1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:04,160 What I chose to do for the South by Southwest audience was, you 2 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:06,480 know, I talked a little bit about zero Trust and how they 3 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:09,560 say assume breach, right, which is a good assumption for both 4 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:14,680 people and organizations. I suggested as well, they need 5 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:19,240 to start assuming tracking. So assume breach, yes, assume 6 00:00:19,240 --> 00:00:25,360 tracking, absolutely, which is, you know, that's not a piece of 7 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:28,120 advice that's sort of actionable other than making you think 8 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:30,640 before you share things you don't want to get out there. 9 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:34,120 You know, the other joke that might be made, and especially 10 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:37,200 given where Identiverse is held these days, you know, what 11 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:39,440 happens on the Internet stays on the Internet. 12 00:00:41,160 --> 00:00:44,720 So, so like being aware is sort of the first thing in terms of 13 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:48,040 doing something about it as an individual that can be really 14 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:52,800 tough. There are things you can take on 15 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:57,160 board that require some friction in your life to do, and that's 16 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:00,560 not something I generally want to ask people to do when it 17 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:04,599 comes to identity professionals and what we can all do to 18 00:01:04,599 --> 00:01:09,160 support the efforts to give people more choice, give people 19 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:11,840 more transparency when they are consumers of businesses and when 20 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:14,960 you work for those businesses. I think we have to, you know, if 21 00:01:14,960 --> 00:01:18,040 we take ID Pro's vision seriously, we have to try it and 22 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:20,640 do that. And that requires understanding 23 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:24,120 the value that is being created for the business of each of 24 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:26,360 those pieces of data. So when you were talking about 25 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:28,920 data governance, Jim, I totally agree. 26 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:31,720 The way that a privacy professional would see that is 27 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:34,480 it's kind of a risk assessment for each piece of data 28 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:36,360 collected. What I think we've been 29 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:38,440 forgetting is the value assessment. 30 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:49,800 This is identity at the center if it has anything to do with 31 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:55,760 IAM. This is the go to podcast now 32 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:59,920 your hosts Jim McDonald and Jeff Stedman. 33 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:05,320 Welcome to the Identity of the Center podcast. 34 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:06,680 I'm Jeff, and that's Jim. Hey, Jim. 35 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:09,400 Hey, Jeff, how are you? Oh, not so bad yourself. 36 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:12,720 Doing great. So I've got a theory I've been 37 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:17,880 working on, which is that we are at a current point, which is the 38 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:24,080 widest gap between laggard I am and next Gen. 39 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:26,480 I am. So we got Yvonne today as 40 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:30,080 everybody knows, right? It's in the title of the of the 41 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:32,720 show surprise. We're going to be talking a lot 42 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:38,320 of next Gen. stuff. I think every once in a while 43 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:42,720 we're like, we've run into a project and it's something like, 44 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:48,000 yeah, the way we do access is we've got this Word document and 45 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:52,240 we fill it out and it says make Eve like Jeff. 46 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:56,920 And then we just do that. And you're just like, oh boy, 47 00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:00,760 you gotta be kidding me. And I think we're at the widest 48 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:02,760 gap. I think that that first scenario 49 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:06,920 isn't really that far from what you'd find maybe in more places 50 00:03:06,920 --> 00:03:13,960 20 years ago, but now the the next Gen. is non human 51 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:20,400 identities, it's the decentralized identity. 52 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:22,880 So there's all these new areas that are cropping up and it's 53 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:25,920 getting more interesting and like how does this all this new 54 00:03:25,920 --> 00:03:29,080 technology fit into what we're doing? 55 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:32,320 But there's unfortunately still organizations that are 56 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:35,920 struggling with that basic blocking and tackling. 57 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:40,840 So, OK, so I think I know where you're going with it. 58 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:44,960 I don't know if I agree though, only because you and I in our 59 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:47,840 day jobs, we see pretty much the worst of I am right, you don't 60 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:50,240 call identity consultants and things are going great, right? 61 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:52,800 It's like all I need help with something and a lot of the 62 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:56,320 companies that you and I deal with, would you, I don't know if 63 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:59,800 I would call them laggards. I would call them average as far 64 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:02,440 as IA maturity goes, because there are still a lot of 65 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:06,040 organizations, too many that still haven't made investments 66 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:09,120 that I would call like basic IAM technologies. 67 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:12,280 And I think of things like identity governance, you know, 68 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:14,000 to help with automation and things like that. 69 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:16,040 And I think of, you know, privileged access management 70 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:19,200 tools. And then, you know, I think the 71 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:23,280 most investment that's happened over the last five to 10 years 72 00:04:23,280 --> 00:04:25,440 has really been more on the authentication side, especially 73 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:27,200 when COVID hit, it was like, wow, everybody's working from 74 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:29,560 home and remember how we didn't have MFA. 75 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:31,680 Well, we'd better sure have it now. 76 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:34,760 So let's get that rolled out. And so I think authentication 77 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:39,200 has sort of become relatively standard, but I don't know if I 78 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:43,760 would call laggard and next Gen. just knowing how many companies 79 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:46,840 haven't even caught up to the what we what you were kind of 80 00:04:46,840 --> 00:04:48,200 referring to as like the laggard part. 81 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:51,320 I think that's pretty average. It's far rarer that I see like 82 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:55,000 next truly next Gen. I am, and I don't mean like a 83 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:57,200 fancier IGAI. Think of things that are more 84 00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:59,720 like API based. They're using things like shared 85 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:02,840 steel framework or Cape or, you know, other types of 86 00:05:02,840 --> 00:05:06,280 orchestrations that are almost UI less. 87 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:10,000 It's it's orchestration, it's policy based, it's adaptive, 88 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:12,920 right? And it's using data rather than 89 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:16,520 and just another way to collect a form on somebody, whether it's 90 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:19,160 a word form or a ServiceNow form or whatever it may be. 91 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:23,320 Like I see getting rid of that touch point as really sort of 92 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:26,720 the next Gen. and then using the data off that to do policy based 93 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:28,200 decisions, risk based decisions, right? 94 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:29,840 Things like that. Yeah. 95 00:05:29,840 --> 00:05:32,880 I think that you're right about the authentication piece. 96 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:36,200 I think that's where a lot of organizations have put their 97 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:39,400 investment. I think that by laggard, you can 98 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:43,160 say laggard in terms of investing in other areas that 99 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:46,280 are also important. Privileged access management in 100 00:05:46,280 --> 00:05:50,280 terms of user management in terms of, you know, on the 101 00:05:50,280 --> 00:05:54,120 external side where you have a lot of people trying to 102 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:57,520 penetrate. But I also think when you talk 103 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:00,480 about some of these next Gen. things like non human identity 104 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:03,640 management, when like like decentralized identity, you 105 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:06,480 can't even worry about those things until you get the basic 106 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:08,040 blocking and tackling done, right. 107 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:10,000 Well, you could worry about it. I don't know if you can do 108 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:11,880 anything about it, but you can certainly worry about it, that's 109 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:14,120 for sure. But let's look non, you know, 110 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:17,280 NHI non human identity, right? It's it's sort of like the 111 00:06:17,280 --> 00:06:21,360 identity topic du jour for the year 2025 and probably towards 112 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:23,880 the end of 2024 is when it first really kind of got into the 113 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:25,720 limelight. But it's not new. 114 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:27,480 Non human identities have been around forever. 115 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:30,120 I mean, there's service accounts that have been around forever, 116 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:32,600 you know, go back as far as the mainframe, right? 117 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,120 And I'm sure even before that, right punch cards, you know, 118 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:36,600 probably had some of that too as well. 119 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:40,720 So when we say non human identity, I think all we're, I 120 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:44,600 think what we've started to do is recognize that these 121 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:49,280 identities do need to be managed as well, whether they are a 122 00:06:49,280 --> 00:06:52,360 carbon based life form behind it or not, or if we want to, you 123 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:55,640 know, debate the semantics of account versus identity. 124 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:58,400 The problem is not new. It's almost like saying, well, 125 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:01,200 identity's the new perimeter. It's been the perimeter for like 126 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:04,800 25 years, 30 years. So it's just, it's, it's getting 127 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:06,520 hot right now, which is cool. Like, Hey, I'm not going to 128 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:08,240 knock it. Like that's great for people in 129 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:12,160 the IM space, but I, I, I don't, I don't know if I agree with 130 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:15,760 like that's like the future. I think it's the now and it's 131 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:17,840 the has been, not has been. That's probably what I want to 132 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:21,080 put it, the history, but I hopefully that makes sense. 133 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:23,880 I'm not saying it goes away. It's definitely going to be part 134 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:27,360 of the future as well though. I, I kind of feel like non, 135 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:30,560 you're right in terms of non human identities have been 136 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:34,800 around for as long as we've been in IT, but the problem has 137 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:37,920 grown, right. So there are more devices on the 138 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:40,960 network. The device has more importance 139 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:45,360 in terms of the overall authentication picture, for 140 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:48,080 example. So there's the device side of 141 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:50,600 it, but then there's also the workload side of it, which I 142 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:53,000 think you referenced. Sure, you have service accounts, 143 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:56,440 but you also have robotic process automation. 144 00:07:56,440 --> 00:08:00,600 You also have people doing things with like Kubernetes and 145 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:06,560 Docker and infrastructures code and, you know, managing your 146 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:09,080 cloud environment. And so when I start to think 147 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:13,240 about those things, look, if you have an organization that's like 148 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:16,280 using word forms and copy as are you probably doing a lot with 149 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:19,960 Docker, well, I don't know. There might be other people like 150 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:22,280 we put our money there. We want to make our 151 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:27,160 infrastructure hum, or we hire somebody who's like a whiz kid 152 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:29,800 and they're going and doing those things. 153 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:31,320 And they might be wearing dockers. 154 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:33,039 So there you go, there's your docker container. 155 00:08:33,159 --> 00:08:35,039 There you go, you pulled it all together right there. 156 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:37,480 I think I know where you're going with it. 157 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:39,600 Like, OK, yeah, I mean, that makes sense. 158 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:44,840 I just, it's like, I think sometimes we forget about the 159 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:47,480 average population. And I don't mean that 160 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:49,880 negatively. I mean where most people are 161 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:52,320 from like a company perspective, a maturities protected, a very 162 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:55,640 capability perspective. There's just a lot of companies 163 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:58,360 that are still kind of scraping by. 164 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:00,720 And I mean, you and I know this, right? 165 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:02,240 We talked to a lot of really smart people, like, yeah, they 166 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:05,000 know what they should be doing, but they don't get the funding 167 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:07,920 to do what they want to do. Or, you know, their strategic 168 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:10,440 investments just aren't there yet to, like, modernize or 169 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:11,680 improve things. And it's painful. 170 00:09:11,680 --> 00:09:13,960 And that's why I refer to all these I am heroes out there that 171 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:18,840 literally make the company work through sheer effort and will in 172 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:23,400 spite of, yeah, I have to send a fax to get an account to me. 173 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:26,120 I mean, like, it's 2025, but that still happens. 174 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:29,440 It's crazy. Yeah, so I'll be interested to 175 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:33,920 hear what Eve has to say. Is the this chasm or this gap 176 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:36,400 between laggards and next Gen. I am. 177 00:09:36,560 --> 00:09:40,160 Is it worthy of a Venn chart? We'll find out. 178 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:42,520 I, I, I mean, we, we, we probably already know the answer 179 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:45,680 to that. So for sure we're recording this 180 00:09:45,680 --> 00:09:47,280 a little bit advance. I'm going to tear it on the 4th 181 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:50,600 wall a little bit. We have not yet gone to EIC, but 182 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:52,440 we're trying to make sure we have content to kind of carry 183 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:55,600 over EIC and our vacations and things like that. 184 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:59,520 So for people who are listening, just know that we are still yet 185 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:01,800 to go there and, and he's been gracious enough to join us and 186 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:03,920 give us kind of a preview of, of what she's going to talk about. 187 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:06,960 But don't forget we still have an Identiverse discount code. 188 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:09,280 We're going to be there. We're going to be just doing 189 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:12,680 some cool stuff. So if you visit us there in Las 190 00:10:12,680 --> 00:10:16,720 Vegas, June 3rd through the 6th, if you use the code IDB 25-I D 191 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:19,960 AC25 to get you 25% off, it'll be in our show notes. 192 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:22,880 And it's also on our homepage, IDC, podcast.com. 193 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:24,240 If you just Scroll down and it'll be right there. 194 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:27,560 But the cool thing we're doing and and we've started to, to get 195 00:10:27,560 --> 00:10:30,800 this out there is we are bringing the Identis Squabble 196 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:34,680 game show to the Identiverse Conference. 197 00:10:34,680 --> 00:10:37,560 So if you are familiar with what we put on at the Authenticate 198 00:10:37,560 --> 00:10:41,520 conference late last year with their help, we are, we are 199 00:10:41,560 --> 00:10:43,920 rebranding it slightly at least for the identity of the Center 200 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:48,000 to Identis Squabble. I'm going to be the MC slash 201 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:52,000 game show host and Jim's going to be a team captain and I think 202 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:54,920 we're going to do IDAC versus ID pro. 203 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:57,840 So I think we've reached out to Heather and she seemed to be in 204 00:10:57,840 --> 00:10:59,120 for it. You guys are going to pick your 205 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:01,560 own team mates. Neither of you will be able to 206 00:11:01,560 --> 00:11:04,280 see the questions in advance. Only I have access to that. 207 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:08,520 So I'm creating a a list of identity questions, non human 208 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:11,240 questions, and maybe some Vegas questions to kind of keep things 209 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:12,560 fun. We'll probably have time for 210 00:11:12,560 --> 00:11:15,920 maybe 3 or 4, but we're going to be kicking off the Expo sort of 211 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:18,640 reception party that Tuesday night when things kind of open 212 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:21,120 up for that kind of stuff. So I'm looking forward to that 213 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:23,800 and hopefully people will come out and see that. 214 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:25,720 I'm trying to make it also a little more audience 215 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:28,080 interactive. So maybe we'll have like life 216 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:30,640 lines that we can do where, you know, if people aren't sure of 217 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:32,160 answers, they can ask the audience, right? 218 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:34,480 Or things like that. So I'm very much looking forward 219 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:36,120 to that. Jim, do you have your teammates 220 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:37,960 lined up yet or are you still working on that? 221 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:39,640 No, I still have to work on that. 222 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:43,760 So I I mean, you just announced news that I wasn't even aware 223 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:46,520 of. So Heather has agreed to be Team 224 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:49,000 ID Pros captain. I mean, yeah, you should check 225 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:51,640 your e-mail. Well, I'm hey man, I've got some 226 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:53,280 other things going on. Sorry. 227 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:55,160 There is nothing more important than I, Dennis. 228 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:57,040 Squabble, Jim. This is the most important thing 229 00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:00,240 happening in the entire world in the next, let's call it month. 230 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:01,680 Two months. I know. 231 00:12:01,680 --> 00:12:04,520 Not just for me, I mean for the entire world. 232 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:06,160 Exactly. Yeah. 233 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:10,840 So I'd AC versus ID pro. I think I reached out to Eve and 234 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:14,040 I think that she's not going to be there, right, Eve? 235 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:17,320 I'm going to be there for a little while. 236 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:20,200 I'll probably have to miss Identisquabble, but I really 237 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:22,320 like saying identisquabble. Yeah. 238 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:24,480 Can I just say? I don't know if there's any 239 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:26,640 reason to go to the conference if you're going to miss 240 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:30,160 Identisquabble, but I'm just saying I'm. 241 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:32,680 Sorry to miss that part. I want T-shirts out of that 242 00:12:32,680 --> 00:12:34,240 though. There ought to be T-shirts. 243 00:12:34,680 --> 00:12:37,240 There should be T-shirts. Well, maybe we can make it a 244 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:40,080 recurring thing. And, you know, we'll see. 245 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:42,280 We'll see what we can do. It's fun. 246 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:43,880 You're not going to learn anything, but you're going to 247 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:46,000 have fun and be entertained. So that's kind of the point of 248 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:47,920 it. All right, let's let's formally 249 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:50,520 introduce Eve. She's a digital identity 250 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:54,560 futurist and strategist. She's the Co inventor of XML, 251 00:12:54,560 --> 00:12:57,400 SAML, UMA and maybe other things that I'm not aware of. 252 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:01,320 Privacy by design ambassador. She's a board member. 253 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:05,520 She's one of the IM rock stars of the band ZZ off. 254 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:08,720 She's the president and founder of Ven factory and this is her 255 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:11,920 seventh time on the show. Welcome back, Eve. 256 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:16,320 It is a delight and a mystery at the same time. 257 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:18,840 That's how we like it on here. We don't know what we're doing. 258 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:22,400 Seventh time on the show. I think I mentioned before we 259 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:24,720 hit record that you're approaching Andrew Shikiar, A 260 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:27,880 Fido Alliance fame, who I think is the current record holder. 261 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:30,080 I'm sure we'll get Andrew on later this year as we kind of 262 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:31,400 get closer to the Authenticate conference. 263 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:34,040 But you've been very generous with your time. 264 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:36,280 You are actually. And and Jim talks about this 265 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:37,200 royal time. I don't know if he's ever 266 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:40,200 mentioned it to you. You're like our first big get 267 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:42,640 for the show and we were so excited. 268 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:44,760 It was like, Oh my gosh, like Eve wants to do the show. 269 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:47,280 Like does she know who like what we're doing? 270 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:49,480 And, and you probably do and that's fine, but you're you're 271 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:51,240 very generous with your time and joining it to us. 272 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:53,040 We'll never forget that. It was kind of the ones like, 273 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:55,400 oh, you actually could get some people on this show that people 274 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:57,000 have heard of. You had all the signs of 275 00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:00,320 greatness even then. Well, flattery gets you 276 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:02,720 everywhere in this show, so, you know, I'll take it anytime we 277 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:05,960 can get it. It was October the last time you 278 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:08,040 were with us and I think actually you recorded maybe that 279 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:09,680 one with Jim, because I think I was travelling. 280 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:11,960 And so we've been kind of talking about things in there. 281 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:14,880 But I'd love to understand what's new in your world since 282 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:16,400 the last time you were on back in October. 283 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:20,280 Gosh so much. I mean you know I've been 284 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:22,240 growing ven factory. I've got some exciting new 285 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:26,680 clients preparing 1/3 white paper that I've written with a 286 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:32,360 co-author for the first time. We're hoping to launch it in a 287 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:36,480 kind of an e-commerce site that I I'm working on putting up and 288 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:39,800 I got this great opportunity to go speak to South by Southwest 289 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:42,600 about identity. That is so cool. 290 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:47,120 I mean, how how crazy is that to have, you know, like an identity 291 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:49,440 talk at South by Southwest. I joke about like, hey, they 292 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:51,680 should make a, you know, let's turn ideas into a Netflix show. 293 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:54,320 But I mean, that's pretty close to the same kind of concept, 294 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:55,320 right? I mean, what was it like being 295 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:57,440 at South by Southwest? It it's fun. 296 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:01,360 It was fun for sure. I did have an experience like 10 297 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:04,720 years ago where Joni Brennan was involved and a few other folks 298 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:07,200 from the identity world. We were talking about IoT 299 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:10,080 privacy back then. And so they've had some 300 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:12,880 representation of, you know, great tech topic topics over 301 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:15,680 time. But like, I wanted to be sure to 302 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:19,440 reach a whole bunch of folks who might not have identity context 303 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:22,160 at all, even though they said, you know, don't be too high 304 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:26,440 level, you know, I, I didn't want to leave people behind, you 305 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:30,520 know, So, so I really just tried to cover why individuals should 306 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:34,240 care, why businesses need to care and provide advice for 307 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:36,240 everybody. So yeah, I had that opportunity. 308 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:38,760 It was it was awesome. And, and just being in the, you 309 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:41,520 know, the zeitgeist of South by and walking around Austin with a 310 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:44,440 bunch of other folks hearing music from every corner that, 311 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:46,960 you know, it doesn't suck. I mean, that's totally like 312 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:48,800 Rockstar, you know, mentality, right? 313 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:50,800 At that point, it's like, all right, we're going to hear from 314 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:52,880 Eve, but I am. And then here comes this major 315 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:54,920 band. I'm somebody I actually 316 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:56,920 recognized from the movies walking down the street. 317 00:15:56,920 --> 00:16:00,560 Yeah, it's kind of like that. I love your website. 318 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:02,520 I think it's fantastic. It's one of the one of the more 319 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:04,560 well designed ones that I've they've come across. 320 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:08,520 I want to know how do I meet the star of Ven factory.com? 321 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:12,240 And by that I mean your adorable puppy or dog that is in your 322 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:14,560 like, welcome video. Sabrina. 323 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:17,600 Yeah. You know, she's way more popular 324 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:19,400 than I am. I should have had her join me 325 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:21,720 today. I'm happy to introduce you to 326 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:26,520 She cares about about identity, but she doesn't know why. 327 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:30,440 Now, did she have a rider to get into that video where they're 328 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:34,400 like, you know, only carrot biscuits and green beans or, you 329 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:36,880 know, something like that? Like, what was the what was her 330 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:39,640 union rate to have her, you know, be the talent on air? 331 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:44,040 Extra TREATS, basically. That's right, you can't say the 332 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:46,680 word out loud because it'll. Summon well trained yeah you're 333 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:50,680 CAMP you can't say WLK I'm. Flying in, you're like treats. 334 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:52,400 Do we hear treats? No. 335 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:54,000 It's a great website. I encourage people to go check 336 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:54,720 it out. I love the video. 337 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:57,720 Anytime I think I see a dog on camera with like, people, it's 338 00:16:57,720 --> 00:16:59,960 like, all right, yeah, I'm in. Sign me out. 339 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:03,320 Who doesn't love dogs and who doesn't love Venn diagrams? 340 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:05,319 So the answer to your question before is yes, of course. 341 00:17:05,319 --> 00:17:07,839 I'm sure there is some sort of chart that can be made. 342 00:17:08,079 --> 00:17:10,520 Is it a is it a Venn diagram when the circles completely 343 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:13,319 overlap? I mean it's like who loves dogs 344 00:17:13,319 --> 00:17:15,440 and Venn diagrams? Like it's the same people. 345 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:20,240 I mean, there is that ID pro Slack channel that's all about 346 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:23,240 Identi pets. So, you know, I think there's 347 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:26,520 probably a pretty good close to to overlap, perfect overlap 348 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:31,320 among the populations. I will say this though, so if 349 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:34,600 you show me the the latest Venn diagram that you're working on, 350 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:37,440 it looks different. It wasn't like 3 intersecting 351 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:39,320 circles, right? It's kind of like a. 352 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:42,120 Correct. I don't know, it looks. 353 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:45,880 More like a. It looks more like a, I don't 354 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:49,160 know, Sr. 71 Blackbird kind of shape. 355 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:50,560 Now you're speaking my language. Yeah. 356 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:52,640 Blackbirds are an awesome jet. Yeah. 357 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:55,520 I used to have a poster of that on a wall at one point. 358 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:56,800 Yeah, they're pretty, pretty cool. 359 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:57,600 Icky. Yeah. 360 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:03,800 It turns out you can't do sets if, if you're comparing sets and 361 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:06,840 you have more than three sets that you want to compare, you 362 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,480 can't use circles. It's just sort of impossible. 363 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:13,520 So you either have to have sort of rounded ellipses or you have 364 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:16,960 to have kind of blocks, or you can be more creative than that. 365 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:20,560 And so it's a four set then, because I'm comparing 4 things. 366 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:25,000 And it's all about kind of stakeholders and reasons to do 367 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:27,640 identity. And you know, I, I, I think 368 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:30,160 there's four basic reasons to do identity. 369 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,680 And the problem is everybody in the organization, not to mention 370 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:37,960 just regular human beings who who have a stake, who care in 371 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:41,600 the results. So is this research that we'll 372 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,160 see at some point, like where's this in the life cycle of the 373 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:46,560 generation of it? Yeah, You know, I shared an 374 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:49,800 early version of it I think at EIC previously and I've done 375 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:52,440 some more work. It's definitely going to be in 376 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:54,520 the EIC talk. So you know, people who may be 377 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:57,920 watching this afterwards will have seen, but I'll be sharing 378 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,680 it from stage. It's turning out to be very 379 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:04,440 productive for me to be able to see what advice that I can give. 380 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:08,680 Not just tech vendors about like well, who's your buyer persona 381 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:13,240 kind of thing, but also enterprises around how to make 382 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:16,000 sure that you have the right representation and have the the 383 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:20,960 highest bandwidth possible conversation around, you know, 384 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:24,080 who who cares about the outcomes and how to succeed and how not 385 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:27,240 to have somebody working against you, perhaps accidentally or 386 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:29,040 perhaps not. Accidentally. 387 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:32,520 I mean, that's the kind of stuff that I think people eat up 388 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:34,920 because I mentioned I am heroes early on. 389 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:38,880 And you know, the, the, the, the sad and unfortunate truth is 390 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:42,240 most of us are operating underfunded, under resourced. 391 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:44,600 Like there's just so much that needs to get done. 392 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:47,560 And so anything you can do to, you know, help convince the 393 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:50,120 right people to say this is an investment that is worthy. 394 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:53,120 Yeah, as much information you get on that, it's not going to 395 00:19:53,120 --> 00:19:54,400 be the right answer for everybody, right? 396 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:57,720 But I think that the more inputs we get into that, you can take 397 00:19:57,720 --> 00:19:59,960 this out if you're listening and shape your message to whatever 398 00:19:59,960 --> 00:20:02,000 is most appropriate, you know, for your organization. 399 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:02,840 So. Totally. 400 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:06,160 And you were talking about sort of laggards versus next Gen. 401 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:11,480 You know, there's a lot of pull by clever people, innovators, 402 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:13,960 you know vendors who are trying out new solutions. 403 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:16,520 There's a lot of pull towards stuff that is just completely 404 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:20,080 new and it's hard to absorb. And, you know, I've spent a lot 405 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:23,200 of time, you know, working with kind of the sell side. 406 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:27,760 And, you know, this is not meant to be pejorative towards 407 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:30,240 anybody. But like, I think vendors live 408 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:32,320 in the future because they've got to do that pull. 409 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:35,720 They have to imagine, you know, what went wrong and how to solve 410 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:37,120 it. And they have to kind of be out 411 00:20:37,120 --> 00:20:40,000 there and enterprises live in the past. 412 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:41,760 And it's not sort of a bad thing. 413 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:45,240 It's more like, you know, if you think about the population of 414 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:48,640 cars, I don't know in any one country in the US, there's going 415 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:51,800 to be a distribution of ages of those cars, which is one of the 416 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,080 things that makes connected car and IoT hard. 417 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:57,640 Same thing with enterprise infrastructure. 418 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:02,280 It represents buying decisions, you know, of 20 years, of 50 419 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:05,440 years, of 100 years. So of course the average age of 420 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:07,560 that stuff is going to be older and it's why you have to deal 421 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:10,840 with legacy and have Shim APIs and all the rest of it. 422 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:12,320 So it's just the nature of the thing. 423 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:14,480 And that's where you get a lot of overlap too, like you're 424 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,240 trying to buy a product that is future facing, but oh by the 425 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:20,360 way, can it also support COBOL or Rack F? 426 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:22,840 Totally. I mean, I think there's been 427 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:26,800 some move off of AS4 hundreds, you know, among the banks over 428 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:28,480 time, but not 100%. Right. 429 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:30,880 I still see tons of insurance companies using, you know, a 430 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:33,360 mainframe in the basement runs their entire operation. 431 00:21:33,360 --> 00:21:36,840 And it's, it's, it's crazy how much how, how much some of these 432 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:40,120 technologies have just lived longer than they probably should 433 00:21:40,120 --> 00:21:42,320 have, but they do because they are serving a purpose. 434 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:47,200 And there hasn't been that key reason like, OK, now we've got 435 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:48,760 to go. Yeah, yeah. 436 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:51,000 This is the conversation that often happens about, you know, 437 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,920 are you selling vitamins or a painkiller? 438 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,480 And you know, if there's some big pain, OK, well, now there's 439 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:59,520 a motivation and you can effect change and take care of tech 440 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:02,600 debt and do all the rest of it. That's such a good analogy. 441 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:04,320 And hopefully they're like Flintstone vitamins and they 442 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,000 taste good. I know we want to get into the 443 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:09,800 EIC talk you're going to give here, but I do want to ask you 444 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:13,000 about an earlier conversation we had way, way, way back and that 445 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:14,640 was around like personhood credentials. 446 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:19,000 Any news in that area that that we should be kind of picking up 447 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,160 on? From my perspective, there's a 448 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:24,120 couple of interesting things. First of all, I'm seeing more 449 00:22:24,120 --> 00:22:28,200 and more folks who are in the verifiable credentials game. 450 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:33,760 Also the biometrics game offering personhood kind of 451 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:37,560 services, right or personhood credentials delivered into 452 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:39,000 wallets. So I'm starting to see that 453 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:44,520 there's some uptick in, in adoption around that kind of 454 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:46,520 technology. The other thing that I've been 455 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:52,040 noticing is along with Dean Sachs and Mike Kaiser, I'm kind 456 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:56,240 of, I call myself the junior Co chair of the three of the the 457 00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:58,240 death of the digital estate group, the Dade Group. 458 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:01,480 And we've been having kind of an interesting conversation around 459 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:05,880 do you need personhood information about somebody who's 460 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,480 passed away? So you know, we talked about is 461 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:10,360 a person. So I guess that sort of was a 462 00:23:10,360 --> 00:23:13,640 person, you know, really did have a real world presence. 463 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,560 And these are things that are hard to solve because you're 464 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,720 not, not to be crude about it, you're like not doing liveness 465 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:23,560 detection in that case, right? So these are important pieces of 466 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:24,880 information. And what we've been learning 467 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,840 about kind of like the, I guess, looking at the government agency 468 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:31,000 infrastructure of the world around, like how do you sort of 469 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:35,360 inform important other downstream services that 470 00:23:35,360 --> 00:23:38,400 somebody has passed away? Like it's, it's by no means a 471 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,480 clean system with good data. It's, it's a mess. 472 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:44,680 So those are some of the considerations that are that I'm 473 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,080 sort of coming across as I look across the landscape. 474 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:51,680 So it's interesting that that that viewpoint of is a person is 475 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:56,040 in current tense, was a person as in past tense, which leads to 476 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:59,360 me there is a also probably going to be a will be a person 477 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:03,680 as in future tense. So how do you manage something 478 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:05,920 that is past, present and future? 479 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:08,640 And I guess what does personhood mean? 480 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,160 Like can you define that? Is it as simple as it's a human 481 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:15,680 being, or is it beyond that? There's different levels of what 482 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:19,640 kind of information can be delivered about this notion. 1 483 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:21,800 The most obvious to us, you know, having been in the 484 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,800 industry for a long time, is kind of full identity 485 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:26,600 verification. So you're saying it's not just a 486 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,880 random person, You're saying it's a person who really lives 487 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:31,840 in the real world and this person presenting this 488 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,120 credential matches to that known real world person. 489 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:38,280 That's identity verification. It's a kind of is a person, it's 490 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,200 just very specific. There are other levels where 491 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:45,600 it's more like this entity in front of me trying to operate 492 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:55,240 this service or this application is is really alive, is really 493 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:58,120 operating it in the moment, which is, you know, on the other 494 00:24:58,120 --> 00:25:02,600 end of that continuum and sort of in the middle is things we 495 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:04,640 see with like age assurance where you're doing age 496 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:08,240 estimation that's a kind of is a person of a particular category. 497 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:12,720 And so wherever you have things like age restricted purchases, 498 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,120 you know, there's laws around age restricted purchase of a 499 00:25:16,120 --> 00:25:18,680 whole bunch of different things. In fact, in my South by 500 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:22,200 Southwest talk, I was showing how, you know, one state is, is 501 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:24,400 thinking about age restricting skin care. 502 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:27,040 Another one is age restricting, I don't know, other beauty 503 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:28,680 products. It's kind of weird. 504 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:33,160 So, so you can ask, you know, is a person older than 18? 505 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,400 It's kind of a species of personhood because it's less 506 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:38,040 specific than anyone in particular. 507 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:42,800 Does personhood extend to non persons? 508 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:47,600 So this idea of, you know, AI and agentic AI and all these 509 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:51,160 other bots and service accounts and non human identities, I feel 510 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,640 like there should be a way to verify those credentials as 511 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,320 well. So yeah, this really is the Venn 512 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:01,960 diagram AI versus the, you know, XYZ application, whatever it may 513 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,960 be. Is there a space for non 514 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,840 personhood in addition to personhood? 515 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,760 I could swear that one of Dave Birch's newsletters had one of 516 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,800 those wonderful cartoons about this, like, you know, swear 517 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:18,240 you're a bot or something. And that's, that's kind of, I 518 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:22,240 mean, we'd call that attestation right in the IoT world or device 519 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,520 or, you know, other non human entities. 520 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:29,280 And attestation of something is, you know, it's definitely a 521 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:30,640 thing. And I, I, I think it could be 522 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:32,160 valuable. You know, we have software 523 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:35,680 statements and things like that that we can use to assess 524 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:39,280 whether it's really the client app that we thought it was, for 525 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,560 example. So I think that it does 526 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:46,280 generalize across beyond humans, although as usual human versus 527 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,400 non human, say authentication, it's going to look different and 528 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:53,360 care less in the non human case about user experience. 529 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,600 So good. Let's talk about your EIC talk 530 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,600 at one-on-one level you're talking about stakeholder 531 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:07,600 management, which you know depending on what you're into 532 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,400 that might not sound super interesting, but you're really 533 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:15,280 talking about it in terms of this application in customer IM, 534 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,200 which I think, OK, that all starts getting interesting 535 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:20,880 because you're talking about these all these different 536 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,280 stakeholders outside of the technology space. 537 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:29,240 And even more than that, you're focusing on this space called or 538 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:31,960 these spaces called martech and adtech. 539 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,560 So all this starts to make you get really interesting really 540 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,240 fast. Let's start with what are 541 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,800 martech and adtech because those might be new terms for people. 542 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:45,920 Yeah. So martech is a very important 543 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:48,960 tech stack that marketing folks run. 544 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:52,600 And I would say the basis of it is kind of marketing automation, 545 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:57,000 the ability to send out all those messages to, you know, 546 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,960 that are personalized, that get people to buy, that get people 547 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,320 to go on to the buyer's journey. We've all experienced this. 548 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,800 Often times we talk about it from the privacy perspective of 549 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:10,360 being sort of stocked. But of course, a lot of us also 550 00:28:10,360 --> 00:28:14,400 welcome this personalization in these digital products, in these 551 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,920 experiences. So martech is marketing 552 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,480 technology basically. And so anybody who's ever, you 553 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:23,800 know, in a Siam circumstance, you might have had to connect to 554 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:27,000 marketo and there's a whole bunch of, you know, folks who do 555 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,120 what they do. That's part of it. 556 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:34,600 Adtech is where you get into the, the data, data brokering 557 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:39,440 marketplaces of the world, the things that make you be tracked 558 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:44,440 with cookies or other similar technology and have you as a 559 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:48,480 kind of heuristic fuzzy picture of a human, be presented to 560 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:52,080 these systems so that they can call it retargeting. 561 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:54,680 Where, you know, that's how their ads get served to you and 562 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,360 are personalized to you. And you're like, I swear I was 563 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:01,320 just talking about this, you know, in, in the neighborhood of 564 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,280 a, of an echo device yesterday and suddenly I'm getting ads for 565 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:07,360 the thing I was talking about. You know, that's how that's 566 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:10,600 happening basically. So they very much care about 567 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:14,720 identity by the way, but not they don't see it at all in the 568 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:18,040 way that we see it. And it's kind of more expansive. 569 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,320 There's even a standard in the space, kind of a standard in 570 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:24,960 industry driven standard called unified ID 2 dot O that I see 571 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,400 very little talk about in our industry, but it's literally 572 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:34,400 based on top of open ID connect. And so in the Venn diagram of 573 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:36,360 that world and this world, that's one thing that's like 574 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:38,400 right in the center. But like, I don't think 575 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:40,880 anybody's really aware, you know, certainly on our side 576 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:44,600 about it. So this has tied a lot to like 577 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,360 e-commerce level CIA. I'm right. 578 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:49,760 Who are the stakeholders that we're talking about? 579 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:53,080 Who are the the the main participants? 580 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:58,320 It's, I would say, you know, you're, it starts at the CMO and 581 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:00,920 might be like a chief digital officer or something like that 582 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,280 as well. So, you know, we have data lakes 583 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:07,480 when we think about the security aspects of identity, you know, 584 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,840 we're interacting more and more with SoC teams like, you know, 585 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:13,040 we can talk about identity security and all the new 586 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,840 acronyms and things like that, where there's some interesting 587 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,400 tussles between the identity world and the security world and 588 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:20,320 where identity even lives in security. 589 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:24,080 But when it comes to this Siam world and the fact that 590 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:29,960 marketing and customer data management people own the 591 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,560 proposition and by the way they're making a lot of money 592 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:36,640 for that whatever company, that's where we really have to 593 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,200 care about the stakeholder question because I was looking 594 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:43,560 up, you know, so ID Pro has a great vision state on the 595 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:47,480 website and it talks about the disciplines of digital identity 596 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:49,880 and access management are globally seen as vital and 597 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:53,240 vibrant counterparts to privacy and information security. 598 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:57,320 That's great stuff. We don't have all the data or 599 00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:01,440 all the use cases in our purview to be able to really execute to 600 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,600 that 100%. So that's why I think it's 601 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:07,960 important to kind of start to empathize with the whole 602 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,440 marketing side of the world and the customer data side of the 603 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:16,200 world because they absolutely have pains and needs around 604 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,440 things and identity going well. You know, looking at your 605 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,440 average description of Siam and all the things that it can do, 606 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:25,880 but they just don't know where to go to do better. 607 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:28,680 And certainly they don't know where to go to do better at some 608 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,240 of the privacy aspects. They, they, they interact a lot 609 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:33,680 with privacy professionals, with privacy leaders. 610 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,200 But again, there's, you know, separate goals and sometimes 611 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,560 competing goals there. Is your research and your work 612 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:46,680 focusing on consumers or customers of say a martech or ad 613 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:50,400 tech platform? Or is your research more about 614 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,960 how to run a mar tech grad tech platform from an identity 615 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,520 perspective? I guess I'd say where I came 616 00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:01,120 into this picture, it started with the whole EIC 2024 thing 617 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:03,680 where I went up there and said consent is dead and started to 618 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:05,360 have a bunch of conversations about that. 619 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:09,360 And, you know, having been able to lean on a lot of great 620 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:14,200 research that's been done, so for example, by Internet Safety 621 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,920 Labs, of which I'm a board member, I have to say that and 622 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:21,080 some other folks like Cracked Labs puts out a huge amount of 623 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:24,040 great research. And it's so looking at all that 624 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:27,000 stuff, I was sort of like, wow, did you guys know this identity 625 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,320 resolution thing is scary. It's, you know, heuristically 626 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:32,360 figuring out people and it can do it really well. 627 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:34,640 And it has nothing to do with somebody logging in and 628 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:39,120 confirming that they're them. So it started there and then it 629 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:43,240 proceeded to what advice can I give identity practitioners and 630 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:45,520 identity leaders about this situation? 631 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:50,880 And so in the, in the, the paper called Consent is Dead that I 632 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,080 ultimately wrote, there's advice about that. 633 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:55,480 And then I got the opportunity to go speak to a bunch of 634 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:57,200 customer data people and Martech people. 635 00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:01,360 And that was super interesting. I had to really rethink 636 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:05,680 everything and approach things from the perspective of really 637 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:07,600 doing the work of empathizing with them. 638 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,600 And one of the things that I'll share in the EIC talks, so 639 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:15,440 people may have seen this already, is there's a, a great 640 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,440 value framework that's been put together by a kind of marketing 641 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:23,760 wizard guy, Kyle Martinovich, the CDP value framework that's 642 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,760 customer data platform. And that's something that didn't 643 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:29,520 exist. CDPS didn't exist, you know, 644 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,520 back when, you know, we were all coming up with O auth and open 645 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:35,680 ID connect, but but it's existed for, you know, last 10 plus 646 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:37,160 years. And then everybody has one. 647 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,120 Any, you know, organization of any size that's consumer facing 648 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:41,880 has one. And so here I was talking to 649 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:44,960 these folks who care very much about that value framework, but 650 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:48,120 wouldn't have known where to slot in the identity value that 651 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:50,560 they can get by working with identity people. 652 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:52,680 So that's some of what I'll be sharing. 653 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:57,680 Yeah, I mean, I'm going to make up a fictitious scenario, but 654 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:02,040 let's say I sold training, right and I was able to get data from 655 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:05,080 Martech platform on where Eve lives. 656 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,400 Say you're coming to my website. Now I know where you live, I 657 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:11,880 know maybe something about your educational background and I 658 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,320 know something about your browsing history, So what you've 659 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:18,639 been looking at. So now I can build my portal to 660 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,880 have a specialized set up offerings. 661 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:27,040 That seems to me that all those different things lead to kind of 662 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,480 like a data governance question. Who owns those various pieces of 663 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,120 data? And then that branches out to, 664 00:34:33,159 --> 00:34:37,040 well, who are the stakeholders? Who are, you know, making the 665 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:41,360 decisions around which of those data elements can be shared, 666 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:48,320 which we can use for what, what source of information we use to 667 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:50,880 overwrite those. I think you made mention to me 668 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:55,520 that you know there's like 2000 attributes that are tracked 669 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:59,400 about you that are kind of like these are just known like 670 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:04,480 everybody who uses the Internet, these are these are had on you. 671 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:08,480 Yes, basically that's true. And, and that stat is just so 672 00:35:08,720 --> 00:35:12,800 crazy like to us hearing how how identifiable we are, even if we 673 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:15,440 didn't, you know, consciously share that information or the 674 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:21,440 right to, to have it be known. The average Siam profile, you 675 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,400 know, the average record might have 20 attributes. 676 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:29,640 And the profiles they have on you that you may not be 677 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:32,600 participating in are really at that two orders of magnitude 678 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:35,960 like 2000. And you can be identified, you 679 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:37,840 can be tracked. You know, these are when we 680 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,640 start talking about surveillance and a whole bunch of unpleasant 681 00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:42,280 things. But the world is working this 682 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:44,520 way now. And it's, by the way, working 683 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:48,800 this way in Europe now despite GDPR and all the protections 684 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:51,360 that we think that they have kind of, you know, at higher 685 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:53,480 levels than maybe some other jurisdictions. 686 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:58,760 So what do you do about this because I think it's AI think 687 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:00,040 part of this is an awareness issue. 688 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:03,560 So I was talking with a friend of mine over the weekend and he 689 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:08,480 was blown away when I showed him the ads preferences in Facebook 690 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,120 and all the things that knew about him. 691 00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:14,640 And he was not even aware that all this stuff was taking place 692 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:16,760 behind the scenes. And I feel like that is pretty 693 00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:17,800 average. That's pretty common, right? 694 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,360 Unless you're in this space and you really care about it, 695 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:24,280 chances are you're reading the, you know, the ula that flashes 696 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:25,000 on the screen. Yep. 697 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:27,280 Except I just want to use the thing that I want to use. 698 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,240 What do we do about this? Because there is so much data 699 00:36:30,240 --> 00:36:32,160 out there. And what happens if that data 700 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:35,320 somehow gets poisoned? If it's incorrect data or wrong 701 00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:38,520 data, how do you correct it? How does it not impact, you 702 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:41,920 know, an algorithm somewhere that either denies you or shows 703 00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:44,080 you things that you don't want to see or, you know, offensive 704 00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:45,920 or whatever it may be? Like what can we do about this? 705 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:50,560 I mean, GDPR is one of the, you know, pieces of legislation that 706 00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:53,320 gives people the right to go correct data that's incorrect. 707 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:55,120 But it's pretty onerous to do, right? 708 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:59,240 And I will say when I was asked that question after I finished 709 00:36:59,240 --> 00:37:03,160 up talking about consent is dead last year, I was stuck for an 710 00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:04,080 answer. What do you do? 711 00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:10,040 What I chose to do for the South by Southwest audience was, you 712 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:12,360 know, I I talked a little bit about zero trust and how they 713 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,440 say assume breach right, which is a good assumption for both 714 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:19,960 people and organizations. I suggested as well. 715 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:22,520 They need to start assuming tracking. 716 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:26,760 So assume breach. Yes, assume tracking absolutely, 717 00:37:28,240 --> 00:37:32,000 which is, you know, that's not a piece of advice that's sort of 718 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,240 actionable other than making you think before you share things 719 00:37:35,240 --> 00:37:38,480 you don't want to get out there. You know, the other joke that 720 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,800 might be made and especially given where Identiverse is held 721 00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,560 these days, you know, what happens on the Internet stays on 722 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:48,920 the Internet. So so like being aware is sort 723 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:51,840 of the first thing in terms of doing something about it as an 724 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:54,440 individual that can be really tough. 725 00:37:55,040 --> 00:38:00,720 There are things you can take on board that require some friction 726 00:38:00,720 --> 00:38:04,760 in your life to do, and that's not something I generally want 727 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:08,320 to ask people to do when it comes to identity professionals 728 00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:13,680 and what we can all do to support the efforts to give 729 00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:16,400 people more choice, give people more transparency when they are 730 00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:18,920 consumers of businesses and when you work for those businesses. 731 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:22,200 I think we have to, you know, if we take ID Pro's vision 732 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:24,440 seriously, we have to try it and do that. 733 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:28,920 And that requires understanding the value that is being created 734 00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:30,800 for the business of each of those pieces of data. 735 00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:34,160 So when you were talking about data governance, Jim, I totally 736 00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:36,440 agree. The way that a privacy 737 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:39,560 professional would see that is it's kind of a risk assessment 738 00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:40,920 for each piece of data collected. 739 00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:43,760 What I think we've been forgetting is the value 740 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:46,960 assessment. It's not done on a sort of datum 741 00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:50,360 by datum basis at all. I think it's possible. 742 00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:53,240 I know of some technologies that enable that kind of thinking, 743 00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:56,160 but it surely requires all the different stakeholders to get 744 00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:58,680 together to agree on what's the model and who's responsible. 745 00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:01,720 Like if you could actually say we store this piece of 746 00:39:01,720 --> 00:39:06,000 information, it's worth X to us, but it costs us X plus 747 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:11,520 something, Well now you can make an ironclad ROI case for not 748 00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:13,960 collecting it anymore, putting it on the edge, making it 749 00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:18,160 decentralized maybe. You know, I wonder if choice is 750 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:19,680 the keyword here. You mentioned it earlier. 751 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,160 I was OK, well, you know, what do we do about this? 752 00:39:22,240 --> 00:39:24,720 And I don't know if there's actually a good answer for that, 753 00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:27,080 right? I mean, it's just all this data 754 00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:29,280 is out there. It's out of your control for the 755 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:32,960 most part. Is the future of data management 756 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:35,280 when it comes to things like privacy and all these meta 757 00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:37,400 attributes that people are collecting, is it choice? 758 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:41,920 Is it as simple as yes, I will allow you to use my data in 759 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:45,040 exchange for this and because the service I find is valuable 760 00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:46,840 and you know like Google Maps is a great example. 761 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:50,280 Nobody. You know, most people I say walk 762 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:53,440 around or have in their glove box actual physical maps 763 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:55,160 anymore. It is far. 764 00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:56,560 Rare. Right. 765 00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,280 I mean, I grew up the age of, you know, you had a physical 766 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:01,440 map. I lived in Northwest, you know, 767 00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:03,360 or northeast Illinois in Chicago area. 768 00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:05,000 So I had one for Wisconsin too, right? 769 00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:07,160 And so I would have this map collection. 770 00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:11,240 Now it's Google Maps or Apple Maps, or, you know, whatever 771 00:40:11,240 --> 00:40:12,640 your mapping solution of choice is. 772 00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:16,320 But those are free products in quotation marks. 773 00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:18,560 You're the product at that point, right? 774 00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:22,160 It's your data that you are trading in exchange for the use 775 00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:26,120 of their service. So I think the awareness of, you 776 00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:28,080 know, when, when you kind of say that to somebody who doesn't 777 00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:30,120 think in these terms is like, oh, it's free. 778 00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:32,520 No, it's not like you're the product, right? 779 00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:34,200 Like it's, it's collecting data by you. 780 00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:36,320 It's it's helping feed the algorithm that says where 781 00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:39,040 there's a traffic jam on Google Maps by the number of phones, 782 00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:41,920 right, that are lined up at A, at a, like you're contributing 783 00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:44,680 to it, but you're also getting a benefit out of it. 784 00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:47,560 And I think you've got the choice at, at that low. 785 00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:50,360 You can either choose to use Google Maps or Apple Maps or 786 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:53,600 not. But a lot of these choices get 787 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:57,120 hidden behind menus and really they're a false choice. 788 00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,120 Are you really going to walk around physical maps? 789 00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:01,840 Sure. And. 790 00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:04,400 There and there's some abuse in that, right? 791 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,440 You know, there's kind of they talk about dark patterns or 792 00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:08,680 deceptive patterns of like, you know, making it easier to make 793 00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:11,080 one choice over another. And you can like sort of create 794 00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:13,560 a straight line to the business model from that. 795 00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:15,520 And that's something I've advocated for a long time and 796 00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:17,600 it's starting to be picked up in some places. 797 00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:21,360 Is the privacy policy really should be an explanation of the 798 00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:25,840 business model and what out of the three ways that you could 799 00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:32,360 pay for the service, money, data, attention, eyeballs, are 800 00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:35,080 they actually leveraging? And you know, you'd think it'd 801 00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:37,040 be a simple thing of, well, you could do one or the other. 802 00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:41,240 But then we had this whole sort of pay or OK scandal around, 803 00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:44,760 well, are we leaving some people out because they can't afford to 804 00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:48,040 pay to have privacy? So these are, these are 805 00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:51,360 unresolved questions. I think in the meantime, we can 806 00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:56,840 get sort of more incremental, incrementally improved systems 807 00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:59,840 that do respect choice. You know, I do believe privacy 808 00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:01,840 is context control choice and respect. 809 00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:05,280 Those are, you know, hard things for a for an organization to 810 00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:09,280 really sign up to all at once. But I think it's possible if we 811 00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:12,440 work with the counterparts that are in charge of making money 812 00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:16,800 off of data, plain and simple. Yeah, I have an example. 813 00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:22,760 So I was going through some old mail and I get an updated 814 00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:26,200 privacy policy from my auto lender. 815 00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:29,560 And it had a like, here's how we use your data. 816 00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:32,720 And one of the things was we share it with third parties. 817 00:42:32,720 --> 00:42:34,800 Yes. And then it was whether or not 818 00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:36,880 you could control it. The answer was yes. 819 00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:38,720 And I was like, I'm going to save this. 820 00:42:38,720 --> 00:42:40,640 I'm going to go tell them not to share my data. 821 00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:45,160 And then I thought, like, am I actually going to spend the time 822 00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:48,520 to go and do that? It seems like it would be a drop 823 00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:50,640 in the bucket. Yeah, right. 824 00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:52,720 And they probably aren't instrumented to do it well. 825 00:42:52,720 --> 00:42:54,160 And how do you prove that they did it? 826 00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:58,560 These are some of the questions. So we've been looking at it like 827 00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:01,400 there's, there's ways to solve some of these, but the first 828 00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:03,920 thing you got to do is assess the appetite of that 829 00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:06,840 organization to change if you're working from within it, right? 830 00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:09,240 You know, if you're working on some identity program within it, 831 00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:13,240 you can start to ask how open are they to something a little 832 00:43:13,240 --> 00:43:17,360 bit more innovative and turning away from the direct 833 00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:19,720 monetization of the personal data. 834 00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:23,320 And there are cases where that's possible, but there's kind of a 835 00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:25,320 maturity ladder there. And I think you need to sort of 836 00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:28,040 be responsive to what's possible there, otherwise you're banging 837 00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:31,240 your head against a wall. You know, and I feel like, OK, 838 00:43:31,240 --> 00:43:33,640 your mind goes to, well, we need more regulation. 839 00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:36,840 But then you get regulations like everybody has like their 840 00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:39,560 cookie policy now. It's like you can either accept 841 00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:42,720 it or beat it. And it's like, so you just say 842 00:43:42,720 --> 00:43:46,960 accept or you try and click close it without answering or 843 00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:50,520 something like that. So I don't know if more 844 00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:53,000 regulation is the answer. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's 845 00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:55,440 not because I think more regulation. 846 00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:58,600 Led to. Be getting that, yeah. 847 00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:02,200 I mean, usually anything that that comes out of that is, you 848 00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:05,840 know, an idea that's not going to work very well And then after 849 00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:09,680 it's out there like you're, you know, you wind up like doing it 850 00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:15,640 and it's ineffective. But Jeff, read up a scenario 851 00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:18,920 earlier, which was, are you getting these spam? 852 00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:20,440 I'm not even sure if it's on this call. 853 00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:24,440 We, we talk so much, but it was, you know, I keep getting these 854 00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:29,120 spam SMS messages that I owe money for toll roads. 855 00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:34,160 And like, I'm not worried if they're saying, hey, you were in 856 00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:37,600 San Francisco last week, so you might want to buy, you might 857 00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:39,960 want to go to Joe's Sourdough House. 858 00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:43,440 I'm OK with that. That doesn't bother me. 859 00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:49,080 What bothers me is like the low end spam, like nobody it it the 860 00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:51,760 scam spam I would call it. Totally. 861 00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:53,960 And like how? Do you smishing if I could block 862 00:44:54,240 --> 00:44:55,080 that? Click the link. 863 00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:59,360 Yeah, I mean, if I could block that, I'm sure everybody's 864 00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:01,960 sitting there saying something similar, Like if I could block 865 00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:05,240 that, I'd be I'd be a little bit happier in life. 866 00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:08,120 The answer is very simple. Just don't use text messaging, 867 00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:11,360 right? I mean, that's. 868 00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:13,560 That's the kind of friction fill thing. 869 00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:15,520 Right. But it's not realistic, right? 870 00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:18,720 We, we, we've grown to depend on these services. 871 00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:20,960 I mean, we get MFA through text messaging. 872 00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:23,560 So, you know, I mean we, we. Shouldn't we? 873 00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:25,520 Shouldn't. But it's still better than 874 00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:26,680 nothing, right? I. 875 00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:29,440 Mean, and this is a case where by the way, you know, when I was 876 00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:30,760 saying enterprises live in the past. 877 00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:33,960 So, you know, there are still organizations that are putting 878 00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:38,280 in place MFA with SMSOTPS right now that haven't even, you know, 879 00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:40,160 deployed it yet. And yet it's already been 880 00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:43,560 deprecated in the land of, you know, folks who follow NIST 881 00:45:44,240 --> 00:45:47,320 800-63. So like, you know, some things 882 00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:50,480 get get they degrade in quality over time. 883 00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:55,320 And yet if it takes a while to put in place the program, you 884 00:45:55,320 --> 00:46:00,440 know, two of my banks have been rolling out voice authentication 885 00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:04,400 and I want to say defakes. Like they just sort of missed 886 00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:06,920 the whole moment. We just did an entire AI 887 00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:08,920 episode, so it's it's gotten crazy. 888 00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:11,800 Yeah. And actually I heard that from 889 00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:15,640 some people that we sound better on the AI version, so I'll keep 890 00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:17,880 that in mind. All right, well, now I know. 891 00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:21,120 Yeah, exactly. I'll just script every single 892 00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:23,080 episode from here on out. That is my goal, though. 893 00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:26,720 Like I have an ulterior goal is at some point I'm going to have, 894 00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:30,240 you know, AI voices of Jim, you and I, and maybe even a guest if 895 00:46:30,240 --> 00:46:33,080 I can get them to agree to it. That's going to be virtually 896 00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:35,320 indistinguishable and the only thing you'll know is that 897 00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:39,200 there's no Oz. You know those little things, 898 00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:42,080 you know, you breathing into the mic, you know, like all that 899 00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:44,560 stuff. But I read a paper today that 900 00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:47,760 there is actually a new AI model that includes those things in 901 00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:48,760 it. Oh boy. 902 00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:49,760 And so of. Course there is. 903 00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:51,320 At some point, you're not going to know. 904 00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:55,160 And people will be directing their AI agents to go listen to 905 00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:56,920 the episodes and then where will we be? 906 00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:01,240 So, so, E, let's get back on track you. 907 00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:05,080 One of the things you told me was that you've been encouraging 908 00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:10,240 your clients to look at identity services as a product. 909 00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:14,080 So yes, tell me a little bit about what that means. 910 00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:20,720 So you know, if you have services that are available 911 00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:25,960 internally for app owners and others marketers, whoever who 912 00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:29,080 depend on those services, you got to be thinking about all the 913 00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:31,000 different customers for your product. 914 00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:34,560 And one of the trends that I've seen over the last few years is 915 00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:38,600 they're actually product managers in charge of identity 916 00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:41,040 and what it's delivering to the kind of internal ecosystem 917 00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:43,880 market. So this is where that four set 918 00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:47,520 then actually comes in. So for for those who are product 919 00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:51,440 managers, you'll be aware of the jobs to be done kind of 920 00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:55,800 methodology where you're really looking kind of under the covers 921 00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:57,680 of what people say they want out of a product. 922 00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:00,160 You're looking at what they actually need, kind of the end 923 00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:04,160 state of what they need. And that's where I sort of came 924 00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:08,640 up with the four things that I think identity delivers to 925 00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:15,000 different parties, protection, personalization, payment and 926 00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:19,920 things people want. So the four PS So I think that 927 00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:22,560 it's possible to find all the different use cases. 928 00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:26,920 So security protection, privacy protection, fraud protection, 929 00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:29,440 all of the kind of cross sell and upsell. 930 00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:31,840 And you know, this whole CDP value framework that I was 931 00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:35,280 talking about, all the things that the marketeers want out of 932 00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:36,880 things that connect with identity. 933 00:48:37,240 --> 00:48:42,200 You can start to sort out what's important and you can sort out 934 00:48:42,240 --> 00:48:45,880 who it's important to by looking at those four things and their 935 00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:50,800 intersections. So being that this is the go to 936 00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:54,480 podcast for the identity practitioner, I want to ask you 937 00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:59,520 #1 you know, from a practitioner perspective, what do we need to 938 00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:02,680 know about this topic? The stakeholder management when 939 00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:07,960 it comes to CIM and, and you know, specific to thinking about 940 00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:11,240 this e-commerce situation where we have the martech and the ad 941 00:49:11,240 --> 00:49:15,080 tech element to it, what do we need to know? 942 00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:20,560 And then do we own it? Is that IMS to solve or what is 943 00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:25,480 our role? Sometimes the identity team owns 944 00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:28,600 some of this and sometimes it clearly doesn't. 945 00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:31,960 It's interfacing with others who have the primary responsibility. 946 00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:35,280 And this is where, you know, I'm going to say racy chart because 947 00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:37,880 it's just sort of the easy, you know, go to framework for this 948 00:49:38,240 --> 00:49:40,040 one of the. I was fucking a ven chart. 949 00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:43,640 I mean, there is a been, but like you have to, this is how 950 00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:46,760 you start sorting out like who kind of really owns what and who 951 00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:49,000 cares about what and to what level they care about it. 952 00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:53,080 And I would say you need to start looking at each of the use 953 00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:55,000 cases. So like I've seen a bunch of 954 00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:57,800 RFPs where all the use cases are broken down. 955 00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:02,080 And the interesting thing to me is they don't necessarily break 956 00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:05,120 down on along product lines or on stakeholder lines. 957 00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:09,400 Like, you know, the one example I always sort of reach for comes 958 00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:13,360 more from identity versus security as opposed to this 959 00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:16,400 marketing conversation. Like, you know, your CIO is 960 00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:19,480 going to care and their folks are going to care a lot about 961 00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:22,480 fast, efficient, accurate provisioning. 962 00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:28,080 It's the people who are risk facing who care about fast, 963 00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:33,160 accurate deprovisioning. Are you looking at a different 964 00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:37,120 product? No, so that's kind of the 965 00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:39,000 challenge. And so like I was, I was just 966 00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:42,040 talking to some folks, a bunch of seesos who were talking about 967 00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:45,880 the, you know, is the identity team part of your security team? 968 00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:51,320 And what they were seeing was about 50% are, and I don't know 969 00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:53,880 if that tracks with your experience, but it just shows 970 00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:56,920 the challenge of trying to sort through, well, do you own it? 971 00:50:56,920 --> 00:50:59,680 Well, up through the chain I do or directly I do. 972 00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:03,080 Or, you know, how does the SoC team interact with the identity 973 00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:06,280 team when we've got this whole new identity security landscape? 974 00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:08,400 Those are some of the questions you can start to sort. 975 00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:13,320 I think my my experience with those contracts with Jeff was 976 00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:15,800 saying earlier were like the clients that I've worked with. 977 00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:21,000 So usually when I get called in to kind of like herd the cats, 978 00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:24,760 it's because the IM person is the leader. 979 00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:29,160 The IM person is trying to get all these stakeholders together 980 00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:32,800 to do some sort of digital transformation or something like 981 00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:37,360 that. One of the the biggest topics 982 00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:40,320 that I find that needs to be done is that you have all the 983 00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:43,840 people who are more than happy to represent their lane. 984 00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:47,760 Informational security will represent the lane of security 985 00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:52,280 and and the risk side of the house and IT fast, efficient, 986 00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:54,560 secure. We're using the right platform, 987 00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:56,960 we've got the right infrastructure, marketing. 988 00:51:56,960 --> 00:52:02,960 I just want to sell more stuff and somebody's got to get all 989 00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:06,240 that to OK, there's only going to be 1 website, not three 990 00:52:06,240 --> 00:52:09,880 different websites, for example, a website. 991 00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:15,480 But then also, I think one thing that you've got to do if you're 992 00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:17,880 like trying to hurt all these people is get them to be 993 00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:21,720 empathetic to the needs of the other groups because they're, 994 00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:24,040 it's like everybody's swimming in one pool. 995 00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:28,920 There's no, you know, you guys stay over here, you guys stay 996 00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:31,640 over there. It's all just one body of water. 997 00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:34,640 Yep. And This is why even with all 998 00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:38,640 the AI tools to help things, you know, it comes down to human 999 00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:41,640 relationships, even working within an organization. 1000 00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:44,280 And I, I don't see a way to really change that. 1001 00:52:44,440 --> 00:52:46,000 We're going to have to talk to each other and we're going to 1002 00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:49,280 have to figure it out and we're going to have to clarify some 1003 00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:50,960 things that are still kind of squishy. 1004 00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:54,280 Yeah. So, you know, I think a lot of 1005 00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:57,720 what we're talking about, it sounds a lot like identity 1006 00:52:57,720 --> 00:53:02,680 security. And what are your thoughts 1007 00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:04,760 there? I mean, like identity security 1008 00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:08,960 definitely seems to be kind of this new concept, which I think 1009 00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:10,600 we're all trying to wrap our heads around. 1010 00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:14,080 Is it actually indifferent or we just talked about the same stuff 1011 00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:18,800 differently? You know, I'm glad that this is 1012 00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:21,680 the stakeholder conversation is happening more in earnest now. 1013 00:53:22,720 --> 00:53:24,960 It's, you know, couldn't come at a better time because we do need 1014 00:53:24,960 --> 00:53:29,880 to contribute with identity to the security conversation more 1015 00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:32,480 than ever because there's problems more than ever, right? 1016 00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:35,880 And so that's the challenge that identity have has in that it's 1017 00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:38,840 not, you know, if it really is an internal product to a whole 1018 00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:41,240 bunch of stakeholders, it's doing something important and 1019 00:53:41,240 --> 00:53:44,080 it's one of those things that's supposed to be securing things 1020 00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:47,080 better. But what happens when it's a 1021 00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:50,680 source of insecurity? That's like, embarrassing. 1022 00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:53,200 Let's. Just call it a bit. 1023 00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:58,480 So that kind of dual nature of identity has been the challenge. 1024 00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:01,840 And I think what's coming to the fore is we, we do have new 1025 00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:05,400 technologies, we have AI, people are using graph, we're, we're 1026 00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:09,560 getting better visibility across kind of the identity of state. 1027 00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:15,120 And that's enabling us to have better solutions to closing 1028 00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:19,280 gaps, tying up loose ends, doing a good job of whatever it was 1029 00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:23,680 we're doing in the 1st place. So so I kind of like that we've 1030 00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:28,920 got these new augmentations of capabilities that are just just 1031 00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:32,960 giving us better sight over everything the the arguments 1032 00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:36,120 about like what is ITDRA thing like that's all over now. 1033 00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:38,720 We we seem to have some agreement, rough agreement in 1034 00:54:38,720 --> 00:54:40,600 the industry around, you know, what does ITDR mean? 1035 00:54:40,600 --> 00:54:44,200 What does ISPN mean? But I like identity security as 1036 00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:45,920 a bucket, as a kind of a sub bucket. 1037 00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:49,680 Yeah, I like identity security as a bucket because it's pushing 1038 00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:53,400 the identity practitioner to think about more than just 1039 00:54:53,400 --> 00:55:00,240 what's in their lane. But I, where I, I stop is that I 1040 00:55:00,240 --> 00:55:04,840 don't think this puts these things in our lane just because 1041 00:55:04,840 --> 00:55:07,240 we have to be aware of them, just because we have to 1042 00:55:07,240 --> 00:55:10,640 contribute to, to them, say something like logging, 1043 00:55:10,640 --> 00:55:13,720 alerting, or, you know, defending their perimeter. 1044 00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:17,720 All these things because they used an identity element now 1045 00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:22,440 doesn't make them something that the identity practitioner owns. 1046 00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:26,120 Just like, you know, in the olden days when we ran all of 1047 00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:29,520 our stuff on servers, just because we put our identity 1048 00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:32,760 software on a server didn't mean that we own the server, right? 1049 00:55:32,760 --> 00:55:34,920 The infrastructure team owns the server. 1050 00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:39,560 Just because we contribute to policies and standards doesn't 1051 00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:45,400 mean we own, you know, that the the governance processes around, 1052 00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:49,880 you know, turning those into controls and you know, testing 1053 00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:52,080 those controls, that's owned by the audit team. 1054 00:55:52,240 --> 00:55:54,080 We always had to work with other people. 1055 00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:58,040 We need to know how their lanes operated to some extent. 1056 00:55:58,240 --> 00:56:01,520 They need to contribute to some extent, but it doesn't mean we 1057 00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:05,400 own those things. I think identity security almost 1058 00:56:05,400 --> 00:56:09,520 like it's like, put it this way, there's all these companies that 1059 00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:14,080 identity conferences now saying we're, you know, identity 1060 00:56:14,080 --> 00:56:16,640 security. So the people who go to identity 1061 00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:19,720 conferences are mostly identity practitioners, right? 1062 00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:22,280 This was the conversation I was just having is like, well, 1063 00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:25,280 where, where are these tools being used? 1064 00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:29,400 And so far I'm seeing kind of an even split between explicit 1065 00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:33,320 identity teams and like sock teams, right? 1066 00:56:33,960 --> 00:56:37,800 Cause and in a way that's elevating identity to a new 1067 00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:40,320 level of visibility for the CISO. 1068 00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:43,640 And, you know, the, the, the Cheeto conversation seems to 1069 00:56:43,640 --> 00:56:46,280 have subsided a little bit. But, you know, I do see Ciso's 1070 00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:50,160 having a lot more knowledge, direct knowledge about identity 1071 00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:53,520 needs and problems and solutions. 1072 00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:55,640 So I mean, it can't, can't be a bad thing, right? 1073 00:56:55,640 --> 00:56:57,560 We were a small town. We're growing into a bigger 1074 00:56:57,560 --> 00:56:59,760 city. You know, those, those are, I 1075 00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:01,120 think, good things. But we do have to have that 1076 00:57:01,120 --> 00:57:03,680 conversation maybe in each organization about, you know, 1077 00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:06,120 well, what's the, what's the structure of who owns what? 1078 00:57:06,120 --> 00:57:12,000 Let me just talk about it. Well, I wonder if the it's time 1079 00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:17,000 for a macro discussion around the space of identity, because I 1080 00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:19,640 hear identity risk and I hear a qualifier. 1081 00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:22,320 Oh well, we care risk. I hear identity, security, 1082 00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:25,160 another qualifier. I only care about security, 1083 00:57:25,640 --> 00:57:28,600 identity, privacy and consent. More qualifiers. 1084 00:57:29,480 --> 00:57:32,120 Is it just identity? And then I start to think as 1085 00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:34,360 well as a digital identity. No, Digital is another 1086 00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:37,320 qualifier. Right, the website is identity 1087 00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:39,720 right? And, and now we start to get 1088 00:57:39,720 --> 00:57:41,920 into, you know, physical identity, right? 1089 00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:45,080 Or you know, you know, you're you're a human being identity, 1090 00:57:45,080 --> 00:57:45,840 right? Stuff like that. 1091 00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:50,040 And I just every time I hear something identity, it's some 1092 00:57:50,040 --> 00:57:52,080 sort of qualifier identity at the center. 1093 00:57:52,080 --> 00:57:53,160 Guess what? Qualifier. 1094 00:57:55,000 --> 00:57:58,400 You're part of the problem. But honestly, I mean, This is 1095 00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:00,480 why, you know, if you're going to have a shared service and if 1096 00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:03,960 the service is going to be shared widely enough, it's going 1097 00:58:03,960 --> 00:58:07,080 to touch every part of the organization and be subject to 1098 00:58:07,360 --> 00:58:11,200 all of those kind of sharing forces more than anything else. 1099 00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:13,720 And that's something we haven't really looked in the eye as a 1100 00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:17,640 challenge until recently. And I'm, I'm glad of that 1101 00:58:17,640 --> 00:58:20,240 conversation, right? It's like, let's figure out what 1102 00:58:20,240 --> 00:58:22,560 it's valuable for all the things it's valuable for. 1103 00:58:22,560 --> 00:58:26,160 For every company, it's going to be a little different actually, 1104 00:58:26,600 --> 00:58:30,320 And that's OK. But you know, there's value in a 1105 00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:34,880 service that's so widely used to do so many things. 1106 00:58:36,200 --> 00:58:38,240 Just means that the picture looks a little diffuse when you 1107 00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:40,160 when you hand out ownership for any one piece of it. 1108 00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:44,040 Well, maybe it's time to have an identity team, not an Infrasac 1109 00:58:44,040 --> 00:58:47,680 team or an infrastructure team. And that identity team probably 1110 00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:50,600 has a broad set of skill sets that takes it across any number 1111 00:58:50,600 --> 00:58:51,480 of areas. I don't know, right? 1112 00:58:51,480 --> 00:58:54,400 I mean, there's any number of ways that we can slice this one 1113 00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:57,920 out, but I every time I hear something new in identity, it's 1114 00:58:57,920 --> 00:58:59,440 like, OK, it's a new concept, right? 1115 00:58:59,440 --> 00:59:01,480 We one of the episodes we've done in a lot of fast is what's 1116 00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:03,760 the difference between digital identity and identity and access 1117 00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:05,280 management and. I remember that one. 1118 00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:08,480 We had 48 different answers from 48 different people, right? 1119 00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:11,320 Yeah, but mine was right. Oh, well, of course, yes, 1120 00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:14,560 because the context in which you were answering it was right. 1121 00:59:14,840 --> 00:59:16,600 And that was the big thing was like, OK, it depends on who 1122 00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:18,320 you're talking to and blah, blah, blah. 1123 00:59:18,560 --> 00:59:21,320 And so, OK, so now it's identity security. 1124 00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:25,600 I'm going to guess in six months to a year, somebody's going to 1125 00:59:25,600 --> 00:59:29,760 start calling it identity risk or some other juicy acronym that 1126 00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:31,680 we can kind of rally behind. That's great. 1127 00:59:32,480 --> 00:59:34,880 I like to just get to the space of, OK, we're in identity. 1128 00:59:35,200 --> 00:59:39,200 We do identity things. And so that encompasses all of 1129 00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:44,160 this stuff, usability, risk, privacy, consent, governance, 1130 00:59:44,920 --> 00:59:47,800 laws, regulations, right? All that stuff is really under 1131 00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:49,720 the identity umbrella. That's a big umbrella. 1132 00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:52,000 It is. That's what it looks like. 1133 00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:53,760 That Venn diagram looks like an umbrella. 1134 00:59:54,760 --> 00:59:56,200 There you go. See, that's how we tie it all 1135 00:59:56,200 --> 00:59:58,800 together. So so I asked you, we we asked 1136 00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:02,280 you all the hard questions about identity, or maybe they're easy, 1137 01:00:02,280 --> 01:00:03,560 depending on how we want to go on this. 1138 01:00:04,080 --> 01:00:05,960 We want to end the show on a lighter note. 1139 01:00:06,960 --> 01:00:10,000 And the question I've got for you is a would you rather 1140 01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:13,880 question? So would you rather have a one 1141 01:00:13,880 --> 01:00:17,280 minute conversation with yourself from the past? 1142 01:00:17,920 --> 01:00:20,920 Or one minute conversation from yourself in the future. 1143 01:00:21,680 --> 01:00:25,600 Every time I look back on my past, I think, gosh, I, I don't 1144 01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:28,240 know, 10 years ago, six years ago, 50 years ago, whatever. 1145 01:00:28,480 --> 01:00:30,240 I was clueless. I didn't know anything. 1146 01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:32,120 Well, at least you're saying that then. 1147 01:00:32,120 --> 01:00:33,680 I'm still saying that now. I was like, I don't know what's 1148 01:00:33,680 --> 01:00:36,000 going. On I'm still yeah, I mean, 1149 01:00:36,240 --> 01:00:38,760 anytime In the past, I was definitely more clueless than I 1150 01:00:38,760 --> 01:00:40,840 am now. So my vote is I want to have a 1151 01:00:40,840 --> 01:00:42,760 one minute conversation with myself in the future. 1152 01:00:43,160 --> 01:00:45,200 And what would you tell yourself would it be? 1153 01:00:45,720 --> 01:00:48,200 Here's a stock tip. By Apple. 1154 01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:53,960 I was just rereading an old Ray Bradbury short story called 1155 01:00:53,960 --> 01:00:59,200 Night Call Collect where it's an old guy, last one guy stuck on 1156 01:00:59,200 --> 01:01:03,000 Mars who keeps getting called by his younger self on the phone. 1157 01:01:03,640 --> 01:01:06,240 That sounds cool. It is cool and sort of 1158 01:01:06,240 --> 01:01:08,960 frightening. It keeps making me think like AI 1159 01:01:08,960 --> 01:01:11,520 agents and delegation on behalf of stuff. 1160 01:01:11,520 --> 01:01:13,280 You know, these are the things, the questions it's bringing up 1161 01:01:13,280 --> 01:01:15,920 in my mind. But like, would I rather have 1162 01:01:15,920 --> 01:01:17,800 been the young guy or the old guy? 1163 01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:21,240 And I think thinking about the story, so maybe some of the 1164 01:01:21,800 --> 01:01:23,480 watchers listeners will know the story. 1165 01:01:24,240 --> 01:01:26,720 I mean, I'd rather be the young guy because everything looks 1166 01:01:26,720 --> 01:01:29,760 great for the future and all the possibilities are still there. 1167 01:01:29,760 --> 01:01:33,640 So I when I'm asking myself a question, am I the young younger 1168 01:01:33,640 --> 01:01:35,760 me or the older me asking the question? 1169 01:01:38,160 --> 01:01:39,280 She doesn't make me think too hard. 1170 01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:41,920 Well, that's why I said maybe it's the harder question out of 1171 01:01:41,920 --> 01:01:43,480 all this stuff. Let's go back to the identity 1172 01:01:43,480 --> 01:01:47,440 stuff, that stuff we know. Jim, what about you? 1173 01:01:47,440 --> 01:01:50,600 Would you talk to yourself from the past or talk to yourself in 1174 01:01:50,600 --> 01:01:51,920 the future? And I'm going to exclude talk to 1175 01:01:51,920 --> 01:01:53,560 yourself in the current because I know you already do that. 1176 01:01:54,680 --> 01:01:58,960 Yeah, I definitely do that. I'm going to go with my future 1177 01:01:58,960 --> 01:02:01,240 self because I'd rather get advice. 1178 01:02:01,520 --> 01:02:05,400 I mean, sometimes I wish I was younger again. 1179 01:02:05,560 --> 01:02:13,840 I could do certain things over again, but I don't know if I 1180 01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:17,440 don't, what would I have more money or things like that? 1181 01:02:17,440 --> 01:02:19,080 Yeah, I certainly I could have set that up. 1182 01:02:19,080 --> 01:02:21,440 But, you know, one minute you could do it. 1183 01:02:21,440 --> 01:02:23,520 Exactly what you said. Invest in Apple. 1184 01:02:23,520 --> 01:02:27,920 OK, so now you have more money. Is that what would make your 1185 01:02:27,920 --> 01:02:30,160 life better? You don't. 1186 01:02:30,240 --> 01:02:33,680 Everything that happened between your younger self and now, 1187 01:02:35,360 --> 01:02:38,000 you're here now. So you didn't die in a car 1188 01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:43,720 accident or something like that. You couldn't avoid that by by 1189 01:02:43,720 --> 01:02:45,920 going and visiting your old, your younger self. 1190 01:02:45,920 --> 01:02:49,720 Now, if you're sitting there and like something had happened to 1191 01:02:49,720 --> 01:02:52,320 you and you're like, OK, I got to say, don't get it on that 1192 01:02:52,320 --> 01:02:57,480 plane to, you know, wherever because that would be like 1193 01:02:57,480 --> 01:02:59,400 really bad. That's what ruined your life. 1194 01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:02,520 I don't have one of those like moments. 1195 01:03:03,040 --> 01:03:06,440 I guess you got a series of beds decisions that I've made over. 1196 01:03:06,440 --> 01:03:09,200 Time like starting a podcast and trying to do one that episode 1197 01:03:09,200 --> 01:03:11,960 every week. I think talking to myself from 1198 01:03:11,960 --> 01:03:17,400 the future would yield me like, OK, you know, there's let's say 1199 01:03:17,400 --> 01:03:21,880 I talked to 80 year old self and I'm 50 now I've got some advice 1200 01:03:21,880 --> 01:03:24,760 for like what should I do for the next 30 years? 1201 01:03:24,760 --> 01:03:28,360 Maybe I would fuse yourself and say buy Apple. 1202 01:03:29,600 --> 01:03:33,040 I don't know, right? But it might be like, hey, 1203 01:03:33,800 --> 01:03:39,640 retire younger or do these things or don't quit working at 1204 01:03:39,880 --> 01:03:42,800 at don't retire at 55. I don't know. 1205 01:03:43,640 --> 01:03:45,400 But I'd like to have that advice now. 1206 01:03:45,400 --> 01:03:47,600 So I. Think this is an interesting 1207 01:03:47,600 --> 01:03:49,840 question. I think it's, it's are you, are 1208 01:03:49,840 --> 01:03:54,000 you satisfied with your past really kind of determines and 1209 01:03:54,000 --> 01:03:57,320 your I guess, and your current state would really determine 1210 01:03:57,320 --> 01:03:59,440 whether or not you want to talk to your future self or your past 1211 01:03:59,440 --> 01:04:01,600 self. Like do you go back in time 1212 01:04:01,640 --> 01:04:05,160 essentially and try to correct a mistake or position yourself 1213 01:04:05,160 --> 01:04:06,920 better from wherever you currently are? 1214 01:04:06,920 --> 01:04:10,040 Or are you in a good spot right now and you want to make sure 1215 01:04:10,040 --> 01:04:13,040 you stay in that good spot or get to a better spot, you know, 1216 01:04:13,200 --> 01:04:14,560 in the future? Maybe that's where you talk to 1217 01:04:14,560 --> 01:04:17,880 your future self. I just thought of a sci-fi twist 1218 01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:21,280 to this. So let's take that same question 1219 01:04:21,400 --> 01:04:22,920 and let's say you can choose, right? 1220 01:04:22,920 --> 01:04:25,120 You can go as far back or as far forward as you want and 1221 01:04:25,120 --> 01:04:30,000 everybody can do it, but you can only go as far forward as you 1222 01:04:30,280 --> 01:04:34,000 are alive. And so some people like, oh, 1223 01:04:34,000 --> 01:04:36,480 I'll go 30 years in the future and they don't get a phone call 1224 01:04:38,280 --> 01:04:41,240 or 10 minutes in the future. They don't get a phone call, 1225 01:04:42,280 --> 01:04:44,920 right? That knowledge of something is 1226 01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:49,880 going to happen in my future between zero and X number of 1227 01:04:49,880 --> 01:04:52,320 days of when I decide I want to receive that phone call. 1228 01:04:53,640 --> 01:04:56,040 How does that affect the rest of your life? 1229 01:04:57,880 --> 01:04:59,120 There's like the questions we face. 1230 01:04:59,160 --> 01:05:01,400 Do we do we do genetic testing to find out? 1231 01:05:02,240 --> 01:05:04,360 That's like Twilight Zone stuff right there. 1232 01:05:04,360 --> 01:05:06,240 This is like an episode. Of White Mirror, Black Mirror. 1233 01:05:06,720 --> 01:05:09,640 Yeah, I still haven't watched a new season yet, so I'm, I'm, I'm 1234 01:05:09,640 --> 01:05:12,400 behind on that one. But yeah, for, for those Black 1235 01:05:12,400 --> 01:05:14,480 Mirror fans, this this is turning into a Black Mirror 1236 01:05:14,480 --> 01:05:16,880 episode or a Twilight Zone. Oh dear. 1237 01:05:17,960 --> 01:05:21,520 OK, I, I feel like I absorbed some of Jim in that one because 1238 01:05:21,520 --> 01:05:24,720 I, I took it maybe down a little bit downer from it so. 1239 01:05:25,360 --> 01:05:28,280 Yeah, dark man. I've got just the upper you 1240 01:05:28,280 --> 01:05:29,600 need. Do you want to meet the real 1241 01:05:29,600 --> 01:05:31,360 star of impactors? Let's get. 1242 01:05:31,360 --> 01:05:34,600 Sabrina on here while you're going to get we we, she was very 1243 01:05:34,600 --> 01:05:36,840 disappointed about a lot of the privacy and consent talk that we 1244 01:05:36,840 --> 01:05:38,440 were talking through. And you could tell that she 1245 01:05:38,440 --> 01:05:40,520 really wanted to join the conversation as you were kind of 1246 01:05:40,520 --> 01:05:43,640 getting there. But oh, there she is, Sabrina. 1247 01:05:44,320 --> 01:05:48,320 Your fans await. Starofgunfactory.com, star of 1248 01:05:48,320 --> 01:05:50,640 now of the Identity Center YouTube channel. 1249 01:05:51,760 --> 01:05:55,720 Is she a Chihuahua 6? And 1/2. 6 1/2 and what kind of. 1250 01:05:57,000 --> 01:05:59,520 Doug Pomeranian, Chihuahua miniature poodle. 1251 01:06:00,280 --> 01:06:03,360 She's a Pomchi poo. And she's a sweet girl. 1252 01:06:03,360 --> 01:06:05,480 She looks a lot like one of my my puppies. 1253 01:06:05,480 --> 01:06:09,040 It was an Australia dog and or Carolina dog, I should say, 1254 01:06:09,440 --> 01:06:11,960 looks like an Australian shepherd, Shibu, sort of like 1255 01:06:11,960 --> 01:06:12,880 that. And it has the same kind of 1256 01:06:12,880 --> 01:06:16,720 colorings and stuff like that. So I, when I was researching, 1257 01:06:16,800 --> 01:06:19,040 you know, for this episode and I went to your website, I saw that 1258 01:06:19,040 --> 01:06:20,200 video. I called my wife downstairs. 1259 01:06:20,200 --> 01:06:21,840 I was like, look, this is the best part of this website, 1260 01:06:21,840 --> 01:06:23,840 right? Here I had to do it with her 1261 01:06:23,840 --> 01:06:25,960 because otherwise she was like interfering with the shots. 1262 01:06:25,960 --> 01:06:27,600 So you know, that way she helped me. 1263 01:06:28,160 --> 01:06:30,160 Well, dogs are always welcome on this show, right? 1264 01:06:30,720 --> 01:06:33,280 Awesome. You're always think of when I 1265 01:06:33,280 --> 01:06:36,880 see a Chihuahua Sierra Taco Bell. 1266 01:06:39,640 --> 01:06:41,000 OK, I don't know how we can top that. 1267 01:06:41,000 --> 01:06:43,520 So let's end with Sabrina and Eve. 1268 01:06:43,520 --> 01:06:45,040 Thank you so much for taking the time with us. 1269 01:06:45,040 --> 01:06:46,840 We're going to have a bunch of links in our show notes. 1270 01:06:47,120 --> 01:06:49,760 Connect with Eve on LinkedIn, visit her website, 1271 01:06:49,760 --> 01:06:52,760 thenfactory.com, Venn, factory.com. 1272 01:06:52,760 --> 01:06:54,960 Say hello to Sabrina as you click that video on the front. 1273 01:06:55,520 --> 01:06:58,360 And yeah, our discount codes are always on our homepage, IDC, 1274 01:06:58,360 --> 01:07:01,880 podcast.com, Like and subscribe, share with friends, share with 1275 01:07:01,880 --> 01:07:03,800 enemies, doesn't matter. As long as people are listening, 1276 01:07:03,800 --> 01:07:05,840 like and subscribing, don't really care. 1277 01:07:05,840 --> 01:07:07,760 And yeah, that's it. We'll go ahead and leave it for 1278 01:07:07,760 --> 01:07:09,240 this week. Thank you, Eve. 1279 01:07:09,520 --> 01:07:12,320 Thank you, Sabrina. And we'll talk with you all in 1280 01:07:12,320 --> 01:07:13,160 the next one. Take care. 1281 01:07:15,760 --> 01:07:18,760 You've been listening to Identity at the Center. 1282 01:07:19,160 --> 01:07:23,240 We hope you've enjoyed the show. Make sure to like, rate and 1283 01:07:23,240 --> 01:07:26,840 review, and we'll be back soon. But in the meantime, hit the 1284 01:07:26,840 --> 01:07:30,280 website at identity@thecenter.com. 1285 01:07:30,880 --> 01:07:34,960 See you next time on Identity at the Center.