1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,280 On October 7th, 2023, our friend Victoria Bertoci passed away of 2 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:06,520 cancer. A couple of weeks prior to that 3 00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:09,320 he reached out to Jim and I asking to record an episode 4 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:12,200 about an RFC that he had been working on, with a plan to 5 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:14,960 release it today, October 9th, 2023. 6 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:18,000 To be honest, in the moment it felt a little bit like a goodbye 7 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:20,240 and I'm glad we were able to connect one last time. 8 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:23,040 The conversation, you'll hear in a bit was recorded on September 9 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:26,680 23rd, 2023, and he passed away just a couple of weeks later. 10 00:00:27,180 --> 00:00:30,140 We are honoring his memory by releasing this episode as we had 11 00:00:30,140 --> 00:00:33,100 agreed to do. Victorio may be gone, but he 12 00:00:33,100 --> 00:00:44,300 will not be forgotten. This is identity at the center. 13 00:00:45,100 --> 00:00:50,740 If it has anything to do with I am, this is the go to podcast 14 00:00:51,260 --> 00:00:54,380 now. Your hosts, Jim McDonald and 15 00:00:54,380 --> 00:01:02,860 Jeff Steadman, welcome to the Identity at the Center podcast. 16 00:01:02,860 --> 00:01:04,459 I'm Jeff and that's Jim. Hey, Jim. 17 00:01:04,739 --> 00:01:07,140 Hey, Jeff, how are you? Oh, not so bad yourself. 18 00:01:07,340 --> 00:01:10,220 I'm doing all right. I'm looking forward to, you 19 00:01:10,220 --> 00:01:12,500 know, getting this episode out to everybody. 20 00:01:12,740 --> 00:01:16,900 He was a really important one. And I hope everyone enjoys it. 21 00:01:17,100 --> 00:01:19,260 Yeah, so just kind of kicked down the 4th wall. 22 00:01:19,260 --> 00:01:22,460 We just had a conversation with Victoria Butochi, who I'm sure 23 00:01:22,460 --> 00:01:23,860 most people in the industry know. 24 00:01:24,320 --> 00:01:29,400 We talked about the new R FC-9470-O OFF 2.0 Step up 25 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:32,080 authentication challenge protocol that just got released. 26 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:35,360 And he also gave us an update on where he stands from the health 27 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:36,800 situation. So I'm sure people in the 28 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:38,400 industry are interested to hear about that. 29 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:39,760 Yeah, why don't we just get right into it? 30 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:43,120 So without further ado, let me introduce the Victorio and we'll 31 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:46,440 hear that conversation next. So we've got Victoria Vertochi. 32 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:49,520 He's a principal architect at OFF 0 and Octa product unit. 33 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:52,000 He's been on the show a few times at this point. 34 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:53,400 Welcome back to the show, Vertorio. 35 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:55,560 Thank you. Thank you, Jeff. 36 00:01:55,560 --> 00:02:00,960 And Jim, last time I believe it was in a suit in Vegas during 37 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:04,080 some Gartner event, I believe it definitely was a Gartner event, 38 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:07,160 that's for sure. That was a fun time and you're 39 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:09,680 you're working on a new thing. This is one of the conversations 40 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:13,920 we're going to talk about today is around this this new Oauth to 41 00:02:13,920 --> 00:02:17,440 Step Up Authentication Challenge protocol that you have an RFC 42 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:21,240 out for RFC 9470 and we'll have a link in our show notes for 43 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:23,640 people to check that out. I guess why don't we start the 44 00:02:23,640 --> 00:02:25,560 basics? What is this? 45 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:26,960 What are you doing? Absolutely. 46 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:31,120 The first thing I'd like to say is that I'm no longer working on 47 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:34,360 it because it is finally an official spec. 48 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:36,920 Congratulations. Thank you. 49 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:39,680 Thank you. It took a remarkably short time 50 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:43,960 because I think that we introduced the idea in May of 51 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:47,080 2022. So it's actually remarkable that 52 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:50,160 it went through so well and this spec is. 53 00:02:51,020 --> 00:02:55,180 I'd say one of the typical things that I like to do, I like 54 00:02:55,180 --> 00:02:58,900 to look at the current situation and see things that are 55 00:02:58,900 --> 00:03:02,180 unaddressed. And in particular, there is this 56 00:03:02,180 --> 00:03:04,020 idea of a step up authentication. 57 00:03:04,460 --> 00:03:08,460 That is an incredibly important scenario because of course we 58 00:03:08,460 --> 00:03:12,620 observe it happening all the time and yet it was absolutely 59 00:03:12,620 --> 00:03:16,980 no standard for it. So everyone that uses features 60 00:03:16,980 --> 00:03:20,420 of a particular platform that we want to use to achieve it. 61 00:03:20,990 --> 00:03:23,710 Which means that there is no interoperable way to do it, 62 00:03:24,070 --> 00:03:29,470 which means that its usage is more limited than it should be. 63 00:03:30,190 --> 00:03:34,870 And so with my friend Brian Campbell in Absolute Luminaire 64 00:03:35,190 --> 00:03:38,430 in the Space of OR, we looked into these and we said, you know 65 00:03:38,430 --> 00:03:44,270 what, why don't we formalize the simplest way to deal with this? 66 00:03:44,710 --> 00:03:47,550 And that's exactly what we've done. 67 00:03:48,110 --> 00:03:52,050 And basically the main point is. You can use the POP 68 00:03:52,050 --> 00:03:55,210 authentication statically. So imagine that you have an app 69 00:03:55,690 --> 00:03:59,450 that calls one method that is read only and one method that is 70 00:03:59,530 --> 00:04:02,930 right. You can have a static table that 71 00:04:02,930 --> 00:04:07,250 says whenever someone asks for this particular thing, they need 72 00:04:07,250 --> 00:04:09,650 to do this level of authentication or this other 73 00:04:09,650 --> 00:04:12,810 level of authentication and that's fine. 74 00:04:13,170 --> 00:04:17,970 But the reality is that things are not that simple because when 75 00:04:17,970 --> 00:04:20,209 at runtime. You have an app that is calling 76 00:04:20,209 --> 00:04:22,450 something. There are information that are 77 00:04:22,530 --> 00:04:26,290 only available at that moment. If I'm buying something, the 78 00:04:26,770 --> 00:04:30,650 cost of the things that I'm buying is only available now 79 00:04:30,650 --> 00:04:33,610 that I'm performing the call. When I asked for the token, 80 00:04:33,930 --> 00:04:38,570 there was not such information. Or now you know that with a I 81 00:04:38,570 --> 00:04:44,170 anomaly detection there are all these risk engine evolution 82 00:04:44,850 --> 00:04:47,930 components that you can place in front of your API. 83 00:04:48,510 --> 00:04:53,230 And visa component analyzes what you're sending and if it decides 84 00:04:53,550 --> 00:04:57,710 that the risk is high, basically it can just refuse a token. 85 00:04:58,070 --> 00:05:00,150 That on paper would be perfectly fine. 86 00:05:00,830 --> 00:05:07,030 So basically what we have done was we extended the error system 87 00:05:07,030 --> 00:05:13,350 of off to add another component. So when you call an API using 88 00:05:13,350 --> 00:05:20,230 off and the API refuses. Because they can send you this 89 00:05:20,230 --> 00:05:23,950 header, this HTTP header with some extra information. 90 00:05:24,350 --> 00:05:30,150 So we extended this adding the requirements that the API has 91 00:05:30,430 --> 00:05:34,630 internal authentication. So now you can send back this 92 00:05:34,630 --> 00:05:38,830 thing called ACR value, which is a buffer, A parameter and a 93 00:05:38,830 --> 00:05:43,150 claim that basically points to one particular authentication 94 00:05:43,150 --> 00:05:46,590 ceremony that is known by the authorization server. 95 00:05:47,270 --> 00:05:51,470 So when the client attends the call, gets back his header and 96 00:05:51,470 --> 00:05:54,670 the error. Now they can turn around, go 97 00:05:54,670 --> 00:05:58,790 back to the authorization server and include this information. 98 00:05:59,510 --> 00:06:04,550 So that if for example the requirement is that they have to 99 00:06:04,550 --> 00:06:08,710 do with both, then the authorization server will know 100 00:06:08,710 --> 00:06:11,470 how to do it. And the interesting part is that 101 00:06:11,870 --> 00:06:15,230 we are extending all authorization server to accept 102 00:06:15,230 --> 00:06:17,440 this parameter. But this parameter already 103 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:21,640 exists in Open Any Connect. I mean, you can do exactly what 104 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:24,440 I just described when you're asking for an ID token. 105 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:29,640 So all we did there was to extend all proper to support 106 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:33,720 this parameter. And I'm a big pragmatist, like I 107 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:38,640 don't like buying the Sky stuff. And the larger majority, well, I 108 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:42,480 cannot say it, but a big number of authorization server 109 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:45,800 implementations out there are also open any connect. 110 00:06:46,350 --> 00:06:50,470 Implementations and so that means that substantially this 111 00:06:50,470 --> 00:06:53,950 stuff is right there, like you don't have to write extra code 112 00:06:54,550 --> 00:06:58,390 and the code that you have to write on the resource server of 113 00:06:58,390 --> 00:07:02,510 API to send back this error and the code you have to put on the 114 00:07:02,510 --> 00:07:07,790 client to accept and forward these requests are trivial, 115 00:07:08,230 --> 00:07:12,030 super simple. So now you can build systems 116 00:07:12,030 --> 00:07:15,590 that are very sophisticated in behavior at runtime. 117 00:07:16,450 --> 00:07:20,650 But are incredibly easy to implement, and in fact I know 118 00:07:20,650 --> 00:07:24,730 that even before this became RFC, there were a number of 119 00:07:24,730 --> 00:07:28,610 people that implemented early drafts just because they needed 120 00:07:28,610 --> 00:07:33,090 it. And this is like a I'm so glad 121 00:07:33,090 --> 00:07:36,970 that I had the chance to see this fruit, because it's such an 122 00:07:36,970 --> 00:07:40,730 important an important spec. What do you think? 123 00:07:41,610 --> 00:07:46,030 Yeah, Victoria, you had the. Had the podcast. 124 00:07:46,710 --> 00:07:52,390 Identity Unlocked was a fantastic podcast to get into a 125 00:07:52,830 --> 00:07:55,910 lot of the standards. I think you know I I listened to 126 00:07:55,910 --> 00:07:58,150 a lot of episodes and really enjoyed it. 127 00:07:58,910 --> 00:08:01,830 I also realized that sometimes that Lane was going a little 128 00:08:01,830 --> 00:08:04,910 fast for me. So forgive me if some of my 129 00:08:04,910 --> 00:08:09,710 questions are very basic, but I'm trying to understand within 130 00:08:09,710 --> 00:08:15,190 the Oauth 2 world. It seems like Okay we have the 131 00:08:15,190 --> 00:08:19,270 Oauth 2 standard and now we have Rfcs that go on top of that. 132 00:08:19,270 --> 00:08:23,310 At some point will they be rolled into Oauth 3 or Oauth 133 00:08:23,310 --> 00:08:25,630 2.1? How exactly? 134 00:08:26,510 --> 00:08:29,990 If you could very simply explain how is that going to work. 135 00:08:30,830 --> 00:08:35,429 So the general idea we've off is that offer is a framework, there 136 00:08:35,429 --> 00:08:40,590 is a course back, a couple of course backs that define the 137 00:08:40,590 --> 00:08:43,240 core scenarios. And then define the rule of the 138 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:45,840 games when you want to extend this back. 139 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:50,160 We didn't want to boil the ocean by taking everything into 140 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:52,600 account. And in fact The thing is that 141 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:57,120 the new scenarios that are part of the extensions are scenarios 142 00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:00,720 that emerged. Has the industry evolved so we 143 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:03,520 couldn't have everything packed into there. 144 00:09:03,680 --> 00:09:08,640 So by design, technically we could go forever with these off 145 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:16,350 to the core and extensions now. A small group of I don't know 146 00:09:16,630 --> 00:09:21,350 Good Samaritans and don't know how to define them decided to 147 00:09:22,350 --> 00:09:27,470 created off to the one version of the spec which substantially 148 00:09:27,830 --> 00:09:33,270 takes some of the most fundamental extensions and the 149 00:09:33,990 --> 00:09:38,910 security best practices and integrate that into the off to 150 00:09:38,910 --> 00:09:42,080 the one. I don't think there is much talk 151 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:45,400 of the off free. That's all because of the the 152 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:48,920 challenge that you have in here is also that the bigger the 153 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:54,040 install base you have the more you cannot make a radical 154 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:56,640 changes because you'd break stuff. 155 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:03,080 In fact, there have been a tense to start from scratch but the 156 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:06,320 outside of off. But we didn't go very far 157 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:12,520 because off works and. People keep adding stuff on it 158 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:15,720 and now it's not just a matter of techies. 159 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:20,720 There are things like a Foppi, the financial grade API's which 160 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:24,400 is the final operating but is all based on off which is now 161 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:30,040 used officially for certifying the banks and insurances and 162 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:33,400 similar. So you build on top of these and 163 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:37,520 then you have to be very careful into not breaking people, 164 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:42,240 especially because often. We are techies and we have a bit 165 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:46,400 of a city, you know, putting the books in the bookshelf in the 166 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:51,600 right height order and similar. But in fact, if you do that and 167 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:55,680 then you break the actual business scenarios, then we are 168 00:10:55,680 --> 00:10:58,400 not in a good place. I think that's the part that is 169 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:02,400 sometimes confusing for people is this idea of a core framework 170 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:05,160 and then the extensions. And I feel like at some point 171 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:09,190 the extensions become so popular and so prevalent and at what 172 00:11:09,190 --> 00:11:11,470 point do they become part of the core frameworks? 173 00:11:11,710 --> 00:11:13,870 I think is I think that's always a challenge, right? 174 00:11:13,870 --> 00:11:17,030 Because I think you probably want to maintain compatibility, 175 00:11:17,030 --> 00:11:19,030 right, as much as possible going backwards. 176 00:11:19,550 --> 00:11:22,430 But at some point, you know, you get, you know, step up 177 00:11:22,430 --> 00:11:24,510 authentication. This is not a new thing, right? 178 00:11:24,510 --> 00:11:28,110 It's been around for a while, but now it's an actual, you 179 00:11:28,110 --> 00:11:30,950 know, RFC, it's part, it's an extension, It's how people can 180 00:11:30,950 --> 00:11:33,110 take use it in a standard way, which is fantastic. 181 00:11:33,630 --> 00:11:38,840 Do we run the risk of, I guess what risk do we run if we don't 182 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:42,120 continue to either build extensions like that and sort of 183 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:45,800 agree on the way that those methodologies work versus yeah, 184 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:50,520 it's time for a Oauth 2.1 or 3.0 or whatever it may be to push 185 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:52,600 either security or interoperability forward? 186 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:59,520 Right, so here there is a the formal aspect and then there is 187 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:02,080 a bit of like readability aspect. 188 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:06,240 Formally, the extensions are always incremental. 189 00:12:06,870 --> 00:12:08,830 So normally you don't break anything. 190 00:12:09,550 --> 00:12:13,830 It's only forward compatible, but never backward compatible. 191 00:12:14,590 --> 00:12:19,990 And the consolidation can happen for things that are absolutely 192 00:12:20,030 --> 00:12:25,190 obvious, like for example, Pixie is a method for protecting the 193 00:12:25,190 --> 00:12:29,270 code physician code, and at first it was devised for one 194 00:12:29,270 --> 00:12:31,750 particular scenario, but it turned out that there are 195 00:12:31,750 --> 00:12:34,190 certain attacks that happen all the time. 196 00:12:34,570 --> 00:12:37,050 And so Pixie is one of the things that is being now 197 00:12:37,610 --> 00:12:40,930 integrated enough to that one. So now if you want to be 198 00:12:40,930 --> 00:12:44,490 compliant with off to that one, you must support Pixie. 199 00:12:45,010 --> 00:12:48,210 The thing is that most implementations they do already 200 00:12:48,730 --> 00:12:53,290 because it was an important requirement, the consolidation 201 00:12:53,290 --> 00:12:58,490 in the two. That one is a bit trying to make 202 00:12:58,490 --> 00:13:02,490 it easier to discover that those things exist, because now you 203 00:13:02,490 --> 00:13:06,820 have like Visa. Huge graph of extensions that 204 00:13:07,220 --> 00:13:10,220 it's hard to navigate. So off to that. 205 00:13:10,220 --> 00:13:14,580 One is bringing in some of the fundamentals, the things that 206 00:13:14,580 --> 00:13:18,140 really you shouldn't miss. But it's more of a readability 207 00:13:18,140 --> 00:13:23,540 thing because in theory, even if you just keep doing extensions, 208 00:13:23,620 --> 00:13:26,060 everything is there. So I think you mentioned that 209 00:13:26,060 --> 00:13:30,940 you that this started in May I believe is that when this picked 210 00:13:30,940 --> 00:13:32,060 up I. Believe that's. 211 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:35,480 That's when it started. Somewhere around there. 212 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:39,640 But still from, I mean that's only four months to get it into. 213 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:44,720 I know wait may or 22/22/22, so all right so year and but still 214 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:46,960 that's still relatively quickly right for something like this to 215 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:49,720 move forward? It's super, super quick, yes. 216 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:52,040 Why do you think that is? Like, why? 217 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:53,920 Why would? Why did this one move so much 218 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:55,440 more quicker than maybe other ones? 219 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:59,400 Scope. A scope was very small, a 220 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:04,220 scenario was very clear and. So there was very little 221 00:14:04,220 --> 00:14:06,580 controversy. The interesting part is that the 222 00:14:06,580 --> 00:14:11,300 controversy demonstrated that everyone thinks slightly 223 00:14:11,300 --> 00:14:15,700 different of what step up means and so a lot of the worker was 224 00:14:15,700 --> 00:14:19,860 into reaching common ground. Like for example, the idea of 225 00:14:19,860 --> 00:14:26,820 step up is a misnomer because there is no intrinsic hierarchy 226 00:14:26,820 --> 00:14:30,460 of methods that might be the exact same 2 tokens. 227 00:14:31,150 --> 00:14:34,430 That the pending of the mood of the API. 228 00:14:34,430 --> 00:14:37,870 You can accept one and not accept the other and one hour 229 00:14:37,870 --> 00:14:40,390 later vice versa. So you cannot say that one 230 00:14:40,390 --> 00:14:45,350 method is higher than the other. But in the vast majority of 231 00:14:45,350 --> 00:14:50,830 cases it's usually a step up, as in the classic I move from read 232 00:14:50,830 --> 00:14:56,110 only to write and then there are also lots of other complications 233 00:14:56,110 --> 00:15:02,290 like when I get these new token. Should I also hold on to the to 234 00:15:02,290 --> 00:15:05,290 the old one? And normally the answer is yes, 235 00:15:05,730 --> 00:15:08,890 because when you token might be specialized for that particular 236 00:15:08,890 --> 00:15:13,970 call or might have like a shorter like a might be short 237 00:15:13,970 --> 00:15:16,370 lived and so the user experience will be bad. 238 00:15:16,970 --> 00:15:21,450 So all these considerations came to light as part of the 239 00:15:21,450 --> 00:15:26,890 discussion, but in the end there was no controversy about the 240 00:15:26,970 --> 00:15:30,120 need for this particular thing. And also like record was 241 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:35,640 literally trivia at the same time of the of the of the our 242 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:38,840 publication. They also published the POP 243 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:43,400 which is an incredibly important spec, but instead it took a very 244 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,760 long time. It took a very long time because 245 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:50,240 it's complex. Basically the pop allow you to 246 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:53,800 do send their constraint protection on the tokens, so if 247 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:57,280 someone steals the token if they don't have the right key 248 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:00,260 material. They cannot reuse it and it's 249 00:16:00,260 --> 00:16:02,900 all negotiated at runtime, so you don't need it to do 250 00:16:02,900 --> 00:16:06,060 complicated stuff like distributing certificates. 251 00:16:06,580 --> 00:16:10,380 It's an incredibly important spec, which is also called for 252 00:16:10,380 --> 00:16:14,100 the by Brian Campbell, which has his hands everywhere. 253 00:16:15,740 --> 00:16:22,700 And yeah, actually my spec, our spec was dependent on the POP 254 00:16:23,300 --> 00:16:26,300 because we had the reference in our. 255 00:16:26,910 --> 00:16:32,230 References section to depot and we couldn't go RFC until they 256 00:16:32,230 --> 00:16:36,830 would get an RFC number. And so it was a week in which I 257 00:16:36,830 --> 00:16:40,350 was refreshing every day. I paid you to see if they 258 00:16:40,350 --> 00:16:43,230 actually, that sounds to me like the equivalent of like Google 259 00:16:43,230 --> 00:16:46,030 searching like your own name and looking for, you know what's the 260 00:16:46,030 --> 00:16:48,830 news about me today is you're looking for like, did this thing 261 00:16:48,830 --> 00:16:53,590 get passed or not? Believe it or not, years ago I 262 00:16:53,590 --> 00:16:57,910 used it to do it. Now it's pointless because there 263 00:16:57,910 --> 00:17:04,470 is so much auto generated spam content that if you do want, but 264 00:17:04,470 --> 00:17:07,710 I occasionally do it on Slack because there will be 265 00:17:07,710 --> 00:17:10,990 discussions in which people mention me but they don't act 266 00:17:10,990 --> 00:17:14,710 mention me. And it's so easy because once 267 00:17:14,710 --> 00:17:17,790 you land in there and you say, ha ha, and people sometimes 268 00:17:17,829 --> 00:17:19,510 don't realize we were on a public channel. 269 00:17:19,710 --> 00:17:23,480 And so I like, I like the acknowledgements that you made 270 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:26,040 at the end of the RFC spec, thanking the Academy, the 271 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:28,600 viewers at home and the shampoo manufacturers. 272 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:32,480 I thought that was really funny. That was actually Brian's idea. 273 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:37,240 And was it OK? Brian this week wrote a blog 274 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:41,920 post about the spec and about myself and my state of health, 275 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:48,880 and he wrote it on the official Ping blog, which is about that. 276 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:51,780 Absolutely, really good. Absolutely remarkable. 277 00:17:53,820 --> 00:17:56,100 Do you want to give an update on what's been going on with your 278 00:17:56,100 --> 00:17:57,820 health? Sure. 279 00:17:58,500 --> 00:18:01,660 Well, they this, the basic story is pretty simple. 280 00:18:02,220 --> 00:18:06,940 At the end of June, I discovered that I have pancreatic cancer, 281 00:18:07,420 --> 00:18:11,260 which is one of the worst kinds. We've spread to the liver and 282 00:18:11,260 --> 00:18:14,740 the lungs and I started treatment. 283 00:18:15,180 --> 00:18:19,700 I cut my hair myself and there is a video of Instagram that 284 00:18:19,700 --> 00:18:21,360 shows. That I do it. 285 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:25,680 It's a time lapse is it will be funny if it was not be tragic 286 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:33,240 but but at the beginning of August the cancer caused a very 287 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:40,760 severe bleeding like I almost bleed out and I was one week 288 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:45,800 intubated and my organs shut down. 289 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:50,860 But somehow the doctors. I am with the Virginia Mason in 290 00:18:50,860 --> 00:18:53,100 Seattle. They are incredible. 291 00:18:53,660 --> 00:18:58,700 The doctor somehow saved me, but this thing left me with 20 292 00:18:58,700 --> 00:19:03,100 pounds thinner, like my muscle is gone. 293 00:19:03,820 --> 00:19:08,540 My kidneys started working very recently and so right now I am 294 00:19:09,340 --> 00:19:15,300 recovering from that event and until until I'm strong enough to 295 00:19:15,980 --> 00:19:19,520 to restart chemo. But unfortunately the meanwhile 296 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:24,080 what's happening is that the cancer is gone, is still ongoing 297 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:25,880 because it's completely unchecked. 298 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:28,920 So when people ask me how are you? 299 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:31,920 Or they see that I moved it from the hospital to the house, they 300 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,680 think like it's improvement. And it's true, like I feel a 301 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:38,800 little better every day, but I'm still. 302 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:43,800 It's like if you break your your arm on the Titanic and then 303 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:47,880 every day your arm feels better, but the Titanic is still going. 304 00:19:48,380 --> 00:19:52,820 To water the iceberg. So I am in this kind of tricky 305 00:19:52,820 --> 00:19:57,380 situation, which as you can imagine is not fantastic. 306 00:19:57,820 --> 00:20:03,580 But at the same time, I have to admit that I had an incredible 307 00:20:03,580 --> 00:20:08,380 life. Like I started as a 10th of 10 308 00:20:08,380 --> 00:20:15,580 kids of a janitor, so as you can imagine, sleeping in six people 309 00:20:15,580 --> 00:20:20,700 in the same room. I started working at age 15 for 310 00:20:21,220 --> 00:20:27,300 covering my studies and like I did all sorts of jobs and I 311 00:20:27,300 --> 00:20:31,860 would have never, ever dreamed of achieving the level of 312 00:20:31,860 --> 00:20:35,540 success that I got. Absolutely never. 313 00:20:36,540 --> 00:20:41,580 I am incredibly grateful when I when I made some messages on 314 00:20:41,580 --> 00:20:47,250 social about my condition, I received literally thousands of 315 00:20:47,250 --> 00:20:48,930 messages. Thousands. 316 00:20:49,810 --> 00:20:55,410 And a lot of them were from people I know, all mentors, I 317 00:20:55,450 --> 00:20:59,250 had colleagues and also my company. 318 00:20:59,250 --> 00:21:02,010 Octa is being incredible in this. 319 00:21:02,450 --> 00:21:06,930 I'm being supported in ways that I'm in all everyday. 320 00:21:07,730 --> 00:21:13,090 But the thing that hit me was that so many of those messages 321 00:21:13,530 --> 00:21:20,010 were of strangers that told me how I influenced their career, 322 00:21:20,610 --> 00:21:24,810 that some of their life choices. And they went very specific 323 00:21:25,490 --> 00:21:30,690 saying I was at that conference in that session and he said his 324 00:21:30,690 --> 00:21:34,010 finger. And I decided that this was 325 00:21:34,010 --> 00:21:37,570 going to be my career and now a director in post X. 326 00:21:38,050 --> 00:21:44,130 So it's an incredible blessing to have done this and although 327 00:21:44,210 --> 00:21:48,910 it's very hard to accept once mortality, the reality is that 328 00:21:50,390 --> 00:21:52,910 we can work out at anytime and be hit by a bus. 329 00:21:53,630 --> 00:21:57,550 The only difference between the ME and normal people is that now 330 00:21:57,550 --> 00:22:00,630 I'm forced to think about my mortality every day. 331 00:22:01,190 --> 00:22:05,030 But in practice there is not like nothing much difference. 332 00:22:05,510 --> 00:22:09,790 It's easy to say it's harder to internalize, but I'm trying very 333 00:22:09,790 --> 00:22:12,510 hard. I'm doing Visa Up from Sam 334 00:22:12,510 --> 00:22:17,080 Harris, one of my favorite philosophers called the Waking 335 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:20,560 Up. It's a meditation up and it's so 336 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:22,440 much better than everything else I've tried. 337 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:27,400 So if people are interested in mindfulness, highly recommend 338 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:29,360 it. Victoria, I know you touched so 339 00:22:29,360 --> 00:22:31,720 many people. I want to bring up 1. 340 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:36,480 So I was talking with Steven Strong, who I know you worked 341 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:42,000 with at All Zero and later Octa, and he was like the story was 342 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,000 very supposed like the first time he met you. 343 00:22:44,590 --> 00:22:47,070 He sat down I guess in the cubicle across from you and he's 344 00:22:47,070 --> 00:22:53,430 like, who's this guy? I thought it was just such a a 345 00:22:53,430 --> 00:22:57,510 cool and kind of cute story because you guys became very 346 00:22:57,510 --> 00:23:01,910 good friends and you know Steve and I know is a listener of the 347 00:23:01,910 --> 00:23:05,510 show and I I I'm sure he'll enjoy that that I brought. 348 00:23:05,510 --> 00:23:09,790 That up, I remember seeing you at so many conferences and I 349 00:23:09,790 --> 00:23:13,370 would attend all of your. Talk your your talks, right. 350 00:23:13,370 --> 00:23:16,010 Your presentations because you had such a different way of 351 00:23:16,010 --> 00:23:17,530 approaching it. It was funny and it was 352 00:23:17,530 --> 00:23:20,610 entertaining. And I think we've modeled a 353 00:23:20,610 --> 00:23:22,730 little bit of this that, you know this this sort of podcast 354 00:23:22,730 --> 00:23:24,610 sort of off of that thing. Like yeah, you know it's 355 00:23:24,610 --> 00:23:27,970 identity actions, management. We can have fun still or at 356 00:23:27,970 --> 00:23:29,290 least try to make it entertaining. 357 00:23:29,730 --> 00:23:33,130 And yeah, I think I finally, you know, worked up the courage at 358 00:23:33,130 --> 00:23:36,050 some point to kind of introduce myself and, you know, your 359 00:23:36,050 --> 00:23:38,650 support for what we've been doing here and just the industry 360 00:23:38,650 --> 00:23:41,890 at large has been, I mean just. Outstanding. 361 00:23:41,890 --> 00:23:46,130 So I don't think I can add more to that other than just you know 362 00:23:47,130 --> 00:23:50,210 it's, it's how much you've meant to the industry. 363 00:23:50,530 --> 00:23:52,170 I think it's been great that you've been getting the 364 00:23:52,170 --> 00:23:54,450 outpouring of support that you have from folks all over the 365 00:23:54,450 --> 00:23:57,450 world and people who took the time to actually write things 366 00:23:57,450 --> 00:23:58,810 and reach out and stuff like that. 367 00:23:58,810 --> 00:24:03,410 It's, you know, it's a difficult situation sometimes, but being 368 00:24:03,410 --> 00:24:05,930 aware of it, I think is always validating too as well, right? 369 00:24:06,730 --> 00:24:09,810 Absolutely. And you guys are doing an 370 00:24:09,810 --> 00:24:11,670 incredible job. I'd save it. 371 00:24:11,670 --> 00:24:15,990 Now if you were to stop doing what you're doing, there would 372 00:24:15,990 --> 00:24:21,070 be a hole and you'd see people like running around like the 373 00:24:21,070 --> 00:24:25,830 headed chickens because like you really are of a spoke of the 374 00:24:25,830 --> 00:24:30,190 identity wheel and your podcast is so important and you guys are 375 00:24:30,190 --> 00:24:33,470 doing such a good job with it. I know that people absolutely 376 00:24:33,470 --> 00:24:37,030 love it and I love it. Well, we appreciate. 377 00:24:37,190 --> 00:24:38,390 That thank you. Yeah. 378 00:24:38,390 --> 00:24:41,500 Thank you so much. You want to wrap up on a lighter 379 00:24:41,500 --> 00:24:44,220 note. I know that you and I, but way 380 00:24:44,220 --> 00:24:46,820 more you than me. Let's just be very clear here 381 00:24:47,660 --> 00:24:51,420 are into the VR and the AR spaces and things like that. 382 00:24:52,740 --> 00:24:56,100 Apple Vision Pro is coming out at some point here in the near 383 00:24:56,100 --> 00:24:58,500 future. What is going to be the first 384 00:24:58,500 --> 00:25:02,060 thing that you do with it? Because I know you're getting it 385 00:25:02,060 --> 00:25:07,780 right, Yes, absolutely. I don't think that the API would 386 00:25:07,780 --> 00:25:11,960 allow it, but the first thing I'd like to do it is instead of 387 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:15,760 the eyes that under the original screen, how do you do the googly 388 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:20,160 eyes so that when you move around the googly eyes. 389 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:25,840 But apart from that, I think that that thing has an enormous 390 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:31,960 potential for a R For me like a VR is a fun about celipsy stick 391 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:36,960 and AR is truly where you can augment. 392 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:43,330 Then like I think that the ones we love viable hardware like 393 00:25:43,730 --> 00:25:45,770 that finger is great in terms of output. 394 00:25:46,170 --> 00:25:50,330 I believe that it can give a right experience, but you can't 395 00:25:50,650 --> 00:25:54,130 go on there on the bus, on the bus with it. 396 00:25:54,850 --> 00:25:59,010 Whereas instead I think that the augmented reality is going to be 397 00:25:59,930 --> 00:26:05,290 as much of A cognitive revolution as writing has been. 398 00:26:05,970 --> 00:26:12,180 Because I just think you can add a layer of meaning to absolutely 399 00:26:12,380 --> 00:26:17,220 everything apart from the like. Forget the privacy stuff, which 400 00:26:17,220 --> 00:26:20,420 of course is going to be such a huge huge problem. 401 00:26:20,860 --> 00:26:26,340 But imagine everything like how you approach a machine and on 402 00:26:26,340 --> 00:26:28,860 top of it there are the instructions and how to operate 403 00:26:28,860 --> 00:26:32,140 it. Or in a simple guidance for 404 00:26:32,140 --> 00:26:38,060 going around or attaching notes like or like a. 405 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:46,280 Think of truly augmented cognition like this system sees 406 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:48,800 everything you have seen and save it somewhere. 407 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,960 And then when I see it again at the border of your vision, they 408 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,680 are like these all the distances that you can go and refer to. 409 00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:01,600 Like I'm convinced that the generation that will have access 410 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:08,110 to viable hardware plus the A I can now can help query with 411 00:27:08,110 --> 00:27:11,070 enormous amount of information that you load. 412 00:27:11,590 --> 00:27:18,270 They will be different like they grow up just like the brain of 413 00:27:18,270 --> 00:27:21,990 people changed. You know there was no grammar 414 00:27:21,990 --> 00:27:25,070 like people winged it when we were talking before writing 415 00:27:25,470 --> 00:27:29,950 instead after writing. Not just the grammar, but a lot 416 00:27:29,950 --> 00:27:32,870 of interesting changes happened in recognition. 417 00:27:33,310 --> 00:27:38,190 If you read the shallows from don't remember the name of the 418 00:27:38,190 --> 00:27:42,270 guy that speaks about cognitive revolutions, I'm convinced that 419 00:27:42,270 --> 00:27:45,710 that one will be big and our generation might not even 420 00:27:45,710 --> 00:27:48,390 approve. Like imagine someone that once 421 00:27:48,390 --> 00:27:52,910 they take off their glasses they are only a fraction of 422 00:27:52,910 --> 00:27:56,390 themselves. But on the other hand, it's kind 423 00:27:56,390 --> 00:27:59,430 of like when people started saying, oh, but if you Google 424 00:27:59,430 --> 00:28:01,230 everything, you don't learn anything. 425 00:28:01,830 --> 00:28:06,000 Well, but it's so convenient and as it turns out, we the 426 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,880 generation of people that only Googles it doesn't study in 427 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:15,560 depth, they seem to be doing OK. So anyway, yes, I'm very excited 428 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:19,600 what they are. Yeah, I am too. 429 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:24,800 My problem with it isn't the technology itself, other than 430 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:29,640 the way it looks. I just feel awkward being on the 431 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:31,360 bleeding edge of things sometimes. 432 00:28:31,360 --> 00:28:33,400 So I remember when I first got my air pods. 433 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:35,480 I had them before like anybody else did. 434 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,400 I got locked out. And you know, they were very 435 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:40,920 high in demands. And, you know, I'm a Apple 436 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:44,240 fanboy and I've never putting them on O'Hare airport. 437 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,640 And people were staring at me like, oh, he's got the apple air 438 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:52,040 pots, you know, It was like whispers and hushed tones and 439 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,680 like reverence. And it made me very 440 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:58,560 uncomfortable and selfconscious. And I'm thinking about strapping 441 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,040 these. I mean, they're big, this ski 442 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:05,520 mask goggle, right? You know what it looks like, and 443 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:10,440 I just don't know. Using in public terrifies me 444 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,400 right now because of the looks I'm not going to get. 445 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:16,840 I don't think that you'll see a lot of stuff in public. 446 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,880 You might see it in some workplaces for people that want 447 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,880 to be bleeding as what why they're so big and they are such 448 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:27,640 short autonomy. Also think that the apps at 449 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,720 first will not be geared to outdoor use. 450 00:29:31,740 --> 00:29:37,740 Will mostly be things like place this new piece of furniture in 451 00:29:37,740 --> 00:29:41,780 your in your room so that you know exactly what it will look 452 00:29:41,780 --> 00:29:45,380 like once you buy it. Stuff like that, probably. 453 00:29:46,420 --> 00:29:48,460 Well, they're definitely playing up to like, the media 454 00:29:48,460 --> 00:29:51,100 consumption angle, right? Being able to like watch Netflix 455 00:29:51,100 --> 00:29:55,860 on this certain size screen, and I travel a lot by plane, I think 456 00:29:56,020 --> 00:29:57,380 that would be pretty cool and nice. 457 00:29:57,660 --> 00:29:59,460 And I think it's like I'm gonna look like a real dork. 458 00:30:00,670 --> 00:30:02,870 You know, wearing, wearing these things and I think at some 459 00:30:03,110 --> 00:30:07,030 point. Yeah, I actually years ago 460 00:30:08,790 --> 00:30:15,550 brought by Oculus and used it on the plane and yeah, they wear 461 00:30:15,550 --> 00:30:18,110 the stairs and similar. The interesting thing is what 462 00:30:18,110 --> 00:30:22,070 was my first Oculus but that they pass through so that you 463 00:30:22,070 --> 00:30:24,910 could see the surroundings. And I remember a flight 464 00:30:24,910 --> 00:30:27,870 attendant that came to me and looked at me completely 465 00:30:27,870 --> 00:30:29,750 convinced that I couldn't see her. 466 00:30:30,210 --> 00:30:32,770 And I turn to her and saying can I help you? 467 00:30:33,170 --> 00:30:38,170 And she was. And I wrote a blog post about 468 00:30:38,170 --> 00:30:42,130 the experience and then I can tell you how. 469 00:30:42,690 --> 00:30:49,370 But I've been shown that in the triage list of the of the Oculus 470 00:30:49,850 --> 00:30:52,330 they were references to parts of my blog. 471 00:30:53,130 --> 00:30:57,290 And so I think I can claim that some of the features that we 472 00:30:57,290 --> 00:31:01,050 have now came from my blog complaining about it on the 473 00:31:01,050 --> 00:31:04,090 play. That's that's a good claim to 474 00:31:04,090 --> 00:31:05,570 fame. I I'm excited about it. 475 00:31:05,570 --> 00:31:09,370 I think it'll be I'm torn whether or not I'll be in the 476 00:31:09,370 --> 00:31:11,250 first Gen. or not. I know it's going to be you know 477 00:31:11,250 --> 00:31:13,850 extremely expensive for a first Gen. product. 478 00:31:13,850 --> 00:31:16,890 I think the rumor of I've heard is summer routine like 3000 and 479 00:31:16,890 --> 00:31:20,530 $4000 to start, which leads me to believe it's going to be 480 00:31:20,530 --> 00:31:23,130 probably more expensive. You know, past that for whatever 481 00:31:23,130 --> 00:31:28,010 addons and stuff like that, but it seems like such a cool thing 482 00:31:28,010 --> 00:31:30,070 and. You know, I'm sitting here in a 483 00:31:30,070 --> 00:31:31,910 hotel room, we're recording this. 484 00:31:32,190 --> 00:31:35,070 I can absolutely see a point where instead of me looking at 485 00:31:35,070 --> 00:31:40,030 my laptop screen is we're doing this over a R through and my 486 00:31:40,030 --> 00:31:43,030 screen is my AR glasses or whatever. 487 00:31:43,030 --> 00:31:46,190 You know, I'm having to be using that becomes the monitor for 488 00:31:46,190 --> 00:31:49,590 your computing life, right? Maybe it runs off of a pack like 489 00:31:49,590 --> 00:31:52,430 your iPhone or you know in the Samsung world they have like 490 00:31:52,430 --> 00:31:56,030 decks, which is kind of like a quasi desktop type environment 491 00:31:56,030 --> 00:31:58,430 thing. And it's super cool and super 492 00:31:58,430 --> 00:32:00,870 exciting for me and I can't wait. 493 00:32:01,590 --> 00:32:03,950 But at the same time, I know it's going to be interesting 494 00:32:03,950 --> 00:32:08,310 watching the social sort of acceptance of, oh, there goes 495 00:32:08,310 --> 00:32:12,070 that weirdo with the glasses again versus there goes that 496 00:32:12,070 --> 00:32:15,150 weirdo not wearing the glasses again, you know. 497 00:32:16,390 --> 00:32:20,350 Yeah, remember the glass holes? Yep, Yep. 498 00:32:20,910 --> 00:32:23,150 Yeah. Google Glasses and they're 499 00:32:23,310 --> 00:32:26,310 they're short commercial lifespan, I think they've taken 500 00:32:26,310 --> 00:32:29,390 on. Some some use cases in the 501 00:32:29,430 --> 00:32:32,790 enterprise and kind of thing. Yeah, they tried, but I think I 502 00:32:32,790 --> 00:32:36,550 heard recently that they are winding that part down as well. 503 00:32:38,550 --> 00:32:44,030 Pity like a Google add really interesting stuff for for VR. 504 00:32:44,750 --> 00:32:51,830 Like a Tilt Brush is a fantastic drawing, but he's investing most 505 00:32:51,830 --> 00:32:55,500 of that stuff. When I got my HTC Vive, which is 506 00:32:55,500 --> 00:32:57,660 sort of which would have been the Oculus competitor at the 507 00:32:57,660 --> 00:33:01,100 time, Tilt Brush was the thing that I would show off to people 508 00:33:01,100 --> 00:33:05,100 as like, this is what this is about, like Imagine, right? 509 00:33:05,100 --> 00:33:07,900 It was very much a tech demo, but there were some really 510 00:33:07,900 --> 00:33:10,180 talented artists doing some crazy stuff within it. 511 00:33:10,180 --> 00:33:12,460 And for people aren't familiar, Tilt Brush is kind of like this 512 00:33:12,980 --> 00:33:16,860 three if you took like Windows Paint or Microsoft Paint and 513 00:33:16,860 --> 00:33:21,220 turned it into a 3D scenario where you have like a brush and 514 00:33:21,220 --> 00:33:23,140 you can choose different styles and colors. 515 00:33:23,500 --> 00:33:27,700 But you paint in 3D inside of a cube, and there were some 516 00:33:27,700 --> 00:33:30,460 amazing things that you could do, You know, with that sort of 517 00:33:30,460 --> 00:33:32,860 concept. There's almost like 3D modeling, 518 00:33:32,860 --> 00:33:36,020 but by hand. Oh yeah, And now there are so 519 00:33:36,020 --> 00:33:40,700 many apps, including modelers, that are absolutely incredible. 520 00:33:41,380 --> 00:33:44,420 I wish I'd have more time. And now that I have short hair, 521 00:33:44,860 --> 00:33:46,660 I can actually use this thing better. 522 00:33:47,260 --> 00:33:53,710 Before with all the fluff it was always if I use it then my 523 00:33:53,710 --> 00:33:56,630 volume. I wasn't at the bright side, 524 00:33:57,470 --> 00:33:59,230 Jim. I know you're you're you're not 525 00:33:59,230 --> 00:34:01,830 super into the ARVR stuff, but what are your thoughts? 526 00:34:02,910 --> 00:34:05,390 Conceptually, I love it. I mean, I think it. 527 00:34:05,750 --> 00:34:10,110 I think as humans we're already able to have so many more 528 00:34:10,110 --> 00:34:13,949 experiences than people in the past that have, especially in 529 00:34:13,949 --> 00:34:18,150 terms of travel. You want to go to the beach, get 530 00:34:18,150 --> 00:34:21,429 on an airplane, go to the beach. You want to go to the mountains? 531 00:34:21,429 --> 00:34:22,830 You want to go to other countries. 532 00:34:23,290 --> 00:34:27,250 You can do all those things. I think with it VR you could 533 00:34:27,250 --> 00:34:32,409 potentially go anywhere. So you know, I think that's a 534 00:34:32,409 --> 00:34:35,210 really exciting thing. I think also using it for 535 00:34:35,210 --> 00:34:39,530 exactly the the thing you brought up in terms of having 536 00:34:39,530 --> 00:34:41,929 meetings and things like that, I think all that's exciting. 537 00:34:41,929 --> 00:34:44,370 So yeah, I love the concept. All right. 538 00:34:44,370 --> 00:34:46,330 Well, why don't we go ahead and leave it there for this week. 539 00:34:47,050 --> 00:34:49,690 Pretorio, as always, thank you so much for joining us. 540 00:34:50,290 --> 00:34:52,330 I'll have a. Bunch of links on our show notes 541 00:34:52,330 --> 00:34:55,050 based on this conversation. So congratulations again on the 542 00:34:55,050 --> 00:34:58,490 RFC 9470. I'll put a link to that. 543 00:34:58,810 --> 00:35:03,250 I'll put a link to Brian's Ping blog posts sort of about the 544 00:35:03,250 --> 00:35:06,690 about what's been going on and then anything else that we 545 00:35:06,690 --> 00:35:09,330 mentioned, I'll dig up and and put links for that as well. 546 00:35:09,330 --> 00:35:11,250 So thank you so much for taking the time with us. 547 00:35:11,250 --> 00:35:13,250 Any final thoughts as we wrap things up for this week? 548 00:35:13,570 --> 00:35:19,010 Thank you so much for having me. Sorry for my short winded voice, 549 00:35:19,820 --> 00:35:22,980 but as always is great to chat with you guys. 550 00:35:23,260 --> 00:35:25,540 Thank you. We love you, Victorio. 551 00:35:25,540 --> 00:35:27,060 Thank you for coming on the show again. 552 00:35:27,060 --> 00:35:28,340 We're gonna go. Out and leave it there. 553 00:35:28,340 --> 00:35:30,260 So thanks, Victorio. Thanks, Jim. 554 00:35:30,340 --> 00:35:33,420 And yeah, I'm gonna do just a normal outro just be like that's 555 00:35:33,420 --> 00:35:35,420 it. So we'll talk with everyone in 556 00:35:35,420 --> 00:35:36,980 the next one. Thank you guys. 557 00:35:39,670 --> 00:35:42,710 You've been listening to Identity at the Center. 558 00:35:43,030 --> 00:35:47,110 We hope you've enjoyed the show. Make sure to like, rate and 559 00:35:47,110 --> 00:35:50,750 review and we'll be back soon. But in the meantime, hit the 560 00:35:50,750 --> 00:35:54,910 website at identity@thecenter.com and find 561 00:35:54,910 --> 00:36:02,310 us on Twitter at IDAC Podcast. See you next time on identity at 562 00:36:02,310 --> 00:36:03,270 the center.