1 00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:11,080 This is identity at the center. Welcome to the Identity at the 2 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:12,800 Center podcast. I'm Jeff, and that's Jim. 3 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:14,200 Hey, Jim. Hey, Jeff, how are you? 4 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:15,400 Oh. Not so bad yourself, I'm. 5 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:18,240 Doing great. We're here at Authenticate 2025. 6 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:22,040 You know, the vendor halls, like it's a smaller vendor hall, but 7 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:25,480 it gives you more time and more ability to focus. 8 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:31,440 And one of the coolest things I saw was the Fido booth, right? 9 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:36,560 And they have on the Fido booth these fingerprints on like 10 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:38,480 pieces of gum and stuff like that. 11 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:40,680 And they also have like this face mask. 12 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:43,480 Wait, wait, wait, wait. Fingerprints on gum? 13 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:46,080 That does not sound. So it doesn't. 14 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:49,000 Sound healthy? And it's not modern, right? 15 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:51,360 But the idea is like 3 years ago. 16 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:54,600 These are the the hacks you were looking to prevent. 17 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:55,160 Right. And they're. 18 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:58,760 Like put a mask on and pretend you're somebody else. 19 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:03,040 Or you could do some kind of wamboozle with fingerprints and 20 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:04,519 gum, yeah. Walk up here. 21 00:01:04,519 --> 00:01:05,800 Can you put your thumb in here please? 22 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:08,760 Yeah. And with AI the deep face are 23 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:12,880 whole new world. So really I think that's kind of 24 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:15,360 at the heart of where this conference is right now. 25 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:19,120 It's like those masks kind of like brought you back three 26 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:20,640 years, like that's where we were. 27 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:23,920 Where we are today is AI just does that. 28 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:28,680 And if you're not on technology that can prevent that, well, 29 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:31,760 you're not in a good place. I don't think we can prevent it. 30 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:34,160 I think the best you can do is to hope to mitigate it to some 31 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:35,760 degree. But there will be. 32 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:38,560 Yeah, it's it's getting easier to do AI stuff. 33 00:01:38,960 --> 00:01:40,960 I thought for sure you're going to bring up Phyto Feud, the 34 00:01:40,960 --> 00:01:42,720 rematch. This is the first time we're 35 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:43,920 actually, like, talking about it. 36 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:47,280 That was a real highlight. A tie. 37 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:49,840 Well, do we want to give it away or we're going to release? 38 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:51,760 The episode, it'll be an it'll be an episode, Yeah. 39 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:53,040 It'll get out there at some point. 40 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:55,240 And it is a tie. Yeah, it ended as a tie, which I 41 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:57,480 thought was there was some. Questionable judging, I'm not 42 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:01,640 sure who is behind the scenes like pushing all the buttons but 43 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:03,000 whatever. Yeah. 44 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:07,240 So how do you feel about like the match because you were down 45 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:10,320 and then you got up and then it came down to the last question 46 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:13,640 and literally ended up with a tie for points I. 47 00:02:13,640 --> 00:02:18,120 Was happy with the way it went. I thought one of the cool 48 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:23,160 moments was that someone had answered something and the 49 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:28,040 judges like gave that person credit and the audience booed. 50 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:30,640 And that told me like, oh, people really care. 51 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:34,560 People are actually booing what's going on? 52 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:37,240 Like you have to care. It's not just polite clapping. 53 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:39,120 Yeah, I know There were boos, there were cheers. 54 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:42,040 It was those interesting. I think it sets up, you know, 55 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:46,240 Fido feud, the rematch of the rematch 2026, Yeah. 56 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:49,360 So, you know, a year from now, maybe we'll have settled it. 57 00:02:49,640 --> 00:02:52,280 From now, though, Megan gets to keep the you know, the necklace 58 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:53,880 with the. The tiniest trophy ever. 59 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:55,080 Yeah, I could have fought over it. 60 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:57,360 But, you know, I mean, I probably would have lost it and 61 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:01,160 then felt like a real jerk. So you know, it's better staying 62 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:02,840 with her. Yeah, no, it was a good time. 63 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:05,360 Happy we were able to come back and do it and hopefully get 64 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:06,640 invited to do it again next year. 65 00:03:06,640 --> 00:03:09,000 But I just figured, like, this is the first time we've had a 66 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:10,040 chance to like, sit and talk about it. 67 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:14,000 Great moment, great conference, having a great time, Yeah. 68 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:19,600 So let's see, we're at Authenticate 2025 and we have 69 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:21,800 guests today. Let me get my notes here. 70 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:26,260 Tina Srivastava, she's a PHDID Pro board member and the Co 71 00:03:26,260 --> 00:03:28,680 founder of Badge Inc Hope I got all that correct. 72 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:31,040 Welcome back, Tina. Hey, great to be back. 73 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:33,200 So I always enjoy our conversations. 74 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:36,000 We actually met, I actually met Tina for the first time here two 75 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:38,400 years ago, three years ago. It was like the food truck year, 76 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:40,320 I think, or one of the food truck years not doing anything 77 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:42,720 this year. And so we were sitting down at a 78 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:45,040 table and she's kind of tell me what you worked on and now 79 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:47,000 you're part of ID pro. But let's talk about 80 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:50,640 authenticate 2025 S you hear at the conference, like what do you 81 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:52,600 think about the conference? How's it going for you? 82 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:55,200 Any highlights that you want to bring up? 83 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:59,840 Yeah, it's a it's great to be back and we're back here in 84 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:02,920 Carlsbad. I started coming to authenticate 85 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:06,360 back when it was in Seattle, but now I think we've really filled 86 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:10,440 into this location. People have a a regular routine 87 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:12,760 and flow. And yeah, I think there's a lot 88 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:16,560 of great sessions really checking in on what is the 89 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:19,920 regulatory environment like, how are things getting accepted, how 90 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:22,840 are we getting adoption, What are the challenges that we're 91 00:04:22,840 --> 00:04:27,160 facing on the privacy front. So all the real topics. 92 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:30,240 And of course, just what you were talking about, how are 93 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:34,560 these attacks evolving? How is AI supercharging these 94 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,400 attacks? And it's even more critical in 95 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:40,680 this world of Gen. AI to ensure authenticity. 96 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:43,480 And I feel like it's a practitioners conference. 97 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:47,480 It's not like just all technology vendors kind of 98 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:49,440 looking at each other's technology. 99 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:52,480 Like there are actual practitioners here looking for 100 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:54,760 solutions to real world problems. 101 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:59,560 Oh yeah, absolutely. In fact, on my session later 102 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:01,960 today, we're going to have Bill, right. 103 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:06,480 So bringing such a depth of experience from USAA Bank and 104 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:11,680 talking about having to overcome the challenges of implementing 105 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:19,080 consumer facing authentication authorization for members that 106 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:22,120 in that case of course there are a lot of service members. 107 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,560 So how to deal with the challenges of not necessarily 108 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:29,200 being connected, moving across different devices, being a 109 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:33,240 submariner and being completely out of content for for nine 110 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:35,280 months, right. How is that, how's your fraud 111 00:05:35,280 --> 00:05:37,760 risk profile going to really characterize that? 112 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:40,760 And then of course, the work side where the workforce and 113 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:43,720 we're seeing more and more challenges with again with the 114 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:49,160 just supercharging of AI attacks on these individuals and trying 115 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:51,560 to get gain access, elevate privilege. 116 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:54,720 And so absolutely, seeing the practitioners out there dealing 117 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:58,360 with the onslaught of threats. So is that spoiling it? 118 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:00,760 Because by the time people listen to this episode, it'll be 119 00:06:00,840 --> 00:06:02,520 3-4 weeks in the future probably. 120 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:05,600 Is that the talk you're giving? Is there more you want to share? 121 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:08,480 Like for people who maybe for people who aren't able to be 122 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:11,280 here and authenticate, right? Either it's on site or on a 123 00:06:11,280 --> 00:06:13,760 stream like. What is the gist of the 124 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:14,880 conversation that you're having there? 125 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:20,720 Well, the reason that we came up with, we as an industry came up 126 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:22,840 with synced pass keys was because. 127 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:27,520 We were sort of between a rock and a hard place with how do we 128 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:31,520 overcome account recovery? How do we overcome people 129 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:35,520 switching between devices? And the idea that your your 130 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:39,760 private key was bound to your phone was simply too restrictive 131 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:44,760 to meet what most users needed. And so synced passkeys were 132 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:49,000 supposed to be the way forward. But the security questions that 133 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:52,800 it opened up data provenance where, you know, key provenance 134 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:58,120 and if I could just AirDrop my key to you, then we where you 135 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:02,240 know, how can we really rely on this passkey for security? 136 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:05,440 And NIST brought up a lot of questions around if we don't 137 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:08,840 have user verification at the time that we're using the 138 00:07:08,840 --> 00:07:12,240 passkey, then how do we know, you know, is it Jim or Jeff 139 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:17,720 that's using this pass key? And So what we are unfolding on 140 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:21,920 stage with Bill as well as Pedro Martinez from Tallis, also a 141 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:25,560 depth of experience in the financial regulatory banking 142 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:28,480 area is how are regulators seeing this? 143 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:32,240 And in fact, what we're seeing is that the payment providers 144 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:34,960 are just going backwards and they're saying, OK, if we're 145 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:39,360 using a pass key, we're going to have device binding, which is 146 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:41,840 sort. Of like the opposite of why did 147 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:44,200 they even go to passkeys in the first place? 148 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:49,520 And so it really brings to focus how important resolving account 149 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:53,600 recovery, moving across devices, how that all is, because if you 150 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:57,080 have your passkey on your phone and then you don't have that 151 00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:01,000 phone, now all of a sudden you're falling back to insecure 152 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:03,520 methods. So if we can really close that 153 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:07,280 gap and make it possible to recover your account on a new 154 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:10,880 device, get a passkey when you cross, you know, Google, 155 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:14,040 Microsoft, Apple, that's really going to be critical. 156 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:16,920 And so that's the path forward that that we discuss. 157 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:22,200 So, right, you mentioned regulators and you know, my 158 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:26,080 mind, regulators are notoriously slow at keeping up and catching 159 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:29,440 up to where things are at. How do we talk to regulators? 160 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:31,520 And I know you've got experience talking in front of Congress, 161 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:32,840 and I just wanted to say that, right? 162 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:35,640 But how do we talk to regulators to say, look, this is where we 163 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:38,600 need to be and This is why it's secure and sort of, you know, 164 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,280 make them comfortable with it? How do we make that case to 165 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:43,880 those types of folks? Yeah, that's a great question. 166 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:45,440 And yeah, thank you for bringing it up. 167 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:49,600 It was great speaking to the bipartisan Congressional AI 168 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:51,880 Caucus. And what we've seen is that 169 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:56,440 policymakers are receptive to understanding what are the 170 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:59,160 threats and the challenges coming about today. 171 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:03,120 And unfortunately, we don't really have a choice but to, you 172 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:06,920 know, we don't have the choice to stick with legacy methods 173 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:09,840 because they're not sufficient to protect us from the next 174 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:13,040 generation of threats. I mean, let's just take phishing 175 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:15,600 as an example. Phishing has evolved from 176 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:21,600 something that you could train people to be able to detect, 177 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:23,800 right? You know, misspellings in 178 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:28,360 emails, awkward phrasing, not really expecting that e-mail. 179 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:32,120 And so you could train people not to click on certain types of 180 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:35,000 links. And even if you did have a very 181 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:38,960 effective phishing campaign, it took a lot for those attackers 182 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:42,560 to tailor it, to really customize it into something that 183 00:09:42,560 --> 00:09:45,920 might be successful. Well, what about AI, right? 184 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:51,600 So now you can add a mass scale, tailor, customize, improve your 185 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:55,840 phishing emails and make it that much easier for people to click 186 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:59,000 on these links. We've made QR code, something 187 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:02,280 that even AQR code. I mean, look on this water can 188 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:05,520 behind you, Jim. There's AQR code, right? 189 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:08,320 People scan them anywhere, everywhere and. 190 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:11,760 And it's the same thing as clicking on links and so we've 191 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:14,360 really seen. Mean that phishing in the world 192 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:18,440 of AI has just become supercharged and so getting 193 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:22,600 towards phishing resistant authentication is absolutely 194 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:24,920 critical. Well, it's, it's, it's, it's 195 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:27,600 inherently convenient to have AQR code, right? 196 00:10:27,680 --> 00:10:30,080 And then, but it's also makes it really convenient to drive by 197 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:31,680 malware. You don't know what you're 198 00:10:31,680 --> 00:10:33,440 scanning. I remember, you know, originally 199 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:36,160 when we were seven, several years ago when we were doing the 200 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:39,880 podcast, you know, we did like a TinyURL and we got a lot of 201 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:43,440 blowback from the information security group is like, don't 202 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:46,400 use tiny URLs, don't use URL shorteners because people want 203 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:49,240 to know what they're clicking, which, sure, OK, Yeah, totally 204 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:50,680 makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 205 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:52,560 But we're doing the same thing with QR codes. 206 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:54,560 You don't know what you're scanning, right? 207 00:10:54,560 --> 00:10:56,800 And they're all over the place. And how do you trust something 208 00:10:56,800 --> 00:10:58,320 like that? I always point back to the 209 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:02,040 Nigerian Prince who used to be, you know, very, very poorly 210 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:05,440 educated from like an English trans, you know, perspective to 211 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:08,160 send those emails to people. But now there's no 212 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:10,440 differentiation. It's super easy to create 213 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:13,920 something that is targeted in the right language, the right 214 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:18,560 tone, phonetics, audio, visual, all that stuff is out there and, 215 00:11:18,560 --> 00:11:22,080 and understanding the Providence of where does that piece of 216 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:24,760 information come from? Can we trust it? 217 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:27,280 Like obviously I know you're here, right? 218 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:29,920 But if someone's watching this, like could easily, you know, be 219 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:32,200 a digital fake of you, right? I don't know how we get past 220 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:36,840 that other than education. And do we need regulators to 221 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:41,800 talk through like, OK, is it like a watermark on digital? 222 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:44,040 How are you going to explain that to, you know, Jim, your 223 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:46,240 dad, we always put, you know, point to is like someone who's 224 00:11:46,560 --> 00:11:48,520 not up on the technology side. Well, you got to look for the 225 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:50,560 watermark. Now you got things like Sore 2, 226 00:11:50,560 --> 00:11:53,280 which is going absolutely nuts stuff. 227 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:55,360 So it's a very interesting time that we're living in right now. 228 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:58,760 Yeah, And I think the watermark analogy is very apartment, 229 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:02,320 because really, that's what a digital signature is, right? 230 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:05,840 It's a watermark. And if every person had their 231 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:10,280 own cryptographic key, then you could assert that at least this 232 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,960 content, this message, this post is really coming from me. 233 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:17,120 And no one else could pretend to be me or impersonate me. 234 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:20,440 And that's really what's necessary in this world of Gen. 235 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:22,640 AI. How can we have authenticity? 236 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:26,440 How can we really know that you are you in this world where it's 237 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:28,720 increasingly a big question mark? 238 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:32,280 And I think the other thing with QR codes, I I would be remiss 239 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:36,080 not to point out because in fact the Fido community is what 240 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:39,120 brought badge to some of the understanding around 241 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:42,480 accessibility issues. So we care a lot about making 242 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:45,560 sure that the product, the technology is accessible to 243 00:12:45,560 --> 00:12:48,400 everyone. And Fido has a real emphasis on 244 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:50,760 that. And working with that team 245 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:54,280 helped us understand that, you know, QR codes are actually very 246 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:56,840 difficult for people that have visual impairment. 247 00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:00,200 I mean, it's just, it's just impossible even for us to line 248 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:04,840 up the the QR code, let alone if there's any challenge in doing 249 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:07,000 that. And so being able to offer 250 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:09,920 alternatives, not rely on these sort of clunky methods. 251 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:14,040 And I think overall there needs to be this, this call we were 252 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:16,960 just talking about this, this call to the community because. 253 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:21,240 We're in our 6th. Year of the Fido conference and 254 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:27,760 yet we just saw this breach of 16 billion passwords, right. 255 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:31,360 Why are we still living in this world where there's so much 256 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:36,480 reliance on passwords when there has been obviously so much 257 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:40,160 progress towards phishing resistant authentication that 258 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:44,080 moves away from passwords. And it's really what is what is 259 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:46,720 missing there? And is it this usability, this 260 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:49,080 accessibility? How do we make it easy? 261 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:51,160 You know, for for our grandparents. 262 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:55,600 To be able to comfortably and easily authenticate in a secure 263 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:57,720 way. So I don't think it's a 264 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:01,720 technology problem. Why does it take so long Budgets 265 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:04,280 Like that's the number one reason I see with, you know, 266 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:06,640 clients that I talk to in our day job and stuff like that, is 267 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:11,600 it takes time to get that out here as as much as the work that 268 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,080 fight alliance has done, which has been incredible, right, to 269 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:18,200 get large companies like Microsoft, Google, Apple just on 270 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:20,880 the same page, right. Talking is heroic in and of 271 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:23,640 itself. But this is still a what I see 272 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:25,760 is like a bleeding edge conference, right? 273 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:27,720 We're talking about the authentication that's going to 274 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:31,000 be in place in three to five years. 275 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:34,160 Two to three years ago it was, hey, we finally have a standard 276 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:36,000 around pass keys. Awesome. 277 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:38,400 And guess what, two to three years later, you know, now I 278 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:40,800 think Andrew Shakira mentioned like billions of passkeys are 279 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:43,600 out there. And so for me, I just look at it 280 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:47,800 as this is a normal adoption cycle for any, any number of 281 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:50,640 corporations out there. They can't just say, OK, passkey 282 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:52,640 sound great, sign me up and implement it tomorrow. 283 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,160 They've got to go through their governance processes, their 284 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:58,360 budgeting processes and cycles. And if you don't catch it at the 285 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:01,040 right spot, that means you got to wait another year to get part 286 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:02,600 of that right. Unless somehow, man, money 287 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:04,960 magically frees up. I'm sure economy plays a part of 288 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:07,120 that. But I, I don't think, I don't 289 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:09,880 think we're behind. I think we're right where we 290 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:14,880 should be given sort of that budget process that every 291 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:16,760 organization has to go through. Yeah. 292 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:20,280 And I agree about sort of the bleeding edge and it's, it's not 293 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:22,360 just here, it's at Identiverse, right. 294 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:29,120 We feel in these communities, at IIW in the room, the concepts 295 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:32,840 are so clear, OK, verifiable credentials. 296 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:34,920 Everybody's going to have a wallet. 297 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:37,960 Everybody's going to have this zero knowledge. 298 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:41,960 Way of proving who they are to all of these relying parties. 299 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:46,240 And you just have to Step 1 foot outside that community for 300 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:48,600 people to have no idea what you're talking about. 301 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,520 What is an issuer? What is a relying party? 302 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:55,680 What is a ZKPI mean? And the idea that we're going to 303 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:59,240 have the whole world adopt this when we have such foreign 304 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:01,920 terminology, I think, you know, it's it's. 305 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,200 A little bit eye opening when you're in the in the world, when 306 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:08,480 you're right among among the people that speak that language 307 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:12,240 and then when you step out to see how how different we are and 308 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:15,280 I think. That again, it comes back to, we 309 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:19,760 can talk in our language in the identity community, but once we 310 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:24,040 build something that an everyday person needs to use, it needs to 311 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:26,440 be something that doesn't require anybody to know 312 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:28,720 cryptography. It needs to be something where 313 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:31,440 people don't even know what a key is. 314 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:36,400 It needs to be that you don't have things like catastrophic 315 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:41,320 failure if you lose a device. I mean, we even see pretty 316 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:44,720 regularly this concept of an emergency kit, right? 317 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:49,120 You have to keep a 12 word phrase somewhere that you can't 318 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:52,080 ever lose. And these things are actually 319 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:57,320 pretty foreign to an average consumer that they would drive 320 00:16:57,320 --> 00:16:59,960 to the bank to. Put a paper in a safe deposit 321 00:16:59,960 --> 00:17:03,120 box just so that they can access their accounts. 322 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:07,480 And so really bringing the bar down to normal experiences is 323 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:08,960 critical. Absolutely go. 324 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:12,760 To the bank, that's crazy. But I also heard your points 325 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:16,200 that you're making about budgets, but the bad guys aren't 326 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:17,800 going to wait until you get the budget. 327 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:22,599 And that's just, I think one of the positives is you're at this 328 00:17:22,599 --> 00:17:28,240 conference, you're seeing a lot of the big tech representation, 329 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:30,080 you're seeing a lot of big tech representation. 330 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:32,960 You're seeing a lot of folks from mostly from large 331 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:37,400 organizations, tech first organizations that are looking 332 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:41,640 at either adopting pass keys or have adopted it, but not only 333 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:46,040 adopting pass keys, but it's this intersection between 334 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:51,120 identity verification and authentication that that's the 335 00:17:51,120 --> 00:17:54,120 real ticket, right? I'm, I'm sold on it. 336 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:57,720 I mean, that is where it becomes pretty hard to hack. 337 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:03,120 Having said that, you keep and maybe this just comes down to 338 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:08,680 the password is stupid, but you keep seeing these major breaches 339 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:12,120 happen because of social engineering and phishing. 340 00:18:12,120 --> 00:18:18,280 You're just like, how are we still falling prey to the same 341 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:22,560 level of attack and we were falling prey to 2025 years ago? 342 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:24,360 Well, I don't. I don't think it's a scenario 343 00:18:24,360 --> 00:18:27,720 where because it's the right thing to do isn't good enough. 344 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:32,560 There has to be something to drive behavior, regulation, a 345 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:34,360 breach, something like that I hate. 346 00:18:34,360 --> 00:18:38,280 Catastrophic event, exactly like like we asked Ian yesterday. 347 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:41,960 Do we need another? Do we need another Enron? 348 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:44,080 Yeah, to do something. Should it be like that? 349 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:47,960 No. But those are the things that 350 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:51,000 drive behavior. It's catastrophe. 351 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,080 Nobody just looks at it and says, well, yeah, that's great, 352 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:56,000 let's go ahead and do it. There's very few companies that 353 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:59,880 can afford to sit there and say, yeah, let's let's be on the 354 00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:01,520 bleeding edge or even the leading edge of this. 355 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:03,240 It's like they're they're having to make choices. 356 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:07,960 Hey, I I am a personal testament to the fact that a breach can be 357 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:10,760 motivation, right? The whole reason I got into the 358 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:14,560 identity space in the 1st place was because working in national 359 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,840 security, my fingerprints were stored in the Office of 360 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:20,200 Personnel Management, the OPM database. 361 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:24,640 And when OPM got breached, I was one of the six million people 362 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:26,880 who had my fingerprints compromised. 363 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:30,040 And so that was actually the whole reason I'm even part of 364 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:33,520 the identity community, the reason we founded Badge. 365 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:38,480 I'm just very much a believer in what you said, Jim, that a 366 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:40,560 breach can be a motivating factor. 367 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:44,600 And in fact, we see that a lot. We see people joining the 368 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:47,080 identity community after a breach. 369 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:51,400 We've seen members of ID Pro join because they had 370 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:54,640 experienced A breach and now there was a double down in 371 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:58,160 effort around doing this. And these breaches will continue 372 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:01,120 to happen as long as people continue to use passwords, 373 00:20:01,120 --> 00:20:03,480 stored credentials. These are just ripe. 374 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:07,640 Honeypots for breaches and I do actually think regulation has 375 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:11,320 moved forward quite a bit. I mean, even in the last six 376 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:14,720 years since we're reflecting on it, the, the biometric 377 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:19,960 information Privacy Act has gone from sort of being non existent 378 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:24,640 to having the first trial cases with BNSF railroad going to 379 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:29,880 trial talking about, OK, hey, these employees and workers were 380 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:34,080 storing their biometrics in a in a database and, and what are the 381 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:37,160 privacy implications of that? What were the, the rights of the 382 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:42,200 users and seeing these very large settlements come out of 383 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:45,640 that, that OK, this is actually something we really need to pay 384 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:48,200 attention to. We've personally seen that 385 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:52,240 really making a difference with people questioning that hey do. 386 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:54,560 We. Need to store biometrics? 387 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:58,480 Is that in compliance with the Biometric Information Privacy 388 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:01,360 Act? Texas now has a very similar 389 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:05,040 legislation. Kubi CUBI Eye and it follows 390 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:08,640 some very similar aspects of Bippa from Illinois. 391 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:12,920 And you can see for for instance, Facebook at the time 392 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:17,520 now Meta getting a massive lawsuit from Bippa and now we 393 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:20,840 see the Kuby legislation coming after the same thing. 394 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:25,360 And so this legislation and regulation it is it is causing 395 00:21:25,360 --> 00:21:28,040 change. It is causing people to question 396 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:31,040 are they following appropriate privacy practices? 397 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:33,440 And in that sense, I actually think that's a good thing. 398 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:35,360 It's. It's important, it's important 399 00:21:35,360 --> 00:21:38,040 that we think about that. It's important that global 400 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:42,280 companies think about, hey, if I build this solution, will it 401 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:45,760 only work in the US or can I also do it in Europe? 402 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:49,160 And I think it's actually something that helps everyone to 403 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:52,440 have. Those privacy legislations and 404 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:55,480 regulations, yeah. Regulate, regulation, audit, 405 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:59,000 those things are going to drive it forward, but it might be at 406 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:03,560 like a glacier space. I feel like the identity 407 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:06,920 practitioners, we need to go back into our organizations. 408 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:12,200 We need to beat the drum. Our organization, the way I look 409 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:15,360 at it is ID Pro. You're a board member of ID Pro 410 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:18,760 Am I speaking the right language? 411 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:23,000 Is that where we should be? And where is ID Pro at right 412 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:26,320 now? Yeah, One of the best resources 413 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:30,680 of ID Pro is this ability to bring practitioners together. 414 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:36,160 And in the Slack community, we actually have some real legends 415 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:39,880 in the identity space that are there that have been practicing 416 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:42,800 in this community at the forefront that have been some of 417 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:45,800 the founders of these conferences and events and 418 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:47,920 standards that we're using today. 419 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,400 And then we also have people that have been out in the field 420 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:53,960 implementing this and what's nice about the. 421 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,680 Community is the culture is very supportive. 422 00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:59,520 People can ask, you know, so-called dumb questions. 423 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:03,840 Hey, I tried to implement this, you know, OIDC the, the tokens 424 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:05,840 not working. Oh, hey, did you check the login 425 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:07,480 hint? And people really coming 426 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,920 together to help each other out. And there isn't really a 427 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,080 financial motivation. There's just helping people out. 428 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:17,920 We're all in this together. We all become safer if we work 429 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:21,280 on this together and helping people understand, hey, there's 430 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:23,960 this, this new technology, there's this new approach. 431 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:25,800 Have you heard of it? Oh, yeah, we're, we're 432 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:29,160 implementing that now and having people be able to discuss that. 433 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:33,120 Hey, we ran into this question or how did you share with your 434 00:23:33,120 --> 00:23:37,000 stakeholders the importance of this or even hiring that? 435 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:40,160 Hey, we, we are looking for someone in this space with this 436 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:42,760 particular skill set. And so it's been. 437 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:47,800 Really a focal point for identity practitioners to say, 438 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:49,320 hey, there's a community for you. 439 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:53,120 There's a place where you can join and talk to other people 440 00:23:53,120 --> 00:23:55,120 that are facing the same challenge as you are. 441 00:23:56,120 --> 00:24:00,240 So let me ask you some questions around ID Pro, because it's no 442 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:01,720 secret, right? We're big fans of it. 443 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:03,520 We're the official podcast, right for ID Pro. 444 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,360 Lots of people who are members of ID Pro had been on the show. 445 00:24:08,120 --> 00:24:10,960 If you're not a member, go out, get your membership because the 446 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:13,160 Slack channel alone I feel like is worth it, whatever it is, 447 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:17,480 $150.00 a year, whatever it is. So I like to bring up the Slack 448 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,040 channel a lot as sort of like one of the key benefits and it 449 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,840 is that community where you experience everything 450 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:25,120 essentially, right? There is technical 451 00:24:25,120 --> 00:24:27,960 conversations. I think there's a dogs or cats 452 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:29,560 of ID Pro channel as well, right? 453 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:32,480 So you can kind of, you know, be amongst your own people. 454 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:37,600 As a member of the board, how often are you looking at things 455 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,440 like the Slack channel? I'm saying, OK, yeah, this is 456 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:42,360 like one of our key things. Or are you hearing it? 457 00:24:42,360 --> 00:24:44,840 Or are there other part? And there's other things that ID 458 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:47,400 Pro does as well, right? We've got the blog, we've got 459 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:49,880 body of knowledge, right, the certification, things like that. 460 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,840 But like, how much does like the board look at things like the 461 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:54,800 Slack committee and say, oh, this is what people are talking 462 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,720 about And how does that influence the direction of the 463 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:02,640 organization? So we don't moderate the Slack 464 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:06,920 channel in in a sense of kind of directing anything, but in terms 465 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:09,640 of encouraging, we do that a lot. 466 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:14,080 So coming up to conferences and events, it is a place where 467 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:18,040 people, for instance, for this event said, hey, I want to dry 468 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:19,920 run my talk. Can anyone do that? 469 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,080 Same with identifiers. Similarly for submitting 470 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:25,560 proposals. Hey, I'm, I'm working on a topic 471 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:27,960 around this. Can someone help me crystallize 472 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:29,720 it? And you'd be shocked with how 473 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:33,120 many people respond Yeah, hey, I can, I can dry run that with 474 00:25:33,120 --> 00:25:34,920 you, you know, hey, let's meet up. 475 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,760 And so it's it's a focal point that really just helps support 476 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:44,400 people and advance them on their journey and getting into ID pro. 477 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:48,680 There's also an introductions channel where people when they 478 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:52,520 first joined say hey. I'm new or hey, I've, I've been 479 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,680 involved for a long time, but I just joined and it's great to 480 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,640 see the reception of, hey, if you're interested in this, you 481 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,200 should join that. There's a podcast channel where 482 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,280 of course, identity at the center. 483 00:26:03,360 --> 00:26:05,520 We discuss episodes coming up on that. 484 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:09,080 And it's a place where podcast leaders can get feedback too, 485 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,160 that, hey, I'm thinking about a topic around this or here's a 486 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:13,840 survey. What are you interested in? 487 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:17,560 Or of course, for identity squabble and other things. 488 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,920 Hey, give us some feedback. 1 surveyed 100 people. 489 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:25,640 Where do you get the 100 people ID pro exactly exactly and so? 490 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:31,320 I think that where we see the the thought leadership, the 491 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:34,240 emerging trends actually just comes from the membership. 492 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:39,200 So many members of ID Pro are actually speaking at this event 493 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:44,000 here at Authenticate that speak at EIC, at Identiverse, attend 494 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,880 the identity and Internet and identity workshop, IOW. 495 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,480 And, and it just turns out that people that are passionate about 496 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:56,680 identity are in ID Pro and we lead, you know, webinars, talks, 497 00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:00,640 we share what we're up to and people also use that community 498 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:02,680 to share resources. Hey, here are my slides from 499 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:05,360 this or here's a talk I just did on this. 500 00:27:05,360 --> 00:27:09,240 And people are very open about sharing that content with each 501 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,400 other, enabling each other. So it's a, it's actually, I 502 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,840 think a core backbone of what makes the community great. 503 00:27:16,120 --> 00:27:20,200 It's also allowed just a, a common communication point for 504 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,080 people to do other things. So when people want to host a, 505 00:27:23,360 --> 00:27:26,840 an identity beer or a get together anywhere in the world, 506 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,440 whether you're talking about Australia or San Francisco or 507 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:33,160 London, they use that as a place to say, hey, come on out, let's 508 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,440 let's meet up. And so we found that ID Pro is a 509 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,160 great way to bring people together to meet other people, 510 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,400 whether locally or around the world, that are interested in 511 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,560 similar topics. Yeah, if you're not a member of 512 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:50,480 ID Pro, do it. Where do you see ID Pro as an 513 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:52,640 organization going in the next few years? 514 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,360 So I want to kind of give, you know, the membership a sense of 515 00:27:56,360 --> 00:27:58,480 like what's where do where's this thing go? 516 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:01,840 Because we have to evolve right with the space. 517 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,680 Like where do you see this, this where we're going? 518 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:09,200 Let's put that here. Well, some of the core tenants 519 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,840 of ID Pro are going to remain the same, being very member 520 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:17,160 driven, having a kind of a grassroots, informal way where 521 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:20,840 people can network and talk about other topics with each 522 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,240 other, help each other out in a supportive way. 523 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,680 Some of the things we're evolving as an organization just 524 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,400 to become a more mature organization over time. 525 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:34,880 Well, one is, you know, we have our regular board elections. 526 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:38,360 We welcome some more board members to the board, which is 527 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:39,960 great. It's always great to get that 528 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,880 new energy on the board, you know, re discuss what are our 529 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,200 strategic priorities? What are we focused on? 530 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:51,400 We're very focused on delivering value both to our members. 531 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:53,800 So what? What do they see as valuable? 532 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,800 And we asked them that a lot. What is the most valuable thing 533 00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:00,800 we see the Slack community come up as #1 but we also listen for 534 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,400 what else is helpful? What could we do differently? 535 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:05,400 And then also to. Our corporate members, so we 536 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:10,040 have corporate members as well, which is a big boost to ID Pro 537 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:12,800 and finding out, you know, what's most valuable to them, 538 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,920 what topics do they want to see, what do they want to be involved 539 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:19,040 in and engaged in. And one of the things that we're 540 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:23,000 that I would like to announce on this show that we're doing at ID 541 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,360 Pro is we are announcing the creation of committees. 542 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:29,840 And this is a new thing. So used to be that you had to 543 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:33,920 be, you know, an elected board member to serve on the board to 544 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:36,720 sort of make any decisions about ID Pro. 545 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:41,320 We want to include more of the membership into the operations 546 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,920 of ID Pro. So the board has created some 547 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:49,600 committees that members who want to volunteer just like the board 548 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:53,000 members to participate and get engaged can get involved. 549 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,800 So we have, we're going to have a committee that's focused on 550 00:29:55,800 --> 00:30:00,160 the internal operations of ID Pro and governance, as well as 551 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:04,600 on the external side and how ID Pro engages outside of ID Pro 552 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,080 with other organizations with conferences, social media and 553 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:10,680 things like that. So I would like to specifically 554 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,000 make a call. If you're, if you're watching 555 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,720 this and you want to get engaged, there's an opportunity 556 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,560 for you to do that. So please raise your hand. 557 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:20,320 This is a great way to get involved. 558 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:22,240 What's the timing for that? When? 559 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:26,000 What are these committees going to start hitting the hitting the 560 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:27,200 road? Yeah. 561 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:31,600 Well, we're actually creating the kind of draft charter and 562 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,760 purpose right now, which we hope to be formalized by the 563 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:37,840 committees themselves. So you'll be seeing those coming 564 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:41,200 out just in a few months. So I'm real interested in the 565 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:42,960 topics that we've been discussing. 566 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,600 What's really hot here at the conference with identity 567 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:52,480 verification and obviously pass keys and authentication, most 568 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:56,920 tie in with Identity Pro. Like it feels like that's the 569 00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,360 community that's got to take this thing forward. 570 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,680 Is that the context that the way we should look at it? 571 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:05,960 Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I think that, you know, we 572 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:10,360 were discussing sort of the evolution of how different parts 573 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,960 of the identity life cycle are really critical and need to be 574 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,200 brought in together. You were just talking, Jim, 575 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,160 about sort of the identity verification and the 576 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,960 authentication side. And we've seen that a lot how 577 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:28,040 doing sort of that selfie driver's license document 578 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:31,640 authentication to initially check, hey, are you the person 579 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:35,360 that should create the account and how that's merging into, OK, 580 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:38,560 now have your ongoing authentication credential. 581 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:42,680 I think what we were just discussing is that also when you 582 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,280 fall off of that journey that you've lost your credential, 583 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:49,520 you've lost your password or device. 584 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:53,080 And now you're starting over and ways that you can actually 585 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:57,520 extend your identity to remain on that identity life cycle to 586 00:31:57,520 --> 00:31:59,840 persist through things like account recovery. 587 00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:04,120 Because frequently even if we have fishing resistant 588 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:09,400 authentication, we fall back to very fishable identity recovery, 589 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:13,960 account recovery methods that tend to go back to KBA knowledge 590 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:16,640 base authentication. You're back to a very fishable 591 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,800 thing, which is, you know, we talked about The MGM casino hack 592 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:24,240 in Las Vegas, right? That was taking advantage of the 593 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:27,920 account recovery flow. So even if you have super robust 594 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:31,600 authentication, you can have MFA set up, you can have all this 595 00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:35,320 great stuff, as long as you can call in as an attacker, pretend 596 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:38,400 to be the user and say, oh, I, I don't have my device anymore. 597 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:42,120 I forgot my password. Now you can, you know, get 598 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:45,480 credentials. And so the fact that that back 599 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:49,320 door is still open is a problem. And I think as an identity 600 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:53,240 community, we got to look at that whole identity life cycle 601 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:57,000 and make sure that we're not, you know, just giving up on 602 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:01,600 certain entry points for fraud. Because I think ultimately one 603 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:05,520 of the big things we're trying to thwart with this identity 604 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,600 world is, is the fraud side of things. 605 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:11,120 I. Want to bring up like a big 606 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:15,680 topic because I, I think everybody thinks about this in 607 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:18,320 some way. So I talked about like that face 608 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,360 mask and the thumbprints and gum. 609 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:24,880 It almost sounds comical, right? It's like, who would have ever 610 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:28,320 been concerned about that? I was like 2 years ago, you 611 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:31,400 know, we were talking about that like that was the deep fake of 612 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,000 the moment. Now deep fake is AI. 613 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:41,200 And it's like we think about how much geography we've covered in 614 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:43,480 just two years. What's it going to be like 2 615 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:45,960 years from now, three years from now? 616 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:51,000 I had a colleague the other day saying like, well, should people 617 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,760 move forward with like an IGA platform or should they just 618 00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:57,080 wait two years up? You know, chat GPG is going to 619 00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:59,880 do the whole thing. How do you look at that 620 00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:01,960 technology? Because I'll be more than happy 621 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:05,080 to share my answer, which is that you fall too far behind. 622 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:09,040 Good luck catching out. You can't just not invest and 623 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:12,440 then say, hey, we're just going to wait until the next whiz bag 624 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:14,480 thing comes and then we're all in. 625 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:16,239 It's like it's going to be too late. 626 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:18,600 And that's not also the way it works, right? 627 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:20,920 You have to keep. So that's my opinion, but I'm 628 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:23,639 wondering what yours is. Yeah, absolutely. 629 00:34:23,639 --> 00:34:27,880 And I think I think the point is that we're seeing AI really 630 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,320 transform the market from a lot of different dimensions. 631 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:34,760 And when we started off, we were really talking about the 632 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:38,040 onslaught of threats. And I think that's the reason 633 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,920 that you can't wait. You can't just sit around and 634 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:44,440 and wait for technology to evolve because you're even more 635 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:46,719 vulnerable today. And if you might have been a 636 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:51,120 little bit vulnerable to like a phishing attack before, with AI, 637 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:54,000 it's going to be every attack, it's going to be so easy to 638 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:56,320 tailor and target phishing attacks. 639 00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:01,600 And so the, the age of AI really is here from an attacker and, 640 00:35:02,240 --> 00:35:06,280 you know, adversary perspective. So the existing technologies 641 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:10,560 that are not phishing resistant are, are not able to, to keep 642 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:12,440 up. I think what you were seeing 643 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,880 what you're talking about with the, with the masks and things 644 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:19,080 that's in this category of presentation attacks. 645 00:35:19,240 --> 00:35:23,320 Well, here is a place where actually AI helps with AI. 646 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:27,440 And so you can actually see that machine learning is very 647 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:33,000 effective detecting is this a mask, a photograph, a screen 648 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,480 versus a real human person sitting in front of me. 649 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:41,920 And so we see AI being used on that presentation attack defense 650 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,640 side as well. And then finally, of course, on 651 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:47,880 the injection attack defense, making sure that you can't be 652 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:51,720 injecting an AI stream of some Gen. 653 00:35:51,720 --> 00:35:56,120 AI version of Jim as opposed to the real person sitting there. 654 00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,200 And all of these things have to come together in a holistic 655 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:03,920 solution because for for good or for bad, the world has really 656 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:07,640 embraced biometrics. Biometrics are are here to stay. 657 00:36:07,720 --> 00:36:11,560 We found that for users, they just find it intuitively easy. 658 00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:15,280 And also on the security practitioner side, knowing that 659 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:20,040 you are you, that you are the person that performed that 660 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:23,200 action, that you can't deny that it was you, that somebody can't 661 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:26,800 be pretending that it's you. That is really critical piece as 662 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:28,840 well. So bringing all of these things 663 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:30,520 together is going to be critical. 664 00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:32,240 And I agree with you completely that. 665 00:36:32,240 --> 00:36:35,000 Just assuming that you're going to wait and see how things 666 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,040 evolve won't. Keep you protected. 667 00:36:37,240 --> 00:36:40,840 Yeah, the term I keep hearing is AI arms race. 668 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:46,400 And I think that's kind of a real thing, bring you back to ID 669 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:50,200 Pro and like the speed at which this is going. 670 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:54,120 I think the answer you're going to say is that how does ID pro 671 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:57,360 keep up with this? Well, that's the members, right? 672 00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:01,080 We provide the forum as the members have to bring this to 673 00:37:02,240 --> 00:37:04,920 how, how do the members keep up with this? 674 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:07,720 This is moving so quickly. Yeah. 675 00:37:07,720 --> 00:37:11,600 And it's exactly that. And it's also through sharing 676 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,920 with each other. Look, I came from the world of 677 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:18,760 cybersecurity. Cybersecurity was very 678 00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:22,400 fragmented in the sense that, you know, large, large banks, 679 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:25,920 large institutions, they didn't share when there was a cyber 680 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,400 attack. And there was a huge effort by 681 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:33,280 CISA and by others to say we got to share because you're probably 682 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:35,920 actually facing the same attack that I'm facing. 683 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:39,200 But as long as we keep bit to ourselves, we don't know. 684 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,280 And facilitating that information sharing was was 685 00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:46,400 really critical. I worked in that intersection of 686 00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:51,440 of cybersecurity kind of right when that concept of information 687 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:54,720 sharing became to the forefront. And I really think that that's 688 00:37:54,720 --> 00:37:56,960 what you need in order to stay ahead. 689 00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:00,280 We have to be telling each other what we're seeing, what's going 690 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:04,200 on out there, one from the adversary and the tax service, 691 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:06,360 but also from the user perspective. 692 00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,720 You know, what is what is usable, what is seamless, what 693 00:38:09,720 --> 00:38:13,360 is frictionless for people versus what is too cumbersome, 694 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,760 what is too difficult or inaccessible to certain types of 695 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:18,640 users. You know how passionate I am 696 00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:22,000 about making sure that different categories of users don't get 697 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,440 left behind? Well, part of the way that comes 698 00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:28,120 to the forefront is through a community like ID Pro where we 699 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:32,080 can share and talk about women, talk about people that don't 700 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:35,600 have dedicated computers, talk about people that have to share 701 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,480 their workstations or for their devices. 702 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:42,200 You know, talk about all of the communities of users and what 703 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:46,680 their needs are and how we've made strides in addressing them. 704 00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:47,960 So we can share that with others. 705 00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:51,880 Because I do think we're also in a very fortunately, a positive 706 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:56,960 community that wants to provide identity for everyone, right? 707 00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:00,520 Identity is how we access the economy, it's how we access 708 00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:03,680 education, it's how we access our financial resources, our 709 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:06,200 healthcare. Identity is really critical in 710 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:08,560 making that in inclusive for everyone. 711 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:12,520 I, I have found to be something that the community has been 712 00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:15,400 really embracing. And so, yes, absolutely, that 713 00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:18,760 dialogue, that discussion, and that sharing is how we're all 714 00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:21,880 going to stay ahead. You talked about those internal 715 00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:24,120 committees. I think for an external 716 00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:29,480 committee like AI agents, I am for AI and AI for I am like. 717 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:33,320 Those are topics that I think will be great external 718 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:36,440 committees. Absolutely, yeah, we're, we're 719 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,360 tackling that right now with agentic AI. 720 00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:43,600 How do you make sure that your agent is able to check in with 721 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:45,200 you? How do you make sure that it's 722 00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:47,600 authorized to do what you want it to do? 723 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:51,040 How do you know whether it's acting sort of rogue, whether it 724 00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:55,400 hallucinated or whether whether in fact, you know, was, was that 725 00:39:55,400 --> 00:40:01,240 really Jeff's intention when when this AI agent was was kind 726 00:40:01,240 --> 00:40:03,520 of commissioned by him to go do something? 727 00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,680 And so all of these. Questions come back to identity 728 00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:09,840 authorization authentication, Absolutely. 729 00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:13,440 Identity's at the center. How do you stay sharp on stuff 730 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:15,640 like this? So, you know, like, this is a 731 00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:19,800 gym question I'll go out there with is there's so much to keep 732 00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:21,880 up with? Like what are your sources of 733 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:24,960 knowledge that you go to? Are there specific websites or 734 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:27,480 people that you follow? Like for people listening to 735 00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:30,080 this is like, OK, this is how Tina stays up to date on things. 736 00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:34,160 Well, I would be remiss if I didn't point to ID Pro. 737 00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:38,800 I think that in the ID Pro community, we bring up topics, 738 00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:42,040 the latest things that are out there, the latest advancements, 739 00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:44,720 the standards that are coming out and the latest breaches. 740 00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:48,920 How is this impacting people? We also have people speaking at 741 00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:51,560 conferences, which I think is a great place, as you mentioned, 742 00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:55,080 that can be sort of the bleeding edge of what's coming forward. 743 00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:58,160 And then of course, just talking to people in the community, 744 00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:03,200 being working with folks, we are, you know, constantly 745 00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:07,160 working with some of the largest and smallest companies in the 746 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:10,320 community and seeing what do they have on the horizon. 747 00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:13,640 What's next? I'm believe I am a strong 748 00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:15,840 believer in learning and education. 749 00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:20,400 As you know, I am a lecturer at MIT and I continue to teach and 750 00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:23,880 I continue to learn. So being, being aware that 751 00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:27,040 there's always something to learn is absolutely critical. 752 00:41:27,240 --> 00:41:31,000 You know, if you have not tried some of these AI tools that are 753 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:33,880 out there, played with them yourself, you have to do that. 754 00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:35,960 You have to get your hands dirty. 755 00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:39,600 Even if you're not a, you know, a programmer or a developer, 756 00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:43,120 start using these tools, seeing the the advantages and seeing 757 00:41:43,240 --> 00:41:46,840 the disadvantages, experiencing the risks yourself, seeing that, 758 00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:50,720 oh, you know, if I enter this information is that now being 759 00:41:50,720 --> 00:41:54,080 trained in a global way, you know, being careful of your 760 00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:57,840 company proprietary information and where it's going, but still 761 00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:00,000 embracing and experiencing these new tools. 762 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:03,200 Because I guarantee you the tools that we have today, even 763 00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:06,120 in one year, are completely changing and will be a whole new 764 00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:07,960 set. This is the worst it will ever 765 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:10,720 be, I should say the least capable it will ever be. 766 00:42:10,720 --> 00:42:13,280 It just keeps getting, you know, stronger from a capability 767 00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:14,880 standpoint. Could be more evil. 768 00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:16,280 Right. Well, yeah, that's what I say. 769 00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:17,560 I changed my word. Not worst. 770 00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:21,440 It's the it's the least capable. It will be right now like it 771 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,200 just continues to get more capable over time. 772 00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:27,840 And I we usually closeout our episodes on a lighter note, but 773 00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:32,720 I want to ask you, how do you see AI affecting your karaoke 774 00:42:32,720 --> 00:42:35,680 career? Because you're, you've been on 775 00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:37,240 the highlight reel here at Authenticate. 776 00:42:37,240 --> 00:42:41,160 I think last year for that at ideniverse earlier this year for 777 00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:43,320 our Dennis Global game, you did an 8 mile. 778 00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:46,680 I think it was eight mile right from Eminem, you know, on stage 779 00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:47,880 with us as part of the end of it. 780 00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:49,480 You're like, I didn't get to do it. 781 00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:50,560 I'm like, OK, well, go ahead and do it. 782 00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:55,000 No, you wanted that bad. So how do you say AI impacting 783 00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:57,920 sort of that sphere of your life, you know, from like a 784 00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:00,440 music standpoint? Oh, that's great. 785 00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:04,720 I think, I think that my my band teacher would get a kick out of 786 00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:09,640 that knowing that I had, in his eyes, a very poor musical 787 00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:15,040 progress or, or potential. But yes, I had a blast at the 788 00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:17,280 identity squabble. Thank you for running that. 789 00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:20,440 You have a certain talent with these, with these fun shows and 790 00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:23,080 bringing out the best in people. And yeah, it was great. 791 00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:27,720 I am I am a fan of Eminem and so I had to work in an MFA rap. 792 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:31,320 That was pretty fun, I think getting getting people engaged 793 00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:34,760 in the importance of authentication in a secure way, 794 00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:37,400 but also, you know, bringing in the in the fun side. 795 00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:42,880 So I actually did try to use ChatGPT to see if it could help 796 00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:46,120 me with some of the the lyrics, but it didn't it didn't really 797 00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:48,360 grasp what I was trying to communicate. 798 00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:51,560 So I ended up going back to the pen and paper for that one. 799 00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:55,760 So I think the the real question is, can it can it improve? 800 00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:59,160 Can it help me get some better lyrics for next time? 801 00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:00,880 I mean, that was like 3 or 4 months ago. 802 00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:05,280 So it's, you know, since then we've had Chachi PT-5, Gemini 803 00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:08,240 2.5, Claude just came off a new version and just keeps getting 804 00:44:08,240 --> 00:44:09,600 crazier and crazier. Yeah. 805 00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:12,560 And as soon as we get model context protocol, we won't be so 806 00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:15,600 siloed. So have you played around with 807 00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:19,680 any of the music AIS like Suno or I think other ones like Udio? 808 00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:24,800 Anything. I have some MIT friends of mine 809 00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:28,720 that are actually musicians that have been using the AI to help 810 00:44:28,720 --> 00:44:32,880 inspire, help give them feedback and even use that when you sort 811 00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:36,200 of play an an instrument in it coming back with giving you 812 00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:40,000 personalized feedback. At this point it is wrong too 813 00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:43,200 many times. So you have to have at least 814 00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:46,920 some knowledge otherwise you won't know that it's giving you 815 00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:49,240 kind of blatantly incorrect feedback. 816 00:44:49,240 --> 00:44:52,400 So think there's a a little bit of of a journey, but as we just 817 00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:55,400 discussed, hate that that evolution could happen quickly 818 00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:58,760 and we might see the usefulness of these tools turning around 819 00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:01,760 pretty fast. So what is it that drives you to 820 00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:05,000 get up in front of, you know, the hundreds of people of here 821 00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:09,600 at Authenticate or the thousands at Identoverse to do karaoke? 822 00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:11,040 Because that sounds frightening to me. 823 00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:13,280 And I say this knowing it sounds on the Internet, right? 824 00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:14,280 Right. And billions on the Internet. 825 00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:17,160 I say that as a podcaster who, you know, we've got a million 826 00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:19,760 downloads at this point. There's no way you would catch 827 00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:21,520 me singing in front of me. No, first of all, nobody wants 828 00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:23,920 that. But I just, I don't have that 829 00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:26,720 guts. So take me into your mindset. 830 00:45:26,720 --> 00:45:28,840 It's just like, and you're you're, you're a very good 831 00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:30,240 singer. So that probably helps as well. 832 00:45:30,240 --> 00:45:33,520 But like, you look like you're having such a good time with it. 833 00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:39,440 How do you let go like that? I didn't always do public 834 00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:46,080 speaking, but one time when I was undergraduate at MIT and I'm 835 00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:49,760 in aerospace engineering, I was asked to speak at an Amelia 836 00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:52,040 Earhart event. And this was one of the first 837 00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:55,480 times I was on stage. But it was for a bunch of middle 838 00:45:55,480 --> 00:46:00,080 school girls and it was to inspire kids and aviation and 839 00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:05,560 just talking to these kids afterwards, they, they, it, it 840 00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:08,600 worked. They wanted to become pilots. 841 00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:12,360 They wanted to become skydivers, aerospace engineers. 842 00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:17,320 And seeing that something that I said could make a difference 843 00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:22,320 really motivated me to kind of get over it and be excited 844 00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:25,880 because being excited about what I was passionate about made an 845 00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:28,760 impact on others. And that's how I got into 846 00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:32,400 teaching. I'm in my 10th year of teaching 847 00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:36,200 the MIT class 16687 on aerodynamics. 848 00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:39,320 And yeah, as you mentioned, we now have three and a half 849 00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:42,680 million views on YouTube of that course. 850 00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:46,000 And I don't think I ever even imagined that I was just 851 00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:49,920 speaking to to my class of students in the classroom and 852 00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:53,280 not really thinking about the the reach that it would have. 853 00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:57,880 And it's something that when I hear students come tell me, hey, 854 00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:01,040 I've become a pilot, I flew a plane, I got my commercial 855 00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:03,760 license. And then sharing that feedback 856 00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:07,040 with me, it really makes me happy that it, that it made a 857 00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:10,200 difference. So even this afternoon when I'm 858 00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:14,400 going to be going on stage and, and talking about pass keys in 859 00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:18,080 the financial industry, how to overcome account recovery, I'm 860 00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:21,840 thinking about how maybe this could make an impact to others. 861 00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:25,200 And I try to put the the whatever the nervousness is and 862 00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:28,840 the stage lights that you see when you get up on stage, try 863 00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:31,840 and put that to the back of my head and focus on why I'm 864 00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:34,080 excited to share what I'm there to share. 865 00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:37,040 When you're up on stage, you can't see anything, especially 866 00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:39,920 the mainstage here, like the lights are very bright, you can 867 00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:41,720 really only see the first row and that's it. 868 00:47:41,720 --> 00:47:44,400 So I think that helps a little bit, but I still find it nerve 869 00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:46,200 racking getting up there in front of anybody. 870 00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:49,680 You make it look so easy. Lighter notes for you Sweating 871 00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:55,480 is what is the first public speaking experience that you can 872 00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:59,920 remember. I think this is the one that you 873 00:47:59,920 --> 00:48:03,600 ditched me for. So this would have been I think 874 00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:05,160 it was authenticate. Authenticated. 875 00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:08,040 Seat It was in Seattle and. You ditched me there. 876 00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:10,360 You made us out. So I was sick. 877 00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:12,320 It was, like in the middle of COVID. 878 00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:12,840 Yeah. Yeah. 879 00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:16,280 Could you imagine getting on a plane just, like, packing up a 880 00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:17,040 line? Yeah. 881 00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:19,080 That would not be in public. Everyone was like is what's 882 00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:22,160 going on there? But that I think, I think that 883 00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:26,400 was probably the first one that I can recall at like that level, 884 00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:29,440 like where there was, you know, more than maybe 10 people in the 885 00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:31,920 room, that kind of thing. But yeah, I remember that I was 886 00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:35,920 getting ready to fly from Chicago to Seattle and you 887 00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:38,640 called me, said you're sick. And I didn't even want to go to 888 00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:40,720 this lake. I was going just to support you. 889 00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:42,200 You're like, hey, I'm going to go speak. 890 00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:43,640 I'm like, all right, I'll go and I'll help you with like the 891 00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:45,400 presentation, right. But I don't want to like get up 892 00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:48,960 there and then you call me. Is that all right? 893 00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:51,560 And I guess I'm getting on a plane and did the presentation 894 00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:54,440 and that was it. I remember it being very out of 895 00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:57,640 place for the other content because this would have been. 896 00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:01,400 It was like how to run an IM program, yeah. 897 00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:03,160 And it was like in the middle of an authenticate conference, 898 00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:05,000 like, OK, like one of these things is not like the other. 899 00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:07,120 And it was definitely the the oddball out. 900 00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:10,400 But yeah, that was it. But that's that's my first one. 901 00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:12,600 What about you? So my first one was I was an 902 00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:16,760 undergrad and I was helping with the new art. 903 00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:20,400 Let's see, like the perspective student orientation. 904 00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:23,440 So people show for a Saturday. They get to walk around the 905 00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:26,360 campus with people like me. And I was sitting up at the 906 00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:30,280 front and the person who's doing the speaking was a guy named Doc 907 00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:33,920 Rock. He was one of the, yeah, that 908 00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:36,800 was his name because he ran the radio station. 909 00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:38,400 I forgot what his real last name was. 910 00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:43,640 But he started taking questions from the parents that were 911 00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:46,200 there, parents and potential students. 912 00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:49,080 And they're asking things like, what are the dorms like? 913 00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:52,560 What is the the food in the in the cafeteria like? 914 00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:56,640 And then he's like, girl asked me like, how is the food in the 915 00:49:56,640 --> 00:49:58,240 cafeteria? And so I answered. 916 00:49:58,240 --> 00:50:01,960 And then it was like, do you ever see that new commercial? 917 00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:03,640 It's like the Capital One commercial. 918 00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:06,760 There's the Capital One bank guy, and there's Derek Jeter, 919 00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:09,800 and there's an astronaut. And people all want to ask 920 00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:12,960 questions of the bank guy. Well, I was the bank guy. 921 00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:17,120 So Doc Rock just gave me the microphone and walked away. 922 00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:20,040 And then I was talking to like hundreds of people. 923 00:50:20,720 --> 00:50:22,480 That's pretty cool. It was good because I don't have 924 00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:24,760 time to be nervous. It's just it's happened. 925 00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:27,440 Yeah, I just got thrown into it. Thrown into it. 926 00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:29,880 That's kind of how I felt too, when when you ditched me, I'll 927 00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:32,080 say it again was I didn't have time to think about it. 928 00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:33,200 So I guess I'm getting. On a plane. 929 00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:35,000 Get my COVID on, you know. Yeah, that's true. 930 00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:37,320 But I think you did put a question into the chat. 931 00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:40,200 It was like, what is IA or something like that, which is an 932 00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:42,240 internal joke for like Jim and I've been working there for like 933 00:50:42,240 --> 00:50:44,840 a decade now and whenever we have like an internal meeting, 934 00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:47,000 it's like, you know, we're all identity people consulting, 935 00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:48,920 etcetera. And I'll, I'll generally will 936 00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:50,680 throw in a question like I keep hearing about this thing. 937 00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:51,840 I am. What is that? 938 00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:54,760 What does society? Just you're just being an idiot. 939 00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:56,840 So sorry. I think that's a good spot to 940 00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:59,480 end is me being an idiot. So we'll go ahead and leave it 941 00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:01,880 there for this week. Thank you so much for being part 942 00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:03,560 of this, Tina. Great to be here again. 943 00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:06,240 Looking forward to that to hearing you maybe later tonight 944 00:51:06,240 --> 00:51:09,760 at the at the at the party ID pro.org. 945 00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:13,400 So people check that out. Hands down the best community I 946 00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:15,360 will say, and I will die on that hill. 947 00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:19,160 So feel free to come at me, but ID pro.org, be a member, join 948 00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:21,520 the slack, you know, just be part of the community. 949 00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:23,720 And with that, we'll go and leave it for this week. 950 00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:28,520 IDC, podcast.com, idcpodcast.tv for the YouTube channel, like 951 00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:31,400 subscribe and do all that fun stuff, you know, share, share 952 00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:34,920 the gospel of I am with others. So thanks everyone for watching 953 00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:37,120 and or listening and we'll talk with y'all in the next one. 954 00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:42,360 You've been listening to Identity at the Center. 955 00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:46,840 We hope you've enjoyed the show. Make sure to like, rate and 956 00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:50,440 review, and we'll be back soon. But in the meantime, hit the 957 00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:53,880 website at identity@thecenter.com. 958 00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:58,560 See you next time on Identity at the Center.