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This is identity at the center. 
If it has anything to do with I 

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am this is the go-to podcast. 
So if you're a beginner or an 

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expert or anyone in between 
you've found your new home 

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welcome to Identity at the 
center now your host Jim 

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McDonald and Jeff Steadman 
Welcome to the identity of the 

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sender podcast. 
I'm Jeff and that's Jim. 

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Hey, Jim! 
Hey, Jeff! 

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How are you? 
I know what it is? 

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I'm good. 
Well, I'm okay, I have 

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allergies, I'm traveling, so 
it's good times. 

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I don't know what it is, 
whatever. 

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I kind of kick off the show. 
You look at me like with this 

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smile and this is an audio 
podcast, but you give me this, 

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you know, what eating grin and I
have no idea what you're about 

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to say next. 
So this is exactly the way I 

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always, prepare something fun to
talk about. 

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And today it's I was thinking 
about a video call that I was on

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yesterday, and I mean, that's 
pretty much. 

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HR lives, right? 
We just sit on video calls all 

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the time and two people had the 
same virtual background. 

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They were in like the same 
office space. 

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You've, I'm sure everybody who's
listening to. 

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This has seen this virtual 
background. 

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Looks like the person has like a
corner desk and there's glass 

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windows all around them and it's
not the biggest city in the 

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world but they're in some kind 
of urban area or two people were

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sitting in the same chair, in 
the same virtual background. 

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And I thought to myself, Okay, 
for me, I've been working from 

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home now for I think it's 11 12 
years. 

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I actually might even be longer 
than that. 

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And you know, I think with the 
pandemic, it's kind of taken off

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and I kind of get the question 
of like one. 

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When is software going to 
improve the virtual backgrounds?

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Give you more choices and not 
have that like awful blur around

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your hair and like cut people's 
ears off and stuff like that. 

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And then number two, To what are
people going to digital virtual 

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backgrounds and kind of just 
like invest in having a nicer 

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background and then that got me 
thinking? 

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Like so I'm going to put that 
question on, see you? 

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But then it got me thinking 
about, you know, remote work. 

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And you know, it seems like it's
here to stay. 

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As far as I'm concerned, 
especially in our industry, I 

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think the pandemic brought it to
a new level, I think the great 

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resignation got Is hiring it and
infosec people especially from 

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hey wherever you live. 
If you're good at what you do, 

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you can work here. 
So I think it's here to say and,

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you know it, but it's 
interesting. 

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You know, you traffic is back 
to. 

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That's a very real thing. 
So what are your thoughts? 

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Well, you have a few things 
there. 

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Let's start with the virtual 
backgrounds. 

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I mean, I think everyone 
remembers a couple years ago 

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right virtual backgrounds, like 
the Rays or the rage. 

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Zoom WebEx go to like everybody 
was adding in features into 

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their video conferencing 
software to be able to do that. 

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You know, there was fun ones at 
first and then you know people 

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think got bored of it and then 
they didn't care and then they 

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just was like a static, you know
company logo or just one of the 

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built-in ones that came with it.
I think I know the one you're 

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talking about, I don't know if 
that was teams or I think it's 

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probably teams or WebEx that we 
were on yesterday, pretty much 

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all day. 
And I know, I think another talk

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about sites like the white one 
was like the glass kind of 

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window. 
Was and yeah, you get the weird,

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like fuzz around people's head 
with the the blur. 

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I don't. 
So the blur one's interesting 

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because that is extremely 
software dependent, but if you 

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have the appropriate Hardware, 
you can actually make it look 

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better. 
And if you have the appropriate 

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lighting, it works even better. 
That is what I see is like the 

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biggest downfall most people as 
they're lighting is just crap. 

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It comes to web cameras and kind
of setting up positioning. 

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My favorite thing is People. 
So at home, when I'm actually in

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my normal setup and not 
traveling, I have a pretty I've 

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invested. 
My background looks good, I have

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a nice, Sony mirrorless camera, 
I have lighting stuff like that,

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that you know, kind of comes 
off. 

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Well and people always think 
that I'm standing in front of a 

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virtual background and I back up
into my virtual looks like you 

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know it's like oh no this is 
like this is real. 

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Like I actually like took the 
time to set up I figured he was 

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like hey you know what I'm 
always on camera about for 

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something might as well invest 
the time and you know get it set

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up the way that I'd like Kind of
present myself rather than 

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having that awkward, you know, 
up the nose angle, double chin 

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turtleneck with her. 
It might be for people looking 

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at. 
So I think that's one. 

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If you have a, I will throw a 
pro tip out there. 

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If you have a computer that has 
an Nvidia, a relatively recent 

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Nvidia video card into it, and 
video has a software called 

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broadcast that is free. 
It works off of your video card 

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and basically does a much better
job of doing like virtual 

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camera. 
Depth of background, those sorts

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of things, but it does require 
pretty decent video card for it 

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to work well. 
So that's my Pro tip for that. 

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Now you mentioned, I think the 
other thing was what working at 

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home, and if that's you know, 
whether it's going to stay, it 

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has to be. 
I mean, come on, I mean, 

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everyone found out in the last 
like what? 

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Two, three years, the jobs that 
their managers and directors and

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CEOs were saying, no, we need 
you in the office, we can't work

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without that guess. 
They figured it out over the 

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last two years, like, very few 
companies failed because people 

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were working from home like 
that, just wasn't a thing. 

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And now the technology is here, 
the bandwidth is here. 

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We have all the tools to make it
effective. 

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I think actually, the work-life 
balance has gotten worse because

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of it. 
I know that I spent a lot more 

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time working that I do that, I 
would the commute is gone, which

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is really nice, but I think 
people have filled that time up 

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to some degree with just even, 
you know, getting more work done

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or whatever. 
Maybe, so I think it's my 

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opinion on it, I think. 
Think every job is a little bit 

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different. 
Some there is probably a better 

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idea to be in. 
Maybe there's some kind of 

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hybrid, you know, I think we 
missed sort of like the human 

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interaction, some things, but I 
don't see hybrid work. 

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At least going away. 
I think remote will have to be a

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component of it. 
Just for people stay competitive

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because those are really smart 
people all over the world. 

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And you're telling me you 
wouldn't hire like this rock 

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star, you know, identity person 
just because, you know, they 

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live in, you know, let's say 
North Carolina and the rest of 

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the company is in, I don't know,
San Francisco. 

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Like that doesn't make any sense
like bitches. 

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That's not a good reason. 
Well, that comment you just made

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their brought me to the other 
the the plan B topic which was 

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the Super Bowl ad from work day 
which was you're going around 

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and calling everybody rock stars
and like Ozzy Osbourne's in it 

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and it's like hi I'm Oswalt. 
That's good commercial. 

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I enjoyed it. 
I think it's you know I don't 

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know if it's overused term rock 
star. 

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Whatever me but I think you know
one thing that I always like to 

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say is there's probably a bunch 
of you know, A hero's running 

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around within an organization 
actually making it work. 

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You know, I think a lot of 
organization wish they were like

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completely automated and had all
the bells whistles Technologies 

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and, you know, it just happens. 
It's magic right? 

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Stuff like that. 
But the real, the real story 

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behind it is this probably, you 
know, some were routine like, 

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for and maybe, 20 people who are
really done the scenes actually,

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making the stuff work, and 
they're going above and beyond 

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on a daily basis, but we really 
care. 

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That's right. 
And I think that for a 

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management perspective, if 
you're in management, make sure 

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That you Pat, those people on 
the back and let them know that 

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they're valued and Etc and they 
are valued people will, if 

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they're not, they don't feel 
like they're being taken care 

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of. 
They will absolutely go look for

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something else. 
So take care of the people that 

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are strategic to your 
organization. 

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So as much as I love work from 
home, I've always felt like it 

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should be done more. 
And now I'm glad to see it is 

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where it is. 
I still like getting together 

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with people, we've got a few 
conferences, lined up coming up 

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and a Particular, I know I keep 
emphasizing this but the 

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gardener I am Summit. 
You and I are doing a session, 

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we're going to be facilitating. 
One's called was like inside the

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belly of the gardener Beast. 
We're going to have. 

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Yeah, Henry K. 
And Becky to the, I am analyst 

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over a gardener on stage with us
and we're going to ask them some

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tough questions. 
Yeah. 

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They've been pretty graceful 
with us and letting us really 

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touch on a lot of topics. 
We had sort of our first 

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planning, Last week to kind of 
run through here is. 

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Here's the idea. 
Here's the sort of questions 

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that we're thinking about asking
are these, okay. 

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And we didn't hit anything. 
That was a know yet and some of 

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them I think it will be, you 
know, polarizing shocking. 

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Put them on the hot seat a 
little bit. 

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Maybe make them play defense for
a little bit, which I always 

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find, you know, interesting. 
But we'd love to have as many, 

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you know, questions as we can 
from our listening audience. 

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So, feel free to hit us up on 
LinkedIn, Twitter Mastodon. 

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All the places that were at, And
those in, if you we have people 

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who've sent them in anonymously,
some people are fine with having

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their name attached to it, you 
know, I will put my journalist 

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hat on which doesn't exist. 
And say, I will protect sources 

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and not tell you know where 
things came from and things like

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that. 
If it's an if it's an especially

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challenging question, right? 
I think we want challenging 

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questions, not mean questions. 
Like, you know, hey Jeff, why 

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are you so short? 
I do, I just am next question. 

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You know, there may be right but
you know, those types of 

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questions like is Gartner, 
Foreplay, you know, before you 

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tell me that it's not pay for 
play because of course, you're 

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going to say, it's not, why 
isn't it, right? 

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Explain that sort of system. 
So those types of questions, I 

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think will be interesting to 
kind of put them on. 

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We have 30 minutes and we have a
lot of content already. 

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So we're looking for the best of
the best. 

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I've seen a few themes, come 
through some sort of by 

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combining similar questions and 
to maybe, you know, one or two 

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is kind of go things go his 
lines but it's it's going to be 

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fast. 
I mean, that 30 minutes is going

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to be over before you even know 
it. 

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And I will be Surprised if we 
get through half of what we 

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like, have scheduled as we go 
through it. 

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Yeah. 
And so the other thing that I 

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wanted to mention, not sure when
this episode is going live, but 

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we are doing out. 
Idac podcast Community meet up. 

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We're looking at it being Monday
night, I'm sorry. 

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Just a night at Gartner. 
So, if depending on when this 

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episode goes out, if they're 
still open, Spas, while the link

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to the registration in the show 
notes, if it's not there. 

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It's because, you know, the 
episode went out late and maybe 

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it's all filled up already 
because we will have a limited 

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number of spots. 
So encourage you to get out 

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there register, if you can make 
it and we'd love to have you. 

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Yeah. 
What do you have planned? 

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You've been working on this for 
a little bit with different 

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counterparts kit. 
Can you share yet with that is 

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or do you want to wait? 
I'm going to share it so the 

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idea is that we're going to go 
to an axe throwing event. 

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So this place that we found has 
ax throwing and like retro video

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games, like Donkey Kong and Miss
Pac-Man, and stuff like that. 

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So everybody will get to be 
there. 

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Have things to do. 
Socialized will be food Etc. 

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And so I was able to line up a 
few organizations, including the

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one that you and I work for our 
SM, just sponsored the event. 

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The, the other sponsor going to 
be OCTA and one Cosmos, but it's

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an event for the listeners of 
this podcast. 

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So, feel like I work for a 
competitor of one of those three

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sponsors, I don't want to go 
there. 

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That's not the idea. 
The idea is this really about 

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the identity at the center 
podcast and the people who 

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listen to it. 
So you know consider yourself. 

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Welcome. 
Yeah definitely and you know, 

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come on man, throw axis, that's 
hot. 

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Her done that. 
I'm looking forward to it. 

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Yeah. 
So why don't we? 

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Let's see what else we got. 
We got identifiers coming up in 

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May I think you and I are 
working on getting out there for

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that. 
We got your pain identity and 

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Cloud conference from Cooper. 
Nicole is out in Europe, 

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obviously coming as well. 
I don't think we'll be at that 

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one, but that's always a great 
conference. 

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I think a lot of people get, a 
lot of value out of that one 

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too, right? 
Yeah, yeah. 

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And I think, you know, RSA is 
attended by a lot of identity 

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people as well. 
So, you know that one's coming 

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up as well. 
Well, and then we get into the 

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fall where, you know, I think 
it's probably a little too early

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to start talking about those 
conferences, but, you know, you 

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and I are kind of like 
conference junkies, like you 

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can't really come up with the 
conference that we wouldn't be 

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interested in attending. 
Yeah, I mean, it's a great way 

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to network and talk with people 
meet folks stuff like that, 

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continuing education, right 
stuff, like that. 

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And especially if we can get the
podcast out there to do stuff, 

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that's always interesting to be 
able to sit down and have 

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conversations. 
Since you know, like we've done 

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for previous conferences. 
I'm sure we'll do for future 

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ones as well. 
Absolutely. 

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All right. 
So why don't we get to our topic

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of the day? 
And I think we haven't settled 

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on a title this but my working 
title is identity and access 

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management from a cisos eyes. 
So why do we invite some Cecil 

259
00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:17,900
eyes into here? 
We've got Helen patent, she's a 

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chief information security 
officer for the Cisco security 

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business group. 
Welcome to the show Helen. 

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Yeah, thanks. 
For having me here. 

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I'm excited. 
Yeah pumps. 

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So let's get into it. 
I think one of the things that 

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we always like to do with first 
timers on our show is we kind of

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understand their identity 
journey and their background and

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kind of understanding. 
What is the origin story for 

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00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:39,400
Helen patent? 
You know Cecil and the things 

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that you've worked on in the 
past they have formed, you know 

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where you are at today is 
identity something that you 

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chose or did it Choose You? 
It chose me? 

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My whole career is a series of 
accidents and opportunities that

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00:13:51,900 --> 00:13:57,600
I wasn't planning for so I've 
been doing this security thing 

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in, in various forms for longer 
than I care to admit. 

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Now, certainly in the 90s. 
I was doing it. 

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00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:10,600
I hadn't got into the security 
space in the 90s, but a lot of 

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00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:14,400
the problems of it were identity
related, active directory, 

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00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:17,100
structures, and this and that. 
And the other thing when I got 

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into security proper it was it 
was at JPMorgan Chase. 

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00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:28,000
And I was there in the like from
And for through 2013, and 

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00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:30,000
identity for the banks was a big
deal. 

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00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:36,200
It was heavily regulated. 
It was, it was, it was a focus. 

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00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:39,700
So there are two kinds of 
identities that JPMorgan Chase. 

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There is the employee identity 
store and then of course, there 

285
00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:46,300
were customer identities my 
focus at the bank. 

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00:14:46,300 --> 00:14:49,900
There was around employee 
identity and there was a big 

287
00:14:49,900 --> 00:14:52,000
focus at the time on 
certification. 

288
00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:56,900
So I cut my teeth. 
Less on the tech of identity and

289
00:14:56,900 --> 00:14:59,400
more on the process of identity.
And this is where I got 

290
00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:03,300
introduced to Concepts like is 
identity as security function. 

291
00:15:03,300 --> 00:15:06,400
Is it a, it function, is it a 
business function? 

292
00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:10,900
Is that some combination of the 
three, you know, what does it 

293
00:15:10,900 --> 00:15:15,300
mean to have a role? 
Do we only have defined roles? 

294
00:15:15,300 --> 00:15:16,800
Does everyone have their own 
role? 

295
00:15:16,900 --> 00:15:18,800
If everyone has their own role? 
Is it a roll? 

296
00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:22,100
You know, those kinds of 
existential questions, so I was 

297
00:15:22,100 --> 00:15:25,400
at JPMorgan for a while. 
I I left there and I went to 

298
00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:28,700
higher education as a vertical 
and I went, and I was the sea. 

299
00:15:28,700 --> 00:15:32,400
So for Ohio State and there I 
learned about the joys of 

300
00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:37,200
munging together, your customer 
base, AKA your students and your

301
00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:42,100
employees and your alumni, and 
you're visiting Scholars, and 

302
00:15:42,100 --> 00:15:45,600
every, and all your vendors, and
everybody into a singular 

303
00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:48,400
identity store, which blew my 
brain. 

304
00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:51,600
So, I went from role-based 
access to attribute-based access

305
00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:53,800
to as soon as you leave, we're 
going. 

306
00:15:53,900 --> 00:15:57,000
Cut all your excess off to. 
Hey, we're gonna keep your 

307
00:15:57,000 --> 00:15:58,900
access for forever because you 
never know. 

308
00:15:58,900 --> 00:16:00,500
Someday, you may come back, like
what? 

309
00:16:00,500 --> 00:16:04,800
Like a complete 180 in terms of 
the way we do access and 

310
00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:10,600
identity and having to deal with
identity Technologies in that 

311
00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:14,500
environment is really hard. 
So, questions for Gardner, do we

312
00:16:14,500 --> 00:16:19,000
see consumer identity, and 
corporate identity? 

313
00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:23,600
Merging is is a super important 
question for me to know. 

314
00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:29,400
And then I left there and I 
joined Duo and Duo is part of 

315
00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:33,400
Cisco and I am so I am now as it
turns out the C. 

316
00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:37,100
So for the security business 
group at Cisco for those who may

317
00:16:37,100 --> 00:16:39,700
not know Cisco does more than 
cell network gear. 

318
00:16:39,700 --> 00:16:45,000
So we do a security thing and my
job is is now to protect that. 

319
00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:49,300
And so some of that is you know,
how do we do identity management

320
00:16:49,300 --> 00:16:52,500
of cloud? 
How do we what does the role of 

321
00:16:52,500 --> 00:16:56,100
identity mean in? 
Texting data stores, that don't 

322
00:16:56,100 --> 00:16:58,300
sit on our own infrastructure, 
all of that kind of stuff. 

323
00:16:58,300 --> 00:17:02,200
So much more into the tooling 
and the technology of it in this

324
00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:05,500
role, then I was in previous 
roles and all of those 

325
00:17:05,500 --> 00:17:11,599
transitions were accidental and 
just a product of timing but I 

326
00:17:11,599 --> 00:17:15,200
love identity it for me. 
Identity is the core of security

327
00:17:15,300 --> 00:17:17,300
and I will I will die on that 
hill. 

328
00:17:17,500 --> 00:17:22,200
So yeah, I financially the 
mentioned last on the tech side 

329
00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:23,700
of more in the business side of 
identity. 

330
00:17:23,900 --> 00:17:27,500
And I think this is personally, 
I think this is a weakness that 

331
00:17:27,500 --> 00:17:30,700
a lot of organizations have is 
not really understanding the 

332
00:17:30,700 --> 00:17:33,000
business of identity. 
And I think that there's a lot 

333
00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:36,500
of, you know, conferences and 
organizations that really don't 

334
00:17:36,500 --> 00:17:38,300
spend enough time in that. 
I think a lot of people try to 

335
00:17:38,300 --> 00:17:42,100
measure identity intelligence 
based on how much sam'l you 

336
00:17:42,100 --> 00:17:44,800
know, do you know how much, you 
know, open ID code? 

337
00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:47,900
Can you write in a great apps 
which is important stuff to 

338
00:17:47,900 --> 00:17:49,600
know? 
Of course, you kind of need to 

339
00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:53,300
know at least the basics of it. 
But yeah, I like to focus on the

340
00:17:53,300 --> 00:17:56,000
business side. 
Which is, I think, probably my 

341
00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:59,000
particular strength is, how do 
you run an eye in program? 

342
00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:02,400
You know what are the, I am 
program manager, things that 

343
00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:04,600
need to happen, you know? 
You're out there, you know, 

344
00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:08,700
shaking hands, kissing babies, 
you know, getting by in getting 

345
00:18:08,700 --> 00:18:10,300
budgets together, right now? 
Okay. 

346
00:18:10,300 --> 00:18:11,700
That's kind of makeup is 
examined. 

347
00:18:11,900 --> 00:18:14,100
And then I turn it over to the 
smart people, to like, you know,

348
00:18:14,100 --> 00:18:17,100
Deuce do the actual stuff, but I
think we have a blind spot in 

349
00:18:17,108 --> 00:18:20,600
the industry about the 
non-technical side of identity 

350
00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:23,600
which does us at the service. 
Because I think there's a lot of

351
00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:26,100
really Only smart people that 
would be really great for 

352
00:18:26,100 --> 00:18:28,800
identity but there's this maybe 
there's a maybe just me. 

353
00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:30,700
Maybe there's a perception that 
it's all you have to be 

354
00:18:30,700 --> 00:18:33,000
technical for the identity. 
I don't think that that's true. 

355
00:18:33,100 --> 00:18:36,700
Do you agree with that or you 
know you have different thoughts

356
00:18:36,700 --> 00:18:39,800
on it? 
Yeah, I think I'm probably 

357
00:18:40,300 --> 00:18:42,800
somewhere in the middle and 
every time I get asked this 

358
00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:44,700
question and I get this question
asked a lot. 

359
00:18:44,700 --> 00:18:47,700
I change my answer by the way so
if you've heard me on another 

360
00:18:47,700 --> 00:18:51,500
podcast and you're like this is 
a different answer is why I 

361
00:18:51,500 --> 00:18:54,800
think there's need for for both 
when I At Ohio State. 

362
00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:59,900
I had the pleasure of working 
with people who had had 

363
00:18:59,900 --> 00:19:03,800
developed some of the identity 
solutions that we use in higher 

364
00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:06,300
ed and they continue to support 
those things. 

365
00:19:06,300 --> 00:19:10,600
And higher ed has a really 
complicated identity management 

366
00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:13,200
structure and business process. 
It has to be dealt with. 

367
00:19:13,300 --> 00:19:18,300
And there were technical people 
that were right in the center of

368
00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:21,700
getting identity to work, not 
only with all these different 

369
00:19:21,700 --> 00:19:24,800
kinds of people. 
But also, So all these different

370
00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:28,700
kinds of applications and 
networking structures like as a 

371
00:19:28,700 --> 00:19:30,100
c. 
So I would have networking 

372
00:19:30,100 --> 00:19:32,800
vendors show up and go. 
What what networks do you use? 

373
00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:36,000
And I go yes. 
Because we literally had some 

374
00:19:36,100 --> 00:19:39,700
every piece of every vendors, 
networking equipment ever. 

375
00:19:39,900 --> 00:19:42,900
And they all had different ways 
of managing identity and so you 

376
00:19:42,900 --> 00:19:45,700
say single sign-on and well, 
what a single sign-on mean. 

377
00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,700
So, you know, being able to work
with developers who were dealing

378
00:19:49,700 --> 00:19:51,300
with shibboleth and other 
things. 

379
00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:55,300
I learned so much and these 
people They've forgotten more 

380
00:19:55,300 --> 00:19:59,000
technical identity information 
than I've gotten my you're like,

381
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:05,100
I can't, I'm in awe, right? 
And where we messed up with 

382
00:20:05,100 --> 00:20:07,400
identity was never on the 
technical side. 

383
00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,500
It was always on the business 
process side and I'll give you a

384
00:20:10,500 --> 00:20:13,000
story around this security 
story. 

385
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:15,800
We decided I would never do this
again. 

386
00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:19,700
By the way, we decided we would 
fish our own people and so we 

387
00:20:19,700 --> 00:20:22,300
went to our identity teams and 
we said give us everyone. 

388
00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:25,400
And so being the literal All 
developers, they are, they gave 

389
00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:27,500
us. 
Everybody turns out, we'd 

390
00:20:27,500 --> 00:20:33,200
included people who had died in 
our fishing pool and some of 

391
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,800
them responded, huh? 
And the reason, some of them 

392
00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:42,100
responded was that the employee 
had died but their spouse wanted

393
00:20:42,100 --> 00:20:45,400
to use their OSU identity to get
football tickets. 

394
00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:52,000
So, the spouse kept the account 
active and because the employee 

395
00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:57,000
was an, was a Ray, who was 
alumni, who was a professor 

396
00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:00,300
emeritus, I who would come back 
and guest lecturer every now. 

397
00:21:00,300 --> 00:21:04,200
And again, the HR department was
not managing those identities 

398
00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:06,900
because they weren't active 
employees, but neither was 

399
00:21:06,900 --> 00:21:09,300
anybody else. 
So we had all these sort of 

400
00:21:09,500 --> 00:21:14,500
emeriti Faculty, who ultimately 
would die, but their accounts 

401
00:21:14,500 --> 00:21:16,700
never would. 
And their accounts were being 

402
00:21:16,700 --> 00:21:19,400
actively used for things that 
weren't caught at the central 

403
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:22,500
organization, right? 
So all of which is to say 

404
00:21:22,900 --> 00:21:26,200
because I did this, Security 
effort of trying to fish people.

405
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:29,700
We found out that we had this 
business process problem where 

406
00:21:29,700 --> 00:21:33,300
when people retired HR stop 
thinking them as current 

407
00:21:33,300 --> 00:21:36,900
employees and I had to go and 
fix the HR lifecycle problem in 

408
00:21:36,900 --> 00:21:39,900
order to fix my identity 
problem, in order to fix my 

409
00:21:39,900 --> 00:21:44,000
security problem. 
So it's not about the tooling, 

410
00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:47,600
it's about the people in the 
process and then and then it's 

411
00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:50,400
about the tooling. 
So we need people who can do all

412
00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:53,600
three. 
Actually, I would imagine that's

413
00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:56,800
a He interesting bar chart or 
like pie pie chart to look at 

414
00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:00,600
was like here's the age of our 
respondents, you know, 02:21. 

415
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:04,800
And then there's like, dead and 
dead, a slice of the pie, right?

416
00:22:05,500 --> 00:22:07,000
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
It's like mmm. 

417
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:08,400
Interesting. 
How that works. 

418
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:12,000
I guess OSU to, you know, the 
Ohio State University, right? 

419
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:13,800
Football tickets are probably 
pretty value. 

420
00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:16,200
I'd imagine since this one of 
the Premier programs at least in

421
00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:20,100
the u.s. right, the show. 
Yeah, yeah, it's great. 

422
00:22:20,300 --> 00:22:25,000
So Helen you're one of the 
Stroke your ego here a little 

423
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:26,500
bit. 
You're one of the big brains I 

424
00:22:26,500 --> 00:22:30,100
think in the identity space but 
I think there's a lot of big 

425
00:22:30,100 --> 00:22:33,400
brains in the I do space. 
But you put your thoughts out 

426
00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:35,200
there. 
You've got a Blog. 

427
00:22:35,700 --> 00:22:40,400
I've been looking at it and it 
seems to me, one of the main 

428
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,300
topics that you blog on is the 
intersection of identity and 

429
00:22:44,300 --> 00:22:46,800
ethics. 
Can you explain to us at a high 

430
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:48,300
level? 
What that is, what? 

431
00:22:48,300 --> 00:22:51,100
That means. 
Yes. 

432
00:22:51,100 --> 00:22:56,900
Oh, I geek out. 
Out on technology ethics and so 

433
00:22:56,900 --> 00:22:59,100
things like artificial 
intelligence are right now, 

434
00:22:59,100 --> 00:23:02,800
completely ringing my Bell 
because there is like land mines

435
00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:04,700
all over the place to mix my 
analogies. 

436
00:23:06,100 --> 00:23:12,500
I started blogging because I was
wrestling with topics that I 

437
00:23:12,500 --> 00:23:17,300
just couldn't go and find a 
LinkedIn learning school on and 

438
00:23:17,300 --> 00:23:20,600
in our industry and identity and
insecurity in general, there's 

439
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,300
so much sort of community 
knowledge out there and I was 

440
00:23:23,300 --> 00:23:29,100
trying to Tap into it. 
So two things happened when this

441
00:23:29,100 --> 00:23:30,900
was still. 
When I was back at Ohio State 

442
00:23:30,900 --> 00:23:35,400
won, I was asked to take on 
management of the digital 

443
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:37,900
accessibility team. 
So this is about making our 

444
00:23:37,900 --> 00:23:42,600
Technologies accessible to 
people primarily through the 

445
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:46,300
Disabilities Act legislation. 
So people with visually 

446
00:23:46,300 --> 00:23:51,100
impaired, functionally impaired,
you know, whatever but it also 

447
00:23:51,100 --> 00:23:54,400
coincided with a lot of stuff. 
Around. 

448
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:56,600
How do we do? 
Diversity, and equity, and 

449
00:23:56,600 --> 00:24:00,400
inclusion, in organizations, 
within a company. 

450
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:06,100
But also for our customers and I
was managing this identity team 

451
00:24:07,100 --> 00:24:10,700
and all of those topics of 
equity and inclusion and 

452
00:24:10,700 --> 00:24:15,500
accessibility and security all 
seem to fall into my lap all at 

453
00:24:15,500 --> 00:24:17,900
once. 
And so, a lot of the blogging 

454
00:24:17,900 --> 00:24:22,100
that I do tries to pull those 
things apart and then the second

455
00:24:22,100 --> 00:24:25,100
thing that happened was, when 
denied Either who became my boss

456
00:24:25,100 --> 00:24:30,500
when I joined Duo and Cisco came
to be a keynote speaker at Ohio,

457
00:24:30,500 --> 00:24:32,800
State, for one of our 
cybersecurity days. 

458
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,800
And she talked about being the 
daughter of Aging, parents, and 

459
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:39,900
trying to manage help them 
manage their affairs, from a 

460
00:24:39,908 --> 00:24:44,700
distance, when she wasn't them, 
and the banks had no way of 

461
00:24:44,700 --> 00:24:47,200
provisioning her access to act 
on their behalf. 

462
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:51,100
Without having her having to 
have her, go to a lawyer and get

463
00:24:51,100 --> 00:24:57,100
power of attorney like the path.
To her being a legitimate 

464
00:24:57,500 --> 00:25:02,100
executive for her parents. 
Technically was really 

465
00:25:02,100 --> 00:25:04,300
difficult. 
And at the same time, she was 

466
00:25:04,300 --> 00:25:08,400
also the mother of a Teenage 
child and she was managing the 

467
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:12,600
Affairs of the teenage child. 
And the same thing was applying.

468
00:25:12,900 --> 00:25:17,600
And so what if you combine all 
that Equity access inclusion 

469
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,500
question with the, how are we 
living our lives today? 

470
00:25:20,500 --> 00:25:25,700
Question it really sent me down 
there This this path of are we 

471
00:25:25,700 --> 00:25:28,500
designing our systems and 
identities, right in the middle 

472
00:25:28,500 --> 00:25:31,400
of it? 
Are we designing our systems in 

473
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:33,200
such a way that people can live 
the lives? 

474
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:38,300
They want to lead using the 
systems that we have and I 

475
00:25:38,300 --> 00:25:42,800
haven't I'm not hugely 
optimistic that we are actually 

476
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,200
doing that at the moment. 
And so I want to continue to 

477
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:50,400
have that conversation globally.
To see how we can collectively 

478
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:52,300
deal with this because they 
don't think we're going to solve

479
00:25:52,300 --> 00:25:54,500
this as individual companies. 
Technologist. 

480
00:25:54,500 --> 00:25:59,100
I think it's going to have to be
a collective effort, so I know 

481
00:25:59,100 --> 00:26:02,100
there are places doing it, but, 
but that's why I blog about it. 

482
00:26:02,100 --> 00:26:04,800
Just to get people thinking 
about it and raising the 

483
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,600
questions. 
Probably keep going back to your

484
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:11,000
experience at OSU, but I've 
worked with a lot of large 

485
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:16,200
research institutions and the 
identity management challenge is

486
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,300
probably more difficult than any
other industry. 

487
00:26:19,500 --> 00:26:23,800
Now, Financial Services, you've 
got the regulatory, The 

488
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,700
environment and that is like 
insane price. 

489
00:26:27,700 --> 00:26:33,400
So you went from the higher ed 
or there's basically no 

490
00:26:33,500 --> 00:26:36,900
regulatory except maybe FERPA Oh
you mean by that? 

491
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,500
So let me run this down. 
I'll student data. 

492
00:26:44,500 --> 00:26:47,900
Al financial aid is regulated 
like a bank where subject to 

493
00:26:47,900 --> 00:26:52,600
glba our hospitals. 
HIPAA, we got that our retail 

494
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:58,200
and we got millions of A retail 
PC, I know, except for all of 

495
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:02,800
our nuclear reactors and other 
things that we've got going on, 

496
00:27:03,100 --> 00:27:05,700
all the FAA stuff. 
Because guess what, we had an 

497
00:27:05,700 --> 00:27:11,000
airport of our own leak. 
If there is a regulation, cmmc 

498
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:15,300
fedramp blah blah blah. 
It's happening on Research 

499
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:19,300
universities but what we do is 
segment our environment. 

500
00:27:19,300 --> 00:27:22,400
So all the PCI stuffs over here.
All the hippest stuff is over 

501
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:24,500
there and what's really Ali 
confusing. 

502
00:27:24,500 --> 00:27:28,500
Now, is that all these? 
It used to be that the 

503
00:27:28,500 --> 00:27:30,800
individual colleges were 
segmented. 

504
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:31,600
So you could go. 
Okay. 

505
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:33,400
Helen works for College of 
Medicine. 

506
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:34,600
She's going to be subject to 
HIPAA. 

507
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:36,300
We're going to manage her 
identity that way. 

508
00:27:37,100 --> 00:27:39,800
Well, the problem is now that 
the College of Medicine is doing

509
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,700
shared research with the College
of Engineering and the School of

510
00:27:42,700 --> 00:27:46,400
Dance, go figure and all of them
have different regulatory 

511
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:50,400
profiles, and now we've got to 
manage to multiple regulatory 

512
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:56,900
profiles its when I left JP, I 
thought I was going to higher ed

513
00:27:56,900 --> 00:28:01,500
which would be easier. 
Oh God, I was so so wrong. 

514
00:28:01,700 --> 00:28:04,200
Like Financial Services is high 
pressure. 

515
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,000
I get it. 
But from a security and identity

516
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,700
perspective, it is easy peasy. 
You want hard? 

517
00:28:09,700 --> 00:28:14,100
Go to universities is crazy. 
Okay, sorry, I retract that 

518
00:28:14,100 --> 00:28:17,200
comment but we hey we're doing 
this conversation real-time, 

519
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,500
right? 
So, but really where I was going

520
00:28:20,500 --> 00:28:23,500
with the conversation was around
to decentralized. 

521
00:28:23,700 --> 00:28:28,600
Nature of, you know, 
universities, you typically find

522
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:32,900
that there is a kind of like a 
corporate it where you have like

523
00:28:33,100 --> 00:28:35,900
a net ID or maybe it's your 
buck. 

524
00:28:35,900 --> 00:28:38,600
I hid for Ohio State. 
I'm not sure. 

525
00:28:38,700 --> 00:28:41,300
I made that up actually, the 
Buckeye date. 

526
00:28:41,300 --> 00:28:45,400
Well guest. 
All right, and then you have all

527
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,200
of your colleges and Departments
of rub. 

528
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:49,400
Basically run their own, it 
Department, right? 

529
00:28:49,500 --> 00:28:53,600
And so, Where are you going with
this decentralized? 

530
00:28:54,700 --> 00:28:58,800
Decentralization is tying it to 
the idea of decentralized 

531
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:04,000
identity verifiable credentials 
and kind of the future of that. 

532
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,400
So I'm not sure if there is a 
tie in but I wanted to just 

533
00:29:07,500 --> 00:29:10,500
explore that with you. 
Do you see where I'm going with 

534
00:29:10,500 --> 00:29:11,800
this? 
I do. 

535
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:15,600
And I will say that in the eight
years that I was in higher ed. 

536
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,900
I did start to see a move at 
least from a technology 

537
00:29:18,900 --> 00:29:22,800
architecture perspective to more
of a Realized function. 

538
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:25,600
So there's a lot of downward 
pressure on universities to be 

539
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,200
more efficient in their dollars,
so that we're not charging our 

540
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,600
students so much tuition. 
And so there was this 

541
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,300
recognition that having multiple
it departments in multiple 

542
00:29:34,300 --> 00:29:35,700
places, didn't really make 
sense. 

543
00:29:35,700 --> 00:29:40,000
So, one of the things we did at 
Ohio State, for example, every 

544
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:44,600
college and Ohio State has lots 
of colleges had their own active

545
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:48,100
directories. 
Probably more than one, right? 

546
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:52,900
We had a big program where if We
couldn't get rid of those active

547
00:29:52,900 --> 00:29:56,800
directories, we at least linked 
them so that identity management

548
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:58,900
cascaded through the active 
directories. 

549
00:29:58,900 --> 00:30:03,200
And it wasn't just an 
independent identity for every 

550
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:06,500
college and that kind of thing. 
So, we centralized and 

551
00:30:06,500 --> 00:30:09,700
rationalized to the degree we 
could. 

552
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,200
But there's a lot that goes on 
in universities that you just 

553
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,100
doesn't make sense to do that 
for sure. 

554
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:19,700
The other thing that's happening
sort of is this concept of bring

555
00:30:19,700 --> 00:30:22,500
your own identity? 
Is that a Is that a way of 

556
00:30:22,500 --> 00:30:25,200
dealing with it? 
So in universities, more than 

557
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:29,100
any other verticals, we're 
seeing this trend of people that

558
00:30:29,100 --> 00:30:32,600
want to have a separate identity
at work, and digital identity at

559
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:34,500
work, and a separate one at 
home. 

560
00:30:34,500 --> 00:30:38,500
They just want the same that 
they want it to be all the same.

561
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:44,700
So is there an opportunity to do
distributed identities and be 

562
00:30:44,700 --> 00:30:47,700
able to use that both in a 
consumer sense, and in a 

563
00:30:47,700 --> 00:30:52,400
corporate sense, I think you'll 
see that to be played with at 

564
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:54,800
universities. 
There's certainly also a sort of

565
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:59,800
a secondary thing that says, can
we put transcripts on the 

566
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:03,200
blockchain and so rather, if you
have to go to a new school 

567
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,000
because maybe your undergrad was
at one school and you want to do

568
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,800
your Masters and you doctor at 
another school started having to

569
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,300
go back to your old school and 
say, please can you forward the 

570
00:31:11,300 --> 00:31:13,500
transcript from from here to 
there? 

571
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:18,400
Can you just bring your own use 
it where you need to use it and 

572
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,300
be able to just you know, shop 
yourself around a little bit. 

573
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:23,600
We're seeing that on that 
transcript side. 

574
00:31:24,100 --> 00:31:29,000
I think the concept is the same 
on the digital side of 

575
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:32,700
identities. 
The infrastructure behind. 

576
00:31:32,700 --> 00:31:35,500
It's pretty massive though. 
So, and again it goes back to 

577
00:31:35,500 --> 00:31:37,900
people process and tools. 
It's not just the technology, 

578
00:31:37,900 --> 00:31:39,500
the process. 
And the people have to be able 

579
00:31:39,500 --> 00:31:41,800
to handle that too. 
So, I think we're a long way 

580
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:45,900
from it, but I would say look to
universities as a, as a testing 

581
00:31:45,900 --> 00:31:48,000
ground for a lot of that stuff. 
For sure thing. 

582
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,300
Testing grounds are great idea. 
You know, it's kind of like, I 

583
00:31:51,300 --> 00:31:54,100
favor the term self Sovereign, 
identity over. 

584
00:31:54,100 --> 00:31:56,000
Bring your own identity. 
Yeah, that's great. 

585
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,200
Been around long enough. 
To remember, bring your own 

586
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,400
identity used to mean log in 
with your Book ID. 

587
00:32:01,700 --> 00:32:07,600
And I don't even as a student, I
don't want my Facebook. 

588
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:14,800
Which I would think most gen Z's
and more recent don't even use 

589
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,800
Facebook anymore, but they used 
social media and you want some 

590
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,800
separation between your 
professional life and your 

591
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:25,600
personal life. 
But what got me thinking about 

592
00:32:25,700 --> 00:32:29,200
this topic? 
A lot was, I heard that there's 

593
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:35,200
some Legislation potential that 
would be going through or up for

594
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:41,000
a vote anyway that you know 
basically they say okay you have

595
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,200
to be a certain age to sign up 
for social media. 

596
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:48,000
Now conceptually we can say 
whether or not that's a good 

597
00:32:48,008 --> 00:32:51,500
idea. 
But ultimately if regardless of 

598
00:32:51,500 --> 00:32:53,800
what the age is, what are the 
penalties? 

599
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:57,500
If the company drops the ball, 
unless the person who created an

600
00:32:57,500 --> 00:33:00,300
account and how is that going 
to? 

601
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:04,300
To work behind the scenes. 
So I'm wondering like, okay. 

602
00:33:04,300 --> 00:33:07,400
Well, you know, if the penalty 
is like, hey, for everybody who 

603
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:11,800
you let take an account whose 
under this age, if it's a ten 

604
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:14,700
thousand dollar fine. 
I mean, this could really rack 

605
00:33:14,700 --> 00:33:17,300
up if you don't have good 
processes to stop it. 

606
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:21,400
So I'm thinking maybe that's an 
area where these self Sovereign 

607
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:26,300
IDs, really can can take effect 
decentralized identity 

608
00:33:26,300 --> 00:33:29,800
verifiable credentials. 
You know, can we get to a point 

609
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:34,400
where It's like your government 
issued ID or some reputable 

610
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:38,500
organization can vouch for the 
fact that you are of a certain 

611
00:33:38,500 --> 00:33:41,500
age. 
For example, it's an it's a 

612
00:33:41,500 --> 00:33:45,400
super complicated topic and I'm 
watching it with interest. 

613
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:48,900
So in the u.s. we already have 
the copper regulation which is 

614
00:33:48,900 --> 00:33:51,500
about protecting minors online, 
right? 

615
00:33:51,500 --> 00:33:55,000
Which already says things. 
Like if you're under I'm going 

616
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,200
to get my age is wrong. 
I'm not a lawyer don't quote me 

617
00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:59,800
on this, but if you're under the
age of, I think it's 16 your 

618
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:02,300
parents. 
Have to consent to you being on 

619
00:34:02,300 --> 00:34:05,200
an online platform and how well 
is that working out for us? 

620
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,500
There's that sort of question, 
but there is also the question 

621
00:34:08,500 --> 00:34:14,000
of if we're going to do 
Sovereign identities, does that 

622
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:21,100
presume that the person who owns
that identity is legally able to

623
00:34:21,100 --> 00:34:25,300
own that identity? 
Like, what what makes someone 

624
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:29,000
eligible to be the owner of a 
sovereign ID? 

625
00:34:30,100 --> 00:34:33,900
And if it's legal, well then 
they can't have a sovereign ID 

626
00:34:33,900 --> 00:34:38,000
until they're 18 depending on 
the state or 21 rate. 

627
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,600
There's no Federal Regulation 
that says, legal age of owning 

628
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:43,600
digital assets. 
Maybe they're going to need to 

629
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,500
create one. 
So there's sort of a question 

630
00:34:47,500 --> 00:34:52,400
of, are you legally able able to
enter into a sort of a 

631
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,400
contractual agreement? 
That says, my sovereign identity

632
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,100
is going to be used to access 
this corporate thing whether 

633
00:34:58,100 --> 00:35:01,600
it's tic toc or Of our there's 
that. 

634
00:35:01,900 --> 00:35:05,800
And then there's also a question
of usability is the technology 

635
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,800
to a point where a minor a 
ten-year-old or an 

636
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:14,300
eleven-year-old can actually use
this thing and let's not get 

637
00:35:14,300 --> 00:35:18,400
into the conversation of digital
accessibility of sovereign 

638
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:20,700
identities which is a whole 
different ball of wax. 

639
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:26,800
But let's just say for the 
typical ten-year-old, how easy 

640
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:30,600
is it going to have to be to be 
usable and Have we got those 

641
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:34,100
structures in place and right 
now the answer is no, we don't. 

642
00:35:34,300 --> 00:35:38,900
And we're going to have to think
of all of those things before 

643
00:35:38,900 --> 00:35:41,100
we're going to be able to bring 
Sovereign identities to the 

644
00:35:41,100 --> 00:35:44,200
table. 
Yeah, I think you're referring 

645
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:48,800
to the Copa regulations which I 
believe is 13, but I'm not sure 

646
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,000
what the penalties are. 
If you let somebody in who's 

647
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:57,000
under 13, it's interesting. 
I went to a Jack Daniels website

648
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:01,600
if you know me that you're not 
surprised but It's you know 

649
00:36:01,700 --> 00:36:05,700
first screen was splash page. 
Are you at least 21 years old, 

650
00:36:05,700 --> 00:36:08,600
or put your birthday and 
something like that, right? 

651
00:36:09,700 --> 00:36:12,300
What's the summary from lying? 
Nothing? 

652
00:36:12,300 --> 00:36:13,100
No. 
Come on. 

653
00:36:13,100 --> 00:36:14,600
Everyone tells the truth on the 
internet. 

654
00:36:14,900 --> 00:36:17,200
Yeah. 
Well and quite frankly every 

655
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:20,200
security person ever never puts 
their real birthday, right? 

656
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:24,600
We all lie like everyone's 
birthday is like, 1st of January

657
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:28,600
1985 or something, right? 
So old enough to be dangerous, 

658
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:33,800
but not my real birthday. 
Like there is no way to validate

659
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:37,400
that the information being put 
into any of these fields is 

660
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:39,300
accurate. 
It's all self-reported. 

661
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:41,800
So why should kids be any 
different? 

662
00:36:41,900 --> 00:36:45,600
I want to ask you a question 
going back to you know 

663
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:50,200
University is a breeding ground 
or testing ground or for the 

664
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:53,800
decentralized identity. 
It got me thinking about and 

665
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,400
going back to my original 
opening dialogue, with Jeff 

666
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,500
about work from home. 
You know I started in the 

667
00:36:59,500 --> 00:37:03,800
workplace in the 90s couldn't 
have liked working from home was

668
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:10,100
like it was just not done, you 
know if it snowed You can still 

669
00:37:10,100 --> 00:37:13,500
take a snow day and not a right 
now days. 

670
00:37:13,500 --> 00:37:17,200
Like this knows it's like, 
you're expected to be online 

671
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:22,800
like any other day. 
So there's the technology aspect

672
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:25,100
part of it was, you know, 
working back then. 

673
00:37:25,100 --> 00:37:27,500
If you had a laptop you could 
bring home, you were in the 

674
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:30,900
minority, right? 
And you were connecting with a 

675
00:37:30,908 --> 00:37:35,900
modem, so the technology has 
gotten a lot better but also, 

676
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,400
you know, entering the workforce
at that time as a young person. 

677
00:37:39,500 --> 00:37:42,500
And it's kind of like there were
people who worked in that 

678
00:37:42,500 --> 00:37:48,500
company for 30, 40 years and 
people just didn't do that sort 

679
00:37:48,500 --> 00:37:51,900
of thing. 
Now you've got folks who are 

680
00:37:51,900 --> 00:37:55,900
coming up who, you know, there 
were, you know, a little kids in

681
00:37:55,900 --> 00:38:00,000
the backseat on iPad and they 
had technology as part of the 

682
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,500
life from the, from the very 
beginning of their life. 

683
00:38:03,500 --> 00:38:06,900
And I'm wondering, you know, 
this push for. 

684
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:11,000
I-i'm me, I want to use my 
Generally how much of that is 

685
00:38:11,300 --> 00:38:14,600
the technology versus? 
How much of that is being driven

686
00:38:15,100 --> 00:38:19,800
by, you know, the fact that they
are, you know, digital first 

687
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,400
their whole life. 
It's a super good question. 

688
00:38:22,700 --> 00:38:27,300
I have I challenge the whole, 
they're digital Natives and and 

689
00:38:27,300 --> 00:38:30,900
they just know what to do know. 
They don't like, we're old Duo 

690
00:38:30,900 --> 00:38:36,500
out at Ohio State and we rolled 
it out to everybody. 

691
00:38:36,500 --> 00:38:39,100
Pretty much all at once. 
We rolled it to all our faculty 

692
00:38:39,100 --> 00:38:39,900
and staff. 
Staff. 

693
00:38:39,900 --> 00:38:43,500
And by the way, a third of our 
student body are also staff 

694
00:38:43,500 --> 00:38:46,100
because we pay them to work on 
campus, right? 

695
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:50,300
The biggest issue we had in 
rolling out Duo was not using 

696
00:38:50,300 --> 00:38:54,000
Duo the biggest issue. 
We had was helping people find 

697
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:58,400
the app store on their phone 
find the app store. 

698
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,800
These are our digital natives 
finding the App Store really 

699
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:05,400
rate. 
So the two year old who's in the

700
00:39:05,408 --> 00:39:08,700
back of the car seat with an 
iPad, I guarantee you is not 

701
00:39:08,700 --> 00:39:11,300
going to be using a nice An iPad
when they turn 18 and they show 

702
00:39:11,300 --> 00:39:13,600
up in the work force because 
iPads won't exist in. 

703
00:39:14,300 --> 00:39:19,800
So, the, the technology they're 
learning May probably will not 

704
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,400
be the technology they have to 
work with. 

705
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:25,300
And this is true for our 
teenagers and our college 

706
00:39:25,300 --> 00:39:31,500
students today. 
So, You know, hopefully by the 

707
00:39:31,500 --> 00:39:35,500
time they become 18 year olds 
and going into the workforce or 

708
00:39:35,500 --> 00:39:39,700
21, year olds or whatever that 
we do have Sovereign identities,

709
00:39:40,100 --> 00:39:41,600
but they won't have grown up 
with it. 

710
00:39:41,700 --> 00:39:45,200
It'll arrive when they're like 
14 or 15. 

711
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:48,600
So they're in there is much in 
the dark as this 50 year old 

712
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:52,500
woman is sitting here, right? 
Because the technology is 

713
00:39:52,500 --> 00:39:55,200
changing too fast. 
What the technology is doing? 

714
00:39:55,500 --> 00:39:58,500
It's making it easier to use 
because I remember, What tech 

715
00:39:58,500 --> 00:40:02,000
was like in the in the 90s I had
to build my own PC and I mean 

716
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:05,900
the whole box not like I just 
went to Micro Center and got a 

717
00:40:05,900 --> 00:40:09,600
box and plugged it in and work 
like this whole Self Service 

718
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:13,300
thing that we do for people. 
Now, it's sort of like cars, you

719
00:40:13,300 --> 00:40:16,500
know, in the old days you had to
build your own car and be your 

720
00:40:16,500 --> 00:40:23,200
own mechanic and now, like you 
don't, you should probably, but 

721
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:26,800
you don't and, and we're doing 
the same thing with text, so 

722
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:28,000
we're calling all these kids 
did. 

723
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:31,100
Will - no no we've just made the
tech easier to use and by the 

724
00:40:31,100 --> 00:40:34,900
way, a particularly in the 
identity space, the people that 

725
00:40:34,900 --> 00:40:37,300
really know identity. 
They're about to retire. 

726
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:42,800
So we've got a knowledge 
retirement Cliff that is about 

727
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:46,700
to happen in Security in 
identity in some of the 

728
00:40:46,700 --> 00:40:50,200
technology fields that I'm not 
sure we're quite ready to deal 

729
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:52,100
with and that's a whole 
different topic by the way. 

730
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:57,900
But but yeah, it's it's it's 
going to be a thing. 

731
00:40:58,100 --> 00:41:02,100
NG and I don't think our 
schools. 

732
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:05,700
I don't think our K through 12 
or our colleges are preparing 

733
00:41:05,700 --> 00:41:08,200
our students properly for what 
they're going to be facing 

734
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:10,400
digitally and from an identity 
perspective. 

735
00:41:10,900 --> 00:41:15,300
They're just not Yeah, I 
couldn't agree more but 

736
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:19,900
hopefully the answers are my 
next question is not so dark and

737
00:41:19,900 --> 00:41:23,200
dystopian because I want to know
what is the future look like. 

738
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:28,600
I mean it seems like the 
Technology's there that you 

739
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:33,900
know, it could recognize you tie
you to a record or identity. 

740
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:37,700
I mean this could get to the 
point where it's very automatic 

741
00:41:37,700 --> 00:41:40,200
that you know, maybe goes even 
Beyond. 

742
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:45,700
I would assume some point it 
goes Beyond the point of self 

743
00:41:45,700 --> 00:41:49,800
Sovereign identity that, you 
know, it just could recognize 

744
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:52,900
you and tie you back to your 
hell and patent your Jim 

745
00:41:52,900 --> 00:41:54,000
McDonald. 
Etc. 

746
00:41:54,300 --> 00:41:58,300
But I think there's the 
counterbalance, which is that at

747
00:41:58,300 --> 00:42:02,900
least today we expect some level
of privacy, right? 

748
00:42:02,900 --> 00:42:06,500
That's why we don't, you know, 
agree with the idea of like, 

749
00:42:06,500 --> 00:42:10,200
you're walking in the mall and 
there's cameras watching you and

750
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:12,200
just identifying you and knowing
everywhere. 

751
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:15,900
You go because we expect some 
level of privacy. 

752
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:19,100
What do you see in the future? 
I mean, do you see the this 

753
00:42:19,100 --> 00:42:23,500
privacy wall breaking down and 
Technology over? 

754
00:42:23,500 --> 00:42:26,600
Is it a good future or a 
dystopian future? 

755
00:42:26,900 --> 00:42:29,700
So you wanted something that was
positive and uplifting GM. 

756
00:42:29,700 --> 00:42:33,300
And I'm about to go deep back 
down into this dope, Ian angst, 

757
00:42:33,300 --> 00:42:37,800
and despair with this question. 
I have to tell you, I know it's 

758
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,900
okay. 
You're okay, Helen, this is par 

759
00:42:40,900 --> 00:42:42,600
for the course for Jim. 
He loves to bring this down 

760
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:47,000
here. 
There is a lot of work being 

761
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:51,300
done around how to manage this 
balance between privacy and 

762
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:56,100
access and privacy and 
convenience which sort of parts 

763
00:42:56,100 --> 00:42:58,800
of this conversation, but 
they're the people who are 

764
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,100
thinking about it. 
I'm going to generalize really 

765
00:43:01,100 --> 00:43:03,700
badly here and I'm sure there's 
people out here who don't fit 

766
00:43:03,700 --> 00:43:06,000
this mold. 
But in general, the people 

767
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:09,100
thinking about these questions 
are sitting in think tanks and 

768
00:43:09,100 --> 00:43:11,600
universe. 
These are not practitioners and 

769
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,000
the people who are Building 
Technology and other 

770
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:17,700
practitioners of the day-to-day,
don't have time to think about 

771
00:43:17,700 --> 00:43:21,200
these things. 
Deeply and strategically, and 

772
00:43:21,300 --> 00:43:24,400
we've got no regulation right 
now that deals with it, like the

773
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:27,900
Privacy regulation. 
He's I can sum up every privacy 

774
00:43:27,900 --> 00:43:33,100
reg ever and it is don't lose 
any pii. 

775
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:37,100
Like, we can get into 
definitions of what pi is. 

776
00:43:37,500 --> 00:43:42,200
And you know what the definition
of lost is, but as far as 

777
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:46,700
regulations, he's concerned, 
it's about confidentiality, not 

778
00:43:46,700 --> 00:43:50,200
the right of privacy. 
It's not, there's no regulation 

779
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:53,800
that says as a company. 
You can't hold someone's 

780
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:58,200
privacy, Hostage to convenience,
like someone should have as much

781
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:02,500
convenience as anybody else and 
be able to have control over 

782
00:44:02,500 --> 00:44:04,000
what they want to share and how 
they want to. 

783
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:08,800
Share, share it, right. 
But we're not doing that yet. 

784
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:12,100
And so right now Technologies 
plowing ahead at a million miles

785
00:44:12,100 --> 00:44:14,600
an hour and the people who are 
thinking about, what would it 

786
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:19,800
take from a regulatory 
operational framework, kind of 

787
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:22,700
way to make this work. 
They are not. 

788
00:44:23,300 --> 00:44:26,500
They are not in sync and they're
not talking to the degree they 

789
00:44:26,500 --> 00:44:30,000
should. 
And so, I think we're going to 

790
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:34,700
continue to see privacy thrown 
up as a barrier to Ecology 

791
00:44:34,700 --> 00:44:37,700
progress. 
But I think the bigger issue 

792
00:44:37,700 --> 00:44:40,300
isn't with the consumer 
interface, which is where we're 

793
00:44:40,300 --> 00:44:42,800
seeing this. 
The bigger issue is with the 

794
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:48,100
data analytics and the data 
control that goes on behind the 

795
00:44:48,100 --> 00:44:50,000
scenes. 
So a lot of the Privacy stuff is

796
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:53,400
like when it when a consumer 
goes to your website, they 

797
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:56,200
should be able to choose which 
cookies that are activate. 

798
00:44:57,300 --> 00:44:59,500
That's not their biggest. 
Privacy risk, their biggest 

799
00:44:59,500 --> 00:45:02,800
privacy risk, is the fact that 
you can go and buy Healthcare 

800
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:05,500
information online. 
Line that is meant to be 

801
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:07,900
anonymized. 
But actually, if you look at the

802
00:45:07,900 --> 00:45:10,100
data, you can find out who it 
is. 

803
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:14,500
Who the Australian woman sees 
who's sitting in Columbus Ohio, 

804
00:45:14,500 --> 00:45:18,100
who just went to the doctors and
found something that she would 

805
00:45:18,100 --> 00:45:20,100
like to keep be kept private. 
Thank you very much. 

806
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:24,700
It's all out there. 
So we need, we need again, 

807
00:45:24,700 --> 00:45:28,600
people process and tools, the 
whole back end process of, who 

808
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:30,300
knows what. 
And what they do with that 

809
00:45:30,300 --> 00:45:34,400
information is the bigger risk. 
That I don't think we've Not 

810
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:36,600
solved yet. 
Jeff, do you have any thoughts 

811
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:39,000
on that topic? 
I mean how and I think a tire 

812
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:43,200
think are thinking the same 
lines, here is I guess the other

813
00:45:43,207 --> 00:45:47,200
thing I'll add is a lot of these
controls that I see, I feel like

814
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:49,700
our first show. 
They don't really do anything 

815
00:45:49,700 --> 00:45:54,000
and they're not, they don't they
don't make an impact. 

816
00:45:54,300 --> 00:45:57,100
Okay? 
Now every website I go to has 

817
00:45:57,100 --> 00:46:00,800
this stupid cookie thing that 
either I can click OK. 

818
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:05,300
Or I can X out of it or I can 
hit the The really small button 

819
00:46:05,700 --> 00:46:08,200
that says, let me go manage my 
cookies and then do a bunch of 

820
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:10,100
things before I get to. 
The thing that I want to get to.

821
00:46:10,900 --> 00:46:16,500
It's a usability problem. 
It just I'm glad you hit that 

822
00:46:16,500 --> 00:46:20,000
one Helen because I find those 
so irritating and so useless 

823
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:24,000
that they just it doesn't make 
any sense, right? 

824
00:46:24,300 --> 00:46:31,600
So technology can can help and 
Technology can also enable Bad 

825
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:35,800
things and people have to make 
decisions around that. 

826
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:41,500
And again, I've always been a, 
my sandbox moment is, we need 

827
00:46:41,500 --> 00:46:44,800
practitioners to have a voice in
to some of the think tanks and 

828
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:47,700
some of the policy engines that 
are going on, in identity, and 

829
00:46:47,700 --> 00:46:51,600
in all kinds of security areas 
and the practitioners are oft 

830
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:54,800
practicing and they don't have 
time to do this other stuff. 

831
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:59,300
And we got to find a way to 
bring them together because the 

832
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:02,400
you know, those really smart 
People working on shibboleth at 

833
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:07,600
Ohio State, for example, have 
all kinds of input into what we 

834
00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:11,000
need to be doing to be managing 
identities, in a secure and 

835
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:14,100
private way, but they haven't 
got time to go up to Capitol 

836
00:47:14,100 --> 00:47:15,800
Hill and talk to a senator about
it. 

837
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:17,600
We you know, we've got to find 
those bridges. 

838
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:21,100
Yeah good luck trying to talk to
anybody. 

839
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:24,500
There's actually going to make 
it happen in your role as a c. 

840
00:47:24,500 --> 00:47:27,800
So I guess what are some of the 
threats that keep you up at 

841
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:31,300
night, you know, from a security
perspective or I Identity 

842
00:47:31,300 --> 00:47:33,100
perspective. 
I'm just curious. 

843
00:47:33,100 --> 00:47:35,900
You know, what is it that 
concerns you that we should be 

844
00:47:35,900 --> 00:47:38,900
watching out for if you'd have 
asked me this 10 years ago, I 

845
00:47:38,900 --> 00:47:41,200
would have rattled off all the 
threats of the day. 

846
00:47:41,500 --> 00:47:45,000
I've got to a point where a 
threat is just a threat. 

847
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:47,200
It's another threats, different 
kind of threats going to be a 

848
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:48,500
threats. 
Got, there's always going to be 

849
00:47:48,500 --> 00:47:54,200
a threat. 
It's it's a thing for me though.

850
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:56,700
I'm going to say people, but 
that sounds trite. 

851
00:47:56,800 --> 00:48:00,700
I'm going to say people. 
And I don't mean because I think

852
00:48:00,700 --> 00:48:04,300
people are the weakest link. 
I think that's an easy out to 

853
00:48:04,300 --> 00:48:07,400
say our processes suck, but 
we're going to blame the person 

854
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:10,600
cuz we can like when you need a 
throat to choke. 

855
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:13,200
It's got to be a people throat. 
It can't be a process throat or 

856
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:17,800
governance throat. 
So what do I, what am I 

857
00:48:17,808 --> 00:48:22,500
concerned about? 
I am concerned that organization

858
00:48:22,500 --> 00:48:26,000
and Society leaders. 
Do not understand the systemic 

859
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:31,700
risk that we are all facing and 
I think that they can manage 

860
00:48:31,700 --> 00:48:36,100
their risk as an independent 
Silo and they can't. 

861
00:48:36,700 --> 00:48:41,300
And I think as a society, we're 
going to something something 

862
00:48:41,900 --> 00:48:46,400
society-wide will happen. 
And we will realize that we just

863
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:48,900
didn't get it right. 
And and super people will run 

864
00:48:48,900 --> 00:48:50,700
around and fix it and everyone 
will go. 

865
00:48:50,700 --> 00:48:53,600
Whoo, boy, we dodged that 
bullet, aren't we good? 

866
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:57,500
That's great. 
But one of the reasons I see so 

867
00:48:57,500 --> 00:49:01,200
many people in security burning 
out, is because Cuz we've been 

868
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:04,100
working this for a really long 
time and really even though the 

869
00:49:04,100 --> 00:49:07,800
threats have changed the 
attitude towards it hasn't 

870
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:10,100
really significantly changed 
yet. 

871
00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:14,700
So the things that worry me are 
one that we're going to have 

872
00:49:14,700 --> 00:49:17,600
something really big and we're 
not ready for it. 

873
00:49:17,700 --> 00:49:20,400
That's sort of the community 
concern level. 

874
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:23,300
But at a tactical level, I'm 
actually concerned about the 

875
00:49:23,300 --> 00:49:26,300
mental health of our 
technologists and our, and our 

876
00:49:26,300 --> 00:49:29,500
practitioners. 
I think that is a bigger problem

877
00:49:29,700 --> 00:49:31,100
that we need. 
To be thinking about. 

878
00:49:32,100 --> 00:49:33,900
Now, it's kind of refreshing. 
I don't normally hear that. 

879
00:49:33,900 --> 00:49:36,500
Answer from folks is taking care
of people. 

880
00:49:36,700 --> 00:49:40,900
Basically, we're talking about, 
this is an identity podcast, for

881
00:49:40,900 --> 00:49:45,100
the most part, when we're not 
talking AI or other things, but 

882
00:49:45,500 --> 00:49:49,300
I'm curious, you know, from a 
sea so perspective again, and 

883
00:49:49,300 --> 00:49:52,700
kind of, we putting that hat on.
We are always looking for 

884
00:49:52,700 --> 00:49:57,100
funding to get things done and 
as I see, so I'm sure you're 

885
00:49:57,100 --> 00:49:59,900
juggling multiple funding 
priorities and say, okay, well, 

886
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:02,400
You know, I have this part of 
the budget and I'm sure your 

887
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:06,600
budget is constantly, you know, 
being added to shrunk, you know,

888
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:11,600
changed up throughout the year. 
What is some tips that you can 

889
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:15,100
give to Identity people out 
there who know they need to get 

890
00:50:15,100 --> 00:50:17,900
stuff done? 
And they need to go to a seesaw 

891
00:50:17,900 --> 00:50:20,900
or somebody to get funding, 
like, what is a tip that we can 

892
00:50:20,900 --> 00:50:23,300
say, okay? 
Here's don't, come to me with a 

893
00:50:23,300 --> 00:50:25,300
problem. 
Country is a solution, right? 

894
00:50:25,300 --> 00:50:27,200
Those types of things. 
But, you know what? 

895
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:29,900
How can we get more funding, 
allocated, take care of some of 

896
00:50:29,900 --> 00:50:31,700
these. 
Done with your identity issues 

897
00:50:31,700 --> 00:50:33,000
that might be out there. 
Yeah. 

898
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:35,100
Assuming right. 
That the other things are 

899
00:50:35,100 --> 00:50:37,800
covered the people, the process,
you know, things like that. 

900
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:39,500
Right? 
Yeah. 

901
00:50:39,500 --> 00:50:43,100
Every organization is going to 
have a different cultural way of

902
00:50:43,100 --> 00:50:45,700
allocating resources. 
So it's going to be really 

903
00:50:45,700 --> 00:50:49,300
company dependent, but 
organizationally dependent. 

904
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:53,400
If one of the things that I have
seen to be successful, is to 

905
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:55,700
look at whatever the 
organization is doing, that is 

906
00:50:55,700 --> 00:50:59,200
their big priority item. 
Now to the degree. 

907
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:03,200
And I Identity team can get 
involved in these conversations.

908
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:07,000
Early enough is going to be a 
bit of a challenge, but every 

909
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:10,200
organization has got some big 
effort that is there sort of 

910
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:14,500
Flagship effort that's going on.
It could be some kind of digital

911
00:51:14,500 --> 00:51:17,800
transformation thing. 
It could be, they're moving in, 

912
00:51:17,900 --> 00:51:19,500
they're doing mergers and 
Acquisitions. 

913
00:51:19,500 --> 00:51:21,200
It could be they're going into a
new country. 

914
00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:24,100
It could be any of those things.
Those big projects are 

915
00:51:24,100 --> 00:51:27,800
opportunities to do something, 
interesting and identity 

916
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:30,400
management, you're not doing it 
necessarily for the Company. 

917
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:33,900
But you're doing it for that 
thing and when you do that, you 

918
00:51:33,900 --> 00:51:37,700
get the money because that if 
you make the case that identity 

919
00:51:37,700 --> 00:51:41,400
is important to that thing and I
can't think of any place in an 

920
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:44,600
organization where identity 
isn't an important contributing 

921
00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:47,000
factor. 
But to the degree you can say 

922
00:51:47,700 --> 00:51:49,300
hey this big thing you want to 
do. 

923
00:51:49,300 --> 00:51:52,000
You need to make sure your 
identity processes tools, 

924
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:57,000
whatever are ready for this tie.
The funding of what you need to 

925
00:51:57,000 --> 00:51:59,400
get that thing to that big 
project. 

926
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:02,900
And then when it's successful, 
I'm trusting, here's my 

927
00:52:02,900 --> 00:52:06,200
optimistic side of medium. 
When that successful then you 

928
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:09,100
can go and say, look what we did
over here, we should be doing it

929
00:52:09,100 --> 00:52:13,300
elsewhere and you can grow it. 
So that's how that's a bit of a 

930
00:52:13,300 --> 00:52:17,500
big company answer but that's 
sort of how I see it on a 

931
00:52:17,500 --> 00:52:21,100
smaller side. 
I think there's opportunity to 

932
00:52:21,100 --> 00:52:24,900
work perhaps with a customer. 
If you're in the if you've got 

933
00:52:24,900 --> 00:52:28,100
that consumer, sort of identity 
side of things, go find a 

934
00:52:28,107 --> 00:52:30,900
customer with the unique use 
case that Think identity can 

935
00:52:30,900 --> 00:52:34,700
support and then go partner with
their customer to get the 

936
00:52:34,700 --> 00:52:38,400
funding for that kind of effort.
Again, prove that it works and 

937
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:40,900
then grow it across. 
The team is a great way to go. 

938
00:52:40,900 --> 00:52:46,400
So I've seen those kinds of 
strategies work, but good luck. 

939
00:52:46,500 --> 00:52:51,000
It's always it's always hard. 
I love that answer Helen. 

940
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:52,800
I really don't have anything to 
add. 

941
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:57,100
Except yeah, that's what that's 
what I've seen is. 

942
00:52:57,100 --> 00:53:00,600
Well, if you could tie, I am to 
a bigger and Issue of like 

943
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:02,700
digital transformation like an 
MMA. 

944
00:53:02,900 --> 00:53:06,200
I mean that's that's what 
there's budget carved out for 

945
00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:09,800
that big initiative and if you 
can make your case, you can get 

946
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:13,900
a chunk of that funding. 
So you've been super generous 

947
00:53:13,900 --> 00:53:18,800
with your time today but I want 
to try to get as much content 

948
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:20,800
for our listeners out there as 
possible. 

949
00:53:21,100 --> 00:53:25,100
And so I'm going to bring you 
out on to the lightning round or

950
00:53:25,100 --> 00:53:28,400
I'm going to throw a few topics 
out there and ask you, where are

951
00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:34,600
we at in the hype cycle? 
All for that technology and why 

952
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:37,100
so, you know, one to two 
minutes. 

953
00:53:37,300 --> 00:53:41,000
So the first one is AI in the 
context of I am. 

954
00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:45,400
I'm going to get my hype cycle 
terminology wrong, but I'm, I'm,

955
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:48,400
I think it's in the trough of 
Despair. 

956
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:50,500
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

957
00:53:50,900 --> 00:53:54,500
We don't have to use the, the 
Tactical hype cycle terminology.

958
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:56,300
Yeah. 
To let you off the hook for 

959
00:53:56,300 --> 00:53:59,900
that, you know, we're at a point
every vendor is going. 

960
00:53:59,900 --> 00:54:02,400
Out there and saying, we've got 
AI for this and AI for that. 

961
00:54:02,400 --> 00:54:04,400
So, first of all, I want to call
BS. 

962
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:06,400
I think we've got really fast 
machine learning. 

963
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:10,300
I don't think we've got AI in 
the way most people understand 

964
00:54:10,300 --> 00:54:16,200
AI to be, but I also think if 
you go and buy that tool with 

965
00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:19,300
the AI, there is sort of also an
assumption that that tool 

966
00:54:19,300 --> 00:54:22,400
integrates with your rest of 
your Tech stack and often it 

967
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:26,500
doesn't. 
So I think the promise of AI is 

968
00:54:26,500 --> 00:54:29,300
there and I think there are some
folks who are starting to 

969
00:54:29,300 --> 00:54:32,300
leverage it. 
But it is fine. 

970
00:54:32,300 --> 00:54:35,400
It is proving to be more 
difficult than people thought. 

971
00:54:35,700 --> 00:54:40,100
And so I think people are sort 
of it's like, touching a hot 

972
00:54:40,100 --> 00:54:41,900
stove. 
It's like, you know, you get 

973
00:54:41,900 --> 00:54:45,900
this momentary flash of and then
your back away from it. 

974
00:54:45,900 --> 00:54:49,200
I think people have touch the 
hot stove of AI and now they're 

975
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:51,300
backing away from it going. 
Okay, we got to wait and see 

976
00:54:51,300 --> 00:54:54,200
when this is got to get a little
more usable before we can really

977
00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:58,100
get value out of it. 
Yeah, I think it's I'm going to 

978
00:54:58,100 --> 00:55:01,600
pull it back to a Thing you 
brought up earlier where you 

979
00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:05,600
would build your own car you 
know how to work on it and it 

980
00:55:05,900 --> 00:55:09,900
seems like nowadays, you just 
have a computer chip in your car

981
00:55:09,900 --> 00:55:14,900
and you don't know how it works.
It just works and to me that's 

982
00:55:14,900 --> 00:55:19,400
the part of AI in your I am 
context is like it's going to 

983
00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:22,300
start doing things. 
And if you don't know, if you 

984
00:55:22,300 --> 00:55:26,100
can't predict how, you know, it 
always seems like business 

985
00:55:26,100 --> 00:55:29,000
process. 
When you automate business 

986
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:31,500
process, you had to. 
How it would work if it was 

987
00:55:31,500 --> 00:55:33,900
manually, step-by-step 
happening. 

988
00:55:34,300 --> 00:55:36,900
You couldn't just say, well, the
computer shifts going to take 

989
00:55:36,900 --> 00:55:40,000
care of that and we trust the 
computer chip, but I think 

990
00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:43,000
that's where AI is taking us so 
good. 

991
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:46,500
Good answer on that one. 
The next one, I'm not sure if 

992
00:55:46,500 --> 00:55:54,200
you've heard of this before, but
it's zero, trust zero trust. 

993
00:55:54,900 --> 00:55:59,000
I I'm actually really bullish on
zero trust, although you get 100

994
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:00,900
people in the room. 
You get three definitions of 

995
00:56:00,900 --> 00:56:06,200
what zero trust is. 
So on the hype cycle, I would 

996
00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:09,000
still say it's emerging. 
I think if you talk to most 

997
00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:11,100
people, they would tell you, 
they're beginning, their zero, 

998
00:56:11,100 --> 00:56:14,500
trust Journey. 
They're not fully into it yet 

999
00:56:14,500 --> 00:56:18,400
even the Google as might think 
that they're not quite fully 

1000
00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:23,900
into it yet. 
So emerging, but I think the 

1001
00:56:23,900 --> 00:56:26,900
potential of getting zero trust 
if you get it right, 

1002
00:56:26,900 --> 00:56:30,600
particularly in the ident. 
So let me put a death Around it.

1003
00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:33,400
I know this is lightning round 
and I'm not helping here through

1004
00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:37,700
the lens of identity. 
I think zero trust becomes more 

1005
00:56:37,900 --> 00:56:41,900
Dynamic, authentication, and 
authorization and continuous 

1006
00:56:42,100 --> 00:56:44,700
authentication and 
authorization. 

1007
00:56:45,100 --> 00:56:48,100
It's not zero. 
Trust it's like contextual trust

1008
00:56:48,100 --> 00:56:50,500
and I think identity has a huge 
role to play in that. 

1009
00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:54,700
I think the challenge has been 
that the companies have tried to

1010
00:56:54,800 --> 00:57:00,000
use tools to do zero trust and 
not made it an identity first. 

1011
00:57:00,100 --> 00:57:02,000
Activity. 
And I think if they make it an 

1012
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:05,400
identity first activity, they're
going to get further and faster 

1013
00:57:05,500 --> 00:57:08,100
further along faster. 
You know, I've been to our say 

1014
00:57:08,100 --> 00:57:11,300
the last couple years and last 
year, I came away with the 

1015
00:57:11,300 --> 00:57:14,400
message that art zero trust has 
been solved because literally 

1016
00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:18,300
every single product there was 
some sort of zero trust I in and

1017
00:57:18,300 --> 00:57:21,200
I feel like this isn't a New 
Concept been around for at least

1018
00:57:21,200 --> 00:57:23,900
a few years. 
If not more, it's this is the 

1019
00:57:23,900 --> 00:57:25,400
marketing term that's being 
used. 

1020
00:57:25,400 --> 00:57:28,900
Now for this, you know, 
continuous it's an occasion 

1021
00:57:28,900 --> 00:57:30,600
really which is what you just 
Hit on. 

1022
00:57:31,300 --> 00:57:35,200
And I'm curious though that the 
u.s. government has put out now,

1023
00:57:35,300 --> 00:57:39,000
you know, memorandums and other 
things to say, hey zero trust is

1024
00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:42,100
where you should be going. 
How does that affect cisos? 

1025
00:57:42,100 --> 00:57:44,800
Do they look at that and say, 
yeah, well, you know, no crap. 

1026
00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:46,700
We already that's, we already 
knew that. 

1027
00:57:46,700 --> 00:57:51,900
Or does it spur a call to action
to say, hey, if it's good enough

1028
00:57:51,900 --> 00:57:55,500
for nest, and federal government
and CSUN stuff like that? 

1029
00:57:55,500 --> 00:57:57,800
Yeah, we should be looking at it
if I haven't already been 

1030
00:57:57,800 --> 00:57:59,900
thinking about that. 
Like I guess the question there 

1031
00:57:59,900 --> 00:58:05,500
is Is how much does guidance 
from government help? 

1032
00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:08,600
Inform a cisos strategy when it 
comes to that sort of thing? 

1033
00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:10,900
Honestly, I don't think it does 
a lot. 

1034
00:58:11,500 --> 00:58:14,800
I will I'm actually I've read 
all of the federal government's 

1035
00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:17,000
documents about it. 
And there is a whole sort of 

1036
00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:19,700
cascade of documents from a 
strategy document, to an 

1037
00:58:19,700 --> 00:58:23,000
architectural, diagram to a 
standards like the, you know, 

1038
00:58:23,200 --> 00:58:25,300
Nest, I. 
So I'm going to get it wrong. 

1039
00:58:25,300 --> 00:58:28,200
120 nist 127, something like 
that. 

1040
00:58:28,300 --> 00:58:30,800
Anyway, I read all of them. 
Give Lee. 

1041
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:33,600
It's actually really great 
reference document so if you 

1042
00:58:33,600 --> 00:58:36,300
don't even know where to start 
zero trust, that's a that's a 

1043
00:58:36,300 --> 00:58:38,100
really good place to go. 
Look. 

1044
00:58:38,300 --> 00:58:40,800
But you've got to remember, they
wrote it for the federal 

1045
00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:42,800
government. 
They didn't write it for the 

1046
00:58:42,800 --> 00:58:45,000
Silicon Valley startup. 
They didn't write it for the 

1047
00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:47,400
hospital in the midwest. 
They wrote it for federal 

1048
00:58:47,800 --> 00:58:52,900
agencies and so you can you take
what is you take what resonates 

1049
00:58:52,900 --> 00:58:56,300
and you leave the rest. 
So I don't know, a see. 

1050
00:58:56,300 --> 00:58:59,700
So who doesn't create a strategy
by going out and looking at sort

1051
00:58:59,700 --> 00:59:02,600
of The landscape of things, 
what's happening? 

1052
00:59:02,600 --> 00:59:04,700
Where are they compared to? 
Where they're seeing the 

1053
00:59:04,700 --> 00:59:07,000
industry, go, all of those 
things, this is just another 

1054
00:59:07,000 --> 00:59:09,900
data element for them to 
consider, but unless they're to 

1055
00:59:09,900 --> 00:59:13,200
see so of an agency, it's not 
going to be a driver. 

1056
00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:16,000
Do you guys remember the most 
likely and group? 

1057
00:59:16,100 --> 00:59:17,300
It was a Saturday Night Live 
skit. 

1058
00:59:17,300 --> 00:59:20,200
Actually, as a PBS show, as they
would do, like our lightning 

1059
00:59:20,200 --> 00:59:24,300
round, then John McLaughlin 
would go wrong. 

1060
00:59:24,500 --> 00:59:29,700
Compensating controls will 
continue to make zero trust and 

1061
00:59:29,700 --> 00:59:30,800
unimportant. 
Factor. 

1062
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:33,300
Yeah, possibly. 
So alright. 

1063
00:59:34,100 --> 00:59:36,600
That was just eating away at my 
brain so I had to throw it out 

1064
00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:38,200
there. 
All right, the third lightning 

1065
00:59:38,200 --> 00:59:43,300
round item is blockchain again. 
Within the context of I am nice 

1066
00:59:43,300 --> 00:59:48,600
n't on the hyped Dyson time. 
Again, I think identity is one 

1067
00:59:48,600 --> 00:59:51,800
of these places where you, it's 
hard to solve purely with 

1068
00:59:51,800 --> 00:59:57,000
technology and so the I think 
that, you know, the idea of 

1069
00:59:57,800 --> 00:59:59,900
using the blockchain is 
intriguing. 

1070
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:03,700
Where we can take it, I think is
being explored. 

1071
01:00:04,100 --> 01:00:07,700
But again you've got to have if 
you're going to consume it as 

1072
01:00:07,700 --> 01:00:10,800
either an individual person or 
as a company in your, in part of

1073
01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:13,700
an identity management team, 
it's got to be able to play with

1074
01:00:13,700 --> 01:00:16,800
all of your other pieces and all
the other pieces aren't ready 

1075
01:00:16,800 --> 01:00:21,300
for it yet. 
So I would give it a 5 to 10 

1076
01:00:21,300 --> 01:00:25,500
year Horizon to be able to be 
really ubiquitous you think it's

1077
01:00:25,500 --> 01:00:30,000
a still a solution in search of 
a problem or do you think the 

1078
01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:32,700
Albums have been identified. 
It's just taking longer to 

1079
01:00:32,700 --> 01:00:35,900
really figure out and apply the 
solution correctly. 

1080
01:00:35,900 --> 01:00:40,400
Neither actually I think the way
we do technology is someone 

1081
01:00:40,400 --> 01:00:43,700
comes up with the idea for Tech 
and they come up with a use case

1082
01:00:43,700 --> 01:00:47,900
and they go out and they 
realized that the use case they 

1083
01:00:47,900 --> 01:00:50,300
thought they were solving for 
wasn't really the use case that 

1084
01:00:50,300 --> 01:00:53,000
it was a best fit for and we 
iterate on that, right? 

1085
01:00:53,000 --> 01:00:56,800
So I think blockchains going 
through the same thing. 

1086
01:00:56,800 --> 01:01:00,500
People are going to iterate on 
it for a while before we We find

1087
01:01:00,500 --> 01:01:04,100
the mesh of this is a technology
that solves this kind of 

1088
01:01:04,100 --> 01:01:05,900
problem. 
Right now we're going, we think 

1089
01:01:05,900 --> 01:01:08,000
this technology can solve this 
kind of problem. 

1090
01:01:08,000 --> 01:01:10,100
Let's test it out. 
That's where we are. 

1091
01:01:10,100 --> 01:01:15,400
I think at the moment I I think 
someone will find a really valid

1092
01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:17,200
use for it. 
I don't think they've done it 

1093
01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:19,500
yet. 
I don't think they've done it 

1094
01:01:19,500 --> 01:01:22,000
yet. 
The valid use for, it usually 

1095
01:01:22,000 --> 01:01:25,200
comes about because of either 
advances in other kinds of 

1096
01:01:25,200 --> 01:01:28,500
technology which is certainly on
on the cards and I think 

1097
01:01:29,100 --> 01:01:32,100
blockchain and Artificial 
intelligence are really closely 

1098
01:01:32,100 --> 01:01:37,000
linked. 
Actually, so where as, as each 

1099
01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:41,000
side of those things improve 
that that will accelerate the 

1100
01:01:41,000 --> 01:01:44,900
movement for both of them, but 
the other piece to it is the 

1101
01:01:44,900 --> 01:01:48,600
regulatory, you know, what's the
community willing to do and to 

1102
01:01:48,600 --> 01:01:52,000
tolerate, and I don't think the 
community writ large 

1103
01:01:52,300 --> 01:01:55,300
understands, how to use this 
stuff. 

1104
01:01:55,400 --> 01:01:58,600
Well, enough to have an opinion 
yet on on the blockchain side. 

1105
01:01:58,800 --> 01:01:59,900
All right, I know what I'm going
for. 

1106
01:02:00,000 --> 01:02:02,600
An hour and but I have to follow
up here in something. 

1107
01:02:02,600 --> 01:02:07,000
You just said the the linking of
AI and blockchain. 

1108
01:02:07,000 --> 01:02:10,000
I think is really interesting 
because I think if they were 

1109
01:02:10,000 --> 01:02:12,400
working together, it might solve
some of the issues. 

1110
01:02:12,500 --> 01:02:15,300
The early issues that we're 
seeing now with things, like 

1111
01:02:15,700 --> 01:02:20,600
chat GPT and Lambda, and barred,
and all that stuff out there 

1112
01:02:20,600 --> 01:02:24,500
with sources of information 
being used for treating data. 

1113
01:02:25,200 --> 01:02:28,600
If that training data was part 
of a blockchain, theoretically, 

1114
01:02:28,900 --> 01:02:32,800
you could opt in or Opt out and 
track where that data was coming

1115
01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:34,800
from. 
And it's just when you when you 

1116
01:02:34,800 --> 01:02:37,400
talked about it being linked 
together, I wonder if that is 

1117
01:02:38,100 --> 01:02:42,300
something that is in the cards 
for, you know, the this this 

1118
01:02:42,300 --> 01:02:45,800
future of where data may be 
shared, sort of the self 

1119
01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:50,100
Sovereign identity and the 
associated data that might come 

1120
01:02:50,100 --> 01:02:52,700
along with that identity and 
where it may or may not be used 

1121
01:02:52,700 --> 01:02:55,600
to be able to track it, and I 
don't know if there's an answer 

1122
01:02:55,600 --> 01:02:57,000
for it now, it was just an 
interesting. 

1123
01:02:57,200 --> 01:02:59,400
You know, thing picking wait my 
brain here as we were talking 

1124
01:02:59,400 --> 01:03:01,000
but yeah. 
Any reaction to that. 

1125
01:03:03,800 --> 01:03:06,900
This is where I'm hoping that 
people are actually paying 

1126
01:03:06,900 --> 01:03:08,600
attention. 
I trust that there is some 

1127
01:03:08,600 --> 01:03:12,800
researchers somewhere doing this
work and I'm looking forward to 

1128
01:03:12,800 --> 01:03:16,000
seeing that published or someone
listening to this podcast 

1129
01:03:16,000 --> 01:03:18,700
telling me it's already been 
done and finding me on LinkedIn 

1130
01:03:18,700 --> 01:03:24,700
and telling me that. 
But yeah I think that the what 

1131
01:03:24,700 --> 01:03:29,900
the blockchain brings is some 
Assurance of Integrity of data. 

1132
01:03:30,500 --> 01:03:33,400
And some Assurance of 
immutability we can get into 

1133
01:03:33,400 --> 01:03:37,300
arguments about how immutable a 
blockchain item is and all that 

1134
01:03:37,300 --> 01:03:39,100
kind of stuff. 
But I think that brings that I 

1135
01:03:39,107 --> 01:03:45,300
think that what the AI promises 
to bring is the ability to 

1136
01:03:45,300 --> 01:03:50,800
understand context really really
quickly and to be able to gather

1137
01:03:50,800 --> 01:03:54,400
disparate data sources and make 
connections that we wouldn't 

1138
01:03:54,400 --> 01:03:58,100
otherwise be able to see for 
ourselves but what it lacks is 

1139
01:03:58,100 --> 01:04:01,700
any level of confidence in 
Integrity or immutability. 

1140
01:04:01,700 --> 01:04:04,600
And so I think they're I think 
they can prop one another up 

1141
01:04:05,300 --> 01:04:07,100
that way. 
So I'm looking forward to seeing

1142
01:04:07,100 --> 01:04:10,600
that happen. 
I think it's happening but I 

1143
01:04:10,600 --> 01:04:13,300
haven't seen it in any sort of 
commercial sense yet. 

1144
01:04:14,200 --> 01:04:16,300
Yeah, I think it's just 
interesting and I'm bullish on 

1145
01:04:16,300 --> 01:04:19,700
the i stuff I think like you 
kind of still figure out where 

1146
01:04:19,700 --> 01:04:21,400
the leverage, you know, when is 
Chatty Patty. 

1147
01:04:21,400 --> 01:04:24,400
Gonna take my job. 
I think, things like that, 

1148
01:04:24,400 --> 01:04:27,500
right? 
But until it's until it's in a 

1149
01:04:27,500 --> 01:04:32,400
spot where I think, You know, 
people can trust the data and 

1150
01:04:32,400 --> 01:04:36,400
Trust the response that that 
trust in the identity is going 

1151
01:04:36,400 --> 01:04:39,700
to have to be a key part of it. 
And just Jim's gonna smile 

1152
01:04:39,700 --> 01:04:42,100
because that's upcoming episode 
that we're going to talk about 

1153
01:04:42,100 --> 01:04:44,500
his trust and identity with Eve 
mailer at some point. 

1154
01:04:44,500 --> 01:04:45,900
You're in. 
Excellent. 

1155
01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:47,400
Yeah. 
That's a good teaser. 

1156
01:04:47,400 --> 01:04:48,400
So you're welcome for that. 
Jim. 

1157
01:04:49,500 --> 01:04:51,600
Alright, so we've been going out
for about an hour, but I do like

1158
01:04:51,600 --> 01:04:53,000
to end on a lighter note around 
here. 

1159
01:04:53,000 --> 01:04:58,600
We've got really deep into the 
identity things and I think it's

1160
01:04:58,600 --> 01:05:00,700
safe to say that we're all a 
little A bit nerdy. 

1161
01:05:02,100 --> 01:05:03,900
Just haven't gotten to know each
other over the last, you know, 

1162
01:05:03,900 --> 01:05:05,700
couple hours or so. 
We've been kind of been meeting 

1163
01:05:05,700 --> 01:05:07,900
and prepping and stuff like that
and recording this. 

1164
01:05:08,300 --> 01:05:10,700
And I'm curious. 
What is everyone's nerdiest 

1165
01:05:10,700 --> 01:05:13,900
hobby? 
That you might have I'm looking 

1166
01:05:13,900 --> 01:05:16,700
at Helen and I'm looking at her 
visual background. 

1167
01:05:16,700 --> 01:05:19,700
I see some really interesting 
things and maybe that's it. 

1168
01:05:19,700 --> 01:05:23,300
Maybe there's other things that 
are that she considers nerdy and

1169
01:05:23,300 --> 01:05:26,700
I know that and I mean this as a
term of endearment, right? 

1170
01:05:26,800 --> 01:05:29,900
I think having interesting 
hobbies and cool. 

1171
01:05:30,000 --> 01:05:32,200
The people do an aside is 
fascinating can understands the 

1172
01:05:32,200 --> 01:05:35,000
human side of things. 
But what is the nerdiest, what 

1173
01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:37,600
you think is the nerdiest hobby?
You have Helen want you go 

1174
01:05:37,600 --> 01:05:40,300
first? 
Yeah, so my background right 

1175
01:05:40,300 --> 01:05:42,100
now. 
Includes some Lego Star Wars, 

1176
01:05:42,100 --> 01:05:45,300
but that is actually not the 
nerdiest thing that I do. 

1177
01:05:45,300 --> 01:05:48,700
So for the longest time, I 
can't, I don't, I don't know 

1178
01:05:48,700 --> 01:05:53,700
when this started but I geek out
completely geek out on business 

1179
01:05:53,900 --> 01:05:58,800
management books. 
And when I was at Ohio State, I 

1180
01:05:58,800 --> 01:06:01,500
had the opportunity to do, My 
masters in public policy. 

1181
01:06:01,500 --> 01:06:07,400
So that, that pivoted slightly I
went from just sort of, generic 

1182
01:06:07,400 --> 01:06:09,700
management books. 
Like How to be a good leader, 

1183
01:06:09,700 --> 01:06:12,600
and how did, how to make change 
in an organization. 

1184
01:06:12,600 --> 01:06:17,500
Now, I've pivoted to policy, 
technology policy books. 

1185
01:06:17,900 --> 01:06:22,700
So as we think about things like
the adoption of sovereign and 

1186
01:06:22,700 --> 01:06:24,700
identities. 
What is the policy implication 

1187
01:06:24,700 --> 01:06:27,400
of that? 
Who in the federal government at

1188
01:06:27,400 --> 01:06:30,400
the u.s. level or the Australian
level, or the British Whatever 

1189
01:06:31,100 --> 01:06:34,900
who gets to decide what that 
policy is, how would they decide

1190
01:06:34,900 --> 01:06:37,500
whether the policies, giving 
them the outcomes, they want 

1191
01:06:37,500 --> 01:06:40,900
that kind of stuff. 
So, on a weekend you will find 

1192
01:06:40,900 --> 01:06:44,800
me with, you know, cup of hot 
chocolate or glass of wine, or 

1193
01:06:44,900 --> 01:06:49,000
whatever, and a policy book, and
my husband thinks I'm a complete

1194
01:06:49,000 --> 01:06:51,900
idiot. 
But that's, that's my nerdy 

1195
01:06:52,000 --> 01:06:55,800
Hobby and I must admit, I'm 
starting to Pivot a little bit 

1196
01:06:55,800 --> 01:07:00,700
more now into ethics. 
May, I Identity, ethics, 

1197
01:07:00,700 --> 01:07:02,800
accessibility ethics. 
That kind of stuff. 

1198
01:07:02,800 --> 01:07:05,700
So it's all munging together in 
my head and you've written a 

1199
01:07:05,707 --> 01:07:07,900
book and I'm there. 
So I want to give it a chance to

1200
01:07:07,900 --> 01:07:10,100
talk about that book, that 
you've written. 

1201
01:07:10,300 --> 01:07:13,700
But what's a other than your 
own, which, of course is require

1202
01:07:13,700 --> 01:07:15,700
reading. 
What's a recommendation for a 

1203
01:07:15,700 --> 01:07:17,400
book perspective? 
That you think people should be 

1204
01:07:17,408 --> 01:07:22,000
checking out? 
So there's a book called 

1205
01:07:22,000 --> 01:07:25,500
artificial intelligence, by 
Russell and norvig, and it is, 

1206
01:07:25,700 --> 01:07:29,800
it's a textbook. 
So again, nerdy Hobbies, I read.

1207
01:07:30,000 --> 01:07:32,900
Books for fun. 
But it is a textbook about 

1208
01:07:32,900 --> 01:07:35,700
artificial intelligence in the 
use of artificial intelligence 

1209
01:07:35,700 --> 01:07:39,300
in in society. 
And this question that Jim 

1210
01:07:39,300 --> 01:07:42,300
raised around, you know, how 
much are we willing to trade 

1211
01:07:42,300 --> 01:07:45,200
privacy for usability and 
accessibility and those kinds of

1212
01:07:45,200 --> 01:07:49,400
things and it really opened my 
eyes to some thinking, so worth 

1213
01:07:49,400 --> 01:07:51,600
a read, all right? 
And then we're reading actually 

1214
01:07:51,600 --> 01:07:55,100
the Phoenix project internally 
as part of our identity team and

1215
01:07:55,100 --> 01:07:57,500
security able team here at RSM. 
So we have at the book club for 

1216
01:07:57,500 --> 01:07:59,900
this quarter. 
So yeah, I blasted through In 

1217
01:07:59,908 --> 01:08:01,000
the first month or so of the 
year. 

1218
01:08:01,000 --> 01:08:03,400
So I'm kind of ahead of the game
where everyone we try to do like

1219
01:08:03,400 --> 01:08:05,600
a couple chapters like five 
chapters, every couple weeks or 

1220
01:08:05,600 --> 01:08:07,700
something like that. 
And we come together as part of 

1221
01:08:07,700 --> 01:08:09,900
a group to kind of discuss, you 
know, thoughts and feelings 

1222
01:08:09,900 --> 01:08:11,800
around it. 
So definitely recommendation for

1223
01:08:11,800 --> 01:08:15,300
people who are looking who are 
looking for more of like a 

1224
01:08:15,300 --> 01:08:19,399
fiction based approach to 
learning ITI. 

1225
01:08:19,399 --> 01:08:21,700
Think it's really fascinating, 
it's not it's probably the 

1226
01:08:21,700 --> 01:08:26,100
opposite of a textbook. 
I would type isn't I am part of 

1227
01:08:26,108 --> 01:08:29,899
a committee of folks we that 
runs the cyber security Canon. 

1228
01:08:30,000 --> 01:08:32,899
Which is a list of books that 
have, we've all read that we've 

1229
01:08:32,899 --> 01:08:35,399
done a reviews on that's in 
cyber security. 

1230
01:08:35,399 --> 01:08:38,600
So if you go to cyber security 
Canon.com, you will find that 

1231
01:08:38,600 --> 01:08:42,600
link and all everything in it. 
Phoenix project was one of our 

1232
01:08:42,600 --> 01:08:45,800
Hall of Fame award winners at, 
but I will tell you is the sea. 

1233
01:08:45,800 --> 01:08:48,700
So the character of the sea. 
So in that book is a complete 

1234
01:08:48,700 --> 01:08:53,000
bumbling idiot and I resent the 
implication, but it's an 

1235
01:08:53,000 --> 01:08:55,300
excellent book, loved it, loved 
it. 

1236
01:08:55,600 --> 01:08:58,600
The Seesaw transformation that 
book was very interesting. 

1237
01:09:00,700 --> 01:09:03,200
But I think it's a good lesson 
for folks to keep, you know, to 

1238
01:09:03,200 --> 01:09:07,500
take back to their because I 
think the the personalities are 

1239
01:09:07,500 --> 01:09:10,700
probably the more along the 
lines that aside the name like 

1240
01:09:10,700 --> 01:09:13,700
us, Jim. 
What's your nerdiest hobby? 

1241
01:09:14,300 --> 01:09:17,300
Well, I think all of my hobbies 
are very cool. 

1242
01:09:17,300 --> 01:09:20,399
Otherwise I wouldn't do them. 
But I just a cool guy, man. 

1243
01:09:20,800 --> 01:09:24,700
But my my hobby that most people
probably think is extremely 

1244
01:09:24,700 --> 01:09:27,899
nerdy. 
As I love watching documentaries

1245
01:09:29,300 --> 01:09:34,500
and My favorite documentary is 
the Civil War by Ken Burns. 

1246
01:09:34,800 --> 01:09:37,899
I watched it the first time in 
the late 80s, with my father, 

1247
01:09:38,200 --> 01:09:41,200
watched all like Eight Episodes 
and I don't know if you ever 

1248
01:09:41,200 --> 01:09:43,200
seen it but no no don't say 
that. 

1249
01:09:43,200 --> 01:09:46,200
I want to know what happens if 
you want to know what happened. 

1250
01:09:47,200 --> 01:09:52,800
So 90% of the documentary is 
black and white photos and 

1251
01:09:52,899 --> 01:09:57,300
storytelling and there's a lot 
of you know, different voices. 

1252
01:09:57,300 --> 01:10:03,400
Like Morgan Freeman is in it. 
It and Sam Waterson is in it and

1253
01:10:03,400 --> 01:10:07,600
I don't know, I just love it. 
So I'll be watching it on TV and

1254
01:10:07,600 --> 01:10:11,300
my son will sit down and watch 
it for about 15-20 minutes. 

1255
01:10:11,300 --> 01:10:13,600
He's like, Dad, can we watch 
something else? 

1256
01:10:15,600 --> 01:10:17,100
What do you mean? 
This is great. 

1257
01:10:17,100 --> 01:10:20,200
Why would I'm watching this for 
the 30th time? 

1258
01:10:20,500 --> 01:10:23,900
And I love it. 
So, that's my insolent. 

1259
01:10:23,900 --> 01:10:27,200
I've seen it too. 
He also the National Park series

1260
01:10:27,200 --> 01:10:29,700
that he did was also just like 
that. 

1261
01:10:30,100 --> 01:10:32,000
Excellent. 
So and there's one called the 

1262
01:10:32,000 --> 01:10:34,500
West which is also really well 
done. 

1263
01:10:34,700 --> 01:10:37,700
I mean all of his I'm Ken Burns 
is a genius, right? 

1264
01:10:38,100 --> 01:10:40,900
Yeah. 
Vishal so here's a nerdy fact 

1265
01:10:40,900 --> 01:10:45,000
for you. 
Ken Burns is an actual effect in

1266
01:10:45,200 --> 01:10:48,500
Apple's motion and Final Cut 
software. 

1267
01:10:49,100 --> 01:10:52,200
And basically what it does is 
you can choose the photo effects

1268
01:10:52,200 --> 01:10:54,000
as you're putting together a 
video on timeline. 

1269
01:10:54,000 --> 01:10:57,000
So here I am explaining my 
nerdiness is and it's actually 

1270
01:10:57,000 --> 01:10:59,700
called Ken Burns in the actual 
software. 

1271
01:10:59,900 --> 01:11:03,900
And it's you set a point in time
for one focus on the picture. 

1272
01:11:04,100 --> 01:11:07,100
And then another another spot on
the picture and it will slowly 

1273
01:11:07,100 --> 01:11:10,300
pan between the two to give you 
that effective what you've seen 

1274
01:11:10,300 --> 01:11:11,900
in his cylinders. 
Yeah. 

1275
01:11:11,900 --> 01:11:16,200
So they redid that documentary 
and basically did that effect to

1276
01:11:16,500 --> 01:11:19,600
a lot of the pictures so that 
they it's more visually 

1277
01:11:19,600 --> 01:11:22,100
interesting but I guess I prefer
the old one. 

1278
01:11:22,800 --> 01:11:26,900
Yeah I guess myself it's not 
going to come as a surprise. 

1279
01:11:26,900 --> 01:11:27,700
Probably anybody? 
Who knows? 

1280
01:11:27,700 --> 01:11:30,700
Me I'm just a general. 
Tech geek. 

1281
01:11:30,700 --> 01:11:34,800
So I'm constantly playing with 
stuff software Hardware, just 

1282
01:11:34,800 --> 01:11:36,800
trying to find the next cool 
thing that I think is 

1283
01:11:36,800 --> 01:11:40,500
interesting, and I don't know if
it's necessarily nerdy but I 

1284
01:11:40,500 --> 01:11:45,800
collect bags, backpacks, much to
my wife's Chagrin because I have

1285
01:11:46,600 --> 01:11:52,100
at least three dozen different 
styles of backpacks, and travel 

1286
01:11:52,100 --> 01:11:55,100
bags, and things like that. 
My search for the Holy Grail of 

1287
01:11:55,100 --> 01:11:57,800
the perfect bag is still eluding
me. 

1288
01:11:58,300 --> 01:12:01,200
I've got a bag for every 
Occasion Dua, one bag. 

1289
01:12:01,200 --> 01:12:05,000
Travel to bag travel as this. 
You know, how many days, you 

1290
01:12:05,000 --> 01:12:07,800
know, I've gotten it down to a 
science where I can, I can 

1291
01:12:07,800 --> 01:12:11,900
pretty much travel for. 
I would say, you know, a week on

1292
01:12:11,900 --> 01:12:14,700
one bag something that splits 
under under the under the front 

1293
01:12:14,700 --> 01:12:17,200
seat of an airplane, just to 
make sure that things go 

1294
01:12:17,200 --> 01:12:21,100
through. 
So I think that's probably like 

1295
01:12:21,100 --> 01:12:23,600
the nerdiest thing I do. 
I know if it's dirtiness so much

1296
01:12:23,600 --> 01:12:26,200
as kind of a weirdo thing, but 
there's a subculture out there 

1297
01:12:26,200 --> 01:12:28,500
for like bad collection, things 
like that. 

1298
01:12:28,500 --> 01:12:31,100
So that's my nerd. 
This one, I don't know, maybe 

1299
01:12:31,100 --> 01:12:33,900
it's just me. 
I know. 

1300
01:12:33,900 --> 01:12:36,500
My husband is also a bad 
collector. 

1301
01:12:36,500 --> 01:12:42,500
I yeah, I get it and I, I feel 
for your wife, she's always 

1302
01:12:42,500 --> 01:12:43,500
like, well, can you get rid of 
that one? 

1303
01:12:43,500 --> 01:12:46,800
I'm like, no, I might be, I 
might use that one someday and 

1304
01:12:46,800 --> 01:12:48,900
that's how bad it is. 
Like some of these, I have not 

1305
01:12:48,900 --> 01:12:50,600
taken out of the house yet, but 
there is this. 

1306
01:12:51,000 --> 01:12:53,300
It's almost like sneakers, you 
know, there's people who like 

1307
01:12:53,300 --> 01:12:55,100
click whilst speakers and things
like that. 

1308
01:12:55,600 --> 01:12:57,800
And my idea is at some point, 
you know, maybe it'll appear in 

1309
01:12:57,808 --> 01:13:00,200
my video background. 
Some point will be like If this 

1310
01:13:00,500 --> 01:13:04,100
imagining like this pegboard 
wall, with all the bags, I've 

1311
01:13:04,100 --> 01:13:08,500
collected, and I'm not talking 
like, you know, cheap bags 

1312
01:13:08,500 --> 01:13:12,500
packed, these are like 
handcrafted unique. 

1313
01:13:12,500 --> 01:13:15,100
You do not like I run the mill 
so that, you know, the more the 

1314
01:13:15,100 --> 01:13:17,300
unique, the better. 
But I'm always looking for like 

1315
01:13:17,300 --> 01:13:19,000
the perfect bag to take with me 
ends. 

1316
01:13:19,400 --> 01:13:21,800
I had, you know, my wife gets a 
kick out of me whenever we're 

1317
01:13:21,800 --> 01:13:25,800
going on a trip. 
I will unpack repack several 

1318
01:13:25,800 --> 01:13:28,200
different styles of bags which 
is the one I want to take this 

1319
01:13:28,200 --> 01:13:31,200
time. 
And she just Yeah, Happy 

1320
01:13:31,200 --> 01:13:36,400
Valentine's Day holiday way to 
my wife but yes I you know I'm a

1321
01:13:36,400 --> 01:13:38,700
bad collector. 
So all right. 

1322
01:13:38,700 --> 01:13:42,000
Well let's go ahead and leave it
there for this week. 

1323
01:13:42,400 --> 01:13:45,100
I'm going to go ahead and put a 
couple show notes. 

1324
01:13:45,600 --> 01:13:49,300
Helen you mentioned there was 
one about the the book club or 

1325
01:13:49,300 --> 01:13:51,600
the Bic the site was it? 
Cyber security Canon or 

1326
01:13:51,600 --> 01:13:53,400
something. 
Yeah cyber security Canon like 

1327
01:13:53,400 --> 01:13:57,900
cannon, not tenancy. 
Inon like the camera, not like 

1328
01:13:58,500 --> 01:14:02,100
the artillery. 
Although, I guess if you could 

1329
01:14:02,100 --> 01:14:04,900
throw them at someone's face if 
you wanted to, but yes, we try 

1330
01:14:04,900 --> 01:14:06,900
to be nice. 
So I'll put a link to that in 

1331
01:14:06,900 --> 01:14:09,200
the show notes. 
I'll put a link to your, your 

1332
01:14:09,200 --> 01:14:10,500
website. 
See. 

1333
01:14:10,500 --> 01:14:14,500
So Helen.com which also has 
other links to things you done. 

1334
01:14:15,000 --> 01:14:17,400
Maybe we'll make the wall of 
fame with the different podcasts

1335
01:14:17,400 --> 01:14:19,900
and things that you've been on 
make that on there. 

1336
01:14:20,100 --> 01:14:22,400
And then, of course your 
LinkedIn, I'm sure people will 

1337
01:14:22,400 --> 01:14:24,800
be happy to reach out. 
We always like to throw people 

1338
01:14:24,800 --> 01:14:27,800
into the fire and say, hey, 
Helen will be glad to connect 

1339
01:14:27,800 --> 01:14:31,200
with you, and you can tell her 
how But you agree or disagree 

1340
01:14:31,200 --> 01:14:34,700
with her and very polite, and 
diplomatic ways, right? 

1341
01:14:35,000 --> 01:14:36,400
And the same thing for Gemini, 
right? 

1342
01:14:36,400 --> 01:14:37,800
You can always reach out to us 
on LinkedIn again. 

1343
01:14:37,800 --> 01:14:40,600
We're going to be a gardener in 
March, we're looking to 

1344
01:14:40,600 --> 01:14:44,300
crowdsource very difficult 
challenging questions for the 

1345
01:14:44,300 --> 01:14:47,600
Gartner identity and access 
management analysts Henry came 

1346
01:14:47,600 --> 01:14:48,900
Becky. 
So if they're listening be 

1347
01:14:48,900 --> 01:14:53,100
prepared and hopefully we'll be 
able to you know, really put 

1348
01:14:53,100 --> 01:14:56,500
them on the hot seat so to speak
and you can connect with us. 

1349
01:14:56,500 --> 01:14:59,600
We're on the web. 
Idac podcast.com we're on. 

1350
01:14:59,800 --> 01:15:04,800
Twitter at idac podcast. 
We're also on Mastodon idac, 

1351
01:15:04,800 --> 01:15:09,900
podcast at infosec dot exchange.
Mastodon, get your stuff 

1352
01:15:09,900 --> 01:15:12,100
together. 
It's very difficult to, you 

1353
01:15:12,100 --> 01:15:15,100
know, get that out and make sure
people on the right servers and 

1354
01:15:15,100 --> 01:15:17,500
all that good stuff. 
So, alright, and then don't 

1355
01:15:17,500 --> 01:15:20,000
forget to subscribe and, you 
know, like the podcast and leave

1356
01:15:20,000 --> 01:15:21,200
us a review. 
Some of that, we got some really

1357
01:15:21,200 --> 01:15:22,300
great reviews or last couple 
months. 

1358
01:15:22,300 --> 01:15:24,600
I've been trying to put those on
Twitter as I get time to kind of

1359
01:15:24,600 --> 01:15:27,200
highlight that. 
So it's always good stuff. 

1360
01:15:27,200 --> 01:15:30,100
That's a free way that you can 
help us continue to And great 

1361
01:15:30,100 --> 01:15:34,400
guests like Helen to the show, 
makes us be more makes us appear

1362
01:15:34,400 --> 01:15:35,700
more important than we really 
are. 

1363
01:15:35,700 --> 01:15:39,900
So that's always helpful Helen, 
thank you so much for being with

1364
01:15:39,900 --> 01:15:42,300
us and Jim, as well as thanks 
for your time. 

1365
01:15:42,400 --> 01:15:44,400
And with that, we'll go ahead 
and wrap it up for this week and

1366
01:15:44,400 --> 01:15:48,300
talk with everyone. 
And you've been listening to 

1367
01:15:48,300 --> 01:15:52,400
Identity at the center. 
We hope you've enjoyed the show,

1368
01:15:52,500 --> 01:15:56,900
make sure to like rate and 
review and we'll be back soon, 

1369
01:15:56,900 --> 01:16:01,900
but in the meantime, hit the 
website at Tea at the center.com

1370
01:16:01,900 --> 01:16:06,500
and find us on Twitter at, idac 
podcast. 

1371
01:16:06,700 --> 01:16:01,900
See you next time on identity at
the center Tea at the center.com

1372
01:16:01,900 --> 01:16:06,500
and find us on Twitter at, idac 
podcast. 

1373
01:16:06,700 --> 01:16:10,700
See you next time on identity at
the center