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This is identity at the center. 
If it has anything to do with 

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IAM, this is the go to podcast 
now your hosts Jim McDonald and 

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Jeff Stedman. 
Welcome to the Identity the 

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Center podcast. 
I'm Jeff and that's Jim. 

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Hey, Jim. 
Hey, Jeff. 

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How are you? 
Oh. 

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Not so bad yourself. 
Not so bad myself looking 

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forward to We've been talking a 
lot about our conference agendas

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for the summer, right 
Identiverse is a big one. 

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And then Authenticate, which I 
guess is the fall, but we're 

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going to San Diego, so it's like
it's spring, like year round 

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there. 
It's like perfect weather. 

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Actually where I am right now is
like perfect weather in Augusta.

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It's going to be Masters week 
next week when we're recording 

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this, and I'm stoked about that,
but also stoked about that that 

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conference, it's just a a 
fantastic one. 

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Every year we're going to start 
having discount codes available.

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Soon we'll start announcing that
with our our normal line. 

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Yeah, I have a placeholder on 
the website right now. 

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So if you go to idacpodcast.com,
I added all our codes basically 

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right on the homepage. 
Just Scroll down so you'll see 

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codes for Identiverse European 
Identity and Cloud Conference 

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Identity week and a coming soon 
authenticate. 

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And I do love the San Diego area
we'll be in Carlsbad. 

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Don't have a lot of details 
right now other than you know 

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we're planning to be there. 
I booked my flight today so 

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hopefully I'll I'll be able to 
use that ticket but San Diego 

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weather has gotta be the best on
the planet. 

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I mean just nothing that 
matches. 

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This weather and I don't know, 
we're not gonna like, tease what

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we're actually doing. 
But I will say like what we 

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talked about doing today would 
be like crazy fun. 

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So I think that's one thing. 
You know, we try to be 

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educational with the podcast, 
but we want to have some fun 

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too. 
Yeah, a little about 

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edutainment, I think. 
Yeah, if it if we can pull off 

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what we're trying to pull off, I
think it'd be an amazingly fun 

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and different thing than we 
normally would do. 

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I will give a hint that we've 
done this in the past, very long

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time ago, but we are looking to 
do it better now that we have, 

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you know, 270 some episodes 
under our belt and have at least

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a vague inkling of what to do. 
But that is the Authenticate 

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conference. 
That's October. 

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Before that we've got the 
Identivers conference that's 

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coming up. 
You and I are both gonna be 

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there. 
That's May 28th through the 

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31st. 
It's at the Aria resort in Las 

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Vegas. 
We have a discount code like I 

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said on our main page, but if 
you're listening it's 25% off, 

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IDV 2, four dash, IDAC 2/5. 
I know it's really easy to 

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remember, so that's why it's on.
Trolls off the. 

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Tongue, right. 
It's gonna be on the main page. 

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You know, it'll be easier there.
goaheaduniverse.com. 

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Use that code. 
That's how you can show support 

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for the show. 
I think early Bird might still 

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be there or not, but it does 
stack with whatever's available 

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right now. 
Don't be that guy or gal who 

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shows up and it's like, oh, I 
thought I registered, I didn't. 

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And then you end up paying like 
a ridiculous amount of money. 

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Or, you know, you're like on the
outside looking in through the 

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glass. 
Like, I wish I could be in there

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with all those cool identity 
people. 

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The funny thing with conferences
though, I mean especially like 

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identiversa, obviously use the 
discount code, save the money, 

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but the biggest expenditure for 
a conference in Vegas is not 

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going to be the conference fee, 
it's the flight, it's the hotel,

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it's all the the meals. 
Now I think if you're going as a

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practitioner and you control any
kind of destiny within your 

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company in terms of what IAM 
technology, you don't need to be

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buying your dinner straight. 
Somebody will take care of that 

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for you. 
If you're a real live person, 

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come find Jim or I. 
We'll buy new dinner. 

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Make that statement. 
Yeah, exactly. 

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Let's see. 
A lot of people are hopping on a

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plane. 
After that's over, they're going

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straight into Europe, into 
Berlin. 

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Specifically for the European 
Identity and Cloud conference. 

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That's June 4th or the 7th. 
So the Cooper, your coal folks 

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have given us a discount for 
that as well for our loyal 

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listeners around the world, EIC 
24, IDAC Two, 525% off of that 

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registration as well. 
Again, I'll have it on our 

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homepage in our show notes and 
you should have plenty of places

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to find it. 
But another way you can support 

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the show. 
And if you're heading out there,

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you know, probably want to 
register soon because you'll 

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want to make sure you take 
advantage of those codes. 

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And then we've got Identity 
Week. 

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Jim, tell us about Identity 
Week. 

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Well, Identity Week America has 
been one that you've attended in

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the past. 
I was quite jealous. 

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It was actually much better, I 
think from the description that 

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you gave me than I realized it 
was going to be. 

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But I think it you had a 
fantastic time there, right? 

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And I mean, obviously you said 
this year if you're coming, so 

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we're both going to be there. 
Identity Week America is in 

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Washington DC, September 11th 
and 12th, but they also have two

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other conferences, Identity Week
Europe, that's in Amsterdam, 

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June 11th and 12th, and Identity
Week Asia and Singapore, October

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22nd and 23rd. 
And this one we got a 30% 

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discount code we use for any of 
the above. 

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And that code is IDAC 30. 
That one actually does roll off 

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the tongue. 
Yeah. 

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So if you forget it, it's going 
to be in the show notes of 

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course. 
And yeah, hopefully for those 

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folks who can make it in to the 
Identity Week America 

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conference, make sure to stop 
by, shake our hands, fist bump, 

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whatever you're comfortable 
with. 

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And one of the biggest thrills 
for me in doing this podcast is 

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meeting people at the 
conferences and you know, 

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hearing from them that they 
enjoy the show, things like 

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that. 
So whether it's in person 

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letting us know that you enjoy 
the show or you reach out via 

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social media, either way we 
really appreciate when we hear 

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that. 
And of course you can five star 

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reviews and a full on comment 
that would even be even better. 

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Not that I'm asking for that. 
Well, you should be asking for 

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that, like subscribe all the all
the YouTuber stuff, right. 

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We're trying to grow the YouTube
channel, so trying to put more 

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content up there as well. 
But yeah, that's all stuff 

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that's good, even if you're 
just, you know, a subtle nod 

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from across the room like, hey, 
I know who you are. 

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Thanks. 
Thanks for what you're doing. 

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Like that. 
Even that'll work. 

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I'll get a kick out of that. 
Yeah, exactly. 

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All right, so we've got the 
conference stuff out of the way.

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We're going to have a 
wide-ranging conversation about 

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just a ton of things from any 
perspective. 

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We're very fortunate to be 
joined by John Podboy. 

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He's a senior vice president in 
cybersecurity for a major bank. 

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We won't mention who. 
I'm sure his opinions are his 

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own, all that legal mumbo jumbo 
stuff, but welcome to the show, 

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John. 
Yeah, thanks for having me. 

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I'm really excited to be here. 
Well, thanks for taking the 

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time. 
I know that right now you're 

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under a weather watch of some 
sort. 

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There was like, tornadoes, 
hurricanes. 

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And we kind of said, well, OK, 
we do want to go forward or not.

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I'm like, yeah, let's do it. 
It'll be the most if if 

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something happens, it'll be the 
most memorable episode we've 

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ever done. 
Yeah, maybe the last will and 

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testament of Jon Podboy. 
It'd be kind of momentous. 

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Well, don't hold us accountable 
for that. 

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We want you to be safe, but 
sounds like things are blown 

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over. 
We're good to have a 

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conversation here. 
And I think the first time that 

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we like to have people on, and 
you're probably familiar with 

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this, is when we have someone on
tell us about your identity, 

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origin story. 
How did you get into this space?

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Is identity something that you 
chose or did it choose you? 

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Oh, gosh, great question. 
You know, I think you talk to 

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people, you know, at a cocktail 
party and people ask you, you 

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know, what do you do? 
And well, how'd you get into 

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that? 
You know, most people will 

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assume you, you had a 
traditional background, right? 

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You studied, you know, computer 
science or you did something and

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then you, you know, went into 
that field. 

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But you know, like most people 
in this space, they kind of 

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found me and, you know, to maybe
the surprise to some people, you

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know, very diverse background, 
you know, much like identity, 

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right? 
Physical people have, you know, 

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various backgrounds and 
educations. 

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And you know, interestingly 
enough, I actually studied 

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philosophy, right, and somehow 
ended up in the identity field. 

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They kind of seemed destined to 
happen, right, the questions of 

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who you are and what you should 
do. 

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But, you know, broad level arts 
background. 

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But I've always been into 
cybersecurity and IT and I have 

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to chuckle, you know young John 
Podvoy back in you know the 

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early 90s figuring out how to 
hook up a dial up modem and 

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getting into trouble on the 
Internet. 

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You know, sticking stuff into 
the CD drive. 

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You know exploring, you know 
what is this thing or the floppy

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Dr. I guess back then. 
So you know, you know Fast 

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forward graduate college. 
You know during the recession. 

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Yeah really interesting time to 
get into feel. 

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But moved back to Northern 
Virginia where I grew up and got

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into the government world. 
You know got really fortunate to

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to get a job as a contractor for
the Drug Enforcement 

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Administration as a systems 
engineer. 

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So we were the team that you 
know figured out how to build 

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anything that you know the 
agency needed. 

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And you know really cool 
environment is you have to work 

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on a little bit of everything IT
and cybersecurity and you know 

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one of those things was identity
and kind of bit me and from 

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there you know haven't really 
left since. 

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So we were talking about before 
hit record, what we're gonna 

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call this show. 
And I think I just came up with 

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a name, The thinking man's I Am 
with Jon Podboy. 

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So here's my question. 
As a philosopher, and this is a 

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question I always ask what is I 
am? 

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Oh man, I I feel like we need a 
drink for that conversation. 

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You know, I tend not to over 
overthink it, right. 

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You know at the end of the day 
as a security leader, you know 

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it's our job to highlight things
we need to do to protect and 

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enable the business, right. 
And you think of identity, you 

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know traditionally that's been 
focused on people. 

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Yeah. 
And you know that's obviously 

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evolved over the years and 
continues to grow into you know,

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non human identity. 
You know, ultimately it's the 

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things that we need to enable 
with controls, you know, whether

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that's authentication, 
authorization, whether that be 

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EPI controls, you know, in this 
digital economy. 

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And you know that kind of is 
evolved over the years from the 

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castle and mode analogy to you 
know, just you know, build out 

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workstation or server controls 
or network controls to you know 

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really where we're at now where 
identity is evolving and taking 

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on a greater role in the cyber 
world to protect any 

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organizations in that kind of 
that corporate security mindset.

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But then also taking on a 
completely different role for 

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kind of end consumers, right? 
Yeah, what can we do to drive 

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consumer trust and enable that? 
And so it's a pretty exciting 

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field at the end. 
You know, one of the reasons 

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I've stayed in it for so long, 
even though I've done a variety 

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of other things, is the 
opportunity to influence and 

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impact organizations. 
Is is so unique. 

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Yeah, John, something that you 
mentioned there triggered me to 

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think about Adm that I received 
from a person named Nathaniel. 

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I'm not going to say his last 
name because they didn't get his

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permission to kind of read this 
on the air, but he did say thank

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you. 
I started listening to your 

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podcast. 
I'm looking to land a role as an

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IAM analyst and your podcast 
mentions how rare it is for 

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people to go straight into IAM. 
I'm looking to do that. 

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So what I replied was I say 
don't let anyone stop you from 

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pursuing your dream. 
In the podcast we speak from our

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experience and usually talk 
about what we see the most, but 

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there are no set in stone rules 
for getting into this, this fun 

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industry. 
Best of luck and thanks for 

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listening. 
And I I'd say that, you know, 

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when we have folks like yourself
who are in the same ballpark 

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range of ages, Jeff and I. 
In other words, you were around 

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when Pearl Jam 10 came out and 
you listened to it and it was 

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like new music and you still 
probably listen to. 

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Rocks. 
Let's just be clear here. 

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It still rocks. 
That's awesome. 

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It still rock. 
Absolutely. 

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But what I would say is like 
there was no IM industry really 

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at that point or it was so it 
was so niche that no one was 

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really starting their career in 
that and probably spent their 

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whole career in there. 
So, but now I think if you're 

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coming out with a cybersecurity 
degree, it's a very viable 

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option, maybe not even a 
cybersecurity degree, but I 

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think, you know, it's that 
diverse background is what you 

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said, like you're kind of a 
liberal arts guy. 

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My original degree was in 
political science, so who would 

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have known? 
But I it's, it's funny, you 

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know, and Jeff will probably say
the same thing, which is that 

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politics is such a part of being
successful in this world of 

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identity. 
You have to have a little bit of

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tech. 
You have to have a little bit of

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business. 
But man, if you can't understand

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politics and, you know, make 
friends or what do you say, 

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00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:50,080
Jeff, kiss babies and shake 
hands, something like that. 

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00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:51,880
You can't do those things like 
you don't want to do the. 

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00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:53,360
Opposite you don't shake babies 
and kiss hands. 

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00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:57,800
There you go. 
That's that would be a very bad 

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idea. 
But you know, John, we, so we 

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have this podcast called 
Identity at the Center. 

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And you know, you and I, we've 
only met a couple of months ago 

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now and I never asked you this 
question, but why do you like 

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that name identity at the 
center? 

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00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:17,360
What does that mean to you? 
You know, I I think it means a 

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00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:21,400
lot of things right in, you 
know, identity really evolving 

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to such a forefront of digital 
enablement, whether that's 

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security, whether it's driving 
revenue, you know, it can meet a

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variety of things. 
You know, maybe the simple 

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answer, you know, we have to put
people first, right? 

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You know, people are 
complicated. 

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We have diverse backgrounds, 
right, Physical conditions, 

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00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:43,160
right. 
You know, in society we have or 

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hopefully have, you know, the 
ability to accommodate people 

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and the diversity of people, 
right. 

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00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:50,960
We're not analog. 
You know, in the digital world 

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we tend to think of things as 
very analogue, but they're, you 

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00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:56,200
know, we probably shouldn't be, 
right? 

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00:13:56,200 --> 00:14:00,920
We have to have really, you 
know, adaptive security controls

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and experiences. 
So you think about identity at 

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the center, it's, you know, 
keeping people's, you know, in 

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mind being, you know, we're here
to protect them, you're here to 

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00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:12,200
enable them. 
And we're also here to enable 

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00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:16,720
things workstation servers write
data, but thinking differently 

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00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:19,640
and you know if you kind of look
at the different methodologies 

283
00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:24,240
out there, I kind of equated to 
design thinking if people have 

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00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:25,960
heard of that. 
If you haven't, go Google it 

285
00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:28,440
right. 
But design thinking and I, you 

286
00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:30,800
know the skills that make you 
successful in identity are 

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00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:33,960
really similar, right? 
You have to understand people, 

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00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:38,240
things, devices, network 
connections, you know how things

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00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:40,720
are architected and how they fit
together. 

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00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:43,760
So you know how to influence and
you talked about, you know, 

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00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:46,960
whether it be political or maybe
to use a different word, you 

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00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:50,320
know, using influence, right. 
You know, no one necessarily 

293
00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:53,280
wants to invest in identity 
because it's not, you know, the 

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00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:57,360
most easy thing to understand or
say like hey this this matters. 

295
00:14:57,800 --> 00:14:59,840
It's one of the things that you 
know, I think has been really 

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00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:03,280
important is, you know, to be 
successful in identity, yes, you

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00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:05,800
have to have deep technical 
knowledge of your hands on 

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00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:07,800
keyboard. 
You have to be technically aware

299
00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:11,160
of leadership roles, but I think
even more importantly is you 

300
00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:14,160
have to be willing to drive 
transformation. 

301
00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:17,680
And that's beyond anything that 
is within your direct control, 

302
00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:19,600
no matter what organization you 
work for, right? 

303
00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:23,120
Because ultimately we're here to
orchestrate from the phone you 

304
00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:26,360
have in your hand to the 
workstation to the server, to 

305
00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:29,640
the application, to 
architectural standards, to user

306
00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:32,960
behavior, to politics or things,
right? 

307
00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:35,600
That's a lot, right? 
And you know, obviously other 

308
00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:39,720
types of disciplines have a lot 
to influence, you know, but you 

309
00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:41,960
know in this space it's very 
broad and very deep. 

310
00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:45,440
So kind of being committed to, 
you know, diving in, learning 

311
00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,000
that technology I think is 
really important, but you know, 

312
00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,880
building those soft skills to 
drive organizational behavior. 

313
00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:54,120
I love that answer. 
I think you and I have a very 

314
00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:58,040
similar mindset of treating 
identity as a product for 

315
00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:00,640
whatever organization you happen
to be serving, right? 

316
00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:03,760
Whether it's enterprise identity
or customer identity, or 

317
00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:05,880
somewhere in the middle, right? 
Whatever that looks like. 

318
00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:08,920
So this idea of treating 
identity as a product, are you 

319
00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:11,760
putting out a good product for 
your users? 

320
00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:14,080
Yes or no, right. 
Would you use it? 

321
00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:16,000
Are other people looking to find
ways around it? 

322
00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:19,360
Because they feel like if you 
are able to take that design 

323
00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:22,520
thinking and say yeah let's 
design this with humans mind 

324
00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:23,640
because humans are going to use 
it. 

325
00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:26,720
I think you're going to be a lot
more successful in you know not 

326
00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:29,680
only the adoption but just the 
efficacy of the different 

327
00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,480
solutions you put in whether 
it's technical solution could be

328
00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:34,240
a policy procedure, whatever it 
may be. 

329
00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:37,560
But I love that idea of 
designing identity around 

330
00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:39,400
humans. 
So you're definitely showing off

331
00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:42,480
your your philosophical side 
around this because I'm with you

332
00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:45,000
on it. 
I want to ask you about identity

333
00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:46,840
data because I think that's 
something that sometimes that 

334
00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:51,760
gets lost in all this stuff. 
Hey we just put in an IDP and we

335
00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:55,400
can do single sign on an MFA and
we put in IGA and we can do 

336
00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:58,800
automated on boarding and off 
boarding and privilege access 

337
00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:00,640
management. 
We're vaulting and session 

338
00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:01,800
management. 
That's cool. 

339
00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:03,800
What about the data that you're 
collecting? 

340
00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:06,200
What does identity data mean to 
you? 

341
00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:09,800
You know, it's a great question.
I can't help but chuckle a 

342
00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,640
little bit. 
If I pose that question at, you 

343
00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:14,800
know, any of the players I've 
worked at, right, people would 

344
00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:17,480
probably look at me like I'm 
crazy, like I have no idea what 

345
00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:19,040
you're talking about. 
Right. 

346
00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:22,640
You, you go talk to like a chief
data office or folks that would 

347
00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:24,720
work in IT, they would 
understand that question 

348
00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:26,160
immediately. 
But then they'd be like, why you

349
00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:29,320
even asking, right. 
So we tend to think about data 

350
00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:31,880
And you know a lot of 
organizations have data offices 

351
00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:36,720
that have tools techniques for 
moving data and transactions and

352
00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:38,800
the security privacy 
implications. 

353
00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:41,840
But no one thinks about that in 
terms of the identity context. 

354
00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:44,800
And you know, ultimately I think
I go back to that design 

355
00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:49,120
thinking mentality of like well 
you know, in a good architecture

356
00:17:49,120 --> 00:17:50,360
or at least in my opinion, 
right. 

357
00:17:50,360 --> 00:17:52,680
Identity, should it be at the 
top of the pyramid, right. 

358
00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:55,320
D char or something 
authoritative for, you know, the

359
00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:59,840
physical person or life cycle 
controls, applications really 

360
00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:02,160
should feed into those identity 
systems. 

361
00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:05,600
And you know you have attributes
and things about people or 

362
00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:07,880
devices. 
But ultimately then it's going 

363
00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:10,440
to understand zooming out in 
that architectural view, who's 

364
00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:13,440
consuming it applications are. 
And you know, I think the piece 

365
00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:16,080
that people don't necessarily 
understand is a lot of 

366
00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:19,480
applications don't just hook 
into identity and reference it. 

367
00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:22,560
They hook into identity and then
copy it locally because they 

368
00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:26,000
need to store it for whatever 
way that application is 

369
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:27,480
architected. 
And when you ask me about what 

370
00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:31,000
do I think about identity data 
in my mind can't help go into 

371
00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:35,320
the importance of understanding 
that architectural diagram. 

372
00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:38,040
You know, I verbally talked 
about and the importance of 

373
00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:42,920
managing that data because you 
change setting an AD around, 

374
00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,520
hey, I'm going to make this 
field mandatory, capitalize when

375
00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:49,960
it was free tax before. 
You may break every app and you 

376
00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,040
know in your organization so you
know it's it's thinking 

377
00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:55,200
differently about it. 
And you know, I think maybe more

378
00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:59,640
interesting is, well, what does 
the future of identity look like

379
00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:01,880
when you start talking about 
privacy regulations? 

380
00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:05,440
You know, this question of what 
data do you have about people, 

381
00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:07,440
what are they doing is going to 
get really interesting. 

382
00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:11,040
And obviously in Europe, right, 
there's been a lot around 

383
00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:14,000
controlling or limiting, you 
know, tracking of employees or 

384
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:16,480
customers you have in the US, 
right. 

385
00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:18,760
We're kind of really at the 
early stages of those privacy 

386
00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:22,200
conversations. 
So you think for practitioners, 

387
00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:24,720
right, it's understanding what 
is your current state and you 

388
00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:26,920
know, potentially what could 
evolve over time, I don't know. 

389
00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:28,160
What do you guys think? 
Yeah. 

390
00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:31,280
Jim, I know that you are 
interested in this as well or 

391
00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:33,920
this concept of identity data. 
Like, what do you what does it 

392
00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:37,160
mean to you? 
I don't think there's one answer

393
00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:40,800
to this question I but I do 
think John kind of pointed to 

394
00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:43,960
the right point. 
So I think of identity in the 

395
00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:46,720
realm of attributes about a 
person. 

396
00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:50,600
The attributes aren't like flat,
just lists of texts. 

397
00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:53,520
They could be things like 
relationships potentially. 

398
00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:55,240
It really depends on the 
organization. 

399
00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:58,400
I think when you're talking 
about like managing identity 

400
00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:01,600
within an enterprise, it's 
usually the data that you can 

401
00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:06,080
get from the HR system. 
It's maybe some data points that

402
00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:09,600
are coming from other systems. 
But when you look at like ACIM 

403
00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:13,240
environment, now think about 
this, think about, OK, Jeff 

404
00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:15,640
Steadman is the identity that 
we're interested in. 

405
00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:19,040
His relationships are this is 
his spouse, these are his 

406
00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:20,360
brothers. 
Things like that. 

407
00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:23,080
Is that identity data is data 
about them. 

408
00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:26,360
Identity data. 
For you, what about what 

409
00:20:26,360 --> 00:20:28,760
websites you've gone to within 
that realm? 

410
00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:31,120
What about what orders you've 
placed? 

411
00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:33,520
Where do you draw the line? 
And then you start saying, well,

412
00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:37,880
no, maybe orders. 
That's not identity data, but 

413
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:41,200
certainly the person's name is. 
Well, now what if you have seven

414
00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,120
different websites and you allow
people to define their name? 

415
00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:47,320
Or a better example would be 
addresses. 

416
00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:51,520
So in one system you have an 
address that's like here's my 

417
00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:54,000
shipping address and here on 
another system here's my 

418
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:56,160
shipping address and etcetera, 
etcetera. 

419
00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:59,640
So now as an organization you 
will say, no, we're not going to

420
00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:03,360
now let you set your shipping 
address in those seven websites.

421
00:21:03,360 --> 00:21:06,800
You have to come back to some 
central profile system to set 

422
00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:09,880
your delivery address that it 
really depends on what the 

423
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:11,280
organization is trying to 
achieve. 

424
00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:13,240
So I'm not even going to try and
solve that answer. 

425
00:21:13,360 --> 00:21:16,680
But what I'm saying is like 
there are very few attributes 

426
00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:20,120
about a person where it's 
clearly yes, this is identity 

427
00:21:20,120 --> 00:21:23,760
data that should be managed in 
the center and should not be 

428
00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:27,120
managed in applications. 
It's really depends on what 

429
00:21:27,120 --> 00:21:28,640
makes sense for your 
organization. 

430
00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:30,400
Yeah, that's if I were to jump 
in there. 

431
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:32,920
You know, I think you tease on 
something I'm really passionate 

432
00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:35,920
about is, yeah, you think about 
what is identity, right? 

433
00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:39,840
Obviously the centralized tools,
directories or SSO clearly sit 

434
00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:42,960
with the teams that run them. 
But I think there's that broader

435
00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:47,120
definition and responsibility of
you know how is your corporate 

436
00:21:47,120 --> 00:21:50,640
phone managed or the consumer's 
phone or their laptop. 

437
00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:54,280
Well, there was all that local 
data that sits in there about 

438
00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:58,600
who you are, your behavior that 
usually an identity may not run,

439
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,280
but if you think about identity 
as a perimeter, new perimeter, 

440
00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:05,080
you know identity at the center 
or identity centric security, we

441
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:07,440
have to orchestrate that and no 
one else is going to do unless 

442
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:11,000
we do it right. 
So like that mesh concept of I 

443
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:13,160
think previous speakers have 
talked about you know that 

444
00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:17,320
graph, you know what who you are
in these different systems, your

445
00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:19,880
behavior to really build out 
those analytics I think is 

446
00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:22,200
really the forefront of where 
security is going to go. 

447
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:25,960
Not only for you know 
corporations to drive security 

448
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:29,760
maturity, but you think about if
you draw a comparison right, 

449
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:32,520
some of the largest companies in
the world don't really sell a 

450
00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,480
lot of products. 
We give them our data and you 

451
00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:37,760
know they're multi billion 
dollars because they're really 

452
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:41,160
good about understanding that 
broader context of who you are, 

453
00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:44,640
what you're doing, where you're 
doing it to build analytics. 

454
00:22:45,120 --> 00:22:48,240
Yeah, but we don't tend to think
about identity and security in 

455
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:50,120
the same way, right. 
We, I think we have to shift our

456
00:22:50,120 --> 00:22:53,760
mindset of you know, not that 
I'm going to advocate for 

457
00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:57,320
browser cookies and the 
enterprise for tracking, but you

458
00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:00,120
know this problem has been 
solved at scale globally in 

459
00:23:00,120 --> 00:23:01,560
different markets like 
marketing. 

460
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,960
You know how do we think about 
that differently in you know the

461
00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:09,040
enterprise Oregon consumer space
to really drive that mesh 

462
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:11,320
architecture. 
Well, I think you open up a 

463
00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:13,880
little bit of a Pandora's box 
here, because now we're talking 

464
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:17,080
about data and is it identity 
data or just data? 

465
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,120
And then who owns it? 
Who's responsible for it? 

466
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:24,040
Where do we see responsibilities
live for the data collection? 

467
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:26,960
And if it's identity data, does 
it belong to the identity team? 

468
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:29,520
And then how do you make that 
available to others who might 

469
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:31,040
use it? 
Should you make it available to 

470
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:34,440
others? 
If you're somehow collecting non

471
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,680
identity data because a 
marketing team says, hey, we'd 

472
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,200
like you to collect e-mail 
addresses for people, you don't 

473
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:42,200
maybe need it for your system. 
Maybe e-mail address is a bad 

474
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:44,280
example because everybody logs 
in with an e-mail address, but 

475
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:45,880
go with me after this one, 
right? 

476
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:50,160
You may be collecting bits of 
data on behalf of another group,

477
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,960
so who owns that data? 
Who's responsible for that data?

478
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,760
Have you come across this in 
your experience like that? 

479
00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:58,400
Ownership struggle? 
Or maybe it's not a struggle, 

480
00:23:58,400 --> 00:23:59,720
Maybe it's clearly defined 
upfront. 

481
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,600
Yeah, that's a good question. 
And you know, my experience, 

482
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:04,440
it's not even really a 
conversation, right. 

483
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:07,680
People, I think, think about the
problem so differently. 

484
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:09,160
It doesn't even cross their 
minds. 

485
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:12,240
And I think part of what will 
drive the change in the 

486
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:15,800
conversation, understanding the 
problem of that identity data 

487
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:19,400
is, you know, more regulatory 
pressure around security or 

488
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:21,480
privacy. 
And you know who's really 

489
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:23,280
supposed to drive that? 
You know, regardless of 

490
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,920
ownership, You know, like most 
things and identity, you know, 

491
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:29,880
you kind of sit in between 
multiple lines of ownership, 

492
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:32,400
direct and indirect and. 
Right. 

493
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:36,280
If you have X amount of 
employees, right, you've got X 

494
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:38,840
amount of people telling you, 
you know what they think and 

495
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:43,240
feel, you know that's important 
thing to remember in terms of 

496
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,560
how do we engage with people. 
We have to be hyper 

497
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:49,120
collaborative and focus on the 
problems that business needs to 

498
00:24:49,120 --> 00:24:51,280
solve. 
So you know we're always keeping

499
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,040
it at a step above versus you 
know having that direct 

500
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,920
ownership is important. 
What about indicators of 

501
00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:59,200
compromise? 
Do you see that as an area where

502
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,120
we can use these bits of 
identity that we're collecting 

503
00:25:02,120 --> 00:25:06,280
to say, hey, we're noticing 
things, How successful do you 

504
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:11,400
generally see identity data 
contributing to an indicator of 

505
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:13,560
compromise? 
And I think we're all familiar 

506
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:17,040
with something like, oh, there's
a bad login attempt or too many 

507
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:19,400
bad passwords entered, right? 
Sprite passwords, Bray text, 

508
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,400
things like that. 
But do you have ideas of how 

509
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:24,960
maybe we can leverage identity 
data to help with that? 

510
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:26,880
Oh gosh, yeah. 
I think that's gonna be really 

511
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:28,920
interesting. 
And you think about, you know, 

512
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:32,880
the analysis people put out 
there about the identity market 

513
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,480
as a business, right? 
People say it's 60 billion a 

514
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:37,480
year or 80 billion. 
You know, people throw out on 

515
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,000
these big numbers. 
You know, at the end of the day,

516
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:43,560
all that tells me is there's big
problems for companies that have

517
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:47,040
to solve and you know, there's 
foundational stuff you either 

518
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:49,880
should have been doing or you 
need to do, you know, SSO and 

519
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,680
MFA, easy examples. 
But then there's more advanced 

520
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,680
like how do you start connecting
things together. 

521
00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:00,000
And you know, people use that 
analogy of security controls are

522
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,200
shifting less. 
And I'm not big on buzzwords. 

523
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:03,680
I don't, I don't particularly 
like them. 

524
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,200
You know, I think most people 
don't really know what they're 

525
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,560
saying or other people don't 
hear what they intend to say. 

526
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:12,720
But I think the, the point, you 
know, when people say that is 

527
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:15,200
architectures, corporations are 
changing, right. 

528
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,160
You're going to more SAS 
solutions, cloud solutions, 

529
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,000
environments, environments are 
getting more complicated at the 

530
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,280
end of the day, right? 
We have to move security 

531
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:27,000
controls to, you know, earlier 
or you know to use the analogy, 

532
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,920
shift left. 
And the way I think we have to 

533
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,600
do that is connecting all those 
things together. 

534
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:35,880
You know, to use a simple 
example, right? 

535
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:39,840
You you may have Intune, you 
know in your environment, right?

536
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,880
That has its own identity that 
may be separate from how you log

537
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:47,440
in say with a Ping or an Octa or
Cyber Ark whatever the vendor 

538
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:49,200
may be. 
I think you know how do you 

539
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,080
connect those things together 
that may not natively connect. 

540
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,080
That is I think where the 
innovation will be and you see a

541
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,840
lot of companies filling that 
gap of how do you connect those 

542
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:02,680
entirely new product categories.
And so you know I guess maybe 

543
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:05,800
I'll conclude it right. 
I think a lot of the legacy, you

544
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:09,000
know, things around identity, 
they're not going away, but 

545
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,440
they're really becoming 
commodity services and companies

546
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:15,840
that are focusing on indicators 
of compromise and the ability to

547
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:20,000
see, you know, where you have 
permissions, where can attackers

548
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,560
get into the environment. 
That is where I think there are 

549
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:26,640
a lot of the value it's going to
be going forward of simplifying 

550
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:28,680
this complexity of the IT 
environment. 

551
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,000
Hey, John, I totally agree with 
you on what you're saying with 

552
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:33,480
like using buzz terms like shift
left. 

553
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:37,080
In fact when people use this 
kind of terms, I have zero trust

554
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,200
for them. 
So I just wanted to get that out

555
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,440
there. 
So John, obviously you're going 

556
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:44,400
to speak from your experience, 
right? 

557
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:48,200
You're not answering this for 
the world in general, but your 

558
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,400
perspective. 
When you talk about identity to 

559
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,800
the business, or when you hear 
what the business thinks of 

560
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:57,360
identity, they have any concept 
of what it really is. 

561
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:01,960
Or is this just about changing 
passwords, You know, still like 

562
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,000
people living in that Stone Age?
You know. 

563
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:08,120
I think a lot of people struggle
and I think that it has to 

564
00:28:08,120 --> 00:28:11,840
change over the time, right? 
But rewind 10 years ago, people 

565
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:13,880
were having the same 
conversation about anything in 

566
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:15,640
cybersecurity. 
You're like, why are we talking 

567
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,640
about this, right? 
And I think it's one helping 

568
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:22,240
people understand what are we 
trying to solve, what do we need

569
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:25,440
to solve to protect an 
organization, to meet regulatory

570
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,440
or privacy requirements. 
And I think one of the things 

571
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:33,440
that is a challenge, identity is
like a super set in cyber, maybe

572
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,520
one of the largest, right? 
And we have tend to use our own 

573
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,240
language. 
Well, you know, it's my 

574
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,960
experience, yeah, that doesn't 
always help us, right. 

575
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,160
Because you know, even within 
cyber IT people are like, we 

576
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,200
have no idea what you're talking
about, right, Because we're 

577
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:49,320
using our own language. 
They don't hear what they want 

578
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,000
to hear or need to hear. 
So kind of going back to that 

579
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,840
communication and you know, I 
think it's really important to 

580
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,440
ground yourself. 
You know, if you work in an 

581
00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,160
enterprise environment, most 
likely you're not working for an

582
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,200
identity company where you're, 
that's how you make your money, 

583
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:05,080
right. 
It's, it's other things. 

584
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:08,720
And I'm not belittling the 
criticality of identity at all. 

585
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,920
I actually think the opposite. 
You know, we can and should 

586
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,640
drive revenue, but it's not the 
direct thing that drives 

587
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,240
revenue. 
And understanding that in 

588
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:22,760
aligning to organizational 
priorities is important and 

589
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:25,800
balancing that with risk, right.
You know, just because we want 

590
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,120
to do something to drive revenue
doesn't mean we should also do 

591
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:30,160
something because it's you know,
risk driven. 

592
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,520
But boiling it down to more 
simple terms and language, you 

593
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:35,960
know, I think it's really 
important and you know, I think 

594
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:38,640
things have evolved and will 
continue to evolve right where 

595
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:41,880
people are in tune with you 
know, vulnerability management 

596
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:46,760
or patching or the importance of
you know, security awareness, 

597
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:48,480
right. 
People understand why we have to

598
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:50,800
invest in those things. 
You know, I think just 

599
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,920
continuing to focus on the 
business or the customer, if 

600
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:56,920
you're a customer identity, you 
know what we need to do to 

601
00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:00,360
enable them is is a good way for
us to drive the industry 

602
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:01,080
forward. 
Yeah. 

603
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:06,280
And I think in in the banking 
industry you certainly have been

604
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:12,080
driven a lot by regulation and 
the need to drive security in on

605
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,240
the customer side, prevent fraud
for sure. 

606
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:19,720
So there's like all the security
benefit is obvious, but I'm 

607
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,480
wondering you know the do you 
feel like the business 

608
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,760
understands or thinks of 
Identity as an enabler like we 

609
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:29,680
can use identity to improve our 
our grow our business? 

610
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:32,640
Yeah, That's a good question. 
I think it depends on how you 

611
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:36,560
position it, right. 
It could be that that carrot or 

612
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:40,680
it could be a stick, right. 
You know, sometimes obviously 

613
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,400
that we have to do things 
because it's things you have to 

614
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:45,480
do for security or regulatory 
requirements. 

615
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:48,600
But going about it in terms of 
like beating the business over 

616
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,720
the head, well, people usually 
remember that hurts, right. 

617
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:55,560
And you know, it may be required
sometimes, but it has a lasting 

618
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,200
negative impact. 
And you know, I'll, I'll be a 

619
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:00,960
little bit more real, right. 
I think, you know, say in the 

620
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,920
customer identity space, yeah, 
it, it can be something that's 

621
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,120
critical, but we have to 
position it the right way. 

622
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:09,120
Right. 
And let's maybe use an example, 

623
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:10,840
right. 
And I'm making up an example 

624
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,760
like if I went to a website and 
it was painful for me to log in,

625
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,600
to sign up just to get in, I 
might not, you know, continue. 

626
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:20,040
Well, that's the easy one, 
right. 

627
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:25,120
Well, what about if I, you know,
say go to, you know, a car 

628
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:29,200
dealership's website and they've
got some type of buying program.

629
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:32,680
Well, they need to sign you up 
for identity, they need to, do 

630
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,960
you know, KYC and KYC really is 
identity proofing. 

631
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,360
You know, for the most case they
have to do background checks, 

632
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,280
identity proofing. 
Well, what if they said I need 

633
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,960
to mail in a paper form, right? 
No, thank you. 

634
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:48,040
Right. 
You know, these are simple and 

635
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:51,840
easy kind of dramatic examples, 
but they're very real, right. 

636
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:56,040
A lot of our, you know, digital 
products, softwares were built 

637
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:59,840
in the 90s and 2000 and took 
static human processes and put 

638
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:02,560
them into the digital world. 
I think what you're seeing now 

639
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,880
is identity continuing to 
accelerate where yeah, we really

640
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:08,560
can know who the person is 
really quickly with a high 

641
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:12,680
degree of accuracy that is tied 
back to financial things, right.

642
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,920
And if we start talking about it
in that way, right, one and you 

643
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,360
can talk about customer 
retention or onboarding or you 

644
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:23,920
know sales cycle that has direct
revenue ties, You know that that

645
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,800
is an opportunity for us to 
really drive and think about 

646
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:30,160
identity, to drive the security 
aspect, but also the revenue 

647
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:32,120
side as well. 
I'll give you a real world 

648
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:34,400
example that just happened to me
this past weekend. 

649
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:36,720
I had dinner reservations set 
up. 

650
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,360
Actually, just lunch 
reservations, taking my aunt out

651
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:41,840
for her birthday and it's like, 
OK great. 

652
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:47,160
I get a call saying, hey, we 
cannot process credit cards, 

653
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:51,920
we're only accepting cash and 
personal checks to pay your bill

654
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:56,040
and Nope, not happening. 
I went and found someplace else 

655
00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:00,480
they made they made it. 
Too much friction for me to go 

656
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,640
to their place of establishment 
and spend a lot of money you 

657
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:05,520
know on on a nice lunch and 
dinner. 

658
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,880
So I am absolutely in that use 
case of like you're gonna send 

659
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,560
you're gonna have me do what 
Like that Friction is such an 

660
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:13,600
important point that I think 
people really need to think 

661
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:16,280
about. 
You know, I I have not written a

662
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:22,560
check for a a meal in probably 
25 years or ever like that's 

663
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,040
that was the response. 
Like really OK we'll try your 

664
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:26,680
place another time we'll go 
someplace else. 

665
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:28,160
So I I just want to echo that 
part. 

666
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:29,120
Yeah. 
One of the, yeah, one of the 

667
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,720
things I think is interesting is
you talk about you know this 

668
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:35,600
notion of like a pre customer if
you're you know, digital 

669
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:39,120
business, right. 
You can log someone in maybe, 

670
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:41,720
but they're not signed up for a 
product or service that you 

671
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,120
offer. 
Well, is, is it the identity 

672
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:47,360
team's job to drive that or 
maybe is it marketing? 

673
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:50,320
I think that's an interesting 
question because you know if 

674
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:54,040
maybe my spouse is a customer of
that site and you know, maybe 

675
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:57,320
I'm considering signing up for 
something obviously BM abstract 

676
00:33:57,320 --> 00:33:58,880
here. 
But my point being is like we 

677
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:02,160
talked about, you know, in human
life, we all have connections 

678
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,320
that, hey, I learned about this 
awesome podcast, Can I, can I 

679
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:07,360
come speak And you guys were 
like, yeah, this is great, 

680
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:09,840
right? 
Our, our connections kind of 

681
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:12,719
brought us together, right. 
How do we do that in the digital

682
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,280
world where we're correlating 
this data and you know that 

683
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,960
broader notion of identity and 
who we're connected to that's 

684
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,320
you know, very a lot of very 
clear and a lot of revenue 

685
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:26,800
potential to think about digital
modernization in in a real way. 

686
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,560
So you know, I think we're not 
necessarily talking a lot about 

687
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,239
that as identity practitioners 
or security because we're 

688
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:36,239
focused I think more on the 
security side in a lot of cases.

689
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,639
But I think we should talk more 
about, you know, what does it 

690
00:34:39,639 --> 00:34:43,120
mean to drive connectedness 
digitally and you know, what 

691
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:46,400
does that do for the business? 
Yeah, that's a great point, 

692
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:48,280
Jeff. 
I loved your story. 

693
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:50,280
It reminded me of the Seinfeld 
episode. 

694
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:52,320
You know how to take the 
reservation. 

695
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:56,199
You just don't know how to hold 
the reservation, and that's 

696
00:34:56,199 --> 00:34:59,880
really the important part of the
reservation, the holding of the 

697
00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:02,120
reservation. 
Anytime we can get a Seinfeld, 

698
00:35:02,240 --> 00:35:04,160
you know, reference into a show,
I consider it a win. 

699
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:06,320
We should probably just stop 
right now, but let's keep going.

700
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:07,800
We should probably stop right 
now. 

701
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:10,360
It's also a high note, Jim. 
There you go. 

702
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:12,720
There's another one for. 
You, you throw a cream of 

703
00:35:12,720 --> 00:35:14,840
reference in and you know I'll 
give you guys a high 5. 

704
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:17,600
We'll see if we can work one in 
by the time the show's over. 

705
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:20,760
Perfect. 
So John, I mean, one of the 

706
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,840
things that you're tasked with, 
right, you have to sell identity

707
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:28,200
investments to the business, 
whether it's for security 

708
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:33,560
purposes or for enabling some 
business growth opportunity. 

709
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,360
So what is the angle that you 
take? 

710
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:39,520
Is it you try to speak the 
language of the business? 

711
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,360
What are some of the tips that 
you'd throw out there for the 

712
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:46,080
listener? 
Yeah, I go back to understanding

713
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:48,640
what's going on in the business.
You know IT. 

714
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:50,840
Are you an IT team? 
Cause a lot of identity teams 

715
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,920
sit within IT and have security.
You know what's going on. 

716
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:57,640
You know, what are your leaders 
talking about and what are their

717
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:01,080
leaders talking about? 
And I'm a little weird, I I like

718
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:05,480
to read SEC and business 
statements, 'cause I think you 

719
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:08,360
know, it offers an interesting 
perspective on companies, right.

720
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:12,160
So if you're a publicly listed 
company, read that stuff and I 

721
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:14,200
don't know, maybe you're 
probably more educated than I 

722
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:16,720
will be, but I don't understand 
a lot of it. 

723
00:36:16,720 --> 00:36:20,360
But you do pick up on you know 
where things are going, you know

724
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:24,240
what's what is driving revenue, 
where things are focused, what 

725
00:36:24,240 --> 00:36:27,440
are they concerned about. 
And you know may that may not 

726
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:30,280
help you directly, but 
understanding that broader 

727
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:32,080
organization I think is 
important, right. 

728
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:35,120
So what are the organizational 
efforts, how does this tie in 

729
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:39,200
And you know if you're lucky 
enough, right identity is a 

730
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:42,920
organizational priority. 
That may or may not always be 

731
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:46,400
the case for everyone, but you 
know, tying back into why it's 

732
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,920
critical for what we do, you 
know, what are we driving? 

733
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:53,160
You know, if you're in Europe, 
obviously there are a lot of 

734
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:56,320
laws and regulations where 
identity is very clearly tied. 

735
00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:57,960
And you know, you don't have a 
choice. 

736
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:00,320
You know, in the United States 
it's maybe a little bit more 

737
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:02,160
abstract. 
But you know, at the end of the 

738
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:05,040
day, you know, whether it's 
protecting money or protecting 

739
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:07,520
data or protecting just 
customers, right? 

740
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:11,200
It's understanding like how does
it boil down because you know, 

741
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:13,920
at the end of the day, right, 
for the layperson, you know, I 

742
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,080
don't care about us. 
So like, why does it matter, 

743
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:18,120
right? 
But it's it's about what does it

744
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,600
get us and why does that matter 
for people in for, you know, 

745
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:25,280
people consuming the services. 
So you've been in this space for

746
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:30,000
a while and I'm curious what you
think has been, what's the most 

747
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:34,040
important change that you've 
seen in the identity industry in

748
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:35,480
your career in IT? 
Oh. 

749
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:40,600
I think there's probably 2 and I
think one was the broader 

750
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:45,600
recognition of the criticality 
of security and identity right. 

751
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:49,760
You see a lot flip flop of 
identity teams being within you 

752
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:55,320
know maybe a non security to 
people using you know buzzwords 

753
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:59,600
of identity security or you know
shift shifting identities in new

754
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:01,720
perimeter. 
You know it's been my experience

755
00:38:01,720 --> 00:38:03,600
if you actually ask people well 
can you tell me what that 

756
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:07,200
actually means people are like 
what right. 

757
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:11,600
But I think what's happening now
is you know whether it's the the

758
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,920
big identity providers or the 
traditional security providers 

759
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:18,600
starting to offer identity 
technologies, is people really 

760
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:22,080
understanding you know the role 
of all these tools connected 

761
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:25,160
together and what can they do to
protect people. 

762
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:28,760
So I think we're on the cusp of 
the next evolution of this 

763
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:32,680
becoming real, right, whether 
that be password lists, 

764
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:38,800
technologies being real to 
identity, actually providing new

765
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:43,120
insights around behaviors and 
indicators of compromise or 

766
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:46,240
attack, You know, continuing to 
drive that I think is really 

767
00:38:46,240 --> 00:38:49,560
critical. 
I think customer identity is 

768
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:52,280
similarly on a different 
journey, right, because it has 

769
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:54,840
different focus, yes, security, 
but also a lot of user 

770
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,680
enablement, revenue generation. 
And you know, I think that 

771
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:01,400
journey is just beginning where 
you know has a lot of potential 

772
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:03,880
to go in many different 
directions around doing that 

773
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:05,440
correlation we've been talking 
about. 

774
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:09,200
So I'm particularly excited by 
that because you know, it'd be 

775
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:13,000
really fun to see Identity 
actually having ability to drive

776
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,400
revenue and insights in a 
totally different way. 

777
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:18,200
You know, kind of going back to 
that analogy of, you know, 

778
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:21,160
cookies and Google and all these
companies making money off 

779
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:23,800
tracking behavior, right, You 
know, and thinking about it in a

780
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:27,400
different manner. 
Do you think we've I I feel like

781
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:29,160
we have and I'm just wanna 
curious your thoughts you feel 

782
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:32,560
like we've moved past the phase 
of you know you contribute 

783
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:37,120
nothing to society is whereas 
identity is not really well 

784
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,280
understood and now it is I. 
Don't know if we've moved past 

785
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:42,520
it. 
I think we're still early in 

786
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:47,480
that journey and you know 
ultimately understanding the 

787
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:49,800
role we play, right. 
Like I mentioned, I don't think 

788
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,160
any of us or most of us are 
going to work for organizations 

789
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:54,120
where we are the ones driving 
revenue. 

790
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:56,480
And I think it's really 
important for security 

791
00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:00,080
practitioners, anyone in 
technology to understand how do 

792
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,080
how do we drive revenue and why 
it's critical. 

793
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:05,320
And I'm not minimizing the role 
of technology or security or 

794
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:09,200
identity at all, right, But it's
understanding everyone has 

795
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:10,960
different focuses and 
organization. 

796
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:14,640
They're all equally valid and. 
The role we can play and you 

797
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:17,640
know why that matters because 
that builds that influence, that

798
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:20,520
credibility versus US kind of 
bringing that stake of thou 

799
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:23,280
shalt do this really hard thing 
called identity and it's 

800
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:26,000
probably going to take five 
years and you're not going to 

801
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:27,760
really see anything until five 
years, right. 

802
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:30,800
We have to think differently 
about it of showing incremental 

803
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:33,920
progress, value and impact and 
continuing to move on in terms 

804
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:35,440
of where we need to be in the 
future. 

805
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:37,480
So, Jeff, was that a cream of 
reference? 

806
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:39,760
Darn Tooting it was, yelled it 
out at Newman. 

807
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:41,120
Right over my head. 
It. 

808
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:43,960
Was for the wind, for the. 
Wind the trifecta. 

809
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:45,800
We're good. 
Awesome. 

810
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:46,440
Good. 
We're good. 

811
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:49,280
OK. 
John, So the Creamer sliding 

812
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:51,320
into the apartment. 
Kind of reference here. 

813
00:40:53,000 --> 00:41:00,360
The Cohibas smoking a Cohiba. 
So John, as far as kind of what 

814
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:05,120
do you see as kind of the big 
future innovations for IM and 

815
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:07,720
specific to the banking 
industry, I was gonna throw one 

816
00:41:07,720 --> 00:41:10,400
out there and then feel free to 
come up with your own. 

817
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:16,320
But 502 pass keys password list,
I mean I think it's kind of just

818
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:20,720
taking you know commerce by 
storm in terms of you know 

819
00:41:20,720 --> 00:41:24,240
that's that's the future. 
It's not just MFA because that's

820
00:41:24,240 --> 00:41:29,040
just the builds A builds 
friction in getting in right. 

821
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:32,440
Even though like as far as what 
it does for security it's like a

822
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:36,960
huge step up. 
So I'm not dissing MFA, but I 

823
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:41,160
kind of feel like Fighter Two is
and Pesky's is really where 

824
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:43,200
things are heading. 
I'm wondering what you think of 

825
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:45,240
that for banking. 
Is there something else on your 

826
00:41:45,240 --> 00:41:46,960
mind? 
You know, it's a great question 

827
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:50,360
and you know, I'd echo right. 
Yeah, I haven't seen a long time

828
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:53,480
the way we talked about MFA has 
to move on and it's good to see 

829
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:55,840
almost everyone's already 
recognized that now and you can 

830
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:57,960
use different terms, right. 
I think we all kind of alluding 

831
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:01,600
to the same thing, you know, 
adaptive MFA, contextual MFA, 

832
00:42:01,720 --> 00:42:04,840
you know it's all about do we 
really trust that's you right. 

833
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:08,200
And how do we prove that in a, 
you know, a way that we know for

834
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:10,240
certain it is. 
But you know I think if you talk

835
00:42:10,240 --> 00:42:14,640
about the banking industry more 
broadly, you know I imagine a 

836
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:17,040
lot of people have different 
opinions about banks right now. 

837
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:20,920
I got to go into a bank or it's 
painful, you know, but they play

838
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:23,680
important role in a society. 
And you know, I can't help but 

839
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:25,760
get excited. 
If you kind of look at the news,

840
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:30,840
what's happening in the Europe 
right now with Europe passing on

841
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:33,480
a digital identity or it seems 
like I think they passed it. 

842
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:35,640
I don't know, Jeff, I think 
you're maybe heading out in 

843
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:39,680
here, but the digital wallet, 
European digital wallet, right. 

844
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:43,040
The European countries have, you
know, wanted to pass this. 

845
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:46,440
And you can't talk about digital
wallets without identity, right,

846
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:48,640
because you have to be able to 
prove it's really you in a 

847
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:50,560
really secure way to get access 
to that. 

848
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:53,680
But you know, I think financial 
services as a whole is shifting 

849
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:58,120
from really static capabilities 
that were probably built for 

850
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:00,120
when you went into a physical 
place. 

851
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:03,040
You know, a lot of those 
controls, whether they're fraud 

852
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:07,000
risks, security, you know, were 
transported into a digital world

853
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:09,160
but never really designed for 
the digital world. 

854
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:12,120
So I think, you know, we're 
about to see a massive shift. 

855
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:15,840
And you know, I think Evident 
alone is look at all the fintech

856
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,280
companies that are out there 
that are soon started. 

857
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:22,440
You know, the opportunity to do 
innovation is massive. 

858
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:24,920
And you know, that I think is 
really neat because it's going 

859
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:27,800
to change not only the 
technology but more important, 

860
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:29,720
you know, the impact for 
society. 

861
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:32,840
And you kind of really get into 
this broader notion of identity,

862
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:34,080
right? 
You people talk about 

863
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:37,160
decentralized identity, I think 
for a long time. 

864
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:38,640
And I'm like, yeah, it makes 
sense. 

865
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:41,440
But show me something real, 
like, you know, has anyone 

866
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:43,560
really using this? 
And you're starting to see real 

867
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:46,840
examples now emerge where you 
know, people that are immigrants

868
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:49,680
that have no documentation, like
how do you integrate them into 

869
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:53,080
societies, whether it's Europe, 
the United States, You know, how

870
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:56,120
do you connect them to service 
loans? 

871
00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:57,680
Right. 
You know, a large portion of 

872
00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:00,960
this country doesn't have access
to Internet, right? 

873
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:03,760
Like the majority of government 
services are offered through the

874
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:05,360
Internet. 
That's a pretty important 

875
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:08,720
problem for society to solve. 
And it's really all around 

876
00:44:08,720 --> 00:44:10,960
identity and how do you connect 
people? 

877
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:14,760
So I'm, I'm really bullish. 
I think there's a lot of amazing

878
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,320
opportunity going forward for 
decades. 

879
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:20,480
And I think the problems that 
you know, we have to solve today

880
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:23,240
or in the past, you know, we'll 
evolve, right. 

881
00:44:23,240 --> 00:44:25,600
And we're going to have these 
new problems around the data and

882
00:44:25,720 --> 00:44:28,560
citizen enablement and 
e-commerce. 

883
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:30,120
And I think that's really 
exciting. 

884
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:33,440
And I think you know Jim, right,
you're going back to, you got to

885
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:36,280
build broad skill sets and 
identity, right. 

886
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:38,600
It's not just technical, and 
that's really pretty important. 

887
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:41,080
Yeah, you know, I'm just going 
to throw this out there. 

888
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:46,480
We are coming close on time and 
I want to be respectful of your 

889
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:48,160
time. 
So more of a rapid fire and I'm 

890
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:51,640
going to bring up something that
I don't know a whole lot about. 

891
00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:55,280
But I understand these things 
are kind of quote UN quote game 

892
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:58,560
changers. 
So financial grade APIs and open

893
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:02,840
banking to areas where I'm not 
an expert, but I'd love to hear 

894
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:05,200
your thoughts. 
You know, I I don't know if I 

895
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:07,720
would say I'm an expert either. 
You know, I have had 

896
00:45:07,720 --> 00:45:10,760
conversations. 
I can understand the use cases, 

897
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:14,240
you know, but I think that will 
continue to evolve and you know,

898
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:17,120
questions I would have as I look
into that is what problems are 

899
00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:20,360
we trying to solve more broadly?
And you know, personally, I 

900
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:21,920
definitely am interested in 
learning more. 

901
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:25,160
So I want to ask what your 
thoughts on a couple of items 

902
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:26,760
here. 
Just real quickly. 

903
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:30,480
AI is everywhere, it seems like.
I have to imagine that you're 

904
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:33,520
seeing it as well as part of 
some of the stuff that you work 

905
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:36,240
on. 
Where do you see AI really 

906
00:45:36,240 --> 00:45:39,920
impacting identity for you? 
You know right now it's not I 

907
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:42,840
think something that we're 
seeing direct impact yet. 

908
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:46,120
I think the potential is there 
and you know I I try to have a 

909
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:49,840
level head about these things, 
It absolutely will be a game 

910
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:53,720
changer for society, for 
companies, no doubt you know, 

911
00:45:53,720 --> 00:45:57,800
but if you zoom back, a lot of 
companies are doing things that 

912
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:01,480
we said were bleeding edge 1520 
years ago, right. 

913
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:05,480
You go look at the Magic 
Quadrant or whatever, you know, 

914
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:07,880
maturity, scale, right, of where
people are going to invest their

915
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:09,960
time and money. 
You know, everyone said when the

916
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:13,080
iPhone came out, oh, we're going
to, you know, you know, build 

917
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:15,360
mobile apps. 
And yeah, companies kind of did 

918
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:17,280
it, but not really right. 
And companies are still 

919
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:19,840
investing in those things 1015 
years later. 

920
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:22,720
So I think practically I think 
it's going to take time, but 

921
00:46:22,720 --> 00:46:25,400
maybe not as long. 
You know, where I think I think 

922
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:30,600
is really exciting is the 
ability to have a technology 

923
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:33,400
that can integrate into that 
data set of identity. 

924
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:36,600
Hey, does this person really 
need access or did they just say

925
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:39,520
right, are they using it? 
Give me the ability to know 

926
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:42,080
that, right. 
Having really intelligent versus

927
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:45,840
static controls, you know those 
are easy examples where it's 

928
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:49,200
going to have huge influence, 
you know in this space going 

929
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:51,000
forward. 
And and I can't help but going 

930
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:55,320
back to the, you know, we have 
to drive outcomes more broadly, 

931
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:57,160
right? 
If we have the ability to see 

932
00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:00,280
this stuff in Orchestrate, those
are great tools for people to 

933
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:04,040
scale out versus continuing to 
try to ask for more headcount, 

934
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:06,360
right, because that's probably 
not a winning strategy, right. 

935
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:10,440
So I'm I'm really interested in 
see how it influences the 

936
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:13,040
product Rd. maps of companies 
coming coming soon here I'm. 

937
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:14,640
Going to throw another one out 
for you. 

938
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:19,240
This big trend in the industry 
is around converged identity. 

939
00:47:19,240 --> 00:47:23,760
In other words, one software 
vendor does it all and can 

940
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:26,840
compare and contrast that with 
best of breed. 

941
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:29,840
And if you're like me, there's 
not a black and white answer, 

942
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:31,880
but I'd like you to. 
I'd like to understand your 

943
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:35,360
headspace when it comes to 
converged identity versus best 

944
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:37,320
of breed approach. 
Yeah, no, it makes sense. 

945
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:40,400
And you know, I think if you're 
a smaller company organization, 

946
00:47:40,720 --> 00:47:43,880
if you don't have an IT staff, 
you know going to something like

947
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:46,920
a Microsoft or some other 
comparable vendor, right, 

948
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:50,440
totally makes sense because 
you're you're really there to 

949
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:53,200
enable other things. 
But as you grow in 

950
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:55,280
organizational size and 
complexity, I think that 

951
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:58,920
question probably shifts. 
And you know I think ultimately 

952
00:47:59,240 --> 00:48:01,640
to enable business security 
outcomes we have to be able to 

953
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:04,840
shift tools when they no longer 
serve our needs. 

954
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:09,560
So I get hesitant to say that we
should go all in on you know a 

955
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:13,560
massive platform because the 
stickiness that that drives and 

956
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:16,040
the ability to move off of it, 
you know doesn't necessarily 

957
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:19,240
enable those business outcomes. 
So I think it really depends and

958
00:48:19,240 --> 00:48:21,320
you have to be really careful. 
So we've had a great 

959
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:23,400
conversation and I want to start
to wrap things up. 

960
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:27,880
We were talking before we hit 
record that you're interested in

961
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:31,560
vineyards, and so I want to 
understand a little more about 

962
00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:34,080
this interests. 
I don't know if it's a passion 

963
00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:36,680
or a hobby, or maybe it's 
everything, but if you were to 

964
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:39,200
create your own vineyard, what 
type of wine would you 

965
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:42,520
specialize in and why? 
No, that's a great question. 

966
00:48:42,720 --> 00:48:44,280
And you know, I didn't say where
I live. 

967
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:47,800
I actually live in Virginia. 
You know, when people think of 

968
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:50,080
wine, they obviously think of 
the West Coast. 

969
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:54,920
But Virginia has phenomenal wine
and, you know, amazing scenery, 

970
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:58,200
probably not really well known 
outside of Virginia or, you 

971
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:01,080
know, people that are really 
into wine, you know? 

972
00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:03,760
So I can't help but think about,
you know, wine's awesome, right?

973
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:06,120
It, it brings people together, 
you know? 

974
00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:07,800
You know, we're obviously really
interested in that as an 

975
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:10,200
identity professional, right, 
about bringing people together. 

976
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:13,600
But also, you know, I think it's
really interesting because wine 

977
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:17,080
grows in a place and it absorbs 
the flavor or the characters of 

978
00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:19,480
a place. 
And so, you know, I couldn't 

979
00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:22,240
help but think about, you know, 
living in an awesome world, you 

980
00:49:22,240 --> 00:49:25,000
know, beautiful mountains or 
rolling hills. 

981
00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:27,920
We are crafting this thing that 
brings people together. 

982
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:30,400
So, you know, personally, I love
caps of. 

983
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:33,080
But you know, if you were to 
come out to Virginia and I 

984
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:35,680
encourage you to do so, right? 
There's pretty much everything 

985
00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:38,000
out here. 
A lot of wine that you've 

986
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:42,720
probably never heard of, like 
VMA or Tanat or Petite Mensee 

987
00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:46,080
these great white wines, red 
wines, you know they have a lot 

988
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:49,160
of character and you know, bring
you out to amazing places and 

989
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:50,960
you know, make awesome 
connections. 

990
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:54,000
I recognize some of those words,
but only because my wife is 

991
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:57,160
really into wine, so I 
definitely know the only Jim 

992
00:49:57,160 --> 00:49:58,720
for. 
All different language. 

993
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:01,320
It it absolutely is, and it's 
fascinating. 

994
00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:05,200
I I think that there is a little
bit of a biological factor in 

995
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:09,240
this as well because my wife is 
the kind of person where she can

996
00:50:09,240 --> 00:50:11,560
taste it and she can taste all 
the tasting notes, right? 

997
00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:14,000
She's very good at telling you I
was like, oh, here's what the 

998
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:16,840
terroir was and here's the notes
of this and that. 

999
00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:22,360
And for me, all I taste is 
alcohol and wine and it's very 

1000
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:24,960
hard for me to enjoy it and 
appreciate it like she does, 

1001
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:27,880
because I just, I don't pick up 
on any of that. 

1002
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:31,920
Like I I can't smell it, I can't
taste it, and so I don't enjoy 

1003
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:34,200
it to the level of others. 
But I don't begrudge people for 

1004
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:36,040
that. 
You know, I have AI have a 

1005
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:38,080
infirmity and I just live with 
it. 

1006
00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:41,280
There you go. 
Yeah, well, I think the 

1007
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:43,720
important thing, like anything 
in life, it's about enjoyment 

1008
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:46,400
and, you know, having good 
connections and time with other 

1009
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:48,080
people. 
But I can't tell the difference 

1010
00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:49,640
between Coke and Pepsi, that is 
for sure. 

1011
00:50:49,720 --> 00:50:51,400
So you know, I've got my 
priorities straight. 

1012
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:55,720
Jim, if you were going to create
your own vineyard, what, what, 

1013
00:50:55,720 --> 00:50:57,040
what type of wine would you be 
making? 

1014
00:50:57,280 --> 00:50:59,640
So my favorite kind of wine is 
Merlot. 

1015
00:50:59,960 --> 00:51:04,240
And The funny thing about Merlot
is I feel like people like wine.

1016
00:51:04,240 --> 00:51:07,640
People think it's lowbrow. 
First off, as I was thinking 

1017
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:10,800
that that's what I wanted to 
say, the thought came to my mind

1018
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:14,320
of what does lowbrow mean? 
First off, that's like outdated.

1019
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:17,920
And anybody who's talking in 
those terms, I'm not taking 

1020
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:19,320
advice, I think. 
It has something to do with like

1021
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:21,720
if you're drinking out of a 
brown paper bag or something 

1022
00:51:21,720 --> 00:51:24,880
like that. 
Well, if you're drinking Merlot 

1023
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:28,080
out of a brown paper bag, I mean
you do you Jim, however you want

1024
00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:31,360
to assume it, that's yeah, 
that's not been my experience. 

1025
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:33,720
That's like Boone's farm or 
something like that. 

1026
00:51:33,720 --> 00:51:38,320
But actually I so I guess 
Merlot, but I wanted to threw 

1027
00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:42,160
this other idea out there. 
So I had this idea recently of 

1028
00:51:42,240 --> 00:51:45,040
you know maybe I'm going to 
throw this out there. 

1029
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:47,120
This is the first time you've 
heard this idea Jeff. 

1030
00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:51,440
But you know how last year we 
did an axe during event for 

1031
00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:55,760
identity at the center kind of a
meet up of all the listeners at 

1032
00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:59,800
Gartner and it was an awesome 
event and few people who were 

1033
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:01,840
like really into the podcast 
showed up. 

1034
00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:05,160
We threw axes. 
We had a couple of sponsors come

1035
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:06,760
out and like pay for the whole 
thing. 

1036
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:09,280
So it was completely free for 
everyone. 

1037
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:14,320
What if we did a high end wine 
tasting and like for people who 

1038
00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:16,400
drink, you're more than welcome 
to swallow. 

1039
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:20,400
If you don't drink, you're more 
than welcome to spit it into 

1040
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:24,400
some kind of like trash can. 
But my idea was we'd have, I 

1041
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:27,240
think the right term is 
sommelier, like somebody who 

1042
00:52:27,240 --> 00:52:29,920
like, really knows the wine. 
Who would say, all right, now 

1043
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:34,480
we're going to open this 1997 
Cabernet Sauvignon? 

1044
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:38,200
And this was a great year 
because it was, you know, a 

1045
00:52:38,240 --> 00:52:43,360
drought or something like that. 
And, you know, expect some hints

1046
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:47,120
of coffee and black cherries or 
something like that. 

1047
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:49,840
And then everybody would get 
like, you know, 1/2 an inch of 

1048
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:52,480
this wine. 
They'd be able to taste it and 

1049
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:57,040
it would be wines that most 
people would not buy because 

1050
00:52:57,360 --> 00:52:59,960
like $200 a bottle or something 
like that. 

1051
00:53:00,240 --> 00:53:02,880
And we could do it with like 10 
different wines. 

1052
00:53:03,240 --> 00:53:05,280
So what do you think? 
Is that a good idea? 

1053
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:07,560
A bad idea? 
I don't know, but it's 

1054
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:10,320
sommelier, so that's how you 
pronounce it. 

1055
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:13,200
My wife actually used to do. 
That I mean the sommelier. 

1056
00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:16,000
The sommelier. 
I mean, I don't think in her. 

1057
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:17,880
I thought you were gonna have 
something a little more 

1058
00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:21,600
interactive, like doing a crush,
jumping into a VAT full of 

1059
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:24,080
grapes and just stomping on them
and stuff like that. 

1060
00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:26,280
That's pretty popular actually. 
People go and do that. 

1061
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:28,440
We could do wine pong, yeah. 
Something like that. 

1062
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:30,800
I don't know. 
I don't know, John, what do you 

1063
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:33,600
think? 
Would you go to a a wine tasting

1064
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:36,200
of some sort? 
Oh, absolutely. 

1065
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:39,840
You know, but Jim, you said you 
live at Augusta. 

1066
00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:42,040
Like, why don't you have us all 
to the masters here? 

1067
00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:44,560
I mean, come on, that's a that's
a way better option. 

1068
00:53:44,720 --> 00:53:47,960
I definitely would do that, but 
I would not buy people tickets. 

1069
00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:51,000
You know, to buy those tickets 
on Sub Hub, they're going for 

1070
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:55,480
like $1700 a day now, and then 
Sub hub's gonna throw another 

1071
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:59,320
$500 in fees. 
So if you got a ticket, I've got

1072
00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:01,480
like several guest rooms in my 
house. 

1073
00:54:01,480 --> 00:54:04,440
And John, I'd love to have you 
over lot. 

1074
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:09,520
But Jim, you're a Co host of the
world's most popular identity 

1075
00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:12,360
and access management podcast. 
What do you mean you don't get 

1076
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:17,680
tickets to the Masters? 
Well, it's, yeah, I mean, I 

1077
00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:20,520
don't know. 
How can I explain it, man? 

1078
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:24,200
It's a lottery system. 
They have a lottery system. 

1079
00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:27,160
I enter the lottery system every
year, but it's just like the 

1080
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:29,120
regular lottery. 
I'd never win. 

1081
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:33,600
So if you win the lottery, you 
can buy up to four tickets for 

1082
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:37,240
the days that you won at like 90
bucks a ticket. 

1083
00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:41,240
And then when you get in, they 
sell sandwiches for like $1.00. 

1084
00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:45,080
So it's like they do a lot of 
things that are traditions for 

1085
00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:47,240
Augusta. 
The whole thing is about it's a 

1086
00:54:47,240 --> 00:54:51,280
tradition like no other, but if 
you aren't lucky enough to win 

1087
00:54:51,280 --> 00:54:53,240
the lottery, it's just like any 
sporting event. 

1088
00:54:53,240 --> 00:54:57,640
You can go on to StubHub and buy
a ticket at some exorbitant fee.

1089
00:54:57,800 --> 00:54:59,960
So think of how many people win 
this lottery. 

1090
00:55:00,240 --> 00:55:03,880
They get 4 tickets at 90 bucks 
and then go and sell them on 

1091
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:08,160
StubHub for, you know, anywhere 
from 1500 to $2500. 

1092
00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:09,760
Sounds like a pretty good 
investment. 

1093
00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:11,920
It seems rock solid. 
Like, you know. 

1094
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:13,280
Well, here's the here's the 
strategy. 

1095
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:17,720
Just go win the lottery and turn
that $90.00 into, you know, 10 

1096
00:55:17,720 --> 00:55:20,320
times that. 
Yeah, it might as well enter the

1097
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:22,600
lottery every year, whether you 
like golf or not. 

1098
00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:25,480
All right, let's go ahead and 
leave it there with the fact 

1099
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:27,840
that you're not bringing anybody
to the Masters gym. 

1100
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:30,400
I'm very disappointed in you. 
I'm bummed. 

1101
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:31,440
Yeah, I know. 
No kidding, right? 

1102
00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:34,600
Yeah, I'm, I'm taking a I'm 
taking a training course on how 

1103
00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:39,120
to become a better some leader. 
All right, you can find us on 

1104
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:43,560
the web idacpodcast.com or on 
Twitter X, whatever it's called 

1105
00:55:43,720 --> 00:55:46,240
by the time you listen to this 
IDAC podcast. 

1106
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:48,280
Macedon. 
At IDAC Padcot. 

1107
00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:51,280
Yeah, IDAC podcast at infosec 
dot exchange. 

1108
00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:52,920
And of course look for us on 
YouTube. 

1109
00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:55,440
Start to put more content up 
there and hope to do more in the

1110
00:55:55,440 --> 00:55:57,240
future. 
And of course link, you know, 

1111
00:55:57,240 --> 00:56:01,000
catches up on on LinkedIn. 
Send us notes, comments, what 

1112
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:02,800
you like about the show, what 
you don't like about the show. 

1113
00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:04,720
We read them all. 
And for those that have sent 

1114
00:56:04,720 --> 00:56:06,520
stuff in the past, we definitely
appreciate it. 

1115
00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:10,280
We'll have a link to everyone's 
LinkedIn in our show notes so 

1116
00:56:10,280 --> 00:56:14,360
people can ask questions or, you
know, give Jim a hard time about

1117
00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:17,480
the pronunciation of sommelier. 
So with that, we'll go ahead and

1118
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:19,720
leave it for this week. 
Thanks everyone for listening 

1119
00:56:19,720 --> 00:56:21,400
and we'll talk with you all in 
the next one. 

1120
00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:25,200
You've been listening to 
Identity at the Center. 

1121
00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:29,640
We hope you've enjoyed the show.
Make sure to like, rate and 

1122
00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:33,240
review and we'll be back soon. 
But in the meantime, hit the 

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website at 
identity@thecenter.com and find 

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us on Twitter at IDAC Podcast. 
See you next time on Identity at

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the Center.