1 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:11,960 This is IDENTITY at the Center. Welcome to the Identity Center 2 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:13,720 podcast. I'm Jim McDonald. 3 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:17,800 Unfortunately, Jeff Stedman is under the weather today, could 4 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:20,480 join us. And it's really his loss because 5 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:24,600 we've got a fantastic guest, a return guest, Martin Kupinger. 6 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:28,240 He's the principal analyst at Cooper Cole. 7 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:32,040 You may just know him as Martin. So that's how I know him. 8 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:34,560 Martin, welcome back to the show. 9 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:39,120 Yeah, Trim pleasure of being back here and thanks for 10 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:42,200 inviting me again. Absolutely. 11 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:45,960 And also, I guess it's welcome to 2026 for all of us. 12 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:50,880 We're just getting back from the holidays and getting ourselves 13 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:55,480 wrapped around, wrapped back into the identity space again 14 00:00:55,480 --> 00:01:00,560 and having to, you know, solve a lot of the same problems that we 15 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:05,400 were in 2025. I want to talk about a lot of 16 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:07,600 things. I guess I haven't seen you since 17 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:11,800 EIC in 2025. We're also looking forward to 18 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:16,240 being there again, Jeff, and I'll be there in 2026 in Berlin. 19 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:19,920 I'm sure preparations are underway from your perspective. 20 00:01:21,320 --> 00:01:25,120 They, they are so, so I'm not that much involved with the 21 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:28,120 agenda work. So, so my, my works will start a 22 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:30,440 little later on, mostly when, when it comes to. 23 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:35,280 So I did a lot of, gave a lot of input to the for the agenda. 24 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:40,720 But then when it, when we're getting closer to EIC, then the 25 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:46,720 one thing will be scheduling. So it's always a tough thing to, 26 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:48,880 to squeeze everyone in the tight schedule. 27 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:52,080 And the other thing will be preparing my own presentations 28 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:55,240 and talks. Well, I got to say it's, it's 29 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:59,040 just a fantastic time. Obviously if you're in Europe, 30 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:02,760 it's the number one conference covering the identity space. 31 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:06,000 If you're from outside of Europe, if you can make the 32 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:09,639 trip, I highly recommend it. We had a fantastic time this 33 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:11,760 past year. Looking forward to doing it 34 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:14,320 again this year. And by the way, we will have a 35 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:18,520 discount code on our website. I don't know if we have it out 36 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:21,800 there yet, but look for it within the next couple of weeks 37 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:24,320 if you're looking to register for the conference. 38 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:27,720 It'll save you some money. And we're going to talk about 39 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:29,840 EICA little bit later in the agenda. 40 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:35,840 But while I have Martin here, I want to pick his brain on a few 41 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:40,080 topics. And Martin, I, you know, Jeff 42 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:42,320 and I always say it's like, it wouldn't be identity at the 43 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:44,040 center if we didn't talk about AI. 44 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:47,200 And sometimes we joke around and call it AI at the center. 45 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:51,520 But it's, I mean, this went from, I'd say this time last 46 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:53,720 year where it was like, Oh yeah, that's something that's going to 47 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:57,600 happen in the future too. It's happening right now with 48 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:02,760 the AI agents and companies building them and identity 49 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:06,360 practitioners trying to figure out like, what is our framework? 50 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:11,280 What is our approach for managing AI identity? 51 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:15,160 Yeah. And, and as we also see that 52 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:20,760 there's a lot going on with AI, there's also, I think some, some 53 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:25,840 disillusion starting when, when, when organizations feel they, 54 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:31,560 they either don't have the, the results they that were promised 55 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:35,840 at the very beginning or that they feel some things can't be 56 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:39,480 done easily. So because we, we hear this, 57 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:42,600 especially in regulated industries that organizations 58 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:47,480 are, are shy of deploying solutions agents, for instance, 59 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:51,160 and, and within business processes because they feel they 60 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:55,360 don't have, have enough control and sufficient control about 61 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:57,040 these agents. And that means, yes, we have 62 00:03:57,240 --> 00:03:58,520 have an interesting challenge here. 63 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:05,040 I I would dare to say in, in all the yeah, 35 plus years. 64 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:06,960 I'm in the identity space right now. 65 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:15,000 This is the most, I would say intellectually challenging 66 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:19,680 evolution I've seen over all these years. 67 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:25,880 So it's an incredible amount of complexity and I think we need 68 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:32,960 to be very careful of on one, on the one hand, finding short term 69 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:37,280 solutions to to address challenges, but not believing 70 00:04:37,280 --> 00:04:41,280 that we have solved everything with the first whatever MCP 71 00:04:41,280 --> 00:04:47,440 server authorisation solutions, because this is trust a piece of 72 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:50,080 the puzzle. So that that will be very 73 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:53,640 interesting. How can we deliver quick 74 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:59,280 solutions that that help, but not sort of tapping in into the 75 00:04:59,280 --> 00:05:04,120 trap of thinking as oversimplifying the challenge? 76 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:08,960 Yeah, not oversimplifying the challenge, but I also feel like 77 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:15,200 we also have to make sure as practitioners that we are not 78 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:21,520 stopping the business progress. We have to from obviously from 79 00:05:21,840 --> 00:05:25,840 our, our main charter is securing the environment, but we 80 00:05:25,840 --> 00:05:29,760 also have to not be the progress prevention department. 81 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:33,880 Where, where security is a really good in, I think we've 82 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:39,600 proven that for decades that security is tends, tends to, to, 83 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:42,360 to hinder business in, in, in progressing. 84 00:05:42,840 --> 00:05:45,560 And I think that's exactly the balance we need to find. 85 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:50,000 So how can we at the end of the day, I think this AI sometimes 86 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:53,760 we're, as I've said, we businesses are in the situation 87 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:58,880 that they feel they, they lack a certain level of security and 88 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:03,720 control and governance to proceed in what they want to do 89 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:07,320 in the business. So, so this puts us in some 90 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:11,560 sense much more in an enabler role than ever before. 91 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:16,880 Because I think from what I hear is that a lot of businesses are, 92 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:24,320 are really, I would say, insecure about what they can do 93 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:26,960 and whatnot. And they feel a risk of losing 94 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:32,000 control potentially. So that means that the, the 95 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:36,760 businesses asking for a certain level of security and control, 96 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:42,160 usually it is that they, they don't ask much they feel hinders 97 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:44,560 them. In this case, it feels this is 98 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:47,400 what they need to, to, to be able to proceed in their 99 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:51,080 initiatives. And, and I think from that 100 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:55,480 perspective, it might be a better situation for security or 101 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:59,240 cybersecurity identity people than than in most cases before 102 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:03,440 where, where we were trust the the ones coming in and saying, 103 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:06,080 Oh, no, we can't do it that way. And we need to make it more 104 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:08,960 complex and slower and more expensive. 105 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:12,640 In this case, it's really made me say, OK, if you do that and 106 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:20,960 that and that you can at least sort of have a, a, a better, a 107 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:24,600 stronger risk control. And that that again goes back to 108 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:27,120 what I said before. I think we need to find a good 109 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:32,720 balance between solving certain of these challenges, the ones we 110 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:36,320 can solve now. But we, we, we, we must not 111 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:41,760 believe and and also not leave the impression that this is the 112 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:45,400 finite solution already. Because to solve everything, I 113 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:49,720 think there's so many pieces that will take us quite a while 114 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:52,240 and it will require quite a lot of innovation. 115 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:57,800 We probably will need new types of standards or or improvements 116 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:01,600 and product protocols and all that stuff to cover all the 117 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:05,880 challenges. Yeah, I think that's exactly the 118 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:09,080 way I was looking at. The problem too is that there's 119 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:13,760 so many use cases. I think of myself as kind of a a 120 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:19,720 productive employee and I want to build my own agents and what 121 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:23,720 identity do I use or allow those agents to run under? 122 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:28,400 Do I just give them access to run like me or run with my 123 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:31,320 credentials? Well, that's obviously a no, no. 124 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:35,520 There's also the use cases where you're building enterprise level 125 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:41,720 applications with AI. And I think the at least, I 126 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:45,040 think the point that you're making is like trying to solve 127 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:49,160 all these problems at one time. That's very difficult to do. 128 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:53,400 Yeah. But but it's I think the the 129 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:57,960 same challenge we have with with many other we had in many other 130 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:04,920 areas in the past. I think we need to sort of 131 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:10,120 deconstruct this, this problem domain to smaller pieces, figure 132 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:12,480 out solutions for the smaller pieces and then bring them 133 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:16,960 together. But every, every, every element 134 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:21,120 we, we, we address will help us in the overall security. 135 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:24,560 We also probably will have points on use, but we then need, 136 00:09:24,560 --> 00:09:28,560 for instance, an over sort of an end to end governance. 137 00:09:28,560 --> 00:09:32,160 So not only saying, OK, we have a bit of security year and year 138 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:34,640 and year. We need an over over all 139 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:37,840 governance across all the pieces, which then brings things 140 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:40,520 together or which helps us understanding anomalies across 141 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:44,160 the entire chain. And I think one of the big, so a 142 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:48,720 couple of things. One thing is I think it's not a 143 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:58,480 good idea to sink in the identities of AI agents is trust 144 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:01,680 a non human identity? I think so. 145 00:10:01,680 --> 00:10:04,360 I, I, I'm not a big believer in the term non human identity 146 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:09,200 because I think it's an umbrella term that's we covers a lot of 147 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:11,280 different things. So the, the real machine 148 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:16,520 identities for IIOT or OT the, the workload identities, which 149 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:21,200 some call machine identities. And then we have compared to 150 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:26,080 workload identities, agents have a way higher level of autonomy, 151 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:29,080 which means they are in many areas different. 152 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:34,760 What I think also comes into this, this or what adds to the 153 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:40,240 problem domain is we we are used in in saying there's a human or 154 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,680 maybe a workload accessing a system right now. 155 00:10:43,680 --> 00:10:55,280 We say, OK, there's a human or a non human that there's an agent 156 00:10:55,800 --> 00:11:01,520 that works on behalf that impersonates, that has been 157 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:05,760 delegated to do whatever. There are very different ways to 158 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:09,360 to, to between just the human and the agent. 159 00:11:09,560 --> 00:11:11,680 And that agent then can work with other agents. 160 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:15,880 There might be a chain of agents and then we have all the systems 161 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:21,600 that these agents try to access to, to to respond to the 162 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:24,960 requests. So it's, it's a, it's a much 163 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:29,120 more networked, much complex relationship challenge than we 164 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:32,280 had before, which also means, for instance, from an 165 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:34,920 authorization perspective, we have, we have a lot of different 166 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:38,600 points of authorization. So there is the agent to the MCP 167 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:43,640 server, but there's also the the relationship. 168 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:47,000 This is an interesting authorization field between the 169 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:52,640 human and the the agent. So that that is what where, 170 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:54,560 where I always say, OK, you know, there there might be the, 171 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:59,920 the situation that the agent can do more than the human will 172 00:11:59,920 --> 00:12:02,600 allow. So travel booking, the agent can 173 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:06,840 book you any, any travel, but maybe the corporate policy says 174 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:11,440 you're only allowed to go in hotels up to that price tag or 175 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:17,680 you're only allowed to, to fly, fly economy or whatever else. 176 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:21,600 But it could be also the other way around that you, and we've 177 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:25,560 seen these cases enough that someone asks, requests the 178 00:12:25,560 --> 00:12:30,120 agents to, to do things the agent is not entitled to do. 179 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:36,080 So, oh, give, give, give me the construction plan for a nuclear 180 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:40,600 bomb or things like that. So I, I think we have way more 181 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:46,920 complex relationships and authorization challenges and we, 182 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:51,080 we can clearly mitigate a certain part of the risk, for 183 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:54,680 instance by, by MCP server authorization handling it and 184 00:12:54,680 --> 00:12:58,480 probably, but it's just an element of the overall solution. 185 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:05,640 Yeah, the MCP server, just thinking about that, that in the 186 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:08,760 enterprise architecture perspective, there's an MCP 187 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:12,560 server and it's managed by IT, right? 188 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:17,400 But if I am a knowledge worker, to use a very old term, I'm a 189 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:21,640 knowledge worker and I'm building an AI agent to do 190 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:27,360 something and I want to connect to services that let's just say 191 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:29,320 I want to connect to work day, right? 192 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:32,160 And I have a work day account. I can get into work Day and I 193 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:38,640 can see certain screens and I just want to be able to take 194 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:42,360 information from those screens and pull them into a 195 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:44,480 spreadsheet, right? I'm trying to create a very 196 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:49,400 simple example, it seems to me, and I, I'm, I'm painting a very 197 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:54,440 specific use case here, but do I have to go back to the 198 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:58,200 enterprise and say, hey, I need the MCP server to connect to 199 00:13:58,200 --> 00:13:59,920 work Day so I can do these things? 200 00:13:59,920 --> 00:14:04,600 Or maybe Work Day is not a great example because most companies 201 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:07,880 are probably connecting their MTP server to work Day. 202 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:11,520 But maybe it's a a legacy business application. 203 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:15,520 But I teach the AI to do something to fetch my data so 204 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:17,120 that I don't have to do that myself. 205 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:20,520 I for day I come in and they populate some spreadsheet with 206 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:27,040 all the information I need. I feel like I want to give it my 207 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:31,440 credentials, but at the same time then it, you know, from a 208 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:34,240 security standpoint that looks like I'm the one who's doing the 209 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:37,040 clicking and all that. But actually it's the agent. 210 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:41,480 So we should have an agent identity to do that. 211 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,960 This is kind of a theory of my own, which is that there should 212 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:53,440 be some kind of self-service process to create a, an agent ID 213 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:57,120 for me to do that rather than having to go through, you know, 214 00:14:57,720 --> 00:14:59,720 having one issue to me, etcetera. 215 00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:03,960 What are your thoughts and what is the the industry direction in 216 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:07,240 terms of how to solve use cases like that where you have 217 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:11,360 knowledge workers, you want them to use AI to be more productive, 218 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:16,520 but then this security layer makes it almost impossible to do 219 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:18,440 it right. That's, that's a great tricky 220 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:24,040 question because I, as I said, I think that there did so many 221 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:31,200 different scenarios behind that. So I, I think that the point is, 222 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:39,760 is the knowledge worker using an existing agent, then, then it's 223 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:42,520 a very different thing than when, when we think about. 224 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:47,520 I really hate this democratising term in in IT, especially in 225 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:52,920 security if it's more that everyone can create own agents, 226 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:58,960 which I think raises some some other questions first, like like 227 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:03,640 how do we keep control about these when when someone does it 228 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:11,600 sort of decentralised and and not within a sort of a managed 229 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:16,320 environment. And I think, but especially for 230 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:20,920 these areas, I think it makes a ton of sense to have identity 231 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:24,080 and access and all the stuff as a service. 232 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:28,400 So I, I think the worst thing would be that that someone tells 233 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:32,440 the agents what the agent is allowed to do. 234 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:37,200 I think it's better than to consume it from from a from a 235 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:41,440 service that is sort of centrally managed and sets the 236 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:47,720 rights sort of limits and delivers the rights types of 237 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:51,840 policies and identities to to agents that are are built 238 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:54,440 decentrally. So I think the worst thing is, 239 00:16:54,480 --> 00:17:02,880 is having super user type of self constructed agents popping 240 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:05,400 up at scale and without any control. 241 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:12,880 Yeah, I see your point. And I guess I, I, I don't fear 242 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:15,599 that. In fact, I'm, I'm the, I could 243 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:19,480 come from the other perspective because I'm working on a project 244 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:24,359 inside of my company right now and it's a training project and 245 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:29,680 I want to pull data from various different places to populate and 246 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:33,800 to educate the ages. So I've got a kind of a scheme 247 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:36,160 in my mind and it's like I understand it. 248 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:38,920 I don't want to have to spin up the big project. 249 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:42,560 I want to do like proof of concept and etcetera. 250 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:47,200 So, but I, I think this whole topic maybe ties back to what 251 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:49,360 you're talking about with governance. 252 00:17:49,360 --> 00:17:54,040 So I've kind of feel like governance is all about setting 253 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:57,400 the guardrails. It, it's the, the paper and 254 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:02,400 pencil side to information security. 255 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:07,920 And it would behoove, I think organizations to maybe start 256 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:10,840 there where you have a governance committee or 257 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:15,240 governance body that overseas AI. 258 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:19,320 What are the use cases that are relevant to your organization 259 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:23,520 and what are the rules of the roads in terms of what people 260 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:28,440 are allowed to do and what information security protocols 261 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:30,480 apply? Is that where you're getting at 262 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:34,200 with with governance was kind of like the rules on the road and 263 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:38,520 the guardrails? You know, I think, I think maybe 264 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:42,600 to explain my, my perspective, I have a quite some legacy in the 265 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:48,680 Lotus Notes Domino field where where hundreds frequently 266 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:51,920 thousands of databases were constructed pretty much 267 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:55,200 decently. And still still for many 268 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:58,200 organizations still our challenge in migrating these. 269 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,320 So no one knows what why no one knows what they are they are 270 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:03,440 doing, which data is kept etcetera. 271 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:08,160 So I, I think and, and, and maybe another, another point to 272 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:11,560 bring in this, which may explain mass thinking. 273 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:20,880 We in, in many areas we have that situation that people, for 274 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:25,720 instance, developers just want to do to solve a problem and 275 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:27,800 security for them is not the first priority. 276 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:33,280 And it's interesting to see that that approaches like OPA or 277 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:35,240 them. Unfortunately, you're still 278 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:37,640 relatively decentralized Hashicorp walls and others 279 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:42,520 became very attractive because it removed some burden from from 280 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:45,800 the developers by saying, I just can't consume a service. 281 00:19:46,360 --> 00:19:49,600 And that means you have an option to bring these things 282 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:54,040 under control to at least ensure what is to understand what is 283 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:56,560 what is out there, how is it working? 284 00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:01,600 Where are your security risks and, and for instance, manage 285 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:03,520 the identities, bring things under control. 286 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:09,560 And I I think for when we create agents, then certain aspects 287 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:12,200 should be also always be considered as a service. 288 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:18,680 So it doesn't make sense that that decently everyone decides 289 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:23,320 about whatever the access the agent should have to data. 290 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:28,800 I think that that is usually the the one who who owns the data. 291 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:34,040 Should be the one who who decides about that access. 292 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:36,920 Because if you want to solve the problem, you may go out to and 293 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:40,480 and try to reach out to too many, too much data. 294 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:44,640 And that in some sense multiplies because it's in the 295 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:51,400 nature of the of generative AI to try to gain access to as much 296 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:54,640 data as it can. So, so I, I think in that sense, 297 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:58,160 it even multiplies with the sort of traditional over entitlement 298 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:02,800 challenges. And so, so I, I would say I, I 299 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:09,560 would prefer something which goes more into a delivering 300 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:15,880 identity, security, etcetera, as a service into that world of, of 301 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:21,200 ancient development and ensuring that that agents, for instance, 302 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:25,840 in some way maybe are registered with the organization, maybe 303 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:28,600 even even beyond the organization to always 304 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:32,200 understand which, which you can trust or not. 305 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:36,040 So I, I think there's a really good conversation where we talk 306 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:43,200 about identity for AI, in other words, for agents, we also have 307 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:45,800 the conversation of AI for identity. 308 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:50,320 And what we're starting to see is a proliferation of basically 309 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:55,320 almost every identity tool now has 50% more AI. 310 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:59,960 But there are actually some tools that are bringing AI to 311 00:21:59,960 --> 00:22:05,080 the forefront for identity. I think you're seeing it with 312 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:08,360 one of our sponsors that we had on the past, the Yamans. 313 00:22:08,360 --> 00:22:15,320 They have a a chat interface to administer your IGA system to be 314 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:19,560 an end user. We have a a recent sponsor on a 315 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:24,800 red block where they use AI to kind of do that last mile of 316 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:27,160 provisioning. So rather than opening a ticket, 317 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:31,560 you train the AI so that it can go out and automate that 318 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:36,320 provisioning stuff. What excites you when you look 319 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:41,360 at that this landscape of how AI is being baked into identity 320 00:22:41,360 --> 00:22:42,720 products? And one more comment that I'll 321 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:48,360 make is that I feel like a year ago it was like, oh, it can AI 322 00:22:48,360 --> 00:22:52,760 can make these suggestions about whether to approve access or how 323 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:56,040 much access a person could get. And I was never excited by that. 324 00:22:56,360 --> 00:22:59,520 But when I you know those two examples they just laid out like 325 00:22:59,960 --> 00:23:04,760 that shows me technology that just wasn't available in your 326 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:06,040 fast. Yeah. 327 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:12,480 So I think many of the early sort of AI for identity type of 328 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:17,040 solutions were not overly innovative. 329 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:23,320 So my, my favorite example was whatever Rd. proposals and stuff 330 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:25,360 like that. So everything around, I would 331 00:23:25,360 --> 00:23:28,520 say Rd. mining, hey, we did it with Excel 2 decades ago. 332 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,720 So that's what was going to really, really the, the thing 333 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:37,280 which, which which delivered an large added value. 334 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:41,000 So, so I think we start to see new things like, like, like all 335 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:45,280 the, the augmentation or building, building connectors, 336 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:53,480 which can be, can be massively simplified by, by AI, different 337 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:57,080 types of you access of, you know, So when I go back a couple 338 00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,560 of years, I think I'm still, for many organizations, it's still 339 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:03,160 one of these tells us that when the auditors ask for certain 340 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:07,120 information that it takes them a lot long and it takes a lot of 341 00:24:07,120 --> 00:24:09,320 work to compile all that information. 342 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:14,000 AI can do that much faster, put together data from different 343 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,280 sources, deliver the results, respond to, to certain 344 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:18,640 questions. And I think that that's 345 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:20,560 something where we see, see a benefit. 346 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:22,520 I think we also see a lot of things. 347 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,680 So I'm, I'm, for instance, not a big believer in all these bots 348 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:31,040 that then pop up. And so a bit like, like a lot of 349 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:32,800 the box. So you know, you're opening 350 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:39,000 whatever your, your, your user interface and then the, the, it 351 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:40,640 pops up and says, Hey, can I help you? 352 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:46,200 And you shut it down and then you click on the next link and 353 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:48,040 it comes back and says, Hey, can I help you? 354 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,240 Ideally placed very centrally so that you don't see what you 355 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,960 really are interested in. So I think we need to we are 356 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:57,240 just scratching different surface in many areas. 357 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:02,200 So I would envision that that AAI understands when I need 358 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:05,040 help. So what when I'm stuck when, 359 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:08,240 when the way I'm using a tool is changing because I'm obviously 360 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:12,840 searching for whatever menu, I'm obviously searching for 361 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:15,280 something. I am slower than I'm usually 362 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:20,120 then then AI may may understand, OK, this is Martin's stock. 363 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:24,000 This is he's stuck in that area. And then it might might start 364 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:28,640 delivering me valuable hints in the context of what I'm 365 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:32,120 currently doing. Sounds a little bit weird and 366 00:25:32,120 --> 00:25:36,320 and a bit of has too much supervision. 367 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:41,360 But you know, when, when, when I look at the, the my, my car, 368 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:48,480 that that car can would probably, I never tested it, at 369 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:52,640 least it, it's ass. It would do an immerge stop if I 370 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:58,920 fall, if, if I fall, fall to sleep and don't sort of don't 371 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:01,880 react. So, so that car is constantly 372 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,720 watching me. So we, we have it in, in our 373 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:07,440 everyday life. Why should we do it in software? 374 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,200 And it's probably beyond, beyond identity, but it also relates 375 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:14,880 to, to the sort of the UX improvements we see overall. 376 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:17,760 I think we see some, some really interesting stuff here, which 377 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:21,440 which is helpful. As I've said, application 378 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:25,800 onboarding, one of these huge challenges we, we are seeing 379 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,560 that's where AI can be super, super helpful. 380 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:35,160 I think also AI can help us a lot in, you know, one of the 381 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,840 things I've said to a couple of vendors when they came up with 382 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:41,160 their first, oh, we have this AI thing and it helps you 383 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,400 understanding which entitlements you have and where you're 384 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,360 whatever over entitlements are, etcetera. 385 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:51,080 And I said, you know, AIAI lives from data. 386 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:56,000 So why, why don't you look at all the usage data and use it 387 00:26:56,000 --> 00:27:00,200 for instance, to tell me which 90% of the entitlements the 388 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:05,600 users have are never used. That would be a real benefit 389 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:12,320 because then you can reduce the the the number of of or can 390 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:16,560 passively you reduce your level of over entitlements very 391 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:19,240 quickly. That would be a huge benefit 392 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:22,720 from a, from a security and governance perspective and maybe 393 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:28,240 even understand when someone will need certain entitlements 394 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:34,840 that could be more sort of time or sort of based on other 395 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:39,720 triggers like whatever the finance department needs certain 396 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:44,480 specific entitlements during the around the end of the fiscal 397 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:48,960 year because they do certain things they only do once a year. 398 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:54,360 Same holds true when you're in factory and for, for, for the 399 00:27:54,360 --> 00:27:58,000 machines, the, the suppliers come in and do all the software 400 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:00,520 updates etcetera. During the, the whatever two or 401 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:04,120 three-week summer break. Then you have a defined period 402 00:28:04,120 --> 00:28:08,520 where things happen or maintenance periods in, in, in 403 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:10,680 a, in a, in a data centre, all that stuff. 404 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:15,480 They are well defined. But it also could be that again, 405 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:20,520 clearly a bit scary, but maybe AI understands what will be the 406 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,400 next thing you will do because you did it always the same way. 407 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,520 It's, it's a bit, a bit again, going back to my car. 408 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:34,360 My car predicts what would be probably my, my next target for. 409 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:39,040 So for the, for the GPS, it predicts, OK, you're probably 410 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:42,600 will go there next because it knows where I'm driving. 411 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:47,560 So I whatever at certain times in the week I attempt to, to 412 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:51,560 pick up my daughter or bring her back to her to her flat. 413 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,440 And that it knows, OK, most likely Martin will drive there. 414 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:57,840 And when he's there, he most likely will drive back to his 415 00:28:57,840 --> 00:28:59,840 home. So the same we can do in IT. 416 00:28:59,960 --> 00:29:03,080 Also, we have probably way, way more indicators because we have 417 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:06,200 our outlook or other calendar and all that information we 418 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,960 could use. And then we could provide access 419 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:13,640 just in time. We, we just do it sort of the, 420 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:21,160 the millisecond ahead of of when it's needed and we remove it 421 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:25,760 when the action is done. That could be a playing field 422 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:29,840 for AI. Yeah, I agree. 423 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:35,200 That's where AI where you give tremendous value, it's because I 424 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:41,720 think the zero standing privileges seems unachievable 425 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,280 without something like AI that can scale. 426 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:51,160 I think for me, where AI really revolutionizes identities when 427 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,000 they can make decisions for people. 428 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:58,880 So we've spent the last 10 years complaining about access reviews 429 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,920 and we give the people too much to review it. 430 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,720 And then it's like, how do we get away from rubber stamping? 431 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,160 And and a lot of it was like, OK, let's just send them the 432 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:12,000 priority stuff. So that delegated out, let's do 433 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:14,120 all these things, but. But I have this. 434 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:18,040 Letting AI decide AAI, we don't have a good idea. 435 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:22,360 We don't need AI for getting rid of accessory recertifications. 436 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:26,960 We, we can do it much simpler. You know, the, the easiest way 437 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,720 is that we, we trust say, OK, you have time limited access. 438 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:35,520 So if you're in the well for recertification, 6 is 6 months 439 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:40,200 only give access for up to six months and you're done with 440 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,760 their own little recertification stuff. 441 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:49,040 You probably will give give much less entitlement. 442 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:52,720 So a lot of things would be solved, but that's, that's again 443 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:58,080 a different theme. So, so I say, but but yes, AI 444 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:00,560 can help us to, to fix some of the problems. 445 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,880 But we also should be like like this recertification, we also 446 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:11,240 should be careful of do we cure the symptoms or do we address 447 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:14,720 the cause. And you know for roles for 448 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,600 recertification etcetera, cure the symptoms might be helpful. 449 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:22,560 But I think the industry would be also well advised to look at 450 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:27,040 what is the cause of the problem and how do we really address it 451 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:32,400 at that level. Yeah, and I use the example of 452 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:34,640 recertification. The other example I was going to 453 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:39,520 use was authentications, you know, having AI play a greater 454 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:44,280 role in identifying the person on the way and making the 455 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:48,360 decision that it is the person or it's not the person. 456 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:54,320 I think ultimately it needs to trace back that if needed, you 457 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:58,160 can see what the decision was based on what were the what was 458 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:02,920 the basis for alliance, you know, approving someone to have 459 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:06,880 access or giving or authenticating an account, an 460 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:11,600 account or making that access review decision if it's say a 461 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:16,320 compliance driven process and you just can't get around doing 462 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,640 it for now. But I do think AI is going to 463 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:25,720 have to provide the paper trail. But you know, overall as I think 464 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:31,560 about AI for identity, I think it's going to continue to be 465 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:33,920 important. I think it's like you mentioned 466 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:37,560 kind of within that framework of non human identities. 467 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:43,000 There's this whole space now of software solutions focusing on 468 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:47,680 non human. There is, it's just a number of 469 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:52,840 spaces or what should I call it, like sub sectors within identity 470 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:57,200 that keeps popping up. And it's like new acronyms like 471 00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:02,640 IVIP, which is I'm not discounting the importance or 472 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:06,280 how cool these different technologies are, but as a 473 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:09,800 practitioner, like how am I supposed to keep track of all 474 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:13,680 this? IVIP, non human identity, Kim, 475 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:21,800 ISPMITDR, you name it. How do we as practitioners 476 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:27,680 identify which of these is going to be ones that we need to pay 477 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:29,760 attention to that we need to invest in? 478 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:34,880 Or what are the ones that we should wait a little bit because 479 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:38,960 we, we still have the disciplines like IGA access 480 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,200 management or privilege access management. 481 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,440 But eventually organizations get to the point where it's like, 482 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,440 OK, we're, we're, we're solid with those things. 483 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,800 We, we've gotten them too much to the point where it's like, 484 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:55,560 yes, we do enhancements. Yes, we do add, change, remove 485 00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:58,360 as needed, but we're ready to take that next level. 486 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:04,960 And you know, how do, where do people invest? 487 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:06,960 What is the? Yeah, What's your framework? 488 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:09,400 Yeah. So, so, so the framework we are 489 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,960 propagating for for many years is the identity fabric. 490 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:18,560 I think we came up with this some 7-8 years ago at least. 491 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:22,480 And and it's increasingly popular also right now used by a 492 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,120 lot of auto parties, a lot of vendors, some other analyst 493 00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:28,400 firms, etcetera. And I think the identity fabric 494 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:33,639 is very helpful for, for that, because with the identity fabric 495 00:34:33,639 --> 00:34:37,159 approach, you, you can think about, you have a sort of a 496 00:34:37,159 --> 00:34:40,760 capability based approach. So you don't start with the 497 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,199 tool, you start with the capability. 498 00:34:43,199 --> 00:34:46,840 So which are the capabilities you you need for certain use 499 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:50,639 cases? And then you can look at sort of 500 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:53,000 do I do you already have these capabilities? 501 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,480 You can prioritise capabilities and then you can think about 502 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:02,480 which are the services where I put together certain 503 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:06,600 capabilities and then you can think about the tools that 504 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:08,840 factually delivered that service. 505 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:13,360 And I think we we need to be very careful with this. 506 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:16,040 We have a problem, we need a tool. 507 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:20,080 It doesn't make that much sense. I think what we should do is 508 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:25,440 think about what are the capabilities that will be added 509 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:31,440 by sort of new technologies that already helps us to understand. 510 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,440 I would say for with a little bit of of good human sense, 511 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:42,400 whether this is a something which is likely to exist as a 512 00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:48,440 separate tool category over the next years and maybe decades, or 513 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:52,440 whether it's something which most likely will converge into 514 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:56,800 other categories, always other evolutions. 515 00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:00,880 So, so I take Keem and, and what we call nowadays non human 516 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:04,960 identity management. A lot of those Keem in some 517 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:09,800 sense is non human access and the other is non human identity. 518 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,960 And I think there's a logic that things like that converge to to 519 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:16,080 an extent see how some convergence to to Pam and other 520 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:19,080 things. I think for I whip, honestly, I 521 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:24,800 whip for me is, is, is a bit of a added capability to access 522 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:29,440 governance and, and I think the first question is you should ask 523 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:35,240 yourself that goes beyond the capabilities is why do I need 524 00:36:35,240 --> 00:36:37,920 it? So, so you may say I need it, 525 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,600 but the question why is much more interesting when we look at 526 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:43,760 iweb because you don't have sufficient insight into your 527 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:48,640 into your entitlements. In a perfect world of access 528 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:52,000 governance and IGA, you would have that information. 529 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:57,000 So it probably also means that you have challenges in your IGA 530 00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:02,600 program and you need to think about, do I need Iowa 531 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:07,080 temporarily to overcome some of these things to be able to to 532 00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:11,640 have some insights? Or is it that that maybe this is 533 00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:14,960 sort of my next evolutionary step where I wait for my IGA 534 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:18,520 vendor to edit because there are some edit functions I have. 535 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:22,160 Or is it that I better go back to my IGA program and think how 536 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:27,760 I fixed the cost to to really have all the publications on on 537 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,120 board, etcetera. So what can I do here? 538 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:34,440 Because I would be at the end of the day, sort of deliver 539 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:38,680 something you should have with a, it's a good IGA program. 540 00:37:39,240 --> 00:37:43,040 A lot of what I've promises to deliver should be there already. 541 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,720 And so I think the capability based approach helps you. 542 00:37:46,720 --> 00:37:49,640 And then you also, if you take this broader perspective, as in 543 00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:52,480 the fabric, you also have, have a better understanding of these 544 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:57,440 are the different bits and pieces that that may be lacking. 545 00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:00,800 And you can prioritize it because no organization can 546 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:05,800 handle to, to, to do all these projects in peril to add more 547 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,640 and more tools. And I don't want identity to, to 548 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,680 end up in the state of today's cybersecurity where most 549 00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:15,280 organisations have far too many cybersecurity tools and still 550 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:19,920 far too many gaps. So without a, a concept behind, 551 00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:23,760 we will end up in a similar scenario. 552 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:28,440 And and then also, I think it makes a lot of sense to to be to 553 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:31,800 look at one of one of this is marketing or analyst type. 554 00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:36,320 Oh, clearly it's cool for an analyst to bring up a new 555 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:41,720 category of tools that the analyst hasn't wended, but is it 556 00:38:41,720 --> 00:38:45,000 really helpful to the end users? Probably not. 557 00:38:46,240 --> 00:38:49,080 But you've bundled something there about having too many 558 00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:53,840 cyber security tools. And let me just speak from my 559 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:58,400 experience. So I've been in IT identity for 560 00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:02,320 over 20 years, 20 / 25 years. I don't want to date myself too 561 00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:06,040 much, but all in the United States. 562 00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:09,720 And so I remember working on projects called vendor 563 00:39:09,720 --> 00:39:12,840 rationalization, right. So you, you take all the IT 564 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:15,560 products that you're using across the enterprise and you 565 00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:20,760 look for, hey, we have 7 customer relationship management 566 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:25,440 systems and we only need one. So let's just pick one. 567 00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:28,480 And even these others might be better in something. 568 00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:33,040 We're just going, if this one does something, we're just going 569 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:36,160 to do that. So that's, I feel like that's 570 00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:41,880 AUS approach, which is minimizing vendors or one throat 571 00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:45,280 to choke or however you want to term term it. 572 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:49,400 Whereas what you've been talking about is identity fabric, which 573 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,880 I love that concept. I love the idea that you can 574 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:58,080 take some kind of technology that is maybe more innovative, 575 00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:00,960 bring it into the environment, it becomes part of the 576 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:05,640 environment and you can connect it into the central services, 577 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:09,400 potentially leveraging it. Yeah, but it's not. 578 00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,880 Contributory dancing or is that? No, I think, I don't think so. 579 00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:17,680 I, I think, I also don't think that it's contradictory to when 580 00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:20,520 rationalist rationalization, because when you look at the 581 00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:24,680 capabilities and, and you map, map it down to the tools you may 582 00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:29,040 already have in place. So that the first thing is you, 583 00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:33,560 you may, when you, when you look for a capability and say, OK, 584 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:36,200 there's something new. You, you, you may understand 585 00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:38,760 this February concept. This capability is already 586 00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:42,760 available in some form. It might be not the perfect 587 00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:44,240 implementation, but you may have it. 588 00:40:44,240 --> 00:40:47,120 And then you already have something where you say, OK, 589 00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:50,880 then I can use that capability. The other thing is if you feel 590 00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:54,080 and start analysing it, you see that that same capability is 591 00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:58,840 delivered by multiple solutions. Then you can use exactly this 592 00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:02,960 approach to start your rationalization and think about 593 00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:05,320 does it make sense to to reduce it. 594 00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:08,320 I think this is always a balance that sometimes the the cost of 595 00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,920 rationalization is higher than the benefit of rationalization. 596 00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:15,120 Again, something to to think about carefully, but it also 597 00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:18,120 helps you to understand where, where, where is the potential 598 00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:21,040 for rationalization. When you look at your existing 599 00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:23,040 infrastructure, What do you already have? 600 00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:27,480 Which capabilities do you have? Can I not use these same 601 00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:32,120 capabilities for the other use case, be it from the same 602 00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:35,040 instance or a different instance of the same tool? 603 00:41:35,720 --> 00:41:39,120 But the fabric, I think fits very well to that because it 604 00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:43,080 needs are it gives you the flexibility that the part is. 605 00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:46,400 I think that the main thing is really this understanding of, I 606 00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:50,120 take a broader perspective and this is nothing which takes you 607 00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:52,880 months or years. You can't do this very, very 608 00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:56,080 fast. And then you can understand what 609 00:41:56,080 --> 00:42:02,080 is, where's my redundancy, redundancy or where are my 610 00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:04,880 redundancies? Where are my gaps? 611 00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:07,720 Are these gaps of relevance or not? 612 00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:11,040 You know, you don't need everything in that in identity 613 00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:15,040 management, you and, and the other element is this what we 614 00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:17,800 frequently commonly uses our reference architecture, which 615 00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:21,720 lists the different building blocks and bringing these things 616 00:42:21,720 --> 00:42:25,240 together helps you to understand, OK, this, this is 617 00:42:25,720 --> 00:42:28,000 these are all the elements that you made and end up saying, OK, 618 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:29,880 I have all the elements in in there. 619 00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:32,680 So if you have a consumer identity management if and an 620 00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:36,520 employee or workforce identity management, you basically have 621 00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:41,000 all elements for partner identity management already 622 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:43,120 available. So you can ask yourself the 623 00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:45,400 question, does it make sense to add another solution? 624 00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:48,520 Is it maybe even that that my access management piece can 625 00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:51,280 serve those customers and employees? 626 00:42:51,720 --> 00:42:56,280 But the the B to B part always would be sometimes closer to the 627 00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:59,560 consumer, sometimes closer to the to the workforce, but you 628 00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:03,240 would have everything as a capability already there. 629 00:43:03,240 --> 00:43:06,360 And then you can think about, does it make sense? 630 00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:11,240 Is there a benefit in adding another tool if you have certain 631 00:43:11,240 --> 00:43:15,720 elements of visibility, Is there a benefit of adding another 632 00:43:15,720 --> 00:43:19,160 tool? Or is it maybe even that you 633 00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:22,440 say, I can't rationalize because I have already too many 634 00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:25,520 overlaps. And the, the point, the identity 635 00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:28,920 fabric really the, the, the starting point was especially 636 00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:34,360 exactly in these these days where beyond workforce identity, 637 00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:37,720 we saw consumer identity emerging and then we saw the B2B 638 00:43:37,720 --> 00:43:40,800 stuff. And my thinking was, hey, it 639 00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:45,280 doesn't make sense to have a ton of identity silos over time. 640 00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:49,200 And this is exactly this rationalisation thing which was 641 00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:51,960 therefore I would say from the very beginning in the thinking 642 00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:54,440 of the of the identity fabric all. 643 00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:59,000 Right. I, I think with the, the fabric 644 00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:03,320 too, you can have the coexistence of multiple 645 00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:07,360 generations of technology and not feel like, hey, every time 646 00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:11,360 you want to add some new capabilities like ripping off 647 00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:17,160 the Band-Aid and starting with a full migration project, that was 648 00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:20,560 always one of the benefits that I saw in the fabric. 649 00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:25,120 I just wanted to ask you like on those spaces that we talked 650 00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:28,800 about, are there any of that you feel like people need to be 651 00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:33,680 playing really close attention to like IVIP, which is identity 652 00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:36,520 visibility and Pelagist platforms? 653 00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:42,200 So we had a sponsor on recently Nexus, who's in that space 654 00:44:43,240 --> 00:44:48,480 ITDRISPM. We have we've had Silver Ford in 655 00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:51,520 the on the past. There's feel like compelling 656 00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:55,120 solutions. Are there any that kind of jump 657 00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:56,960 off? And I'm not talking about like 658 00:44:56,960 --> 00:45:01,440 vendors, but are any of these spaces ones that you feel like 659 00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:05,360 organizations ought to be taking a close look at now? 660 00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:10,120 Yeah, I think that the most important area clearly is 661 00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:16,080 everything around is workloaded entities and AI identity or a 662 00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:19,680 identity as I then to call it. So this is the section of AI and 663 00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:23,520 identity. I think this is this is the the 664 00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:27,560 the most relevant field of all of these. 665 00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:31,560 And that that automatically brings in a certain level of 666 00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:35,480 ITDR for instance. So you can handle that the, this 667 00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:40,320 huge amount of of sort of new, new or naturally new identity 668 00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:45,400 types without a certain degree of automation and detection 669 00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:48,280 response. So, so you need these 670 00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:53,280 capabilities there. But I, I think from, from, from 671 00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:56,640 the risk and, and complexity perspective, I probably would, 672 00:45:56,920 --> 00:46:01,400 would put my focus on these. And I, I would say, you know, 673 00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:05,000 when you look at the EDI we've enters, most of them are in a, 674 00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:08,400 in a sense or many of them have a have their roots in the access 675 00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:11,080 governance space. So it's an innovation, I would 676 00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:15,680 say, plus a new password mainly in an existing space where it's 677 00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:18,440 about continuous improvement. And yes, there might be a need 678 00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:22,360 for these capabilities. The same I think holds true for 679 00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:25,520 ITDR also with the relationship clearly to XDR. 680 00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:31,240 The, the, the biggest really new challenge, untackled challenge 681 00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:34,920 in that sense clearly from my perspective is workload 682 00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:40,400 identities and JDKI identities. And if you have anything in 683 00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:45,160 hardware that has identities like industrial, IoT and 684 00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:49,320 traditional OT, this is also a huge field where things can go 685 00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:51,800 horribly wrong. So you should you should put 686 00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:55,080 your focus on that. Yeah, for sure. 687 00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:59,920 So all these topics that we talked about today are ones that 688 00:46:59,920 --> 00:47:03,720 are going to get a lot of attention at the EIC, which is 689 00:47:03,720 --> 00:47:06,400 coming up in May in Berlin, Germany. 690 00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:08,520 I'll be there. Jeff will be there. 691 00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:12,680 Martin, tell us a little bit about what to expect. 692 00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:16,160 Is there going to be anything different in this year's EIC 693 00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:21,920 than in years past? So, so I think EIC the, the, 694 00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:25,000 the, the concepts will remain the same. 695 00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:29,240 So we have a lot of tracks, keynotes on the first afternoon, 696 00:47:29,240 --> 00:47:32,400 workshops on the 1st morning, the morning keynotes, evening 697 00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:37,960 keynotes, a lot of interaction. I think a lot of conversations 698 00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:41,640 as usual on the floor where people meet and discuss and 699 00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:45,920 exchange. And we also will have what I 700 00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:49,840 know again, our food trucks outside and so for the breaks, 701 00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:54,320 all that stuff. Topic wise, I think we've 702 00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:58,200 touched several of these topics. A identity will be very 703 00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:02,720 important. Regular identities will be very 704 00:48:02,720 --> 00:48:06,760 important. I think also other, other 705 00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:09,760 evolutions will be important. The identity fabric will play an 706 00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:12,840 important role. We will again look at the 707 00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:15,960 decentralized identity stuff where a lot of things are going 708 00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:18,480 on. So the EUDI wallet is sort of 709 00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:21,200 coming closer. We have the Apple Wallet and the 710 00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:25,200 Apple ID stuff and and other initiatives and, and it's 711 00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:28,080 clearly about and also understanding how does display 712 00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:31,520 into does display into the broader identity field. 713 00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:34,840 We will look at some some of the other kind of more consumer 714 00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:37,480 identity related topics like like content. 715 00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:41,480 So we are preparing, I believe, a very, very interesting keynote 716 00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:46,080 section around that with some, some really, really smart people 717 00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:49,680 discussing about what could be the future of concert because no 718 00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:52,360 one likes the cookie concert stuff. 719 00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:55,680 So it's, it's really annoying. So we need to figure out better 720 00:48:55,680 --> 00:49:01,000 ways to do that. And, and so, so I think that 721 00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:03,080 will be also be a scene. Might we probably also have a 722 00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:06,760 look because in this EIC term, there's also this cloud element. 723 00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:10,400 I think the, the sovereign cloud discussion clearly is something 724 00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:13,480 which is important especially for European conference. 725 00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:17,640 But when you look at trust, I think today's announcement of 726 00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:21,640 AWS for sovereign clouds where they will spend billions again, 727 00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:25,080 it means it's relevant for everyone. 728 00:49:25,720 --> 00:49:31,240 And so, so we will see I think have a very broad set of themes 729 00:49:31,240 --> 00:49:37,520 again, we will discuss we, we will be again fully hybrid. 730 00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:42,920 So sessions will be available on site app, but also you can join 731 00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:47,280 virtually, which I think a lot of people really, really 732 00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:50,240 appreciate sometimes because they would ever have to break 733 00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:53,640 to, to do a call sometimes in the morning at the hotel and 734 00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:57,160 then watch some sessions remotely while they then move to 735 00:49:57,160 --> 00:50:00,040 the when you later on. All that stuff will be the same 736 00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:04,440 food hopefully also will be as good as at all the other 737 00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:10,080 conferences we we were running. Hopefully the weather is good. 738 00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:16,960 I mean, so my experience from attending last year was the 739 00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:20,880 keynotes were fantastic. I mean your keynote, I'm not 740 00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:24,120 just saying that because you're here, but your keynote was 741 00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:26,040 really good on their dandy fabric. 742 00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:32,880 It really got me, I think again as like I think I have kind of a 743 00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:36,600 American centric view sometimes, right? 744 00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:40,520 And you know, maybe with the way we talked about it today, I'm, 745 00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:44,440 I'm softening on that and I feel like maybe it's not so much an 746 00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:51,200 American centric view in terms of product or, you know, picking 747 00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:57,200 a, picking a solution versus being comfortable with multiple 748 00:50:57,200 --> 00:51:00,280 solutions in the enterprise. So the vendor rationalization 749 00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:05,080 piece, regardless the the I, I felt like that really got the 750 00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:07,600 wheels turning. A lot of the sessions as well. 751 00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:12,520 You had a lot of people from the ID Pro community come from the 752 00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:17,200 United States as well as from within Europe attending. 753 00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:22,320 There was an identity beer in Berlin that kicked it off. 754 00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:26,040 I'm going to be in Italy the following week and we're going 755 00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:31,520 to set up an identity beer. Andrea Rossi and Marco are going 756 00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:35,680 to, you know, work with me or I'm going to probably do the 757 00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:39,360 very minimal versus them and getting that identity or set up 758 00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:40,840 in Rome. It'll be the first one. 759 00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:45,840 So look for that on on LinkedIn. If we're not connected on 760 00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:49,040 LinkedIn, please let's connect. And I'm sure Martin's the same 761 00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:54,240 way, but also the the after hours events and things like 762 00:51:54,240 --> 00:51:57,240 that. It's just one of the one of my 763 00:51:57,240 --> 00:51:59,160 favorite conferences of all time. 764 00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:02,920 Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. 765 00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:07,440 And I also want to give a shout out to Marina from your team. 766 00:52:07,720 --> 00:52:11,600 She was working on the back end, making sure that we get podcasts 767 00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:15,560 and we had a good set up and we had discount code, which is very 768 00:52:15,560 --> 00:52:19,480 important to our listeners. So definitely shout out to 769 00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:24,160 Marina doing a great job and look forward to working on this 770 00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:27,640 year's event with her. OK, yeah. 771 00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:30,000 Looking forward to meet you again in Berlin and me. 772 00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:34,920 Absolutely and really appreciate you taking the time. 773 00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:36,720 Thank you for doing this, Martin. 774 00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:42,760 Any final words for for our audience before we depart? 775 00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:47,360 You know, I think that the most important thing I believe is we, 776 00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:51,080 we should as an industry, and I think in many organizations 777 00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:55,280 sometimes just take a little time step back and think about 778 00:52:55,280 --> 00:53:00,840 are we curing symptoms or are we fixing the cause? 779 00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:04,240 And I think that that would be really helpful. 780 00:53:04,240 --> 00:53:08,400 So is this something we just do as an interim solution or is 781 00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:13,920 this really the, the, the, the sort of the longer term 782 00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:18,840 solution? And, and also also always think 783 00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:21,200 about do we need this added capabilities? 784 00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:24,240 What is the first thing we need? Where do we spend our time and 785 00:53:24,240 --> 00:53:29,680 resources? And yeah, being a bit conscious 786 00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:34,760 about so so not blindly follow every new bathroom. 787 00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:39,080 I think that helps a lot. Good advice. 788 00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:41,680 Thank you, Martin. I'm going to wrap up the show 789 00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:46,320 everyone, so you can find us on the web at idcpodcast.com. 790 00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:49,200 There's the listen function. If you go into listen function, 791 00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:51,560 you can search all of our past episodes. 792 00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:55,480 So if there's a topic that you're interested in or a 793 00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:59,040 particular person within the industry that may or may not 794 00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:01,880 have been on the show, you search for their name, you 795 00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:05,000 search for Martin, you're going to find a lot of episodes. 796 00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:07,160 He's been on the show quite a number of times. 797 00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:12,560 We certainly appreciate that. We're also on YouTube, so you 798 00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:17,640 can go to idacpodcast.tv, takes you right to our YouTube page. 799 00:54:17,840 --> 00:54:21,840 And of course, we're on every podcasting platform. 800 00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:26,400 So if you're on Apple Podcast or Spotify, I think we're getting 801 00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:28,240 to the point where you type that identity. 802 00:54:28,240 --> 00:54:31,720 We're going to be the first or the second option, but it 803 00:54:32,080 --> 00:54:34,680 obviously if you search for identity at the center, you're 804 00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:37,320 going to find us. If you have a moment and you 805 00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:40,200 feel like we've earned it, please give us a five star 806 00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:43,360 rating and leave a review for the show if you've got the time. 807 00:54:43,720 --> 00:54:48,560 We always appreciate those, and Jeff and I and Martin are all on 808 00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:50,800 LinkedIn. We'd love to hear from you. 809 00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:53,920 Any comments you have about anything that was discussed 810 00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:57,520 today, Please, you know, good, bad, or indifferent, send them 811 00:54:57,520 --> 00:55:01,560 our way. Again, thank you, everyone, and 812 00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:06,560 we'll see you on the next one. You've been listening to 813 00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:10,520 Identity at the Center. We hope you've enjoyed the show. 814 00:55:10,720 --> 00:55:14,800 Make sure to like, rate and review, and we'll be back soon. 815 00:55:15,080 --> 00:55:17,360 But in the meantime, hit the website at 816 00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:23,720 identity@thecenter.com. See you next time on Identity at 817 00:55:23,720 --> 00:55:24,600 the Center.