1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,000 The connection to human rights is so apparent, and I did not 2 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:06,160 expect that at all. I largely saw technology as 3 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:10,520 something being really removed from the ethical side of human 4 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:13,040 rights. And it is so deeply connected 5 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:16,800 and conversations that I've had about making technology 6 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:20,120 accessible where air populations that might not have multiple 7 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:23,760 forms of identification might not have access to pass key 8 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:26,480 technology. How can you include them in this 9 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:29,880 new wave and not completely exclude them moving forward? 10 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:32,759 Because I do think this is such a positive way to the future, 11 00:00:32,759 --> 00:00:34,560 but you have to account for that as well. 12 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:38,800 And so that has been just really, really inspiring to see 13 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:41,440 and to hear and I hope to have more of that moving forward. 14 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:45,840 The non serious conference revelation has been, I'm trying 15 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:48,760 to wrap my head around tech casual, tech formal because it's 16 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:51,760 very different than long and everyone here is dressed 17 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:54,880 differently. So I'm trying to figure out what 18 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:57,040 is the dress code. I really like it because it is 19 00:00:57,040 --> 00:01:01,040 so open and casual and but wrapping my head around that 20 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:05,319 coming from a suit's background has been a a new step for me. 21 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:07,680 So you want to you want to attract Jim. 22 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:10,480 When it comes to the fashion service, possibly the best well 23 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:14,480 dressed man and all of identity, you go with Jim. 24 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:23,600 He can set the tone for you. This is identity at the center 25 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:27,480 if it has anything to do with IAM. 26 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:34,040 This is the go to podcast now your hosts Jim McDonald and Jeff 27 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:41,760 Stedman. Welcome to the Identity at the 28 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:43,400 Center podcast. I'm Jeff, and that's Jim. 29 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:44,960 Hey, Jim. Hey, Jeff, how are you? 30 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:47,200 Not so bad yourself. Terrible. 31 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:48,800 Terrible. I'm not happy at all. 32 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:53,120 Okay, obviously kidding. I'm in San Diego or more. 33 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:56,400 Specifically Carlsbad. Well, I mean, you find ways to 34 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:57,680 complain about a lot of things, so. 35 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:00,600 Yeah, that's a good point. But I'm very happy. 36 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:04,560 I mean, the weather is perfect. We're at the Authenticate Office 37 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:10,199 2024 and in podcasting. I mean, this is the life, right? 38 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:12,280 Yeah, I mean, can't, can't get any better than this. 39 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:14,200 Who's got it better than us? Nobody, right? 40 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:15,800 That's nobody Phrase. Yeah. 41 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:18,880 Authenticate 2024. Special thanks to the Fido group 42 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:22,280 for getting us out here. And I think we've already talked 43 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:24,320 about it, and some of these episodes might be out of order 44 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:27,840 as I get around to editing them, but we did a Fido feud thing on 45 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:31,400 the stage yesterday, which was probably the most fun I think 46 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:33,000 I've had at a conference to date. 47 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:36,520 And I'm looking very much forward to turning that into an 48 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:40,480 episode in the future. I also want to thank RSM, who is 49 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:43,560 our employer in our day jobs. They're picking up all of our 50 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:46,400 expenses. So not only are we here in this 51 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:48,960 wonderful place, but we don't have to pay for it out of our 52 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:49,760 own pockets. Yeah. 53 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:51,320 So thanks, Daniel. Thanks, Ghazi. 54 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:55,360 If you want to help us out, check out rsmus.com and hire us 55 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:56,920 for digital identity consulting needs. 56 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:02,040 OK, So what else we got, we got authenticate this week. 57 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:04,520 Yep. You and I actually going to be 58 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:05,880 at sale point Navigate next week. 59 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:09,160 So by the time people listen to this one, which I hope to get 60 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:12,680 out on Monday, we will already be at sale point Navigate in 61 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:14,320 Orlando. So we're Criss crossing the US 62 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:16,760 and then we're going to be at Gartner. 63 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:20,240 I am later this year in Grapevine and we have a discount 64 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:24,040 code for people. So if you use the code IDAC 375, 65 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:26,960 you get $375. Clever how that works, right? 66 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:29,640 And you get that off your registration. 67 00:03:29,640 --> 00:03:31,560 So I'll have a link in our show notes for people to check that 68 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:33,560 out. It'll take advantage of it and 69 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:35,440 yeah, we'll be a Gartner. We're doing something I don't. 70 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:37,840 Know what stage we're going to be doing a use case. 71 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:40,480 A use case of what? Use? 72 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:42,920 A use case of use OK. Well, we'll figure it out. 73 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:45,840 It'll be very Casey. OK, All right, let's see, what 74 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:47,160 else? Anything else? 75 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:48,760 Or should we get to our guests? Get to it? 76 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:51,600 Yeah, They're staring at us across the table, politely 77 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:54,040 chuckling. We've got a couple people. 78 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:55,560 But first of all, we've got Grace Kluky. 79 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:58,520 She's the Kim Cameron Award winner this year from the 80 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:00,240 Digital Identity Advancement Foundation. 81 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:03,080 And then we've got Aaron Crowe and Ian Glaser, both from the 82 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:05,000 Digital Identity Advancement Foundation. 83 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:07,160 So Grace, welcome. It's your first time on the 84 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:08,320 show. Thank you. 85 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:09,080 Thank you. I'm so happy. 86 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:10,920 To be here. So this is, I hate to say it, 87 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:13,400 but this is probably the pinnacle of your career being on 88 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:15,680 this podcast. So it's probably all downhill 89 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:18,399 from here. As Ian and Aaron could probably 90 00:04:18,399 --> 00:04:21,320 attest, They've been on the show before, and I don't think 91 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:23,720 they've reached such heights as when they've been on this 92 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:25,160 episode or on this podcast before. 93 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:27,040 So welcome. You're really overdoing it 94 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:28,280 today. What are you talking about? 95 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:32,040 We're here. This is great, Ian. 96 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:35,440 Welcome back to the show. Thanks again for having us. 97 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:37,320 It's, it's really a pleasure. It's always fun. 98 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:40,920 And I have to thank the IDOC folks for supporting Daya. 99 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:43,920 You guys have been there since last year when we first 100 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:46,640 announced the organization, and I've always been so supportive. 101 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:49,560 So I I deeply thank not only you, but the listening audience. 102 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:51,800 Well, I mean, you guys put together such a good 103 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:54,160 organization and Aaron welcome you to the show as well. 104 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:56,360 So feel free to grab the mic. This is our budget. 105 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:58,240 We have 1 mic for two people. Yeah. 106 00:04:58,280 --> 00:05:00,200 Thanks for having us back. I've been excited about this 107 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:02,560 conversation all week and getting to talk a little bit 108 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:05,520 about what we've been up to at DAF and also hearing from Grace 109 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:07,440 and a bit about her background, which is really, really 110 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:11,120 interesting. So let's get to Grace in your 111 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:13,640 story, because you've won the Kim Cameron Award. 112 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:15,480 Or your award. I'm not sure how that works 113 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:18,120 right, what the right terminology is, but take us 114 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:21,040 through your journey. How did you, how did you one, 115 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:24,560 become aware of it and then two, what was the process to go to 116 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:27,600 apply for it? And then you found out you were 117 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:29,320 awarded this thing. And then just take us through 118 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:30,520 that. Yes, definitely. 119 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:33,760 So I don't have a technical background, so I didn't find my 120 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:36,680 way here through a straightforward Rd., I think. 121 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:41,280 But I was in law school and I take privacy law, cybersecurity, 122 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:45,680 Internet law, and kept going through the same catch phrases. 123 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:48,600 And I really wanted to find something to anchor my 124 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:52,280 understanding of the tech world and privacy and found Kim 125 00:05:52,280 --> 00:05:54,400 Cameron and his laws through that. 126 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:57,440 And that was really, really instrumental for me 127 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:00,840 understanding what frameworks there are and how the Internet 128 00:06:00,840 --> 00:06:03,040 should be governed, how it works right now. 129 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:06,440 And then speaking with my professors, looking at different 130 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:08,360 organizations that follow through. 131 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:10,960 That's how I found the award. And it just kind of fit that it 132 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:14,520 was titled the Kim Cameron Award as that being kind of my guiding 133 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:17,200 pillars as I'm learning privacy and Internet law. 134 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:20,320 And I think it's just very informative for law in general 135 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:23,880 to know those codes and pillars and how they speak to our 136 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:27,720 interactions online. Yeah, I think Kim was such a big 137 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:30,720 thinker in this space. I mean, the first time I became 138 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:35,840 aware of him was my very first identity conference back in O 6. 139 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:39,760 So it was the not sure which conference it was. 140 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:44,080 Either way, he was kind of announcing these laws of 141 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:47,520 identity and they're still as relevant today as they were back 142 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:52,680 then. So Ian, Aaron, you guys are from 143 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:54,920 the Digital Identity Advances Foundation. 144 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:58,640 We aren't. For you guys, there's Identity 145 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:02,240 Advancement Foundation. Everybody, I'm glad everybody 146 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:06,320 was excited as I am. So tell us a little bit about 147 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:09,360 the organization, but then I also want to hear some about, 148 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:11,760 like, why Kim Cameron, the world? 149 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:14,520 Yeah. And so I could start us off. 150 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:18,960 So the Digital Identity Advancement Foundation or DAF, 151 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:22,320 much easier for us all to say, is a nonprofit organization 152 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:25,840 dedicated to furthering the cause of digital identity and 153 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:28,960 the development of digital identity practitioners. 154 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:31,160 There are a couple of ways we do this. 155 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:34,240 We have some award programs that Ian will talk about more in a 156 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:37,200 few moments, but really like that's kind of the the 157 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:40,480 foundation of our mission is being able to develop this 158 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:43,120 community, give a little bit back to it and bring in some new 159 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:45,600 folks and help them establish their ties here as well. 160 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:52,280 So the the Kim Award comes originally from the Open ID 161 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:55,480 Foundation. So when Kim passed away, he 162 00:07:55,600 --> 00:08:00,920 spent a lot of his time in the OIDF furthering a variety of 163 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:04,640 standards and technologies, but also was a mentor to a lot of 164 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:07,240 those people and peer, including myself. 165 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:12,520 So the OIDF originally created the award and as it had grown 166 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:16,200 over time and as OIDF grew over time, they were looking for a 167 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:20,240 place for that award to live on with more dedicated focus, let's 168 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:24,200 say. And so the old executive 169 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:28,600 director came to myself and Alan Foster, the third head of the 170 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:32,480 three headed monster that is DIAF and talked about how can we 171 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:36,880 find a place to really let this award and others grow out of 172 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:42,720 that came die off. And so we had funding to 173 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:45,680 continue Kim's award. We actually expanded on that. 174 00:08:45,680 --> 00:08:50,560 So this year we have 5 winners, Grace being the the last of the 175 00:08:50,560 --> 00:08:53,840 five for this year. And we went through the 176 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:57,400 basically the award process. We solicited for people's sort 177 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:00,640 of applications to this, and then we had some folks, some 178 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:03,640 from the OIDF and ourselves, involved in sort of looking 179 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:05,560 through them and saying like, who would be a good fit? 180 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:11,080 Kim was a troublemaker. Like Kim liked a good argument. 181 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:14,440 Kim liked to be controversial in a useful way. 182 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:18,360 And I think one of the ways that he was really keen on that was 183 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:21,840 to help younger people in their career or newer people in their 184 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:25,440 career, get involved and help them to be controversial, help 185 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:27,280 them to bring something a little bit different to this story. 186 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:30,760 So we're super thrilled to be able to continue that legacy and 187 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:34,200 then to build upon them. And that challenge of thinking 188 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:37,880 right is something I think it's very healthy for the industry at 189 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:39,920 large because if we just take, OK, this is how we've always 190 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:42,440 done it, how are we ever going to grow and move forward in the 191 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:44,240 industry? I want to ask you, I know we're 192 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:47,360 going to get to talk about Kim Cameron, but you also do the 193 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:50,000 Vittorio Vitocchi award too. Can you guys talk about what 194 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:53,160 that means and I guess who the recipients of that might be and 195 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:54,840 how does that process look like? Yeah. 196 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:58,000 So the Vittorio Portaccio award is a little bit different. 197 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:01,360 So whereas the Kim Cameron award focuses on people that are new 198 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:05,080 to the industry, even sometimes students, new grads, people like 199 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:09,200 that, the VBA focuses on people that are more tenured in their 200 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:11,000 careers. They're focusing on digital 201 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:12,840 identity standards and academic work. 202 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:17,360 So they get to basically create a plan of study for what events 203 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:19,800 they want to go to, to contribute to their very 204 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:21,240 critical work on various standards. 205 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:24,120 For example, we have one awardee that is going to work on Skim 206 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:26,280 next year. So we are funding her to go to 207 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:29,400 two different IETF events. We have another awardee who is 208 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:32,120 an academic that'll be presenting his own research at 209 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:34,960 the International Conference on Conceptual Modeling, which is 210 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:38,280 very, very cool. So they it just has a very, very 211 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:40,520 different focus on kind of the different ends of the spectrum 212 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:44,360 of somebody's career. And I think the the important 213 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:47,280 part, especially with the award honoring Victoria's legacy is 214 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:50,800 his passion for standards. Like we were very determined to 215 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:52,680 make sure we continue that legacy. 216 00:10:52,680 --> 00:10:56,240 And so being able to sponsor both academics and practitioners 217 00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:59,520 to get involved in standards or to continue to be involved 218 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:02,440 because one of the things wearing a slightly different 219 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:05,360 hat, wearing My ID Pro hat, we know that there's a great deal 220 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:07,240 of interest in applying standards. 221 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:10,320 However, there's also less of an interest to participate in the 222 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:12,360 process. And that's a strategic 223 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:14,040 vulnerability for the industry, right? 224 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:17,520 We've got to facilitate more people getting involved and dive 225 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:18,760 is just one of the ways to do that. 226 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:22,400 So I remember the name of the conference of Digital ID World. 227 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:26,640 I wanted to throw that in. The IDW man that was that was 228 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:29,520 kind of the 1st right. That was Eric Norland, Phil 229 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:31,760 Becker. It was the first identity 230 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:35,480 conference and it was I was there when Kim did the, the, 231 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:37,880 the, the laws. I remember just sitting there 232 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:41,360 like, I don't know what the word reify mean. 233 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:43,760 It's like I was like, he's using really big words. 234 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:47,360 I have no idea what's going on. I mean, overtime got to learn 235 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:49,200 about, but yeah, man, that was it. 236 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:52,000 Was it? Was super cool like that's when 237 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:56,240 I realized this digital identity spaces for me because it wasn't 238 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:59,400 just ones and zeros. It was like philosophy. 239 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:02,560 I thought it was super cool. Anyway, one thing I wanted to 240 00:12:02,560 --> 00:12:05,720 come to close this part of the conversation for listeners. 241 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:09,960 If they want to get involved with the IAF or play a role in 242 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:13,800 supporting the organization, how do you recommend they do that? 243 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:22,080 So we are, our programs are 100% sponsored by well our 244 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:25,760 supporters, individuals and organizations like the OIDF. 245 00:12:26,680 --> 00:12:30,320 So one way to contribute is literally to contribute dieath 246 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:33,880 dot link slash donate One of the easiest ways to do it. 247 00:12:34,560 --> 00:12:37,120 One of the things that we're really excited about for next 248 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:42,160 year is to build more outreach programs to universities to 249 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:45,120 start addressing a pipeline problem of where do we build new 250 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:47,600 practitioners? Where can we find where can we 251 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:51,600 instill some interest in it? Like Grace had the sort of the 252 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:54,920 sense like, wait a minute, this privacy thing, there's like some 253 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:57,040 ties to this other thing. It seems to be called identity. 254 00:12:57,040 --> 00:12:59,520 What's the heck's out about? And Kim, this Kim guy is talking 255 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:01,640 about something, but we need more people like that, right? 256 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:04,960 So we are looking to build relationships with the 257 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:08,720 universities to find ways that we can maybe build identity 258 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:11,920 education programs, but also to find new opportunities and ways 259 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:14,600 for we that we can help. Like we don't have all the 260 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:17,320 answers in this. So if you're listening, you 261 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:20,400 know, if you're working in higher education research and 262 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:22,720 you're like, oh, you know, you should talk to XYZ professor, 263 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:24,680 reach out. There's a contact form on the 264 00:13:24,680 --> 00:13:26,920 website. We'd love to talk to you because 265 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:30,760 we want to figure out ways to start building a larger, more 266 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:33,120 diverse population of practitioners, and we want to 267 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:34,840 start, frankly, as young as we can get. 268 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:37,920 And we'll have a link in our show notes too, for people to 269 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:42,120 find that make it easy to find. DIDIAF dot link for sure. 270 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:44,480 Great. So let's get back to you because 271 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:47,080 we've been talking awful lot about Kim Cameron and his laws 272 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:50,000 of identity. Was there a specific law that 273 00:13:50,560 --> 00:13:53,240 kind of drew you into the space? Like, OK, I want to join these 274 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:55,720 these wild people on the identity side. 275 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:59,240 How does how did that come around or maybe influence maybe 276 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:04,400 your perspective on the way that identity and was was manifesting 277 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:05,680 within your life? Right. 278 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:08,840 They're all very interconnected. So whether it's just Bible 279 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:11,720 parties or consent control, they all relate so closely. 280 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:16,160 I think the genius is is that it's not technical specific in 281 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:19,360 all aspects. It's philosophical, it's legal, 282 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:22,240 it really goes through a bunch of different domains and 283 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:25,160 explains how we should be governing those interactions. 284 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:29,800 So I think just the genius of the words really scoops to 285 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:33,440 people from all sides of the privacy into all sides of the 286 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:38,120 digital identity world and can govern how we stretch our 287 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:41,400 interactions online. I think it was very clear to me, 288 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:43,840 which really spoke to me as someone who doesn't have a 289 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:46,960 background here and can't understand some of the acronyms 290 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:49,720 that I've been learning this week and needs to go back and go 291 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:51,280 through that. But it was really easy to 292 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:54,040 understand and get behind. And I think that was what really 293 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:56,160 do, man. And I think that's one of the 294 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:58,280 one of the things that people really need to realize is you 295 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:01,320 don't need to be a technical person to be in digital 296 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:04,000 identity. There's so much more to this 297 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:06,320 space. It's not just coding, it's not 298 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:09,840 just configuration, it's project management, program management, 299 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:14,160 communications, it's social engineering within your, within 300 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:16,520 your organization to drive support, right? 301 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:19,120 Things like that. We call that politicking. 302 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:23,960 IPS There is a little bit of a mayoral aspect to it, right? 303 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:26,520 Shaking hands, kissing babies, right, That sort of thing. 304 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:29,440 But there is so much more room within the identity space. 305 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:32,880 I'm glad that hopefully that message is getting out because I 306 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:34,920 think it's a perfect example of like, yeah, not everybody is a 307 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:36,960 coder. I'm not a coder, but I know 308 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:38,240 identity. I've been in the space long 309 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:40,440 enough where it's like, I feel like I can contribute in other 310 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:44,320 ways that isn't, you know, I would say turning a screw, but 311 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:46,880 it'll be more like, you know, typing in a code or anything 312 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:49,800 like that. So I'm very excited that that's 313 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:52,000 starting to hopefully get out more for people. 314 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:56,760 Yes, it agrees. You know, I think look at the 315 00:15:56,760 --> 00:16:00,600 loss of identity if you, I'm trying to say, OK, this is an 316 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:04,240 idealistic set of laws that would be great if they were 317 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:06,840 actually like the world was following them. 318 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:10,520 You know, for example, that people should control what data 319 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,480 they pass and that only a minimal amount of data gets 320 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:16,120 passed. And if everyone followed that, 321 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:18,800 the world would be a better place, I think. 322 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:24,520 But I'm wondering, did is it, is your perspective kind of cynical 323 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:28,080 now that you said, all right, these ideas have been out here 324 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:32,480 for almost 20 years. They're not followed in in many 325 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:34,440 cases. You look and there's some really 326 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:38,080 bad examples. How did you kind of like take 327 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:41,240 that and put a filter on it? Or did it make you become 328 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:42,840 cynical? Right, exactly. 329 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:46,080 You read the laws and you see this utopia of how a perfect 330 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:48,840 society can be, and then you realize they were written 20 331 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:51,200 years ago and it's it hasn't panned out. 332 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:55,080 But I think I was very cynical from the legal side just because 333 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:57,640 you hear about so many data breaches and it seems like this 334 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:01,120 is an ongoing issue. But in reality, I think the laws 335 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:04,960 changed that because you see that there is a framework that 336 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:07,280 can be added, maybe not perfectly, but having an 337 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,720 identity layer on the Internet is something that can really 338 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:13,960 help structure the interactions. And I hope to see more 339 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:17,359 engagement from the legal side and fly into that as well, 340 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:20,839 because I think that could limit the way it's followed right now. 341 00:17:20,839 --> 00:17:23,240 That's a limitation that we have, that there's not enough 342 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:27,040 fly in. And once people can see that and 343 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:30,240 just have that as their base activities, that would really 344 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:33,400 change the way that the Internet is run right now. 345 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:36,120 Yeah. So you've got a legal 346 00:17:36,120 --> 00:17:42,240 background, and I'm curious, how do you leverage that legal 347 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:46,120 background and help move the idea of digital identity 348 00:17:46,120 --> 00:17:48,360 forward? Is there some intersection there 349 00:17:48,360 --> 00:17:54,560 where it's like, OK, identity, human rights laws, you know, 350 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:57,240 does that become Kim Cameron's laws, become part of the 351 00:17:57,240 --> 00:17:59,160 Constitution, right, things like that. 352 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:01,280 Or maybe it's an identity constitution or something like 353 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:02,680 that. We were. 354 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:06,480 So I'm going to go out of order here because we just recorded an 355 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:09,720 episode with Dean Sacks talking about death and the digital 356 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:11,800 estate. People aren't going to hear that 357 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:15,280 for a couple of weeks still, But I'm curious to get your 358 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:17,520 perspective on this from the legal side of things. 359 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:20,840 OK, What are things that we should be thinking about from 360 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:22,360 that perspective? And how do you see that 361 00:18:22,360 --> 00:18:24,280 background helping you push things forward? 362 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:27,480 I was very fortunate I spoke with him about this and I think 363 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:31,240 it's just a genius idea that hasn't been fully brought to 364 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:34,720 fruition, but needs to be this idea that tech isn't everything 365 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:38,560 that we do and that identity is a layer that is on law as well 366 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:41,760 and should be. So I think leveraging my 367 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:44,400 background in law has been really realizing all the 368 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:48,560 interconnections that are there, how you know, pass keys are a 369 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:51,880 wonderful, wonderful device that need to be really accessible to 370 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,880 all kinds of populations and how you can work through the equity 371 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:57,440 of that. And so I think they work 372 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:01,440 completely hand in hand. I think Kim Tamron's idea of a 373 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:04,360 layer of identity is already on law. 374 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,720 It's just not accepted, maybe to the point that it should be. 375 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:11,000 But they really go together completely with human rights and 376 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:14,080 leveraging technology. And also on the flip side, 377 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:17,120 making sure technology abides with human rights and is 378 00:19:17,120 --> 00:19:19,160 accessible. They all go hand in hand. 379 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:22,560 Get. Out you said topic surrounding 380 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:24,960 identity being taught in law school. 381 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:28,240 I mean, is this something that is being included in that human 382 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:31,160 rights conversation or how's it being approached? 383 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:35,120 Or are we just not there yet? It's really I was very fortunate 384 00:19:35,120 --> 00:19:38,040 that I had a professor who has tuned in to his fear and has 385 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:41,720 tuned into privacy and Internet. I think overall it's not as 386 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:44,840 connected as we should be, especially in human rights, and 387 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:47,840 I think that's why adding the educational aspect is so 388 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:51,000 important to all aspects. Graduate studies, undergraduate, 389 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:54,400 there's a real need and there's a lot of benefits that will come 390 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:56,880 with that as it slowly grows and advances. 391 00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:01,280 So it's a really great plan to have as both of those worlds 392 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:04,600 move forward. Yeah, I think what what Jeff is 393 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:08,720 referring to and how themes talk about death in the digital 394 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:12,720 estate. You know, we talked about what's 395 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:17,800 the solution as part of regulation and he said he thinks 396 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:20,680 so, right. And so I was kind of applying 397 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:25,520 that to just over all, all the elements of Kim's laws of 398 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:29,000 identity and thinking about GDPR, right. 399 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,960 That pushed privacy a lot further than a lot of countries 400 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,120 were ready to. But now you see countries like 401 00:20:36,120 --> 00:20:39,520 the United States coming around to say, all right, well, we need 402 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:42,040 to take this seriously. There's a model that's been 403 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:46,120 around for a number of years. Do you see something like that 404 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:50,600 potentially being the path forward for these laws? 405 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:52,640 Definitely. I think with death in the 406 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:55,760 digital estate, you have this idea of justifiable parties and 407 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:59,320 who should have access to that when you pass on and how can we 408 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,840 make that a legally secure and also feasible route. 409 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:05,440 I think that is clear connections. 410 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:09,160 And so going back to the more broad standards approach, which 411 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:13,080 would be the laws of identity and instead of more specific 412 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:17,440 that can have really great effects on identity and making 413 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:21,640 guidelines going forward. Is there a specific challenge 414 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:26,120 that that jumps out at you as far as OK, you're you're getting 415 00:21:26,120 --> 00:21:28,520 in this space? Like why haven't we addressed 416 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,280 this yet? Like is there something that has 417 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:34,480 jumped out yet to you? I think so. 418 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:39,080 I think there's a lot of imposter syndrome going between 419 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:41,800 the world's because I don't have any technical background. 420 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:45,720 I being here, I realized that that's not a barrier of entry in 421 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:47,600 any way. But I think there still is this 422 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:50,720 idea that if you're not a tech person, you don't fit into this 423 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:55,400 world, and vice versa with law. But just seeing that as a 424 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:58,440 boundary that doesn't really exist and working through that 425 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:01,520 is, I think, the biggest thing towards moving those worlds 426 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:06,560 closer. I have a bias here that I think 427 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:10,200 some people would just go to medical school or law school to 428 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,240 make a lot of money. But I get the sense that you're 429 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,040 in it for much more. And I'm kind of wondering, I'm 430 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:18,840 sure you thought about your future and how you going to take 431 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:21,720 what you're learning here and kind of these learnings that 432 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:27,120 you've had with law school and now tying it to technology and 433 00:22:27,120 --> 00:22:30,000 wondering how do you see using that in the future? 434 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:34,080 It's a great question. I think when I look at my future 435 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:37,840 and how those worlds combine, I think in any job you always have 436 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:43,200 to have an eye on both of them. And right now, looking at issues 437 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:48,480 of humanitarian law and human rights law in general, I think 438 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:50,720 that necessarily has to combine the two. 439 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:54,360 So keeping those in mind, it's a little bit of an uphill battle, 440 00:22:54,360 --> 00:22:58,120 I think, in some contexts, posing the rationale of why they 441 00:22:58,120 --> 00:23:02,080 need to be connected. But you're right, I think a lot 442 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,960 of people go to law school just because it's the path forward. 443 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:08,400 And it seems like it's more definite in terms of what your 444 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,400 future will look like. But being open to having those 445 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,480 different worlds intersect and being open to a career that does 446 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:18,720 have identity would be, I think, very empowering to any new 447 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,360 lawyer. I think the real key is to have 448 00:23:21,360 --> 00:23:25,920 the right mentors along the way, you know, so finding some kind 449 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:30,520 of position, whether it's at a firm or whether it's in big tech 450 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:33,680 or something like that, but trying to identify who's going 451 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:36,600 to mentor you to help you get to that next level. 452 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:39,080 Exactly. I've heard over and over again 453 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:41,640 that people fall into this world by accident sometimes. 454 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:43,600 And I think maybe it's less than an accident. 455 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:47,080 You just have a mentor that really wishes you one critical 456 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,200 step forward. And for me, that was professors 457 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,640 in law school. But they can come from all 458 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:55,120 sides, just having the mentorship to go further into 459 00:23:55,120 --> 00:23:58,240 the digital identity space. I think you've picked a great 460 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:02,280 spot to be in because I can't imagine digital identity, 461 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:06,600 privacy being any less important to go further along here. 462 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,680 And now we start to think about things like AI and what that's 463 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:12,600 going to do for things. You know, I think you're, I 464 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,160 think you've got a great background to really be getting 465 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,880 into the space now, because there are so many concerns that 466 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:24,040 people have around how are we going to govern and interpret 467 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,040 how data that's being collected about us? 468 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,040 And we're all, we're all consumers of identity in 469 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,600 addition to be in it. Is it appropriate for XYZ 470 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:36,000 company to be leveraging this set of data to do this other 471 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,480 thing, right? Or hey, let's let's create 472 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:44,440 Grace, the AI chat bot that is an expert in law and digital 473 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:46,560 identity. Are you OK with that? 474 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:48,200 Right. I mean, how And then what 475 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:50,400 happens with that kind of stuff? So I think I love your 476 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,280 background because I think there's going to be a big need 477 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,520 and a growing need for that. Definitely. 478 00:24:56,520 --> 00:25:00,400 And laws and it's AI fails as well widely publicized. 479 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:04,480 And so I think trying to navigate that world with an eye 480 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:09,240 of how it can be impactful and how can we best use not misuse 481 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:13,880 is important. Yeah, I think identity data and 482 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:18,440 how it gets used with an AI, what are the borders between 483 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,280 ownership of data between Kelso will do. 484 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:24,760 That's going to be a big, you know, thing to solve in the 485 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,320 future. But Speaking of mentors, you got 486 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:31,680 2 mentors next to you of the day and Ian and Aaron, I was 487 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:38,200 wondering what advice might you each individually give to Grace 488 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:43,080 in terms of, you know, how to be, how to make an impact on the 489 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:47,800 world of identity? I would just say like first of 490 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,320 all to take it step by step. I know that you said that you've 491 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:53,240 seen a ton and already are inspired by a lot of the 492 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,760 conference and it can be really easy to get, I think overwhelmed 493 00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:58,400 by how much new information there is. 494 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,280 So the first best thing that you can do is you already have this 495 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:04,560 great background. You're very well spoken, you're 496 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:06,760 clearly very smart. I think the best thing that you 497 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:10,200 can do is give yourself time to develop as a professional, 498 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:14,720 develop your identity, expertise and anything that you contribute 499 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,000 back to the industry in this really important sector is going 500 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:22,280 to be, I think, impactful. I think taking a mentor, as we 501 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:24,680 talked about earlier during WID will be super useful. 502 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:27,920 Taking additional mentors, I mean, and yeah, just taking more 503 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:31,360 time to in addition to us, we're here of course as well. 504 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,760 But yeah, I think being confident in that focused voice 505 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,480 that you'll develop over time is going to be one of the key 506 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:44,480 things to how you'll. Contribute I mean, I think from 507 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:46,440 my perspective, something I learned from privacy 508 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:51,320 practitioners was to ask a question of what else could this 509 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:55,040 information be used for? And that kind of curiosity, I 510 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,800 think was is really important because not only is that in some 511 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:02,800 regards the genesis of our privacy impact assessment, but 512 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:06,560 it's also as an identity practitioner, a how do we think 513 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:08,960 about protecting this? How do we think about whether we 514 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:10,800 need it in our identity systems or not? 515 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:14,640 Like, so the question of what else is this or could it be used 516 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:19,840 for is incredibly useful as a professional, right? 517 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:24,080 And that curiosity of how is this is my lane, yeah, but how 518 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:25,960 is it impacted by this thing over here? 519 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,640 And how could it be used or benefited or could there be a 520 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,080 detriment? I think that's a really powerful 521 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:32,720 thing. And just like keeping that kind 522 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:36,360 of curiosity and openness and sort of a habit to be like, what 523 00:27:36,360 --> 00:27:39,160 else is this used for? Where else? 524 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:41,720 Why? And like that I think is a 525 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,360 really powerful thing because once you have that sense, then 526 00:27:44,360 --> 00:27:46,920 how you apply it, how we use it, how we protect it, that becomes 527 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:48,960 a really different conversation and a really powerful 1 so. 528 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,200 You have to forgive me, I get all choked up sometimes just 529 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,720 talking about identity. Grace, what's next? 530 00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:00,480 Like what are what are you most looking forward to as you get 531 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,680 into this space? Like what is what's on your 532 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:07,880 horizon right now? I think next for me is going 533 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:10,240 through my notes and looking at all the things I learned, all 534 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:14,520 the acronyms and figuring out what the terminology is and 535 00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:17,600 going back to the to the white board and mapping that out. 536 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:22,040 I've learned so much this week and I think I've really have so 537 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:25,960 many their passport into what a career in digital identity can 538 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:30,240 look like and what it can be. And so going back, I've tried to 539 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,080 be a sponge this week and now going back and figuring all of 540 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:36,920 that out will be important. And I think encouraging other 541 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,560 people as well from the legal side to because I'm involved in 542 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,640 this world is something that I really want to do as well and is 543 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,960 on my To Do List going on from this conference. 544 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:47,320 Yeah. It's funny you mentioned the 545 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:49,560 acronym thing, because I feel like that's the one thing that 546 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,920 this industry is really good at, is coming up with a wide variety 547 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:57,680 of acronyms. So Grace, you saw all these 548 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:01,000 people on stage presenting. Ian, of course is always 549 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,640 presenting. What do you think about that? 550 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:04,960 Is that something you want to do? 551 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,880 Get on stage in front of all these people and give a talk. 552 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:10,040 We were speaking about this earlier. 553 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:13,600 It seems very daunting here, everyone is so well spoken, but 554 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:17,200 you do have this big stage with the lights and so I've 555 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,760 definitely been very inspired watching both of you speak and 556 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,200 it's not something that naturally I really go towards, 557 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,120 but I think it's very inspiring to see in. 558 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,560 Some ways I think it's easier to get up on the stage in front of 559 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:33,880 all these people with the light shining in your face. 560 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:37,800 You can't see the people out in the audience, so you could be 561 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:39,920 presenting to an empty room and you wouldn't know the 562 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:42,760 difference. So here's here's the pro tip, 563 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:47,240 start a podcast broadcast to thousands of people and then 564 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:49,720 you'll lose that stage, right? And then go up there and then 565 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:52,600 realize, oh, none of that transferred and you have to 566 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:54,320 figure it all out to go when you get up on stage. 567 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:59,080 So just a little pro tip. Let's see. 568 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:03,960 So Grace, I'm curious if anything has jumped out at you 569 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:07,160 this week. So you've been here now for two 570 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:11,560 days roughly. What's like the what's the vibe 571 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:13,320 like? What were you expecting coming 572 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,520 in? Anything surprising, both 573 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,280 positive or negative? Like, let's get into that, OK? 574 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:23,280 Well, I have a serious and a non serious 1A serious one being the 575 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,520 connection to human rights is so apparent and I did not expect 576 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:29,280 that at all. I largely saw technology as 577 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:33,640 something being really removed from the ethical side of human 578 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,160 rights. And it is so deeply connected 579 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,920 and conversations that I've had about making technology 580 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,240 accessible where air populations that might not have multiple 581 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,880 forms of identification might not have access to pass key 582 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,600 technology. How can you include them in this 583 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:53,000 new wave and not completely exclude them moving forward? 584 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:55,840 Because I do think this is such a positive way to the future, 585 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:57,680 but you have to account for that as well. 586 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,920 And so that has been just really, really inspiring to see 587 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:03,720 and to hear. And I hope to have more of that 588 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:07,280 moving forward. The non serious conference 589 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,040 revelation has been I'm trying to wrap my head around tech 590 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:13,000 casual, tech formal, because it's very different than long 591 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:15,440 and everyone here is dressed differently. 592 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,920 So I'm trying to figure out what is the dress code. 593 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:22,880 I really like it because it is so open and casual and but 594 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:25,840 wrapping my head around that coming from a suit's background 595 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:30,120 has been a a new step for me. So you want to you want to 596 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:32,000 attract Jim. When it comes to the fashion 597 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:35,760 servant, possibly the best well dressed man and all of identity, 598 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:38,880 you go with Jim. He can set the tone for you. 599 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,760 Thank you and do my best. I have to bring something to 600 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:47,080 this craziness. That's when I tried to do it. 601 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:49,840 Actually, this is very muted. It is for me. 602 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,600 Yeah, I was expecting like a flashy jacket or. 603 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:57,240 Something yeah, sometimes they do like a like a tuxedo jacket 604 00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,160 or something. But here's what happened was 605 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,640 I've been on the road for over a month without going home due to 606 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:07,040 the hurricane. And so I have what I had in my 607 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:11,400 back last meeting I was, I was like a stuffy business meeting. 608 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,560 So I could have gone out and spent some money at Macy's 609 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:17,120 though. Your your commitment to the bit 610 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:19,120 is starting to wane a little bit, yeah. 611 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:21,880 Well, there's always Gartner in December. 612 00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:26,480 So Speaking of dressing at conferences, I think we should 613 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:31,200 probably do like a quick rating on most formal to least formal. 614 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,800 And I feel like Gartner tends to be a little more formal. 615 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:39,200 New. For better or for worse, I'm 616 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:42,120 going to say ideniverse is somewhere in the middle. 617 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,120 And I think this one is a little bit more casual. 618 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:48,800 Ian, you're shaking your head and seeming to like, where do 619 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:50,320 you feel like that from a rank perspective? 620 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:52,720 And I'm Erin, I want to get your thoughts on it as well. 621 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,920 Yeah, EIC 2 is I think missing from that list and I would 622 00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,920 probably put that at one of the more slightly formal ones. 623 00:32:59,960 --> 00:33:02,920 Do you what about identity adjacent conferences? 624 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,400 Because DEFCON is probably the most OIW. 625 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:10,120 I never had IOW. I've never been to IW either, 626 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,640 but. I know, I know, it's on my list, 627 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,080 but yeah, that's how I would put them in the rankings. 628 00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:19,040 And you think that's an unconference? 629 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:21,920 You can wear whatever you want. Yeah, sounds like my kind of 630 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:23,720 jam. I mean, I'm super comfortable 631 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:25,400 with that. I don't want to put a jacket in 632 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,160 a tie. Did you get around the Expo 633 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:29,920 hall? Did you get to talk to a lot of 634 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,120 the vendors? And did you get any of the 635 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:34,440 freebies, the swag? A little bit. 636 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:38,480 I'm still working up to it. I have some new T-shirts that I 637 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:42,880 will be working through, but I have to make a couple more laps 638 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:46,560 I think, as the days go on and. And get some more swags. 639 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:50,720 This is how I judge conferences is the the quality of the swag 640 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:54,400 and then how good their cookies or Donuts. 641 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:57,200 So last year there were Donuts here at night. 642 00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:59,040 It was after, I think it was after the food trucks, which 643 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:01,880 were last night. I didn't see any Donuts last 644 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:03,400 night. But I'm hopeful that there will 645 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,880 be a recovery tonight. If you're, if you're listening, 646 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:11,199 Andrew or Megan or Adrian. And I'm expecting Donuts or 647 00:34:11,199 --> 00:34:14,000 cookies later tonight. So I can neither confirm nor 648 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:18,560 deny that at Gartner events, Gartner analysts may or may not 649 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:22,400 make a Magic quadrant of swag up from the vendor hallway. 650 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:25,400 That might be true, that might not be true. 651 00:34:25,679 --> 00:34:28,800 But if it was true, it was pretty awesome to see it done 652 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:30,679 out again if I observe such a thing. 653 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:35,199 I think we just found our next, our next stage presentation 654 00:34:35,199 --> 00:34:38,360 where, you know, we don't learn anything about it any but we we 655 00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:41,520 analyze the conference that we're at and we do some sort of 656 00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,320 analysis on, OK, let's see, let's do a conference report 657 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:48,159 card swag, thumbs up, thumbs down and get like some judges 658 00:34:48,159 --> 00:34:51,000 out there, the food, the ambiance like. 659 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,360 That I think if you don't leave with a pair of socks, you really 660 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:55,440 weren't there. I'm not a sock guy. 661 00:34:55,639 --> 00:34:57,160 I know a lot of people are. Are you guys sock? 662 00:34:57,160 --> 00:34:58,800 I know you are. I know. 663 00:34:58,800 --> 00:34:59,560 I'm sorry. Definitely. 664 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:01,360 Those are funny ones. I'm just not a sock guy. 665 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:03,480 Are you a sock person, Grace? I would love some. 666 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:05,400 I didn't see any going around so. 667 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:07,000 I'll have to. Keep my radar up, yeah. 668 00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:11,200 But that's, but that's not on the conference, that's on the 669 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:13,400 vendors, right? They need to up their game. 670 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:14,960 Yes. That's true. 671 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:17,160 You a sock person? I'm not a big sock lady, except 672 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:19,880 I have my little past key socks, so we need to see if we can get 673 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:21,440 you a pair of those. That's the point. 674 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:24,680 OK, well, I think that's probably a good spot. 675 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:27,760 We can wrap it up for this week. Congratulations. 676 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:30,080 Thank you. Welcome to the identity family. 677 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:32,640 The water's just fine. Wait on end. 678 00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:35,080 It's a very, the one thing I really appreciate about this 679 00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:36,640 community is it's very welcoming, It's open. 680 00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:39,560 A lot of it is not secret sauce competitive stuff. 681 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:41,840 It's like we're all trying to do the right thing and protect our 682 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:44,760 users. And so I find that compared to 683 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:48,240 other industries, there's less of that competitive. 684 00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:51,600 Now, of course, vendors are vendors, but for the most part, 685 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:53,280 people seem to get along. It's been a lot of fun. 686 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:55,720 So I hope you'll come back and share with us and see you at 687 00:35:55,720 --> 00:35:58,000 another conference. And I'm going to ask you some 688 00:35:58,000 --> 00:35:59,000 questions again in the future. Back. 689 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,000 All right, So we talked to you this day. 690 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:03,400 What's changed, right? Have you grown more cynical? 691 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:07,360 Do we like, need to like do more or, you know, have you have you, 692 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:10,840 you know, maybe turned over a positive leaf on things? 693 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:12,360 So I'm looking forward to that in the future. 694 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:14,440 I'm. Looking forward to that as well. 695 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:16,720 Really looking forward to seeing the impact you make on the 696 00:36:16,720 --> 00:36:18,720 industry. Hopefully we can have you back 697 00:36:18,720 --> 00:36:21,840 5-10 years down the road. We can be the first person to 698 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:25,680 say you chose identity as a career rather than they choosing 699 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:29,560 you. And yeah, thanks for doing the 700 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:31,080 show today. Thank you. 701 00:36:32,240 --> 00:36:33,960 And thank you, Ian and Aaron for being on the show. 702 00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:36,440 We'll have links in our show notes for people to check out. 703 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:39,240 So we'll have LinkedIn profiles for all of you guys. 704 00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:43,880 Digital Identity Advancement Foundation DIAF dot link and you 705 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,720 can connect with us on the web, idacpodcast.com. 706 00:36:47,240 --> 00:36:49,680 We're on Mastodon and Twitter and all that stuff. 707 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:51,160 YouTube. YouTube. 708 00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:54,480 I knew you were going to hit it. idacpodcast.tv. 709 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:56,000 We'll take it right to our YouTube channel. 710 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,960 We are still actively trying to do more of the YouTube stuff. 711 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:03,400 And yeah, like and subscribe, do all those fun stuff and that'll 712 00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:06,040 help us get great guests like the folks we had here today. 713 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,800 And the 10 covers is like this. So with that look, I'd leave it 714 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:11,040 for this week. Thanks everyone for watching and 715 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:13,280 or listening and we'll talk with you all in the next one. 716 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,880 You've been listening to Identity at the Center. 717 00:37:19,240 --> 00:37:23,320 We hope you've enjoyed the show. Make sure to like, rate and 718 00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:26,960 review, and we'll be back soon. But in the meantime, hit the 719 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:30,360 website at identity@thecenter.com. 720 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:35,080 See you next time on Identity at the Center.