1 00:00:06,100 --> 00:00:08,500 Do you know who has access to what this is? 2 00:00:08,500 --> 00:00:10,600 The identity at the center podcast? 3 00:00:10,900 --> 00:00:13,900 If you're looking for identity and access management talk 4 00:00:13,900 --> 00:00:26,400 you've come to the right place and now on to the show, Welcome 5 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:28,100 to the identity of the center podcast. 6 00:00:28,100 --> 00:00:29,800 I'm Jeff. And that's Jim. 7 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:33,800 Hey, Jim hey, Jeff. So we're going to skip our 8 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:38,300 normal friendly, upfront inane. Banter, jump straight into 9 00:00:38,300 --> 00:00:41,900 today's topic which is blockchain, identity calculator. 10 00:00:42,100 --> 00:00:45,900 That's why most of the people have maybe we should start over, 11 00:00:46,300 --> 00:00:48,800 but as I was going to joke around and say that's why most 12 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:52,800 of the people listen to our podcast or banter beginning, 13 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:54,600 banter of friend, you know what, we're going to leave that in 14 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:57,100 because It just shows that real life people. 15 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:00,800 Yes, we too. Sometimes will stumble over 16 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:03,600 things but that's fine. So we're going to skip the inane 17 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:07,500 banter which we just had and get right into blockchain identity. 18 00:01:07,500 --> 00:01:11,000 It's the topic that you and I have been discussing off and on 19 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:14,000 since we started this podcast, so back in July. 20 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:17,500 So, a couple months now, we've brought in some experts to help 21 00:01:17,500 --> 00:01:20,000 us do today, to help us with that conversation. 22 00:01:20,300 --> 00:01:23,500 We have from ID ramp.com, Mike deasy. 23 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:25,600 How you doing? Mike, I'm doing well. 24 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:26,800 Q. Thanks for having me on the 25 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:30,200 show, thanks for joining us before we get started here. 26 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:31,900 What if you could just kind of give a brief introduction of 27 00:01:31,900 --> 00:01:35,500 yourself and your kind of role in the I am space and then we'll 28 00:01:35,500 --> 00:01:38,300 jump right into the blockchain Extravaganza. 29 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:42,100 Sure. Yeah I d-- ramp was really just 30 00:01:42,100 --> 00:01:46,400 born out of out of identity challenges and complex corporate 31 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:49,400 identity ecosystems that we would work in. 32 00:01:49,500 --> 00:01:53,300 And, you know, I would say the last 18 months, we really 33 00:01:53,300 --> 00:01:59,200 converted to adopting I'm more of a blockchain based model and 34 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:04,400 integrating the blockchain based identity into our existing, into 35 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:06,600 our existing Federation story for Enterprises. 36 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:09,699 So that's that's where idea, rep is and where we came from. 37 00:02:09,699 --> 00:02:11,700 And yeah, we're excited to talk about it. 38 00:02:12,500 --> 00:02:14,700 So before we get too far down the pipeline, I think we 39 00:02:14,700 --> 00:02:17,700 probably want to talk about what is blockchain? 40 00:02:18,100 --> 00:02:21,700 Can you give a brief or a simple explanation around that as maybe 41 00:02:21,700 --> 00:02:24,900 something that you would describe it to your mother or a 42 00:02:24,900 --> 00:02:28,000 young child? Is that possible certainly? 43 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:29,700 Yeah, I know. And that's that's the right 44 00:02:29,700 --> 00:02:32,000 place to start because it really frames everything else. 45 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:36,700 And one of the most important things about talking blockchain, 46 00:02:36,700 --> 00:02:40,900 identity is really dispelling, you know, and outlining. 47 00:02:40,900 --> 00:02:43,400 What it's not right, because that's always where the 48 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,700 confusion comes in. Everybody has a notion of a 49 00:02:46,700 --> 00:02:49,700 blockchain and, and cryptocurrencies and all the 50 00:02:49,700 --> 00:02:53,500 places that we have familiarity. And so, so yeah, let me go 51 00:02:53,500 --> 00:02:56,400 through a scenario because I think this really He draws a 52 00:02:56,400 --> 00:03:02,100 pretty pretty fine point on how blockchain is used in identity 53 00:03:02,100 --> 00:03:05,100 verification and an authentication. 54 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:10,200 So let's assume that I want to know something about you. 55 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:12,800 So I may be a home address, for example. 56 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:17,800 Now I can certainly ask you and you can tell me and and and you 57 00:03:17,808 --> 00:03:21,200 know, I had no reason to really not believe that but what if I 58 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:24,900 need a little more proof you could you can pull your driver's 59 00:03:24,900 --> 00:03:28,000 license, right? Out of your out of your physical 60 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:30,600 wallet, your leather wallet. And you can show that to me and 61 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:33,200 I'd say, you know, I'm pretty, I'm pretty comfortable that, 62 00:03:33,300 --> 00:03:36,000 that I now have the address. What if I really wanted to know? 63 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:38,200 If what if you pull out your passport and showed me the 64 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:40,800 address for your passport? And then maybe you dug around 65 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:43,800 and found your voter ID card. And you pull that out and said, 66 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:47,100 here's an address on this. Now I'm really sure that if I 67 00:03:47,100 --> 00:03:49,200 send you a letter, you're going to get it, right? 68 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:50,900 I'm pretty sure I've got your physical address. 69 00:03:50,900 --> 00:03:52,600 That's the way the world works today. 70 00:03:54,900 --> 00:03:59,900 So, What is happening in the industry right now is all of 71 00:03:59,900 --> 00:04:02,400 those government issue credentials that I just 72 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:05,700 mentioned. There are projects going on all 73 00:04:05,700 --> 00:04:11,100 over the world where government entities and corporations are 74 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:14,500 are transforming the way they issue those physical credentials 75 00:04:14,900 --> 00:04:16,800 and also issuing a digital counterpart. 76 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:21,000 So many states in the u.s. here are are either active and 77 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:26,500 projects or looking at projects to perform digital Digital 78 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:30,800 copies of your driver's license. And all of that stuff is going 79 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:33,600 to is going to be issued and live together. 80 00:04:33,700 --> 00:04:40,600 And now it opens the market to applications to create digital 81 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:44,200 wallets instead of physical wallets for you to hold those 82 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:46,300 credentials. And the really important thing 83 00:04:46,300 --> 00:04:49,800 is that you are holding those credentials, right? 84 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:54,300 It's not being held in some cloud-based service, or Google, 85 00:04:54,300 --> 00:04:57,900 or Facebook, or someone else. That's acting as a as a champion 86 00:04:57,900 --> 00:04:59,800 of your identity or a steward of your identity. 87 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:02,600 Those are, those are yours and they're issued in some, in some 88 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:05,300 digital wallet and that could be an app on your smartphone, it 89 00:05:05,300 --> 00:05:07,900 could be a website somewhere. I mean, there's going to be a 90 00:05:07,907 --> 00:05:12,000 lot of different permutations of digital wallets, but the 91 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:16,200 takeaway is ultimately, you are responsible for the information 92 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:20,700 in there and you alone have the ability to Grant access to the 93 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:23,100 to the content contained within so. 94 00:05:23,300 --> 00:05:25,600 So how does that pertain to the block? 95 00:05:26,100 --> 00:05:27,800 You know, I didn't mention anything about storing 96 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:31,900 information on the blockchain because in fact we're not right? 97 00:05:31,900 --> 00:05:35,300 And this scenario those credentials are being held in 98 00:05:35,300 --> 00:05:40,400 your personal wallet and and and here's where blockchain fits. 99 00:05:40,500 --> 00:05:45,200 So back in our scenario, now I have my digital wallet and it 100 00:05:45,207 --> 00:05:48,600 created it contains those three, those three digital credentials. 101 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:51,400 My digital, driver's license, voter ID, and passport. 102 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:55,600 And now I'm going to ask you digitally to prove your address. 103 00:05:55,700 --> 00:05:58,200 All right. So this is some some application 104 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:01,000 or some site or something that I've developed and I'm going to 105 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:04,100 say I would really like to know your home address. 106 00:06:05,300 --> 00:06:07,200 And I'm going to ask specifically for your home 107 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:10,900 address, from your driver's license, and your passport, and 108 00:06:10,900 --> 00:06:14,300 your voter ID card. What happens is you're going to 109 00:06:14,300 --> 00:06:16,900 receive a prompt right from your digital wallet and it's going to 110 00:06:16,900 --> 00:06:20,300 say, hey Mike really wants to know your address from these 111 00:06:20,300 --> 00:06:23,600 three sources. Are you willing to share that 112 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:28,800 information and I'm going to say Sure and I send that information 113 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:35,700 back to back to the the application and I now have a 114 00:06:35,700 --> 00:06:38,500 tested that digitally. So that's great. 115 00:06:38,500 --> 00:06:40,500 But it's not any more secure, right? 116 00:06:40,500 --> 00:06:42,700 All I've done is trade one, physical process. 117 00:06:42,700 --> 00:06:46,600 Showing you a credential for a digital one block chain allows 118 00:06:46,700 --> 00:06:49,400 when that issue or issues that credential. 119 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:53,100 So the state issues that driver's license, they sign that 120 00:06:53,100 --> 00:06:57,100 with some cryptography and they can store or those keys or store 121 00:06:57,100 --> 00:07:00,100 that representation think of it as like a certificate of 122 00:07:00,100 --> 00:07:04,000 authenticity, right? And they say I certify that this 123 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,100 information contained within this credential that I have 124 00:07:07,100 --> 00:07:13,900 issued Mike is accurate and it's valid hasn't been tampered with 125 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:18,600 and it has not been revoked. So so now what happens in that 126 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:21,900 application when the application asks for that address in the 127 00:07:21,900 --> 00:07:25,600 three different sources, it can also go to the blockchain and 128 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:28,400 Wide real-time validation that. All three of those things are 129 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:31,800 still valid. And if all of that checks out 130 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:34,600 now, I absolutely know that that's your address. 131 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:36,900 So that's the role. The blockchain plays in 132 00:07:36,900 --> 00:07:38,900 identity. It's never storing the 133 00:07:38,900 --> 00:07:43,400 information that you hold near and dear. 134 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:47,900 It's only providing the ability to validate that information on 135 00:07:47,900 --> 00:07:51,300 a on a globally deployed Network. 136 00:07:51,300 --> 00:07:54,800 So what happens when there is a conflict in the accuracy 137 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:58,700 information, what if my wallet is different than let's say the 138 00:07:58,700 --> 00:08:00,400 driver's license or the DMV, right? 139 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:03,500 They would say yeah, this this license is valid or not. 140 00:08:03,500 --> 00:08:05,800 How does that get resolved? Sure. 141 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:12,100 So, if and this, at the risk of getting, you know, to technical 142 00:08:12,700 --> 00:08:16,700 the proof that is asking, for that makes that determination. 143 00:08:16,700 --> 00:08:21,100 So, if I asked for your address, your wallet can return an 144 00:08:21,100 --> 00:08:23,800 address from any credential that satisfies that. 145 00:08:24,700 --> 00:08:27,500 If I specifically, Ask for your drivers, like the address 146 00:08:27,500 --> 00:08:29,100 contained with on your driver's license. 147 00:08:29,100 --> 00:08:31,700 That's the only credential that can provide that proof. 148 00:08:31,700 --> 00:08:36,700 So, in the case of where that information is not available, 149 00:08:36,700 --> 00:08:39,200 then it's up to you. I guess, as the as the proving 150 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:43,000 party to decide, how to how to go by that, you can say, okay? 151 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:46,300 Well, since you don't have an address from a state issue, 152 00:08:46,300 --> 00:08:49,000 driver's license. Maybe I'll take an address from, 153 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:52,500 you know, some other some other credential or some other piece 154 00:08:52,500 --> 00:08:54,500 of information. Is that does that answer your 155 00:08:54,500 --> 00:08:56,400 question? Yeah, I think so. 156 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:59,200 I think one of the things that I'm curious about to is, you 157 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:01,100 know, one of the concepts of blockchain least that way I 158 00:09:01,108 --> 00:09:03,900 understand is you have this immutable record, right? 159 00:09:03,900 --> 00:09:07,700 And the data essentially, traverses the chain and it's not 160 00:09:07,700 --> 00:09:13,000 really held any one spot if I wanted to tamper with one data 161 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:15,900 source, theoretically, there should be some check right 162 00:09:15,900 --> 00:09:18,800 somewhere that would say, wait this data source is out of sync 163 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:21,700 with all these others. What's going on here, correct? 164 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:24,300 Right? Yep, you're absolutely right. 165 00:09:24,300 --> 00:09:27,900 And what we're seeing, Big what we're seeing an emergence and 166 00:09:27,900 --> 00:09:32,400 now are things like like Sovereign Foundation you know 167 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:38,200 which is they're building a public permission ledger so and 168 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:41,100 they're providing a governance layer to help with things like 169 00:09:41,100 --> 00:09:44,100 that. So you know where the big one of 170 00:09:44,100 --> 00:09:48,000 the really big challenges is we have to provide public proofing 171 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:51,700 so that anybody can validate our ask for validation of those 172 00:09:51,700 --> 00:09:54,900 credentials, but in order to provide governance, we really 173 00:09:54,900 --> 00:09:58,200 have to have Control over the, you know, the people that are 174 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:00,700 issuing, those credentials and how those credentials are being 175 00:10:00,700 --> 00:10:03,700 issued. So, so I think that's why it's 176 00:10:03,700 --> 00:10:06,200 actually another reason why this technology is now ripe for 177 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:09,100 adoption. Because we have some of that 178 00:10:09,100 --> 00:10:12,400 governance concept and governance layer in place and 179 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,600 it's not truly, you know, the Wild Wild West. 180 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:18,500 What's the speed? Like if you have a is it the 181 00:10:18,500 --> 00:10:19,500 bigger? The blockchain? 182 00:10:19,500 --> 00:10:23,100 It's just faster connections are needed or how does that is the 183 00:10:23,100 --> 00:10:25,500 processing take place when you've got you know let's say 184 00:10:25,700 --> 00:10:27,800 Pretty big worldwide blockchain going. 185 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:32,200 What applications have to take into account to, you know, 186 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:34,000 expected time to read, you know, for results. 187 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:36,100 It's those sorts of things. Sure. 188 00:10:36,100 --> 00:10:41,400 And the nature of the nature of the, of the network, as I have 189 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:45,800 described, it really takes a lot of the complex processing out of 190 00:10:45,808 --> 00:10:47,500 it. The amount of information, and 191 00:10:47,508 --> 00:10:50,500 the amount of those, those proofs that are being generated 192 00:10:50,500 --> 00:10:53,300 or pretty lightweight because of the, the nature of what they're 193 00:10:53,300 --> 00:10:57,100 validating. I I don't know exactly how many, 194 00:10:57,100 --> 00:10:59,300 how many stewards are on sovereigns network. 195 00:10:59,300 --> 00:11:01,900 Now I think there's an excess of 70, so there's a lot of nodes 196 00:11:01,900 --> 00:11:05,600 that are running globally. Handling, this handling, this 197 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:08,100 load. And we've never, you know, never 198 00:11:08,100 --> 00:11:10,300 seen any indication that performance is going to be a 199 00:11:10,300 --> 00:11:12,100 problem in the way that this network is designed. 200 00:11:12,100 --> 00:11:13,900 Anyway, got it. Now you mentioned the term 201 00:11:13,900 --> 00:11:16,900 Steward for the folks that aren't familiar with that term. 202 00:11:16,900 --> 00:11:18,500 How do you define Steward on a blockchain? 203 00:11:18,500 --> 00:11:22,700 Sure. So a steward is an organization 204 00:11:22,700 --> 00:11:29,300 that has been vetted and To the ability to promote, trust 205 00:11:29,300 --> 00:11:31,200 anchors. And a trust anchor is basically 206 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:33,200 anyone that runs a node on the network. 207 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:38,300 So unlike other public non permission blockchains, where 208 00:11:38,300 --> 00:11:42,400 you can just stand up a server and plug in to the to the 209 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:48,200 network for for a permission to block chain with with the 210 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:51,500 governance layer such as this, you have to be, you have to be 211 00:11:51,500 --> 00:11:53,900 vetted and certified. So Steward has the ability to 212 00:11:53,908 --> 00:11:55,800 take an organization and say okay, Okay. 213 00:11:56,300 --> 00:12:01,300 You want to start issuing credentials and and doing proofs 214 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:04,500 to use for your services or employees or whatever. 215 00:12:04,500 --> 00:12:08,100 The case might be a steward where has the ability to form 216 00:12:08,100 --> 00:12:12,900 that relationship and Grant them the ability to, to deploy their 217 00:12:12,900 --> 00:12:16,400 own nodes on the network. So who does the wedding? 218 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:19,400 Then of the stewards is that an organization like Sovereign or 219 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:22,800 some other organization that would be responsible for that? 220 00:12:23,300 --> 00:12:25,500 Yeah, that's correct. The Sovereign Foundation. 221 00:12:25,700 --> 00:12:30,500 Why that's actually that's their biggest role is just to provide 222 00:12:30,500 --> 00:12:33,400 that the oversight in the end, the structure and doing that 223 00:12:33,500 --> 00:12:37,800 vetting of the stewards, got it. And then I would assume it was 224 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:39,800 that. Let me say, I hope that once you 225 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:42,400 become a steward there is still some sort of process to validate 226 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:44,700 that, that still accurate going forward, right? 227 00:12:44,700 --> 00:12:47,000 Is that okay? You're always certification or 228 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:49,400 some other time frame, that's correct. 229 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:53,400 It is that it's a, it's not a terribly easy process. 230 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:55,500 There's a lot of, there's a lot of Hoops. 231 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:58,600 Jump through but but we found it. 232 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:03,300 We found a pretty easy pretty straightforward and it's 233 00:13:03,300 --> 00:13:08,500 definitely it's definitely worth the heavy lifting up front just 234 00:13:08,500 --> 00:13:12,400 because there's so much certainty and control over 235 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:18,400 things like performance and and and knowing that you know, 236 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:21,100 knowing that this people that are signing these requests have 237 00:13:21,100 --> 00:13:23,700 actually been through that that governance process. 238 00:13:23,900 --> 00:13:26,900 So are different blockchains? Interoperable with each other. 239 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:31,500 That is a very, very good question and there's a lot of 240 00:13:31,500 --> 00:13:33,100 work going on in the industry right now. 241 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:39,400 So did routing the decentralized identifier became a standard 242 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:43,200 very recently and it is the standard that everyone is 243 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:47,000 marching toward right now and using whether you're building on 244 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:52,000 ethereum or more hyper Ledger everyone is has standardized on 245 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:55,300 this decentralized identifier, which is great news for the 246 00:13:55,300 --> 00:13:59,900 industry. There is still A lot of a lot of 247 00:13:59,900 --> 00:14:03,200 routing conversations going on and there's a working group for 248 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:07,500 the called Universal resolver, which is basically a way to use 249 00:14:08,300 --> 00:14:10,200 prefixes. In the end, the decentralized 250 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:12,500 identifiers to handle the routing between networks. 251 00:14:12,900 --> 00:14:15,300 That is going to be a place where we obviously have to have 252 00:14:15,300 --> 00:14:20,100 some Evolution to make sure that, that, that all of the 253 00:14:20,100 --> 00:14:22,500 different networks that are coming up to handle identities, 254 00:14:23,300 --> 00:14:27,600 have the ability to, you know, to accept and consume 255 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:29,400 credentials no matter where they're created. 256 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:34,100 So we're still pretty early pretty early days in that in 257 00:14:34,100 --> 00:14:38,400 that conversation. But there are a lot of people at 258 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:41,500 that table and the big, you know, the big people in the 259 00:14:41,500 --> 00:14:46,000 industry or certainly leading that charge and making sure that 260 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:49,800 the technologies that come out from Microsoft or IBM and the 261 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:54,800 hyper Ledger team are all consumable and interoperable. 262 00:14:56,100 --> 00:14:58,400 Okay, I would imagine that. That's something that's going to 263 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:01,900 have to rapidly iterate, if blockchains going to grow. 264 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:05,900 Because I can see something like people getting fear of vendor 265 00:15:05,900 --> 00:15:08,300 lock-in or something like that, where they're stuck on one 266 00:15:08,300 --> 00:15:10,200 chain, right? And they should have gone to 267 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:12,200 another. I like it it very similar to the 268 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:15,400 kind of like Gmail versus Yahoo mail in the old days and you 269 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:17,400 know now it's out looking at which Mail system are you on. 270 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:20,600 It's got a very deep hook into people and it's very difficult 271 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:23,900 to make change sometimes? Yeah, but I'm also wondering 272 00:15:24,900 --> 00:15:29,200 what about International Well, concerns where you might have, I 273 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:33,100 don't know, we use the dresses and example, but some of those 274 00:15:33,100 --> 00:15:37,500 conventions, you know, change from country to Country and 275 00:15:37,500 --> 00:15:42,000 certainly, you know, language differences, I'm wondering, are 276 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:45,300 there any impacts when it comes to, especially if you're looking 277 00:15:45,300 --> 00:15:49,600 at a global Enterprise? Maybe talk about that. 278 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:52,400 Mike. Yeah, I think the I mean the did 279 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:54,700 spec is pretty routable. I don't I don't think there's 280 00:15:54,700 --> 00:15:58,700 any issues internationally. I know of anyway, there are in 281 00:15:58,700 --> 00:16:02,900 fact, most of the work that that is being done in practice right 282 00:16:02,900 --> 00:16:05,500 now. Are coming from places not in 283 00:16:05,500 --> 00:16:09,100 the u.s., right. The province of British Columbia 284 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:15,600 is way ahead of where we are. They're issuing digital 285 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:20,800 credentials to their citizens today that are actually, I 286 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:24,700 believe they're going to go on The Sovereign Network and be 287 00:16:24,700 --> 00:16:28,300 provable there. There's other other countries 288 00:16:28,300 --> 00:16:31,300 that are, you know, I said much further ahead than where we are. 289 00:16:31,300 --> 00:16:37,400 And so we're catching up though and really things like like the 290 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:44,500 network and the the ability for us to interoperate with 291 00:16:44,500 --> 00:16:48,600 Technologies as the technology like, you know, hyper Ledger and 292 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:52,500 Hyper Ledger in D, for example, is suspect that that everyone on 293 00:16:52,500 --> 00:16:55,000 Sovereign or a lot of most people in Cyber Network anywhere 294 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:57,800 following this. This Indie spec. 295 00:16:57,900 --> 00:17:01,400 And what that means is, I can issue a credential and that 296 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:04,800 credentials consumable by a multitude of wallets. 297 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:09,099 You don't have to use, just my, my agent or my application in 298 00:17:09,099 --> 00:17:13,099 order to hold that credential and provide validation of that. 299 00:17:13,099 --> 00:17:16,400 So that that's the common framework that everybody is 300 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:19,099 writing to. And that's why that's why it's 301 00:17:19,099 --> 00:17:22,300 getting exciting in this industry because we're seeing 302 00:17:22,300 --> 00:17:27,599 now multiple people come in and and are able to issue 303 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:29,300 credentials. And those credentials are 304 00:17:29,300 --> 00:17:33,000 immediately consumable by a host of other applications. 305 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:36,500 And so, so either way, I think that's the most exciting thing 306 00:17:36,500 --> 00:17:39,700 that I'm seeing right now, what about data sovereignty? 307 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,300 I know that, you know, there's there's a big deal sometimes 308 00:17:42,300 --> 00:17:45,800 about where the data is stored countries like Russia and China 309 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:48,000 tend to want to have it and within their own reach and 310 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:49,800 control and be able to inspect the data. 311 00:17:50,300 --> 00:17:53,400 How would that apply to the blotching that spreads across? 312 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:55,600 And by its very nature, distributes that data. 313 00:17:55,900 --> 00:17:59,400 Much everywhere. Yeah and and you might be a 314 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:02,500 little bit beyond me there, I'm not sure if there are any active 315 00:18:02,500 --> 00:18:07,000 nodes running and in Russia or China and and how that would how 316 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:10,100 that would play, I do know that by nature of the data. 317 00:18:10,100 --> 00:18:14,100 There's not any there's not any personally identifiable or any 318 00:18:14,100 --> 00:18:16,100 data that we would consider it risk, right? 319 00:18:16,100 --> 00:18:20,300 These are just records of decentralized identifiers and 320 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:26,200 and a public key you know so there's not any significant Data 321 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:29,800 at risk. That would that would cause 322 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:33,300 concern. But I do appreciate fully having 323 00:18:33,300 --> 00:18:36,200 worked in some of those regions. The complexity of just 324 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:39,900 deploying, the technology may be a challenge in itself, so maybe 325 00:18:39,900 --> 00:18:42,900 we can shift gears and talk anymore on the internal 326 00:18:43,300 --> 00:18:46,600 Enterprise use case. What are some current or maybe 327 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:49,500 near-term use cases that you could see. 328 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,500 Let's just take, for example, a US company, you know, they 329 00:18:52,500 --> 00:18:56,100 operate their own environment and you know, they sell It's or 330 00:18:56,108 --> 00:18:58,600 whatever it may be. Things are taking place inside 331 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:01,100 the firewall, where would blockchain come in handy for 332 00:19:01,100 --> 00:19:05,200 something like that? Sure, I see it. 333 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:08,100 And I've been around, you know, the identity space for a long 334 00:19:08,100 --> 00:19:13,800 time and one of the biggest heaviest and most expensive 335 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:16,900 systems to maintain is the identity and access management 336 00:19:16,900 --> 00:19:19,500 system. It's, it's a beast and it's 337 00:19:19,500 --> 00:19:23,300 involved in every transaction, every service authentication, 338 00:19:23,700 --> 00:19:27,800 every user Authentication, Goes through the identity and access 339 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:32,200 management system. So if you have an application 340 00:19:33,100 --> 00:19:36,500 that is very heavy in nature and we all know obviously, you know, 341 00:19:37,300 --> 00:19:41,000 8:00 9:00 eastern time when everybody's logging in and 342 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:42,700 onboarding. That's always a huge Spike. 343 00:19:42,700 --> 00:19:46,300 And I am systems, right? For for an organization that has 344 00:19:46,300 --> 00:19:48,900 primary user base and Eastern us. 345 00:19:49,700 --> 00:19:52,400 We see you know, systems are ramping up their scaling up 346 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:55,700 providing more resources and it's you know, there's there's a 347 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:57,800 Exposure. Also, if that system happens to 348 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:00,800 fail. So the I am systems today are 349 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:02,800 critical but they're also front and center. 350 00:20:02,900 --> 00:20:06,100 All of that information is exposed publicly because our 351 00:20:06,100 --> 00:20:10,700 services are tied to it directly and and they're absolutely 352 00:20:10,700 --> 00:20:13,100 critical, right? If a system is deferring to 353 00:20:13,500 --> 00:20:17,300 that, I am system for for authorization and 354 00:20:17,300 --> 00:20:19,900 authentication. It absolutely has to be 355 00:20:19,900 --> 00:20:21,400 available hundred percent of the time. 356 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:25,900 So one, you know, one thing that we think of where digital Real 357 00:20:25,900 --> 00:20:28,900 credentials really plug in and help here is they can they can 358 00:20:28,900 --> 00:20:33,000 help flatten out that that Peak and Valley. 359 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:36,000 Spike that the I am systems go through. 360 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:41,800 So if you consider that a user comes in and they log in through 361 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:46,500 your IM system and some intelligent policy says okay 362 00:20:46,500 --> 00:20:48,700 you're in Human Resources. So we're going to give you a 363 00:20:48,700 --> 00:20:55,000 credential to use sap or something and maybe it says okay 364 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,100 here's a This guy we're going to give you access to you 365 00:20:57,100 --> 00:21:00,500 Salesforce and issues credentials for the services 366 00:21:00,500 --> 00:21:02,800 that these users consume throughout the course of their 367 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:07,400 day. And then those systems that that 368 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,400 the users are interacting with instead of deferring, back to 369 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,400 the identity management system. If instead, they just say 370 00:21:13,700 --> 00:21:17,100 present your digital credential and I will grant, you access 371 00:21:17,100 --> 00:21:20,200 directly as long as that credential is not been revoked. 372 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:25,400 Using the same, the same scenario and flow that I 373 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:27,300 outlined. And at the beginning of the 374 00:21:27,300 --> 00:21:30,700 podcast, right? Where that service says, I just 375 00:21:30,700 --> 00:21:34,100 need to know who you are, and I tell them directly from that, 376 00:21:34,100 --> 00:21:38,400 credential that I present from my personal wallet, and that 377 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:42,100 gets validated on The Ledger. So the Enterprise is not revoked 378 00:21:42,100 --> 00:21:44,100 my ability to log into Salesforce. 379 00:21:44,100 --> 00:21:48,600 Therefore I can then, you know, then I'd never have to go back 380 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:50,200 through. I never have to be dependent 381 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:52,600 upon that identity, and access management system. 382 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,900 I still may want those metrics and all that can be baked in But 383 00:21:55,900 --> 00:22:00,600 they can be distributed at the perimeter instead of centralized 384 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:04,300 at the. I am so for a very bursty 385 00:22:04,300 --> 00:22:07,200 service like Sabia webcasting service or something, where we 386 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:11,500 have 30,000 users, that are going to descend on this 387 00:22:11,500 --> 00:22:15,700 particular platform for a, for a webcast, they're all going to 388 00:22:15,708 --> 00:22:17,600 come in a two to three minute period. 389 00:22:17,900 --> 00:22:20,600 That's going to that's going to really be heavy on the IM 390 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:22,100 system. You know, it's going to it's 391 00:22:22,100 --> 00:22:27,200 going to cause a great Spike big load and a A real dependency on 392 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:30,400 that to be up and active. If instead we just say, oh, 393 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:32,100 you're registering for a webcast crate. 394 00:22:32,100 --> 00:22:36,100 Here's a digital credential, and issue that to the consumer. 395 00:22:36,100 --> 00:22:38,300 Then all the consumer has to do is go to that web, casting 396 00:22:38,300 --> 00:22:43,500 service present that credential be validated and and and go do 397 00:22:43,500 --> 00:22:45,400 their webcast. And the I am never sees that 398 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,000 traffic. So I think there is significant 399 00:22:49,300 --> 00:22:53,300 performance you know, in cost Savings in infrastructure that 400 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:57,300 an Enterprise can realize but also You know, security, you can 401 00:22:57,300 --> 00:23:00,000 literally take the IM system off the front line. 402 00:23:01,100 --> 00:23:04,000 You know, I RI the IM system that we use it. 403 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,600 ID ramp isn't even publicly available so it all sits on the 404 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:09,900 internet and you pick up your credentials and then you go 405 00:23:09,900 --> 00:23:13,300 interact with your services and and the identity and access 406 00:23:13,300 --> 00:23:17,000 management system is never physically available to the 407 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,900 public internet. Hey Mike, when you mentioned 408 00:23:19,900 --> 00:23:25,600 that you would take that webcasting example. 409 00:23:25,700 --> 00:23:28,000 Thank you, dish. You a credential to the user and 410 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:33,100 they would present that certain that credential the other 411 00:23:33,100 --> 00:23:36,200 wallet. So, picturing something in their 412 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:41,000 browser or something is managing a certificate so can you get 413 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:46,100 down into the, you know, basic blocking and tackling of how 414 00:23:46,100 --> 00:23:47,900 would the user go about presenting? 415 00:23:47,900 --> 00:23:52,500 That sure certainly could be. It certainly could be something 416 00:23:52,700 --> 00:23:56,600 in the browser that was referencing a Kind of an 417 00:23:56,600 --> 00:24:00,000 identity Hub, they contained that you know that collection of 418 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,000 wallets right those storing them on behalf of the users it could 419 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:09,100 also be a personal wallet application living on your iOS 420 00:24:09,100 --> 00:24:12,700 or Android phone. So there's it could. 421 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:16,100 I mean literally the wallet itself is just a virtual 422 00:24:16,100 --> 00:24:19,200 software agent and it can be it can live anywhere you could 423 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:22,700 write it right into the browser. If you if you choose. 424 00:24:22,700 --> 00:24:25,600 We see the most popular without question the most popular way. 425 00:24:25,700 --> 00:24:27,900 That those digital, those personal digital wallets are 426 00:24:27,900 --> 00:24:32,800 being developed, today is smartphone applications. 427 00:24:32,900 --> 00:24:36,300 So there these are sitting on IOS and Android devices. 428 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:41,200 But there are also a lot of a lot of players that are building 429 00:24:42,100 --> 00:24:47,000 the ability to really hold those in kind of a kind of a personal 430 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,500 wallet identity management system at that point if you 431 00:24:49,500 --> 00:24:53,400 will. And while I feel that has less 432 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,600 long-term value than Then something I give you personally, 433 00:24:57,900 --> 00:25:03,700 I'm totally understand and and respect the fact that that we 434 00:25:03,700 --> 00:25:07,000 may need some, some kind of a middle middle Gap there. 435 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:13,700 Before we get to a full user user hosted wallet, but you 436 00:25:13,700 --> 00:25:16,800 know, I'll Riff on that a little bit because there is a big 437 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:20,600 advantage to a personal wallet. If we have a world where there's 438 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:22,500 a bunch of these personal identity wallets and they're 439 00:25:22,500 --> 00:25:25,600 coming on the scene, right? There's more and more every day. 440 00:25:25,700 --> 00:25:28,400 Day. And and I have my employees go 441 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,600 out and download one of these personal identity wallets, 442 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,000 right? They and it's theirs. 443 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:35,900 It's their identity. They create their identity. 444 00:25:35,900 --> 00:25:38,400 However, they see fit. They put the attributes in there 445 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:42,100 that they see fit if I can interoperate that, interoperate 446 00:25:42,100 --> 00:25:46,400 with that as an Enterprise, and I can say great, you got your 447 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,800 personal wallet. Here's some credentials that you 448 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,200 need from my organization to interact with these services 449 00:25:53,500 --> 00:25:57,800 that I think you need access to. And the user says, okay, great. 450 00:25:57,800 --> 00:25:59,900 I'll just put those in my personal wallet. 451 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:04,500 You're really tearing down a huge barrier and a huge wall 452 00:26:04,500 --> 00:26:07,200 that exists today between the employee and the employer. 453 00:26:07,500 --> 00:26:11,800 Now, my employer is is literally my technology partner, right? 454 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:16,100 I'm not saying here is an identity I created for you and 455 00:26:16,100 --> 00:26:18,400 to use it. Go through this proprietary 456 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:22,000 laptop with this proprietary, VPN client, and all of this 457 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:27,000 really proprietary software. Instead, I'm just saying these 458 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,700 are your access credentials and you put them wherever you hold 459 00:26:29,700 --> 00:26:33,000 your identity information and it will seamlessly coexist. 460 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:36,100 I mean, I think that's a very powerful message that the 461 00:26:36,100 --> 00:26:40,000 Enterprise can put out as well and it really does bring the two 462 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:44,100 closer together and in true partnership form, which is a 463 00:26:44,100 --> 00:26:46,200 popular place to be for the Enterprise today. 464 00:26:46,300 --> 00:26:47,600 I think it's cool. I think it's powerful. 465 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:49,500 I just don't think companies are there yet. 466 00:26:50,100 --> 00:26:53,000 I think it's there's there's a trust issue. 467 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,700 I think I feel like we're organizations Do not want to 468 00:26:56,700 --> 00:27:00,200 expose their active directory, right to outside of the network, 469 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:04,000 for example, but I see the benefit of having something like 470 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:06,900 an apple wallet, right? Or a Google pay wall or a 471 00:27:06,900 --> 00:27:10,100 Samsung pay wallet where your credentials are in there and 472 00:27:10,100 --> 00:27:14,200 stored and you have a way to visually organize them and 473 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:20,600 somehow use that kind of analogy to authenticate to a network is, 474 00:27:20,700 --> 00:27:23,100 are you aware of any companies who are doing, what you just 475 00:27:23,100 --> 00:27:27,800 described where they're letting their Employees, give them that. 476 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:32,900 Digital credential, I'm not obviously other than ID room we 477 00:27:32,900 --> 00:27:36,000 do. And, and, you know, others that 478 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,700 are that are close to the technology are doing similar 479 00:27:38,700 --> 00:27:41,900 things. But yeah, that is and I agree 480 00:27:41,900 --> 00:27:44,100 with you on one front that I think they're there. 481 00:27:44,300 --> 00:27:47,500 They are standoffish about access but I also think that 482 00:27:47,500 --> 00:27:50,400 lends itself to this technology very well, they don't want to 483 00:27:50,408 --> 00:27:52,200 provide access to that active directory. 484 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,500 So you know, so hide it, right? Keep it behind the scenes. 485 00:27:55,700 --> 00:27:58,700 Command, I authenticate, and maybe this is even it could be 486 00:27:58,700 --> 00:28:02,100 as literal as going into HR, you know, and for your onboarding 487 00:28:02,100 --> 00:28:05,200 process and at that time they say, yep, your you and they 488 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,900 issue that credential and it lives in your wallet. 489 00:28:07,900 --> 00:28:12,900 It doesn't tell anyone anything other than, you know, you, I've 490 00:28:12,900 --> 00:28:16,500 got this association with my employer and so there's no, 491 00:28:17,100 --> 00:28:19,900 there's no information really to leak their secure. 492 00:28:19,900 --> 00:28:23,400 They're more secure than allowing you to go to active 493 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:27,300 directory, over some internet connection and in anything short 494 00:28:27,300 --> 00:28:29,500 of, you know, an encrypted connection VPN. 495 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,600 So, I mean, I think there's a lot of Technology advantages 496 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,700 that we could evolve into that are going to help tighten 497 00:28:35,700 --> 00:28:38,200 security and control that information, as well as 498 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:42,000 providing a reduced friction for user consumption. 499 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:43,900 I also think I mean, to your point. 500 00:28:43,900 --> 00:28:46,300 Jeff. I think that a lot of companies 501 00:28:46,300 --> 00:28:50,000 are followers, right? And so, but there are some 502 00:28:50,500 --> 00:28:56,700 companies that will they see a solution that is Better in some 503 00:28:56,700 --> 00:29:03,700 way or another, you know, be leaders in the that way. 504 00:29:03,700 --> 00:29:07,400 And, you know, I think if governments are, you know, 505 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,300 adopting this and it's some of the bigger players like Apple 506 00:29:10,300 --> 00:29:14,000 and Google started adopting, those then you'll see more. 507 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:18,900 I mean, certainly the company said, I tend to work with are 508 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:21,700 not looking to be bleeding edge, right? 509 00:29:21,700 --> 00:29:25,100 If you're doing Enterprise identity management, it's not an 510 00:29:25,100 --> 00:29:26,600 area. Where you want to take a lot of 511 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,800 risks. However, technology leader 512 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:33,400 companies, when they start to say this is important to we're 513 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:36,300 using it, other companies will follow soon. 514 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:41,500 Yeah, I agree with that. I think there is, you know, the 515 00:29:41,500 --> 00:29:45,300 and you're right. The Enterprise is pretty 516 00:29:45,300 --> 00:29:48,200 conservative with how they're doing this, which is why I 517 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:51,700 really believe it's important to build Bridges, from where, you 518 00:29:51,700 --> 00:29:54,700 know, from where we're at today into this new technology. 519 00:29:54,700 --> 00:29:57,200 So we're not asking. For lift and shift. 520 00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:01,100 Ironically, I think there's a huge Improvement to the SMB 521 00:30:01,100 --> 00:30:04,200 market and the smaller organizations that that don't 522 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,900 have the infrastructure and Staffing of some of these large 523 00:30:07,900 --> 00:30:09,700 Enterprise to protect themselves. 524 00:30:09,700 --> 00:30:12,700 I think this this, you know, even a even kind of a closed 525 00:30:12,700 --> 00:30:16,600 ecosystem for credentialing for their employees is is a huge 526 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:20,000 step forward if their employees can bring a and all a self 527 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:21,900 Sovereign identity and they don't have to build out a 528 00:30:21,900 --> 00:30:24,100 complex identity management infrastructure. 529 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,700 Instead, all they have to do Is associate a set of metadata, 530 00:30:27,700 --> 00:30:31,700 with some personal identity. There's, you know, there's a, 531 00:30:31,700 --> 00:30:34,100 that's a, that's a transformational thing as well. 532 00:30:34,100 --> 00:30:37,700 It gets them a lot more velocity and a lot more control over 533 00:30:37,700 --> 00:30:42,100 what's going on without without having to go and invest in 534 00:30:42,100 --> 00:30:45,600 these. Massive, I am systems that the 535 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:49,200 Enterprises is buying, so I think there's I think there's 536 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:53,500 some opportunity for for both sides there as well. 537 00:30:54,100 --> 00:30:57,400 One thing that this really You're staying and I think this 538 00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,800 is where I mean, I think this is what's going to help really lead 539 00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:04,200 to a lot of adoption as well as if we assume now that our 540 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:08,800 government credentials are being digitally issued and that's 541 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,000 going to happen, right? We're going to have there's 542 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,400 going to be the debates with, where they go and 543 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:15,300 interoperability, and all that stuff. 544 00:31:15,300 --> 00:31:18,200 We're going to have to figure that out. 545 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,800 And I think we figure that out by Leading instead of, instead 546 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:24,500 of waiting, right? We try to inform and guide these 547 00:31:24,500 --> 00:31:27,200 organizations and Enlighten them into the art of the possible 548 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:32,100 before they end up just building another, another set of silos 549 00:31:32,100 --> 00:31:34,900 that we have to that, we have to worry about tearing down some 550 00:31:34,900 --> 00:31:38,700 point in the future. But what really starts to happen 551 00:31:38,700 --> 00:31:41,600 is if I mean, think about onboarding an employee. 552 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:45,700 Now, if I have, if I know that you as a consumer, have a 553 00:31:45,700 --> 00:31:49,900 credential from the Social Security Administration, who by 554 00:31:49,900 --> 00:31:52,100 the way, is working on that very thing. 555 00:31:52,100 --> 00:31:57,100 And I know that you have a state Driver's license or at least I 556 00:31:57,100 --> 00:31:59,600 hope you have a state-issued driver's license and you come 557 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:05,400 into on board for HR maybe I want to validate so I can simply 558 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:10,300 present a proof request to you as a consumer and say we would 559 00:32:10,300 --> 00:32:14,900 really like to know your educational background. 560 00:32:14,900 --> 00:32:17,700 We want to know your degree status, you know we want to know 561 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,600 your state of residence, driver's license, just whether 562 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:23,100 you have it or not, whether it's valid. 563 00:32:23,100 --> 00:32:27,300 Maybe we ask for a confirmation of the Address or whatever, but 564 00:32:27,300 --> 00:32:29,500 it really is. It's a game-changer from an 565 00:32:29,500 --> 00:32:33,300 identity proofing perspective. And from an onboarding 566 00:32:33,300 --> 00:32:36,400 perspective, a lot of the stuff that we go through over and over 567 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:38,500 and over again. As we on board employees or we 568 00:32:38,500 --> 00:32:42,500 set employees up simply, you know, wouldn't be needed or will 569 00:32:42,500 --> 00:32:47,400 be much more easy to access and we don't have to create 570 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,100 replication of that information over over again. 571 00:32:50,500 --> 00:32:53,900 Instead, we just store an associate of record to a 572 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:58,800 decentralized Identity that we know of belongs to you and your 573 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:02,100 in your personal wallet and we can request information from 574 00:33:02,100 --> 00:33:05,100 that at any time. So it really provides a much 575 00:33:05,100 --> 00:33:09,500 more streamlined workflow and the big Power of using these 576 00:33:09,500 --> 00:33:13,100 credentials and credential based systems is not in the ability to 577 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:15,400 say. Okay, I'm going to issue you 578 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,300 this thing, and you can come back later and I'm going to ask 579 00:33:18,300 --> 00:33:20,800 you to present me that thing like a password, right? 580 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,500 Ami passwords. We all agree are. 581 00:33:23,500 --> 00:33:25,400 They should have been gone years and years ago and we're still 582 00:33:25,500 --> 00:33:28,000 Still, we're still fighting them but that's what a password is, 583 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:29,600 right? You can you give me this thing 584 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:31,400 and then when you come back I'm going to challenge you and ask 585 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:35,200 you for with credentials. I never have to give it to you, 586 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:36,400 right? I mean, we never have to do 587 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:37,900 that. All I have to do is all I have 588 00:33:37,900 --> 00:33:41,600 to know is what I'm asking for. So you come to my service? 589 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:43,600 If all I need is your email address. 590 00:33:43,700 --> 00:33:46,100 Why am I going to force you to create a new account and create 591 00:33:46,100 --> 00:33:47,400 a new password and all the stuff. 592 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:50,200 When I just say, you have a valid email address and if you 593 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:55,000 can satisfy that I let you in, so it really changes. 594 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,800 It changes a lot of things because now we don't have to 595 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:04,500 create an issue. Something for everything that 596 00:34:04,500 --> 00:34:07,000 we're trying to prove, all we have to do is know what 597 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:08,800 questions to ask that makes sense. 598 00:34:08,900 --> 00:34:13,400 Let's talk a bit about ID ramp itself as a product so I'm a 599 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:15,400 see. So and we get in the elevator at 600 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,400 the same time. What problems are you going to 601 00:34:18,408 --> 00:34:20,800 help me solve? Sure. 602 00:34:20,900 --> 00:34:28,699 So ID ramp is ID rope will Give you the ability to bring in any 603 00:34:28,900 --> 00:34:32,300 identity source so this can be an IM stack, it could be 604 00:34:32,300 --> 00:34:35,500 whatever you have and connect that with traditional 605 00:34:36,199 --> 00:34:39,600 Federation. Protocols Samo off, open ID 606 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:44,500 connect take your pick apis and we can provide credential 607 00:34:44,500 --> 00:34:47,900 issuance based on that metadata. So we can do. 608 00:34:47,900 --> 00:34:52,400 The example I used earlier was with something that's absolutely 609 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,000 possible. I can say all of people in 610 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:57,100 human. Arizona issue a credential for 611 00:34:57,100 --> 00:35:00,400 human resources and then and then I can ask for that. 612 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:05,800 So idea app also then provides the the other side of that 613 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:07,900 equation where I can figure that service. 614 00:35:08,300 --> 00:35:11,300 You know, I mentioned, I mentioned sales for Salesforce 615 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:16,800 today, doesn't know how to go and ask hyper Ledger or The 616 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,600 Sovereign Foundation Network, or they don't know how to build 617 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:22,700 that bridge into that into that system and ask for those 618 00:35:22,700 --> 00:35:25,300 credentials directly so idea, right? 619 00:35:25,500 --> 00:35:28,400 Provides tools and services to do that as well. 620 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:31,800 You go into Salesforce and you can just can just configure as a 621 00:35:31,808 --> 00:35:35,900 sample service or oauth or whatever put it back to ID ramp 622 00:35:35,900 --> 00:35:37,900 and ID ramp will do that translation for you. 623 00:35:37,900 --> 00:35:43,400 So, what we've built today is the bridge that will take an 624 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:49,200 Enterprise from a from a traditional, I am funnel based. 625 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:54,500 I am workflow process to a decentralized credential based 626 00:35:55,500 --> 00:36:02,600 In process with simple reconfiguration and and clicks. 627 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:06,300 So, we support that in a, you know, just kind of an a 628 00:36:06,300 --> 00:36:11,500 configuration pay as you go type model or we provide apis and 629 00:36:11,500 --> 00:36:14,400 then web hooks, you can bake that into native applications, 630 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:16,400 you know, or we can help you get there. 631 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:18,200 As I said, we're Steward and Trust anchors. 632 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:21,000 So we can take, we can take an organization all the way to 633 00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:24,500 standing up their own nodes and educating their staff on how to 634 00:36:25,500 --> 00:36:29,000 How to get closer to to building those things themselves. 635 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:34,000 So that's where ID ramp is is focused today and we have a long 636 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:38,900 Heritage of traditional I am we understand Enterprise, I am and 637 00:36:38,900 --> 00:36:44,500 the challenges that exist there very well and so we felt that it 638 00:36:44,500 --> 00:36:46,800 was our really our responsibility if we're if we're 639 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:51,100 out here saying credential based dish access management is, is 640 00:36:51,100 --> 00:36:54,700 this really cool thing that can help save you time and money and 641 00:36:54,700 --> 00:36:59,100 make your Make your business more more profitable and 642 00:36:59,100 --> 00:37:02,100 successful and secure. And we really had an obligation 643 00:37:02,100 --> 00:37:05,400 to build the tools and services that the Enterprise needs today. 644 00:37:05,700 --> 00:37:08,400 In order to dip their toes in the water and start using this. 645 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,900 So giving them the ability to just say, not. 646 00:37:11,900 --> 00:37:14,800 Just say, I want to take this one service and I want to take 647 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:18,800 these 10 users and let them log in with the distributor 648 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,300 credential an issue that might be distributed credential. 649 00:37:21,900 --> 00:37:24,800 That's really what we've built. So it's a way to really do your 650 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:27,200 own. Proof of concept and figure out 651 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:29,400 if the technology is right for you, it's think. 652 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,500 So. Where do I find talent to help 653 00:37:32,500 --> 00:37:35,000 me with this? Because I think there's this, 654 00:37:35,100 --> 00:37:39,800 this, I don't, it's a stigma or not, but watching is complex. 655 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:42,700 You know what do I need? Is an organization to dabble 656 00:37:42,700 --> 00:37:45,200 into this, right? Yeah. 657 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:49,100 And you're exactly right. It's it's growing the community 658 00:37:49,100 --> 00:37:53,100 of people that are knowledgeable about this is growing 659 00:37:53,100 --> 00:37:57,000 exponentially every day but the Exciting thing than that is the 660 00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:58,700 tools. The products and services are 661 00:37:58,700 --> 00:38:03,100 coming on board or really help the Enterprise and, and Beyond 662 00:38:03,100 --> 00:38:08,900 right to adopt this technology. So ID ramp.com, I mean, 663 00:38:08,900 --> 00:38:11,200 certainly we're willing to help those other organizations that 664 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:14,200 are building similar tools products and services, that will 665 00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:19,300 help the Enterprise really understand what the stuffs all 666 00:38:19,300 --> 00:38:22,400 about and how to do it. And like I said, the beautiful 667 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:24,000 thing is it's all open, you know? 668 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:26,200 I mean there's really no There's nothing close. 669 00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:29,200 There's nothing proprietary and what we're doing, if an 670 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:33,000 organization comes in and uses our technology or technology 671 00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:36,200 from from one of our competitors, that that's using 672 00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:41,300 the same underlying governance framework and underlying 673 00:38:41,300 --> 00:38:44,000 technology stack, there's absolutely nothing preventing 674 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:50,000 them from completely displacing, what they put in place with with 675 00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:52,600 ID, ramp with their own technology, just simply by 676 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:55,300 learning more and, and standing up their own. 677 00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:59,100 And so that's the real exciting thing as we give its future 678 00:38:59,100 --> 00:39:02,700 proofing, your investment because you're not walked into a 679 00:39:02,700 --> 00:39:04,400 single vendor, it's truly vendor agnostic. 680 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,800 So, what I run then my own blockchain infrastructure. 681 00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:09,900 If I'm ever ization, I want to get into this stand up my own 682 00:39:09,900 --> 00:39:11,400 notes. Yep, you could. 683 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:14,400 You could come to idea up and say, hey, we really want to be. 684 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,900 We really want to stand up nodes on, on sovereigns network, for 685 00:39:17,900 --> 00:39:20,100 example, and and make us a trust anchor. 686 00:39:20,100 --> 00:39:24,600 We go through some paperwork, you trade, some employees and 687 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:27,300 and stand it up. It up and you have the ability 688 00:39:27,300 --> 00:39:30,000 to issue your own credentials, build your own proofs. 689 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:32,800 Do everything you want to do directly with the network at 690 00:39:32,808 --> 00:39:39,300 that point. Okay what about some IGA focused 691 00:39:39,300 --> 00:39:41,600 use cases around blockchain? So identity Governor's 692 00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:43,600 Administration. Typically this is where 693 00:39:43,900 --> 00:39:46,000 automation of identities get built out. 694 00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:49,900 You mentioned you know tying things to an HR Source access 695 00:39:49,900 --> 00:39:52,300 review certification. Do you see any play with 696 00:39:52,700 --> 00:39:54,300 watching helping with that in the future? 697 00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:58,900 I do. And it's, it's hard to visualize 698 00:39:58,900 --> 00:40:00,700 all the different places that can go. 699 00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:07,800 But I think that, I think that anytime you have the user more 700 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:11,800 involved in the decision of what is being disseminated and where 701 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:16,200 that only, that only can improve your your governance. 702 00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:19,700 In fact, if you think of an example, where cash, what's one 703 00:40:19,700 --> 00:40:22,700 of the examples? I came out the other day, where 704 00:40:22,700 --> 00:40:25,500 you're buying a buying a stock Right. 705 00:40:25,500 --> 00:40:28,900 You're going to call up your local, Ed Jones, broker guy. 706 00:40:28,900 --> 00:40:31,200 And you're going to say, I want to buy, I want to buy a couple 707 00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:35,400 shares of Tesla because I think it's a good investment right 708 00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:37,500 now. And he says, all right great. 709 00:40:37,500 --> 00:40:39,800 I'll place that order for you and then and then it tanks and 710 00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:41,400 you're going wait a minute. I didn't do that. 711 00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:43,900 Right. So now is it's just really your 712 00:40:43,900 --> 00:40:48,400 word against his if you think about it, if you think about 713 00:40:48,500 --> 00:40:52,000 what we just went through and digital credentials and 714 00:40:52,300 --> 00:40:56,100 involving me as a participating party in, Now, think about how 715 00:40:56,100 --> 00:40:59,700 that workflow changes I can call and make that request and he can 716 00:40:59,700 --> 00:41:02,000 program that order. But before that order goes, I'm 717 00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:05,300 going to receive, I'm going to receive notification saying, 718 00:41:05,300 --> 00:41:09,100 hey, we're going to going to make this transaction on your 719 00:41:09,100 --> 00:41:11,300 behalf. Are you okay with it and I say, 720 00:41:11,300 --> 00:41:13,300 yep. And now you have, you know? 721 00:41:13,300 --> 00:41:15,900 Now I'm involved right. It's more than just well. 722 00:41:15,900 --> 00:41:19,300 Yeah, I called and I actually have skin in the game now. 723 00:41:19,300 --> 00:41:22,100 I'm literally confirmed that on a device. 724 00:41:22,100 --> 00:41:24,700 That's biometrically checked my, you know. 725 00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:28,300 My signature, we know that it's me that that made that request. 726 00:41:28,300 --> 00:41:30,300 So I think that's a game changer. 727 00:41:30,300 --> 00:41:33,500 And it really opens up a lot in the governance space to really 728 00:41:33,500 --> 00:41:38,200 helping organizations control who's doing what with their 729 00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:41,000 information. I can imagine casinos might be 730 00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:45,900 interested in that. Yeah, yeah, all right, well 731 00:41:45,900 --> 00:41:47,900 before I wrap it up here because you've given us certainly a lot 732 00:41:47,900 --> 00:41:51,000 to think about and just for the folks who are listening and know 733 00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:52,400 there was kind of a lot to cover today. 734 00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:55,300 So I'll be sure to put links for idear. 735 00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:59,700 Then some other information in the show notes, how should 736 00:41:59,700 --> 00:42:02,300 people get in touch with idear a Mike? 737 00:42:03,100 --> 00:42:06,400 Sure start with the website. We have a lot of good 738 00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:11,000 information out there and and contacts ID ramp.com. 739 00:42:11,300 --> 00:42:14,300 And you can always send an e-mail to info ID. 740 00:42:14,300 --> 00:42:16,400 Ramp.com somebody to get back in touch with you. 741 00:42:16,900 --> 00:42:20,100 We love talking to, we love talking to people about the 742 00:42:20,100 --> 00:42:21,900 technology. We love talking to companies 743 00:42:21,900 --> 00:42:25,200 about their potential interests and Synergy, so yeah. 744 00:42:25,300 --> 00:42:27,800 Please reach out there. Going to be any conferences 745 00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:29,400 coming up like gardeners. I am. 746 00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:31,800 Summit. Biggest, we are not going to the 747 00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:34,600 gardener, I am summit. We're going to be at the no 2020 748 00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:38,000 conference in an April, we're going to be at the connect with 749 00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:44,700 on next month, in Provo. And then I believe the next big 750 00:42:44,700 --> 00:42:48,400 one is probably I see in Europe will be over there. 751 00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:51,900 So yeah well and we'll I think we have a schedule of 752 00:42:51,900 --> 00:42:55,200 conferences out there. I'm not sure if we do right now. 753 00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:58,000 But check the website. All right well I think this is a 754 00:42:58,008 --> 00:43:02,000 probably a pretty good spot to leave it for this week as 755 00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:03,700 always. If folks out there listening 756 00:43:03,700 --> 00:43:07,100 have questions they can always get a hold of the podcast at 757 00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:10,100 questions at identity. The center.com want to thank 758 00:43:10,100 --> 00:43:11,700 Mike for my dear Aunt from joining us. 759 00:43:11,700 --> 00:43:14,300 Thank you very much, Mike also want to. 760 00:43:14,500 --> 00:43:16,400 Yeah, I also want to thank the identity team. 761 00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:18,300 I didn't come up with all these questions on my own. 762 00:43:18,300 --> 00:43:21,100 I'm not that smart. So I certainly crowdsource some 763 00:43:21,100 --> 00:43:24,000 things to think about as we kind of move forwards, want to thank 764 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:26,400 them for their questions. And then most of all want to 765 00:43:26,408 --> 00:43:28,500 thank everyone who's listening taking the time out of their day 766 00:43:28,500 --> 00:43:33,000 to listen into this. And thank you all for sharing 767 00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:35,200 and we'll talk to you guys in the next one. 768 00:43:38,700 --> 00:43:41,800 You've been listening to the identity at the center podcast 769 00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:45,600 to access all episodes visit identity at the center.com.