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This is identity at the center. 
If it has anything to do with 

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IAM, this is the go to podcast 
now your hosts Jim McDonald and 

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Jeff Stedman. 
Welcome to the Identity at the 

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Center podcast. 
I'm Jeff and that's Jim. 

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Hey, Jim. 
Hey, Jeff. 

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How are you? 
Not so bad yourself doing great.

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So I put a post on the ID Pro 
Slack channel the other day and 

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asked, you know, who are people 
that folks would like to hear 

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come on to the show as guests. 
And I got a response from Trigva

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Holland Hobland and he mentioned
somebody from Microsoft and I 

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asked him if he saw the episode 
with or heard the episode with 

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Pam Dingle and he hadn't. 
I went out and listened to it 

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and said oh that's fantastic. 
Hit a follow up question. 

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So I'm gonna bounce this off 
you. 

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Do we have transcripts of the 
episodes that people can go and 

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and search? 
We do not. 

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Not yet. 
I'm trying to figure out how to 

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get it done, but one, it's 
expensive to do 2 It takes a 

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long time to figure out. 
There's automated services, but 

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you're kind of left to. 
You still have to like read them

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to see if they make sense and. 
I don't know. 

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I think ultimately, yeah, I'll 
try to figure something out. 

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But today we do not trying to 
think actually the Spotify app 

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does. 
So if you're a Spotify listener,

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you can go into the Spotify app 
and I believe there are 

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transcripts there. 
It does it automatically. 

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I don't have any control over 
it. 

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So I, you know, I will say that 
is all on Spotify, whatever. 

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Our words get translated into 
what shows up in there, but. 

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Not today, but it's something 
I'm trying to figure out how to 

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do. 
That doesn't just take an 

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inordinate amount of time. 
Yeah, I mean, you hit the the 

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nail on the head there with it's
expensive. 

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One thing we didn't, I didn't 
realize, and I'm assuming you 

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didn't realize when we started 
doing this thing four years ago 

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is how expensive it is from a 
podcast. 

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So one of the things you you 
went out and got us was software

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so that we could take all the 
episodes and put them up to 

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YouTube. 
You know, it's not like a full 

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video, but there is some visual,
you know, sound bar thing kind 

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of thing happening. 
Waveform I guess is what it's 

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called and we've already got 150
subscribers to the YouTube 

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channel. 
But I would just ask everybody 

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to to go out there and you know 
hit subscribe that's going to 

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help grow the channel. 
It's it's funny when I go into 

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Apple podcast and I type 
identity, it's like our podcast 

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comes up right away but you 
almost have to type out identity

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at the Center for it to show up 
in YouTube so. 

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Well, identity's such a fake 
term, right? 

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It's we know what it means in 
our context, but it means 

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different things in different 
contexts. 

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So yeah, I also just wanted to 
mention the the website which 

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you created. 
I I know you put a lot of time 

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into creating it. 
I'm assuming that it kind of 

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takes care of itself for the 
most part now, but I did want to

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point out one of the features 
that I wind up using all the 

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time myself is the search 
feature. 

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So you can go into 
idacpodcast.com, click on Listen

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and search. 
You know, either by name or by 

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topic, you know, type in RBAC or
something like that and see all 

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the episodes where we had a 
significant amount of content or

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discussion on a specific. 
Topic Yeah, it took a while for 

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that to get in place, but yeah, 
all of our episodes are. 

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There automatically. 
And yeah, the search box is very

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simple, it just searches for 
keywords right? 

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So you type in RBAC like you 
said, and if it's in the show 

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title or in the show notes, it 
should pull back entries related

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to that, which I'm sure we have 
a few at this point, Yeah. 

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So the last thing I'll I'll 
point out. 

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So for folks who are part of ID 
Pro who have access to select 

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channels, awesome. 
It's probably the the biggest 

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benefit of being a member of ID 
Pro, but the thread is still 

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open. 
So folks want to, you know, 

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nominate somebody you know that,
especially if you know the 

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person and will handle doing an 
introduction, that would be 

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great. 
But I wanted to shout out to 

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Sarsourcetti and Ian Glazer 
because they gave several 

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recommendations, so we got a a 
good little bit of a list to to 

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chew through in 2024. 
Yeah. 

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And you're responsible for all 
the show bookings and guests and

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things like that. 
So that's right. 

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That's, that's that's the weight
that I carry. 

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Yeah, you know, Speaking of the 
Spotify app, something I started

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doing recently is they have a 
feature where you can add in 

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like Q&A and like poles. 
So I've started to do that on 

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some more recent episodes. 
And if you remember, a couple 

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episodes ago, this episode, 245,
we were talking about which 

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universe we would like to live 
in, whether it was Game of 

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Thrones, The Matrix, or The 
Walking Dead. 

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And based on a very limited 
sample size so far. 

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The winner right now is Game of 
Thrones, which surprises me that

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people would want to live in the
Game of Thrones universe. 

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Seems very cutthroat and brutal.
Matrix is in second by like 1 

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vote. 
And then nobody has voted for 

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The Walking Dead, which I 
believe was your choice when we 

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started talking about that. 
Yeah. 

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And and I mean none of those 
options are great. 

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The reason I mean just just to 
go back why I picked The Walking

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Dead is that I take prescription
medicine and without it I don't 

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think I would survive. 
So I had the idea that you know 

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if I was in the Game of Thrones,
like I wouldn't last very many 

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weeks, but if I was in Walking 
Dead I could probably go and 

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raid a pharmacy and get the 
medication that I need. 

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So it was like a logic based 
answer. 

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I know that kind of takes the 
fun out of it. 

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To some degree. 
But it just, you know it's it's 

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a it's a question that shows our
personalities, right we're I set

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the Matrix because I like air 
conditioning and being 

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comfortable and Wi-Fi. 
I can do that in The Matrix. 

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Do I know I'm a battery? 
I don't know. 

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Maybe I'll find out at some 
point, decide to pursue that 

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rabbit hole. 
Either way, I don't have to 

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worry about having my head 
chopped off or being bitten by a

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zombie or anything like that. 
Isn't that blue pill? 

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Yeah, the red pill is the one 
that I'll take you out. 

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The blue pill keeps you in 
'cause you've never seen the 

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Matrix, right? 
I didn't even know that was. 

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I thought it was like if you 
were taking the blue pill, that 

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meant you didn't know what was 
going on then. 

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Basically takes the red pill 
that. 

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OK, it's like you. 
It's like you. 

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This conversation never took 
place and you just kind of wake 

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up and it's like you're back to 
being a battery. 

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Gotcha. 
Let's see. 

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So Thanksgiving this week. 
I've got family in house pretty 

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much all week. 
They're doing their best not to 

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make noise, which it's fine. 
Whatever. 

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Like, you know, we should be OK.
My dogs will start barking, 

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maybe at some point. 
My brother-in-law is apparently 

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a trigger for my youngest dog 
and just howls his face off 

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whenever he sees them. 
Which is really, It was cute at 

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1st and now it's gotten really 
annoying because it's like every

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time like, Nope, Same person. 
He just went upstairs. 

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He came back downstairs. 
Same person. 

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Yeah, but I so you're having a 
an exciting week, but less 

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exciting than all the people who
work for Open AI. 

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Yeah, no kidding. 
Open AI has got some got some 

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things going on over there. 
I'm not qualified to speak on 

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it, but hopefully they get 
things sorted out because I'm a 

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big fan of AI and hopefully 
things work out. 

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Let's see. 
So this show's gonna go live on?

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It was at the 27th, I think it 
is a which is a Monday like 

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usual. 
And then I'm gonna be in New 

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York City for the Identiverse 
regional event that's taking 

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place on Friday December 1st. 
So I'll have a link in our show 

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notes for people to check out if
they can make it. 

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Probably best for like local 
people not to be there but it's 

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free and the only and the way 
you can show your support is 

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using our registration link to 
to show up. 

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So if you're there I'll have 
stickers. 

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I'll be given fist bumps with 
gratitude instead of checking 

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out what that's all about. 
So. 

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I think it's all the promotion 
I've got before we get into our 

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main topic, which is 
decentralized identity. 

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Do you have anything else, Jim, 
or should we get going? 

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Well, let's get going. 
All right, so to help us with 

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decentralized identity and 
figure out what the heck we're 

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talking about, we've got the 
identity woman herself. 

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She's Kalia Young. 
Welcome to the show, Kalia. 

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Great to be here. 
Thank you so much for taking the

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time. 
And we've got tradition on the 

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show. 
Whenever we have someone on for 

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the first time, as we like to 
find out sort of their identity,

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origin story, you know, where 
did they come from? 

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Who made them what they are? 
Did identity choose them? 

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Did it choose? 
You know, did you choose it? 

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Those sorts of things. 
Tell us a little about how you 

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got into the world of identity. 
Sure. 

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I had a pretty unconventional 
path in the year 2000. 

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I went to a conference called 
Planet Work, which you can think

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of like planet and network 
mushed together. 

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And that that conference they 
had like the chief scientist of 

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Sun talking about what you know,
what we would now call Uber, 

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like you're going to have cell 
phones, they're going to pick 

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you up. 
And we're like, no way. 

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Like it was so cool and and 
after that conference that 

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community of people who were 
there met for about 18 months 

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and wrote a paper published 
ultimately in. 2003 called the 

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Augmented social network White 
paper Building Identity and 

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Trust into the next generation 
Internet and I started hanging 

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out with the folks who wrote 
that paper in the fall of 2002 

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and totally understood what they
were talking about and they were

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saying like look, we need user 
centric digital identity to 

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support. 
People connecting to each other,

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not being intermediated by 
governments or businesses, which

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will happen if we don't build 
open standards. 

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And I was like, you're so right,
I'm, I'm there. 

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And I started working with the 
guys who were trying to make 

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that vision a reality. 
I became one of the first. 

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Employees of what at the time 
was called Identity Commons, 

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which was their project to do 
this, and I started networking 

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with other people who might 
share this vision and ultimately

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ran into a bunch of user centric
digital identity oriented people

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at the big Identity conference 
at the time, Digital Identity 

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World, in the fall of 2004. 
The Identity Gangly mailing list

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started out of that. 
And then. 

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I've I've been working in the 
field ever since. 

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So you've got a pretty long 
story to history. 

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You've also published a couple 
books. 

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What are those about and how did
you get into the book writing 

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game? 
Sure. 

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So the first book that I wrote 
was actually coming out of was 

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that. 
Yeah, that was. 

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I I wrote it first, but I think 
it was published after how's 

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that was the domains of 
identity, which I wrote as my 

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master's thesis in the Master of
Science and Identity Management 

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and Security program at UT 
Austin. 

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And it really was born out of a 
frustration in the field of 

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identity management to put 
everything into one big BLOB. 

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And you we cannot solve this 
problem as one big BLOB. 

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Should the border agent take 
your biometrics when you're 

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crossing the border is an 
identity management problem. 

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So is enrolling your kids at 
soccer and proving their age. 

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But they're very different 
identity management problems, 

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and we might want a a a 
landscape of choices to to 

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categorize problems. 
So it has 16 different domains. 

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All of them existed 100 years 
ago, so it's not particular to 

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digital identity, but it's very 
useful for thinking about 

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digital identity problems and 
challenges. 

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That was formally published in 
in 2020, and I also published 

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the very first book about self 
Sovereign Identity, called A 

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Comprehensive Guide to Self, 
Sovereign Identity. 

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It's up on Amazon. 
And unfortunately it's a bit out

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of date that the sort of 
second-half of the book, it's 

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like the current state of the 
industry just ignore that part, 

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00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:26,240
read the the the beginning part 
and and it's a great kind of 

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orientation to how the work of 
decentralized identity and and 

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self sovereign identity got 
started and and ways to think 

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about it clearly. 
I can't imagine trying to write 

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a technology that is so I don't 
know. 

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00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:42,280
Futuristic. 
I don't know, for lack of a 

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00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:43,440
better word, like Self 
Sovereign. 

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When we're. 
I think we're still trying to 

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figure that out. 
I'll have links in our show 

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notes at both books so people 
can check it out. 

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I think. 
Fun fact, if you are a Kindle 

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Unlimited submitter subscriber, 
the comprehensive guide to Self 

238
00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:56,360
Sovereign Identity is actually 
free with your Kindle Unlimited 

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membership. 
So. 

240
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I don't. 
I hopefully that helps you. 

241
00:12:59,920 --> 00:13:00,360
Yeah, I'm. 
I'm. 

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00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:03,400
I don't know, but people can 
check that out, at least for 

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free. 
If they're a Kindle person. 

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It helps Amazon. 
It helps Jeff Bezos. 

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It helps. 
I mean they're they're a 

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struggling company, you know, 
hopefully they'll be able to 

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make it to the next year, but 
I'll put links in our show notes

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for that. 
You also Co founded the Internet

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Identity Workshop or Iowi have 
not been there. 

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I don't think Jim's been there 
either. 

251
00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:25,360
It's something that we've kind 
of heard about. 

252
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I think I've talked about this 
on a show before. 

253
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I feel like I would be a little 
bit intimidated going to there 

254
00:13:29,560 --> 00:13:33,480
because I feel like these giant 
identity brains are there and 

255
00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:35,720
they're gonna be talking way 
over my head. 

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00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:38,280
And I think the only way that I 
would learn something would be 

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like through some sort of 
osmosis or something like that. 

258
00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:44,560
Who is this conference for? 
Can you kind of take us behind 

259
00:13:44,560 --> 00:13:46,960
the the curtain of it? 
Sure. 

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00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:51,280
I mean we got started in 2005 
really. 

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00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:55,440
It was an opportunity for the 
mailing list that formed out of 

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00:13:55,440 --> 00:14:00,040
that identity gang era to talk 
to itself. 

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00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:04,320
And the the first Iowa was 
actually one day of 

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00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:07,680
presentations from all the 
different sort of. 

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00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:12,520
Leading user centric potential 
protocols at the time and then I

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00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:15,720
said like hey let's stay for 
another day and talk to 

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ourselves. 
Doing it using a method called 

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open space technology where you 
facilitate and support the the 

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00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:28,920
participants Co creating the 
agenda live the day of the event

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and we use that format now for 
all three days of the event. 

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We'd literally sit in a big 
circle the 1st morning and each 

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00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:44,080
morning afterwards and people 
stand up and on a piece of 

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00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:49,160
cardstock articulate the name of
the session that they would like

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00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:51,520
to convene. 
And it can. 

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Sessions take many formats. 
SO1 format is asking a question 

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00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:00,560
and inviting people to come and 
help you answer it. 

277
00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:05,600
Another one is, you know, people
presenting for 10 or 15 minutes 

278
00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:10,400
about some aspect of ongoing 
technical work or problem 

279
00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:13,400
solving that they're doing and 
and sharing it with the 

280
00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:15,880
community. 
Another is just talking about 

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00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:20,040
critical issues that could use 
more discernment. 

282
00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:25,080
And there's a broad range of 
what those topics entail. 

283
00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:28,840
So they go all the way from, 
like, deeply philosophical. 

284
00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:32,720
Sort of like what is identity 
and the meaning of the universe 

285
00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:38,680
to like super down in the weeds,
technical nitty gritty. 

286
00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:43,080
And that broad range is part of 
the magic of our space is that 

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00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,960
it's not, it's not like all of 
those things are welcome and I 

288
00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:52,720
think it helps us maintain our 
grounding into the complexity 

289
00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:55,800
that identity has while at the 
same time. 

290
00:15:56,640 --> 00:16:00,120
Creating an opportunity for 
really practical problem solvers

291
00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,400
to move their work forward. 
I've never been to an 

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00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:07,160
unconference before, but it 
sounds Is that what an 

293
00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:11,560
unconference is? 
So I I actually also have a hat 

294
00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:15,040
as an unconference designer and 
facilitator and work with many 

295
00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:17,560
different communities. 
And I think of unconference 

296
00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:22,040
formats as anything that is more
organized than. 

297
00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:26,760
A cocktail party and less 
organized than talking heads on 

298
00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:29,160
a panel. 
So there's a whole range of 

299
00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:32,480
potential formats and one of 
them is the format that we use 

300
00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:36,440
primarily at Iowa, which is open
space technology. 

301
00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:40,680
We have a little interlude on 
Wednesday where we had demo hour

302
00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:45,520
where we have 20 different 
people spread out throughout the

303
00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:48,240
venue space where our lunch 
tables are. 

304
00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:52,440
And they demo for 5 minutes and 
then they kind of circulate and 

305
00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:56,160
you can see like 10 demos in an 
hour after lunch on Wednesday. 

306
00:16:57,200 --> 00:16:59,880
And are those things that I 
guess people have built, are 

307
00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:01,800
they like vendors, like what 
does that look like? 

308
00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:09,200
Yeah, it's it's it's things 
people have built, protocols 

309
00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:13,480
people are have working 
prototypes of. 

310
00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:17,119
You know, now we're seeing more 
and more like actual products in

311
00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:20,000
market. 
So last IW, we had the folks who

312
00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:25,000
built the mobile driver's 
license application for the 

313
00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:27,400
State of California sharing what
they had built. 

314
00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:30,560
Yeah. 
So it's really an opportunity 

315
00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:35,840
for the technologist to have 
another medium in which to share

316
00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:38,320
their successes and work. 
Sounds like a lot of fun. 

317
00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:40,480
I think Jim and I have to try to
figure out how to get there at 

318
00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:42,280
some point. 
I don't know how you find the 

319
00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:45,560
time to do all this. 
Because you're writing books, 

320
00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:47,920
You know you're helping with 
this conference, you're doing 

321
00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:49,240
identity stuff in the real 
world. 

322
00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:51,720
And then you also put out a 
newsletter, A Dentosphere. 

323
00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:54,400
Great name, by the way. 
How did that come about and 

324
00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:55,600
what's that about? 
Sure. 

325
00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:02,360
So I I collaborate with my 
colleague Infominer on that, and

326
00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:07,120
we really survey what's going on
in the decentralized Self, 

327
00:18:07,120 --> 00:18:09,640
Sovere and identity space every 
week. 

328
00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:17,040
We actually have some public our
our our feed RSS feed aggregator

329
00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:18,960
is public. 
Like if you want to filter 

330
00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:21,960
through what I filter through 
every week, you're welcome to do

331
00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:24,000
it. 
It's sitting there on the public

332
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:28,480
Internet, but it really felt 
like a good thing to do with the

333
00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:31,440
time and we got a really great 
rhythm. 

334
00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:36,520
Every Friday I spend about 3 
hours going through all of the. 

335
00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:41,280
News and filtering it out and 
deciding what is worthwhile for 

336
00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:46,880
many other people to read and by
Monday or Tuesday info miners 

337
00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:54,160
got it all formatted and ready 
to go in in sub stack and I I 

338
00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:58,840
think of it as you know if 
you're ACEO. 

339
00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:03,440
Or anybody working heads down on
shipping a product, It's really 

340
00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:06,320
hard to pull your head up and 
like pay attention to what's 

341
00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:08,080
happening in the rest of the 
industry. 

342
00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:12,680
And I I feel like the newsletter
is if you're gonna lift your 

343
00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:16,720
head up, you could pay attention
to the newsletter and get a 

344
00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:20,360
sense of it, and then go back to
doing your work right? 

345
00:19:20,360 --> 00:19:27,440
That it's keeping a pulse of the
latest relevant information? 

346
00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:33,040
Both in terms of new companies 
and products, but also standards

347
00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:38,120
work and government 
announcements and and sort of 

348
00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:41,120
movement in the space. 
I think I appreciate that 

349
00:19:41,120 --> 00:19:44,160
because I think there's just so 
much content out there that 

350
00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:46,640
sometimes kind of figure out, 
OK, well, what's clickbait? 

351
00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:49,680
What's not right is there? 
Like, what should I be concerned

352
00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:51,200
about and kind of working 
through things? 

353
00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:55,000
I think it's, I mean that's one 
of the beautiful things about 

354
00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:57,040
our industry. 
It's so open. 

355
00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:00,440
This is both a feature and a 
bug. 

356
00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:03,520
The bug being, it's so open you 
can't figure out what to pay 

357
00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:05,440
attention to. 
And in fact, that's one of the 

358
00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:11,600
core sort of value propositions 
that my colleague Lucy and I 

359
00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:16,040
have in our work is helping 
people figure out where they 

360
00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:20,320
should pay attention to based on
all the all the buzz that's 

361
00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:22,800
happening 'cause it's certainly 
getting a lot of attention these

362
00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:24,520
days. 
So when I ask you about the 

363
00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:27,960
Identity Woman sort of moniker, 
how did that come about? 

364
00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:30,560
Because I thought I read 
something that kind of 

365
00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:33,280
interesting way back when. 
And I want to make sure that the

366
00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,600
rumors are, are there, like, you
know, you're the only woman in 

367
00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:38,080
the room or something like that.
And I'm like, oh, I've just 

368
00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:39,600
become this. 
Is that true? 

369
00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:44,440
Yeah, I mean, back in the day, 
you know, I shared a little bit 

370
00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:49,320
about working with Identity 
Commons and those guys were 

371
00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:51,880
really fun to be around and work
with. 

372
00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:56,320
And I. 
And Doc Searles was kind of 

373
00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,120
going around to different 
community members on the mailing

374
00:20:59,120 --> 00:21:02,040
list and really strongly 
encouraging us all to start 

375
00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:06,120
blogging because he understood 
this emerging medium was 

376
00:21:06,120 --> 00:21:10,600
important for supporting us, 
sharing our work beyond just 

377
00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:13,960
ourselves in a mailing list. 
And it also gave people a way to

378
00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:17,240
express themselves in their own 
space and then post the link 

379
00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:19,960
into the mailing list. 
So they were, sort of. 

380
00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:23,560
Putting less pressure on being 
seen and heard in the mailing 

381
00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:29,280
list, if that makes sense. 
And you to start blogging you 

382
00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:32,280
need a cute pithy name for your 
blog. 

383
00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:37,760
And I was like, I guess, I I 
guess I'm the identity woman 

384
00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:41,160
looking around. 
I think I sort of had seen like 

385
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:46,080
Pam Dingell and Mary Reddy maybe
across the room at Digital 

386
00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:49,000
Identity World, but there was 
certainly nobody I was working 

387
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:53,840
with in in the small community 
on an ongoing basis. 

388
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:56,800
And so, yeah, that that was the 
name. 

389
00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:00,000
And then if you look really 
carefully in Kim Cameron's loss 

390
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:04,000
of identity, he thanks everybody
in the opening paragraph. 

391
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:06,440
Or you know. 
Sort of, yeah. 

392
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:08,240
Like the preface or something 
like. 

393
00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:10,120
That, yeah. 
And. 

394
00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:13,600
And he in that he says identity 
woman Kalia. 

395
00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,280
And I read that and I was like, 
Kim, what are you doing? 

396
00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:18,760
Like, that's how I named, 'cause
everybody else has their first 

397
00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:21,520
name, last name, right? 
And he's like, no, no, no, 

398
00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:24,400
you're the identity woman. 
And I was like, well, I guess if

399
00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:29,440
Kim Cameron's going to say that 
and refer to me that way, I'll 

400
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:31,440
just go with it. 
And it's kind of stuck ever 

401
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,040
since. 
I mean, it's hard to top being 

402
00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:37,880
bequeathed that by Kim Cameron. 
Definitely one of the giants in 

403
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:41,040
the industry. 
So I I I would run with it, 

404
00:22:41,360 --> 00:22:44,800
that's for sure. 
You also have this identity 

405
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,400
woman in business. 
What is that about? 

406
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:51,080
Two years ago, well, actually 
during the pandemic, my 

407
00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:54,560
colleague Lucy and I started 
working together on the COVID 

408
00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:59,960
Credentials initiative and we 
LED that work for two years and.

409
00:23:02,120 --> 00:23:05,080
So eventually we're nested 
inside Linux Foundation Public 

410
00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:10,840
Health and had a had a fantastic
working relationship. 

411
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:16,040
And as the pandemic was sort of 
winding down and I was getting 

412
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:19,720
knocks on the door to support 
enterprises figuring out the 

413
00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:23,400
decentralized identity space, I 
said, hey Lucy, do you want to 

414
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:30,000
join me and help help get these?
You know, reports and other 

415
00:23:30,360 --> 00:23:34,360
research materials together to 
serve, you know, the clients 

416
00:23:34,360 --> 00:23:37,080
that were showing up and she 
said yes. 

417
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:43,080
So it's our consulting work 
together really supporting 

418
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:49,720
clarity and discernment in the 
industry and one of our favorite

419
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:56,440
things, favorite types of client
work is working with different 

420
00:23:56,440 --> 00:24:00,120
companies. 
And organizations who would like

421
00:24:00,120 --> 00:24:04,440
to support more discernment 
about key issues, whether it's 

422
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:08,720
wallets, different protocols 
that are emerging and those 

423
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:12,360
reports are publicly available 
but sponsored by different 

424
00:24:12,360 --> 00:24:17,040
companies. 
And and I think they're our goal

425
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:19,600
with our work is to really serve
the development of the 

426
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:24,040
technology and serve the 
community and the, you know, 

427
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:27,240
development of good. 
High performance, open 

428
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:30,960
standards. 
So Kalia, we've got listeners 

429
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:35,000
that kind of span the the whole 
spectrum in terms of their 

430
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,880
experience in the space. 
We call them the I am 

431
00:24:38,120 --> 00:24:41,160
practitioners of the world are 
identity practitioners of the 

432
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:44,760
world. 
So we like to kind of start off 

433
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:49,120
with baseline understanding not 
to kind of blow anybody away. 

434
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:52,800
And I was going to ask you, 
could we just start with, you 

435
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:56,240
know, defining? 
Decentralized identity or as a 

436
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,240
self sovereign identity, are 
they the same thing or 

437
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:03,400
different? 
And you know, how would how do 

438
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:08,480
you explain what you do to 
people who have not even that 

439
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:10,840
baseline of being in the 
identity industry? 

440
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:16,080
Sure. 
So I often start by talking 

441
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:20,920
about people's lived experiences
today that they have in the 

442
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:24,040
digital world, and one of them 
is. 

443
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:28,160
Showing up on a website and 
being invited to like log in 

444
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:30,640
with Google or log in with 
LinkedIn. 

445
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:36,120
I I explained to them that that 
underlying that is a protocol 

446
00:25:36,120 --> 00:25:40,200
that we invented in the first, 
you know 10 years of the life of

447
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:45,360
IAW called Open ID. 
And that that shape of that 

448
00:25:45,360 --> 00:25:50,360
protocol involves Google or 
Facebook or whoever that 

449
00:25:50,360 --> 00:25:53,360
identity provider is seeing 
everywhere you go. 

450
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,400
And they kind of intuitively get
that because they're used to 

451
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,960
that user experience. 
And then I say we're working on 

452
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:05,720
a next generation of protocols 
that changes that, that supports

453
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:10,000
individuals sharing 
authoritative attributed 

454
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:15,120
attributes about themselves with
other parties but without that 

455
00:26:15,120 --> 00:26:18,720
identity provider in the middle 
because we've got a new three 

456
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:23,480
party model of. 
Issuers who issue credentials to

457
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:27,360
a holder that holds them in a 
digital wallet and that holder 

458
00:26:27,360 --> 00:26:32,240
or individual can choose where 
and when to share it with what 

459
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,080
we call a verifier in this 
model. 

460
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:39,680
And that the really different 
thing about this from the 

461
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:44,200
previous paradigm is that the 
issuer and the verifier never 

462
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,240
actually connect or speak to 
each other. 

463
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:52,480
So it it it ends that. 
Sort of disintermediation that 

464
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:56,240
happens with the identity and 
identity provider role and also 

465
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:59,720
you know in terms of like 
addressing key challenges that 

466
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,560
have come up with the the 
previous model, it's it's 

467
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:08,720
surveillance capitalism enabling
right like that identity 

468
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,480
provider is like seeing 
everywhere you go and and 

469
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:15,560
another thing is we do not want 
in western liberal democracies 

470
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:18,000
that identity provider to be our
government. 

471
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:22,960
But at the same time, there's 
more and more need to prove real

472
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,120
attributes about yourself from 
authoritative sources like 

473
00:27:26,120 --> 00:27:28,800
governments. 
Whether it's like to open up a 

474
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:36,080
bank account, to buy a plane 
ticket to, you know, prove prove

475
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:40,160
that you're the right age to 
watch adult content or buy an 

476
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:44,480
alcoholic drink like these are 
all reasons that. 

477
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,320
Attributes from authoritative 
sources matter, and that those 

478
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:53,520
authoritative sources may not be
good entities to see all of your

479
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:57,160
transactions. 
And so this, this new sort of 

480
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:02,160
paradigm is it's made possible 
by this decentralized identity 

481
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,560
technology or three party model.
I love the three party model 

482
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:09,800
because it makes me think of an 
example of OK, so I get a 

483
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,760
credential issued by the 
government. 

484
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:19,280
So they're the issuer and then 
the relying party might be the 

485
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,360
liquor store. 
I don't want the government to 

486
00:28:22,360 --> 00:28:24,480
know. 
Oh, Jim goes to the liquor store

487
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:30,080
a lot because too much. 
Well, you know, if it gets out 

488
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:32,720
of control, I don't want the 
government to know that. 

489
00:28:33,360 --> 00:28:33,840
No. 
Yeah. 

490
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,520
Although is that? 
Am I on the right track with 

491
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:38,720
that? 
You are on the right track. 

492
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,240
Definitely right. 
It's none of their business 

493
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,000
where you use the credential, 
just like. 

494
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:48,000
You know, it also mimics our 
paper based system today 

495
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:51,400
architecturally, right? 
Like the paper in your wallet 

496
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:55,600
that you use to do that proofing
today does not ping the 

497
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,760
government every time you pull 
it out of your wallet and show 

498
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:03,080
it to somebody, right. 
So I actually have a paper 

499
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:07,440
called Seeing Self Sovereign 
Identity in historical context. 

500
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:10,680
That basically makes this case 
and says look, we have this 

501
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,640
history of paper based 
documentation in the West that's

502
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:18,520
about 500 years old and we have 
computer technology that's about

503
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:21,720
7 years old. 
And until SSI the two 

504
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:25,200
architectures didn't actually 
look, didn't echo each other 

505
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:29,400
that the, you know, the phone 
home model of the computer was 

506
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:33,720
not in alignment with the paper 
based architectures that we've 

507
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:38,400
had working in our. 
In our societies, for hundreds 

508
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:40,880
of years, I'm going. 
To ask you a question I think 

509
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:44,760
makes sense. 
So where does the term self 

510
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:46,680
sovereign come from? 
Because it's not like you're 

511
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:48,520
issuing your own identity. 
Right. 

512
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:51,920
And I think this is, you know, 
we can, you can find lots of 

513
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:56,200
philosophical debates about the 
meaning of this term and and 

514
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,600
what its implications are. 
And and some people will say 

515
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,440
like, yeah, that what you just 
said, like you aren't issuing 

516
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:06,520
your own credentials in fact. 
You know there is value to self 

517
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,320
assertion of information and 
this technology. 

518
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,480
You can issue your own 
credentials to yourself about 

519
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:15,200
things you care about and other 
people might find relevant. 

520
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,160
Like your favorite color is blue
and your shoe size is 10. 

521
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:24,160
Or you know, stuff that is fine,
but things that really matter. 

522
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:29,360
It matters what other people 
say, but there isn't 11. 

523
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,640
Authoritative source of all 
truths in the world and that's 

524
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:36,400
part of what the SSI and you 
know, the decentralized part is 

525
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:41,200
about is really how do you have,
how is the individual the locus 

526
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:47,680
of control for this system and 
able to manage who can see what 

527
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:54,160
and when and how do you also 
give the individual. 

528
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:59,320
Almost their own technological 
base from which to do those 

529
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:02,400
interactions and that led in 
this case is the wallet, whether

530
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,640
it's on your phone or in the 
cloud, is that until now you 

531
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:10,200
didn't have your own kind of 
domain of self-control about how

532
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:12,960
you were managing that if you 
were always at the affect of an 

533
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:15,840
identity provider and they were 
really in charge. 

534
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:19,880
Another thing about our podcast 
is that we reach an audience 

535
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:24,120
outside of. 
North America, so 40% of our 

536
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:28,360
listeners are outside the United
States, not even just like, oh 

537
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,520
that you know, most of us are in
Canada, most people all over the

538
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:34,360
world. 
So I think we can end up taking 

539
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:39,400
a very, you know, North America,
focus on the podcast and think 

540
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:43,160
about some of these things. 
But from my understanding there 

541
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:46,720
are some other countries, 
Estonia for example, that has 

542
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,800
gotten a lot further along than 
the USA for example. 

543
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:54,480
And so I'm wondering why 
couldn't USA kind of follow that

544
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:57,360
Estonia model? 
Sure. 

545
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:01,200
I mean, this is a fantastic 
question and one I wish people 

546
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:05,200
would ask more often. 
I think countries like Estonia 

547
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,840
and Singapore have done 
remarkable work, but they also 

548
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:12,400
have certain features that mean 
what they did in those contexts 

549
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,840
is not scalable outside of them.
So they're both incredibly 

550
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:19,320
small. 
Geographies and numbers of 

551
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:21,640
people. 
Estonia is about 1.5 million, 

552
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:25,840
Singapore's 4 million and 
they're very high trust 

553
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:28,760
societies with strong Government
Accountability. 

554
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,560
And there is sort of 1 
jurisdiction. 

555
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:38,720
There isn't multiple levels of 
government with, you know, a 

556
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,800
federal government, state 
government. 

557
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,480
In the United States, you've got
county level government and city

558
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:47,560
level government. 
So that's four levels of 

559
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,240
government. 
In the United States, you have 

560
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:56,000
over 5000 jurisdictions that 
issue birth certificates at the 

561
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:58,720
county level, right. 
So that's already like super 

562
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:04,280
decentralized, right. 
So we need to think about how 

563
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,720
the complexities of federal 
systems. 

564
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:13,120
Cannot be held or managed in the
same way that you manage, almost

565
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:17,920
like city States and their 
capacity to issue their 

566
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,240
citizens. 
A simple identity that can be 

567
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,680
used many places within that 
jurisdiction. 

568
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:27,280
And Estonia, in fact, actually 
has a system where, with citizen

569
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:31,320
transparency and accountability,
all of the major databases are 

570
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:35,960
actually linked to each other. 
And people are have the data 

571
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:39,960
moved from one database to 
another when they need it to 

572
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:41,920
interact with a new part of 
government. 

573
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:45,280
And that would just be 
completely unfeasible at the 

574
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:47,400
scale of a country like the 
United States. 

575
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:51,000
Could you manage every every 
government database at every 

576
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,320
level of government being 
somehow linked to each other? 

577
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:58,800
It would be a security, privacy,
accountability nightmare. 

578
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:04,840
And that the way to scale. 
Information sharing amongst 

579
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:09,120
entities that people are 
interacting with is really with 

580
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:12,840
themselves as the pivot point 
where they can take a record or 

581
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:16,080
information from one service or 
system they're interacting with,

582
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,120
hold it, have a 
cryptographically signed by that

583
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:22,320
entity so it's it's trusted from
the originating service provider

584
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,280
and then they can share it with 
who, who they choose to and 

585
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:27,159
when. 
When you think about government,

586
00:34:27,159 --> 00:34:29,560
one of the challenges that they 
face is that it has to be 

587
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:34,679
accessible by everybody. 
And I just think about the 

588
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,760
person who uses the exam, my 
poor dad, trying to figure out 

589
00:34:39,199 --> 00:34:42,719
how to use this stuff. 
So I think there probably has to

590
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:45,880
be some kind of, you know, I 
would imagine that's one of the 

591
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:49,480
challenges is people who either 
don't have access to the 

592
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:53,080
technology or have no interest 
in, you know, changing at this 

593
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:55,280
point in their life. 
What are some of these 

594
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,320
challenges? 
Yeah, I think those are 

595
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,880
challenges, but I think. 
They're also addressable, right?

596
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:05,400
There's a lot of conversations 
about guardianship models so 

597
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:11,200
that you, Jim, can be a steward 
of your father's identity in 

598
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:13,320
interacting with certain 
systems. 

599
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:17,000
Or you know, parents are going 
to be the stewards of their 

600
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:20,040
children's identities, right 
until they're of the age they 

601
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:24,320
can manage it themselves. 
And I think you're also going to

602
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:28,040
see. 
Like service providers show up, 

603
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:33,040
like I don't manage my money, I 
hire a bank to do it right. 

604
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:39,440
Like there is they are experts 
at that particular thing and we 

605
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:45,120
just haven't progressed far 
enough to see that happen yet. 

606
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:48,760
But I think we will, because 
it's really critical to have 

607
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:53,440
service providers that have a 
fiduciary duty to the people. 

608
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:57,480
Whose identity information 
they're stewarding and we don't 

609
00:35:57,720 --> 00:35:59,880
right now. 
Everything you share with the 

610
00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:03,040
service provider is sort of 
owned by them and they can do 

611
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:06,200
what they want with it. 
Now that's that's a really great

612
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:11,280
idea around the the stewardship 
model or the guardianship model,

613
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:14,360
I'm sorry. 
It seems like that potentially 

614
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:16,880
could solve the issue. 
Of course, that probably makes 

615
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,600
the data model much more 
complex. 

616
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,520
I can just imagine, you know, 
bring this. 

617
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:28,560
Back to the good old USA and 
kind of where we have states, 

618
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:35,080
where my mind goes is around the
mobile driver's license 

619
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:38,040
initiative. 
Is is that a good example of 

620
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:41,440
self sovereign identity? 
Is that am I thinking about this

621
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:43,280
right or is that something 
totally different? 

622
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:48,120
Yeah, so that's one of the 
standards. 

623
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:58,400
The ISO MDL 18O13-5 standard is 
is an example of the the kind of

624
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:01,200
architecture. 
One of the challenges with that 

625
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:06,600
that standard is that it has an 
optional phone home option which

626
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:10,360
many people aren't necessarily 
tracking, but some states are 

627
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:13,480
using that so. 
When you get pulled over by the 

628
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:18,560
side of the road, you share a 
token with, you know whoever's 

629
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:22,160
stopping you and they take that 
token and they go get your 

630
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,040
information from the state 
database. 

631
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:29,240
And I've from the beginning 
said, look, we shouldn't be even

632
00:37:29,240 --> 00:37:33,320
creating a protocol that has a 
phone home architecture because 

633
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:40,000
we have confidence and faith in 
our governments here in the 

634
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,840
Liberal West, but. 
This is going to be used by 

635
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:46,560
governments all over the world. 
The good thing is, is that 

636
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:50,600
there's more sort of scrutiny 
and awareness of the protocols 

637
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:55,880
and hopefully that will help 
better choices being made. 

638
00:37:55,880 --> 00:38:00,480
The ACLU actually published a 
really great report sharing some

639
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:04,080
of their concerns about these 
optional features in that 

640
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:07,280
architecture. 
But the Verifiable Credentials 

641
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:11,240
Standard, which was, you know 
came out of the community around

642
00:38:11,240 --> 00:38:15,280
IIW and the Credentials 
Community Group, with the W3C 

643
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:17,600
and the Decentralized and the 
Foundation. 

644
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:20,040
There's a lot of different 
forums where the core standards 

645
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:23,880
are being worked on. 
Doesn't have that architecture 

646
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:28,280
at all, partly because we've 
always been very concerned about

647
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:36,240
how people are empowered and. 
Have have the control that makes

648
00:38:36,240 --> 00:38:38,120
sense. 
I think that's the keyword 

649
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:40,160
control, right. 
How do you manage your own data?

650
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:43,920
And I think some of this is, 
where are you going to manage 

651
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:45,240
this data? 
How you gonna store it? 

652
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:48,000
You wrote a blog article 
recently on Medium and we'll 

653
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:50,880
have a link in our show note 
about this as well called 

654
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:52,880
Exploring Approaches to Digital 
Wallets. 

655
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:56,680
I'll put a link in our show 
notes, but for people who 

656
00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:59,080
haven't read it, I guess what's 
the take away from that? 

657
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:04,360
Because I feel like we're in a 
risk area of fragmentation when 

658
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:07,120
it comes to wallets. 
Are we gonna have one wallet? 

659
00:39:07,240 --> 00:39:09,120
Through them all? 
Or is it gonna be like a key 

660
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:12,240
chain where I look like the key 
master for the matrix and I have

661
00:39:12,240 --> 00:39:15,440
like 80 million keys on it and 
that's each of those Might be a 

662
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:17,200
wallet. 
I'm concerned. 

663
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:19,800
Right. 
Yeah. 

664
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:24,680
I mean it's a place of much 
market activity and we wrote 

665
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:28,560
this report we we spoke to six 
different experts around the 

666
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:34,160
world. 
And we we, we came up with some 

667
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:36,960
key characteristics about 
wallets. 

668
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:42,680
One is that they're sort of, 
they need to be almost like 

669
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:44,600
invisible. 
Like you shouldn't be thinking a

670
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,240
lot about the wallet. 
It should be a tool to help you 

671
00:39:47,240 --> 00:39:53,800
accomplish your goals. 
That we need to be mindful of 

672
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:57,520
inclusivity and how these work 
for a broad range of people. 

673
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:02,760
Portability. 
How can you move from one wallet

674
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:07,960
to another and not get locked in
interoperability? 

675
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:12,080
Like, can your wallet work in a 
variety of contexts? 

676
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:17,160
Since we still have, and I think
we'll have many, many, Not many.

677
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:21,680
Not like, not like. 30 or 40, 
but we're going to have a small 

678
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:25,680
number under 10, hopefully 
different formats that are 

679
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:28,560
coming out of different 
industries for different reasons

680
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:32,240
and we need to get it all to 
work together so consumers 

681
00:40:32,240 --> 00:40:35,160
aren't going and end user 
experience. 

682
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:41,920
And I think collaboration is 
really the key to solving these 

683
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:45,960
wallet challenges right now 
because it's a core piece of 

684
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:52,160
infrastructure that everybody 
needs and needs to work really 

685
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:56,640
well and isn't isn't where 
you're going to make your money.

686
00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:01,320
And whatever your business is, 
it's going to involve hopefully 

687
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:05,320
interactions that leverage the 
information in a wallet or if 

688
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:08,440
you're in the service provider 
or software business, like 

689
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:11,680
helping businesses connect and 
use the tools. 

690
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:14,600
Much like in the early web, 
people made money because they 

691
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:17,960
were helping people make 
websites with HTML, not because 

692
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:22,840
they owned HTML, right Like and 
I think in terms of critical 

693
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:25,880
issues and we didn't really get 
into this into the report, but 

694
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:29,160
it's definitely circulating in 
the communities right now is 

695
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:34,280
really key control inflection 
points. 

696
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:39,520
So there is a term that's really
about one of these inflections 

697
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:45,320
points called wallet invocation.
So if we have a plurality of 

698
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:49,640
wallets in the world, if I as a 
consumer have the right to 

699
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:56,840
choose which software provider I
trust to build and and you know 

700
00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:00,760
build and and and be the 
software that my wallet runs, 

701
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:06,400
how do when I interact with 
other tools and services, do I 

702
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:10,360
get them to pick the right 
wallet on my phone if I have 

703
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:12,800
more than one of it to deposit a
credential in? 

704
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:15,880
And when I want to share a 
credential, how do I connect the

705
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:19,360
right wallet with the credential
I want in it to that service? 

706
00:42:19,720 --> 00:42:25,200
And that protocol is one that we
have to push really hard right 

707
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:28,520
now to make sure it comes into 
being because otherwise we could

708
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:31,640
end up in a world where the 
platform providers are like, oh 

709
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:33,440
don't worry, let us take care of
it. 

710
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:36,280
And. 
And then the only option if 

711
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:40,240
you're on an iPhone will be your
Apple Wallet and potentially and

712
00:42:40,240 --> 00:42:42,880
Google, although Google's been 
much more clear that they're 

713
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:48,720
more aligned with having a 
plurality of wallets. 

714
00:42:48,720 --> 00:42:51,120
But you could still end up in a 
world where the platform 

715
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:53,160
providers are the deciders of 
the wallets. 

716
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:56,080
And and I don't think we want 
that, just like we didn't want 

717
00:42:56,560 --> 00:43:01,720
the operating systems to be the 
decider of which browser we 

718
00:43:01,720 --> 00:43:03,600
would use. 
Aydo is going through a little 

719
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:07,000
bit with this right now with 
passkeys and sort of you know, 

720
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:11,040
being associated with a platform
and I think now we get into this

721
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:12,200
areas. 
OK, well how do I make my 

722
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:15,680
passkeys portable to move from 
one platform to another, which I

723
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:17,800
think it's the logical next step
if we're gonna get there. 

724
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:22,360
I just, I'm, I'm just concerned 
about here we are again with you

725
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:24,760
know 80 million wallets and 
some. 

726
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:28,040
Garbage looking Oauth prompt. 
It's like, oh, which of your 80 

727
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:30,440
million wallets would you like 
to select to connect to this 

728
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:32,440
service? 
Like that's just not going to 

729
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:33,800
work. 
That's not user friendly at all.

730
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:38,120
Well, that's what IIW is for. 
I mean we had extensive 

731
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:42,920
conversations over the, you 
know, I went I, I I saw them 

732
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:45,160
happen. 
I wasn't actively participating 

733
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:48,400
in them, but key people from 
across the industry trying to 

734
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:52,680
figure out how to solve this 
challenge in a way that works. 

735
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:55,960
And I think we need to put 
significant, just like Fido put 

736
00:43:55,960 --> 00:44:01,240
significant user experience, 
attention, resources and efforts

737
00:44:01,240 --> 00:44:05,920
into getting their UX right, the
decentralized identity digital 

738
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:08,760
wallet folks need to do 
something similar in the next 

739
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:10,120
year. 
Well, there's certainly a lot of

740
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:12,560
smart people working on it, much
smarter than I am, so I will 

741
00:44:13,720 --> 00:44:17,760
hope and support those efforts. 
I gotta ask, is there 

742
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:20,880
competition between like 
decentralized identity 

743
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:22,440
standards? 
Like how does this work behind 

744
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:26,000
the scenes where maybe people 
have different ideas? 

745
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:30,160
Or is there like, OK, we'll take
the best of this standard and 

746
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:32,720
then bring it over to this other
standard and form like the Uber 

747
00:44:32,720 --> 00:44:35,120
standard? 
Is that standard supposed to be 

748
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:38,240
global or is it meant to be, 
Well, this is the US standard 

749
00:44:38,240 --> 00:44:41,040
versus the Canadian standard 
versus the Indian standard. 

750
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:44,800
How do you see that? 
This is a great question. 

751
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:51,320
In fact the last report Lucy and
I wrote was focused on standards

752
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:54,800
based digital credentials and 
the different formats that are 

753
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:59,400
are currently in market. 
I think one of the challenges is

754
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:04,080
the real world in the sense that
we have incredibly high 

755
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:07,320
ambitions and ideals for what 
the protocols could do. 

756
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:11,840
Selective disclosures, EKP like 
amazingness, right. 

757
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:16,720
But then it's like, Oh well the 
algorithms to do those things 

758
00:45:16,720 --> 00:45:20,520
are are new. 
They haven't necessarily been 

759
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:25,360
vetted and oh, we have hardware 
that has certain algorithms 

760
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:29,720
connected to key management 
there and those aren't really 

761
00:45:29,720 --> 00:45:32,640
compatible with the fun new 
interesting selective 

762
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:36,800
disclosure, right. 
So there's been a real kind of, 

763
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:40,840
I don't want to call it a wall, 
but sort of like, oh, reality 

764
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:45,640
intervention saying like if you 
want to support credentials 

765
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:48,640
being anchored to a particular 
phone, which governments. 

766
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:52,720
We can have debates about this. 
I'm sure you can have people on 

767
00:45:52,720 --> 00:45:57,960
and talking about these 
trade-offs, but for for now, the

768
00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:03,000
government folks who are talking
about issuing anchor core 

769
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:05,760
credentials in Europe is sort of
a national ID card. 

770
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:07,800
In the United States, it's 
something like a driver's 

771
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:12,080
license to a phone. 
They want to know that you can't

772
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:15,400
extract that credential and move
it to another phone. 

773
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:20,600
Well, in order to do that key 
binding onto the device, the 

774
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:24,360
cryptography is whatever is in 
the phone which is not capable 

775
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:28,200
of doing the type of signatures 
that the selective disclosure, 

776
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:35,440
the algorithms do, right. 
So there's been a lot of 

777
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:39,040
discernment and gnashing about 
how do we ship product in the 

778
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:44,400
coming year and how do we 
support it doing as good a job 

779
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:48,040
as it can and and hopefully in 
the coming years get to those 

780
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:51,600
more advanced you know, features
of selective disclosure and 

781
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:55,240
privacy. 
You know, ZKPS even, but still 

782
00:46:55,240 --> 00:46:57,960
have it anchored to the phone in
a way that governments are have 

783
00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:01,240
confidence is not being moved. 
I don't think that we as a 

784
00:47:01,240 --> 00:47:04,680
community really thought about 
all those things early on when 

785
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:06,720
we were innovating in the 
verifiable credentials 

786
00:47:06,720 --> 00:47:09,960
community. 
But we've certainly been you 

787
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:12,440
know, challenged and pushed by 
folks coming from another 

788
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:18,640
direction, which is the ISOMDL 
protocol work coming out of that

789
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:26,720
much older, more conservative 
SDO that is driven by long 

790
00:47:26,720 --> 00:47:30,320
standing, you know, folks who've
been working on developing 

791
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:34,320
credentials that are issued by 
governments for hundreds of 

792
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:37,200
years and governments 
themselves. 

793
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:41,280
So there's I think a healthy 
kind of interaction between 

794
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:45,840
different protocol development 
communities and their needs in 

795
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:49,160
the marketplace. 
And hopefully in the next, you 

796
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:53,200
know two years, the best of 
these different worlds will 

797
00:47:53,720 --> 00:47:58,360
align more and there will be I, 
I I don't think competition's 

798
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:01,600
gonna be go away back to like, 
you're gonna have a wallet. 

799
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:04,480
It's gonna speak more than one 
protocol, but there'll be a kind

800
00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:08,000
of steady state of good options.
I feel like most things, there's

801
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:11,160
probably some sender compromise 
that needs to come through 

802
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:14,800
because I guess I think about 
this as a bystander. 

803
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:19,760
What good is a protocol or a 
standard if it's not usable in 

804
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:21,520
the real world? 
And the fact is that there are 

805
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:23,240
things that we have to get done 
in the real world. 

806
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:28,080
That will, you know, cause 
consternation amongst different 

807
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:29,960
parties and it's just about 
trying to find the right 

808
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:31,840
balance. 
Is that, is that a healthy way 

809
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:34,400
for me to look at it or is there
another way that I should be 

810
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:37,680
thinking about this? 
Yeah, I mean that's one how 

811
00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:39,440
that's that's one way to look at
it. 

812
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:43,000
I also think like key actors 
have a significant influence on 

813
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:45,360
what will happen and we're 
seeing this right now with the 

814
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:50,360
EU digital identity initiatives 
and their architecture reference

815
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:53,320
framework for wallets where 
they're deciding like which 

816
00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:59,280
versions and which profiles of 
those versions of the protocols 

817
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:05,800
will be required in digital 
wallets that are part of this 

818
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:09,400
sort of EU wide effort. 
All right. 

819
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:11,400
Well, I want to be respectful of
your time, who's been very 

820
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:15,360
generous and speaking with us. 
Today I'm going to shift 

821
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:19,200
completely away from identity, a
different identity for Kalia 

822
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:24,280
Young, that of an athlete. 
The Canadian National team water

823
00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:26,600
polo. 
I can't imagine playing water 

824
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:28,160
polo. 
I I think I would just sink 

825
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:30,680
right to the bottom of the of 
the pool. 

826
00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:35,120
Talk to me about, you know your 
your experiences being part of 

827
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:37,480
the national team. 
Do you have like really cool 

828
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:40,320
water polo moments? 
Is there like, oh, that was 

829
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:43,280
like, you know, awesome. 
Or maybe there's like, maybe a 

830
00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:47,120
not awesome story you've got. 
Yeah. 

831
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:50,280
I mean, I started playing when I
was 10 years old. 

832
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:55,920
I was always drawn to the water.
My name in a Hindu mythology is 

833
00:49:55,920 --> 00:50:00,040
a sea serpent. 
My Canadian parents had no idea 

834
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:02,240
this was the case. 
I learned just after the 

835
00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:04,400
Internet came about. 
And you're like, take your name 

836
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:06,320
and you're like, that's 
interesting. 

837
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:10,360
So I was always like, you know, 
sign me up for swim lessons when

838
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:13,680
I was four years old. 
Joined those, one of the swim 

839
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:19,160
teams at six, joined the more 
competitive swim team later on. 

840
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:23,520
And water polo was free in the 
summer if you were under like 

841
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:27,360
12. 
So mom's like go to water polo 

842
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:33,760
and then we could play water 
polo in the fall and still keep 

843
00:50:33,760 --> 00:50:39,440
our summer swimming status. 
And I just really thrived and 

844
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:42,840
loved it. 
And I happened to be quite tall,

845
00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:46,680
if you've met me. 
So I had some like size 

846
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:50,720
advantage. 
And we actually played mixed 

847
00:50:50,720 --> 00:50:54,400
water polo growing up because 
you had to have two girls in the

848
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:59,040
water at the time, all the time 
being the large girl that helped

849
00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:04,640
to and not playing dive. 
And it's hard to describe how 

850
00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:10,000
much it meant to me in terms of 
a place to go where I was 

851
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:19,400
supported, coached good. 
Like, I remember being in 

852
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:23,920
elementary school and just being
like, school sucks, but I've got

853
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:26,880
water on the weekend. 
So, like, let's do that. 

854
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:30,560
And it was really me. 
Like, some people have, like, 

855
00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:33,640
you know, athletic parents. 
I was the athletic kid. 

856
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:36,880
Like, let me play more, please, 
Mom and Dad. 

857
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:40,960
And they're like, OK, so another
fact where I grew up, you know, 

858
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:44,360
sometimes kids are in sports and
they're like competing for their

859
00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:47,200
spot on the travel team when 
they're 10 years old. 

860
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:50,520
We were like begging girls to 
come and play. 

861
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:53,800
So we had enough people just to 
make a team, right? 

862
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:56,400
We're like, OK, we've got eight 
kids, we can go to the 

863
00:51:56,400 --> 00:51:59,720
tournament and like, the Max on 
a team is 14, right? 

864
00:51:59,720 --> 00:52:06,560
Like, So then I tried out for 
the the junior national team and

865
00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:09,960
that was totally trippy because 
I'd never had to try out for a 

866
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:13,840
team of my whole life, right. 
And what? 

867
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:15,520
Was the try out like like what 
did they like? 

868
00:52:15,560 --> 00:52:18,520
Is it play a match? 
Is it like, yeah. 

869
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:23,160
I mean, it's sort of like a 
weekend of really intensive both

870
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:28,640
like, you know, times like swim 
tests and like drills and like 

871
00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:32,080
kind of practice where they're 
like watching everything you do.

872
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:37,480
And it was very hard for me in 
terms of mentally, 'cause I just

873
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:40,480
never done that before. 
And I turned to Western sports 

874
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:43,880
psychology that wasn't 
particularly helpful. 

875
00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:46,640
And then I turned to some 
Eastern sports psychology and 

876
00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:49,320
that was very helpful. 
It was much more in alignment 

877
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:54,200
with sort of my demeanor in the 
kind of sports psychology where 

878
00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:57,200
you're like, thank you to my 
opponent for helping me run 

879
00:52:57,200 --> 00:53:01,720
faster on the marathon. 
Like I'm like there's a 

880
00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:06,360
different kind of, you know, not
like beat them like or whatever,

881
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:08,000
you know, Western sports 
psychology. 

882
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:12,600
It's like, well, yeah, and I 
managed to make that junior 

883
00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:19,640
national team I I that led me to
play water pool at UC Berkeley. 

884
00:53:19,640 --> 00:53:24,240
I was recruited after I sent 
letters to different teams 

885
00:53:24,240 --> 00:53:28,920
saying I'm here in Canada 
playing for the junior national 

886
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:30,120
team. 
I'm interested. 

887
00:53:30,120 --> 00:53:35,520
I was recruited by UC Berkeley's
new coach in May of I Won't Say 

888
00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:37,400
the Year. 
Can we bleep it out, Jeff? 

889
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:41,080
Can we bleep it out like I was 
recruited to Cal the first year 

890
00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:45,680
they had a women's varsity team 
and I still hold the record for 

891
00:53:45,680 --> 00:53:49,720
a leading scorer as most number 
of goals scored as a freshman. 

892
00:53:49,720 --> 00:53:53,680
Wow. 
And I ended my national team 

893
00:53:53,680 --> 00:53:57,120
career winning a gold medal at 
Pan American Games. 

894
00:53:57,840 --> 00:54:03,520
That is super cool when you 
watch, I guess water polo Now is

895
00:54:03,520 --> 00:54:05,880
it like me in the restaurant 
business where I used to be a 

896
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:08,760
server and I can, I know what's 
going on behind the scenes? 

897
00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:12,360
Like, do you watch technique? 
Do you watch strategies? 

898
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:15,200
Like, I have no idea. 
I'm just like, I don't know how 

899
00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:17,160
these people do it. 
Like what should I be looking 

900
00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:20,640
for? 
Is like a I actually went back 

901
00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:25,320
and started playing with the 
local, mostly men's masters 

902
00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:28,760
pickup game. 
I stopped last January partly 

903
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:32,760
because practice was too late at
night and I had to keep waking 

904
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:35,280
up at 6:30 in the morning for 
work calls. 

905
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:41,800
I was like work swamp, but I 
think too. 

906
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:44,320
The other thing that's been 
frustrating for me is they keep 

907
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:47,880
changing the rules. 
So the the, the rules and the 

908
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:55,120
game that I played growing up 
has shifted and I kind of like, 

909
00:54:55,120 --> 00:54:57,480
could you just leave the room 
because they keep wanting to 

910
00:54:57,480 --> 00:55:02,080
make the game more exciting for 
European television audiences 

911
00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:04,720
like. 
What's an example like what 

912
00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:07,000
rule? 
Has changed that is like that 

913
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:14,680
you can now if you get fouled 
outside 5 meters you can take a 

914
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:17,840
shot. 
They've been, they've changed 

915
00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:22,200
how they call fowls in the 
center forward position to be 

916
00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:25,880
much more aggressive on leading 
to kick outs. 

917
00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:31,480
It's sort of like, yeah, but I 
love watching water polo. 

918
00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:35,560
And in fact, I'm super excited 
about what we're seeing with 

919
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:41,000
some of the new, you know, like 
this year I've tuned into 

920
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:44,280
international matches that are 
being broadcast online. 

921
00:55:44,600 --> 00:55:48,800
You know, there's lots of people
who play esoteric sports who 

922
00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:51,560
would love to watch their sport 
if only they could. 

923
00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:54,960
And now they can, right, 'cause 
I, you know, I didn't play 

924
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:59,360
baseball, football, basketball, 
are those. 

925
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:00,880
There's four of them. 
Hockey. 

926
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:03,120
Hockey. 
Yeah, no. 

927
00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:07,440
None of them hockey. 
I grew up in Vancouver. 

928
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:11,240
There's no ice here. 
Jim, could you play water polo? 

929
00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:14,680
I mean, you're tall. 
I've played like modified water 

930
00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:18,360
polo where it's like standing 
level water and I love it. 

931
00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:22,440
I mean, I think the form of the 
game is great, but being in deep

932
00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:27,080
water and treading water for a 
long period of time is very, 

933
00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:30,160
very difficult. 
If you've never done it, like 

934
00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:33,440
don't take it for granted. 
So Khalid, I have a ton of 

935
00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:36,240
respect that you can like you 
just do that part. 

936
00:56:36,240 --> 00:56:41,280
I'm impressed by but I played. 
Baseball growing up and a lot of

937
00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:45,680
what Kalia said, like, resonated
with me there, you know? 

938
00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:49,240
Well, one thought I had was just
kind of watching the game on TV 

939
00:56:49,240 --> 00:56:52,360
Now, like, I'm so impressed by 
some of the athletes. 

940
00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:56,560
And I realized, like, no matter 
what I did in my life, I would 

941
00:56:56,560 --> 00:56:59,800
never be like that person. 
You know, I played third base. 

942
00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:02,120
I watch. 
I remember having this thought 

943
00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:07,120
like 10-15 years ago about Chris
Bryant, who was the 3rd baseman 

944
00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:09,560
for the Cubs. 
And he made some play. 

945
00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:12,400
And I was like, yeah, I I never 
could have done that no matter 

946
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:16,680
what I did in my life. 
But also there's the sport that 

947
00:57:17,120 --> 00:57:20,360
they're constantly changing the 
rules now they do a pitch clock 

948
00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:23,280
and some various things like 
that. 

949
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:27,960
And it's my feeling is it's like
they're very focused on drawing 

950
00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:30,040
in. 
People who don't like baseball 

951
00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:35,000
just start liking baseball. 
And in my experience, good luck 

952
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:37,000
with that one of people who 
don't like baseball. 

953
00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:39,920
We'll never like baseball. 
Case in point. 

954
00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:41,800
I just don't get it. 
I mean, I get it. 

955
00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:42,920
I understand. 
I just, it has. 

956
00:57:42,920 --> 00:57:46,080
I have zero interest in 
baseball. 

957
00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:48,640
I don't know what it is. 
It's not. 

958
00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:50,240
I mean, I'm AI guess I'm a Cubs 
fan. 

959
00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:51,800
It was nice to see them finally 
win something. 

960
00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:54,760
But, you know, this goes back to
the first time Jim and I met. 

961
00:57:54,760 --> 00:57:56,320
The first thing he said to me 
is, hey, do you like baseball? 

962
00:57:56,320 --> 00:57:59,200
And I said no. 
And he walked away from me like 

963
00:57:59,200 --> 00:58:01,000
I, you know, I just, it's just 
not my thing. 

964
00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:02,680
I'm an NFL person. 
I like football. 

965
00:58:02,680 --> 00:58:06,080
I mean, I grew up playing 
basketball, soccer, you know, 

966
00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:08,600
football. 
I did Taekwondo and stuff like 

967
00:58:08,600 --> 00:58:10,920
that. 
I even did gymnastics, did 

968
00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:13,240
swimming and stuff like that. 
Was just kind of more of a 

969
00:58:13,240 --> 00:58:15,920
general purpose athlete than 
like a specialist in anything. 

970
00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:19,160
But there are certain things 
that I gravitate to. 

971
00:58:19,160 --> 00:58:23,520
Baseball is is not one of them. 
All right, we've been talking 

972
00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:26,400
for over an hour here. 
Kalia, you've been so generous 

973
00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:29,400
with your time. 
We're gonna have AI think this 

974
00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:31,520
might be a record for the number
of links that we'll have in our 

975
00:58:31,520 --> 00:58:34,040
show notes. 
We'll have a spot where you can 

976
00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:37,640
connect with Kalia on LinkedIn. 
You can ask her questions. 

977
00:58:38,480 --> 00:58:41,640
We'll have a link to the blog 
that you wrote exploring 

978
00:58:41,800 --> 00:58:44,640
approaches to digital wallets, 
of course, the link to 

979
00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:47,120
identitywoman.net, so be able to
check that out, what you're 

980
00:58:47,120 --> 00:58:50,680
working on, the links to your 
books, the Identisphere 

981
00:58:50,680 --> 00:58:54,360
newsletter, the Internet 
Identity Workshop or IW. 

982
00:58:55,040 --> 00:58:57,760
Jim and I will have a link for 
the Identiverse conference, 

983
00:58:57,760 --> 00:58:59,800
things that are coming up. 
There's the one in New York City

984
00:58:59,800 --> 00:59:02,800
on December 1st, and then on the
following week there's one in 

985
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:04,880
Chicago, albeit the New York 
City one. 

986
00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:08,160
Not going to be at the Chicago 
one, so hopefully people come 

987
00:59:08,160 --> 00:59:09,800
and check that out. 
Of course, you know, you can 

988
00:59:09,800 --> 00:59:11,120
always connect with Jim and I on
LinkedIn. 

989
00:59:11,120 --> 00:59:13,720
That's where we get a lot of 
good conversations and stuff 

990
00:59:13,720 --> 00:59:17,400
going like that. 
But yeah, well I have one more 

991
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:19,760
thing that seems like it would 
be great to share with your 

992
00:59:19,760 --> 00:59:26,720
listeners is that we've we've 
actually this year expanded our 

993
00:59:26,720 --> 00:59:29,920
IIW universe to include regional
events. 

994
00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:33,160
So we have a regional event in 
Europe called the Digital 

995
00:59:33,160 --> 00:59:36,560
Identity on Conference Europe 
that's happening in June and 

996
00:59:36,560 --> 00:59:42,400
we're exploring a regional event
in South Africa in March. 

997
00:59:42,600 --> 00:59:49,160
And we're exploring a, we did 
this last year in in the spring,

998
00:59:49,160 --> 00:59:53,560
but it'll probably be in the 
fall, in 2024 in AIPAC in 

999
00:59:53,560 --> 00:59:55,800
Thailand. 
And those use the exact same 

1000
00:59:55,800 --> 00:59:58,880
format that we have at IW. 
So it's an opportunity for the 

1001
00:59:58,920 --> 01:00:01,920
your global listeners to 
potentially connect and not just

1002
01:00:01,920 --> 01:00:05,280
have to get to North America to 
participate? 

1003
01:00:05,360 --> 01:00:06,960
Yeah, that's so cool. 
I mean, the world doesn't. 

1004
01:00:06,960 --> 01:00:09,640
I mean, it seems like sometimes 
the world revolves around stuff 

1005
01:00:09,640 --> 01:00:11,120
going to the US, but not 
necessarily. 

1006
01:00:11,120 --> 01:00:13,480
Shouldn't I see some things on 
the website 

1007
01:00:13,760 --> 01:00:17,760
internetidentityworkshop.com 
ethics referencing the April, 

1008
01:00:18,120 --> 01:00:19,600
the spring and the fall. 
Those are the ones you're 

1009
01:00:19,600 --> 01:00:21,000
talking about. 
Where where do people go to get 

1010
01:00:21,000 --> 01:00:22,560
more information at? 
Is that just on the website? 

1011
01:00:23,800 --> 01:00:27,240
Yeah. 
And then next week, probably by 

1012
01:00:27,240 --> 01:00:29,840
the time most folks listen, 
we're working on getting a 

1013
01:00:29,840 --> 01:00:32,800
regional events page up that 
will have more information. 

1014
01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:35,800
Very cool. 
That's good information. 

1015
01:00:35,800 --> 01:00:37,120
So hopefully people can check 
that out. 

1016
01:00:37,440 --> 01:00:40,400
And yeah, I think that's a good 
spot where we can leave it for 

1017
01:00:40,400 --> 01:00:42,840
this week. 
Jim and I, we're on the web, 

1018
01:00:42,880 --> 01:00:49,080
idscpodcast.com on Twitter at 
IDSC podcasts, at Mastodon or 

1019
01:00:49,080 --> 01:00:53,120
no, we're on Mastodon at IDC 
podcast at Infosex dot Exchange.

1020
01:00:53,640 --> 01:00:56,200
I still hate the way that that 
name works, but it is what it 

1021
01:00:56,200 --> 01:00:58,760
is. 
Thanks everyone for listening 

1022
01:00:59,080 --> 01:01:01,000
and we'll go and talk the other 
one in the next one. 

1023
01:01:02,560 --> 01:01:05,640
You've been listening to 
Identity at the Center. 

1024
01:01:05,960 --> 01:01:10,040
We hope you've enjoyed the show.
Make sure to like, rate and 

1025
01:01:10,040 --> 01:01:13,680
review and we'll be back soon. 
But in the meantime, hit the 

1026
01:01:13,680 --> 01:01:17,800
website at 
identity@thecenter.com and find 

1027
01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:25,240
us on Twitter at IDAC Podcast. 
See you next time on identity at

1028
01:01:25,240 --> 01:01:26,240
the center.