1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,720 Oh my God. The identity at center. 2 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:07,120 Podcast is, is now the official podcast of ID Pro. 3 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:09,520 I mean, there's some enthusiasm here because I'm extremely 4 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:12,880 excited about this identity. At and we are too, so don't let 5 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:15,840 my smooth, calm, collected voice, you know, be that. 6 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:20,280 But yes, it is super exciting. Yeah, Calm and collected is not 7 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:24,840 so much my thing, but no, it it came about at a really good time 8 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:28,360 because ID Pro had been doing the ID Pro show, which is was a 9 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:32,320 series of videos we did about, I want to say about two dozen of 10 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:36,560 them, where we would interview ID Pro members just to learn 11 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:39,240 about how other people kind of like the first question you 12 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:42,200 start with in the Identity of the Center podcast, starting 13 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:44,680 with the well, how did you end up here? 14 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:46,280 You know what got you into identity? 15 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:50,120 And just the range of information just coming out of 16 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:53,840 that was brilliant. There wasn't a single one who 17 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:56,080 said, no, no, this is exactly what I intended in my career 18 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:58,800 debate. So, but that was coming to an 19 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:01,280 end. As you both can attest, putting 20 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:04,599 these together is time consuming and can be kind of expensive. 21 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:07,760 And so we were, we were just wrapping it up. 22 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:09,920 I have one more that I need to get posted. 23 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:12,120 And as soon as I'm somewhere where I can actually download 24 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:15,800 and post that, I will. But as we're wrapping this up, 25 00:01:16,320 --> 00:01:19,160 Jim reached out to me and said, hey, what do you think of this 26 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:22,520 idea of making Identity at the Centre the essential podcast of 27 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:25,120 IT Pro? And I'm like, yes, yes, yes, 28 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:27,840 this is great. And I said, sure, that sounds 29 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:28,960 like a lovely idea. Thank you. 30 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:40,200 This is identity at the centre if it has anything to do with 31 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:46,200 IAM. This is the go to podcast now 32 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:50,360 your host Jim McDonald and Jeff Stedman. 33 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:55,800 Welcome to the Identity at the Center podcast. 34 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:57,200 I'm Jeff, and that's Jim. Hey, Jim. 35 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:00,320 Hey, Jeff, how are you? Oh, not so bad yourself. 36 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:03,960 I'm good man, it's spring actually I had my lawn mowed 37 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:06,880 today for the first time in like 6 months. 38 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:10,880 I mean, it happened about an hour ago, so imagine that time 39 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:14,240 and got lucky that it wasn't during the episode, because I'm 40 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:17,240 sure you wouldn't be happy with all that noise in the 41 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:18,840 background. But I've got to say, I'm not 42 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:21,160 real happy with your camera. What the heck's going on? 43 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:25,120 Yeah, I'm not happy either. 45 minutes before Showtime, my 44 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:28,840 normal Sony camera decided that it wouldn't want to stay on 45 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:30,880 anymore and kept overheating. So I think there's probably a 46 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:33,320 new camera in line. This is the second time that 47 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:36,080 I've tried to fix this this week, but yeah, so I'm slumming 48 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:39,040 it amongst the peasants on a webcam today, so we'll just have 49 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:41,800 to kind of deal with it. I know we're usually used to 50 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:45,320 crystal clear Jeff and we had AI Jeff for a while. 51 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:47,800 Now it's just normal Jeff. Peasant Jeff. 52 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:50,120 That I'm I'm just Jeff, that's all I can do. 53 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:53,960 You know, maybe I could do some things in post production to fix 54 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:57,040 colors or do something. I don't know, but we'll see. 55 00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:00,360 Look, it's camera. Let's hope the content is better 56 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:02,200 than the camera this week. Yeah. 57 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:07,400 So I mean, it's spring. It's time for, you know, getting 58 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:11,520 outside, enjoying the fresh air, not checking your retirement 59 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:14,600 balance because that's probably not so good. 60 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:19,040 And it's just time to kind of get ready for summer. 61 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:22,600 Yeah, yeah. Let's just leave it at that. 62 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:27,320 Let's maybe talk conferences, identity beers, like where do 63 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:29,040 you want to start, Jim? Yeah, well, that's where I was 64 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:31,320 leaving things was, you know, summer to me. 65 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:36,520 It's conference season. Sebastian Rohr posted on He sold 66 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:39,520 me out on LinkedIn. He said, you know, you really 67 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:42,000 the reason you're going to Europe is to hit as many 68 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:44,040 identity beers as you possibly can. 69 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:47,200 There's a little more to it than that, you know, but there's 70 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:48,160 nothing. Wrong with that. 71 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:49,720 Come on. I mean, that's a totally 72 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:52,960 legitimate reason. I I appreciate that, Jeff. 73 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:55,080 I totally agree. I mean, you know, getting out 74 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:57,400 there, meeting people, enjoying a beer, Why not? 75 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:00,360 Yeah, I mean, we got a great community. 76 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:02,840 Take advantage of it. I mean, the Identibier thing is 77 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:04,560 pretty cool. I think we're going to try to 78 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:06,960 hit one in Berlin, I think the day before EIC. 79 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:10,800 And we were talking in the Slack channel and our friend Espen 80 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:15,160 sent me a link to Martin Sandrin's Identibier tracker on 81 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:16,880 GitHub. So for people who are interested 82 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:18,640 in that sort of thing, Martin's done a great job of kind of 83 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:22,280 collecting that information. And then I'll put that in our 84 00:04:22,280 --> 00:04:23,840 show notes. But I know Espen's working on, I 85 00:04:23,840 --> 00:04:25,320 think there's actually a website. 86 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:27,640 So I'm not sure if it's up and running yet or if it's been 87 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:29,680 updated. But there, there is lots of 88 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:31,400 events all over the world really. 89 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:34,120 And so it's a great community. Take advantage. 90 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:37,560 Yeah, I think one of the things that has been so great about 91 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:41,520 doing this podcast with you is that we've got to meet great 92 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:45,880 people like Martin and like Espen who are really community 93 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:48,560 builders in their own right. I mean, they're out there 94 00:04:49,280 --> 00:04:52,160 putting these events together, making sure people know about 95 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:54,680 them and creating this welcoming environment. 96 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:58,240 And that's what makes I think the identity community is so 97 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:00,200 special. I don't obviously know what all 98 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:04,080 the other non identity communities are like, but I know 99 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:08,440 this one is very welcoming. And you know, as evidenced by 100 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:14,080 the episode today, we've got the president from the, I know I'm 101 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:18,520 going against the grain here by talking about our our guests for 102 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:23,720 today, but the ID Pro has been a great rally point as well for 103 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:26,800 this community. Yeah, So yeah, we're going to 104 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:30,200 get to her in a second here. But yes, and not the president 105 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:32,840 know she's going to correct it, but the executive director for 106 00:05:32,840 --> 00:05:36,240 ID Pro. But for, you know, people who 107 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:39,000 aren't familiar, we're going to have a chat with Heather here in 108 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,080 a couple minutes and really kind of get into that. 109 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:43,520 We made some waves an announcement what I one of the 110 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:45,640 most popular things that I've posted a long time on LinkedIn 111 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:48,480 got a lot of traction. So we'll talk about that in a 112 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:49,440 second. But I'm looking forward to 113 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:51,120 seeing her at a couple conferences that are you and I 114 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:54,320 are both going to be at. We're going to be at EIC in a 115 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:57,360 couple weeks, so by the time people listen this, hopefully 116 00:05:57,360 --> 00:05:58,800 they've got things booked and we'll see them there. 117 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:00,480 But that's May 6th through the 9th. 118 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:03,400 That's the European Identity and Cloud Conference. 119 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:08,120 And if you use the code ID AC25 MKO, that'll get you 25% off. 120 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:09,720 We'll have a link in our show notes so you don't have to 121 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:11,360 remember all that stuff. You can go ahead and click 122 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:12,800 there. It's also on our homepage, 123 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:15,720 idacpodcast.com. I always put our discounts right 124 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:18,520 on the the homepage there. And then after that, Jim, we're 125 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:20,320 going to be at Identiverse in Las Vegas. 126 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:24,720 That is June 3rd through the 6th and if you use the code IDV 25-I 127 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:28,920 D AC25, you get 25% off. Again, those codes will be in 128 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:31,680 our show notes. She is a world traveller. 129 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:35,120 I already know what my first question is going to be when I 130 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:37,320 introduce you here, but let's get Heather Flanagan, the 131 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:39,280 executive director for ID Pro on the show. 132 00:06:39,280 --> 00:06:41,760 She's been with us before, but although it's been a while too 133 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:45,480 long, in fact, episode 228 back in August of 2023. 134 00:06:45,840 --> 00:06:48,000 So I'm not going to ask her our traditional first question of 135 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:49,640 how'd you get an identity because we she's already 136 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:51,920 answered that. But welcome to the show, 137 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:54,000 Heather. Hello, Jeff. 138 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:55,720 Hello, Jim. It's good to see you both again. 139 00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:59,800 Well, it's great to have you here, so let me ask the the most 140 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:01,160 pertinent question top of mind for me. 141 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:03,880 Where in the world is Heather Flanagan today? 142 00:07:04,840 --> 00:07:08,240 Well, physically I'm currently in Mountain View, CA attending 143 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:12,960 the Internet Identity workshop. But that's like today. 144 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:17,040 On Monday I was at MIT for a a private workshop with some 145 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:19,080 incredibly smart people and that was an all day thing. 146 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:21,960 And last week I was at the University of Reading 147 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:27,600 facilitating an unconference for Academic Identity Federation 148 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:30,320 people. So bouncing around the world as 149 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:33,640 one does. Well, as one does, you say that 150 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:36,200 so nonchalantly, like everyone's flying coast to coast and all 151 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:39,200 around the world all the time. A little bit of a outlier there, 152 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:42,440 Heather, to be honest. All right, look, just because 153 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:44,960 the the flight attendants tell me I'm travelling more than they 154 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:47,480 do, you're you're suggesting that this is excessive? 155 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:49,560 Hey, there's nothing wrong with it. 156 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:51,040 Travel's awesome. Everybody should be able to do 157 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:52,800 it. I think maybe if you're on a 158 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,720 first name basis with flight attendants, you know, maybe 159 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:57,280 there's there's something to say about that. 160 00:07:57,280 --> 00:07:58,920 Maybe vary up your flight schedule a little bit. 161 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:01,920 But I'm a fan of travel. Get out, see the world, see 162 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:05,520 other, you know, countries, cultures, people, all that good 163 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:06,520 stuff. So I think it's great that you 164 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:08,040 get. Conference rooms in basements 165 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:10,160 with no windows? Yes, yes, I see a lot of those. 166 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:13,760 All the terrible hotel Wi-Fi that you can try to connect to. 167 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:19,640 So you know, all that stuff. So we made some waves recently, 168 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:21,440 Heather. We made an announcement. 169 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:24,000 Yeah. So for those who haven't seen or 170 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:27,480 heard or visited our web page in a little bit, Identity Center is 171 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:30,840 now the official podcast for ID Pro, which is fantastic because 172 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:34,200 Jim and I have been members for a long time and been very big 173 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:37,120 supporters of it. I guess take us behind the 174 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:39,559 scenes maybe of, you know, how did that kind of come together 175 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:41,600 or you know, we have we obviously have our version of it 176 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:44,280 was like, hey, it's probably not as complicated as people thought 177 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:47,760 it was, but but you know, I just want to get your thoughts on 178 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,880 that announcement. So it's kind of funny how you 179 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:52,720 said it. You said it in just a, a lovely, 180 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:53,880 you know, flat tone. Yes. 181 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:56,360 Identity at the Center is now the official podcast of IT Pro, 182 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:57,920 which is not at all how I say it. 183 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:01,120 How I say it when when it comes up is like, Oh my God. 184 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:05,760 The identity at center. Podcast is is now the official 185 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:08,760 podcast of ID pro. I mean, there's some enthusiasm 186 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:12,040 here because I'm extremely excited about this identity at 187 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:13,680 and. We are too, so don't let my 188 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:16,240 smooth, calm, collected voice, you know, be that. 189 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:20,720 But yes, it is super exciting. Yeah, Calm and collected is not 190 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:25,280 so much my thing, but no, it it came about at a really good time 191 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:28,800 because ID Pro had been doing the ID Pro show, which is was a 192 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:32,760 series of videos we did about, I want to say about two dozen of 193 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:37,000 them, where we would interview ID Pro members just to learn 194 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:39,680 about how other people kind of like the first question you 195 00:09:39,680 --> 00:09:42,640 start with in the Identity of the Center podcast, starting 196 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:45,120 with the well, how did you end up here? 197 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:46,720 You know what got you into identity? 198 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:50,560 And just the range of information just coming out of 199 00:09:50,560 --> 00:09:54,280 that was brilliant. There wasn't a single one who 200 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:56,480 said, no, no, this is exactly what I intended in my career 201 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,200 today. So but that was coming to an 202 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:01,720 end. As you both can attest, putting 203 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:05,040 these together is time consuming and can be kind of expensive. 204 00:10:05,560 --> 00:10:08,160 And so we were, we were just wrapping it up. 205 00:10:08,680 --> 00:10:11,040 I have one more that I need to get posted and as soon as I'm 206 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:13,600 somewhere where I can actually download and post that, I will. 207 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:17,880 But as we're wrapping this up, Jim reached out to me and said, 208 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:21,680 hey, what do you think of this idea of making Identity at the 209 00:10:21,680 --> 00:10:23,320 Center, the essential podcast of ID Pro? 210 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:26,280 And I'm like, yes, yes, yes, this is great. 211 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:28,960 And I said, sure, that sounds like a lovely idea. 212 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:32,240 Thank you. Excellent negotiator for sure. 213 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:35,560 Yeah, no, it's super cool. Like, you know, you guys had a 214 00:10:35,560 --> 00:10:37,920 great show and we're happy to support, you know, everything 215 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:40,360 that ID Pro does. And I think it's a natural 216 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:43,640 alignment for us because we try to be vendor neutral, especially 217 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:46,280 on our sort of normal episodes. Yes, we do some sponsored stuff, 218 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:49,160 but as you said, you know, running a podcast is expensive. 219 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:51,960 So we try to defray some of those costs with it. 220 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:56,040 And look, I we're such big fans of ID Pro, right? 221 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:59,560 I've been a member since I think the beginning 2017 or whatever 222 00:10:59,560 --> 00:11:01,080 it was. I think what was announced in at 223 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:04,960 the Chicago conference. I think Jim followed pretty 224 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:06,840 closely right after, I think, as he found out. 225 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:09,880 And we've been, you know, somewhat active, I think in the 226 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:12,240 Slack channel, and maybe we'll be more active now. 227 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:14,560 I've tried to be more active over the last couple weeks with 228 00:11:14,560 --> 00:11:16,960 the announcement, but it's such a good community. 229 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:20,400 It's such a good resource for really everybody in the space, 230 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:23,760 whether you're just starting out, if you're curious about 231 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:26,880 what the heck this IAM thing is, or if you've been in the space 232 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:31,240 for like decades or maybe for some people's centuries, you 233 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:33,840 know, it could be, you know, a a great resource and there's so 234 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:35,480 many different chat channels. It's not going to just talk 235 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:37,840 about identity. Like I think I see something in 236 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:41,280 the Ideniverse conference channel talk about people going 237 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:45,240 to see the John Wick experience at Area 15, which like I'm all 238 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:46,600 in for that. Like that sounds awesome. 239 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:47,920 Area 15 is very cool, by the way. 240 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:49,960 If nobody's ever been there, definitely check it out. 241 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:52,000 But there's such a good community. 242 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,440 And, and, and I keep coming back to this word of community 243 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:58,560 because it is that this is not secret sauce for a lot of 244 00:11:58,560 --> 00:12:02,040 people. We're all in this typically, 245 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:05,880 right, to protect our users, you know, reduce risk, make things 246 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:07,680 easier for folks, right? All that kind of things. 247 00:12:07,680 --> 00:12:09,800 And yes, there's vendors and stuff like that who have 248 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:12,280 products in that space. But generally speaking, most of 249 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:13,960 us are like, yeah, that's a great idea. 250 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:17,440 We should do that too. And you know, all these really 251 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:19,240 smart people getting together and learning from each other is 252 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:21,320 just super awesome. So I couldn't be happier, even 253 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:24,360 though maybe my tone is a little bit even and cool. 254 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:27,040 There are about. So let me talk a little bit 255 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:30,240 about the Slack instance because I think that's the the like the 256 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:33,280 single, I don't know if I want to call it the single best thing 257 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:36,480 that ID Pro offers, but it's certainly the single best member 258 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:40,200 only benefit that ID Pro offers because it's, it is not a free 259 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:42,240 Slack instance. It is a paid for Slack instance, 260 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:44,560 which means we have got years of history. 261 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:50,160 So if you go into say the SAML channel, there's just so much 262 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:52,000 material there that people can learn from. 263 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:57,120 There are about at last check about 120 different channels. 264 00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:00,840 Obviously some are more active than others and they they do 265 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:05,000 range from authorization, authentication, IGA, password, 266 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:07,920 less human factor identity, pets very important. 267 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:10,480 We've got to have a place to share our cat and dog photos. 268 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:14,320 Pit boss if you're into smoking BBQ, there is there's like a 269 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:19,680 little crew that does that too. There is conference submissions 270 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,640 is one of my favorite Slack channels because that's 271 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:26,040 anecdotally speaking, my observation in going to all of 272 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:32,800 these conferences that I do is that so many of the speakers are 273 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:34,640 ID pro members. And I think part of that is 274 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,560 because we have this conference submission channel where we give 275 00:13:37,560 --> 00:13:40,320 each other feedback as soon as a call for papers opens, it gets 276 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:43,560 announced there. And and you can say, hey, I've 277 00:13:43,560 --> 00:13:48,320 got this idea and you iterate on it with a community to say, is 278 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:49,680 it good? Does it make sense? 279 00:13:49,680 --> 00:13:52,320 Is it compelling? Would you want to go to this? 280 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:57,120 And the acceptance rate feels like it is fairly high. 281 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:00,880 So it's great, great resource. It's a good idea, like peer 282 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:03,080 review and say, yeah, is this good idea or not? 283 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:05,080 Or am I just crazy? I mean, there's a lot of stuff 284 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:07,160 that has come out of the identity space that's been like, 285 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:09,360 yeah, this is just an idea. You know, I think Ian Glaser 286 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:12,000 was, you know, one of those things recently, this whole 287 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:14,120 modern identity concept that he kind of put out there. 288 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:18,000 And it's like, all right, here's this thing, have fun, Go play 289 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:19,640 with it, right? Expand that. 290 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:22,120 Yeah, pretty much, pretty much. I mean, of course, we do have 291 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:24,840 more resources that aren't member only and yet that 292 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:27,960 membership helps support like the ID pro body of knowledge, 293 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:31,320 which is, you know, my, my other favorite thing because before I 294 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:34,840 was executive director, I was the I was and remain the 295 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:38,320 principal editor for the body of college, which you know, that 296 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:42,120 we've got close to three dozen articles there written by 297 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:47,400 subject matter experts that I then get peer reviewed by not 298 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:50,600 necessarily ID pro members, but usually come in and say, is this 299 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:51,960 right? Does this make sense? 300 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:56,680 Is this useful to and is it, as we always say, vendor neutral, 301 00:14:57,120 --> 00:14:59,360 giving piece of people a place to start to just try and 302 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:02,480 understand what, where, where do I even pull the thread to Start 303 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:05,520 learning about what's critical in identity? 304 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:08,240 And I was, I'm glad you mentioned the body knowledge 305 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:10,320 because that was the other thing I was going to bring up because 306 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:13,120 really a lot of the knowledge that goes into that and it's a 307 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:16,840 lot of just really good, well written, smart articles and 308 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:20,000 blogs and explainers and pretty much everything you can help for 309 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:23,040 really kind of feeds into the CID Pro certification. 310 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:25,280 So maybe kind of tell us a little bit about the CID Pro 311 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:27,640 certification, because I know that was kind of a momentous 312 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:28,800 event to get something out there. 313 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:32,000 It was putting that together was a lot of fun. 314 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:37,040 That's another concept that we wanted to have some kind of 315 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:41,600 certification that people who have two years of experience in 316 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:43,240 the identity space. That's actually a really 317 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:46,840 important point. The experience point would be 318 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:50,560 able to take this exam, pass the exam, and be able to demonstrate 319 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:52,600 a baseline of understanding more broadly. 320 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:57,800 The questions were put together by subject matter experts going 321 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:00,240 through, you know, in partnership with people who 322 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:02,400 actually know how to write test questions, which proves to be a 323 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:07,800 lot harder than you would think it should be, and then turn that 324 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:09,880 out into the world. It's about time for it to be 325 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:12,760 refreshed. When we first, when we first put 326 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:15,480 the exam together, one of the things that was interesting was 327 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:19,600 of course, the body of knowledge isn't a complete resource. 328 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:23,320 If you read everything in the body of knowledge, that wouldn't 329 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:28,400 be really quite enough to give you everything to pass the exam. 330 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:30,760 One, you do need operational experience. 331 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:34,120 Two, we didn't have that many, you know, nearly as many 332 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:38,320 articles as we do today. So it's the core resource to 333 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:41,320 support the CID Pro, but it's not the only resource. 334 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:44,120 And if you go to the website, you can see the other the other 335 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:47,080 things that we reference, some of which intimidate the heck out 336 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:51,080 of people 'cause we're like, yeah, NIST 863 is a resource you 337 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:53,600 should be familiar with. To which people have come to me 338 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:57,200 saying, wait, wait, I have to, I have to know all the gory 339 00:16:57,200 --> 00:16:59,520 details of the entirety of this 863. 340 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:05,520 And I'm like, well, no, but you do need to know what it is kind 341 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:07,720 of kind of like that. Or if it's something like, you 342 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:12,119 know, recite the the first verse and passage of Samuel, something 343 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:15,240 like that, right? I, I would love to see, and it's 344 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:17,720 just me personally speaking, like there's a lot of, I would 345 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:21,720 say less technical identity people, but how can we include 346 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:24,599 them as part of this? Because I think right or wrong, 347 00:17:24,599 --> 00:17:28,200 there is sort of AI don't know perception that if you're an 348 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:29,600 identity person, you're a technical person. 349 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:33,200 That is not always the case. So how do we help? 350 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:35,040 Maybe some of those folks would be something maybe interesting 351 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:36,240 to tackle. I've talked with Andy Handel 352 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:39,160 about this sort of the business of I am is sort of the way I 353 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:41,480 kind of put it because it's such an important part. 354 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:43,680 Yes, the technology standards are great. 355 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:46,000 Yes, understanding, you know what the difference between SSO 356 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:49,000 and MFA and two FA, right? And all this other stuff might 357 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:52,240 be good knowledge, but it doesn't do any good if you can't 358 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:54,520 actually get your organization to do anything about it. 359 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:59,200 So I think ideas right on, on maybe ways to you know get the 360 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:01,280 business side of I am up and running. 361 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:02,920 I think that's an area that might be interesting to explore 362 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:04,240 for the future. Just an idea. 363 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:08,880 I think it's a good idea when people do ask me about the, you 364 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:11,720 know, well, I, I don't, I'm, I'm not technical. 365 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:16,600 How do I, how do I engage? And like, well, I'm a librarian 366 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:20,760 with a history degree. You know, as it turns out, it 367 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:25,040 takes all kinds. You know, the, the things that I 368 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:31,600 do in the world today involve helping engineers and developers 369 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:35,680 and architects stay organized, right? 370 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:37,760 Because as it turns out, they're usually not very good at that, 371 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:45,440 bless them, but they need that. There's this, there's this gap 372 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:49,400 of if everybody was technical in the same way, then you would 373 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:51,920 fail. You wouldn't have all of the 374 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:53,480 resources that you need. You wouldn't have the people 375 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:55,280 that actually know how to communicate really well. 376 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:59,440 You wouldn't have people that actually can project manage, 377 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:00,880 which is a which is its own skill set. 378 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:03,160 You wouldn't have necessarily the the business strategic 379 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:04,480 thinkers as you point out, right. 380 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:07,760 It does take all kinds and those folks that step away going, 381 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,480 yeah, but I can't read a spec and understand it. 382 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:13,840 Therefore I couldn't possibly I can't read a spec and understand 383 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:15,360 it. So it's not. 384 00:19:15,360 --> 00:19:17,640 That's not the bars that you should be aiming for. 385 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:21,440 I totally agree with that. Yeah. 386 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:23,440 I mean, there's just, you know, you mentioned it kind of early 387 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:25,880 on when you first joined in and we were talking about the the ID 388 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:27,600 Pro show and all the varied backgrounds, right? 389 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:29,120 We start with our show, right as well. 390 00:19:29,120 --> 00:19:30,520 It's like, OK, so how'd you get into space? 391 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:33,920 The vast majority of people did not choose identity. 392 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:36,480 That's just a working theory I've had for years. 393 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:39,600 And it seems to have proved itself out, at least in our our 394 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:43,480 data that we've collected. There is so much room for all 395 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:45,640 kinds of sorts. I feel like if you've got the 396 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:49,360 attitude and the desire, there is a spot for you, right? 397 00:19:49,360 --> 00:19:51,000 And there's places to learn and stuff like that. 398 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:53,360 It may take a little bit to maybe get where you want to go, 399 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:54,920 right? Depending on sort of, you know, 400 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:57,080 how long you've been in the space and connections and stuff 401 00:19:57,080 --> 00:19:58,960 like that. But I'm totally a fan of it. 402 00:19:59,920 --> 00:20:02,280 One thing that I think is really interesting that I want to pivot 403 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:04,520 a little bit here is to talk about the identity Salon. 404 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:06,360 It's something I wanted to ask Andy about last time he was on 405 00:20:06,360 --> 00:20:07,600 the show. Didn't get a chance to do it. 406 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:12,760 Tell me about the Identity Salon and are you an identity stylist? 407 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:19,840 Here, let me toss my hair. So the identity salon came out 408 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:22,480 of an interesting observation in the, in the, in the same way 409 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:26,760 that unconferences came out of the observation that so much of 410 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:29,280 the useful conversation happens in the hallways. 411 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:32,160 So why don't you just have a meeting of hallway 412 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:34,240 conversations? This came out of the out of the 413 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:38,960 observation that a lot of the we'll, we'll pick on 414 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:41,520 identifiers, which I'm chief of staff for that conference again 415 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:43,720 this year, right? So, but, but it's obviously one 416 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:46,040 of my favorite events, but I'm going to pick on it for a minute 417 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:49,760 because it's aiming to have, you know, anywhere between 3 and 418 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:55,640 5000 people attend and it needs to find the common denominator 419 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:59,200 for what would be of most value to the most people attending. 420 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:04,720 OK, that's, that's reasonable. But what about the other people, 421 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:06,560 right? What about the people who have 422 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:10,200 been the enterprise architects for 15 or 20 years? 423 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:13,640 Or you know, the the people who are very, very senior, they're 424 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:17,320 not going to get out anything out of identity one O 1. 425 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:21,200 They're just, they're just not. They might go to to support 426 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:24,000 people, but that's not really what the conversation they want 427 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:27,000 to have. On top of that, you get an 428 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,840 interesting challenge of when you bring in the enterprise 429 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:33,560 architects from big companies. Well, you know, like big 430 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:35,520 automotive companies or something like that. 431 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:41,040 They can't necessarily talk about what they're doing in a 432 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:43,200 public venue. So here's where the identity 433 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:46,120 salon comes in. It is what we're trying to do is 434 00:21:46,120 --> 00:21:51,960 put together a space for the the senior level people to come in 435 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:55,320 and talk about the challenges that they're seeing as you know, 436 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:59,880 10 year horizon problems, not the how can I deploy pass keys, 437 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:04,960 which is certainly an important conversation to have, but maybe 438 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:08,760 it's the OK, assuming pass keys have been deployed, what's the 439 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:11,440 next thing? What's the problem we haven't 440 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:13,640 come close to solving yet that we're going to have to figure 441 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:16,200 out how to do in our environments? 442 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:20,000 On top of that, it's held under the Chatham House Rule, which 443 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,280 you really should have asked Andy about that because it comes 444 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:25,080 across so much better when when a British person sets that out. 445 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:29,440 But suffice to say, Chatham House Rule means that while you 446 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:33,000 can use the information that you received from an event, you 447 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,200 cannot attribute that information. 448 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:39,960 And so you don't say, hey, Andy said, and Andy is affiliated 449 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:41,920 with Hindle Consulting. I can totally pick on him for 450 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:43,600 this because everybody knows he's involved. 451 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:49,920 That offers an interesting level of freedom to the enterprise 452 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:53,360 architects because they can do a lot more conversation about 453 00:22:53,360 --> 00:22:56,000 what's happening in their world, knowing that that information 454 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:58,000 will be held in reasonable confidence. 455 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:05,760 So we had our very first like proto event asked just before 456 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:08,960 authenticated last year we had our second full day in person 457 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:14,080 event in March and we we try intervening have virtual events. 458 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:17,120 We keep these events small because the important part is 459 00:23:17,120 --> 00:23:22,320 having conversations. We have a newsletter that that 460 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:26,240 comes out after the events that talks a little bit about what we 461 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:27,600 have. We have reports that come out of 462 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,040 these events that goes into a lot more detail. 463 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,280 And someone asked me, can you write a report under the Chatham 464 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:33,400 House rule? Yes. 465 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,120 And I happen to be very good at that actually, because I never 466 00:23:37,120 --> 00:23:39,280 remember anybody's name. So I just type away. 467 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:44,360 But like all this documentation, which then becomes useful and 468 00:23:44,360 --> 00:23:47,840 then they can take back in. If people are interested in 469 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:50,960 getting their name like on the list as we're looking to mix up 470 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:54,640 who's going to be in the the next conversation, go to 471 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,840 theidentitysalon.com and you can see more information. 472 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:03,880 It's right now it is it's entirely supported by 473 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:10,160 essentially by sponsors, but the sponsors don't get the list of 474 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:13,200 who attended, for example, right there is there are limits. 475 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,160 They do get their logo in front of people depending on the level 476 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:18,000 they come in. They do get like thought 477 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:23,920 leadership white papers that can be added to the report, but we 478 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:26,880 might be moving into a a more of a subscription model going 479 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:28,080 forward. But we haven't decided that. 480 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:29,360 It's still pretty darn new for us. 481 00:24:29,360 --> 00:24:31,480 So we're exploring opportunities. 482 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:34,200 I think it's such a cool idea and I think you kind of 483 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,640 addressed my, my natural follow up question is how does one get 484 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,200 involved? Is this invite only? 485 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,360 Is this, you know, you submit an application and sort of get 486 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:45,240 reviewed to see if that makes sense? 487 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,840 Like if I said, OK, I'd like to be in a discussion like this or 488 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,240 I think I have something to share, like what's my step to 489 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,240 try and get involved in here? Your step is to go to that 490 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:58,200 website and at the bottom of the page there is a a link to For 491 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:02,440 more information sign up here. And that gets you on the list 492 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:07,640 that Andy, Ian and I see. And from there that, like I 493 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:12,200 said, as we as we think about the next in person event will be 494 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:16,080 again, be before authenticate and we'll be thinking of what 495 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:17,600 does the agenda for that need to be? 496 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,360 And therefore, who, who, what would be the best mix of people 497 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:22,840 in the room? And if you don't make it in the 498 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:24,840 room, you know, but you're on the list, you may you may end up 499 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:28,000 getting the report anyway. So and the virtual events are 500 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,760 not quite as as strict, though they are also held under the 501 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,160 Chatham House rule. I love the Chatham House rule. 502 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,320 This podcast is under the Chatham House rule too. 503 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:40,960 So you can quote Jim McDonald without saying Jim McDonald's 504 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:42,480 name. Just kidding. 505 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,400 We put our ideas out there all the time and they may be right 506 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:51,120 or they may be wrong. So I guess maybe it is Chatham 507 00:25:51,120 --> 00:25:52,480 House rule. I like that. 508 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:55,880 As far as what you mentioned about the Identity Salon, we'll 509 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,680 put the link in the show notes. I also wanted to comment, you 510 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:04,280 brought up the NIST 800-63 and you mentioned that is kind of a 511 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:07,480 starting point for people. I sometimes refer to that as 512 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:12,120 like the Bible of identity and access management and whether or 513 00:26:12,120 --> 00:26:15,040 not you agree with that. There's another I heard Jim 514 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:19,960 McDonald say, but I, I've said that before that I kind of see 515 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:21,960 it that way. I've been aware of it since 516 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:24,520 2014. It just gives a framework for 517 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:29,280 thinking about placing the proper identity controls based 518 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:33,040 on the context of the situation, the risk presented by the 519 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,680 access. We've had Ryan Galuzzo, he's, 520 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,520 you know, the person kind of writing the revision right now 521 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:44,600 or leading the writing of the revision of 863. 522 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:47,360 So I'd say go back and check out some of those episodes for 523 00:26:47,360 --> 00:26:49,200 people who are interested in learning more. 524 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:54,000 I'd also say a lot of content out there on YouTube as kind of 525 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:57,400 a starting point. But I think, you know, as you 526 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,840 get more, hopefully get more interested in the topic, it's 527 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,200 something that you can actually read the paper from end to end. 528 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:08,880 There's three parts, AB and C. So I think that that that's 529 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,280 great advice. In terms of one of the great 530 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:15,560 references in terms of how to think about applying identity 531 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:19,200 controls. What I wanted to talk to you a 532 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:21,880 little bit about, I'll give you a softball question. 533 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:25,960 The Identity of the Center podcast is definitely 534 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,560 internationally focused. So about a third of our 535 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:31,680 listeners are based in the US. The rest are throughout the 536 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:37,880 world, from using the Slack channel for ID Pro, from just 537 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:41,600 kind of seeing the membership list and knowing who these folks 538 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:43,720 are. They're global. 539 00:27:44,360 --> 00:27:50,240 Is ID Pro a global organization? Absolutely, absolutely. 540 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,560 We regularly have people participating from Australia, 541 00:27:56,120 --> 00:27:58,240 from Japan, of course from Europe. 542 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:01,800 We don't have quite the, the African representation that I 543 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:08,520 really wish we had, but it is the, the, I think the barrier to 544 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,040 entry in terms of people feeling. 545 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:12,920 There's two things that are preventing people from feeling 546 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,360 necessarily comfortable in participating in something like 547 00:28:15,360 --> 00:28:18,360 ID Pro, one of which is whether they feel comfortable with 548 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,880 English as the primary language that that is something that 549 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:26,320 people often struggle with. And the other thing is the 550 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:30,400 culture of openness is not universal. 551 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:36,520 And so, you know, the fact I, I am perfectly happy to post and 552 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:41,120 say I don't know something help. That's not a universally 553 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,680 comfortable concept. And so there are a lot of 554 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:48,080 cultures where you know they'll come in, they'll lurk, but they 555 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,520 won't necessarily participate because you just don't want to 556 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:52,800 be seen as stupid. Great, though. 557 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:55,600 Oh, that's a great point. Now in terms of the 558 00:28:55,640 --> 00:29:00,200 manifestation of that, that global presence, I mean, I, Jeff 559 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,720 and I are attending EIC for the first time. 560 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,480 It's our first international identity conference. 561 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:12,080 I see that there's a lot of presence from ID pro people in 562 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:17,560 terms of the speaker list. Talk to me about identity pros, 563 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:23,480 you know presence there at DIC. We are one of their partners and 564 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:25,920 we are expanding that partnership actually with Kepner 565 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,120 Cole to be even more than just the EIC conference. 566 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,240 But I'll, I'll have a separate announcement about that in the 567 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:33,760 future. Suffice to say that's that's 568 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:38,880 happening. We have a, we for the past 569 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,240 several years we've had a workshop on Tuesday before the 570 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:43,520 formal start of the conference and this year is no different. 571 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,080 We have a workshop where one of the things, what we're 572 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:53,800 presenting for the audience's consideration is job 573 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:57,360 descriptions. It's an interesting thing, 574 00:29:57,360 --> 00:29:59,400 right? How, how do you actually 575 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,320 describe an identity related job? 576 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:05,960 And what do you tell your HR department when you say, OK, 577 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:07,800 I'm, I'm want to hire an architect. 578 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,120 What are the requirements? What are we looking for? 579 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,160 I want to hire a junior person. What are the requirements? 580 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,760 What are we looking for? So Elizabeth Garber, who had 581 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:20,960 been working with ID Pro for, for quite a while to help put 582 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:25,360 together in like the initial library of of templates for job 583 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:29,600 descriptions in the identity space that companies could then 584 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:33,120 use definitely adapt to their more specific needs. 585 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,760 Because we tried to keep it vendor neutral, but you may put 586 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,480 in there as a requirement. No, you, you must have 587 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,680 experience with Entra or something like that, right. 588 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,640 But but that's the that's the thing we want to put in there to 589 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:49,800 again, make it just a little bit easier to describe what does an 590 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:54,160 identity professional do and to make and to later sort of see 591 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:56,360 that through an organization such that you can hand this to 592 00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,560 your HR department even and say this is what an identity 593 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:01,280 professional does and this is what we need. 594 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,840 So that's what that's going to be Tuesday morning of EIC. 595 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,400 That's a really cool concept. I mean, I'm, I'm sure it's 596 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:12,080 something that everyone is going, has either faced or is 597 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,560 going to face in terms of trying to identify identity talent. 598 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:19,760 I mean, I'd love to get your perspective when it comes to the 599 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:22,080 upcoming crop of identity talent. 600 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:24,920 I mean, we hear about all the time that there's a real 601 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:28,600 shortage of talent. And at the same time, a lot of 602 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,320 the lot of folks reach out to me and they're looking for that 603 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:33,800 entry level role. It's like everything requires 604 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:36,560 experience. I mean, I'm sure you see that as 605 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:38,480 well. And what are your thoughts or 606 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:40,200 what kind of tips would you give people? 607 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,480 One of the questions you you guys asked me in the the first 608 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,280 time I was on the show is like, how did I get started in this, 609 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:47,640 right? How did I get started in 610 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:52,240 identity? And I didn't, I never thought 611 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,800 that identity wasn't part of everything I did, right? 612 00:31:55,800 --> 00:32:00,600 I as a, as a Galacticon bulletin board system operator in 1995. 613 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:04,040 What was my job? My job was figuring out who had, 614 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:07,080 you know, what accounts were needed, who had them and what 615 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:10,600 they had access to. That's the core of identity 616 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,400 management right there. You shift that up to OK, send 617 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:17,000 OS413 for the win, Who has access? 618 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:19,720 What are the groups involved? How do you manage that? 619 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:24,360 You're back to identity, right? Identity is in pretty much every 620 00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:30,880 aspect of online services. So if you want to get involved 621 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:36,040 in identity and you don't have experience, you you can find it. 622 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:39,600 If you get a job at an organization and you're dealing 623 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:44,000 with online services, then you will have more space to learn 624 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:45,480 about identity than you think you will. 625 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,240 Yeah, I think that's a great point of view. 626 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,520 I think you're getting something that is related where you're 627 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:55,040 doing some identity work, you start to build that experience 628 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,600 and then it's a jump maybe full time into the industry. 629 00:32:59,960 --> 00:33:03,040 I was thinking about something else about the Slack channel. 630 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:07,720 I constantly see people posting about the Identibiers and I'm 631 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:08,880 excited. I've never been to an 632 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:12,640 Identibier. I don't know if you have and I 633 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,880 always wondered how did identibiers start? 634 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:18,200 Do you know how the concept came about? 635 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:22,680 And is there any kind of linkage between ID Pro and Identibier or 636 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:26,600 is it just like a natural Organism that just happens to 637 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,360 happen? It's a mutual admiration society 638 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:34,200 and I believe, I believe Sam Evans started it several years 639 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,960 ago. There's no official relationship 640 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,600 between the two other than, you know, I don't, you know, ID Pro 641 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,840 members go to identifiers and, and if you're at an identifier, 642 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:46,480 you're going to talk about ID Pro And we, we all love each 643 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:48,680 other very much because, you know, it is awesome. 644 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:56,760 I have been to an identifier and sometimes it gets a little too 645 00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:02,200 loud for me because it is such an enthusiastic group, but they 646 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:06,880 are ever so much fun. So I, if I remember one thing 647 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:10,120 about you from our, our last podcast is that you're a Scotch 648 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:11,960 person. Is that OK? 649 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:14,159 Do you have to go? You have to like beer when you 650 00:34:14,159 --> 00:34:16,800 go to identity beer. I'm going to sound like an 651 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:20,840 alcoholic at this point, right? I, I like interesting flavors 652 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:23,600 and therefore, yes, I like Scotch and I like the breadth of 653 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,600 flavors in Scotch and it's fun to just deep dive and explore on 654 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,159 that. But I also like beer, though not 655 00:34:29,159 --> 00:34:31,520 all beers, right? I'm into multi beers. 656 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:34,159 Therefore I like the Belgian beers, the English ales, you 657 00:34:34,159 --> 00:34:36,679 know, Amber's if I have to. I do not understand the concept 658 00:34:36,679 --> 00:34:38,880 of an IPA. Why you want to drink a beer 659 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,280 that makes your mouth pucker Completely beyond me. 660 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:44,760 And I cannot drink leap beers because I don't. 661 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:45,840 Like wheat beer? Either. 662 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,800 So I used to like them, but I can't drink them anymore. 663 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:51,480 Not not, not since college, actually. 664 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,120 So yes, I also drink wine. Thank you. 665 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,520 And I don't have a preference between red and white. 666 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:00,760 I have a preference between good and not good, right? 667 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,000 I want good wine. Maybe I shouldn't have brought 668 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,240 up that whole whole lot of discussion. 669 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:10,040 No, absolutely. You know, so the international 670 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:14,440 angle's well in place, but you guys have, you know, the roots 671 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:19,480 in the starting in the United States and have a bitty pretty 672 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:23,320 big presence when it comes to one of the biggest conferences 673 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:28,440 in the US, ideniverse. Talk to us about ID Pros role at 674 00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:31,640 Ideniverse and what you have coming up for 2025. 675 00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:36,360 South, as with the IC, we are. We are considered one of the 676 00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,000 sort of industry partners to Ideniverse. 677 00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:42,240 We do have a booth which we are constantly looking for 678 00:35:42,240 --> 00:35:45,800 volunteers to come in and hang out and and let people come and 679 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:47,760 say, wait, what is ID Pro? What is this thing? 680 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:49,000 Why? Why should I care? 681 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,320 Though most often they want to know about the the CID Pro exam. 682 00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:58,640 We with my ID Pro hat on. I'm one of the two people that 683 00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,680 does the newcomers session to just introduce people. 684 00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:03,360 What does it mean to be at Ideniverse? 685 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:05,160 What is it like? What can you expect? 686 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:10,520 You know, that moment of being able to look at this crowd of 687 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,840 200 people and say, welcome all of you introverts to the 688 00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:16,200 Identiverse conference. Glance, you know, 689 00:36:16,240 --> 00:36:18,400 surreptitiously off from one side to the next because you 690 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:20,120 were surrounded by fellow introverts, and you should be 691 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,120 able to say hi to them even though you kind of don't want. 692 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:27,720 To yeah, One thing that that I I've never been aware of is 693 00:36:27,720 --> 00:36:31,200 like, OK, linking the two conversations we had, is there 694 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:35,040 an identity that usually happens at Identiverse? 695 00:36:35,720 --> 00:36:43,000 There's usually an ID pro social like Wednesday after whatever 696 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:44,440 the the conference social is going to be. 697 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:46,200 So it's usually like around 6:30 or so. 698 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:48,240 We still need to get that organized. 699 00:36:48,240 --> 00:36:52,680 I have to do that as soon as I get home, but that's usually a 700 00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:54,440 thing. It isn't usually an identity or 701 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:57,000 though Co branding. That would be totally fine with 702 00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,160 me. I haven't talked to Sam about it 703 00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:00,160 yet though. I should do that. 704 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:04,520 Yeah, I kind of get the sense, you know, Identity or ID Pro 705 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:07,280 Identity Center podcast. We have one thing in common, 706 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:10,560 which is vendor neutrality. It's not that we're against a 707 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:16,800 new vendor, but it's we don't want to stand for promoting 1 708 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:22,160 vendor versus another. And, you know, that's one thing 709 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,720 that I've learned about an identity beer because I even 710 00:37:24,720 --> 00:37:29,400 offered to sponsor the one that we're doing in Oslo, which will 711 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:33,440 be in a couple of weeks. And I was told, well, that's not 712 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:35,640 really the culture. Like I said, I've never been to 713 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:37,960 1 before. But the idea is that hey, 714 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:42,040 everybody, you know, nobody pays anybody else's way at the 715 00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:43,720 Identity Bureau. So I thought that was pretty 716 00:37:43,720 --> 00:37:46,160 cool. That is cool. 717 00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:50,440 And it's AI like it I, you know, one of the reasons I really like 718 00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:54,280 the whole vendor neutrality concept is because it, it pushes 719 00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:59,960 people to think about why maybe why the product they're using 720 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:01,560 does what it does the way it does. 721 00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:05,920 Because if you can learn those underlying principles, it will 722 00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:09,520 then serve you really well as to OK, well, if this behaves this 723 00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:11,560 way, it behaves this way for a reason. 724 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:14,840 The next product, yeah, the bells, the whistles, the 725 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,560 dashboards, they may look all different, but the underlying 726 00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:21,520 concepts about identity verification, about group 727 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,840 management, about access controls, you know, pick your 728 00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:29,040 favorite role based or policy based or whatever based, those 729 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:31,160 principles will apply across the board. 730 00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:33,480 And as soon as you enforce vendor neutrality, it makes you 731 00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:34,960 think about that. So I like that. 732 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,640 Yeah, I at least my understanding I'm taking the CID 733 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:44,920 Pro exam, but that the exam is based on kind of vendor neutral 734 00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:47,920 type questions. It's what is the best practice 735 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:54,320 or leading practice for this identity problem, right? 736 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:57,520 Yep, Yep, that's exactly. So, you know, I'm going to add 1 737 00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:02,400 point about the CID Pro exam. This the single hardest thing 738 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:03,960 about the exam. This is, this is like now the 739 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:06,000 inside story. What it, what makes that exam 740 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:08,160 really, really difficult? What is the one thing that 741 00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:11,360 people come back to me and say, wow, this was hard? 742 00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:15,960 Yeah, it's the proctoring. It's not the questions, it's the 743 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:18,920 actual proctoring experience because since it's, since it's 744 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,760 an online, it's a, it's a, it's an official certification. 745 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:24,040 It's not just a random set of multiple questions. 746 00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:27,680 You're actually going through a service where there's someone on 747 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:32,440 the other side staring at you to make sure that you don't, I'm 748 00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:34,360 sorry if you're one of those people that just starts looking 749 00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:36,800 off into the distance as you're thinking, Oh no, they don't like 750 00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:39,440 that because you might have something written over there. 751 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:42,360 You know, you're not allowed to have a phone anywhere nearby, 752 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:44,760 any other computers nearby. You're not allowed to have water 753 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:48,400 nearby, right? If they hear sounds, they will 754 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:51,760 ask you to pick up your camera and move it around so that they 755 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:53,960 can inspect your room. And they'll only give you like 756 00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:56,560 so many opportunities for that before they just cut you off. 757 00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:01,280 So they are strict and that's not anything that IT pro 758 00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:03,040 controls. Right. 759 00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:05,960 And so people coming in thinking, hey, this is a 760 00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:08,280 friendly community and therefore this is going to be a friendly 761 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:09,920 exam experience. It's not a friendly exam 762 00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:12,520 experience. It's a it's it's a hardcore exam 763 00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:15,760 experience. You already hear first, folks. 764 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:21,360 Yeah. So that's great. 765 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:25,440 Jeff, what do you think? We close out this episode. 766 00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:28,960 Well, I feel like we all travel so much. 767 00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:31,800 And you know, Heather, you've been fortunate to be a whole 768 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:34,960 bunch of different places. I'm curious, what do you do? 769 00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:38,120 I guess what are you going to do with your off time from 770 00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:39,480 traveling? Like do you have plans? 771 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:41,960 Because I think we're all going to hit conferences in Europe and 772 00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:43,680 US especially over the next month or so. 773 00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:45,120 But what are you going to do with your time? 774 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:50,120 Well, fascinating question. Some of that time will be spent 775 00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:53,560 at home rocking back and forth, just trying to recover from all 776 00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:55,520 the amount of time that I've been out on the road because. 777 00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:56,920 That's a given. We all do that. 778 00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:00,720 We all do that, but I have to do it really fast because I get to 779 00:41:00,720 --> 00:41:03,560 go home on Saturday and I'll be home for four days. 780 00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:08,360 And then I have to get to Redmond, which is basically two 781 00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:11,040 hours from my house for the B Side's Seattle conference. 782 00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:12,520 And I'll be there through the weekend. 783 00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:14,480 And then I get to come home for five days and then I have to go 784 00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:16,480 down to San Francisco because RSA is coming. 785 00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:19,000 I won't be at the RSA conference, but I'll be at a pre 786 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:21,920 event that I need to do and then I get to go home for five days 787 00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:24,200 and then I have to fly out to Berlin for EIC. 788 00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:28,920 For EIC, I don't get to go home. I have to go to New York City 789 00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:31,720 for Auth Con, which is a new conference being put on by 790 00:41:31,720 --> 00:41:32,840 Fusion Auth. Great. 791 00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:35,200 So I'll be there for a week, then I get to come over two 792 00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:36,760 whole weeks. It's like the biggest break that 793 00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:38,520 I actually have in the foreseeable future. 794 00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:42,360 And then it's Ideniverse. After Ideniverse, I don't get to 795 00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:44,920 go home. I have to go to something called 796 00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:46,520 TNC. It used to stand for the Terrain 797 00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:49,680 and Networking Conference and it's a global conference for 798 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:52,400 National Research and Education Networks and Academic Identity 799 00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:53,680 Federation. So that will be in Brighton in 800 00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:57,520 the UK, and then I get to come home for about 10 days and then 801 00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:02,200 I have to go to Geneva for a global collaboration summit 802 00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:05,840 about standards development and the geopolitical landscape that 803 00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:09,920 is making things a character building experience. 804 00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:13,800 The week after that is still in Geneva, where I'm trying to go 805 00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:18,080 to the ITUT standards meeting because I'm addicted to 806 00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:19,880 standards development. And I think it's fascinating and 807 00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:23,320 I want to see what the ITU is like in their standards process. 808 00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:25,920 But you have to become accredited and I have submitted 809 00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:28,280 my application to attend. We'll see how that goes. 810 00:42:29,240 --> 00:42:31,320 Then I have a week off. I'm not bothering coming home 811 00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:33,240 because why? And then it's the ITF meeting 812 00:42:33,240 --> 00:42:36,720 which will be in Madrid. My sweetheart and I had a 813 00:42:36,720 --> 00:42:39,560 conversation about this July 2nd and I'm like, honey, I don't, I 814 00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:41,360 don't know what to do. I can't, I don't think I can 815 00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:42,840 come home. He's like, no, don't come home. 816 00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:46,360 But but if you're going to be away for that one week, you have 817 00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:49,640 a break. You have to take vacation it I'm 818 00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:51,080 requiring that you take vacation. 819 00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:54,760 And I was like, wow, how do you do that? 820 00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:57,000 OK, what do I do? Well, then it was a all right, 821 00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:00,000 I'm going to be in Europe. I you. 822 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:02,880 Didn't like sit down and then like write A blog on this. 823 00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:05,000 OK, I need to define what vacation is and get some 824 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,880 standards and some parameters around this and and so. 825 00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:11,360 Forth, yes, yes, that's exactly kind of what I did actually. 826 00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:15,480 And I and I chose a place though I chose a place by how relaxing 827 00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:19,280 will it be and how, how unlikely is it that there will ever be a 828 00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:21,760 conference there? And so I probably won't ever get 829 00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:24,040 to it. And so I'm going to spend a week 830 00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:26,640 in Malta. Yeah, that's pretty cool. 831 00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:30,040 Yeah. And just, and just take in the 832 00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:32,080 sights and sounds. Or are you like the kind of 833 00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:35,040 person who like has activities throughout the day or you just 834 00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:38,160 like, I'm going to get there and I'm just going to kind of splay 835 00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:40,120 out and just kind of see where the currents take me? 836 00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:45,120 So I am a person that would like to become a, you know, basically 837 00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:47,920 bed rotting for the wind and just not move. 838 00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:51,360 But then I had this bad habit of them not eating because it's 839 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:54,080 like, OK, get up and eat or just continue to lay here. 840 00:43:54,240 --> 00:43:57,880 So I, I really do have to get out at least once a day. 841 00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:00,240 But that's OK. I've got this covered. 842 00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:02,400 I'm going to, I've got a tour of some wineries. 843 00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:05,480 I've got several art tours scheduled. 844 00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:09,160 All of this is being planned in advance because I'm a planner. 845 00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:11,680 That's what I do. Jim, what would you do with I 846 00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:13,840 guess a week off in between? I mean, I know we're going to 847 00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:17,080 EIC and you spent a week before that, but like what's a a 848 00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:18,680 recharge cycle for you look like? 849 00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:22,440 That is recharge cycle for me for this year. 850 00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:26,320 First off, I just wanted to say is something that was occurring 851 00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:31,000 to me is we've been having this whole podcast, which is all that 852 00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:33,320 Heather does for the Sandras community. 853 00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:35,800 So thank you. I'm going to say thank you on 854 00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:38,880 behalf of all of us for doing what you do. 855 00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:43,600 And, and I mean, you know, bouncing around the world sounds 856 00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:46,800 glamorous, especially for folks who don't do it for a living. 857 00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:50,280 You go to all these places that's a little bit hard on the 858 00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:52,560 body, right? That's hard on the body. 859 00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:56,680 And it's hard to have any kind of meaningful relationships with 860 00:44:56,680 --> 00:45:00,640 people that were like family and stuff because you don't, you 861 00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:02,880 can't just say, Hey, I'll be over for dinner every Sunday 862 00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:05,520 night for, for family dinner or whatever, right? 863 00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:09,320 So it's, you're putting in a lot of your life force energy into 864 00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:10,280 this. So thank you. 865 00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:14,240 I, I will point out my, my sweetheart is probably the most 866 00:45:14,240 --> 00:45:16,520 introverted human I have ever met in my life. 867 00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:19,040 And that's with all of the standards people I hang out with 868 00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:21,640 when we're at home, when we live in a very small house, it's 100 869 00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:24,480 square meter house, We still text each other. 870 00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:27,240 We're sitting in the same room, we're looking at each other, 871 00:45:27,240 --> 00:45:28,760 We're still texting each other, right. 872 00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:30,840 And he does not travel with me because that would involve 873 00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:35,280 dealing with humans and no, just just no So and. 874 00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:39,240 It would be expensive. It would be annoying for him, 875 00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:42,400 which is actually the bore important point. 876 00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:43,080 He would. He would you. 877 00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:44,720 Can't put a price on. I mean, that's just. 878 00:45:44,720 --> 00:45:46,880 You can't put a price on the level of irritation he would 879 00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:51,200 experience. So that part's not too bad. 880 00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:53,440 The the physical exhaustion. You're absolutely right. 881 00:45:53,440 --> 00:46:00,200 When when we when COVID happened, it was so relaxing it 882 00:46:00,240 --> 00:46:03,520 but it took me 18 months to recover from from all the travel 883 00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:06,400 that I do. Yeah, it takes a while. 884 00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:10,920 It does take a while. So I was thinking about the 885 00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:15,520 whole thing that Jeff asked you, like, are you like a hyper 886 00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:17,760 planner for your vacation as well? 887 00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:23,360 So I'm going to Oslo and then to Denmark before EIC, never been 888 00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:26,520 to either one. And I've been watching so many 889 00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:29,600 Youtubes that I feel like I'm going to get there. 890 00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:32,760 There's going to be nothing to see because I've already seen it 891 00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:35,760 all on YouTube at least three or four times. 892 00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:41,680 Because I'm I'm trying to make sure that not only do I see all 893 00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:44,200 the things that I want to see and do all the things that I 894 00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:48,560 want to do, but that I have them mapped out so that I'm not just 895 00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:52,840 traveling zigzag all over the city so that I'm hitting them in 896 00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:56,120 the right order. So let me let me point something 897 00:46:56,120 --> 00:47:00,440 out. You've probably experienced the 898 00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:04,960 difference between talking to someone on the podcast and so 899 00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:07,120 you have them in a nice little box and you can have a great 900 00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:11,720 conversation and then seeing them in person and actually 901 00:47:11,720 --> 00:47:15,560 getting a hug and the whole body experience of communication. 902 00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:20,280 It's different that for me, that's why I travel because I 903 00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:22,960 cannot have the relationship building that I need to throw a 904 00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:26,480 little box on my screen. Going to Oslo, going to Denmark, 905 00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:27,920 going anywhere, any kind of travel. 906 00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:32,440 You can see everything in the little box on your screen in 907 00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:35,360 YouTube and it is nothing compared to that visceral 908 00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:40,520 reaction of actually being able to see the thing, as expensive 909 00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:42,320 as it may be. Well put. 910 00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:46,080 Yeah, I know exactly, exactly what I'm looking forward to. 911 00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:51,160 And, you know, but I still am probably over planning this 912 00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:55,760 thing to the point where it's like, I know how many miles each 913 00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:59,800 thing is from my hotel. But part of it is like, I don't 914 00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:01,720 want to be traveling the whole time. 915 00:48:01,720 --> 00:48:05,360 I want to, you know, have the hotel and then four days to go 916 00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:09,360 and do all these things and, you know, have the hot dog at the 917 00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:13,440 street food vendor that I saw in a YouTube video or something 918 00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:16,120 like that. And I think that would, I don't 919 00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:17,800 know. I usually don't do that. 920 00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:19,960 I'm usually much less planned out. 921 00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:25,080 But I feel like we have limited time and to get all these things 922 00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:29,640 in it's going to require a little bit of pre thought. 923 00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:34,200 And I also don't want to have regret later that oh, we didn't 924 00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:37,040 see all those great things because we didn't do enough 925 00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:41,080 research. If I'm not aware of something in 926 00:48:41,240 --> 00:48:44,680 Oslo or Copenhagen by now, after all the videos I've watched, 927 00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:53,360 it's not from a lack of trying. It's as long as you leave, leave 928 00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:57,400 in flexibility, right? But planning to the extent you 929 00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:02,320 know to from from 8:00 AM to 8:00 PM is fine as long as 930 00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:07,280 you're still comfortable with you know what, I'm tired today. 931 00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:11,600 I don't I don't really feel like that 10 mile walk to get to this 932 00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:15,040 thing. So there's going to be other 933 00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:17,120 times probably I will. I won't do that. 934 00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:20,360 As long as you you build in that level of comfort in yourself of 935 00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:23,120 being able to say no, not today, you'll be fine. 936 00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:25,720 Absolutely. What are you? 937 00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:28,160 How are you approaching your trip, Jeff? 938 00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:34,400 100% the opposite of you Jim. Right now I have a flight to 939 00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:40,120 Berlin and then I have a flight out of Amsterdam 2 weeks later. 940 00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:44,240 So that's about as far planning as my wife and I've gotten. 941 00:49:44,240 --> 00:49:47,040 She's going to join me in Berlin towards the end of the week. 942 00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:50,840 And then the plan right now is to go from Berlin to Amsterdam, 943 00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:53,800 probably by train. We haven't figured that part 944 00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:55,080 out. I still don't have a hotel for 945 00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:57,760 Amsterdam. And then we're going to figure 946 00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:00,960 out like a day trip somewhere using sort of Amsterdam and sort 947 00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:03,400 of like the base from there and then fly home from there, you 948 00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:05,240 know, a week, a week after EI CS over. 949 00:50:05,240 --> 00:50:10,000 So I'm I'm I haven't figured it out yet. 950 00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:12,680 So I honestly don't know how to answer the other than I know I 951 00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:15,480 have a way into Germany and a way out of Amsterdam. 952 00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:18,160 How I get between the two is still up to be, you know, 953 00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:20,360 decided. But I'm kind of a little bit 954 00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:22,880 more relaxed on vacation. I'm like, all right, let's just 955 00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:25,880 go there and then let's just kind of hang out and see where 956 00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:28,520 the wind takes us. And we did this for London last 957 00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:32,680 year, where the whole point of the trip was to go see the Cubs 958 00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:34,160 play the Cardinals baseball game. 959 00:50:34,720 --> 00:50:36,240 Jim, I'm sure you'd appreciate that. 960 00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:41,000 And we spent a week, I think there the game was on Saturday. 961 00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:43,280 We came in early and we basically just picked a 962 00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:44,440 direction. It was the first time either of 963 00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:45,880 us had actually been in London proper. 964 00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:48,240 And we picked a direction and just walked. 965 00:50:48,240 --> 00:50:51,320 And when we got tired of walking, we'd stop into a pub or 966 00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:54,200 something and get drinks or food or whatever maybe. 967 00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:56,880 And then when we were kind of done for the day, we would take 968 00:50:56,880 --> 00:50:59,840 an Uber from however far we got out back to the hotel. 969 00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:03,400 And then we would just kind of, you know, play it easy at the 970 00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:05,280 hotel and then do the same the next day. 971 00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:06,440 So we just picked different directions. 972 00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:08,880 I imagine this is probably going to be kind of similar. 973 00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:11,400 I feel like it's the first trip out to these places. 974 00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:13,360 So, you know, there's that desire. 975 00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:15,000 I totally get you. And I was like, I want to see 976 00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:17,360 everything. It's just not reasonable. 977 00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:19,280 I've I've already kind of put it in my head as I go, like, we're 978 00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:21,000 not going to see everything. Like let's just pick the things 979 00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:23,800 that are most important and then we'll adapt on the fly as 980 00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:25,040 needed. My wife's great to go at that 981 00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:26,920 and she's, you know, on board, that kind of thing. 982 00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:31,240 So, and if it's super cool, we can always try to go back, 983 00:51:31,240 --> 00:51:33,040 right? Maybe it's EIC next year or two 984 00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:34,640 years from now or something else, right? 985 00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:37,880 Or maybe, you know, whatever happens, right, we end up 986 00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:40,240 somewhere else for, for work or something like that, right. 987 00:51:40,240 --> 00:51:43,400 So I'm a little more, I guess, the short version, Jim, I'm 988 00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:47,680 opposite. I think there, I think it's 989 00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:51,240 great that you're opposite. And by the way, it's not like 990 00:51:51,240 --> 00:51:56,400 I'm doing this planning because I feel like I have to. 991 00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:59,400 I'm doing this planning because I'm really enjoying it. 992 00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:03,840 Like watching these videos gets me excited about going and oh, 993 00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:05,640 here's all the things that I can do. 994 00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:09,680 And coming up with that map that I did wasn't because like, Oh 995 00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:11,920 no, I have to sit down and create this map. 996 00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:14,280 That's because I wanted to see where all these different things 997 00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:18,800 were in relation to each other. So it's that's the reason I'm 998 00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:20,200 doing it. I like. 999 00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:23,240 I do the map thing only if I'm going someplace that I'm not 1000 00:52:23,240 --> 00:52:24,960 familiar with. And I love things like Google 1001 00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:26,160 Street View. It's like, OK, let me get 1002 00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:28,200 familiar with the surroundings. OK, here's what to expect, 1003 00:52:28,720 --> 00:52:30,600 here's where this is going to be AT and so forth. 1004 00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:33,760 But I don't, I don't go into like the logistics and planning 1005 00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:36,800 of like the most optimal path of all the different things around 1006 00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:39,480 it. So that's, that's it. 1007 00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:42,440 All right. Why don't we wrap it up for this 1008 00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:44,360 week? Heather, it's a pleasure to see 1009 00:52:44,360 --> 00:52:47,680 you virtually. We will see you in real life in 1010 00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:50,720 the next couple of weeks over at EIC and then get an Identiverse. 1011 00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:53,960 Thank you again for working with us on the whole partnership 1012 00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:55,200 thing. Looking forward to see, you know 1013 00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:57,880 where this goes. We have lots of ID Pro members, 1014 00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:01,440 guests, all kinds of stuff and I'm sure ideas are cranking in 1015 00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:03,400 our heads of what are the things that we can be doing together 1016 00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:06,480 over there the next several weeks, months. 1017 00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:08,000 You know, however, on this, this goes. 1018 00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:11,040 So I'll have links in our show notes for people to check out 1019 00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:14,960 Heather. So your LinkedIn, the ID pro.org 1020 00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:16,200 website. So definitely want to check that 1021 00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:18,000 out. I'll have a link to the identity 1022 00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:19,520 salon, which sounds super cool and interesting. 1023 00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:21,080 I want to talk to you about that after the fact. 1024 00:53:21,440 --> 00:53:26,800 And then yeah, for us, we're on the web, IDC, podcast.com, we 1025 00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:28,840 have our YouTube channel, which we're still trying to grow. 1026 00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:30,840 So feel free to give us a like and subscribe there. 1027 00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:34,560 Definitely helps and definitely seen a lot of viewers come on 1028 00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:35,680 board in the last couple of months. 1029 00:53:35,720 --> 00:53:37,960 So I'm trying to do more, more shorts and things like that. 1030 00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:39,640 And maybe that's working, maybe it's not, I don't know. 1031 00:53:39,640 --> 00:53:41,920 But give us a like and subscribe anyway. 1032 00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:44,640 And with that, we'll go ahead and leave it for this week. 1033 00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:47,760 Thanks for watching and or listening and we'll talk with 1034 00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:49,320 you all in the next one. Bye bye. 1035 00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:54,840 You've been listening to Identity at the Center. 1036 00:53:55,240 --> 00:53:59,320 We hope you've enjoyed the show. Make sure to like, rate and 1037 00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:02,920 review, and we'll be back soon. But in the meantime, hit the 1038 00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:06,360 website at identity@thecenter.com. 1039 00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:11,040 See you next time on Identity at the Center.