1 00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:11,160 This is identity at the center. Welcome to the Identity at the 2 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:12,960 Center podcast. I'm Jeff, and that's Jim. 3 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:15,080 Hey, Jim. Hey, Jeff, how are you? 4 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:17,920 Oh, not so bad yourself. Doing great, man. 5 00:00:18,080 --> 00:00:20,800 We're doing a Jim and Jeff episode today, so that makes me 6 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:23,840 happy. We have to hang out in person. 7 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:27,160 It's been a while. We got a couple conferences 8 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:29,680 coming up, so we'll get through a lot between now and the end of 9 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:33,360 the year. And one other thing I wanted to 10 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:36,080 mention. So I while I was away for a 11 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:38,880 couple days this week, I kind of fell behind on LinkedIn. 12 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:42,760 But I finally caught up with things on the flight home last 13 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:45,920 night and got some quick responses from people. 14 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:50,000 So they're a few shout outs for people who let me know they 15 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:53,080 listen and they really appreciate what we do. 16 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:57,880 So Adam, oh, Siobhan, I'm going to mess names of, I'm sorry, 17 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:03,160 Shubham Gharia and Alejandro Lowe Fresetti, if you guys are 18 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:05,280 listening. Thank you for the notes. 19 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:07,960 I mean, Jeff, I don't know about you, but when I get notes that 20 00:01:07,960 --> 00:01:12,320 people listen and that they thank us for what we're doing in 21 00:01:12,320 --> 00:01:16,160 the, you know, for the identity space or they let me know, hey, 22 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:18,680 I really enjoy the content or I'm learning a lot. 23 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:22,960 I mean, it means so much to me. Yeah, it's very, it's very cool. 24 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:25,280 I get those messages as well. What I find interesting is we 25 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:27,840 don't get the same messages. So none of those people messaged 26 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:30,160 me, but I have other ones. So I look at my list here like 27 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:32,680 people have emailed or sent me LinkedIn messages recently. 28 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:39,440 Jonathan, Judy, Isabella, Jesse Sadaf, Andy Kojo. 29 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:44,720 So yeah, it but it is very cool. Glad that people get something 30 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:47,600 out of this, whether it's, you know, they enjoy it or they hate 31 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:50,080 it and they hate listen or watch it, either way is fine. 32 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:54,200 I never get to hate ones. I'm I'm glad about that. 33 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:57,000 I mean, you know, LinkedIn people keep things pretty 34 00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:59,040 cordial. For the most part, yeah. 35 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:01,040 No, we've been pretty lucky. We've got to have a great 36 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:02,520 community, which you've always said, right? 37 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:07,680 The I am community is, is top notch as as I'll say so yeah. 38 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:10,520 And that's pretty much what this episode's all about is we get 39 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:12,280 questions a lot through our LinkedIn. 40 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:16,200 So we get stuff, kind of queue them up and kind of save them up 41 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:18,440 for a mailbag episode. And we'll kind of get through a 42 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:21,360 bunch of these that listeners have sent out over the last 43 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:22,520 probably at this point a couple months. 44 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:24,600 Because I think we had a couple earlier in this year and then we 45 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:28,000 had a run of conferences and episodes associated with that 46 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:29,520 and then guests and things like that. 47 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:32,800 So this is another way for us to catch up on, you know, those 48 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:35,640 kind of questions. Yeah, and you and I have been in 49 00:02:35,640 --> 00:02:38,040 this identity space for 20 years each. 50 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:42,760 We've been consulting for over a decade and one thing I know 51 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:46,120 about myself and I think you say this for you, Jeff, is we don't 52 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:47,560 know everything, right? That's. 53 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:49,920 What you're going to be. I know everything man. 54 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:51,760 Yeah, OK. That's why I said that in. 55 00:02:51,920 --> 00:02:54,080 Google really quickly I gave you. 56 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:57,080 An I gave you an opportunity to be humble. 57 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:02,720 But no, obviously you know that we don't know everything while 58 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:06,560 we have guests come on most episodes, but we do our best. 59 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:08,680 We're like the identity practitioners out there. 60 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:13,080 We're, you know, in the battle together and we're going to go 61 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:15,360 through our answers today doesn't mean they're they're 62 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:17,600 right answers to these mailbag questions. 63 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:21,280 If anybody disagrees or really likes to answer, that's another 64 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,560 reason to reach out or you know, we put all these episodes on 65 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:27,760 YouTube. We thought about as as audio 66 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:30,360 podcast, right. We started as an audio podcast 67 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:36,440 over six years ago, and most of our listener, most of our people 68 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:42,560 who consume this podcast, our listeners, but we also produce a 69 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:46,000 YouTube video for each one of these episodes that gives folks 70 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:50,000 an opportunity to go out and comment on an episode, a 71 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:54,240 particular episode, and ask question or say they like or 72 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:57,400 disagree with a point. I'd finally encourage that. 73 00:03:57,400 --> 00:03:59,760 I mean, I don't have a problem with somebody disagreeing with 74 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:01,680 me. That's what it's all about. 75 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:04,320 Yeah, just be respectful, that's all. 76 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:08,160 Stop putting a Bitcoin seed phrases that are obviously 77 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:10,320 scams. I'm constantly policing those 78 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:13,600 off of our off of our YouTube comments and stuff like that. 79 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:16,040 So but yeah, you know, gives us an opportunity. 80 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:18,200 So, you know, while you're listening and thinking about 81 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:20,079 that, hit it, you know, hit that like and subscribe button too. 82 00:04:20,079 --> 00:04:21,600 That obviously helps. You know, Jim and I grow the 83 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:24,560 channel and the podcast and get great guests, which, you know, 84 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:25,920 we've done an amazing job over the years. 85 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:28,480 And you know, Jim, that's all you getting, getting really cool 86 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:32,120 people to, you know, spend some of their time and, and their 87 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:35,360 thoughts with us on the air. It's been a pretty easy job 88 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:38,200 actually, because most of the folks I reach out to I it's 89 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:41,360 become an easier and easier job over time because the podcast 90 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:43,880 has grown. In the early days, it was people 91 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:47,840 like Darren Rolls, those people like Eve Mailer who agreed to 92 00:04:47,840 --> 00:04:49,800 come on this podcast that nobody knew about. 93 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:54,360 So but it's still a big coordination effort, obviously. 94 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:59,280 So I appreciate that, but we got some conferences coming up, we 95 00:04:59,280 --> 00:05:01,800 got some discount codes. We should probably at least 96 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:05,040 acknowledge that and then jump into things. 97 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:09,560 Yes, several conferences. See by the time people listen to 98 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:13,760 this on, will it be Monday, the 22nd, I believe maybe it's 21st, 99 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:16,840 22nd. I think the Philadelphia Cyber 100 00:05:16,840 --> 00:05:19,360 Security Summit will be on later in the week. 101 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:22,120 So that's Thursday and I will be there. 102 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:24,400 So I'm I think I'm moderating a panel. 103 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:28,440 I'm not quite sure yet, but I believe I will be and so I hope 104 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:30,760 to see some folks out there. I know a couple people who will 105 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:34,320 be there, but feel free to use this discount codes free get you 106 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:36,440 in. It's a pretty cool conference. 107 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:39,760 So this will be my third one third city that I've done this 108 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:42,760 year did Raleigh did Chicago a couple weeks ago, Raleigh a 109 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:45,520 couple weeks before that and then kind of closing out that 110 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:48,280 series for me, at least in Philly, but it's a pretty well 111 00:05:48,280 --> 00:05:50,680 run conference. It's a few 100 people. 112 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:53,280 So it's kind of like the right size to actually meet people, 113 00:05:53,280 --> 00:05:56,120 have conversations and because it's local in a specific, you 114 00:05:56,120 --> 00:06:00,400 know, city, you meet people in your space that are in, you 115 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:03,360 know, your kind of region and makes a little bit easier to 116 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:04,600 form connections and things like that. 117 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:08,240 So OK, forward to that and let's see after that. 118 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:12,000 I'm actually going to be at sale point navigate conference, not 119 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:15,000 this coming week, but I guess the following week, so you can 120 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:16,680 look for me there. I'll be there as part of the RSM 121 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:18,640 contingent, which everybody, well, not everybody knows, 122 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:20,760 everybody thinks we do the podcast is our full time jobs. 123 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:24,840 That's absolutely not the truth. That is our night and weekend 124 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:27,680 job. By day we work for RSM as I am 125 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:30,720 consultants, so helping people solve their digital identity 126 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:33,560 security problems. But I'll be there for the sale 127 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:36,160 point conference, probably somewhere around a booth. 128 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:40,040 I think I'm also running a, a newer game show that we have not 129 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:41,800 tried before. So it'll be kind of a test bed 130 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:43,720 for that. So if you're a listener, you 131 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:47,000 know, come stop by the RSM session at Cell Point Navigates. 132 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:50,720 Let's see. Authenticate with Fido Alliance 133 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:54,000 is coming up. So we're going to do Fido Feud 134 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:56,560 rematch. So you're going to take on Megan 135 00:06:56,560 --> 00:07:00,320 again, I'm not sure if you guys have figured out teammates yet, 136 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:03,600 but I know that there was a lot of people who expressed interest 137 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:06,080 when it was time to register for Authenticate. 138 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:08,080 So the Fight Alliance is a time to keep track of that. 139 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:11,120 And we've been working with Megan and Adrian and obviously 140 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:14,520 yourself to figure out OK, of the pool of people who express 141 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:16,480 interest. Who do you want to get on stage 142 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:17,800 and be part of that? I'm going to be the neutral 143 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:20,120 party. I am the host. 144 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:24,120 I'm the Steve Hardy without the long jacket or the mustache, but 145 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:27,120 I'll be coordinating it. Adrian and I are working on the 146 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:31,440 questions. So if you have not yet seen the 147 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:33,680 survey that went out from the Fight Alliance, I also put it 148 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:36,520 into the IT Pro conferences or maybe it was a general channel. 149 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:40,680 There is either way that people can submit answers. 150 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:43,720 So the questions are out there, but the only people who can see 151 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:46,560 the answers are myself and Adrian for the Fight Alliance. 152 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:49,760 So she and I are coordinating to make sure that, you know, this 153 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:53,520 is a a fair game, Jim, so that there's no cheating, no 154 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:56,960 allegations, nothing like that. Well, unlike, unlike last year, 155 00:07:56,960 --> 00:07:59,400 right, So. There wasn't cheating last year. 156 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:04,080 There was interpretation of answers that were maybe suspect, 157 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:07,080 but I'm. Going to give you my, my view of 158 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:10,240 things, right? I didn't feel like last year was 159 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:13,560 fair, but that was fun because last year really didn't count. 160 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:16,480 Last year was more of like a trial run. 161 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:19,160 This year, this is the first official year. 162 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:22,880 So we'll see who wins this year. I think it's going to be team 163 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:27,400 IDAC because this year is going to be completely fair. 164 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:32,039 It's going to be heads up Team IDAC versus team Fido. 165 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:34,520 And I mean, we know it's going to happen, right? 166 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:36,080 I mean, I hope I know what happened. 167 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:39,720 You're representing IDSC, so definitely need a better showing 168 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:43,280 than than last year. Look, in Megan's defense, she 169 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:45,480 walked away with the tiniest trophies we've ever seen. 170 00:08:45,560 --> 00:08:48,920 So her team has those. So we'll see. 171 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:51,560 I I love the snack talk, though. So Megan, if you're watching 172 00:08:51,560 --> 00:08:54,560 under listening, you know, feel free to respond comments below 173 00:08:54,560 --> 00:08:55,560 or maybe something I'll link to him. 174 00:08:55,560 --> 00:08:58,920 Maybe we can, you know, draw up some healthy competition was put 175 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:03,080 that way. You know, I, I think the biggest 176 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:04,800 thing that I wanted to throw out, so I knew you were going to 177 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:08,720 talk about one more conference coming up with Zimfosec World. 178 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:14,240 We really appreciate all of the partnership that all these 179 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:18,360 groups putting on these conferences have shown us, 180 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:24,160 especially, you know, the CRA with the, all the conferences 181 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:26,280 you mentioned, plus all the ones that are coming up. 182 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:30,040 I mean, it's another thing that's going on with the 183 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:34,240 conference or I'm sorry with the podcast that, you know, it's the 184 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:39,280 listeners, it's the guests, it's the partnership with different 185 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:41,880 conference organizers. Like we've pulled all this 186 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:45,600 together and it's it's all four of the listeners really. 187 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:49,000 That's why we do it. But it wouldn't be able to 188 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:52,400 happen without this partnership. So definitely grateful for all 189 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:54,680 of that. Yeah, shout out to especially 190 00:09:54,680 --> 00:09:58,520 Shirley at the CRA and Adrian at Final Alliance. 191 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:01,240 Those two have been really fun to work with. 192 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:04,040 And you know, the other reasons why we do fun things at 193 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:08,000 conferences, I'll be honest, I don't really want to give a talk 194 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:09,560 an identity. I feel like there's a lot of 195 00:10:09,560 --> 00:10:12,160 that already. I would much rather have a good 196 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:14,560 time and sort of, you know, be a little bit more on the 197 00:10:14,560 --> 00:10:17,000 entertainment side and, you know, try to relax and make the 198 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:20,360 conference something fun. And, you know, both Adrian and 199 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:22,520 Shirley have been awesome work with, they've both been really 200 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:25,600 open to new ideas, right, game shows and things like that. 201 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,320 So plus they're just fun people and, you know, great to work 202 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:30,240 with. So shout out to Shirley and 203 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:32,880 shout out to Adrian. You know, we've all been all 204 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:36,160 about the edutainment. There can be plenty of education 205 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:38,800 that you know, the, the folks are showing at the these 206 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:41,920 conferences and giving the presentations, whether it's 207 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:46,240 success stories or new ideas around architectures or trending 208 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:49,480 topics, they, they know them better than we do. 209 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:51,720 And so you're getting plenty of education. 210 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:56,720 So our sessions are more the entertainment variety. 211 00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:00,840 More of a pulse of of the people type thing, you know, what are 212 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:02,640 people thinking with the different, you know, game shows 213 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:04,320 that we've done and surveys and things like that. 214 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:06,440 So they're fun. I like to do them. 215 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:08,760 We'll do them when we until we get told we can't do them 216 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:10,440 anymore and then we'll figure something else out from there. 217 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:12,960 But you know, next thing you know, we'll have a Netflix 218 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:16,200 special, you know, IDAC, you know, after dark and it'll be 219 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:18,520 kind of like that midnight game show where it's just, you know, 220 00:11:18,560 --> 00:11:20,360 people pontificating and making jokes. 221 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:24,720 But yes, Speaking of CRA, Infosec World 2025, that's 222 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:27,840 coming up at the I believe it's the end of October that is in 223 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:30,440 Orlando. So we'll be there and recording 224 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:32,400 some episodes very similar to like Ideniverse. 225 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:33,400 I have not been to that conference. 226 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:35,160 I'm looking forward to it. I think it's more broader, 227 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:38,000 obviously information security, but guess what I am as part of 228 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:40,040 that world. So we're going to be there. 229 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:42,080 So I hope people come and check it out. 230 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:47,240 We got identifiers after that in DC, so be there for that as 231 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:49,280 well. That is in November. 232 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:52,400 And then I think closing off our conference Circuit of the year 233 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:55,560 with Gartner and the IM Summit in Grapevine, TX. 234 00:11:55,560 --> 00:11:59,440 So we met with our friend Rebecca a little earlier today 235 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:02,120 to kind of game plan through, you know, the game that we're 236 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:04,720 going to run there and that's going to be a fun one. 237 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:08,400 So lots of conferences, lots of different things are going on. 238 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:10,840 I didn't mention discount codes because they're hard to remember 239 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:13,360 what spot. But if you just remember one 240 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:16,720 thing I DAC podcast.com, just Scroll down. 241 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:19,440 Everything that I have that's available is going to be down 242 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:20,720 there at the Gartner 1 is not up yet. 243 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:22,280 I think that one becomes available in October. 244 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:24,560 So once October rolls around, there'll be a Gartner one edit 245 00:12:24,560 --> 00:12:26,360 as well. But check it out. 246 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:28,680 Great way to show support the show and show that we can, you 247 00:12:28,680 --> 00:12:32,240 know, have a good time and bring people to conferences and and 248 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:35,640 meet all the friendly faces that we, you know, see us still 249 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:38,520 images on LinkedIn and teams and other different things that 250 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:41,920 happen. Yeah, I was at a meeting this 251 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:45,480 week and kind of saw saw some people that I've been meeting 252 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:48,520 with in Teams. And then there's one person I 253 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:53,120 met who, you know, I've been on punny teams calls with and he 254 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:56,360 was like 6-7. And I was like, whoa, I didn't 255 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:59,280 realize you were that tall. You're talking about our friend 256 00:12:59,280 --> 00:12:59,960 Dan. Yes. 257 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:03,000 Everybody has the same height on on a team's window. 258 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:06,840 And then you get into real life, like, OK, wow, I didn't realize 259 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:09,080 Jeff was that short or, you know, Jim was that tall. 260 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:11,240 I'm not. I'm not really that tall. 261 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:14,960 Yeah, you're what, 6/2? Yeah, yeah, look, everyone is 262 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:17,360 tall when you're 5-6 like me so well, Dan. 263 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:19,760 Dan's like 6-7. Yeah, no, Dan was great. 264 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:22,520 Very tall guy. Yeah, he's an awesome guy too. 265 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:25,480 Yeah, so we did an episode with him not too long ago, Dan 266 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:28,400 Lauritsen, part of our series with RSM and so go back and 267 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:30,200 check that out. But that's very cool to see 268 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:32,320 people like that in in, in real life and and get their 269 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:34,360 autographs for being on the podcast, which is fun. 270 00:13:36,560 --> 00:13:37,800 All right, let's get into a mailbag. 271 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:41,400 We got a bunch of questions from people literally around the 272 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:44,640 world. So again, if people have 273 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:47,000 questions or they just want our thoughts on something, send them 274 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:50,880 to us on LinkedIn, drop us an e-mail, drop us a contact form 275 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:53,640 thing on our website. We try to queue these up from 276 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:55,680 time to time. The more we get and as we get 277 00:13:55,680 --> 00:13:57,640 gaps in our schedule where we can address them, you know, 278 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:02,760 that's kind of where this is at. So now with no more further ado, 279 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:05,560 let's get Jim's $0.02 on a couple of these questions. 280 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:08,520 I'll read off the questions, Jim, and then you give me your 281 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:11,440 thoughts on it and then if I have anything to add, I will and 282 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:12,560 we'll just kind of go through it that way. 283 00:14:12,560 --> 00:14:13,880 Is that cool sounds? Good. 284 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:15,440 Yeah, I'll do it. OK. 285 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:17,800 So first up, this is Matt in Maine. 286 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:20,960 He knows who he is. I know who. 287 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:25,480 He is right. How does a successful IM program 288 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:29,480 engage the broader IT department regarding key concepts? 289 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:32,640 So, additional context here. I recently volunteered to do a 290 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:36,440 short presentation in an architect forum on what SSO is 291 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:39,080 and how it works. This is the result of having a 292 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:41,720 conversation with a software architect who recommended to a 293 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:45,320 software owner that she worked with me to set up SSO on work 294 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:47,840 day. We've had SSO set up on work day 295 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:50,520 since we acquired it seven years ago, and this architect logs 296 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:52,320 into it weekly like everyone else. 297 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:57,280 Wow, a lot of context right there. 298 00:14:57,400 --> 00:14:59,960 That is a lot of context. Matt and I went back and forth 299 00:14:59,960 --> 00:15:01,160 and noticed. I'm not going to cut a keynote, 300 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:02,600 get into all the nitty gritty details. 301 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:06,720 But I guess before I even answer my first question is I'm not 302 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:09,880 sure if the person is an architect if they're not clear 303 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:12,680 on what SSO is. And the fact that they were 304 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:17,600 logging into it already and had been for seven years apparently 305 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:20,760 leads me to kind of wonder if there is some more education 306 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:23,680 that needs to be done around identity and access management 307 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:29,080 and maybe just general IT architecture networking. 308 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:31,680 I'm not sure what it is, but what are your thoughts on how 309 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:35,280 does the successful IM program engage the broader IT department 310 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:38,040 regarding key concepts when it comes to identity? 311 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:41,960 So hey, Matt, glad to get your question. 312 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:45,520 And I think the first thing it kind of goes to the point you 313 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:49,480 were making, Jeff, which is that, you know, Matt said I'm 314 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:51,680 doing a presentation through the IT department. 315 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:55,000 So we shouldn't start off with the assumption that because 316 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:58,480 you're in the IT department, you know how everything works. 317 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:01,800 Like you could be a software person, you could be a network 318 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:05,520 person, you could be a mainframe person, you could be, make this 319 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:09,360 a mainframe architect and he could run us in circles when it 320 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:13,880 comes to mainframe architecture. And he really doesn't care who 321 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:19,720 about he or she doesn't care who about, you know, single sign on. 322 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:24,960 Having said that, you know, I, I think you need to start with 323 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:29,680 some of the basics, you know, kind of like educating people on 324 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:32,840 what is the business value of single sign on. 325 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:37,760 I remember we used to run into questions early on in the single 326 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:42,320 sign on days like, OK, isn't it worse to give people one 327 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:47,280 username password to 100 systems than 100 username and passwords? 328 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:54,440 Because if they lose 1, the blaster is is limited to that 329 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:57,440 one system. I think the it's kind of like a 330 00:16:57,440 --> 00:16:59,880 psychology thing. If you have to manage 100 331 00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:05,839 usernames and passwords, you're probably using, you know, the 332 00:17:05,839 --> 00:17:08,880 same username password across multiple systems and your 333 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:12,920 ability to kind of provide all of the features that you need in 334 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:17,680 a holistic IM program like monitoring, like use your life 335 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:20,880 cycle management, like having the right authentication 336 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:23,720 policies and the ability to enforce them. 337 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:28,280 Those things probably go out the window for most of those 100 338 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:31,360 users and passwords. So it's kind of like here's why 339 00:17:31,360 --> 00:17:34,680 single sign on is good. Let me think, there are multiple 340 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,840 forms of single sign on. There's Samuel single sign on 341 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:46,040 and there is Oauth 2 or open ID single sign on. 342 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:49,240 So there's a browser based set of redirections. 343 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:51,680 So if you're starting to get into like application 344 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:56,280 architecture and kind of how these things manifest, whether 345 00:17:56,280 --> 00:18:00,680 it's like browser based or there's some back end token 346 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:05,240 sharing happening, I think that's a a big part of that 347 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:07,600 explanation. I just, you know, it depends on 348 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:11,360 who you're speaking to and as you start to whittle down that 349 00:18:11,360 --> 00:18:15,880 field to a smaller group, that's where you start getting into the 350 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:19,120 specific details. If you're talking to a big large 351 00:18:19,120 --> 00:18:20,640 audience, you have to kind of keep it. 352 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,880 I think even like a big large audience who is quote UN quote 353 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:28,840 IT, you need to keep it at A at a business level to start your 354 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:32,160 thoughts. I think this is an excellent 355 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:36,880 example of sometimes we take people in knowledge for granted 356 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:40,680 in the IM space, especially when you get surrounded into IT at 357 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:43,000 large. Look, not everybody knows 358 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:45,760 identity and that's fine, right? I think that's something that we 359 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:49,560 all need to think about is how do we educate and inform other 360 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:52,640 people in the organization as to what they're working on, stuff 361 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:56,680 like that. So for sure, you know, I maybe I 362 00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:58,840 was a little bit rough, like how does this person become anarchy 363 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,440 step without knowing SSO is I guess there's a possibility 364 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:04,880 there, but it's also a good reminder to say, OK, what has 365 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:09,920 the IAM program done to inform IT, whatever that looks like as 366 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:12,440 to what the IAM program has been doing, what its capabilities 367 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:15,440 are, what it's, you know, different features and 368 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:18,120 functionalities that have been rolled out so that they can, you 369 00:19:18,120 --> 00:19:20,160 know, be part of that messaging as well. 370 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:23,840 I think we focus a lot on end user training and making sure 371 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:27,720 the end user understands it. There's probably a really 372 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:31,680 significant Gray area when it comes to IT training for 373 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:35,160 identity and access management concepts, features and 374 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:36,360 functionalities and things like that. 375 00:19:36,360 --> 00:19:39,080 So I think it's a good opportunity to say, OK, we 376 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:41,800 noticed the gap here. How do we address it? 377 00:19:42,120 --> 00:19:44,800 Is it, you know, something where we need to have more 378 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:48,440 conversations with, you know, I'll call it IT in parentheses 379 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:53,880 or quotation Marks and making sure they understand what are 380 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:56,880 the different capabilities that the OEM program has and, and 381 00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:59,400 things like that. So I try to look at from the 382 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:03,080 aspect of, yeah, OK, what, what did we miss here and how do we 383 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:05,360 make sure that we account for that next time? 384 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:08,040 Yeah. I mean, there's all kinds of 385 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:11,840 goals that could come out of why you're doing that presentation 386 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:14,200 in the 1st place. One of the goals might be you 387 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:16,560 need to stop doing this shadow IT thing. 388 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:21,640 Setting up applications that are completely outside of the the 389 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:25,240 realm of our single sign on are completely outside the realm of 390 00:20:25,360 --> 00:20:28,040 how we do identity access management, logging in, 391 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:32,120 monitoring. You know, people understand like 392 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:35,800 why we use centralized single sign on multi factor 393 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:39,120 authentication. It may start to add up that hey, 394 00:20:39,120 --> 00:20:43,440 if I go out and set up a sales force account with my credit 395 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:47,360 card, that is not a good thing for the following reasons. 396 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:51,840 I mean, that's just smacking with policy. 397 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:54,640 Don't, don't go sign up for stuff that you're not prepared 398 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:56,720 to support, because we all know that they're going to continue 399 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:58,320 to do that. They're they're never going to 400 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:01,080 sign up for a service and then you ask for IT to help them out 401 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:02,680 down the road. That would never happen in the 402 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:05,560 real world, would it? Yeah, right. 403 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:09,560 All right, So hopefully, I know that was actually several months 404 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:12,480 back that Matt had sent that. So he and I conversed and 405 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:15,200 hopefully that helps Matt, you know, going forward. 406 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:20,840 Let's get to the next one here. Amara in India asks what are the 407 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:25,880 key factors that influence an individual's trust in a new 408 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:29,400 digital identity system? And what can governments or 409 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:33,560 organizations do to encourage wider adoption without being 410 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:35,520 overly intrusive? You. 411 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:37,760 Know you could go. First, good luck SO. 412 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:43,720 No, I, I know Amara too. And so I don't really know her 413 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:46,000 personally, but I know her from LinkedIn. 414 00:21:47,120 --> 00:21:52,240 I think a big part of building trust, it's just like any other 415 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:56,240 part of human interaction. It's, you know, trust is earned. 416 00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:00,640 So it does build over time. But I think they're kind of like 417 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:08,520 some fundamental concepts within identity or within technology in 418 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:11,640 general that help you earn trust. 419 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:15,440 And one of the first things is privacy, like knowing where your 420 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:18,440 personal data is going to end up. 421 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:25,320 Does the organization have a privacy statement? 422 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:29,280 Is it clear? Or is it one of those 20 page 423 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:34,160 documents like we can sell your information to third parties And 424 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,560 so it's the privacy, but it's also how you communicate it. 425 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:42,000 And then I think one thing that maybe takes that to the next 426 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,720 level because that's like a big area in the, a big topic in the 427 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:52,200 area of customer identity and access management is privacy and 428 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:54,920 consent. So it's also the consent of 429 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:58,960 saying, here's the data that I'm OK that you share, but I also 430 00:22:59,120 --> 00:23:01,320 have the ability to say forget me. 431 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:07,720 So a lot of the things that we saw driven in GDPR are still 432 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:11,000 very important and very relevant. 433 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,560 Whether you need to be in compliance with GDPR or not, 434 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,600 you'll be thinking about what were the drivers that that 435 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:23,360 influence the design of GDPR. And it's like what people expect 436 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:27,400 and why do people expect those things and how do those 437 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,000 influence whether or not you're going to have trust for the 438 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,200 organization? Now I also think, now let me 439 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:38,560 bolt on something to that, which is if you do suffer A breach and 440 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:42,240 many organizations do suffer a breach, how do those things get 441 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:45,880 handled afterwards? Do you try to cover it up or do 442 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:49,120 you, are you very transparent with your users and with the 443 00:23:49,120 --> 00:23:53,360 public in terms of what happened and what you're doing to rectify 444 00:23:53,360 --> 00:23:57,000 the situation? And for me, when I see that 445 00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,360 there's a cover up or it's a couple days, so there's any kind 446 00:24:00,360 --> 00:24:05,560 of communication, if people are left in the dark, I think that I 447 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:07,760 start losing trust for that organization. 448 00:24:09,360 --> 00:24:12,720 Well, you have to be careful about the word cover up because 449 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:17,160 that implies that there is some sort of, you know, conspiracy 450 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,840 that might be taking place. I think this is an area that a 451 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,960 lot of organizations struggle with is how do you report on a 452 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,800 breach? Frankly, most suck at it. 453 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:30,640 They're just not good. They either wait too long or 454 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,760 they share incomplete information or they share 455 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:38,280 information so quickly that the information is made incorrect. 456 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:39,960 When they shared it, they might have thought it was correct at 457 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,880 the time, but things change. And so I think breach response 458 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,160 and breach communications are one part of it. 459 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:51,160 But it comes down to the trust. I don't know if we'll ever fully 460 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:52,240 solve it. Just to be honest with you. 461 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:56,360 Like, I don't think we will ever fully solve it because they're 462 00:24:56,600 --> 00:25:01,320 the concept of privacy does not exist in every society, in every 463 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:04,600 country around the world. I don't know what it's like in 464 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:06,680 India, if that's specifically, you know, what she's asking for. 465 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:08,160 I don't know, you know specifically what they're 466 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,200 working on. But at any I can point to the US 467 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,040 as a reference at any given .50% of the population is for the 468 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:15,840 government and 50% is against it. 469 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:18,080 So and it doesn't matter who's in charge. 470 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,560 So that idea of trusts becomes OK, well, who do you trust and 471 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,560 why? And I just don't know if we will 472 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:29,560 ever get to the point where, you know, maybe trust is too loaded 473 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:31,280 of a word. You know, maybe it's more like 474 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:35,560 tolerate because I need it for, you know, a passport or a 475 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:37,760 driver's license or some other piece of information. 476 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:42,360 But I don't know if I don't know if there is really a spot where 477 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:47,760 we get to the point where like all of our identity data is in 478 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,360 the hands of 1 area. I think we're more headed to 479 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:53,960 more of a Federated model where some bits of information are 480 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,560 spread out a bunch of different, you know, networks, whether 481 00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,120 they're decentralized or not, that's a whole other bottle wax. 482 00:25:59,120 --> 00:26:03,840 But I, I, I don't know other than, you know, if you're, if 483 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,480 you're talking about internally an organization, how do you 484 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,400 build trust? If you make promises or make 485 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:14,400 commitments, do them, right? If you're going to miss dates or 486 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,680 whatever, communicate it, right? Don't, don't say I'm going to go 487 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,000 build something and then forget about it. 488 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,080 Or don't ask for feedback. Or if you get feedback, you 489 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:24,760 don't consider it after you ask for it, right? 490 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:27,520 I think this is just being what I would call just a decent human 491 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:30,640 being and say if you're going to do something, do they do I trust 492 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:34,120 that Jim is going to go off and do the thing that he's in charge 493 00:26:34,120 --> 00:26:36,960 of? I mean, yes, I hope so, right? 494 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:40,400 But the same time now, Jim, it's on you as the person that's 495 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,880 being trusted to do that. You've got to deliver if it's 496 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:46,520 something you can handle by yourself, awesome, great. 497 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,240 You have less dependencies the vast majority of the time. 498 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:50,480 Now you're going to depend on other people. 499 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,120 So now you've got other people that you're trusting to get 500 00:26:53,120 --> 00:26:56,880 their part done so you can get your part done to make part of a 501 00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:58,320 bigger thing, right? That's going to go out. 502 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,840 So, you know, I think there's, it's a little bit bloated 503 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,120 question, but that's kind of what I was thinking about when 504 00:27:03,120 --> 00:27:06,200 we said the word trust was like, oh, that's, that's a tough one. 505 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:07,760 It's a. Tough one. 506 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:12,560 I think, you know, your mind went directly to the government 507 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,400 situation. I think primarily the federal 508 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:17,800 government. It's just there's a history of 509 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:22,640 like, you know, distrust of the federal government that goes 510 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:27,600 back long before our time. But I think when you think 511 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:32,040 about, and I'm not saying, I'm not saying that in any way to 512 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:34,920 damn people who work for the federal government. 513 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,280 So let me make that clear. It's just, I think it's a fact 514 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:42,600 of life in the USI think when you think about that same 515 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:47,400 mindset to your local governments or your healthcare 516 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:51,880 provider or big tech or other companies that you trust with 517 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,840 your information, the context changes. 518 00:27:55,120 --> 00:27:57,800 And I think transparency is a big thing. 519 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:00,320 I think what's happening with your private data is a big 520 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:02,920 thing. And I think how you handle an 521 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,520 incident, if one does occur, it'd be a very big thing as 522 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:08,640 well. Oh, for sure. 523 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:13,680 I think it's a hard question to answer, yeah. 524 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:17,520 It's hard question the. Idealist in me is, yes, at some 525 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:21,360 point we'll figure out and get past all this because the 526 00:28:21,360 --> 00:28:24,040 benefits will be there that outweigh all the negatives. 527 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:26,720 And I think that's also part of the wider adoption. 528 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:30,480 Part of the question is why should I use this thing, 529 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,400 whatever this thing is, right? Whether it's a product, whether 530 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:35,280 it's something an identity rolling out, whether it's an 531 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:37,600 identity program is standing up. Why? 532 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:39,600 Why do I need this? Because that's the first 533 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,480 question anyone's going to have is OK, cool. 534 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:44,680 Like what does this do for me? And so I think you need to have 535 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,880 your messaging and understand, are you delivering something 536 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:52,840 that the organization both needs and wants? 537 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,160 Because if they don't want it, they're going to find ways 538 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:57,720 around whatever policies, whatever capabilities should put 539 00:28:57,720 --> 00:28:59,520 in place. So I think you really need to 540 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,400 think about, you know, the, what is your target market look like? 541 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,120 And are you delivering a product, in this case most 542 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:09,560 likely an IM product that people actually want to consume and 543 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:10,760 use? Yeah. 544 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:16,240 You know, I'm also wondering, you know, if part of what Amara 545 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:21,480 was getting at was decentralized identity, because I think in a 546 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:25,080 lot of people's mind, that's the solution of owning your own 547 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:29,880 identity and just allowing the attributes that you want to 548 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,800 share with any given organization to be shared. 549 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:37,040 My worry is that it starts getting to the point where it's 550 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:40,360 like, just like it is today with all these cookie policies. 551 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:44,760 Like you go to pay your electric bill and it's like you accept 552 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:49,440 the cookies or you don't and eat it all. 553 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:53,160 Day long. So that's the option that's. 554 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:54,880 Your cookie policy, right, Right. 555 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,000 Yeah. Yes, you're right. 556 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,760 I, and some of this too, again, goes back to trusts. 557 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:04,440 I picked on the government because I think that's the the 558 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:05,920 easiest target, at least for me to think about. 559 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,040 But the same applies to any social network. 560 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:11,240 It applies to education, applies to healthcare, applies to 561 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:13,280 finance. That's why I don't think it's 562 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:15,760 going to end up being like 1. And I hate to use the word, the 563 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:19,640 B word, but one blockchain, 1 decentralized identity, one 564 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,880 decentralized Ledger, let's call it, right, that stores with us. 565 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:27,080 I think we're going to end up with several and you're going to 566 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:31,320 trust certain ledgers with certain pieces of data, but I 567 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,080 find it highly unlikely that there will be 1 Ledger to sort 568 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:37,640 of rule them all if you want to take a, a token reference to 569 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:40,760 that one. And so no, go ahead. 570 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:43,280 I was. Going to say, I think you used a 571 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:48,320 great example there with social media slash big tech and I think 572 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:53,680 that certain companies have over time damaged their reputation in 573 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:59,280 terms of your privacy so much that rebuilding trust they 574 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:03,080 happen to rebuilt trust it's and there's others that I think have 575 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,560 done a better job over time. And I'm not going to name names, 576 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:10,440 but because I suppose the one with the e-mail that's going to 577 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,880 come from it. But I think that look, once you 578 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:17,200 damage trust, it takes a long time to rebuild it. 579 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,840 And if you really damage it, the words like you're selling 580 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:26,280 people's private information out the back door, that's really 581 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,560 hard to make up from it. So I think being very clear 582 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,800 about what you're doing with people's data and giving them 583 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:37,880 the ability to opt out of that, it is just fundamentally key. 584 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:40,000 Yeah. And then? 585 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,960 Do you trust that when you click that box that says don't sell my 586 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:44,840 data, they're actually honoring it? 587 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:46,760 Well then. Yeah, yeah. 588 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:48,520 But if there's. One way to be overly intrusive, 589 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,680 it's to do things with people's data that they that they didn't 590 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:53,360 sign up for that they're not aware of. 591 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:57,360 So good luck tomorrow. I, I don't know if that helped 592 00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:58,640 or not. I feel like we both got a little 593 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:01,160 bit of soapbox there. But, you know, the, the idea of 594 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:04,400 trust and getting things rolled out is, is challenging. 595 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:08,120 And I'm going to focus my answer back more on like, if you're in 596 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:10,000 an enterprise Oregon organization, you're trying to 597 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:14,040 roll something out, then, you know, deliver on your 598 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:15,320 commitments. Yeah. 599 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:17,400 OK, so let's get to the next question. 600 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,440 This one is from Sophie in France. 601 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,960 For a country or a large organization looking to launch a 602 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:27,360 new digital identity program, what are the most common 603 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:29,720 practical challenges they will face in the first year? 604 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:34,360 How can they plan for and address issues like technical 605 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:38,520 integration with legacy systems, managing data migration, and 606 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,440 ensuring the system can scale to millions of users? 607 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:44,840 OK, so millions of users. That's a very large 608 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:46,680 organization. Or maybe this is a customer 609 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,480 solution, but where do you want to start with that one? 610 00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:54,440 You know, again, I'm not sure if this is going to be the specific 611 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,240 answer that Sophie's looking for, but when I think about 612 00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:02,080 launching a new IM program or initiative, I think of a couple 613 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:05,440 things. One is being the picture of 614 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:07,600 where you're wanting to go, like what is the vision? 615 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,360 What is it that you're trying to accomplish? 616 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:14,400 So kind of making sure all that is architected out at whatever 617 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,960 level you can and making sure that you're communicating that 618 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:20,200 effectively to your stakeholders. 619 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:26,120 They test number one, I think #2 is kind of what goes along with 620 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:29,120 that, which is getting stakeholder alignment because 621 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,400 you're going to have to, you know, rank an IM program. 622 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:37,400 This isn't 4050 years ago where things slowed from the top down. 623 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:41,920 Organizations are much more organized and kind of a matrix 624 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:45,320 type organization. So you really can't get anything 625 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:48,200 done of significance on your own. 626 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,160 You need to have buy in, you need to work with others. 627 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:54,840 So getting that buy in kind of building that, in other words, 628 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:58,920 the politics of it all. And then the the last thing is 629 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:03,640 like when you start to shift into execution, I don't think 630 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:07,680 having like a Big Bang phase one approach is the right approach 631 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:09,639 anymore. I think it's kind of like you 632 00:34:09,639 --> 00:34:12,520 have to design around getting into production with something. 633 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:16,960 I think it's that you have to get these, what do you call it, 634 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,520 like small wins or low hanging fruit people like to call it, 635 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:23,520 it's not always the easiest thing and you just go after the 636 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:26,880 easiest low hanging fruit thing. You know, that sometimes is the 637 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:30,920 right move because you have to start earning some St. tread. 638 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:35,600 So kind of what I did was when I was, you know, prior to my 639 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:41,080 consulting days, my first IM program, I had to, I had some 640 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:45,320 very skeptical application owners that said, all right, 641 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:49,679 well, you know, we might turn over authentication to you, but 642 00:34:49,679 --> 00:34:53,199 we're not willing to turn over authorization. 643 00:34:53,199 --> 00:34:56,280 We still consider that to be part of the application. 644 00:34:56,639 --> 00:34:59,320 And as you know, like authentication, authorization, 645 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:03,680 IM tools are designed to handle that as kind of core sweet spot 646 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:08,560 and kind of delegating that out to every application to be a 647 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:11,720 snowflake is not really the best approach. 648 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:16,320 But if you say, all right, well, I'm going to accept this 649 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:20,800 skepticism and I'm going to be really successful at launching 650 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:24,560 authentication, you start to build, you know, the word from 651 00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:27,680 the last question, trust with those stakeholders. 652 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:32,040 And now you can kind of leverage that trust to say, all right, 653 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:34,520 let's keep going. Let's kind of go for that big 654 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:38,800 vision that we've been talking about and kind of targeting from 655 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:41,760 the very beginning. So those are my initial 656 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,440 thoughts. Yeah, I think there's a lot that 657 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:45,960 can go wrong and it will go wrong. 658 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:49,200 And so be ready for that, especially in your first years, 659 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:52,080 you're getting something rolled out is be flexible and build in 660 00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:57,240 time or capabilities or ideally both to address all the things 661 00:35:57,240 --> 00:35:59,720 that you didn't think of when I say you, meaning the 662 00:35:59,720 --> 00:36:01,960 organization, the program, whatever that looks like. 663 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:05,680 When it comes to rolling this out, there will be things that 664 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:09,120 will come up, they will come up early, they will come up in the 665 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:10,960 middle and they will come up right before you launch. 666 00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:15,040 So be ready for it. And then I think, you know, the 667 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:17,560 politics of getting things rolled out is also challenge. 668 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,040 You need to get buying and support from a lot of different 669 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,720 people in the organization to get things done, whether it's 670 00:36:22,720 --> 00:36:26,000 scope, whether it's getting applications integrated into 671 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:30,840 your into your platform, you know, whether it is, you know, 672 00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:33,320 different data pieces that you want to pull in, right? 673 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:37,360 All that stuff requires partnership with other parts of 674 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:39,880 the organization to get that. And so, yeah, you've got to 675 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:42,480 build trust. It can't just be, you show up 676 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,320 and say here, I need this data and they're going to give it to 677 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:47,200 you. They wouldn't be doing their 678 00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:50,280 jobs if they didn't question, well, what do you need this for? 679 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:52,400 Why are you using it? What are you doing with it? 680 00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,800 And how are you going to protect my user experience and my users 681 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:58,960 to make sure that my system doesn't break all valid 682 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:00,520 questions, right? So you've got to be able to 683 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,440 address, you know, all of that. Yeah. 684 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:06,480 And if your response is those aren't your users, those are the 685 00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:09,280 organization users, you're missing the point. 686 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:13,240 The point is like you don't want to be fighting with everybody. 687 00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:17,520 You need to kind of as much as possible build alliances with 688 00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:21,120 the folks that, hey, maybe they're giving you a hard time. 689 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,960 This is really, I think we say, you know, anybody, you can come 690 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:28,520 from any background, then be an IM program manager. 691 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:31,800 But I think the people who make good IAM program managers 692 00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:34,480 realize that, you know, just because they don't get along 693 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:38,760 with somebody doesn't mean I've got to fight them to, you know, 694 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:41,880 get them to do what they should be doing or do what's right. 695 00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:45,800 Put the organization goals in mind and what you have to 696 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,080 accomplish. And if sometimes you have to 697 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,080 bite your tongue, then that's just the way it is. 698 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:54,720 Yeah, I mean, you can go and fight everybody if you want, but 699 00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,480 real hard time, first of all, making any friends and getting 700 00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:01,280 anything done. So find, you know, areas that 701 00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:05,240 you can align on and honestly address the questions that come 702 00:38:05,240 --> 00:38:06,320 up. I think it's the other thing 703 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:08,080 too, before you're not going to have all the answers. 704 00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:11,320 That'll be part of the things that you miss as you go through 705 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:12,560 this. It happens to everybody. 706 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:14,480 It's a lesson learned for next time. 707 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:16,840 And you add that to your checklist for the next time. 708 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:19,040 And then they'll be new things. You add those to the checklist, 709 00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:23,160 Jim and I have like a 15 step checklist just for recording 710 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:26,160 this podcast because each thing on that on that checklist, 711 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:28,160 something has happened to cause it to be on there. 712 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:31,840 I joke with our guests. It's like the the the warning on 713 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:34,040 the shampoo bottle that says don't drink shampoo, right? 714 00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:37,320 Jim's holding up his Airpods case are very early episodes. 715 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:40,640 He was constantly flicking his, his Airpods, you know, the case 716 00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:42,480 and it was driving me crazy. And so there was a line at him. 717 00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:45,280 Jim, throw your iPods case across the room so it doesn't 718 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:48,400 tempt you, right Though it's OK to get smarter. 719 00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:51,640 It's OK to get better. And I think recognize that you 720 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:54,520 don't have all the answers. There will be things that are 721 00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:57,360 not able to be answered and that's OK. 722 00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:00,240 Just make sure that you understand that and you can you 723 00:39:00,240 --> 00:39:02,560 have viable alternatives or plans you can work around with 724 00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:06,360 it. OK, next question. 725 00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:11,000 We got two more here, Jonas. In Germany, in many parts of the 726 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:14,000 world, a significant portion of the population doesn't have a 727 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:16,480 smartphone or reliable Internet access. 728 00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:20,560 How can digital identity systems be designed to serve these 729 00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:24,480 offline populations, ensuring that digital inclusion doesn't 730 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,240 become a barrier to accessing essential services like 731 00:39:27,240 --> 00:39:29,960 healthcare or banking? Another good one. 732 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:32,240 Thanks, Jonas. Jim, where do you want to start 733 00:39:32,240 --> 00:39:34,120 with that one? People don't have access. 734 00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:39,120 By the way, these questions have been fantastic. 735 00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:43,200 I think it's a very real issue, and I think it's even a more 736 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:48,720 real issue for governments. You know, Jeff, I think a lot of 737 00:39:48,720 --> 00:39:52,080 times when we're working with science, like, oh, there's some 738 00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:56,000 small percentage of the population that doesn't have 739 00:39:56,000 --> 00:40:00,000 smartphones and we usually come up with like a small workaround. 740 00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:05,360 I read an article recently about I think it was, well I'm not 741 00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:09,200 sure what nation it was in, but it was somewhere in Africa and 742 00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:14,360 it was actually mentioned that a lot of the citizenry. 743 00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:18,320 Chooses to have flip phones rather than smartphones because 744 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:22,120 of the power consumption and they can keep a, a flip phone 745 00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:25,440 active for like a week on one charge. 746 00:40:25,720 --> 00:40:29,520 So it's a, it's a big thing. There's also scenarios I think 747 00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:33,280 that we've learned about where they're like clean rooms or 748 00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:38,680 things like prisons where folks can't bring in soft tokens. 749 00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:43,360 So I think one thing is that, so it's like sizing up what is your 750 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:46,200 issue? Is it that one 2% of your user 751 00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:51,920 population is a much larger, you know, I'm not, I'm not going to 752 00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:56,600 sit here and make a case for multi factor authentication 753 00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:59,560 using SMS. But I do think multi factor 754 00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:05,880 authentication using SMS for say medium risk type access, medium 755 00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:11,200 assurance use cases is something that could be considered. 756 00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:18,360 So for example, if the data that you are securing is only your 757 00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:20,160 data, right? So in other words, there's no 758 00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:25,160 privilege access going on. I think an SMS might in some 759 00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:27,160 cases. It obviously depends on what 760 00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:32,480 that data is, but the overall risk of that access, the overall 761 00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:35,520 requirement for assurance of who's logging in. 762 00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:39,800 You could go for a lower assurance use case and a lower 763 00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:43,160 assurance form of authentication. 764 00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:49,520 If you have a very small user population with higher risk 765 00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:54,880 access, consider using heart tokens, UV keys, or some other 766 00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:58,760 form of heart token like an RSA token, something like that. 767 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:04,600 But I, you know, I think those are probably some of the, the 768 00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:06,760 key scenarios. Like are you looking at a large 769 00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:10,560 user population that doesn't have smartphones where you can 770 00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:12,680 do soft tokens and authenticator apps? 771 00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:17,000 Or are you looking at a very large, a very large group or a 772 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:20,520 very small group? And what is the requirement for 773 00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:23,800 the level of assurance? Are these privileged 774 00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:27,120 administrators? Are these people who have access 775 00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:31,320 to a lot of data, such as data, or are they just accessing their 776 00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:33,920 own data? Maybe it's a rewards program, 777 00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:37,800 something like that. Hey, SMS is probably going to 778 00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,280 work. And by the way, SMS works on 779 00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:42,480 flip phones as well. So those are some of the 780 00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:47,000 thoughts that come to my mind. I don't have a good answer for 781 00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:49,920 this because the last I checked and I did some research on this 782 00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:53,640 actually from a stats perspective to see about let's 783 00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:57,160 see, 1/3 of the world's population does not have 784 00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:01,320 Internet access. So roughly 2.6 to 2.7 billion. 785 00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:06,040 And these are stats from bank myself and Statista or Statista, 786 00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:07,320 I'm not sure how you pronounce the website. 787 00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:11,760 So I kind of looked at this, but basically a third of people do 788 00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:15,280 not have Internet access. So if I don't have Internet 789 00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:20,640 access, how do I do anything in today's world and not get left 790 00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:23,000 behind? That is the billion dollar 791 00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:25,440 question because I think this is something we also discussed in 792 00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:27,480 Germany when we're at EIC earlier this year. 793 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:30,800 One of our podcast, and I don't remember exactly where it came 794 00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:34,480 up in those conversations, but was how do you connect the 795 00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:38,680 unconnected and cell phone? Sure. 796 00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:43,040 I think the stat I saw was like 88% of the people have a cell 797 00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:45,200 phone doesn't really differentiate between a 798 00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:47,560 smartphone and a dumb phone as we'll call it. 799 00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:50,600 So there is a lot of work to go there. 800 00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:53,680 I don't think it's viable to say, well, I'm just going to 801 00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:57,320 ship on Ubikey like that doesn't make sense to do what they don't 802 00:43:57,320 --> 00:43:59,880 have a computer going to deal with that Ubikey right. 803 00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:05,520 So I think I think it's a real problem The the answer I I don't 804 00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:07,200 know what it is. I, I don't know if I have a good 805 00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:11,080 answer for Jonas here because it's, it's a question that I see 806 00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:14,080 answered and I'd love to hear from anybody who has ideas on 807 00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:15,880 this. I think there was a project 808 00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:19,120 called Worldcoin or something like that where Sam Altman had 809 00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:22,760 some sort of like retinal eye scanner thing that he was 810 00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:25,360 sending to all different cities around the world to do some sort 811 00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:27,840 of like in person identity verification. 812 00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:30,960 I don't know enough about it, but it seemed to me like that 813 00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:34,400 wasn't a good solution. So I don't know what the answer 814 00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:37,840 is If you, if I don't have Internet and I and I don't have 815 00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:43,520 a phone, you know, you know, I'm going to get, they're going to 816 00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:45,160 get. I just jumped to scenarios. 817 00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:48,720 Here, which is that you do have Internet, but I mean it's a good 818 00:44:48,720 --> 00:44:51,400 question like where, what is your Internet access? 819 00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:54,440 Is it your flip phone? Is it like kind of a browser? 820 00:44:54,720 --> 00:44:57,320 And do you remember going into the browser on your flip phone 821 00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:00,400 when flip phones were evolving? It was pretty rough. 822 00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:04,520 You had to hit the five key like 3 times to get to the third 823 00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:06,280 letter on that button. Yeah, A. 824 00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:08,880 Little T9 predictive text. I mean, you're talking to wrong 825 00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:11,360 person with that because, you know, I rocked Windows Mobile 826 00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:14,680 way, way back in the day. So, you know, before that we had 827 00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:16,440 Palm and stuff like that. But you're totally right. 828 00:45:16,720 --> 00:45:19,920 And I would argue probably the vast majority of people don't 829 00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:22,520 have computers. They probably only access the 830 00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:25,840 Internet on their phone and. And if. 831 00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:28,920 They don't have a a relatively modern smartphone and I'd I'd 832 00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:31,680 say you know something that's running either iOS or most 833 00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:35,160 likely Android because iOS is mostly AUS thing. 834 00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:38,440 Most people are running an Android phone of some sort. 835 00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:42,040 They may be several years out of date then they may not have all 836 00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:44,480 the security patches. They may be prone to all sorts 837 00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:48,280 of backdoors and things that get left behind even from the OS 838 00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:51,600 makers where they just say, yeah, it's been 7 years of 839 00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:53,600 updates, It's been five years of updates. 840 00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:56,400 We just, we're not going to patch those anymore. 841 00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:59,480 And so that leaves not only a, a, a large percentage of the 842 00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:03,400 population with extremely limited functionality from an 843 00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:05,360 access standpoint, they don't have the latest security 844 00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:08,280 patches. And so they are ripe for, you 845 00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:11,160 know, a lot of problems and, and people take advantage of them. 846 00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:15,640 Yeah, One thing that came to mind is we're talking about 847 00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:19,680 people don't have the Internet access was maybe kiosk is part 848 00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:23,400 of the answer, but it's it's all part of the answer, right. 849 00:46:23,720 --> 00:46:28,800 It's the identity practitioners on the ground of, or technology 850 00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:33,360 practitioners really even more broadly, solving these problems. 851 00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:37,040 Shout out to them because you have to take all these parts and 852 00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:41,240 pieces and wire together what your solution is going to be. 853 00:46:41,240 --> 00:46:45,840 And it may not be perfect. I will say that, you know, when 854 00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:49,680 you're a government trying to address the population, you, 855 00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:53,720 you're always striving for as perfect as it can be, as 856 00:46:53,720 --> 00:46:57,360 inclusive as it can be, leaving out large segments of your 857 00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:01,680 population is not, not fair, right? 858 00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:07,200 And so, and I don't say that to not the people who are coming up 859 00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:09,160 with these solutions. Obviously they're doing their 860 00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:14,360 best, but that is the challenge. Yeah, I think it's, you know, 861 00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:16,720 this is the word inclusion comes in. 862 00:47:16,720 --> 00:47:20,040 It's like how do you design systems that are inclusive of as 863 00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:23,840 many people as possible for the people who can't be included? 864 00:47:24,240 --> 00:47:28,560 What are the organization's governments, whatever that looks 865 00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:31,280 like, doing to bring those people with them? 866 00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:33,520 Because I'm sure it doesn't make sense. 867 00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:35,440 Like if I was building on a system and say, OK, well, we're 868 00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:38,200 always going to have 1/3 of our population never able to use 869 00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:42,080 this product like that is that sounds stupid to me. 870 00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:45,160 Like from a from like even just on making money, capitalistic 871 00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:46,760 kind of approach. But even from a coverage of the 872 00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:48,360 government, supposed to be government of all the people. 873 00:47:48,720 --> 00:47:53,680 What are you doing to bring that third up to at least some level 874 00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:56,040 of parity to be able to access a service? 875 00:47:56,040 --> 00:48:00,000 Because if I don't do that, the other 2/3 of my audience are 876 00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:03,840 never going to reap the full benefit of a 100% solution or a 877 00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:05,480 solution as more people take advantage of it. 878 00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:08,240 You know, we look at mobile driver's license, for example, 879 00:48:08,240 --> 00:48:11,640 here in the US we're what a decade it feels like into this. 880 00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:17,840 And I, I think it's only what 1415 states that have it only 35 881 00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:20,600 or whatever more to go. So it means we're still decades 882 00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:23,920 away from that because not everybody has gotten on board of 883 00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:25,800 supporting that, you know, that concept. 884 00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:28,800 So I think it's AI think it's multi pronged approach. 885 00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:30,720 I think we need a ton of solutions, but I also need to 886 00:48:30,720 --> 00:48:33,520 think we look at the problems say, OK, why don't these 887 00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:35,200 populations have Internet access? 888 00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:39,480 What are we doing to give them some level of access so they can 889 00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:42,880 access resources for people who don't have cell phones or have 890 00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:45,720 older cell phones? What are we doing to either 891 00:48:45,720 --> 00:48:47,680 replace or update those phones, whatever. 892 00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:51,040 And hey, this all comes down to money and taxes and that makes 893 00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:52,320 everyone really happy all the time. 894 00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:54,480 So I'll just leave it at that point. 895 00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:57,560 But there are so many factors here that it's it's it's almost 896 00:48:57,560 --> 00:49:00,320 impossible for me to even have a coherent thought about it. 897 00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:03,600 Do you have a digital driver's license right now? 898 00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:06,480 Nope. Not available in North Carolina. 899 00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:10,360 When I was at the airport yesterday, I saw a lot of people 900 00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:14,600 using them and I had technology envy big time. 901 00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:17,640 Yeah, I mean, and look, I'm a nerd. 902 00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:20,200 I want as much things, you know, as I can digitize as much as 903 00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:21,800 possible. I don't write anything down. 904 00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:24,360 Everything is notes that I type. I can type that so that I can 905 00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:26,320 write. So I'm with that. 906 00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:30,480 You know, we, we had the REAL ID here in the US you know, that 907 00:49:30,720 --> 00:49:34,000 theoretically was supposed to launch in May when we were at 908 00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:35,760 EIC. And, you know, that's been 909 00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:39,320 postponed several times because we've only had 20 years to get 910 00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:40,800 that right. And we still haven't figured out 911 00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:42,840 how to do that. And at least here in North 912 00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:45,280 Carolina, you know, trying to get an appointment with the DMV 913 00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:47,600 takes literally months. And of course, if you're the 914 00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:49,960 kind of person to waste the last second to get anything done, 915 00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:53,480 yeah, Now you can't board a plane because you have a 916 00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:55,480 reality. So they've actually like relaxed 917 00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:59,960 restrictions because we don't have our, you know what together 918 00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:05,400 to support that. OK, I'm going to get off my 919 00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:07,040 soapbox in that one because I'm starting to get angry. 920 00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:10,000 Rachel, in Canada, this is the last one. 921 00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:12,040 Oh, this won't be controversial at all. 922 00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:16,720 Biometric data like fingerprints or facial scans is often used in 923 00:50:16,720 --> 00:50:18,920 digital identity systems because it's so unique. 924 00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:22,880 What are the fundamental pros and cons of using biometrics for 925 00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:25,160 identity verification? And what are the main security 926 00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:28,400 considerations organizations must address when storing this 927 00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:32,080 kind of sensitive data? OK, biometrics, not 928 00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:34,960 controversial at all. How do you want to respond to 929 00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:38,560 Rachel? Well, if she asks about the pros 930 00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:43,080 and cons, I think the pros are increased security, increased 931 00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:47,760 convenience. I love using fingerprint on, you 932 00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:49,920 know, rather than having to type in the password. 933 00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:55,840 And I think it's more more secure than relying just on 934 00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:59,560 passwords. I think the risks are, you know, 935 00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:03,680 if that data were to fall into the wrong hands risk that, you 936 00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:07,640 know, you're being surveilled. I think those are some of the 937 00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:12,400 key risks. You know, I think that the best 938 00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:18,960 practices for managing it well, one thing is it could keep the 939 00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:23,960 the biometrics on the device rather than uploading it to use 940 00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:27,920 some kind of central server. So you see a lot of solutions 941 00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:31,800 keeping the biometric on the device and then communicating to 942 00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:34,440 the back end with some secure channel. 943 00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:41,280 I think that if you do have to put it on the security channel 944 00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:45,560 now you're very dependent on that organization doing a good 945 00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:48,360 job of securing your biometric data. 946 00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:51,360 So you're hoping that they're doing something like tokenizing 947 00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:57,520 it and things like that. So high level response to that 948 00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:00,280 question is a good question. I mean, it's, you know, you see 949 00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:02,440 it propping up more and more every day. 950 00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:07,240 And I think that it's got, it's getting to the point it's like, 951 00:52:07,240 --> 00:52:11,280 well, you know, it's definitely a train that is too far out of 952 00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:14,680 the gate to stop. I think that's a good thing. 953 00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:19,480 But I think these questions on, you know, how secure is my data, 954 00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:23,080 They're just completely legitimate questions. 955 00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:25,240 Yeah. It seems kind of like a running 956 00:52:25,240 --> 00:52:27,040 theme here with some of these questions is trust. 957 00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:29,960 Do you trust wherever the state is being stored? 958 00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:32,760 Look, I like biometrics. I think it's a great technology, 959 00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:34,320 a great solution. It's easy. 960 00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:37,400 It's, you know, you, you can't forget your face as much as 961 00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:40,320 maybe I might want to. Your face is with you all the 962 00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:41,640 time. Or your fingerprint, right? 963 00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:43,680 Or your voice or whatever that may be. 964 00:52:43,720 --> 00:52:45,640 Is it perfect? No, of course not. 965 00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:48,840 Nothing is. But is it better than, you know, 966 00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:50,560 a password? Heck yeah. 967 00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:53,560 I mean, how many people want to keep remembering passwords or 968 00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:56,640 have to change them or have to use upper or lower and then you, 969 00:52:56,640 --> 00:52:58,680 you know, have all the different problems with that. 970 00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:03,120 So there is an obvious Bennett to biometrics with the 971 00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:07,880 assumption that the biometric data is being processed and 972 00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:12,920 stored securely and that there is some transparency how it's 973 00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:15,560 being used. Again, it's your data. 974 00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:18,960 So what happens if your face gets stolen? 975 00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:22,880 I can't really go change my face as much as I want to, you know, 976 00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:26,160 this is this is it. So if that biometric data 977 00:53:26,160 --> 00:53:29,200 becomes compromised somehow and someone's able to duplicate it, 978 00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:32,440 whether it's, you know, figure out how to unencrypt the 979 00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:36,400 information or whatever it may be, that's a real problem. 980 00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:40,800 And we need to have some ideas around how do we make sure that, 981 00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:44,280 you know, there's some, some indicator somewhere that says, 982 00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:47,400 you know, Jeff's face is compromised in more ways than 983 00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:50,080 one, right? So how do we, you know, how do 984 00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:51,240 you address those sorts of things? 985 00:53:51,240 --> 00:53:54,440 Same thing with fingerprints. You know, voices can be altered, 986 00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:55,240 right? All that stuff. 987 00:53:56,040 --> 00:54:01,120 So it's a very sticky situation. I think in the end, benefits are 988 00:54:01,720 --> 00:54:04,720 good and it gun comes down to trust. 989 00:54:04,720 --> 00:54:07,440 Yeah, If you put everything to a centralized database and then 990 00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:11,520 that centralized database gets breached, what are you going to 991 00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:11,720 do? Add? 992 00:54:11,720 --> 00:54:17,680 To it, this whole new concern, which is that of deep fakes, I 993 00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:23,920 can, you know, create an AI avatar of your face, of your 994 00:54:23,920 --> 00:54:29,080 voice, maybe not your thumbprint, but you can see this 995 00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:32,560 is a big time concern. Then quantum computing. 996 00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:35,480 How's that going to affect it? One thing I would say is like, 997 00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:38,080 you know, you and I are very good about talking about these 998 00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:41,560 topics and more or less the abstract. 999 00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:48,680 We have the sponsors spotlight episodes where our partners, 1000 00:54:48,680 --> 00:54:52,400 our, you know, technology vendors come in to talk about 1001 00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:55,600 their specific solution, how they solve these problems. 1002 00:54:55,840 --> 00:55:00,000 And we try to keep those episodes educational on, Hey, 1003 00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:04,800 here's the the topic in the industry, as well as giving the 1004 00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:10,160 opportunity for our sponsors to talk about how they solve that 1005 00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:12,200 specific problem with their technology. 1006 00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:16,160 We also try to keep some entertaining as well. 1007 00:55:16,160 --> 00:55:20,640 So I'd say if you've kind of heard any of the topics today, 1008 00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:22,800 if you're coming from a technology vendor and you're 1009 00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:26,360 like, guys, you need to talk about you fill in the blank, 1010 00:55:27,120 --> 00:55:30,200 reach out to us. You know, we we should talk 1011 00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:34,320 about the sponsor spotlight episodes, but none of what we 1012 00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:36,120 talked about so far has been sponsored. 1013 00:55:37,120 --> 00:55:39,680 Yeah, I almost sound like a like that was a shameless plug there 1014 00:55:39,680 --> 00:55:42,400 for more sponsors. But there are a lot of options 1015 00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:48,120 in this space and you just, there's no silver bullet, you 1016 00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:52,240 know, as of at least September and recording September 19th of 1017 00:55:52,240 --> 00:55:55,080 2025, there's a lot of really good options. 1018 00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:57,720 And I think layering those options is the approach here to 1019 00:55:57,720 --> 00:56:02,600 make sure that you try to get as many people involved as possible 1020 00:56:03,240 --> 00:56:06,000 served in one way or another with whatever capability makes 1021 00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:08,160 the most sense. And just understand and know 1022 00:56:08,160 --> 00:56:09,600 that you're not going to be able to get everybody. 1023 00:56:10,160 --> 00:56:12,640 And then, you know, some of it is going to be under control. 1024 00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:15,080 Like, I can't solve every single problem in the world as much as 1025 00:56:15,080 --> 00:56:17,840 I want to. There are other things that need 1026 00:56:17,840 --> 00:56:20,080 to happen to make that, you know, to make that problem 1027 00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:22,320 become something that is solvable. 1028 00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:27,960 And it may take days, months, years, decades, lifetimes, you 1029 00:56:27,960 --> 00:56:29,600 know, but we see that. But progress marches on. 1030 00:56:29,600 --> 00:56:31,880 Sometimes it doesn't move as quickly as we want it to, but it 1031 00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:34,960 does move on. And you know, hopefully people 1032 00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:37,000 can can take some sort of solace in that. 1033 00:56:37,080 --> 00:56:40,280 I feel like it's a little of a downer these last couple 1034 00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:42,480 questions, but hopefully that helps. 1035 00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:46,480 Yeah, One thing I just, you just reminded me I'll I'll be quick 1036 00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:53,800 is and maybe I won't be so quick, but is that a lot of 1037 00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:55,360 times talking about the happy path. 1038 00:56:55,560 --> 00:56:58,840 So whether it's like the biometric authentication, things 1039 00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:01,200 like that, it's the unhappy path. 1040 00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:05,520 It's how do I call the help desk and say I need my password to 1041 00:57:05,520 --> 00:57:09,040 reset things like that. That's how the breaches are 1042 00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:12,160 primarily taking place today. It's social engineering. 1043 00:57:12,160 --> 00:57:15,280 If you can take out the social, if you can take out like the 1044 00:57:15,280 --> 00:57:18,520 fishing, then all they have left is the social engineering. 1045 00:57:18,520 --> 00:57:24,240 If you're, if your main process is too hard to hack, make sure 1046 00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:26,240 that your help desk isn't getting hacked. 1047 00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:32,360 Make sure that you've got enough controls at the place where you 1048 00:57:32,360 --> 00:57:35,280 can get socially engineered to let somebody in your 1049 00:57:35,280 --> 00:57:37,680 organization is basically open the front door. 1050 00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:41,440 Do what you can to solve that problem. 1051 00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:44,720 And a lot of times that's process and there's a lot of 1052 00:57:44,720 --> 00:57:47,160 technology out there that can support that as well. 1053 00:57:48,200 --> 00:57:50,120 Yeah, you've seen a number of those things come through. 1054 00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:52,920 And chances are the way you're going to get breached is through 1055 00:57:52,920 --> 00:57:56,360 a human social engineering gives up a password, uses a bad 1056 00:57:56,360 --> 00:57:59,480 password, you know, clicks the MFA prompt that we said we'll 1057 00:57:59,480 --> 00:58:01,680 solve all of our problems. And yet somebody goes and says, 1058 00:58:01,680 --> 00:58:05,800 yeah, sure, go ahead, right. There's just you can't, you 1059 00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:08,640 can't ignore the human factor. And so people will unfortunately 1060 00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:11,040 always be the weak link, at least until the all the AIS take 1061 00:58:11,040 --> 00:58:13,000 over and then we don't have to worry about it. 1062 00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:14,560 They'll just tell us what we can and can't do. 1063 00:58:14,640 --> 00:58:16,880 So I'm surprised we didn't have an AI question really in this 1064 00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:18,880 bunch, but that might be refreshing for people. 1065 00:58:19,520 --> 00:58:20,880 Yeah, right. For sure. 1066 00:58:21,880 --> 00:58:25,240 All right. Let's wrap things up ending on a 1067 00:58:25,240 --> 00:58:27,400 lighter note. We were kind of pontificating 1068 00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:31,280 before we hit record here what we want to go with, and I think 1069 00:58:31,680 --> 00:58:35,040 we started down the air travel route of problems that you and I 1070 00:58:35,040 --> 00:58:36,800 have experienced. And maybe some of these are 1071 00:58:36,800 --> 00:58:39,720 recent, maybe not, but let's start there and let's maybe 1072 00:58:39,720 --> 00:58:41,840 treat this a little bit like we're ahead of time. 1073 00:58:41,840 --> 00:58:44,120 But Festivus, you know, we've got the airing of the 1074 00:58:44,120 --> 00:58:47,000 grievances. Let's just start with generally 1075 00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:52,000 speaking, what are some air travel etiquette things that 1076 00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:57,040 people should be aware of when they're on a plane or maybe in 1077 00:58:57,040 --> 00:58:58,840 an airport or something on those lines? 1078 00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:00,920 Let's get some education out there. 1079 00:59:01,320 --> 00:59:06,760 OK, I think First off, you learn etiquette probably over time or 1080 00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:12,120 but some of it's just the basic human decency. 1081 00:59:13,680 --> 00:59:18,120 You know, don't take off your shoes and stink up the plane. 1082 00:59:18,120 --> 00:59:21,040 Don't eat sauerkraut on the plane. 1083 00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:25,480 Don't do things that are going to gross other people out or are 1084 00:59:25,480 --> 00:59:27,680 inconsiderate of the people around you. 1085 00:59:28,320 --> 00:59:32,440 And now I want to talk about one specific thing that I've seen 1086 00:59:32,440 --> 00:59:38,040 happen more and more recently, and it really irks me, which is 1087 00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:42,840 here's how planes unload people by row. 1088 00:59:43,240 --> 00:59:46,440 People in the front of a plane, usually if the X is on the front 1089 00:59:46,440 --> 00:59:48,360 of the plane, get off first, right? 1090 00:59:48,360 --> 00:59:52,440 And then it's row by row. And if somebody like said, go 1091 00:59:52,440 --> 00:59:55,080 ahead, go get off in front of me, fine. 1092 00:59:55,520 --> 00:59:59,400 However, if you think that you're going to just push your 1093 00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:04,080 way to the front of the line or but that is tremendously rude 1094 01:00:04,640 --> 01:00:08,000 and we can't be friends, well. Hard stance. 1095 01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:10,000 There can't be friends. I agree. 1096 01:00:10,160 --> 01:00:13,320 I think it's just a thing. I I don't see that very often. 1097 01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:16,120 I think what I typically see more and I, and I will defend 1098 01:00:16,120 --> 01:00:21,120 this practice is if you've got a tight connection, usually the 1099 01:00:21,120 --> 01:00:24,160 airline is aware of that and they ask people to stay seated 1100 01:00:24,160 --> 01:00:27,480 to say, hey, let the people with the tight connections deplane 1101 01:00:27,480 --> 01:00:29,880 first so they can get out there. And I've been part of that group 1102 01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:31,880 before. And I can tell you as someone 1103 01:00:31,880 --> 01:00:35,200 who was on a tight connection, as in me literally running 1104 01:00:35,200 --> 01:00:39,000 through the Atlanta airport to make my flight to Amsterdam, I 1105 01:00:39,000 --> 01:00:41,600 greatly appreciate it. You know, being able to skip 1106 01:00:41,600 --> 01:00:44,280 even the four or five rows that I had to get to the front 1107 01:00:44,320 --> 01:00:46,600 because I was already kind of, you know, near the front anyway. 1108 01:00:47,360 --> 01:00:50,680 The problem I have with it is all of a sudden everybody's got 1109 01:00:50,680 --> 01:00:55,000 a tight connection. And so people who are obviously 1110 01:00:55,000 --> 01:00:58,920 not, you know, underneath, under that sort of duress tend to take 1111 01:00:58,920 --> 01:01:02,720 advantage of the situation. So have a heart, you know, think 1112 01:01:02,720 --> 01:01:04,040 of it as if you were in that position. 1113 01:01:04,040 --> 01:01:07,120 If you've got plenty of time, you know, let those people pass. 1114 01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:09,920 If you're one of those people, make sure they understand like, 1115 01:01:09,920 --> 01:01:10,760 hey, I've got to take connection. 1116 01:01:10,760 --> 01:01:13,000 Do you mind if I, you know, get in front of you? 1117 01:01:13,360 --> 01:01:16,880 You can do that all as you're taxing to the gate right? 1118 01:01:16,880 --> 01:01:18,160 Doesn't have to be like right that second. 1119 01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:20,960 Say hey, talk to the people around and say hey. 1120 01:01:20,960 --> 01:01:22,880 Just FYI got a tight connection is OK. 1121 01:01:22,880 --> 01:01:26,320 If I get in front of you, 99% of the time people are cool. 1122 01:01:27,120 --> 01:01:28,720 Yeah. And so that should be a 1123 01:01:28,720 --> 01:01:30,240 relatively straightforward thing I. 1124 01:01:30,240 --> 01:01:32,560 Totally agree with you. I've been on both sides of it as 1125 01:01:32,560 --> 01:01:34,720 well and I've stayed put in my seat. 1126 01:01:34,720 --> 01:01:37,720 If I didn't have a tight connection, I've gotten up and 1127 01:01:37,720 --> 01:01:40,480 taken advantage of it wherever you need to. 1128 01:01:42,040 --> 01:01:47,280 Yeah, but I think it's the me first mentality that bothers me. 1129 01:01:47,280 --> 01:01:49,680 And you see it on the roads a lot of times where it's like, 1130 01:01:50,120 --> 01:01:54,400 are you got a queue of cars and someone's like, oh, well this 1131 01:01:54,400 --> 01:01:57,400 lane is free. I'm going to go all the way up 1132 01:01:57,400 --> 01:02:00,560 until they go down those two lanes. 1133 01:02:01,040 --> 01:02:03,680 Me first. Or someone sees that you're 1134 01:02:03,680 --> 01:02:06,600 backing out of your spot and they're just like, no, I'm 1135 01:02:06,600 --> 01:02:09,360 going. Or you turn on your turn signal 1136 01:02:09,360 --> 01:02:12,600 and the person speeds up so you can't switch lanes. 1137 01:02:12,880 --> 01:02:14,960 Me first. I don't like that. 1138 01:02:16,040 --> 01:02:20,240 Be considerate of your of your fellow humans, that's all. 1139 01:02:20,240 --> 01:02:22,640 OK, I'm, I'm OK with that. That's, that's a stance I can 1140 01:02:22,640 --> 01:02:25,880 get behind. Where do you feel about people 1141 01:02:25,880 --> 01:02:31,240 standing up when the when they get to the gate, immediately get 1142 01:02:31,240 --> 01:02:34,240 to the gate and people stand up automatically even there's 1143 01:02:34,240 --> 01:02:37,360 really nowhere to go? That drives. 1144 01:02:37,360 --> 01:02:41,240 People crazy for some reason I don't quite get it, but it seems 1145 01:02:41,240 --> 01:02:43,280 to be a common thing that people complain about is why is 1146 01:02:43,280 --> 01:02:45,680 everybody saying even if they're like row 30 all the way in the 1147 01:02:45,680 --> 01:02:49,120 back, you know back of the bus people stand up immediately when 1148 01:02:49,120 --> 01:02:51,160 they land I. Don't know everybody's reason 1149 01:02:51,160 --> 01:02:53,920 for doing what they do. That doesn't seem to bother me. 1150 01:02:54,960 --> 01:02:58,080 I had a flight yesterday from Orlando to Denver. 1151 01:02:58,480 --> 01:03:00,640 Is 4 hours as in the middle seat? 1152 01:03:01,400 --> 01:03:05,160 My legs were cramped up by the end. 1153 01:03:05,280 --> 01:03:09,200 I couldn't wait to stand up, but I had a middle seat wasn't able 1154 01:03:09,200 --> 01:03:12,800 to stand up until like I literally walked off. 1155 01:03:12,800 --> 01:03:16,040 But yeah, that doesn't that one doesn't bother me too much. 1156 01:03:16,040 --> 01:03:19,840 I don't see how that really infringes on other people. 1157 01:03:20,040 --> 01:03:23,160 Unless your your goal is to get your bag and to move up two 1158 01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:26,640 rows. Then I think it's me first 1159 01:03:26,640 --> 01:03:31,920 mentality and I don't like that. Yeah, I think it's I, I get, you 1160 01:03:31,920 --> 01:03:35,240 know, the older I get, it's like, I've been sitting for X 1161 01:03:35,240 --> 01:03:36,680 number of hours. I need to, like, stand up and 1162 01:03:36,680 --> 01:03:38,640 stretch my leg, especially when you're crammed into these tiny 1163 01:03:38,640 --> 01:03:40,520 little airplane seats that nobody fits into. 1164 01:03:41,080 --> 01:03:43,520 So I get it. I don't have a position on it, 1165 01:03:43,520 --> 01:03:45,960 but I thought I'd throw it out there because I see it commonly 1166 01:03:46,520 --> 01:03:50,680 on, you know, like the Delta subreddit, which I see from time 1167 01:03:50,680 --> 01:03:51,880 to time is like, why are these people staying home? 1168 01:03:51,880 --> 01:03:54,400 And like, cares, you know, they're not going anywhere 1169 01:03:54,400 --> 01:03:56,080 faster typically than anyone else. 1170 01:03:56,480 --> 01:03:57,760 Usually they're stuck behind everyone else. 1171 01:03:58,320 --> 01:04:00,840 You have to see those videos. Sometimes people post and it's 1172 01:04:00,840 --> 01:04:04,640 like someone takes off their shoe and puts it on the arm 1173 01:04:04,920 --> 01:04:05,960 like. Gross. 1174 01:04:06,280 --> 01:04:10,000 I haven't run into anybody that's that inconcerate yet, but 1175 01:04:10,000 --> 01:04:12,680 that is nasty. Yeah, it's. 1176 01:04:12,720 --> 01:04:15,680 Pretty gross I had. One issue where somebody behind 1177 01:04:15,680 --> 01:04:20,160 me had their barefoot on my like armrest on the window. 1178 01:04:20,200 --> 01:04:24,320 And so the person's gross big toe and it was not a, it was not 1179 01:04:24,560 --> 01:04:27,840 a a nice big toe. It was a pretty gnarly looking 1180 01:04:27,840 --> 01:04:30,320 one. And you know, I put my elbow 1181 01:04:30,320 --> 01:04:32,920 there and then, you know, I'm end up moving and it kept 1182 01:04:32,920 --> 01:04:35,640 showing up there. And so, you know, I just started 1183 01:04:35,640 --> 01:04:39,480 like, you know, elbowing it and you know, stuff like that. 1184 01:04:39,560 --> 01:04:42,640 And I eventually I eventually got the hip, but just gross. 1185 01:04:42,640 --> 01:04:48,600 Keep your shoes on, people. You got your little space and 1186 01:04:48,600 --> 01:04:53,800 just think about like the people around you is that. 1187 01:04:54,320 --> 01:05:00,560 I think that is the two things that I've learned in my decades 1188 01:05:00,560 --> 01:05:06,120 of travelling. 1 is be considerable of other people and 1189 01:05:06,120 --> 01:05:10,800 then the other is like manage and maintain your temper because 1190 01:05:11,280 --> 01:05:14,800 things happen during travel. You're sitting on the the runway 1191 01:05:14,800 --> 01:05:19,960 for two hours and it's the plane track that's being filled with 1192 01:05:20,320 --> 01:05:23,960 exhaust fumes and you're just like angry. 1193 01:05:25,480 --> 01:05:27,160 I mean I would be. Pretty angry about that too. 1194 01:05:27,160 --> 01:05:29,880 Like like let's come on, let's let's figure this out. 1195 01:05:29,880 --> 01:05:31,280 But. Yes, it happens all the time 1196 01:05:31,320 --> 01:05:33,360 though a slow burn. Is. 1197 01:05:33,360 --> 01:05:43,000 Is preferable and you just have to somehow find a way to keep 1198 01:05:43,000 --> 01:05:49,080 your cool and realized that this is going to happen sometimes. 1199 01:05:49,320 --> 01:05:51,360 How about the times where you're like, you're sitting in the 1200 01:05:51,360 --> 01:05:53,760 airport, they delay. This happened to you and I. 1201 01:05:53,760 --> 01:05:55,440 We were both in the Atlanta airport. 1202 01:05:55,440 --> 01:05:59,080 They delayed, delayed, delay. It's 11:45. 1203 01:05:59,080 --> 01:06:02,360 They finally cancel. You're rebooked to the 6:00 AM 1204 01:06:02,360 --> 01:06:07,120 flight and we can't pay for your hotel tonight because weather. 1205 01:06:07,440 --> 01:06:10,200 And you know, it wasn't weather. It wasn't weather where you're 1206 01:06:10,200 --> 01:06:11,840 going. It wasn't weather where you are. 1207 01:06:13,200 --> 01:06:15,600 You could fly off the handle and be angry. 1208 01:06:15,600 --> 01:06:18,040 It's really not going to get you anywhere. 1209 01:06:19,480 --> 01:06:22,480 Yeah, these things are going to happen in your career of travel. 1210 01:06:23,440 --> 01:06:26,360 Yeah, I think people who travel a lot probably understand it 1211 01:06:26,360 --> 01:06:29,600 about the people who don't. It's just these are things that 1212 01:06:29,600 --> 01:06:31,440 happen. You know, it's an odds game. 1213 01:06:31,440 --> 01:06:35,760 You might go 100 trips that are totally fine and another person 1214 01:06:35,760 --> 01:06:38,160 might go 100 trips and every single one was a disaster. 1215 01:06:38,840 --> 01:06:42,840 So you just never know. I have the Flighty app on my 1216 01:06:42,840 --> 01:06:46,280 phone, which is a great iOS app for anybody who is interested in 1217 01:06:46,280 --> 01:06:48,520 like their air travel and kind of keep things track. 1218 01:06:49,080 --> 01:06:51,480 And so I have all my flights in there that goes back back to 1219 01:06:51,480 --> 01:06:57,160 2010 and all time. I have lost 125 hours from 1220 01:06:57,160 --> 01:07:02,800 delays since this has been tracking 11 this year 2024, I 1221 01:07:02,800 --> 01:07:06,640 lost 33 hours of time because of delays with flights. 1222 01:07:06,640 --> 01:07:09,320 Now some of that was hurricane related where I was like gone 1223 01:07:09,320 --> 01:07:11,880 for three, you know, essentially 3 days, which didn't really 1224 01:07:11,880 --> 01:07:15,080 count on that part of it. But yeah, it, it's, it's going 1225 01:07:15,080 --> 01:07:20,120 to happen and it's just, you know, Goose Frappa deal with it. 1226 01:07:20,440 --> 01:07:22,280 Go into a moment of Zen or whatever it might be. 1227 01:07:23,120 --> 01:07:25,720 You have to. You have to or it's going to 1228 01:07:25,720 --> 01:07:28,840 ruin your life. So quick story, I was flying 1229 01:07:28,840 --> 01:07:31,560 back from Orlando yesterday. We were both in Orlando for 1230 01:07:31,640 --> 01:07:35,640 company conference and I, I boarded the flight and I'm good 1231 01:07:35,640 --> 01:07:39,480 and I'm on a window seat on my flight from Atlanta to Asheville 1232 01:07:40,080 --> 01:07:44,320 and plane is boarded. You know, everybody's on 1233 01:07:44,320 --> 01:07:47,640 essentially at this point. And I get the, the flight 1234 01:07:47,640 --> 01:07:50,640 attendant comes back and says, hey, you've been upgraded. 1235 01:07:52,440 --> 01:07:54,760 Like, OK, I'm like, I'm already in the window seat. 1236 01:07:54,760 --> 01:07:57,520 There's two people sitting next to me like the point is 1237 01:07:57,520 --> 01:08:01,040 literally ready to go and they couldn't have figured that out 1238 01:08:01,040 --> 01:08:04,000 like before. So shockingly I declined the 1239 01:08:04,000 --> 01:08:05,840 upgrade because I was like, I'm not going to make these people 1240 01:08:05,840 --> 01:08:11,360 stand up to move up like 5 rows into 2D or whatever it was in. 1241 01:08:11,360 --> 01:08:16,240 So I was like just next time tell me sooner. 1242 01:08:16,319 --> 01:08:19,800 Don't wait till like the boarding door is closed to. 1243 01:08:20,040 --> 01:08:22,520 Somebody else and they took 10 minutes to move up there. 1244 01:08:23,880 --> 01:08:29,319 No, the, the, the seat was empty, but I just, I felt bad 1245 01:08:29,319 --> 01:08:31,680 because it was like these two people sitting next to me. 1246 01:08:31,680 --> 01:08:34,000 I'd already gotten comfortable and got my stuff kind of set up 1247 01:08:34,000 --> 01:08:38,000 and was like I. Don't want to if it was a. 1248 01:08:38,000 --> 01:08:41,800 Longer flight, Absolutely, but for a 38 minutes or a 45 minute 1249 01:08:41,800 --> 01:08:43,359 flight? You didn't do that. 1250 01:08:43,520 --> 01:08:44,520 Yeah, I don't. Know oh I'm not. 1251 01:08:44,560 --> 01:08:47,160 I'd be ashamed. Of the old, yeah, if it was, if 1252 01:08:47,160 --> 01:08:49,240 it was a flight more than an hour, I would have done it. 1253 01:08:49,399 --> 01:08:53,720 But at Atlanta, Nashville is, you know, 45 minutes, maybe 50 1254 01:08:54,040 --> 01:08:55,439 if everything you know, goes wrong. 1255 01:08:55,439 --> 01:08:58,279 But, and I was like, just. And at that point it was also 1256 01:08:58,279 --> 01:09:00,040 like, I don't know, 9:00 at night. 1257 01:09:00,040 --> 01:09:02,240 I just want to get home. Yeah. 1258 01:09:03,840 --> 01:09:04,960 All right, let's wrap it. I'll be. 1259 01:09:04,960 --> 01:09:10,319 Interested to see what YouTube shorts you make out of if 1260 01:09:10,319 --> 01:09:12,160 anything from the leg node comes up. 1261 01:09:13,160 --> 01:09:14,439 I don't know. I typically don't. 1262 01:09:14,439 --> 01:09:16,800 I try to keep it on point. So I'll probably try to focus on 1263 01:09:16,800 --> 01:09:17,960 that. But I know you'll be getting 1264 01:09:17,960 --> 01:09:19,920 into the YouTube Shorts thing, so you might carve something out 1265 01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:21,319 of this. Yeah, I. 1266 01:09:21,520 --> 01:09:23,720 Love it. Some sort of public messaging 1267 01:09:23,720 --> 01:09:25,760 and then that's when I really get to hate because people would 1268 01:09:25,760 --> 01:09:27,800 be like, I'm going to stand up and get past you anytime, you 1269 01:09:27,800 --> 01:09:31,640 know, screw you, Jim. I'd like sour drought. 1270 01:09:32,279 --> 01:09:34,240 Right. That's the one that that 1271 01:09:34,240 --> 01:09:36,399 definitely bugs me. And as much as I like 1272 01:09:36,399 --> 01:09:39,359 McDonald's, I do not want to smell it on a plane as it goes 1273 01:09:39,359 --> 01:09:41,200 past me because now I'm thinking about French fries. 1274 01:09:41,680 --> 01:09:44,479 Well, especially if you're. Starving and you don't have 1275 01:09:44,479 --> 01:09:46,640 anything? Yeah, yeah. 1276 01:09:47,960 --> 01:09:49,399 All right, let's call it for this week. 1277 01:09:51,080 --> 01:09:53,680 Visit our website, idacpodcast.com. 1278 01:09:54,040 --> 01:09:57,960 It has all of our episodes. It has all of our discount 1279 01:09:57,960 --> 01:10:01,840 codes, all that good stuff like subscribe, share with friends. 1280 01:10:02,800 --> 01:10:05,720 You know, we're doing crazy amounts of downloads every month 1281 01:10:05,720 --> 01:10:06,720 now. So it's pretty, pretty 1282 01:10:06,720 --> 01:10:09,200 ridiculous, but definitely want to keep that up. 1283 01:10:09,200 --> 01:10:12,320 And yeah, thanks to everyone who always reaches out and sends 1284 01:10:12,320 --> 01:10:14,440 this message on length ends, people who see at conferences, 1285 01:10:14,440 --> 01:10:16,800 etcetera. Also forward to meeting us 1286 01:10:16,800 --> 01:10:18,800 folks. So we'll go ahead and leave it 1287 01:10:18,800 --> 01:10:22,160 there for this week. Thanks everyone for watching and 1288 01:10:22,160 --> 01:10:24,520 or listening and we'll talk with you all in the next one. 1289 01:10:26,880 --> 01:10:29,960 You've been listening to Identity at the Center. 1290 01:10:30,280 --> 01:10:34,400 We hope you've enjoyed the show. Make sure to like, rate and 1291 01:10:34,400 --> 01:10:38,000 review, and we'll be back soon. But in the meantime, hit the 1292 01:10:38,000 --> 01:10:41,440 website at identity@thecenter.com. 1293 01:10:42,040 --> 01:10:46,120 See you next time on Identity at the Center.