1 00:00:09,700 --> 00:00:12,500 You're listening to the identity of the center podcast. 2 00:00:12,700 --> 00:00:14,900 This is the show that talks about identity and access 3 00:00:14,900 --> 00:00:18,000 management and making sure you know who has access to what? 4 00:00:18,100 --> 00:00:21,600 Let's get started. Welcome to the identity of the 5 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:23,400 center podcast I'm Jeff and that's Jim. 6 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:25,300 Hey, Jim. Hey, Jeff, how are you not too 7 00:00:25,308 --> 00:00:27,100 bad? Yourself doing great. 8 00:00:27,100 --> 00:00:30,600 I don't us today and they were part of the conference. 9 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:35,100 So just a reminder, were here at the authenticate conference 2022 10 00:00:35,300 --> 00:00:37,600 in Seattle. Put on by the fire, do it? 11 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:42,300 Lions and your Shaker the executive director has done some 12 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:47,600 major solid by making the podcast Booth available for us 13 00:00:47,900 --> 00:00:51,300 and making introductions to a lot of the guests that we've had 14 00:00:51,300 --> 00:00:53,900 this week. So thank you to Andrew, and also 15 00:00:53,900 --> 00:00:56,200 thanks for the donuts. Yeah. 16 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:57,400 More important. Who cares about other stuff? 17 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:00,600 Like it's like the donuts, you know, I'm a fan of any 18 00:01:00,900 --> 00:01:03,900 conference that lets you kind of create your own thing. 19 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:06,800 So for those who weren't here and I'm sorry you missed it, 20 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:09,700 they had sort of These fresh like kind of like doughnut holes 21 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:11,800 and then they had the different, like toppings, you can put on 22 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:13,800 top of it like cinnamon and sugar. 23 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:16,100 And I think there was like strawberry and stuff like that. 24 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:19,200 So well done. I don't know if strategically it 25 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:22,600 was the right decision to make because it was just after the 26 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:26,400 first morning sessions so I can kind of feel sort of like that 27 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:28,500 that sugar coma coming on a little bit. 28 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:30,200 So we're gonna have to fight through it. 29 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:31,200 Like the professionals that we are. 30 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:36,700 Jim yeah that might be diabetes but hopefully not yet Jim. 31 00:01:36,700 --> 00:01:38,200 You're a total down. Best week. 32 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:42,700 Sometimes, let's go ahead and get to our guest. 33 00:01:42,900 --> 00:01:44,100 We're very excited to have her here. 34 00:01:44,100 --> 00:01:46,200 Her name is Sarah Clark. She's the senior vice president 35 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:47,700 for digital identity at MasterCard. 36 00:01:47,700 --> 00:01:49,100 Welcome to the show. Thank you. 37 00:01:49,100 --> 00:01:51,300 It's a pleasure to be here. Did you get any donuts? 38 00:01:51,500 --> 00:01:55,600 I did not, I somehow missed that entire experience now, I'm 39 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:56,900 regretful. Yeah, okay. 40 00:01:56,900 --> 00:01:59,900 Well, you can live vicariously through us and apparently, 41 00:01:59,900 --> 00:02:01,300 diabetes. So thanks Jim. 42 00:02:03,900 --> 00:02:06,100 Let's talk a bit about your identity background, because one 43 00:02:06,100 --> 00:02:07,600 of the things we like to do on the show was whatever. 44 00:02:07,700 --> 00:02:11,000 If someone new is to really kind of learn where they came from, 45 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:14,900 what their identity origin story is, and so we kind of helps put 46 00:02:14,900 --> 00:02:17,100 the conversation in context, makka pakka, few different 47 00:02:17,100 --> 00:02:19,700 things here today. But for those who aren't 48 00:02:19,700 --> 00:02:23,300 familiar with Sarah, who is, you know, why did you get into the 49 00:02:23,300 --> 00:02:25,400 identity space? Is something that you chose, or 50 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:29,900 did it choose you? So I've been in tech for about 51 00:02:29,900 --> 00:02:34,900 25 years now and I've always been attracted to bleeding edge. 52 00:02:34,900 --> 00:02:37,000 Really hard problems, I don't know. 53 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:41,000 I'm a glutton For complexity and maybe punishment, so to speak. 54 00:02:41,300 --> 00:02:44,500 But regarding identity, I've been in the identity industry 55 00:02:44,500 --> 00:02:49,700 for about a decade and it came about because I worked for a 56 00:02:49,700 --> 00:02:54,800 company, and we were looking for a way to expand our products. 57 00:02:55,300 --> 00:03:00,000 So, after doing market research with banks, we found that they 58 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:04,400 had a pretty big problem with kyc and friction. 59 00:03:05,100 --> 00:03:09,500 And we thought we could solve that By expanding our product 60 00:03:09,500 --> 00:03:14,500 set to go into identity, so that's how I ended up leading 61 00:03:14,500 --> 00:03:18,900 and identity verification business for a number of years. 62 00:03:19,100 --> 00:03:24,000 We became a global leader in digital identity verification 63 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:29,800 and we specialized in enabling people to use their mobile phone 64 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:34,400 to capture a photo of their government-issued ID as a way to 65 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:37,600 help Banks optimize their onboarding. 66 00:03:37,700 --> 00:03:39,900 Us. So I did that for a number of 67 00:03:39,900 --> 00:03:44,800 years and learned a lot about identity and quite frankly fell 68 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:49,300 in love with the space. So I ended up leaving in order 69 00:03:49,300 --> 00:03:54,600 to seek broader experience. So I started my own consultancy 70 00:03:55,100 --> 00:03:58,800 worked again with banks and other major corporations did 71 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:01,800 Consulting with some smaller companies and really got a 72 00:04:02,300 --> 00:04:07,800 broader feel for the space. I also spent some time at a Her 73 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:11,200 in Biometrics and government platforms. 74 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:15,900 And eventually, I ended up a MasterCard where I really 75 00:04:16,500 --> 00:04:20,800 believe that we are leading, what will be the future of 76 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:24,000 digital identity, and I'm sure we'll talk a lot more about 77 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:26,300 that. Sounds to me, like, guys look 78 00:04:26,300 --> 00:04:28,900 like the Star Trek episodes, like the Enterprise, like 79 00:04:28,900 --> 00:04:32,100 boldly, going where no other identities have gone before, 80 00:04:32,100 --> 00:04:35,500 which is very cool. You gave a talk yesterday about 81 00:04:35,500 --> 00:04:37,500 the use of Fido in a reusable digital. 82 00:04:37,700 --> 00:04:41,400 Jenny Network for folks, who did not attend that or haven't yet. 83 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:43,900 Let's just say because we go to watch on replay. 84 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:46,800 Can you give us kind of a synopsis of what that that talk 85 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:48,400 was about. Yeah. 86 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:51,400 So let me start with what we're doing. 87 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:54,100 What my team is building at MasterCard. 88 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:59,200 So that is, in fact, a globally interoperable reusable digital 89 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:01,300 ID Network. And I always try to say that 90 00:05:01,300 --> 00:05:05,200 without screwing it up, cuz there's quite a lot to say and 91 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:09,300 what that means in really simple terms, Means is you can take 92 00:05:09,300 --> 00:05:13,700 your MasterCard and you can use it anywhere in the world. 93 00:05:13,700 --> 00:05:16,200 You know what's going to happen? The merchant knows what's going 94 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:19,300 to happen and the issuer bank knows what's going to happen. 95 00:05:19,300 --> 00:05:24,300 So it's a standard process, that's very easy, apply that 96 00:05:24,300 --> 00:05:29,100 same concept to Identity. So, in the future, you will own 97 00:05:29,100 --> 00:05:33,800 your own digital identity and you'll easily be able to use 98 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:37,000 that anywhere you want to do business with anyone in the 99 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:40,300 world. And what will facilitate that is 100 00:05:40,300 --> 00:05:46,500 the ID Network by MasterCard. So reusable ID that you can 101 00:05:46,500 --> 00:05:50,400 assert so you can share your identity and additional 102 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:55,000 credentials where you need to. So, yesterday, I was introducing 103 00:05:55,000 --> 00:06:00,000 that concept to the audience because it's not intuitive to a 104 00:06:00,008 --> 00:06:04,000 lot of folks that MasterCard would be in this type of 105 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:07,300 business, but it makes only as a new network. 106 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:13,400 And I was also talking about the importance of Fido with respect 107 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:18,500 to our vision. So in order to manage and share 108 00:06:18,500 --> 00:06:25,100 your reusable ID, you would use a mobile app and Fido is how we 109 00:06:25,100 --> 00:06:29,500 see individuals authenticating into that mobile app. 110 00:06:29,500 --> 00:06:35,300 It standard it's easy for the end user and it's a fishing 111 00:06:35,300 --> 00:06:38,500 resistant, very secure method. Authentication. 112 00:06:38,500 --> 00:06:42,800 So, it's something that we have built into our reusable digital 113 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:46,200 ID experience. The seems like you're laying the 114 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:49,800 groundwork for what a lot of other organizations are going to 115 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:53,300 need down the road or you know maybe not in the financial 116 00:06:53,300 --> 00:06:56,300 services industry. You Hennessy that way as well. 117 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:02,200 Yeah, in fact, my business works way outside of financial 118 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:06,000 services with respect to the use cases that were satisfying. 119 00:07:06,900 --> 00:07:11,400 So for example, example, 1 driver for reusable ID, globally 120 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:16,700 is age verification. So, you know, rightfully so the 121 00:07:16,700 --> 00:07:21,000 regulations are changing so that we have a more secure overall, 122 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:25,800 Global ecosystem when it comes to buying restricted Goods. 123 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:31,400 So, for example, in Australia, where the reusable ID network is 124 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:37,500 fully live, you can use your ID to assert your age in order. 125 00:07:37,700 --> 00:07:42,800 To buy liquor online. And what's good about this is a 126 00:07:42,900 --> 00:07:46,000 you know your kids won't be able to do that. 127 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:50,400 It's secured by your biometric. And you know as a guiding 128 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:53,800 principle, the platform is very secured and I can talk more 129 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:57,800 about that but the other benefit is that when you do share your 130 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:02,900 age, you're not sharing your full government issued ID with 131 00:08:02,900 --> 00:08:06,800 that liquor. Vendor, you are sharing a proofs 132 00:08:07,100 --> 00:08:11,100 that you are above the age required to make that purchase. 133 00:08:11,500 --> 00:08:16,300 So that's a high-frequency activity and one, we're ideally, 134 00:08:16,300 --> 00:08:20,900 you know, more data privacy is better because I'm sure we've 135 00:08:20,900 --> 00:08:25,600 all observed that too much pii. Spread around everywhere is 136 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:30,700 creating breaches and creating egregious increases in fraud. 137 00:08:30,700 --> 00:08:34,299 So, we're trying to create a platform of the future that can 138 00:08:34,299 --> 00:08:39,799 be part of the solution. Sulfur that Can we talk a bit 139 00:08:39,799 --> 00:08:41,600 about that? How that would work and sort of 140 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:43,400 the real world? Because I like this example of, 141 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:45,400 right? The age verification, right? 142 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:47,800 You went to the purchase of alcohol, which is fantastic. 143 00:08:47,900 --> 00:08:49,400 I think about if I could borrow perspective, right? 144 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:51,600 You've got the bouncer at the door and they're checking IDs 145 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:55,100 and you're sharing way more information. 146 00:08:55,100 --> 00:08:58,900 You're given your their entire ID, your name, address birthday, 147 00:08:58,900 --> 00:09:00,600 all kinds of stuff. When all they really need to 148 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:02,900 know, is that binary decision, right? 149 00:09:03,100 --> 00:09:05,300 Are you old enough to be in here? 150 00:09:05,500 --> 00:09:07,600 It's either a yes or a. No, there's really no gray area 151 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:09,900 on that. One, and thats collecting a 152 00:09:09,900 --> 00:09:12,500 bunch of a lot of different data you mentioned, having this app. 153 00:09:12,500 --> 00:09:15,000 That would sort of be like the wallet right? 154 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:16,200 Think. I guess it's kind of stores this 155 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:18,800 information. How would that particularly 156 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:20,800 work? Is that, you know, something 157 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:23,500 that like MasterCard would, it would be like a MasterCard app 158 00:09:24,100 --> 00:09:25,500 and then I don't know if you can talk about this. 159 00:09:25,500 --> 00:09:27,700 Like, how would it work with other issuers? 160 00:09:27,700 --> 00:09:31,800 For example, if there's a comparable Visa wallet or in 161 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:35,100 American Express, sort of wallet and making sure that things are 162 00:09:35,100 --> 00:09:38,700 sort of interoperable and not getting into the Chelation which 163 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:41,400 frankly has been a concern sometimes around, like some of 164 00:09:41,408 --> 00:09:45,300 the Fido folks of being locked to a specific platform, which I 165 00:09:45,300 --> 00:09:47,500 think is getting better and there are certainly plans to 166 00:09:47,500 --> 00:09:52,400 have more cross-platform, sinking kind of capabilities may 167 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:54,300 be in kind of walk us through like how you see this kind of 168 00:09:54,308 --> 00:09:56,700 working in your mind's eye? Yeah sure. 169 00:09:56,700 --> 00:09:59,500 So let me start with your example of the bouncer really 170 00:09:59,500 --> 00:10:02,500 quick and then I'll get into the interoperability just to be 171 00:10:02,500 --> 00:10:07,700 clear, a digital identity is not something that you can only use. 172 00:10:07,900 --> 00:10:12,100 Route to, you know, to another mobile app or online it's 173 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,600 designed to be true, omni-channel. 174 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:22,500 And in fact, we're enabling call in Customer Support as well as 175 00:10:22,500 --> 00:10:26,500 in-person use cases. So in the example that you just 176 00:10:26,500 --> 00:10:32,400 gave were working, for example, in Brazil with check-in, use 177 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:36,000 cases to events. So the bouncer at the bar even 178 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:39,300 though that particular use case may Not be our Focus right now. 179 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:43,600 That's completely analogous. And I believe the future should 180 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:45,800 be that you just scan that yes or no. 181 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:48,300 When you're entering age, restricted areas. 182 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:53,700 And in fact, we're facilitating age discounts and other things 183 00:10:53,700 --> 00:10:59,100 for in-person interactions such as rights on public transport to 184 00:10:59,100 --> 00:11:01,100 answer question about interoperability. 185 00:11:01,100 --> 00:11:06,400 So this is a big pillar of our vision is interoperability. 186 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:11,900 So the idea Network is designed to interoperate with other 187 00:11:11,900 --> 00:11:16,200 identity wallets, as well as other identity providers. 188 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:22,200 So as an example, if there's an oem wallet and I carefully, sort 189 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:26,100 of talk about names or anything, but we are designed to 190 00:11:26,100 --> 00:11:30,600 interoperate with an oem wallet that may be on your device and 191 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:35,500 you'll be seeing more about that in the future or perhaps there's 192 00:11:35,500 --> 00:11:41,300 a domestic or national digital identity scheme than already 193 00:11:41,300 --> 00:11:46,300 exists at scale. If that scheme wanted to enable 194 00:11:46,300 --> 00:11:50,700 their citizens with cross-border capabilities, they could also 195 00:11:50,700 --> 00:11:54,900 plug into the ID Network. So we're really focused on 196 00:11:54,900 --> 00:11:59,400 providing the network, providing the sort of framework for 197 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:03,500 interoperability, which is global and that's its own whole 198 00:12:03,500 --> 00:12:07,300 topic. And that can also you know, work 199 00:12:07,300 --> 00:12:10,300 well, Create a true Global ecosystem. 200 00:12:11,300 --> 00:12:14,400 I'm going through some words out there, but I'm assuming that 201 00:12:14,500 --> 00:12:18,100 this architecture includes blockchain and includes 202 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:21,400 verifiable credentials mentioned, find out answers, 203 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:24,800 some kind of strong authentication capabilities. 204 00:12:25,100 --> 00:12:28,600 I'm assuming that also there's maybe some gaps in the market. 205 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:33,200 That didn't fulfill your, you know, your need for your total 206 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:37,200 architecture. What was your approach to that? 207 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:39,200 Are you looking for? Did you look for like 208 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:44,000 best-of-breed Solutions and use some of those and and, you know, 209 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:47,000 integrate the rest and maybe you have to build some custom 210 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:50,500 components trying to get a vision for how did you go at? 211 00:12:50,900 --> 00:12:54,200 Go about attacking from a technical perspective, such a 212 00:12:54,208 --> 00:13:00,500 big architectural problem. So we do have a really strong 213 00:13:00,500 --> 00:13:04,700 commitment to standards. We are not blockchain based 214 00:13:05,300 --> 00:13:10,100 Clear at this point in time that might change in the future. 215 00:13:10,100 --> 00:13:13,400 I don't know, but that is not the case right now. 216 00:13:14,100 --> 00:13:18,200 Verifiable credentials have recently been ratified by the 217 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:21,400 w3c. We have embraced that and in 218 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:25,500 fact, we very much are aligned with the vision of an identity 219 00:13:25,500 --> 00:13:30,100 Wallet. Not only having proof, like kind 220 00:13:30,100 --> 00:13:33,300 of the core proof that you are who you claim to be backed by a 221 00:13:33,300 --> 00:13:36,900 government issued credential. But you might other have other 222 00:13:36,900 --> 00:13:40,800 pieces of verifiable credentials in your identity wallet. 223 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:45,800 So as an example we're working with universities in Brazil to 224 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:50,000 have a reusable ID, facilitate smoother, more efficient, more 225 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:52,600 secure University life, and there's multiple use cases 226 00:13:52,608 --> 00:13:56,600 there. We envision that also becoming a 227 00:13:56,600 --> 00:14:00,700 university credential that could then be used for student 228 00:14:00,700 --> 00:14:06,100 discounts by retailers or specific loans by Services. 229 00:14:06,500 --> 00:14:09,300 So, that is definitely the direction that we're moving in 230 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:13,100 and I think if you think about all the potential that just 231 00:14:13,100 --> 00:14:18,700 rolls into a lot of value and a lot of easier experiences for 232 00:14:18,700 --> 00:14:21,900 both the individual and the businesses. 233 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:24,800 So, you're here at the conference just like we are what 234 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:27,800 are some of the Highlight moments that have been sort of 235 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:30,300 your purview as you've been through here and your 236 00:14:30,300 --> 00:14:35,100 experience? Well first I am impressed by the 237 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:39,800 the attendants. There's a lot of very engaged 238 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:43,600 folks from you know other parts of the world that have come to 239 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:46,300 this conference. It's my first time being at the 240 00:14:46,300 --> 00:14:50,800 specific conference so that is something that has really struck 241 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:54,400 me as being you know quite impressive in terms of the 242 00:14:54,408 --> 00:14:59,700 engagement and the attendance. And I mean part of what I'm here 243 00:14:59,700 --> 00:15:04,600 to learn more about is passkey and everything that's happening 244 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:06,700 with Fido. Do I think it's really 245 00:15:06,700 --> 00:15:09,100 groundbreaking? I think it's really exciting to 246 00:15:09,100 --> 00:15:12,200 see apple Google and Microsoft Embrace that. 247 00:15:12,900 --> 00:15:16,700 So that heart has been particularly interesting to me. 248 00:15:16,900 --> 00:15:21,700 And you know, I'm sort of still thinking through what that means 249 00:15:21,700 --> 00:15:25,400 in the broader context. I think a lot of us are but I've 250 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:29,600 really been kind of impressed with the forward momentum when 251 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:35,700 it comes to embracing the cross device capabilities of Fido 252 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:37,400 dance. It's, I'll give a shout-out to 253 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:39,600 Andy handle. He's one of the content chairs 254 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:40,800 for this. So, great job, Andy. 255 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:44,300 The content is top-notch. I know, MasterCard has been 256 00:15:44,300 --> 00:15:47,000 really part of the fight Alliance for multiple years now, 257 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:51,400 I'm not sure how many, but seems to me like, it's a very future 258 00:15:52,100 --> 00:15:56,300 facing sort of adoption of this sort of growing standard, but it 259 00:15:56,300 --> 00:15:58,300 took years to get to where we're at today. 260 00:15:58,700 --> 00:16:01,400 I guess, why is that? Or I guess why was that fight 261 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:04,100 Alliance so important to mass card and what was it that 262 00:16:04,100 --> 00:16:07,100 MasterCard Sawdust? Yeah, we want to be part of this 263 00:16:07,900 --> 00:16:10,400 as a general principle MasterCards. 264 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:17,000 Very engaged in standards on a lot of fronts and identity has 265 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:20,600 been a theme of MasterCard for quite some time. 266 00:16:21,500 --> 00:16:25,800 So the business that I lead is an emerging business but it's 267 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:31,400 something that has taken time to conceptualize and plan. 268 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:36,300 But Fido in general, the Gov authentication. 269 00:16:36,300 --> 00:16:39,700 I mean that's also a venturus when it comes to payments, you 270 00:16:39,700 --> 00:16:42,500 know, what is the future when it comes to verifying? 271 00:16:42,500 --> 00:16:47,300 You are you not just in the context of reusable ID, but also 272 00:16:47,300 --> 00:16:50,700 payments. So we have you know, many 273 00:16:50,900 --> 00:16:54,600 Innovative projects at MasterCard, and we have a lot of 274 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:57,900 commitment to standards in general. 275 00:16:57,900 --> 00:17:02,500 So as another example were also committed to the open ID 276 00:17:02,500 --> 00:17:05,099 Foundation, they've had quite a large presence. 277 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:10,900 Here and I can name kind of numerous other trust over IP, I 278 00:17:10,900 --> 00:17:15,400 could kind of go on and on but we are engaged with and active 279 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:18,700 members of quite a number of Standards groups. 280 00:17:18,700 --> 00:17:23,700 You chaired a little bit of sort of like your vision for identity 281 00:17:23,700 --> 00:17:25,900 or digital identity maybe at MasterCard. 282 00:17:25,900 --> 00:17:29,400 First of all does it have a Zen in used to have a catchy name? 283 00:17:29,408 --> 00:17:31,900 Right? So we're calling passkey. 284 00:17:31,900 --> 00:17:35,300 This thing that sort of the industry is adopted so I'd Love 285 00:17:35,300 --> 00:17:39,500 to hear more about sort of like your vision of how this works 286 00:17:39,500 --> 00:17:45,000 sort of in the future, because I'm picturing The Fifth Element 287 00:17:45,100 --> 00:17:48,300 and, you know, multipass in this thing that kind of does 288 00:17:48,300 --> 00:17:52,400 everything that gives people access to things share with us, 289 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:54,700 you know, what is this this Grand Vision that you're looking 290 00:17:54,700 --> 00:17:56,200 to design. Yeah. 291 00:17:56,200 --> 00:18:01,200 So like I said it is a new network and with that comes kind 292 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:06,000 of a separation in terms of the trust Mark that in Eventual, 293 00:18:06,300 --> 00:18:09,800 well, recognized that by. So, the catchy name is very, 294 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:15,800 very simple, it's ID. So, we do have an ID Trustmark 295 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:20,500 that we've started to move forward with and market and 296 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:25,100 similar to the, you know, the MasterCard logo when an 297 00:18:25,100 --> 00:18:28,200 individual sees that, you know, whether it's on a sharing 298 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:32,500 economy, site or to sign up for a wireless device. 299 00:18:32,900 --> 00:18:36,900 They'll know that they can use their They're digital ID to 300 00:18:36,900 --> 00:18:41,300 facilitate that transaction. And the concept is very simple. 301 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:46,800 It needs to have simple user experience and very, very high 302 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:50,000 trust. So for the individual, when they 303 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:54,200 see that ID Trustmark, they should be able to scan their 304 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:58,000 biometric. See, give consent to the date of 305 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,300 their sharing and they're done. They don't need to scan a 306 00:19:01,300 --> 00:19:02,900 document. They don't need to fill out a 307 00:19:02,908 --> 00:19:06,500 form, you know. Future when they have multiple 308 00:19:06,500 --> 00:19:10,700 credentials that will just be sort of sent in that same one 309 00:19:10,700 --> 00:19:13,000 tap, give consent and you're done. 310 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:16,300 And that's part of why Fido was important and the user 311 00:19:16,300 --> 00:19:20,500 experience around using a biometric to unlock your digital 312 00:19:20,500 --> 00:19:24,500 ID, it has to be very secure and very, very easy. 313 00:19:25,500 --> 00:19:28,400 Our other commitment to Market is higher trust. 314 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:32,200 So I guess another Trend that I want to point out that were 315 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:37,000 engaged with our digital ID. These mobile driver's licenses 316 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:40,300 that are being issued by governments here in the United 317 00:19:40,300 --> 00:19:43,600 States, we have mobile driver's licenses that are still pretty 318 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:48,400 nascent, but quite a number of states are beginning to issue 319 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:52,400 them and that's something that will accelerate and it is 320 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:55,000 happening globally. For example, we're live in 321 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:58,600 Australia and we're also integrating to that type of 322 00:19:58,700 --> 00:20:02,500 ecosystem. So we're committed to also 323 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:07,200 tapping in to emerge. In digital ID, initiatives by 324 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:11,500 governments globally as part of our vision to bring higher trust 325 00:20:11,700 --> 00:20:15,600 along with easier user experience to the global market. 326 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:19,300 Yeah, I've been thinking about what are the business outcomes 327 00:20:19,300 --> 00:20:22,900 that MasterCard is looking to achieve with this pretty major 328 00:20:22,900 --> 00:20:25,700 investment, right? I got to think it's reduction in 329 00:20:25,700 --> 00:20:30,400 fraud, better user experience of onboarding things like that. 330 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:34,700 Are there other things? I mean, those are the two big 331 00:20:34,700 --> 00:20:39,300 pillars, you know, user experience equals top-line 332 00:20:39,300 --> 00:20:44,300 growth for businesses globally. When you can acquire users, 333 00:20:44,300 --> 00:20:48,600 facilitate transactions re-authenticate users. 334 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:51,700 Get rid of password resets I guess passwords are going away 335 00:20:51,700 --> 00:20:55,800 but you know, there's a lot of list to businesses for just 336 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:59,600 having an easier way to verify that somebody is in fact who 337 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:04,700 they claim to be and it can also Open up sort of a world of new 338 00:21:04,700 --> 00:21:09,200 experiences. So one example of that is we're 339 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:12,900 focused on a lot of hybrid user experiences so you start 340 00:21:12,900 --> 00:21:16,400 something online and then you finish it in person. 341 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,100 Maybe curbside pickup is a good example of that. 342 00:21:19,100 --> 00:21:23,400 There's a lot of fraud with that because the wrong person goes 343 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:26,200 and picks up the goods and then they're gone. 344 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:30,400 So you can imagine there's just a whole world of different kind 345 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:32,200 of experiences that you can create. 346 00:21:32,300 --> 00:21:35,900 Wait, if you can make that point of knowing you are, who you 347 00:21:35,900 --> 00:21:40,600 claim to be much, much easier and maybe knowing something 348 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:43,000 about them. And or, you know, they meet the 349 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:45,600 age, you can facilitate a lot of growth. 350 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:49,000 And then, like you said, reduction and fraud is the other 351 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,400 Big Value leaver. You know, synthetic identity 352 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:56,700 fraud is out of control and the us alone last year. 353 00:21:56,700 --> 00:22:01,500 It Rose significantly and the measure known amount is to the 354 00:22:01,500 --> 00:22:04,100 tune of over. Twenty billion dollars being 355 00:22:04,100 --> 00:22:06,000 sucked out of financial services. 356 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:10,200 Big problem account. Opening fraud Rose by 108 357 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:14,900 percent last year. So reducing fraud and protecting 358 00:22:14,900 --> 00:22:19,100 not only businesses but individuals who are victims of 359 00:22:19,100 --> 00:22:22,700 identity fraud and you know, I'll just point out that the 360 00:22:22,708 --> 00:22:27,000 future is identity. And payments should merge will 361 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:30,500 merge and you know, certainly that's part of the North Star 362 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:34,400 Vision as well. Do you think card issuers and 363 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:36,800 other institutions? Similar to yourself? 364 00:22:37,500 --> 00:22:41,500 Will have an easier time getting this done, because of the 365 00:22:41,500 --> 00:22:43,300 information that you already collecting is part of like an 366 00:22:43,300 --> 00:22:46,200 onboarding experience anyway, to get a MasterCard, right, 367 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,900 whatever it may be. I think that onboarding question 368 00:22:48,900 --> 00:22:51,500 is a question that a lot of organizations struggle is, how 369 00:22:51,500 --> 00:22:53,000 do we get people to use our thing? 370 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:55,400 You've already got a pretty good audience, right? 371 00:22:55,500 --> 00:22:58,700 People should be using or want to be using your product right 372 00:22:58,700 --> 00:23:00,600 for payments. And you know, things like that. 373 00:23:00,700 --> 00:23:03,800 Do you think that gives MasterCard and other similar 374 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:08,800 organizations a leg up and sort of developing this you know it's 375 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:10,700 more of like a centralized identity platform. 376 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:16,400 Well I guess one corruption I might make is it's not 377 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:20,600 centralized so we're not currently using blockchain as a 378 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:28,000 technology yet, but we do follow a decentralized architecture and 379 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:32,100 MasterCard as a company, has a huge commitment to data. 380 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:36,700 Visee and doesn't actually store really any information about any 381 00:23:36,700 --> 00:23:39,900 individual and we think that's really key to the future of 382 00:23:39,900 --> 00:23:41,700 identity. I certainly think that's very 383 00:23:41,700 --> 00:23:44,500 key. You own your data, MasterCard 384 00:23:44,500 --> 00:23:48,700 does not own your data and will not be creating any form of 385 00:23:48,700 --> 00:23:52,100 centralized repository with your data. 386 00:23:52,900 --> 00:23:56,000 The reason that we think that we are well positioned to solve, 387 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,800 this problem is more about the fact that we run another Network 388 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:03,000 at scale. So we have the Ends with the 389 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:09,200 governance, the operating roles you know in identity if a bad 390 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:12,900 identity gets passed to a business and something harmful 391 00:24:12,900 --> 00:24:16,800 happens down the road, there needs to be some, you know, 392 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:22,100 governance recourse rules for how that's handled and that is a 393 00:24:22,100 --> 00:24:24,700 key component of what we bring to the table. 394 00:24:24,700 --> 00:24:29,600 So if you look at self Sovereign identity, which is sort of a 395 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:35,600 related, Area that we certainly Embrace many of the principles 396 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:40,700 of in the industry. There's the concept of turning 397 00:24:40,700 --> 00:24:45,700 the triangle into a diamond because the governance part is 398 00:24:45,700 --> 00:24:48,800 actually important for it to get Traction in the commercial 399 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:52,100 market. So using that Paradigm you can 400 00:24:52,100 --> 00:24:55,200 kind of think of MasterCard in our experience running a network 401 00:24:55,200 --> 00:25:00,200 at scale as bringing that and that's what I mean by us being 402 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:05,000 committed to To really focusing on the network aspect of it. 403 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,400 I'm glad you're able to clarify that because that was a, I want 404 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,500 to make sure that point was very clear that the ownership of the 405 00:25:11,500 --> 00:25:15,200 data is not in one person's hands or one company's hands. 406 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,600 But I'm glad you were able to help me clarify that my head so 407 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:20,600 thank you. Yeah, take a revolutionary 408 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:22,100 topic. The, I mean the way you're 409 00:25:22,100 --> 00:25:25,400 talking about it is like we've been hearing that from vendors 410 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,500 in the space for years, but here's an actual practitioner 411 00:25:28,700 --> 00:25:32,500 who works for coming to says this, your data is not My 412 00:25:32,500 --> 00:25:35,900 company's data, we don't own your data, you own your data 413 00:25:36,100 --> 00:25:38,600 that's revolutionary to me. Yeah. 414 00:25:38,700 --> 00:25:40,300 I think it's revolutionary as well. 415 00:25:40,300 --> 00:25:42,300 And that's why honesty in business. 416 00:25:42,300 --> 00:25:47,600 Come on. Yeah, but, you know, along those 417 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,700 lines just like interesting was, you were giving your origin 418 00:25:50,700 --> 00:25:52,900 story. How you got into I am, you're 419 00:25:52,900 --> 00:25:57,800 talking about several things that were you know what, I would 420 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:00,300 call a traditional, I am track some of the stuff that you 421 00:26:00,300 --> 00:26:04,400 mentioned like kyc. That's the hot topic for a lot 422 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,500 of folks and where they are in the career and solving those 423 00:26:07,700 --> 00:26:10,300 issues. Now so that was, you know, kind 424 00:26:10,300 --> 00:26:12,700 of part of your tracked, the question I'm going to hit you 425 00:26:12,700 --> 00:26:16,100 with is one that we did special episode on and we talked to a 426 00:26:16,108 --> 00:26:19,400 lot of practitioners or people have been in this industry for a 427 00:26:19,408 --> 00:26:22,300 long time. We all associate ourselves with 428 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,900 identity and access management and now we've got this term 429 00:26:25,900 --> 00:26:28,800 digital identity. So the question I'm going to ask 430 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:32,900 you is what's the difference between digital Unity and 431 00:26:32,900 --> 00:26:35,700 identity, and access management and there's no right or wrong 432 00:26:35,700 --> 00:26:37,900 answer you have there's no right or wrong answer and it's not an 433 00:26:37,900 --> 00:26:42,500 easy one. Yeah, I mean, I think to me, I 434 00:26:42,500 --> 00:26:46,900 do think the word digital identity is overused in the 435 00:26:46,900 --> 00:26:53,400 market, so the way that I see the future and really today is a 436 00:26:53,408 --> 00:26:58,300 digital identity is an individual's identity and 437 00:26:58,700 --> 00:27:02,000 honestly, I think it should be defined as an identity. 438 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:06,900 That that individual owns and everything else kind of falls 439 00:27:06,900 --> 00:27:11,100 into the identity verification identity and access management, 440 00:27:11,100 --> 00:27:14,300 you know, identity proofing. There's a lot of terms and lingo 441 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:16,800 that have been used for many years around that. 442 00:27:17,700 --> 00:27:22,000 So that's the way that I would like to see the market describe 443 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,900 these things, which I know is maybe not the way, you know, 444 00:27:25,900 --> 00:27:30,100 most people would Define it. It's interesting. 445 00:27:30,100 --> 00:27:32,000 I think everybody defines a little bit. 446 00:27:32,100 --> 00:27:34,600 Early. But I'd like that definition 447 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:39,000 because it aligns very much with everything you said today. 448 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,600 Right? Is that, that Vision around 449 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:46,200 ownership of the identity and your title being senior vice 450 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:47,900 president of digital identity, right? 451 00:27:47,900 --> 00:27:51,400 It's not like an accident occurred, right? 452 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,400 Yeah, exactly. It does interesting that we've 453 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:58,100 asked that question, I think kind of officially now like 10 454 00:27:58,100 --> 00:28:02,800 12 times maybe and there's been 10 to 12 different, There's like 455 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:07,300 it's it's fascinating that based on the person who's answering 456 00:28:07,300 --> 00:28:10,900 and their context that they're, you know, heading into the, I am 457 00:28:10,900 --> 00:28:13,700 space. It really shapes how they answer 458 00:28:13,700 --> 00:28:15,100 that question. So I think it's I think it's 459 00:28:15,100 --> 00:28:17,000 very interesting. I know you've got a flight to 460 00:28:17,008 --> 00:28:19,400 catch so we're going to help get you out of here on time and make 461 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:21,600 sure you get home. But we want to end things on a 462 00:28:21,608 --> 00:28:25,800 lighter note and we were kind of talking about before we hit the 463 00:28:25,808 --> 00:28:28,400 record button here about some of the things you work on outside 464 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,200 of identity. One of them was snowboarding and 465 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:34,300 I'm just curious Yes, you know what is Your Bucket List? 466 00:28:34,300 --> 00:28:40,200 Snowboarding trip. So, yes, I am a snowboarder and 467 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:44,000 I probably go down stuff that's, you know maybe not too smart for 468 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,200 me to be going down, but I love it. 469 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:50,000 I love the thrill and I just, you know, love black diamonds 470 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:54,200 but I have actually never been snowboarding outside of the 471 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:58,500 United States. So whether it's South America or 472 00:28:58,500 --> 00:29:03,200 the Alps, that's my bucket list. It's It's hard to kind of make 473 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,900 the time for that kind of a trip but I'm gonna do it before. 474 00:29:06,900 --> 00:29:08,800 I stopped going down black diamonds. 475 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:13,600 So I've never been skiing or snowboarding how do I get 476 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:15,600 started? Like what is the pro tip that 477 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,800 you can give me for me to get off my butt and try it? 478 00:29:19,900 --> 00:29:24,400 Well, I would go with snowboarding and take a lesson. 479 00:29:25,500 --> 00:29:27,100 That's it. I mean, take a lesson. 480 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:31,800 It's always best to have somebody give you the right form 481 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:39,400 instead of creating bad habits and hurting yourself, my tip is 482 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:41,500 to wear those. You know, make sure you have 483 00:29:41,500 --> 00:29:45,300 this skiing pants because of you end up on your butt a lot. 484 00:29:45,300 --> 00:29:48,400 You don't want to be in jeans and, you know, long underwear or 485 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:50,500 something and have a wet butt all day. 486 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:55,100 Yes, it's not a good thing thumbs down. 487 00:29:55,300 --> 00:29:57,400 Let bots on the identity of the sender podcast. 488 00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,700 So, yeah. All right, we're going to go 489 00:29:59,700 --> 00:30:03,500 ahead and leave it there for now as someone decided to open the 490 00:30:03,500 --> 00:30:04,500 door. Thank you very much alive 491 00:30:04,500 --> 00:30:08,800 conference, any final takeaways Sarah as we kind of what you got 492 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:12,000 on your flight here. Oh boy. 493 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,700 That's that's a good one. I guess, check us out. 494 00:30:17,100 --> 00:30:18,800 And when we go to get more information on this, this is 495 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:20,600 something that's publicly available that we can like, 496 00:30:21,100 --> 00:30:23,900 actually, you can go to ID service.com. 497 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:30,200 Or you can find me on LinkedIn and shoot me a message and, you 498 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:34,100 know, I'd love to learn more about, you know, Partners, 499 00:30:34,100 --> 00:30:37,500 customers what people are thinking, you know, it's a big 500 00:30:37,500 --> 00:30:42,600 Vision, a lot of moving parts and it's always good to connect 501 00:30:42,700 --> 00:30:45,500 with others in the industry. Yeah, that's how I found you. 502 00:30:45,500 --> 00:30:49,900 I just hear you up on LinkedIn and started following her. 503 00:30:49,900 --> 00:30:54,000 We are connected and the slaughter yourself so dangling 504 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:58,300 could to follow So I include in our show notes, a link to your 505 00:30:58,300 --> 00:31:01,100 LinkedIn, and then also to ID service dot-coms, that way 506 00:31:01,100 --> 00:31:04,400 people can easily reference it. Thank you so much for being part 507 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,700 of this very much appreciative that you're able to set aside. 508 00:31:07,700 --> 00:31:10,200 The time for us, we're going to go to leave it there for this 509 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:15,800 week, any, if you have an ongoing for this now, but if you 510 00:31:15,808 --> 00:31:18,900 want to find us on the web, we're at age, 84 center.com, and 511 00:31:18,900 --> 00:31:21,100 we're on Twitter at, idac podcast. 512 00:31:21,100 --> 00:31:23,100 And with that, we'll talk with everyone in the next one. 513 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:27,900 Thanks. Thanks for listening to the 514 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,300 podcast. If you don't forget to 515 00:31:31,300 --> 00:31:31,900 subscribe.