What I chose to do for the South by Southwest audience was, you
know, I talked a little bit about zero Trust and how they
say assume breach, right, which is a good assumption for both
people and organizations. I suggested as well, they need
to start assuming tracking. So assume breach, yes, assume
tracking, absolutely, which is, you know, that's not a piece of
advice that's sort of actionable other than making you think
before you share things you don't want to get out there.
You know, the other joke that might be made, and especially
given where Identiverse is held these days, you know, what
happens on the Internet stays on the Internet.
So, so like being aware is sort of the first thing in terms of
doing something about it as an individual that can be really
tough. There are things you can take on
board that require some friction in your life to do, and that's
not something I generally want to ask people to do when it
comes to identity professionals and what we can all do to
support the efforts to give people more choice, give people
more transparency when they are consumers of businesses and when
you work for those businesses. I think we have to, you know, if
we take ID Pro's vision seriously, we have to try it and
do that. And that requires understanding
the value that is being created for the business of each of
those pieces of data. So when you were talking about
data governance, Jim, I totally agree.
The way that a privacy professional would see that is
it's kind of a risk assessment for each piece of data
collected. What I think we've been
forgetting is the value assessment.
This is identity at the center if it has anything to do with
IAM. This is the go to podcast now
your hosts Jim McDonald and Jeff Stedman.
Welcome to the Identity of the Center podcast.
I'm Jeff, and that's Jim. Hey, Jim.
Hey, Jeff, how are you? Oh, not so bad yourself.
Doing great. So I've got a theory I've been
working on, which is that we are at a current point, which is the
widest gap between laggard I am and next Gen.
I am. So we got Yvonne today as
everybody knows, right? It's in the title of the of the
show surprise. We're going to be talking a lot
of next Gen. stuff. I think every once in a while
we're like, we've run into a project and it's something like,
yeah, the way we do access is we've got this Word document and
we fill it out and it says make Eve like Jeff.
And then we just do that. And you're just like, oh boy,
you gotta be kidding me. And I think we're at the widest
gap. I think that that first scenario
isn't really that far from what you'd find maybe in more places
20 years ago, but now the the next Gen. is non human
identities, it's the decentralized identity.
So there's all these new areas that are cropping up and it's
getting more interesting and like how does this all this new
technology fit into what we're doing?
But there's unfortunately still organizations that are
struggling with that basic blocking and tackling.
So, OK, so I think I know where you're going with it.
I don't know if I agree though, only because you and I in our
day jobs, we see pretty much the worst of I am right, you don't
call identity consultants and things are going great, right?
It's like all I need help with something and a lot of the
companies that you and I deal with, would you, I don't know if
I would call them laggards. I would call them average as far
as IA maturity goes, because there are still a lot of
organizations, too many that still haven't made investments
that I would call like basic IAM technologies.
And I think of things like identity governance, you know,
to help with automation and things like that.
And I think of, you know, privileged access management
tools. And then, you know, I think the
most investment that's happened over the last five to 10 years
has really been more on the authentication side, especially
when COVID hit, it was like, wow, everybody's working from
home and remember how we didn't have MFA.
Well, we'd better sure have it now.
So let's get that rolled out. And so I think authentication
has sort of become relatively standard, but I don't know if I
would call laggard and next Gen. just knowing how many companies
haven't even caught up to the what we what you were kind of
referring to as like the laggard part.
I think that's pretty average. It's far rarer that I see like
next truly next Gen. I am, and I don't mean like a
fancier IGAI. Think of things that are more
like API based. They're using things like shared
steel framework or Cape or, you know, other types of
orchestrations that are almost UI less.
It's it's orchestration, it's policy based, it's adaptive,
right? And it's using data rather than
and just another way to collect a form on somebody, whether it's
a word form or a ServiceNow form or whatever it may be.
Like I see getting rid of that touch point as really sort of
the next Gen. and then using the data off that to do policy based
decisions, risk based decisions, right?
Things like that. Yeah.
I think that you're right about the authentication piece.
I think that's where a lot of organizations have put their
investment. I think that by laggard, you can
say laggard in terms of investing in other areas that
are also important. Privileged access management in
terms of user management in terms of, you know, on the
external side where you have a lot of people trying to
penetrate. But I also think when you talk
about some of these next Gen. things like non human identity
management, when like like decentralized identity, you
can't even worry about those things until you get the basic
blocking and tackling done, right.
Well, you could worry about it. I don't know if you can do
anything about it, but you can certainly worry about it, that's
for sure. But let's look non, you know,
NHI non human identity, right? It's it's sort of like the
identity topic du jour for the year 2025 and probably towards
the end of 2024 is when it first really kind of got into the
limelight. But it's not new.
Non human identities have been around forever.
I mean, there's service accounts that have been around forever,
you know, go back as far as the mainframe, right?
And I'm sure even before that, right punch cards, you know,
probably had some of that too as well.
So when we say non human identity, I think all we're, I
think what we've started to do is recognize that these
identities do need to be managed as well, whether they are a
carbon based life form behind it or not, or if we want to, you
know, debate the semantics of account versus identity.
The problem is not new. It's almost like saying, well,
identity's the new perimeter. It's been the perimeter for like
25 years, 30 years. So it's just, it's, it's getting
hot right now, which is cool. Like, Hey, I'm not going to
knock it. Like that's great for people in
the IM space, but I, I, I don't, I don't know if I agree with
like that's like the future. I think it's the now and it's
the has been, not has been. That's probably what I want to
put it, the history, but I hopefully that makes sense.
I'm not saying it goes away. It's definitely going to be part
of the future as well though. I, I kind of feel like non,
you're right in terms of non human identities have been
around for as long as we've been in IT, but the problem has
grown, right. So there are more devices on the
network. The device has more importance
in terms of the overall authentication picture, for
example. So there's the device side of
it, but then there's also the workload side of it, which I
think you referenced. Sure, you have service accounts,
but you also have robotic process automation.
You also have people doing things with like Kubernetes and
Docker and infrastructures code and, you know, managing your
cloud environment. And so when I start to think
about those things, look, if you have an organization that's like
using word forms and copy as are you probably doing a lot with
Docker, well, I don't know. There might be other people like
we put our money there. We want to make our
infrastructure hum, or we hire somebody who's like a whiz kid
and they're going and doing those things.
And they might be wearing dockers.
So there you go, there's your docker container.
There you go, you pulled it all together right there.
I think I know where you're going with it.
Like, OK, yeah, I mean, that makes sense.
I just, it's like, I think sometimes we forget about the
average population. And I don't mean that
negatively. I mean where most people are
from like a company perspective, a maturities protected, a very
capability perspective. There's just a lot of companies
that are still kind of scraping by.
And I mean, you and I know this, right?
We talked to a lot of really smart people, like, yeah, they
know what they should be doing, but they don't get the funding
to do what they want to do. Or, you know, their strategic
investments just aren't there yet to, like, modernize or
improve things. And it's painful.
And that's why I refer to all these I am heroes out there that
literally make the company work through sheer effort and will in
spite of, yeah, I have to send a fax to get an account to me.
I mean, like, it's 2025, but that still happens.
It's crazy. Yeah, so I'll be interested to
hear what Eve has to say. Is the this chasm or this gap
between laggards and next Gen. I am.
Is it worthy of a Venn chart? We'll find out.
I, I, I mean, we, we, we probably already know the answer
to that. So for sure we're recording this
a little bit advance. I'm going to tear it on the 4th
wall a little bit. We have not yet gone to EIC, but
we're trying to make sure we have content to kind of carry
over EIC and our vacations and things like that.
So for people who are listening, just know that we are still yet
to go there and, and he's been gracious enough to join us and
give us kind of a preview of, of what she's going to talk about.
But don't forget we still have an Identiverse discount code.
We're going to be there. We're going to be just doing
some cool stuff. So if you visit us there in Las
Vegas, June 3rd through the 6th, if you use the code IDB 25-I D
AC25 to get you 25% off, it'll be in our show notes.
And it's also on our homepage, IDC, podcast.com.
If you just Scroll down and it'll be right there.
But the cool thing we're doing and and we've started to, to get
this out there is we are bringing the Identis Squabble
game show to the Identiverse Conference.
So if you are familiar with what we put on at the Authenticate
conference late last year with their help, we are, we are
rebranding it slightly at least for the identity of the Center
to Identis Squabble. I'm going to be the MC slash
game show host and Jim's going to be a team captain and I think
we're going to do IDAC versus ID pro.
So I think we've reached out to Heather and she seemed to be in
for it. You guys are going to pick your
own team mates. Neither of you will be able to
see the questions in advance. Only I have access to that.
So I'm creating a a list of identity questions, non human
questions, and maybe some Vegas questions to kind of keep things
fun. We'll probably have time for
maybe 3 or 4, but we're going to be kicking off the Expo sort of
reception party that Tuesday night when things kind of open
up for that kind of stuff. So I'm looking forward to that
and hopefully people will come out and see that.
I'm trying to make it also a little more audience
interactive. So maybe we'll have like life
lines that we can do where, you know, if people aren't sure of
answers, they can ask the audience, right?
Or things like that. So I'm very much looking forward
to that. Jim, do you have your teammates
lined up yet or are you still working on that?
No, I still have to work on that.
So I I mean, you just announced news that I wasn't even aware
of. So Heather has agreed to be Team
ID Pros captain. I mean, yeah, you should check
your e-mail. Well, I'm hey man, I've got some
other things going on. Sorry.
There is nothing more important than I, Dennis.
Squabble, Jim. This is the most important thing
happening in the entire world in the next, let's call it month.
Two months. I know.
Not just for me, I mean for the entire world.
Exactly. Yeah.
So I'd AC versus ID pro. I think I reached out to Eve and
I think that she's not going to be there, right, Eve?
I'm going to be there for a little while.
I'll probably have to miss Identisquabble, but I really
like saying identisquabble. Yeah.
Can I just say? I don't know if there's any
reason to go to the conference if you're going to miss
Identisquabble, but I'm just saying I'm.
Sorry to miss that part. I want T-shirts out of that
though. There ought to be T-shirts.
There should be T-shirts. Well, maybe we can make it a
recurring thing. And, you know, we'll see.
We'll see what we can do. It's fun.
You're not going to learn anything, but you're going to
have fun and be entertained. So that's kind of the point of
it. All right, let's let's formally
introduce Eve. She's a digital identity
futurist and strategist. She's the Co inventor of XML,
SAML, UMA and maybe other things that I'm not aware of.
Privacy by design ambassador. She's a board member.
She's one of the IM rock stars of the band ZZ off.
She's the president and founder of Ven factory and this is her
seventh time on the show. Welcome back, Eve.
It is a delight and a mystery at the same time.
That's how we like it on here. We don't know what we're doing.
Seventh time on the show. I think I mentioned before we
hit record that you're approaching Andrew Shikiar, A
Fido Alliance fame, who I think is the current record holder.
I'm sure we'll get Andrew on later this year as we kind of
get closer to the Authenticate conference.
But you've been very generous with your time.
You are actually. And and Jim talks about this
royal time. I don't know if he's ever
mentioned it to you. You're like our first big get
for the show and we were so excited.
It was like, Oh my gosh, like Eve wants to do the show.
Like does she know who like what we're doing?
And, and you probably do and that's fine, but you're you're
very generous with your time and joining it to us.
We'll never forget that. It was kind of the ones like,
oh, you actually could get some people on this show that people
have heard of. You had all the signs of
greatness even then. Well, flattery gets you
everywhere in this show, so, you know, I'll take it anytime we
can get it. It was October the last time you
were with us and I think actually you recorded maybe that
one with Jim, because I think I was travelling.
And so we've been kind of talking about things in there.
But I'd love to understand what's new in your world since
the last time you were on back in October.
Gosh so much. I mean you know I've been
growing ven factory. I've got some exciting new
clients preparing 1/3 white paper that I've written with a
co-author for the first time. We're hoping to launch it in a
kind of an e-commerce site that I I'm working on putting up and
I got this great opportunity to go speak to South by Southwest
about identity. That is so cool.
I mean, how how crazy is that to have, you know, like an identity
talk at South by Southwest. I joke about like, hey, they
should make a, you know, let's turn ideas into a Netflix show.
But I mean, that's pretty close to the same kind of concept,
right? I mean, what was it like being
at South by Southwest? It it's fun.
It was fun for sure. I did have an experience like 10
years ago where Joni Brennan was involved and a few other folks
from the identity world. We were talking about IoT
privacy back then. And so they've had some
representation of, you know, great tech topic topics over
time. But like, I wanted to be sure to
reach a whole bunch of folks who might not have identity context
at all, even though they said, you know, don't be too high
level, you know, I, I didn't want to leave people behind, you
know, So, so I really just tried to cover why individuals should
care, why businesses need to care and provide advice for
everybody. So yeah, I had that opportunity.
It was it was awesome. And, and just being in the, you
know, the zeitgeist of South by and walking around Austin with a
bunch of other folks hearing music from every corner that,
you know, it doesn't suck. I mean, that's totally like
Rockstar, you know, mentality, right?
At that point, it's like, all right, we're going to hear from
Eve, but I am. And then here comes this major
band. I'm somebody I actually
recognized from the movies walking down the street.
Yeah, it's kind of like that. I love your website.
I think it's fantastic. It's one of the one of the more
well designed ones that I've they've come across.
I want to know how do I meet the star of Ven factory.com?
And by that I mean your adorable puppy or dog that is in your
like, welcome video. Sabrina.
Yeah. You know, she's way more popular
than I am. I should have had her join me
today. I'm happy to introduce you to
She cares about about identity, but she doesn't know why.
Now, did she have a rider to get into that video where they're
like, you know, only carrot biscuits and green beans or, you
know, something like that? Like, what was the what was her
union rate to have her, you know, be the talent on air?
Extra TREATS, basically. That's right, you can't say the
word out loud because it'll. Summon well trained yeah you're
CAMP you can't say WLK I'm. Flying in, you're like treats.
Do we hear treats? No.
It's a great website. I encourage people to go check
it out. I love the video.
Anytime I think I see a dog on camera with like, people, it's
like, all right, yeah, I'm in. Sign me out.
Who doesn't love dogs and who doesn't love Venn diagrams?
So the answer to your question before is yes, of course.
I'm sure there is some sort of chart that can be made.
Is it a is it a Venn diagram when the circles completely
overlap? I mean it's like who loves dogs
and Venn diagrams? Like it's the same people.
I mean, there is that ID pro Slack channel that's all about
Identi pets. So, you know, I think there's
probably a pretty good close to to overlap, perfect overlap
among the populations. I will say this though, so if
you show me the the latest Venn diagram that you're working on,
it looks different. It wasn't like 3 intersecting
circles, right? It's kind of like a.
Correct. I don't know, it looks.
More like a. It looks more like a, I don't
know, Sr. 71 Blackbird kind of shape.
Now you're speaking my language. Yeah.
Blackbirds are an awesome jet. Yeah.
I used to have a poster of that on a wall at one point.
Yeah, they're pretty, pretty cool.
Icky. Yeah.
It turns out you can't do sets if, if you're comparing sets and
you have more than three sets that you want to compare, you
can't use circles. It's just sort of impossible.
So you either have to have sort of rounded ellipses or you have
to have kind of blocks, or you can be more creative than that.
And so it's a four set then, because I'm comparing 4 things.
And it's all about kind of stakeholders and reasons to do
identity. And you know, I, I, I think
there's four basic reasons to do identity.
And the problem is everybody in the organization, not to mention
just regular human beings who who have a stake, who care in
the results. So is this research that we'll
see at some point, like where's this in the life cycle of the
generation of it? Yeah, You know, I shared an
early version of it I think at EIC previously and I've done
some more work. It's definitely going to be in
the EIC talk. So you know, people who may be
watching this afterwards will have seen, but I'll be sharing
it from stage. It's turning out to be very
productive for me to be able to see what advice that I can give.
Not just tech vendors about like well, who's your buyer persona
kind of thing, but also enterprises around how to make
sure that you have the right representation and have the the
highest bandwidth possible conversation around, you know,
who who cares about the outcomes and how to succeed and how not
to have somebody working against you, perhaps accidentally or
perhaps not. Accidentally.
I mean, that's the kind of stuff that I think people eat up
because I mentioned I am heroes early on.
And you know, the, the, the, the sad and unfortunate truth is
most of us are operating underfunded, under resourced.
Like there's just so much that needs to get done.
And so anything you can do to, you know, help convince the
right people to say this is an investment that is worthy.
Yeah, as much information you get on that, it's not going to
be the right answer for everybody, right?
But I think that the more inputs we get into that, you can take
this out if you're listening and shape your message to whatever
is most appropriate, you know, for your organization.
So. Totally.
And you were talking about sort of laggards versus next Gen.
You know, there's a lot of pull by clever people, innovators,
you know vendors who are trying out new solutions.
There's a lot of pull towards stuff that is just completely
new and it's hard to absorb. And, you know, I've spent a lot
of time, you know, working with kind of the sell side.
And, you know, this is not meant to be pejorative towards
anybody. But like, I think vendors live
in the future because they've got to do that pull.
They have to imagine, you know, what went wrong and how to solve
it. And they have to kind of be out
there and enterprises live in the past.
And it's not sort of a bad thing.
It's more like, you know, if you think about the population of
cars, I don't know in any one country in the US, there's going
to be a distribution of ages of those cars, which is one of the
things that makes connected car and IoT hard.
Same thing with enterprise infrastructure.
It represents buying decisions, you know, of 20 years, of 50
years, of 100 years. So of course the average age of
that stuff is going to be older and it's why you have to deal
with legacy and have Shim APIs and all the rest of it.
So it's just the nature of the thing.
And that's where you get a lot of overlap too, like you're
trying to buy a product that is future facing, but oh by the
way, can it also support COBOL or Rack F?
Totally. I mean, I think there's been
some move off of AS4 hundreds, you know, among the banks over
time, but not 100%. Right.
I still see tons of insurance companies using, you know, a
mainframe in the basement runs their entire operation.
And it's, it's, it's crazy how much how, how much some of these
technologies have just lived longer than they probably should
have, but they do because they are serving a purpose.
And there hasn't been that key reason like, OK, now we've got
to go. Yeah, yeah.
This is the conversation that often happens about, you know,
are you selling vitamins or a painkiller?
And you know, if there's some big pain, OK, well, now there's
a motivation and you can effect change and take care of tech
debt and do all the rest of it. That's such a good analogy.
And hopefully they're like Flintstone vitamins and they
taste good. I know we want to get into the
EIC talk you're going to give here, but I do want to ask you
about an earlier conversation we had way, way, way back and that
was around like personhood credentials.
Any news in that area that that we should be kind of picking up
on? From my perspective, there's a
couple of interesting things. First of all, I'm seeing more
and more folks who are in the verifiable credentials game.
Also the biometrics game offering personhood kind of
services, right or personhood credentials delivered into
wallets. So I'm starting to see that
there's some uptick in, in adoption around that kind of
technology. The other thing that I've been
noticing is along with Dean Sachs and Mike Kaiser, I'm kind
of, I call myself the junior Co chair of the three of the the
death of the digital estate group, the Dade Group.
And we've been having kind of an interesting conversation around
do you need personhood information about somebody who's
passed away? So you know, we talked about is
a person. So I guess that sort of was a
person, you know, really did have a real world presence.
And these are things that are hard to solve because you're
not, not to be crude about it, you're like not doing liveness
detection in that case, right? So these are important pieces of
information. And what we've been learning
about kind of like the, I guess, looking at the government agency
infrastructure of the world around, like how do you sort of
inform important other downstream services that
somebody has passed away? Like it's, it's by no means a
clean system with good data. It's, it's a mess.
So those are some of the considerations that are that I'm
sort of coming across as I look across the landscape.
So it's interesting that that that viewpoint of is a person is
in current tense, was a person as in past tense, which leads to
me there is a also probably going to be a will be a person
as in future tense. So how do you manage something
that is past, present and future?
And I guess what does personhood mean?
Like can you define that? Is it as simple as it's a human
being, or is it beyond that? There's different levels of what
kind of information can be delivered about this notion. 1
The most obvious to us, you know, having been in the
industry for a long time, is kind of full identity
verification. So you're saying it's not just a
random person, You're saying it's a person who really lives
in the real world and this person presenting this
credential matches to that known real world person.
That's identity verification. It's a kind of is a person, it's
just very specific. There are other levels where
it's more like this entity in front of me trying to operate
this service or this application is is really alive, is really
operating it in the moment, which is, you know, on the other
end of that continuum and sort of in the middle is things we
see with like age assurance where you're doing age
estimation that's a kind of is a person of a particular category.
And so wherever you have things like age restricted purchases,
you know, there's laws around age restricted purchase of a
whole bunch of different things. In fact, in my South by
Southwest talk, I was showing how, you know, one state is, is
thinking about age restricting skin care.
Another one is age restricting, I don't know, other beauty
products. It's kind of weird.
So, so you can ask, you know, is a person older than 18?
It's kind of a species of personhood because it's less
specific than anyone in particular.
Does personhood extend to non persons?
So this idea of, you know, AI and agentic AI and all these
other bots and service accounts and non human identities, I feel
like there should be a way to verify those credentials as
well. So yeah, this really is the Venn
diagram AI versus the, you know, XYZ application, whatever it may
be. Is there a space for non
personhood in addition to personhood?
I could swear that one of Dave Birch's newsletters had one of
those wonderful cartoons about this, like, you know, swear
you're a bot or something. And that's, that's kind of, I
mean, we'd call that attestation right in the IoT world or device
or, you know, other non human entities.
And attestation of something is, you know, it's definitely a
thing. And I, I, I think it could be
valuable. You know, we have software
statements and things like that that we can use to assess
whether it's really the client app that we thought it was, for
example. So I think that it does
generalize across beyond humans, although as usual human versus
non human, say authentication, it's going to look different and
care less in the non human case about user experience.
So good. Let's talk about your EIC talk
at one-on-one level you're talking about stakeholder
management, which you know depending on what you're into
that might not sound super interesting, but you're really
talking about it in terms of this application in customer IM,
which I think, OK, that all starts getting interesting
because you're talking about these all these different
stakeholders outside of the technology space.
And even more than that, you're focusing on this space called or
these spaces called martech and adtech.
So all this starts to make you get really interesting really
fast. Let's start with what are
martech and adtech because those might be new terms for people.
Yeah. So martech is a very important
tech stack that marketing folks run.
And I would say the basis of it is kind of marketing automation,
the ability to send out all those messages to, you know,
that are personalized, that get people to buy, that get people
to go on to the buyer's journey. We've all experienced this.
Often times we talk about it from the privacy perspective of
being sort of stocked. But of course, a lot of us also
welcome this personalization in these digital products, in these
experiences. So martech is marketing
technology basically. And so anybody who's ever, you
know, in a Siam circumstance, you might have had to connect to
marketo and there's a whole bunch of, you know, folks who do
what they do. That's part of it.
Adtech is where you get into the, the data, data brokering
marketplaces of the world, the things that make you be tracked
with cookies or other similar technology and have you as a
kind of heuristic fuzzy picture of a human, be presented to
these systems so that they can call it retargeting.
Where, you know, that's how their ads get served to you and
are personalized to you. And you're like, I swear I was
just talking about this, you know, in, in the neighborhood of
a, of an echo device yesterday and suddenly I'm getting ads for
the thing I was talking about. You know, that's how that's
happening basically. So they very much care about
identity by the way, but not they don't see it at all in the
way that we see it. And it's kind of more expansive.
There's even a standard in the space, kind of a standard in
industry driven standard called unified ID 2 dot O that I see
very little talk about in our industry, but it's literally
based on top of open ID connect. And so in the Venn diagram of
that world and this world, that's one thing that's like
right in the center. But like, I don't think
anybody's really aware, you know, certainly on our side
about it. So this has tied a lot to like
e-commerce level CIA. I'm right.
Who are the stakeholders that we're talking about?
Who are the the the main participants?
It's, I would say, you know, you're, it starts at the CMO and
might be like a chief digital officer or something like that
as well. So, you know, we have data lakes
when we think about the security aspects of identity, you know,
we're interacting more and more with SoC teams like, you know,
we can talk about identity security and all the new
acronyms and things like that, where there's some interesting
tussles between the identity world and the security world and
where identity even lives in security.
But when it comes to this Siam world and the fact that
marketing and customer data management people own the
proposition and by the way they're making a lot of money
for that whatever company, that's where we really have to
care about the stakeholder question because I was looking
up, you know, so ID Pro has a great vision state on the
website and it talks about the disciplines of digital identity
and access management are globally seen as vital and
vibrant counterparts to privacy and information security.
That's great stuff. We don't have all the data or
all the use cases in our purview to be able to really execute to
that 100%. So that's why I think it's
important to kind of start to empathize with the whole
marketing side of the world and the customer data side of the
world because they absolutely have pains and needs around
things and identity going well. You know, looking at your
average description of Siam and all the things that it can do,
but they just don't know where to go to do better.
And certainly they don't know where to go to do better at some
of the privacy aspects. They, they, they interact a lot
with privacy professionals, with privacy leaders.
But again, there's, you know, separate goals and sometimes
competing goals there. Is your research and your work
focusing on consumers or customers of say a martech or ad
tech platform? Or is your research more about
how to run a mar tech grad tech platform from an identity
perspective? I guess I'd say where I came
into this picture, it started with the whole EIC 2024 thing
where I went up there and said consent is dead and started to
have a bunch of conversations about that.
And, you know, having been able to lean on a lot of great
research that's been done, so for example, by Internet Safety
Labs, of which I'm a board member, I have to say that and
some other folks like Cracked Labs puts out a huge amount of
great research. And it's so looking at all that
stuff, I was sort of like, wow, did you guys know this identity
resolution thing is scary. It's, you know, heuristically
figuring out people and it can do it really well.
And it has nothing to do with somebody logging in and
confirming that they're them. So it started there and then it
proceeded to what advice can I give identity practitioners and
identity leaders about this situation?
And so in the, in the, the paper called Consent is Dead that I
ultimately wrote, there's advice about that.
And then I got the opportunity to go speak to a bunch of
customer data people and Martech people.
And that was super interesting. I had to really rethink
everything and approach things from the perspective of really
doing the work of empathizing with them.
And one of the things that I'll share in the EIC talks, so
people may have seen this already, is there's a, a great
value framework that's been put together by a kind of marketing
wizard guy, Kyle Martinovich, the CDP value framework that's
customer data platform. And that's something that didn't
exist. CDPS didn't exist, you know,
back when, you know, we were all coming up with O auth and open
ID connect, but but it's existed for, you know, last 10 plus
years. And then everybody has one.
Any, you know, organization of any size that's consumer facing
has one. And so here I was talking to
these folks who care very much about that value framework, but
wouldn't have known where to slot in the identity value that
they can get by working with identity people.
So that's some of what I'll be sharing.
Yeah, I mean, I'm going to make up a fictitious scenario, but
let's say I sold training, right and I was able to get data from
Martech platform on where Eve lives.
Say you're coming to my website. Now I know where you live, I
know maybe something about your educational background and I
know something about your browsing history, So what you've
been looking at. So now I can build my portal to
have a specialized set up offerings.
That seems to me that all those different things lead to kind of
like a data governance question. Who owns those various pieces of
data? And then that branches out to,
well, who are the stakeholders? Who are, you know, making the
decisions around which of those data elements can be shared,
which we can use for what, what source of information we use to
overwrite those. I think you made mention to me
that you know there's like 2000 attributes that are tracked
about you that are kind of like these are just known like
everybody who uses the Internet, these are these are had on you.
Yes, basically that's true. And, and that stat is just so
crazy like to us hearing how how identifiable we are, even if we
didn't, you know, consciously share that information or the
right to, to have it be known. The average Siam profile, you
know, the average record might have 20 attributes.
And the profiles they have on you that you may not be
participating in are really at that two orders of magnitude
like 2000. And you can be identified, you
can be tracked. You know, these are when we
start talking about surveillance and a whole bunch of unpleasant
things. But the world is working this
way now. And it's, by the way, working
this way in Europe now despite GDPR and all the protections
that we think that they have kind of, you know, at higher
levels than maybe some other jurisdictions.
So what do you do about this because I think it's AI think
part of this is an awareness issue.
So I was talking with a friend of mine over the weekend and he
was blown away when I showed him the ads preferences in Facebook
and all the things that knew about him.
And he was not even aware that all this stuff was taking place
behind the scenes. And I feel like that is pretty
average. That's pretty common, right?
Unless you're in this space and you really care about it,
chances are you're reading the, you know, the ula that flashes
on the screen. Yep.
Except I just want to use the thing that I want to use.
What do we do about this? Because there is so much data
out there. And what happens if that data
somehow gets poisoned? If it's incorrect data or wrong
data, how do you correct it? How does it not impact, you
know, an algorithm somewhere that either denies you or shows
you things that you don't want to see or, you know, offensive
or whatever it may be? Like what can we do about this?
I mean, GDPR is one of the, you know, pieces of legislation that
gives people the right to go correct data that's incorrect.
But it's pretty onerous to do, right?
And I will say when I was asked that question after I finished
up talking about consent is dead last year, I was stuck for an
answer. What do you do?
What I chose to do for the South by Southwest audience was, you
know, I I talked a little bit about zero trust and how they
say assume breach right, which is a good assumption for both
people and organizations. I suggested as well.
They need to start assuming tracking.
So assume breach. Yes, assume tracking absolutely,
which is, you know, that's not a piece of advice that's sort of
actionable other than making you think before you share things
you don't want to get out there. You know, the other joke that
might be made and especially given where Identiverse is held
these days, you know, what happens on the Internet stays on
the Internet. So so like being aware is sort
of the first thing in terms of doing something about it as an
individual that can be really tough.
There are things you can take on board that require some friction
in your life to do, and that's not something I generally want
to ask people to do when it comes to identity professionals
and what we can all do to support the efforts to give
people more choice, give people more transparency when they are
consumers of businesses and when you work for those businesses.
I think we have to, you know, if we take ID Pro's vision
seriously, we have to try it and do that.
And that requires understanding the value that is being created
for the business of each of those pieces of data.
So when you were talking about data governance, Jim, I totally
agree. The way that a privacy
professional would see that is it's kind of a risk assessment
for each piece of data collected.
What I think we've been forgetting is the value
assessment. It's not done on a sort of datum
by datum basis at all. I think it's possible.
I know of some technologies that enable that kind of thinking,
but it surely requires all the different stakeholders to get
together to agree on what's the model and who's responsible.
Like if you could actually say we store this piece of
information, it's worth X to us, but it costs us X plus
something, Well now you can make an ironclad ROI case for not
collecting it anymore, putting it on the edge, making it
decentralized maybe. You know, I wonder if choice is
the keyword here. You mentioned it earlier.
I was OK, well, you know, what do we do about this?
And I don't know if there's actually a good answer for that,
right? I mean, it's just all this data
is out there. It's out of your control for the
most part. Is the future of data management
when it comes to things like privacy and all these meta
attributes that people are collecting, is it choice?
Is it as simple as yes, I will allow you to use my data in
exchange for this and because the service I find is valuable
and you know like Google Maps is a great example.
Nobody. You know, most people I say walk
around or have in their glove box actual physical maps
anymore. It is far.
Rare. Right.
I mean, I grew up the age of, you know, you had a physical
map. I lived in Northwest, you know,
or northeast Illinois in Chicago area.
So I had one for Wisconsin too, right?
And so I would have this map collection.
Now it's Google Maps or Apple Maps, or, you know, whatever
your mapping solution of choice is.
But those are free products in quotation marks.
You're the product at that point, right?
It's your data that you are trading in exchange for the use
of their service. So I think the awareness of, you
know, when, when you kind of say that to somebody who doesn't
think in these terms is like, oh, it's free.
No, it's not like you're the product, right?
Like it's, it's collecting data by you.
It's it's helping feed the algorithm that says where
there's a traffic jam on Google Maps by the number of phones,
right, that are lined up at A, at a, like you're contributing
to it, but you're also getting a benefit out of it.
And I think you've got the choice at, at that low.
You can either choose to use Google Maps or Apple Maps or
not. But a lot of these choices get
hidden behind menus and really they're a false choice.
Are you really going to walk around physical maps?
Sure. And.
There and there's some abuse in that, right?
You know, there's kind of they talk about dark patterns or
deceptive patterns of like, you know, making it easier to make
one choice over another. And you can like sort of create
a straight line to the business model from that.
And that's something I've advocated for a long time and
it's starting to be picked up in some places.
Is the privacy policy really should be an explanation of the
business model and what out of the three ways that you could
pay for the service, money, data, attention, eyeballs, are
they actually leveraging? And you know, you'd think it'd
be a simple thing of, well, you could do one or the other.
But then we had this whole sort of pay or OK scandal around,
well, are we leaving some people out because they can't afford to
pay to have privacy? So these are, these are
unresolved questions. I think in the meantime, we can
get sort of more incremental, incrementally improved systems
that do respect choice. You know, I do believe privacy
is context control choice and respect.
Those are, you know, hard things for a for an organization to
really sign up to all at once. But I think it's possible if we
work with the counterparts that are in charge of making money
off of data, plain and simple. Yeah, I have an example.
So I was going through some old mail and I get an updated
privacy policy from my auto lender.
And it had a like, here's how we use your data.
And one of the things was we share it with third parties.
Yes. And then it was whether or not
you could control it. The answer was yes.
And I was like, I'm going to save this.
I'm going to go tell them not to share my data.
And then I thought, like, am I actually going to spend the time
to go and do that? It seems like it would be a drop
in the bucket. Yeah, right.
And they probably aren't instrumented to do it well.
And how do you prove that they did it?
These are some of the questions. So we've been looking at it like
there's, there's ways to solve some of these, but the first
thing you got to do is assess the appetite of that
organization to change if you're working from within it, right?
You know, if you're working on some identity program within it,
you can start to ask how open are they to something a little
bit more innovative and turning away from the direct
monetization of the personal data.
And there are cases where that's possible, but there's kind of a
maturity ladder there. And I think you need to sort of
be responsive to what's possible there, otherwise you're banging
your head against a wall. You know, and I feel like, OK,
your mind goes to, well, we need more regulation.
But then you get regulations like everybody has like their
cookie policy now. It's like you can either accept
it or beat it. And it's like, so you just say
accept or you try and click close it without answering or
something like that. So I don't know if more
regulation is the answer. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's
not because I think more regulation.
Led to. Be getting that, yeah.
I mean, usually anything that that comes out of that is, you
know, an idea that's not going to work very well And then after
it's out there like you're, you know, you wind up like doing it
and it's ineffective. But Jeff, read up a scenario
earlier, which was, are you getting these spam?
I'm not even sure if it's on this call.
We, we talk so much, but it was, you know, I keep getting these
spam SMS messages that I owe money for toll roads.
And like, I'm not worried if they're saying, hey, you were in
San Francisco last week, so you might want to buy, you might
want to go to Joe's Sourdough House.
I'm OK with that. That doesn't bother me.
What bothers me is like the low end spam, like nobody it it the
scam spam I would call it. Totally.
And like how? Do you smishing if I could block
that? Click the link.
Yeah, I mean, if I could block that, I'm sure everybody's
sitting there saying something similar, Like if I could block
that, I'd be I'd be a little bit happier in life.
The answer is very simple. Just don't use text messaging,
right? I mean, that's.
That's the kind of friction fill thing.
Right. But it's not realistic, right?
We, we, we've grown to depend on these services.
I mean, we get MFA through text messaging.
So, you know, I mean we, we. Shouldn't we?
Shouldn't. But it's still better than
nothing, right? I.
Mean, and this is a case where by the way, you know, when I was
saying enterprises live in the past.
So, you know, there are still organizations that are putting
in place MFA with SMSOTPS right now that haven't even, you know,
deployed it yet. And yet it's already been
deprecated in the land of, you know, folks who follow NIST
800-63. So like, you know, some things
get get they degrade in quality over time.
And yet if it takes a while to put in place the program, you
know, two of my banks have been rolling out voice authentication
and I want to say defakes. Like they just sort of missed
the whole moment. We just did an entire AI
episode, so it's it's gotten crazy.
Yeah. And actually I heard that from
some people that we sound better on the AI version, so I'll keep
that in mind. All right, well, now I know.
Yeah, exactly. I'll just script every single
episode from here on out. That is my goal, though.
Like I have an ulterior goal is at some point I'm going to have,
you know, AI voices of Jim, you and I, and maybe even a guest if
I can get them to agree to it. That's going to be virtually
indistinguishable and the only thing you'll know is that
there's no Oz. You know those little things,
you know, you breathing into the mic, you know, like all that
stuff. But I read a paper today that
there is actually a new AI model that includes those things in
it. Oh boy.
And so of. Course there is.
At some point, you're not going to know.
And people will be directing their AI agents to go listen to
the episodes and then where will we be?
So, so, E, let's get back on track you.
One of the things you told me was that you've been encouraging
your clients to look at identity services as a product.
So yes, tell me a little bit about what that means.
So you know, if you have services that are available
internally for app owners and others marketers, whoever who
depend on those services, you got to be thinking about all the
different customers for your product.
And one of the trends that I've seen over the last few years is
they're actually product managers in charge of identity
and what it's delivering to the kind of internal ecosystem
market. So this is where that four set
then actually comes in. So for for those who are product
managers, you'll be aware of the jobs to be done kind of
methodology where you're really looking kind of under the covers
of what people say they want out of a product.
You're looking at what they actually need, kind of the end
state of what they need. And that's where I sort of came
up with the four things that I think identity delivers to
different parties, protection, personalization, payment and
things people want. So the four PS So I think that
it's possible to find all the different use cases.
So security protection, privacy protection, fraud protection,
all of the kind of cross sell and upsell.
And you know, this whole CDP value framework that I was
talking about, all the things that the marketeers want out of
things that connect with identity.
You can start to sort out what's important and you can sort out
who it's important to by looking at those four things and their
intersections. So being that this is the go to
podcast for the identity practitioner, I want to ask you
#1 you know, from a practitioner perspective, what do we need to
know about this topic? The stakeholder management when
it comes to CIM and, and you know, specific to thinking about
this e-commerce situation where we have the martech and the ad
tech element to it, what do we need to know?
And then do we own it? Is that IMS to solve or what is
our role? Sometimes the identity team owns
some of this and sometimes it clearly doesn't.
It's interfacing with others who have the primary responsibility.
And this is where, you know, I'm going to say racy chart because
it's just sort of the easy, you know, go to framework for this
one of the. I was fucking a ven chart.
I mean, there is a been, but like you have to, this is how
you start sorting out like who kind of really owns what and who
cares about what and to what level they care about it.
And I would say you need to start looking at each of the use
cases. So like I've seen a bunch of
RFPs where all the use cases are broken down.
And the interesting thing to me is they don't necessarily break
down on along product lines or on stakeholder lines.
Like, you know, the one example I always sort of reach for comes
more from identity versus security as opposed to this
marketing conversation. Like, you know, your CIO is
going to care and their folks are going to care a lot about
fast, efficient, accurate provisioning.
It's the people who are risk facing who care about fast,
accurate deprovisioning. Are you looking at a different
product? No, so that's kind of the
challenge. And so like I was, I was just
talking to some folks, a bunch of seesos who were talking about
the, you know, is the identity team part of your security team?
And what they were seeing was about 50% are, and I don't know
if that tracks with your experience, but it just shows
the challenge of trying to sort through, well, do you own it?
Well, up through the chain I do or directly I do.
Or, you know, how does the SoC team interact with the identity
team when we've got this whole new identity security landscape?
Those are some of the questions you can start to sort.
I think my my experience with those contracts with Jeff was
saying earlier were like the clients that I've worked with.
So usually when I get called in to kind of like herd the cats,
it's because the IM person is the leader.
The IM person is trying to get all these stakeholders together
to do some sort of digital transformation or something like
that. One of the the biggest topics
that I find that needs to be done is that you have all the
people who are more than happy to represent their lane.
Informational security will represent the lane of security
and and the risk side of the house and IT fast, efficient,
secure. We're using the right platform,
we've got the right infrastructure, marketing.
I just want to sell more stuff and somebody's got to get all
that to OK, there's only going to be 1 website, not three
different websites, for example, a website.
But then also, I think one thing that you've got to do if you're
like trying to hurt all these people is get them to be
empathetic to the needs of the other groups because they're,
it's like everybody's swimming in one pool.
There's no, you know, you guys stay over here, you guys stay
over there. It's all just one body of water.
Yep. And This is why even with all
the AI tools to help things, you know, it comes down to human
relationships, even working within an organization.
And I, I don't see a way to really change that.
We're going to have to talk to each other and we're going to
have to figure it out and we're going to have to clarify some
things that are still kind of squishy.
Yeah. So, you know, I think a lot of
what we're talking about, it sounds a lot like identity
security. And what are your thoughts
there? I mean, like identity security
definitely seems to be kind of this new concept, which I think
we're all trying to wrap our heads around.
Is it actually indifferent or we just talked about the same stuff
differently? You know, I'm glad that this is
the stakeholder conversation is happening more in earnest now.
It's, you know, couldn't come at a better time because we do need
to contribute with identity to the security conversation more
than ever because there's problems more than ever, right?
And so that's the challenge that identity have has in that it's
not, you know, if it really is an internal product to a whole
bunch of stakeholders, it's doing something important and
it's one of those things that's supposed to be securing things
better. But what happens when it's a
source of insecurity? That's like, embarrassing.
Let's. Just call it a bit.
So that kind of dual nature of identity has been the challenge.
And I think what's coming to the fore is we, we do have new
technologies, we have AI, people are using graph, we're, we're
getting better visibility across kind of the identity of state.
And that's enabling us to have better solutions to closing
gaps, tying up loose ends, doing a good job of whatever it was
we're doing in the 1st place. So so I kind of like that we've
got these new augmentations of capabilities that are just just
giving us better sight over everything the the arguments
about like what is ITDRA thing like that's all over now.
We we seem to have some agreement, rough agreement in
the industry around, you know, what does ITDR mean?
What does ISPN mean? But I like identity security as
a bucket, as a kind of a sub bucket.
Yeah, I like identity security as a bucket because it's pushing
the identity practitioner to think about more than just
what's in their lane. But I, where I, I stop is that I
don't think this puts these things in our lane just because
we have to be aware of them, just because we have to
contribute to, to them, say something like logging,
alerting, or, you know, defending their perimeter.
All these things because they used an identity element now
doesn't make them something that the identity practitioner owns.
Just like, you know, in the olden days when we ran all of
our stuff on servers, just because we put our identity
software on a server didn't mean that we own the server, right?
The infrastructure team owns the server.
Just because we contribute to policies and standards doesn't
mean we own, you know, that the the governance processes around,
you know, turning those into controls and you know, testing
those controls, that's owned by the audit team.
We always had to work with other people.
We need to know how their lanes operated to some extent.
They need to contribute to some extent, but it doesn't mean we
own those things. I think identity security almost
like it's like, put it this way, there's all these companies that
identity conferences now saying we're, you know, identity
security. So the people who go to identity
conferences are mostly identity practitioners, right?
This was the conversation I was just having is like, well,
where, where are these tools being used?
And so far I'm seeing kind of an even split between explicit
identity teams and like sock teams, right?
Cause and in a way that's elevating identity to a new
level of visibility for the CISO.
And, you know, the, the, the Cheeto conversation seems to
have subsided a little bit. But, you know, I do see Ciso's
having a lot more knowledge, direct knowledge about identity
needs and problems and solutions.
So I mean, it can't, can't be a bad thing, right?
We were a small town. We're growing into a bigger
city. You know, those, those are, I
think, good things. But we do have to have that
conversation maybe in each organization about, you know,
well, what's the, what's the structure of who owns what?
Let me just talk about it. Well, I wonder if the it's time
for a macro discussion around the space of identity, because I
hear identity risk and I hear a qualifier.
Oh well, we care risk. I hear identity, security,
another qualifier. I only care about security,
identity, privacy and consent. More qualifiers.
Is it just identity? And then I start to think as
well as a digital identity. No, Digital is another
qualifier. Right, the website is identity
right? And, and now we start to get
into, you know, physical identity, right?
Or you know, you know, you're you're a human being identity,
right? Stuff like that.
And I just every time I hear something identity, it's some
sort of qualifier identity at the center.
Guess what? Qualifier.
You're part of the problem. But honestly, I mean, This is
why, you know, if you're going to have a shared service and if
the service is going to be shared widely enough, it's going
to touch every part of the organization and be subject to
all of those kind of sharing forces more than anything else.
And that's something we haven't really looked in the eye as a
challenge until recently. And I'm, I'm glad of that
conversation, right? It's like, let's figure out what
it's valuable for all the things it's valuable for.
For every company, it's going to be a little different actually,
And that's OK. But you know, there's value in a
service that's so widely used to do so many things.
Just means that the picture looks a little diffuse when you
when you hand out ownership for any one piece of it.
Well, maybe it's time to have an identity team, not an Infrasac
team or an infrastructure team. And that identity team probably
has a broad set of skill sets that takes it across any number
of areas. I don't know, right?
I mean, there's any number of ways that we can slice this one
out, but I every time I hear something new in identity, it's
like, OK, it's a new concept, right?
We one of the episodes we've done in a lot of fast is what's
the difference between digital identity and identity and access
management and. I remember that one.
We had 48 different answers from 48 different people, right?
Yeah, but mine was right. Oh, well, of course, yes,
because the context in which you were answering it was right.
And that was the big thing was like, OK, it depends on who
you're talking to and blah, blah, blah.
And so, OK, so now it's identity security.
I'm going to guess in six months to a year, somebody's going to
start calling it identity risk or some other juicy acronym that
we can kind of rally behind. That's great.
I like to just get to the space of, OK, we're in identity.
We do identity things. And so that encompasses all of
this stuff, usability, risk, privacy, consent, governance,
laws, regulations, right? All that stuff is really under
the identity umbrella. That's a big umbrella.
It is. That's what it looks like.
That Venn diagram looks like an umbrella.
There you go. See, that's how we tie it all
together. So so I asked you, we we asked
you all the hard questions about identity, or maybe they're easy,
depending on how we want to go on this.
We want to end the show on a lighter note.
And the question I've got for you is a would you rather
question? So would you rather have a one
minute conversation with yourself from the past?
Or one minute conversation from yourself in the future.
Every time I look back on my past, I think, gosh, I, I don't
know, 10 years ago, six years ago, 50 years ago, whatever.
I was clueless. I didn't know anything.
Well, at least you're saying that then.
I'm still saying that now. I was like, I don't know what's
going. On I'm still yeah, I mean,
anytime In the past, I was definitely more clueless than I
am now. So my vote is I want to have a
one minute conversation with myself in the future.
And what would you tell yourself would it be?
Here's a stock tip. By Apple.
I was just rereading an old Ray Bradbury short story called
Night Call Collect where it's an old guy, last one guy stuck on
Mars who keeps getting called by his younger self on the phone.
That sounds cool. It is cool and sort of
frightening. It keeps making me think like AI
agents and delegation on behalf of stuff.
You know, these are the things, the questions it's bringing up
in my mind. But like, would I rather have
been the young guy or the old guy?
And I think thinking about the story, so maybe some of the
watchers listeners will know the story.
I mean, I'd rather be the young guy because everything looks
great for the future and all the possibilities are still there.
So I when I'm asking myself a question, am I the young younger
me or the older me asking the question?
She doesn't make me think too hard.
Well, that's why I said maybe it's the harder question out of
all this stuff. Let's go back to the identity
stuff, that stuff we know. Jim, what about you?
Would you talk to yourself from the past or talk to yourself in
the future? And I'm going to exclude talk to
yourself in the current because I know you already do that.
Yeah, I definitely do that. I'm going to go with my future
self because I'd rather get advice.
I mean, sometimes I wish I was younger again.
I could do certain things over again, but I don't know if I
don't, what would I have more money or things like that?
Yeah, I certainly I could have set that up.
But, you know, one minute you could do it.
Exactly what you said. Invest in Apple.
OK, so now you have more money. Is that what would make your
life better? You don't.
Everything that happened between your younger self and now,
you're here now. So you didn't die in a car
accident or something like that. You couldn't avoid that by by
going and visiting your old, your younger self.
Now, if you're sitting there and like something had happened to
you and you're like, OK, I got to say, don't get it on that
plane to, you know, wherever because that would be like
really bad. That's what ruined your life.
I don't have one of those like moments.
I guess you got a series of beds decisions that I've made over.
Time like starting a podcast and trying to do one that episode
every week. I think talking to myself from
the future would yield me like, OK, you know, there's let's say
I talked to 80 year old self and I'm 50 now I've got some advice
for like what should I do for the next 30 years?
Maybe I would fuse yourself and say buy Apple.
I don't know, right? But it might be like, hey,
retire younger or do these things or don't quit working at
at don't retire at 55. I don't know.
But I'd like to have that advice now.
So I. Think this is an interesting
question. I think it's, it's are you, are
you satisfied with your past really kind of determines and
your I guess, and your current state would really determine
whether or not you want to talk to your future self or your past
self. Like do you go back in time
essentially and try to correct a mistake or position yourself
better from wherever you currently are?
Or are you in a good spot right now and you want to make sure
you stay in that good spot or get to a better spot, you know,
in the future? Maybe that's where you talk to
your future self. I just thought of a sci-fi twist
to this. So let's take that same question
and let's say you can choose, right?
You can go as far back or as far forward as you want and
everybody can do it, but you can only go as far forward as you
are alive. And so some people like, oh,
I'll go 30 years in the future and they don't get a phone call
or 10 minutes in the future. They don't get a phone call,
right? That knowledge of something is
going to happen in my future between zero and X number of
days of when I decide I want to receive that phone call.
How does that affect the rest of your life?
There's like the questions we face.
Do we do we do genetic testing to find out?
That's like Twilight Zone stuff right there.
This is like an episode. Of White Mirror, Black Mirror.
Yeah, I still haven't watched a new season yet, so I'm, I'm, I'm
behind on that one. But yeah, for, for those Black
Mirror fans, this this is turning into a Black Mirror
episode or a Twilight Zone. Oh dear.
OK, I, I feel like I absorbed some of Jim in that one because
I, I took it maybe down a little bit downer from it so.
Yeah, dark man. I've got just the upper you
need. Do you want to meet the real
star of impactors? Let's get.
Sabrina on here while you're going to get we we, she was very
disappointed about a lot of the privacy and consent talk that we
were talking through. And you could tell that she
really wanted to join the conversation as you were kind of
getting there. But oh, there she is, Sabrina.
Your fans await. Starofgunfactory.com, star of
now of the Identity Center YouTube channel.
Is she a Chihuahua 6? And 1/2. 6 1/2 and what kind of.
Doug Pomeranian, Chihuahua miniature poodle.
She's a Pomchi poo. And she's a sweet girl.
She looks a lot like one of my my puppies.
It was an Australia dog and or Carolina dog, I should say,
looks like an Australian shepherd, Shibu, sort of like
that. And it has the same kind of
colorings and stuff like that. So I, when I was researching,
you know, for this episode and I went to your website, I saw that
video. I called my wife downstairs.
I was like, look, this is the best part of this website,
right? Here I had to do it with her
because otherwise she was like interfering with the shots.
So you know, that way she helped me.
Well, dogs are always welcome on this show, right?
Awesome. You're always think of when I
see a Chihuahua Sierra Taco Bell.
OK, I don't know how we can top that.
So let's end with Sabrina and Eve.
Thank you so much for taking the time with us.
We're going to have a bunch of links in our show notes.
Connect with Eve on LinkedIn, visit her website,
thenfactory.com, Venn, factory.com.
Say hello to Sabrina as you click that video on the front.
And yeah, our discount codes are always on our homepage, IDC,
podcast.com, Like and subscribe, share with friends, share with
enemies, doesn't matter. As long as people are listening,
like and subscribing, don't really care.
And yeah, that's it. We'll go ahead and leave it for
this week. Thank you, Eve.
Thank you, Sabrina. And we'll talk with you all in
the next one. Take care.
You've been listening to Identity at the Center.
We hope you've enjoyed the show. Make sure to like, rate and
review, and we'll be back soon. But in the meantime, hit the
website at identity@thecenter.com.
See you next time on Identity at the Center.