1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,320 The old perimeter is gone and people are walking from 2 00:00:02,320 --> 00:00:03,920 anywhere. And I think there's more 3 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:07,320 understanding even at the even at the board level and the CEO 4 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:09,760 level that identity is, is critical. 5 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:13,400 They can actually understand it. I think more than themselves. 6 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:15,680 Some other areas of security they, they, they get it like 7 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:19,080 they think that's one of the advantages and also 8 00:00:19,080 --> 00:00:21,680 disadvantages of identity. It meets the end user more than 9 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:26,680 any other category of security. Like every, every employee, 10 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:30,560 every, you know, the CEO logs in and has to do like multi factor 11 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:31,680 authentication and all these things. 12 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:34,840 Like they actually see them as opposed to some of the stuff 13 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:37,320 that like other categories where it's much more behind the 14 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:39,040 scenes. So they understand the 15 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:42,240 importance and the way to put more budgets on it. 16 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:44,920 I, I hear from a lot of companies that identity is now 17 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:47,800 like the number one priority or the number one budget item, 18 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:53,040 which is, which is great because I do believe, and I'm, I'm, I'm 19 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:55,640 biased, but I, I honestly do believe that it is the most 20 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:58,040 important element of security these days. 21 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:09,000 This is identity at the centre if it has anything to do with 22 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:13,640 IAM. This is the go to podcast now 23 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:17,520 your hosts Jim McDonald and Jeff Stedman. 24 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:25,200 Welcome to the Identity of the Center podcast. 25 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:26,480 I'm Jeff, and that's Jim. Hey, Jim. 26 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:28,640 Hey, Jeff, how are you? Not so bad yourself. 27 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:30,800 Good. What do you think of the get up 28 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:32,600 today? I'm waiting for the magic tricks 29 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:35,480 to start. Like is there a a dove going to 30 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:37,160 fly out of your? Why not? 31 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:39,440 I don't have the magician jacket. 32 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:42,440 I've got everything else. I don't have the hat either, but 33 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:44,880 I've got a cowboy hat just right from Texas. 34 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:48,560 Yeah, we're at the Gartner Gartner IM Summit here in Texas. 35 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:51,520 The other thing is you know other magician, maybe dealer at 36 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:53,760 like a casino table with the other option it's. 37 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:57,280 In like 1876 or something like that. 38 00:01:57,360 --> 00:01:59,200 That's right, you've seen the movie A Tombstone. 39 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:02,760 You know you're sitting there and Whiter walks in and takes 40 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:05,720 control of things. Yeah, yeah, no, actually I've 41 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:08,880 been watching the series, Deadwood began, which I remember 42 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:11,560 the first time I watched it, like thinking, Oh my God, that's 43 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:14,800 so violent. And this was TV for 20 years ago 44 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:16,280 and now? Game of Thrones had not yet 45 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:17,680 aired at that point. Yeah, yeah. 46 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:20,560 No, we've been hardened. Well, you look like you belong 47 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:23,200 in the Deadwood sort of environment, right? 48 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:25,120 You got the beard, you got the long hair. 49 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:27,040 I could see you absolutely with a cowboy hat. 50 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:28,480 You pull that off for sure. All right. 51 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:31,280 I'm going to wear one tomorrow, so we're going to set for that. 52 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:33,240 That'll be our first episode of the year. 53 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:34,560 This is going to be our last session. 54 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:38,160 So this is the year. Last episode of 2024 and it's 55 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:40,040 been a ride. Another big year for us. 56 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:41,640 I'm sure we're going to do a lot of things. 57 00:02:41,640 --> 00:02:44,360 We're going to talk about a bunch of different things today. 58 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:47,040 But yeah, this is it for us. And we're going to take a couple 59 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:48,720 weeks off and then, yeah, come back. 60 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:51,320 I think first or second week of January I can't move up the 61 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:52,680 schedule. Makes sense. 62 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:55,280 One last conference, one last episode. 63 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:57,480 So I think we should jump into it. 64 00:02:57,480 --> 00:02:58,360 What do you think? Yeah. 65 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:00,520 So I mentioned we're at the Gartner, I am Summit and 66 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:02,480 definitely want to give a shout out to RSM, the ones that are 67 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:04,840 helping make as possible. Also shout out to Silver Fort. 68 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:08,200 We are in their suite right now. Sweet, sweet, sweet suite. 69 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:09,840 And we're sitting here with Hed Kubetz. 70 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:11,680 He's the CEO and Co founder of Silver for It. 71 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:13,880 Welcome back to the show, Head. Thank you. 72 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:17,040 Great to be here and will be an honor to be here for the last 73 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:19,480 episode of the week of the year. Just of the year, we're going to 74 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:23,560 keep going until next year. It was so we actually met the 75 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:25,800 first time at a Gartner a couple times ago. 76 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:28,400 So it would have been Gartner. I think at the end of 2022. 77 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:32,560 We did Episode 166, we talked with you, we learned more about 78 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:34,480 any threat detection response at ATR. 79 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:37,000 We're definitely going to get into probably saw that and then 80 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:39,680 more today, but definitely encourage people to go back and 81 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:42,480 check out episode 166. We're not going to make you 82 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:45,320 relive your, you know, tell us how you got that any story, 83 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:47,720 people go back and listen out, but why don't we start with, 84 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:49,840 hey, what's new? Like silver fork has been the 85 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:52,320 news, you know, a couple times over the last year and a half or 86 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:55,280 so, two years almost. What's new with silver fork? 87 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:56,400 What's been going on in your room? 88 00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:58,360 Yeah, there's been a lot going on. 89 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:02,880 I mean we're lucky to to really see huge course in this time. 90 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:05,120 So you know, and a lot of exciting things. 91 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:09,000 So we just announced a couple of weeks ago that we acquired the 92 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:12,240 company for the first time, which for me personally and for 93 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:13,960 the company is you know, a big step. 94 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:18,120 We acquired a company called Resonate that is focused on 95 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:22,560 cloud identity security. Great company, great people. 96 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:25,360 And now, you know, we're really kind of integrating the 97 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:29,240 platforms together. So that was some recent really 98 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:31,880 exciting news. Earlier in the year we we 99 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:35,440 announced a big funding zone. So we raised the CSD pound of 100 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:38,320 $116 million. That's it. 101 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:43,760 So yeah, that's, you know, we had to figure out now what do we 102 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:45,880 do with all this money? Like we need to build a big 103 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:47,640 company I guess. You need a podcast. 104 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:51,920 Yeah, yeah. It's, it's, it's exciting. 105 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:56,200 So a lot of things going on. And then just today we announced 106 00:04:56,200 --> 00:05:00,160 a new product that we that we released on privileged access 107 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:04,080 security. So really a new way to secure 108 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:08,680 how, you know, privilege access kind of fit is protected across 109 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:11,400 all the different environments. So there's the lot going. 110 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:13,600 And sounds like it. And there's a lot of money 111 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:16,480 pouring into the space. So I'm curious 'cause you were 112 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:18,280 kind of talking before I get recorded, like do people really 113 00:05:18,280 --> 00:05:21,080 care about the entrepreneurial side of, of identity? 114 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:23,560 I'm interested in it. So I'm going to ask questions 115 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:25,000 anyway. So whether or not people 116 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:28,240 listening are interested, I want to get into it a little bit. 117 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:31,160 You know, having founded and run this business and now you've 118 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:35,800 made an acquisition to resonate, I guess what is it like to start 119 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:38,720 something up like that? And 2nd follow up question is 120 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:41,200 there's a lot of money being raised yourself one of them. 121 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:45,360 What are VCs looking for when it comes to products in the space? 122 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:47,320 Because it seems like identity is so hot, right? 123 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:48,760 Now where it's become a lean house festive. 124 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:51,880 Yeah. So first of all, it wasn't 125 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:55,200 always hot. I have to say, you know, I 126 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:57,040 probably had a different experience than what 127 00:05:57,040 --> 00:05:59,680 entrepreneurs that start today probably see. 128 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:05,040 And, you know, that was how do. But I guess I'm also thankful 129 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:07,440 for what kind of how it helped us mature. 130 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:13,880 When we started eight years ago, it was a pretty tough 131 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:16,000 experience. I mean, we went to a lot of VCs 132 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:17,480 to talk about what we want to do. 133 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:20,040 We want to, you know, do something in identity security. 134 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:24,560 We had a couple of ideas and the reaction we got from almost 135 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:27,680 every VC was that's just not an interesting category. 136 00:06:28,840 --> 00:06:30,400 Identity. What do you mean like 137 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:33,600 authentication? And it's like, isn't that like 138 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:36,080 20 years ago? That was already done. 139 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:39,320 Companies, you know, already have that and we were trying to 140 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:44,160 explain that yeah, the the they did that, but then look at how 141 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:47,120 many attacks of still using compromised identities. 142 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:49,800 I mean, it's only glory. So something must be missing, 143 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:51,960 right? And we want to solve that. 144 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:56,000 Luckily, we were able to find someone who who actually 145 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:58,280 believed in that, but it wasn't easy. 146 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:02,920 And you know, if you want to know a bit about the, the 147 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:06,320 entrepreneurial experience, that's like a really tough part 148 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:10,920 of it, like hearing no so many times and having people doubt 149 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:15,000 what you do and is it even worth your time and obviously their 150 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:16,840 money. It's tough. 151 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:21,760 And, and one of the biggest tasks I think is you have to get 152 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:24,960 up after every time that someone tells you it's not a good idea, 153 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:29,160 it's not the way to work. You need to somehow get yourself 154 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:33,680 back to, to optimism, you know, because that's kind of the key 155 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:36,120 to, to building a startup. You need to be optimistic and 156 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:39,080 you need to get back on your feet every time. 157 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:42,720 And luckily we did. We, you know, got up enough 158 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:46,200 times to the point for now, it's actually, it's happening and 159 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:48,600 it's growing and it's, it's, it's doing really well. 160 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:53,440 But I, I don't forget that beginning it was a much 161 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:55,640 different time. Now it is getting very hard 162 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:57,680 though. So I'm, you know, glad. 163 00:07:57,720 --> 00:07:58,840 I think it's, it's the right thing. 164 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:03,840 I I think when you walk around the exhibitor hall at this 165 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:07,240 conference, you just, I mean, I'm blown away by how many 166 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:09,160 start-ups there are. Yeah. 167 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:12,080 Side by side with the big players in the space. 168 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:14,800 What was your impression? Yeah, there are a lot of 169 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:16,960 start-ups. I think it's a very good thing 170 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:20,400 because the innovation will mostly come from the start-ups. 171 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:22,640 I mean, you, you hear about some of the big vendors trying to do 172 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:26,320 new things. It, it can happen to a degree, 173 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:30,040 but I think that just like in any other category, the, the 174 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:32,120 real disruptive things will come from start-ups. 175 00:08:33,039 --> 00:08:36,559 They just have a better ability to take the risk. 176 00:08:36,919 --> 00:08:39,720 You know, I, I used to open a big up and I'm so many people 177 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:43,480 know that, you know, even if you come up with new ideas, the 178 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:46,960 ability of a large company to just throw away everything 179 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:50,040 they've done and, and go for this whole new approach, it's 180 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:51,360 hard. You know, they, they need to 181 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:55,640 meet the quarterly goals and it's just harder to do when you 182 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:57,200 start a company, you could take a huge risk. 183 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:00,200 And you know, I remember we, we thought, hey, you know, either 184 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:02,400 this will work and we'll have something amazing, or it will 185 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:04,760 not. And you know, let's fail fast, 186 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:07,880 you know, and figure that it's not the right thing and go do 187 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:10,240 another thing. That's a risk that you can only 188 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:13,720 take as a, as a startup. So a lot of startups are now 189 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:17,960 kind of paving the road in, in, in many areas of identity 190 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:23,320 security, which is great. I mean, we are kind of lucky to 191 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:26,520 be in that sweet spot. I I feel between being still a 192 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:29,040 start up that can move fast and innovate and build. 193 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:32,640 But also we're big enough at this point that we can really, 194 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:35,720 you know, execute when we have a big customer base and we're 195 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:38,240 trying to enjoy both worlds for as long as we can before we 196 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:42,160 become a, a big corporate. And I think at least, at least 197 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:44,120 like now, it feels like it is in that sweet spot. 198 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:48,240 How do you defend against that position of, OK, that spirit of 199 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:52,680 innovation and entrepreneurism versus, you know, big company 200 00:09:52,680 --> 00:09:55,360 and very slow to react and I got to imagine that would probably 201 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:57,840 keep you up at night. Yeah, it's one of the things 202 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:00,840 that's gonna be the most to to lose that innovation. 203 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:04,720 So we invest in it a lot. I think that especially this 204 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:08,680 year, I think everything that is happening in the space, all 205 00:10:08,680 --> 00:10:10,400 these new start-ups that have these really cool new 206 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:12,720 technologies, what kind of a wake up call for us. 207 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:16,440 We need to be ahead of the market not only because we we 208 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:19,000 are getting the, you know, all the traction in the, the big 209 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:20,760 customers, but also in, in innovation. 210 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:24,000 So this year we've actually innovative more than ever 211 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:25,840 before, more than in the early years we've had. 212 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:31,760 And we built, I mean it across some organizational adjustments, 213 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:34,320 right. So we built really good 214 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:39,920 innovation team and we divided our R&D into smaller teams that 215 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:43,040 each focus on a different port. So there's a team building ITDR, 216 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:45,520 there's a team building, you know, privilege access security. 217 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:48,040 It was a team building, not human identity, security, 218 00:10:48,680 --> 00:10:53,920 ISPMMFA, all these different things now have smaller teams 219 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:55,720 that can operate more like a startup. 220 00:10:56,400 --> 00:11:00,240 Because what happens in a big or even medium sized companies, 221 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:03,120 you, you get this huge R&D organization at some point and 222 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:05,920 every person does the tiny piece of it. 223 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:08,680 So they use some of the motivation and, and definitely 224 00:11:08,680 --> 00:11:12,920 the innovation by dividing it and, and keeping small teams 225 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:16,320 that act more like startups. And, and if you manage to build 226 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:21,720 the platform as a tool platform, I mean kind of shared 227 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:24,400 infrastructure that all these products can operate on, but 228 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:27,400 they don't need to worry about it. 229 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:29,600 You know, like in all of the enterprise features, I mean, you 230 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:33,760 need, you know, you need to be with security and compliance and 231 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:36,240 scale all these things. If you if you manage to push 232 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:40,400 them down to a certain platform and build all these products on 233 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:43,400 top, you can still keep those as, as almost like small 234 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:46,440 start-ups. And we've managed to to do it 235 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:50,960 this year, which was a big organizational effort, but I 236 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:53,480 think it was worth it. And now we're moving very fast. 237 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:56,840 And still, you know, I see start-ups that are doing really 238 00:11:56,840 --> 00:11:59,280 cool things and I think it's great. 239 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:03,960 I mean, we all, I think we've been enough time in this market 240 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:06,000 to know by now that it's not a bad thing. 241 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:10,360 You know, I think that it was much worse being back then at 242 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:12,480 the time when nobody thought it's even interesting, right. 243 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:15,680 So I actually prefer to have a lot of start-ups then pushing us 244 00:12:15,680 --> 00:12:18,680 to innovate, pushing us forward, pushing the industry forward 245 00:12:18,680 --> 00:12:22,600 over, you know, if you look five years ago that nobody thought 246 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:26,920 it's even that interesting you. Mentioned identity security a 247 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:30,520 few times and as I walked in vendor hall, it's like identity 248 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:33,480 security, identity security. And it's like, yeah, under that 249 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:36,720 company, they have been doing the same thing for five years, 250 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:39,320 but now they're calling it identity security. 251 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:42,600 Is that just that's just what happens, Just like zero trust. 252 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:44,880 I mean, everybody's now zero trust. 253 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:47,080 And then that's not popular anymore. 254 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:50,000 Now it's identity security. I mean, I think identity 255 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:51,520 security has a real meaning, right? 256 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:53,880 So yeah, in your mind, what is that real meaning? 257 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:56,920 I, I think that identity security is, is one of the best 258 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:00,480 things that can happen to this industry is that, that 259 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:04,920 platformization, let's call it, because if you think about the, 260 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:09,280 the history of identity security for many years, it was just a 261 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:11,520 feature of the identity infrastructure. 262 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:16,880 I mean, we talk about IAM, right, a lot IAM, which to me is 263 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:20,120 the identity infrastructure, you know, it manages your identities 264 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:24,000 and, and it's, it's not really a, a security offering. 265 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:26,480 I mean, to me it's more like, you know, it's related to 266 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:32,400 productivity to, to IT security was always a feature in that. 267 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:36,360 So if you had like Active Directory or Octa or Entrac, you 268 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:38,320 might have some security features in there. 269 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:43,000 I think that what's happening now is finally these security 270 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:46,280 features are decoupling on the infrastructure to become the own 271 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:50,600 stand alone layer that that can operate on top of all of these 272 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:53,080 identity infrastructure solutions. 273 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:55,920 And that's really important because as long as there are 274 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:58,600 features, they only see their own island. 275 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:05,840 If you think about it, I can log in to Okta and I, I failed the 276 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:07,680 authentication, right? It's not me, right? 277 00:14:07,680 --> 00:14:13,200 I failed the MFAI can still then go and log in to enter or to the 278 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:16,040 onto MAD and nobody will stop it because those solutions don't 279 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:18,880 even talk to each other. It's it's all islands that are 280 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:20,720 are looking at security as a silo. 281 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:24,280 And I think that only by decoupling security from it and 282 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:27,040 creating a layer that understands the whole picture, 283 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:29,880 all these silos, all these islands, you can really do 284 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:32,640 security effectively. If you think about it, it 285 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:35,440 already happened in other categories of security. 286 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:39,600 Think about the cloud security. In the early days, you were 287 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:42,720 buying cloud security from AWS and Azure and Google. 288 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:45,480 And after a while people understood it doesn't make 289 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:47,760 sense, you need it to operate on all the clouds. 290 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:53,040 So then companies like Whiz came and created a cloud security 291 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:55,120 platform. You don't buy it anymore from 292 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:57,920 the cloud providers. Same for Android, like you don't 293 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:01,880 buy Android security from Lenovo and Apple and Dell, you might 294 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:04,840 form a company that can work on all the endpoints, all the types 295 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:07,200 of endpoints. I think the same is finally now 296 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:09,720 happening to identity. And that is to me identity 297 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:13,440 security, it's a stand alone layer that can operate on top of 298 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:16,080 all the islands of identity infrastructure. 299 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:19,920 And that's the only way that we can ever, I think make this 300 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:22,760 effective and and really be ahead of the of the attackers. 301 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:27,040 And it just took longer in identity, but I think it's 302 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:28,520 finally happening, which is really exciting. 303 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:33,880 Is Identity a platform in your mind, or is it a component of 304 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:37,160 something else? Identity security or in general 305 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:38,240 identity? Identity. 306 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:41,320 I think it's absolutely a platform. 307 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:45,720 I think that identity is one of the biggest elements of 308 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:50,360 security. And also ITI think that in many 309 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:52,840 ways identity is becoming the most important element. 310 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:56,760 If you think about it now that everybody's walking from 311 00:15:56,760 --> 00:16:00,400 anywhere and they use devices that are not necessarily the 312 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:03,600 company's device. I mean, if I can log in from a 313 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:09,120 cafe in Thailand using my device, and as long as I prove 314 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:12,720 who I am, I'm part of your organization, your virtual 315 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:17,040 network, it means that the identity is pretty much the the 316 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:20,720 only remaining line of defence. So I think that the identity is 317 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:24,080 becoming, I mean at, at the centre right there's. 318 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:25,840 A little bit of a leading question, yeah. 319 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:27,760 Yeah. You did a webinar recently with 320 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:31,520 Jim around that idea of identity being at the side of security. 321 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:33,680 Oh, it's very true. I I think that is becoming the 322 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:35,800 biggest piece really. And I think that people finally 323 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:37,800 recognize it. So what is the difference 324 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,720 between I AM and Identity security? 325 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:44,840 So I am. To me is, is the infrastructure, 326 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:51,120 it's managing the identities. You know, like when you start in 327 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:53,160 a company, they need to create an identity for you. 328 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:56,640 And it's almost like an an IT of an agile feature. 329 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:00,360 I mean, it doesn't mean necessarily security. 330 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,080 There's a different question of how do you secure that identity? 331 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:04,599 How do you prevent someone from stealing it? 332 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:08,760 But the identity itself is not a security element. 333 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:12,280 It's just, you know, it's just like saying that your device or, 334 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:15,800 or the data or the cloud, our our security, no, the, the 335 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:19,079 pieces of the, the, you know, the infrastructure, the digital 336 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:22,119 infrastructure that you have. And then there's a question of 337 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:25,640 how do you secure it? So I think that the IAM the 338 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:31,880 infrastructure is something that includes single sign on and it 339 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:35,160 includes like on boarding and off boarding of employees. 340 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:39,200 That includes what do people have permissions to access? 341 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:43,360 I think it also includes a password less authentication, 342 00:17:43,360 --> 00:17:45,800 which many people view as a security feature. 343 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:49,280 I I don't think so. I think that, I mean, obviously 344 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:51,920 password less involves authenticity with some second 345 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:56,280 factor that's security, yes. But removing the first factor, 346 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:58,600 that alone is not a security functionality, It's actually a 347 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:02,000 user experience functionality. So I think a lot of these things 348 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:04,280 are to me part of the identity infrastructure. 349 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:08,240 That's what companies like Octa and Bing and Microsoft are doing 350 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:12,160 now. Security again was always mixed 351 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:14,080 up with that. So it's almost hard to separate 352 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:16,760 the Bitcoin. But I think that we can have a 353 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:21,960 think, a discussion around what is what is not really part of 354 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:25,840 that, what should be a security functionality that sits on top. 355 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:29,680 Some things are obvious like ITDR, right? 356 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:35,480 I think privilege access security is part of it and you 357 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:38,680 know, non human identity security, which is now a very 358 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:41,960 hot category, stuff like that. But there's also questions 359 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:47,720 around areas that might need to almost like kind of split IGA, 360 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:51,520 for example. Is that an infrastructure 361 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:53,440 feature? Because some of it is like like 362 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:55,360 onboarding and offboarding users, things like that? 363 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:59,360 Or is it a security feature because achieving least 364 00:18:59,360 --> 00:19:01,360 privileged for them, making sure people don't have too much 365 00:19:01,360 --> 00:19:04,160 access, that's a security goal. So I think. 366 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,240 Here's also the appliance aspect accessories, and that's really 367 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:10,480 where the IGA field started was, you know, we got tired of 368 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:14,240 sending spreadsheets around and so the idea was to, OK, well, 369 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:17,520 how do we comply with our socks or HIPAA or other things like 370 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:19,800 that too. But I think that the whole 371 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:23,200 market will need to go to this evolution now, because the only 372 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:27,920 way to do security effectively is if you if you separate it 373 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:30,440 from the infrastructure, because the infrastructure people have a 374 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,840 few different solutions. They have active director of 375 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:36,080 them, they have been Octa in the cloud. 376 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:38,160 They have maybe some SAS applications that manage 377 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:40,880 identities over the, you know, the cloud infrastructure. 378 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:44,800 Some people have more than that because they acquire the company 379 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:47,680 and that company is using Ping, So now they have that too. 380 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:53,240 If all those islands will have their own local security, again, 381 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:56,080 it will be as if we would have different endpoint security for 382 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:58,520 every type of laptop. Doesn't make any sense. 383 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:00,880 So we have two separate security. 384 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:02,960 And that is to me, identity security. 385 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:06,120 It's that layer on top that does the security that requires the 386 00:20:06,120 --> 00:20:09,720 overall context, you know, like understanding all the the 387 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:12,840 identities and all the access and then not only understanding 388 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:16,080 it, but also enforcing security policies. 389 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:19,560 I think that has to separate and that is identity security. 390 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:22,240 I'm actually very glad that more people are using that too. 391 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:26,320 I do feel like I walked around the that so, so many people are 392 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:28,400 saying it. The outcome is finally saying 393 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:31,680 it, which they told me for years that they, they, they don't 394 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:33,520 agree that there's such a thing. Now they're saying it. 395 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:36,600 Some of the analysts told me. Yeah, we, we understand that the 396 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:39,120 like this is happening. And I don't think, you know, 397 00:20:39,120 --> 00:20:41,920 today. I, I think that the people have 398 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:43,000 spoken. Yeah. 399 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:46,400 So we just which is very good. And it took a while, but I think 400 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,560 it it's very important, not just for us as a company. 401 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:51,640 I honestly believe that it's important for the industry if we 402 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:53,840 want to stay ahead of the of the threats. 403 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:59,640 It's, it's, it's not going to be possible to handle the the 404 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:03,320 evolving threats and, and they are evolving fast and this is 405 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:08,880 even before AI fully kicked in. We will not have a chance if we 406 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:12,560 don't really start taking treating identity security as a 407 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:16,040 as an overall thing and not as a local feature. 408 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:20,040 Yeah. So you presented this morning at 409 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:22,880 the summit. I think one of the main themes 410 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:29,080 that you talked about was this idea of legacy IT and modern IT 411 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:33,000 coexisting. I mean, I have a friend who made 412 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:37,200 the observation, you know this, the modern CIO has one foot in 413 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,040 the past and one foot in the future. 414 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:42,560 So they're thinking as like, OK, well, from an identity security 415 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:46,080 standpoint, what do they need to secure the past of the future? 416 00:21:46,360 --> 00:21:48,920 Obviously they need to secure both. 417 00:21:49,360 --> 00:21:54,280 So given that context, you know, you've got to secure both. 418 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:57,680 How do you do that from an identity standpoint? 419 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,960 You think about the legacy platforms, they were built to 420 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:06,000 secure the on Prem networking. When I say legacy is not just 421 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:09,480 mainframes, but it, it's, you know, could be modern 422 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,480 applications or running an on Prem environment. 423 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:17,240 Now you have applications that you're hosting in platform as a 424 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:21,480 service or infrastructure as a service, as well as, you know, 425 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,520 SAS applications. The deployment models are 426 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:27,200 evolving, so you have all these things going on. 427 00:22:27,360 --> 00:22:31,560 How do you secure it all? How does the modern CSO or CIO 428 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:34,360 look at this problem? Yeah, it's a big problem, 429 00:22:34,360 --> 00:22:36,240 honestly. And, and it's getting even more 430 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:38,840 complex when you think not just about applications, but think 431 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:42,720 that companies have, you know, databases and, and servers and 432 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:47,040 file systems and OT environments like those, all these other 433 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:50,480 things that are not even web applications and use all kinds 434 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:52,960 of protocols to, to authenticate to. 435 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:57,720 I think that we have to solve both because attackers are 436 00:22:57,720 --> 00:22:59,800 looking at this as as one attack surface. 437 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:03,040 I mean, we think, OK, we'll, we'll protect these applications 438 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:04,720 and not these. So we are half protected. 439 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,280 No, you're, you're 0 protected because an attacker can choose 440 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:12,720 where to, to log into. So, you know, we've seen a lot 441 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:15,640 of attacks where an attacker will compromise the weakest 442 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:19,440 link, which is often the legacy, the on Prem, you know, by just 443 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:21,560 taking advantage of how vulnerable and Active Directory 444 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,640 is and you know, getting user credentials over there with 445 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:29,240 brute forcing there or Kerberos thing or all kinds of thing. 446 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,800 Now once you do that, because most organisations sync the 447 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:36,120 password between AD to the cloud, you actually have the 448 00:23:36,120 --> 00:23:38,520 cloud password now because it's the same password. 449 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:42,640 So we think about those as two different islands, but you know, 450 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:44,640 if I compromise one of them, I compromise the other. 451 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,880 And, and that's something that I think people understand more and 452 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,760 more. Now it's it's even more complex 453 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:56,040 than that because even if you secured some of the ways to 454 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,600 authenticate to the legacy systems, let's say that you 455 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:02,040 deploy a multi factor authentication portal or your 456 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:05,720 servers, right? And it protects the, the windows 457 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,400 login screen, because that's what these agents often do. 458 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,440 You install don't want to name the vendors, right, But all the 459 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:15,120 think about all the common MFA vendors and now everyone logging 460 00:24:15,120 --> 00:24:18,400 into that server is getting MFA on the on the login screen 461 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:22,240 instead of just a password. But as an attacker, I can choose 462 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,200 a different way to log in. I can log in with remote 463 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:28,640 PowerShell, you know, I can log into a shared folder on that 464 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:30,240 server. I can log in with so many other 465 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:33,040 tools that it's it's, it's a joke. 466 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:35,200 You know, it's like you lock the front door but the window is 467 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,480 open. And I think that people 468 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:40,000 understand more and more now that if you don't secure 469 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:44,200 identities everywhere and all of the access, it's meaningless 470 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,320 because the attacker get to choose how they log into your 471 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:49,200 system. And they're not going after the 472 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:51,520 the shrimp tour. They're not, they prefer the 473 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:53,160 command line tools, right? Yeah. 474 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,800 We, we spoke to a company that got breached and they were using 475 00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:01,560 one of the top like, you know, MFA and, and and, you know, and 476 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:05,080 Pam solution and they deployed everywhere. 477 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,320 You know, it was on all the servers and all the accounts. 478 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,800 Then the attacker just went in and he was using one of these 479 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:14,120 alternative interfaces, which attackers use anyway, and every 480 00:25:14,120 --> 00:25:17,560 ransomer is using anyway. I don't even think that's the 481 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:19,360 sad part. I don't even think the attacker 482 00:25:19,360 --> 00:25:22,160 knew that there was an MFA solution in place. 483 00:25:22,360 --> 00:25:26,080 It's not that they knew it and tried to avoid it, They just 484 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:30,000 didn't even know because the way they log in, I mean, the way 485 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,040 ransom was spread and that's the reason it was CLI. 486 00:25:33,120 --> 00:25:35,520 Exactly, Exactly. It's with command line tools 487 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,360 anyway. So if we don't secure those 488 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,680 things, which is probably the hardest, the fact that we have 489 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:48,000 MFA on our web applications or RBP or VPN, it's almost 490 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,760 meaningless. And, and that's why we really 491 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:54,800 believe that you need to cover all the, the darkest corners of 492 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,680 the IAM infrastructure. And there is a way to do it 493 00:25:57,680 --> 00:25:59,880 again, we'll, maybe we'll talk, you know, in in the future. 494 00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:03,160 I don't want to go too deep into the technology, but there are 495 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,280 ways to do it. It's just, it took actually 496 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,720 investing a long time in, in understanding how do things even 497 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:11,320 work. And you know, why do you do it? 498 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:14,600 And it's, as I said before, it's not sexy. 499 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,880 So when we went to, to VCs to talk about that, you want to do 500 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:22,760 what you want to protect the, the legacy. 501 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:27,200 So now obviously we also protect the cloud. 502 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:29,840 And with the resident acquisition, we, we do even more 503 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,160 and more though, but when we started, we only focused on 504 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:37,800 those dark corners. It's not will investors want to 505 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:39,640 focus, but it is will companies have a problem. 506 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,240 Yeah, it's interesting. You know, part of my thinking 507 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:46,760 when I asked the question was thinking of that legacy 508 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,680 environment. It in other words, on Prem 509 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:55,080 environment, organizations have been investing in identity 510 00:26:55,080 --> 00:27:00,360 solutions for that environment. Clouds like obviously 511 00:27:00,360 --> 00:27:04,200 overwhelming and it's been overwhelming for a long time for 512 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:06,920 a lot of organizations. There are still organizations 513 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,720 that are, you know, kind of beginning their journey. 514 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:17,760 But my wonder is, OK, so as AC so or the CIO is my approach to 515 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,760 this is the right approach to say, take those platforms and 516 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:26,080 try to solve for my hybrid situation? 517 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:30,200 Or do I need different tool? So I, I think that until 518 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,200 recently you'd needed different tours. 519 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,160 I think that what's finally happening is, is consolidation. 520 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:37,080 I mean, we are part of it. I think other companies are 521 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,160 trying to achieve the same. Hopefully protecting the dead is 522 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,080 end to end. I think that's how you have to 523 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,200 do it. So on them and cloud, humans and 524 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,600 machines, privileged and non privileged just end to end. 525 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:52,160 Because if you don't look at it end to end, you're, you're 526 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:55,000 missing the, you know, you're missing some of the, the 527 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:57,960 critical areas. I mean, and then you know is 528 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:01,400 again the attackers will find the the blind spot. 529 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:04,240 Well, let's expand the question is so we talked about the one 530 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,440 foot in the past, one foot in the future as kind of like this 531 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:11,360 major divide and they just reference another major divide 532 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:15,680 and it's as far as an identity topic could be right now, which 533 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:19,600 is non human identities. So we kind of we know how to 534 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:23,320 manage human identities. We've been doing it for so long 535 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:25,920 and we've been ignoring the non human identities. 536 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:28,560 You know, I'm part of that. I'm guilty too. 537 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:31,600 It's not that we didn't know it was important. 538 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:33,800 It's that we didn't have the tools. 539 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,680 Yeah. And like, I think it is that it 540 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,520 is one of the biggest problems. So I think it it makes sense 541 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:42,560 that a lot of companies are trying to focus in it out. 542 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:47,120 I agree that the main issues that people didn't think it's 543 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,120 possible to protect them for a long time. 544 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,680 Even if you think about the older types like service 545 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,120 accounts in Active Directory, they've been around for decades, 546 00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:58,480 right? But people didn't think there 547 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:00,240 was an effective way to secure them. 548 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,800 I think most organisations will try to do that with Pam tools 549 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:07,520 and with Pam tools, you, you have to change the password. 550 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:10,200 That's kind of how Pam works, which I think is a pretty old 551 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,320 approach, but that's what we had for for the last decades. 552 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,720 And when you change a password on a non human identity, it 553 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:21,520 breaks things in in many cases it breaks applications because 554 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:25,440 they have them, you know, they have hard coded somewhere in the 555 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:27,400 script or somewhere in the application those those the 556 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,840 password. So I think people got scared of 557 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,880 doing it like they tried. I spoke to CSO, tried to do it 558 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,560 once with these type of tools and took down a whole data 559 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,400 centre and then he stopped the you know. 560 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,120 That's a very real fear. I mean, a lot of organizations 561 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,280 struggle with that fear is what if? 562 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,080 What if I changed that password? What if I shut down that 563 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:50,480 account? They know it exists, and yet 564 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:52,120 they still let it sit there. Yeah. 565 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:57,440 And when we came out with our solution to protect service 566 00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:01,040 accounts, I think it was 3-4 years ago it was. 567 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:03,920 We thought it's just a small thing like we thought one 568 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,520 customer suggested today, if you can do this for humans, why 569 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:08,080 don't you do the same for non human? 570 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:10,640 And we did. And we thought it was going to 571 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:12,600 be a a feature. We didn't even we didn't even 572 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:14,000 charge money for it in the beginning. 573 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:18,440 And it became one of our best products because it it is a huge 574 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:20,200 problem and it takes a different approach. 575 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:24,200 You can't just try to use the the tools that use for human 576 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:28,000 identities on it. I think that the best approach 577 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,200 with non even identities is obviously visibility is a big 578 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:33,040 part of it. You need to discover them, see 579 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:35,600 what they're doing, who owns them, where they're being used. 580 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:37,600 That's a huge part of it. People don't even know. 581 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:39,920 That the kind of the governance of it. 582 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,120 Yeah, they don't even know. And they don't even know that 583 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:44,520 some of them are being abused for completely different. 584 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:49,040 Like, you know, somebody created the service account once and now 585 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,240 they're just using it for 10 different applications. 586 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:55,840 That would never. Both people use their personal 587 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,040 account to one application instead of asking for a service 588 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:01,240 bar. It happens a lot. 589 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,480 I think I, I, I told that story in the past. 590 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:09,320 I don't remember well. Well, we had a, a customer that 591 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:13,240 we were, we were installing our product for and we need the 592 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,440 service account just, you know, like regular, you know, domain 593 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:18,960 use of service card in order to, to run our product. 594 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:22,800 And, and he said, Hey, can you go create a service card for us? 595 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:25,440 And he just said, no, no, just let's use my on account. 596 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:29,280 It's like, that's what you invited us to fix, like. 597 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:33,160 And it's, it's so built into the way people work that he didn't 598 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,440 even realise that he's offering this to the vendor that came 599 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:38,200 here to fix this problem. Yeah. 600 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,280 So people do it all the time. So visibility is a big part of 601 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,240 it and finding all these these bad, you know, behaviours. 602 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:46,680 But then the second part is how do you secure them? 603 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:50,280 So all they think puzzles is, is sometimes the light. 604 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:54,320 And so usually it's not. So you need to figure out how do 605 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:59,680 you basically prevent any use of this identity outside of what it 606 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,400 needs to do. So if you built a non even 607 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:06,520 identity that only needs to connect from A to B every two 608 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:11,160 hours, let's somehow lock it down to only be able to do that. 609 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,560 So if somebody will try to use it anywhere else, it should be 610 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:15,560 unusable and it should trigger that. 611 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:20,200 Very narrowly defined scope. Yeah, that is all it can do, but 612 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,120 it's difficult to do sometimes when, you know, I'm going to 613 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:25,320 play the the advocate for the customer. 614 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,680 And some on the security side is I've asked security vendors, you 615 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:31,360 know, a lot of times they'll say, oh, we need a domain admin 616 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:33,080 account and they just leave it at that. 617 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,360 OK, well, you push back on that and you say, OK, well, what do 618 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:37,880 you really need? Yeah. 619 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:40,480 And being able to have that conversation in a way to say, 620 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:43,000 OK, we don't really do domain admin, which you need are these 621 00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,040 three permissions and a lot of security vendors take the easy 622 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:47,160 way out and just to just just just give. 623 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:50,440 Yes, I agree. And, and, and not only security 624 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:52,960 vendors, the the things security vendors are actually more well 625 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,240 within some other IT vendors that just ask for it no matter 626 00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:59,280 what. I think that part of it is also 627 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,160 look at all the identities you have today, look at what 628 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,800 permissions they have and look at what are they actually doing. 629 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:06,800 And let's correlate that. Let's correlate that 630 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:10,040 continuously to see that, you know, this account has the 631 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:13,840 permission as to do X things, but it's only doing a small 632 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:17,640 portion of that and all the time let's automatically recommend to 633 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:21,000 reduce what they can do. So it's, you know, it's just in 634 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,280 time access, but it's also just enough access that we need to 635 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:28,040 achieve all of these things. I don't think on you to people 636 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:29,200 like the fact that you should do it. 637 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,360 I think that they just didn't know that it's possible. 638 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:35,560 And I think that vendors kind of stayed in the comfort zone for a 639 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:37,280 very long time, kind of doing the same thing. 640 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,640 And now finally, there's almost like a renaissance in eternity 641 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:42,840 security. But think about it, for how long 642 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:46,240 did we just have the same port, the same technologies, while 643 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:50,840 other categories of security got to have such amazing innovation, 644 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:54,280 you know? And I envied that. 645 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:56,840 Like, I looked at some other categories of security where 646 00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:58,520 there was so many new things going on. 647 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:02,920 And in identity, it seemed like nobody wants to do anything 648 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,680 differently than how they did it for the last decades. 649 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:08,480 Now the finally is willingness to do it. 650 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,760 And the technology is the, I mean, the technology is, is 651 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:13,400 possible. I mean, if people are willing 652 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:15,760 to, to consider doing things in a better way. 653 00:34:16,159 --> 00:34:20,000 The technology is the. I think it's evolving very fast 654 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,199 now. Yeah, you said something scary 655 00:34:22,199 --> 00:34:27,719 and I think this is part of the inertia, which was OK. 656 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:32,560 The existing tools can can't do what we need something to do for 657 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:36,520 non humans. Layer on top of that, they're 658 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:39,760 probably more complex to matters than people. 659 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:43,239 You mentioned governance, then you also have secrets 660 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:47,280 management, authentication, monitoring. 661 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:51,480 So layer all that on. You've got your IGA Pam single 662 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,159 signed on. So you have all these features 663 00:34:55,199 --> 00:34:58,720 on top of the fact that it's not solved. 664 00:34:58,720 --> 00:35:03,840 So now it's a more complex population and I think you said 665 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:08,000 in your in your talk, another thing that I agreed to it, which 666 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,160 is that the non human identities need to be tied off to people. 667 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:13,640 So great. That's part of that, that 668 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,800 solution. So now you can't use your your 669 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:21,880 tools, your, your existing tools can't do the job and you need to 670 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:26,640 solve multiple tiers of functionality in order to really 671 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:28,440 get your arms around this population. 672 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,960 It's not an overnight solution. It's not going to be solved by, 673 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,000 you know, waving a magic wand. It's very hard there, I have to 674 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:39,040 say, like as someone who's, you know, I feel like we're 675 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,880 innovating in this space and we have like a lot of things that 676 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:43,960 we're doing, I think in a better way than before. 677 00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:48,320 It's complex like the the whole mission of security identities, 678 00:35:48,720 --> 00:35:51,640 I think one of the most complex in, in cybersecurity in general. 679 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:54,480 Like I have obviously a lot of friends that run companies in 680 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:57,280 other areas of cybersecurity. I think that identity is one of 681 00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:00,560 the most complex. I think that the fact that 682 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:04,560 there's so many solutions already doesn't help because the 683 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:08,600 fact that you already have 20 different solutions, I mean, it 684 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:11,120 makes it even more difficult because we're not just coming in 685 00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:14,400 with this amazing new platform and you have nothing today and 686 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:16,640 we just come and install it for you and you're you're done. 687 00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:19,320 You also have like 20 different things that you already have in 688 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:21,480 place that we need to deal with and integrate with and work 689 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:23,240 with. It makes it a little more 690 00:36:23,240 --> 00:36:26,320 complex, but I think that that's part of the mission. 691 00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:28,520 Like how do we work with the existing stack while it's 692 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:31,360 gradually being replaced? Because it will be like a lot of 693 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,880 these old pieces. They'll do for now all the time. 694 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,240 There will be next Gen. solutions for all of them. 695 00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:40,360 I mean, a lot of start-ups are already doing amazing things and 696 00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:45,760 I think the technology is there. Companies need to be open to 697 00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:49,040 looking at new ways of doing things, better ways of doing 698 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,000 things. And I think that they finally 699 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,600 out, at least that's what I'm feeling from talking to a lot of 700 00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:56,360 even the largest companies. And we all already work with 701 00:36:56,360 --> 00:37:01,880 like a lot of the Fortune 50 Even so even the largest 702 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:05,360 companies that were always like a little slow are opening up to 703 00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:08,920 the idea that, hey, we OK, we can't do this with the old 704 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:10,480 tools. So what's new? 705 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:13,440 What's what's I'll do? I think we can see that in the 706 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:18,800 conference a lot like even the the companies that that two 707 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:20,720 years ago, three years ago, I remember talking to them and 708 00:37:20,720 --> 00:37:24,360 said, so we were like, it may be a better way, but we're kind of 709 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:26,840 stuck with how we do things. Now they're coming back and 710 00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,760 saying OK, like we understand this is evolving and we need to 711 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:33,360 catch up. What do you attribute that to? 712 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,520 Because I think there's this real, you know, fatigue that 713 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:39,720 comes with, I need another tool to do this thing, right? 714 00:37:39,720 --> 00:37:43,000 Why can't Axe do this thing that I already have in place? 715 00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:45,920 What do you think has changed over the last year or so where 716 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,560 those companies have started to make those investments because 717 00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:51,160 these things cost money? I think that one thing is that 718 00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:55,040 the the new generation of technologies matured a little. 719 00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,280 I mean when we started, I mean even last time we spoke a couple 720 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:02,280 of years ago when we were still growing, we had some big 721 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:04,080 enterprise customers which was kind of early. 722 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:07,440 A lot of the customers that started working with us in the 723 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:11,960 early days took a bet on us. I think that now that it's much 724 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:15,840 more established and you got we, we have like 1000 enterprise 725 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,720 customers using this. So it's a little less of a of a 726 00:38:18,720 --> 00:38:22,640 risk for them and and they don't like risk, right, at least many 727 00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:24,960 of them. So I think that's one thing. 728 00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,200 Second thing is the fact that the threats are evolving. 729 00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:30,840 I think people understand that they're going to get breached a 730 00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:33,400 lot if they don't figure out what to do. 731 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:37,520 So I think that's partly part of it. 732 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:41,160 And again, there's the overall priority that identity is 733 00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:45,440 getting over other categories of security because the old 734 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:47,760 perimeter is gone and people are walking from anywhere. 735 00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:51,000 And I think there's more understanding even at the, even 736 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:54,200 at the board level and the CEO level that identity is, is 737 00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:57,320 critical. They can actually understand it. 738 00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:00,080 I think more than themselves, some others of security, they, 739 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,240 they, they get it like they think that's one of the 740 00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:05,320 advantages and also disadvantages of identity. 741 00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:09,280 It meets the end user more than any other category of security. 742 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:13,760 Like every, every employee, every, you know, the CEO logs in 743 00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:16,480 and has to do like multi factor authentication and all these 744 00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:18,280 things. Like they actually see them as 745 00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:21,120 opposed to some of the stuff that like other categories where 746 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:22,680 it's much more behind the scenes. 747 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:26,480 So they understand the importance and the way to put 748 00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:28,040 more budgets on it. I, I hear from a lot of 749 00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:31,400 companies that identity is now like the number one priority or 750 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:36,640 the number one budget item, which is, which is great because 751 00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:39,480 I do believe, and I'm, I'm, I'm biased, but I, I honestly do 752 00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:42,560 believe that it is the most important element of security 753 00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:45,200 these days. So this idea of identity being 754 00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:48,720 the new perimeter, I struggle with that because it's not going 755 00:39:48,720 --> 00:39:51,400 to different, but around for 15 years at this point. 756 00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:53,840 You know, there's there's this idea. 757 00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:56,040 Yeah, just doesn't make sense to me. 758 00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:58,200 I want to do a little bit of the lightning round here because 759 00:39:58,200 --> 00:39:59,600 you've been very jazzed. You're trying to want to get you 760 00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:03,200 back out onto the conference. Let's do a quick round. 761 00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:06,040 Let's start with shared signals and shared signals framework. 762 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:08,600 I think it's an area that's showing a lot of promise, but 763 00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:11,000 I'm obvious to hear what your thoughts are as someone who's on 764 00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:13,760 the vendor side of this, and this is an idea this, you know, 765 00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,440 the idea here is that products being able to talk to each 766 00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:19,680 other, which sounds good on paper, but probably more complex 767 00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:21,760 behind the scenes. What are your thoughts on that? 768 00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:26,120 No, I completely agree. I I think that this is, we have 769 00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:29,160 to start working better as an industry between all the 770 00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:32,280 products because customers are not going to have one product. 771 00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:34,400 You know, some of the big vendors like to believe that 772 00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:37,480 they can just be the only cybersecurity product that the 773 00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:40,600 company has. I think the 99% of the company 774 00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:42,760 is just not going to work. They don't want to put all the 775 00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:46,320 eggs in one basket. They want some the cartridges 776 00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:48,160 that are are good for each space. 777 00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:50,680 We all have to understand how to work together. 778 00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:55,200 So I think it's a great initiative, you know, very 779 00:40:55,680 --> 00:41:00,080 compelling to us. And I think that it's one of the 780 00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,880 things that as as our company grows, we understand more and 781 00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:06,160 more that are are super important to our customers 782 00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:08,880 because early on we only thought about what, what will make our 783 00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:11,320 product the best and what best features we can build. 784 00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:15,920 The more we meet more real customers and deploy little 785 00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:18,360 environments, we understand that integrating with all the other 786 00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:22,280 tools they have is top priority because otherwise it's just 787 00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:24,720 another tool that you need to go to and log into. 788 00:41:24,720 --> 00:41:28,680 And then there's a cool UI. It's like, cool, but I'm not 789 00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:30,960 going to log into it because I have 100 other tools. 790 00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:34,360 So we have to figure out how to work together, I think. 791 00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:37,240 Yeah, I'm really glad that these initiatives are getting action. 792 00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,560 Yeah, In the real world, that ends up being let's take the 793 00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:41,840 logs and just stick them in our sin. 794 00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:45,160 Yeah, Yeah. And then it's to die, right? 795 00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:48,720 And it just sits around. We started this conversation two 796 00:41:48,720 --> 00:41:50,840 years ago. We started it with identity 797 00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:53,720 threat detection or response. So here we are two years later, 798 00:41:53,720 --> 00:41:56,080 and it was kind of a newish term back then. 799 00:41:56,480 --> 00:42:00,640 Is ITDR and is in identity security? 800 00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:02,680 Is identity security an evolution of ITTR? 801 00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:05,840 Was it always identity security? We're just finding better ways 802 00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:07,200 to talk about it. Where do you see that 803 00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:11,360 intersection between ITDR and this concept? 804 00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:15,120 Maybe of identity security? No, I think, I think ITDR is one 805 00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:18,400 element for identity security in our platform. 806 00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:21,920 It's one of seven different products. 807 00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:24,760 I think it's a very important element. 808 00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:29,360 But at the end of the day, ITDR is only about detecting attacks 809 00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:34,000 that are happening right now. It's not about preventing future 810 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:35,640 attacks, not about solving vulnerabilities. 811 00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:37,560 It's not about protecting different types of fidelities. 812 00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:40,200 It's only about telling you that you're under attack right now. 813 00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:44,280 So it's one element, I think that IDL did do something 814 00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:46,800 important. I think it what it was one of 815 00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:50,720 the first sub categories of identity security that got 816 00:42:50,720 --> 00:42:54,560 everybody to agree that there's need to be identity security 817 00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:57,280 category. Do you see it as like the killer 818 00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:00,360 app for identity security? Is it the thing that put it on 819 00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:03,560 the map? I think that this together with 820 00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:09,600 maybe NHI security now non human identities, I think were both 821 00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:11,240 both played a very important role. 822 00:43:11,240 --> 00:43:13,560 Although there are two very specific elements of identity 823 00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:16,120 security. I think what was good about them 824 00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:20,720 is I think people agreed that those should be kind of 825 00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:23,560 decoupled from the infrastructure because think 826 00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:28,640 about ITDR, does it make sense to do ITDR only within one IAM 827 00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:32,040 solution without understanding what behaviours are happening in 828 00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:33,440 the other? Obviously not. 829 00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:37,360 And I think it was so obvious that it got people to generally 830 00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:39,360 accept the idea that they didn't. 831 00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:40,800 Security has to be a layer on top. 832 00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:46,960 So even though ITDRONHI are not the only pieces, I think the 833 00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:49,120 fact that they got action the last couple of fields did a lot 834 00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:51,640 of good service to the to this market. 835 00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:58,120 ITDLI think is gradually becoming a feature in, in bigger 836 00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:00,680 identity security platform. And that's what I think what 837 00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:05,520 what I think it should be. So it's served a very important 838 00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:07,840 role. It still serves as a very 839 00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:11,880 important functionality. We deal an identity security 840 00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:15,800 platform, but I don't see it as a standalone category. 841 00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:20,640 I don't think many companies would buy an ITDR product these 842 00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:21,880 days. I think they'll they will look 843 00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:24,200 for a platform that also has ITDL in it. 844 00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:28,600 It's kind of like how I think UEBA evolved in the past. 845 00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:30,520 You know, we thought about it as a product and then it kind of 846 00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:33,880 got merged into other products and it became almost like a 847 00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:35,840 master feature in other products. 848 00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:41,240 I think ITDL is that same thing in identity, but still a very 849 00:44:41,240 --> 00:44:47,360 important functionality. So when this episode airs, going 850 00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:51,440 to be two weeks from 2025, which blows my mind. 851 00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:54,520 So a little bit of let's think about the future. 852 00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:57,480 What's the future for identity security? 853 00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:00,720 No pressure. Yeah. 854 00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:03,160 No, I think about it a lot. It's, it's a very good question. 855 00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:08,800 I think that a few things that I think will happen in 2025 and 856 00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:10,720 beyond. One is I think that 857 00:45:10,720 --> 00:45:13,160 consolidation will continue. We have too many products in 858 00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:15,920 this market. The fact that people need 20 859 00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:18,840 different products to do identity security is a problem. 860 00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:22,040 Most companies can't afford it and can't manage it. 861 00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:26,440 So consolidation will continue to acquisitions to companies 862 00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:30,040 building more and more products. I think there are a lot of 863 00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:35,560 companies that you used to think about as a Pam company or an MFA 864 00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:38,400 company or ITR company. Now you go to the website and 865 00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:40,480 you see identity security. It's a bigger story now. 866 00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:45,840 I think it's a good thing. 2nd is I think that AI will start to 867 00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:49,240 have much bigger impact in, in a few different ways. 868 00:45:49,240 --> 00:45:52,440 I think 1 is obviously attackers will start using it more. 869 00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:55,320 We, we already hear about more attacks. 870 00:45:55,320 --> 00:46:00,280 Well, somebody's using like deepfake to take someone into 871 00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:04,560 thinking that they're the boss or someone from IT and get them 872 00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:07,320 to give them the credentials or pull the MFA. 873 00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:10,880 It's very concerning. There's also opportunity to use 874 00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:14,800 AI to our benefit. But I think even more 875 00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:17,560 interestingly, there's a question of how do we secure the 876 00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:22,960 identities of AI agents? Because AI agents are and you 877 00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:25,840 type of, let's call it non human identity. 878 00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:29,440 That is very different from what we used to call it non human 879 00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:32,040 identity. So this category of NHI was 880 00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:34,320 barely even born and how it has to reinvent itself. 881 00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:38,240 It's funny, but I think that will be a big task that, you 882 00:46:38,240 --> 00:46:41,400 know, as a as a as an industry, I think is actually pretty 883 00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:45,280 exciting because we get to play a big role in what will the 884 00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:50,240 future of AI look like in order to to make it secure, which I 885 00:46:50,240 --> 00:46:53,120 think is part of a bigger thing. I mean, the last couple of years 886 00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:54,400 we've all been excited about Gen. 887 00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:57,280 AI. Think now as it matures, there's 888 00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:02,160 a whole ecosystem that develops around like the infrastructure 889 00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:02,920 for Gen. AI. 890 00:47:03,240 --> 00:47:05,760 How do you secure it? How do you do compliance for it? 891 00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:08,840 How do you, you know, like companies that are building the 892 00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:12,360 actual AI, but they're building all the ways that organisations 893 00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:16,240 will be able to use it, you know, safely and, and, and 894 00:47:16,240 --> 00:47:19,000 effectively. So I think that the identity 895 00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:21,200 industry actually have a huge opportunity to be part of it, 896 00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:24,200 you know, to to create something that will enable organisations 897 00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:30,280 to use AI better by securing the identity and the access that AI 898 00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:32,360 agents are doing within the environment. 899 00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:36,240 That's a pretty exciting. Thing I think about like is it 900 00:47:36,240 --> 00:47:41,960 more risky to use AI or is it more risky to not use AI? 901 00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:45,600 In my opinion, it's always good to not use AI these days. 902 00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:49,520 I mean, that's my view as ACEO, not even as a as a security 903 00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:54,880 vendor. I mean, I have part of my job is 904 00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:58,040 as a, as a, you know, someone who leads the security company 905 00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:02,640 to think about obviously the, you know, how do we help secure 906 00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:07,160 AI And there's a lot of risk, a lot of questions, though on the 907 00:48:07,160 --> 00:48:11,560 other end, there's ACEO of, of, of any company, I think that you 908 00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:15,000 cannot afford to not adopt AI fully. 909 00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:18,440 I'm not just saying like try and test it. 910 00:48:18,720 --> 00:48:24,520 I think that any CEO was not jumping in to adopt AI as much 911 00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:27,360 as they can. I don't think we'll be able to 912 00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:30,720 exist in a few years because the effect that this has on 913 00:48:30,720 --> 00:48:35,760 productivity is so big. I don't even know if all 914 00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:38,320 companies understand it. I think some companies obviously 915 00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:39,800 do and you see what they're doing. 916 00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:44,080 We're adopting it a lot internally like so many things 917 00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:46,160 that we are now starting to do with AI and we are only 918 00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:51,120 sketching the the surface. So I think that it will be 919 00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:56,440 almost not competitive to not adopt AI to its full potential. 920 00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:59,720 And now as security vendors, we have a job. 921 00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:02,680 How do we help organisations do IT security. 922 00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:05,960 But I think that we have to run very fast because nobody's going 923 00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:08,920 to wait for us. Like the impact on on the 924 00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:13,120 business is so big if you adopt AI well that people are going to 925 00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:14,520 do it whether it's secure or not. 926 00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:16,640 So we just need to make sure that we help them do it 927 00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:18,880 securely. I don't think they'll be able to 928 00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:24,760 afford to to not do it. Yeah, I think that if data is 929 00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:29,880 your crown jewel and you have competitors, if you use AI, 930 00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:32,720 there's a real scope. They have to open it up to our 931 00:49:32,720 --> 00:49:35,360 data, to our crown rules, they get stolen. 932 00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:39,520 That could ruin our business. But if we don't use AI to get 933 00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:43,400 the most out of that data and our competitors do, and there's 934 00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:45,760 not a breach, we're going to smoke us. 935 00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:48,400 Yeah, we'll, we'll be very secure losers. 936 00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:50,360 It's very secure. Losers, right? 937 00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:52,640 It sounds very much like the cloud conversation for 20. 938 00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:56,040 Yeah, well, you know what I'm doing because someone else is 939 00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:59,280 going to have it now. Yeah, although I think that this 940 00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:03,080 is much bigger than the cloud revolution. 941 00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:06,160 You know, I think this is going to be huge and I, I don't need 942 00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:10,440 to, like, I'm sure enough words have been said about this, but 943 00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:12,000 I, I'm really, I, I believe in it. 944 00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:16,160 You know, I've seen already and also like talking to other CE OS 945 00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:18,720 of other companies, not even in cybersecurity, just in general. 946 00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:22,960 I'm already seeing the impact and, and we are only starting, 947 00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:27,360 like this is only the beginning. So it's, it's hard to even 948 00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:30,320 understand how much this is going to change everything. 949 00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:34,240 And I think that we have a chance as a security industry, 950 00:50:34,240 --> 00:50:38,040 as I think especially as, as identity and the identity 951 00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:43,400 security industry to have a play a role in how can we make it 952 00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:45,160 secure. I think it is possible. 953 00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:49,560 I think there is a way to make AI secure. 954 00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:53,280 And that's something that I'm, I'm, you know, very passionate 955 00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:55,760 about and I'm talking to other vendors and customers about. 956 00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:59,160 And I think there's, there's so much we can innovate and do in 957 00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:02,080 this space. So that's one thing that I think 958 00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:05,960 I don't think we're fully get to its full potential in 2025, but 959 00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:08,280 it will definitely make a big step, yeah. 960 00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:11,440 So here's my prediction for next year, 2025. 961 00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:15,000 I don't know if I'll go to RSA, probably not, but I'm going to 962 00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:18,560 guess I'm going to walk through the vendor halls and see a whole 963 00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:23,200 new cottage crop of AI security units, right? 964 00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:25,440 It's, you know, it's out there, it's going to happen and it's 965 00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:28,960 going to be, you know, but that'll be the RSA, the 966 00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:30,960 conference trend for last year and maybe the year after that, 967 00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:32,440 right? Just like we saw with Zero Trust 968 00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:34,480 and AI, right? Half of them would be called 969 00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:36,040 something AI, right? Yeah. 970 00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:38,440 Because you don't want to miss the the fact that the AI 971 00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:40,120 companies. So it's important to put it in 972 00:51:40,120 --> 00:51:44,000 the name. Yeah, I think, I mean, if you 973 00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:47,680 look at how investors now choose where to invest, I think that 974 00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:52,480 it's very hard for an investor these days to even even justify 975 00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:56,680 investment in a company. It is not about AI even to their 976 00:51:56,680 --> 00:52:00,600 investors, you know, to their LP's because it's it's such a 977 00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:02,560 game changer. Everybody want to be part of it. 978 00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:05,760 They don't know even like where where to put the money split 979 00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:06,800 every. But yeah. 980 00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:09,160 So that's that's the strategy. Like let's just put it 981 00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:13,000 everywhere. But I think that it is becoming 982 00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:15,160 more difficult. If you were startup, early stage 983 00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:19,760 startup, not in AIII kind of I'm happy that we started backward. 984 00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:22,880 Not being an AI company was was OK. 985 00:52:23,240 --> 00:52:28,680 And now because our business is, is, is big, we get to, I mean, 986 00:52:28,680 --> 00:52:31,600 raise money based on our performance and not just based 987 00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:34,400 on an idea, because I think these days raising money for an 988 00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:36,800 idea that is not related to AI, it's actually pretty hard. 989 00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:39,240 The investors are very embarrassing. 990 00:52:39,240 --> 00:52:42,480 I, I, I don't think it's just another trend that will be 991 00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:44,760 replaced in a year. I think it's going to be with us 992 00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:47,360 for the next, you know, long time. 993 00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:49,680 Oh, so AI is not going away? OK, interesting. 994 00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:51,080 No, it's a full state. I don't mean. 995 00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:56,240 I mean that the, the fact that investors, yeah, almost solely 996 00:52:56,240 --> 00:52:59,240 you want to invest in it, I think is, is going to change the 997 00:52:59,240 --> 00:53:02,560 way it's, I mean for, for for a long time, the way that 998 00:53:02,560 --> 00:53:05,440 start-ups even come up with what idea they're going to go after, 999 00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:13,880 which is which is pretty crazy. So yeah, I, I think it's going 1000 00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:16,640 to be an interesting year in general for I mean all 1001 00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:18,400 technology, but but also an identity. 1002 00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:22,320 There's so much going on. And I think that with the 1003 00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:26,760 momentum that is now kind of coming to identity security, I 1004 00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:30,320 think it's, it's really the most exciting time that that I mean 1005 00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:33,520 that we have since we started at least eight years ago to be in 1006 00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:35,920 this market. It's it's what we've been 1007 00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:39,120 waiting for for years, honestly. It's exciting spot. 1008 00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:42,000 I am very bullish on AI. We've choked about turning this 1009 00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:46,000 into the AI the center podcast. I want to get you back out 1010 00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:49,000 there, but we always enter the lighter note and we're hidden 1011 00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:50,200 night. And for your course, hey, you 1012 00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:51,320 know, what kind of hobbies do you have? 1013 00:53:51,720 --> 00:53:53,120 He said, well, I used to have hobbies. 1014 00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:56,400 And you mentioned things like being an artist and being a 1015 00:53:56,400 --> 00:53:58,000 bartender. And I was, I used to be a 1016 00:53:58,000 --> 00:53:59,960 bartender as well. We started talking about that. 1017 00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:05,200 Tell me about give me your craziest or wildest bar story 1018 00:54:05,240 --> 00:54:07,280 because I feel like we all have something like that. 1019 00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:09,640 Oh yeah, those, no, those too many. 1020 00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:19,400 Yeah, it's, you know, it's been the, for me, not even before I 1021 00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:21,520 joined the, the security industry, it was kind of in the 1022 00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:26,560 middle because I was in 8200. It's like a technology unit for 1023 00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:31,320 enough like doing cyber offence. And then when I left the 1024 00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:33,040 military, that's where I I did this. 1025 00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:36,240 So I was, I was doing it almost as a break. 1026 00:54:36,240 --> 00:54:38,840 You know, I didn't want to jump right straight into to 1027 00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:41,600 technology again. And I, I just walked as a 1028 00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:45,720 bartender and yeah, it was, it was pretty insane. 1029 00:54:45,720 --> 00:54:50,040 I, I, I had, you know, a couple of years Will, Will, you know, 1030 00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:53,360 I, I only worked there and it was honestly amazing. 1031 00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:58,120 Like, I used to meet so many, you know, amazing people and 1032 00:54:58,120 --> 00:55:02,120 have like, crazy stories and then wake up at noon and, you 1033 00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:03,640 know, it was a very different life. 1034 00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:05,800 I feel like you're dodging the question a little bit. 1035 00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:06,960 Yeah, yeah. Give me a story. 1036 00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:11,880 Yeah, yeah. No, it's, I mean, there, there 1037 00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:15,720 was some obviously some crazy nights, like I think we'll, 1038 00:55:15,720 --> 00:55:18,280 we'll leave it at that. And and, you know, once that 1039 00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:21,960 they don't even remember sometimes I have to admit, but 1040 00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:25,200 it was it was awesome. I I'm I'm glad that I've I've 1041 00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:27,720 done it. And I think that I learned so 1042 00:55:27,720 --> 00:55:32,840 much about like how to treat people and work with people even 1043 00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:36,360 more than I learned in the tech industry that I took with me to, 1044 00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:40,800 you know, managing a company and, and, and the sales, right? 1045 00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:46,320 And managing people. I feel like it was such a good 1046 00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:51,200 lesson on, on just how to communicate with people of all 1047 00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:53,720 kinds and, and, and create friendships very quickly, right? 1048 00:55:53,720 --> 00:55:55,080 Because that's what you do as a bartender. 1049 00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:59,280 You need to talk to someone and almost immediately become the 1050 00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:02,120 friend, right? And I think that's such a great 1051 00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:06,160 skill that sometimes technology founders are missing because 1052 00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:08,760 they, they, they care so much about the technology and they're 1053 00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:10,320 so focused on it, so passionate about it. 1054 00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:14,200 And I, I am too, they missed that element, the human element 1055 00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:19,000 of like building a good bond with, with someone that at the 1056 00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:21,640 end of the day, even in the colleges, still the, the most 1057 00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:23,680 important thing because we're all people. 1058 00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:26,800 And as much as everyone is like could be excited about your 1059 00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:30,200 technology, I think that as a founder, you need to also build 1060 00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:32,680 relationship like really quickly with investors, with customers, 1061 00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:36,080 with employees and, and know how to treat them. 1062 00:56:36,520 --> 00:56:38,680 And I think that's one of the biggest advantages we have as a 1063 00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:42,000 company in Silapolis is the, the people element and the culture. 1064 00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:44,840 So that's part of it. And by the way, we just moved to 1065 00:56:44,840 --> 00:56:48,000 a new office, like really big office space. 1066 00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:53,080 And one of my projects that even some of my team may find out 1067 00:56:53,080 --> 00:56:56,680 about only in this, in this episode is that I actually want 1068 00:56:56,680 --> 00:56:59,400 to build a small bar in the, it's a big office. 1069 00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:04,960 We have like a big dining room and there's this small room next 1070 00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:06,400 to it that we didn't know what to do with. 1071 00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:09,000 We said, hey, maybe we'll just put a few shells there because 1072 00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:11,560 it's like a small, tiny room. And I said no, no, we're going 1073 00:57:11,560 --> 00:57:14,000 to do a small bowl in the office. 1074 00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:16,800 And that to me would be like a little closer. 1075 00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:20,400 So when you build that and you get that set up, what's the 1076 00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:24,920 first drink you make to sort of christen the, you know, the, the 1077 00:57:24,920 --> 00:57:26,720 big, the opening of the bar, so to speak? 1078 00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:29,920 That, that's a good question. I, I, I change my favorite drink 1079 00:57:29,920 --> 00:57:32,600 every few years, but right now for the few years it's been 1080 00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:35,520 there in Gwani. OK, yeah, I, I like it a lot. 1081 00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:41,160 And I also drink whiskey a lot. Yeah, there'll be something for 1082 00:57:41,160 --> 00:57:44,400 everyone, but hopefully not as not as many crazy stories 1083 00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:46,760 awfully in in the office. Not in the office we got, which 1084 00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:48,440 are policies now, all that kind of work. 1085 00:57:49,000 --> 00:57:53,760 We'll keep it lighter there, but but no, you need to enjoy, walk 1086 00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:55,280 a bit. I mean, I, I generally believe 1087 00:57:55,280 --> 00:57:58,920 that in a start up, you need people to do amazing things, 1088 00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:00,880 right? To go above and beyond and build 1089 00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:03,320 innovative amazing things. And I think people can only do 1090 00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:05,720 that when they're happy, you know, when they actually enjoy 1091 00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:07,200 what they do and who they do it with. 1092 00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:11,600 I mean, you can go and walk in in a company and do your job, 1093 00:58:12,560 --> 00:58:17,000 but to really do amazing things, I think that you can't do that 1094 00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:20,880 unless you really enjoy the people that you do it with. 1095 00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:23,280 You know that you kind of want you want to make this happen, 1096 00:58:23,280 --> 00:58:25,600 not just because you want to get paid because you can't get paid 1097 00:58:25,600 --> 00:58:29,360 even if you do average walk, but if you really care about the 1098 00:58:29,360 --> 00:58:31,640 people that do it with and you all that all of it to succeed. 1099 00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:36,320 So I really do believe that it's important to create an 1100 00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:38,360 environment where people actually love what they do and 1101 00:58:38,360 --> 00:58:42,920 love the people they do it with. And that's like the the most 1102 00:58:42,920 --> 00:58:44,960 important thing you can do to build a successful start up. 1103 00:58:44,960 --> 00:58:48,680 Because all the rest of it now, the technology and the, the 1104 00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:52,480 cells and all, all of that will happen if the people that work 1105 00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:54,720 for you actually love what they do and they're happy where they 1106 00:58:54,720 --> 00:58:56,560 are. Because the, the other ones we 1107 00:58:56,560 --> 00:58:59,080 need to do it like I have 400 employees right now. 1108 00:59:00,240 --> 00:59:04,120 If I close another deal or, or, or think about another feature 1109 00:59:04,120 --> 00:59:08,920 that that's almost meaningless. The people that work in the 1110 00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:11,560 company, the other ones who need to, to do all these things. 1111 00:59:11,560 --> 00:59:16,680 And you know, they, they will probably never like show by how 1112 00:59:16,680 --> 00:59:19,600 much I care about the company. But but if I can get them to 1113 00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:22,000 really feel at home in this company and to really feel like 1114 00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:24,520 it's, it's theirs and, and, and they care, I think that that's 1115 00:59:24,520 --> 00:59:26,920 the thing that makes start-ups successful. 1116 00:59:27,520 --> 00:59:32,640 So, you know, if part of that is having the best ball in town, 1117 00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:34,680 you know? Sometimes it's the little 1118 00:59:34,680 --> 00:59:35,720 things. That's all it takes you. 1119 00:59:36,080 --> 00:59:41,120 Know I was at a very large technology company recently and 1120 00:59:41,120 --> 00:59:46,120 they had like a prohibition era Speakeasy. 1121 00:59:46,520 --> 00:59:50,400 It was hidden behind a false wall, so it was like bookshelf. 1122 00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:52,480 I was wondering, but I know exactly you're talking about. 1123 00:59:52,480 --> 00:59:53,520 Yeah. He was like, I'm not sure how 1124 00:59:53,520 --> 00:59:55,640 how to bring that up, but. Yeah, you'll have to tell me 1125 00:59:55,640 --> 00:59:57,280 more about it, because that's exactly what I want. 1126 00:59:57,400 --> 01:00:00,440 To do, but if you have enough space, I mean, yeah. 1127 01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:02,640 Yeah. Yeah, we'll do that off the 1128 01:00:02,640 --> 01:00:05,680 recording, install it, OK. I'll shoot, I'll invite you. 1129 01:00:05,680 --> 01:00:08,520 Maybe the next episode we can shoot the drink. 1130 01:00:08,760 --> 01:00:12,840 I would have I I don't remember how to bartend, but I'll do my 1131 01:00:12,840 --> 01:00:15,320 best. It's, it's funny that you you 1132 01:00:15,320 --> 01:00:16,920 come from that back onto it. I think it's. 1133 01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:19,960 Ten years in food service, you know, a lot of people, you know, 1134 01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:22,280 just kind of assume I've been in this forever is like, no, I had 1135 01:00:22,280 --> 01:00:24,800 a full career, you know, waiting table. 1136 01:00:24,800 --> 01:00:29,520 There's, you know, there's nothing as stressful as A5 table 1137 01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:33,600 section on A at a Chili's on a Friday night outside of a movie 1138 01:00:33,600 --> 01:00:35,360 theater. That's the most stress that I've 1139 01:00:35,360 --> 01:00:38,840 ever been in any job ever and any nothing has ever come close. 1140 01:00:38,880 --> 01:00:40,200 I, I actually agree. I think that people 1141 01:00:40,200 --> 01:00:43,960 underestimate it. I think that the amount of like 1142 01:00:43,960 --> 01:00:49,600 what you learn about, you know, about service and about sales 1143 01:00:49,600 --> 01:00:53,120 and about people in, in the, you know, in the service and for the 1144 01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:58,120 industry is so much more. I, I think that the, it's 1145 01:00:58,120 --> 01:01:00,960 actually a really good background that I also have like 1146 01:01:00,960 --> 01:01:02,160 a few employees that come from this. 1147 01:01:02,160 --> 01:01:04,680 And I, I, I actually see this today as a huge advantage when I 1148 01:01:04,680 --> 01:01:07,840 see it in some of the resume, which most people wouldn't think 1149 01:01:07,840 --> 01:01:10,440 about. I think everybody should have to 1150 01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:14,280 serve one way or another and that and just that. 1151 01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:16,000 That's the service. Everyone needs to understand 1152 01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:16,880 that. Ian. 1153 01:01:17,720 --> 01:01:20,960 All right, Jim, last statement for the year 2024. 1154 01:01:22,400 --> 01:01:26,000 Let's go 2025. OK, we'll go ahead and wrap it 1155 01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:27,320 up there head. Thank you so much. 1156 01:01:27,320 --> 01:01:29,560 Yeah, thank you. Yeah, we're going to get that 1157 01:01:29,560 --> 01:01:31,480 fun. I'm going to put your LinkedIn 1158 01:01:31,560 --> 01:01:33,800 back in our show notes so people can reach out by the vice of 1159 01:01:33,800 --> 01:01:36,320 macaroni recipes or whiskey any, or, you know, whatever. 1160 01:01:36,400 --> 01:01:39,560 Anyone who wants to talk about the Saudi city, I'm really happy 1161 01:01:39,560 --> 01:01:40,840 to talk, so feel free to reach out. 1162 01:01:41,760 --> 01:01:43,360 So that's great. We're going to leave it for this 1163 01:01:43,360 --> 01:01:45,760 week and for this year, which is crazy to say. 1164 01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:49,400 We have the YouTube channel, we're at idacpodcast.com. 1165 01:01:49,840 --> 01:01:53,520 If you go to idacpodcast.tv, you can find our YouTube channel. 1166 01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:55,920 So for now, we're planning to continue to that. 1167 01:01:55,920 --> 01:01:58,480 We'll see, but like and subscribe that shows support for 1168 01:01:58,480 --> 01:02:00,120 that as well. And of course, you can connect 1169 01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:03,480 with any of us on LinkedIn as well for any thoughts, ideas, 1170 01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:05,520 clients, concerns, it's we read them all. 1171 01:02:06,120 --> 01:02:07,360 So with that, we'll go ahead and leave it. 1172 01:02:07,680 --> 01:02:10,040 Thank you everybody for watching and we're listening this year 1173 01:02:10,200 --> 01:02:11,760 and we'll talk with you all the next one. 1174 01:02:14,320 --> 01:02:17,320 You've been listening to Identity at the Center. 1175 01:02:17,720 --> 01:02:21,800 We hope you've enjoyed the show. Make sure to like, rate and 1176 01:02:21,800 --> 01:02:25,400 review, and we'll be back soon. But in the meantime, hit the 1177 01:02:25,400 --> 01:02:28,840 website at identity@thecenter.com. 1178 01:02:29,440 --> 01:02:33,520 See you next time on Identity at the Center.