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You're listening to the identity
at the center podcast. 

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This is the show that talks 
about identity and access 

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management and making sure you 
know who has access to what 

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let's get started. 
Welcome to the identity of the 

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sender podcast I'm Jeff and 
that's Jim. 

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Hey Jim hey Jeff, how are you? 
I'm good yourself. 

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Good. 
How about running into Eric 

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Anderson over lunch today? 
Yeah, that was pretty cool. 

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I had to, I had a major bone to 
pick with him now is because he 

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put the struts earwig into me 
like a year and a half ago and 

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totally went down a rabbit hole 
of listening to all things the 

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struts. 
So thanks Eric for that. 

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Yeah, thanks Eric for that. 
And I mean, the guy is very 

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knowledgeable about the Seattle,
grunge scene. 

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So he's going to join us 
tomorrow night. 

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I think for the happy hour at 
the mo pop Museum. 

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Yeah, that'd be cool. 
Maybe he can give us a tour of 

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all the things that he has seen.
Probably where? 

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I think it didn't say he was 
like a radio DJ here during sort

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of like that Grunge era. 
Yeah. 

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Right in the early 90s. 
Yeah, that's kind of cool. 

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Very cool. 
Very cool. 

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But I think that's one of the 
great things about conferences. 

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Overall running into people 
catching up with old friends, 

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making new AIDS and we run into 
a few friends for this podcast 

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episode. 
So when we jump right into it, 

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yeah, we've got you in Glaser, 
he's SVP product management at 

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Salesforce, and a co-founder of 
ID Pro. 

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Welcome Ian, thank you. 
Abby, was that polite? 

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It was very polite. 
Okay, I specifically listener, I

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specifically asked for a polite 
introduction. 

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He did, I did, I did my best. 
We've also got Andy hindle. 

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He's a Content chair for identi 
verse and board member at Ida 

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Pro. 
Welcome, Andy. 

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I'm delighted to be here, but 
that introduction was not as 

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polite. 
And I'm disappointed as well. 

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Well, you know, one of the two 
ain't bad and I think 50% for a 

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success rate is probably okay as
a first cut of things, you can 

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fix it in post. 
Sure. 

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I will add, I don't know what I 
could do in post, I can maybe 

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add some sound effects, or 
sparkling sound, something like 

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that. 
So, you guys are both here and 

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one of the things we want to 
sort of on a leadoff, the 

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conversation with is around ID 
Pro. 

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It's an organization that I 
happen to be a member of no Ian,

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we talked about you being a 
co-founder of it and Andy, Your 

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board member with it. 
Now, I guess, for folks who are 

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not familiar with ID Pro, what 
is it? 

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And why do I want to be part of 
it? 

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So are you Pro is the 
professional association for 

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digital identity, practitioners 
and professionals. 

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We found it about seven years 
ago and it came from a place 

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where I noticed that our 
security peers, have a 

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profession certification, they 
have communities in which they 

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can learn from, there's bodies 
of knowledge, And our privacy 

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peers have the same thing too. 
But we didn't. 

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And I coupled that with 
observation, not as I talk to 

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people around the industry. 
Most people That I've met have 

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learned or gotten into identity 
management by learning a single 

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product and then they learned 
another one and then they 

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learned another one, and all of 
a sudden, I like, wait a minute,

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there's like a thing here, 
right? 

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And so, the desire I had was to 
move identity management from 

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essentially being a dark art one
that you only learn through some

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weird sort of suffering process 
of product specific, sort of 

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implementations and challenges 
into one that could become a 

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profession that could have a 
body of knowledge. 

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You could have a community where
people could get back. 

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To one another and to learn from
one another. 

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And I think if I had to pick a 
single reason and and you might 

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fight me on this one. 
I'm a why someone should be a 

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member is get access to that 
Community. 

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There's a lot of ways that that 
benefits you. 

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I my day job is, I'm a product 
manager. 

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I look after a team of product 
managers and when we have a 

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question about identity things 
about, hey, how are people 

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really using this or that like, 
what's a real use case for this?

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Kind of Technology. 
We can actually ask it in a safe

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space and learn from other 
people. 

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I mean, I've been doing identity
for some Mumble, Mumble number 

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of years and there's definitely 
things, I still don't know and 

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that's good and it's a safe 
space for me to ask a question. 

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Say, like, do people really do 
use this like, so off profile. 

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I've never really seen it. 
What, what's a use case? 

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Help me out here and the same 
time, in the next moment I can 

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turn around say like, oh, hey I 
saw you had this problem here. 

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This is what I did in the past. 
And If that doesn't work and 

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then I'll take somebody else. 
I hate Lance's knows, maybe the 

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answer he's done this to right. 
So for me that community and the

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ability to both give back and 
take from the collective 

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knowledge, that's really 
powerful. 

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Yeah, the the give back part I 
think is is really important and

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I think it's beyond yet like all
of the things that you described

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are absolutely accurate. 
So I'm going to fight you on 

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them. 
I'm just going to extend my 

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little bit which is to say that 
there's technical value their, 

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right. 
How do I do this? 

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I'm on site at Giant Axe. 
And I'm trying to integrate 

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product a and product B and both
of vendors told me I can do this

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and I've tried and it doesn't 
work. 

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And has anybody done it answer? 
Yeah. 

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That's all great. 
The soft skills that go along 

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with developing a career in any 
industry, but I think it's 

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particularly relevant in the 
identity industry. 

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You know, how do I go pitch? 
My idea to Executive management,

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right. 
How do I get budget for this? 

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I'm trying to hire somebody and 
I haven't done this before. 

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How should? 
I interview them? 

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I've got a difficult, you know. 
HR situation with one of my 

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staff. 
How do I like those things and 

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having contextual support like 
industry? 

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Contextual support for those 
things, I think is tremendously 

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important. 
The other thing I'd say, and I 

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know this was something that you
talked about a lot in the early 

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days. 
The end was it's tremendously 

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difficult for hiring 
organizations to identify to 

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nurture and to To I guess grow 
as distinct from nurturing, 

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those two things, a little 
different talent in the space 

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when there's when there's no 
reference material right, when 

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there's there's nothing to go 
around that and we're at a point

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in the industry where that's, 
you know, identity is completely

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foundational to everything that 
happens in the digital world and

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we need those things to be to be
happening. 

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So that we have a body of 
experienced. 

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Ethically, minded people. 
You two values driven people, I 

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should better say to help us 
build stuff. 

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I think the correct answer 
though for me was the slack 

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Channel, I guess, you know, Ian 
from your perspective, you're 

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probably the one that hit it 
close as for me was the that 

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that Community, right? 
It's all the people who are part

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of it and outside and I'll give 
a Shameless plug, you know, not 

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only am I a member but a 
participant. 

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Right? 
Is that the ID Pro slack channel

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has like the smartest people and
you can like, asked any 

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question. 
It doesn't matter. 

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About identity. 
But usually it is and you'll get

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answers back. 
Yeah, exactly. 

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Is a variety of the topics we 
cover. 

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Yeah, I think there's like, 
there's a cat one dog. 

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There's a dog one, but it is 
invaluable to me. 

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As someone in the identity space
to be able to say, hey, has 

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anybody seen this before or what
are you working on or help me 

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articulate? 
This thing that I know is wrong 

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to a customer, right? 
Give me another reason. 

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Why there's something what you 
just said, triggered a thought, 

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which is and I had Put it 
together until actually right 

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now, which is we're here at this
conference. 

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And when I was starting out go 
to a conference and you see 

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someone like a Lori Robinson or 
a Darren rolls, you like I can't

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go talk to them. 
They just got off. 

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Stay, I can't go to. 
Are you kidding me? 

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It's really imposing. and one of
the funny things about slack is,

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Ideas is such a names and an end
and Avatar picture. 

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Right? 
You don't happen to know that 

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like I'm trying to think about 
who I can call it, like the 

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torrio is who he is, unless 
you're really in it and that 

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maybe someone could be really 
intimidated, go talk to. 

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But in that space, you can be 
like, hey, um, I think he might 

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know something about this, could
you help? 

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I've never seen anyone respond 
know, even if they don't know 

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the answer, right? 
So, it takes away a certain kind

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of in person. 
Action. 

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And and this is one of the 
reasons why I did start. 

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This was not everyone has the 
luxury of coming to a conference

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like this. 
Not everyone has the budget. 

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Not everyone has the awareness 
of these things and so how do 

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you democratize some of that 
access to knowledge? 

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Because We're not went to be 
Wizards, right? 

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This is not meant to be 
something that you have to 

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really suffer to learn. 
It's far too valuable and there 

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is so not enough Talent worked 
Force out there. 

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So the more we can get the 
better and no one is diminished 

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by giving back, and I think 
that's like environment. 

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And the community is large, the 
newsletter the body of 

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knowledge. 
Everybody benefits from that. 

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I think one thing I've noticed 
about the community Beavis like 

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channel is that its place for 
not just for program managers or

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just for analysts or just for 
engineers. 

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It's everybody. 
Everybody kind of fits into the 

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soup. 
Yeah. 

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Yeah. 
And I think it's increasingly 

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important that we attract that 
that breadth of perspective, 

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right? 
Like like people come to the 

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industry with very, very 
different backgrounds. 

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Very different I guess needs 
requirements. 

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And in whatever particular job 
it is that they're doing at that

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time. 
The more we understand what 

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those drivers are, and the fact 
that they are different, the 

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better, the products are the 
solutions, are that we build. 

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Yeah. 
What, you're one of the things 

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we saw. 
We run a skill survey every year

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where we ask people, hey, what 
are the, what are the technical 

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and non-technical skills that 
have made you a better identity 

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practitioner? 
What what is of interest to you 

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to learn about what is interest 
to priority to your Enterprise 

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and one of the things we think 
we are seeing is two different 

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kinds of identity practitioner 
people that operate the 

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Machinery, right? 
I run a ginormous IDP 

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infrastructure for a big 
pharmaceutical company and I own

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a provisioning product and you 
know, and they operated but we 

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think we're seeing in this 
year's data and it actually kind

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of pans out to historical is 
another. 

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Kind of practitioner says, I am 
applying identity stuff to other

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problems too. 
Privacy issues to sort of 

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marketing consent, to mobile 
applications to API surfaces and

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full disclosure any. 
And I write the report we could 

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be dramatically off on this, but
I think there's a day or their 

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of, we're starting to see 
different flavors of 

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practitioners. 
And so, to Andy's point Not 

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having like, oh, this is just 
for a flavor, right? 

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There's this, you know, that of 
how you do what you do. 

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Also to me, reflects the fact 
that this problem dealing with 

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digital identity is super 
complex, it has so many 

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different facets and those all 
have different relationships, 

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different parts of the business 
in the mission in this and what 

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you do. 
And so we can't just say, like, 

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oh no, and identity 
practitioner, you know, has to 

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be like this because Not that 
the nature of the discipline 

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requires a multidisciplinary 
approach. 

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Actually. 
Yeah. 

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No, I agree and I think there's 
another thing that's happening 

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as the industry grows, which is 
we're running into this problem,

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which I guess within the 
industry, we used to 

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disambiguate very easily about 
the way that terms get 

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overloaded, right? 
So we talk about identity, we 

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talk about four of us here. 
Yeah, we asked a definition of 

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any term, we will get. 
I'm going to go with no less 

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than six definition. 
I I think it's highly likely and

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00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:23,700
this goes back to the episode. 
We ran a few months back. 

230
00:12:23,700 --> 00:12:25,800
Now, what is the difference 
between what is it? 

231
00:12:26,300 --> 00:12:28,700
Yeah, digital identity. 
And right hand, and I remember 

232
00:12:28,700 --> 00:12:29,900
hearing where he's and I was 
like, oh yeah. 

233
00:12:29,900 --> 00:12:32,100
What's you like you think he 
thought it was an easy question 

234
00:12:32,100 --> 00:12:36,500
to answer and then I was like, 
oh God, whoa, this goes deep, 

235
00:12:36,500 --> 00:12:36,900
right? 
Yeah. 

236
00:12:36,900 --> 00:12:40,200
So that definition of that 
terminology is totally different

237
00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:43,700
everybody and it's becoming 
problematic because it used to 

238
00:12:43,708 --> 00:12:46,800
be that you were across enough 
of the things that were 

239
00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:49,000
happening in the space that you 
could design the, you ate, and 

240
00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:52,700
even conversation And even this 
week I've had, you know, 

241
00:12:52,700 --> 00:12:54,900
discussions with people who've 
been the entry for a long time 

242
00:12:54,900 --> 00:12:59,500
who are suddenly like wait. 
So, you know, when you talked 

243
00:12:59,500 --> 00:13:02,300
about identity in this context, 
did you mean x or y? 

244
00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:05,600
I alright, when you talked about
authentication, were you talking

245
00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:09,300
about specifically in an sc, a 
kind of Highly regulated 

246
00:13:09,300 --> 00:13:15,200
contacts, that was a different, 
you know, that knowledge sharing

247
00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:18,100
that has to happen to help us 
all this Ambu and to help us 

248
00:13:18,100 --> 00:13:20,900
understand that we have to 
explain Better, especially 

249
00:13:20,900 --> 00:13:24,700
outside of the industry. 
What we mean is another value I 

250
00:13:24,700 --> 00:13:27,500
think that we get from from 
those conversations I had like 

251
00:13:27,500 --> 00:13:29,000
an elsewhere. 
I had a conversation this 

252
00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:33,600
morning with salty Veterans of 
the industry her like you do you

253
00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,600
realize that in this Kim's back 
like we don't really Define this

254
00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:42,700
term and this term and this term
like Oh yeah, oh crap, it's like

255
00:13:42,700 --> 00:13:45,400
and also there's like super 
vagueness here here and here and

256
00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:50,500
so it's important for listeners 
who are maybe newer the 

257
00:13:50,500 --> 00:13:53,700
industry. 
Like don't let the terminology 

258
00:13:54,100 --> 00:13:57,700
scare you off. 
If only because a salty veteran,

259
00:13:57,700 --> 00:14:01,400
still screw things up and don't 
necessarily see our blind spots 

260
00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:04,800
but I think the thing for 
practitioners to be able to 

261
00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:07,900
describe the outcome, the 
application of the identity 

262
00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:13,100
technology and whatever it is. 
As the first order and then you 

263
00:14:13,100 --> 00:14:19,100
know whether you call it an SP 
or an RP May reveal some 

264
00:14:19,100 --> 00:14:22,600
religious stripes or cultural 
upbringing but it doesn't really

265
00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:24,100
matter. 
At the end of the day, what it 

266
00:14:24,100 --> 00:14:26,100
is all we're going to do over 
the seamless experience to all 

267
00:14:26,100 --> 00:14:28,400
of our customers and XYZ is 
going to happen. 

268
00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:30,300
It's gonna be great and we're 
going to increase conversion by 

269
00:14:30,300 --> 00:14:32,300
50%. 
That's the outcome. 

270
00:14:32,300 --> 00:14:37,400
We want to be able to express, I
think so, you mentioned, two 

271
00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,400
different sorts of populations. 
Again, I think there's a third 

272
00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:43,700
population that sort of sits in 
between the identity 

273
00:14:43,700 --> 00:14:47,000
practitioner, the super 
technical IDP genius, right? 

274
00:14:47,100 --> 00:14:50,700
Or the person who is taking 
identity principles and using 

275
00:14:50,700 --> 00:14:52,700
than elsewhere privacy consent, 
which you mentioned. 

276
00:14:53,100 --> 00:14:54,900
I think there's a third 
population, it sits in the 

277
00:14:54,900 --> 00:14:57,600
middle of that. 
I am program. 

278
00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:00,800
Managers project managers 
business analysts business 

279
00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:04,900
analysts, those types of folks 
who are not technical, Maybe by 

280
00:15:04,900 --> 00:15:09,600
Nature, they're not configuring 
an IDP to use sam'l oauth stuff.

281
00:15:09,700 --> 00:15:12,200
Up MFA. 
But what they are doing is 

282
00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:15,400
getting the message, you know, 
from the engineers to the 

283
00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:19,000
business, to the executives, to 
the public etcetera. 

284
00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:22,200
You know, I kind of liken is an 
IM program manager, you're out 

285
00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:24,200
there, shaking hands and kissing
babies. 

286
00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:26,000
You don't need to be the 
smartest person in the world, 

287
00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:27,300
but you need to be a good 
communicator. 

288
00:15:27,500 --> 00:15:29,700
You need to be able to 
understand it at least and be 

289
00:15:29,708 --> 00:15:31,700
able to communicate it to other 
folks out there. 

290
00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:34,700
I think sometimes when I see 
missing in a lot of 

291
00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:39,300
organizations is what are we 
doing to help those folks? 

292
00:15:39,300 --> 00:15:42,700
Because there is such a broad 
spread across people in the 

293
00:15:42,700 --> 00:15:46,000
identity space. 
You don't need to know all the 

294
00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:50,300
things of skim right or all the 
things of oauth or sam'l or you 

295
00:15:50,300 --> 00:15:53,600
know XYZ Fido, right? 
Whatever the the real thing is 

296
00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:57,200
behind, passkeys, do you need to
know how it works? 

297
00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:59,900
People that does a real thing by
passkeys. 

298
00:15:59,900 --> 00:16:01,700
Right, what? 
Yeah, that's there's this thing,

299
00:16:01,700 --> 00:16:04,600
right? 
That's not, we're all friends 

300
00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:07,400
here but it's that. 
It's that glue. 

301
00:16:07,500 --> 00:16:10,400
That, you know, basically takes 
the specs from Engineers and 

302
00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:13,100
works with the customers, right?
To quote unquote office space 

303
00:16:13,500 --> 00:16:16,700
and of course, you know, my own,
what are we being attacked by? 

304
00:16:16,700 --> 00:16:21,100
But so, as just to know that 
this is a live recording, we are

305
00:16:21,100 --> 00:16:24,700
now seeing Window Washers attack
the windows in our room here and

306
00:16:24,700 --> 00:16:27,700
hopefully, it doesn't cause too 
much of a distraction for us too

307
00:16:27,700 --> 00:16:32,500
late, but that third population 
is really one that concerns me 

308
00:16:32,500 --> 00:16:35,200
because that's the population 
that I feel like I have the most

309
00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:37,400
Affinity towards. 
You know, I've rolled out 

310
00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:40,500
identity platforms, of course 
before, But I'm more on the 

311
00:16:40,500 --> 00:16:43,800
business side of identity now 
and working with boards, you 

312
00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:47,000
know, other Executives 
soliciting and getting feedback 

313
00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:48,900
and trying to drive the message 
forward. 

314
00:16:49,700 --> 00:16:52,800
You know, what are we doing to 
help that role? 

315
00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:55,500
Because I see that as critical 
to getting anything done with 

316
00:16:55,508 --> 00:16:56,900
that organization. 
How are you going to go get 

317
00:16:56,900 --> 00:16:58,400
budget? 
You need to be able to sell it. 

318
00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:01,400
If you don't, people sell it. 
It's never going to happen or is

319
00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:04,000
going to happen too late, and 
you're continuously in this Rat 

320
00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:07,700
Race where you're always behind,
if I could turn my two sons so 

321
00:17:07,700 --> 00:17:14,200
near, I think, The role of I am 
program manager or whatever the 

322
00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:17,099
role from company to company is 
going to vary. 

323
00:17:17,500 --> 00:17:20,099
This is where I think we kind of
can transition into the 

324
00:17:20,099 --> 00:17:26,700
conversation around CID Pro, 
which is it can help establish. 

325
00:17:26,700 --> 00:17:31,600
What that Baseline of identity 
management best practices basic 

326
00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:34,500
knowledge and make that 
consistent across the industry. 

327
00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:39,300
So kind of throwing it 2nd, you 
know, CID Pro, maybe give it 

328
00:17:39,300 --> 00:17:41,900
back Around on what it is and 
what it's meant to accomplish. 

329
00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:47,900
Yeah, so that the Cipro again, 
when it Pros, originally set up,

330
00:17:47,900 --> 00:17:51,500
one of the things that we very 
much had in mind, we're all 

331
00:17:51,500 --> 00:17:53,600
trying to cope with the window 
washers, it's nothing. 

332
00:17:54,600 --> 00:18:00,200
One of the things we had in mind
was that there was no vendor 

333
00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:03,400
independent training, right? 
No, vendor Independent Learning 

334
00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:05,600
material. 
Now, I want to be clear a lot of

335
00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:10,000
the vendors and particularly in 
the earlier days of the Rewrite,

336
00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:14,000
some of the boutique the niche 
vendors as were then really did 

337
00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:16,400
an excellent job at putting 
material out for the community. 

338
00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:18,200
That was valuable that was well 
written. 

339
00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:21,500
It was well-constructed, it was 
necessarily biased rate and I 

340
00:18:21,508 --> 00:18:23,400
don't say that in a pejorative 
sense at all. 

341
00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:25,700
It just is it's naturally, 
you're going to write about your

342
00:18:25,700 --> 00:18:28,700
own products, right? 
And we learned very early on 

343
00:18:28,700 --> 00:18:33,700
actually in the skill survey, 
supported the hypothesis that we

344
00:18:33,700 --> 00:18:37,400
had the practitioners were 
really looking for, you know, 

345
00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:44,300
some independent vendor-neutral.
All knowledge and both they and 

346
00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:48,000
their employers were starting to
look for a mechanism for them to

347
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:52,000
be able to demonstrate that they
had that basic level of 

348
00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:55,500
knowledge and really nothing 
existed, the industry in the 

349
00:18:55,500 --> 00:18:57,600
industry, at that time to do 
that. 

350
00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:04,800
So we yes last year, right? 
Am I out by you? 

351
00:19:04,900 --> 00:19:06,200
You're a party here. 
I'm at by. 

352
00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:07,200
Yeah. 
Earlier this year. 

353
00:19:08,300 --> 00:19:11,200
No, two years ago correct? 
I'm at by ear in the other 

354
00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:13,200
direction. 
Yes, this is the whole left, 

355
00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:13,700
right? 
Thing. 

356
00:19:13,700 --> 00:19:15,500
That's been very complicated 
this week. 

357
00:19:15,900 --> 00:19:17,200
You drive on the wrong side of 
the road. 

358
00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:24,000
I know what can I say? 
Um, we invented driving now 

359
00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:26,900
that's a look. 
I haven't seen how the English 

360
00:19:26,900 --> 00:19:31,000
invented driving. 
If it was a gift right now, it 

361
00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:34,100
would be the one of the brain 
exploding with Ian right now. 

362
00:19:34,300 --> 00:19:36,900
Yeah, well I'm gonna go with. 
Do you have a flag and then I'm 

363
00:19:36,908 --> 00:19:41,900
going to move on. 
Um, so we a couple of years ago,

364
00:19:41,900 --> 00:19:46,500
we finally got around to 
building out the first version 

365
00:19:46,500 --> 00:19:50,300
of a certification program for 
digital identity professionals, 

366
00:19:50,300 --> 00:19:51,700
right? 
So that's what the Cipro is. 

367
00:19:52,700 --> 00:19:56,000
You can go take it today. 
It's designed for practitioners 

368
00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:59,200
who've got a couple of years of 
experience in the industry and 

369
00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:04,700
it validates a broad set of 
Baseline knowledge that we would

370
00:20:04,700 --> 00:20:08,400
expect the industry would expect
that employers would expect T' 

371
00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:12,500
that practitioner to have 
there's a set of supporting 

372
00:20:12,500 --> 00:20:15,000
materials that go along with 
that yes in the form of the body

373
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,200
of knowledge which is all 
peer-reviewed and practitioner 

374
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,300
written. 
But also we point to a set of 

375
00:20:20,300 --> 00:20:25,500
other publicly available 
non-biased vendor-neutral 

376
00:20:26,100 --> 00:20:28,400
reference material that people 
can go use. 

377
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,300
Now, one of the things that you 
started to point out a minute 

378
00:20:32,300 --> 00:20:37,900
ago, is that yeah that's great 
for the technical professional. 

379
00:20:38,300 --> 00:20:41,800
And I think we'll start to look 
at some ways that we can expand 

380
00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:45,200
the Cipro offering over the next
few years and whether that's 

381
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:47,100
more Technical and more depth or
whatever. 

382
00:20:47,100 --> 00:20:51,300
But you look at some of the 
other organizations that Ian 

383
00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:53,900
spoke to earlier on and the 
security space and the Privacy 

384
00:20:53,900 --> 00:20:55,700
space. 
And you start to see that 

385
00:20:55,700 --> 00:20:59,700
they've rolled out programs for 
managers, right? 

386
00:20:59,700 --> 00:21:04,300
So, I happen to hold some 
certifications in privacy from 

387
00:21:04,300 --> 00:21:07,000
the IEP and one of those is a 
cipm, right? 

388
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:13,100
So certified The Privacy program
manager, certification. 

389
00:21:13,500 --> 00:21:16,300
And I think, you know, that's 
one of the things that we might 

390
00:21:16,300 --> 00:21:19,800
want to look at is okay. 
Yet we can serve the technical 

391
00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:21,000
community. 
That's great. 

392
00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:24,100
How do we also help people grow 
and develop in that, you know, 

393
00:21:24,100 --> 00:21:26,100
oversight, governance kind of 
role. 

394
00:21:26,900 --> 00:21:30,200
So I might want to push back on 
something. 

395
00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:35,600
You said, which was about the 
sort of program managers and the

396
00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:42,400
need for them to be More 
identity, where so yesterday, I 

397
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:47,700
had the privilege of talking 
about sales forces MFA 

398
00:21:47,700 --> 00:21:50,300
requirements, at our rollout for
essentially requiring, all of 

399
00:21:50,300 --> 00:21:53,800
our customers to use strong MFA,
when they access their products.

400
00:21:54,500 --> 00:21:59,000
And one of the points I make is 
that the program team that is 

401
00:21:59,008 --> 00:22:03,600
continuing to operate. 
This program are not identity 

402
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:07,900
experts or even that familiar. 
They were also. 

403
00:22:09,100 --> 00:22:12,700
Some of them non-technical. 
In fact a lot that was an 

404
00:22:12,700 --> 00:22:16,200
intentional decision guests and 
know. 

405
00:22:17,700 --> 00:22:22,100
It was intentional in that we 
needed a program staff. 

406
00:22:22,500 --> 00:22:27,200
There was a notion within 
Salesforce of adoption programs.

407
00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:32,900
So like large-scale change in 
the products and sometimes came 

408
00:22:32,900 --> 00:22:37,500
with these adoption programs. 
For example, we changed our UI 

409
00:22:37,900 --> 00:22:40,100
layer across. 
Whole app that meant. 

410
00:22:40,100 --> 00:22:43,000
How you built components to 
extend the platform because we 

411
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:45,500
earlier platform as a service, 
as well as a SASS. 

412
00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:47,700
And so when we change that 
technology was a real sea 

413
00:22:47,700 --> 00:22:49,600
change. 
So there's an adoption program 

414
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,100
on that to get people to use the
new ux and then to start 

415
00:22:52,100 --> 00:22:56,900
building it and the experiments.
So, we knew we needed an 

416
00:22:56,900 --> 00:23:01,100
adoption program for this. 
However, those people were 

417
00:23:01,100 --> 00:23:04,900
experts in, if you want to touch
the entire customer base and 

418
00:23:04,900 --> 00:23:08,100
affect change, these are 
practices to go do that. 

419
00:23:08,100 --> 00:23:12,100
And we know who to go talk to to
enlist the next set of people 

420
00:23:12,100 --> 00:23:13,400
are going to need to help us do 
that. 

421
00:23:13,900 --> 00:23:18,800
Now, I will not first decision 
was made and it was not my 

422
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:23,300
decision to make, right? 
So I was at this point, a the 

423
00:23:23,300 --> 00:23:27,100
subject matter expert and 
product lead for the the largest

424
00:23:27,100 --> 00:23:30,400
of the sort of surface Is in the
products. 

425
00:23:32,700 --> 00:23:34,400
I like it. 
Right? 

426
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,600
And and this was a good moment 
for me professionally, like I 

427
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:39,200
was like, nope, this is going to
work. 

428
00:23:39,500 --> 00:23:44,400
I really was a bit opposite 
about it and it turns out and 

429
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,900
the reason why I was not pleased
about it was that I felt like 

430
00:23:47,900 --> 00:23:52,400
gosh, my folks who should be 
focusing on Building Product and

431
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:53,700
figuring out, roadmaps are how 
we can deliver. 

432
00:23:53,700 --> 00:23:57,500
These things are gonna spend a 
ton of time, do an identity 101.

433
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,700
Getting this program team up to 
speed and, you know, we're not 

434
00:24:02,700 --> 00:24:08,100
going to be doing the work. 
I was right in that we did spend

435
00:24:08,100 --> 00:24:11,500
a lot of time to do the identity
101, but I was very much wrong 

436
00:24:11,500 --> 00:24:13,400
in that. 
I didn't think that was the 

437
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,200
work, but it was the work 
because all of those 

438
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,400
conversations that we have with 
our program team, we then had to

439
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,500
go have with our customers. 
Our customers are not identity 

440
00:24:22,500 --> 00:24:25,300
practitioners. 
Our customers, especially their 

441
00:24:25,300 --> 00:24:29,200
admins are not deeply steeped in
MFA. 

442
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:31,700
Absolutely. 
Not like they're just trying to 

443
00:24:31,700 --> 00:24:33,300
complete the mission of their 
business. 

444
00:24:33,700 --> 00:24:36,800
You know, whether there are 
nonprofit, public sector private

445
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:38,100
sector in the matter, what year 
it is. 

446
00:24:38,300 --> 00:24:40,700
They're just trying to get on 
with their day and do it as 

447
00:24:40,700 --> 00:24:42,700
safely as possible to protect 
themselves and their customers 

448
00:24:42,700 --> 00:24:45,400
information. 
And so all the conversations we 

449
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,100
had internally, we replayed 
externally. 

450
00:24:48,100 --> 00:24:50,100
So that was the work we needed 
to do. 

451
00:24:50,100 --> 00:24:55,800
So I am of mixed Minds about 
saying, hey look, these big kind

452
00:24:55,800 --> 00:25:00,100
of identity programs, should you
stop it with more identity, SME 

453
00:25:00,100 --> 00:25:03,700
types, or people that really 
know how to make the trains run.

454
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:10,800
Run and I think there's a 
healthy blend their we backed 

455
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:12,600
into it. 
I would say I mean I don't want 

456
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:17,400
to say like there's some grand 
plan but a healthy mix is really

457
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,700
good because what you end up 
with is a diverse set of folks 

458
00:25:20,700 --> 00:25:24,500
around the work that needs to be
done or the hey, this is the 

459
00:25:24,500 --> 00:25:27,900
email blast is going to go out 
and all the my team looks at it 

460
00:25:27,900 --> 00:25:31,400
as like, Yeah. 
Oh change that because that's 

461
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:35,000
not exactly how the flow works. 
Then were guaranteed comes and 

462
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,300
goes I can't even make sense of 
the first sentence. 

463
00:25:38,300 --> 00:25:41,000
Let alone get to whatever the 
hell you just pointed at right 

464
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:45,900
and so if you didn't have that 
we wondered how the same 

465
00:25:45,900 --> 00:25:49,600
response because people died, 
literally don't know how to 

466
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,400
process what you're telling me 
to do that made a lot of sense 

467
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,500
to me when you were talking 
about that because I thought 

468
00:25:55,500 --> 00:26:00,300
about how many times the 
identity Matrix, Management team

469
00:26:01,300 --> 00:26:04,400
doesn't include non-identity 
people and identity. 

470
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,000
People are tend to be more 
technical, right? 

471
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:11,000
And they know how to change 
their password deal with all the

472
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:14,700
issues that you might run into. 
Oh, you know, figure out your 

473
00:26:14,700 --> 00:26:18,000
own problems and users don't 
necessarily even in the 

474
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:20,700
Enterprise especially when 
you're talking about customers. 

475
00:26:20,700 --> 00:26:24,500
They can be very low Tech folks.
Oh yeah, that really made a lot 

476
00:26:24,500 --> 00:26:26,600
of sense to me. 
Yeah. 

477
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,100
And it's interesting, this is 
come up a lot. 

478
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:31,200
Not actually in the context of 
this week, right? 

479
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,600
So a number of the things we've 
seen presented have been around 

480
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:37,400
some of the new password list. 
The passkeys, those kinds of 

481
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:44,200
things and the challenge of 
effectively, retraining a global

482
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,400
user base in how not to use a 
password, which is what we've 

483
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:51,800
been training them to do for the
last 30. 40, 50 years is an 

484
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:54,700
interesting one and you can see 
from a lot of the work that's 

485
00:26:54,700 --> 00:26:56,800
been presented this week. 
The people have been thinking 

486
00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:03,900
about that more from a Not more 
from but very much in a how do 

487
00:27:03,900 --> 00:27:07,500
we bake that in at the technical
design level rather than having 

488
00:27:07,500 --> 00:27:09,800
to come back around later and 
say, okay, we made this thing, 

489
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:12,000
let me explain how it works, 
right? 

490
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,800
Because it's very difficult to 
do that. 

491
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:21,600
So I agree with you and I think 
we have to be very mindful of 

492
00:27:22,300 --> 00:27:26,400
the non-technical end-user that 
we're trying to enable. 

493
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,300
So, really relevant to this 
week. 

494
00:27:30,900 --> 00:27:36,600
I believe, what you say is true.
However, here's the challenge. 

495
00:27:36,900 --> 00:27:39,900
Passkeys, things like that. 
Pastoralists in general. 

496
00:27:40,500 --> 00:27:44,800
But specific to pass Keys. 
The the good work that people 

497
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:47,000
like Apple and Google and 
Microsoft are doing to 

498
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:51,800
facilitate the common operating 
systems, the common browsers to 

499
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:56,100
support. 
This is amazing. but there's an 

500
00:27:56,100 --> 00:28:00,900
interesting rub and it's gonna 
it's gonna sort of chief us as 

501
00:28:00,900 --> 00:28:04,200
an industry for about 18 months 
to maybe three years depending 

502
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:09,500
on how things go, which is while
Google and apple and Microsoft 

503
00:28:09,500 --> 00:28:13,600
can document like, hey, this is 
the passkey experience, it's 

504
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,800
going to the responsibility is 
going to fall on those who adopt

505
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:20,200
the technology to actually 
explain it to the, in the 

506
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:22,900
context of their customers, or 
their citizens, or their 

507
00:28:22,900 --> 00:28:28,300
students, and Those people are 
not necessarily in the place to 

508
00:28:28,300 --> 00:28:31,100
do that. 
I don't have an infinite Supply 

509
00:28:31,100 --> 00:28:32,600
dark Riders. 
I don't have a name from supply 

510
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:36,100
of these Yaks things, and it's 
hard for me to say, oh, well, 

511
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,500
this is what you're going to see
on this device with this browser

512
00:28:39,500 --> 00:28:41,400
at Amy change the browser, it 
looks likely different school 

513
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,100
like this. 
I know there's still work to be 

514
00:28:44,100 --> 00:28:47,400
done there. 
So I do think a challenge of 

515
00:28:47,700 --> 00:28:51,900
yes, we as identity, 
practitioners need to be formal 

516
00:28:51,900 --> 00:28:54,600
cards and explain these 
Technologies to non-identity 

517
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:57,800
folk. 
We also, there is also another 

518
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:01,900
order of that, which is to say, 
I think we have to also start 

519
00:29:02,300 --> 00:29:06,100
giving our customers those of us
who provide identity technology 

520
00:29:06,100 --> 00:29:09,100
is giving her customers language
to talk about this with their 

521
00:29:09,100 --> 00:29:12,400
customers. 
Yeah, that's a fair point. 

522
00:29:14,100 --> 00:29:17,100
I I do think in the case of at 
least. 

523
00:29:17,700 --> 00:29:21,500
So it was funny a little earlier
on Ian was gesturing as he said,

524
00:29:21,500 --> 00:29:24,800
SME subject matter expert and 
pointed at me which is 

525
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:28,500
hysterical and I'm not 
particularly in this in this 

526
00:29:28,500 --> 00:29:33,100
realm, but I do think that some 
of the work that's gone on with 

527
00:29:33,100 --> 00:29:39,100
persky's is really so simple for
the end user to adopt that we 

528
00:29:39,100 --> 00:29:43,700
may not have to do that. 
Here's hoping but yeah, I mean I

529
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,800
like, I'm not sure that I'm 
optimistic, but I do think that 

530
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:51,800
there are some other things that
are emerging where I agree with 

531
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:57,600
you, like enabling the 
customer-facing Enterprise to 

532
00:29:59,100 --> 00:30:01,200
do, what they need to do is 
going to be a really, really big

533
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:07,700
piece of this puzzle. 
Do you think the success of 

534
00:30:07,700 --> 00:30:14,400
passkeys could further drive 
people to be tied to an existing

535
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:16,900
ecosystem? 
So, if you're using Apple 

536
00:30:16,900 --> 00:30:20,600
devices, you're just going to be
that much more locked into it or

537
00:30:20,900 --> 00:30:24,200
and maybe that's just the case. 
Anyway, I mean, I'm I've used 

538
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:28,000
Apple for all of my personal 
devices and it's because every 

539
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,900
service they pay for, goes 
across all the services. 

540
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,700
I'm just wondering in your 
Passkeys is just going to 

541
00:30:34,700 --> 00:30:39,700
further drive that if that's a 
good thing overall or not. 

542
00:30:39,700 --> 00:30:44,300
So good. 
So full disclosure, I have no 

543
00:30:44,300 --> 00:30:47,600
magic inside a knowledge other 
than the stuff that I've seen 

544
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:54,400
presented here this week. 
And I absolutely understand 

545
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:59,400
where that concern comes from. 
There was an eyesore at 

546
00:30:59,408 --> 00:31:01,900
literally this morning a 
presentation I want to say it 

547
00:31:01,900 --> 00:31:05,100
was Christian Brown from Google 
that gave it, but I wouldn't 

548
00:31:05,100 --> 00:31:11,000
swear to it and he walked 
through an explanation and 

549
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:16,200
demonstrated the sharing of a 
passkey across two different 

550
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,800
platforms. 
It was an Android device and a 

551
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:20,300
Macbook. 
I think. 

552
00:31:21,900 --> 00:31:26,300
Is it beautiful clean completely
drop dead simple. 

553
00:31:26,300 --> 00:31:29,100
My grandmother should do it 
experience today. 

554
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:34,700
No, then again, it was in beta 
or Sir, for those of you that 

555
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:42,700
are fun, but was it reassuring 
in terms of? 

556
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:46,800
Yeah, no, we get this. 
And it has to work seamlessly in

557
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,200
the same way. 
That frankly, a password today, 

558
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:53,300
work seamlessly across 
seamlessly air quotes, across 

559
00:31:53,300 --> 00:31:57,300
multiple devices, right? 
And I've heard a lot of noise 

560
00:31:57,300 --> 00:32:00,500
from, you know, the folks that 
are deeply engaged in, these 

561
00:32:00,500 --> 00:32:03,000
efforts, both on the vendor side
and just in the standards for 

562
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:08,300
see that, that's a 
well-understood challenge and 

563
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:11,400
not the corner that they all 
want to paint themselves into. 

564
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,700
So the I share the concern but 
I'm optimistic that we're not 

565
00:32:14,700 --> 00:32:17,000
going to end up in that 
particular space. 

566
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:21,600
The other thing that I've seen 
today is and I haven't laid Hive

567
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,500
hands on it directly, but it's 
War me. 

568
00:32:24,500 --> 00:32:27,200
It's heartwarming to see that 
there's thought there is not 

569
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,100
only. 
Is it working across echo system

570
00:32:30,700 --> 00:32:34,000
at the check the moment of the 
challenge but actually, Away to 

571
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:38,400
see that other echo system with 
that credential. 

572
00:32:38,700 --> 00:32:41,600
So that you don't have to do 
that awkward or somewhat awkward

573
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:45,500
or to be determined less awkward
motion, right? 

574
00:32:45,500 --> 00:32:48,700
So it's one thing to say like oh
yeah, you can kind of like 

575
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,000
Bluetooth your phone to the 
thing to do. 

576
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,100
The thing for that challenge was
to make you be like I never want

577
00:32:54,100 --> 00:32:58,400
to do that again. 
It's another thing to say, once 

578
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,900
you do that, you've actually 
cross-pollinated if you will and

579
00:33:01,900 --> 00:33:03,400
you've done it securely. 
Lee. 

580
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,400
And so now, when you're in that,
okay system, you can take care 

581
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,000
of that into that echo system 
and you don't have to do, that 

582
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,900
awkward gesture again. 
I want to see that come to 

583
00:33:11,900 --> 00:33:14,700
fruition, you know, and I think 
people are working towards that 

584
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,500
but it was good to see that 
explicitly call that. 

585
00:33:17,500 --> 00:33:20,800
I like it's not just a like oh 
it's a one-time thing. 

586
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,800
It's no this is actually a 
moment when we can actually 

587
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,000
Bridge those ecosystems. 
I think that's powerful if it 

588
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,900
comes to if it really comes to 
pass I think I hear anything 

589
00:33:28,900 --> 00:33:29,900
else. 
That's iterative right? 

590
00:33:29,900 --> 00:33:32,600
I think this is really just sort
of the first version of passkey 

591
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:34,900
and my mind. 
The next version will probably 

592
00:33:34,900 --> 00:33:37,900
have and I don't want to put 
words in Fido Mouse but the 

593
00:33:37,900 --> 00:33:40,600
cross-platform thing I think is 
extremely important, not 

594
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,300
everyone is working with in one 
ecosystem so they need a way to 

595
00:33:43,300 --> 00:33:45,700
be able to transport these 
across different platforms. 

596
00:33:45,700 --> 00:33:50,500
It needs to be easy enough, 
though that your grandmother can

597
00:33:50,500 --> 00:33:52,200
do it, right. 
I think this is where I 

598
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,400
appreciate what Apple has done 
for Biometrics when it comes to 

599
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:59,200
face ID and with the, you know, 
Touch ID, they made it a simple 

600
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,400
where everyone gets it, right? 
It's no longer foreign. 

601
00:34:03,100 --> 00:34:05,900
You to receive a prompt on your 
iPhone that you have a second 

602
00:34:05,900 --> 00:34:09,600
Factor authentication to do. 
I think the thing I've talked 

603
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:12,699
about this, I guess it was a 
couple of years ago, maybe 

604
00:34:12,699 --> 00:34:15,500
virtual identity versus I can't 
quite remember something that's 

605
00:34:15,500 --> 00:34:17,300
sort of like what is the next 
ten years look like in one of 

606
00:34:17,300 --> 00:34:20,300
the things that I may dig into 
this little bit more next year 

607
00:34:20,300 --> 00:34:26,500
is there's a, there's a change 
happening in the way, we 

608
00:34:26,500 --> 00:34:31,800
identify ourselves. 
Just things that ceremony is now

609
00:34:32,500 --> 00:34:35,199
Inconsistent. 
Because it's in transition, 

610
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,100
right? 
For a time it was there's a box 

611
00:34:38,100 --> 00:34:39,000
here. 
What goes? 

612
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:40,400
They're using it. 
There's a box here. 

613
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:42,800
What goes there? 
Password, two boxes. 

614
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:48,400
There should only be two boxes 
and then Eric Google's like what

615
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:52,600
if there was one box and like 
everyone lost their damn mind. 

616
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:56,199
Flash Forward. 
Apple has done what they've done

617
00:34:56,199 --> 00:34:57,900
with Biometrics. 
Google has done what they've 

618
00:34:57,900 --> 00:35:01,500
done an Android. 
And now the way I get to things 

619
00:35:01,500 --> 00:35:03,900
is Replete. 
Right? 

620
00:35:03,900 --> 00:35:06,800
There's all of these different 
ways to do this and then you get

621
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,000
coffee when you're like smart 
TV. 

622
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:12,400
It's me. 
Do I want the app that app? 

623
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:14,700
No, not that, that app. 
No, I don't want enter my 

624
00:35:14,700 --> 00:35:16,400
password there. 
Please don't make me enter my 

625
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:18,500
password there because it's like
65 characters could take all 

626
00:35:18,500 --> 00:35:22,400
week and the show will be over. 
So the fight is on right now, 

627
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,600
sorry, that's not the right 
word, the transition is on right

628
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:28,100
now of what are those new 
ceremonies? 

629
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:29,800
Is? 
There one to rule them all? 

630
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:34,100
Is there multiple? 
That is causing the knees. 

631
00:35:34,700 --> 00:35:36,800
It's causing us using us as 
practitioners. 

632
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,500
And so, I think there's a 
knee-jerk reaction says, oh, 

633
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:41,600
that implementation of passkeys,
not perfect. 

634
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:45,500
Well, of course, not, things are
still in motion. 

635
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:49,900
But the next couple of years are
going to be, I think 

636
00:35:50,100 --> 00:35:55,800
uncomfortable because there 
won't be one ceremony and 

637
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,200
because of that, that means if 
you're rolling out services to 

638
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:00,900
citizens to students to 
customers, you're going to need 

639
00:36:00,900 --> 00:36:02,900
to accommodate for that or at 
least explain that. 

640
00:36:03,300 --> 00:36:05,100
And when you're dealing with 
your parents gave you like, okay

641
00:36:05,900 --> 00:36:07,700
what do I see on? 
All right. 

642
00:36:07,700 --> 00:36:09,100
Yeah, that one. 
Okay, so this is what's gonna 

643
00:36:09,100 --> 00:36:11,300
happen. 
We'll get through it, but I 

644
00:36:11,308 --> 00:36:13,200
think as practitioners 
especially roaming the Halls are

645
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:15,900
similar. 
She like, oh boy. 

646
00:36:16,100 --> 00:36:17,800
Yeah. 
Could be a thing but I know that

647
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,700
where we're going is going to be
better than the two box 

648
00:36:20,700 --> 00:36:23,300
experience. 
But if we're constantly in this 

649
00:36:23,300 --> 00:36:27,000
state of change, when do you 
jump in and bite the bullet and 

650
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:28,300
say, okay, I'm along for the 
ride. 

651
00:36:28,500 --> 00:36:32,500
If we know with that, there's 
going to be a next version of 

652
00:36:32,508 --> 00:36:34,100
something. 
Right? 

653
00:36:34,100 --> 00:36:37,900
When do I jump in the water? 
You might not have a choice 

654
00:36:37,900 --> 00:36:42,000
because the ways in which you're
accessing those Services, the 

655
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:45,300
designers of those systems, the 
vendors of those Technologies 

656
00:36:45,300 --> 00:36:50,300
are going to be Make decisions 
and good, bad or indifferent. 

657
00:36:50,900 --> 00:36:53,900
You're kind of along for the 
ride and in some ways, and 

658
00:36:53,900 --> 00:36:56,600
that's not necessarily a good 
thing, and it is important to 

659
00:36:56,607 --> 00:36:59,900
note, it may not work for 
everybody. 

660
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:06,400
There are still going to be 
plenty of challenges of 

661
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:08,800
different populations in 
different use cases and 

662
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:12,400
different geographies. 
Where passkey isn't the right 

663
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:15,100
thing. 
That's okay too. 

664
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:19,200
We just have to acknowledge it 
like There is going to be no 

665
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,500
one. 
Probably most likely not going 

666
00:37:22,500 --> 00:37:27,800
to be one ring to rule them all,
but losing sight of the fact, 

667
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,700
right? 
If forgetting the fact that yes,

668
00:37:30,700 --> 00:37:34,600
well, this addresses Western 
population to the tune of 80 90 

669
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:39,100
percent agree, but it doesn't 
work well, in a Multi-Device 

670
00:37:39,100 --> 00:37:44,500
mobile-only sub-Saharan Africa 
scenario, we lose sight of that,

671
00:37:44,500 --> 00:37:46,600
then we get in trouble, right? 
This is why things like, what 

672
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,100
the women and identities. 
Study of inclusive. 

673
00:37:50,100 --> 00:37:53,200
I'm gonna get the name wrong 
engine to diversity increase. 

674
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:56,300
No, it's not well inclusively 
study. 

675
00:37:56,300 --> 00:38:00,400
They did about essentially why 
you need why it's imperative 

676
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:03,700
that you have diverse groups, 
building an energy solutions is 

677
00:38:03,700 --> 00:38:08,200
because without those voices and
those eyes on things you're 

678
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:11,300
going to miss things and 
identity things, especially when

679
00:38:11,300 --> 00:38:14,200
it comes to, how you prove your 
citizenship, how you express 

680
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:17,500
your citizenship, how you 
express your legal personhood 

681
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:21,300
are Our so crucial that. 
We've got to always keep that 

682
00:38:21,300 --> 00:38:25,500
inside. 
Yeah, and I think to come back 

683
00:38:25,700 --> 00:38:29,200
to the original question there 
but from the implementer side 

684
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:30,900
rather than the user side, 
right? 

685
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:34,000
So this is one of those things 
we look at in the skill survey 

686
00:38:34,900 --> 00:38:40,500
in terms of asking practitioners
what are you interested in 

687
00:38:40,500 --> 00:38:43,900
learning and working on over the
next three years and 

688
00:38:44,700 --> 00:38:48,800
practitioners what are your 
Enterprises Looking at him, 

689
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:51,900
working on over the next three 
years and we typically see an 

690
00:38:51,900 --> 00:38:55,400
interesting Gap in those 
answers, right? 

691
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:58,500
Like consistently your every 
year, there's a gap between 

692
00:38:58,500 --> 00:39:00,800
between those things, right? 
The things that practitioners 

693
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,400
are interested in, not 
necessarily the same things that

694
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:05,300
are no prizes are interested in 
are some of, that's probably 

695
00:39:05,300 --> 00:39:10,300
natural. 
But I think my sense is that as 

696
00:39:10,300 --> 00:39:12,200
with all of these new things 
that come up, right? 

697
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:14,300
Practitioners are going to be 
interested in understanding. 

698
00:39:14,300 --> 00:39:19,100
What they are taking that back 
and thinking about The the 

699
00:39:19,100 --> 00:39:23,000
project or Enterprise or 
business or sectoral context to 

700
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:27,400
that they operate in and saying.
Right, this is either a, a thing

701
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:29,200
that we're definitely going to 
need to do at some point. 

702
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:33,200
We just got to figure out how 
and when or be mmm watching 

703
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:34,800
brief. 
Let's wait and see where it 

704
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:39,400
goes. 
My sense is to Ians point. 

705
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:41,100
This is probably one of those 
things where it's going to 

706
00:39:41,100 --> 00:39:43,200
happen. 
It's really now going to be a 

707
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:47,300
case of working out, okay? 
How and when for the given user 

708
00:39:47,300 --> 00:39:48,700
community? 
That I serve. 

709
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:57,600
Some of the edge cases that Ian 
talks about on not edge cases. 

710
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:00,700
They are. 
And I'm not suggesting. 

711
00:40:00,700 --> 00:40:03,200
I know you in. 
Did not say that they were. 

712
00:40:03,300 --> 00:40:07,100
I'm just trying to clarify for 
The Listener that then knowledge

713
00:40:07,100 --> 00:40:09,300
cases, right? 
These are huge. 

714
00:40:09,300 --> 00:40:13,300
Global populations that operate 
in very different ways to how we

715
00:40:13,300 --> 00:40:17,900
operate. 
And we really need to start very

716
00:40:17,900 --> 00:40:19,800
carefully. 
Thinking about every single 

717
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:22,100
solution that we put out in the 
market, whether it's a vendor 

718
00:40:22,300 --> 00:40:26,200
Product in the space or, you 
know, a service that we're 

719
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:31,100
offering commercially, whatever 
has to account for those for 

720
00:40:31,100 --> 00:40:33,800
those populations. 
And frankly, in many cases, I 

721
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:36,600
think we'll end up making better
products because of it from a 

722
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:39,300
skill survey standpoint. 
Was there, anything else that 

723
00:40:39,300 --> 00:40:41,800
jumped out? 
As far as you mentioned, this 

724
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:46,100
gap between what, you know, what
individuals want to learn versus

725
00:40:46,100 --> 00:40:48,500
what really organization should 
be focusing on or what they say.

726
00:40:48,700 --> 00:40:51,000
At least what those individuals 
think their organizations 

727
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:52,900
focusing on what? 
I think is probably where the 

728
00:40:52,908 --> 00:40:54,900
distinction, I want to draw it 
in is because I think about it 

729
00:40:54,900 --> 00:40:59,000
from a board perspective as part
of an organization, right? 

730
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:02,400
Or the c-suite or Executives, 
whatever, you know, group is 

731
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:05,800
making decisions. 
What are they, what are they 

732
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:07,600
looking at from a data 
perspective? 

733
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:10,100
Because I know it's important to
them, I'm seeing a lot more 

734
00:41:11,100 --> 00:41:13,900
boards that are focused on what 
is their identity, access 

735
00:41:13,900 --> 00:41:14,800
management program. 
Look like it. 

736
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:18,300
There are specific organization,
but if I went and asked, you 

737
00:41:18,300 --> 00:41:21,500
know, a bunch of seashells, 
something like passkeys would 

738
00:41:21,500 --> 00:41:23,400
not even be. 
Would be like something else 

739
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:27,800
they would be like, oh, we need 
to do IGA or access reviews or 

740
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:29,500
we need to get MFA in place, 
right? 

741
00:41:29,500 --> 00:41:32,500
They're not thinking about it in
those very specific terms, 

742
00:41:32,500 --> 00:41:35,200
they're thinking it more at a 
macro level and saying, we need 

743
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:39,700
to be better at knowing who has 
access to what let me. 

744
00:41:39,700 --> 00:41:45,400
Let me take a swing at this 
year's results by the way. 

745
00:41:45,500 --> 00:41:46,900
Lester up. 
These are all freely available. 

746
00:41:46,900 --> 00:41:49,000
Good idea. 
Pro dorky can get the skill 

747
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:53,700
survey number one response, So 
the question we ask is to the 

748
00:41:53,700 --> 00:41:56,300
practice we ask, okay? 
So what are the top related 

749
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,500
identity? 
Related priorities for your 

750
00:41:59,500 --> 00:42:03,000
organization when you work with 
over the next 18 months and sort

751
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:07,900
of 123 are IGA, a dirty 
government Administration and Fa

752
00:42:07,900 --> 00:42:10,000
and then I dasn't clutter 
identity management. 

753
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:11,800
Now I'm at that was number one 
last year. 

754
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:15,700
We think it basically was a 
straight response. 

755
00:42:15,700 --> 00:42:17,700
And actually number one, to two 
years in a row, straight 

756
00:42:17,700 --> 00:42:22,100
response to the pandemic, right?
I need a control because I got 

757
00:42:22,300 --> 00:42:25,200
Course everywhere and if I want 
to do this a zero trust 

758
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:28,700
thingamabob or whatever the hell
that is like I need some if I go

759
00:42:29,100 --> 00:42:32,500
right, people ran fine great. 
So let's move down and I think 

760
00:42:32,500 --> 00:42:38,600
what we're seeing is a return to
more classic risk management on 

761
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:43,100
the part of boards and on and it
shop saying let's we upped our 

762
00:42:43,100 --> 00:42:45,500
governance game, maybe a little 
bit, this pandemic is more 

763
00:42:45,500 --> 00:42:47,500
important. 
Let's not lose sight of the fact

764
00:42:47,500 --> 00:42:50,400
that maybe we did have a 
material finding maybe we aren't

765
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:51,600
as good about some of these 
things. 

766
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:55,400
It's not lose sight of that. 
And then, I'd as which, I think 

767
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:59,100
dropped two positions and I'm 
doing that for memory on the 

768
00:42:59,100 --> 00:43:05,500
previous ones to me is about the
normal Cadence, of when identity

769
00:43:05,500 --> 00:43:09,300
infrastructure gets replaced out
and people saying, look what we 

770
00:43:09,300 --> 00:43:12,100
got. 
Okay, but we don't have the kind

771
00:43:12,100 --> 00:43:16,600
of agility that we need and so I
think people are really going 

772
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:19,500
towards, I'd as as an agility 
seeking exercise. 

773
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:26,000
Now, this is in Ask to what the 
individuals responded 

774
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:30,100
individuals top three 
decentralized and or self 

775
00:43:30,100 --> 00:43:34,900
Sovereign identity. 
I'd as an identity standards and

776
00:43:34,900 --> 00:43:37,100
verified credentials actually 
tied for third there. 

777
00:43:37,700 --> 00:43:42,900
So I'd as in the second position
to we think is a response to the

778
00:43:42,900 --> 00:43:45,100
market. 
It was very, very popular for a 

779
00:43:45,107 --> 00:43:47,700
couple years in a row and I 
think people just said, look, 

780
00:43:47,700 --> 00:43:53,900
I've been doing On-prem IBM, 
Tivoli access manager. 

781
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:55,700
Deployments, I know there's that
product. 

782
00:43:55,700 --> 00:43:59,100
Does it exist anymore? 
Like I'm a Tim Tam guy and I'm 

783
00:43:59,107 --> 00:44:03,700
just living on on-prem. 
I gotta I gotta okay, right. 

784
00:44:03,700 --> 00:44:06,600
Because the clearly people are 
hiring for in certain ideas, 

785
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,100
vendor here. 
Okay, fine. 

786
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:13,000
That's a reasonable response. 
The sort of decentralized 

787
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:17,100
verified credential thing. 
I think is a in that community 

788
00:44:17,100 --> 00:44:19,000
in our community. 
People are curious like, hey, 

789
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:21,900
there's there's a lot going on 
here. 

790
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:24,700
I don't know, I don't know where
to begin life. 

791
00:44:24,700 --> 00:44:26,600
So I want to go like, really dig
into that. 

792
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:29,600
Like we are a curious punch. 
That's a really, really 

793
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:32,800
important. 
Thing is a personally seeing 

794
00:44:33,100 --> 00:44:35,800
identity standards development 
as third. 

795
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:42,900
I have no good explanation for 
that one and and I am so many 

796
00:44:42,900 --> 00:44:45,200
conflicting thoughts of like, 
that would be awesome. 

797
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:47,400
If we got more people to do the 
work, we really do. 

798
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:52,100
Need it cross the board. 
Other kind of like are you are 

799
00:44:52,100 --> 00:44:54,600
you sure? 
You know what you're getting 

800
00:44:55,100 --> 00:44:57,500
into? 
Look at all these beautiful 

801
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:00,100
people that were once beautiful 
and be. 

802
00:45:00,700 --> 00:45:02,800
And now look at them because 
they just do nothing but 

803
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:05,300
standards and they're so 
crotchety and I'm presuming that

804
00:45:05,300 --> 00:45:07,700
Victoria is the exception that 
proves The rule here in. 

805
00:45:08,500 --> 00:45:09,700
Yes. 
Yes of course. 

806
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:14,000
And others that will come and 
find me later today but I the 

807
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:16,400
standard sing. 
I feel like if that's true, 

808
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:18,200
right people? 
Like no, I want to get more 

809
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:21,800
involved in standards that 
represents an amazing 

810
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:24,900
opportunity to bring those 
diversities cases back into 

811
00:45:24,900 --> 00:45:27,900
bodies that maybe didn't have 
the most diverse representation 

812
00:45:27,900 --> 00:45:29,200
when we were building those 
standards. 

813
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:31,500
That's what we need, right? 
We need the next generation of 

814
00:45:31,500 --> 00:45:32,900
people who are going to work on 
those things. 

815
00:45:32,900 --> 00:45:36,100
The next generation of I 
generati, who don't even know 

816
00:45:36,100 --> 00:45:38,200
who they We don't even know who 
they are yet. 

817
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:40,800
Maybe they don't know themselves
and who they all probably aren't

818
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:44,800
even in the industry yet. 
And and may come at this from a 

819
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:47,100
really, really different 
background and perspective. 

820
00:45:47,100 --> 00:45:48,800
Right. 
And I hope that that's true 

821
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:51,500
because they'll say a lot of 
good things about, you know, how

822
00:45:51,500 --> 00:45:55,400
things are developing. 
So case simply last week, I was 

823
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:59,300
taking some folks on my team 
through some things I would to 

824
00:45:59,300 --> 00:46:02,800
doing with our skill 
implementation and someone who's

825
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:07,600
a little bit younger said, Skip 
just feel so heavy. 

826
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:10,000
And like, what is like? 
You're feels like it was made by

827
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:14,300
XML people. 
I like, I'm gonna let that slide

828
00:46:14,300 --> 00:46:18,000
for a minute because the person 
in question happened ahead of 

829
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:20,400
the exact Mo background, I'm 
like, well, okay, pot you want 

830
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:23,400
to talk about the kettle being 
black, but then, we're going to 

831
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:26,900
toast of Eve was probably like, 
just like that's not cool, not 

832
00:46:26,900 --> 00:46:29,700
cool. 
In skim you can filter for 

833
00:46:29,700 --> 00:46:34,200
attributes and basically it's 
just straight up ldap and He's 

834
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:35,700
like see. 
See, look and those are like 

835
00:46:35,700 --> 00:46:39,300
ldap people in there like Kai, 
you're not wrong. 

836
00:46:39,300 --> 00:46:41,700
But there was that moment of 
like, whoa, I've been sitting 

837
00:46:41,700 --> 00:46:44,900
way too close to this to not 
even like see that or find it 

838
00:46:44,900 --> 00:46:46,900
funny. 
I can't now a little time and 

839
00:46:46,900 --> 00:46:50,100
alcohol. 
But new folks coming into this 

840
00:46:50,100 --> 00:46:52,100
who are going to. 
Look at the way we do things and

841
00:46:52,100 --> 00:46:54,200
say, like gosh, why did we do 
this? 

842
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:57,500
I mean, I think a lot of Us kid 
about the transition from angle.

843
00:46:57,500 --> 00:47:01,200
Brackets two curly braces, the 
XML to Json. 

844
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:02,600
Migration of all of our 
standards. 

845
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:05,000
Yeah, a little Being here and 
there. 

846
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:08,500
But in that process, in that 
reinvention of the wheel, we're 

847
00:47:08,500 --> 00:47:11,000
bringing new voices into the 
process, which means we're gonna

848
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:14,100
get a better product. 
Yeah, I agree. 

849
00:47:14,100 --> 00:47:17,600
I also think there's always a 
caution about just because we 

850
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:21,000
used to do it a way before, 
doesn't mean we have to do it 

851
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:23,400
differently tomorrow, right? 
Like sometimes there were good 

852
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:26,500
design reasons why things were 
done a certain way and there's a

853
00:47:26,500 --> 00:47:33,500
risk in forgetting that history,
but it's important to question 

854
00:47:33,500 --> 00:47:36,300
it. 
And that brings me a little bit 

855
00:47:36,300 --> 00:47:41,800
to some observations that you 
made a second ago about boards 

856
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:50,600
and she sews and Executives. 
I think there are some really 

857
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:55,400
interesting questions to start 
to ask about the way that the 

858
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:58,900
c-suite and the way that boards 
and I distinguish those two 

859
00:47:58,900 --> 00:48:05,400
things very, very carefully. 
Think about where Sits in their 

860
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:09,900
landscape, right? 
Generally speaking historically,

861
00:48:09,900 --> 00:48:13,400
I think it's been something that
typically sets in the security 

862
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:17,600
realm, right? 
It tends to be more about risk, 

863
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:22,400
mitigation compliance, you know,
security things. 

864
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:27,800
I think we're getting to a point
where the question boards 

865
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:33,700
particularly need to be asking 
is how is this enabling our 

866
00:48:33,700 --> 00:48:38,500
strategy for the next and years.
And Yeah. 

867
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:40,800
How is it helping us? 
Mitigate some of the risks 

868
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:43,100
around that strategy but those 
are business risks. 

869
00:48:43,100 --> 00:48:46,000
Not technical risks, not 
compliance risks there. 

870
00:48:46,300 --> 00:48:50,400
If we don't do this, our 
top-line business objectives, 

871
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:52,400
we're not going to hit him, 
right? 

872
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:57,400
I don't see boards asking that 
question and it's high time but 

873
00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:02,000
they should, they made me aware 
of those questions undoubtedly. 

874
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:04,900
Yeah, I mean there's a massive 
education exercise to do that. 

875
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:07,800
In the same way the Privacy, 
like the Privacy industry had to

876
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:08,500
go. 
Oh, through this now. 

877
00:49:08,500 --> 00:49:13,500
They were helped by regulation 
frankly, but you know that the 

878
00:49:13,500 --> 00:49:17,600
shift from there was no privacy 
representation on the board at 

879
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:21,400
all, to every board has a DP 0, 
right? 

880
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:26,800
Where's extremely rapid? 
But interestingly, most of those

881
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:33,100
certainly that I've observed are
still acting in a Regulatory 

882
00:49:33,100 --> 00:49:36,100
Compliance risk, mitigation kind
of mode. 

883
00:49:36,100 --> 00:49:39,800
It's very rare that you get A 
conversation, particularly at 

884
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:43,700
board level around. 
Hey, how does privacy actually 

885
00:49:43,700 --> 00:49:45,500
make my business unique and 
better? 

886
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:52,300
You know, I suspect that that, 
you know if this was privacy at 

887
00:49:52,300 --> 00:49:54,000
the center then we could talk 
about that for a while. 

888
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:58,700
But that's our next venture you 
need to have you back for that 

889
00:49:58,700 --> 00:50:00,600
one? 
Yeah, you know. 

890
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:06,200
It's the reason I bring it up is
because those are the folks that

891
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:09,100
control the funding. 
And you can have the best team 

892
00:50:09,100 --> 00:50:11,800
in the world. 
The smartest people in the room,

893
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:14,300
the best tools. 
But unless there's resources 

894
00:50:14,300 --> 00:50:16,900
made available to actually put 
it in place, it's not happening.

895
00:50:17,300 --> 00:50:21,100
So I would argue, those are the 
people that control priority. 

896
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:25,800
Resource flows after that. 
And there is a subtle 

897
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:27,700
difference. 
In my mind, have going to a 

898
00:50:27,707 --> 00:50:31,900
c-suite, going to the executive 
ranks and saying, I want you to 

899
00:50:31,900 --> 00:50:37,000
bless this as a priority. 
Versus IE 15 headcount to do a 

900
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:41,500
thing. 
And one of the things that's in 

901
00:50:41,500 --> 00:50:44,300
the skill survey is about the 
needs around oral and written 

902
00:50:44,300 --> 00:50:46,900
communication, the kind of 
middle of the pack responses if 

903
00:50:46,900 --> 00:50:51,600
you will, but in my own 
experience, I'm writing more. 

904
00:50:51,700 --> 00:50:57,100
Now documents now artifacts 
almost that I did in any other 

905
00:50:57,100 --> 00:50:59,500
point in my career, except when 
I was an analyst and I wrote for

906
00:50:59,500 --> 00:51:04,600
a living essentially, but it's 
around justifying priority. 

907
00:51:05,700 --> 00:51:09,000
And the ancillary part is that 
and this is the the resource 

908
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:12,600
that I need. 
And so, what is the priority at 

909
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:16,000
the board level of identity 
isn't a question? 

910
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:19,100
I think that's being asked. 
I think we're getting different 

911
00:51:19,100 --> 00:51:21,200
forms of Application of 
identity. 

912
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:24,000
What is the value of digital 
terms formation? 

913
00:51:24,100 --> 00:51:28,800
What is the value of US, 
mitigating certain kinds of 

914
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:32,700
risks? 
And so I'm at peace with that in

915
00:51:32,700 --> 00:51:35,200
some regards but I want or 
should there be more identity 

916
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:38,900
questions being asked at those 
tears around bless this as a 

917
00:51:38,900 --> 00:51:41,200
priority. 
I think it's really time all the

918
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:43,900
prior to zation is really the 
goal right. 

919
00:51:43,900 --> 00:51:47,700
I do you bump something up the 
list when it comes time to move 

920
00:51:47,700 --> 00:51:51,700
things forward I know we've I 
think you also put it in terms 

921
00:51:51,700 --> 00:51:57,700
of business objectives because a
lot of these topics are So 

922
00:51:57,700 --> 00:52:00,700
difficult that we have a hard 
time understanding them or 

923
00:52:00,700 --> 00:52:04,200
explain them to the next level 
up and then getting it to the 

924
00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:07,400
the board which doesn't have any
contacts on why you should care 

925
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:11,000
about investing in Identity or 
some of the specific areas of 

926
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:13,000
identity. 
It's like they don't even want 

927
00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:15,700
to know the details, was it 
business objective that I'm 

928
00:52:15,700 --> 00:52:18,100
going after? 
Yeah, and I think that's, that's

929
00:52:18,100 --> 00:52:20,600
why I was kind of talking 
earlier about that third 

930
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:24,300
population, the glue, right? 
Who is going to the board and 

931
00:52:24,300 --> 00:52:26,500
helping them set, those 
priorities or advise them on 

932
00:52:26,500 --> 00:52:29,400
that. 
Can't you know it's it's a bunch

933
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:31,500
of I am Heroes that are 
typically running an 

934
00:52:31,500 --> 00:52:34,900
organization throat, identity 
standpoint, and they're doing 

935
00:52:34,900 --> 00:52:38,600
their best and sometimes it's a 
challenge to get things moving 

936
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:41,000
forward. 
I know where you have been 

937
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:43,500
waxing, poetic you're around a 
bunch of different stuff when I 

938
00:52:43,508 --> 00:52:46,100
start to let you guys go so you 
can enjoy the actual conference 

939
00:52:46,100 --> 00:52:49,200
itself. 
But before we go, we probably 

940
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:52,200
want to end on a lighter note. 
So I'll throw a couple options 

941
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:53,200
out there. 
I guess. 

942
00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:58,300
The first one is What is the 
weirdest thing you have eaten 

943
00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:05,100
sea cucumber Taiwanese, banquet 
for a friend of mines wedding? 

944
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:09,300
One of the later courses and any
attempts to actually chew it. 

945
00:53:09,300 --> 00:53:11,600
Just cost it to squirt to the 
other side of your mouth. 

946
00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:13,600
It was like a lovely sauce. 
It was really fun, but I'm like,

947
00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:16,700
do you actually eat this thing? 
Or is it more like a Chase? 

948
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:18,800
I'm not entirely sure. 
What that what they use case was

949
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:21,300
there. 
Yeah, I think I think mine's 

950
00:53:21,300 --> 00:53:24,200
going to be on a trip to Japan 
and it was late in the evening 

951
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:26,200
we'd been out. 
It was End of the week, very 

952
00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:30,800
successful, everyone was super 
happy and and for those that 

953
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:33,400
don't know, I speak Japanese, 
right? 

954
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:37,000
So it was, I was in a kind of 
happy comfortable environment 

955
00:53:37,300 --> 00:53:40,000
and somebody goes, we're playing
the game. 

956
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:42,300
That always gets played which is
let's see what we can get the 

957
00:53:42,300 --> 00:53:44,600
Foreigner to eat, right? 
And so we'd been through all the

958
00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:48,200
usual things like tofu. 
Yeah, that's fine. 12, a goal 

959
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:50,800
when you eat hamburgers all the 
time and it's very strange. 

960
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:51,400
I know. 
Yeah. 

961
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:54,800
And that fish and chips thing, 
you know, we done that the, 

962
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:57,500
which is Fermented soybeans, 
which if you've never had it as 

963
00:53:57,500 --> 00:54:00,500
an experience and there is an 
eating technique, which you have

964
00:54:00,500 --> 00:54:05,300
to know to you and then somebody
says, hey, how about raw 

965
00:54:05,300 --> 00:54:08,400
chicken? 
Listen to the correct answer to 

966
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:11,900
this question is, no, I think 
it's time for bed. 

967
00:54:12,500 --> 00:54:15,500
Do not say yes to the raw 
chicken, very bad plan. 

968
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:18,500
I got to ask raw chicken. 
Okay. 

969
00:54:18,500 --> 00:54:21,600
What is the context for? 
I think that's what it tastes 

970
00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:26,100
like. 
It's like, literally It's like 

971
00:54:26,100 --> 00:54:30,700
just pluck, it yourself and 
know, it came in a bowl, I think

972
00:54:30,700 --> 00:54:33,700
it was some kind of marinade, 
but it was entirely uncooked and

973
00:54:33,700 --> 00:54:36,600
it wasn't like a Ceviche where 
you've got, you know, like lemon

974
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:38,700
and stuff. 
It was, it was, I mean, it 

975
00:54:38,700 --> 00:54:43,600
tasted great, the flight home 
the next day was bad. 

976
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:47,000
But you know, I don't think 
that's a meal before a fight. 

977
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:50,700
No, that's not a meal at all. 
I mean, just no, no, no, not 

978
00:54:50,700 --> 00:54:51,900
good. 
Jill about yourself. 

979
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:55,100
There was a fusion restaurant in
the cosmo in Las Vegas. 

980
00:54:55,400 --> 00:54:59,200
And it's a fusion of Chinese 
food and Mexican food. 

981
00:54:59,500 --> 00:55:04,200
And I got the fried oyster Taco,
which I thought sounded 

982
00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:08,300
wonderful but they had some kind
of sauce on it and it was the 

983
00:55:08,300 --> 00:55:10,300
most acidic thing I've ever 
eaten. 

984
00:55:10,500 --> 00:55:12,400
And as I was eating it, I kept 
thinking. 

985
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:15,300
What is this doing to my teeth? 
I got about halfway through and 

986
00:55:15,300 --> 00:55:18,400
I stopped eating it. 
So Eight dollar Taco into the 

987
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:20,400
trash can. 
Yeah, I remember that meal. 

988
00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:22,200
That was one of our see ya 
there. 

989
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:26,500
I, you know, I can't think. 
Anything that I just haven't 

990
00:55:26,500 --> 00:55:28,400
been, super isn't a terrible 
question for me to answer, 

991
00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:31,200
because I just haven't been 
super adventurous on eating 

992
00:55:31,200 --> 00:55:34,900
things like that. 
I would say maybe a shrimp with 

993
00:55:34,900 --> 00:55:37,700
the head still on which you guys
start some work. 

994
00:55:37,700 --> 00:55:39,800
Yeah, I mean that was a stretch 
for me. 

995
00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:43,000
I'm definitely not that 
courageous when it comes to our 

996
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:45,500
things, but I'm willing to try 
things bone marrow. 

997
00:55:45,500 --> 00:55:48,700
I don't know if that's exotic, 
but sure, I'm getting nods 

998
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:51,100
curtain, courtesy knobs in the 
room, so I'll take it. 

999
00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:54,400
All right, we'll go ahead and 
wrap it up for this episode. 

1000
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:57,100
Oh, thank God. 
The window washers here for 

1001
00:55:57,100 --> 00:55:59,700
keeping it to a dull Roar. 
As we're having conversations 

1002
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:02,900
that we want to give a shout-out
to Andrew and Adrienne and 

1003
00:56:02,900 --> 00:56:05,900
others here at Fido for setting 
aside some space for us to 

1004
00:56:05,900 --> 00:56:09,000
podcast that which is very cool.
And then, definitely for Ian and

1005
00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:12,200
Andy joining us and waxing, 
poetic around a whole bunch of 

1006
00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:14,900
different identity topics. 
If you're not familiar with ID 

1007
00:56:14,900 --> 00:56:18,400
Pro, hopefully this helped, I 
definitely a big believer of the

1008
00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:21,200
mission of it. 
ID Pro dot-org go out. 

1009
00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:25,300
Join the membership fee for just
a slack Channel alone is With 

1010
00:56:25,300 --> 00:56:28,100
it. 
So I totally would encourage 

1011
00:56:28,100 --> 00:56:29,800
that. 
So with that, we'll go ahead and

1012
00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:32,000
leave it for this week. 
You find us on the web identity 

1013
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:35,600
of the center.com. 
We're on Twitter at idac podcast

1014
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:37,600
and we'll talk with everyone in 
the next one. 

1015
00:56:41,300 --> 00:56:44,100
Thanks for listening to the 
identity at the center podcast. 

1016
00:56:44,200 --> 00:56:46,600
If you like what you heard, 
don't forget to subscribe and 

1017
00:56:46,600 --> 00:56:49,300
visit us on the web and identity
at the center.com.