1 00:00:09,700 --> 00:00:13,000 You're listening to the identity of the center podcast, this is 2 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:15,600 the show that talks about identity and access management 3 00:00:15,700 --> 00:00:18,600 and making sure you know who has access to what let's get 4 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:25,500 started. Welcome to the identity of the 5 00:00:25,500 --> 00:00:27,300 sender podcast, I'm Jeff and that's Jim. 6 00:00:27,300 --> 00:00:28,900 Hm. Hey Jeff how are you? 7 00:00:28,900 --> 00:00:31,700 Not too bad yourself? Don't fantastic here at the 8 00:00:31,700 --> 00:00:35,500 authenticate conference 2022 in Seattle. 9 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:39,600 I give the conference in a has been a really good conference 10 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:41,900 and a fourth etiquette. Yes. 11 00:00:41,900 --> 00:00:46,800 And it and next year, I think it could a plus with it moving to 12 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:49,300 San Diego. Which by the way that news was 13 00:00:49,300 --> 00:00:51,400 broken on it, did it start a podcast? 14 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:54,000 It was thank you very much and you're shaky are for joining us. 15 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:57,400 Week is sort of like a preview that we rolled out this Monday, 16 00:00:57,400 --> 00:00:59,600 the first day of the conference and he was kind enough to give 17 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:05,600 idac listeners sneak preview of where authenticate will be next 18 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:07,800 year. So hopefully we'll see people in 19 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:11,300 Carlsbad California, which is just North of San Diego. 20 00:01:11,300 --> 00:01:14,500 So, it's definitely a destination spot for people who 21 00:01:14,508 --> 00:01:17,500 like to plan, you know, vacations around conferences. 22 00:01:17,500 --> 00:01:20,800 Or if they have family things that they can send the family do 23 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:23,100 fun things while they sit. You don't talk identity with a 24 00:01:23,107 --> 00:01:27,100 bunch of Denny nerds like And I, yeah, well that's that's true. 25 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:30,700 And you know, I met so many people here at the conference 26 00:01:30,700 --> 00:01:33,800 from all over the world. All different stages of their 27 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:36,300 career doing all different things, but guess what? 28 00:01:36,300 --> 00:01:41,300 I did not meet a single person who likes the password, not one 29 00:01:41,300 --> 00:01:44,500 at a password list. Basically thing that's that's we 30 00:01:44,500 --> 00:01:45,300 go. Imagine. 31 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:50,100 Well, why do we kind of pivot into our conversations tape up 32 00:01:50,100 --> 00:01:51,800 before I get too far along? I do want to again. 33 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:54,000 Thank and Russia are in the Fido team. 34 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:58,100 For hosting us this week and giving us a spot to record and 35 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:00,300 just the support that they've given us a true friends of the 36 00:02:00,300 --> 00:02:02,000 show. So we hopefully are paid it back 37 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,300 there with some exposure on the podcast. 38 00:02:04,300 --> 00:02:08,199 And also thanks to our SM for sponsoring our trip out here. 39 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:12,100 They are our day job, and the podcast is our night and weekend 40 00:02:12,100 --> 00:02:13,700 job. So they've been very supportive 41 00:02:13,700 --> 00:02:16,100 of that. So thanks to both Andrew and our 42 00:02:16,100 --> 00:02:19,200 SM and let's go ahead and introduce Our Guest. 43 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:22,300 His name is Kevin Goldman, he's a chief design officer, a true 44 00:02:22,300 --> 00:02:25,300 Sona and chair of the user. Experience committee and a board 45 00:02:25,300 --> 00:02:28,400 member for the fight Alliance. Welcome, Kevin thanks for having 46 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:28,900 me. Yeah. 47 00:02:28,900 --> 00:02:30,800 Glad to be here, that sounds like a real mouthful. 48 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:33,700 So we want to get into that a little bit here, so I second 49 00:02:33,700 --> 00:02:34,600 that. Yeah. 50 00:02:35,500 --> 00:02:37,500 So before we get too far along its first time you were on the 51 00:02:37,500 --> 00:02:39,700 show. We like to find out more about 52 00:02:39,700 --> 00:02:41,200 the identity origin story for people. 53 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:44,700 How did you get into the identity space itself? 54 00:02:44,700 --> 00:02:47,100 Is it something that you chose or did it choose you or maybe 55 00:02:47,100 --> 00:02:48,800 something else? Yeah, a little bit of both. 56 00:02:48,900 --> 00:02:51,100 You know, most of my career was spent in Consulting as user 57 00:02:51,100 --> 00:02:56,900 experience Consulting and I met the founder of the company that 58 00:02:56,900 --> 00:03:02,600 I'm at now and was just intrigued and eight months 59 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:04,200 later. I joined the company. 60 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:05,600 So that was about seven years ago. 61 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:10,200 So I've been in the authentication cyber identity 62 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:13,700 space for about seven years. And you know, the funny thing is 63 00:03:13,700 --> 00:03:17,700 I I really feel at this point. I'm going to be in this industry 64 00:03:17,700 --> 00:03:20,900 for the rest of my career. There's just so room so much 65 00:03:20,900 --> 00:03:24,000 room for design to make impact in. 66 00:03:24,100 --> 00:03:29,200 This space another way to say it is there's just a really low bar 67 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:33,600 design and say we have something like crappy design, you know, I 68 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:35,900 am space that he worked on which I would agree with. 69 00:03:36,100 --> 00:03:40,700 Yeah, lots of room for impact. So I was also thinking there's 70 00:03:40,700 --> 00:03:44,400 also a difference between user experience and user interface, 71 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:47,000 right? I mean it's the the user 72 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:50,700 interface is kind of the thing that we can all think of but 73 00:03:50,700 --> 00:03:52,700 it's everything that goes into it, right? 74 00:03:52,700 --> 00:03:54,000 That's it. Yeah expert. 75 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:56,500 You have in your you bring to the table? 76 00:03:56,500 --> 00:03:57,800 Yeah, thanks for pointing that out. 77 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:02,400 You know, it can be an alphabet soup of, you know, ux/ui HCI all 78 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:04,200 these different, human-computer interaction? 79 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:08,300 All these different things that the design space calls it. 80 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:10,500 But you made a important distinction. 81 00:04:10,500 --> 00:04:14,800 Yes, there is the digital stuff you interact with on screen 82 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:18,399 which is the user interface. But the user the user experience 83 00:04:18,399 --> 00:04:21,600 is more broad. It's it takes into account all 84 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:24,300 the different contexts that somebody might be in and the 85 00:04:24,300 --> 00:04:26,400 full Journey that they might go through. 86 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:29,300 So let's it might be some of it might be in the digital space. 87 00:04:29,300 --> 00:04:32,500 Some of it might be in the physical space and it 88 00:04:32,500 --> 00:04:35,500 incorporates all of that. So yeah, you hit the nail on the 89 00:04:35,500 --> 00:04:40,000 head, it's both. So I know that true Sona has 90 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:42,900 been here for years really, part of the alliance. 91 00:04:42,900 --> 00:04:46,600 And I remember hearing I think was already speak last year, for 92 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:48,400 those who aren't familiar Tristana, which is where you're 93 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:50,600 at right now. Tell us a little bit about that. 94 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:52,600 Give us a like, a 30 second elevator pitch. 95 00:04:52,700 --> 00:04:55,700 Yeah. Keep it very, very simple. 96 00:04:55,700 --> 00:04:59,900 So to Sona is in this space of identity and access management. 97 00:04:59,900 --> 00:05:04,800 We provide a password list solution that allows people 98 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:11,400 brands that to deploy passkeys and and Fido based credential 99 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:13,900 authentication for their consumers. 100 00:05:14,300 --> 00:05:17,900 In a very, very simple way so that they're don't require a lot 101 00:05:17,900 --> 00:05:22,300 of Technical know-how and they don't they get all this stuff 102 00:05:22,300 --> 00:05:23,900 that I bring with user experience. 103 00:05:24,100 --> 00:05:28,200 It's and they get all the goodness of the security that 104 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:32,600 Fido has allowed and put that together into a SAS base Cloud 105 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:34,800 solution. Interesting. 106 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:38,300 So, I got to ask, how did, how did, how did you get engaged 107 00:05:38,300 --> 00:05:41,000 with Fido? And, you know, become part of 108 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:44,100 this user experience committees. It something that you got you 109 00:05:44,100 --> 00:05:46,900 sought out on your own. Did they come to you just tell 110 00:05:46,900 --> 00:05:49,000 me about the origin there? Yeah, you know, there's actually 111 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:54,000 it's been many, many years. So we've Fido has been our true. 112 00:05:54,100 --> 00:05:59,400 Owner has been a member of Phi, do want to save four five six 113 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:03,300 years. But in the early days, we 114 00:06:03,300 --> 00:06:06,600 weren't we weren't really involved. 115 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:09,600 Very closely. It was started about three years 116 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:12,100 ago. We said, hey, we want to get 117 00:06:12,100 --> 00:06:16,200 involved more, you know, we did look at some of the usability 118 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:20,700 issues of Fido and we went to one of the plenaries and were 119 00:06:20,700 --> 00:06:25,600 welcomed in and and really well Embrace it to be heard of what 120 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:28,800 our, what our thoughts were you fast forward a little bit and it 121 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:31,100 would really was you mentioned, and Russia, are is really and 122 00:06:31,100 --> 00:06:35,600 Russia care that took time and reconnected with, with me and 123 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:37,600 said, hey, you know what are these, some of these usability 124 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:41,300 issues you're seeing, we started talking about about what they 125 00:06:41,300 --> 00:06:46,200 are and we sort of both thought. Hey, it could be great for Fido 126 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:49,700 to sponsor. Some user experience research, 127 00:06:50,700 --> 00:06:54,000 and the output of that research could help relying. 128 00:06:54,100 --> 00:06:58,700 In parties Brands ensure that there are phyto, deployment is 129 00:06:58,700 --> 00:07:02,500 usable. So, that's really when I started 130 00:07:02,500 --> 00:07:05,700 to become quite involved, and this was just nights and 131 00:07:05,700 --> 00:07:09,100 weekends work, you know, we were thinking about what's the scope 132 00:07:09,100 --> 00:07:12,700 of This ux research? Who do we get involved? 133 00:07:12,900 --> 00:07:15,500 Andrew formalize that into a ux task force. 134 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:19,100 That was about, I don't know, is two or two and a half years ago 135 00:07:19,100 --> 00:07:23,600 or so through that ux, task force Fido published its first 136 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:26,700 user experience guidelines and they were for platform 137 00:07:26,700 --> 00:07:29,300 authenticators for regulated Industries. 138 00:07:30,100 --> 00:07:34,900 If you're an RP, a brand that matches that Persona, then you 139 00:07:34,900 --> 00:07:38,400 can use these guidelines to kind of Ensure good usability for 140 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:42,300 your end users. And, you know, it's the first 141 00:07:42,300 --> 00:07:45,400 time that fight has done something like this and a lot of 142 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:51,600 magical things happen one, we got participation from a lot of 143 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:57,200 different vital companies designers within companies that 144 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:00,700 are on the final board or other parts of Fido and it was a 145 00:08:00,707 --> 00:08:04,200 really diverse group global. So designers from around the 146 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:08,700 world that were giving their expertise to help create this 147 00:08:08,700 --> 00:08:10,300 used to this research for the first time. 148 00:08:11,500 --> 00:08:14,900 Another interesting thing happened which was, you know, 149 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:19,000 people read the guidelines and found something helpful in them, 150 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:21,400 you know. So you don't know the first time 151 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:25,400 out of the gate, a new if it's really going to resonate. 152 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:30,000 But we found that RPS like, hey, we really like this. 153 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:34,700 We want more, we want more ux. We want me to produce more ux 154 00:08:34,700 --> 00:08:39,600 guidelines, so we did it again. We did a second round of ux 155 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:43,400 research this time. Focus on Hardware security Keys 156 00:08:43,500 --> 00:08:49,800 again for regulated Industries. And by the way, the research 157 00:08:50,500 --> 00:08:53,800 it's called research, the ux research, the listeners may or 158 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:58,100 may not have ever participated in a ux research project. 159 00:08:59,100 --> 00:09:01,900 The outcome is what's important not necessarily that it was just 160 00:09:01,900 --> 00:09:05,800 research, the outcome is are just best practices that are 161 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:08,400 easy to use. So that's really the outcome. 162 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:12,300 If you don't have ux designers on your team, you're a project 163 00:09:12,300 --> 00:09:15,500 manager, you're an engineer, you're an IT admin. 164 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:19,500 Are looking for ux guidance, you might not have those people on 165 00:09:19,500 --> 00:09:22,600 your team, you can go to these guidelines and get some good 166 00:09:23,500 --> 00:09:27,300 advice. We published that second set of 167 00:09:27,300 --> 00:09:31,800 ux guidelines at identifiers just a few months ago and a 168 00:09:31,808 --> 00:09:35,800 couple of other things happened. Late last year, I became a board 169 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:42,700 member of Fido Alliance and then really work with the board to 170 00:09:42,700 --> 00:09:46,200 figure out how do we do more around. 171 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:51,000 Ux at Fido and we looked at a lot of different ways to fit in 172 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:55,000 with the governance structure of Fido, ultimately, we created a 173 00:09:55,000 --> 00:10:01,000 ux committee, so that committee now has the numbers grew 174 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:04,700 significantly this week. We added maybe six or seven 175 00:10:04,700 --> 00:10:09,200 people, but I think it's about 28 people now that are part of 176 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:13,900 the ux committee. That are providing their 177 00:10:13,900 --> 00:10:18,100 expertise to create more and more of this content that people 178 00:10:18,100 --> 00:10:23,400 are saying they find helpful. And that committee has been 179 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:28,200 established about six months, we had some big goals for this 180 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:34,200 year, three big goals and one of those was launched just a few 181 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:39,200 days ago here at authenticate, we created a Fido Alliance 182 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:43,800 design system. So, if you're again, if you're 183 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:46,900 not a designer, if you're not a product manager, you might not 184 00:10:46,900 --> 00:10:50,000 know what a design system is, but there really are the 185 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:54,500 essential building blocks of the user experience design. 186 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:59,500 Most companies have designed systems already Problem is 187 00:10:59,500 --> 00:11:03,600 there's a big gap, they don't have design system components 188 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:06,300 for authentication, for password, less authentication, 189 00:11:06,300 --> 00:11:09,600 and Fido authentication. They have design component 190 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:12,900 design system, components for username password, but not for 191 00:11:12,900 --> 00:11:15,100 the password list, so stop right there. 192 00:11:15,100 --> 00:11:17,300 So you see user design components. 193 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:22,400 What is that? So component could be as simple 194 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:29,900 as a button or an input field or a Piece of Copy Text. 195 00:11:29,900 --> 00:11:32,200 That's a sentence long. That describes. 196 00:11:32,700 --> 00:11:35,900 What an experience might be this new password, this experience, 197 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:42,000 but a component could also be the holding my hands out. 198 00:11:42,700 --> 00:11:47,400 Those listening could be the end-to-end Journey of an 199 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:50,000 authentication identity authentication experience. 200 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:52,500 So, you're talking about like when you're like, mocking this 201 00:11:52,500 --> 00:11:57,200 up with your mocking up the screens and what that flow 202 00:11:57,200 --> 00:11:59,000 looks. Is it that? 203 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:03,200 They're sure companies, their tool does even has been created. 204 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:06,400 It doesn't even understand a world where Fido exists. 205 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:09,300 It's just yes, username password and a submit button. 206 00:12:09,300 --> 00:12:13,100 Yes as yeah. Funny the person who is on day 207 00:12:13,100 --> 00:12:16,700 one keynote from Google. Starting about Eric Schmidt 208 00:12:16,700 --> 00:12:19,200 introduced. This idea that we're going to 209 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:23,500 have a page with just the username and then put the passer 210 00:12:23,500 --> 00:12:26,800 on the second page of people freaked out I was thinking of 211 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:28,200 the exact same. Same thing. 212 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,300 It's like you just broke the system, right? 213 00:12:31,300 --> 00:12:33,400 Yeah, for what people are used to. 214 00:12:33,700 --> 00:12:35,500 Yeah, actually, one dash is quite. 215 00:12:35,500 --> 00:12:43,200 I hope it's a good question, but it's around, you know, the the 216 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:47,100 idea around user experience. So when I think of Fido and 217 00:12:47,100 --> 00:12:50,800 phyto to traditionally, like the first thing that came to my mind 218 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:54,600 was security break getting away from the password and a password 219 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:57,700 sucks, but the pastor sucks because it's so insecure. 220 00:12:58,300 --> 00:13:01,600 But there's also, of course, the user experience components of 221 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:06,800 that witch and, you know, in some ways drives, the secure, 222 00:13:07,300 --> 00:13:08,900 the lack of security around the pasture. 223 00:13:08,900 --> 00:13:10,400 Right? Is that the user experience is 224 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:13,800 so hard that people take short cuts, etc, etc. 225 00:13:15,300 --> 00:13:18,700 But still so, so that take that in context because they think 226 00:13:18,700 --> 00:13:24,300 user experiences like a major Focus this week but I don't know 227 00:13:24,300 --> 00:13:28,000 that it's always been a strong as of a focus as it is now. 228 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:34,800 And then I had this other realization or sense that when 229 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:39,200 you're sitting in these conferences like we're right in 230 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:42,700 the middle like Fighters. Come now 10 years. 231 00:13:42,700 --> 00:13:47,000 Fighting Alliance has been around for 10 years. and, you 232 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:50,100 know, we're probably like, halfway through the Journey, you 233 00:13:50,100 --> 00:13:52,200 know. It's like the the password is 234 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:57,100 still ubiquitous, but you feel like it's almost at the 235 00:13:57,100 --> 00:13:59,500 inflection point when you start hearing about these major 236 00:13:59,500 --> 00:14:03,100 rollouts. And it's got a ways to go. 237 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:07,100 So, so that was my realization. So now, here's my question is, 238 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:10,200 where are we at in terms of the user experience? 239 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:14,700 Are we also halfway in terms of taking this concept that the 240 00:14:14,700 --> 00:14:18,700 user experience is just as Important as security or we 241 00:14:18,700 --> 00:14:22,500 halfway or we just in the kind of the early infancy of that and 242 00:14:22,900 --> 00:14:26,600 you know it's got its still yet to reach its inflection point. 243 00:14:26,700 --> 00:14:30,300 And I'm also doing a budget arm movements that nobody seeing 244 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:35,300 hard to quantify if we let you know 50% or but. 245 00:14:35,500 --> 00:14:39,300 But it's similar to that, you know, in some ways designs never 246 00:14:39,300 --> 00:14:40,400 done. So it's always going to be 247 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:45,500 iterated upon and and improved, but there is a growing 248 00:14:45,500 --> 00:14:49,400 awareness. In the ux and design Community 249 00:14:49,500 --> 00:14:55,000 around the importance of security and privacy and that 250 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:59,900 there are other authentication modalities available. 251 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:03,600 I think that's just a big step to just that there is an 252 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:07,500 alternative for the people that are designing these systems. 253 00:15:09,300 --> 00:15:12,600 What you what you mentioned earlier in in as you were 254 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:15,900 describing the question, you're mentioning, the relationship 255 00:15:15,900 --> 00:15:19,700 between Usability and security and they actually affect each 256 00:15:19,700 --> 00:15:23,100 other. So this is a very, very well 257 00:15:23,100 --> 00:15:26,700 known very well respected person in the ux community. 258 00:15:26,700 --> 00:15:32,300 His name is Jared spool and he corn sort of he, what he says 259 00:15:32,300 --> 00:15:34,900 is. If it's not usable, it's not 260 00:15:34,900 --> 00:15:37,800 secure. And he does what he does a very 261 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:40,500 long talk on this 60. 90 minutes are. 262 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:47,100 In fact, your son hired him one year to talk at our Summit but 263 00:15:47,100 --> 00:15:51,600 it's it goes like this. If you have a security 264 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:58,000 experience that's hard to use. Regular people will find ways to 265 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:03,200 work around that security. They just will in ways that you 266 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:05,800 would not imagine. So when you work around the 267 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:08,100 security just makes the system less secure. 268 00:16:08,300 --> 00:16:12,000 So there's a there's a symbiotic relationship between usability 269 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:16,600 and security and I think that's becoming more well understood 270 00:16:18,300 --> 00:16:22,600 that when we talk about usability it's not just oh make 271 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:25,800 it simple for the e-commerce check out you know make it For 272 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:31,200 the lowest recurrence use cases. It's also for the most secure 273 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:35,600 use cases. You also need security, because 274 00:16:35,700 --> 00:16:38,400 I knew you'd need usability because otherwise people are 275 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,200 going to work around it. The way that I've always heard, 276 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:43,300 it described to me, that always paid sense. 277 00:16:43,300 --> 00:16:47,400 Of my feeble brain is, you've got a river, which is a security 278 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:49,800 or it is the people die. Haven't heard this one. 279 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:53,000 So yeah, drop a rock in the middle of it and if it's bad 280 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:55,000 security, the river just flows around it. 281 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:59,700 So you need to design it in a way that people can't flow 282 00:16:59,700 --> 00:17:02,800 around that rock, whatever that gate is right. 283 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:05,700 Whatever that checkpoint is that you want to pass people through, 284 00:17:05,900 --> 00:17:09,200 and it was thought that, that was made sense to me, but it's 285 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:12,099 clear and style in the desert is how I've heard at how to her to 286 00:17:12,099 --> 00:17:13,200 call. That's another go ahead. 287 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:13,700 Yeah. Exactly. 288 00:17:13,700 --> 00:17:15,400 Or like, you know, you see the images where it's like, you 289 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:18,400 know, the gate is here and yes. So it's just like a pet walk 290 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:19,700 around. Get you just walk around the 291 00:17:19,700 --> 00:17:20,500 cake. Yeah. 292 00:17:20,700 --> 00:17:25,599 And and that usability is a direct impact. 293 00:17:25,700 --> 00:17:28,099 Until how secure system has because people will find a way 294 00:17:28,099 --> 00:17:29,900 around it. I am guilty of that myself. 295 00:17:29,900 --> 00:17:32,300 I don't look for ways to make my life easier. 296 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:35,400 If that means that I'm circumventing security, my 297 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:38,400 non-security Personnel, Ona will go ahead and do it. 298 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:41,500 Yeah. I'm taking a risk in doing that 299 00:17:41,500 --> 00:17:44,100 and I feel like you know maybe that's a good rest maybe it's 300 00:17:44,100 --> 00:17:46,500 not a good risk, not saying that I'm doing that in a particular 301 00:17:46,500 --> 00:17:49,500 circumstance but people will find a way to make their life 302 00:17:49,500 --> 00:17:52,900 easier and insecurity. Puts these owners burdens on top 303 00:17:52,900 --> 00:17:56,200 of people they will find a way around it or they A just won't 304 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:59,400 use it. I'll give you a real pragmatic. 305 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:02,700 Example of the idioms are awesome, the river and The Rock 306 00:18:02,700 --> 00:18:06,800 and the turnstile. So in the context of the hotel 307 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:13,000 are not a hotel but a hospital HIPPA laws privacy. 308 00:18:13,300 --> 00:18:20,400 Lot of secure data, there's a system where it will log you out 309 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:25,000 of the system if they don't see mouth movements activity on that 310 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:27,700 machine. Within 90 seconds. 311 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:33,700 So well got documented case, where the staff. 312 00:18:33,700 --> 00:18:40,300 You know from 9 p.m. until 5 a.m. had somebody whose job it 313 00:18:40,300 --> 00:18:43,900 was to wake up, not wake up but not let that computer fall 314 00:18:43,900 --> 00:18:47,300 asleep and even if they weren't using it would constantly keep 315 00:18:47,300 --> 00:18:50,300 that machine open because it was so difficult. 316 00:18:50,500 --> 00:18:53,200 It's a log into that machine with the multi-factor 317 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:56,300 authentication that they use. They would rather have Somebody 318 00:18:56,300 --> 00:18:59,800 dedicated to walk over to it and make sure that they tap them 319 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:03,500 out, push the mouth. Oh, every minute, you know, or 320 00:19:03,500 --> 00:19:06,100 every couple minutes to make sure that it didn't fall asleep. 321 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:08,200 Now did that make the system less secure? 322 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:13,800 Probably, because anybody walking by that computer can be 323 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:17,600 that admin on that computer. It's clear, they didn't watch 324 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:20,400 The Simpsons and see the opening intro, where they have the, you 325 00:19:20,408 --> 00:19:22,800 know, the they call a little water thing with like the you 326 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:25,500 know, the beak that presses the keys for Homer when he's doing 327 00:19:25,500 --> 00:19:27,600 the auto to been good. The automation right could have. 328 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:33,400 Yeah, yeah. So what I've also had some 329 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:36,100 conversation some hallway conversations this week and I 330 00:19:36,100 --> 00:19:42,100 found myself talking about, you know, my dad because I think we 331 00:19:42,100 --> 00:19:45,000 as security people. Like I yeah, you just popped 332 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:50,600 open and And boom, you're on your way and I think about my 333 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:53,100 dad or people like him, who is it? 334 00:19:53,100 --> 00:19:56,200 Probably just getting caught up to how getting a one-time 335 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:59,900 password over SMS works and they're like, you know, it's 336 00:19:59,900 --> 00:20:03,800 ubiquitous now I know that's where we have to get, but I also 337 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:07,000 thought to myself about how differently some of the 338 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,200 authenticators work from user experience perspective. 339 00:20:10,300 --> 00:20:16,300 So for example, you know, the Microsoft authenticator made Do 340 00:20:16,300 --> 00:20:18,100 something worse. Has I'm going to pop up a 341 00:20:18,108 --> 00:20:21,000 number, then you're going to get an authenticator message to your 342 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:24,100 phone and just say what number you, see, for you. 343 00:20:24,100 --> 00:20:27,600 Pick a number from a from a list, the Google Authenticator 344 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:33,300 doesn't work that way. So what I got to wondering was, 345 00:20:34,700 --> 00:20:39,000 is part of what you're driving with this ux committee, and 346 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:41,200 maybe we can talk about the ux committee a little bit and what 347 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:45,400 your goals are, is it try to get some ubiquity there because I 348 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:49,600 feel like you Korea's is what's going to make or break the 349 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:53,100 success of more advanced authentication. 350 00:20:53,100 --> 00:20:57,200 It's like when people kind of get it and do it and it's simple 351 00:20:57,300 --> 00:21:01,000 and they understand it used to do it all the time, but I can 352 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,600 never see my dad downloading. The Google Authenticator and 353 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:08,500 scanning a QR code. It's just like he probably does 354 00:21:08,500 --> 00:21:10,600 the stuff on the computer when he has to do it. 355 00:21:10,700 --> 00:21:13,000 Mmm. Yeah, I think you hit the nail 356 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:17,200 on the head and Mitch galavan was He's talking about this very 357 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:20,900 eloquently just a half hour ago on the main stage and he's one 358 00:21:20,900 --> 00:21:26,500 of the lead ux designer at Google and he was talking about 359 00:21:26,500 --> 00:21:32,000 how the move of authentication to the device to their mobile 360 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:35,800 phones is an important inflection point for 361 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:38,400 authentication. And it really is, I'm trying to 362 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:40,900 paraphrase a little bit of what Mitch was saying, just a few 363 00:21:40,900 --> 00:21:44,300 minutes ago. You know, when, when you have 364 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:50,100 billions of people that are used to unlocking their phone every 365 00:21:50,100 --> 00:21:54,000 day, a hundred times a day, that's a behavior. 366 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:58,000 That becomes comfortable and well-known and well-understood. 367 00:21:58,700 --> 00:22:02,100 So, your dad and you in the example that you gave can likely 368 00:22:02,100 --> 00:22:05,900 unlock his phone and he has no problem with that. 369 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:11,400 And he understands it's a security step understands how to 370 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:15,100 perform I'm that task and gets through that task pretty 371 00:22:15,100 --> 00:22:19,800 frictionlessly by moving our authentication with passkey with 372 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:26,400 Fido of moving, that user interaction to be the same way 373 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:28,800 that you unlock your phone that you can now unlock. 374 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:31,000 A website is very, very powerful. 375 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:36,600 So it's not as if there are some new behaviors that were seeking 376 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:42,000 to to make with Fido, but we're really piggybacking on a It 377 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,300 already exists and that's the key. 378 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:50,300 It's well known well understood. It's it's it just works and even 379 00:22:50,300 --> 00:22:53,000 with passkey I don't know how much how deep we want to get 380 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:58,100 into it is that there's other there's other parts of the UI 381 00:22:58,100 --> 00:23:02,100 with passkey that do the same thing they piggyback on an 382 00:23:02,100 --> 00:23:04,900 existing you x pattern that's tried and true. 383 00:23:06,100 --> 00:23:10,600 I think that's one of the things that I like to give the Apple 384 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:15,700 credit where credit is due is they have popularized and made 385 00:23:15,700 --> 00:23:18,200 it very simple to take advantage of Biometrics. 386 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,700 Absolutely touch Matrix been around for a lot longer than 387 00:23:20,700 --> 00:23:24,200 Apple was doing exactly, but they are the ones that that made 388 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:25,900 it ubiquitous. And the way that I think about 389 00:23:25,900 --> 00:23:30,400 it too is, you were subtly trained to use these things. 390 00:23:31,100 --> 00:23:33,200 Sure it was like, oh, here's how you log in, right? 391 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:36,000 You've got the prompts on your phone itself and kind of Shows 392 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,400 you how to do it but you also see in the commercials oh look 393 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:42,900 how easy it is and you see the face ID and the fun logos and 394 00:23:43,100 --> 00:23:44,300 how easy it is and stuff like that. 395 00:23:44,300 --> 00:23:46,500 And I think not only is it marketing obviously for the 396 00:23:46,500 --> 00:23:49,900 product, but I think subtly somewhere, there is a look how 397 00:23:49,900 --> 00:23:53,500 easy this is and you're starting to see these patterns and you 398 00:23:53,500 --> 00:23:56,600 just pick up on, right? You see the same Apple 399 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,200 commercial with the Funky Music and whatever it might be, right? 400 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:01,500 And then you see it and I'm starting to see the same thing 401 00:24:01,500 --> 00:24:03,800 with Google, right and their pixel phones, and then doing the 402 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:05,600 marketing around, you know, them. 403 00:24:05,700 --> 00:24:07,900 I'm launching their various authentication schemes were 404 00:24:07,900 --> 00:24:12,400 Biometrics and things like that. Mmm, in my is that tinfoil hat 405 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,700 of me, is it my thinking too hard about it or do you think 406 00:24:15,700 --> 00:24:18,900 that actually is a conscious decision as part of marketing, a 407 00:24:18,900 --> 00:24:22,400 product to show some of these features in a way that is, is 408 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,500 more of a subliminal training to the people who might be 409 00:24:25,508 --> 00:24:27,600 interested in it? I mean, I can't speak for. 410 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:30,100 I can't speak for them too but I see it the same way. 411 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:32,300 Okay, great minds. Think alike. 412 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:36,100 Ha, ha ha, ha, ha. I wonder if You know, some 413 00:24:36,100 --> 00:24:42,700 companies are looking at having a different process, helps them 414 00:24:42,700 --> 00:24:46,600 lock in their customers. And so what I'd love to see like 415 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:51,200 the, you know, the way like, like streaming TV apps 416 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,700 authenticated and everything is kind of the the same, whether 417 00:24:54,700 --> 00:25:00,700 it's Google, Microsoft, Apple. So don't feel like, I'm getting 418 00:25:00,700 --> 00:25:03,300 locked in or don't know what to do, things like that. 419 00:25:05,300 --> 00:25:10,300 Because I think that really Maps back to what is a good user 420 00:25:10,300 --> 00:25:14,500 experience is that people don't have to read instructions in 421 00:25:14,500 --> 00:25:17,900 order to authenticate, right? I think the other thing that a 422 00:25:17,900 --> 00:25:22,900 good user experience is like, if I lose, or I get my get a new 423 00:25:22,900 --> 00:25:29,600 device, I could end the unhappy path is that it's not insecure 424 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,900 and it's not like rocket science to figure it out. 425 00:25:33,900 --> 00:25:37,200 It's not different. The way everybody does it, but 426 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,900 I'll throw the question back to you, Kevin, like in your mind if 427 00:25:40,900 --> 00:25:44,900 somebody wants to know what is a good user experience, how do you 428 00:25:44,900 --> 00:25:49,700 explain it and broadly Beyond authentication? 429 00:25:52,100 --> 00:25:54,400 First thing that comes to mind is the solves a real neat? 430 00:25:55,200 --> 00:26:04,100 You know? And you know, does so in a way 431 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:08,900 that allows somebody to focus on what really matters 432 00:26:11,300 --> 00:26:16,200 Authentication, Isn't the tasks that anybody has? 433 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:22,100 It's not what really matters? In other words, if I need to 434 00:26:22,100 --> 00:26:28,300 sign in to deliver a piece of work at work, the authentication 435 00:26:28,300 --> 00:26:30,400 isn't the end gold. So what that case is just never 436 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:35,200 the end goal if we can allow to be secure. 437 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,900 It's a great experience. If that Fades away and just lets 438 00:26:37,900 --> 00:26:41,100 you get to that thing that you want to do, you know? 439 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:46,100 And doesn't get in the way with with all these other hurdles you 440 00:26:46,100 --> 00:26:49,800 have to go through. Yeah, because to me the I don't 441 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,600 know, some ways I think the authentication part is the easy 442 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,900 part. It's I got a new phone. 443 00:26:56,300 --> 00:26:59,100 Oh you're talking about the edge cases is the unhappy PLM? 444 00:26:59,100 --> 00:27:01,400 Happy Valley. Yeah, well that's that's 445 00:27:02,300 --> 00:27:04,100 frankly. I'll just say I think that's 446 00:27:04,100 --> 00:27:07,900 been the you know, it's been a real challenge. 447 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:10,400 Yeah. And that's what past passkey 448 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:14,400 Sol's for a lot of that. No, because if I the whole 449 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,900 definition of a passkey, is it survives device loss. 450 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,000 So, if I lose my device, I get a new device. 451 00:27:22,500 --> 00:27:25,800 And I, and when I get that new device with that same platform, 452 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:29,700 provider that, that passkey will then be on that new device. 453 00:27:30,500 --> 00:27:33,800 That wasn't the case until passkey there had to be other 454 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,600 recovery mechanisms. So, you know, account recovery 455 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:44,800 is is the hard is the hard The hard thing to solve for even 456 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:47,200 within passkey, I'm not going to say that. 457 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,800 Passkeys like that, you know, the ultimate Silver Bullet 458 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:55,200 because they're still edge cases with passkey, where you can't 459 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,200 recover the keyer, you know, there could there can and will 460 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,400 be cases that Brands need to solve for around that. 461 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:05,100 So yeah, account recovery is a big one. 462 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:12,100 Finally went to ask, like, do we cover pretty much what you 463 00:28:12,300 --> 00:28:17,900 covered in your sessions during the conference and then were you 464 00:28:17,900 --> 00:28:21,200 sitting through other sessions and did you either hear anything 465 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:26,200 that that challenge your way of thinking or they, you know, it's 466 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:28,500 great. Confirm, your way of thinking or 467 00:28:28,500 --> 00:28:32,800 was the new education out there that you picked up a lot. 468 00:28:33,100 --> 00:28:35,700 And I'll just answer the letter question first, which is You 469 00:28:35,708 --> 00:28:41,000 know, you know, income in person conference like this, you know, 470 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,700 the meetings, the meetings after the meeting is where I've 471 00:28:43,700 --> 00:28:46,800 learned the most. So it has literally been in the 472 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:50,800 lunchroom, you know, at launch and hearing a conversation and 473 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,500 saying is it okay if I listen in and that's where I've learned 474 00:28:53,500 --> 00:28:58,600 some of the most important you know pieces of advice that I'll 475 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:04,400 take back you know to my work next week and and in some of 476 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:10,000 those larger Keynote speaking tracks. 477 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:11,400 I've learned a lot there as well. 478 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,800 One thing we didn't talk about. I do want to let your audience 479 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,900 know about this. Another thing that we launched 480 00:29:18,900 --> 00:29:22,100 is the the phyto design system, I might have mentioned it. 481 00:29:23,100 --> 00:29:28,800 There were several ux talks one of them at authenticate. 482 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:34,600 This year was launching of the Fido Alliance design system, you 483 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:36,700 can find it. Just tell you where you get it 484 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:41,700 Fido Alliance dot org slash design Dash system. 485 00:29:41,700 --> 00:29:45,400 So there's a whole presentation on it, we had about a dozen 486 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:51,200 designers, accessibility specialist ux researchers from 487 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,000 around the world that help put that together. 488 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:57,300 If you're in the authentication space, you're creating new 489 00:29:57,308 --> 00:30:00,700 experiences around authentication, you know to go. 490 00:30:00,700 --> 00:30:04,200 So go check that out. It's the first version and I 491 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:05,600 will say, the first version does not. 492 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:09,700 Not include passkey, but we're doing passkey ux research now, 493 00:30:09,700 --> 00:30:11,500 and that'll be published in the next. 494 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:16,200 We'll say, ER, Q early next year and that will be incorporated 495 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,200 into that design system, and I'll drop a link to that in our 496 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:20,800 show notes about. Thank you, hopefully find it. 497 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,700 Yeah, that'd be great. You know, I was just thinking 498 00:30:23,700 --> 00:30:25,500 this conversation back and forth, you and Jimmy just 499 00:30:25,500 --> 00:30:28,500 happened just now and remember how I said I give Apple credit, 500 00:30:28,500 --> 00:30:32,600 and when it's due, I'm so going to dump on Apple, whatever it 501 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:35,000 needs it. Because it got me thinking about 502 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:40,000 this About passkeys, right? And and sharing them, and 503 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,200 sinking them between devices and things like that. 504 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:46,600 And for those who aren't familiar, the new iPhone 14 in 505 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:53,400 the u.s. now uses Isom instead of a physical Sim For someone 506 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:57,900 like me that sucks because I like to change devices all the 507 00:30:57,900 --> 00:31:01,000 time and it's very easy for me to pop out my physical SIM card 508 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:04,400 and throw it to New Device. I could no longer do that. 509 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:06,700 Because now I'm on a nice M because I'm using the new 510 00:31:06,700 --> 00:31:08,600 iPhone. If I want to switch to a new 511 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:13,200 device, there's no easy way for me to transfer from an Apple 512 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,900 device to a Android device, which I am prone to do is Jim 513 00:31:16,900 --> 00:31:22,100 wouldn't, Jim will tell you. For that to work. 514 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:27,200 I actually have to call somebody get on with customer service and 515 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:31,300 say here's what I need to do and then at some point during that 516 00:31:31,300 --> 00:31:33,700 call I'm going to get dropped because they're going to 517 00:31:33,708 --> 00:31:35,900 transfer my service or not finish it. 518 00:31:35,900 --> 00:31:38,100 You know provisioning the new sim on the on the new lease 519 00:31:38,100 --> 00:31:42,000 amount of advice and I think about that usability and all the 520 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,700 credit that what into like oh yeah made things very easy. 521 00:31:45,100 --> 00:31:49,300 They went ahead and launch this knowing I'm assuming that that 522 00:31:49,300 --> 00:31:51,400 gaps. Still exists and it's basically 523 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:55,300 forcing us to move to the East and least in the u.s. under lock 524 00:31:55,300 --> 00:31:57,400 in. It's not vendor lock-in, it's 525 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:02,100 just a poorly design process because I can Port my phone off, 526 00:32:02,100 --> 00:32:05,100 an Apple device, whenever I want and I see us very similar to 527 00:32:05,100 --> 00:32:08,700 sort of, almost like the passkey experience where we talk about 528 00:32:08,700 --> 00:32:11,100 the unhappy path. There are certainly some gaps 529 00:32:11,100 --> 00:32:13,300 still in Pass Key implementation. 530 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,500 You talk about hallway conversations and I had one 531 00:32:16,500 --> 00:32:19,600 myself and questions of all how do you invalidate a passkey? 532 00:32:20,500 --> 00:32:22,700 There doesn't seem to be a way right now and I think that's 533 00:32:22,700 --> 00:32:25,300 probably something is going to come up in a couple days around. 534 00:32:25,300 --> 00:32:26,400 You know, what does that look like? 535 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:30,100 From not only like us back perspective but a design 536 00:32:30,100 --> 00:32:34,100 perspective because if we're assuming that passkeys are going 537 00:32:34,100 --> 00:32:41,100 to, you know, be part of the process that we want people to 538 00:32:41,100 --> 00:32:44,300 authenticate to and they're going to share their passwords 539 00:32:44,500 --> 00:32:46,200 with somebody else. How are they going to 540 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:48,200 invalidate? That are you asking? 541 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,000 I'm not asking, I can't answer. It. 542 00:32:50,100 --> 00:32:52,800 Yeah, I'm just thinking, you know, of, you know, those are 543 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,400 the types of usability diving at what I wherever, I'm aware of 544 00:32:55,900 --> 00:32:58,400 the discussions, but I am not going to try to answer that 545 00:32:58,400 --> 00:32:59,700 right now. Yeah, no, I'm not gonna put you 546 00:32:59,700 --> 00:33:01,200 in a spot for. I'm just thinking out loud, 547 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:05,100 right here is what kind of the conversations and, you know, Jim 548 00:33:05,100 --> 00:33:09,000 asked the question, what makes for a good user experience and 549 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,600 I'm curious, you know, how do you apply some of those 550 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:13,600 principles to the phyto standard? 551 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:16,800 For example, I know the US has been a big Focus for the last 552 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:19,200 couple of years and I remember Andrew actually talking to us 553 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:21,300 about it. Several, Is back, kind of 554 00:33:21,300 --> 00:33:24,500 mentioning it as well. You know, what are some of the 555 00:33:24,500 --> 00:33:27,800 principles that are like, you know, Hey Kevin says, we need to 556 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:29,200 do this to make this thing usable, right? 557 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:30,900 No, such as Kevin, right? There's a whole bunch of people 558 00:33:30,900 --> 00:33:33,900 doing it. But how much influence does the 559 00:33:33,900 --> 00:33:37,800 design and the usability? Go into? 560 00:33:37,900 --> 00:33:40,300 Here's how it's actually going to work in the real world. 561 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:45,800 Yeah, well we the way we've laid it out in the u.s. committee and 562 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:49,100 Fido is there's kind of three levels for usability of Fido. 563 00:33:50,500 --> 00:33:55,000 One our best practices that Brands and you know, relying 564 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:56,800 parties. I keep on saying Brands relying 565 00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,000 parties because some people don't know what relying party 566 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:03,600 means. So that first level of usability 567 00:34:03,900 --> 00:34:07,100 is is in the control of the relying party. 568 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,199 They're in control of their website, they're in control of 569 00:34:10,199 --> 00:34:13,199 how they present the authentication, their control of 570 00:34:13,199 --> 00:34:16,400 what words they put on screen. There are control of what the 571 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:18,800 button looks like, and what the label says on the button there 572 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:21,600 control of all that. That there are best practices 573 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:24,600 around that, and we provide a lot of those best practices. 574 00:34:24,900 --> 00:34:28,199 So that's kind of the Baseline, but if we move up from there, 575 00:34:28,300 --> 00:34:33,300 there's another level a second level and that is ecosystem, 576 00:34:33,300 --> 00:34:37,100 consistency across browsers across platforms. 577 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,699 People have lots of different devices on different platforms. 578 00:34:41,199 --> 00:34:43,900 And if the experience is different from one of the other, 579 00:34:43,900 --> 00:34:48,000 it creates friction, as how does this work because I, it's not, 580 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:49,699 that's not what I saw previously. 581 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:51,500 Lee. There's an extra step in here. 582 00:34:51,500 --> 00:34:55,000 Something's wrong. So, that's the second tier, 583 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:56,699 which is that ecosystem consistency. 584 00:34:56,699 --> 00:35:00,600 The third tier is really usability challenges or 585 00:35:00,900 --> 00:35:04,300 opportunities that can only be solved with adjustments to the 586 00:35:04,300 --> 00:35:07,200 spec. Perhaps that's probably the most 587 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,100 difficult because that requires a tremendous amount of 588 00:35:10,100 --> 00:35:16,700 collaboration with very technical people and long 589 00:35:16,700 --> 00:35:19,600 thoughtful conversations about the relationship. 590 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:24,800 Between usability and security. We're starting this is, you 591 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:29,800 know, this is still new for Fido Alliance to formalize. 592 00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:35,800 A ux practice or way of way of producing guidelines. 593 00:35:36,300 --> 00:35:41,200 We're still really focus on that that bottom line of just helping 594 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:44,200 our peas, do the right thing that's in their control. 595 00:35:46,300 --> 00:35:53,600 But I will say, passkey does is A move at that higher level 596 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,700 where it's not a change in the spec, is really the spec hasn't 597 00:35:56,700 --> 00:36:01,900 really changed much. There's a some, some, some 598 00:36:02,700 --> 00:36:10,700 addition not in addition, but like ancillary adjacent options 599 00:36:10,700 --> 00:36:14,000 that you can have to support passkey, but that fundamentally 600 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:18,800 changed changes the usability. So that is an example of where 601 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,400 we're getting. And across the three platform 602 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:25,000 providers to make that needed usability change. 603 00:36:26,700 --> 00:36:30,000 It seems like usability is a never-ending Journey, when are 604 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:32,500 you done? And it's like, okay, we've got a 605 00:36:32,508 --> 00:36:37,000 ship like we're done. It's too hard to answer. 606 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:40,200 There's no there's no there. There really isn't, there's no 607 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:43,600 single way to answer that because it all depends on the 608 00:36:43,607 --> 00:36:49,800 context of what the use case is with the unique business 609 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:55,800 environment that you're in. But I think the bigger point is 610 00:36:55,900 --> 00:36:58,400 that it's not, it's not ever done and that you have to 611 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:02,600 iterate. There's one other point. 612 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:04,600 I didn't necessarily get back to, you know, your prior 613 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:07,200 question. What makes a great user 614 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,100 experience? There is something else to 615 00:37:10,100 --> 00:37:14,600 consider that's being more and more spoken about and a and 616 00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:17,100 accounted for and Fido. And that's accessibility. 617 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:23,600 So accessibility making sure that The best practices that we 618 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,900 provide and even the implementation of these 619 00:37:26,900 --> 00:37:31,300 Technologies, like passkey, you know, making sure that they're 620 00:37:31,300 --> 00:37:33,900 accessible the platform providers. 621 00:37:33,900 --> 00:37:39,200 I say, do the best job at that, as a designer, who's been doing 622 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:44,500 this for a long, long time, if you can Base. 623 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:52,000 A lot of your ux UI framework on what the platform provides, then 624 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:56,700 you have your, you're likely to get the best accessibility out 625 00:37:56,700 --> 00:37:58,600 of that platform. Meaning. 626 00:37:59,300 --> 00:38:03,500 Yeah, meaning people who have low vision can use the system. 627 00:38:03,700 --> 00:38:08,900 People who are blind can use the system people who have cognitive 628 00:38:08,900 --> 00:38:13,800 disabilities can use the system. So it's that accessibility It is 629 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:17,000 a is goes hand in glove with usability. 630 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:20,500 That's a fantastic point. No, that was the question. 631 00:38:20,500 --> 00:38:22,800 I was going to ask this, like, what do you mean about 632 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:26,500 accessibility? And I remember working on some 633 00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:33,200 design documents for, you know, government websites and like 634 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:38,400 what they have to go through to be, you know, ad a TA TAA 635 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:43,000 compliant, tremendous amount of work and it'd be nice if you 636 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:48,100 could just plug into something that makes your experience. 637 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:51,300 Whatever that is, you're a poor things like that. 638 00:38:51,700 --> 00:38:55,300 And like you said, I guess the answer is if you can leverage 639 00:38:55,300 --> 00:38:58,500 something off of the platform, that's the way to go, it really 640 00:38:58,500 --> 00:39:02,900 is the amount of it does take a lot of work and we're in a new 641 00:39:02,900 --> 00:39:07,800 industry Tech in general, is still just new compared to other 642 00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:12,900 Industries, and we're learning how to build accessibility. 643 00:39:12,900 --> 00:39:16,600 And from from day one, ultimately, if you make a 644 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:20,100 digital product, Accessible. You're helping everybody. 645 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:25,800 It does help everybody. The same thing in the physical 646 00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:28,700 space. It's Ada law that you have to, 647 00:39:28,700 --> 00:39:33,900 you know, a ramp to be able to get into a public facility, 648 00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:37,300 that's people in where wheelchairs Etc are, it's 649 00:39:37,300 --> 00:39:40,800 accessible, right? But it also helps the person 650 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:45,200 pushing a baby stroller, you know, it helps everybody and the 651 00:39:45,207 --> 00:39:47,000 same thing applies to the digital space. 652 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:50,700 There's many examples, Designed for accessibility it, makes it 653 00:39:50,700 --> 00:39:54,300 more usable for everybody and I'm and I should give credit 654 00:39:54,700 --> 00:39:57,100 where it's due within the ux committee. 655 00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:01,000 There's a woman from VMware, joist Ishita. 656 00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:07,400 That is a use of accessibility specialist, that has really 657 00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:12,600 contributed, so much to Fido and to the ux guidelines around 658 00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:15,300 accessibility. So I have one final question 659 00:40:15,300 --> 00:40:19,900 before we start to wrap things up and that is is how much so 660 00:40:19,900 --> 00:40:24,500 we're moving towards standardization and specs and 661 00:40:24,500 --> 00:40:27,300 things like that were trying to be consistent with things. 662 00:40:28,500 --> 00:40:33,000 At what point does. The the I guess the question is 663 00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:36,500 is the user experience secret sauce? 664 00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:41,200 For a product, right? If if we're in this space was 665 00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:43,100 like, oh yeah, everybody's using passkeys. 666 00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:45,800 What's the differentiator to have 40 different Pat companies 667 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:50,000 that provide passkeys is that the user experience or is the 668 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:51,800 user experience. Something that does get 669 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:54,100 contributed to sort of like the public domain. 670 00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:59,200 And hey, we were adopting the style of button or image or 671 00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:01,900 whatever it, maybe I'm just curious from my own. 672 00:41:02,300 --> 00:41:06,000 It's a really nuanced question that you ask is if you if you're 673 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,500 asking it of me. Me, I work for a vendor in this 674 00:41:08,500 --> 00:41:12,700 space and so, you know, it's very real, but yet this same 675 00:41:12,700 --> 00:41:15,700 vendor is producing all these guidelines that are just 676 00:41:15,700 --> 00:41:20,400 available for free. So there's there's so much room 677 00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:26,000 to add value as a vendor in this ecosystem and it's just a matter 678 00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:31,900 of deeply empathizing with the needs of brands that are seeking 679 00:41:31,900 --> 00:41:35,800 to deploy deploy them. So we've been mainly talking 680 00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:37,400 about the end user. Experience. 681 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:40,600 But there's also the developer experience, you know, and 682 00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:45,000 there's all kinds of other. There's the there's the legal 683 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:48,800 teams experience. There's this the CFOs experience 684 00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:51,900 of show me the numbers, show me the data I want to see the data. 685 00:41:51,900 --> 00:41:55,100 How is this new authentic? You said this new authentication 686 00:41:55,100 --> 00:41:57,000 was going to affect my bottom line. 687 00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:00,500 How is it going to? I want to see the numbers. 688 00:42:00,900 --> 00:42:04,900 So there's there's all kinds of ways in which you can build 689 00:42:04,900 --> 00:42:09,100 value even If the end user experience has some good 690 00:42:09,100 --> 00:42:13,700 codified, best practices. Now it's the reason I bring it 691 00:42:13,700 --> 00:42:15,900 up is because I think Jim earlier was describing, you 692 00:42:15,908 --> 00:42:19,800 know, here's how Microsoft does their authenticator app does a 693 00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,600 different way, right? Apple does it off the last pass? 694 00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:25,800 It seems like everybody has just a slightly different version. 695 00:42:26,500 --> 00:42:29,700 Yeah, sort of doing the same thing and if we're looking to 696 00:42:29,900 --> 00:42:35,200 make it easy it would seem to me like having a same process and 697 00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:36,700 having something else be the differential. 698 00:42:36,900 --> 00:42:41,700 Are would make more sense. Yeah and I'm at the I don't ya 699 00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:44,300 so you're seeing that in the space, some of the free apps and 700 00:42:44,300 --> 00:42:49,300 tools, you know, the probably over time not be needed and 701 00:42:49,300 --> 00:42:52,900 they'll be other areas where we have to innovate and it's 702 00:42:52,900 --> 00:42:55,400 interesting. It really interested to see 703 00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:59,300 where the, you know, where the password manager companies go. 704 00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:02,900 Yeah, I was having a conversation with that too and I 705 00:43:02,908 --> 00:43:05,500 think it's interesting where those are positioning but that 706 00:43:05,500 --> 00:43:08,800 is a conversation for a Time. I want to start to wrap things 707 00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:10,100 up because I know that you're a busy guy. 708 00:43:10,100 --> 00:43:13,800 You literally stepped off of the stage and into our room and to 709 00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:15,200 do this. So really appreciate, if I want 710 00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:19,000 to give your voice a break. But before we go, I was doing 711 00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:23,700 some osint and notice something that is unique. 712 00:43:23,700 --> 00:43:27,100 I think to any of the guests that we've ever had on the show 713 00:43:27,700 --> 00:43:31,100 and that is it appears to me that you are quite the 714 00:43:31,100 --> 00:43:35,500 bladesmith? Am I in fact correct on that you 715 00:43:35,500 --> 00:43:36,700 are. Well I wouldn't say. 716 00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:41,500 Played but but if I do make knives, yes. 717 00:43:41,500 --> 00:43:43,400 Okay. So tell me about this because 718 00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:46,800 I'm fascinated about we like to end the show on a lighter note, 719 00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:49,900 and Sir, get out from the depth of identity. 720 00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:52,100 And I thought this was really interesting. 721 00:43:52,100 --> 00:43:53,800 I mean, I was, I was kind of looking at some of the stuff 722 00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:56,400 that was out there and say, wow, this is really cool stuff. 723 00:43:56,400 --> 00:44:00,000 And I'm like, how did you get into this like deal, man? 724 00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:02,900 Yeah, well, here's the deal. So a lot of those probably five, 725 00:44:02,900 --> 00:44:05,100 six years ago. Jim you mentioned it earlier. 726 00:44:05,100 --> 00:44:08,500 So, Fortune to fire a show, Go on History Channel if you 727 00:44:08,500 --> 00:44:11,100 haven't seen it, go check it out, you'll love it. 728 00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:14,800 But I don't know about every guy had like if I see something that 729 00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:17,500 looks interesting, like I want to learn how to do it, you know, 730 00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:20,200 as like going to travel to Italy and have all this gelato. 731 00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:23,000 It's like when I get home I want to learn how to make gelato, not 732 00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:25,400 just buy it. So I want to learn how to make 733 00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:29,000 make these knives myself and it's been quite a journey. 734 00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:34,300 But most of my hobby, I spend so much time in front of the 735 00:44:34,308 --> 00:44:36,500 fragile glowing screen is what I like to call it. 736 00:44:37,300 --> 00:44:41,500 Then I just like my hobbies to be away from the fragile glowing 737 00:44:41,500 --> 00:44:45,100 screen. So to work with metal, that's up 738 00:44:45,100 --> 00:44:48,300 at 2200 degrees and be hitting it with a hammer that's away 739 00:44:48,300 --> 00:44:50,800 from the fragile glowing screen. It's a lot of fun. 740 00:44:51,300 --> 00:44:56,200 There's craft there's like metal work, obviously, but they're 741 00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:59,300 woodworking. There's all sorts of Metallurgy 742 00:44:59,300 --> 00:45:02,800 and Science and how the different steals behave. 743 00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:06,800 There's a tremendous amount to that and then we like to cook. 744 00:45:06,900 --> 00:45:10,600 I like to cook with my two boys. My 11 year old, is he loves to 745 00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:13,300 cook? So, every couple weeks once a 746 00:45:13,308 --> 00:45:16,000 month, I have a new knife. It's like here, Hudson. 747 00:45:16,100 --> 00:45:19,000 Here's the knife, be very careful with it because it's 748 00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:22,500 extraordinarily sharp. And then we like to cook with 749 00:45:22,500 --> 00:45:23,200 him. Yeah. 750 00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:26,400 The fortune fire, what I really like is it's kind of like a 751 00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:31,000 historical angle to it as right. So, yeah, the project that they 752 00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:35,800 give is usually hey, this was from the Ming Dynasty and it was 753 00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:40,100 a special kind of Of, you know, there's what's the difference 754 00:45:40,100 --> 00:45:42,600 between a sword and knife? There's probably very technical 755 00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:44,900 definition, don't know. There's all these other 756 00:45:44,900 --> 00:45:50,200 different types of blades or you know weapons, but there's always 757 00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:52,700 that historical angle so I'm wondering to you. 758 00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:57,200 What's your favorite will be, what is your favorite knife and 759 00:45:57,200 --> 00:45:59,100 have you done something like that? 760 00:45:59,100 --> 00:46:02,600 Like taking a historical bend on any of this? 761 00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:07,300 Well, I'm only on my maybe 12 knife so it's not Haven't done 762 00:46:07,300 --> 00:46:10,200 dozens or hundreds of them, I am making a sword. 763 00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:15,500 I'm on my third, third sword because my son asked me for if I 764 00:46:15,500 --> 00:46:18,600 could make him a katana for his 13th birthday. 765 00:46:19,900 --> 00:46:23,200 What kind of Sword? Katana is a Japanese speaks 766 00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:27,000 Japanese sword. Yeah, so I don't know. 767 00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:30,200 My favorite, you know, there's something called Damascus, which 768 00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:33,100 is the pattern steel. It's, when you fold steel, and 769 00:46:33,107 --> 00:46:35,800 it creates this amazing pattern, you could have thousands of 770 00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:39,200 layers. Of Steel within a sword. 771 00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:41,000 And you see that on the edge of the blade. 772 00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:44,500 It's very, very beautiful. And I've done some of that 773 00:46:44,500 --> 00:46:47,300 integrating copper in it and stuff, but the thing that I 774 00:46:47,300 --> 00:46:49,800 really have enjoyed is, it's called Mono steel. 775 00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:53,600 So a single steel, but doing a differential, this is going to 776 00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:55,200 get really nerdy quickly. I love it. 777 00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:58,400 Keep it, you're good at, but you do a differential heart of heat 778 00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:03,200 treat on the knife to produce what's called a hormone, and it 779 00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:08,000 is a line that you see on the blade and that It separates the 780 00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:12,000 hardened steel from the more softer, see of Steel. 781 00:47:12,500 --> 00:47:16,700 And you do that so that the the steel Edge that you're using all 782 00:47:16,700 --> 00:47:19,400 the time stays Harden, you don't have to sharpen it every day. 783 00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:22,100 Every week, every month, like when I make my knives, they stay 784 00:47:22,100 --> 00:47:26,200 sharp a long time, but then the rest of the blade can be more 785 00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:29,800 soft and malleable. If you drop it, it's not going 786 00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:33,800 to shatter like glass, you know? So producing that home alone, 787 00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:36,500 doing that differential, heat treat is. 788 00:47:37,500 --> 00:47:42,700 Man, there's so much science craft like materials. 789 00:47:42,700 --> 00:47:44,500 You have to research. I just love it. 790 00:47:44,500 --> 00:47:47,000 Yeah she'll be times when I show where someone thinks they've 791 00:47:47,100 --> 00:47:49,900 created the perfect sword and then they have breaks the guy 792 00:47:49,900 --> 00:47:54,400 wax it against the you know tree a few times to shatters. 793 00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:56,200 Yeah. Yeah. 794 00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:59,000 How long does it take to make something like this? 795 00:47:59,300 --> 00:48:00,600 Like I should say like I don't know. 796 00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:03,000 I don't know what an average knife or blade would be. 797 00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:05,200 But how long does it take to put something together? 798 00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:07,800 Right well for me I'm you know I'm doing Nights and weekends. 799 00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:11,500 So, you know, at this point, it's like, 34 weeks to correct 800 00:48:11,500 --> 00:48:13,500 kitchen knife. I'll make a very large kitchen 801 00:48:13,500 --> 00:48:17,400 knife this 34 weeks, but, you know, it's kind of like, what 802 00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:19,200 you just asked earlier, is it ever done? 803 00:48:19,500 --> 00:48:21,600 I've been trying to force myself, you know, every knife. 804 00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:23,800 Don't Be Afraid freshness, just finish it. 805 00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:29,500 And then, all the things I screwed up to take to the next 806 00:48:29,500 --> 00:48:33,000 one and then try to make that next one better, you know? 807 00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:36,000 So I try to just just finish them either way. 808 00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:38,100 Even if the other A bunch of mistakes in them. 809 00:48:38,100 --> 00:48:40,600 That's so cool. I wish, you know, people could 810 00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:43,600 see this goes like this. Just a smile on Kevin's face 811 00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:45,500 right now. He's like a, like a, like a 812 00:48:45,500 --> 00:48:48,500 passion and, like, just a real Joy from it, which I think is 813 00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:50,600 fantastic. I mean, it's, it's infectious 814 00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:53,200 because I got me smiling too. Well, check out Fortune fires. 815 00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:55,600 It's a really interesting Community is a lot of people 816 00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:57,100 doing it these days. Yeah. 817 00:48:57,100 --> 00:48:59,900 And I don't think it's the cheapest hobby either, right? 818 00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:04,900 Oh my God. So yeah, the friend of mine who 819 00:49:04,900 --> 00:49:09,400 I use his very large honey. It down power, hammer near where 820 00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:13,200 I live. He says common phrase and 821 00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:18,200 blacksmithing is why why buy something for 20 bucks when you 822 00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:19,700 can make it for two thousand dollars? 823 00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:23,100 You know, it's the only like that these knives need of it. 824 00:49:23,100 --> 00:49:25,900 They don't. It's a lot of, a lot of tools. 825 00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:28,500 Sounds an awful lot like a lot of security. 826 00:49:28,900 --> 00:49:30,500 Yeah. Like the Fairly Odd. 827 00:49:32,100 --> 00:49:34,000 Yeah. All right, we're gonna go ahead 828 00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:37,400 and let you get on to your crafting, your next Project at 829 00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:40,300 some point here before we go any final thoughts. 830 00:49:40,300 --> 00:49:42,300 Any takeaways from the conference and I think this is 831 00:49:42,300 --> 00:49:45,100 really kind of the last recording that we've been doing 832 00:49:45,100 --> 00:49:46,600 here for, you know, for the authenticate conference. 833 00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:50,500 But any final thoughts, just from the moment, I walked into 834 00:49:50,500 --> 00:49:54,600 the conference, I was just really impressed how much it's 835 00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:58,500 grown since last year and I think if anybody is doing 836 00:49:58,500 --> 00:50:01,600 anything and authentication, like they need you mentioned, it 837 00:50:01,607 --> 00:50:04,100 might be in San Diego, or it's going to be in Carlsbad or 838 00:50:04,100 --> 00:50:06,300 something. They should go next year. 839 00:50:07,500 --> 00:50:13,700 There's a great sense of community and yeah, I it's been 840 00:50:13,700 --> 00:50:16,000 a good event. Yeah, definitely hats off to the 841 00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:17,800 team here, I made it's a fantastic conference. 842 00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:21,200 Can't can't recommend it enough. And I think there's plenty of 843 00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:25,600 content where you don't need to necessarily be an expert in. 844 00:50:26,100 --> 00:50:29,600 Maybe know the Deep guts of Technology of technology or 845 00:50:29,607 --> 00:50:32,400 authentication, there is something for everyone here and 846 00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:34,300 I think it's an opportunity to learn stuff like that, which is 847 00:50:34,300 --> 00:50:37,200 very cool. So Jim, any final It's this is 848 00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:38,900 our last show here from authenticate, right? 849 00:50:38,900 --> 00:50:42,500 Yeah I mean final alliances doing a great job pulling. 850 00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:47,000 I think the organization Fido Alliance taking the photo to 851 00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:50,900 standard and you know shepherding it through. 852 00:50:50,900 --> 00:50:54,500 I think it's like the perfect combination because I think 853 00:50:54,700 --> 00:50:57,800 Fighter 2 is something different than the phyto alliance right. 854 00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:01,300 The fire lines are so important because it's having conferences 855 00:51:01,300 --> 00:51:05,700 like this and running the member plenary and you know, taking 856 00:51:05,700 --> 00:51:10,400 this We've been dogging on the password forever, right? 857 00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:14,000 I mean we pull that one article Bill Gates at the passwords 858 00:51:14,100 --> 00:51:18,200 going away like overnight and that was like 15 years ago or 859 00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:22,800 something and finer lines didn't even exist at that point. 860 00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:27,300 So how's it going to get there? It's, this is going to be the 861 00:51:27,300 --> 00:51:31,200 main driver, I think. So, I'll of what is being done 862 00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:34,600 here. I guess more and more and more. 863 00:51:34,700 --> 00:51:36,400 Keep moving the ball. Yeah. 864 00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:39,200 Keep Even and hopefully keep driving adoption and 865 00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:41,900 organizations things like that. It'll get there over time. 866 00:51:41,900 --> 00:51:45,200 So we'll go ahead and leave it for for this one. 867 00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:49,700 I'll have links in our show notes to Kevin to True Sona to 868 00:51:49,700 --> 00:51:52,700 the design system document or web page. 869 00:51:52,700 --> 00:51:54,400 You referring to. I found your while we're 870 00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:57,100 talking. And then for us you can find us 871 00:51:57,100 --> 00:51:59,200 on the web where identity the center.com. 872 00:51:59,500 --> 00:52:03,400 We're on Twitter at idac. Podcasts and special thanks to 873 00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:05,100 the Fido team. And again for our SM, for 874 00:52:05,100 --> 00:52:08,600 sponsoring our coverage, And will God leave it for this week 875 00:52:08,900 --> 00:52:10,600 and talk with everyone in the next one. 876 00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:16,300 Thanks for listening to the identity at the center podcast. 877 00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:18,700 If you like what you heard, don't forget to subscribe and 878 00:52:18,700 --> 00:52:21,400 visit us on the web and identity at the center.com.