1 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:10,440 This is identity at the center. If it has anything to do with 2 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:17,960 IAM, this is the go to podcast now your hosts Jim McDonald and 3 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:22,800 Jeff Stedman. Welcome to the Identity at the 4 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:24,800 Center podcast. I'm Jeff and that's Jim. 5 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:26,800 Hey, Jim. Hey, Jeff, how are you? 6 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:29,280 Oh, not so bad yourself. I'm doing great. 7 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,439 Happy New Year, buddy. Yeah, Happy New Year. 2023 was a 8 00:00:32,439 --> 00:00:35,680 great year for the podcast, but I did want to point out December 9 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:38,000 was a banner month. It sure was. 10 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:42,680 It goes against every single historical marker or trend, but 11 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:46,160 we literally had our best month ever and not even close in the 12 00:00:46,160 --> 00:00:49,200 month of December. So we definitely ended 23 on a 13 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:50,960 high note. So it sets the bar that much 14 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:52,720 higher for us this year. That's good. 15 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:55,640 I mean, every year's been better than the year previous. 16 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:58,960 And I mean really all the credit goes to our listeners, right? 17 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:01,720 I mean, we can. There's nothing about these 18 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:04,400 statistics that are because of things we're doing right. 19 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:09,680 It's the people that are are listening and and energizing us 20 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:12,160 to keep doing the show. And sharing the show with 21 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:13,920 others. It's amazing how people talk to 22 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:15,640 It's like, oh, I didn't know that that thing existed. 23 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:19,560 Yep, here we are doing our thing, 4 1/2 years later, still 24 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:21,800 figuring it out. And behind the curtains here, 25 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:25,320 right, it's we always record the show a few days early, so 26 00:01:25,320 --> 00:01:27,960 today's our first day back to work. 27 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:31,680 It's always hard the first day back from work, isn't it, After 28 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:34,760 you have a long vacation? Yeah, I don't remember what 29 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:36,040 identity and Access Management is. 30 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:36,960 I'm like, trying to figure it out. 31 00:01:36,960 --> 00:01:38,120 I'm like, what is it? What's my job? 32 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:39,760 What do I do here? What do I even know? 33 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:43,080 Yeah, it was exactly in a fog for the last week or so. 34 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:47,960 Now another behind the scenes is that we recorded next, the next 35 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:52,360 episode in December, right? It was with Phil Windley. 36 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:55,120 He wrote a book called Learning Digital Identity. 37 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:57,640 It's an awesome book, Big fanboy. 38 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:04,680 And he turned around and gave us 5 codes that people can use, our 39 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:10,000 listeners can use for downloading an ebook version of 40 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:12,520 the book. And so there's only five of 41 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:15,120 them, right? So we have to come up with a 42 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:18,840 good way to give them away. And what we came up with is that 43 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:22,000 now we've got this cool new voicemail functionality that 44 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:24,720 we've been thinking, how do we get people to call up to the 45 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:29,920 voicemail and leave a message with a question that we can then 46 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:35,040 take that question and play it on an episode and then answer 47 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:38,200 it. So what we came up with is we'll 48 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:41,160 take five of the questions that people leave on the voicemail 49 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:45,200 and we'll use those during an episode that will drop on 50 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:50,240 February 5th. And so given that, why don't you 51 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:52,240 tell people how to leave the voicemail? 52 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:55,560 Because I don't think that part is abundantly clear yet. 53 00:02:55,920 --> 00:02:59,400 OK, so this is relatively new. I added this to the site in 54 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:00,840 December. I think maybe it was November. 55 00:03:01,640 --> 00:03:05,560 If you go to the website idacpodcast.com right on the 56 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:08,000 homepage you're going to see a little flyer that comes out from 57 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:12,520 the right says talk to us. You just click that and you'll 58 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:15,920 see a little microphone check and you just start talking and 59 00:03:15,920 --> 00:03:20,360 it will send your voice message over to Jim and myself. 60 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:23,120 The other way you can get to it is if you go to the contact page 61 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:26,920 on our website idacpodcast.com, you'll see on the right hand 62 00:03:26,920 --> 00:03:29,920 side of the screen there as well a talk to us kind of section, 63 00:03:29,920 --> 00:03:34,600 same idea, send us a question, a comment, a concern, how you want 64 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:37,280 to be cooked if you're a potato or prepared as potato. 65 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:40,840 Whatever it is, we'll we'll pick the the five that we like the 66 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:43,640 best and use them on the show. So you'll want to listen to that 67 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:47,280 episode and we'll hopefully have some some good entrance as we go 68 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:49,040 through that. But that's how you do it. 69 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:51,160 Just go to the website, click the Talk to US banner on the 70 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:53,480 right hand side and there you go. 71 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:55,120 Yeah. And I would say that, you know, 72 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,800 obviously we have the the Book contest right now, but that 73 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:02,680 voicemail feature is always available and think we get good 74 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:04,920 questions. We'll keep doing that. 75 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:07,640 Yeah, I mean, that's what that's always fun to answer kind of 76 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:11,000 live questions and you know, you can drop them all over the 77 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:13,320 LinkedIn, but if we can play it out of the audio on the show, 78 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:15,120 even better. We've tried this in the past, 79 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:18,600 didn't really have a lot of uptake, but we'll see if this 80 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:22,440 this new version is easier for people to use and we'll go from 81 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:24,280 there. Yeah, fantastic. 82 00:04:24,280 --> 00:04:27,960 So what's today's episode about? We're going to talk about 83 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:31,960 Chrysalis 4, and this is a conference that's coming up in 84 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:34,480 the next couple of weeks here. And to help us with that 85 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:36,640 conversation, I want to welcome back Gary Rowe. 86 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:39,160 He's the CEO and founder of Tech Vision Research. 87 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:42,080 He's also the former president of Burton Group, former Co 88 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:45,240 president of Gartner for technical Professionals or GTP 89 00:04:45,280 --> 00:04:47,800 for people in the know. He's also been on the show with 90 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:49,040 us, which is why I said welcome back. 91 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:54,520 He was with us in episode 174. This is episode 253. 92 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:57,360 Last time we talked was Chrysalis 2022. 93 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:01,360 That was October of 22. Welcome back to the show, Gary. 94 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:05,240 Well, thanks and great to be on again. 95 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:08,200 I loved it a year or so ago when we were on and I really 96 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:11,760 appreciate the the opportunity to join you guys again. 97 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:13,640 Well, thanks for taking the time with us. 98 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:16,560 And I'm going to point people back to episode 174. 99 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:18,840 Normally, our first question is how did you get into world of 100 00:05:18,840 --> 00:05:20,480 Identity? You've already answered that. 101 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:22,000 So we're not going to put you through that again. 102 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:24,720 Go back, listen to episode 174 if you want to know Gary's 103 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,560 origin story. We talked about Chrysalis last 104 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:28,800 time. We're talking about Chrysalis 105 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:30,880 again. I guess tell me a little bit 106 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:33,280 about the conference itself. You know, what is it? 107 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:37,160 And what is the sort of overarching goal that we're 108 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:38,200 trying to get out of it this year? 109 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:44,960 So the conference is an end user focused large enterprise 110 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:51,520 conference that takes a hard, pragmatic look at identity, 111 00:05:51,920 --> 00:06:00,960 security, governance and privacy and looks at recommendations for 112 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:06,520 large organizations where we believe the industry should be 113 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:07,920 going. And it provides a bit of a 114 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:11,400 platform for large enterprises that are trying to make 115 00:06:11,840 --> 00:06:15,160 architecture planning decisions going forward. 116 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:18,480 Dan, you've got kind of a who's who list and and we've got some 117 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:20,760 questions to kind of see that coming up. 118 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:24,480 But you know, right off the bat, just so people know, when is the 119 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:28,360 conference, where is it and how much is the cost? 120 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:34,400 So the conference is January 16th to 17th. 121 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:41,320 It is a virtual event, so everybody anywhere can 122 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:48,800 participate. It costs $399, but we are 123 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:57,600 offering a 50% discount to those that follow you guys and I 124 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:04,040 believe the code is IDAC 24 and if you put that in when you 125 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:09,120 register, you get 50% off the attendance fee. 126 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:12,440 Yeah, but listening to the podcast has its privileges, 127 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:15,920 right? But Gary, who's the conference 128 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:18,560 for? Is it for people who've been in 129 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:27,200 the industry for 20 years plus? It's it is for decision makers, 130 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:33,000 architects, certainly experienced people, but also 131 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:36,720 folks that are really trying to understand this in a very 132 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:43,400 concentrated fashion, primarily focused on large organizations 133 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:46,880 that are trying to figure this out. 134 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:52,720 You know, how How does Identity support some of your security 135 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:56,640 goals? How does that tie in with your 136 00:07:56,640 --> 00:08:00,720 governance models? What's the impact of new 137 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:04,160 technologies that are that are being introduced? 138 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:10,000 So there's a set of recommendations and perspectives 139 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:13,480 specifically for large enterprises. 140 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:16,800 So first of all, I I don't want to gloss over the code, 'cause 141 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:18,360 that's very cool. Thank you for the code. 142 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:22,160 IDAC 2 Four gets you 200 bucks off, Nothing to sneeze at, for 143 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:23,840 sure. Membership has his privileges, I 144 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:26,240 guess if you're part of the IDAC crew, right? 145 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:31,600 And by crew, I mean listening audience, it's virtual. 146 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:34,400 I guess if for people who can't attend, and I'll be honest, I 147 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:36,159 can't attend, 'cause I'm actually going to be on flights 148 00:08:36,159 --> 00:08:39,480 and traveling those days. Is there something that I can do 149 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:41,280 to kind of catch up after the fact? 150 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:43,280 You know what's the virtual environment look like? 151 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:48,680 Yeah, absolutely. Everybody who registers for the 152 00:08:48,680 --> 00:08:56,360 conference will also, after the fact, have access to all of the 153 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:02,280 videos from from the event. So you can you can do it in real 154 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:07,440 time, or if there are certain sessions you say can't attend, 155 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:10,520 you can review them afterwards. So Garrett's looking at the 156 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:15,440 agenda and I mean these topics like they are sucking me and I 157 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:20,880 can't wait to attend and I'm not sure if I can attend all of 158 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:24,800 these topics or if you have to pick and choose, maybe you can 159 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:28,120 talk us through that, But the first one that caught my eye was 160 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:30,880 modernization. You will talk a little bit about 161 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:34,440 the the modernization theme. Sure. 162 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:41,440 So one of the one of the first sessions we have is this next 163 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:45,560 generation Identity and Access management foundation. 164 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:50,440 And as as an analyst firm, we we've spent a lot of time 165 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:54,680 tracking, wrote a lot of research, worked with a lot of 166 00:09:54,680 --> 00:09:59,200 clients on the consulting side with this phenomenon that we're 167 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:05,040 seeing now, which is a lot of the big vendors are taking you 168 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:10,400 know, classic identity in access management, identity governance 169 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:14,120 administration, Privileged access management and other 170 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:19,320 capabilities and trying to build them into one cohesive platform. 171 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:22,760 So large enterprises are at a decision point. 172 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:29,680 Now do we, do we stick with you know our preferred Pam and IGA 173 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:35,400 an IAM solution or do we look to one of these consolidated 174 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:38,560 platform solutions. So we'll have a session that 175 00:10:38,560 --> 00:10:44,680 will dive into this and look at some of the pros and cons and 176 00:10:44,680 --> 00:10:50,760 you know assess you know where Microsoft Intra is and where 177 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:55,200 Okta is with their expansion and where Cyber Ark is and where you 178 00:10:55,200 --> 00:11:00,320 know the Toma Bravo, you know contingent of companies, where 179 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:05,560 they are and how they may fit in terms of the capabilities that 180 00:11:05,560 --> 00:11:08,960 they're offering in the time frame that they're offering as 181 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:12,000 opposed to other standalone solutions. 182 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:15,280 So that's that's a real important area that frankly 183 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:20,600 almost every one of our clients is, is trying to figure out now. 184 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:25,520 So that's a key early session of AT Chrysalis this year. 185 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:29,200 So I hear next Gen. throwing around quite a bit. 186 00:11:29,560 --> 00:11:32,920 I guess help me understand what does next Gen. even mean? 187 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:35,840 Because I think we needed to decide as an industry, what does 188 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:40,200 that term even mean because it could mean modernization, it 189 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:42,560 could mean convergence, right? You talk a little bit like 190 00:11:42,560 --> 00:11:44,120 platforms kind of coming together, right? 191 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:48,040 Things like that. There's certainly the AI thing 192 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:50,400 sitting out in the corner that is staring at us. 193 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:54,360 Define next Gen., Like, what does it mean to you? 194 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:57,120 Wow. You're you're really nailing me. 195 00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:01,400 The the the advantage of of at least partly writing for a 196 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:04,160 living is you have a little flexibility when you use terms 197 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:06,480 like that, you're you're not gonna let me do that. 198 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:12,800 So next Gen. to me is, you know, when you think about identity, 199 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:17,400 any large organization, remember that's what we're focused on. 200 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:23,080 So any large organization if you're going to make substantive 201 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:29,160 changes, an organization's ability to actually execute on 202 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:35,440 those changes typically years. So we have to be looking forward 203 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:39,800 in terms of you know where these technologies are going, where 204 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:44,440 the vendors are going, where the market is going because you know 205 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:48,600 if you're planning on kind of best of breed today by time it's 206 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:51,680 fully implemented and deployed and executed and integrated into 207 00:12:51,680 --> 00:12:56,280 your applications. It may be several years down the 208 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:57,000 road. So. 209 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:01,800 So by next generation it's it's this kind of forward-looking 210 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:05,640 perspective, it's trying to put the right stakes in the ground 211 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:08,040 in a reasonable time frame. It's usually. 212 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:11,440 It's usually a year or two. What are the kind of folks that 213 00:13:11,560 --> 00:13:15,360 you get in these sessions? Is it mostly panels or is it 214 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:17,920 presenters? And then I'm also wondering 215 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:22,280 like, is this going to be the conference where like quote, UN 216 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:24,080 quote news breaks that something. 217 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:27,280 It's said that you're like, wow, I've actually never heard that 218 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:29,600 before. This is new information. 219 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:34,880 You brought the Tom Bravo piece and I saw that you have Andre at 220 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:37,920 the conference. Like, are you like expecting or 221 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,040 at least hopeful that there's going to be some news that 222 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:42,880 drops? I I I'm absolutely hopeful. 223 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:48,040 I never fully expect. But you know the the focus is on 224 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:53,640 trying to solve some of these problems and trying to you know 225 00:13:53,680 --> 00:14:00,200 as an industry really work through what are the right 226 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:03,000 directions for organizations to take. 227 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:08,040 Most of the sessions will be panel sessions. 228 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:12,320 So you know if you look at the panels and you look at you know 229 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:16,960 some of the just deep thinkers and and folks that really have 230 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:20,320 driven our industry that are on those panels. 231 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:23,840 I'm very hopeful that we will come up with some new things, we 232 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:26,200 will come up with some better solutions. 233 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:31,200 We'll work work through some of these, you know, challenges you 234 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:38,280 know as as a group and you know always focusing on you know what 235 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:40,720 what is best for large enterprises. 236 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:42,800 Yeah. You know one of the things I 237 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:47,040 think is like if you get those panels and not everybody agrees 238 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:51,160 that's where not that you want to have like a Jerry Springer or 239 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:52,920 anything, right. We're not going to get that in a 240 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:57,320 in a identity conference. But if there's a little bit of 241 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:01,120 difference of opinion, maybe you know, hey, some folks are coming 242 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:06,040 from the perspective of the practitioner, other folks are 243 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:07,880 coming from the product perspective. 244 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:10,960 But I thought really what could be interesting about the 245 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:16,200 modernization is you really see a tidal wave of new technology 246 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:20,560 not only in our space but in all the other IT spaces. 247 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:25,600 It kind of feels like digital identity has the job onto itself 248 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:29,520 just to keep up with the fast pace of what's happening, you 249 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:32,240 know, in the cloud, in enterprise IT in general. 250 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,920 So I'm really like I said, really interested in that 251 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:40,560 modernization track. You know, Jeff touched on 252 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:46,160 convergence and the other theme that really jumped out at me was 253 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:49,600 artificial intelligence. And it wouldn't be an episode of 254 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:52,680 identity at the center or artificial intelligence at the 255 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:55,200 center if we didn't bring this up. 256 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:57,000 So I mean, this is a big theme, right? 257 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:00,600 This is pervasive beyond IT, right? 258 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:04,400 This is like people are talking about this at the bar over a 259 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:06,600 couple of beers. How? 260 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:10,760 How's it going to affect or or? How does that theme fit into 261 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:13,680 Chrysalis? So it fits in in in a couple of 262 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:21,560 ways. Like I mentioned earlier, the in 263 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:24,680 almost every session we're going to have a lot of really smart 264 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:31,120 people discussing and debating these things, answering 265 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:34,800 questions, trying to, you know, pontificate about where things 266 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:39,400 should be going in almost every session. 267 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:41,360 I think it would be, it would look naive. 268 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:46,680 It would almost be impossible not to be looking at artificial 269 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:51,240 intelligence and generative AI and big data and how decisions 270 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:55,080 are made and so forth. So that'll be infused into 271 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:58,440 virtually every session and identity and security and 272 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:03,160 governance. We also have a separate panel 273 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:08,440 discussion that looks at the impact of artificial 274 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:14,280 intelligence and as we all know, good and bad as it applies to 275 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:18,160 security, as it applies to identity and governance. 276 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:24,160 And like on that panel will have a lady I've been fortunate 277 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:26,440 enough to collaborate with over the years. 278 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:31,360 Barbara Starr was one of the top artificial intelligence people 279 00:17:31,360 --> 00:17:34,680 in the world. I mean, she did a lot of the the 280 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:38,680 DARPA work over the last 20 years that developed a lot of 281 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:44,080 the foundation that ended up, you know, resulting in in Siri 282 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:48,560 and a lot of the, you know, AI technologies we we kind of take 283 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:51,800 for granted at this point. She's also done a lot of 284 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:55,800 security work. We'll also have on in this 285 00:17:55,800 --> 00:18:02,480 particular session, Diana Kelly, who I, I, I, I'm sure you guys 286 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:07,120 know and have worked with, you know, over over a period of 287 00:18:07,120 --> 00:18:09,120 time. She's not only a security 288 00:18:09,120 --> 00:18:13,760 expert, she's doing a lot of work in in artificial 289 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:19,080 intelligence and security. Now we also have Chris Wolf, who 290 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:24,480 I had the pleasure to work with at Burton Group A long time ago, 291 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:29,000 but Chris now runs AI at VM Ware. 292 00:18:29,360 --> 00:18:33,040 So we'll have that perspective. And then another former 293 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:36,520 colleague of mine, It's the advantage of being pretty old 294 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:38,920 and having been in the industry a long time, almost everyone 295 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:43,720 I've worked with at some point. But we'll have Nick Nichols on 296 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:54,920 that panel who runs the security area at Open Text now and it it 297 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:59,680 and identity is within that, but it's done a lot of innovative 298 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:04,360 work and and we'll have another perspective on artificial 299 00:19:04,360 --> 00:19:07,560 intelligence and generative AI and how that kind of fits into 300 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:10,200 this model. So you know we'll have a great 301 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:12,440 team, we'll dive into this deeply. 302 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:16,000 You know, I want to make sure when we when we look at AI 303 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:21,480 though that we look at it with with the proper perspective, you 304 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:25,240 know it's it's not going to solve all problems and 305 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:28,720 artificial intelligence and machine learning in general, 306 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:35,120 it's it's sometimes wrong. And you know if we want to make 307 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:42,240 very prescriptive decisions solely based on you know AI and 308 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:45,280 machine learning generated data, we need to be careful. 309 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:47,920 So we need to be thinking of the governance and so forth, you 310 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:52,360 know, around that. Yeah, it's I I I think AI is one 311 00:19:52,360 --> 00:19:54,880 of those battlegrounds where it's going to become a 312 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:57,080 differentiator for a lot of organizations. 313 00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:00,760 And I, you know, who is the best AI in quotation marks? 314 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:02,920 And I think that's one of the attacks that we're starting to 315 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:06,840 see, even early on, is poisoning the models that are being used 316 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:10,160 to generate that kind of stuff. I want to take it down a level, 317 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:11,640 though, 'cause that's super serious stuff. 318 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:15,320 Tell me about Gary, the writer who does this for a living. 319 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:18,400 How do you see AI? Do you see it helping you? 320 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:20,800 You know, write your research. Write. 321 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:23,560 Blogs, articles, things like that. 322 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:27,240 Is it cheating? And I asked because I use it 323 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:29,120 quite a bit. I'm a big fan of it, but I 324 00:20:29,120 --> 00:20:30,920 certainly recognize the challenge around it. 325 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:33,280 But I I'm always curious to people who actually write for a 326 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,800 living, how do they view AI in the context of, you know, what 327 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:40,960 you do for a living? I think it it it can be 328 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:46,400 extremely helpful and useful. I haven't personally leveraged 329 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:50,400 it that much in terms of my writing yet. 330 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:58,680 I've used it for some primary research, but then I'll pick an 331 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:02,920 example. An area that should have covered 332 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:07,680 for the last 6-7 years is the area of verifiable credentials 333 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:13,160 and decentralized identity. And you know when you when you 334 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:22,320 do some ChatGPT you know requests in that area it it 335 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:26,840 gives you a lot of older data. And you know so for things that 336 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:30,640 are moving really quickly and there's lots of changes that 337 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:32,280 will improve over time of course. 338 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:39,200 But you know as so for certain things it's it's not quite as 339 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:42,320 useful. But for some general research, 340 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:45,400 if you're trying to get up to speed on a new topic, you know, 341 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:50,840 I think that's really important. And you know there there is an 342 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:57,640 opportunity for analysts, for writers to basically get a level 343 00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:01,720 set pretty quickly especially if it's something new that you're 344 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:06,440 trying to research and understand and then kind of 345 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:11,520 interpret that data and you know make your decision you know as 346 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:16,200 an analyst as to what really is correct and and and what what 347 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:18,800 might need some some additional research. 348 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:22,160 Kind of strikes me of like, when I was growing up, Pluto was a 349 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:25,000 planet and then it wasn't. So for longest time I was like, 350 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:26,160 oh, well, Pluto's a planet. So it is. 351 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:27,960 And then. And then the facts changed. 352 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:29,600 It no longer was a planet. And I, I don't know. 353 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:31,120 Is it a planet again? I don't. 354 00:22:31,120 --> 00:22:33,760 I think there's some some movement I think to move it 355 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:36,680 back. But it strikes me as that same 356 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:39,360 kind of data model that you talked about where it maybe 357 00:22:39,360 --> 00:22:42,520 doesn't know recent things like you said. 358 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:43,800 That'll get better over time, right? 359 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,600 Comes more real time, that kind of thing, But I think that's 360 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:47,880 kind of a cautionary tale for people. 361 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,400 If you take the data today at face value, you're not doing 362 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:53,560 fact checking. You end up in the news for a for 363 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,680 a variety of different reasons. Lots of people are citing legal 364 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,520 arguments, for example, that never took place, right? 365 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:05,520 Things like that. So I I I did a lot of work 6-7 366 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:10,160 eight years ago and you know beginning to look at distributed 367 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:14,800 Ledger blockchain technology and associated with blockchain it 368 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:22,200 are smart contracts and to me how 1 uses generative AI is kind 369 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,560 of like a smart contract. There's, there's some regulatory 370 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:29,120 issues. There's if you're actually 371 00:23:29,120 --> 00:23:34,600 executing automatically based on like with the smart contract, 372 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:38,760 based on if this and this then that, then execute then I'm 373 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:43,000 agreeing you know on this, on this contract to purchase 374 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,760 something or whatever to buy some commodity, There's some 375 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:48,960 risk associated with that. And it's the same thing with 376 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:51,800 generative AI. You know, we get to a point 377 00:23:51,800 --> 00:24:02,320 where there's a there's a set of recommendations, there's you 378 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:04,960 know, big part of AI is predictive analytics. 379 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,040 We want to kind of figure out what's going to happen at some 380 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:12,440 point in the future. But to be able to interpret 381 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:16,760 that, to be able to contextualize that I think is is 382 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:18,840 important for some period of time. 383 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:22,040 You know one of the and and Barbara will will talk about 384 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:25,880 this a little bit. You know, at Chrysalis, one of 385 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:34,680 the challenges that artificial intelligence has is being able 386 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:40,280 to explain how it reached the conclusion that it reached 387 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,920 explainable AI. And you know, that's that 388 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:47,760 there's a lot of work to be done to to try to figure that out. 389 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:50,840 So you can say, you know here, here's what you should do at a 390 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:55,520 point in time, But depending on the decision, if it's a security 391 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:59,040 area, the risk involved and so forth, you probably want to look 392 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,920 into it a little bit more, at least based on where it is right 393 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:03,760 now. I think it's a fascinating 394 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:06,360 space. I think it keeps changing. 395 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,760 So trying to keep up with it is almost a little bit of a fool's 396 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,120 errand. But I I have on record on this 397 00:25:12,120 --> 00:25:16,480 podcast of being very bullish of how AI is going to impact the 398 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,480 identity space. Specifically, you mentioned 399 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:23,120 earlier and kind of teased some of the names that are speaking 400 00:25:23,120 --> 00:25:26,680 at the conference, and you have these concepts of legends 401 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:28,520 panels, right? So you've got an identity legend 402 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,800 panel, you've got a security Legends paddle with some, I'll 403 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,280 be honest, some really good gets, as we say in the business, 404 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:35,800 right? For for speakers. 405 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:40,240 I guess my question is, one, who decides who the legends are? 406 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:43,640 And then two, tell me a little bit about these panels, the 407 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:45,600 identity legends, the security legends panels. 408 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:47,880 Like what's the point of those conversations and what are you 409 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:49,320 expecting for people to get out of those? 410 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:56,200 So the the decision is is made first by by by me and our 411 00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:01,080 analyst team, you know and and I think if you look at some of the 412 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:04,360 names and kind of their histories, I mean there's lots 413 00:26:04,360 --> 00:26:07,840 of legends out there, but it would be hard to argue that that 414 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:11,680 any of the ones that are on either the Identity or Security 415 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:13,440 legends panel shouldn't be there. 416 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:23,240 So on the on the identity panel, I'll, I don't necessarily 417 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:26,560 consider myself a legend, but I'll kind of choreograph it. 418 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:29,600 And we've had some amazing people. 419 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:33,120 We've had Jamie Lewis and Kim, Kim Cameron, a lot of folks on 420 00:26:33,120 --> 00:26:36,400 past Legends panels. But it gets back to the core 421 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:42,000 premise that you know there's a lot of information out there, 422 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:46,520 but you know if you're making a decision, certainly in the 423 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:50,240 security and risk side, that could could cost your cost, your 424 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,160 organization everything. If there's a major breach or if 425 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:56,760 there's some some problem on the identity side, it certainly 426 00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:00,040 could lead to major problems or major opportunities. 427 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:04,080 If you if you do it correctly, you want to have the best in the 428 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,640 industry for for these recommendations. 429 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:11,760 So for example, on the Identity Legends panel, we have Andre 430 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,600 Durand who has been in the space. 431 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,400 He's a little younger than me, but almost as long as I have, 432 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:22,480 you know, built up Ping Identity did did a conference called 433 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:27,200 Digital ID World before that did Identivers. 434 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:29,800 You know, he's been in the middle of this space. 435 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:34,520 And you know, from my perspective, you know, Andre is 436 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:38,960 one of the good guys. He wants to do the right things 437 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:42,320 for the industry, wants to build companies and do all the things 438 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:46,480 business people do. But you know, he he really gets 439 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:51,960 it. We have Eve Mailer who you know 440 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:56,760 with CTO for years at Ford Rock. She's been in the middle of this 441 00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:01,000 space. She, you know has she was with 442 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:05,520 Forrester before that. She from an analyst perspective, 443 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,720 from an understanding of identity, from a user centric 444 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,240 perspective is an absolute superstar. 445 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:18,440 We have Lori Robinson, who runs Identity at Salesforce.com. 446 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:24,200 Now, Laurie has been, you know, in the middle of this space. 447 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:27,480 I had the pleasure to work with her at Burton Group over over 448 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,440 the years. She's one of the top thought 449 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:37,680 leaders at Gartner and now actually driving things at at 450 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:42,240 Salesforce. Kevin Campman who's part of Tech 451 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:48,560 Vision Kevin, Kevin was was with us from the early days at Burton 452 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:52,760 Group and he is probably, if you want to find the top IGA person 453 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:56,240 in the world, Kevin has covered that forever. 454 00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:02,600 But we have Martin Coppinger and and Martin has you know he's 455 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:10,120 built I believe the premier research firm that focuses on 456 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:13,120 identity and security and governance in Europe over the 457 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:19,120 years built, you know some fantastic conferences and is one 458 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,640 of the thought leaders you know in our industry. 459 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:26,440 So you know that's that's on the, that's on the identity 460 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,120 side. Do you want me to talk about the 461 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,640 Security Legends panel as well? Yeah, please. 462 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:36,320 In this area we've been extremely fortunate again. 463 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:42,560 We have on this panel several current and past Chief 464 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:47,080 Information Security officers and they're making a lot of the 465 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,480 the the hard decisions. I'll start with Malcolm Harkins. 466 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:57,720 Malcolm was the long time Chief Information Security Officer at 467 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:03,360 Intel really before being a SISO was was even a thing and really 468 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:09,080 LED them over the years a great speaker, a great thinker in this 469 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:15,080 area. We have Alex Toshev who is the 470 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:20,600 Chief Information Security Officer at VM Ware and well 471 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:24,800 known in in our industry not only for what he's done at VM 472 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:28,600 Ware but a lot of the Silicon Valley companies he's he's 473 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,360 helped and and and driven over the years. 474 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:36,000 We have Steve Roberts who is the Chief Information Security 475 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:42,080 Officer at Honda and Steve actually spoke with us last year 476 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:45,080 as well and did a did did a fantastic job. 477 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:55,480 We have Fred Cohen who is probably the, the, the deepest 478 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:59,040 thinker that that I've ever, you know dealt with in the 479 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:02,760 cybersecurity space. You also don't know exactly what 480 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:06,000 he's going to say, which which makes it makes it a lot of fun 481 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,520 and makes it very entertaining. But to give you a sense for 482 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:12,480 Fred, and he's work worked with me at Burton Group years ago, 483 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:18,760 but but Fred in his doctoral thesis back in the early 80s was 484 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:22,120 the first one to develop the concept of computer viruses. 485 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,480 And he correlated computer viruses with biological 486 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:30,280 developed a lot of the early remediation, you know, software 487 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:34,120 and so forth. And then Diana Kelly who most 488 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:40,880 people know she's she was also with us at Burton Group A great 489 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:44,800 analyst. She she was was a security 490 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:49,080 leader at IBM and Microsoft and now she's working with Protect 491 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,760 AI focused in you know some of the areas that that that we've 492 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:58,760 been talking about. So you know I, I I know from my 493 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:01,880 perspective if I'm going to go to an event and I'm going to 494 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:03,920 spend my time and I'm going to listen to people. 495 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:08,080 I want to listen to people who have that level of credibility 496 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,320 and when they say something, you know, I'm really going to listen 497 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:15,000 and get something out of it. Sounds like Crystal's going to 498 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:18,520 be a fantastic conference. I hope all of our listeners get 499 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,240 a chance to attend again that. Discount code. 500 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:24,040 Discount code. Yeah, we got to push that out 501 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:27,600 there one more time. It'll be in our DAC 24. 502 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:28,920 Yeah, it'll be in the show notes. 503 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:34,280 So what do you have Gary, planned beyond the conference? 504 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:39,680 What we want to do is take a lot of what we're what we're 505 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:43,000 discussing at the conference and and we were very intentional 506 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:45,600 wanting to have it right at the beginning of the year 'cause I 507 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:52,440 think this can represent a great planning foundation for large 508 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,760 enterprises. But that will then drive our 509 00:32:55,760 --> 00:33:00,080 research theme for the year. So you know we'll continue to 510 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:05,560 expand upon these topics, build build upon it a lot of coverage 511 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:09,840 of course on generative AI and artificial intelligence and its 512 00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:14,280 impact in these areas. Kevin Campman and I are about 513 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:20,160 85% of the way done with which would be a great document on 514 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:24,680 identity governance and administration and and we just 515 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:27,680 concluded you know big consulting project on that. 516 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:32,360 That's an important part of our research is and our conference 517 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:37,920 is you know to do a lot of the hands on work to be you know at 518 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:42,480 at client environments that are trying to figure these things 519 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:45,080 out. You get kind of a pragmatic 520 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:49,040 perspective that's difficult to get just you know pulling 521 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,560 information together in in doing research. 522 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:57,080 So you know one of the things Kevin talks a lot about which 523 00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:00,480 which I find interesting and we'll expand upon in our IGA 524 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:05,000 document and probably some some additional work this year is the 525 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,600 human element. And the fact that when we, when 526 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:12,199 we look at IGA, of course you know there are vendors that have 527 00:34:12,199 --> 00:34:15,520 IGA products and we think about it as a product, but it's a 528 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:18,480 process and it needs to fit into. 529 00:34:19,199 --> 00:34:22,600 You know if you think about digital and where it has gone 530 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:28,480 over the years, one of the biggest challenges is how do we 531 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:31,159 govern this, how do we manage it. 532 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,360 And it's not just on the identity side, it's what Kevin 533 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:38,639 will call Big G Big governance. How do we instantiate policies, 534 00:34:38,639 --> 00:34:42,560 how do we ensure that those policies make their way through 535 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:47,400 the identity systems and the security systems and and and so 536 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:50,239 on. We'll continue to do a lot of 537 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:57,840 focus on the research we just published our document on the 538 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:02,120 future of identity management. But we have a a top 12 list 539 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:09,920 there of areas that enterprises at least in our opinion should 540 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:13,640 should look to invest in. And we we kind of prioritize 541 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:18,120 those starting with governance, going to the this consolidated 542 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:22,240 platform to AI and machine learning and figuring out how to 543 00:35:22,240 --> 00:35:27,440 leverage that better integrating some of these capabilities and 544 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:31,880 so forth. And so we'll continue to push 545 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:35,440 out the research agenda, you know, push out our consulting, 546 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:40,960 but stay focused on this next generation of identity, security 547 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:44,880 and governance And you know how enterprises should should be 548 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:49,160 dealing with this as as you've pointed out given given the 549 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,600 change we have and it's not just in generative AI, just the 550 00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:56,880 change that we have throughout you know, handling the scale 551 00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:01,160 that we need to handle now, handling, you know, increased 552 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:06,720 regulatory controls and privacy controls and so forth, Lots and 553 00:36:06,720 --> 00:36:10,080 lots of challenges out there which I think will keep us busy 554 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:14,360 for the next year. I like this idea of what I'm 555 00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:18,840 gonna call working media, right. I mean you're you've got your 556 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:20,760 firm you're doing, you know this research stuff of that. 557 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,840 But you also do the consulting and Jim and I have this podcast 558 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:25,200 and we also do the consulting, right? 559 00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:29,280 We it, we're not theoretical scientists when it comes to 560 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:31,760 identity. We're very much in the weeds 561 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,920 with, you know, each of our customers learning from them 562 00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:37,040 what are the challenges are being faced in the real world. 563 00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:40,920 Which to be, to be honest, I find that refreshing personally 564 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:44,880 because I'm not in an ivory tower dealing with, well, this 565 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:49,240 is the way it should be and in the real world, that's not the 566 00:36:49,240 --> 00:36:51,640 Hawaii, it works right. The real world's messy. 567 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,080 There's politics. There's budgets. 568 00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:58,520 There's this old app that we've tried to get rid of for 20 years 569 00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,080 that is never going anywhere. And so you gotta plan around 570 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:03,640 that. So I I really enjoy those kind 571 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:07,080 of conversations and I love it when people bring so the real 572 00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:09,440 life right into the conversation as well. 573 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:11,400 It's kind of kind of what you referenced before. 574 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:14,160 Yeah, we're definitely of like minds there. 575 00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:18,800 You know, I think it it is, you know, in the end enterprises 576 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,640 need to build these things, architect them and deploy them. 577 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:25,120 And you know, it's not just speeds and feeds. 578 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:28,840 It's, you know, what works, How do you deploy it, how do you 579 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:34,200 integrate it and how does that tie in with your business? 580 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:38,520 You know, because in the end, a couple of years ago when when 581 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:44,000 Eve Mailer was on an earlier Identity Legends panel, one of 582 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:46,840 the things you know, she, she highlighted, which is kind of 583 00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:52,040 stuck with me is, you know, like like us folks that that look at 584 00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:54,720 identity. You know, we think that this is, 585 00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:57,720 you know, a really big thing. But if you're running a 586 00:37:57,720 --> 00:38:01,120 business, it's not like, you know, you really care about 587 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:05,000 that. You care about, you know how 588 00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:10,120 quickly a customer gets engaged. You care about how you provision 589 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:12,800 the right services to the right customers. 590 00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:15,200 You care about the security side. 591 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:24,400 But this, but you know the kind of integration of the kind of 592 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:31,520 practical business side with the you know technology helps us, 593 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:34,680 you know probably is stay focused really you know on the 594 00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,800 right thing which is how's your business going to be successful. 595 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:41,200 And these are all enabling technologies that you know, 596 00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:44,600 hopefully you know improve that bottom line, your customer 597 00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:48,160 relationships, retention and all of those good things. 598 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:50,080 I like that. I like that comment you made 599 00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:52,200 about you know what Eve said, right? 600 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:56,000 It the the, the business doesn't necessarily care how things are 601 00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:58,120 getting done as long as they're getting done the risk is low, 602 00:38:58,120 --> 00:38:59,040 right. All those good stuff. 603 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:02,200 I think that's probably good feedback for everybody. 604 00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:04,320 Everyone thinks there's the most important thing in the world. 605 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:06,680 No, I this is a lesson I learned. 606 00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:09,280 Serving table, you know, waiting tables way back when. 607 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:12,320 Your ranch dressing maybe isn't the most important thing in the 608 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:14,240 world right now. So we'll get to it. 609 00:39:14,240 --> 00:39:16,600 We'll get to it. Gary, you've been really 610 00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:18,920 generous with your time and I want to start to wrap things up, 611 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:21,840 but it wouldn't be an episode if we didn't end on a lighter note. 612 00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:24,760 And I'm gonna make this one a little bit holiday themed, 613 00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:27,080 'cause I think for the most part, I know you've been busy 614 00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:29,280 towards the end of the year and a lot of people really were like 615 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:32,720 end of year rush, but hopefully people had some time to kind of 616 00:39:32,720 --> 00:39:35,520 decompress and take some time off. 617 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:38,520 And typically around the holidays there's probably some 618 00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,000 good meals that are taking place, either family or other 619 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:43,320 things. What's the best thing that you 620 00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:45,800 ate over this most recent holiday break? 621 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:51,160 Well the best thing I'm I ate was was something I cooked I 622 00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:57,880 must say and it was A and and we had a traditional Turkey and so 623 00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:03,160 forth but especially with with. With my kids, who really love 624 00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:08,760 seafood, I made a pasta Primavera with shrimp, lobster 625 00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:13,160 and crab meat and that was that was a big hit and I must say I 626 00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:15,520 enjoyed it. That's a pretty good roll out 627 00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:17,920 there for sure. Jim, what did you have that was 628 00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:19,320 memorable for food over the break? 629 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:24,160 Yeah, and I my my item was something I cooked. 630 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:26,200 Also, it was the first time cooking it. 631 00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:30,800 It was a prime rib. I took a 5 LB prime rib and 632 00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:37,240 roasted it and turned out great. Now The funny thing was, our 633 00:40:37,240 --> 00:40:41,080 friend of the show, Arturo, texted me. 634 00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:43,200 He was doing the same thing but on New Year's. 635 00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:48,120 I said, hey man, I've got the perfect thing. 23 minutes at 350 636 00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:53,000 per pound, 23 minutes per pound. And he wrote me back later, 637 00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:55,440 overcooked. I was like, man, I ruined the 638 00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:59,200 guy's prime rib. But I don't like my meat to be 639 00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:01,000 bleeding out and stuff like that. 640 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:04,440 So it was, it was pre mellow. It was wonderful. 641 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:07,280 What about you, Jeff? Honestly, I had a few things and 642 00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:09,120 so I'm selfish. And I came up with this question 643 00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:10,840 and I was like, I I ate good over the break. 644 00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:15,680 My wife is a very good chef and so she made her a bunch of 645 00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:18,080 things We had prime rib for for Christmas Eve dinner. 646 00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:22,360 That was fantastic. We did a ham, but it wouldn't be 647 00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:25,200 me saying something if it wasn't something that wasn't good for 648 00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:30,640 you as a Christmas present. My wife got me the Ninja like 649 00:41:31,240 --> 00:41:33,680 it's like an ice cream blender thing. 650 00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:34,920 I can't remember what it's called. 651 00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:38,040 Basically, you can make your own Blizzards if you're familiar 652 00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:41,080 with Dairy Queen and you drop your ice cream in, You can make 653 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:43,840 ice cream in it, but you drop your mixins and it does the 654 00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:45,280 whole thing where it mixes together. 655 00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:48,040 And I gotta tell you, we're not sponsored by Ninja, but I would 656 00:41:48,240 --> 00:41:50,640 happily be sponsored by Ninja to talk about this thing all day 657 00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:54,120 long because I have been eating ice cream like every day for 658 00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:57,920 like the last week. So I ordered a peloton today to 659 00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:01,320 replace my old one, but that was by far. 660 00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:03,920 It was like the coolest thing was making your own, like 661 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:07,080 blizzards at home and it comes out chef's kiss. 662 00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:10,400 I might have to buy one of those. 663 00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:13,680 Yeah, me too. I just got a ninja air fryer. 664 00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:15,280 Air Fryers are the best thing ever. 665 00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:18,160 That That means you can bring fries home and you don't have to 666 00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:21,280 worry about it. Yeah, I've only done a few 667 00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:23,040 things. I just just got it a couple 668 00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:26,240 weeks ago, but yeah, the yearly results are very good. 669 00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:27,240 Yep. Drop them. 670 00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:30,840 You can drop the McDonald's fries in and you put it for 671 00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:34,160 about 3:50 or so for about four minutes. 672 00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:36,600 Crystal them right up tight, man. 673 00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:38,600 We're living good now. So we're talking ice cream, 674 00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:40,360 we're talking fried foods. Yeah. 675 00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:42,280 I and I ordered a peloton rower today. 676 00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:45,400 So that's me getting hopefully into better shape for 2024. 677 00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:48,840 That's a good spot where I think we'll leave it for this week. 678 00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:51,240 Gary, thank you so much for taking the time with us. 679 00:42:51,240 --> 00:42:53,080 Really looking forward to the Chrysalis conference. 680 00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:58,120 For those who haven't registered yet, use our code IDAC 2 Four, 681 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:00,120 that'll be in our show notes as well. 682 00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:03,160 Take advantage of that. And thank you to Gary for that 683 00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:06,000 partnership and providing that for all of our great listeners 684 00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:08,640 out there. And we'll have links in our show 685 00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:12,600 notes to Gary if you want to ask him questions on LinkedIn to the 686 00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:15,600 Chrysalis event itself, so people can check out the agenda 687 00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:19,000 and stuff like that and register as well as there's a report that 688 00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:21,440 I think you guys are coming up with or maybe it's already out 689 00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:23,040 the future of identity management. 690 00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:27,160 It's sort of like the next five years in 30 to 60 seconds. 691 00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:29,600 Give us like, what is that report about? 692 00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:35,160 So that report is one that we've done each of the past like 6 693 00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:43,360 years and we put together a prioritized list of the areas 694 00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:47,320 that enterprises should be thinking about architecting and 695 00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:50,600 investing in. So we first I had a top ten 696 00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:54,720 list, now we have a top 12 list. It it ties into some of the 697 00:43:54,720 --> 00:43:57,280 macro trends that we talked about earlier. 698 00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:01,920 But, but it's a way that enterprises can basically say, 699 00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:04,680 you know, as we're thinking about our identity program this 700 00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:09,160 year, you know, here's kind of a third party assessment of some 701 00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:11,240 of the things we need to be thinking about. 702 00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:13,080 And so we'll have a link to that in our show notes. 703 00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:15,600 People can check that out as well. 704 00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:18,320 I'm. I love thinking about the 705 00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:20,920 future, so I'm curious to see what's gonna come up out of 706 00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:21,640 this. You know what? 707 00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:24,120 For me, it's like, OK, what should I be thinking about and 708 00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:26,640 what should I not care about? Because I have enough things to 709 00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:29,480 think about. Anything that whittles down what 710 00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:31,480 I need to keep in my brain, I'm always a fan of. 711 00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:33,560 So hopefully there'll be some good Nuggets coming out of that. 712 00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:37,640 You can find us on the web ID acpodcast.com. 713 00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:40,200 Don't forget to use that voicemail button, Start sending 714 00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:43,840 those voicemails in. And lucky, lucky winners that 715 00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:47,280 we'll use on the show for voicemails will get a copy of of 716 00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:49,360 the book that we'll be announcing as well. 717 00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,000 So that's from Phil Winley. Jim, what's the name of that 718 00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:54,240 book again? Learning digital identity. 719 00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:57,120 Yeah, yours, everybody. What everybody Who Listens 720 00:44:57,120 --> 00:45:00,960 podcast probably wants to do. Well, you know, kind of a teaser 721 00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:03,520 for the next episode. You know, Phil comes on the show 722 00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:05,320 and and Jim's holding up his book. 723 00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:07,400 Like, look at me, I I've read your book. 724 00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:10,520 It's a heavy book, man. If you read a book that big, 725 00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:12,960 you'd be proud of yourself too. Yeah, I'm not a reader. 726 00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:14,280 I'll wait for the movie. How about that? 727 00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:19,720 I don't think it'll be a mess, mass market kind of thing. 728 00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:22,160 Hey, you never know. Like this podcast, right? 729 00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:24,080 We still continue to grow. You never know, maybe there'll 730 00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:26,600 be an IAM movie at some point. All right, on the web, 731 00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:29,840 idacpodcast.com, on Twitter or X or whatever we're calling it 732 00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:33,240 this year. IDAC Podcast Mastodon at IDAC 733 00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:37,160 Podcast at infosec dot exchange. Feel free to connect with us on 734 00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:39,360 LinkedIn as well, check out our show notes. 735 00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:41,800 And don't forget to, like, subscribe and keep sharing the 736 00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:43,880 the gospel of identity at the center with others. 737 00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:46,560 So appreciate everyone for listening and we'll talk with 738 00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:50,400 everyone in the next one. You've been listening to 739 00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:54,280 Identity at the Center. We hope you've enjoyed the show. 740 00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:58,680 Make sure to like, rate and review and we'll be back soon. 741 00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:01,120 But in the meantime, hit the website at 742 00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:08,240 identity@thecenter.com and find us on Twitter at IDAC Podcast. 743 00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:12,800 See you next time on Identity at the Center.