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This is identity at the center. 
If it has anything to do with 

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IAM, this is the go to podcast 
now your hosts Jim McDonald and 

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Jeff Stedman. 
Welcome to the Identity at the 

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Center podcast. 
I'm Jeff and that's Jim. 

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Hey, Jim. 
Hey, Jeff, how are you? 

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Oh, not so bad yourself. 
I'm doing great man. 

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We're here doing another sponsor
spotlight episode and that these

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are fantastic and I'm really 
excited with the one that we got

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today. 
I mean you know we we've, I 

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think we kind of hit the jackpot
in terms of what we're going to 

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talk about today is a company 
called Visa. 

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I don't want to steal the 
Thunder of the show, but I guess

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if you if you saw the the title 
of the podcast, you know already

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we're talking to Rich from Visa.
But it's like this up and coming

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company, right? 
And it's like it can't be 

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ignored for sure. 
And to me, it's just like, wow, 

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like, we're going to talk about 
so many great things today. 

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Yeah. 
So I guess you've already 

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spoiled it. 
We're talking with Vasa, but 

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want to make it clear, right, 
this is a sponsored episode. 

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We actually work with our 
sponsors on these and kind of 

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come up collaboratively of how 
we want to develop a show that 

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we think will be entertaining, 
informative, but also get us you

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know deeper into specific 
viewpoints, specific solutions, 

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something that we try to stay 
away from on our normal shows. 

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But this gives us an opportunity
to talk with you know, really 

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smart people and really ask 
specific questions that are 

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maybe more product focused than 
we normally would where we're 

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really talking big ideas, maybe 
stuff like that. 

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Not that we want to talk big 
ideas here, but gives us, give 

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us a little more specificity. 
We can kind of talk through 

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things. 
Yeah, I I didn't want to give 

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away the identity. 
What I really wanted to say was 

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we got the man with the golden 
pipes back on the show excited 

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to to hear, just to hear him 
talk because like he has like a 

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Grover Washington type of voice.
Yeah, definitely good pipes. 

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So today's sponsor is Beza. 
They're the identity security 

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company. 
They think that they've cracked 

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the code on cybersecurity's 
hardest question. 

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Who can take what action on what
data? 

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Question mark. 
Let's find out more with our 

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guest. 
His name is Rich Dan Leicher. 

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He's the chief strategist at 
Vasa. 

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Welcome back to the show, Rich. 
Thanks, Jeff. 

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Thanks Jim. 
It's it's great to be here. 

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And now I was just, I was just 
all the time when you were 

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talking and on my intro, I was 
hoping my voice wouldn't crack 

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right out of the gate here. 
Well, see, that's The thing is, 

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I do the editing so I can insert
little imperfections if I need 

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to, but I'm not going to do that
because I'm absolutely jealous. 

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You've got a great you've got 
great radio pipes, as they like 

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to say in the Fizz, right? 
Thank you. 

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As long as as long again as you 
don't, you don't tell me I have 

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a face for radio, then I'm good.
Now Jim and I have that covered 

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for sure. 
We have faces for radio and 

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voices for a silent movie is 
what I like to say. 

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Rich, you've been with us 
before. 

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You were with us in Episode 231 
back in September of 2023. 

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We had a conversation about 
authorization. 

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We also found out really about 
your kind of background there. 

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So tradition would have, we 
would ask that question. 

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But we've already asked you 
that. 

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How did you get into the 
identity? 

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We want to hear that story go 
back to episode 231. 

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Why don't we get right into Vasa
itself. 

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Jim mentioned sort of you know, 
where you guys are kind of 

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coming up and really you know, 
making a lot of impact on the 

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market, making a lot of noise. 
What specifically is driving the

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momentum around Vasa and how 
does that success reflect your 

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unique values? 
Yeah. 

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Thanks Jeff. 
And by the way it's it is great 

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to be back on the show. 
I really did enjoy the last time

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and so it's it's nice to be here
again. 

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But around with the Vasa I think
one of the things that that that

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really is striking to me as I 
sort of look trying to you know 

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trying to be with an outside 
eye, side eye and and look at us

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is that I think it really does 
come down to customers. 

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I think that's that's certainly 
my gauge for a great company is 

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like who's actually buying, 
who's actually using, who's 

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getting successful and getting 
value from the products. 

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And I think that's been one 
where I've been really, really 

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proud of what we've been able to
do here. 

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Just some really great companies
and some really passionate 

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champions. 
And so that's that's definitely 

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part of I think what also makes 
people out in the market makes 

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Seesos, Seesos you know listen 
to other Seesos like that is 

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typically how how things sort of
get bought, how things spread 

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and I think I think we have been
doing a really nice job there. 

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The second big thing I think is 
really that it's a pretty 

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innovative idea and a concept. 
And I think I, you know, and I 

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always try and make sure I'm 
not, I'm not, I'm not selling 

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myself too much here, but I 
really think, you know, I have, 

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I've been an identity for a 
while and I think you guys have 

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certainly been an identity for a
while. 

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And one of the things that I've 
noticed is that a lot of the 

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players are just are, you know, 
they're kind of the same players

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you would have seen and 
expected, you know, 15 years 

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ago. 
And I think, you know, the Octa 

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sort of came in, but that was 
back in 2009, that Octa started.

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And so I think the identity 
hasn't had a tremendous amount 

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of innovation over the last 
decade and 1/2 and I think it's 

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been, it's been ripe, it's been 
ready. 

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And so I think actually coming 
in with I think what is a pretty

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different approach in in really 
trying to go deep into 

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authorization into this question
of who can and should take what 

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action and what data. 
I think is, you know, I think 

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people respond to that and 
people have been hungry because 

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and I think everybody knows that
identity is a is a big thing 

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that needs to be really 
addressed. 

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So for people who aren't 
familiar with DAISA, I guess 

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let's set, let's set the table 
for folks you know, we've 

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mentioned authorization. 
We've mentioned the question and

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and the answer, right? 
Who can take what action on what

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data? 
What is Beza's sweet spot? 

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What do you guys do? 
Yeah, I think you know from a 

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from a value proposition, I 
think fundamentally the most 

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important thing that we do is we
help customers get to the 

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reality of least privilege, 
right. 

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If I think about like what you 
know, like from a security 

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perspective, like what's 
important that I think is, is 

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absolutely critical. 
Sometimes it's through 

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governance processes like access
reviews. 

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Sometimes it's by having a tool 
that a security engineering 

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person can go and actually look 
and find the biggest violations 

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of least privilege to go and to 
go and fix them. 

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But I think fundamentally it's 
that it's that preparation for 

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the next breach. 
Because it's just, you know, 

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that always resonates with me 
when I hear people talk about, 

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hey, it's not a question, 
question of if it's a matter of 

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when the next attack happens, 
the next breach happens. 

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And I think really getting your 
organization ready, tightening 

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down, privilege, tightening 
around access, especially 

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privileged accounts, that's like
so critical. 

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So fundamentally like that's how
I think about the value that we 

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provide. 
I mean it's a very competitive 

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market. 
You've got a lot of incumbents 

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in this space, You've got 
upstarts and I guess you know, 

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how do you separate yourself 
from others in this place? 

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What's the core factor or thing 
that makes Vasa really stand out

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in your mind? 
Yeah, I think that it really is 

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starting at the data model. 
Like when I think about the 

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product and I think about the 
platform that we've built around

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identity security, it's pulling 
together all this information 

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about what we call is the 
reality of authorization. 

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So it's pulling in user 
information, group information, 

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role information, decomposing 
all that morass of A WSI AM and 

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Azure RBAC, but then also going 
deep into the service level to 

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pull out granular system level 
objects in all the services and 

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things like local users, ACL 
level permissions. 

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So really going and putting 
together a pretty unique data 

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set into into a graph and you 
know not just mapping those 

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entities but the relationships 
between those identities. 

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And I think that fundamental 
data model is, I mean it's it's 

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a beast as you can imagine like 
that that is the really a tough 

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problem to solve. 
But then once you have that, the

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things that you can then start 
applying that to you around 

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actually creating products based
on that data model are really, 

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really interesting. 
And you can do things that are 

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sort of traditional like IGA 
types of things like 

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provisioning and life cycle 
management. 

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You can do it in very different 
ways. 

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And that's one of the things 
from a, you know, I'm a product 

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guy at heart. 
And so that that kind of stuff 

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gets me excited when you can 
sort of go and attack those 

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those things that have been 
around forever, but do it in a 

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dramatically different way that 
provides and solves problems 

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that have been around forever. 
Yeah, Rich, I mean that really 

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resonates with me. 
Anytime you've here of a new 

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vendor, you've tried to, in your
mind compartmentalize, OK, where

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did I fit them, right. 
And I think the area that vases 

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in the closest to is governance.
But I I feel like it's kind of 

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like a gloss over just to say 
governance, right. 

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It's like so much more than 
that, right? 

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It's being able to drill down 
more than I've seen really 

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anywhere else. 
But talk to you about kind of 

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the the strategy of Visa in 
terms of the road map. 

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I came up with the term the anti
convergence strategy, right? 

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And there there's a lot of IM 
players out there today who are 

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really in the strategy around 
convergence, right? 

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Whether you like it or not, 
that's the route they're going, 

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which is to bolt on additional 
IM capabilities so that 

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customers can kind of go one 
place to get everything. 

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Your strategy is a lot 
different, right, which is to 

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kind of take this piece of the 
marketplace and really like 

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provided a solution with 
differentiation, right? 

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Am I right in that? 
Am I wrong in that? 

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And then can you elaborate on 
it? 

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Yeah. 
No, I think I think you're 

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absolutely right in that Jim 
because one of the things that I

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notice also it it plays into 
this sort of this whole tension 

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and sort of you know difference 
in the market. 

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When you look at sort of the you
know big legacy companies versus

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start-ups you know and and 
certainly the approach of a big 

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legacy company and pick 
Microsoft, pick sale point pick 

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Cyber Ark or whoever you you 
want sort of in identity and the

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general strategy is there. 
I need more stuff in my bag to 

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sell right. 
You go out and you want to say 

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like hey, I, you know, I know 
people spend money on this and 

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here are some budgets and I'm 
going to go use my, you know, 

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my, the connection to the to the
customer to go sell more stuff 

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and get a bigger share of 
wallet. 

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And so it's all about you know 
creating that portfolio whereas 

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typically start-ups that's where
frankly most of the innovation 

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starts And and that's one of the
challenges here is like when we 

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started when I joined the 
company I was like man I hope 

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there's a market but I don't 
know there's a market because 

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it's so it it is so different 
and that I think I think it is 

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true. 
It's not like we could go and 

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say hey you know we know a bunch
of people spend money on this 

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kind of solution because there 
is no, there was no type of 

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solution like this before. 
And so I think it is you know, 

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really deep diving on 
authorization on and answering 

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this question is a, it's a bit 
riskier because there's not an 

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obvious market that this is sort
of functionality that cuts 

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across access management and the
players like Optic cuts across 

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Pam and the cyber arts of the 
world that cuts across IGA as 

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you pointed out in governance 
put cuts across SSPM, you know 

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SAS security posture management 
and data access governance with 

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Veronis and all these different 
things. 

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You know, authorization is 
something that's been sprinkled 

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across all these different 
security markets. 

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And no one has really before 
taken a comprehensive approach 

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and say I'm going to solve that 
problem and I'm going to go deep

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in that. 
And I think that's what really 

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makes Mesa different. 
Yeah. 

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00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:32,360
I mean, I think it makes sense 
for the company's strategies 

227
00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:37,400
where they're in one spot like 
access management and to move 

228
00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:40,120
into privilege or move into 
identity for the exactly the 

229
00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:43,000
reason you talked about, which 
is how do they take those 

230
00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:47,240
existing relationships and build
their company, right? 

231
00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:50,200
But I think what you guys have 
done is built the better 

232
00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:52,720
mousetrap, but it seems like 
your strategy is to build an 

233
00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:56,960
even better mousetrap, right? 
But it does seem like that 

234
00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:59,240
mousetrap can be leveraged in 
certain areas, right? 

235
00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:02,920
Because I think a lot of what 
you're talking about today, what

236
00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:08,000
we're talking about currently is
taking access that exists and 

237
00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:11,240
being able to analyze it. 
What if you provision only the 

238
00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:13,600
access that a person needs? 
What? 

239
00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:17,200
What are your thoughts there? 
Well you're you're you're you're

240
00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:20,120
you got a good crystal ball 
there Jim because that's that's 

241
00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:22,640
exactly actually what we we've 
been moving in And so we we've 

242
00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:25,720
thought about this in sort of a 
three stage approach from a 

243
00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:28,880
strategy and we've started with 
the first stage is kind of 

244
00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:32,280
visibility is like hey we just 
need to really understand what 

245
00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:34,720
the reality is so we can show 
people and people could start 

246
00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:38,720
using that data And then we 
moved on to OK now how do we do 

247
00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:42,920
remediation that's Step 2. 
And so now I can see but now how

248
00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:45,760
do I fix, how do I see what's 
wrong, how do I see where the 

249
00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:49,240
biggest risk, you know most 
highly damaging potentially 

250
00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:52,000
damaging instances of over 
privilege exists. 

251
00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:55,640
So I can go fix them, but then 
you go on to stage 3, which is 

252
00:12:55,680 --> 00:12:58,720
absolutely, as you point out, 
it's around control, it's around

253
00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:00,840
provisioning. 
How do I make sure I actually 

254
00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:03,240
create the right level 
permission out of the gate? 

255
00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:06,240
How do I actually create those 
accounts either on birthright 

256
00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:09,280
events, on, you know, joiner, 
mover lever types of things or 

257
00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:12,880
when someone is asking for 
access because they need 

258
00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:15,920
additional access to do their 
job, That's where the magic 

259
00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:18,440
happens. 
And then making a virtuous 

260
00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:20,600
cycle. 
Right now when you think about 

261
00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:23,800
all these, you know, this, this,
this grand access life cycle 

262
00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:27,240
when for instance, you're in 
access reviews and you're 

263
00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:29,800
saying, hey, somebody, you know,
somebody has access, they 

264
00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:31,240
shouldn't have, we should take 
that away. 

265
00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:33,600
Well, how did they get that in 
the 1st place, right. 

266
00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:36,400
Because they had to, they had to
get provisioned somebody either,

267
00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:39,840
you know, fulfilled a ticket or 
there's a birthright policy 

268
00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:42,880
that's wrong. 
And you know, just because you 

269
00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:45,920
found 11 instance of it, is that
the only instance of it? 

270
00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:48,440
Is it where there's smoke, 
there's fire or is this, you 

271
00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:50,080
know, something that's relevant 
for the whole group? 

272
00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:53,400
Is there a whole role that's 
over permissioned or you know, 

273
00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:55,920
there there's something broken? 
And sort of how do you take 

274
00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:59,960
those little instances that you 
find and rather than just 

275
00:13:59,960 --> 00:14:02,680
fixing, fixing those at a little
granular level, how do you sort 

276
00:14:02,680 --> 00:14:05,440
of take it and actually build 
intelligence into that to sort 

277
00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:08,520
of fix the overall root cause of
those processes that are that 

278
00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:09,720
are broken? 
So I want to take the 

279
00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:13,280
conversation a little away from 
theoretical and more into the 

280
00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:15,760
real world. 
I was poke it around the Beza 

281
00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:18,480
website, beza.com, there you go.
There's a plug. 

282
00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:22,000
You've got some really 
impressive logos that are kind 

283
00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:25,800
of scrolling through there and 
it makes me kind of wonder, you 

284
00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:28,680
know, beyond right, the logos 
we've got there. 

285
00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:30,920
What are there any indications 
of? 

286
00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:34,400
Are there specific types of 
challenges that Beza is best 

287
00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:36,200
suited to solve? 
Where? 

288
00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:38,400
What is that actual sweet spot 
that we've got here? 

289
00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:40,280
Yeah. 
And you'll, you'll find there's 

290
00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:41,600
a, there's a range of them, 
right. 

291
00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:45,400
And so it's, it's funny how you 
know every company's struggling 

292
00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:47,640
with something that's that's 
often a little bit different. 

293
00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:51,760
So in some cases it's around 
sort of struggling with 

294
00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:54,000
identities, right. 
And so it's not just human 

295
00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,280
identities, but often. 
One good example here is machine

296
00:14:57,280 --> 00:14:58,880
identities and service accounts,
right. 

297
00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:01,360
They might be trying to, you 
know, sort of broaden the 

298
00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:05,320
definition around governance to 
include things like that. 

299
00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:09,560
It might be instances where 
they're they're actually seeing 

300
00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:12,600
that typical role based access 
control doesn't work for them 

301
00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:14,720
right? 
That they're trying to manage by

302
00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:17,920
groups and roles. 
And you know, and this is the 

303
00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:21,600
the canonical classic example is
you've got a role that's named 

304
00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:25,440
read only and guess what they're
right privileges embedded in 

305
00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:28,040
there. 
And so you know, and what you 

306
00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:32,440
start to realize is that you're 
not really doing role based 

307
00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:36,360
access control. 
You're you're managing by names 

308
00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:38,920
of roles and descriptions of 
roles, right. 

309
00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:42,040
And so the and the reality is 
that you know, hey, what does 

310
00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:44,920
this role actually do, you know,
does does being a member of this

311
00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:48,720
role and being able to assume 
this role actually allow this 

312
00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:52,400
person to go blow away my 
customer database as an example 

313
00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:55,360
And he said, wow, I wouldn't 
want that and I hope it doesn't,

314
00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:58,760
but I don't know. 
And so this is one of the things

315
00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:02,920
that when you start to pull on 
that thread, it it's it, it 

316
00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:05,400
becomes obvious that a new 
solution is required. 

317
00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:08,280
And sort of like the way that 
different customers pull on that

318
00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:10,360
thread can vary. 
Sometimes it's an auditor that 

319
00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:12,280
sort of figures it out and 
starts asking lots of 

320
00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:14,920
uncomfortable questions. 
Sometimes it's the CISO 

321
00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:16,280
themselves. 
And you know, it's like 

322
00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:19,120
following up out of a breach 
where you know, it's only in 

323
00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:23,240
asking these really concrete 
questions and understanding how 

324
00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:27,880
limited all the existing tool 
sets are that, you know, a CSO 

325
00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:31,040
or somebody or some executive of
the company realizes that there 

326
00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:34,480
needs to be a different way. 
So I was going to ask a follow 

327
00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:38,200
up question here around, you 
know these are relatively large 

328
00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:40,360
companies, right, well known. 
I'm going to have to imagine 

329
00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:43,320
that they already have tools in 
this space for Identity and 

330
00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:45,720
access management, probably a 
number of them. 

331
00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:50,000
Which leads me to the question 
of how do you get somebody who 

332
00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:53,360
has already got tools in a space
to say, oh, hey, you know, 

333
00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:55,160
you've got this new tool, it's 
called VASA. 

334
00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:58,520
We should take a look at it and 
then actually get in to some of 

335
00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:00,720
these organizations. 
I mean, how do you establish 

336
00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:05,079
that trust, that confidence rate
and say, hey, this is something 

337
00:17:05,079 --> 00:17:07,760
that we've not been able to 
achieve with the tool sets that 

338
00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:10,160
we have and Vasa is solving for 
us. 

339
00:17:10,319 --> 00:17:12,800
This specific thing or these 
specific things, maybe there's a

340
00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:14,960
variety of them. 
How do you, how do you even get 

341
00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:17,880
into that conversation with the 
Cesos, with the other folks who 

342
00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:20,200
are making those decisions on 
their investments? 

343
00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:24,599
Yeah well the the nice thing is 
that let most Cesos are very are

344
00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:26,079
are interested in new 
technologies. 

345
00:17:26,079 --> 00:17:28,960
So you know so even if you're if
they're saying hey you know 

346
00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:31,280
maybe I'm not going to buy 
anything but they want to know 

347
00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:33,920
what's going on. 
And so that's that's always you 

348
00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:36,880
know something where you can 
especially if it's something new

349
00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:38,920
and something that they they 
haven't seen a lot of tools 

350
00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:43,960
around it's you know they they 
generally are are interested and

351
00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:46,880
and then it's sort of a question
of like hey how does this map 

352
00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:51,080
into something that's on my key 
priorities for the next year, 

353
00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:52,240
right. 
So you know when you actually 

354
00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:55,200
get down to okay like you know 
are they going to actually buy 

355
00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:57,440
the product or not. 
It has to obviously be relevant 

356
00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:00,880
for something that they care 
about and and that's one where 

357
00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:03,400
you know it, it can again it it 
varies, right. 

358
00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:07,960
And and I know one of one of our
customers we were in the in the 

359
00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:11,760
first meeting and and actually 
we're having the conversation 

360
00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:13,440
and it was sort of you know 
we're dancing around it. 

361
00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:15,040
It was kind of, you know, kind 
of interesting, but we saw 

362
00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:19,040
something written up behind him 
on his whiteboard and it was 

363
00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:20,320
just, it was just the word 
China. 

364
00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:25,560
And we said China, what's that? 
And he started describing some 

365
00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:29,640
of the problems that he was 
having with managing access to 

366
00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:32,400
box folders. 
And so it was both the problem 

367
00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:35,360
of having data from because they
they had operations 

368
00:18:35,360 --> 00:18:37,680
internationally. 
And so it was both from the 

369
00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:40,840
example of data from people in 
China. 

370
00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:43,680
So you know PII of Chinese 
nationals being accessed by 

371
00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:46,600
people outside of China and the 
reverse that there were some 

372
00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:49,720
some sensitive things that if 
you were a Chinese national you 

373
00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:53,040
shouldn't get access to and just
be able to manage that right of 

374
00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:56,800
like you know this, this 
cross-border issue with a 

375
00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:59,520
particular place where they had 
a lot of data that was important

376
00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:01,840
to them. 
And so it was you know and so 

377
00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:04,360
that turned out to be a key use 
case for them. 

378
00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:08,000
And so again you know when you 
when you talk to all these 

379
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:09,280
different customers, it can 
vary. 

380
00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:12,440
Sometimes it's GitHub, sometimes
it's Salesforce, sometimes it's 

381
00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:16,360
Snowflake, sometimes it's AWS, 
Azure, GCP, sometimes it's 

382
00:19:16,360 --> 00:19:19,760
custom applications. 
And this is this is 1 where that

383
00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:24,080
that was true for our very first
customer and they they were 

384
00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:27,080
trying to do it because they had
built a on top of their SAS 

385
00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:30,320
platform, a help desk 
application, right so custom 

386
00:19:30,360 --> 00:19:32,960
custom app. 
But for all the people who were 

387
00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:36,720
helping their customers resolve 
tickets, right and resolve 

388
00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:41,040
issues and you know help desk 
folks are you know there are a 

389
00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:42,480
lot of them. 
They have a fairly high tune 

390
00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:44,720
over. 
They're not always the highest 

391
00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:46,440
paid and highest level. 
You know you got a lot of 

392
00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:51,600
analyst level people and this 
Cesar wasn't sure what the help 

393
00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:54,640
desk people had had access to. 
When you know when they're able 

394
00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:58,320
to actually you know get into a 
customer tenant and and and get 

395
00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:01,760
a pretty deep access, that was 
the number one thing that they 

396
00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:04,000
were concerned about. 
So it really varies from 

397
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:07,160
customer to customer sort of. 
You know what the area is that's

398
00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:11,160
most important, but so much of 
it result revolves around that 

399
00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:13,600
core theme that we've been 
talking about, who, who has 

400
00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:16,440
access to what, and should they 
have that access? 

401
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,320
So Rich, you've been doing a lot
of videos lately, and I saw 

402
00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:25,320
video on LinkedIn with you and 
your founder and CEO Tarun 

403
00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:27,040
Thakur. 
So hi Tarun. 

404
00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:30,760
And he said something. 
I'm going to quote him here, 

405
00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:36,160
knowing who can take action on 
what data is the biggest 

406
00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:38,680
identity challenge. 
So I wanted to break that down a

407
00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:45,240
little bit because I think when 
we talk identity, it's not 

408
00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:49,520
always brought back to the data 
that you're protecting the data 

409
00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:53,880
and and knowing who has access 
to what data is being important.

410
00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:57,120
So why is Why use the term data?
Why? 

411
00:20:57,120 --> 00:20:59,120
Why is that the important 
differentiator? 

412
00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:02,440
Yeah. 
For us it really comes down to 

413
00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:06,040
the overall priorities of an 
organization. 

414
00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:08,200
And when you think about, you 
know, everybody talks in 

415
00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:12,080
security by the crown jewels 
that more the most frequent 

416
00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:14,920
thing there is the data are the 
crown jewels. 

417
00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:17,120
Like why are you protecting it? 
It's not really because you need

418
00:21:17,120 --> 00:21:18,640
to protect the servers. 
It's not because the 

419
00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:20,880
infrastructure is that valuable 
because it's all dynamic, right.

420
00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:24,600
It's all in the cloud. 
Like I don't really care that my

421
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,560
infrastructure is protected 
except that I need to protect 

422
00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:29,440
the data that's running on that 
infrastructure, right. 

423
00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:32,280
That tends to be the number one 
thing and obviously there are 

424
00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:35,680
there are exceptions to that but
when you go and have the board 

425
00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:39,600
level conversation when you're 
talking to the CSO that that has

426
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:44,040
been a strongly resonant theme 
is that I want to protect my 

427
00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:46,680
data why are we doing all this 
why am I doing security at all. 

428
00:21:47,120 --> 00:21:51,160
And and that that's the the been
the piece that comes out is is 

429
00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:53,800
most strongly and and something 
that you know that gets board 

430
00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,720
level attention that you know 
every and everybody knows if you

431
00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:01,400
if you have a breach around the 
data that you know that makes 

432
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:03,720
the paper right that's that 
that's the thing that really 

433
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:05,800
gets gets nailed. 
So it's it's really around that 

434
00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:08,960
resonance of being able to 
connect it to a real business 

435
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:10,680
goal that everybody understands.
Yeah. 

436
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:14,320
And I know your role, you're not
the the frontline like cold 

437
00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:18,560
calling people. 
We might run into this objection

438
00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:22,920
which is well we do our back so 
we don't, we don't need this, 

439
00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:27,880
right. 
I think this kind of discussion 

440
00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:33,400
really goes to OK level beyond 
our back towards a more data 

441
00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:37,680
centric approach, right. 
Do you see that like is like 

442
00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:42,280
people think RBAC is at the 
right level of managing? 

443
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:47,440
Security, I think most everybody
does RBAC, but when you point 

444
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,280
out some of these natural flaws,
and I think one of the one of my

445
00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:53,760
favourites to talk about this 
with is with reference to access

446
00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:55,640
reviews because everybody's sort
of gone through it. 

447
00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:59,160
If you're a manager, you, you 
know, at any companies of size, 

448
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,280
you've done an access review. 
And so you've gone through and 

449
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:04,440
done all these things where you 
said, hey, this is, you know, 

450
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:07,480
you know, here's Fred, he's on 
my team and here's all the stuff

451
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,080
that Fred has access to. 
And is that right? 

452
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,800
And I asked this question again.
You know, I remember back to, 

453
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:15,960
you know, one of the one of the 
Csos or one of my organization. 

454
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,560
I said, you know, I said, hey, 
how, what's your experience with

455
00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:20,360
that? 
Like, you know, is that a good 

456
00:23:20,360 --> 00:23:23,120
experience for you? 
And he said, yeah, half the time

457
00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:24,400
I don't know what I'm clicking 
yes to. 

458
00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:28,640
And I like that is a very, 
that's an extremely common 

459
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:33,320
experience is that people are 
saying yes, but it's kind of 

460
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:36,440
meaningless. 
It's this whole idea of, you 

461
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:39,280
know, compliance theatre or 
security theatre, right. 

462
00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:41,240
People are going through the 
motions because you have to, 

463
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:42,960
right? 
You've got to have access 

464
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,160
reviews, that's you've got to 
check that box. 

465
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:50,760
But wouldn't it be great if you 
could actually do that and and 

466
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:54,080
do that compliance process, 
spend the time, ask everybody 

467
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:57,640
who's managing to spend the time
and actually improve your 

468
00:23:57,640 --> 00:23:59,080
security posture at the same 
time? 

469
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:01,600
Wouldn't that be great? 
Is that too much to ask? 

470
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,920
And we don't think it is, in 
that you can actually do these 

471
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,640
all you know that that's the 
real reason you're doing access 

472
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,680
reviews is you want to restrict 
access. 

473
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,240
You want to make sure that only 
the people who need it are 

474
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,800
getting access. 
And if you don't give people the

475
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:20,240
right information about what 
that really means, you're asking

476
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:24,120
them to do an impossible job. 
And this, this is the thing that

477
00:24:24,120 --> 00:24:27,040
I think is so fundamentally 
broken with most of these 

478
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,280
processes is people doing these 
things that they know don't 

479
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,080
really help, and there's a 
better way. 

480
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:35,720
Let's talk about the the 
principle of least privilege, 

481
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:41,000
because I kind of feel like 
least privilege and RBAC pull it

482
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,400
opposite ends of the of the 
string you've got. 

483
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:49,520
RBAC where it's saying we need 
to establish these roles is 

484
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:56,240
going to give certain levels of 
application level access. 

485
00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,160
But when you're talking about an
enterprise, I mean think of how 

486
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,840
many systems and how many roles 
within those systems that you 

487
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,720
have to manage amongst 
potentially hundreds of 

488
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:10,440
thousands of of your workforce. 
Now if you were to do true least

489
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:15,680
privilege to every one of those 
systems and to the data, doesn't

490
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:19,080
it become unmanageable? 
Absolutely right. 

491
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,520
So the way I would look at it 
is, I don't know if I'd say 

492
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,920
they're at polar opposite ends 
of the spectrum, but I think 

493
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:27,440
that you know least privilege 
everybody agrees with in 

494
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:29,280
principle. 
Like I've never heard anybody 

495
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:31,800
say Nah, I don't believe in 
least privilege like it's it's 

496
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,440
you know everybody agrees it's 
the right idea. 

497
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:36,600
It's really a question of how do
you implement it. 

498
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:40,600
And so RBAC is sort of is the 
way I see is like most every 

499
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:44,880
organization at some level has 
implements RBAC as a practical 

500
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,840
way to get to least privilege. 
But even within that, the 

501
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:52,040
challenge is how do I get the 
right roles, how do I even 

502
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,080
assign the right roles. 
And so I'll I'll give another 

503
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:56,760
example here. 
One of our customers actually 

504
00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:00,760
uses VASA as a provisioning 
intelligence tool. 

505
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,320
What I mean by that is what they
have is that they have a process

506
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:07,560
around Snowflake. 
And so when a developer who's 

507
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,200
doing their developer job needs 
access to something in 

508
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,080
Snowflake, maybe a table in 
Snowflake, and they submit a 

509
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:17,480
ticket and they ask, hey, I want
to get the access to this. 

510
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:21,320
So the challenge this 
organization had before Vasa was

511
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:23,480
they had all these rules in 
Snowflake and they didn't know 

512
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,320
which rule to provision. 
Because that's the question is 

513
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:29,600
like, how do you know what rule 
best conforms to least 

514
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:31,920
privilege, the role that gives 
them access to that table that 

515
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,160
they need and as little else as 
possible? 

516
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:38,520
That's an incredibly hard thing 
to answer, right, because 

517
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,720
there's no tool could actually 
see what does this role do in 

518
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:44,840
Snowflake, really what does this
give access to? 

519
00:26:45,360 --> 00:26:48,080
And so by using Vasa, they 
actually were able to implement 

520
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,600
that. 
So simply saying, hey, now I 

521
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:54,240
know what role to give, right. 
And by doing that, they and they

522
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,040
and they actually measured this.
So they have, they had an 

523
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:59,280
internal process where they were
actually looking at the total 

524
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:03,080
exposure and the total risk from
all the different permissions on

525
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,880
Snowflake. 
When they introduced Vasa after 

526
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,240
a year of doing this process, 
they were able to reduce the 

527
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:12,120
total number of permissions, the
total risk on snowflake by 80%. 

528
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:17,160
So that's by just knowing what 
role do I grant because they had

529
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:20,280
no way to know before. 
So you know, so Vasa can 

530
00:27:20,360 --> 00:27:24,520
absolutely and almost always 
does We actually make our back 

531
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:26,720
better, right. 
It's not that we replace our 

532
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,960
back and this is also one of the
themes about how we work in 

533
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:34,080
general is that we really, I 
think I've done a nice job of 

534
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:35,360
meeting customers where they 
are. 

535
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,240
We don't force you to go take a 
different architecture. 

536
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:42,080
We're leveraging all the 
existing authorization schemes 

537
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:44,480
in the native systems that 
you're already using. 

538
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,480
But we actually tell you what it
means and help you fix what's 

539
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:49,680
broken. 
OK, Rich, so help me out here. 

540
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:56,640
Does Visa tell me what a person 
has or on the other end of the 

541
00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:00,280
spectrum, who can do some action
on my data? 

542
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:02,880
Which one? 
You can go both directions 

543
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,080
right? 
So so this is this is the beauty

544
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:09,120
of having a graph is you can 
start from you know for us the 

545
00:28:09,120 --> 00:28:10,640
person is on the left side of 
the graph. 

546
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:14,440
And by person I mean might be a 
real person or might be a 

547
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,080
service account. 
But then I can traverse through 

548
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:21,600
and say all right this person is
linked to a group and that group

549
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,760
might be a nested group that 
then connects to a role. 

550
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:28,720
That role might be hierarchical 
then that goes into maybe I'm 

551
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:32,960
going to go through a bunch of 
different policies in in IAM, 

552
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,120
but then all the eventually I'm 
going to get all the way down to

553
00:28:36,360 --> 00:28:41,400
a resource in that target system
and an action that can be taken 

554
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:42,560
on that target system in the 
end. 

555
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,800
So one of the big innovations as
well that we've also built in 

556
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:49,080
here is this idea of effective 
permissions in that we do a 

557
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:51,280
translation. 
And so we don't just give you 

558
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:55,160
the raw permissions that are in 
the system because often times 

559
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:57,320
it's very hard to understand 
what those things mean. 

560
00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:59,920
But we'll actually say, hey, 
does this mean you can create, 

561
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:04,240
read, update or delete the 
language of CRUD, right. 

562
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:08,320
And so you can do that on this 
object and of course you and 

563
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:09,800
then you can go the other way as
well. 

564
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:11,400
And that's one of the beautiful 
things about the graph. 

565
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,720
You can say, hey, my customer 
database, a resource in this 

566
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:20,080
system in Snowflake or you know,
Bitbucket, you know, I, I have 

567
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,040
AI have a repo in GitHub. 
I want to see everybody who has 

568
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:25,160
access to that thing, right. 
You can go the other way. 

569
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,000
And so it's a it's a very 
flexible kind of data model. 

570
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:32,080
Yeah, I think that's important 
is like you can go either way. 

571
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:34,600
And then one of the nuances I 
picked up on what you're just 

572
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:36,520
saying, you can start in the 
middle. 

573
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,640
You can start with, hey, I want 
to see what this role or this 

574
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:45,520
group does or can do. 
And I think that's important. 

575
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:50,000
You know, there's this debate in
the identity community around 

576
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:54,840
least privilege or if you just 
like take a beeline to 0 

577
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:58,040
standing privilege. 
But The thing is, like, even if 

578
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:01,520
you go to the 0 standing 
privilege route, eventually you 

579
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:05,240
have to put it on to a user. 
And if you don't really know 

580
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,520
what it does, then you're just 
like saying, all right, well, 

581
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:12,240
we're going to trust you with 
this machine gun for 15 minutes 

582
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:14,320
and hopefully you use it as 
intended. 

583
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,080
That's that's exactly right. 
Now that's that's great insight 

584
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:20,720
because that's that's always one
of the things that makes me 

585
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,560
scratch my head is like you know
0 standing privilege and doing 

586
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:25,280
just in time is great. 
I mean that's a that's an 

587
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:27,720
important aspect. 
But you're still granting 

588
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:29,320
access. 
And if you're if you're sort of 

589
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:33,360
going to you know all just in 
time privilege like you know the

590
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:37,360
number of approvals that have to
go through magnifies you know by

591
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,560
by whatever that is by whatever 
factor you want to pick. 

592
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:44,040
And then those approvals just 
get rubber stamped right. 

593
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:47,040
And so you're always have, you 
know there's always a a you know

594
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,640
sort of a balance there because 
the more approvals you do and 

595
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:52,720
and force through a sort of a 
just in time provisioning 

596
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,320
system, the less attention that 
gets paid to each of them. 

597
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,280
And so you, you always want to 
be judicious about that and say 

598
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:00,280
hey maybe there's some people 
who should never get access. 

599
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,240
I don't care who approves it. 
I don't care if their manager 

600
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:06,920
says it's OK like you know, Fred
should not be able to blow away 

601
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,480
the customer database. 
Like I don't care if somebody 

602
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:11,960
says it's OK. 
But it's Fred. 

603
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,640
Come on, I mean. 
I'm sure there's someone out 

604
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:17,960
there whose name is Fred who's 
really his. 

605
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,320
His ears are steaming right now.
He's not happy with what we're 

606
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:22,960
saying about him. 
No, I know. 

607
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:24,840
I I feel sorry. 
Just Fred things. 

608
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:26,960
I'm sorry, Fred, when you're out
there. 

609
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:34,760
There was a video that we saw 
around Intelligent Access and 

610
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:37,160
one of the things that it 
covered or one of the things I 

611
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:40,000
emphasized was covering all 
systems. 

612
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:43,040
So all right, I've got my 
skeptic cat on now because I've 

613
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:45,680
been through enough of these 
appointments where there's 

614
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:52,120
always an asterisk or something.
Is it really all systems meaning

615
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:57,840
legacy systems as well modern 
systems, SAS, non SAS? 

616
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:00,720
Help me understand what the 
coverage looks like here and 

617
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:04,440
what's what's realistic from AI 
guess from that coverage or 

618
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,800
integration perspective. 
Yep, that's a a great question 

619
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,200
and you're right to be skeptical
because that is all that that is

620
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,560
always the that is always the 
the devil's in the details and 

621
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:17,440
the reality is for some systems 
that we cover natively their 

622
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:21,600
cloud that have well formed AP 
is integration can be very, very

623
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:23,480
fast, right. 
And so you know the on the on 

624
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:27,840
that example for I know of at 
least one customer where they 

625
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,840
were able to fully deploy Vasa 
in about 30 minutes because they

626
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,440
were all cloud. 
And the SISO who happened to be 

627
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:39,080
our server customer champion 
there happened to have admin 

628
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,960
level privileges for all the 
systems that we were worried 

629
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,000
about. 
So I won't comment on that but 

630
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:47,120
that was the reality as it 
sometimes is And so he was able 

631
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:50,680
to go set up the read only roles
that's sort of one of the 

632
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,720
necessary pieces you want to you
want to make sure that BEZA has 

633
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:56,000
least privilege that we only 
have access to the stuff that we

634
00:32:56,000 --> 00:33:00,240
need to do the job and the and 
fulfil the use cases that you've

635
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,920
bought the product for. 
So it was it was very 

636
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,840
straightforward and that was and
then we're off to the races In 

637
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:10,040
other cases where for instance 
the custom application or if 

638
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:13,720
it's an on premise application 
that doesn't have good Restful 

639
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:17,160
APIs right then we've got to 
figure out a different way to 

640
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:20,480
get the data into the Vasa 
system and that can take some 

641
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,800
more work. 
And so an example here is one of

642
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:27,240
our larger customers that's 
using us for access reviews 

643
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,080
integrated in about the first, I
think it was about the first 

644
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:34,000
four months or so about 60 
different custom applications to

645
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,160
do access reviews on, right. 
And so that took some work. 

646
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:39,400
But still I would say if you've 
if you've ever gone through an 

647
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,680
IGA deployment and tried to do 
it, getting 60 custom 

648
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:47,040
applications in four months is a
pretty good clip of things. 

649
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:49,320
And so that's that's sort of the
the longer end. 

650
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:53,040
And the other thing I'll say is 
that from even on premise 

651
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,760
systems, we have a couple of 
customers that are all on Prem 

652
00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:00,680
right zero cloud. 
And so they actually that was 

653
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:03,480
actually one that was surprising
to me because I remember asking 

654
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:05,760
this I was we were at one of 
these one of our company 

655
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,000
meetings and I asked the 
questions like hey how are we, 

656
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:10,440
how are we doing on the on Prem 
is that is that real? 

657
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:12,800
Because I was, I was wondering 
myself over how it actually 

658
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,719
worked in reality And and they 
were like, yeah, we got a couple

659
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:17,480
customers that are fully, fully 
on Prem. 

660
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:21,320
And I was like that's really 
fantastic because that gives me 

661
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,520
the confidence that they can 
actually get the value out of 

662
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:26,920
Visa even though they don't have
any any cloud infrastructure at 

663
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,760
all. 
I think that's a really 

664
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:33,480
important distinction and maybe 
you know I'm not going to try 

665
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,880
and take over iveza's marketing,
but that is an area that I 

666
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:40,120
typically see a lot of struggle 
with is hey you know what on 

667
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:42,800
Prem is on Prem we're not even 
going to try it man. 

668
00:34:43,159 --> 00:34:46,679
We're going to focus on the 
cloud and SAS based applications

669
00:34:46,679 --> 00:34:50,280
and things like that because we 
know that they are having you 

670
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:53,159
know connectivity, they've got 
integrations, right. 

671
00:34:53,159 --> 00:34:56,520
All the stuff's there. 
But you know I guess maybe 

672
00:34:56,520 --> 00:35:00,520
something to think about to go 
to market is hey what is you 

673
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:03,240
know we can handle the on Prem 
stuff too which I think is such 

674
00:35:03,240 --> 00:35:06,720
a missing link for a lot of 
things in this space. 

675
00:35:06,720 --> 00:35:09,960
So I'm happy to hear it. 
What I'm not happy to hear about

676
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,240
is 30 minutes to install 
something, get things 

677
00:35:12,240 --> 00:35:14,440
configured. 
It's going to put people like me

678
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:16,160
out of a job for integrating 
IGA. 

679
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:20,400
But I think that's that's 
another thing too, right, is how

680
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:22,880
quickly you can get in there. 
Now 30 minutes I think you 

681
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,800
mentioned was a Seeso who had 
admin access to things which, 

682
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:27,920
you know, say what you want 
about Seeso's. 

683
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:29,760
A lot of them do like to have 
their hands in the pie. 

684
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,480
What is a normal, I guess, 
integration timeline look like? 

685
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,880
Is it days, weeks, months? 
I mean, it can't really be 30 

686
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:40,280
minutes all the time, but what's
a what's an average deployment 

687
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:42,320
look like? 
Yeah, I'd say you know on 

688
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,080
average you know it's going to 
be in the term of weeks and 

689
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:50,000
that's also because you know 
usually what happens is and and 

690
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,280
we certainly encourage this is 
the, you know the the key to 

691
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:55,080
success is to start start small.
So start with start with your 

692
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:58,440
cloud, start with something easy
and get some wins right that and

693
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:01,360
that's always the thing to you 
know to actually build momentum 

694
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,040
to build knowledge with the 
system and understanding with 

695
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:06,400
the system. 
So you know it, it sort of, you 

696
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:08,720
know, it depends how where you 
draw your boundaries and where 

697
00:36:08,720 --> 00:36:11,280
you draw your lines. 
But you know, usually customers 

698
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:15,200
will start with something in the
cloud, get it going quickly, get

699
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:16,840
some wins and then they're off 
to the races. 

700
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:20,040
So from from a from a deployment
in you know in you know a week 

701
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,680
or two, that's not unreasonable 
'cause that's your approach. 

702
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:25,840
But if your if your goal post is
you know got 1000 on Prem 

703
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:30,280
applications that are fully 
customized and on mainframes and

704
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,440
AS4 hundreds that will that will
take longer. 

705
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,800
AS400 green screens, They're 
giving me a flashback. 

706
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:42,280
So it's of our prior life. 
The other thing that I thought 

707
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:45,080
was interesting was this idea of
covering all identities. 

708
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:50,040
So I'm guessing that means human
and non human machines, service 

709
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:52,720
counts etcetera. 
I guess how do you, how do you 

710
00:36:52,720 --> 00:36:57,080
make sure that you've got all 
the identities, types I guess 

711
00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:59,800
covered and making sure you've 
got the right correlations in 

712
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:03,760
place to say, Oh yeah, this is 
Jeff and not AI version of Jeff 

713
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:06,600
or some machine or service 
account that Jeff is using to 

714
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:08,720
run an application. 
Can you walk us through a little

715
00:37:08,720 --> 00:37:10,680
bit about how that works? 
Yeah. 

716
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:13,520
And I think it's it's really 
that you know, I think I and I 

717
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:16,280
think the thing I'd like to to 
really emphasize here is that 

718
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:20,160
the, the thing that I've seen 
that is pretty different is also

719
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:22,040
just the way that service 
accounts have been treated, 

720
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:23,560
right. 
And that and that you know 

721
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:26,440
obviously there's there are you 
know solutions out there that 

722
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:29,440
will go after service accounts. 
But typically the world of 

723
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:33,720
identity has sort of hasn't 
really treated those as sort of 

724
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,320
you know, full partners if you 
will, where you know like you 

725
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,000
know typically the, you know the
service account types of 

726
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,840
processes have been around the 
Pam world, right. 

727
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:45,040
It's been in like Yep, you want 
to get your, you know your 

728
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:48,320
secrets and your certificates 
into the into the secrets vault.

729
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:51,960
Yep, that's great. 
But in terms of doing things 

730
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:55,000
like governance around service 
accounts over like, hey, you 

731
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:57,360
know, I want to do an accessory 
not around people but around 

732
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,760
like hey, you know, do we know 
what this, what applications the

733
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:04,080
service account is actually 
attaching to and is it right. 

734
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,600
And has the person who developed
a service account and created 

735
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,120
the service account, do they 
still work at the company and 

736
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:12,040
you know, who who owns the 
service account? 

737
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:16,000
Those are the kinds of questions
that we typically see are 

738
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:18,280
missing. 
And that's actually one of the 

739
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:20,800
things that I think has been 
most attractive with some of 

740
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:24,200
our, you know our really large 
customers especially in the 

741
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:26,960
financial services side that's 
sort of where they're headed now

742
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:29,960
where they there's you know it's
actually around this sort of 

743
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:34,000
machine identity service account
governance processes that's sort

744
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:35,760
of the forefront of that. 
Where they're saying Yep, we 

745
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:39,320
want to do the same kinds of 
things we do with human based 

746
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:42,280
HR, system based access reviews,
but we want to do it, we want to

747
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:44,880
do it on service accounts. 
And so I think that's the big, 

748
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:46,880
that's the big biggest missing 
piece. 

749
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:49,880
I say it's not necessarily the 
technology which is which is 

750
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:52,320
great and I think the technology
is an important piece of that. 

751
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:55,400
But the fact that now that most 
customers have sort of treated 

752
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:58,440
it operationally and from a 
process standpoint as something 

753
00:38:58,720 --> 00:39:01,240
outside as something not 
identity based. 

754
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:03,720
And I think that that's 
something that's pretty that we 

755
00:39:03,720 --> 00:39:06,440
see changing, which is great. 
Rich, I have to key off that 

756
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:12,000
because it, it feels like secure
or yeah, securing machine 

757
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:15,640
accounts, non human accounts, 
it's kind of like the bane of 

758
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:19,000
all of our existence these days.
They're starting to outnumber 

759
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:24,840
human accounts, if not already. 
Do you find that your customers 

760
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:26,680
are coming to you to solve that 
problem? 

761
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:28,440
Like that's the problem they 
need to solve? 

762
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:32,200
Are they starting there? 
Many, many are. 

763
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:33,680
Yep. 
And this is, this is something 

764
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,080
we were you know and it like I 
mentioned there's you know it's 

765
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,280
it's a pretty broad set of use 
cases that people key off. 

766
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:43,200
But definitely that service 
account coverage is a big deal 

767
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,600
for a a for a number of 
customers. 

768
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:48,680
And I think you know this is, 
this is one of the things I know

769
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:51,960
and if you you mentioned the the
Microsoft breach, that's 

770
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:57,080
certainly one that comes to mind
here as we start to see attacks 

771
00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:00,320
that are sort of well documented
and well publicized that focus 

772
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:04,360
around as the Microsoft one did 
a legacy Oauth application. 

773
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:08,320
Had had the ability to go get 
elevated privilege and that was 

774
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:10,560
it, you know instead of that 
Oauth app and that's that 

775
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:16,720
service account linkage was key 
to the attack factor, right, 

776
00:40:16,720 --> 00:40:18,520
that that was really the key 
part of that. 

777
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:22,840
And so when as we see more of 
those things, I think I think 

778
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:26,480
customers are going to start to 
realize how critical that piece 

779
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:29,280
is and say, yeah, we got to get 
you know our security tooling 

780
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:30,840
that covers those things as 
well. 

781
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:33,520
We can't just worry about people
as we've traditionally defined 

782
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:34,200
it. 
Now it has to. 

783
00:40:34,240 --> 00:40:37,120
We really do have to get to that
because it's it's not only is it

784
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:41,680
as you point out, Jim, it's a, 
it's a huge and more rapidly 

785
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:44,120
increasing surface area in terms
of the number of accounts, the 

786
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:48,520
number of machines there. 
But also the fact that most 

787
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:51,160
security tooling I think hasn't 
emphasized that in the same way,

788
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:56,040
especially on the Identity side.
So I just wanted to key up for 

789
00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:57,280
something else you just said 
there. 

790
00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:00,040
So you talked about that 
Microsoft breach. 

791
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,080
So you wrote a blog. 
I read the whole blog, then I 

792
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:06,720
watched the video, and then I 
realized that the whole blog was

793
00:41:06,720 --> 00:41:09,880
basically the video. 
So either read the blog if you'd

794
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:12,720
like to read or watch the video 
if you're like me and you don't 

795
00:41:12,720 --> 00:41:15,720
like to read. 
I just wanted to point out 

796
00:41:15,720 --> 00:41:18,280
something. 
So it was you and Tarun were 

797
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:23,400
talking and you guys went out of
your way to compliment 

798
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:27,000
Microsoft, right? 
Because I think that one of the 

799
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:31,080
things that they did that really
needed to be recognized was that

800
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:35,880
they came out, they were honest 
about the issue, they documented

801
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:38,320
the issue. 
You know, it wasn't the best 

802
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:40,480
look, right? 
Because I think it was 

803
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:44,400
essentially something that 
didn't have MFA enabled, right? 

804
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:47,600
But rather than try and sweep it
under the rug and wait till 

805
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:51,360
somebody finds out and try to 
ignore the issue, they were 

806
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:53,560
proactive. 
Absolutely. 

807
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:56,880
I I still give them props 
because it's like those things 

808
00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:59,320
are so valuable for certainly 
for me. 

809
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:00,920
But I think it's. 
I think it's true for the entire

810
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:04,640
community to really understand 
what went on and you know, and 

811
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:10,240
this is the same same deal. 
You know and maybe, you know, I 

812
00:42:10,240 --> 00:42:13,160
don't know if I'd give Okta 
quite as many props in terms of 

813
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:14,880
their transparency over the last
stuff. 

814
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:17,200
But you know they the 
information has gotten out there

815
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:21,200
and and it's it's eventually 
gotten there around the role 

816
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:24,040
that inbound federation played 
in The MGM breach. 

817
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:26,480
You know that. 
But but again that when I 

818
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:30,080
compare sort of the outward 
response for Microsoft and Okta,

819
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:33,080
you know, that's that's why I 
sort of do give Microsoft props 

820
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:35,760
because they were, you know, 
they were very forthcoming, had 

821
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:38,160
a lot of really good detail. 
It was like, wow, this is, you 

822
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:40,320
know, I really understand how 
this thing worked, you know, 

823
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:43,400
maybe not fully fully, but you 
know, 80% of the way there I 

824
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:46,920
got, you know, it was, it was 
very useful and actionable in 

825
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:48,800
terms of sort of how that all 
went down. 

826
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:52,720
I always find it a struggle and 
a challenge to figure out when 

827
00:42:52,720 --> 00:42:54,280
do you make disclosures like 
that? 

828
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:57,800
Because I think there's a rush 
to Do you tell people right away

829
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:00,760
and not know the full story or 
do you wait so you have the full

830
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:04,440
story and then tell people and 
there's all I don't envy anybody

831
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:08,600
who has to disclose information 
like that because I think you're

832
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:10,040
really caught in a rock and a 
hard place. 

833
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:14,840
You're already in trouble cuz 
you had an incident and now it's

834
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:16,720
well, what if we release 
information too early? 

835
00:43:16,720 --> 00:43:19,440
It's not correct, right? 
Is it better to release early 

836
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:22,360
and then have to make 
corrections, or do you wait 

837
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:24,520
until you know a little bit more
what's the right balance? 

838
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:27,360
The longer you wait, people get 
suspicious and they're like, 

839
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:28,720
well, why didn't you tell us 
sooner? 

840
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:31,920
You know, it's it's a difficult 
balance and I don't envy any 

841
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:33,960
organization that that gets put 
in that position, that's for 

842
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:37,720
sure. 
Yeah, my gosh, I, I, I, I look 

843
00:43:37,720 --> 00:43:41,640
at the the Cesos that are at my 
our our customer organizations 

844
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:46,000
like that is a tough tough job 
and it is it's no joke. 

845
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:49,000
So I I agree that's really, 
really challenging. 

846
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:51,480
And it's also interesting 
because although it's not 

847
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:54,960
certified what I'd say like our 
primary use case, but it's one 

848
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:58,000
that I think is going to be a 
really interesting one for us 

849
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:01,280
for Vasa actually in the future 
is actually starting to bring to

850
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:04,600
bear this whole question of you 
know who has access to what, but

851
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:08,000
do it in the context of post 
breach investigation. 

852
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:09,920
So you know, so you know, you 
know in in the security 

853
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:12,520
operations team, 'cause this is 
one of the things that I've, 

854
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:15,040
I've definitely heard is 
obviously the gold standard is, 

855
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:16,400
you know, I want to look at the 
activity. 

856
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:18,360
I want to look, OK, you know, I 
had a breached account. 

857
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:21,560
I'm going to go check and look 
at the logs and see, you know, 

858
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:24,560
what did this account access, 
you know, after this time and, 

859
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:27,560
you know, time and date. 
But the the challenge that I've 

860
00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:31,560
heard from Csos is really that, 
hey, you know, logging is great,

861
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:35,320
but a lot of times logging isn't
turned on, right, because it's 

862
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:38,160
expensive and it's a lot of 
memory and people charge you, 

863
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:39,600
you know, left, right and Center
for it. 

864
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:41,360
And so sometimes it just never 
gets turned on. 

865
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:45,840
And sometimes when it's turned 
on, it doesn't quite give you 

866
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:48,440
the right information, right. 
It's not enough to really 

867
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:51,720
understand what went on. 
And so you end up having some 

868
00:44:51,720 --> 00:44:54,280
big gaps. 
And so you can never just rely 

869
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:57,240
on logging, you know, after an 
incident like you've got to keep

870
00:44:57,240 --> 00:44:59,800
going, You've got to dig deeper.
And so, you know, if you think 

871
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:02,200
about sort of a set of 
concentric circles, you know, 

872
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:04,760
the first one you go do is like 
look at the logging and look at 

873
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:07,240
the activity. 
But then the next you want to 

874
00:45:07,240 --> 00:45:09,080
say, well, what could this 
account have touched? 

875
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:10,840
Like what were the permissions 
for that account? 

876
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:15,160
And that's one where Vasa is 
extremely powerful and I'll I'll

877
00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:17,720
throw in one one other product 
pitch and then I'll stop. 

878
00:45:17,720 --> 00:45:21,440
But we also do leverage the 
activity monitoring as well. 

879
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:23,640
So you know, so now it's 
actually pulling both of those 

880
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:26,400
things into a single platform, 
not just the activity of who 

881
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:30,160
accessed what, but also who 
could access what and having 

882
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:32,360
those two things together I 
think is going to be a really 

883
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:36,640
powerful use case for our post 
breach forensic security 

884
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:39,280
operations in the future. 
Well, it must be rid of my mind,

885
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:41,480
'cause I was kind of thinking 
here as talking as like a tool 

886
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:44,200
like this would be really handy 
for a forensic, you know, 

887
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:47,680
investigation. 
I guess it's better to have it 

888
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:51,760
before the incident happened so 
you can capture the activity of 

889
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:54,560
what's happening. 
But even afterwards, being able 

890
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:57,240
to do that diagnosis of, OK, 
well, here's the account. 

891
00:45:57,240 --> 00:46:00,000
Now at least we know the account
that got popped or whatever 

892
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:02,160
phrase you want to use, right, 
That that, that caused the 

893
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:04,720
breach, What else could it have 
touched, I think is really 

894
00:46:04,720 --> 00:46:06,400
interesting. 
So you kind of stole my Thunder 

895
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:08,440
there. 
So pitch away that was. 

896
00:46:08,720 --> 00:46:10,440
That was where I was headed 
anyway, from a question 

897
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:11,720
standpoint. 
Nice. 

898
00:46:11,720 --> 00:46:13,040
We're we're on the same page 
here. 

899
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:15,920
That's good we are. 
So I want to wrap up a 

900
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:19,200
conversation with a lighter note
because that's how we typically 

901
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:22,560
will end our our shows. 
The last time you were here, we 

902
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:25,600
asked questions around longevity
because that was something that 

903
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:28,160
I think you know, you've got 
some interest and we talked 

904
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:30,160
about what's the most 
interesting thing you've learned

905
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:32,440
about longevity. 
If you want to know more about 

906
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:35,160
that, again go back to episode 
231. 

907
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:36,960
But I want to stay in that same 
vein, right? 

908
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:39,960
Try to stay with interests. 
This one I think is a little 

909
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:43,480
more fun, Maybe thought 
provoking and rich. 

910
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:48,520
I'll ask you first, the fountain
of youth or the wisdom of age? 

911
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:54,240
If you absolutely you could only
choose one, which would you pick

912
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:58,920
and why? 
It it is a a fantastic question 

913
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:04,600
and I think you know it depends 
on you know what we how old I am

914
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:07,240
when you when you ask this 
questions because I think one of

915
00:47:07,240 --> 00:47:10,360
the beautiful things about 
getting older has been 

916
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:12,800
appreciating the wisdom of age 
more. 

917
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:17,360
And, you know, I I also think 
about, you know, as you as I've 

918
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:22,080
gotten older, I just, I there's 
a level of comfort and 

919
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:25,920
confidence and just, you know, 
knowing who you are is just a 

920
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:28,240
wonderful thing. 
And you know, I I think about it

921
00:47:28,240 --> 00:47:30,800
because I've got two teenage 
boys and just, you know, the 

922
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:33,400
challenges of being a teenager 
and thinking that everybody is 

923
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:36,760
staring at you. 
It's like it's so mentally 

924
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:37,840
traumatizing. 
It's tough. 

925
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:39,480
Being a teenager was really 
rough. 

926
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:42,680
And you know, as you get older, 
you just start to care less and 

927
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:46,320
less and and This is why you see
so many old guys walking around 

928
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:48,400
with Plaid pants is they just 
stop caring. 

929
00:47:48,720 --> 00:47:50,920
And there's a there's a beauty 
to that that I've really 

930
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:52,800
appreciated. 
So I don't have my Plaid pants 

931
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:57,360
yet, but I aspire to that. 
So Plaid Pants is how we know 

932
00:47:57,360 --> 00:47:59,960
that you've picked the the the 
wisdom of age. 

933
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:00,960
That's. 
Right. 

934
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:02,880
That's when. 
That's when you know I'm on, I'm

935
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:05,640
on the, the, the, I've, I've 
reached the, the, the final 

936
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:09,880
stage of development. 
Jim, how about yourself, Which 

937
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:12,000
one do you pick? 
Fountain of Youth or Wisdom of 

938
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:16,080
Age and. 
I I don't think anybody could 

939
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:18,600
have said better than Rich right
there. 

940
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:21,840
I mean, seriously, like every 
thought I was having on this 

941
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:27,440
topic, you just hit all of them.
And I actually feel like I'm 

942
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:30,960
happier now at 50 than I was at 
40. 

943
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:34,200
And I remember having the 
thought I'm happier now at 40 

944
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:36,800
than I was at 30. 
And I'll bet you it goes all the

945
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:39,880
way back. 
And I have two teenage boys as 

946
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:43,080
well. 
I've got a 19 year old who I 

947
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:47,320
love him to death, right? 
It's like he's working a job, 

948
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:51,960
like manual labor and making 
like under 20 bucks an hour and 

949
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:55,520
he's talking about going and 
buying like a $40,000 truck. 

950
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:59,120
And it's like as a 50 year old, 
you just look at that and you're

951
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:02,840
just like, my goodness, kid, 
what are you thinking about? 

952
00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:06,600
You have zero debt right now and
it's like he can't wait to get 

953
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:08,880
into debt. 
And what he doesn't realize is 

954
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:11,560
once you get into debt, you're 
in debt for the rest of your 

955
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:14,680
life. 
Because like, yeah, you know, 

956
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:17,400
you're just, you're always 
running credit cards, you get 

957
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:19,480
ahead financially and all that, 
right? 

958
00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:22,440
It's not like you're living 
paycheck to paycheck your whole 

959
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:25,000
life, but you've always got 
payments, right? 

960
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:28,760
Most people, most of us, all 
have a mortgage and maybe a car 

961
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:32,920
payment, etcetera. 
What would be ideal? 

962
00:49:33,240 --> 00:49:37,400
I know this is cheating with 
this question would be youth, 

963
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:42,720
physical youth, but also keeping
your your wisdom. 

964
00:49:44,240 --> 00:49:47,920
No, I mean that's that's 
absolutely, 100% cheap. 

965
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:49,360
I mean, that's what everyone 
wants, right? 

966
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:53,240
I mean, there's there's TV shows
that, you know, vampires live 

967
00:49:53,240 --> 00:49:56,760
forever, you got altered carbon,
which you've never seen on 

968
00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:58,880
Netflix is fantastic. 
I love it. 

969
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:01,720
Same idea there. 
I've heard that Warren Buffett 

970
00:50:01,720 --> 00:50:05,760
said that he would give up all 
of his money to be like 21 

971
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:10,160
again, so I'm not going to go. 
Does he retain the knowledge? 

972
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:12,920
That he's gained. 
Because I think it, I think, you

973
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:17,800
know, 45 to anyway, I'm only 50,
so I can't speak beyond this too

974
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:22,400
much with experience anyway. 
But I think in that range. 

975
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:25,680
I'm happy with where I'm at. 
Like, I don't like all the signs

976
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:29,560
of aging, but I'm really like 
happy with my life. 

977
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:30,920
I'm happy with the person that I
am. 

978
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:32,920
If people don't like me, I 
really don't care. 

979
00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:36,600
And I can't say that when I was 
in my 20s, like I really cared 

980
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:38,520
what people thought of me. 
What about you, Jeff? 

981
00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:43,040
You know, Rich, I I couldn't 
disagree more. 

982
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:46,640
I I wish I was still 20. 
I could almost dunk a 

983
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:48,800
basketball. 
Yes, I used to be able to. 

984
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:51,160
If you look at me now, it's like
there's no way that that dude is

985
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:52,760
getting any more than six inches
off the ground. 

986
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:56,240
No, I'm just kidding. 
I think, you know, I think you 

987
00:50:56,240 --> 00:50:58,480
hit it right on the head. 
I mean everything you just said,

988
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:01,840
same thing, you know more 
confident more comfortable with 

989
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:05,880
who I am, the knowledge that 
I've gained, you know Now if I 

990
00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:08,080
could pause time, I think that 
would be great. 

991
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:11,200
I'm I'm, I, I think Jim you hit 
as well too. 

992
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:13,840
Like I'm happier now than I was 
five years ago, 10 years ago, 

993
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:15,840
etcetera. 
And I had some great times. 

994
00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:17,440
Look, I feel like I've LED a 
great life. 

995
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:20,200
I've had a lot of experiences, a
lot of fun fun stuff that I've 

996
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:22,320
done very fortunate in that 
regard. 

997
00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:26,440
But yeah, I don't think I would 
trade youth for the wisdom 

998
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:28,240
that's been accumulated over the
years. 

999
00:51:28,240 --> 00:51:31,000
So I feel like we're all, I 
don't know, maybe this is an old

1000
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:34,160
hat question. 
If you ask a younger person if 

1001
00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:36,840
they would ask, you know, answer
it the same way but it feels 

1002
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:38,640
like we're all on the same page 
except I'm not going to wear the

1003
00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:40,440
Plaid pants. 
I would still feel too 

1004
00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:44,000
self-conscious about that. 
I felt like a real nerd wearing 

1005
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:47,440
my Apple Vision Pro on a flight 
last week. 

1006
00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:51,080
And I did return it by the way, 
but that that experiment is 

1007
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:53,320
over. 
But I have not felt that 

1008
00:51:53,320 --> 00:51:56,440
self-conscious in a very long 
time putting that thing on. 

1009
00:51:56,440 --> 00:51:58,280
I'm like, I know I'm going to 
return this, but I got to try it

1010
00:51:58,280 --> 00:52:01,800
out, see what's like. 
And yeah, you you totally, you 

1011
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:04,400
totally hit that question on the
on on the head for me as well. 

1012
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:07,400
Awesome awesome. 
Well the the you know just as as

1013
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:09,480
we as we leave with parting 
thoughts. 

1014
00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:12,400
I think Jim I think if you if 
you convinced your your 19 year 

1015
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:16,840
old son you know the really the 
the beauty and and and all the 

1016
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:19,600
the benefits of a 15 year old 
minivan. 

1017
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:22,160
I can I can hook you up here 
I've got something. 

1018
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:25,720
But if he's got a Mustang, I 
handed him down my. 

1019
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:30,800
My old might be a bit like. 
Frazee Mustang and not good 

1020
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:32,120
enough. 
He's a. 

1021
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:33,720
Senior Mustang. 
It's a nice car too. 

1022
00:52:33,720 --> 00:52:37,080
I mean, I wish I'll tell you 
what I had a the the cheapest 

1023
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:39,360
Chevrolet car that you could 
possibly have. 

1024
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:42,520
It only had three cylinders in 
it for an engine and I was 

1025
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:45,280
thrilled to have it so. 
What? 

1026
00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:46,040
What Car was that? 
A. 

1027
00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:48,360
Mustang is good. 
Well, I'm not going to tell you 

1028
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:49,840
because that's a secret 
question, man. 

1029
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:50,640
But you'll have to. 
Type. 

1030
00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:52,720
Guess it. 
I love it. 

1031
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:55,240
Yeah. 
So I mean it's not going to be 

1032
00:52:55,240 --> 00:52:57,040
hard that hard to guess and I 
think I've changed all those 

1033
00:52:57,040 --> 00:52:59,120
answers anyway. 
But if you Google three 

1034
00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:03,200
cylinder, it would have been my 
guess mid to late 90s. 

1035
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:05,200
Was it a Yugo? 
Did you have a Yugo? 

1036
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:07,400
No, it was a Chevy. 
Oh. 

1037
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:09,760
OK, it was a Chevrolet brand, 
let's put it that way. 

1038
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:12,160
So there's the the trivia for 
folks. 

1039
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:14,240
Did you have to crank it up 
before you drove it? 

1040
00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:18,680
Look, I've heard you. 
You can't make fun of me because

1041
00:53:18,680 --> 00:53:21,560
I've heard every single joke. 
Nothing that you're going to say

1042
00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:23,760
I've not heard before about that
car. 

1043
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:25,200
But you know what? 
It was my car. 

1044
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:27,600
It gave me freedom. 
I could get wherever I wanted. 

1045
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:30,800
Jeff, Jeff, this this car is 
your these are your Plaid pants 

1046
00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:33,400
right here. 
That was my Plaid pants. 

1047
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:35,960
I'm glad I outgrew it. 
Now I'm very happy in my 

1048
00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:38,680
electric vehicle. 
And yeah, life moves on. 

1049
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:40,960
Let's go ahead and leave it 
there. 

1050
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:43,360
That was a whole lot of fun. 
Rich, thank you so much for 

1051
00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:45,920
coming back with us and having a
conversation. 

1052
00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:48,880
I hope folks will go out and 
check out beza.com beza and 

1053
00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:52,160
really check out what you guys 
are doing. 

1054
00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:53,920
I think you guys are doing some 
really remarkable stuff. 

1055
00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:57,320
And I think there's a lot of 
applications that, you know, at 

1056
00:53:57,320 --> 00:53:59,640
first glance, me, it was like, 
oh, OK, it's this. 

1057
00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:01,040
I was like, oh, wait, there's so
much more. 

1058
00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:03,800
We'll have links in our show 
notes for people to check out. 

1059
00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:06,200
Want to connect with you, Rich? 
Ask you questions? 

1060
00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:11,160
Argue with you politely about 
Fountain of youth versus, you 

1061
00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:13,040
know, wisdom and age and things 
like that. 

1062
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:16,640
We'll also have links to Vasa's 
website as well, so you can 

1063
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:19,040
check them out. 
And yeah, we'll go ahead and 

1064
00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:21,360
leave it there for this week. 
Thank you again so much, Rich, 

1065
00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:23,640
for taking the time with us. 
Jim, as always, thanks for your 

1066
00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:25,480
time and thanks for everyone for
listening. 

1067
00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:28,960
You can find us on the web, 
idacpodcast.com or on Twitter or

1068
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:31,920
X or whatever it's called by the
time you listen to this at IDAC 

1069
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:34,520
podcast and we'll leave it 
there. 

1070
00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:36,560
Thanks everyone. 
And we'll talk with everyone in 

1071
00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:38,320
the next one. 
Thanks much. 

1072
00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:42,320
You've been listening to 
Identity at the Center. 

1073
00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:46,760
We hope you've enjoyed the show.
Make sure to like, rate and 

1074
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:50,400
review and we'll be back soon. 
But in the meantime, hit the 

1075
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:54,520
website at 
identity@thecenter.com and find 

1076
00:54:54,520 --> 00:55:01,960
us on Twitter at IDAC Podcast. 
See you next time on Identity at

1077
00:55:01,960 --> 00:55:02,920
the Center.