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This is identity at the center. 
If it has anything to do with 

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IAM, this is the go to podcast 
now your hosts Jim McDonald and 

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Jeff Stedman. 
Welcome to the Identity at the 

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Center podcast. 
I'm Jeff and that's Jim. 

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Hey, Jim. 
Hey, Jeff. 

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How are you? 
Not so bad yourself. 

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Good. 
I mean, we're here at 

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Authenticate Fantastic 
conference. 

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The Expo hall has been really 
nice to have gotten an 

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opportunity to drop by a few 
booths, including the four truck

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booth. 
And you know, I got that. 

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I said what I said to them was 
how many people have stopped by 

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and asked what's happening with 
four Truck and Pain. 

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It's like, yeah, pretty much 
everybody so. 

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What'd they say? 
I don't want to go into the 

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whole thing here, you know, but 
it was it was good. 

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And I think we have commitment 
to have some people come back 

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and talk to us. 
So we will do that when they're 

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ready to do that. 
That's always appreciated. 

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How's the swag game in there? 
You know, I'm not my early days 

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are going to IT conferences. 
I wanted everything like I would

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go around with like. 
The shopping carts and trick or 

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treat, you know, can I have my 
whatever T-shirt or stress ball?

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Sliding camera cover, which I 
hate. 

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Oh, the slide camera covers. 
Yeah, hey, let's put this thing 

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that ruins you your ability to 
close your laptop. 

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That's a great idea. 
Yeah, they're fantastic. 

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And then there was the the 
dongle for charging any type of 

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phone, even though most people 
just have one type of phone. 

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I find that actually handy, 
'cause I have so many different 

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devices I'm travelling with. 
But yes, that was over. 

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But you don't need each of them 
though. 

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So swag game, we're not sure 
yet. 

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I have to go through. 
I haven't really taken a walk 

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through yet other than to get to
our little room. 

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We're we're behind. 
Because you ever notice as you 

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walk the conference hall floor, 
some of the booths have 

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different levels of swag. 
So I think if it's like you just

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want the entry level swag, it's 
like you pop one balloon with a 

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dart. 
But if you want the next level, 

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you've got to pop three balloons
with the dart. 

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And then there's like the major 
SWAG, which really means that 

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you're going to spend $1,000,000
with them. 

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I don't know what are you 
talking about. 

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Go out there and I'll, I'll 
point it out. 

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Is there like a specific vendor 
that's doing that? 

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Well, I did see one vendor that 
had like a top level swag which.

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Was like a packing bag, one of 
those, like fancy bags where you

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put your clothes in and then put
it in your luggage so you 

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couldn't. 
I like, I was like, well, what 

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do you have to do to get that 
one? 

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Because other over here you have
these camera covers. 

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I think they're for everybody, 
right? 

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Well they let you scan your 
badge and you trade up your 

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e-mail in exchange for 1000 
emails from from BD person to 

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you get the camera to get on the
door. 

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Yeah, but one thing I've noticed
also. 

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Now I'm not out here telling 
people not to let them scan your

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badge, but some places some 
vendors will scan your badge and

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then they will call you on the 
phone. 

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Let's start getting these 
personal phone calls and like. 

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Never call me on the phone. 
Do not call me on my. 

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Phone is not for phone calls. 
You're not my father or my 

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mother. 
I do not want phone calls from 

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you. 
You can send something to my 

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e-mail, hopefully my personal 
e-mail, hopefully my Hotmail 

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account that I opened 25 years. 
Yeah. 

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That's that's that's good. 
That's good. 

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Yeah. 
So I gotta go. 

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I'm judging conferences, as you 
know, based on two things, swag 

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and the quality of cookies. 
I've yet to see cookies, but we 

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did have custom doughnuts last 
night we talked about in 

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previous episode. 
We'll see what the swag 

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situation looks like. 
Do you want to talk about 

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Microsoft? 
We thought we were going to talk

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about dessert the whole time, 
but. 

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OK, let's do it. 
We probably shouldn't talk about

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them behind their backs, so why 
don't we invite Pam Dingell, 

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director of identity standards 
at Microsoft, to the show? 

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Welcome Pam. 
Well. 

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Hello, thank you for having me. 
This is a conversation that has 

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been a long time coming. 
I feel like we've been like 2 

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ships in the night passing 
through conferences. 

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Never actually don't think met 
until behind stage. 

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Last night as you were coming 
off, we were going up and it's 

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great to have you here. 
I know that you've been in the 

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space for a while, but one of 
the things we do as ritual for 

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first time guests is understand 
the origin story of our identity

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superheroes. 
Like how I did that. 

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Can you tell us, how did you get
into the identity space? 

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Is it something that you chose 
or did it choose you? 

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Yes, how many hours do we have? 
We have 5 1/2, OK. 

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No problem. 
No problem. 

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You might want to speed me up 
like the little chipmunk 

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chipmunk you know. 
No, I got into identity quite a 

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long time ago. 
I started off. 

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So I I was born in Canada, I am 
a Canadian, and I went to, you 

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know, a local university, got a 
computer science degree there. 

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And so I was working right out 
of school as a System 

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Administrator for an oil company
in Calgary, Canada and ended up 

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getting snapped up by a.com 
Darling. 

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So that tells you how long ago 
this was. 

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So it was 1999 and they actually
sent me to. 

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California for the first time in
my entire life to do training 

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with Netscape. 
Again, with the ageing, you 

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know, metaphors. 
But but I ended up training up 

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in Directory Services then and I
started to work in what they 

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call middleware, which at the 
time was mail servers, web 

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servers and directory servers. 
And it was just, you know, we 

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were the imported Canadian 
talent because it was the.com 

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boom and you could not get. 
Anyone to do anything. 

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Everyone was all taken, shall we
say. 

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And so they used to fly us in 
and we used to hang out in 

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computer rooms and install 
middleware. 

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And I didn't think of it, you 
know, the mail servers, web 

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servers, director, servers, 
whatever. 

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And then I ended up moving to a 
consulting firm that sent me to 

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a conference and this was 2001 
and I went to the Burton Group 

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conference, the Catalyst 
Conference. 

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Which, you know, some of your 
listeners might have I've been 

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to. 
Catalyst the highlight for me 

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was it's it's on the Bay in San 
Diego. 

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Location is perfect. 
That will get me to a 

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conference. 
Oh, yes, yes. 

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Well, this one was in San 
Francisco. 

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It was at the Hilton in San 
Francisco, and it changed my 

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life. 
I mean, it was people who were 

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debating why things happened and
talking about the consequences 

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of these implementations and 
and. 

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You know, why would it was 
important for people to have 

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good experiences logging in? 
And for whatever reason, I got 

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there and I did not like what 
people were saying on the stage.

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And so I stood up and asked 
questions in the conference and 

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I asked question after question.
And at the end of that 

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conference, Jamie Lewis, who ran
Burton Group at the time, said, 

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hey, you should present a talk, 
you should apply to talk next 

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year. 
And for me, that was the light 

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bulb going off. 
You know, I had loved the 

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experience. 
I got invested in what identity 

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management even was at that 
conference. 

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But the idea that I could be 
part of that community just lit 

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me up like a, you know, like a 
firework. 

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And so I spent the whole year 
excited and already and I 

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applied to speak at the 
conference and they rejected me.

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They rejected me and then 
please. 

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Submit this so we can say no. 
Exactly. 

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No, no, it was. 
I mean, it wasn't funny at the 

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time. 
I was devastated, but four years

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straight, they rejected me. 
So just for anyone who is 

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listening, who wants to speak at
one of these identity 

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conferences, just know that the 
people you see up there who are 

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doing, you know, who just look 
like it's a piece of cake, and 

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they were born to it. 
They they weren't they. 

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Had to get rejected and they had
to work their way through all of

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those same issues. 
And so that really kicked me 

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off. 
I ended up moving from Calgary, 

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Canada to go work for Ping 
Identity and in the office of 

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the CTO. 
And that's what got me really 

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connecting to customers 
specializing in federation. 

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Got me into the standards world 
and of course that's where I am 

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now. 
So I you know, I worked in the 

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office of the CTO there and then
transitioned to Microsoft as 

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Director of Identity Standards. 
So what does that mean? 

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Director of Identity Standards. 
It's the best job ever. 

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Absolutely the best job ever. 
So I have a highly skilled team 

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of folks who work in various 
different standards bodies, 

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including i.e. 
T, FW3C, the Decentralized 

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Identity Foundation, you name 
it. 

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We go in and we try to write the
standards in conjunction with 

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our engineering teams that we 
think will power our platform 

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for the next 10 years. 
And so that can involve 

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standards like Oauth, Open ID 
Connect. 

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Right now we're working on Open 
ID for BC, which is the sort of 

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the umbrella for a lot of the 
decentralized integrations with 

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Open ID Connect. 
So that's a really big one. 

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We're working in the 
international standards 

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organization on ISO18O13-5. 
Do you like how I can just 

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rattle that up, which is mobile 
driver's licenses, which we 

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think is going to have a huge 
impact? 

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Going forward in the future, and
yeah, the, you know, the goal is

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to understand in advance how the
world will need to connect and 

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then find the ways to do that 
securely. 

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And of course, we collaborate 
with everyone else in the 

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industry. 
So Microsoft is in there. 

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But also all of the other big 
identity players are trying to 

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accomplish the same thing. 
You should see my notes that I 

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just made as you're talking. 
So my first identity conference 

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was O6 digital ID world right 
and it was Kim Cameron on stage 

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talking about the the laws of 
identity, right. 

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And I was like revolutionary. 
And that's where I got sucked 

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in. 
I was like whoa, this isn't 

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just, you know plug this into 
there. 

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It this is like philosophical 
layered on top of technology and

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these guys are trying to solve 
the problems of the world with. 

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So anyway, I see how you got 
sucked in. 

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One thing I noticed in that 
conference there, and this is 

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2006, right? 
You said you ain't no one, there

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are very few women. 
You're kind of that triggered to

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me. 
You're kind of a trailblazer. 

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You know, I don't want to make 
you feel weird by saying that, 

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but it's the truth. 
I mean, there were less than 5% 

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of the audience. 
I mean, I still think it's 

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pretty lopsided when you go to 
conferences, but I mean, night 

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and day difference now versus 20
years ago, right? 

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It really is a night and day 
difference. 

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I mean, I. 
Yeah, there were often ten women

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and I knew all their names. 
We all knew each other, still 

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know each other. 
For that matter, a lot of them 

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are still in identity. 
Doesn't matter. 

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Like once you're in, you stick. 
And now you're right. 

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It's much, much more balanced. 
And I love that I do work, do a 

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lot of volunteer work for the 
Women in Identity organization. 

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Of which we are members. 
Yes, that's fantastic. 

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And yeah, it's really fun to 
see. 

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I mean, there's a lot more 
opportunity. 

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But the thing that I was lacking
at that time, I really did feel 

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isolated. 
I was almost always the only 

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woman in the room. 
And you, you get used to that. 

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I mean, part of my consulting 
background, which was that sort 

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of first job, beats it into you.
You have to be the authoritative

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voice in a room. 
And so you figure out how to do 

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that. 
But I don't know. 

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I mean. 
Right now at Microsoft, the 

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identity division at Microsoft 
has an amazing amount of 

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diversity to it. 
And so I am almost never the 

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only woman in any meeting I 
attend. 

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And I never knew that to be 
grateful for that until I had 

228
00:12:04,850 --> 00:12:09,450
it, well, proper to you because 
somebody had to be, you know, 

229
00:12:09,450 --> 00:12:11,690
the first, right? 
Or I'm not even saying you're 

230
00:12:11,690 --> 00:12:15,650
the first, but Trail Blazers, 
like the role that you play like

231
00:12:15,650 --> 00:12:19,000
yourself, so important to what's
happened. 

232
00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:23,080
Let's kind of get into some of 
the, you know, what's going on 

233
00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,520
with Microsoft today. 
I think I've been a Microsoft 

234
00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:31,480
person since my original IT 
certification was in Windows NT4

235
00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:34,360
desktop, right. 
So I've kind of been a Microsoft

236
00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:37,760
person, but I've kind of gotten 
away from that with being in 

237
00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:41,120
identity management because 
Microsoft solutions 

238
00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:46,010
traditionally and been the 
leading ones and I think a lot 

239
00:12:46,010 --> 00:12:51,130
of them, a lot of it was around 
very proprietary solutions for 

240
00:12:51,130 --> 00:12:52,890
like Access management for 
example. 

241
00:12:52,890 --> 00:12:59,930
Just think of WS Fed right and 
but it seems like there's been a

242
00:12:59,930 --> 00:13:05,410
major shift, major shift at 
Microsoft and towards its stance

243
00:13:05,410 --> 00:13:07,850
on standards. 
Specifically, the ones I have my

244
00:13:07,850 --> 00:13:10,090
eye on are the identity 
standards. 

245
00:13:10,370 --> 00:13:14,110
But to you what? 
What's the story behind that? 

246
00:13:14,550 --> 00:13:17,310
Yeah, I agree. 
And I will say that I've only 

247
00:13:17,310 --> 00:13:18,910
worked for Microsoft for five 
years. 

248
00:13:19,430 --> 00:13:23,830
So I kind of came in in the the 
golden days, right, where where 

249
00:13:23,830 --> 00:13:26,150
that stance had changed and 
there was investment. 

250
00:13:26,470 --> 00:13:28,830
I do think the fact that they 
hired a director of identity 

251
00:13:28,830 --> 00:13:33,310
standards was in part of an 
expression of the fact that they

252
00:13:34,190 --> 00:13:36,670
could see that this was a a 
serious requirement. 

253
00:13:37,710 --> 00:13:39,110
So I can't really speak about, 
you know. 

254
00:13:39,430 --> 00:13:41,750
Why that change occurred because
I came in after. 

255
00:13:41,990 --> 00:13:46,350
But it is certainly the case now
that we very much recognize that

256
00:13:47,190 --> 00:13:51,430
nobody wants to be locked in. 
That is the bottom line. 

257
00:13:51,430 --> 00:13:56,830
Nobody wants to be locked in. 
And so knowing that you can 

258
00:13:57,270 --> 00:14:01,430
bring in the tools you need at 
the time you want and connect 

259
00:14:01,430 --> 00:14:05,150
them all together is the reason 
why people feel comfortable 

260
00:14:05,470 --> 00:14:07,430
signing up for some of these 
technologies. 

261
00:14:08,560 --> 00:14:12,680
One of the things, the thoughts 
I have is moving or violating 

262
00:14:12,680 --> 00:14:15,120
standards, if you will, is not 
just coming up with a new 

263
00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:18,520
standard or ignoring a standard.
It's changing a standard. 

264
00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:21,240
Let's just add an attribute to 
SAML. 

265
00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:24,880
Let's just make it a little like
tweak it a little bit. 

266
00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:27,760
Do you talk to us about how it 
works at Microsoft? 

267
00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:29,400
Is the are you like the traffic 
cop? 

268
00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:33,320
Like, no, no, no, no no. 
Well if anyone tries to suggest 

269
00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:37,880
we change SAML then I mean there
is no changing SAML. 

270
00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:41,160
You can absolutely try. 
I mean the the real truth is 

271
00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:46,200
that the the forces that are 
applied are almost immutable 

272
00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:48,800
forces. 
For example, Saml's a perfect 

273
00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:54,000
example that that stuff is old. 
It works so well. 

274
00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:57,960
But nobody's going to go in and 
tweak those implementations 

275
00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:00,080
unless there's a real business 
reason to do it. 

276
00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:05,600
And so you know, there's a 
there's almost a time to value. 

277
00:15:07,630 --> 00:15:08,790
Back and forth that you have to 
do. 

278
00:15:08,790 --> 00:15:10,670
I mean, can you try to change 
SAML? 

279
00:15:10,670 --> 00:15:14,390
Yes. 
Will you get adoption in any 

280
00:15:14,390 --> 00:15:18,590
kind of size or anytime soon? 
No. 

281
00:15:19,110 --> 00:15:22,990
And so, So what we can do versus
what we can do and gain adoption

282
00:15:22,990 --> 00:15:26,990
is really that that's the metric
that my team often talks through

283
00:15:27,430 --> 00:15:31,110
and it's easier with newer 
things, for example, the the 

284
00:15:31,110 --> 00:15:34,350
decentralized world right now we
have a lot of flexibility. 

285
00:15:34,860 --> 00:15:38,540
And or or for example another 
one is proof of Possession. 

286
00:15:38,740 --> 00:15:43,940
So that's a specification that 
just ratified and one of my team

287
00:15:43,940 --> 00:15:48,100
members was very heavily 
involved in that and they it was

288
00:15:48,100 --> 00:15:51,340
actually incredibly valuable. 
We took all of our knowledge of 

289
00:15:51,340 --> 00:15:56,460
what we're doing in our in our 
token protection work right. 

290
00:15:56,460 --> 00:16:02,660
So token protection is a feature
of of the intra suite but but 

291
00:16:02,660 --> 00:16:06,520
the Depop spec. 
Utilized a bunch of those 

292
00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:10,600
learnings right from when the 
engineers realized something 

293
00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,480
couldn't work right. 
So there is this, there's if you

294
00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:19,240
do it right, you're helping all 
of this knowledge make its way 

295
00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:22,520
to the public world. 
But yeah, if you do it wrong, 

296
00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:26,800
you end up making things that no
one will adopt or making things 

297
00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:30,560
that that you know come out 
after your product has already 

298
00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:32,400
put something in. 
And and that's the big thing, 

299
00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:33,640
right? 
You have to know that. 

300
00:16:35,100 --> 00:16:37,780
These things happen on cycles. 
You release it once, so you're 

301
00:16:37,780 --> 00:16:40,980
not going to go in back and tune
it six months later. 

302
00:16:40,980 --> 00:16:44,460
So there's a huge problem there 
because the standards come out 

303
00:16:44,460 --> 00:16:46,260
in advance. 
But if they don't, if you're, 

304
00:16:47,420 --> 00:16:48,980
you know, developing the 
standards at the same time 

305
00:16:48,980 --> 00:16:52,260
you're developing the software, 
right, you really do have to 

306
00:16:52,260 --> 00:16:55,620
have a tight, tight coupling. 
How do you make the decision of 

307
00:16:55,620 --> 00:16:59,860
which standards to throw support
behind and which ones are? 

308
00:16:59,860 --> 00:17:01,220
Maybe it's not the right time 
yet. 

309
00:17:01,890 --> 00:17:03,810
Right. 
That's an excellent question. 

310
00:17:04,250 --> 00:17:06,010
A lot of it is product 
alignment. 

311
00:17:06,170 --> 00:17:09,730
So you know, you can create a 
standard for something that you 

312
00:17:09,730 --> 00:17:14,609
have no plans to implement. 
But yeah, it's and it's a lovely

313
00:17:14,609 --> 00:17:16,050
idea and it certainly has 
happened. 

314
00:17:16,050 --> 00:17:18,650
Sometimes you're so far ahead in
your vision. 

315
00:17:19,650 --> 00:17:22,569
But yeah, you, you need to be 
able to justify what you do and 

316
00:17:22,569 --> 00:17:25,010
why you do it. 
We certainly do. 

317
00:17:25,970 --> 00:17:29,050
My boss is Alex Simons, who, by 
the way, should really come on 

318
00:17:29,050 --> 00:17:30,290
this show. 
You need to. 

319
00:17:30,290 --> 00:17:31,530
Open invite. 
Come on, Alex. 

320
00:17:33,010 --> 00:17:36,730
But you know, it's really in 
many ways Alex's vision because 

321
00:17:36,730 --> 00:17:41,050
he he runs the product 
management office, so he's, you 

322
00:17:41,050 --> 00:17:44,650
know, he's working with the rest
of our executive team to decide 

323
00:17:44,930 --> 00:17:47,610
where our, our large priorities 
are. 

324
00:17:47,850 --> 00:17:52,850
But the other thing is we can't 
just, we can't just lead. 

325
00:17:53,250 --> 00:17:56,450
Just because it's convenient for
us doesn't mean that anyone else

326
00:17:56,450 --> 00:17:57,690
cares. 
And so there. 

327
00:17:57,690 --> 00:18:00,970
So the real judgement is what 
kind of momentum exists. 

328
00:18:01,250 --> 00:18:04,330
Is there community momentum? 
Because if there's community 

329
00:18:04,330 --> 00:18:08,610
momentum and we're not ready, we
will likely still participate 

330
00:18:09,290 --> 00:18:11,930
because otherwise otherwise the 
standard gets developed and we 

331
00:18:11,930 --> 00:18:15,370
don't have input, right. 
So that momentum piece is what's

332
00:18:15,530 --> 00:18:19,290
a really interesting question, 
Like for example, right now, 

333
00:18:19,290 --> 00:18:22,610
authorization huge, so big, 
right. 

334
00:18:22,850 --> 00:18:26,410
It's, you know, everyone's 
interested suddenly. 

335
00:18:26,570 --> 00:18:29,570
And I for anyone who's been in 
the industry for a while, I mean

336
00:18:29,570 --> 00:18:33,310
authorization. 
Has had its ups and downs, shall

337
00:18:33,310 --> 00:18:34,990
we say. 
You know, I don't know if either

338
00:18:34,990 --> 00:18:39,790
of you remember DSML. 
Yeah, very vaguely. 

339
00:18:39,990 --> 00:18:41,350
I think it came out on 
parchment. 

340
00:18:41,710 --> 00:18:44,950
Yeah, it might have, it might 
have and of course exact MO and 

341
00:18:44,950 --> 00:18:46,990
so. 
So that's an example of 

342
00:18:46,990 --> 00:18:51,110
something where you know we have
interest, but there's also 

343
00:18:51,110 --> 00:18:55,870
momentum and that momentum may 
grow faster than what we would 

344
00:18:55,870 --> 00:18:57,710
normally try to push it into 
being. 

345
00:18:58,450 --> 00:19:00,970
But you you got to run with it. 
You got to roll with the flow 

346
00:19:01,850 --> 00:19:04,530
over here at the Fido 
Authenticate conference. 

347
00:19:04,530 --> 00:19:08,090
So passkeys. 
What's Microsoft's stance on 

348
00:19:08,090 --> 00:19:10,810
passkeys? 
We are huge supporters of 

349
00:19:10,810 --> 00:19:13,610
passkeys. 
We have been working, you know, 

350
00:19:14,490 --> 00:19:17,610
for quite some time on the 
ideas. 

351
00:19:17,610 --> 00:19:19,690
You know, we're working in all 
of this in that technical 

352
00:19:19,690 --> 00:19:23,490
working group and within the web
auth and working group in W3C on

353
00:19:23,490 --> 00:19:26,540
that. 
Tim Capelli is is the team 

354
00:19:26,540 --> 00:19:28,860
member on our team who's really 
shepherding that. 

355
00:19:29,780 --> 00:19:30,980
Yeah, we think it's really 
important. 

356
00:19:30,980 --> 00:19:35,820
We still completely support 5O2 
credentials of all kinds, right?

357
00:19:35,820 --> 00:19:38,540
So it's not like we have shifted
our interest. 

358
00:19:38,540 --> 00:19:42,020
We are expanding our interest to
make sure that synced pass keys 

359
00:19:42,500 --> 00:19:45,220
are something that can work, 
security keys are something that

360
00:19:45,220 --> 00:19:48,740
can work, you know, platform 
authenticators or something that

361
00:19:48,740 --> 00:19:50,860
can work. 
So we see those three channels. 

362
00:19:51,450 --> 00:19:55,290
As being a way that we can cover
a ton of the population and have

363
00:19:55,290 --> 00:19:57,410
them have a fishing resistant 
credential. 

364
00:19:58,170 --> 00:20:02,770
Is it easier or harder having 
such a huge install base to do 

365
00:20:02,770 --> 00:20:05,330
stuff like that? 
Oh, it's harder. 

366
00:20:05,530 --> 00:20:09,770
It's absolutely harder. 
I mean that because the platform

367
00:20:09,770 --> 00:20:13,930
is so critical like the platform
is what make passkeys a fishing 

368
00:20:14,130 --> 00:20:17,810
resistant credential, you have 
to have that proximity element 

369
00:20:17,810 --> 00:20:22,490
to be able to, to prevent 
secrets from being copied, 

370
00:20:22,490 --> 00:20:25,650
right. 
So, So yes, changing the 

371
00:20:25,650 --> 00:20:30,570
platform is a non trivial thing 
and and it's expensive and it's 

372
00:20:31,290 --> 00:20:34,850
it takes a lot of cross company 
commitment to do that. 

373
00:20:35,290 --> 00:20:38,410
But the great thing is that our 
Windows team, I'm not on the 

374
00:20:38,410 --> 00:20:41,690
Windows team, I'm in the IDNA 
group, the Identity and Network 

375
00:20:41,690 --> 00:20:44,330
Access group. 
But you know, we have very 

376
00:20:44,330 --> 00:20:48,680
strong commitment from the 
Windows 11 team on all sorts of 

377
00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:52,640
security related pieces. 
And we also have a huge amount 

378
00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:58,240
of support from our internal IT 
group, right, which of course is

379
00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:02,000
on the front lines of 
protecting, you know, not just 

380
00:21:02,120 --> 00:21:04,600
Microsoft as a company, but 
Microsoft as a product and the 

381
00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:08,560
platform that we represent. 
And so, yeah, so there's sort of

382
00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:13,040
a virtuous cycle there of 
needing needing phishing 

383
00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:16,610
resistant authentication just 
for ourselves, but also wanting 

384
00:21:16,610 --> 00:21:19,610
to enable it for everyone else. 
We're a customer. 

385
00:21:19,970 --> 00:21:25,530
I think one of the interesting 
factors is that Microsoft is so 

386
00:21:25,530 --> 00:21:29,010
global, so many product lines. 
It's like it has to work for 

387
00:21:29,010 --> 00:21:33,490
everyone. 
So you have cultural challenges.

388
00:21:33,570 --> 00:21:35,610
You also have like disability 
challenges. 

389
00:21:35,610 --> 00:21:39,010
I mean, it's like the 
government's problem, but even 

390
00:21:39,010 --> 00:21:41,140
larger. 
Yeah, I agree. 

391
00:21:41,140 --> 00:21:44,020
And This is why I really 
strongly believe that security 

392
00:21:44,020 --> 00:21:48,540
keys are absolutely critical for
the passkey ecosystem. 

393
00:21:48,540 --> 00:21:53,220
Because the security keys are 
the pluggable piece, right? 

394
00:21:53,300 --> 00:21:57,060
If you platform authenticators 
like Windows Hello and Face ID 

395
00:21:57,060 --> 00:22:01,220
on Apple, those things are what 
are going to enable the massive 

396
00:22:01,580 --> 00:22:04,740
part of the distribution curve 
to be successful. 

397
00:22:05,460 --> 00:22:08,770
But there is no reason why you 
can't create a security key that

398
00:22:08,770 --> 00:22:12,490
addresses a certain disability, 
right, or a security key that 

399
00:22:12,890 --> 00:22:15,730
innovates incredibly and takes 
us to the next level. 

400
00:22:15,730 --> 00:22:20,770
So without that plug ability and
that ability to to not have to 

401
00:22:21,450 --> 00:22:25,130
completely depend on the 
interface of the platform, I 

402
00:22:25,130 --> 00:22:29,330
think we would be limited in how
we could innovate in the future.

403
00:22:30,250 --> 00:22:33,130
Can you give an example of what 
an alternative security key 

404
00:22:33,130 --> 00:22:35,010
might look like? 
Because I know Microsoft has 

405
00:22:35,010 --> 00:22:37,690
spent a lot of time on hardware 
and things like that, like Xbox 

406
00:22:37,810 --> 00:22:39,400
has. 
Specific controllers for 

407
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:42,640
example, that are built with 
that population in mind. 

408
00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:45,040
What would a security key look 
like in that? 

409
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:47,640
Well, I can only tell you 
personally I, you know, I'm not 

410
00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,720
aware of of the different 
projects that are actually 

411
00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:53,840
officially going on. 
But I will say I did buy an Xbox

412
00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:57,000
Adaptive controller and the 
little button kit, and I do have

413
00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:01,560
this dream that one day you 
could actually, for example, you

414
00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:03,760
know, click a certain set of 
buttons in a certain certain 

415
00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:08,660
sequence to unlock your security
key hardware in it and send a 

416
00:23:08,660 --> 00:23:12,060
secure credential. 
But you know, I'm not aware of 

417
00:23:12,060 --> 00:23:16,340
anything official, but wouldn't.
It be cool but if anyone wants 

418
00:23:16,340 --> 00:23:19,940
to you know try it let me know. 
Yeah, Microsoft has made a lot 

419
00:23:19,940 --> 00:23:26,700
of, a lot of investment in those
adoptions of those adaptable 

420
00:23:26,700 --> 00:23:28,700
methods. 
The Surface Line has been with 

421
00:23:28,700 --> 00:23:30,500
that. 
I have a new Surface Book or 

422
00:23:30,500 --> 00:23:32,700
sorry Surface Laptop Studio Two 
at home. 

423
00:23:33,220 --> 00:23:34,940
Right. 
The haptic feedback and being 

424
00:23:34,940 --> 00:23:38,620
able to change the mouse pad 
based on your own ability to 

425
00:23:38,620 --> 00:23:42,620
sense the touches, it's like a 
duh, right? 

426
00:23:42,620 --> 00:23:44,020
Like, why didn't we think about 
that before? 

427
00:23:45,140 --> 00:23:46,700
Yeah, that's so true. 
And I find it impressive. 

428
00:23:47,300 --> 00:23:50,380
I want to switch over to 
Microsoft Intra because every 

429
00:23:50,380 --> 00:23:54,460
time I hear the word Microsoft 
Intra, it's always some news 

430
00:23:54,460 --> 00:23:56,380
announcement of OK, what do they
do now? 

431
00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:00,600
There was some recent, you know,
announcements made and 

432
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:04,120
rebranding or name changes. 
I'm never, I'm never quite sure 

433
00:24:04,120 --> 00:24:07,280
what the announcement is, so 
please take this with all the 

434
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:09,920
love in my heart. 
What is Microsoft Entra doing? 

435
00:24:10,120 --> 00:24:14,080
Who's this for? 
All right, so Microsoft Entra is

436
00:24:14,360 --> 00:24:18,080
is the identity product 
portfolio that we own. 

437
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,760
So we we basically got into an 
issue where Azure Active 

438
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:25,720
Directory was our brand but 
directory was in the name. 

439
00:24:26,390 --> 00:24:30,670
And the problem is we have 
expanded so much farther out 

440
00:24:30,670 --> 00:24:35,150
from directories that we needed 
a way to sort of start 

441
00:24:35,150 --> 00:24:37,550
differentiating between the 
different things within the 

442
00:24:37,550 --> 00:24:39,670
identity portfolio that we 
delivered. 

443
00:24:39,670 --> 00:24:45,470
And So what we ended up doing is
Entra is the is the umbrella 

444
00:24:45,470 --> 00:24:49,510
portfolio and within that we 
have Entra ID which is the 

445
00:24:49,510 --> 00:24:53,110
original Azure Active Directory.
So that's where users are stored

446
00:24:53,110 --> 00:24:56,880
and groups and all the amazing 
things that happen in any 

447
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,640
directory. 
And then we have expanded into 

448
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,400
the the set of other products 
which are the things you're 

449
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:06,280
hearing about. 
So for example, there's intra ID

450
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:09,840
governance. 
So that's your IGA tool. 

451
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,760
I don't want to list them all 
because you all would have your 

452
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:14,560
eyes rolled back in your head 
and you'd fall asleep. 

453
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,440
However, the you know things 
like team, so we have a cloud 

454
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:24,600
entitlement management piece, we
have intra verified ID which is 

455
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:26,680
our decentralized identity 
offering. 

456
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:30,080
And so the idea is that these 
things can now have their own 

457
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,960
identities, they can grow and 
have features added, and people 

458
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:39,080
can easily differentiate, but 
also have the the sense that we 

459
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:41,960
are integrating everything, that
it is all part of a family. 

460
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:47,240
So my experience with 
Microsoft's interest so far has 

461
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:49,360
been if you're in the Microsoft 
ecosystems are great. 

462
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:52,000
Tool, right. 
There's a lot of capabilities 

463
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,400
when you start to go away from 
the Microsoft ecosystem that 

464
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:59,560
there are some gaps there. 
Is that a fair criticism of 

465
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,400
Microsoft's intra as a whole? 
Is that something that's being 

466
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,040
addressed or are there things 
that I'm just not aware of that 

467
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:07,640
maybe it's just a bad rap and 
it's not warranted? 

468
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:09,480
Well, we're definitely working 
hard. 

469
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,200
I mean, we have heard that 
criticism before. 

470
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:16,000
We are definitely working hard 
to make sure that it isn't 

471
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,430
actually true. 
So you know we are obviously 

472
00:26:19,430 --> 00:26:21,990
standards forward as standards 
forward as we can be. 

473
00:26:22,230 --> 00:26:26,350
So we integrate via federation, 
we integrate provisioning via 

474
00:26:26,350 --> 00:26:30,310
skim, we integrate and you know 
we're working on shared signals 

475
00:26:30,310 --> 00:26:33,350
right now. 
So you know we're we're making 

476
00:26:33,350 --> 00:26:37,510
sure that we are modular and and
that goes a long way towards 

477
00:26:37,510 --> 00:26:42,830
that and we are a stand alone 
identity product but we also are

478
00:26:42,830 --> 00:26:45,990
the backbone for the entire 
Microsoft platform. 

479
00:26:45,990 --> 00:26:51,640
So we serve identity for Azure 
and for Office and for Dynamics,

480
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:54,240
all of that as well. 
So there, there's a balance 

481
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:59,840
there, but the way that we're 
really working on expanding, you

482
00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:02,160
know we can already federate to 
any application up there. 

483
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,440
So that piece is done. 
We can have folks federate into 

484
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:07,520
us. 
So we have you know folks like 

485
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:11,080
Duo and Okta and Ping have 
always been able to federate 

486
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:17,750
into the platform and then the 
the interesting piece right now 

487
00:27:17,750 --> 00:27:21,470
where we're heavily expanding is
in the multi cloud area, right. 

488
00:27:21,470 --> 00:27:26,630
So we can now govern GCP right 
or Google cloud resources, 

489
00:27:27,030 --> 00:27:29,190
Amazon resources and that sort 
of stuff. 

490
00:27:29,190 --> 00:27:32,590
So yes, we are. 
You know, we are moving in many 

491
00:27:32,590 --> 00:27:33,830
directions. 
Yeah. 

492
00:27:34,110 --> 00:27:37,390
So you're taking on the 
identity, governance and 

493
00:27:37,710 --> 00:27:41,230
administration. 
That is a big nut to crack. 

494
00:27:42,940 --> 00:27:46,820
Do you guys have a road map? 
Are you planning to kind of 

495
00:27:47,060 --> 00:27:48,900
build it with the existing 
tools? 

496
00:27:48,940 --> 00:27:51,500
I'm assuming you wouldn't be 
able to tell me even if you were

497
00:27:51,500 --> 00:27:55,660
going out to acquire something, 
but I mean that's all a multi 

498
00:27:55,660 --> 00:27:58,820
year road map to get to kind of 
best of breed. 

499
00:27:59,540 --> 00:28:01,260
Yeah it is. 
It's definitely a multi year 

500
00:28:01,260 --> 00:28:04,740
road map. 
You know we what we're trying to

501
00:28:04,740 --> 00:28:10,220
do is begin or center ourselves 
I guess is the right way to say 

502
00:28:10,580 --> 00:28:13,630
with things being built in and 
inherent. 

503
00:28:13,710 --> 00:28:20,310
So for example historically in 
governance there were concepts 

504
00:28:20,310 --> 00:28:24,270
of access certifications and 
access reviews and so we are 

505
00:28:24,270 --> 00:28:26,710
working more on the self-service
side of the house. 

506
00:28:27,030 --> 00:28:30,510
We have a concept called access 
packages, which I think is 

507
00:28:30,510 --> 00:28:33,790
really a useful concept, not not
just for Microsoft, but for 

508
00:28:33,790 --> 00:28:36,310
anyone, right? 
Which is groupings of resources 

509
00:28:36,310 --> 00:28:39,350
that people can self-service 
request so that we can then 

510
00:28:39,350 --> 00:28:43,590
manage and we can also do 
machine learning, anomaly 

511
00:28:43,590 --> 00:28:47,430
detection on right. 
So you know, the way that we 

512
00:28:47,430 --> 00:28:50,630
think this is going to work is, 
is to be able to, to keep that 

513
00:28:50,630 --> 00:28:56,670
governance centralized, be able 
to tell what's happening no 

514
00:28:56,670 --> 00:29:01,350
matter how far out your 
governance world goes, but do it

515
00:29:01,350 --> 00:29:05,290
with simple concepts. 
So you know, we aren't to my 

516
00:29:05,290 --> 00:29:06,650
knowledge. 
Am I going to get fired for 

517
00:29:06,650 --> 00:29:07,450
saying this? 
Maybe. 

518
00:29:07,850 --> 00:29:09,250
I don't think so, you know. 
I'll. 

519
00:29:10,730 --> 00:29:12,810
Beat this out. 
If we need to delete this, no, 

520
00:29:13,570 --> 00:29:17,130
you know, to my knowledge, it 
isn't our plan to go and make 

521
00:29:17,130 --> 00:29:19,890
sure we're doing role mining in 
every single part. 

522
00:29:19,890 --> 00:29:23,450
We have partners who are really 
good at that and we love our 

523
00:29:23,450 --> 00:29:25,370
partners. 
And so, yeah, what we're trying 

524
00:29:25,370 --> 00:29:29,170
to do is make sure that there is
an intuitive way for people to 

525
00:29:29,650 --> 00:29:32,690
perform anomaly detection, which
is really what governance is. 

526
00:29:32,690 --> 00:29:35,720
We never talk about it that way 
and we talk about governance as 

527
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:42,160
it's as if it's this sort of 
salty outside thing, right, like

528
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,040
reports and and all that. 
But it's not, It's anomaly 

529
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,960
detection, it's finding risk in 
your organization. 

530
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:53,280
And so, you know, we think that 
there's just a ton to do there 

531
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:57,600
that is maybe great value. 
I love what you said there about

532
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:03,160
we love our partners, the idea 
that be a platform people. 

533
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:06,480
Companies can build solutions 
that plug in. 

534
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:11,920
To me, that's the fastest way to
provide a solution and to expand

535
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:16,120
the platform, you know, said 
Octane 2 weeks ago. 

536
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:20,360
They're talking a lot about the 
road map for Workforce Identity 

537
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:25,480
Cloud and it's just a very big 
road map. 

538
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,520
And can it be achieved by 
developing it themselves? 

539
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:33,600
I think so, since they get a lot
of R&D dollars though and. 

540
00:30:33,970 --> 00:30:37,090
You know, I think it was kind of
platform focus and people could 

541
00:30:37,090 --> 00:30:40,570
build the solutions. 
The customer still gets what 

542
00:30:40,570 --> 00:30:43,210
they need, right? 
And the nice thing is then you 

543
00:30:43,210 --> 00:30:45,570
can build things that are 
specific to your verticals, 

544
00:30:45,570 --> 00:30:49,650
specific to your needs, right. 
If if your success is dependent 

545
00:30:50,050 --> 00:30:54,130
on us adding a bespoke feature, 
that's not a good way to go, 

546
00:30:54,250 --> 00:30:56,370
right? 
This just isn't how a platform 

547
00:30:56,410 --> 00:30:59,810
generally works. 
And so yes, I mean our partner 

548
00:30:59,970 --> 00:31:04,650
ecosystem is how we managed to, 
to have everyone get what they 

549
00:31:04,650 --> 00:31:08,930
need without that, without the 
massive backlog of, you know, 

550
00:31:08,930 --> 00:31:10,650
tiny features for this or for 
that. 

551
00:31:10,770 --> 00:31:12,530
Yeah. 
For this industry or for that 

552
00:31:12,530 --> 00:31:16,530
industry, I mean when you start 
breaking down what an IGA can do

553
00:31:16,530 --> 00:31:20,250
and for each different industry,
it can be enormous now. 

554
00:31:20,890 --> 00:31:23,410
You and I were talking about 
this, I think a few episodes ago

555
00:31:23,970 --> 00:31:26,610
where we would start if we were 
going to build an IM product. 

556
00:31:26,610 --> 00:31:29,680
I think we settled on IGA. 
Is like that's where we would 

557
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:32,080
start, because it feels like 
that's the hardest thing to do 

558
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:35,080
because we already have 
standards for authentication. 

559
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,440
We already have, you know, ideas
around how to do authorizations 

560
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:42,360
and things like that. 
But IGA is just this big hairy 

561
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,400
beast. 
Yeah, and I honestly feel like 

562
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,200
I'm not trying to dictate what 
your road map should be, but 

563
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,200
it's just please. 
Tell Microsoft what they should 

564
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:55,000
be doing here's. 
What Microsoft should do now, I 

565
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:57,610
think the. 
Identity administration, like 

566
00:31:57,610 --> 00:32:02,410
the request approve workflow, 
it's like, you know, there's so 

567
00:32:02,410 --> 00:32:08,210
much already there in 
traditional Azure AD that does 

568
00:32:08,210 --> 00:32:10,850
what people need. 
But the ability to kind of like 

569
00:32:10,850 --> 00:32:13,530
go through and either 
self-service request or manage 

570
00:32:13,530 --> 00:32:17,930
your request access, to me 
that's one of the areas that 

571
00:32:18,290 --> 00:32:20,890
people want the most. 
Yeah, I completely agree. 

572
00:32:20,890 --> 00:32:25,930
I I mean, I think this is where 
the machine learning comes in of

573
00:32:26,350 --> 00:32:30,230
trying to understand what people
are trying to do and give them 

574
00:32:30,870 --> 00:32:34,070
whatever ceremony they need to 
be successful, right, And 

575
00:32:34,070 --> 00:32:37,550
understand it in advance. 
I think that's, you know, one of

576
00:32:37,550 --> 00:32:41,190
the ways that this industry is 
going to innovate in the next 

577
00:32:41,190 --> 00:32:44,110
three years. 
I would say though to me the 

578
00:32:44,110 --> 00:32:47,830
most difficult thing for our for
the industry's future right now 

579
00:32:47,830 --> 00:32:52,550
is actually ITDR, the identity 
threat detection and response 

580
00:32:53,990 --> 00:32:57,190
because you have to have signal,
you have to signal to operate on

581
00:32:57,710 --> 00:33:01,670
and there is and that that 
signal can be extremely low 

582
00:33:01,670 --> 00:33:05,390
level signal right have. 
A ton of data to work with. 

583
00:33:05,470 --> 00:33:09,830
We have so much, but we we do 
and and we're working very hard 

584
00:33:10,030 --> 00:33:11,790
on leveraging it. 
I mean, you know, the number 

585
00:33:11,790 --> 00:33:16,990
that I think we're giving is 65 
trillion signals or something 

586
00:33:17,430 --> 00:33:19,670
insane like that. 
That's it, That's it. 

587
00:33:19,710 --> 00:33:22,230
But a trillion? 
I don't even know what comes 

588
00:33:22,230 --> 00:33:24,800
after a trillion. 
Do you know quadrillion? 

589
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:29,200
I guess a quadrillion. 
I'll just ask Bing with ChatGPT 

590
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:32,320
or Open AI integration, right. 
How's that for a plug or? 

591
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:38,400
Bing, right? 
Who is intra for? 

592
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:41,200
And more importantly, that sets 
me up for my follow up question 

593
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:45,000
is who is Intra not for? 
That's a really good question. 

594
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:47,280
Also possibly a question that 
could get me fired, but I'm 

595
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:49,000
going to go for it. 
What the heck. 

596
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:55,370
So I think Intra Intra has a 
really interesting dual role in 

597
00:33:55,370 --> 00:33:59,210
my opinion, right. 
The great thing about Intra is 

598
00:33:59,210 --> 00:34:04,770
that you can stand it up with 
almost nothing else. 

599
00:34:04,850 --> 00:34:08,050
If you're a small company, you 
can stand up Intra that you know

600
00:34:08,050 --> 00:34:11,250
there's a free tier that you can
stand up that is going to get 

601
00:34:11,250 --> 00:34:13,449
you single sign on. 
It's going to get you managing 

602
00:34:13,449 --> 00:34:16,130
your users. 
And so, you know, so I think 

603
00:34:16,130 --> 00:34:22,000
that if you're someone who's 
willing to embrace that idea, 

604
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:25,760
who wants some of this rigor, 
you can have that rigor even if 

605
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,639
you're a tiny customer. 
And of course if you want 

606
00:34:28,639 --> 00:34:31,080
premium features, you still have
to pay for premium features, 

607
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:34,760
right. 
However, what you don't have to 

608
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:38,120
be as a big customer because 
it's a platform and everything 

609
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:41,679
is generally self-service. 
So and there's a lot of 

610
00:34:41,679 --> 00:34:44,320
community and you can go in and 
learn what's going on. 

611
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:47,920
So there's I think the 
accessibility for a smaller 

612
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:52,969
company is great. 
I do think that the there's a 

613
00:34:52,969 --> 00:34:57,370
lot of complexity to running any
large scale identity management 

614
00:34:58,730 --> 00:35:00,450
enterprise. 
I mean I think you both know 

615
00:35:00,450 --> 00:35:02,890
you're both living that every 
single day. 

616
00:35:02,890 --> 00:35:08,130
It's difficult for anyone to 
understand how to deploy access 

617
00:35:08,290 --> 00:35:11,690
packages and access 
certifications and all of these 

618
00:35:11,690 --> 00:35:18,090
incredibly complex concepts. 
However, what Entra is very, 

619
00:35:18,090 --> 00:35:21,330
very good at is the top end, 
right. 

620
00:35:21,330 --> 00:35:25,730
We work a lot with large 
multinational companies. 

621
00:35:26,090 --> 00:35:31,010
We work a lot with companies who
need to integrate their identity

622
00:35:31,010 --> 00:35:34,010
world with their security world 
and that's you know that's 

623
00:35:34,010 --> 00:35:37,330
another place where intra can be
extremely valuable. 

624
00:35:37,930 --> 00:35:43,250
But generally speaking you know 
we we are we suit those 

625
00:35:43,250 --> 00:35:47,110
professional you know cases if 
you if you have a see so and you

626
00:35:47,110 --> 00:35:51,870
have a an identity management 
dedicated team then intro's a 

627
00:35:51,870 --> 00:35:59,430
really good option for. 
You so in my day job I and the 

628
00:35:59,430 --> 00:36:02,510
Identity strategies, but to stay
sharp, one of the things I do is

629
00:36:02,510 --> 00:36:05,390
I get heavily involved in a lot 
of our projects. 

630
00:36:05,670 --> 00:36:11,150
I got involved with AB to C 
Azure AD implementation over the

631
00:36:11,150 --> 00:36:14,630
past year. 
Plus, the product's really good.

632
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:19,800
One thing, notice when Intra 
basically said OK, we're not 

633
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:27,320
calling you Azure AD anymore, 
but the subtext to it was B to C

634
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:31,720
is not affected by this. 
So still B to C Azure AD or 

635
00:36:31,720 --> 00:36:36,440
Azure ADB to CI think is more 
rightly, but why is that? 

636
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:38,120
Why didn't you just roll that in
as well? 

637
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:43,360
We so B to C is considered a 
legacy product at this time 

638
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:47,900
because we actually have a new 
rolled out product in preview 

639
00:36:48,380 --> 00:36:53,540
called Intra external ID. 
So you know we are still 

640
00:36:53,540 --> 00:36:56,220
supporting B to C obviously 
we're still working a ton with 

641
00:36:56,220 --> 00:37:00,500
customers on it, but intra 
external ID will is our sort of 

642
00:37:00,500 --> 00:37:04,900
future direction in that case 
and it's you know they obviously

643
00:37:04,900 --> 00:37:08,860
do much of the same thing, but 
we have changed some of our 

644
00:37:08,860 --> 00:37:13,220
fundamental architecture that we
think is going to really benefit

645
00:37:13,220 --> 00:37:16,000
people moving forward. 
One of the things, one of the, I

646
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:17,680
don't know if you would call it 
a feature because I think it's 

647
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:22,440
core to the product is the Graph
API and building that on top of 

648
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:24,600
that. 
Building B to C on top of the 

649
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:28,720
Graph API just opened it up to 
it can do whatever you want. 

650
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,040
I thought that was really cool. 
I wanted to call that out. 

651
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:35,160
Yeah, it's interesting that I 
mean what it's really good for 

652
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:39,960
both entry ID, external ID and 
and B to C are amazing because 

653
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:43,400
everything is programmatic. 
So you, you know you don't have 

654
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:47,000
to be in heavily working with 
any UI if you don't want to. 

655
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:49,840
You can automate everything 
because a lot of our largest 

656
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:53,760
customers, they're not touching 
this thing with a 10 foot pole, 

657
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:56,360
right. 
Without like there isn't, 

658
00:37:56,360 --> 00:38:00,120
there's no chance for typos. 
They have this thing regimented.

659
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,800
They do roll outs and you know 
and change management windows 

660
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,240
and so you know so the 
automation piece is a huge value

661
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,760
for our customers and that you 
know that's that's a size thing 

662
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:14,100
at some point, right. 
How how much of A machine is 

663
00:38:14,100 --> 00:38:17,100
your retail website? 
That kind of thing. 

664
00:38:17,980 --> 00:38:19,300
Can we talk a little bit about 
AI? 

665
00:38:19,940 --> 00:38:23,300
Because I feel like Microsoft 
has made a lot of investment 

666
00:38:23,300 --> 00:38:26,460
obviously from AAI perspective 
with Open AI. 

667
00:38:27,740 --> 00:38:29,660
I've been a big fan of it for a 
while now. 

668
00:38:29,820 --> 00:38:33,740
I think it's captured the minds 
and maybe the hearts of a lot of

669
00:38:33,740 --> 00:38:37,540
people. 
Bing was very much early on in 

670
00:38:37,540 --> 00:38:39,690
adopting that. 
I don't want to get into like 

671
00:38:39,690 --> 00:38:43,770
product, but I'm just curious 
where do you see AI fitting into

672
00:38:44,570 --> 00:38:47,810
what you do from an identity 
perspective for Microsoft, 

673
00:38:48,050 --> 00:38:49,930
right. 
Yeah, it's really exciting. 

674
00:38:50,050 --> 00:38:55,170
It's very exciting. 
I'm not the authority, so you 

675
00:38:55,210 --> 00:38:57,210
know, I what I say I believe is 
true. 

676
00:38:57,890 --> 00:39:02,250
Others may disagree, but where 
we're really excited in identity

677
00:39:02,730 --> 00:39:06,890
about AI is that, you know, 
we've had machine learning for a

678
00:39:06,890 --> 00:39:10,560
long time, I don't know, maybe 
as long as 10 years, something 

679
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:12,640
like that. 
Where we're going in, we're 

680
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:15,880
doing the trend analysis, we're 
doing the the detection of 

681
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:17,560
anomalies. 
All of that stuff has been 

682
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:21,440
around for a long time. 
Where the generative AI comes in

683
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:25,080
is being able in some sense to 
put a face on it. 

684
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:29,240
So you know, sense making is a 
huge problem in the industry 

685
00:39:29,240 --> 00:39:31,040
right now. 
We're churning out the the 

686
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:34,560
signals, we're churning out the 
data, but it doesn't help if we 

687
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:37,490
can't make sense of it. 
And that's really where the Gen.

688
00:39:37,490 --> 00:39:40,850
AI piece that you know that that
you know we have generally 

689
00:39:40,850 --> 00:39:44,530
branded as Co pilot becomes 
really interesting because now 

690
00:39:44,530 --> 00:39:48,970
we can take all of that amazing 
trend analysis and use 

691
00:39:49,370 --> 00:39:53,610
interactive conversation and 
interactive questioning to help 

692
00:39:53,610 --> 00:39:57,330
people make use of it. 
So that's you know that's for me

693
00:39:57,330 --> 00:40:00,190
at least that's the really 
exciting piece and of course Co 

694
00:40:00,190 --> 00:40:04,690
pilot is a very intentional 
branding decision not. 

695
00:40:05,110 --> 00:40:09,270
Not for selling stuff, but 
because it is not meant to 

696
00:40:09,270 --> 00:40:11,630
replace people. 
It is meant to help people. 

697
00:40:11,950 --> 00:40:16,150
And so it's really all about 
people working with the AI to 

698
00:40:16,150 --> 00:40:19,710
learn and to grow and to 
leverage rather than, you know, 

699
00:40:19,790 --> 00:40:23,590
the machine taking over. 
I do think that that is a rather

700
00:40:23,590 --> 00:40:30,150
brilliant branding of Co pilot. 
Did your definition of AI 

701
00:40:30,150 --> 00:40:33,350
changed? 
Change when you saw what large 

702
00:40:33,350 --> 00:40:37,180
language models and generative? 
Could do or have you like yeah, 

703
00:40:37,180 --> 00:40:39,300
that's just sort of the next. 
Yeah, for me it was a 

704
00:40:39,300 --> 00:40:42,620
revelation. 
I had no idea like I I am 

705
00:40:42,700 --> 00:40:48,780
absolutely the person who would 
say AIML as if it was one, right

706
00:40:48,780 --> 00:40:49,980
AIML. 
This, you're not alone. 

707
00:40:49,980 --> 00:40:52,380
I think everybody was doing it. 
I was doing that, right? 

708
00:40:53,220 --> 00:40:58,220
And then I saw the demo from 
Open AI and I was like, what? 

709
00:40:58,420 --> 00:41:00,140
Right? 
Like that is going to change 

710
00:41:00,180 --> 00:41:01,500
things. 
And I think even Microsoft has 

711
00:41:01,500 --> 00:41:05,210
jumped into having, you know. 
Organizations be able to run 

712
00:41:05,210 --> 00:41:10,170
their own large language models 
in their own tenant so that 

713
00:41:10,170 --> 00:41:12,330
their data is not getting 
somewhere else, which I think is

714
00:41:12,330 --> 00:41:17,730
brilliant because I do see this 
battle for dominance over who 

715
00:41:17,730 --> 00:41:22,530
has the best model and I don't 
think it's going to be A1 size 

716
00:41:22,530 --> 00:41:24,010
fits all. 
I think you'll have a general 

717
00:41:24,210 --> 00:41:28,090
model that is sort of like this,
interfaced everything, and then 

718
00:41:28,530 --> 00:41:32,530
some sort of segregation of 
company data running within 

719
00:41:32,530 --> 00:41:35,280
another model. 
So I absolutely see the value 

720
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:37,760
there. 
That's not the final level of 

721
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:41,040
security then having a 
classification model that you 

722
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:45,440
then enforce to say this data 
can't show up in Jeff's. 

723
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:48,040
Yeah, I question. 
Yeah. 

724
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:50,640
And his copilot, right. 
He doesn't need to know the 

725
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:53,520
secret HR data. 
Yeah, and obviously identity 

726
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:58,800
controls are going to be needed 
to separate what bits and which 

727
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,460
model I can. 
Manipulator. 

728
00:42:01,460 --> 00:42:02,300
See. 
Yes. 

729
00:42:02,300 --> 00:42:04,580
Well, the other big investment 
we've been making for a very 

730
00:42:04,580 --> 00:42:08,860
long time is responsible AI. 
So it's not just a matter of, 

731
00:42:09,180 --> 00:42:11,900
you know, creating the robot 
robots and letting them March on

732
00:42:11,900 --> 00:42:14,780
the village, right. 
We have for a very long time 

733
00:42:14,780 --> 00:42:18,860
been looking at where the guard 
guardrails need to be so that 

734
00:42:18,860 --> 00:42:21,500
this technology can be safely 
deployed. 

735
00:42:21,500 --> 00:42:25,060
And you know, oversight, you 
have to have oversight. 

736
00:42:25,460 --> 00:42:28,420
So all of those things have to 
work together before the 

737
00:42:28,420 --> 00:42:31,220
business tool becomes the 
accelerator we know it can be. 

738
00:42:31,820 --> 00:42:35,820
How often do you use AI? 
Well you know The funny thing is

739
00:42:35,820 --> 00:42:41,620
I took a photography course a 
couple of weeks ago and so not 

740
00:42:41,620 --> 00:42:47,380
tech, not geeky anything and the
instructor just on a whim opened

741
00:42:47,380 --> 00:42:51,980
up Adobe Photoshop, highlighted 
a a circle on a top of building 

742
00:42:51,980 --> 00:42:54,620
and said remove the crane like 
that. 

743
00:42:55,100 --> 00:42:57,740
Yeah, Firefly and Sensei are 
pretty amazing. 

744
00:42:58,390 --> 00:43:01,590
Yeah. 
I mean that's I think that in 

745
00:43:01,590 --> 00:43:06,790
daily life that is that kind of 
value is going to change how 

746
00:43:06,790 --> 00:43:11,510
people use it. 
I certainly use it at work a 

747
00:43:11,510 --> 00:43:14,310
little bit and I think that will
grow quite a bit. 

748
00:43:15,230 --> 00:43:17,510
Yeah, I think it's still, I 
mean, I use it quite a bit for a

749
00:43:17,510 --> 00:43:19,630
variety of things every kind of 
everywhere, right. 

750
00:43:19,670 --> 00:43:21,870
It's a good starting point if 
you're starting something. 

751
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:25,400
It still will hallucinate which 
is a friendly term for straight 

752
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:28,960
up lie of information you know 
that comes through. 

753
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:31,960
So I still think that there is 
you still need to know your 

754
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:34,720
subject. 
I don't know if I would trust it

755
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:37,800
to really go down the path of 
learning something. 

756
00:43:38,720 --> 00:43:41,200
It's probably good to a certain 
degree and then it starts kind 

757
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:42,760
of going off the rails. 
I'm sure that'll get better 

758
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:44,200
overtime kind of figure that 
out. 

759
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:45,680
But I use it for a variety of 
things. 

760
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:48,840
I use it for work. 
I use it for this podcast that 

761
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:51,760
helps with things like show 
notes and. 

762
00:43:52,260 --> 00:43:55,300
Audio editing and there's just 
so many different things that 

763
00:43:55,300 --> 00:43:57,620
it's gonna be interesting to see
how this is gonna roll through 

764
00:43:58,220 --> 00:44:00,900
the next five years. 
I think it's gonna be crazy. 

765
00:44:00,900 --> 00:44:03,580
I mean, we have enough audio at 
this point where, you know, I've

766
00:44:03,580 --> 00:44:07,860
toyed with making an episode 
with Jim and I using nothing, 

767
00:44:07,860 --> 00:44:10,660
just a script. 
I have enough audio to train, 

768
00:44:10,740 --> 00:44:13,220
you know, a voice to sound and 
all of our. 

769
00:44:13,220 --> 00:44:16,420
Subscribers start unsubscribing.
Right. 

770
00:44:16,780 --> 00:44:18,780
But I think this is something 
you're gonna see is this. 

771
00:44:18,780 --> 00:44:21,040
It's almost like. 
You know, you see a lot of, like

772
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:25,600
articles that were like, it was 
generated by AI and they're of 

773
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:29,160
varying quality. 
And big news organizations have 

774
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:32,200
started to adopt this where they
say, OK, well, we can't possibly

775
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:34,080
cover every high school sports 
game in the world. 

776
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:37,640
So they have AI write some 
little blurb about some data 

777
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:41,000
that was fed to it by something.
I think you're going to see that

778
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:45,080
with video, with audio, where 
it's like, oh, I have this idea 

779
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:48,840
for a thing, you know, create a 
YouTube video that talks about 

780
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:52,290
this. 
And next thing you know you're 

781
00:44:52,290 --> 00:44:56,530
watching this thing, it's 
interesting I'm I'm on the 

782
00:44:56,530 --> 00:44:58,890
program committee for a couple 
of the different identity 

783
00:44:58,890 --> 00:45:04,290
conferences and at least right 
now and it may not last very 

784
00:45:04,290 --> 00:45:09,930
long, there are certain 
percentage of the abstracts that

785
00:45:09,930 --> 00:45:11,930
might be wrong. 
I mean, I might be, it might be 

786
00:45:11,930 --> 00:45:15,490
that the that I'm only 
identifying a fraction of the 

787
00:45:15,650 --> 00:45:18,450
like, some of them might be so 
well written that I can't even 

788
00:45:18,450 --> 00:45:21,650
tell. 
And if so, more power to 

789
00:45:21,650 --> 00:45:24,410
everyone, right? 
But yeah, it's it's into a 

790
00:45:24,410 --> 00:45:27,410
certain thing where you get an 
abstract that talks about things

791
00:45:27,410 --> 00:45:31,170
and uses all the right terms, 
but they're not actually related

792
00:45:31,170 --> 00:45:34,490
to each other in a way that 
would make sense to a rational 

793
00:45:34,490 --> 00:45:37,770
human being. 
I like the keyword rational 

794
00:45:37,770 --> 00:45:40,090
human being. 
You spent a lot of time with us 

795
00:45:40,090 --> 00:45:41,370
here. 
We definitely appreciate it. 

796
00:45:41,370 --> 00:45:43,850
We hope you'll come back, but we
want to end on a lighter note. 

797
00:45:44,770 --> 00:45:46,810
We kind of talked about some 
different ideas before we hit 

798
00:45:46,810 --> 00:45:48,700
record. 
You mentioned that you're in the

799
00:45:48,700 --> 00:45:53,660
process of renovating A 
Victorian home, and it sounds 

800
00:45:53,660 --> 00:45:56,740
like you've been doing that for 
a while and maybe we'll be doing

801
00:45:56,740 --> 00:46:02,460
that for a while. 
What is the thing that you 

802
00:46:02,460 --> 00:46:06,500
discovered that you just weren't
prepared for when you started 

803
00:46:06,500 --> 00:46:10,020
this journey? 
Well, so yes, we have. 

804
00:46:10,020 --> 00:46:17,900
A San Francisco Victorian home 
was built in 1891, if I remember

805
00:46:17,900 --> 00:46:22,060
correctly. 1891, yeah. 
And so I think the thing that 

806
00:46:22,060 --> 00:46:26,420
surprised me the most, which 
kind of tells what kind of IQ I 

807
00:46:26,420 --> 00:46:30,980
have, but I all of the trim in 
the house is Redwood first 

808
00:46:30,980 --> 00:46:32,820
growth Redwood. 
They were mowing down the 

809
00:46:32,820 --> 00:46:35,540
Redwood trees and to build these
homes back then. 

810
00:46:36,020 --> 00:46:41,340
And I, it was my job to strip 
all the paint off of the trim. 

811
00:46:42,460 --> 00:46:46,310
And I had the worst time because
they were, you know, it's a lot 

812
00:46:46,310 --> 00:46:48,190
of paint that you can apply to 
this stuff and it's all 

813
00:46:48,190 --> 00:46:50,470
different chemical makeups and 
all that kind of stuff. 

814
00:46:50,470 --> 00:46:54,710
And so I started with the Eco 
friendly paint, trim paint 

815
00:46:55,390 --> 00:46:56,670
dissolver. 
That did not work. 

816
00:46:57,230 --> 00:46:59,870
And I tried every single thing. 
And finally I figured out the 

817
00:46:59,870 --> 00:47:04,190
heat gun was the way to go. 
And so I spent two years, not 

818
00:47:04,190 --> 00:47:06,150
even kidding, two years 
stripping off. 

819
00:47:06,830 --> 00:47:10,070
Not once did I think that maybe 
there could be lead in that 

820
00:47:10,070 --> 00:47:15,250
paint. 
Not once until my husband's 

821
00:47:15,250 --> 00:47:19,330
daughter showed up one day and 
she said, you know, should you 

822
00:47:19,330 --> 00:47:22,650
check? 
And, and we were almost done. 

823
00:47:22,730 --> 00:47:25,530
I mean, I had been breathing 
those fumes for, for two years 

824
00:47:25,530 --> 00:47:28,050
at that time. 
And then we freaked out. 

825
00:47:28,170 --> 00:47:30,130
We freaked out. 
We didn't touch it for four 

826
00:47:30,130 --> 00:47:33,850
months. 
We went in with hazmat suits to 

827
00:47:33,850 --> 00:47:38,050
finish the last pieces of it. 
So yeah, not my finest moment. 

828
00:47:38,330 --> 00:47:40,490
So there's a chance that you may
actually glow in the dark. 

829
00:47:40,530 --> 00:47:42,130
It's possible. 
It is possible. 

830
00:47:42,130 --> 00:47:44,730
We did test it after the fact 
and there wasn't very much. 

831
00:47:44,730 --> 00:47:47,250
Left Well, one of the greatest 
things when you do an older 

832
00:47:47,250 --> 00:47:49,290
house. 
So my mother bought an older 

833
00:47:49,290 --> 00:47:52,330
house when I was a young 
teenager. 

834
00:47:52,730 --> 00:47:56,650
And you peel back the carpet 
like this Harvard floors there. 

835
00:47:56,650 --> 00:47:58,970
You're like, who put a carpet 
who for this. 

836
00:47:59,050 --> 00:48:02,330
But you just feel like you just 
discovered found gold. 

837
00:48:03,010 --> 00:48:05,250
Yeah, it's such a wonderful 
feeling. 

838
00:48:05,250 --> 00:48:10,040
We preserved as much as we could
and we tried to stick with the 

839
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:13,240
same feel, but now we're we've 
finished the inside and now 

840
00:48:13,240 --> 00:48:16,360
we're trying to do the outside 
and that involves recreating 

841
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:20,320
corbels and recreating trim and 
it's really nerve wracking 

842
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:24,200
because we don't know if we're 
going to do it justice. 

843
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:30,680
Or not now Pam, I didn't know 
you were a Calgary native and I 

844
00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:36,080
was in Calgary last weekend and 
went to Bam for the weekend and.

845
00:48:36,940 --> 00:48:38,780
One of the greatest places I've 
ever been. 

846
00:48:39,060 --> 00:48:43,340
But you know you must have some 
fond memories. 

847
00:48:43,340 --> 00:48:46,540
So what is your fondest Banff 
memory? 

848
00:48:46,660 --> 00:48:49,900
Oh gosh, yeah, I I misspent my 
youth in Banff. 

849
00:48:50,820 --> 00:48:53,140
I'm not sure it's my fondest 
memory, but one of my strongest 

850
00:48:53,140 --> 00:48:58,460
memories is actually probably 
the trip I had where I we were 

851
00:48:58,460 --> 00:49:01,420
mountain climbing, climbing a 
mountain called Mount Yamnuska. 

852
00:49:01,500 --> 00:49:04,620
I don't know if you saw that. 
It's on the way in, on the way 

853
00:49:04,620 --> 00:49:10,850
to Banff and I fell off and I 
broke my ankle in two places, 

854
00:49:10,930 --> 00:49:16,610
broke the tibia and wait tibia 
and yeah, something like that. 

855
00:49:17,370 --> 00:49:20,170
Anyways, I got helicoptered off 
the mountain and so I have this 

856
00:49:20,170 --> 00:49:25,330
huge memory that the helicopter 
couldn't land and you know we 

857
00:49:25,330 --> 00:49:27,370
had climbers came from all over 
the mountain. 

858
00:49:27,530 --> 00:49:33,340
It's an amazing thing that that 
whole community because was way 

859
00:49:33,340 --> 00:49:36,260
back, it's 1996, it was a long 
time ago and so there weren't 

860
00:49:36,260 --> 00:49:37,660
just cell phones you could call 
on. 

861
00:49:37,660 --> 00:49:40,460
And so and we didn't have cell 
service up on the mountain. 

862
00:49:40,460 --> 00:49:44,980
And so probably 20 different 
climbers gave up their climbs 

863
00:49:44,980 --> 00:49:49,780
that day because they ran a 
relay down the mountain. 

864
00:49:49,780 --> 00:49:51,940
So the people at the top turned 
around. 

865
00:49:52,060 --> 00:49:53,220
They were just coming to the 
top. 

866
00:49:53,220 --> 00:49:54,780
They turned around, they ran 
down till they met. 

867
00:49:54,780 --> 00:49:57,900
The next climbers said 
somebody's in trouble getting 

868
00:49:57,900 --> 00:50:00,770
ambulance and then those people 
turned around, they ran to the 

869
00:50:00,770 --> 00:50:04,450
next people and so they did this
crazy relay down just to be able

870
00:50:04,450 --> 00:50:07,170
to call the air ambulance to 
pick me up. 

871
00:50:07,530 --> 00:50:11,250
And then they couldn't land the 
the helicopter on the apron. 

872
00:50:11,690 --> 00:50:16,090
So they attached me to a 
stretcher that was hanging below

873
00:50:16,130 --> 00:50:19,250
the helicopter. 
And on a beautiful, beautiful 

874
00:50:19,250 --> 00:50:24,850
day I got flown over the valley 
and that was great. 

875
00:50:24,850 --> 00:50:27,290
I, you know, I was a little 
preoccupied at the time, but my 

876
00:50:27,290 --> 00:50:31,150
climbing partner, they had to, 
you know, they sort of sent me 

877
00:50:31,150 --> 00:50:34,190
in a stretcher with one 
attendant, and there was another

878
00:50:34,190 --> 00:50:37,670
attendant there. 
And so they actually let my 

879
00:50:37,670 --> 00:50:40,870
climbing partner clip his 
harness into the rope. 

880
00:50:41,550 --> 00:50:46,030
And so he flew over the valley 
suspended on his climbing 

881
00:50:46,030 --> 00:50:49,150
hardness, just underneath the 
helicopter. 

882
00:50:49,150 --> 00:50:52,630
And so he got to the hospital 
and I'm groggy and I'm in pain 

883
00:50:52,630 --> 00:50:55,230
and all of this, and he gets to 
the to the bedside. 

884
00:50:55,230 --> 00:50:58,050
He's like, damn, I'm so sorry 
this happened to me or to you, 

885
00:50:58,050 --> 00:51:01,650
but that was the best experience
of my whole life. 

886
00:51:01,690 --> 00:51:04,410
His fondest memory? 
Not yours, exactly. 

887
00:51:04,650 --> 00:51:07,530
I was going to say like, people 
probably had Banff on their 

888
00:51:07,850 --> 00:51:10,170
bucket list. 
You just gave you that. 

889
00:51:10,170 --> 00:51:14,050
That is your fondest story. 
And they're just like there's so

890
00:51:14,050 --> 00:51:15,850
much more. 
I mean Emerald Lake for example.

891
00:51:15,930 --> 00:51:18,970
If you go a little bit farther 
past, Banff is something you'll 

892
00:51:18,970 --> 00:51:21,490
never forget if. 
You go Lake Louise, Lake Louise.

893
00:51:21,490 --> 00:51:24,570
We got all the way up there and 
the parking lot was full. 

894
00:51:25,110 --> 00:51:28,830
But my funny story was we were 
going through the town, there's 

895
00:51:28,830 --> 00:51:34,510
a place that sold bear spray 
1295, and we just thought, get 

896
00:51:34,510 --> 00:51:38,190
that. 
And we told we I was there with 

897
00:51:38,190 --> 00:51:41,590
my girlfriend Denise, and we 
started to say, yeah, if we get 

898
00:51:41,590 --> 00:51:43,630
killed by a bear, the story will
go. 

899
00:51:43,750 --> 00:51:46,910
They're too cheap to buy 1295 
worth of bear spray. 

900
00:51:47,230 --> 00:51:51,630
They kind of had a cup, right? 
Yeah, we did have definitely had

901
00:51:51,670 --> 00:51:54,860
some bear encounters, but 
generally speaking, if you leave

902
00:51:54,860 --> 00:51:56,580
them alone, they usually leave 
you alone. 

903
00:51:56,580 --> 00:51:57,740
We're. 
Talking about brown bears or 

904
00:51:57,740 --> 00:51:59,380
black bears, Oh yeah, very 
different. 

905
00:51:59,380 --> 00:52:02,900
So brown bear you can scare away
unless it's really, really, 

906
00:52:02,900 --> 00:52:05,860
really, really hungry. 
And so if if a brown bear starts

907
00:52:05,860 --> 00:52:08,500
to follow you, it probably wants
to eat you. 

908
00:52:08,700 --> 00:52:10,940
So there's it is really 
important to know the 

909
00:52:10,940 --> 00:52:12,860
difference. 
Whereas a grizzly bear will 

910
00:52:12,860 --> 00:52:14,740
charge you if it feels 
threatened and you can play 

911
00:52:14,740 --> 00:52:19,860
dead, but if a brown bear 
charges you it, you know, if you

912
00:52:19,860 --> 00:52:21,780
play dead, you're kind of just 
offering yourself a business. 

913
00:52:22,020 --> 00:52:23,300
Yeah, I saw Revenant. 
That didn't work. 

914
00:52:25,290 --> 00:52:27,490
Pam, you've been really just of 
your time and I'm really glad 

915
00:52:27,490 --> 00:52:30,810
we're able to get this 
conversation in long time coming

916
00:52:30,850 --> 00:52:33,050
long overdue. 
I hope you'll come back. 

917
00:52:34,290 --> 00:52:35,490
Any final thoughts before we 
wrap up? 

918
00:52:36,610 --> 00:52:39,650
No, only that I'm really glad 
you exist in this industry. 

919
00:52:40,250 --> 00:52:41,770
It matters a lot. 
Thank you. 

920
00:52:41,770 --> 00:52:43,890
I'm happy I exist too, and I'm 
sure Jim is too. 

921
00:52:45,650 --> 00:52:47,130
We'll go and leave it there for 
this week. 

922
00:52:47,210 --> 00:52:50,170
You can find us on the web at 
idacpodcast.com. 

923
00:52:50,650 --> 00:52:54,290
We're on Twitter or X or 
whatever at IDAC Podcast. 

924
00:52:54,690 --> 00:52:58,410
We're on Mastodon at IDAC 
Podcast, at infosec dot 

925
00:52:58,410 --> 00:53:00,930
exchange. 
We'll have links in our show 

926
00:53:00,930 --> 00:53:02,730
notes. 
You can connect with Pam 

927
00:53:03,090 --> 00:53:08,610
ourselves, whoever you'd like, 
subscribe like thumbs up, 

928
00:53:08,890 --> 00:53:11,290
review, whatever it is. 
Yeah, that's that's all stuff 

929
00:53:11,290 --> 00:53:16,530
that helps us get great guests 
like Pam, and hopefully we get 

930
00:53:16,530 --> 00:53:17,690
more. 
So we'll leave it there. 

931
00:53:18,180 --> 00:53:20,220
Thanks everyone for listening 
and we'll talk with everyone in 

932
00:53:20,220 --> 00:53:22,980
the next. 
You've been listening to 

933
00:53:22,980 --> 00:53:26,860
Identity at the Center. 
We hope you've enjoyed the show.

934
00:53:27,060 --> 00:53:31,260
Make sure to like, rate and 
review and we'll be back soon. 

935
00:53:31,420 --> 00:53:33,700
But in the meantime, hit the 
website at 

936
00:53:33,700 --> 00:53:40,820
identity@thecenter.com and find 
us on Twitter at IDAC Podcast. 

937
00:53:41,260 --> 00:53:45,380
See you next time on identity at
the center.