1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,960 Eventually though, you cannot have a strategy of heroism. 2 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:07,040 It's just security strategy that is not sustainable. 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:09,320 It might work in short bursts and it might be something that's 4 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:12,880 needed in the short term. But I would, I would definitely 5 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:15,560 start to think about, are your business processes secure? 6 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:17,880 Do you have a way to look at the data? 7 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:20,680 You know, how are you making sure that you're trying to 8 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:22,080 reduce the risk as most possible? 9 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:24,920 At some point, you know, someone's going to have to make 10 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:27,320 a decision. Hey, it's time to spend a little 11 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:29,920 money and catch up here or augment or whatever it may be. 12 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:33,560 What tends up happening a lot of times I see is you get so far 13 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:35,920 behind that you have to spend a lot of money to catch up. 14 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:40,360 And it becomes like this ginormous task to to just get to 15 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:42,880 where good is or maybe even adequate. 16 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:46,120 And then, you know, we, I, I talk about peaks and valleys 17 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:48,880 from a budget perspective, you spend a whole lot of money 18 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:51,640 catching up and then you don't keep up with it. 19 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:55,680 And then guess what, in three to five years, maybe a little bit 20 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:58,040 longer if you're lucky, you're spending a whole bunch more 21 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:00,000 money again to try and catch up. Good. 22 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:03,640 If you could just figure out how to make that a slow and steady, 23 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:06,200 you know, probably increase just because prices get more 24 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,560 expensive over time, I think you'll have a better approach, 25 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:12,000 But it takes a lot of financial discipline to do that. 26 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:16,000 And not if your organization is in that mode of, Hey, this is 27 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:18,200 going to be a sustained investment identity is forever. 28 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:22,400 And so I think you need to think about identity as a long term 29 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:31,720 commitment for the organization. This is identity at the center 30 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:35,520 if it has anything to do with IAM. 31 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:42,080 This is the go to podcast now your hosts Jim McDonald and Jeff 32 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:49,840 Stedman. Welcome to the Identity of the 33 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:51,400 Center podcast. I'm Jeff, and that's Jim. 34 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:53,480 Hey, Jim. Hey, Jeff, how are you? 35 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:56,600 Not so bad yourself. I'm doing good. 36 00:01:56,720 --> 00:02:01,760 Hey and all transparency today is Ash Wednesday holiday and I 37 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:03,480 saw something I've never seen before. 38 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:10,960 So I'm in Phoenix, AZ in the United States and was driving up 39 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:16,640 to a corner in my Uber and they had drive up Ash Wednesday where 40 00:02:16,640 --> 00:02:18,400 they put the ash on people's foreheads. 41 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:21,960 But you didn't even have to like go to church and park and do all 42 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:24,840 the other inconvenient steps. You could just like pull up. 43 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,520 They do the blessing, give you the ashes and on your way you 44 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:32,280 go. I didn't do it, but I think it's 45 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:35,280 very convenient for people. You know, they have a drive up 46 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:39,400 wedding Chapel in Vegas. I mean, how convenient is that? 47 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:41,360 Well. Apparently there's a drive up 48 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:45,480 for everything so I think so. I guess that's what it is and 49 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:47,200 more transparency. You're not in your normal 50 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:48,560 location. Where are you? 51 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:52,520 I'm sorry, I'm in a hotel lobby because my room was not ready. 52 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:57,400 So we decided to record at 4:00. My room's supposed to be ready 53 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:01,200 at 4:00 and 4:00 came and no room was available. 54 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:03,560 The joys of business travel, right? 55 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:10,560 Yeah, I mean, basically we spent all day in like in a tube, not 56 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:13,120 at 40,000 feet the whole time. A lot of it was like ground 57 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:15,320 level, just sitting there waiting for the take off. 58 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:16,840 That's the worst thing. We just get all. 59 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:18,720 The time off. Can't go anywhere. 60 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:20,440 You're just kind of like, all right, let's get this thing 61 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:23,400 done. I know, I know when I first got 62 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:28,320 out of college, like my dream was to travel for work and it 63 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:32,280 was a blast for the beginning. And then it's like, you know, 64 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:36,520 when you're sitting there and it's like 10:30 at night and you 65 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:40,480 just want to get home and get in your comfy clothes and get in 66 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:43,640 bed and you're like sitting and you know, you've got like a 2 67 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:46,080 hour flight ahead of you, but you just been sitting there for 68 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:49,440 hours on end. Takes a little fun out of it do. 69 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:51,880 You have the Flighty app your iPhone. 70 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:53,800 I'm guessing how? What is that? 71 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:56,560 It's it's basically like a little app that will track like 72 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:59,120 your flights for you and kind of, you know, tell you if delays 73 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:00,880 and stuff like that. And I'm a fan of it. 74 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:04,000 I've had it for a few years now, but it tracks every single 75 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:08,520 flight And so you can track like how many you've taken, you know, 76 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:12,800 I'm looking right now, hours lost from delays like your has 77 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:15,840 your passport, how many flights where you've gone miles and 78 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:20,079 stuff like that. 2024 we'll just go over this. 79 00:04:20,079 --> 00:04:26,880 My, my quick stats, 101 flights in the year 2024 only 58,000, 80 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:29,240 almost 59,000 miles. So a lot of it is just kind of, 81 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:35,520 you know, regional US travel 33 hours lost from delays because 82 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:39,600 of that because from flying so a day and a half basically. 83 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:42,680 You'll never get that time back. Nope, Nope. 84 00:04:42,840 --> 00:04:45,440 Just sitting there and I'm already at three hours lost from 85 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:47,280 delays this year and I am only going. 86 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:48,920 I think my point a couple times so far. 87 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:52,440 We should see we are not sponsored by the Flighty app. 88 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:55,280 We are not, but I would happily take a year subscription if 89 00:04:55,280 --> 00:04:56,520 anyway from Flighty is listening. 90 00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:59,080 It's a great little app if you're a frequent traveler. 91 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:02,640 Highly recommended. Unfortunately it is iOS only so 92 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:06,880 my friends with Androids unfortunately can't partake and 93 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:09,440 I did not when I I I flirt with Android every year and I 94 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:12,440 recently did it a few months actually a few weeks ago with a 95 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:15,720 new Galaxy phone and I could not find anything close to what 96 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:18,200 Flighty does. So I really hope they add an 97 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:20,000 Android version to the road map in the future. 98 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:22,840 But as you said, not sponsored by Flighty. 99 00:05:22,840 --> 00:05:24,840 I'm just a fan of the app and I think it has some interesting 100 00:05:24,840 --> 00:05:26,720 information. I always know when you're trying 101 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:29,800 out the Android app, they're getting green text from you. 102 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:33,840 It's like blue Boo Boo green like Jeff's on other Android. 103 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:37,000 Yep, that's that's me, man. I was trying something you got 104 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:38,280 to know. You got to know what's going on 105 00:05:38,280 --> 00:05:39,880 in the world, right? I love Android phones. 106 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:41,680 They're great, but. Here's something you taught me, 107 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:45,240 so I didn't know this. You know the the green text, you 108 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:48,760 think they're SM s s, but they're not necessarily 109 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:52,640 necessarily SM s s. They could be a very we call 110 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:55,160 them, but RCS. RCS, yeah. 111 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:57,280 So Apple added support for that last year. 112 00:05:57,280 --> 00:05:59,120 I think it's part of like iOS 18. 113 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:04,720 And so now there is some comparable capabilities and 114 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:09,160 features that are similar to iMessage but cross-platform 115 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:13,520 between Android and iOS users, as long as your messaging app 116 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:18,120 supports RCS so. But just, you know, educate your 117 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:20,960 family out there because there is a warning that I'm thinking 118 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:27,080 from the FBI like your texts, if they are SMS texts, they can be 119 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:31,920 seen by just assume they can be seen by anybody who is a hacker. 120 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:35,640 So, you know, I'm sure nobody who listens to podcast does 121 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:38,640 this, but taking pictures of your credit card and then like 122 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:41,840 texting them to somebody, you trust them the other end. 123 00:06:41,840 --> 00:06:44,160 It doesn't matter if you trust them on the other end. 124 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:47,560 It's all the people in between that can actually see that. 125 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:52,480 So spread the word, Goodfellow. That's a that's a risk no matter 126 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:54,880 what you do, I guess. So just got to be careful. 127 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:57,880 Why don't we cover our conferences real quick? 128 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:01,680 Because I'm, I'm, I am nervous that you're going to like, 129 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:03,960 you're in the hotel lobby and someone's going to come over and 130 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:07,000 cause problems for us. They're going to ask for an 131 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:08,280 autograph. You know it. 132 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:11,120 Are you the Jim McDonald from the Identity Center podcast, 133 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:14,200 Sir? Let's, let's see, let's start 134 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:16,560 with London. We have the Gartner IM Summit 135 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:21,520 coming up March 24th and 25th. If you use the code IDAC 425, 136 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:24,560 that'll save you €425. That is definitely coming up 137 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:26,280 here in the next couple of weeks by the time this airs. 138 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:28,920 So definitely want to make sure you take advantage of that. 139 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:31,000 Show some port. We will not be there, but we'll 140 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:33,720 be in Berlin for the European Identity and Cloud Conference. 141 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:35,800 So that is May 6th through the 9th. 142 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:39,280 I still only have a flight into Berlin at this point. 143 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:41,400 I still haven't figured out what I'm doing after that. 144 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:47,520 But if you use the code IDAC 25 MKO, that'll get you 25% off. 145 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:49,720 So hopefully we'll see lots of people out there that we know 146 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:52,880 and make and meet new friends while we're out there. 147 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:55,600 So that'll be exciting. I know you've got identity as 148 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:58,840 planned, right? At this point, it's just the one 149 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:02,800 identity beer in Oslo, and then I'm sure you'll be there for 150 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:05,520 this one as well. There there's like the identity 151 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:11,400 beer, which is the first. I guess it's May. 152 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:14,640 What's the first day? The Monday before the 153 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:17,280 conference? It's like May 5th or 6th, yeah. 154 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:21,400 Yeah, so there's an identity beer in Berlin there, so we'll 155 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:22,600 definitely be there as well. It's. 156 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:24,960 Pretty cool. I'm looking forward to it. 157 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:29,080 And then I take a week off and then come back for I think maybe 158 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:33,679 a week to the US and then head into Ideniverse Las Vegas June 159 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:37,799 3rd through the 6th. If you use the code IDV 25-I D 160 00:08:37,799 --> 00:08:41,360 AC25, that gets 25% off. Don't worry about trying to 161 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:43,440 remember these as I quickly ran through them. 162 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:46,560 They will be in our show notes and they're always on the 163 00:08:46,560 --> 00:08:50,640 homepage of idacpodcast.com and just Scroll down and you'll see 164 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:52,160 everything that we've got active at that point. 165 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:55,080 So hopefully people are able to take advantage of that and 166 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:57,240 doesn't cost us, doesn't cost you anything. 167 00:08:57,240 --> 00:08:59,400 It's saves you money and just show support for the show. 168 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:01,760 So please use those if you plan on attending events. 169 00:09:02,680 --> 00:09:05,280 Yeah, and I just want to say something before we kind of dive 170 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:08,280 into our topics of the day is I've had a lot of people reach 171 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:12,520 out to me recently and connect on LinkedIn and say that they 172 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:15,360 really enjoy it. So, and I got to tell you, like 173 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:19,720 every time that happens, like it's just like fills my heart a 174 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:22,400 little bit just to know that people are out there that were 175 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:25,760 part of their their lives or as part of their, their day of 176 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:29,040 their week. And you know, we don't know 177 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:31,320 that, right? We, we put the podcast out there 178 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:33,920 and maybe people listen, maybe they don't. 179 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:37,160 But when people reach out and say I really love the podcast 180 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:40,120 and he's laughter to me and I know it's us to you as well. 181 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:42,240 Oh, for sure. I mean, the fact that we we 182 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:45,800 don't advertise at all and we are 100% word of mouth, I mean, 183 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:48,800 it's pretty amazing, you know, how big this thing has gotten. 184 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:51,560 And yeah, it's definitely not lost to me. 185 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,000 Definitely appreciate everyone who takes the time to reach out 186 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:57,160 and yeah, it's great. So we'll keep on doing it. 187 00:09:57,160 --> 00:09:59,040 And really that's what this show is all about today. 188 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:02,360 Even I mean, today's a mailbag episode, which we get lots of 189 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:04,800 emails and, and stuff like that asking us questions and we try 190 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:07,720 to kind of save them up to we've got kind of a, a good amount 191 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:09,960 that we think we can tackle that might be interesting questions 192 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:13,720 to for everyone to hear. So why don't we just jump right 193 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:14,880 into it? Do you want me to read these 194 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:16,360 off? Do you want to take turns like 195 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:18,360 how to how to view? Why don't you go ahead and read 196 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:20,520 them off for some kind of like in the hotel? 197 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:23,720 I've got just the laptop screen, no second monitor. 198 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:27,520 So I'm going like cheap and cheerful today. 199 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:30,680 That's fine. All right, let's start with, and 200 00:10:30,680 --> 00:10:33,760 this is a very global mailbag by the way, so let me read this off 201 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:36,240 here. So Ryan from Sydney, Australia, 202 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:39,720 I presume I have a new I am professional looking to grow my 203 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:42,560 career. What certifications or skills 204 00:10:42,560 --> 00:10:46,320 which would you recommend focusing on in 2025? 205 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:47,920 I think this is a pretty common question. 206 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:50,200 A lot of people kind of getting into the space. 207 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:52,440 Where do you even start? Yeah. 208 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:55,760 Do you want me to go first or do you want to? 209 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:58,240 OK, so. Yeah, I feel like this is right 210 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:01,160 near wheelhouse because this is all about sharpening the saw or 211 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:04,600 maybe even building a saw and. Providing the saw yeah, yeah, 212 00:11:04,680 --> 00:11:08,480 totally. And I, I, I think there's not 213 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:12,640 one answer for everybody, right? Because you may be really good 214 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:16,640 in one area like you and I are especially was running a 215 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:20,000 program, but we're not going to write application code and 216 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:23,240 things like that work that's other people like they love, 217 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:26,320 like coming up with an idea, make something happen, then be 218 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:28,640 able to make it work on the computer. 219 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:33,760 So you have to know like what what gets you excited? 220 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:37,800 What do you what are you going to put the time into for other 221 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:40,240 people? It's like, hey, the idea of 222 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:43,680 being the go to person who makes a project happen. 223 00:11:43,680 --> 00:11:47,760 And by the way, project managers usually get a lot of credit. 224 00:11:48,560 --> 00:11:51,840 You know, it's a whole team that that pulls steers the boat. 225 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:54,480 But a lot of people in upper management came from a project 226 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:56,720 management background. So if you're a project manager 227 00:11:56,720 --> 00:12:01,760 who delivered a project and made all the parts and pieces come 228 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:05,080 together, you get a lot of the credit behind the scenes anyway. 229 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:08,240 I love a good project manager because I hate doing that work, 230 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:11,840 so it's hard. One is invaluable for sure. 231 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:15,080 So let me give a kudos out shout out to people like Krista and 232 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:17,560 Ben. If you guys are listening, like 233 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:20,440 definitely you know the stars of the team. 234 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:23,600 Yeah, yeah, for sure. Like, and, and that's kind of my 235 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:26,920 background and I think it's a great place to go and develop 236 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:29,920 your skills. I also look if if what you 237 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:33,880 really enjoy doing is detecting from the side of the house and 238 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:37,680 like that's going to get you to develop yourself and build your 239 00:12:37,680 --> 00:12:41,120 career, then you don't want to be doing stuff other than 240 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:44,040 project management and stuff. Put your time into what 241 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:48,640 interests you. I do think certification is 242 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:52,200 definitely having some leverage behind your name in this market 243 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:56,320 is a great way to kind of prove that you've got some knowledge 244 00:12:56,320 --> 00:13:00,560 and maybe that you're you have some ambition and aspirations to 245 00:13:00,560 --> 00:13:03,440 further your career, especially if you're starting to take 246 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:07,520 certifications that are maybe a step beyond where you are at the 247 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:11,200 moment. And then I think, you know, so 248 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:13,680 that can go all the way up to like when you start thinking 249 00:13:13,680 --> 00:13:19,040 about certifications like CISSP and PMP and stuff like that, 250 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:21,800 where it's like, oh, now I'm thinking like, I want to be 251 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:25,920 somebody who does large scale project management or I want to 252 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:32,400 be maybe a seeso someday. Now you start getting looked at 253 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:37,720 and offered positions and opportunities maybe within your 254 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:40,120 current company to take on bigger roles. 255 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:42,200 And that's how you build a career. 256 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:45,600 I think, you know, the question was probably more of like, how 257 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:49,120 do you start out? But it's, I think we, we, we do 258 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:50,720 wind up answering that a lot, I think. 259 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:56,040 But I think one way is to don't be afraid to do kind of some of 260 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:58,880 the entry level roles like working on the help desk. 261 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:03,240 I mean, you know, my role, my first role wasn't really helped 262 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:05,880 desk, but I did a lot of like help desk work where I would 263 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:08,360 like do end user troubleshooting stuff. 264 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:12,520 And you'd learn so much from doing that, both sides of the 265 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:16,880 house, dealing with people and also like learning how to fix 266 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:20,880 computers and work through your identity access non vintage 267 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:23,600 shoes. Yeah, I mean, I started in the 268 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:27,720 help desk, you know, didn't really have anything, any fun 269 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:30,080 stories out of that other than, you know, that's how I got into 270 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:31,920 it is like help desk. The next thing you know, I'm 271 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:36,960 doing IoT stuff before it was even called IoT back in 2001. 272 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:42,840 So definitely would echo you need to make a decision probably 273 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:46,720 earlier on, do you want to be technical or non tech? 274 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:48,720 Because there is plenty of space for both. 275 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:53,160 I feel like it might be easier for some people to do the 276 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:55,560 technical because there is a wealth of training. 277 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:58,520 You know, there's different vendor trainings for different 278 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:00,080 products. Some of them charge, some of 279 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,000 them are free, tons of YouTube videos, things like that. 280 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:07,200 It might be a little bit tougher to get hands on with vendor 281 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:10,160 solutions because those typically cost money and you 282 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,000 really only can learn what you got access to. 283 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:16,160 So that's where maybe a certification does help because 284 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:18,600 typically with a certification, especially particularly a 285 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,400 course, they might give you access to, you know, like a like 286 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:23,200 a sale point training environment or a Savient 287 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:26,760 training environment or ping or cyber Ark or or something like 288 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:29,560 that. If you don't want to be 289 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:32,000 technical and that's fine. I think you still need to be 290 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:34,560 technical enough to have a solid conversation, but that's where 291 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:37,600 the soft skills come in. So if you could articulate and 292 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:39,800 communicate really well, if you're well, organize plenty of 293 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:42,600 spaces, you know, for that kind of stuff, and then you just kind 294 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:43,720 of build up the experience from there. 295 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:46,200 I think you've got to be realistic too, that if you don't 296 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:48,480 have any I am experience and you're looking to get I am, 297 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:51,280 you're probably going to need to figure out, you know, how can 298 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:52,840 you how can you kind of make that work? 299 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:55,080 But I would definitely echo the same thing. 300 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:58,640 Start, start with what you like to do and then fill in the 301 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:01,360 cracks around that. ID Pro has a great body of 302 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:04,200 knowledge for people who are looking to, you know, get into 303 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:06,000 it. I think it's, it's a good 304 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:08,880 starting place. You know, there's, there's a lot 305 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:12,800 more resources now than there ever has been and new ones are 306 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:14,760 always popping up. So like our friend Andrew 307 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:17,200 Chance, the phone has, you know, YouTube channel, He does 308 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:19,320 LinkedIn learnings. Like there's a bunch of stuff 309 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:23,360 that's out there that people have access to, but you have to 310 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:25,360 be prepared to, you know, grind it out. 311 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:26,440 It's not going to happen overnight. 312 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:31,600 What do you think about for somebody who is, you know, mid 313 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:36,240 to late career, do you think that it makes sense for people 314 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:41,880 who are say, coming out of the military or I've just decided to 315 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:45,720 like, I need to change. I need I want to get into 316 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:49,440 identity. I listen to Jim and Jeff and I, 317 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:52,640 you know, I hear people like Eve and Ian talking. 318 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:55,040 It seems so exciting. What do you think for those 319 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:57,240 hoes? I mean, a lot of folks coming on 320 00:16:57,240 --> 00:16:59,080 the military may already have some of these skills, especially 321 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:01,160 if they're coming from an IT background into the military 322 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:04,319 itself. You know, there's definitely 323 00:17:04,319 --> 00:17:06,280 opportunities for sure to take advantage of that. 324 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:09,480 I think the other things to think about would be, you know, 325 00:17:09,839 --> 00:17:14,119 again, IT, yeah, I think the military teaches discipline and 326 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:17,000 that is always helpful no matter what job you're in. 327 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:21,160 So yeah, I think that's, I think that's a good background to 328 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:23,560 start with. And look there, there are roles 329 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:25,400 out there. Some of them aren't, you know, 330 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:26,960 sexy. They're entry level. 331 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:28,160 You might have to start somewhere. 332 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:32,200 But if you are interested in IT, you know, spend the time, I 333 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:35,640 mean, I started an help desk, didn't know anything about IM. 334 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:38,480 And next thing you know, I'm being shown here's these 335 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:40,280 different things and then start to figure it out. 336 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:43,080 And then next thing you know, I'm programming Siemens lighting 337 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:46,120 controls to make them on the network and, you know, 338 00:17:46,120 --> 00:17:48,640 connecting them to electrical panels and all kinds of stuff. 339 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:51,600 You know, before that I was bartending. 340 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:55,080 So really. Yeah, the, the, the line is very 341 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:56,400 thin that you need to kind of pass. 342 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:57,680 So you just need the opportunity. 343 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:00,320 And I hate to say it was sometimes luck is part of that. 344 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:04,080 And you can increase your luck by maintaining and building 345 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:06,520 relationships. There's a lot of people in this 346 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:08,040 space. And if you start to work in 347 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:10,760 those relationships, you know when things open up that'll 348 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:12,040 that'll help you get your foot in the door. 349 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:15,720 I'm sorry, I think that's, that's a great summary, right? 350 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:20,120 Because it's not like if you take this certification or get 351 00:18:20,120 --> 00:18:22,840 that degree, you're guaranteed a good job anyway. 352 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:26,120 You could be stuck in a tough job market or you have none of 353 00:18:26,120 --> 00:18:29,960 those things and you just get lucky and lend in a job. 354 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:34,560 So you just got lucky of it, you know, get that opportunity that 355 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:38,760 you didn't even really know where it would lead. 356 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:41,240 Yeah, for sure. And I think there's certain 357 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:42,960 sectors maybe that might be easier to get into. 358 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:46,680 You know, maybe like nonprofit, it's typically, you know, 359 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:49,160 looking for folks all the time because they may not, you know, 360 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:52,000 pay as well as others, but you get lots of great experience 361 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:53,240 there and you get to wear a lot of hats. 362 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,360 So, you know, maybe that's a an attitude to get in the door for 363 00:18:56,360 --> 00:18:59,240 for folks. So volunteering is another way, 364 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:02,320 local organizations, you know, just offer to help and be 365 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:04,960 helpful and hopefully you know that leads and stuff. 366 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:07,680 Yeah, Yeah. That's a great, great 1. 367 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:09,520 So I think we hit that question pretty good. 368 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:11,840 Yeah, that was going from Ryan. So hopefully that helps. 369 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:16,320 If not, drop us a message on LinkedIn and tell us what how 370 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:17,440 else we can answer that question. 371 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:19,480 That's a. Good question for you, Jeff. 372 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:23,120 That's a good question. So I looked at our podcast 373 00:19:23,120 --> 00:19:28,000 listener stats and I don't trust them completely, but I wanted to 374 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:33,600 ask you, US is definitely our top country for listener that 375 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:38,040 like 36%. Surprisingly low if you think 376 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:39,480 about it. Where this thing? 377 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:42,040 Started what country came in second place? 378 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:45,680 I think it's the UK, isn't it? I mean, it's gonna be English 379 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,520 speaking India maybe. India, OK. 380 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:51,480 So yeah, give me a guess of what percentage of our listening 381 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:56,840 population. 10:15 I haven't looked at this. 382 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:58,440 I have access to that I just haven't looked at in a long 383 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:01,000 time. So this is just over the last 30 384 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:06,520 days and it was 3.6% three. .6% That doesn't sound like a lot. 385 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:09,400 It doesn't. That's second place. 386 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:12,200 So it's really spread out over all the countries. 387 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:14,960 That's right, we are. We don't, we don't put all of 388 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:16,880 our eggs in in one American basket. 389 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:18,040 We spread them all over the world. 390 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:20,720 And eggs are really expensive right now, so that's probably a 391 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:23,000 good thing. Yeah, that's true. 392 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:25,440 All right, well, let's let's keep moving around the world 393 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:29,480 here. Let's go to Diego from Madrid in 394 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:32,080 Spain. What are some of the most common 395 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:36,640 mistakes companies make when rolling out MFA and how do you 396 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:40,400 avoid them? So first mistake is if you're 397 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:44,640 waiting till 2025 to roll at MFA, you're probably about, you 398 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:47,720 know, 10 years really too late, but really probably four or five 399 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:50,720 years too late at this point. But hey, yeah, let's, let's 400 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:53,280 assume you know, that maybe they, they, you know, just 401 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:54,920 couldn't get to it and now they're doing it. 402 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:57,840 So what are some common mistakes that you've seen, Jim, when it 403 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:03,760 comes to rolling out MFA? You know, so my, my first 404 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:08,600 reaction to this question is that the IM practitioners that 405 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:11,520 I've worked with tend to know their user populations really 406 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:16,400 well. So I don't think the, it's just 407 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,520 like the user experience or just forgetting things about your 408 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:23,400 user is a common mistake. But I do think that's probably 409 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:27,960 the area that, you know, we say this has got to be the front and 410 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:31,360 foremost on your mind is like our user is going to receive 411 00:21:31,360 --> 00:21:33,800 this. And there's user populations 412 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:39,160 that don't have access to their device when they are at work. 413 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:42,600 So if they're in like kind of a clean room environment or maybe 414 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:44,960 working in a prison or something, they can't bring in 415 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:48,480 their phone, that's a concern. Then there are certain users 416 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:51,360 where they're like, those are my phone, I pay the bill, why 417 00:21:51,360 --> 00:21:54,720 should I have to take, you know, install your software on it, 418 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:57,320 things like that. So I think different 419 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:01,160 organizations face different use cases like that. 420 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:05,680 But in my experience, like practitioners seem to know that 421 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:09,600 one. I think the biggest probably 422 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:12,840 thing that I've seen people get hung up on, it's like if they 423 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:16,640 try and push it up to too many users at once and they're helped 424 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:19,840 us yes, for us with issues for because I mean, let's face it, 425 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:23,600 you know, we go back to my my favorite person to bring up on 426 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:25,920 like who's a non-technical person, my dad. 427 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:27,000 I. Haven't heard from your dad in a 428 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:28,360 while. I know. 429 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:33,680 Well, here he is and you know, you push out MFA to him and he 430 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:37,080 might be like, what is this? They want me to, especially if 431 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:40,080 you, you do something new. And it's not like if it's the 432 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:43,280 SMS to your phone, he's trying to get to figure that out 433 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:45,920 because everybody does that. It's like you picked up us now, 434 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:49,920 but if you have to go and download an authenticator app, 435 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:53,440 it's not going to get it. It's might be the first time 436 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:55,960 he's ever had to do it. It's going to be super 437 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:59,760 confusing. Or even if he has done it, he 438 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:02,600 maybe hasn't done it twice on the same authenticator app or 439 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:04,360 no. Like the insurance and outs of 440 00:23:04,360 --> 00:23:07,200 how it's going to work. It's going to be confusing to 441 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:09,080 him. So he's probably going to have 442 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:11,440 to call the help desk or open some kind of ticket or 443 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,120 something. Which is fine, he can handle 444 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,560 some tickets coming through. But if you do 10,000 users in 445 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:22,160 one weekend and your help desk gets 1000 messages, man, you're 446 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:24,760 in trouble. Yeah, I mean I I don't want to 447 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:28,600 get 10,000 calls from your dad asking me to set up an 448 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:30,840 authenticator. You know they won't be quick, 449 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,640 They won't be quick calls. Well, I think that, but that 450 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,440 highlights, I think, the importance of communication and 451 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:39,280 the user experience. Think about what you're doing 452 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:42,160 and then make it as simple as possible. 453 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:46,400 Yeah, just simplify it. So definitely, for sure, I think 454 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:51,400 simplification helps. You know, I struggle with this 455 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,720 because everybody at this point, no, everybody in the IM industry 456 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:57,680 and security industry probably understands the SMS is not a 457 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:01,800 great MFA option. It's very easy, it's ubiquitous, 458 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,960 we've all figured out how to use it, but it is better than 459 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,320 nothing. So if you have the choice and 460 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:11,960 you think your users can tolerate it, try to go with a, 461 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:14,480 you know, an authenticator app of some sort, either your own 462 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:17,680 company or one of the major ones like, you know, Google, 463 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:19,840 Microsoft, Authy, you know, things like that. 464 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:20,720 There's plenty of those out there. 465 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,920 But I would not, I would not try to force people, especially 466 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:30,000 right away into the most difficult one. 467 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:35,240 Try to have a couple options. I think mistake that I see is, 468 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:38,120 well, we're only going to use the the authenticator app from 469 00:24:38,120 --> 00:24:40,040 Microsoft, for example. Just pick on that one for now. 470 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,280 It's a great app. It works well, but if that's the 471 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:45,680 only option you've got, what if your phone doesn't support it? 472 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:46,920 What if you forget your phone, right? 473 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:49,480 There's a whole bunch of other kind of things around that and 474 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:53,120 you, you're really setting yourself up for pain on the help 475 00:24:53,120 --> 00:24:55,360 desk side. So you'll want to think about 476 00:24:55,360 --> 00:24:57,160 that. I think the other thing that I 477 00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:59,880 typically see is they think it's like an, like a, either an all 478 00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:02,200 or nothing or well, we're just going to put it on this app. 479 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:04,800 And so you end up with these gaps and covers. 480 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:06,400 OK. Well, we have MFA, but it's only 481 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:10,720 on our Active Directory and there's a whole bunch of like 482 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:13,240 SAS apps out there that don't have MFA. 483 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:17,720 So I think trying to have, you know, the coverage to make sure 484 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:22,040 you have as many applications as possible with an MFAA lot easier 485 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,960 if you have a single identity provider, single sign on 486 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,760 provider that you're using that you can tie that to might not be 487 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,920 feasible for everyone. But try to have as much coverage 488 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,240 with as many different options and let people choose the option 489 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:37,000 that they like. And over time you can ratchet up 490 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:38,400 the security. Like I said, I don't, I don't 491 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,240 think you have to go immediately to, you know, retina scan and 492 00:25:41,360 --> 00:25:43,560 and you know, send me your force born child. 493 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:46,400 To prove who you are, but you're definitely going to get hate 494 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:50,120 mail for that one. So direct the hate mail to Jeff 495 00:25:50,120 --> 00:25:52,360 at I Back podcast, not Jim. That's fine. 496 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:54,840 Yeah, you know, you know, you've made it once you get hate mail. 497 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,640 So that's I'll take it. You have to have haters. 498 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:04,040 OK, so two thoughts come to mind #1 is, you know, MFA is multi 499 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:06,280 factor authentication, 2 factors. 500 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:08,600 And here I'm going to name three factors. 501 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:10,920 Then you get to pick two of them, but they have to be 502 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,000 different ones. Something you know, something 503 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:20,520 you have, something you are. So if you say our MFA is first, 504 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:24,400 we're going to get your password and then we're going to ask, you 505 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:29,480 know, what was your first bet like that's not MFA. 506 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,160 Knowledge based medication sucks, don't do it. 507 00:26:33,120 --> 00:26:37,920 Probably what everybody already, everybody already knows, but you 508 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:40,720 still know it's out there and it's horrible. 509 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:44,040 So I will send you more time on that. 510 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:49,200 The other one though, is what I used to talk about a lot was the 511 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,240 unhappy path. So you've got to make sure that 512 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:56,200 if you're going to let people self-serve, reset their multi 513 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:58,920 factor authentication that doesn't go back to knowledge 514 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:02,800 base, like, oh, you want to reset your authenticator app? 515 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,800 Sure. What what was your first touch 516 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,280 name? Like? 517 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,840 No, like that's what the heck are you going to go right for? 518 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:16,120 So most people know that they're saying, I mean, like you said, 519 00:27:16,120 --> 00:27:20,440 like it's should not be in 2025, the thing you're rolling out, 520 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:24,960 but if you have to, you have to. And then think about NFA 521 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:29,680 everywhere. Yeah, communicate have many 522 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:31,160 options. Make it easy. 523 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:35,200 If you, if you treat your IM program and your services like a 524 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,760 product, is it a product that people want to buy from you and 525 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:40,000 use? Think about from that 526 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:43,200 perspective, if it's a crappy product, no one wants to use it. 527 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:44,360 They're going to find ways around it. 528 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:49,000 So find ways to make sure that your IM product or collection of 529 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,200 products, right, Whatever that looks like for your own program 530 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:53,120 or, or whatever it is. But they're good. 531 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:55,440 I mean, nobody wants to use, you know, garbage. 532 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,360 So make sure you actually, you know, give some thought into 533 00:27:58,360 --> 00:27:59,760 like, hey, is this something that I would use? 534 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,480 And if it's not, rethink it. You know, maybe there's an 535 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:05,920 option that that might be, you know, a little bit easier. 536 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:08,040 You know, sometimes you have to make trade-offs. 537 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:10,080 I get it. But I'm a big fan of 538 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:11,760 productizing. I am. 539 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:14,760 And if you have a good product, people will gravitate towards 540 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:15,960 it. That's how I feel, totally. 541 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:20,520 What else do we have? All right, let's continue. 542 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:24,040 I feel like we're staying in the in that same hemisphere. 543 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:30,000 We'll go with, let's see, Omar from Dubai and the UAEI like 544 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:31,840 this question. I kind of say this one for last 545 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:34,400 because I think we can probably go into this quite a bit because 546 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:39,040 OK, so he asked us how should small and mid sized businesses 547 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,720 approach IM when they don't have the same resources as large 548 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,600 enterprises? Omar, I'm going to give you the 549 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,920 identity at the center listener of the week stamp of approval 550 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:50,760 because I think it's such a good question. 551 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,440 This actually got sent maybe a few weeks ago. 552 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,240 So I kind of been sitting on this one because I knew we were 553 00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:57,520 going to have a mailbag coming up. 554 00:28:57,520 --> 00:28:59,440 So I haven't responded in person, but hopefully you're 555 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,680 listening a more. I love this question for a 556 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,520 number of reasons, but please, you start Jim. 557 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,920 Well I got to say for Omar, if you send us your address, we'll 558 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:14,600 mail you a sticker. International UAE like 5 bucks 559 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:16,600 to mail a. We'll leave it at the hotel in 560 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:17,920 Berlin and you can come pick it up. 561 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,400 How about that? Or just meet us up in the 562 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:24,920 conference. But yeah, I mean, it is a good 563 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:32,280 question because you know, where do you start saying, well, don't 564 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:34,680 spend your money on this, don't spend your money on that. 565 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,960 I think it's you have to think about the crown jewels of your 566 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:43,280 organization and then like kind of critical data, critical 567 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:46,840 applications. And so once you kind of focus on 568 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:49,520 what those points are, I think the first thing you have to do 569 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:51,600 is have strong authentication to all those. 570 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:56,800 So if you do have any kind of network or IDP, you've got to 571 00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:59,720 protect that with strong authentication, which means 572 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:01,720 multiple factors of authentication. 573 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:07,000 Ideally it's something like biometric based authentication. 574 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:12,880 I think the second thing beyond that is like protecting your 575 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,480 e-mail system, protecting your ERP application, whatever are 576 00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:19,400 the applications where it's like that's where our data says 577 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,160 that's where our our information. 578 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:27,120 Maybe it's your recipes, your your recipes system, but usually 579 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,400 it's like your business system and your e-mail. 580 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:33,320 And you know, a lot of times it's your Microsoft system. 581 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:36,480 So I'm not saying this is what people should do, but this is 582 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,800 what I see a lot is that organizations say, all right, 583 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:44,760 well, you know, we make doughnuts or we make chairs or, 584 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:49,640 you know, they're they're not a mega, you know, billion dollar 585 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:55,520 company and they want to still be secure, but they don't want 586 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,960 to spend all their money on security and on 19. 587 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:04,640 So we'll go out and get the Microsoft suite and they'll use 588 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,600 the Microsoft authenticator and they kind of like build around 589 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:09,160 that. They put all their files out on 590 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:11,760 the Microsoft shares. I'm not saying that's the only 591 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:16,000 way to do it, but that is what I probably see the most. 592 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:19,840 Well, I think that's, that goes to the strategy of 593 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:22,520 simplification, right? If you have fewer places to try 594 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,560 and secure, if you've settled on a platform, let's say like 595 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,600 Microsoft or Google Workspace or something like that, right, 596 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:33,040 you're, you're reducing the attack surface by having fewer 597 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:34,480 things. So that's good. 598 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:39,560 I like this question because nobody has unlimited funds. 599 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:42,200 I don't care who you are, there is always a theoretical cap 600 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:45,680 maybe for some people, but you have to pick and choose the 601 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:47,440 battles. This is a question you and I 602 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:49,880 have wrestled over, you know, for years over well, where do 603 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,600 you start? Do you invest in authentication 604 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:54,040 first? Is it privileged access 605 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:55,440 management? Is it IGA? 606 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,600 Is it something else? And the answer is, you know, or 607 00:31:58,600 --> 00:31:59,600 consultants. Depends. 608 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,080 It kind of depends on where things are at. 609 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:04,640 But it's not just a technology thing. 610 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:07,160 It could be the people in the process. 611 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:09,760 What if you don't have enough people to AT at, you know, 612 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:13,600 adequately or effectively do? I am for your organization, you 613 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:15,400 go out and hire new people, that's expensive. 614 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,000 Do you contract it out? That can also be expensive. 615 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,000 Do you get maybe get like a, you know, security provider or a 616 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,600 managed provider of some sort to kind of augment things? 617 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,160 Believe it or not, that actually might be cheaper than trying to 618 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,280 hire somebody and, you know, and, and train them and bring 619 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:34,120 them up to speed and then keep them on the long term for, you 620 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:36,560 know, a, an employee. So I think I think you have to 621 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:37,760 look at it from a few different fronts. 622 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:39,640 I'm going to tackle it from the business side first because they 623 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,280 think you have to make the justification for how do I 624 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,440 invest in I am. Do we have enough people? 625 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,120 If we don't, what is our staffing strategy going to be? 626 00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:53,120 Can we support hiring people? Do we want to contract it out 627 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,960 and maybe, you know, fill that temporarily while we're bringing 628 00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,440 in, you know, staff? Or do we want to go the route 629 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:04,320 of, Hey, let's keep the important stuff on our side and 630 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,360 then maybe use like a managed provider or something like that 631 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:12,120 to baby be like our outsourced, I am operation or, you know, I 632 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:14,160 am service in a box, right? Whatever that looks like, you 633 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:16,520 know, for the different providers out there, I think 634 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:18,280 that's one thing you need to figure out first is like, OK, 635 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,400 from the business side, how do we want to structure this from a 636 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,280 staffing perspective? And then on the technology side, 637 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:29,200 where are our crown jewels? My, my current thinking and, and 638 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,880 has been probably for the last couple years is if you don't 639 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:34,280 have MFA, that should be your first thing that you do, no 640 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,080 matter what, figure out how to get MFA in place. 641 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:39,720 If you're not licensed for it, which I don't know how that 642 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,840 would even work for Microsoft. You know, make sure that you got 643 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:46,120 it set up, take advantage of the licensing you have and turn on 644 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:48,880 every single security feature that you possibly can that makes 645 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,520 sense of your organization. A lot of people for whatever 646 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:53,560 reason, just don't take full advantage of their licensing, 647 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,840 you know, in that perspective. But you know, get MFA in front 648 00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:58,360 of places and there's plenty of options out there. 649 00:33:58,360 --> 00:33:59,640 Doesn't have to be just Microsoft, right? 650 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:01,920 There's add on MFA and all kinds of things. 651 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:05,160 And then start thinking about your business processes. 652 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:06,840 Where are you going to get the most bang for the buck? 653 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:09,880 I think a lot of people wish they could afford a, you know, 654 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:13,000 top end, you know, product like a sale point or a satient. 655 00:34:13,639 --> 00:34:15,600 They're very expensive. You know, that's just, that's 656 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:17,880 just the way they are. But there are a lot of good 657 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:20,800 products, especially in the IGA space that I'm finding that are 658 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:23,960 much more economical. They may not have, you know, 659 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:27,719 the, the cachet or the the tracker of success or the great 660 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:30,400 training programs, all that stuff, but you might find that 661 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:33,960 there are some other products in this space that, you know, maybe 662 00:34:34,159 --> 00:34:36,000 more palatable from a budget standpoint. 663 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:40,880 But I wouldn't even bother trying to justify an IGA spend 664 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:46,920 unless you have a lot of onboarding, offboarding, you 665 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,199 know, critical compliance needs to run access certifications 666 00:34:50,199 --> 00:34:53,199 and, and things like that. I think you can get a long way 667 00:34:53,199 --> 00:34:56,280 with the appropriate business process, the appropriate 668 00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:59,840 governance on a program level before you even need to spend 669 00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:02,920 money on stuff. That's kind of what I'm thinking 670 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:04,240 right now. But what do you think, Jim? 671 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,400 Yeah, I had a couple of other thoughts that you were talking. 672 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,840 I think there's a big difference between a small enterprise and a 673 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,440 mid sized enterprise where you could be talking about you know 674 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:21,560 a 10/20/30, a $100 million company that is not the multi 675 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:25,760 billion dollar company. And so those are different 676 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,120 scenarios, right. I also think it's kind of what 677 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:32,240 is your starting point? Are you this your first foray 678 00:35:32,240 --> 00:35:34,800 into trying to secure your enterprise Oregon? 679 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:37,520 Have you been investing in it along the way? 680 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:41,160 And it's like, OK, yeah, MFA, we did that a while ago backing up 681 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:43,680 our systems. We did that a while ago, having 682 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:47,040 some kind of endpoint detection. We've we've been doing that. 683 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:52,200 So, you know, we can handle if we get reassure have a data loss 684 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:56,960 or something like that. The other thought I had was 685 00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:01,080 cyber insurance, you know, are, is that a good investment for 686 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:02,480 you? We have a couple episodes that 687 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:06,440 we have recorded and if you go back to our archives or it's had 688 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,600 people come on who have expertise and cyber insurance 689 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:13,160 and how to think about it and how to position yourself well so 690 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:16,560 that you get not only the right cyber insurance, but you get the 691 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:19,760 a price that you can afford. Don't want to sound like an 692 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:24,000 insurance Marshall, but you know it, it is about not in a lot of 693 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,240 cases. So maybe that is your safety 694 00:36:26,240 --> 00:36:29,440 net. I think a lot of it comes down 695 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:32,480 to where you are, what you've been investing in over time. 696 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:37,440 You know, you might have authentication already in place, 697 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:41,600 but it's really old and rickety, You have to update it. 698 00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:44,640 Same thing with IJ. You might be in a position where 699 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,120 you have the home boat, home built system and you've outgrown 700 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:51,920 it versus somebody that's like 50 employees and they've they've 701 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:53,480 never had to take the song before. 702 00:36:53,720 --> 00:36:56,800 Maybe they can manage the nose for a future only 50 people, 703 00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,640 especially if they're not in highly regulated industry. 704 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,680 The other thing is that, you know, the question might be 705 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,320 coming in from Omar that you know, he's coming from the 706 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:08,880 perspective of customer. I am and that's a whole 707 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:12,440 different discussion. Now it's about, OK, well, even 708 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,040 if you're a small to mid sized business, you obviously have 709 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:18,400 aspirations to get bigger. What do you need to put in place 710 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:22,920 to make your customer experience, you know, superior 711 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:26,160 to what else is available? So then you have to start 712 00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:28,880 thinking about what is your growing market strategy and how 713 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:31,280 does identity fit into that? That's it. 714 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:34,080 That's why I love the customer side because that's such an 715 00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:37,120 exciting conversation. Well, the other thing too is on 716 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:40,520 the customer side, what happens if you get breached, Are you, 717 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:44,720 are you done because you got breached and you know, all your 718 00:37:44,720 --> 00:37:46,880 customer data went out the door or whatever it may be? 719 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:49,560 What's the risk tolerance that your organization has? 720 00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,760 Look, this stuff isn't cheap. I mean, security is expensive, 721 00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:55,760 especially in the aggregate. When you start thinking of all 722 00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:58,720 the things you can and should be doing, I think you have to 723 00:37:58,720 --> 00:38:03,480 figure out where, where is your most riskiest areas and then 724 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:07,200 what do you want to do about it? Not everything has to have a 725 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:10,600 technology control. If you have a strong business 726 00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:12,720 process, you have vigilant people. 727 00:38:12,720 --> 00:38:15,040 I don't know the I am heroes that you and I talk about all 728 00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:17,240 the time. You can get a long way with that 729 00:38:17,240 --> 00:38:20,920 and a lot of places do. Eventually, though, you cannot 730 00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:25,040 have a strategy of heroism. It's just security strategy that 731 00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:27,440 is not sustainable. It might work in short bursts 732 00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:29,320 and it might be something that's needed in the short term. 733 00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:33,440 But I would, I would definitely start to think about, are your 734 00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:36,400 business processes secure? Do you have a way to look at the 735 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:38,640 data? You know, how are you making 736 00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:40,600 sure that you're trying to reduce the risk as most 737 00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:42,880 possible? At some point, you know, 738 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:45,680 someone's going to have to make a decision, Hey, it's time to 739 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:48,440 spend a little money and catch up here or Augment or whatever 740 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:51,160 it may be. What tends up happening a lot of 741 00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:53,520 times I see is you get so far behind that you have to spend a 742 00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:56,200 lot of money to catch up. And it becomes like this 743 00:38:56,200 --> 00:39:01,200 ginormous task to, to just get to where good is or maybe even 744 00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:04,000 adequate. And then, you know, we, I, I 745 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:06,760 talk about peaks and valleys from a budget perspective, You 746 00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:09,880 spend a whole lot of money catching up and then you don't 747 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:12,760 keep up with it. And then guess what, in three to 748 00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,960 five years, maybe a little bit longer if you're lucky, you're 749 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:18,760 spending a whole bunch more money again to try and catch up. 750 00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:20,640 Good. If you could just figure out how 751 00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:23,960 to make that a slow and steady, you know, probably increase just 752 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:27,400 because prices get more expensive over time, I think 753 00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,040 you'll have a better approach. But it takes a lot of financial 754 00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:33,080 discipline to do that and not if your organization is in that 755 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,120 mode of, hey, this is going to be a sustained investment, 756 00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:38,760 identity is forever. And so I think you need to think 757 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:42,600 about identity as a long term commitment for the organization. 758 00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:46,520 I did want to say one more thing on this question before we close 759 00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:49,360 out. I think a lot of people are, you 760 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:53,080 know, so always feels like you're like right on the cusp of 761 00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:58,200 the next big thing and that if you just wait one more year, 762 00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:01,920 then like AI agents are just going to do this all for you. 763 00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:03,960 Well. Blockchain and picks everything 764 00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:06,840 for us up. That happened a few years ago, 765 00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:08,400 right? And here we are. 766 00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:12,680 But I really feel like that, you know, I even had this 767 00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:15,560 conversation with Brian the other day, one of our 768 00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:19,320 colleagues, and he was like, you know, it feels like someone's 769 00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:24,480 just going to come out with this big AI product in two years down 770 00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:27,320 the road. And like, why spend $1,000,000 771 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,880 right now on IGA or whatever that's like do. 772 00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:32,560 You think that Amrax would be cheaper? 773 00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:35,240 Yeah, right. Exactly, exactly. 774 00:40:35,240 --> 00:40:37,240 That's a good point. All these companies, you know, 775 00:40:37,240 --> 00:40:41,400 spending billions of dollars developing, you know, IAI, they 776 00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:44,120 need to recoup that money and they can't have like a 20 year 777 00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:46,600 payback plan. So it's going to be like 778 00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:49,560 everything else, it's going to be expensive at first and then 779 00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:51,040 it will slowly come down in price. 780 00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:55,200 But you know, whoever is building the 1st 100% automatic 781 00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:59,240 AI agent that will solve all of your security needs, expect to 782 00:40:59,240 --> 00:41:02,600 pay a lot of money for that and expect for it to not work very 783 00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:05,560 well as a first iteration. I think, you know, first 784 00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:08,480 versions of anything typically are the starting point minimum 785 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,040 viable product. Maybe you're you're going to be 786 00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:14,600 in for some growing pains and expensive growing pains too. 787 00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:18,360 It's a really good point you don't think of that, but I also 788 00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:21,760 don't think in two years you're just going to flip some AI 789 00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:23,360 switch and send to it all for you. 790 00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:30,640 So what we find, what I find tend to find is that the 791 00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:35,360 organizations that don't invest steadily over time, but once you 792 00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:40,960 fall way behind and have to do so much just to get to, you 793 00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:45,480 know, base level that it's like a really painful process for and 794 00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:47,600 everything. Why do you need multiple 795 00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:49,200 millions of dollars to solve this problem? 796 00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:51,200 We did something eight years ago. 797 00:41:52,240 --> 00:41:54,160 It's like, yeah. And we did something eight years 798 00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:56,120 ago and didn't do anything with it since. 799 00:41:56,520 --> 00:42:00,240 And now it's old, rusty, it doesn't doesn't work very well. 800 00:42:01,240 --> 00:42:02,480 Yeah. It's not a moving, it's not a 801 00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:04,040 stationary target. This is a moving target. 802 00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:08,560 What's good now is going to be not so good, you know, at some 803 00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:10,520 point and you're going to have to modernize or upgrade. 804 00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:15,120 Or maybe I think that's, that's my case for sustained, you know, 805 00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:16,840 appropriate funding. I won't say give me all the 806 00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:19,440 money in the world because, you know, if you you gave me a 807 00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:22,480 billion dollars, I couldn't once spend it all at once and I 808 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:23,640 couldn't get everything done anyway. 809 00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:28,240 Give me, you know, $100 million. Thank you very much over the 810 00:42:28,240 --> 00:42:31,480 next 10 years, right. And and it'll have to be a 811 00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:32,760 little more risk like maybe that's, you know, it's a 812 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:35,000 ridiculous number, but hopefully the the example. 813 00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:37,520 You'll still have every consulting company and every 814 00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:39,960 technology vendor go through your best friend. 815 00:42:40,720 --> 00:42:43,720 Yeah, that's for sure. Yeah, that is, that is 816 00:42:43,720 --> 00:42:45,760 definitely a good point. OK. 817 00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:48,160 So I think those are kind of the the three that we want to 818 00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:50,160 tackle. Anything else or should we end 819 00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:52,560 this thing on a lighter note? And who knows, maybe your maybe 820 00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:55,240 your room will be ready. Yeah, yeah, that would be the 821 00:42:55,240 --> 00:42:57,280 the best lighter note of all for me. 822 00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:01,000 All right, do you want option A or option B? 823 00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:05,120 Do you want me to stay tell you that without knowing what the 824 00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:08,640 question is? Yep, I'll go to option A. 825 00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:14,480 Option A OK, if you had to swap lives with a historical figure 826 00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:19,520 for a week, what would it be and what would you do differently in 827 00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:22,000 their shoes? I was going to say something 828 00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:26,680 like Hugh Hefner or something, but I don't think that, you 829 00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:31,280 know, just like quote UN quote, the easy life is is living life. 830 00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:34,840 You know, you can pick somebody like a Frederick Douglass who 831 00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:37,880 like man, what an impact he had on the world. 832 00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:43,040 So, you know, I just got done watching the Harriet Tubman 833 00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:44,840 movie. Really awesome movie. 834 00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:49,120 What I want to trade places with somebody had it so hard, Yeah. 835 00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:53,800 So it's a really tough question. Well, this is a chance to do 836 00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:55,040 something differently too, right? 837 00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:57,040 So I'll give you an example, right? 838 00:43:57,040 --> 00:43:59,600 For mine, the one that kind of jumps out to me right away is 839 00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:02,840 Abraham Lincoln. And, you know, not to be, I 840 00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:05,200 guess, flippant about it, but I would probably not go to the 841 00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:08,800 theater one night. Yeah, yeah. 842 00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:10,480 Now you want to go to the Ford Theater. 843 00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:14,840 You know, if you do DC, you can go and see where Ford Theater 844 00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:17,320 was. Are you more great by it? 845 00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:20,520 You're just filled with all that kinds of fun facts. 846 00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:22,800 I know you're watching history documentaries all the time. 847 00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:24,680 Oh, yeah, I do. I do. 848 00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:28,040 I was watching someone on the. I had plenty of time on the 849 00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:32,640 airplanes today, Hours and hours to watch history documentaries. 850 00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:37,120 You know, I'm good with Frederick Douglasson. 851 00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:39,760 You know, he was a contemporary of Abraham Lincoln. 852 00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:47,280 He, you know, bought his way out of slavery and then just fought 853 00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:52,200 to end slavery. What would I have done 854 00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:55,080 differently? I don't think I think he had a 855 00:44:55,080 --> 00:45:00,120 hard time during his time of really building a bridge between 856 00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:05,840 himself and Abraham Lincoln. You know, he more saw Lincoln 857 00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:09,800 for his, you know, I, I think he just couldn't get over Lincoln's 858 00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:11,920 flaws and his eyes. He saw the slaw. 859 00:45:12,240 --> 00:45:14,320 He went to Lincoln to be an abolitionist. 860 00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:17,840 The country was not in the polition where they were going 861 00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:20,720 to put an abolitionist in to be president. 862 00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:23,280 And so that wasn't what Lincoln was. 863 00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:26,800 He became an abolitionist by the end of the war, by the end of 864 00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:29,440 his first term. But he wasn't there and it took 865 00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:33,080 time to get there. So maybe partially it was people 866 00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:36,040 like Frederick Douglass pushing along, but I think I would have 867 00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:41,720 tried to befriend Lincoln a little bit more and support him. 868 00:45:41,720 --> 00:45:46,520 And, you know, I think that's what I would have done. 869 00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:50,120 You know, our friend Chad, he has a a saying and I don't know 870 00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:53,440 if he he made it up or stole it from someone, but was it 871 00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:56,240 Incremental progress is better than delayed perfection. 872 00:45:57,560 --> 00:45:59,680 I mean, that's how I feel about it too. 873 00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:04,440 Yeah, for sure. It's it's yeah. 874 00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:06,280 And the late perfection never comes. 875 00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:09,960 Is that how long is that delay? Yeah, We're still working 876 00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:12,560 through that. And we're still working through 877 00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:14,920 that in this country when we're talking about slavery, right? 878 00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:18,000 We're both big people from that time period where the country 879 00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:22,640 was going from a country that has slavery to a country that 880 00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:26,920 didn't have slavery. But the remnants of slavery are 881 00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:29,240 still part of our society today, right? 882 00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:34,240 That's the delayed perfection. Because like, do you, you don't 883 00:46:34,240 --> 00:46:37,560 really ever achieve perfection probably. 884 00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:40,880 And so it's like just a memory. Well, you don't look back on 885 00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:44,520 like ancient Rome and like, oh, and we're still living the, the, 886 00:46:45,240 --> 00:46:46,720 the things that didn't ancient Rome. 887 00:46:46,720 --> 00:46:50,640 We probably are at some level, but we don't even know about it. 888 00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:54,480 So 1000 years from now, I think probably most of those years 889 00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:58,440 will be dealt with 100%. Well, it'll be on, hopefully 890 00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:00,920 it'll be on Star Trek and, you know, exploring no worlds, all 891 00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:01,760 that stuff. So. 892 00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:03,840 Yeah, if, if there's a world left. 893 00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:06,920 All right, well, let's leave it there before. 894 00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:09,440 Either on that lighter note. Yeah, thanks, Jim. 895 00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:11,840 All right, let's go ahead and wrap it up for this week. 896 00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:17,040 Thank you to Omar, Diego and Ryan for sending stuff in. 897 00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:20,920 If you have other questions, drop them in emails or LinkedIn 898 00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:24,120 messages to Jim and myself. We try to answer as many as we 899 00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:26,840 get as they come through the good ones. 900 00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:28,880 We tend to save, you know, for a mailbag like this. 901 00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:32,320 But definitely appreciate people taking the time to, you know, 902 00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:33,600 send us our thoughts and stuff like that. 903 00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:38,240 So let's see on the web, IDC, podcast.com, if you like what 904 00:47:38,240 --> 00:47:40,800 you heard, like and subscribe. If you don't like it, like and 905 00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:42,440 subscribe anyway. And then send it to somebody you 906 00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:44,560 hate. And, you know, maybe they, they 907 00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:47,360 will either hate it, watch it with you or listen to it or 908 00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:50,760 maybe they'll like it. So let's see what else connect 909 00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:53,640 us on LinkedIn. And yeah, we'll leave it there 910 00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:56,120 for this week. Thanks everyone for watching and 911 00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:58,520 or listening and we'll talk with you all in the next one. 912 00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:03,920 You've been listening to Identity at the Center. 913 00:48:04,240 --> 00:48:08,360 We hope you've enjoyed the show. Make sure to like, rate and 914 00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:11,960 review, and we'll be back soon. But in the meantime, hit the 915 00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:15,400 website at identity@thecenter.com. 916 00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:20,080 See you next time on Identity at the Center.