1 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:10,880 This is identity at the center. Welcome to the Identity of the 2 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:12,440 Center podcast. I'm Jeff, and that's Jim. 3 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:14,040 Hey, Jim. Hey, Jeff, how are you? 4 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:16,720 Not so bad yourself. Fantastic here at the Gartner I 5 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:22,200 am Summit 2025 in Grapevine, TX. Yeah, so I refrained from 6 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:24,600 mentioning the cowboy hat. I did that already a couple 7 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:26,920 times, but here I am mentioning it again. 8 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:30,480 Yeah, well, hey, what I'm in Texas do as the Texans do. 9 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:32,520 Yeah, so we've got a special 1 today. 10 00:00:32,759 --> 00:00:35,560 We are doing a sponsored episode with our friends over at Red 11 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:37,480 Block. So we're going to get right into 12 00:00:37,480 --> 00:00:38,920 a second. But you want to learn about Red 13 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:41,120 Block? It's Red Block dot AI slash 14 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:42,800 IDAC. We'll have links in our show 15 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:45,240 notes for people to check out, but let me go ahead and 16 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:46,960 introduce your CEO, Indus Kai Tan. 17 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:49,800 Welcome to the show. Well a fantastic day at 18 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:51,680 Grapevine, TX. It's such a beautiful hotel. 19 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:53,840 I I wish my children and my wife was here. 20 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:56,240 There are a lot of children and wives here. 21 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:57,720 I think people are taking advantage of sort of like 22 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:00,200 there's a Christmas kind of festive type holiday thing going 23 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:02,280 on here. There's a build-a-bear workshop. 24 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:05,280 So other than identity and access management, there are 25 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:07,640 things for people to do. Kind of odd place to have a 26 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:11,960 conference in the season. Yeah, I think we'll probably be 27 00:01:11,960 --> 00:01:15,200 in Vegas next year, which seems a little more normal for like a 28 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:20,080 conference, but. Vegas is not normal but for a 29 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:21,120 conference. Yeah. 30 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:23,600 So thanks for sponsoring this episode. 31 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:25,280 We're going to learn about Red Block today. 32 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:27,720 One of the things that we always like to find out is for our 33 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:29,520 first time guests, and this is the first time being with us, is 34 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:31,120 a little bit about sort of their identity journey. 35 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:34,120 How do they got into the world of identity or maybe security or 36 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:35,800 maybe both. So let's start there. 37 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:39,240 How did you get into the space of IAM or Digital Identity? 38 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:44,800 Well, I'm a programmer, I'm ACS grad and been dabbling with 39 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:51,320 writing code and most recently I did a startup in mobile security 40 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:53,720 that was like when iPhone 1 came out. 41 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:57,200 And very interestingly, iPhone one would not authenticate 42 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:00,600 against Active Directory. Active Directory, yes, and we 43 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:04,680 built a business enabling organization and employees to 44 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:08,400 access their internal resources. Cloud was not common back then. 45 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:12,640 So their SharePoint and their, you know, files on on network 46 00:02:12,640 --> 00:02:15,520 shares. That's when I came to know, oh 47 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:18,360 this thing called Identity. And then that startup got 48 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:23,360 acquired the Oracle and amongst other things, I was APM for one 49 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:25,880 of the Oracle's Identity product for a period of six months. 50 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:30,120 So I got my exposure in Identity and you know, lo and behold, I'm 51 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:33,240 doing an Identity startup. So you're kind of an identity 52 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:38,080 lifer now you're at Red Block or you started Red Block, or I just 53 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:39,880 have to know. How did you come up with the 54 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:43,480 name? Well the name has multiple 55 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:50,160 layers so November ish of 2023 when I got this idea that hey AI 56 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:53,120 in its post LLM world is going to be multi model. 57 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:58,680 So ChatGPT 3.5 comes out and it makes it very easy to recognize 58 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:02,040 world objects. Not just a picture of a cat, 59 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:05,520 which the AI reasons as cat, or a dog, the AI reasons as dog, 60 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:09,880 but more context, such as if you show AI the picture of a lion 61 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:13,800 and say, Oh yeah, that's a cat family without actually 62 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:17,280 decoding, it's a picture of cat. And then we thought, hey, how 63 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:24,160 about we feed some screenshots of postures for web apps. 64 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:28,280 And lo and behold, it just detects beautifully that, oh, on 65 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:31,760 your Twitter screen, you have, you know, these access profiles 66 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:33,680 that you should not have. And then we started 67 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:37,840 experimenting and we thought, hey, why don't we build a 68 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:43,280 workflow that converts human actions into AI driven flows. 69 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:46,480 And then there was a big popular workflow too. 70 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:50,560 Let's not name them. And they had a blue box for all 71 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:54,400 the flows going into a ticket. So, you know, something happens. 72 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:57,640 And then of course, it goes to an ITSM where a human picks up. 73 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:01,600 And then he said, hey, why don't we change this to a red color 74 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:04,440 and the ticket goes to an AI driven human flow. 75 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:07,960 That's one of the layers of multiple red teaming as an 76 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:10,240 example, but that's one of. The yeah, that's neat. 77 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:16,720 So what is the underserved area or what is the market problem in 78 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:19,200 identity today that you feel is underserved, I think? 79 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:23,080 I'll give you 2 arcs on this, the arc 1. 80 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:27,320 And this is like a market answer, like a top level answers 81 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:32,680 for every dollar in cybersecurity, you know, this $5 82 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:38,760 spent on services, operational, staffing, human labour and just 83 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:41,320 getting things done like manually. 84 00:04:41,840 --> 00:04:45,840 So if you look at the Tam of or the revenues of companies 85 00:04:45,840 --> 00:04:50,560 collectively IN2024220 billion ish last year, cybersecurity 86 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:55,320 across the board, all products sold, sold, guess what the 87 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:59,520 numbers are for services and people enabling those products, 88 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:01,000 it's close to a trillion dollars. 89 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:05,480 Wow. And hate to say this, but there 90 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:09,760 is a laundry list of services companies and vendors and and 91 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:14,120 people that serve this market. If you tease identity smaller 92 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:18,800 section 3040 billion, close to $200 billion spent on services. 93 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:23,640 We thought, hey, how can we turn this into a category where 94 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:28,640 services are now enabled using AI driven software. 95 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:30,920 So that's the market we are going after. 96 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:33,960 It's a bigger arc on the top. But if you look tactically from 97 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:38,160 a buyer's perspective, they have a lot of work that gets stopped 98 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:40,640 by a ServiceNow ticket or a JIRA ticket. 99 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:44,160 So anything that you want to do in IT, automation or identity, 100 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:47,960 at the end of the day, it's a fulfillment job which you and I 101 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:50,040 will get, Hey, John, can you do this? 102 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:51,560 Hey, Jacob, can you fulfill this? 103 00:05:52,840 --> 00:05:57,920 We are essentially routing that ticket to AI and let AI fulfill 104 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:00,400 that task. Instead of a ticket being 105 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:03,200 fulfilled by human, AI fulfills that ticket. 106 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:10,280 So with even with all the new spaces or you know, disciplines 107 00:06:10,280 --> 00:06:14,400 within I am that are starting to kind of sprout up, I still think 108 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:19,280 the traditional approach is IGA access management or privilege 109 00:06:19,280 --> 00:06:23,680 access management. I think though even with good 110 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,920 tools, it's lacking. What do you think? 111 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:32,160 It is lacking because if you look at the scaffold, ultimately 112 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:34,720 it's about do you have enough coverage? 113 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:37,600 Do you have enough visibility into your applications, your 114 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:40,640 identities? If you do not, it doesn't matter 115 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:47,240 whether IMIGA, Pam and now NHI and in future agents, your tasks 116 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:50,440 will not be done, your visibility will not be there. 117 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:54,200 So it doesn't matter whether you you move from one acronym to the 118 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:56,480 other. If you do not know how many apps 119 00:06:56,480 --> 00:07:00,280 you have, what identities are inside those applications and 120 00:07:00,280 --> 00:07:03,480 what entitlements are there, the gap is still there in the 121 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:06,120 market. So you're spending all of this 122 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:12,360 money to solve 10/15/20 percent of the problem where your back 123 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:14,920 door, your front door is closed, but your back door, your side 124 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:18,200 door, your garage door, your trap door for rodents still 125 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:20,880 freely accessible. And you know, that's where we 126 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:22,800 are going after. I think you just touched on a 127 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:26,400 little bit, but I want to talk about what is the urgency that 128 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:29,000 you know from a business perspective, what is the urgency 129 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:32,680 to go after this versus make investments in other areas of 130 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:36,680 identity? So if you look at the last 10 131 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:42,400 years of ransomware attacks or account takeover, so starting 132 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:47,240 from Target 10 years ago to Salesforce customer instance 133 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:49,440 breach of last year, there's so much in news. 134 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:54,440 Each of these companies had all the certifications, all the 135 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:57,520 compliance, all the tools, all the money, the best of the 136 00:07:57,520 --> 00:07:59,400 people. This still got breached. 137 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:05,520 So it basically reflects on us as a community that isn't there 138 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:07,600 something that is not being served. 139 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:12,160 And the gap there is that the urgency that's brewing. 140 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:17,280 If you give it another thought, adversaries are no longer 141 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:19,600 breaching firewalls. They're no longer dropping 142 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:22,440 malware on your laptop. They're simply logging in. 143 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:28,960 So if credentials are the main primary vector, do you have 144 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:32,760 aggregated data of all the identities and the credentials 145 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:35,440 that are probably in the wild all the accounts that are in 146 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:38,799 your systems? So I think the urgency is what 147 00:08:38,799 --> 00:08:40,640 are the apps that are not covered? 148 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:42,400 What are the apps that are not governed? 149 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:47,160 And I hate to say this but Infosec community has a 150 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:50,720 euphemism for this called last mile long tail. 151 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:52,680 As if they don't matter. Great. 152 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:58,640 But they do matter, because if you're sensitive data is in one 153 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:01,440 of those apps and that gets breached, it's a vector to take 154 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:05,360 over your infrastructure. So you talk about this gap, 155 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:06,640 right? You've got these disconnected 156 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:08,200 apps, you know, and you're totally right. 157 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:11,480 You say, hey, let's solve for 80% of the problem, and what do 158 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:14,560 you do with that last 20%? So you talk about governance. 159 00:09:14,560 --> 00:09:17,200 There's a lot of governance tools out there already, right? 160 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:21,760 We've got Pam, we've got IGA. If I'm sitting here with my 161 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:24,920 famous jaded see so hat, it's like, OK, well, why do I need 162 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:28,960 another tool? Like why isn't Pam and IGA good 163 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:30,240 enough? Is it just the way they're 164 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:32,000 approaching it or is this like a new space? 165 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:33,040 Like what are your thoughts on that? 166 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:37,160 Yeah, it's it's a space that already existed. 167 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:43,320 So if I dovetailed my previous part that irrespective of all 168 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:46,560 the tools, all the all the technologies, all the 169 00:09:46,560 --> 00:09:48,560 certification, all the compliance breaches have still 170 00:09:48,560 --> 00:09:50,440 happened. And there's definitely a gap in 171 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:51,840 the market that we're not serving. 172 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:53,520 We're trying to solve the same problem. 173 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:56,480 We're trying to do visibility on the same things that are being 174 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:58,600 visible. We're trying to build a better 175 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:01,440 workflow for the things that we see, but we're not going after 176 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:05,080 the areas that are unseen to us. I'll give you an example. 177 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:09,880 So Okta we know as a, you know, IE governance and access vendor. 178 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:14,920 So they have this product called Okta Integration Network. 8100 179 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:17,160 ish apps are publicly listed there. 180 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:19,920 That means vendors that have come in and you know, put their 181 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:24,760 apps in there. If I tell you less than 5% of 182 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:30,160 those apps have any automation of onboarding, off boarding 183 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:35,360 changes and provisioning. The rest of the 95% are manual. 184 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:39,600 It's wild, Wild West. So John joins your org, he gets 185 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:41,560 access to everything that he wants. 186 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:45,600 When he leaves, his access still lingers. 187 00:10:46,680 --> 00:10:52,680 God forbid if those accounts are on Salesforce on Snowflake and a 188 00:10:52,680 --> 00:10:56,840 credential theft and a spray and pre attack compromises that 189 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:00,560 nobody's paying attention. So it's a newer urgency that's 190 00:11:00,560 --> 00:11:03,200 brewing. Go after the areas that have not 191 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:05,240 been seen. It's like my closet. 192 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:08,600 My wife doesn't want me to open because hey, you don't know, 193 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:10,240 babe, because we don't know what's inside. 194 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:14,520 You got a goddamn open it. So you mentioned another area 195 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:16,520 that is, you know, pretty common, right? 196 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:18,560 You talk about authentication and ID PS kind of getting in 197 00:11:18,560 --> 00:11:23,400 that space of controlling access to resources, where does Red 198 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:29,280 Block fit into sort of like this triangle of opportunity slash 199 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:33,560 sadness that exists between authentication, IGA and Pam? 200 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:36,200 Is red block somewhere in those areas? 201 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,280 Is it something different? Is it a blend like Help me 202 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:40,800 understand, Kind of like the positioning? 203 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:45,560 So if you if you visualize this as a three legged stool, so leg 204 00:11:45,560 --> 00:11:50,040 one is your IMIGA Pam monhumanidity everything else, 205 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:53,440 which is your visibility plane, which is your control plane, 206 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:56,080 which is a workflow engine, which is a policy engine. 207 00:11:56,520 --> 00:12:00,320 And then the second leg is hundreds of micro legs which are 208 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:02,720 the applications. So you have your sales force, 209 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:07,800 your, your Zoom and your Slack and then 5500 internal 210 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:11,760 applications built by your team. So we come in between these two 211 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:18,040 legs and enable flow of data to give you visibility into those 212 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:21,560 1500 and of course a control plane so that you don't have to 213 00:12:21,560 --> 00:12:26,160 file another ticket to take over access for a people who have 214 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:28,840 left or do governance on those apps or change entitlements. 215 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:33,960 So we kind of sit in the middle between the applications and the 216 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:38,280 governance and identity vendors. If I give you a better analogy, 217 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:42,000 think of Red Block as your DoorDash carrier. 218 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:47,800 We'll, we will take the order from you as a consumer, which is 219 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:52,240 your identity tool and then go pick up that order from the 220 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:55,720 restaurant, which is your apps and then without even looking 221 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:58,160 into it and deliver this. And then of course the 222 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:00,120 transaction happened. So kind of come in in the 223 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:01,880 middle. So you got me at the DoorDash 224 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:04,560 because I'm a big fan. But when you said DoorDash, I 225 00:13:04,560 --> 00:13:06,280 started thinking, OK, well, this sounds a little bit like 226 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:09,800 orchestration is you're kind of you're picking up something from 227 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:12,080 one spot and then figuring out where it needs to happen with it 228 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:13,720 and then dropping it somewhere else. 229 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:17,240 Is that fair? Think of this as a last mile 230 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:21,320 execution. Your DoorDash app is the 231 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:23,520 orchestrator. It figures out oh go pick up 232 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:26,000 from restaurant 1, then go pick up from restaurant 2. 233 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:28,200 Combine those two orders. Deliver it to me. 234 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:31,360 So the orchestration engine is your door Dash app. 235 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:35,200 The guy who's fulfilling is the person, the carrier. 236 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:38,400 So we are the carrier. We're picking things up from 237 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:40,800 these individual applications. Hey, give me all the identities, 238 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:44,440 give me all the entitlements and the roles and API keys and 239 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:46,480 credentials and deliver it to me. 240 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:50,200 Boom, package it, give it to you and then say hey go do more 241 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:53,320 tasks and then go do that. So now I'm thinking logistics. 242 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:57,960 Logistics is a great word. So yeah, like, tell me where to 243 00:13:57,960 --> 00:13:59,800 go, tell me what to do. We'll do this for you. 244 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:03,360 You don't worry about you still give me that trigger. 245 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:05,480 So we don't have intelligence of our own. 246 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:08,040 I hate to say this, my team doesn't like it, but we are 247 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:11,160 taking triggers from Sale Point, we're taking tickets from 248 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:13,520 ServiceNow and then doing the job which is supposed to be 249 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:16,960 done, OK. So let me keep my jaded CSO hat 250 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:19,200 on. And you know, this is probably a 251 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,000 question a lot of people know. So what makes Red Block special, 252 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:23,320 right? What do you think it is that 253 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:28,120 makes your product, your service, you know, different 254 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:29,480 from others that are in the marketplace? 255 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:32,600 So this problem existed for a long time. 256 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:36,880 So if you look at the the last mile execution, the automation, 257 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:40,320 you know, our PA vendors tried solving this. 258 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:43,440 You know, if you look at finance as a larger category, you need 259 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,480 to process invoices. So manually it's impossible to 260 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:48,480 aggregate. So you put an RPA bot there, 261 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:54,480 script it and you know, grab the data that colour has been kind 262 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:58,440 of an implemented in identity user degree for user access 263 00:14:58,440 --> 00:14:59,600 review. So you need to aggregate 264 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:04,520 spreadsheets or user data. But RPA is scripted. 265 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,880 It breaks when you know the UI changes. 266 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:10,600 When the list of values simply changes, it breaks. 267 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:13,560 It almost like writing a piece of code that has supposed to be 268 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:16,480 executed. We are more, I haven't used the 269 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:21,480 word AI yet, so we are agentic. So think of us as the way we 270 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:24,280 work behind the scenes is we use computer vision. 271 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:28,800 So the AI looks at the screen visually, just like you and me 272 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:31,440 on the app and say, OK, what do you want me to do? 273 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:34,400 OK, here's the credential login. OK, what's next? 274 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:38,200 Grab the list of users, packages a Jason and give it to me. 275 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:42,240 So we're looking, the AI is looking at the screen and then 276 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:46,080 taking decisions and then extracting the information or 277 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:47,560 taking action and delivering it to you. 278 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:50,960 And that's the differentiates us, the more modern, if you want 279 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:52,320 to call it, there's no word around it. 280 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:55,920 It's kind of being coined agentic process automation. 281 00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:00,000 And yeah, that's where it is. OK, so you've opened up the box 282 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:02,800 of AI and I've been thinking about, you know, when you kind 283 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:04,600 of first talked about those. OK, how do I formulate this 284 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:06,480 question? I'm going to put it rather 285 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:10,800 bluntly. Can I, how do I trust the AI to 286 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:14,640 do the right thing? Because now we're talking about 287 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:17,920 security. And so it needs to be auditable, 288 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:19,960 it needs to be traceable. You need to be able to explain 289 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:21,760 it, right? I think there's a lot of people 290 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:24,480 out there who are interested in sort of like, Oh yeah, sounds 291 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:26,920 cool, but how do I know it's making the right decisions? 292 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:32,040 Great question. So when we started this, the 293 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:35,800 demo version of the product that we have built now took us like a 294 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:39,920 week, but took us a year to put those guardrails around it. 295 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:42,160 Because when you're doing something with 296 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:53,680 identitysecurityyoucannothaveitgowrongitcannotdeleteawrongjohn@example.com, it has to be John, not Jon, if 297 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:57,480 that's the name, example.com. So we've built a lot of 298 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:01,840 algorithmic decision making. We built guardrails around it in 299 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:05,920 terms of how AI navigates. And I'm going to tell you this, 300 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:10,280 in our case, the AI does not make decisions. 301 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:14,520 The AI is doing analysis. And this is when you dig deeper 302 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:17,760 into the industry that we are going after, vendors or 303 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:21,280 competition. Oh yeah, you give the trigger 304 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:24,720 the task to the AI and the AI will figure itself out and 305 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:28,600 decide and take a decision. In our case, the algorithms, the 306 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:32,280 the guard rails, you know, the workflow that have inside, they 307 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:34,840 make decision. AI is the reasoning engine. 308 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:38,440 It's helping navigate. It's, it's helping figure out 309 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:41,560 what needs to be decided upon without AI deciding it. 310 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:46,080 There's a lot more work done. Technically, we have filed close 311 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:47,880 to a dozen patents on what we have built. 312 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:53,400 So it's not like indices skunk work in the garage and coming 313 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:55,720 out and party, but a lot of work that has been done. 314 00:17:56,640 --> 00:18:01,320 I think the whole business case resonates with me where you 315 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:04,520 stand up a lot of these tools and it's like what you have to, 316 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:07,960 to get full value, you have to integrate hundreds of 317 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:10,160 applications in an enterprise scenario. 318 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:15,120 So that's where I think Red Buck fits and maybe you can confirm 319 00:18:15,120 --> 00:18:18,320 that for me. But I'm also thinking from a 320 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:22,240 practitioner standpoint like how do I get this thing rolled out? 321 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:24,520 You talked about services in the beginning. 322 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:28,520 So for a typical customer, what does it look like to get started 323 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:32,800 and to actually start getting that value where it's like, OK, 324 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:37,440 now I've went from I've got 5-10 applications integrated to I'm 325 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:40,840 leveraging Red Block and I'm integrated to hundreds of 326 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:44,000 applications. And that's the challenge for 327 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,600 traditionally like you know, we have customers that just bought 328 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:51,680 a very popular IGA product and they are grappling with this 329 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:53,520 thought. They have 500 applications to be 330 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:57,440 on boarded and they quote got a quote from a services vendor. 331 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:01,960 It's a four year journey. So you essentially are waiting 332 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:05,120 for four years to discover every piece of identity in your 333 00:19:05,120 --> 00:19:08,840 enterprise. You know, what's the analogy 334 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:11,760 there? You're a company of 10,000 335 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:16,600 employees and you do not know the 999 thousands of them 336 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:19,240 because it takes time to go interview and corral. 337 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:24,400 So we come in and we onboard these apps and app a day. 338 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:26,520 The process is very straightforward. 339 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:30,640 So let's say you have an app, let's call John's ERP engine 340 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:33,760 app, right? What are the IID operations? 341 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:38,000 Add user, remove user, change user and aggregate users. 342 00:19:38,360 --> 00:19:42,200 So for each of these IE OPS, you just record a 25 second video of 343 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:44,600 how you and I as humans would interact with apps. 344 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:49,880 So you log in, you go click on that add user button in an admin 345 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:54,480 corner of the screen and that screen recording on any desktop. 346 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:59,680 It gets uploaded onto our studio and the AI crunches it for an 347 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:04,400 hour and it builds a turn by turn navigation of what needs to 348 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:06,600 be done. How it would be done when a 349 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:10,440 trigger from the governance tool or an access tool comes in in 350 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:15,840 real time and then it'll perform an action almost like an API 351 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:19,440 call going to the AI. It performs the action, confirms 352 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:22,720 it and closes a loop with the governance sender or with the 353 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:25,440 governance application, or with the Pam saying hey, rotate 354 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:30,720 credentials on hundreds of CCTV cameras in the supply chain. 355 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:35,480 It'll take a trigger from the Pam, do exactly I had described, 356 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:38,960 go log into each one of the CCTV cameras, admin console, rotate 357 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:41,560 the credentials, push it back to Cam, push it back to the Pam's 358 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:43,680 vault. Super cool. 359 00:20:44,120 --> 00:20:47,280 I think if I was listening to this podcast right now, I'd 360 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:50,440 rewind about two minutes and have to listen to that again. 361 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:54,640 I think that seeing some kind of demo of what you just talked 362 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:59,800 about where you know, the you basically create recordings of 363 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:05,080 this administrative process, AI processes through that and then 364 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:08,040 learns how to do it. It's like, that's the dream, 365 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:12,160 right? It's like AI robots can take 366 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:15,000 YouTube videos and learn from them. 367 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:17,400 I think it's fantastic, Super cool. 368 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:20,080 So I want to see a demo. Hopefully you have that posted 369 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:23,560 on the red block dot AI slash IDAC. 370 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:28,360 We'll have the demo posted. And the kicker here is, which I 371 00:21:28,360 --> 00:21:34,200 didn't mention so far, all of this infrastructure runs not in 372 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:36,280 our cloud, but in our customer's cloud. 373 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:39,840 So we serve banking customers, we serve regulated industries. 374 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:45,560 So we package the AI model, the platform as a virtual appliance 375 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:50,360 and hand it off as a binary. And it runs air gapped on their 376 00:21:50,360 --> 00:21:54,400 own cloud or on Prem. So it doesn't push data to a 377 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:57,920 commercial model, Open AI or Gemini or anybody else. 378 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:02,200 It's our model that is talking natively on Prem or in their own 379 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:05,640 cloud does. That go for the training as well 380 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:07,440 so. Goes for the training as well. 381 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:09,720 OK. So let me make sure I understand 382 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,840 this. For me to set up a connection, 383 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:16,440 let's call it, you're watching my mouse movements, you're 384 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:18,160 recording the screen. I say, OK, this is the button I 385 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:21,960 press to do this thing. And then the system learns what 386 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:26,200 that looks like. And what happens if screens 387 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:30,560 change, UI changes? Do I I have to retrain like that 388 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:33,560 action again? Like how does you know what 389 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:35,400 happens if it doesn't click the right button or it makes a 390 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:37,240 mistake? Like, you know, I feel like I'm 391 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:41,120 the -1 for these are questions, I think, which is like, OK, 392 00:22:41,120 --> 00:22:44,520 well, now I'm looking at a screen that might potentially 393 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:48,120 have sensitive information, a user Ida secret, you know, 394 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:50,680 something it's going into like this screen recording. 395 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:53,680 Like how do I safeguard to make sure that I'm comfortable as a 396 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:58,360 SISO or any other risk person to say, yeah, I trust this thing. 397 00:22:58,360 --> 00:22:59,960 It goes back to the trust question I asked earlier about 398 00:22:59,960 --> 00:23:00,160 AI. So. 399 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:02,320 I'll break this down in two parts. 400 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:05,360 Part 1. All of this training happens in 401 00:23:05,360 --> 00:23:08,680 your environment. So the the video that you just 402 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:12,040 recorded for training the AI sits within your block. 403 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,080 Storage gets destroyed after the AI learns it. 404 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:18,960 It it's not needed, it's once. None of this travels to red 405 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,240 blocks, infrastructure or outside of your Prem. 406 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,720 Second, I'll give you an analogy. 407 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:30,680 So if you drive a Tesla or any FSD you're not training on a 408 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,120 daily basis. It has the model that 409 00:23:33,120 --> 00:23:36,800 understands, OK, what's a pedestrian, You know, what's a 410 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:40,040 cone, you know, what's a, you know, moving object. 411 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:43,680 And it's navigating, deviating, maintaining the curvature of the 412 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:48,040 road as it would need be. And same thing for the web app. 413 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,440 Your colour of the button could change from blue to grey. 414 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,160 The placement could change from left to right. 415 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:58,680 It doesn't require retraining because when the AI ingests the 416 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:02,400 recording the training video for the first time, when it builds a 417 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:07,280 turn by turn directions, it's not hard coded coordinates nor 418 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,920 hard coded text of the button. It training itself based on the 419 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:13,040 intent of the screen. What's the intent of the screen 420 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,040 is to log in? Do I have the credentials, 421 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,120 username, password, second factor, multi factor? 422 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:22,400 What's the intent? Go to the next screen, go to an 423 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,120 admin section. So it's reasoning just like you 424 00:24:25,120 --> 00:24:26,480 and I. Let's say you and I are on a 425 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:28,720 shopping site. We don't know where the checkout 426 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,200 button is. We can start with the URL. 427 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:33,480 OK, add, let's find the checkout button. 428 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,360 OK, not on this page, go to the next page. 429 00:24:36,360 --> 00:24:38,880 AI is reasoning very similarly how you and I. 430 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,400 So we've trained it just like the human behaviour on a page. 431 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,360 See, Jeff, I think you asked that question, right? 432 00:24:44,360 --> 00:24:47,200 Because you're interested. It's like, wow, this is really 433 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,680 cool. We need more, we need to dig 434 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:53,360 more. I'm thinking that. 435 00:24:54,440 --> 00:25:00,200 So this works in coordination with your existing identity 436 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:04,680 infrastructure, IGA, your NHI solution, your Pam. 437 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:06,520 And I think you talked about that a little bit. 438 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:10,960 And I guess from what you said, the way I'm envisioning this is 439 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:15,880 like you say, all right, I'm going to give Jeff XYZ access. 440 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:20,000 You know, maybe in a manual environment you'd go out and 441 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:24,080 issue an ITSM ticket and a human being would go out and do that. 442 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:29,160 But instead red box and pick up that quote UN quote ticket. 443 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:33,000 And it's going to do that based on this training. 444 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:36,920 There's still got to be some kind of integration, right? 445 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,520 Some integration work with those IAM systems. 446 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:41,360 So talk to us a little bit about that. 447 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,640 So we are a sale point partner, we're Savion partner, we work 448 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,160 with Octa, work with Antra, Cyber Ark and others. 449 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:53,120 And we when we started, we did want to replace your the Csos 450 00:25:53,120 --> 00:25:56,480 chess board. We are to come in and you know, 451 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,720 be a little bit more strategic around which pieces, what pieces 452 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,800 to move. So we integrate with, let's take 453 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,680 Sale Point as an example. We integrate the Sale Point as 454 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:10,040 if it's a native app connected inside the Sale Point universe, 455 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,280 so that if you're an admin, you're a user of Sale Point, 456 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,600 your business is on a daily basis as usual. 457 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:21,880 It would almost feel like that app, you know, John's ERP engine 458 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:26,040 is just magically connected using this API inside Sale 459 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:27,440 Point. So we work very closely. 460 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,720 So on the upstream side between Sale Point and Red Block is a 461 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:34,040 very tight coupling basic conform to their you know 462 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:38,640 connector framework and add an app as a new disconnected app 463 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:42,800 comes on board. So to your question, when you'll 464 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:46,720 say a request for fulfillment of let's say removing a user sale 465 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:50,080 point will happily send a trigger using an API call to us 466 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,680 saying hey, for this app perform this action, which is remove a 467 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:57,600 user for this attribute, which is the e-mail address, which is 468 00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,440 a unique identifier where blocks engine is going to take it and 469 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:05,640 then perform the necessary AI automation behind the scenes to 470 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:08,440 remove the user. So it's just like a connected 471 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,880 universe on the upstream side, but by virtue of the AI being 472 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,960 brought in together. I guess sit here and ask, we 473 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,560 went through the why. I could just ask questions about 474 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,120 the how all day because I am interested. 475 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:25,200 I do need to understand again, so maybe we put this in a simple 476 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,880 explanation as possible. So how is it that you know, 477 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,080 traditional approach takes four years to get 500 apps 478 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,640 integrated, but Red block can do it in how long? 479 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,160 So traditional approaches, you know the numbers. 480 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,320 So let's say you have a brand new sale point instance, you're 481 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:47,160 a bank, you have 400 apps to go through, Sale point is going to 482 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:48,880 give. I'm just using sale point as a 483 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:51,760 proxy to large IE universe. So governance vendors will have 484 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:55,800 150 odd apps that have connectors out-of-the-box, which 485 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,920 means if you're lucky, the Venn diagram of what connectors are 486 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,760 available out-of-the-box versus your 500, you'll probably have a 487 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:05,080 match of 10/15/20. Boom, 10/15/20. 488 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,560 Done. You have 400 to go. 489 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:11,840 So then you put an RFP out, contact a services vendor to 490 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:14,600 write connectors for those 400 apps. 491 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:21,800 Averages $10,000 to $20,000 per app over a period of four to six 492 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:24,520 weeks. Lucky like a week now you're 493 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:28,080 looking at millions of dollars looking at a two to four year 494 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:32,600 timeline to bring those on board for us, we're not writing code 495 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,840 to connect these applications in there's no JDBC, there's no 496 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,160 Java. It's all driven by AI. 497 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:42,840 So you record a video, upload it, and the time that is being 498 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:47,560 set spent is for an analyst to confirm that the AI is behaving 499 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:51,200 exactly it's supposed to behave. And within a day or two, you're 500 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:55,160 giving a test data, hey, remove these 3 sample accounts and the 501 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:58,040 AI takes it, removes those 3 sample account, you're 502 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:01,320 satisfied. Boom, you take that unique 503 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:05,840 identifier off that particular app and then you add it in your 504 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,840 governance application. So you know, say points in Cyber 505 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,560 Ark or what have you, and then they're ready to take the 506 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:14,440 trigger. So, you know, when your 507 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:19,040 certification campaign is ready to run, the aggregation process 508 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,520 begins, a signal comes to red Block saying, hey, I need the 509 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:24,360 list of 10,000 users with the entitlements. 510 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:27,920 Boom, just an internal API call between Red Block and the 511 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:31,520 governance and the, you know, response gets sent similarly for 512 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:34,560 removal of a user. So the time is very shortened 513 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:36,040 compared to the years that I would take. 514 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:37,720 I'll give you a very specific example. 515 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,480 A customer that we're on boarding, they'll bring 150 apps 516 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:46,600 next year. They had a three-year quote for 517 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:54,040 close to 1 1/2 million dollars. So two-part question, let's talk 518 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:57,160 about that model. Is there something like you go 519 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:02,440 and help them kind of get kick started and then it's DIY And 520 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:06,200 then also like for a mature client who's actually, you know, 521 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,800 well into their program, how are they measuring the value, 522 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:14,520 measuring their success? So it's DIY. 523 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:19,800 The first part is that we kind of help with the 1st 15/20/10 524 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:23,240 and do a knowledge transfer and then shadow them for a period of 525 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:25,520 time. So we just gave a statement of 526 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:27,920 work to another bank and that's what we're doing like 25 apps, 527 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:31,040 we will do it for them and then shadow them for another 25 and 528 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:32,640 then they take over from them there. 529 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:38,320 The biggest ROI is at least the tangible ROI is time saved and 530 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:42,040 IT ticket is 40 minutes to 2 days. 531 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:47,240 You know the numbers of 90 days like mindless AI is going to 532 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,120 fulfill this in less than 3 minutes. 533 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:55,840 So you could shrink the time to 70 to 80% on a aggregate basis, 534 00:30:56,200 --> 00:31:00,000 but in many cases on edge cases like by 99%. 535 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:05,880 So time saved equates to money. 2nd, if you are a very large 536 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:09,880 bank, you have let's say 90 apps under Sox or under compliance, 537 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:11,800 you have to perform the aggregation. 538 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,920 You're moving data around, you have CSVS and then if there's a 539 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:18,080 human error in one of the aggregated data, which is a CSV 540 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:21,400 file, you have three strikes before you get penalized. 541 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:25,400 So millions of dollars in penalties potentially are saved. 542 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:31,400 And I'm not even using reduction of threat vectors and attack 543 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:36,040 vectors because a rogue account, an orphan account was disabled 544 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:39,440 by AI. And let's be honest, the reason 545 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,520 the ransomware or the adversaries are active, not 546 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,840 because we don't have tools, but because we do not have time. 547 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,200 We do not have time to go look into each and every corner and 548 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,680 say, hey, have I covered all the identities? 549 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,840 Have I covered everything? Now the AI is scanning and going 550 00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:56,720 and fixing this. So. 551 00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:00,840 I'm going to ask maybe a stupid question, yes, because I'm 552 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:02,480 really curious about how this works. 553 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:07,360 How does it do the work? It's not an API, It's not an 554 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:09,400 API. So is it spinning up some sort 555 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:13,360 of like virtualized environment to like replicate a human doing 556 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:17,600 the work? It basically spawns A headless 557 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:20,840 browser. OK, so let's take the say the 558 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:24,120 governance example. You have request for a user 559 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,240 removal from access tool. Let's take save Point as a 560 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,920 governance tool. The API call from sale point 561 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,960 travels to red Block, normal API, nothing fancy. 562 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,920 The moment it comes, we spawn. Of course, there's a lot of work 563 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,440 done behind the scenes in terms of agent planning and all of 564 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:46,320 them kind of glossing over. But the the crux is a headless 565 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,720 browser gets spawned. And this headless browser gets 566 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:53,560 spawned based on the training that you'd we talked about 567 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:58,120 earlier, based on the URL, say John's ERP engine.com gets 568 00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:02,280 launched, a set of credentials are fetched service accounts 569 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:06,720 from a Pam and that the AI is essentially performing the tasks 570 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:10,000 just like you and I would do, except there's no visual 571 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,320 monitor, there's no display adapter. 572 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:14,800 It's all being done in the memory somewhere in a data 573 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:16,880 center. There's nothing running locally 574 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:18,760 on your laptop. There's nothing running 575 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:20,760 adjoining the application where it is going. 576 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:25,080 It's all running remote in a headless environment, and then 577 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:28,680 of course the underlying models are helping decide what needs to 578 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:30,080 be done based on the trigger that comes in. 579 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:31,840 OK. And Jimmy hit it right in the 580 00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:34,760 head and was like, I feel like I can ask how questions all day 581 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:38,240 long. My last, this probably isn't a 582 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,440 how question, but what are the limitations of this? 583 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:42,880 Because you mentioned a headless browser, I think. 584 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:46,440 OK, SAS yeah, makes sense. What about an on Prem 585 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:50,920 application like an SAP or some other thing that is, you know, I 586 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,280 would say not a modern application. 587 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:58,000 Something like that. As long as that legacy app. 588 00:33:58,200 --> 00:33:59,720 So we have done some experiments. 589 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:01,080 We have not released the product yet. 590 00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:07,200 If your mainframe can be proxied over a web browser, the AI can 591 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:09,960 still read and extract information. 592 00:34:10,679 --> 00:34:12,960 It does not do well when you're a chain stuff. 593 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:16,199 Add attributes. So our current limitation is, 594 00:34:16,199 --> 00:34:18,199 and this is a road map we haven't thought through yet 595 00:34:18,199 --> 00:34:21,760 completely, can we solve for thick clients when you have a 596 00:34:22,159 --> 00:34:25,159 desktop application running in your local laptop or a survey 597 00:34:25,159 --> 00:34:28,480 environment? Right now our limitation is 598 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,719 anything that is web navigable. If you and I as humans can 599 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,760 navigate and solve the problem in a browser, bingo, Yeah, I 600 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:36,840 will do it. OK. 601 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:39,639 And I appreciate understanding that because I think a lot of 602 00:34:39,639 --> 00:34:41,840 people say, yes, of course we can do it and then we'll figure 603 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:44,000 it out later. But I think of like, you know, 604 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:46,080 just kind of brainstorming. It's like, OK, well why not just 605 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:49,480 spin up like a little virtual machine, you know, of a Windows 606 00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:53,480 or a Mac or a new Linux and run that thick client in the same 607 00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:55,639 way where it would be kind of like a browser type thing. 608 00:34:55,639 --> 00:34:58,760 So I'm not an engineer, I'm just thinking, you know, rudimentary, 609 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,880 but it feels like it's the art of a possible at that stage. 610 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:06,120 I think it's very early. So if you look at I'm going to 611 00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:09,160 use the self driving as an analogy. 612 00:35:09,720 --> 00:35:12,960 So 10 years ago Elon announced autopilot. 613 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:16,880 Of course, marketing jargon, but it did those three things very 614 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:19,760 well. Put it the car in the autopilot. 615 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,920 It will maintain the curvature of the laner Dr. it'll do 616 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:27,320 adaptive cruise control. Second, it do a very fantastic 617 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:30,080 lane change. You like tap it up and like veer 618 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:34,160 to the next one and then done third thing, it will park very 619 00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:36,440 well, like parallel parking Bingo. 620 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:40,400 Like 10 years ago, unimaginable. But 10 years from now it is 621 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:44,120 almost like I don't drive anymore 99% of the time unless 622 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,120 you know, there's intervention because that's how it has it has 623 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:49,560 it has become. I think we are at the early 624 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:52,600 stage of AI driven automation. This is the first year. 625 00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:54,280 This is the first year of the autopilot. 626 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:57,000 And for you the hype is so much you can actually call it almost 627 00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:59,600 autopilot. I think we'll get there to the 628 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:01,520 Nirvana stage in the next 5-7 years. 629 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:05,680 So I appreciate the pun of AI driven and using the full self 630 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:08,840 driving analogies. I think it's a great analogy 631 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:11,440 because I remember the first time I had a Tesla a while back 632 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,960 and the first time you turn on the autopilot, you're like, 633 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:19,480 whoa, I don't trust it, right? Because you might drive a little 634 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:21,600 more on the left in the lane versus the right in the lane. 635 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,320 But you know, it generally sits right in the middle of the lane 636 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:27,080 and it follows the curves. But that first couple times when 637 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:28,520 you turn it on, you're very nervous. 638 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:30,040 At least I was like, all right, do I trust this thing? 639 00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:34,280 But as I learned the system and understood, you know, the 640 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:37,760 limitations and where it excelled, I got very comfortable 641 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:39,320 with it. And yeah, it's a great feature. 642 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:41,320 So I love that. I, I, I, I really like the 643 00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:45,360 analogy of the, of the FSD with the AI driven great, you know, 644 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:47,480 great connection there. Let me ask you a little bit 645 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:49,760 about 2025. Like, what do you think is like 646 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:53,560 the biggest thing that Red Block has, like, really come out there 647 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:54,960 and, you know, accomplished this year? 648 00:36:56,120 --> 00:37:01,240 I think 25 started for us with a great bang in a way. 649 00:37:01,720 --> 00:37:04,800 So we presented our first ever industry paper. 650 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:08,760 So we built our own visual benchmark. 651 00:37:09,240 --> 00:37:13,400 So if you peel the onions of AI behind the scenes, it's all 652 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:16,800 driven by how performing it is. You ask the guard real question 653 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:19,360 how performing it is. And if I give and if you've 654 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:21,640 probably seen some of the open AI benchmark, like yeah, it can 655 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:25,920 now solve SAT it could, you know, clear the bar exam and 656 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:29,240 that those are the benchmarks. When we started this, there were 657 00:37:29,240 --> 00:37:32,840 no benchmarks for visual reasoning because, you know, red 658 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:34,080 block is all about visual reasoning. 659 00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:36,960 We look at the page and and the AI decides how good or bad it 660 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,320 is. So we presented our first ever 661 00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:40,840 industry paper for visual reasoning. 662 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:43,240 I'm not going to go into details because it's going to take a 663 00:37:43,240 --> 00:37:46,680 whole side track because based on 2 very popular game shows, 664 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:50,680 but let's keep it for later. And that was like early this 665 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,520 year in Abu Dhabi. I was there, we presented and 666 00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:55,600 then we launched the the product. 667 00:37:55,600 --> 00:38:00,040 So we went GA on April 29th, I think the first day of RSA, we 668 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,880 announced the product. We announced the product, not 669 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:06,560 just the product available. We actually took an NVIDIA GPU 670 00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:11,960 cluster at our booth, the whole of AI running air gap locally 671 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:15,040 and doing the things I'm just describing like you know, JML 672 00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:19,200 and AD user, aggregate user. And then we acquired the first 673 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:22,400 set of early customers for us. I'm really thankful short of 674 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,440 disclosing the names of some of the largest in the world working 675 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,000 with us because they're very progressive in their minds. 676 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:31,640 They have the problem that they have not been able to solve and 677 00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:33,720 a small team that became slightly larger. 678 00:38:33,720 --> 00:38:36,640 We now have like 14 people between Bay Area and Bangalore 679 00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:39,400 so can't complain about anything right now. 680 00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,080 So 2025 is like the coming out party, Yes? 681 00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:47,400 What does 2026 look like? The winning party, the goal is 682 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:51,360 to, you know, get this in the hands of at least 20 brand new 683 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,840 customers. Many in conversations we have 684 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:59,640 not talked about the how publicly yet and I'm short of 685 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,280 almost stopping myself. Shall I say this? 686 00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:06,760 Shall I say this not because what we want to talk most is 687 00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:08,600 what is the problem they're solving. 688 00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:12,520 If you go to website, the mention of AI is in the ratio of 689 00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:16,600 the mention of security is at least 2-2 or five X. 690 00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:19,240 The AI is not there that much. We talk about the problem that 691 00:39:19,240 --> 00:39:21,240 we solve. I think next year the goal is to 692 00:39:21,240 --> 00:39:24,440 talk a little bit more about how we do this and disclose some of 693 00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:26,880 the papers that we have filed, some of the IP that we have 694 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:28,120 created. So that's the plan. 695 00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:29,440 We're going to say acquire more customers. 696 00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:32,400 That's why I was saying. So if there's one take away that 697 00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:34,520 people should take away from this conversation, like what is 698 00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:38,040 the plea to or call to action other than, you know, visit the 699 00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:41,280 website redblock dot AI slash idac, right? 700 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:42,920 We'll have there'll be stuff there you can learn more. 701 00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:45,320 But like what is something that's listening to this 702 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:46,640 conversation? Like, all right, so I've just 703 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:51,080 heard about this thing called. Redblock Now what if you have 704 00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:54,360 applications that are not connected, applications that do 705 00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:58,360 not have APIs and you know Gartner is calling that category 706 00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:01,640 as disconnected apps? You know, talk to us, give us 707 00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:05,320 like a day and give us an app. We will get this up and running 708 00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:09,960 in our sandbox or yours and then perform these actions what you 709 00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:12,240 always want to do. But unfortunately you sent it to 710 00:40:12,240 --> 00:40:14,760 an IT ticket AI will fulfill it in minutes. 711 00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:16,960 Instead of, you know, you're relying on somebody who's 712 00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:19,200 watching Netflix or on vacation, then it's going to come back and 713 00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:20,880 close the ticket. AI will close it in like 3 714 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:23,520 minutes. So you just, we're here at the 715 00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:28,560 Gartner Island Summit in Grapevine, TX Amazing, yes, 716 00:40:28,720 --> 00:40:30,480 everybody's dream to come here someday. 717 00:40:31,720 --> 00:40:36,600 No, you presented yesterday. You've been at this conference 718 00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:40,680 now for a day and and change. What's your impression of the 719 00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:43,720 conference and tell us a little bit about your presentation. 720 00:40:43,720 --> 00:40:46,960 Yesterday. So I think we still at the 721 00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:53,000 what's the right word? I think we're still skeptic 722 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:57,760 about the use of AI in identity. We still kind of walking tiptoe 723 00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:01,080 into this territory that, hey, can AI solve this problem or 724 00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:05,240 not? Luckily, there's lesser of a 725 00:41:05,240 --> 00:41:09,960 negative chatter on AI doing damage, which was kind of 726 00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:12,520 relieving for me when I was at the keynote yesterday. 727 00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:17,000 It was a little bit more balanced versus the other any 728 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:20,680 events I've been to. It was like or the the online 729 00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:23,400 chatter is how AI is going to do more damage. 730 00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:27,720 The Terminator, I think the the my take away is we're still a 731 00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:30,880 little bit more skeptic, but just like any other new 732 00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:35,000 technology, be a typewriter, be it the Gutenberg press or be it 733 00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:38,600 the Tesla, self driving as humanity, you got to experiment. 734 00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:40,680 You got to figure out whether this is going to work for us. 735 00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:43,640 Of course there'll be bad actors, but we cannot stop 736 00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:45,160 innovating. But because of they're bad 737 00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:48,800 actors in the world, I think my impression is you'll be a little 738 00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:51,000 bit more aggressive about this. You'll be a little bit more 739 00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:53,960 forthcoming about experimenting, adopting of tools. 740 00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:56,880 I mean, that's my take away from like day and half. 741 00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:01,720 Yesterday I talked about, you know, it was mostly how there's 742 00:42:01,720 --> 00:42:07,280 a gap in the market and how the attack surface is super exposed 743 00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:11,440 because there's more and more apps, you know, the explosion of 744 00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:13,840 apps. You know, you and I are old 745 00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:15,880 enough. I remember I had like 5 746 00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:17,720 applications on my desktop. That was my word. 747 00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:21,880 Now the team that I have, they have 50 applications, you know, 748 00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:26,960 SAS and internal. So that app explosion is the the 749 00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:30,080 driving force and then agents coming in. 750 00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:33,360 So you no longer are your one person doing the thing, you have 751 00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:35,880 10 delegates doing the thing. So how are you going to manage 752 00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:37,440 all of this? Yeah. 753 00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:41,600 So what themes are you seeing or conversations you're having here 754 00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:44,480 at the conference that make you optimistic for the future? 755 00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:49,000 I think there is some conversation around non human 756 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:54,240 identity and how guardrails have to be input around agents that 757 00:42:54,240 --> 00:42:57,440 will access credentials. So I think people are thinking 758 00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:00,520 about it, people also thinking about permissions. 759 00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:05,880 So if I allow an agent to do a task, is it static? 760 00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:08,320 Is it dynamic? How can I do just in time? 761 00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:12,000 So I think they're thinking around on the edges of what 762 00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:15,760 should be the art of possible allowing AI to do the task, but 763 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:18,000 with the guardrails and with the permissions around it. 764 00:43:18,240 --> 00:43:22,640 So I'm very hopeful that as innovators, as an industry in 765 00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:24,760 general, will solve this problem and we'll get to it. 766 00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:29,880 However, my only worry is that we have not fully solved the 767 00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:33,200 human identity problem. I hope we accelerate that. 768 00:43:33,720 --> 00:43:35,640 What's not being emphasized enough? 769 00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:38,160 What are you concerned that we're not paying enough 770 00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:41,640 attention to? I think the privileges the are 771 00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:45,320 the the issue of over permissioning is still rampant. 772 00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:49,840 If I join a company, I need access to 25 systems. 773 00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:52,120 I clamor. I Hume and cry and fight. 774 00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:54,480 I get 25 of those GitHub repositories. 775 00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:57,640 Just take that example. When I leave or when I change 776 00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:00,680 roles, I still have access to sensitive repositories and data. 777 00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:03,720 I think it's not enough attention being paid towards 778 00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:09,080 over permissioning privileges accumulating static privileges. 779 00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:10,840 I think that requires rethought all right. 780 00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:14,880 Final question. This is not a financial 781 00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:20,360 question. This is a question about, you 782 00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:24,520 know, from the perspective of the technology. 783 00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:31,640 Are we in an AI bubble? We are, I think, I think this is 784 00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:34,120 our human mind. I, I don't want to be negative 785 00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:35,600 about it. It's a human mind, right? 786 00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:39,560 There'll always be a group of people, all of us combined. 787 00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:42,560 They'll be excited about something that is new because as 788 00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:46,760 a kid we want to play with the toy, but then there are hundreds 789 00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:48,680 of kids wanting to play with the toy. 790 00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:52,120 So the toy manufacturers are out of control and hence there's a 791 00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:55,520 lot of money being pumped in on technology that's not proven. 792 00:44:56,560 --> 00:45:00,720 So which is good and bad. Good that it brings out the 793 00:45:00,720 --> 00:45:04,320 best. Bad that the best ones do not 794 00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:07,360 have access or capital to let the technology see the light of 795 00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:11,400 the day. So if you are connected with me, 796 00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:14,760 I am running a fund of a billion. 797 00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:17,560 I will let you try that for a $10 million check. 798 00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:23,600 But am I doing disservice? Probably, yes. 799 00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:27,960 I should look out for other. I'm not saying anything against 800 00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:31,680 our relationship, but there could be better use of this 801 00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:35,160 money to invest in startups or technology to, you know, do a 802 00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:37,840 better good study. So it has to be more controlled. 803 00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:40,920 It has to be steadfast rather than, hey, let's just go invest 804 00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:44,120 all the money possible. You've seen that story in in the 805 00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:48,600 web era, 96 to 99. Everything that was promised 806 00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:51,960 went out of business, but everything that was promised 807 00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:55,520 ultimately was delivered over the next 10 years after the 808 00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:58,600 bubble. So all the web, all the SAS, if 809 00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:01,960 we go back in time, Oh yeah, shared drives. 810 00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:04,280 I remember startups that were raised hundreds of millions in 811 00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:05,320 shared drives went out of business. 812 00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:08,480 But what's proper now? Google Drive, Box and Dropbox 813 00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:11,840 born after the bubble. Well, blast of my past. 814 00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:13,920 I'm thinking of my zip drives that I used to have. 815 00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:17,720 Oh, yeah, I can store 250 megabytes on it. 816 00:46:17,720 --> 00:46:19,640 Oh my gosh, there's so much room now, right? 817 00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:21,960 It's been a really interesting conversation. 818 00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:24,200 I definitely want to like learn more about this. 819 00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:27,680 So again, go to the website, you know, red block dot IAI slash 820 00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:30,680 IDAC. We're kind of getting to know 821 00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:32,240 each other before we hit record here. 822 00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:35,880 And we were talking about flying, like, literally flying 823 00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:38,320 planes. So I want to know how you got 824 00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:43,640 into, you know, being a pilot and what do you fly and when are 825 00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:48,400 we going to go flying? So every kid has the same dream, 826 00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:52,800 all of us, right? I want to be a guy riding the 827 00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:55,200 fire engine. I want to be a pilot riding a 828 00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:56,480 plane. Guilty. 829 00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:59,120 I wanted to be a pilot. Yeah, all of us have the same 830 00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:01,040 dream. But you know, we get busy, life 831 00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:03,400 catches on, we get family, work catches on. 832 00:47:04,240 --> 00:47:07,360 And when I moved to the Bay Area, I grew up in India, of 833 00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:10,920 course, air travel. Now it's a Papa and I grew up 834 00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:13,720 with no air travel. And then when I moved to the Bay 835 00:47:13,720 --> 00:47:16,960 Area, I did not know I started living next to an airport. 836 00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:20,880 So I live in East Bay in a small city called Dublin, which is 837 00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:23,280 like 1 1/2 miles from the Livermore Airport, which is a 838 00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:25,240 local Municipal Airport. It has two runways. 839 00:47:25,240 --> 00:47:27,080 Fantastic. Both of them are good use. 840 00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:31,920 And one fine day without telling my wife, I went on a Discovery 841 00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:36,240 flight and I was free. And then the flight ends very 842 00:47:36,240 --> 00:47:41,240 well and I registered for a flying class and for an offline 843 00:47:41,240 --> 00:47:43,200 training class where they teach you the theory. 844 00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:46,240 So essentially, without telling my wife and my family, I started 845 00:47:46,240 --> 00:47:49,080 training for a pilot where I have to clear a written exam and 846 00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:54,000 an online and in air exam or behind the wheels tested zip 847 00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:58,360 code driving the car and low and both few years later, I I am now 848 00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:01,880 flying a single engine Cessna. So I'm like, yeah, normal single 849 00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:05,800 engine Cessna pilot, which can take one or two passengers and 850 00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:09,280 then not go out beyond 304 hundred miles of my local 851 00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:11,640 airport. So it's fun and you're most 852 00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:14,760 welcome to join me whenever. Can they stay in the Bay Area? 853 00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:17,000 How long did it take you to get your pilot? 854 00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:22,120 License. I did, I think 6668 hours over a 855 00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:25,080 period of a year, OK. So I've been flying like flight 856 00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:28,640 simulators since I was in my teens, right? 857 00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:31,720 So I feel like, you know, there's, there's this, you know, 858 00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:34,280 feeling that if you've played video games, a lot of people 859 00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:36,320 there was like a study is like, well, you know, if the plane 860 00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:38,240 ever says we need a pilot, right? 861 00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:40,240 Anybody who's played video games, like a flight game is 862 00:48:40,240 --> 00:48:44,720 like, yeah, I can fly a plane. I I think it's, I think it's so 863 00:48:44,720 --> 00:48:48,960 cool to have the time to be able to do that and the investment to 864 00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:51,960 be able to like do that. Like what's next from like a 865 00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:55,880 flight perspective? Do you go to a larger plane or 866 00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:59,840 are you like, I'm good with the Cessna and like tell me about 867 00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:01,920 like where the next part of the journey is? 868 00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:03,640 Do you have more than an hour on this? 869 00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:05,720 We could do it all the time. I was on it, yeah. 870 00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:10,960 So what we've so the pilot journey is very similar to an 871 00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:12,680 identity professional journey. I'm just kidding. 872 00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:15,800 So the pilot journey is you basically, hey, I want to do a 873 00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:17,560 discovery flight. Then you become what is called a 874 00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:20,200 VFR pilot. So visual flying rules 875 00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:23,080 essentially you visually look at stuff. 876 00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:25,600 Of course, you have a map, you have a guide, you look at 877 00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:28,920 objects. You cannot fly within or inside 878 00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:31,160 clouds. It has to be 100% clear a day 879 00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:34,480 before you can fly. So the next step is you get IFR, 880 00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:36,160 which is instrument flying rules. 881 00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:39,520 You can blind, not blindfold, but you don't probably look over 882 00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:42,080 the cockpit or the horizon. You can just look at the 883 00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:45,080 instruments and you can still fly because now you're using 884 00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:47,800 guided instruments and automation and helping and then 885 00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:50,760 fly. The other part is you go from 886 00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:54,480 single engine to double engine, you go to jets, you go turbo 887 00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:57,480 profs, you go, you know, Boeing's and the larger jets, 888 00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:01,200 which is thousands of hours of flying, don't have patience, 889 00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:03,560 don't have time. That not becoming a professional 890 00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:07,200 pilot yet, at least not my bucket list. 891 00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:10,880 I think VFR to IFR is a very simple journey. 892 00:50:11,240 --> 00:50:15,160 It requires another probably 50 to 100 hours of investment. 893 00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:19,400 If you take another exam, you have to have another examiner in 894 00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:22,360 the plane clearing you. And of course then you could fly 895 00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:24,120 anywhere. You could go above 10,000 896 00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:26,840 because then visual flying as a rule and all that. 897 00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:29,440 So just follow I. Think it would be so cool, Jim, 898 00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:32,560 like, you know, we do consulting during the day like why don't we 899 00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:35,920 just fly to the client, right, rather than drive or take a 900 00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:37,080 commercial. It's like, hey, let's get a 901 00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:39,720 little plane and, you know, take off and. 902 00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:41,960 Nobody to bother you up in the air. 903 00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:44,120 You just by yourself, if not your wife or your friends or 904 00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:47,400 your family, just aim for the sky, just going somewhere. 905 00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:52,520 I think the visual and the instrument guided a big leap, 906 00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:53,760 right? It's a big leap. 907 00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:58,840 From my understanding, most of the accidents are with the 908 00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:02,480 instruments, people not trusting them and and kind of like saying 909 00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:05,560 Oh no, they feel like they're flying in a circle or something 910 00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:08,680 so they go the other way, don't trust the instruments, and then 911 00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:13,160 end up in an accident. Well, if you know the stats, 912 00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:17,280 most of the accidents are people trusting themselves too much. 913 00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:23,520 Most of the accidents are not on a bad weather day, but on a 914 00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:26,840 clear weather day. This is like a very jarring 915 00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:35,120 statistics from FAA. 56% of accidents are not in the air but 916 00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:38,600 near the airport, whether you're landing or taking off and some 917 00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:41,360 obstruction. And the majority of them I don't 918 00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:44,480 have the numbers are on a very fine day because they Oh yeah, I 919 00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:48,400 can see through it and then relax, soak it in and next year 920 00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:50,920 something goes wrong. I always find it fascinating. 921 00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:53,360 You know, I fly a lot of out of the Atlanta airport a lot, you 922 00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:55,600 know, very busy. And when you hear about like 923 00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:59,440 planes colliding, you know, in the terminal and on the gates, 924 00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:02,640 you know, and, and stuff is like, these are giant planes. 925 00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:06,000 Like how do you mess that up so badly? 926 00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:09,400 There's a distraction. I think as individuals we are 927 00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:11,600 more distracted, we're not paying attention. 928 00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:15,640 We have become like a goldfish brained and accidents have 929 00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:17,640 happened more recently than earlier. 930 00:52:18,240 --> 00:52:21,720 So can we get to full self flying at some point? 931 00:52:21,720 --> 00:52:24,960 I know a lot of, you know, commercial flights are automated 932 00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:27,920 to some degree, even with like iOS systems for instrument 933 00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:30,000 landings and stuff like that. Not every airport has that. 934 00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:35,520 But, you know, we're coming to the point where, you know, an AI 935 00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:37,760 can essentially fly the plane for you as long as the 936 00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:39,400 instrumentation is correct, right? 937 00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:41,560 And the hardware is there. Like how far away do you think 938 00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:44,200 we are from like pilotless planes? 939 00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:48,840 I think pilotless planes are far away because especially on 940 00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:52,640 commercial side, if you look at let's take A380, a 350, Boeing 941 00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:56,440 77 Sevens and the modern planes and Dreamliners, 90% of the 942 00:52:56,440 --> 00:52:59,280 flying is automated today because of the autopilot. 943 00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:03,040 It has a plan fed in and it just guides itself on the way unless 944 00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:05,760 there's intervention. The landing and take offs are 945 00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:08,320 still very manual, very pilot intervened. 946 00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:12,800 Technology is there to automate it, but I think the rules and 947 00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:16,240 segregation in the last minute, you know the ATC intervening 948 00:53:16,240 --> 00:53:19,000 because there's a plane which is delayed in take off etcetera. 949 00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:24,520 I didn't take time. I, I think it's OK in my mind, 950 00:53:24,720 --> 00:53:29,000 you still want, at least if I am one of the 150 passengers in my 951 00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:32,520 Southwest, I want the pilot to be there. 952 00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:35,440 You know, just like your Waymo or your Tesla. 953 00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:39,080 So Tesla still requires you to be sitting as a driver in Waymo. 954 00:53:39,720 --> 00:53:43,360 I'm sure you've taken Waymo's. The sheer fact that there's a 955 00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:45,760 steering wheel gives a sense of calm. 956 00:53:47,280 --> 00:53:49,560 And there was a discussion last week with someone, I forgot the 957 00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:52,840 name of the person, he said. Oh man, if they could put a 958 00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:56,080 dummy there it would given me even more sense of calmness 959 00:53:56,080 --> 00:53:59,480 because it make my mind feel that somebody's there, although 960 00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:02,440 the dummy's doing nothing. Now I'm thinking of the movie 961 00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:06,160 Airplane with the dummy copilot inflatable that comes up. 962 00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:08,560 And this has been such a fascinating conversation. 963 00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:09,640 I feel like there's so much more. 964 00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:13,240 Again, so many hows like how this works, you know, we'll 965 00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:15,240 point people to the website. It'll be in our show notes and 966 00:54:15,240 --> 00:54:17,480 things like that for people to check out, connect with you on 967 00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:19,280 LinkedIn, you know, that kind of stuff. 968 00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:21,880 So really appreciate you taking the time with us, sponsoring an 969 00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:24,360 episode, getting the word out. You know, this is the coming out 970 00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:26,000 party. Let's you know, cheers to a 971 00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:29,840 great 2026. And yeah, so we'll leave it 972 00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:31,720 there for this week. Thanks everybody for watching 973 00:54:31,720 --> 00:54:33,760 and listening. You can find us on the web, IDC 974 00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:36,080 podcast.com, like and subscribe, do all that fun stuff. 975 00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:39,360 And yeah, we'll leave it there. Thanks for take care. 976 00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:44,960 You've been listening to Identity at the Center. 977 00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:49,440 We hope you've enjoyed the show. Make sure to like, rate and 978 00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:53,080 review, and we'll be back soon. But in the meantime, hit the 979 00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:56,480 website at identity@thecenter.com. 980 00:54:57,080 --> 00:55:01,200 See you next time on Identity at the Center.