing em and 
rack for truck. 

389
00:20:17,900 --> 00:20:20,800
Gotcha, both the Thomas Bravo 
company's so it's based its us 

390
00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:23,100
and Thomas Bravo like duking it 
out up there. 

391
00:20:24,500 --> 00:20:27,400
There you go. 
I think they I think they got 

392
00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:29,200
you by a few pounds. 
Yeah. 

393
00:20:32,700 --> 00:20:37,200
So let's talk a little about, I 
guess user does user experience 

394
00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:39,300
and design and Journeys and 
things like that. 

395
00:20:39,900 --> 00:20:41,600
And let's start a very high 
level. 

396
00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:46,000
What's wrong with user 
experiences today and identity 

397
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:49,600
and access management know where
he use cases are flows, you're 

398
00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:51,700
like, oh, that's terrible, we've
got to fix that. 

399
00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:55,400
Well, I'll tell you what, 
they're much better than they 

400
00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:58,000
used to be right. 
You know we've collectively 

401
00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:02,300
learned as an industry you know,
a lot since you know the 60s 

402
00:21:02,300 --> 00:21:05,100
when we first started having 
passwords on digital systems 

403
00:21:05,100 --> 00:21:10,600
right? 
But I think the I mean down to 

404
00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:12,600
fundamentals I mean I'm going to
just going to you know come out 

405
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:17,200
and say it's like it's frickin 
passwords like passwords are so 

406
00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:19,500
bad. 
If somebody did a human factors 

407
00:21:19,500 --> 00:21:22,900
review of passwords and how to 
use them effectively for humans,

408
00:21:22,900 --> 00:21:26,200
it just it would never pass the 
test because the only way 

409
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:31,000
passwords are secure is if you 
have a unique, lung complex, non

410
00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:34,600
memorable, characters, string of
characters, on every single 

411
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:38,100
thing you need to log into and 
this is just fundamentally at 

412
00:21:38,100 --> 00:21:41,600
odds with the capabilities of 
humans, right? 

413
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:44,500
But yet this is what we force 
everybody to do, right? 

414
00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:49,500
So and you know you know the 
solve the problems that we have 

415
00:21:49,500 --> 00:21:52,100
with passwords being insecure. 
A lot of them is a lot. 

416
00:21:52,300 --> 00:21:54,900
The reasons that pathogen 
secures because a human behavior

417
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:57,100
not that you know passwords are 
inherently insecure. 

418
00:21:57,100 --> 00:21:59,700
If you you know do all the 
things you need to do to make 

419
00:21:59,700 --> 00:22:03,000
them secure but humans just 
aren't compatible with that. 

420
00:22:03,500 --> 00:22:06,900
So and then like all the 
misinformation around passwords 

421
00:22:06,900 --> 00:22:10,800
and what's the best practices 
is, you know, isn't helpful 

422
00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:15,400
either, you know, you still here
on a regular basis that, you 

423
00:22:15,408 --> 00:22:17,300
know, you should change your 
password regularly leg. 

424
00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:19,600
I complain about this in my kids
school all the time because it's

425
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:22,000
like they have this thing on the
wall, says, back. 

426
00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:26,600
Good password, you know 
practices and one of them is 

427
00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:28,200
change it regularly. 
It's like actually no that's 

428
00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:30,700
actually not, right? 
That is that one of the things, 

429
00:22:30,700 --> 00:22:34,300
in fact, missed even you know, 
recommends Don't force people to

430
00:22:34,308 --> 00:22:37,000
do that because that forces 
people into bad habits that 

431
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:40,100
make, oh, you're that Sperry 
even worse, right? 

432
00:22:40,100 --> 00:22:40,700
Oh, yeah. 
I know. 

433
00:22:40,700 --> 00:22:46,800
I am that parent. 
So, you know, so that's one 

434
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:48,900
thing. 
And then another thing that just

435
00:22:48,900 --> 00:22:52,100
drives me crazy and and really 
is a debt. 

436
00:22:52,300 --> 00:22:56,900
Little to experience is like 
when an your identifiers not 

437
00:22:56,900 --> 00:22:58,500
something that's unique to you, 
right? 

438
00:22:58,500 --> 00:23:02,300
Like your your email address or 
a phone number, you've got a lot

439
00:23:02,300 --> 00:23:04,900
of Legacy companies and you 
know, just going to be General 

440
00:23:04,900 --> 00:23:08,900
using like just you know random 
you know usernames and then if 

441
00:23:08,900 --> 00:23:11,100
they're persons user name isn't 
available, then they have to 

442
00:23:11,100 --> 00:23:12,700
change it. 
And then when they come back, 

443
00:23:12,700 --> 00:23:16,600
they don't remember what it was.
And, and like organizations. 

444
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:19,400
They only see, you know, 
themselves and it's like, well, 

445
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,100
you know, it's not a problem for
us because, you know, we just 

446
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:24,400
You know, this is our thing. 
But this is like you're not 

447
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:27,400
thinking you're thinking about 
your company but not all of the 

448
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:33,100
other things that a user has to 
log into and into, you know, to 

449
00:23:33,100 --> 00:23:36,600
live their lives these days. 
And so you don't you don't see 

450
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:39,200
that and so they make these 
decisions like oh yeah we'll 

451
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:43,200
make a usernames just you know, 
whatever but don't let him use 

452
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:48,100
emails or their phone number and
then you know then people have 

453
00:23:48,100 --> 00:23:51,300
problems remembering what they 
were so those are two of the big

454
00:23:51,300 --> 00:23:54,300
things that are just Really, 
really hard to get rid of. 

455
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,000
I mean, obviously there's some, 
you know, things about passwords

456
00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,000
that are, you know, we've had 
some good updates on going 

457
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:04,400
password, list lately with, you 
know, Fido to and web off and 

458
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:08,100
and all the major vendors being 
able to do interoperability with

459
00:24:08,100 --> 00:24:09,400
those. 
I think that's going to have a 

460
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:14,300
huge impact on on the experience
of logging in is just getting 

461
00:24:14,300 --> 00:24:17,200
rid of passwords basing on Fido 
to based on devices that you 

462
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:19,100
have with the Biometrics and 
things like that. 

463
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:21,200
I'm with you on that. 
I mean. 

464
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:26,800
So Larry you mentioned, you were
excited which for Bessie to take

465
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:31,600
your user experience, focus and 
put it on customer. 

466
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:33,900
I am. 
And I wanted to ask you a 

467
00:24:33,900 --> 00:24:36,900
question about, like, what's 
different between customer. 

468
00:24:36,900 --> 00:24:42,400
I am be to see. 
See I am versus bde Workforce 

469
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:46,200
identity to meet used to be a 
stark contrast, maybe 10 years 

470
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:48,800
ago, 20 years ago, where it was 
like, you know, for our 

471
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,000
customers. 
We have to have a very custom 

472
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:55,000
experience that Makes it very 
easy for them to do business 

473
00:24:55,000 --> 00:25:00,200
with us and our Workforce. 
Like we can feed them dog food, 

474
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:04,400
the meat it because we write 
their paychecks, right? 

475
00:25:04,500 --> 00:25:08,900
And but I found that there's 
been a pretty big shift on the 

476
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:14,900
bde side where it's kind of not 
acceptable in as many cases as 

477
00:25:14,900 --> 00:25:17,200
it used to be and I think it's 
pretty significant. 

478
00:25:17,300 --> 00:25:21,200
In fact, I was logging into a 
cloud application today. 

479
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,700
And it asked me for a sign in 
for my company signed in really 

480
00:25:25,700 --> 00:25:28,900
how inconvenient? 
Why doesn't it just recognize me

481
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:32,200
as the person that I am using 
the same device that uses every 

482
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:38,300
day and just let me in. 
You know, so like even my 

483
00:25:38,300 --> 00:25:42,200
perspective as part of the 
workforce as change that my 

484
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:46,000
expectation now is I shouldn't 
have to login. 

485
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:51,400
I should just just recognize I 
am who I am and let me in and 

486
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:52,900
that's really where it should 
go. 

487
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,800
But my expectation, the past 
with being an employee is like 

488
00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,300
04, how nice that it's the same 
username password and it will 

489
00:26:00,300 --> 00:26:02,900
have 50 different usernames and 
password. 

490
00:26:03,100 --> 00:26:05,600
So what are your thoughts on the
kind of those differences 

491
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,600
nowadays? 
Yeah and I think I think what 

492
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:10,800
your you know what you're 
talking about is really 

493
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:14,700
indicative of the entire, you 
know, user experience industry, 

494
00:26:15,300 --> 00:26:17,800
you know. 
And It's all about really 

495
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:21,100
incentives. 
You know, back in the early 

496
00:26:21,100 --> 00:26:27,100
2000s, when you ex started to 
you know, become you know, a 

497
00:26:27,100 --> 00:26:33,500
real thing you could see the the
effect of doing good ux on the 

498
00:26:33,508 --> 00:26:34,500
bottom line. 
Right. 

499
00:26:34,500 --> 00:26:37,300
And, you know, it's all started 
with, you know, like Amazon and 

500
00:26:37,300 --> 00:26:41,100
and and, and e-commerce. 
And people abandoning shopping 

501
00:26:41,100 --> 00:26:42,500
carts because they didn't know 
what they were. 

502
00:26:42,700 --> 00:26:45,700
Didn't know how to complete the 
the sale or they came up across 

503
00:26:45,700 --> 00:26:48,200
some barrier that they couldn't 
get past all that. 

504
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:52,100
And so user experience 
techniques allowed us to make 

505
00:26:52,100 --> 00:26:56,000
better experiences for that. 
And then, you know, one of the 

506
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,700
big thinkers in user experience 
Jared spool has this article 

507
00:26:59,700 --> 00:27:03,500
about the the six billion dollar
button and it was this button 

508
00:27:03,500 --> 00:27:06,100
that was designed wrong and 
Amazon like changed it and was 

509
00:27:06,100 --> 00:27:10,500
able to like you know, if they 
were able to you know increase 

510
00:27:10,500 --> 00:27:12,400
their revenue by six billion 
dollars because they made this, 

511
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:16,200
you know, one single change and 
that kind of impact of, you know

512
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:21,500
user On the, you know, the 
shopping experience was huge, 

513
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:23,000
right? 
So then, you know, you X became 

514
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,200
really, really big. 
But, you know, when you talk 

515
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:27,400
about enterprise software, we've
got two different people. 

516
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:29,800
We've got the person that's 
buying the software and the 

517
00:27:29,808 --> 00:27:35,500
person that's using the software
and often their their goals and 

518
00:27:35,500 --> 00:27:38,800
motivations are not aligned. 
So and who has the, you know, 

519
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:40,900
who has the authority of the 
person buying the software. 

520
00:27:41,300 --> 00:27:45,400
And so we've got, you know, 
we've all been in working for 

521
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:47,500
Enterprises for a long time. 
We've had Experience has a 

522
00:27:47,500 --> 00:27:51,700
really, really bad because there
was never a focus on employee 

523
00:27:51,700 --> 00:27:55,800
experience, that is changing. 
Now, there's a lot of focus on 

524
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,100
employee experience of it, 
especially in very, very large 

525
00:27:58,100 --> 00:28:01,000
organizations where they have 
formal employee experience 

526
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,200
programs and their they partner 
with it. 

527
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,200
Making sure that you know, when 
you on board, you know, some 

528
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:08,900
consultant that's not even ever 
going to come into an office, we

529
00:28:08,900 --> 00:28:11,700
can make an experience that 
makes them feel. 

530
00:28:11,700 --> 00:28:14,300
Welcome to get them up to speed 
really quickly and what they 

531
00:28:14,300 --> 00:28:18,800
need to do, get them access to 
all of their And and all that. 

532
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:22,100
And so and then they do, you 
know, do you know, play 

533
00:28:22,100 --> 00:28:24,800
engagement surveys and have 
programs to increase that 

534
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:28,900
engagement? 
And so Enterprise, you know, 

535
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,600
employee experience is 
something, is this like next 

536
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:35,100
thing that people know? 
If I can keep my employees that 

537
00:28:35,100 --> 00:28:37,900
cost me less money because I 
don't have to train a new 

538
00:28:37,900 --> 00:28:40,100
person. 
I don't, you know, lose the 

539
00:28:40,100 --> 00:28:42,500
effect news's of the the 
productivity of this person when

540
00:28:42,500 --> 00:28:47,500
they leave all that stuff. 
And so as you know, the The the 

541
00:28:47,500 --> 00:28:49,500
bottom line gets, you know, 
starts going up. 

542
00:28:49,500 --> 00:28:51,500
The stack people are starting to
realize that. 

543
00:28:51,500 --> 00:28:53,800
Yeah, actually user experience 
is really important for 

544
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:57,100
Enterprise Workforce to because 
it actually saves the money in 

545
00:28:57,100 --> 00:28:58,400
the end. 
They've started the figure this 

546
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:00,600
out. 
And so now user experiences is a

547
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:04,500
part of Enterprise, you know, 
Workforce experience as well. 

548
00:29:06,100 --> 00:29:08,600
I wish it was getting better 
faster, especially on the 

549
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,700
Enterprise side because I feel 
like and we talked about David 

550
00:29:11,700 --> 00:29:15,300
Mahdi about this last week and 
he said it and I think I've said

551
00:29:15,300 --> 00:29:18,000
it before to it's like it's a 
Audience, right? 

552
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,400
You're dealing with workers 
where it's basically the 

553
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,700
company's way or the highway go 
find different job you like the 

554
00:29:24,708 --> 00:29:30,000
way we do it in the real world? 
Most workers do not have the 

555
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:34,000
ability to really influence 
identity and access management 

556
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,200
within the organization other 
than complaining. 

557
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:38,900
Now, if enough people complain 
then yes. 

558
00:29:38,900 --> 00:29:42,900
I think things start to get 
better, but I love the fact that

559
00:29:42,900 --> 00:29:45,200
it is getting better. 
I just wish it would move faster

560
00:29:45,700 --> 00:29:51,500
and become more of a thought 
pattern within I am programs and

561
00:29:51,500 --> 00:29:54,400
cisos and cios and I think I'm 
starting to see it. 

562
00:29:54,700 --> 00:29:56,800
I just don't know if I say 
enough of it because it's still 

563
00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:01,700
still feel still very much to me
that it's good enough mentality 

564
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:05,500
versus do we want to really have
a Best in Class employee 

565
00:30:05,500 --> 00:30:07,800
experience? 
What does that even mean? 

566
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,300
Right, but I wish you would get 
better faster. 

567
00:30:11,300 --> 00:30:14,800
Larry, I wanted to move on to 
another question because a lot 

568
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:18,900
of feedback that I've Gotten I 
think Jeff has gotten in terms 

569
00:30:18,900 --> 00:30:23,000
of the podcast is that, you 
know, not having one. 

570
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:27,400
Common vocabulary is one of the 
biggest problems that we run 

571
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:31,800
into in digital identity, your 
identity, access management. 

572
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:36,100
And at a very fundamental level,
we talked about bde B2B and b2c 

573
00:30:36,100 --> 00:30:39,700
all the time, I think everybody 
knows what bde is but, you know,

574
00:30:39,700 --> 00:30:42,100
for me it's not just your 
employees but it's your 

575
00:30:42,100 --> 00:30:47,000
contractors, it's potentially 
your guest users or There are 

576
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:51,800
some combination but it's not 
like large companies that that 

577
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:55,600
partner with your organization. 
But there is some gray area 

578
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:59,900
there, right? 
Then there's the b2c which, you 

579
00:30:59,900 --> 00:31:04,500
know, I think of as, you know, 
maybe they're they're your 

580
00:31:04,500 --> 00:31:08,100
customers, but if your 
government organization, they're

581
00:31:08,100 --> 00:31:13,400
probably citizens, or if you are
an association or nonprofit, 

582
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:19,000
they are your constituents. 
But PDP seems to me. 

583
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:23,200
Like, it's this gray area where 
things get thrown into it. 

584
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:25,900
People are sure. 
Always exactly what it means. 

585
00:31:25,900 --> 00:31:29,300
So when you use B2B, what's your
definition? 

586
00:31:29,900 --> 00:31:30,600
Yeah. 
Absolutely. 

587
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:36,300
I'm fact, I think I see b2c and 
B2B being very similar because 

588
00:31:36,300 --> 00:31:40,800
they're both that be in B2B is 
customer, right? 

589
00:31:40,900 --> 00:31:44,000
It's just a business customer as
opposed to an individual, right?

590
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,900
And so from my point of view be 
to Be really means you're 

591
00:31:47,900 --> 00:31:51,800
selling to a customer, but that 
customer could have multiple 

592
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:55,000
users that are involved with 
that particular account, right? 

593
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:58,700
And so that can come in, you 
know, many forms that can become

594
00:31:58,700 --> 00:32:02,400
in form of, you know, just, you 
know, selling enterprise 

595
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,500
software, say you say, well, you
know, security software, and SAS

596
00:32:05,700 --> 00:32:09,100
application to a security team 
in the business, right? 

597
00:32:09,100 --> 00:32:12,200
So, you know, it's more than one
person needs access because you 

598
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,200
have a security team. 
So you're, it's basically in my 

599
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,800
mind, I think of B2B As you're 
selling to it's a customer. 

600
00:32:18,900 --> 00:32:21,200
They just happen to have more 
than one user. 

601
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:23,500
And so there's some 
collaborative things that have 

602
00:32:23,500 --> 00:32:26,200
to happen and things like that 
and you know, different 

603
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,300
permissions to like you were 
talking about you knowing a 

604
00:32:29,308 --> 00:32:33,500
single user that person has, you
know, one, you know, you know, 

605
00:32:33,500 --> 00:32:39,700
one permission level for their 
individual account in B2B, you 

606
00:32:39,700 --> 00:32:41,900
got to have, you can have 
multiple, you know, roles in 

607
00:32:41,900 --> 00:32:44,900
that be to be, you know, maybe 
you have a role that can manage 

608
00:32:44,900 --> 00:32:46,700
the users that are a part of 
that business. 

609
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:49,400
Then maybe you have another role
that just has access to that 

610
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:53,100
account. 
So for me, B to B, the B is cut 

611
00:32:53,100 --> 00:32:56,400
as is really just to see with 
multiple people and all of the 

612
00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:00,100
things that comes with selling 
and interacting with a business 

613
00:33:00,100 --> 00:33:02,200
versus an individual. 
Yeah. 

614
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,500
And I think, you know, when it 
comes to some of these common 

615
00:33:05,500 --> 00:33:11,600
use cases or use cases, when it 
comes to be, to be versus b2c, I

616
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,300
think that's where some of the 
differentiation comes out. 

617
00:33:14,300 --> 00:33:16,700
So I was going to ask you a 
couple of areas. 

618
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:19,900
As in if they're kind of the 
same that's fine. 

619
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,300
But the first one that comes to 
mind is like on-boarding and 

620
00:33:23,300 --> 00:33:25,700
off-boarding. 
It seems like this is an area 

621
00:33:25,700 --> 00:33:31,500
for user Journeys. 
At least four be just b2c B2B, 

622
00:33:31,500 --> 00:33:34,100
might be a different story. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

623
00:33:34,500 --> 00:33:37,400
There you kind of have the same,
some of the same problems that 

624
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:42,000
you have with, you know, with 
Enterprise, right? 

625
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,900
You need that you've got, you 
know, joiners, levers and 

626
00:33:44,900 --> 00:33:47,300
movers. 
So there's sort of A governance 

627
00:33:47,300 --> 00:33:50,000
thing that's involved with with 
you know B2B as well and 

628
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:52,700
typically you know you'd have to
be able to integrate, you know, 

629
00:33:52,700 --> 00:33:54,800
via orchestration with, you 
know, whatever they're using for

630
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:58,000
governance so that you can, you 
know, remove those users or 

631
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,600
change their access at various 
parts of the lifecycle of that 

632
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:05,800
particular employee. 
So, so there's definitely some, 

633
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:09,000
you know, some very some 
overlaps there between B2B and 

634
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,500
b2c B2B just from the, the, you 
know, the governance side of 

635
00:34:12,500 --> 00:34:15,400
things. 
You know, as far as onboarding, 

636
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:19,900
I mean, the identity proofing 
seems to be a large Trend within

637
00:34:20,199 --> 00:34:23,100
industry. 
Now, getting people to use some 

638
00:34:23,100 --> 00:34:27,800
kind of like government-issued 
identifier identification card 

639
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:31,300
and marrying, it up to kind of a
live selfie. 

640
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:33,699
Are you seeing a lot of traction
for that? 

641
00:34:33,699 --> 00:34:36,000
A lot of customers who were 
saying that's got to be part of 

642
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,500
our onboarding process? 
Yes. 

643
00:34:38,500 --> 00:34:40,100
Absolutely. 
Especially when it comes to 

644
00:34:40,100 --> 00:34:43,699
healthcare and financials we are
getting a lot of that. 

645
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:48,000
We built document ID 
verification into our product as

646
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:52,000
a first class citizen so you can
not to be a commercially. 

647
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:53,800
But you can buy a product 
without having to transact with 

648
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,199
somebody who does identity 
verification. 

649
00:34:56,199 --> 00:34:58,300
We take care of all those 
relationships for you can just 

650
00:34:58,308 --> 00:35:02,400
buy that as a as an add-on. 
But, yeah, and we built that 

651
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:06,400
because we were seeing a lot of 
interest in people doing that, 

652
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:10,100
especially, you know, you know, 
after covid were every, but 

653
00:35:10,100 --> 00:35:12,400
everybody's remote, you know, 
how do I know that personally? 

654
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:13,800
Other side is the who they say 
they are. 

655
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,700
They are, you know, that became 
a lot more of a problem, once 

656
00:35:16,700 --> 00:35:20,600
people, you know, stop going 
into 2 into physical spaces. 

657
00:35:20,900 --> 00:35:22,700
So, yeah, we're seeing a lot of 
uptake on. 

658
00:35:22,700 --> 00:35:26,400
That's why we built that in as a
first class citizen or product. 

659
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:31,100
Yeah, I'm also wondering about 
the next use case was was 

660
00:35:31,900 --> 00:35:35,500
pastoralists and I'm kind of 
wondering, you know, it seems 

661
00:35:35,500 --> 00:35:38,300
like there are a lot of 
companies that have built 

662
00:35:38,300 --> 00:35:41,000
pastoralist capabilities into 
their product. 

663
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:44,500
Some organizations have taken 
that approach Then there's 

664
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,300
smaller firms. 
That specialize in pastoralism 

665
00:35:48,300 --> 00:35:51,800
they can bolt onto products and 
provide that password lets 

666
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:54,100
capability. 
What's your perspective on that?

667
00:35:54,100 --> 00:35:59,900
What's the, what's what makes 
the most sense from a password 

668
00:35:59,900 --> 00:36:03,500
this point of view? 
I think we it's going to come 

669
00:36:03,500 --> 00:36:05,400
from demand from from users, 
right? 

670
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:09,000
Like a lot of what we do comes 
from that demand. 

671
00:36:09,500 --> 00:36:11,400
Like I was just having a 
conversation with RCT or their 

672
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:13,300
day about verifiable 
credentials. 

673
00:36:13,700 --> 00:36:17,400
It's like it's a thing. 
Not a lot of people are using it

674
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:19,500
yet. 
Now, we know we've had a couple 

675
00:36:19,500 --> 00:36:23,000
of news stories recently with 
with clear and Linkedin now 

676
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:28,100
doing verifiable credentials and
on LinkedIn that, you know, you 

677
00:36:28,100 --> 00:36:31,200
are indeed, you know, work at 
Microsoft or something like 

678
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:34,100
that, right? 
And so I think a lot of that 

679
00:36:34,100 --> 00:36:38,500
going to come from, you know, 
demand from users to be able to 

680
00:36:38,500 --> 00:36:42,400
like, you know, especially you 
know the, you know, you talked 

681
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,300
about like smartphones and The 
amazing transformation that has 

682
00:36:45,300 --> 00:36:49,200
had on our culture and, and 
people in the, you know, and all

683
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,100
of that. 
And just the fact that, you 

684
00:36:52,100 --> 00:36:55,600
know, we have these biometric 
ways of logging in that doesn't 

685
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:57,300
people didn't think about it 
anymore. 

686
00:36:57,300 --> 00:36:59,900
I don't think about that. 
I'm unlocking my phone when I 

687
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:03,500
when I'm unlocking it and I'm 
authenticating because I don't 

688
00:37:03,500 --> 00:37:05,300
even think about because it's 
just skin in my face and it was 

689
00:37:05,300 --> 00:37:10,000
it's me right? 
And so when we get that demand 

690
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,200
for that really easy experience,
I have my phone and then when I 

691
00:37:12,207 --> 00:37:16,700
can't get that same thing when I
am going to, you know, 

692
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:20,500
target.com to buy something like
I'm, you know, I can go to 

693
00:37:20,500 --> 00:37:22,600
Amazon to do that or I can go 
somewhere else that has a better

694
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:25,600
experience, right? 
So in the consumer world, it's 

695
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,900
very easy to go from, you know, 
one vendor to another vendor 

696
00:37:28,900 --> 00:37:31,900
based upon experience. 
And so, once the demand gets, 

697
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:35,200
what's becomes more commonplace 
for like, hey, that just, you 

698
00:37:35,207 --> 00:37:38,800
know, I can log in with my face 
anywhere. 

699
00:37:38,900 --> 00:37:40,900
Then why can't I do it here? 
And then, that's going to be a 

700
00:37:40,900 --> 00:37:44,600
barrier for people to Even use 
that service. 

701
00:37:46,100 --> 00:37:49,300
Another area that we've talked a
lot about on the podcast that 

702
00:37:49,300 --> 00:37:53,000
one query on was delegated 
Administration. 

703
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:57,100
So this is something that's used
pretty heavily in the B2B space.

704
00:37:57,100 --> 00:38:02,500
So you have a large organization
that is a customer or dealer or 

705
00:38:03,500 --> 00:38:07,600
some organization that that 
interacts with you and having 

706
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:12,200
somebody from that customer 
organization, manage the 

707
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:15,300
identities of the other folks 
that work there become 

708
00:38:15,300 --> 00:38:18,200
responsible. 
For I think kind of always felt 

709
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:22,900
like this is something that is 
underserved in the, I am space. 

710
00:38:22,900 --> 00:38:26,200
Why doesn't say why does 
somebody come out with a package

711
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:30,000
or why aren't there are several 
packages competing for how to do

712
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:35,600
delegated Administration? 
What's your perspective on that?

713
00:38:35,700 --> 00:38:40,200
Yeah, so we, you know, with with
B2B customers that's almost 

714
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:43,700
table Stakes anymore like, you 
know, like you know, I am say 

715
00:38:43,700 --> 00:38:47,400
I'm a security company and I'm 
Like, you know, buying software 

716
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:50,100
from the SAS vendor. 
And if I can't manage my own 

717
00:38:50,100 --> 00:38:52,600
users then that's a that's a 
huge pain, right? 

718
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:54,800
I don't want to do, couldn't get
a ticket to add this new person,

719
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:55,800
right? 
I want to be able to control 

720
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:58,900
that to myself because I you 
know, I work for this business 

721
00:38:58,900 --> 00:39:00,900
and I know the business the best
and I know who should be here 

722
00:39:00,900 --> 00:39:04,900
and who shouldn't be here. 
So you know, enabling that a 

723
00:39:04,900 --> 00:39:07,500
delegation of that 
Administration I think is hugely

724
00:39:07,500 --> 00:39:10,700
important to be successful in 
the B2B World in customer 

725
00:39:10,700 --> 00:39:13,800
identity right now. 
Like I don't think there's and 

726
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:17,500
so we've taken the approach of 
like We are embracing that. 

727
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,700
And so for on an organization 
organization basis, we actually 

728
00:39:20,700 --> 00:39:25,600
have hosted component user 
management portal that we can 

729
00:39:26,900 --> 00:39:30,700
grant permissions to member of 
that organization, to be able to

730
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:33,600
log into and do all the 
management stuff that we can do 

731
00:39:33,700 --> 00:39:36,300
in our admin console, in a 
separate portal that they have 

732
00:39:36,300 --> 00:39:38,700
access to. 
And then, we can also, of 

733
00:39:38,700 --> 00:39:42,200
course, you know, hook that all 
up via apis so that they can, 

734
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:44,000
you know, embedded into their 
own experiences. 

735
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:47,600
And it's really, you know, No, I
don't, you know, it's, I think 

736
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:49,900
it's going to be table Stakes 
for any sort of B2B. 

737
00:39:49,900 --> 00:39:52,800
See, I am in the future, to be 
able to support that delegated 

738
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:57,100
Administration and it's not just
the user management, it's mostly

739
00:39:57,100 --> 00:39:58,800
user management. 
There's other nicety things too.

740
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:02,900
Like if you can have somebody 
configure their own Enterprise 

741
00:40:02,900 --> 00:40:05,600
SSO, so you don't have to put in
a support ticket little things 

742
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:09,000
like that, we even enable people
to, you know, change the, the 

743
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:12,700
MFA or the authentication 
levels. 

744
00:40:12,700 --> 00:40:15,600
So like maybe you have a 
security team. 

745
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,200
And they log into the all their 
software, and they can only use 

746
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:19,800
you be Keys. 
We can support something like 

747
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:23,400
that, for just that organization
into a that SAS application. 

748
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:25,400
So, lots of different things 
when it comes to delegate 

749
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:28,600
Administration that are and I 
think will become more and more 

750
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:31,300
important for. 
See, I am vendors in the future.

751
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:36,700
You know I think the so back on 
the beat in Seaside something 

752
00:40:36,700 --> 00:40:40,300
you see all the time is like log
in with your Facebook login with

753
00:40:40,300 --> 00:40:43,400
your Twitter seems like maybe 
the players are different. 

754
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:48,500
So now let's log in with Google 
Microsoft or Apple ID, I mean 

755
00:40:48,500 --> 00:40:52,600
there's the most common ones I 
see these days but how important

756
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:55,600
is that spaces? 
It's just considered, you know, 

757
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:59,800
are we already figured that out 
move on or is that something 

758
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:05,800
that from Product standpoint is 
something that you see, as, like

759
00:41:06,100 --> 00:41:10,300
continuing to evolve, it's 
definitely continuing to evolve.

760
00:41:10,300 --> 00:41:12,900
I think, you know, you pointed 
out that the fact that it's in 

761
00:41:12,900 --> 00:41:15,700
used to be more social, you 
know, social things like 

762
00:41:15,700 --> 00:41:19,100
Facebook and Twitter. 
I think that's becoming less and

763
00:41:19,100 --> 00:41:22,200
less something that people do, 
and it's more, like, you know, 

764
00:41:22,300 --> 00:41:25,000
oh, I have Gmail and I can just 
log in with, you know, Google. 

765
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:28,400
I already have an account that 
then, you know, I as a consumer,

766
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:31,000
Google seems, you know, like a 
big company and pretty secure. 

767
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:34,000
So I Kyle trust it. 
I think maybe there's less truck

768
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:38,300
and trust and Facebook as the 
years go on but you know you 

769
00:41:38,300 --> 00:41:42,300
still going to have a you know a
segment of the population that 

770
00:41:42,300 --> 00:41:43,500
you know, are still going to do 
that. 

771
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:46,500
And then that runs into the 
problem too, like we talked 

772
00:41:46,500 --> 00:41:49,000
about is like consistency across
all the things I have to log 

773
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:50,600
into. 
If like, if I have, you know, 

774
00:41:50,900 --> 00:41:54,500
30% of the things I log in to 
have Facebook but nobody else 

775
00:41:54,500 --> 00:41:58,400
does then it's like, well, do I 
want didn't then like, you know,

776
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:02,300
how do I manage that as a user 
like like, oh, did I? 

777
00:42:02,500 --> 00:42:05,200
Log into this using Facebook 
last time, I don't remember, 

778
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:07,400
that's when I check it and then 
I accidentally create a new 

779
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:10,800
account, you know. 
We kind of helped prevent that 

780
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:13,100
by we do like an account linking
thing where we can detect. 

781
00:42:13,100 --> 00:42:16,500
If somebody does that and say 
hey we gotta we have an email 

782
00:42:16,500 --> 00:42:18,300
address that matches that 
Facebook account you want to 

783
00:42:18,300 --> 00:42:21,200
link the two, right? 
But you can run into some really

784
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:24,500
bad experiences by you know, 
good intentions of trying to 

785
00:42:24,500 --> 00:42:27,100
make things easier for people. 
But then there's all these other

786
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:30,100
unintended consequences that can
come up based upon that. 

787
00:42:30,500 --> 00:42:33,800
But we still see, you know 
People, you know, asking for 

788
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:40,700
Enterprise, you know, you know, 
or social logins but like, in 

789
00:42:40,700 --> 00:42:43,900
Europe, for instance, a lot of 
them have, like, IDs that are 

790
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:47,900
that can be tied to their 
digital identity, and then they 

791
00:42:47,900 --> 00:42:52,300
can log in Via, like, sort of 
like an Enterprise login, but 

792
00:42:52,300 --> 00:42:55,300
it's specific to the that 
country and that country is ID. 

793
00:42:55,300 --> 00:42:58,200
So it's really important. 
Like if you're in Europe, be 

794
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:00,400
able to integrate with that and 
be able to, you know, use 

795
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:04,100
somebody's country ID. 
To have them log in as well. 

796
00:43:04,100 --> 00:43:06,100
And then you don't have to do 
that. 

797
00:43:07,100 --> 00:43:10,800
The if you have identity 
verification issues right there,

798
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:13,100
you can that kind of gets past 
some of those because you're 

799
00:43:13,100 --> 00:43:16,200
based on already basing it on 
the country's ID. 

800
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:17,800
I don't think we'll ever get 
there in the United States 

801
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:21,200
because there's too much 
pushback and privacy and having 

802
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:22,600
a national ID and all that 
stuff. 

803
00:43:23,100 --> 00:43:24,900
But in Europe, they're already 
embracing things like that. 

804
00:43:26,100 --> 00:43:29,700
May I ask you a design question 
because I am always curious as 

805
00:43:29,700 --> 00:43:33,200
to what is the appropriate 
number of logon? 

806
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:36,100
Boxes should be him. 
I have indications screen. 

807
00:43:36,700 --> 00:43:38,200
Is it to? 
Is it 3? 

808
00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:41,500
Is there a magic number? 
Like what if I'm a? 

809
00:43:41,500 --> 00:43:43,700
If I man, I am program manager 
out there and I'm trying to 

810
00:43:43,707 --> 00:43:46,300
figure out, you know, what is my
identification experience look 

811
00:43:46,300 --> 00:43:49,700
like is their guidance, you 
know, rule of thumb, maybe from 

812
00:43:49,700 --> 00:43:53,300
a design perspective to say, you
really shouldn't have more than 

813
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:55,500
x number of things on the 
screen. 

814
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:59,600
Once a man like most design 
questions. 

815
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:01,200
That is a big old. 
Depends. 

816
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:07,100
It depends right. 
The the best number is 0, right?

817
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:10,600
That the application. 
Just knows who I am based upon 

818
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:12,900
whatever signals are going on. 
Whether it's, I have a 

819
00:44:12,900 --> 00:44:17,600
remembered device or, you know, 
or you know, the the biometric 

820
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:20,400
or the, you know, the having 
both can combination, which is, 

821
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:23,800
you know, what, you know, Fidos,
sort of built upon. 

822
00:44:24,900 --> 00:44:28,100
But yeah, so, Oh, it's the 
optimal amount is zero now. 

823
00:44:28,500 --> 00:44:33,100
And the, the real answer is you 
add in, as only as much as 

824
00:44:33,100 --> 00:44:35,500
needed, to be able to, you know,
get the security level that 

825
00:44:35,500 --> 00:44:38,900
you're looking for. 
So there's also a debate like 

826
00:44:38,900 --> 00:44:40,700
and we hear this a lot. 
It's like, well, do you know 

827
00:44:40,700 --> 00:44:44,300
we've got, why do we have 
username on one screen and then 

828
00:44:44,300 --> 00:44:48,100
password on the next, right? 
It's like, well, and there's 

829
00:44:48,100 --> 00:44:49,700
like prevent work force attacks,
right? 

830
00:44:49,700 --> 00:44:51,700
Is that kind of like the 
intention is supposed to break 

831
00:44:51,700 --> 00:44:53,800
it up, somehow. 
Oh, there's yeah, there, that's 

832
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:57,100
one of the reasons breaking. 
You know, mitigating Brute Force

833
00:44:57,100 --> 00:44:59,600
attacks, not eliminating but 
making it harder, I'm doing 

834
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:01,900
things like routing you to the 
right log in experience based 

835
00:45:01,900 --> 00:45:05,300
upon who you are because it may 
be, it may be, it's a password 

836
00:45:05,300 --> 00:45:06,900
is flow. 
Like well then, why am I putting

837
00:45:06,900 --> 00:45:08,100
in a password in here? 
Because? 

838
00:45:08,100 --> 00:45:10,900
Well, we don't know if it's a 
password of float until I know 

839
00:45:10,900 --> 00:45:13,700
who you are, and then we could 
say, oh, okay, then pluck 

840
00:45:13,700 --> 00:45:16,600
password, you know, so there's 
reasons to break that up right 

841
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:20,500
now, thinking like I'm answering
a lot of AI questions, you know,

842
00:45:20,700 --> 00:45:23,200
pick the cat wearing the pirate 
hat is my new favorite one that 

843
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:25,400
I've seen as I've going through 
the Authentication? 

844
00:45:25,500 --> 00:45:27,100
Screens. 
Oh, I saw one of those the other

845
00:45:27,100 --> 00:45:30,900
day, the, the recaptcha where it
was like, asking me, like, pick 

846
00:45:30,900 --> 00:45:34,000
all the ones that are vinyl and 
everything was a circle. 

847
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:37,100
I saw that same 12. 
Yeah, I was like, what is this 

848
00:45:37,100 --> 00:45:38,400
now? 
What if I didn't know what vinyl

849
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:40,400
was. 
Yeah, it's like it. 

850
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:44,100
I know it's I'm old. 
So I know it's a record but like

851
00:45:44,300 --> 00:45:47,500
like is a 12 13 year-old going 
to know that that what a vinyl 

852
00:45:47,500 --> 00:45:50,600
is, my daughter would. 
But well, that's what I was 

853
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:55,400
wondering with the it depends 
question was or answer was so 

854
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:59,200
Are you doing like Focus? 
Like the use of focus groups? 

855
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:03,400
I mean, it seems to me like 
that's what big organizations 

856
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:05,400
will do with their e-commerce 
environment. 

857
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:09,200
You know, have focus groups come
in, but I think another 

858
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:12,500
situation was probably just 
comes down to what's the best 

859
00:46:12,500 --> 00:46:17,100
practice? 
Well, I think, and it's focus. 

860
00:46:17,100 --> 00:46:22,600
Groups are not a good way to 
evaluate user experiences. 

861
00:46:23,100 --> 00:46:25,700
The best way to evaluate a user 
experience is actually Actually 

862
00:46:25,700 --> 00:46:28,900
sit a representative user in 
front of the user interface. 

863
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:32,100
Give them a goal and a task, or 
it's actually better if they 

864
00:46:32,100 --> 00:46:35,400
already have their own goal in 
tasks in that and then watch 

865
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:39,000
them, right? 
And then watch multiple people 

866
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:42,800
from, you know, different 
personas and understand that. 

867
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:47,400
So, I would say, going back to 
the, your last question, there's

868
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:50,500
this myth in ux, it's like well,
let's click says better less 

869
00:46:50,500 --> 00:46:52,100
clicks is better. 
Less clicks is better, and 

870
00:46:52,100 --> 00:46:57,400
that's actually not true. 
What is you need to make sure. 

871
00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:02,000
Is that every step that a user 
is going through that user feels

872
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:06,400
like they're getting closer to 
their goal right now, you can 

873
00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:08,600
take that to an extreme and then
eventually somebody's going to 

874
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:10,500
get frustrated because it's 
like, you know, ten different 

875
00:47:10,500 --> 00:47:14,600
steps that doesn't seem to make 
sense but having two steps 

876
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:18,100
versus one step, one step is not
necessarily better to steps is 

877
00:47:18,100 --> 00:47:19,600
okay? 
As long as the user still keeps 

878
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:23,100
you know feeling like they are 
moving and progressing towards 

879
00:47:23,100 --> 00:47:27,300
their goal. 
So an Optimum number of steps. 

880
00:47:27,300 --> 00:47:30,300
I don't think there is, it's 
really just a it's a balance of 

881
00:47:30,300 --> 00:47:34,600
security versus usability as, 
you know, security always is. 

882
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:39,400
And the, you know, we have to 
make that balance depending, you

883
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:42,300
know, and contextually on who 
the user population is. 

884
00:47:42,500 --> 00:47:45,000
What the product is, what 
security levels are, what's the 

885
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:46,500
risk level of that particular 
Enterprise. 

886
00:47:46,500 --> 00:47:51,000
So all that has to go into the, 
the decision of how many steps 

887
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:53,600
is this. 
And you brought up another pet 

888
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:57,200
peeve of mine, which is 
forgetting which login 

889
00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:00,500
mechanism, I used to get into a 
resource, right? 

890
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:02,700
Did I sign up with email? 
Did I use Google that? 

891
00:48:02,700 --> 00:48:05,200
I use LinkedIn, you know, 
whatever it may be. 

892
00:48:05,500 --> 00:48:07,700
And you mentioned this idea of 
kind of profile like you behind 

893
00:48:07,700 --> 00:48:08,900
the scenes, what you think is 
great. 

894
00:48:09,300 --> 00:48:11,600
I'm going to tell you a story 
because I'm going to call out 

895
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:16,100
who burned the carpet here, 
because I have struggled with 

896
00:48:16,100 --> 00:48:21,800
Ubers profile management system 
for almost a decade. 

897
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:23,800
I think. 
Here's the situation. 

898
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:27,900
I was an Uber Rider signed up 
for an account, no problems. 

899
00:48:28,300 --> 00:48:30,600
Then I said, hey, you know what?
What's this Uber driving thing? 

900
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:32,600
Like so I was like, let me try 
it once to just see kind of, you

901
00:48:32,607 --> 00:48:35,700
know, what it's like. 
So I drove once for Uber. 

902
00:48:36,500 --> 00:48:41,600
And now my profile, as an Uber 
person, is I have a driver 

903
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:45,300
profile and I have a rider 
profile, but I cannot manage any

904
00:48:45,300 --> 00:48:47,900
of that information. 
I can't change my picture. 

905
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:52,600
I can't change parts of my name 
etcetera, without having to Get 

906
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:56,600
in contact with Uber and they 
don't seem to have a way to say,

907
00:48:56,600 --> 00:48:58,800
look, I'm never, I'm not going 
to drive for Uber anymore, so 

908
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:02,900
they don't have the seem to have
a way for them to kill off my 

909
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:07,200
driver account without also 
killing off my writer account. 

910
00:49:07,700 --> 00:49:11,800
Now, I've got a very, you know, 
if I have to I will kill it off.

911
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:14,000
That's fine. 
But here's the other problem is,

912
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:16,500
if I were to re-sign up, I 
couldn't use the same email 

913
00:49:16,500 --> 00:49:19,800
address, right? 
So I can't create, you know, I'm

914
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:21,700
stuck in a catch my juice. 
Okay, well I don't mind. 

915
00:49:21,700 --> 00:49:24,300
Go ahead and pull it away. 
Just re-sign up and just kind of

916
00:49:24,300 --> 00:49:26,200
clear things out. 
But what do you mean? 

917
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:27,700
I can't use the same email 
address. 

918
00:49:27,900 --> 00:49:30,000
I'm not going to create a new 
email address to sign up for 

919
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:31,100
ruber. 
That's stupid. 

920
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:34,000
So now I think well I don't have
this problem with lift, I'm 

921
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:37,200
going to go use a lift because I
feel like it's more. 

922
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:40,600
I have more control over my 
Persona within, you know, that 

923
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:43,200
are within that app and the 
ecosphere. 

924
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:45,900
Now, politics aside, whatever 
may be right. 

925
00:49:45,900 --> 00:49:48,600
I'm talking purely about the 
user experience. 

926
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:52,100
I have a really hard time with 
boober, I don't have that 

927
00:49:52,100 --> 00:49:54,000
problem. 
Um, with a competitor and me as 

928
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:56,900
a consumer. 
It makes me want to use their 

929
00:49:56,900 --> 00:49:59,800
competitor. 
In this case, lifts, much more 

930
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:02,600
often than Hoover. 
Now, Uber, if you're listening 

931
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:07,200
and you can fix your stuff, 
please do so, because I would 

932
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:11,400
love to be able to just manage 
my own profile and somehow, you 

933
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:13,800
know, divest my writer profile 
away. 

934
00:50:14,300 --> 00:50:18,100
But since I can't do that now 
it's costing you more money 

935
00:50:18,100 --> 00:50:20,200
because every time I need to 
make a change to my account, 

936
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:21,900
guess what? 
I have to reach out to support. 

937
00:50:21,900 --> 00:50:24,100
And oh, by the the way it had 
provide like eight different 

938
00:50:24,100 --> 00:50:26,800
pieces of information to 
validate my identity border over

939
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:31,200
email, it's really frustrating. 
And I just wonder if that is a 

940
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:33,300
scenario that when you're 
talking, you know, for example, 

941
00:50:33,300 --> 00:50:36,400
with clients and animals and 
things like that, that scenario 

942
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:39,200
comes up is this really 
frustrating for me, and it 

943
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:41,300
really makes me kind of bitter 
about it. 

944
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:49,200
Yeah, a very smart person. 
Once said that the experience is

945
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:53,600
the product. 
And then your case right there 

946
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:57,100
that I think that just really 
kind of nails that statement 

947
00:50:57,100 --> 00:51:01,600
home so much. 
And if you don't understand what

948
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:03,700
the experience of your product 
is, then what are you even 

949
00:51:03,700 --> 00:51:04,800
doing? 
You know, like you don't even 

950
00:51:04,900 --> 00:51:06,500
you don't even know what your 
product is. 

951
00:51:06,700 --> 00:51:09,400
If you if you don't, if you're 
not regularly watching your 

952
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:12,800
customers, use your product. 
And in my mind because of you 

953
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:15,200
know that statement there, it's 
like if you don't see what users

954
00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:18,500
are doing what they're getting 
frustrated with, I had so many 

955
00:51:18,500 --> 00:51:21,300
just like, you know, back and 
forth with Engineers about like 

956
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:23,500
Oh, that's stupid. 
We don't need to worry about 

957
00:51:23,500 --> 00:51:25,900
that detail that doesn't, you 
know who cares about that? 

958
00:51:25,900 --> 00:51:28,700
And then I showed them, you 
know, five videos of customers 

959
00:51:28,700 --> 00:51:30,600
like struggling with that very 
thing. 

960
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:36,600
And it's this it's this issue of
its it's just another part of 

961
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:41,100
the human condition where it's 
very difficult for you. 

962
00:51:41,100 --> 00:51:45,300
And I to put yourself in the 
shoes of somebody that doesn't 

963
00:51:45,300 --> 00:51:47,200
have the knowledge that we do, 
right? 

964
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:49,400
It's very difficult it's called 
The Curse of knowledge. 

965
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:53,800
It's very difficult to to Unknow
what, you know, so you can get 

966
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:57,400
better empathy about what this 
person is struggling with. 

967
00:51:57,500 --> 00:52:00,500
So, in user experience, that's 
why we do so much user testing 

968
00:52:00,500 --> 00:52:02,800
and user observation. 
Because that's what gets past 

969
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:06,200
that cognitive bias that we have
of our own knowledge. 

970
00:52:06,900 --> 00:52:09,300
And that's how we, you know, 
sort of make better products as,

971
00:52:09,300 --> 00:52:11,600
you know, making sure that 
people who are making these 

972
00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:14,400
product decisions are able to 
you know, watch users, use and 

973
00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:17,100
struggle and then understand 
what their goals and motivations

974
00:52:17,100 --> 00:52:19,800
are and where they get 
frustrated and then we all can 

975
00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:21,400
make better decisions about. 
You know what? 

976
00:52:21,500 --> 00:52:23,800
What the product is. 
And so your case Jeff, where you

977
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:26,400
have those two accounts that 
maybe just like an edge case 

978
00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:29,100
that, you know, it's like, oh 
well, that's just an edge case. 

979
00:52:29,100 --> 00:52:31,200
Not a lot of people do that. 
So we're not going to worry 

980
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:33,300
about that, because we made a 
whole bunch of architectural 

981
00:52:33,300 --> 00:52:37,000
decisions that makes that really
difficult to problem to fix. 

982
00:52:37,700 --> 00:52:42,000
So I think but, you know, you 
always have to prioritize. 

983
00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:44,400
But again, yeah. 
The, the experiences, the 

984
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:47,200
product, and you need to watch 
your users, watch your use your 

985
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:48,400
product. 
Otherwise, you don't know what 

986
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:50,900
your product really is, what 
effects that you have on the 

987
00:52:50,908 --> 00:52:51,700
people using. 
It. 

988
00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:56,900
What I love about what Jeff just
said was that it showed that I'm

989
00:52:56,900 --> 00:53:00,400
not the only complainer on the 
podcast, but what I'm about to 

990
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:03,200
say next week about that, I am 
the biggest complainer on the 

991
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:09,800
podcast, which is my gripe is 
everything, that's a brings in 

992
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:16,200
the way, I talk into the user 
experience, which is everybody 

993
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:20,000
seems to be moving toward these 
chat Bots and they suck. 

994
00:53:20,900 --> 00:53:24,000
I mean, let's be honest, nobody 
wants to try to get their 

995
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:27,300
solution from chatbot. 
You, you wouldn't mind chatting 

996
00:53:27,300 --> 00:53:30,500
with a person, I'm not busy for 
you because there are some good 

997
00:53:30,500 --> 00:53:31,700
ones out there. 
There's no. 

998
00:53:31,700 --> 00:53:33,500
But I will agree that most are 
terrible. 

999
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:36,600
No Jim you have to just 
contracts this very elaborate 

1000
00:53:36,700 --> 00:53:39,600
prompt that will get you the 
right answer. 

1001
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:41,400
But if you don't know at the 
prompt right there that just 

1002
00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:44,500
gives you vanilla stuff. 
It's even better is like first 

1003
00:53:44,500 --> 00:53:47,300
off, I hate picking up the phone
calling. 

1004
00:53:47,300 --> 00:53:49,500
I'd rather use an app for 
everything. 

1005
00:53:50,300 --> 00:53:53,800
When you do pick up the phone 
and then you get, I'm in Ai and 

1006
00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:56,800
I understand complete sentences.
And I would like to, and then 

1007
00:53:56,800 --> 00:53:58,900
you say something like, I'd like
to speak to a human. 

1008
00:53:59,300 --> 00:54:01,000
I'm sorry. 
I didn't understand, we had to 

1009
00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:04,400
say it's like, okay, you can't 
understand complete sentences. 

1010
00:54:05,100 --> 00:54:08,500
Anyway. 
What strikes me is like I keep 

1011
00:54:08,500 --> 00:54:11,300
hearing about oh I shouldn't 
take over, it's like we're 

1012
00:54:11,300 --> 00:54:16,300
Terminator. 2 is coming next 
week and like these chat Bots, 

1013
00:54:16,300 --> 00:54:20,200
that are Ai and everywhere that 
I see that as a, I absolutely. 

1014
00:54:20,300 --> 00:54:25,900
Ox, and I really wonder if it's 
going to, then the other thing I

1015
00:54:25,908 --> 00:54:28,600
heard today was, you know, 
they're they're building an AI 

1016
00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:32,400
version of Microsoft Word. 
Microsoft Word is such a pain in

1017
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:34,900
the butt to use nowadays, they 
moved everything around. 

1018
00:54:34,900 --> 00:54:39,900
Like why not focus on making 
Microsoft Word easier to use 

1019
00:54:39,900 --> 00:54:42,500
rather than some feature that? 
Yeah, but that's what they're 

1020
00:54:42,500 --> 00:54:43,700
doing. 
I kind of feel like I don't 

1021
00:54:43,700 --> 00:54:45,500
need. 
I love what Microsoft is doing 

1022
00:54:45,500 --> 00:54:49,500
with introducing chat GPT and 
other open a you know, other AI 

1023
00:54:49,500 --> 00:54:53,300
products into To it. 
I tested one out today is called

1024
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:57,900
Jama and this isn't Microsoft, 
but the idea of being able to 

1025
00:54:57,900 --> 00:55:02,700
create a presentation using a 
prompt and then using a i to 

1026
00:55:02,700 --> 00:55:05,800
tell it what you want the slide 
to look like and having it do 

1027
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:08,500
that and make changes, I think 
that's fascinating. 

1028
00:55:08,500 --> 00:55:11,200
I think it's not great for 
people who do that stuff day in 

1029
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:13,200
and day out and that's our 
primary job. 

1030
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:16,100
So that's something to be 
concerned about but like that 

1031
00:55:16,100 --> 00:55:19,500
kind of stuff is an accelerator 
like being able to go into word 

1032
00:55:19,500 --> 00:55:20,500
type in and out. 
Fine. 

1033
00:55:20,600 --> 00:55:24,200
And then say convert this to a 
PowerPoint presentation and it 

1034
00:55:24,200 --> 00:55:26,000
does whatever it needs to do. 
Right. 

1035
00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:28,700
I think that's like time-savers 
stuff like that is going to be 

1036
00:55:28,700 --> 00:55:31,600
really helpful. 
I think that's more valuable to 

1037
00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:35,000
me right now then like a 
knowledge base because I still 

1038
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:40,300
think AI is not getting me, is 
not 100% accurate, enough of the

1039
00:55:40,300 --> 00:55:45,800
time to be trusted with results,
but to do design shortcut, you 

1040
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:49,500
know, formatting type things. 
I love the idea of it, so I am 

1041
00:55:49,500 --> 00:55:51,300
totally on board. 
Border that kind of stuff. 

1042
00:55:51,900 --> 00:55:54,900
Yeah, I'm very interested in the
space as well. 

1043
00:55:54,900 --> 00:56:00,100
I think Jim you're right. 
And a lot of cases the the they 

1044
00:56:00,100 --> 00:56:04,500
do suck right and I think we're 
in such a early phase of this. 

1045
00:56:04,500 --> 00:56:09,700
This is like, you know, we you 
know I don't know a good analogy

1046
00:56:09,700 --> 00:56:14,900
for this like you know my your 
blackberry was like well I've no

1047
00:56:14,900 --> 00:56:17,300
that's a bad example. 
I'm trying to think of a good 

1048
00:56:17,300 --> 00:56:19,300
example of something. 
You know that was just really 

1049
00:56:19,300 --> 00:56:22,500
terrible at first but Everybody 
still used and then every it 

1050
00:56:22,500 --> 00:56:24,600
got, you know, way way better. 
I think even just like the 

1051
00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:27,600
regular phones cell phones in 
general where anything is really

1052
00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:28,900
cool. 
I can call anybody. 

1053
00:56:29,100 --> 00:56:32,400
But you know, I can't really, 
you know, I the text messaging I

1054
00:56:32,408 --> 00:56:35,700
have to like, do with the, you 
know, the the T9 where you had 

1055
00:56:35,700 --> 00:56:38,600
to type the numbers that would 
like convert it to like actual 

1056
00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:40,600
letters and stuff like that, 
which was really terrible. 

1057
00:56:40,900 --> 00:56:42,200
And it wouldn't get on the 
internet. 

1058
00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:44,300
And the internet was really, 
really slow because it was 2G 

1059
00:56:44,300 --> 00:56:46,000
and all that stuff. 
And then now we have a 

1060
00:56:46,008 --> 00:56:48,200
transformational product that 
like, you has changed every one 

1061
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:51,800
of our lives, right? 
So I think, Think AI is in such 

1062
00:56:51,800 --> 00:56:55,100
early such early stages right 
now. 

1063
00:56:55,100 --> 00:56:58,200
There were there's a lot of 
stuff that sucks but I still 

1064
00:56:58,200 --> 00:56:59,400
believe it's going to be 
transformational a 

1065
00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:01,800
transformational technology and 
10 years from now we're going to

1066
00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:04,700
be like wow I remember back and 
when we had to like you know do 

1067
00:57:04,700 --> 00:57:08,500
XY and z and now and now we just
have a I do it for us. 

1068
00:57:08,500 --> 00:57:09,900
I think it's going to be 
transformational. 

1069
00:57:11,800 --> 00:57:16,100
I'm in the the I have a dream' 
phase of, I see the promise. 

1070
00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:19,100
I want it to be there and I 
can't wait for it. 

1071
00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:23,300
So I'm willing to suffer through
the pain of it and, you know, 

1072
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:25,500
kind of know that it's not 
perfect. 

1073
00:57:25,500 --> 00:57:29,300
But again, maybe that's just the
Leading Edge early adopter 

1074
00:57:29,300 --> 00:57:30,800
personality that I have. 
Yeah. 

1075
00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:34,400
And it's really good for those 
low stakes things, right. 

1076
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:36,100
Like if you're putting it in our
Power Point presentation. 

1077
00:57:36,100 --> 00:57:38,400
Oh yeah, put an outline, it puts
out a presentation. 

1078
00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:40,400
Okay, now I can go through it. 
It's like, okay, I'm just going 

1079
00:57:40,400 --> 00:57:41,800
to change this because this 
wasn't Right? 

1080
00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:43,100
And all that stuff. 
So you have to still have to 

1081
00:57:43,500 --> 00:57:44,600
have somebody. 
Who knows what they're doing. 

1082
00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:47,500
Be able to review that, maybe 
will have ai Bots. 

1083
00:57:47,500 --> 00:57:50,200
That review are the the other a 
bike that's and then we can, you

1084
00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:52,800
know, have them. 
So that all my question then is 

1085
00:57:53,100 --> 00:57:58,400
I think he'd be It could be 
naive to not think that AI is 

1086
00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:02,900
going to have an impact and, you
know, 20 years from now is doing

1087
00:58:02,900 --> 00:58:04,600
a lot of things that we aren't 
doing. 

1088
00:58:04,600 --> 00:58:08,900
Say might be the term AI but 
it's basically technology. 

1089
00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:14,800
My question is like, do you 
think the hype is overblown? 

1090
00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:19,000
That AI is just going to destroy
Humanity? 

1091
00:58:20,300 --> 00:58:23,400
Because I mean that's that's 
like again, we've been under 

1092
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:27,100
great, so many different times 
by electricity indoor plumbing, 

1093
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:30,700
you know, R rated movies video 
games. 

1094
00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:36,700
Yeah, I feel like this is we've 
been destroyed. 

1095
00:58:36,700 --> 00:58:39,400
We bent the impending. 
Doom of man has come several 

1096
00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:41,900
times before we're still here. 
Yeah, yeah, exactly. 

1097
00:58:43,100 --> 00:58:45,300
I don't know. 
I don't I don't there. 

1098
00:58:45,300 --> 00:58:46,900
I think there's some concern 
there that. 

1099
00:58:46,900 --> 00:58:49,000
Absolutely, I think we should be
cautious, you know there? 

1100
00:58:49,000 --> 00:58:52,800
Because there is, you know, I 
mean, 10% of the people that 

1101
00:58:52,800 --> 00:58:58,300
actually work on, you know, 
artificial intelligence think 

1102
00:58:58,300 --> 00:59:01,800
that's absolutely a possibility.
So that's a little scary when 

1103
00:59:01,800 --> 00:59:03,700
the people that are actually in 
the no working on this. 

1104
00:59:04,000 --> 00:59:06,900
And a ten percent of them think 
that it could absolutely could 

1105
00:59:06,900 --> 00:59:09,300
do that. 
That's a little scary, but I 

1106
00:59:09,300 --> 00:59:10,900
can't live my life thinking 
about that all the time. 

1107
00:59:11,100 --> 00:59:16,400
So nothing I can do about that. 
All right, we went down the AI 

1108
00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:18,200
Rabbit Hole. 
Once again, I feel like we end, 

1109
00:59:18,200 --> 00:59:19,700
we're ending up there quite a 
bit. 

1110
00:59:19,700 --> 00:59:21,900
So let's start to wrap up and 
let's go to a lighter note 

1111
00:59:21,900 --> 00:59:24,100
because I feel like I need a 
palate. 

1112
00:59:24,100 --> 00:59:29,300
Cleanser and and I pick 
something way out of left field 

1113
00:59:29,300 --> 00:59:32,400
on this one. 
This is inspired by a Reddit 

1114
00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:37,400
post that I saw the other day. 
What is the largest animal that 

1115
00:59:37,400 --> 00:59:39,500
you think you could beat in a 
fight? 

1116
00:59:40,100 --> 00:59:43,800
And we're talking, you know, 
one-on-one, you know, no weapons

1117
00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:45,100
or anything. 
Thing like that. 

1118
00:59:45,300 --> 00:59:50,200
It's just you versus whatever 
animal you think and this was 

1119
00:59:50,200 --> 00:59:55,400
inspired by a infographic. 
I saw that was I think the size 

1120
00:59:55,400 --> 01:00:00,600
calls statista and it was 
basically a survey that they did

1121
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:03,800
of Americans and Brits and they 
were shown a list of different 

1122
01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:07,700
animals and they were asked how 
many, you know, what percentage 

1123
01:00:07,700 --> 01:00:10,600
of Americans versus Brits do 
they think could take that 

1124
01:00:10,600 --> 01:00:14,000
animal in a one by one. 
So, an example was a rat. 

1125
01:00:15,100 --> 01:00:22,600
And surprisingly I don't only 
like 72% of people and Americans

1126
01:00:22,600 --> 01:00:26,500
thought that they could take a 
rat and sixty cents. 

1127
01:00:26,500 --> 01:00:30,100
Let's call it like sixty six ish
of Brits thought that they could

1128
01:00:30,100 --> 01:00:33,900
take a wrap on and one more on 
versus a grizzly, bear. 

1129
01:00:33,900 --> 01:00:38,500
We're like 1% of Brits. 
So they could take a grizzly 

1130
01:00:38,500 --> 01:00:43,200
bear and like let's call it like
5% of Americans. 

1131
01:00:43,300 --> 01:00:45,200
Of course, a much more American 
Course right? 

1132
01:00:45,200 --> 01:00:47,900
Yeah, of course of course we're 
gonna take others a spoiler. 

1133
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:52,100
No, you're not. 
And that's worth inspired this 

1134
01:00:52,100 --> 01:00:54,600
question. 
So I'm curious and Larry will 

1135
01:00:54,600 --> 01:00:56,800
start with you. 
What do you, what do you think 

1136
01:00:56,800 --> 01:01:00,400
is the largest animal that you 
could take in a one versus one 

1137
01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:01,800
fight? 
Oh my gosh. 

1138
01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:05,100
I just, I've heard people talk 
about this before. 

1139
01:01:05,100 --> 01:01:09,500
And in the context of like a 
goose because like a lot of 

1140
01:01:09,508 --> 01:01:12,000
people like look at A Goose's, 
like, oh, I could this isn't 

1141
01:01:12,000 --> 01:01:13,700
that big. 
I can until it starts chasing 

1142
01:01:13,700 --> 01:01:14,700
you and your sandwich. 
And yeah. 

1143
01:01:15,100 --> 01:01:16,900
Like everyone else. 
Yeah, exactly. 

1144
01:01:16,900 --> 01:01:21,000
It's like I don't I think a 
goose could totally rip you. 

1145
01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:23,500
Rip you a new one. 
If it needed to write. 

1146
01:01:23,500 --> 01:01:29,800
So I'm going to go smaller than 
maybe cat. 

1147
01:01:29,800 --> 01:01:34,400
I'm just like a cat cats cats 
have sharp claws and teeth, but 

1148
01:01:34,400 --> 01:01:36,200
I still think I could probably 
take it. 

1149
01:01:36,200 --> 01:01:38,000
Not that I would want to, and I 
don't want to. 

1150
01:01:38,000 --> 01:01:39,500
I don't want to find any animal.
I love animals. 

1151
01:01:39,500 --> 01:01:40,900
I've got two doses, not a 
scenario. 

1152
01:01:40,900 --> 01:01:42,800
Where condoning violence. 
Okay, good. 

1153
01:01:42,900 --> 01:01:44,500
I'm a big. 
I'm an animal lover. 

1154
01:01:44,500 --> 01:01:46,800
I have Dogs cat, you know, all 
that stuff. 

1155
01:01:47,100 --> 01:01:50,600
I'm fine with that, but I'm just
curious it from if you had to 

1156
01:01:50,700 --> 01:01:53,500
it's, you know, fight or flight.
What do you think you could 

1157
01:01:53,500 --> 01:01:55,500
take? 
I think I think the cat would be

1158
01:01:55,500 --> 01:01:58,500
the biggest. 
I can take anything bigger than 

1159
01:01:58,500 --> 01:02:01,900
that. 
I think would be difficult Jim. 

1160
01:02:01,900 --> 01:02:04,800
What about yourself? 
Large, never fought a cat. 

1161
01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:09,200
I can tell. 
Never here's what I think. 

1162
01:02:09,200 --> 01:02:14,700
Is that humans? 
The human body is not designed. 

1163
01:02:14,900 --> 01:02:19,700
For fighting animals, almost 
every animals is armed with 

1164
01:02:19,700 --> 01:02:23,600
something sharp teeth, claws. 
Things like that, we don't have 

1165
01:02:23,600 --> 01:02:27,400
any of those things. 
What we have is a huge brain 

1166
01:02:27,400 --> 01:02:31,700
inside our skulls, that enable 
us to think and use weapons, 

1167
01:02:32,100 --> 01:02:38,000
sticks, Stones, whatever, guns, 
sharp objects, as I was thinking

1168
01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:42,200
like, oh I if I climb in a tree 
and throw a rock down, I could 

1169
01:02:42,200 --> 01:02:46,100
probably kill a lot of animals 
that That were way bigger than 

1170
01:02:46,100 --> 01:02:50,000
me, you know without that I they
might climb a tree and come back

1171
01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:52,400
to me. 
It's going to be pretty small. 

1172
01:02:53,100 --> 01:02:58,000
I saw a video the other day of a
lion climbing a tree to go after

1173
01:02:58,000 --> 01:03:00,600
a hyena and stealing their kill 
up in the tree. 

1174
01:03:02,300 --> 01:03:04,100
Yeah, and you can barely hear 
that. 

1175
01:03:04,400 --> 01:03:07,000
I had a bear come up on my deck.
It's two floors up. 

1176
01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:11,200
I don't think Maraca watched a 
video of like a bear, killing 

1177
01:03:11,200 --> 01:03:15,300
his prey is not try not to, it's
not a, not a normal viewing 

1178
01:03:15,300 --> 01:03:17,100
habit of mine. 
Oh, no. 

1179
01:03:17,100 --> 01:03:22,300
It's not a pretty picture. 
And so I was thinking maybe a 

1180
01:03:22,300 --> 01:03:25,600
sloth because they're socially, 
like, maybe you could punch them

1181
01:03:25,600 --> 01:03:29,200
in like stomp on their head or 
something, but I don't know. 

1182
01:03:29,500 --> 01:03:35,100
I mean, I'm kind of going where 
Larry went with like some themes

1183
01:03:35,100 --> 01:03:37,300
smaller than that and I was 
thinking like, chicken. 

1184
01:03:38,000 --> 01:03:39,700
Chicken would be delicious. 
At least. 

1185
01:03:40,300 --> 01:03:42,400
Yeah. 
Well people are killing chickens

1186
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:46,200
right hand for a long time. 
So yeah, and I've broken many 

1187
01:03:46,200 --> 01:03:50,300
chicken bones in because I 
actually buy this is my second 

1188
01:03:50,300 --> 01:03:51,900
career. 
I used to be that's like back in

1189
01:03:51,900 --> 01:03:54,100
the back in the day. 
So I've like I've like broken a 

1190
01:03:54,107 --> 01:03:57,500
lot of animal bones but they 
were already, you know, dead 

1191
01:03:58,100 --> 01:04:01,700
deceased surprises me Jim, I 
thought you would pick something

1192
01:04:01,700 --> 01:04:05,700
bigger because I feel like I 
could take on A dog. 

1193
01:04:06,300 --> 01:04:09,500
Maybe like a not maybe the like 
a super large size dog. 

1194
01:04:09,700 --> 01:04:12,000
Now what I'm saying is, I think 
I will win. 

1195
01:04:12,700 --> 01:04:15,400
The question is at what cost am 
I going to be scratched up, 

1196
01:04:15,400 --> 01:04:18,000
buddy? 
Bit, probably, yes, but I feel 

1197
01:04:18,000 --> 01:04:19,800
like I could take on something 
like that. 

1198
01:04:20,300 --> 01:04:22,800
Not that I wanted you. 
Yeah. 

1199
01:04:25,500 --> 01:04:28,300
So so usually I saw, I'm the 
negative 100. 

1200
01:04:28,400 --> 01:04:30,700
Like, how could you come over to
this topic is terrible? 

1201
01:04:30,900 --> 01:04:32,600
I thought it was weird. 
And it was kind of like there 

1202
01:04:32,600 --> 01:04:35,600
was a, there was a 
well-thought-out Reddit That was

1203
01:04:35,600 --> 01:04:38,600
like, why? 
I think I can beat a bear and it

1204
01:04:38,600 --> 01:04:41,300
was like, I don't know, like 
three pages. 

1205
01:04:41,300 --> 01:04:44,800
Long of all the reasons why this
guy thought that he could take 

1206
01:04:44,800 --> 01:04:47,800
out a bear one versus one. 
He couldn't do. 

1207
01:04:47,800 --> 01:04:49,400
Yeah. 
No, definitely not. 

1208
01:04:49,700 --> 01:04:52,000
And that was what most of the 
comments were like, you know, 

1209
01:04:52,000 --> 01:04:54,700
see you in the, ER, if we see 
you at all ever again, you know,

1210
01:04:54,700 --> 01:04:57,000
stuff like that. 
It would be funny, but I thought

1211
01:04:57,000 --> 01:04:58,000
it was interesting was like, all
right. 

1212
01:04:58,000 --> 01:05:00,700
Well, you know, let's, let's 
analyze this, you know, what do 

1213
01:05:00,700 --> 01:05:01,600
you think? 
We could take? 

1214
01:05:01,700 --> 01:05:04,000
But anyway, it was meant to be 
silly and I think mission 

1215
01:05:04,000 --> 01:05:06,500
accomplished Each. 
So let's go ahead and wrap up 

1216
01:05:06,500 --> 01:05:10,500
for this week. 
You know where you're right, a 

1217
01:05:10,500 --> 01:05:12,800
fount of information. 
I'm hopeful that we'll be able 

1218
01:05:12,800 --> 01:05:15,600
to get to fist bump in the 
future at some conference. 

1219
01:05:16,200 --> 01:05:18,600
I don't think it'll be that 
identifies this year but maybe 

1220
01:05:18,600 --> 01:05:20,600
at some point in the future, 
that's something I like to do 

1221
01:05:20,600 --> 01:05:23,500
for all the guests we've had on,
is the official fifth fist. 

1222
01:05:23,500 --> 01:05:25,500
Bump of thanks. 
So I'll give you one here 

1223
01:05:25,500 --> 01:05:28,400
virtually and we'll have links 
in our show notes. 

1224
01:05:28,400 --> 01:05:30,300
You know, it's for people who 
want to connect with, Larry 

1225
01:05:30,300 --> 01:05:33,600
asked him questions on LinkedIn.
Learn more about strobe a city. 

1226
01:05:33,600 --> 01:05:35,700
That's true a sativa. 
Cam, that's St. 

1227
01:05:35,700 --> 01:05:41,400
RI V A CIT Y and kind of learn 
more about what those guys are 

1228
01:05:41,400 --> 01:05:43,500
working on. 
And we have links to, you know, 

1229
01:05:43,700 --> 01:05:48,700
also are identifiers, 
registration code idb 23-0 icen 

1230
01:05:48,700 --> 01:05:50,600
20, make it really easy to sign 
up. 

1231
01:05:50,600 --> 01:05:53,100
We hope to see a lot of people 
there and you know, definitely 

1232
01:05:53,100 --> 01:05:56,700
follow our show on Twitter at 
idac podcast and visit us on the

1233
01:05:56,700 --> 01:06:00,300
web at idac. 
Podcast.com what else we gotta 

1234
01:06:00,300 --> 01:06:02,400
run, Mastodon. 
Speaking of animals that we 

1235
01:06:02,400 --> 01:06:03,900
definitely couldn't take one 
versus one. 

1236
01:06:04,600 --> 01:06:08,700
At idac podcast at infosec that 
exchange, connect with Jim and I

1237
01:06:08,707 --> 01:06:12,500
and Linkedin. 
Jim is our social party planner 

1238
01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:15,300
and is trying to figure out what
we're going to do while we're 

1239
01:06:15,300 --> 01:06:17,800
diverse. 
And when I'm not busy, either 

1240
01:06:17,800 --> 01:06:22,600
recording and or editing the 
plethora of episodes that we 

1241
01:06:22,600 --> 01:06:27,000
have planned for that. 
So, so reach out to us, if 

1242
01:06:27,000 --> 01:06:30,600
you've got questions, comments 
ideas for the show, or just want

1243
01:06:30,600 --> 01:06:33,700
to tell us, you know, how 
pathetic we are about the size 

1244
01:06:33,700 --> 01:06:36,800
of animal that we We could take 
male 1 vs. 1, any of those are 

1245
01:06:36,800 --> 01:06:38,900
welcome. 
So with that, we're going to go 

1246
01:06:38,900 --> 01:06:40,300
ahead and leave it for this 
week. 

1247
01:06:40,300 --> 01:06:42,400
Thanks Laurie for your time, 
Jim. 

1248
01:06:42,400 --> 01:06:45,500
Thanks for your time and we'll 
talk with everyone in the next 

1249
01:06:45,500 --> 01:06:49,100
one. 
You've been listening to 

1250
01:06:49,100 --> 01:06:53,200
Identity at the center. 
We hope you've enjoyed the show,

1251
01:06:53,300 --> 01:06:57,600
make sure to like rate and 
review and we'll be back soon, 

1252
01:06:57,700 --> 01:07:01,200
but in the meantime, hit the 
website at identity at the 

1253
01:07:01,200 --> 01:07:07,800
center.com and find us on 
Twitter at idac podcast, see you

1254
01:07:07,800 --> 01:07:07,800
next time on identity at the 
center idac podcast, see you 

1255
01:07:07,800 --> 01:07:11,500
next time on identity at the 
center