You can't be secure without identity.
You can't deliver online services without identity.
You cannot deliver employee productivity without, you can't
do anything really. You can't do this podcast
without identity. So there's a lot of things I
think which will probably surprise non identity
practitioners. I think for the for the, for the
people who've been in the identity space for a long time,
I think it will give a better set of analytical tools.
I think there's a lot of assumptions you can make if you
spend time a long time in any technology sector.
And I think it's really about unpicking some of those maybe
bad habits or, or, or complacencies we all get into
and trying to say, look, have a a fresher and I guess more
contemporary analytical framework to look at how
identity should be measured, how it should be integrated or
problems it should be solving in trying to help analyse both the
vendors and also existing deployments.
Because nobody has the luxury of, of designing things from
scratch and picking out the best technologies.
You have to deal with existing systems, existing problems.
So I think the big take away will be at least provide people
with a set of analytical tools that they can look at their
existing systems, existing vendors, existing suppliers and
be a little bit more informed around what success looks like.
This is identity at the centre if it has anything to do with
IAM. This is the go to podcast now
your hosts Jim McDonald and Jeff Steadman.
Welcome to the Identity Center Podcast.
I'm Jeff, and that's Jim. Hey, Jim.
Hey, Jeff, how are you? Oh, not so bad yourself.
I'm doing great One. I do have one complaint, OK.
No, that's shocking. You complain.
No, only one. That's the shocking part.
So. It's what is it 1 complaint with
like 8 different bullet points. Yeah, exactly.
Now we've got we've, we're doing awesome in terms of or what I
should say is our listeners are doing awesome in terms of, you
know, downloading the podcast, listening to it mostly unlike
audio only formats. I've checked out our YouTube
site, our numbers. What would you call those rookie
numbers right? So not complaining is definitely
not knocking our listeners be. Careful, Jim, don't don't take
off our listeners. I'm not taking off the listeners
hopefully, but what I wanted to say was I was watching this
channel earlier today, so it was beard versus food.
The guys had a video out for one year where he eats a pizza.
Basically he eats a pizza during the episode. 8.5 million views.
So he's doing something right that we're not doing.
What it what could it be? Doing something right, I don't
know about right. Doing something that's attracted
viewers, I guess I don't know. I mean, if you have a beard, if
you want to eat pizza while recording, and if you think
that'll get, you know, people to like and subscribe, we can give
it a shot. Well, I'm up for anything, so
I'll give it a shot. I'll give it a shot.
I'll take a video of me eating pizza.
We'll see if we get 8.5 million views.
Unlikely, but hey, you never know.
This is how this is how maybe you go viral, right?
I'm. Pretty sure you can monetize
that many views, right? I mean, for sure, yeah.
I mean, if you're having, if you're pulling that stuff in,
you know, that'll probably pay for, for the pizza that you're
eating. No, so OK, so beard versus food
is the guy that does all these eating challenges.
So the pizza was a 30 inch pizza.
So it's pretty much like the size of the moon.
And he ate the whole thing in one sitting.
And he was the first person to ever beat this challenge was
actually at a pizza place in Norway.
So really cool channel. I think there's a lot of
channels out there, but I think, you know, the coolest one is
still identity at the center. Oh, without a doubt, it does
make me wonder about your algorithm.
Like why is? Why is this being pushed into
your feed? No, I well, well, two things.
One is I'm going to Norway next week, so I've watched a lot of
videos as I've covered in past episodes.
I think the other thing is that like, this guy's channel is
awesome. Watching people eat like massive
amounts of food in like 20 minutes is pretty entertaining.
I I'm I'm struggling with why this is entertaining.
It's just watching people eat, like what's the point?
He's doing something that you can't do if you can use a 30
inch pizza. I mean, I'm sure you could build
a heck of a following. OK, well I guess to each their
own. Yeah, I guess so.
So we should talk about our conferences.
By the way, I'm going to have a cache of stickers with me at
every conference. I'm going to make sure that
you've got a pocket full of stickers too, at all times.
So folks see me or you. That's not the reason to go out
to YouTube, so they can see our face and recognize us when they
see us on the conference floor. We have stickers and they're
good stickers. They are like vinyl stickers.
So they're kind of weatherproof, dishwasher proof, all that, and
we'll have them. Yeah, Jim is very proud of these
stickers, so you definitely want to get one for sure.
Let's talk about the conferences because you and I are going to
be at EIC and well, by the time people listen to this tomorrow,
we'll see you tomorrow. So it's kind of the last chance
for people to use a discount code.
If you haven't already registered, you know, probably
want to get on that, but it's May 6th or the 9th.
If you use the code IDAC 25 MKO, that'll get you 25% off.
Like I said, if you're listening to this, chances are you're
probably already registered or you're not going to be there,
but we will be at EIC and looking forward to that.
Then we've got the Identiverse conference coming up that's in
Las Vegas. So kind of a quick turn from
Europe over to the US. June 3rd, the 6th, we have the
code IDV 25-I D AC25, another 25% off for that one.
So we hope to see lots of friendly faces there and I think
we're at the spot now. We're going to say, hey, we are
bringing our game show to Identiverse and we have, at
least for now called it Identisquabble.
So this. Is finalized on the name
Identisquabble. For now, right.
And I gave a lot of thought over this and then you just kind of
blurted it out, I think yesterday in real time as we're
talking about this, like, Oh yeah, that's better than
anything I've been thinking about.
So we'll just go with that. So yeah, Identisquabble, we're
going to kick off, I think the Expo kind of opening night in
the Expo hall. So we'll have a space there.
I will bring my cameras and I definitely want to try and turn
this into an episode. But if you're familiar with what
we did at the Authenticate conference last year, it is a
Family Feud style game. So Jim is going to be a team
captain. We're going to have another team
captain, a couple of team mates for each of those.
We're going to have judges and things like that.
They're going to help with, you know, deciphering the answers
that our contestants come up. And I will be playing the role
of MC or Steve Harvey or whatever you want to call me,
trying to keep these cats moving in the same direction.
So looking forward to that. Definitely want to invite people
out to that. So if you're going to be in
Ideniverse at Ideniverse in Las Vegas, definitely come check us
out the opening. I think we're the first on 1st
on the board that night. So I think it's like 5:30 or
6:00 PM or something like that, that we'll be there.
But look forward to seeing friendly faces and having some
fun. So it's going to be just a fun
you. I don't know if you'll learn
anything, Jim, but hopefully you'll be entertained.
Yeah, I mean, I think you'll learn how goofy we can get, but
I think it'll be a good time. So I'm really excited about the
guests that we have. As somebody that I've known in
this identity space since all the way back in his four Drock
days and before we got started recording, he mentioned he's on
the Ubuntu computer, which I thought, oh, that's, that's so
him, that's and that's so Legacy 4 Drock Classic to be on some
version of a Linux laptop. So I had to or I'm I'm not sure
if it's a laptop or a desktop. I shouldn't say laptop, but why
don't you go ahead and introduce him?
I mean, it's Linux. It could be anything.
It could be a Flipper 0 for anything that he could be
recording on right now. So yeah.
It could be a black BlackBerry, right?
Right, Who knows? Yeah, let's introduce Simon
Muffet. He's an identity researcher and
author. He's an identity podcaster, just
like we are, and he's the founder of the Cyber Hut.
So, Simon, welcome to the show. Hi guys, it's great.
Great. To be honest.
It's it's, I've listened to you guys for a while.
As you know, it's, it's a small world and the identity space,
albeit it's getting bigger. So you guys doing a, doing a
great job in, in entertaining us and informing us of all of the
identity worlds. But it, it is a laptop, it is a,
it's a Linux laptop. I I don't know why I fell in too
Ubuntu actually it wasn't really a forge rock thing or be it
being in the open source game I guess for that's all 1020 years
I suppose. But I, I, I fell into using
Ubuntu 15 years ago and I don't know not not really seen it all
to not a Mac fan and I didn't nobody likes Microsoft.
Did I? Should I say that?
Hey, hey, I'm on a man. So I, I just, I've used lyrics
and Ubuntu for a long, long time.
I think everything's browser based these days, isn't it?
It's everything's web-based, so I, I totally fully enjoy having
a very lightweight laptop or I probably can't see.
I, I, my Kindle is my, is my main device of choice these
days, a nice old fashioned Scribe and a Kindle and my
mobile phone. I can, I can just about get by
most days with that. I'm just the five years of the
laptop may may disappear, but that's that's probably another
podcast worth of conversation. But what what devices we may end
up using in a, you know, five years from now, I guess.
Well, I. Think we can definitely have a
conversation about that at some point because I think if you've
been following like where some of the tech companies are going,
it's glasses are back, right? Maybe it's, you know, Google
Glass was a big thing a couple years back and then, you know,
now we're getting back into what I would call more normal looking
glasses. And I have some that I use like
when I travel that are, you know, I plug it into my phone
and I can watch a video and a a movie like it and a huge screen.
But yeah, there's a lot going on for sure.
I'd like to get to know more about you, Simon.
So one of the things we like to do with the first time that we
have people on the show for the first time, and I'm kind of
shocked that it took 347 episodes to do that, is let's
find out about your background. How did you get into the space
of identity and access management or digital identity
or whatever the heck we're calling it these days?
Is this something you chose or did it choose you?
It, it seems a long time ago. I, I started in 2001.
So that's nearly nearly 25 years, which is, I mean, that's
an absolute eternity in, in any technology or any career, I
guess. And I think identity has seen
just huge transformation in that time.
But I, I, I did sort of fall into it ultimately.
I did, I did economics at university with Microsoft first
degree, utterly unrelated to identity and access management.
And you sort of roll out of university at sort of 2122.
What, what should I do in this big, big wide world?
And I, I ultimately, I took on a contract straight out of
university for three months working for a large insurance
company in the UK. And it wasn't a particularly
complicated contract, as you can imagine at the age of 22 or
something. You know, we have many great
life skills at this age. And the, the, the job was for
three months to do mainframe Security Administration.
And the project essentially was this, this insurance company had
about 3637 thousand users and they ran it out of user IDs.
Can you believe it on their racket for mainframe system.
Long story short, they run out of I DS.
So the project, they pulled in three or four graduates who we
all didn't know anything about mainframes or identity or
anything like this. And they brought us in for three
months and we essentially had to go through this list by hand,
36,000 identities within rack F and essentially copy and paste
them onto a new rack FID. So if your ID was, I think it
was something like 5 numbers in a letter, so say 12345 and then
A and we have to essentially change the ID to be something
like 123456 and then A, something like this.
I can't remember the details well.
We literally had a print out everyday from PeopleSoft and
used to go through this list, find the ID within RACF and then
copy and paste and set up all of the TSO options.
The the job control language stuff, the data says all this
stuff. I knew nothing about the age of
22, but it was all by hand. So there's no, there was no
connectors, there was no provisioning systems, there was
no ticketing systems. So they, they essentially
brought in actual people to with sort of shovels to shovel
through this huge list of mainframe identities.
And obviously the project never lasted 3 months.
It lasted 12 months. And that was my first taste of,
well, first and last taste of, of mainframe Security
Administration and TSOIDS and job control languages and Karla
languages and all this crazy, crazy stuff.
But it did get me into this identity world and and from
there I spent another three or four years in house for this
insurance company looking after their Novell E directory
directory services for the mainframe looking after 30-40
thousand identities in Novell. And that was then replaced by
Active Directory. So all of the good learning
skills you're looking having to look after servers.
People remember servers that don't get serviced anymore.
So having to look after servers, having to do health checks,
having to script things, having to build out sort of resilience
and and directory replication topologies and all this really
by hand stuff, which no way do you need to do in 2025.
But as as a young guy starting my career, it was great.
You know, I learnt, I learnt loads.
I was working with experienced professionals, technology of all
calibres, you know, old fashioned mainframes, what at
the time was pretty cutting edge Novell directory.
So it was, it was a really good apprenticeship if you like.
I did that for four or five years and then I went into
consultancy for a couple of years, similar sort of stuff,
Directory services, moving a little bit more into the sort of
networky world as well, VPNs and firewalls and the like, but
still very much focused on, on the directory.
And then I guess I got a big break, if you like, probably six
years into that. I, I, I started and I, I didn't
start. I joined a startup called Value,
which was one of the early pioneers in role based access
control and identity certification and access review.
And they had a, a stellar two or three years and were then
acquired by Sun Microsystems. They become Sun role manager as
part of the, the open source Sun stack, Sun identity manager, the
DS Sun access manager, all this stuff.
And they acquired this tiny company called Value as part of
their role based access control strategy.
And the rest is history after that.
If you like a lot of time then spent in the in the vendor
world. And it's yeah, it's, it's
looking back even sort of the early 2000s, things just have
changed just substantially really in a, in a whole host of
ways. I did 15 years in the vendor
landscape at a time. So Microsystems, they were then
acquired by Oracle. I had a couple of years at
Oracle looking after the European identity business there
for Oracle Identity Analytics. And then I spent a good eight or
nine years at another open source company called Forge
Rock, at least partially open source, started, started open
source, ended up closed source for various different reasons.
It was a great journey, great journey.
I was doing sort of solution architectural work and finished
off doing four or five years as a, as a product manager there
for, for their access management technologies.
And as part of that, to sort of close this little story off,
part of that process was looking at emerging technologies.
What, what should four drop do next?
Looking at start-ups, looking at standards, looking at OF2 and OP
ID connect and what what what's going to happen next.
And it was a struggle because I couldn't, I couldn't find the
information I was looking for. And yeah, we have big research
agencies out there doing high levels quadrants and compasses
and this sort of stuff. But I was struggling to find
that knowledge of the next big thing if like the start-ups, the
emerging patterns, use cases, etcetera.
And that really was the inspiration to set up for an
organization called the Cyberhuts, which I set up during
the pandemic. If, if, if there's ever a
difficult time to start a business, do it during the
pandemic when the whole world is shut down.
But I actually, in hindsight, it was a huge opportunity because
everybody else was at home as well.
So I, I found at the Cyberhooks the end of 2020, start of 2021,
looking all of the exciting, cool emerging identity
technologies, use cases, patterns, vendors, all that sort
of stuff. And attempt now to to deliver
enablement research, Fender guides, training, all of the
stuff to just help the world understand our our amazing
identity, practitioner knowledge, vendor knowledge and
all that stuff. And it feels like a really good,
really good journey. So a lot of lot of knowledge
accumulated in that time. A lot of a lot of change, as you
can imagine, as you guys have seen as well.
I think the world has changed spectacularly even the last 10
years, let alone last 25 S Things like servers.
Well, exactly. You know, they've got AI to deal
with as well. So it's it's been great.
I feel feel privileged actually to, to be doing what I'm doing
now, which is essentially being briefed by technology vendors,
understanding what's happening next, understanding what use
cases are being solved and attempting to translate that
into into consumable knowledge. You feel like it's, of all the
jobs I've had over the last sort of 25 years, I feel this is the,
this is the nicest job, I think. Is there a particular content
that you like that you kind of have an affinity to?
Is it written? Is it audio?
Is it reports? Is it research?
Is it thinking about the future, Right.
And sort of ideating, like where is this thing going?
And we're going to get to a book you're writing, you know, on
that topic. But is there a a specific thing
that you really kind of like? Yeah, this is really my favorite
part of this part of what I do. Oh wow, yeah, I think content is
really interesting for me. I think it has the, the
technology has changed, so has content.
And I think you know, we, we have, we are swamped with
material. We have material everywhere on
your phone, your Kindle, you can research anything, 30 inch
pizzas if you want, you know, wherever you go, whatever you
want to buy a new car, you can find as much content as as you
like. So information overload is the
issue. So I think it's it's trying to
deliver content in in design material.
In a variety of ways. And that's something definitely
the Cyprus experimented with being, yeah, the podcast thing,
but also taking maybe a big research report and then
breaking that down into a whole host of different channels and
different opportunities from one or two-minute training or videos
or training shorts by guys training in the written form.
So that this, I think the content aspect is, is totally
changed. I think for me personally, I
like to read and write. I think most people do.
I consume via reading, but I also helps me think to write.
So if I'm ever stuck on something that I write, because
then I can much more easily understand it.
And if I can understand it, I can then deliver that in a way
which other people can. But I think it's, it's always
about, to me, there's three things you should always be
doing 3 ES essentially educate the audience, empower them and
maybe entertain them a little bit as well.
So it's how you can get some of these, some of these complex
topics we're all engaged with. Now.
How can we put that across in, in simpler ways?
And I think we have to do it in a variety, whether it's written
books, reports, podcasts, whatever.
Simon, I have a question about your writing process.
Take us through that. Like do you like to write it at
night to like to write in coffee shops?
Or what is your What's the perfect situation for you to get
the most creativity out of your time?
Do you know, do you know, I think there's, there's a few,
there's a few parts to this. A lot of people like this is my
second book I've done. So that's I don't know how many
pages I did 700 pages, but I, I as an analyst, I write for a
living in the sense of I write all the time.
It's writing isn't difficult. And I, I say this with a bit of
a quip here, but the difficult part is thinking about what to
write. The act of writing something if
it's researched and thought about it should take seconds.
It should take as, as as quick to write as it does to read.
In my opinion. That's how I typically like it
to operate. And my, my modus operandi is I'm
thinking and by thinking, I've got my Kindle here now, my
Kindle and my Scribe. I use this daily, hours per day,
writing, sketching notes, small things.
I'm quite pictorial, so I'm like pictures, matrices and diagrams
and drawings and stuff like this.
And I will do that constantly. But a lot of the time it's
thinking, thinking about the topic, thinking around the
topic, thinking sort of through the topic and trying to create
counterpoints and I guess arguing myself out of a
particular position, for example.
And I think if you spend time on that aspect, on the thinking
aspect, the writing to me is, is relatively relatively simple.
But you, I think you do have to be dedicated at it to, it's a
bit like going to the gym. It's you have to do a little bit
everyday, 20 minutes, thirty minutes, 15 minutes.
Even if you have writer's block or content block or whatever,
just just do something, something, a little a line, a
sentence, a word, anything. And that just continues to push
that rock a little bit further forward.
But I think, yeah, I, I, I'm always jotting stuff down.
I've got reams and reams and notes for all sorts of stuff.
And it, over time it's sort of builds out a bigger picture.
And then the execution aspect, physical active writing is, is
pretty straightforward for me personally.
You've mentioned the. Podcast and I've mentioned it as
well. Tell us something about the
analyst brief, because you do this with our friend David
Mahdi's. And I'm curious, like, what is
the topic? You know, how did you get this
thing started? And just tell us a bit more
about that. Yeah, it's, it's nice.
It's not as professional as this one though.
Guys, this is, you know, this is the you, you guys are doing the
professionals. So we, I guess the honest brief
is, is, is a couple of things. Really, I think it's we try to
make it part of that contemporary back to that
content view. You're trying to provide that
contemporary comment, if you like.
There's, there's, there's so much material, so many vendors
doing so many amazing things, product launches, features,
mergers, acquisitions. There's so much happening.
And I think the analyst brief that the real modus operandi
there was to try and provide a bit of commentary, really a bit
of simple commentary as to what is happening.
It's not every week, it's probably a couple of times a
month. Really it's, it's trying to
provide that commentary around, look, there's so much change
around technology identity, security, all of these
overlapping technology areas and just try and provide a little
bit of clarity there, a little bit of an independent view, you
know, cut out. The vendor.
Speak or the the solution providers speak and the gimmicks
and the acronyms provide a bit of real commentary there.
Peel Back had a bit of history and they had some stories, maybe
call out some of the vendors perhaps, or maybe call out some
of the situations or the buzz terms or whatever it can be.
But just to provide that, that that weekly or that monthly view
of this is the snapshot of what's happening.
This is a bit of an independent view of of how things are going,
maybe why they're heading in that way.
So it's, it's trying to provide that contemporary view, if you
like, of, of all the change which is happening.
And it's there's a lot of change as, as you can, as you can tell,
there's all this, all the technology change, there's a lot
of stuff happening. So it's, yeah, it's trying to
provide that, that comment. I think it's the, it's the, it's
the big goal. Well, there's so much to cover.
I feel like, you know, when Jim and I started this six years ago
now, I guess at this point it's like, all right, well, at some
point we're going to run out of things to talk about Lean.
It's identity and access management.
What can you possibly do? And here we are, you know, six
years later, 347 episodes and counting, and there's just
always something happening and there's something new to report
on. And, you know, you're putting
out so much content between the podcast and the reports and the,
I guess the the Moffett laws of identity security that you put
out over this year. Tell me a little bit about what
those laws are and what are you trying to get out into the
identity sphere of influence with those things?
That was good. I quite like a lot of the stuff
that side but does and quite a lot of the stuff I do really
personally is, is just to get conversation going, is to get
discussion going, involving as many different people as
possible, many different voices. And for me it's always about the
signals which which get generated the conversations, not
necessarily to be provocative or get people disagreeing, but just
to get people thinking and discussing.
And the laws was part of that. Laws was a tongue in cheek,
tongue in cheek thing around describing it or having to try
and describe what what are some of the best practices really
around this, this area of protecting our identity
infrastructure, our identity landscape because it's under
attack. You know, there's there's no
question about that. You can Google, Google on any
day of the week and you can find a daily breach of some
description and it probably has identity at the centre.
They'll put into there's identity somewhere in those
breach reports. So the, the, the, the techniques
and tactics and procedures, they're somewhere in there.
Whether it's human or non human identity, something's gone wrong
with that identity landscape. So the laws, the laws aspect was
friends. Look, we need to just have a,
have a conversation here around what identity security looks at.
How can we protect all of this identity stuff that we have in
there? And to be honest, there's one of
two disagreements. So that the big the biggest
disagreement for those who haven't read them all, there's,
there's 10 basic statements in there.
I think there's #3 which is the one which always gets people
chatting. I think it's the carbon life.
They'll go on, They'll go on that you can tie food.
They think that the law was something around every identity
should at some stage be tied back to a carbon life forms a
physical person ultimately, especially for the workloads,
NHI, agenda, Ki, you name it. Smart TV's what anything where
there isn't a physical person there.
And it was, I think a lot of people once they actually
understand and nod and agree actually, yeah, that's probably
not a bad thing. But the problem is with this is
that actually a lot of our human identity records and identity
profiles are not linked to a carbon life form either, which
is this subtle part which a lot of people miss because even if
you're you're Active Directory record, it's not necessarily
tied to a biometric validated and verified identity.
It's just Simon's AD entry with the UPN and whatever else.
So there's a bit of a subtlety in that around trying to make
this real for, for, for all identities.
But yeah, the, the laws is really again, having some
discussion putting the flag in this.
I don't want to own the flag in the sand, but I will put the
flag there and we can all at least dance around it or discuss
it and get that get those topics and people's agenda around talk
about policy, talking about clean plenty of this of of
identity data, humans, people, software devices.
Let's talk about all of that stuff as well and just yeah,
raise awareness was the was the idea behind it.
So. Simon, I remember when you
posted this on LinkedIn, I went out and read them.
And by the way, I think one of the things I know you for and
probably other people knew you for is you're not afraid to be
bold. And I exactly #3 jumps off the
page to me because I agree with it and I know most people don't
agree with it. It's that, you know, basically
every say the controversial part, they're not the
controversial part is that every non human identity must back map
to a physical person who essentially owns it who can
speak for it. I do think the one potential
exception is that if AI becomes advanced enough, it could be a
representation of a person, in other words, able to make
decisions. So I think that at some, and I
don't think we're there now, but at some point you might have a
company where there aren't people or basically the whole
company is run by bots and maybe those bots are the decision
makers and identities as we know them are owned by that bot.
So I think that could be an exception.
I know you know, that's super sci-fi at the moment, but I
thought, let me argue. Against that point, because I
think those bots, unless this is a 100% AI company, there is
still theoretically a human at the very top.
They might be the CEO of, you know, founder, bottle washer,
janitor and all these agents or AI or whatever things that will
map to them. I could do we get to the point
where an entire company, like a legal entity, a definition of a
company is 100% AII have a feeling we would probably put a
stop to that at some point, at least until the AI takes over
the judicial system and the governance and stuff like that.
But. Here's my thought on that.
Jeff because I think that's, that's a good point.
But I think the intent of that statement or that law is that a
person who is accountable for it.
In other words, you understand enough about what is doing to
say whether or not it should be, should exist.
If you have a billion baht company or say a billion dollar
size company and it's all robots and maybe there are a few humans
at the top, those humans probably can't be accountable at
that level. And you may delegate the
decision to a bot that is smart enough to determine whether or
not that access is appropriate. A lot of supposing there, But I
think that the key point is what Syme made, which is essentially
that some life form, whether it's artificial or real, has to
be able to make the decisions for identities, like an identity
that, you know, runs a like a computer process or robotic
process. You know, you just can't like
leave these things kind of unattended and have nobody
accountable for deciding whether or not that access is
appropriate. And I think that is that is my
concern is that when we call these identities, to me, they're
really accounts. They're accounts that exist.
They're not identities, I I. Agree.
I just disagree. I, I think the, the
accountability thing is, is really what, what what's
important here. I think there's a good slide
that does the, does the rounds, I think on, on LinkedIn and
socials. It's by IBM, the 70s and it
talks about no, no machine should have decision making
capabilities or management capabilities.
Maybe it says because it can't be held accountable now that
that accountability is really important.
It is. It's just also a separation
between decision making and accountability.
Now, if you talk about a genetic AI and and whatever may come
over the next decade, all for autonomous decision making that
that's just going to happen. There's no way you can let you
know you get get in the way of that and put the put the genie
back in the bottle. That's going to happen.
Autonomous decision making, which is perfectly legitimate if
you have accountability of a chain of accountability around
who has the final say who, who is going to be the person on the
hook in the court of law to say, yes, that was me, that was my
responsibility to do so. And I think soon, as soon as you
have a disconnection there, you have a whole host of, of
liability issues and and process issues and governance issues
around how that data processing or how the organization should
be run. So it was really all about
saying, look, we have this brand new world potentially of, of
autonomous decision making, which is absolutely necessary
and scalable. We have to have some sort of
accountability there. And it may just start off being
a team. You know, it could be a team
that responds to an oath to client.
This team, this, you know, SEC OPS team owns this particular
oath to client perfectly fine because you then know who in
that team to go and knock on the door and say hey, this this or
two client is whatever behaving suspiciously or whatever it
could be. But you need to have that
lineage, I think to a physical person.
Yeah, maybe 100 years from now or 50 years from now, we do have
bot wars. And you know, I watched the film
recently, the electric electric state.
It was called electric state film.
That was pretty, pretty Skyfire with robots and humans and
stuff. And there's absolutely some,
some potentially terrifying use cases ahead.
So being held. Accountable for being held
accountable for an AI would be you're getting unplugged for 10
years. It's like going to jail.
Exactly. Exactly.
So yeah, the whole thing about the laws was having these sort
of conversations. I think it's you've got to
start. You've got to start somewhere, I
think. So this this whole topic of AI
fascinates me. And I think we're sort of in an
inflection point here where people are starting to wonder,
well, am I going to have a job when AI comes around?
And one of the things that's been making the rounds, I think,
you know, especially in the consulting world and probably
the analyst world as well. Can I just have an AI do the
same things that Jim, Jeff and Simon are doing if it's just
spitting out stuff? And there was an article that
was put out by Mike Neuenschwander around this very
topic. And I think he's hopefully right
that it's like, yeah, we're not dead yet.
There's still plenty to go. And, and I think there's still
going to be opportunities for being able to leverage those
types of tools. But maybe take, hey, here is
Simon's brain maybe to some degree, and here's what he's
thinking. But you're always going to have
the individual human element where, you know, we're ideating,
we're thinking about, OK, where things are going.
And at some point maybe we do borrow that line a little bit.
But where do you feel about AI? And, you know, there's this idea
about replacing consulting, you know, for any number of topics
because it's not just I am, right, it's doctors, it's
lawyers. I mean, there's all kinds of
stuff happening right now. Absolutely right.
Look, I think first of all, progress is is always scary I
think for all parts of of society and for all parts of of
the world. And I think this is a few
cliches you can throw out around, you know, futures here.
It's just not evenly distributed and things like this.
And you know, the industrial revolution, I doing this podcast
now sort of 20 minutes South of Manchester, which was the sort
of world's first industrialised city sort of 250 years ago.
And obviously when the industrial revolution came
along, that was a scary place. If you're a subsistence farmer
in rural Cheshire or Midwest or whatever, it could be suddenly,
wow, this huge big city with factories and mills and
automation, steam engines and this sort of stuff that that's a
pretty scary time. The pros and cons for where the
industrial revolution has taken us, I guess.
But ultimately it was changed, which you couldn't stop.
So I think AI is here to say, first of all, I think will it
impact jobs? Yeah, absolutely will, no doubt
about that for the next probably 3-5, ten years, I guess a lot of
jobs, which repeatable jobs, which will be automated purely
for productivity reasons. Flip side, of course, if you're
looking at things like government services, health
triage systems, banking systems, government services where you do
have finite resources, you don't, you can't do everything
with the budgets you have. You leverage automation.
So there's positive benefits to being able to triage and scale
services in certain ways. I guess back to your question
around replacement of people, we've experimented with, with
stuff for the cyber with, with AI, virtual analyst stuff for
internal uses. And by that we've we've fed it,
if you like, we've fed it all of the cyber's contents.
So things like research reports and things that we have
generated and I've generated and book material and everything
else. And it's very easy to create a
very powerful system. I guess there's a couple of
things I would add to this though.
It's very easy to get an answer for something or to create a
system that will give you an answer for something.
It's not so easy to have the right questions.
And this is where I think the value comes to play from being
a, an experienced practitioner where you know the questions to
answer, you know the questions that need to be asked.
And that's, that's a big, big difference.
It's very easy to go and do a search and say, right, give me a
identity assessment framework for IGA, whatever, you're going
to get some stuff splurted out there and great, you know what,
what can you do with this? But I think being able to again,
leverage judgement, leverage creativity, leverage the ability
to ask the right questions that really only comes with human
experience. Now.
I was quite like another another cliched quote around the guy who
who gets hired to fix the big engine on the big in the big
industrial plant and the engine's not working
effectively. It's making a horrible noise and
he gets brought in. He comes in, he looks at it and
he just whacks it with a hammer. It takes him 30 seconds, you
know, gets the hammer out of his bag, whacks the engine.
The engine starts working. He gives a bill to the to the
factory owner and says they go, there's a bill for 500 bucks and
the guy goes, well, that just took you 30 seconds and you all
you did was whack it with a hammer.
So yeah, yeah, absolutely. But I knew exactly where to hit
the machine with my hammer. And that, that's the sort of
stuff which potentially I can't do because it's bringing out
that judgement, the experience that, that creativity angle.
But I I think there's some huge, huge benefits.
Summarisations, being able to query things quickly, being able
to. Rapidly get to at least an area
where human can add a bit more judgement to the equation.
So I think it's, I think. The one thing, Simon, is that
it's hard to say where AI will be in 10 years.
I'd say, well, you know, looking at AI right now, you're right.
It lacks the creativity. It's almost like a calculator.
It can. A calculator can do arithmetic
far better than a human can, but the human has to decide what
goes into the calculator, what, how the calculations get applied
to something, etcetera. And I think AI sort of similar,
like we can never research the Internet or summarize these
large amounts of data in the way the AI can, But what we bring to
the table is the creative application of that data and
what we want to get out of that data.
Now, maybe where AI is 10 years from now, as you say, hey,
here's some examples of information.
Maybe you plug some raw data into it and you say, here's the
kind of output that I want. And boom, analysts, reporters,
birth from that. I, I actually could see a
process and I, I, I messaged this to Mike where potentially
you could have the AI tell you, hey, this is the kind of data or
tell me what kind of data I need to gather from a vendor to tell
me about their, you know, the example uses as ITGR for the,
your ITGR solution. Now you get that output.
Now you feed into AI all the output that I'm sorry, all the,
the vendor questionnaires responded to you give some
samples of here's the kind of papers that I'm looking to
create. Cross these two things, get what
you can find on the Internet and produce me an ITGR paper.
I bet you it could be pretty good that way.
So yeah. But I think there's huge, huge
opportunities, huge, huge value. And it's, I think you're right
in the sense of where will it be 10 years from now?
I think there's, there's probably a lot of ambiguity
there. And I think we're definitely
probably not going nothing spoiled under the the podcast
there. But there's definitely issues
around things like misinformation, disinformation,
data authenticity and where the the output is, is could be used
for. And I think we're definitely
moving towards a, a realm of assume fake, if that makes
sense. I think we in the enterprise, we
assume breach, you know that we talk about zero trust.
We assume the network's breach now probably got to assume that
everything online is fake. Everything's generated.
It's a deep fake. It's the content is synthesised
articles perhaps do not have factual information in them or
they are synthesised and blended.
So there's definitely my, my bigger word really is, is all
about that authenticity of the data origin really, and
providing data origin authentication against a piece
of content and making sure it's you know, the origin of it.
You can trust it and you can use that as part of, of something
else. And that that to me is, is not
really an area being actively solved at the minute.
I think that's that's the biggest, a bigger word for me
going forward, yeah. That's a good point.
So one of the, the, the main reasons we wanted to get you on
to the show, Simon, is you're producing this book.
Producing is the term I, I chose to use because it's not just
writing. I mean, this is a, a production
that you put forth. Tell us what is the book called
and what is it about? Yeah, this is my second book.
It's called IAM at 2035, so I am at 2035.
Basically, it's a future Guide to Identity security 1010 years
from now, which does seem a long, a long time to go in the
current evolution of things. Why?
I guess what? Why would I bother doing any of
the books? I, I did a book about four years
ago looking at BTC identity, So consumer customer identity and
access management. And as, as books go, you
typically never finish a book. And by this you write a book and
then you get asked to do a second edition and, and et
cetera, et cetera. And you've sort of leveraged
that book for, for consultancy and whatever else.
And it, it came to a point, the real inflection point, probably
about 2 1/2 years ago, I guess, when there were more non
identity people asking about BTC application owners, digital
owners, non-technical and product leads and others who are
wanting to know about BTC identity, which is quite, a,
quite an obvious thing because BTC covers a whole host of
different stakeholders. But it just got me thinking
around, OK, well, BTC is changing, but the whole identity
landscape is changing and there's a whole host of new
stakeholders wanting to understand what identity is,
where it's been for the past 25 years, what are the current
problems now and obviously where things may be heading to.
So I am at 2035. Essentially it's based on the
back of probably 2 years of of interviews and briefings as part
of the Cyberhub. Being interviewed, being briefed
I should say of all of the interesting start-ups doing a
whole host of different technology areas from password
less authorisation, ITDRISPMNHI, new authentication flaws,
orchestration, identity, data management, identity risk
management, the whole thing around AI and agentic AI in
there as well. So, so much going on, I felt
compelled to try and focus upon where we were, essentially where
we are today. All the problems we have today
around lack of coverage, NHI cloud versus hybrid,
decentralised versus centralised access controls is a bit of a
mess to be honest with all this stuff around identity as an
attack surface because of visibility concerns and
behavioural monitoring issues. So there's, there's a lot going
on with identity, but it's becoming more important.
So getting identity right can deliver huge benefits to B to E
workforce productivity and security.
It can deliver revenue and services online.
It can help with the disinformation thing we talked
about earlier, integrates with data and network and endpoint
security. So you, you get it, right.
You want a, a huge opportunity to deliver robust, secure
services. And I guess the, the, the sort
of second-half of the book is looking ahead, you know, where
things may end up in the next decade, looking at things like
intents, looking at attributions or I guess back to #3 in those
laws around being able to really tie identities to a biometric.
We're talking about people looking at behavioural
monitoring, intent of identity behaviours, looking the whole
world of, you know, how can we secure this identity ecosystem
if we are starting to see IAM and cyber merge together?
So it was really trying to say, look, this is where we are now.
A bit of the history there and a bit of the future view of, of,
of where things are going to. And it's, it's been a really
good, really good journey and enjoyable journey, if if not a,
a long one. Yeah.
My my favorite part, to be honest, was the history part.
And I think you could probably just write a book on the
history, but I could tell even there, there had to be some
things left on the cutting floor.
So when you look back on it, can you tell us what were the things
you said they have to be in here and what did you end up cutting
that you were especially things? What I'm really interested is
like it almost made it, but it didn't.
Oh wow, it's, it's funny. What do doing a book is, it's a
little bit like going on holiday with a very small suitcase and
you're desperately trying to scram your sewing trunks in your
jumpers, in your sunglasses, in your Lido and all you're trying
to squeeze it all into this tiny suitcase and you can't get
everything in. So you really have to be, you
have to be quite brutal with, with stuff.
And it's, it is difficult when you are trying to, trying to do
2 things. One, trying to get your
experience across. You can get AI to write a book
if you want to. I'm sure, I'm sure AI will do a
great job of that, but it's probably going to be pretty dry.
So part of part of both the books are written.
We're all trying to put your experience across.
You know what I've learnt my, my mistakes, the anecdotal
conversations that the water cooler chat, the linking
together of, of maybe some patterns I've heard or seen
really somehow trying to put my experience right and wrong in a
book which people can obviously hopefully then wrap into their
world as well. So I don't think that in itself
is congenerate content. I think the stuff that missed
out, I think you've always got to think of your audience, who
is the audience for this book? And it's it's really it isn't
just identity practitioners. First of all, it is a whole host
of of different personas I'd like to think gain benefit from
this non-technical as well as technical.
The security landscape, data application owners, seesaw sea
level people who are non-technical in obviously and
really should take them on that zero to hero journey.
And I think the stuff which you then pull out of there is often
some of that really fine grained detail, you know, explaining
what zero trust is for example. Well, you can go Google that to
be honest with you. Or the difference between O2 and
no IDC. So there's a lot of maybe fine
grained detail in there which you sort of assume can be found
elsewhere ultimately. So there's a lot of that stuff
gets sort of dropped and I try and raise up a little bit some
of those meta patterns and some of those bigger trends and then
so highlight my sort of experience in Yeah, so that so.
I think you covered well. Like who should read it now?
How should they read it? Should they read it like you eat
an elephant one bite at a time, or like you eat a 30 inch pizza
all in one sitting? Oh well.
I reckon you could do that. It's two pizzas, isn't it?
30 inch pizzas? That's probably 2 regular.
I think I could do that. I think anyway, definition of
two is well, yeah, it's a really interesting question.
So the the the book, essentially The thing is 16 chapters we
ended up with. And ultimately you talk, it's
based on the sort of standard, standard model of situation,
complications, implications, solution.
And obviously the first thing people look for is give me the
solution page, Give me what's the, what does 2035 look like?
Give me, give me the ideas, give me the, the buzzwords or the,
the vendors or the, the categories that will definitely
exist in 2035. So I reckon a lot of people will
aim for that. Now, in my opinion, you're
better off reading the whole book.
It's, it's you, you can get through it, I imagine pretty
rapidly. So I, I think it, it is a
journey read it is, it is looking at understanding the
past so you can better predict the future.
You, you can't, you can't understand the future unless
you've got a good understanding of history.
And I think that is vitally important.
So my, my, my recommendation will be to start at the
beginning with a coffee and slowly go through it.
You can probably do less than an hour per chapter.
I think 16 hours, probably condensed under 12 hours.
It's not a long, it's not a long period of time.
So my recommendation would be to read it through in a in a
journey in a journey and enjoy. It.
Enjoy it, enjoy it. Exactly is the book going.
To change people's mind about anything.
Are there preconceived notions that most of us identity
practitioners are walking around with?
And you read the book and you're like, I needed to question the
way I was thinking. I, I hope so.
I hope so. I think it'll, it'll definitely
change the mindset of, of non identity people.
I think it'll definitely put identity is a more strategic
enabler. I think, you know, 25 years ago,
identity was the purview of the CIO of operations.
It was focused on productivity and compliance.
It's, it's not that anymore. It's it's certainly a strategic
fulcrum within even the smallest enterprises.
You know, they can't, you can't be secure without identity.
You can't deliver online services without identity.
You cannot deliver employee productivity without, you can't
do anything really. You can't do this podcast
without identity. So there's a lot of things I
think which will probably surprise non identity
practitioners. I think for the for the, for the
people who've been in the identity space for a long time,
I think it will give a better set of analytical tools.
I think there's a lot of assumptions you can make if you
spend time a long time in any technology sector.
And I think it's really about unpicking some of those maybe
bad habits or, or, or complacencies we all get into
and trying to say, look, have a fresher and I guess more
contemporary analytical framework to look at how
identity should be measured, how it should be integrated or
problems it should be solving in trying to help analyse both the
vendors and also existing deployments.
Because nobody has the luxury of, of designing things from
scratch and picking out the best technologies.
You have to deal with existing systems, existing problems.
So I think the big take away will be at least provide people
with a set of analytical tools that they can look at their
existing systems, existing vendors, existing suppliers and
be a little bit more informed around what success looks like
for some of those things. Yeah, I mean.
The other thing I think is like you come with such a great
perspective. You kind of gave that history,
but also, like I said, you. I think your.
Creativity and kind of how you set yourself up for these, this
deep thinking and also your willingness to be bold and to
not just accept like, OK, this is what everybody's saying, but
I'm going to question it and I'm going to put out some big
statements and not everybody's going to agree with it.
That's going to get people thinking and potentially change
some minds. But I'm wondering now, what did
you learn through writing the book?
Did you start to question your own thinking?
100% yeah, I generally did yeah. I think, you know, I've been as
you guys have you do this stuff for a long time, you do get into
patterns of, of thinking, patterns of behaviour,
assumptions around certain things.
And it was I think it's really it's quite refreshing I think to
to to be briefed by technology start-ups who are early in their
journey. You feel like, you know, maybe
tackling ideal behavioural analytics or NHI or modern
approaches to authorisation or some quite esoteric parts of our
identity world and they bring a freshness to that.
And you have to be, you have to question that.
You have to question it, both business and technical is is to
their back story. But equally you've got to be
open minded. I think as well, I think there's
definitely opportunities for huge improvement across all
parts of our identity life cycles.
And to me, that's, that's what keeps me interested in this
because I think, you know, you could easily sit there and say,
well, you know, we still haven't solved the elder bar back
problem. And for honest support, we never
will. So accept that and move on and
start tackling some of the more pressing problems if you like.
But I think I, I always try and keep an open mind.
Don't accept, don't reject. Question the assumptions of
things. Question the assumptions of
vendors questioning assumptions of design and what, what, what
real problem is being solved. And I think that that is
definitely refreshed me over the last couple of years.
I think definitely kept me invigorated as to IAM being a a
really powerful dynamic industry that will definitely be around
10 years from now. I think there's there's no
question about so with this. Idea of like all this
proliferation of writing that you do.
I want to take us to a lighter note here as we kind of wrap up
the show and talk about if you were, you know, writing a
fictional story, Do you have any ideas on what a fictional book
might be from the mind of Simon Moffett?
Oh God, digging into my mind. Well, that's a fun.
Do you know, I, I, I do, I do, I do like writing.
I think writing is a very enjoyable pastime.
I think I, I don't, I don't actually read a lot of fiction.
I must say I, I typically read non fiction, essays,
biographies, history books, how how the world works, sort of
thing. And it's, I've actually a bit of
AI try and keep my local library running.
There's a big thing in the UK about libraries closing down.
So I, I try and go library relatively frequently.
And I'm, I'm probably four or five books at the minute into
whole history of, of looking at the natural world, if you like.
I'm reading an absolutely amazing book at the minute about
Eastern owls in Eastern Russia. A guy, a guy went over to
Eastern Russia about 20 years ago and he researched these fish
owls, massive big birds of prey, fish owls in eastern Russia on
the Japanese Sea of Japan. And he, he spent five years
going through, you know, the eastern coast of Russia,
tracking these fish owls, measuring them, checking their
habitat, all that sort of stuff. I love all that.
I carry on. It's, it's real life.
It's again back to the memoirs. And he's trying to transpose his
experience into into US non fish owl experts.
So I'm I'm into that sort of thing and non fiction me.
I think if I had to write something non professional, I
would probably go down the sort of essayist routes or writing of
essays around, you know, how we live our life, how how to take a
walk in the countryside, how to make a cup of tea and how to
drink a pint of beer. These sorts of things, which you
can, you can extend over 5 or 6 pages of link and really uncover
the real world. I think that'll probably be my
that could be a nice hobby, I think describing, describing the
mess we're all leaving this planet in, that sort of stuff.
What would be the setting for this?
Would it be something that is like realistic, a place that
you've visited? Is it something maybe a little
more fantastical or fantasy? Like give me the idea of like,
OK, I am, I'm reading about this character who is learning how
to, you know, sounds like, you know, relax in life a little
bit, take a step back and maybe have a cup of tea or some other
beverage it. Will be contemporary, so it'll
be it'll be right now it'll be 2025.
I did saying I wouldn't do a non fiction, but I did I did.
I did start an idea for something and it was it was
based on the back of reading 1984 by George Orwell Disatopian
novel where everything's everything's terrible.
And my book was going to be called 2361 right.
And the, the the the reason for this 23 the hour 202361 meant 61
minutes past midnight, which you can never get to, of course.
Now the the reason being long Long story short.
It was all focused on the Doomsday Clock.
If, if you've, if you've heard of the Doomsday Clock, which is
I think it's at 89 seconds to midnight at the minute, which is
the destruction of the planet, the nuclear annihilation of
everything. It's it's clicked forward to 89
seconds to midnight. And my, my idea was to say what
happens at one minute past midnight when the whole world is
in a dystopian mess. But yeah, I, I didn't think it
would be happy ending sort of books.
I thought I'd I might park that, park that for the time being and
focus on 2025 and how we can all live a slightly better life.
Not to be confused with the Iron Maiden song 2 Minutes to
Midnight, which is I guess roughly kind of the same idea.
Jim, if you were to. Write a fictional book.
What would you write about? Or I got this?
Idea. So I've switched companies a
couple of times and when you switch companies you have the
ability to take your retirement, roll it out of your 4O1K in the
US was like the employ the employment retirement package to
an IRA, which is kind of like an independent retirement package.
And during that time, it's kind of like you have to transfer all
your money into cash, freeze it, and then it goes into your IRA
and you select the investments that you want to go into.
I'm not sure exactly how that process, but I've done it a few
times. It's been a while.
Anyway, so my, the backdrop of my story would be I, you know,
the, the character in the book is switching jobs and decides,
OK, he's going to roll his money over.
It gets frozen in cash and then the market tanks.
I mean, it drops like 85% and then it's out of his control.
It's frozen in cash. Then it gets put into the
market. When it's down 85%, it bounces
back up even higher than it was. And so now the guy's like an
instant multi millionaire with dumb luck, right?
So now he's got all this money and then he goes to the doctor
and the doctor says you have only two days to live.
And so now he has all these millions of dollars and he has
to spend it or he has to decide what to do with it in two days.
He hadn't like given us any thought because, you know, he
basically by dumb luck became a a multi millionaire and now he
finds out he only has two days or some amount or some short
amount of time to live. He's got to figure out what to
do in that time. And then I think as like the
kicker, you get to the end of the two days or whatever it is,
and then you find out that he was still alive.
And you go back to the doctor and they'd be like, yeah, we've
been trying to call you, but it was going to voicemail.
We we gave you the wrong person's information.
You're actually going to live. There's nothing wrong with you.
You've given. This a lot of thought.
More, more. No, thought I, I.
Thought about it. All within the last hour.
It. Has like elements of like
Brewster's Millions, Joe versus the volcano.
There's there's tragedy. There there.
Isn't there? Right.
Yeah, there's. Identity plate, Yeah, like we
tried to get a hold of you and you know the wrong information
scopes. Of two token yeah I.
I just thought of it like I thought of different parts
throughout the show, but I was listening to you, Simon.
But I, I, I've been thinking about this like this investment
thing because the markets have been crazy lately.
But I also thought about that whole thing about how the IT
would have been. It's just too obvious to say I
bought a lottery ticket and won $10 million.
And maybe if I needed to keep that front part of the book
short, I would do that. But I think that whole scenario
that I just talked about could be a kind of a backdrop that it
also ruined a bunch of people. And now there's all these
desperate people living in the world.
Because one of the the offshoots of the story could be that
there's all these desperate people and they kidnap somebody
from your family who you had a falling out with and basically
you are estranged from. And they were asking for all of
your money as so state was one of your parents and you're
estranged from your parent. And now they're saying they want
all the money to release the hostage.
Hopefully it's not like. Stalin and his son, where they
kidnapped his son and then he's like, man, keep him.
Yeah, right. Right.
Well, you know, you'll have to read my book.
Yeah, well. Get get on it.
You know, maybe you make an AI Co writer or something to get
this out there. Get inside of your head.
Yeah, right. Good.
Idea I I I can't. Top that because you have so
much detail in this vivid imagination years.
I was I was waiting for the downer part of it.
And you, you, you got to it with the the death diagnosis and with
the kidnapping and the desperate people all around the world.
So it had a little bit of everything, you know, for you,
yeah. Hey, if I'm going to be the
author, you know, there's got to be some, some downside to the
whole thing, all right? Well, I, I'll just say probably
for me, something sci-fi, just because I'm a sci-fi nerd and I
am not super creative. So I, I don't know even what it
would be about, But it'll be something far, far in the future
where, you know, maybe I can somehow extend my brain to be
able to experience all the things I'm going to miss after
my mortal life is dead is has ended.
So maybe it's like an AI version of Jeff or, you know, I always
talk about the the the Baba verse set of books, which I
think is really good. So maybe something along those
lines of like some sort of AI immortality and what does that
actually mean? And you know, maybe it's
something on those. Lines.
So I don't know, we could. OK, let's go ahead and wrap.
It up there for this week. Simon, thank you so much for
taking time with us. Really you step appreciate you
stepping in with us. I'll have links in our show
notes for everything we talked about today.
So link to the cyber huts as well as the podcasts as well as
you are present on LinkedIn, Simon.
So hopefully that's all cool with you and perfect.
Thanks guys. Yeah, it's been.
Great. Let's not wait another 347
episodes to do this again. Let's let's let's talk more and
I'm sure we'll see each other at conferences coming up in the
future. So with that, we'll go ahead and
leave it for this week. Thank you everybody for watching
and or listening. Thank you, Jim, for not really
ticking off our listeners at the very beginning.
Like and subscribe. That's all we're asking for.
Share it with a friend, share it with an enemy.
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And we'll talk with everybody in the next one.
Cheers, guys. Thank you.
You've been. Listening to Identity at the
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