1 00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:11,200 This is identity at the center. Welcome to the Identity of the 2 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:12,880 Center podcast. I'm Jeff, and that's Jim. 3 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:14,800 Hey, Jim. Hey, Jeff, how are you? 4 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:17,360 Oh, not so bad yourself. Good. 5 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:21,680 Hey, I've been reading the recently released Leadership 6 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:25,400 Compass from Cooper and Cole on identity fabrics. 7 00:00:26,080 --> 00:00:30,000 It's, you know, as most analysts reports, there's a lot there. 8 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:34,160 You're a real nerd, man. Well, that has nothing to do 9 00:00:34,160 --> 00:00:36,960 with this, but yes, it's also true. 10 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:41,760 But that's totally unrelated. But yeah, I've been reading this 11 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:46,200 thing and you know, it's kind of like I'm still trying to wrap my 12 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:50,720 brain around identity fabrics a little bit to think that there's 13 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:55,480 a leadership compass that lists vendors and kind of says, OK, 14 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:59,080 these are the vendors that do identity fabrics the best. 15 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:03,200 Because I I always kind of think of identity fabric as kind of 16 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:10,760 product to agnostic or vendor agnostic vendor non specific. 17 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:15,120 It's kind of like saying there's a leadership compass for zero 18 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:17,800 trust. I mean, zero trust is kind of a 19 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:23,600 concept that a product can kind of emulate, but there's not a 20 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:26,400 product to go in do zero trust with, right? 21 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:29,440 Yeah. But this, this is our desire as 22 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:30,800 human nature to rank things, right? 23 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:32,080 We have to have a list for everything. 24 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:34,840 So, you know, Identifrabic is just one of those things that we 25 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:36,680 rank. And I still think it's a, it's a 26 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:40,280 concept constantly under definition and maybe 27 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:41,840 redefinition as we're kind of figuring it out. 28 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:45,480 I had a really fun conversation with Eric, my friend Eric from 29 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:47,640 Gartner, actually. So this was at, I think it, 30 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:48,920 where was at Ideniverse, I think. 31 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:51,320 And he was kind of explained some things to me and I was 32 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:53,160 like, OK, I can kind of understand how that goes. 33 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:56,040 So yeah, I it's, it's an interesting space for sure. 34 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:59,600 But I love the fact that we have like, you know, rankings to help 35 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:01,800 me understand, OK, where do things fit together? 36 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:04,160 Because there's just, there's just too many products, man. 37 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:05,200 I can't keep up with all of them. 38 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:09,720 Yeah, but I, you know, I really got big on the identity fabric 39 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:13,680 concept to EIC last year. I'm hoping that, you know, and 40 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:17,760 obviously Kufringer Cole is the the firm that puts on that 41 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:19,400 conference. So the ones who released the 42 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:22,600 leadership compo. So they are kind of driving this 43 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:25,600 concept. I want to keep learning more 44 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:27,520 about it. The reason I brought it up was 45 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:30,240 mostly just to mention everybody, if you want to get a 46 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:33,800 copy of this thing, here's the freeway to do it, which is, you 47 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:36,480 know, go out to I'm not, I'm not, this is not a product 48 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:38,520 pitch, but go out to Cyberx website. 49 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:41,600 They've got it there. It's a free download. 50 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:44,800 Yeah, you got to give a little bit of information, but you can 51 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:47,840 go ahead and get a copy of that report and read it for yourself. 52 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:50,520 Exchange your e-mail for information. 53 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:51,920 That's pretty much how that works. 54 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:54,840 It's true they got to get a little something. 55 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:58,040 I'm sure they paid Cooper Cole to have it on their website. 56 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:03,280 But anyway, as a listeners, like I'm all about, you know, telling 57 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:06,080 people how to get some free stuff without breaking the law. 58 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:09,080 Yeah, without breaking a law. That's the, that's the key part 59 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:10,640 here. You know, don't, don't and don't 60 00:03:10,640 --> 00:03:12,280 turn to us for legal advice. We're not lawyers. 61 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:14,000 We're just a bunch of identity nerds on this show. 62 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:17,520 Yeah, exactly. So anyway, hopefully you can go 63 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:19,480 out and check that out. Yeah. 64 00:03:19,640 --> 00:03:23,360 So other things people can check out are smorgasbord of 65 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:26,320 conferences that we have coming up and other things that you and 66 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:29,360 I and some combination of one or both of us will be there. 67 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:32,040 We've got things like the official cybersecurity summit 68 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:34,520 in, let's see that is in Chicago and Philly. 69 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:36,600 I'm trying to think when this, when this episode comes out, 70 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:37,720 hopefully those will still be there. 71 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:43,040 The authenticate conference with Fido, yes, Fido feud Round 2 is 72 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:46,360 coming back. Jim is going to try to topple 73 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:48,600 Megan from her championship post. 74 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:51,960 It's a, it's a definite thing. I mean, let me just say it here. 75 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:54,680 This is the first time I've gotten braggadocious. 76 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:58,880 But First off, we kind of got cheated a little bit last year. 77 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:03,440 I mean, the, the, the ranking system, the point system, there 78 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:06,560 were some problems this year. We're going to win. 79 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:09,720 My team is going to win. The gauntlet has been thrown 80 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:11,320 down. I'm sure we'll see more stuff on 81 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:13,840 social media that we've been kind of planning out to kind of 82 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:15,640 tease that up to it. But that was exciting time. 83 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:17,519 So looking forward to that. Let's see. 84 00:04:17,519 --> 00:04:20,160 That's in October. And then we've also got Infosec 85 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:22,360 World 2025, that's also in October. 86 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:24,400 So first time that you and I have been at that conference, 87 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:26,440 more of a general cybersecurity conference. 88 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:28,480 So we'll be there with our friends from RSM and some 89 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:30,720 others. Identities at the center of 90 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:33,200 cybersecurity, though, So what the heck. 91 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:36,120 Yep. That a name 6 plus years that is 92 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:39,840 still relevant today. Let's see then we got Ideniverse 93 00:04:39,840 --> 00:04:43,320 in November in Washington DC and then we've got the Gartner 94 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:46,520 conference at the end of the year in Grapevine, TX with yet 95 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:48,600 another game show plan for that one different than what we've 96 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:50,600 done before. So lots of. 97 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:52,200 Stuff. Talk to a few other folks that 98 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:56,480 are putting on, like putting on conferences of one sort or 99 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:58,560 another. Go into the website. 100 00:04:58,560 --> 00:04:59,880 That's definitely the place to go. 101 00:04:59,880 --> 00:05:03,400 I mean, we get them up there as soon as possible, sometimes only 102 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:05,160 a couple weeks before the conference date. 103 00:05:05,840 --> 00:05:09,360 Yeah, I have like 6, I think maybe 7 different discount codes 104 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:11,000 all at the same time. And rather than read them off 105 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:13,160 and nobody's going to write them down anyway as I'm talking here, 106 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:15,920 just go to our website, idacpodcast.com. 107 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:18,280 Scroll down just a little bit and you'll see everything we've 108 00:05:18,280 --> 00:05:20,840 got active there with, you know, more kind of constantly being 109 00:05:20,840 --> 00:05:23,880 added as we as we firm up some of those partnerships with those 110 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:25,560 conferences. But that's the way you can show 111 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:27,640 support for the show. Use our conference stuff, you 112 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:30,040 know, doesn't cost you anything. We don't get anything out of it 113 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:32,360 other than just a week show. We can bring a crowd. 114 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:34,920 And you know, hopefully, you know, that helps get us great 115 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:38,760 guests like we have today with Mr. Dan Rolls, who I am shocked 116 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:42,640 to say has been five years since he's been on this show way back 117 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:46,200 in July of 2020. And, you know, I introduced him 118 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:47,680 a long time ago as an identity dude. 119 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:50,560 He was here, you know, one of the OG guests that we've ever 120 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:53,040 had on the show. So let me go ahead and introduce 121 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:56,560 Mr. Darren Rolls, You know, identity dude at large, maybe 122 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:58,520 independent identity dude, something like that. 123 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:00,040 There you go, something like that. 124 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:04,440 Still here, still here, still doing it so. 125 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:07,520 We've got a couple things we've, you know, we've kind of UPS, UPS 126 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:09,040 the game a little bit around here. 127 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:11,920 You were here before a couple of our traditions. 128 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:16,040 One of our first traditions that we kind of started was how did 129 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:18,400 people get into identity? And so you were with us with 130 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:22,240 Episode 53 and that was probably, you know, way, way, 131 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:23,600 way before we even started out of question. 132 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:25,280 And that's something now we ask all of our guests. 133 00:06:25,280 --> 00:06:27,760 Now, since we didn't get a chance to ask you that last 134 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:30,440 time, I'm going to ask you for the first time on your second 135 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:32,840 appearance. How did you get into identity 136 00:06:32,840 --> 00:06:34,960 and access management? Is it something that you chose 137 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:40,600 or did it choose you? It definitely chose me way, way, 138 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:44,720 way back in the early 90s before I came to the US actually I was 139 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:50,160 working on CORBA distributed frameworks and for about banking 140 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:54,520 in in the UK and we were using CORBA framework to do 141 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:59,120 distributed user and schema management for CI Sam databases. 142 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:02,240 And so we were basically packaging up schema and user 143 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:06,360 changes and then pushing them out to multiple endpoints in in 144 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:11,960 front end trading ecosystem and Tivoli systems at that time saw 145 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:15,520 what we were doing, we were actually using the Tivoli M dis 146 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:17,800 distribution framework. We're doing that and they were 147 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:19,520 like they were trying to, you know, we're building out 148 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:22,760 assisted management framework and they wanted to do user and 149 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:26,560 schema management. And so they basically acquired 150 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:27,960 the group that I was working with. 151 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:31,560 And of course it wasn't called, it wasn't called any management 152 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,360 then it wasn't really even called user management. 153 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:37,720 But that was the the technology in the framework that became the 154 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:39,800 first user management framework within. 155 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:42,720 And that's what shipped me to the US. 156 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:47,040 So I didn't know what I was working on at the time, but I 157 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:49,680 was, you know, I was kind of geeking out on, I was an Oracle 158 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:54,640 database administrator and, you know, C programmer and geeking 159 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:57,480 out on, on corporate frameworks and distribution at the early 160 00:07:57,480 --> 00:07:59,080 times. That's what dragged me into it 161 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:02,480 really. But but yeah, so Gee, that was 162 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:05,040 many years ago, nearly 30 years ago. 163 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:09,600 And I've pretty much stayed with that ever since. 164 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:13,960 We, we were actively as the user administration framework in 165 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:17,120 Tivoli and and then less typically with a small gang of 166 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:20,360 folks and went to wave set technologies, which was very 167 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:23,280 early in that cycle that was becoming identity management. 168 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:26,960 It was provisioning at the time and we were acquired by Sun 169 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:30,160 Microsystems in 2004. And so that became the Sun 170 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:33,240 identity manager. And so throughout that whole 171 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:36,880 cycle, obviously I'm, I'm moving through from being fundamentally 172 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:39,120 just the, you know, programming engineer through to being 173 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:41,799 director of technology and through to CTO. 174 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:46,760 And then we left Waveset and created sale point technologies 175 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:48,560 at the time where I stayed for 12 years. 176 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:51,840 And of course, it's absolutely, I don't imagine at that point, 177 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:54,480 and I think, you know, we would some of the first people to 178 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:57,760 actually write governance down as a, you know, IGA, if you 179 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:02,120 like, as it was phrased. And so I can say I've been in it 180 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:06,360 for my entire career. That's a long, I mean, that's. 181 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:08,720 Such a long time, decades, right? 182 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:13,440 So what is the most significant development that you've seen in 183 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:16,200 your career in Identity? Is there something you can point 184 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:19,560 back and say it's like, I don't know, like SAML was a thing or 185 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:22,800 you know, the invention of XY or Z or whatever that is? 186 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:25,000 Like, what's the something that's like what really changed 187 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:29,400 the game? I think standards obviously a 188 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:31,920 big part of that and I sort of came into it with that first 189 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:36,120 Samuel Wando specification, worked on that TC and then I, I 190 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:39,840 was the editor of the SPML specification, the first service 191 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:42,440 provisioning markup language spec itself. 192 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:44,120 So I think standards were a big piece of it. 193 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:47,280 It was evident at that point that standardization was going 194 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:49,800 to have to happen because there was an industry building around 195 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:52,800 it. I think maybe the largest thing 196 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:56,200 I would say that's happened in and around us is, is the fact 197 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:58,640 that it stayed the same. Well, this seems like a strange 198 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:00,040 thing to say. You know, it's like everything's 199 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:01,600 changed, but everything's remained the same. 200 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:05,880 I can honestly look back and say the things, the, the, the tenets 201 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:07,480 of what we were trying to do back then. 202 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:10,280 And I had this thing, the 10 tenets of identity day. 203 00:10:10,560 --> 00:10:14,640 It's completely relevant and almost the same now. 204 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:17,960 So maybe the thing, the biggest thing that's happened is it's 205 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:21,720 remained consistent in what it's trying to achieve and what it 206 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:23,600 is. And I know that IGA has 207 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:27,880 certainly had a bit of a tough rapping in news and media of 208 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:30,600 late, but I think the principles that it stands for us still, 209 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:33,000 still hold water. So I think identity in the 210 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:37,040 centre is is maybe something to have captured early like you 211 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:38,480 did, because it's still very true. 212 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:42,160 So is that consistency good or bad? 213 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:46,400 Because consistency is I can, I can interpret that a couple 214 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:47,320 ways, right? It's OK. 215 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:48,440 Yeah, we're still doing the same thing. 216 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:50,480 It's great. But same time are we evolving 217 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:52,560 the the way we need to from an identity perspective. 218 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:56,200 I, I think we are, I mean, the underlying technology is 219 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:59,840 continually moving and that's, I think the underlying principles, 220 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:05,400 tenants and laws, if you like the, you know, you know, if, if 221 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:07,680 Kim Cameron was still with us, I'm sure there would be more 222 00:11:07,680 --> 00:11:10,720 laws developing right now to, to sit on top of the ones that we 223 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:14,560 have. But I think that the it's good 224 00:11:14,560 --> 00:11:17,160 in one respect because it says that the principles that we're 225 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:20,160 trying to achieve of knowing, you know, knowing who has access 226 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:23,440 concretely understanding entitlement independent of the 227 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:25,880 system that it's in or the technology stack that it sits 228 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:27,600 on. I think those things are still 229 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:29,680 relevant. And that has to, if you like, a 230 00:11:29,680 --> 00:11:33,400 solid set of intent that has to sit on top of an ever changing 231 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:36,320 set of underlying technology because it has changed, right? 232 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:39,640 I mean, look what we can now do with AII mean it is phenomenal 233 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:44,760 and it is changing what we do. So it's good and bad. 234 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:47,800 I think, you know, we just got to keep, we just got to keep 235 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:49,920 reinventing ourselves to some degree. 236 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:53,480 Hey, Darren, first I want to just start by just thanking you 237 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:58,520 for coming on the show, but even more grateful for coming on the 238 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:02,920 show back in 2020 when really nobody was listening and we're 239 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:06,640 like, Oh my gosh, Darren rolled. I said the same thing with Eve 240 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:10,720 mailers, like you guys were willing to give us a shot when 241 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:13,520 nobody was listening. Obviously now people are 242 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:18,480 listening, so all the better. But really do appreciate you 243 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:21,920 giving your time to us, but also to the community. 244 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:25,320 And the first question I wanted to ask you is kind of related to 245 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:31,360 that, which is around who are the people in the industry that 246 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:35,080 really have an impact on you that you look up to? 247 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:38,000 They're your identity heroes. So you're probably the identity 248 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:42,440 hero for some people, maybe one in the past and a couple of 249 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:46,280 people one or two for that are current people in the industry 250 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:52,080 or, you know, still local. Yeah, I think, you know, there 251 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:57,520 are so many in some respects, you know, I've having seen this 252 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:00,600 space sort of evolve through the standard side first if we look 253 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:01,320 there. I agree. 254 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:04,800 I mean, I've always loved the, you know, she's such a such a 255 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:09,680 thoughtful, hard working, considered person and had the 256 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:14,120 bravery to get out there on some of the initiatives where she's 257 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:16,760 kind of stood alone for a long period of time. 258 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:20,280 And that takes that takes stamina and determination and 259 00:13:20,560 --> 00:13:23,960 things. So, you know, I think even Ian 260 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:27,520 Glaser, Ian's always, you know, worked with Ian many, many 261 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:30,160 years. And Larry Robinson at the time 262 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:33,160 when they were both prior to Gardner, when they were at 263 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:36,920 Burton Group, they were the first really, I remember a 264 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:39,320 little, little stack of us at Waste at sitting at the back of 265 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:41,640 the room. When they mentioned their name. 266 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:43,760 It was like they mentioned their name. 267 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:47,040 It was this like kind of thing because they were really at the 268 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:50,760 forefront of looking at what we were trying to do and others 269 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:53,280 were trying to do and pull it out and make it relevant to the 270 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:56,640 customer. So you know, people like that 271 00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:59,560 are they're eloquent, understand the technology, but understand 272 00:13:59,560 --> 00:14:03,920 the market forces. I'd say coming back to some of 273 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:09,640 my brethren Wakeset activity, Sell Point or wakeset and Sell 274 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:13,680 Point, both Mark McClain and and Kevin Cunningham, who were our 275 00:14:13,680 --> 00:14:19,880 founder and president at Sale Point had a huge impact on my 276 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:21,720 life. I mean, I worked for Kevin for 277 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:24,640 25 years. In fact, when I came over to the 278 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:26,720 US, he was my hiring manager at Italy. 279 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:34,400 And so that view of product to market I think trained A 280 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:37,240 discipline within myself and many people within the 281 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:40,760 organization that I think was directly accounted for the 282 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:43,680 successor of Sale Point. So I think that, you know, I'm 283 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:45,960 pretty much all of the team, very fortunate there to have 284 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:49,320 just worked with really good people, good people, smart money 285 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:52,680 make success, right? Those folks that you just 286 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:55,960 mentioned and what you guys did at sell point and obviously sell 287 00:14:55,960 --> 00:15:00,240 points to incumbent now, but it wasn't always that way. 288 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:04,520 There's a time where the sale point was the upstart banging 289 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:08,400 the pots and pans. And you know what I mean by that 290 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:12,080 is like making noise, like upsetting the apple cart. 291 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:17,280 And now, you know, now South Point, the incumbent, right, 292 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:19,920 that that vision kind of took hold. 293 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:24,160 Yeah, very much so. I remember us fighting for 294 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:27,640 recognition. It was a number of us Access 360 295 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:29,440 and a bunch of other little companies around here at the 296 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:30,840 time. And really we're bashing against 297 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:34,360 the, against IBM and against Oracle as as many were. 298 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:38,280 And, and I think many of the, the new upstarts now feel like, 299 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:41,480 and, and I'm, I do a bunch of advisory work with, with a, with 300 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:44,440 a, a lot of those guys and it's, it's so interesting to watch. 301 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:45,880 It's like, I think it's all reversed. 302 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:48,680 You know, it's like I'm now advising them about what we used 303 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:52,360 to do, about how, you know, you, you, you better win Better 304 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:55,360 Together is the way that you compete with an incumbent. 305 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:58,040 And it sounds like strange you, you augment their 306 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:00,840 infrastructure, you know, now, now we're going to beat them. 307 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:03,680 You add to their value. You know, the best thing you do 308 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:06,480 in the company is have them resell you, you know, so find a 309 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:09,560 value proposition with it, which is added to it and then slowly 310 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:11,560 move sideways until you eat their lunch. 311 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,120 You know, and that's kind of what we did with Oracle at the 312 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:17,480 time. And and I see others, you know, 313 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:20,200 attempting to do that now with, you know, with cell point and 314 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:22,400 Noctur and and cyber Ark and others. 315 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:26,120 So really interesting cycle. Just just seeing it almost third 316 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:28,640 generation. Have you thought about it from 317 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:31,880 the other side, where if you're the in the incumbent position, 318 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:37,240 what do you have to do to bend off the upstarts? 319 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:40,520 You want to eat your lunch? Yeah, it is. 320 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:43,520 And I'm fascinated by this. And I'm sure there's a book to 321 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:47,200 be written about this curve, this perpetual curve that goes 322 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:49,680 on. I think as an incumbent, it 323 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:54,200 becomes very hard to remain the innovator because it's all about 324 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:55,960 market acceptance. You're coming down the other 325 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:59,200 side of the of the bell curve and and you're pushing our 326 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:00,960 product as fast as you possibly can. 327 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:05,599 Your challenges are, are more about market fulfilment than 328 00:17:05,599 --> 00:17:08,800 they are market innovation. The market doesn't look to you 329 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:11,079 to be an innovator and so you tend not to. 330 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:15,079 And so it's very challenging to remain innovative, particularly, 331 00:17:15,079 --> 00:17:17,680 you know, if you're a large company, things move slower, you 332 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:20,560 have you're publicly traded, you, you have all kinds of 333 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:23,319 additional pressure on you to do so. 334 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:27,359 So I think it's a very special type of company that that still 335 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:29,560 pushes the envelope, still innovates. 336 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:34,040 And and to be honest with you, I mean, I think all innovation is 337 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:36,880 plagiarism to some degree. I mean, what do the best of us 338 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:40,040 do is go, Jim, that's a great idea. 339 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:42,720 Did you hear what Jim just said? Let's go do that. 340 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:44,280 And then you'll get around. You're right on the right board. 341 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:46,560 And then the crazy people go invent it and they go build it 342 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:48,400 or anyone else's needed fought with it. 343 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:51,520 And that's pure plagiarism. So, you know, I think it's just 344 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:53,440 how it worked. Yeah, right. 345 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:57,920 And sometimes ideas take a while to I was having a conversation 346 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:00,040 with somebody at the other day and they talked about 347 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:03,840 authorization companies. They, they're early. 348 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:05,880 And actually, I think it might have been you. 349 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:09,280 The early authorization companies had the great, the 350 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:13,200 great ideas that are more relevant now than ever, but they 351 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:18,040 had them 20 years too soon. Yeah, I mean, literally 20 years 352 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:20,240 and that's kind of scary. You know, all this grey. 353 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:23,120 I think it comes from something, you know, it's like, yeah, 354 00:18:23,120 --> 00:18:25,040 exactly that. I mean, I've always been a big 355 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:28,080 fan of externalized authorization because as a as a 356 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:31,320 governance thinker, I think that the authorization model is the 357 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:34,400 authorization is so much more interested in authentication. 358 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:36,960 The, you know, that binary decision, I think we talked 359 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:39,120 about, there's the binary decision is sort of, you know, 360 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:42,480 less interesting than authorization and externalizing. 361 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,840 That is surely the way to go. But who wanted to rewrite the 362 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:48,040 app? Who wanted to restart? 363 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:49,240 And you, you know that, who did it? 364 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:51,320 You know, Boeing did it, Disney did it. 365 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:55,240 You know, axiomatics were, were literally 15 years ahead of 366 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:58,080 their time. The time is now, right? 367 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:02,120 I mean, every dog has its day. And, and I now I'm a big fan of 368 00:19:02,120 --> 00:19:05,440 externalising the youth model and sitting on top of the data 369 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:07,360 graph. And there's, you know, some 370 00:19:07,360 --> 00:19:10,040 vendors that we know that are doing very well in, in bringing 371 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:14,360 that architecture to market. Jeff and I have the pleasure of 372 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:17,440 sitting around and talking to folks like you, and you do too. 373 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:21,120 Are you talking to other bright people in the space we're 374 00:19:21,120 --> 00:19:23,760 talking about? What's the next generation of I 375 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:28,880 am Hold and we've talked to guests in the past, like I wish 376 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:32,160 I could remember he said this, but there's the IM or the 377 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:36,080 information security poverty line and there's companies that 378 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:40,840 live below the the poverty line. I mean, I see it sometimes with 379 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:44,680 organizations where they've just under invested in identity for 380 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:48,560 so long and they they're still pushing spreadsheets and and 381 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:52,640 things like that. Where what is the state of 382 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:54,760 identity? What's the state of the Union 383 00:19:55,120 --> 00:19:58,240 are, you know, the I think sometimes the problem is 384 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:00,800 sometimes companies think we're doing all right. 385 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,320 We're pushing paper and things, but we're doing right. 386 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:04,840 We're emailing spreadsheets around. 387 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:08,880 But it's not that bad. It it does seem to me like it is 388 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:12,120 that bad, but I'm wondering what your thoughts are. 389 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:17,760 Well, I think it's there's that phrase the desert of the real, 390 00:20:18,360 --> 00:20:19,560 right? You know, it's sort of, you 391 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:24,120 know, the, yeah, well, you're out there in the rear, right. 392 00:20:24,120 --> 00:20:27,440 You know, the, the, the real world is just much harder than 393 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:31,360 we as Avengers and I, you know, we as ex vendors, as I'm no 394 00:20:31,360 --> 00:20:33,440 longer a vendor, still think that way. 395 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:38,800 Obviously come to realise. And I think being real life CISO 396 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:42,640 for the last four years of my tenure at Sail point was a real 397 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:45,120 life. I had enough feeling it being it 398 00:20:45,120 --> 00:20:47,520 and being a security guy in a security company is a pretty 399 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,560 tough place to be. I mean, it's a job I would never 400 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,040 have again because it's just just too hard. 401 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:55,800 But I think to answer your question is that the desert of 402 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:58,400 the real is just so much harder than we think it is. 403 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:01,480 So when you come out then look, look around, you're sort of like 404 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:05,480 you're still doing that. Surely not, You know, pushing. 405 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:08,480 I think Ian Glaser once had that phrase. 406 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:11,960 He said the most comprehensive technical element in identity 407 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:15,480 today is the is the comma. You know, it's the CSV, you 408 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:18,640 know, like this holy comma, yet this holy comma presentation, 409 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:21,760 which I thought was great. But yeah, that's the reality of 410 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:26,480 the world, that most people, and this is one of these fundamental 411 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,640 underlying tenets of truth, is that legacy just doesn't go 412 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:31,360 away. It's still there. 413 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:35,400 And so most people are still trying to chase down things that 414 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:40,160 we said 15 years ago, right? I mean, and it's easy as a 415 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:43,240 vendor to kind of assume that everybody's moved, right, and 416 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:46,800 they're over here. No, you know, I think it was my 417 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:50,280 friend and said mentor Kevin Cunningham said when you're sick 418 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:52,680 of saying it, everybody else is just hearing it. 419 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:55,440 And that's so true. And I think when you're sick of 420 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:59,040 deploying it, everybody else is just deploying it to some 421 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:01,280 degree. You know, it's the, the, the 422 00:22:01,360 --> 00:22:05,120 long tail is, is significant. I, I think the state of the 423 00:22:05,120 --> 00:22:08,800 union out there is still pretty bleak in lots of environments. 424 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:14,480 I think we've, we've continue to over focus on what I would refer 425 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:18,640 to as the known known, you know, the things that the compliance 426 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:24,080 team said would they would fund. Here's the 32 apps we want them 427 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,800 soup to nuts under 32 go. And you know, and some people 428 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:31,720 five years in are still doing it 3264, whatever the number of 429 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:35,720 apps it might be, you know, they're they're still working 430 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:40,240 their way down that old line of thought, if you as it were. 431 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:44,680 And so I think, you know, it's, it's challenging and something 432 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:46,760 has to come in to challenge people to think about that 433 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:48,480 differently and from a different angle. 434 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:52,200 I think it's so true what you're just saying there of like you're 435 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:55,200 tired of talking about it and somebody else is like brand new 436 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:58,080 to them. Jeff and I have been doing this 437 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:03,320 strategy road map development with our clients for a decade or 438 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:07,480 more now and I I still have slides. 439 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:09,360 I'm just like, nobody wants to talk about that anymore. 440 00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:13,560 But it's like, it's the thing. It's like Square dead on and 441 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:17,880 they're still companies that are innovating and new start-ups in 442 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:20,760 the IGA space, even though IGA has been around forever. 443 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:24,160 And like at some point we'd like to just say, OK, well, we're 444 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:28,000 going to focus on the new stuff, but it's that basic blocking, 445 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:29,720 tackling, it's not going to go away. 446 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,680 Yeah, I agree. And I think this idea, and I've 447 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:38,880 heard it from several CIOs in this realm, that that, that for 448 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,400 the first time I hear it. It's almost like to hell with 449 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:44,920 the past. You know, I, I'm every day I get 450 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:49,120 further from the future and the, the curve of exponential curve 451 00:23:49,120 --> 00:23:52,480 of technology that we now see that future is coming faster and 452 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,600 faster and the threats from it are larger and larger. 453 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,160 And so some people now sort of go, you know what, I'm going to 454 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:02,080 pause the past, the legacy, the old way of thinking. 455 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:04,800 And I'm just going to, I'm going to try and get my real time, 456 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:09,520 just in time policy based contextual access sorted. 457 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:14,320 And I'll come back to the old world after. 458 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:19,400 Because they could never catch up, you know, So they're a 459 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,680 factor reality, I think. And but but within that you 460 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:25,680 still have to say, you know, the old stuff never goes away. 461 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,400 We create today, you know today. We create tomorrow's legacy 462 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:31,560 everyday. It's so true that plumbing needs 463 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:33,280 to be there. And I think a lot of people try 464 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:36,760 to build a house without, you know, water, electricity, a 465 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:43,400 door, like things like that. Are we in I am I Well, so from a 466 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:45,640 generational standpoint, you mentioned kind of the different 467 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,480 generations in ABA, we're on Gen. 3 and maybe that's specific 468 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,880 to IGA, but you did share a concept with Jim and I earlier 469 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:55,920 around this concept of IMV 3. Is that because of AI? 470 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,640 Is that something else that is driving in? 471 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,080 I mean, I'm assuming AI drives a ton of different. 472 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:05,360 I'm assuming IAI does drive a lot of things when it comes to 473 00:25:05,360 --> 00:25:07,160 an identity standpoint because now we're talking about things 474 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:11,720 like agents and you know, non human, which is the new term for 475 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:15,080 machine or you know, server account, you know, server cervix 476 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,520 accounts, things like that. Tell me about this concept of 477 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,480 IMV 3 and kind of help help our audience understand your 478 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:23,440 thinking around that. Yeah, I see. 479 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,840 And and the the question I usually get if I mention that V3 480 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:30,400 is like where's it come from? And is it, is it V3 in terms of 481 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:34,240 Web 3 or wherever it come? I use it just to sort of say dot 482 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:35,920 next. Really, it's much easier than 483 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:39,800 saying identity dot next. The, the I do think now there's 484 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:44,760 a need to rethink prioritisation, if nothing else. 485 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:47,320 And it really, and everyone says, show me the architecture. 486 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:51,360 And I said, well, I can show you patterns of excitation if you 487 00:25:51,360 --> 00:25:55,720 like, in the ether that that represent products, if you like, 488 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:57,520 but don't even think of it that way. 489 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:01,800 I think some of it comes down to recognising a changing priority. 490 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,040 And it sort of comes back to the, you know, I'm a big 491 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:08,080 advocate right now for the fact that folks need to rethink the 492 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:12,200 drivers, particularly for a classic enterprise IEM project. 493 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:14,840 But who's paying for it and where does it come from? 494 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:19,560 And it's still very much comes from a, the known, known, as I 495 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,880 would put it, from sets of large enterprise applications that we 496 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,520 consider sloppy administration is our biggest enemy. 497 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:31,080 Well, we now know that the adversary who is, as you rightly 498 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:35,200 now say, Jeff is a, is an agent. I mean the This is the Future 499 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,840 isn't a hacker. The future is agentry. 500 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:43,120 That's going to be all over the enterprise, all over everything. 501 00:26:43,360 --> 00:26:45,440 But they're not just adversaries, they're also your 502 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:47,600 allies in some cases, right? Because you're going to have 503 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:49,440 agents on both sides. This is like the Matrix. 504 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:53,280 We've got AI programs on both the good and bad side kind of 505 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:54,600 fighting each other. And I've kind of joked before 506 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,120 and said, all right, well, UA as fight and then let me know what 507 00:26:57,120 --> 00:27:02,240 you decide as the human. Yeah, and and and it is an 508 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,640 interesting, terrifying and intellectually challenging thing 509 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:07,800 to think about. But yeah, I mean, how good can 510 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:09,440 be how bad? Just like we said, you know, 511 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,400 campaigns on this many years in the past, you know, the biggest 512 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,440 problem is your best employee kind of thing making a mistake 513 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,480 or or being being fished. But the same thing is going to 514 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,840 happen for agents, right? I mean, we know how to spoof 515 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:23,040 agents. We know how to spoof, you know, 516 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:26,520 many things. And now with so much movement 517 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:30,520 and it come in so quickly, you know, one of my greatest, you 518 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:32,320 know, it's the old, it's the OG thing. 519 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:33,920 It's like, have we learnt nothing? 520 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:38,000 That, you know, the recurring pattern of what we're doing with 521 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:41,360 NCP right now and what we're doing with tooling and how 522 00:27:41,360 --> 00:27:45,160 quickly we're putting these scaffoldings together for these 523 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,040 new things. Are we sure we've got it right? 524 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:51,320 I, I can't believe why would we get it right this time? 525 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:53,600 You know, we got it right every other time. 526 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:58,880 History shows us and so I think V3 for me is a bit like, OK, 527 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,920 stop for a second and let's think about where these projects 528 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:03,480 come from. And. 529 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,720 And I've got this nice little chart where I sort of visualise 530 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,640 every resource that an enterprise might have be they 531 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:13,280 large, small, whatever and. And you've got sort of how 532 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:19,240 important the business thinks it is and how instrumented it is in 533 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:21,640 the infrastructure running on the other axis. 534 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,800 And what we tend to do, the truth is the, the vulnerability 535 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:27,640 is across the whole spectrum, right? 536 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:31,640 Little tiny Java apps sitting on the edge that Bob created and 537 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:35,840 threw out there and forgot about massive things in the cloud. 538 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:39,040 The which we're hopefully managing the entire before 539 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:40,880 that's spread across this, this matrix. 540 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,360 And what we tend to do is choose things in the first phases of 541 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:49,280 our projects that suit our funding and suit our capability 542 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,360 in the infrastructure. And they tend to be large apps 543 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,920 that we have when you go to your vendor, you say, do you support? 544 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:57,840 And they go, yes, So you start there. 545 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:02,400 And, and that's very much whereas I think this notion in a 546 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,720 phrase that that I've used many times in the past is, you know, 547 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:09,440 time to visibility and time to understanding is maybe the prime 548 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:13,760 visibility because the adversary knows that we train the agent to 549 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,360 do that. The agent, the adversary agent 550 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:20,440 now looks for things that that look for low management. 551 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,520 That's, you know, if you're managing it, you'll notice 552 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:26,600 what's going on. So I think V3 is a little bit 553 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:28,640 about timing of course there if that makes sense, you know 554 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,280 timing and and funding and thinking about scope. 555 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:36,040 Are we getting fast, smarter, faster? 556 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:39,600 So I look at AI, right? And it's just, you know, every 557 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:43,600 day there's some breathtaking new use case for it, and it just 558 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,360 keeps getting better and better. But I'm also seeing that there's 559 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:48,640 a lot more coordination with some of these vendors. 560 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:53,720 So things like for example, MCP and A to AI kind of think of 561 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:55,640 those as sort of like SAML and Oauth. 562 00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,880 But it took many years to get to the point for SAML and Oauth. 563 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:02,120 And here we are only, let's call it one to two years into the 564 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:06,200 kind of the next Gen. or the generative AI kind of world that 565 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,840 we're all living in now. So I feel like we have learned 566 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:11,720 some things in the past. Now is never going to be as fast 567 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:15,960 as you want to know, but is are are we getting smarter faster 568 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,560 when it comes to developing standards and integrating all of 569 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:22,520 these different technologies in a way that you know hopefully is 570 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:24,960 secure and has the appropriate controls and things like that in 571 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:30,360 place? But maybe I am a big fan, you 572 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:33,000 might say, because I'm a I'm a sidelines fan. 573 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:38,400 I haven't contributed anything to SSF the, the, the framework 574 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,640 or to Cape or any of the standards that sit on top of it. 575 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:49,680 But I do think an ontology of method, an ontology of typing, 576 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:52,880 of people, of things, of entitlement, of classes of risk. 577 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:55,920 I'm a big ontology fan. I kind of always have been the 578 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,280 semantic web. When I saw it, you know, 579 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,440 Barnsley and the crew came out, I was like, this is the future. 580 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:03,840 This is how we're going to solve everything. 581 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,360 Because without a knowledge of a type, how can you interact with 582 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:10,480 it in an automated fashion? So I think there's a lot of hope 583 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,760 there. And, and so I do think in my 3.0 584 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:17,520 architecture, I would have a shared signals framework. 585 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,320 I would put a lot of faith there, but unfortunately, 586 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:24,080 there's not a lot of agreement capability. 587 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,280 There's some simple things like we're finally going to do global 588 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:28,280 sign out. Amazing. 589 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,360 You know, after all this time. You know, we're going to do it 590 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:36,560 with with SSI for a while, you know, but OK, so we've got that. 591 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:39,800 But there's much potential there for much more interesting 592 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,040 things. And it could come from from 593 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:46,200 operational telemetry as well. This idea to create ontologies 594 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:50,320 of things that are well described that understand things 595 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,000 like what an entitlement is and and how you can grade it. 596 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:56,000 I think that's super interesting because then we can attach 597 00:31:56,000 --> 00:32:00,000 machine intelligence to to that typing and that that reference 598 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,280 model and do do do more interesting things with it. 599 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,360 Big fan there. Darren, one of the things I 600 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:12,520 want, I want to bring this back to this AI conversation because 601 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,080 here's what I think. I think practitioners throughout 602 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:21,880 time, and this is one of the reasons I think that 603 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:27,120 organizations under invest in I am because there's always 604 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,120 something better out there just on the cusp. 605 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:35,000 And now it's AI and it's like why you've been invest in I am 606 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:39,520 right now when this AI thing is going to come and it's going to 607 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,080 be way better than what I have now. 608 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:47,080 I guess to turn that into a question for you would be, are 609 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:50,800 my current investments just going to become like worthless 610 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,680 junk in a couple of years when the whole enterprise goes AI? 611 00:32:55,120 --> 00:33:01,880 Is that even a reality or will some of these things still be is 612 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:05,520 identity and access? Is it going to look something 613 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:09,200 like it does now, you know, a few years down the road where 614 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:13,640 maybe we're not 100% AI, maybe that's just a pipe dream, but AI 615 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,200 is definitely having a major impact and replacing 616 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:19,840 applications and our organizations are starting to 617 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:24,560 build agent based applications rather than the traditional 618 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:28,560 coding model of client server applications or web-based 619 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:30,960 applications the way they are today. 620 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:34,920 Well, let's face it, right? I'll say, geez, here we can say 621 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,600 everything that we come up with today is going to completely 622 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:39,680 change everything we've done before, right? 623 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:44,200 This is what we do, right? Because we're all fascinated by 624 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:45,560 it. You know, we're all like little 625 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:48,960 scientists who who love the new thing and we wouldn't be here if 626 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:51,000 we didn't, right? So there's a certain element of 627 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:52,600 that. I do think the composition of 628 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:56,800 the stack changes and, and, and time to implementation should 629 00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:00,400 shorten in every sense. Even in the AI that we add to 630 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:04,440 our legacy IAM stack, it's focused on faster deployment, 631 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:08,400 faster type of value. So I think there's a certain, a 632 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:12,480 certain amount of that that is definitely tangible. 633 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:15,960 I do think the way, so, so the way we're going to implement 634 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:19,360 these things is changing. And, and the, I mean, let's face 635 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:23,360 it, what you can now do with a simple ChatGPT session is 636 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:28,880 remarkable, whichever foundation model you tend to to work with. 637 00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:31,719 But let's just stop for a second and go. 638 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:34,760 All that does is accelerate us to the same place, right? 639 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:39,159 We've still got an entity, be it human or more human than human, 640 00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:42,520 which is, I'm a bit of a Blade Runner fan. 641 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:46,880 You're still going to make an access decision, right? 642 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,880 And, and what we've done is we've made the Matrix even 643 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:51,880 worse, right? Because we've now got an agent 644 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,920 that is owned by somebody operating on behalf of somebody 645 00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:58,720 using a proxy account to get hold of some legacy data. 646 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:05,640 So we've now got 3 pins, if you like, of of exponential variable 647 00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:09,080 to apply, but we've got to make the same decision who has access 648 00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:12,040 to what, when and why And then when they did, was that 649 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:16,720 appropriate and can I prove it? I don't see how this is my point 650 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,040 earlier. I don't that fundamental tenant 651 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:22,920 doesn't change. It's just got harder and it's 652 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,520 going to happen faster without people knowing about it. 653 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:30,920 So. Then reading about and learning 654 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:33,920 about and I don't know why I haven't put any into action yet, 655 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,080 but this whole idea of vibe coding. 656 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:40,160 And so I'm not sure if you've given it a try, but I keep 657 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:43,600 hearing about how, you know, development as it's done today 658 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:45,760 is not going to happen much longer. 659 00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:48,960 Consulting isn't going to, you're not going to need 660 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,040 consultants pretty soon. So I don't know what the heck 661 00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:54,080 any of us are going to do. The AI is going to be doing 662 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:57,960 everything for us, you know, podcasts, and we're going to 663 00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:00,800 have to wash our clothes because the robots aren't there yet. 664 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:03,120 Well I hate to say it but there's already AI doing 665 00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:06,120 podcasts so yeah, it is washing clothes. 666 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:09,800 Yeah, I don't know what the rest of us are going to do, and maybe 667 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:14,960 we'll have to do some kind of manual work, which I know Jeff 668 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:20,000 and I are both allergic to, but I don't know, vibe coding. 669 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:23,800 Have you gotten into it at all? Where you kind of like tell the 670 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:26,600 AI the LLM? Here's what I'm trying to 671 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:28,440 achieve, then we'll write the code for you. 672 00:36:29,240 --> 00:36:30,800 Absolutely. I'm a bit of a hack, you know, a 673 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:33,640 bit of a hacker. You know, you can usually look 674 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:35,880 at somebody's coding preferences and decide where they are. 675 00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:39,720 I like Pearl straightaway. Soon as I move, I move from sea 676 00:36:39,720 --> 00:36:42,080 to Pearl straight away because I like something, you know, I'm, 677 00:36:42,240 --> 00:36:45,000 I'm piping even more so low declaration. 678 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:50,680 There's no better intuitive declaration language and 679 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:54,520 speaking to a computer, right? And so, yeah, I have a little 680 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:57,200 bit. So my daughter's a type 1 681 00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:00,360 diabetic. And so I'm sort of, I'm always 682 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:04,560 interested in how I can create utilities that could help more 683 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:06,720 right when you look at panel information. 684 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:09,880 So I've sat myself down and said, hey, I'm going to create, 685 00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:13,160 I want to create a system that will take in blood panel data, 686 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:15,760 do it securely. Don't want it in the cloud. 687 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:17,960 Want to do the edge rag list and blah, blah, blah. 688 00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:20,240 I just blurb it out to the thing. 689 00:37:20,720 --> 00:37:23,600 I mean it gives me a. Package. 690 00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:26,600 It gives me a complete package and then I've got a primary, my 691 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:28,760 partner in store and it tells me how to fix it. 692 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:32,760 It's like holy mackerel. And you know what? 693 00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:34,440 I now get a little UI and go pop. 694 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:36,680 It pops up and it says, do you want to download your stuff in 695 00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:38,280 your Apple profile? And I go, yes. 696 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:39,920 And it just does it. And I say, pull in this 697 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:42,680 spreadsheet and it gives me the normative curves for it and then 698 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,360 points to a whole bunch of medical research that I mean, 699 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:48,000 holy mackerel. Yeah. 700 00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:51,200 No, it's not perfect. It's a hack. 701 00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:56,120 But I mean, but you weren't able to just like, knock that out in 702 00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,720 that amount of time before. Oh goodness. 703 00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:01,920 I think, you know, one of the cool things about having you 704 00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:04,680 here, Darren, like we have like some rough notes that we want, 705 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:08,840 but I'm just like, I got this guy here, I'm going to pick his 706 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:11,320 brain. You know, one of the other 707 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:15,760 things that kind of a shift that I'm seeing in our identity 708 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:21,160 industry is more of a shift toward when you look at like the 709 00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:22,720 new. And I shouldn't say it's a shift 710 00:38:22,720 --> 00:38:26,280 toward, but it's like a lot of the new products are spinning up 711 00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:31,680 and, you know, a big thing is about monitoring what's going 712 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:34,280 on. So rather than managing and 713 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:38,560 controlling the access being the focus of the new product, the 714 00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:42,040 new product says, all right, here's your environment, put our 715 00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,120 tool in your environment. We're going to watch what's 716 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:47,560 going on. We're going to monitor what the 717 00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:50,440 identities and access is doing, and we're going to tell you when 718 00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:52,760 things are wrong. I mean, I was talking about it 719 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,000 at a very high level. They all have their own 720 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:58,480 different approaches to do that, but that seems to be a big 721 00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:00,640 shift. How do you feel about that? 722 00:39:01,720 --> 00:39:05,000 I think it's inevitable and it's good and it's right, and we 723 00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:11,040 should castaway some of the historical legacy preference 724 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:12,600 that we have in order to make that work. 725 00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:14,480 And let me explain what I mean by that. 726 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:18,040 So one of the companies that I work quite closely with Orkid, 727 00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:22,560 they have an orchestrator, an end point, and I don't want to 728 00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:25,080 make this about them, but it's indicative of the class. 729 00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:29,680 That's why I'm bringing it up. They have, if you like, an OS 730 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:34,400 telemetry, OS level telemetry, dissolvable agent that is like 731 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:36,400 the smartest identity guy you've ever met. 732 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:40,000 And it sits there and it goes, oh, there's a port over there. 733 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:42,400 What's going on over there? Oh, there's a port connected to 734 00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:44,280 some code. Wow, let's have to go see where 735 00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:45,880 that code is. Let's reverse engineer that 736 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:47,040 code. Oh, that code. 737 00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:50,160 Wait, there's an AD group call coming on here and it reverse 738 00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:55,640 engineers you down to a registerable connector for an 739 00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:58,960 IGA platform, for example. And you go, holy mackerel, it 740 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:02,040 can do that. And yes, it can. 741 00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:04,240 And it's fundamentally hotel, right? 742 00:40:04,240 --> 00:40:06,680 It's operational telemetry mixed with a whole bunch of other 743 00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:09,240 tech. And you look at it and you say, 744 00:40:09,240 --> 00:40:13,600 well, but it's a, you know, identity is agent nurse and you 745 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:15,840 go, well, maybe in the future it's not. 746 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:18,760 It's self aware. And I think one of the things 747 00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:22,520 that coming out of Cell Point in 2020, I was sort of very keen on 748 00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:25,280 this idea that we had to stop identity from being a 749 00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:28,080 centralised management funded process. 750 00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:30,240 That's kind of what we've been talking about to being this 751 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,800 disseminated thing. And I don't mean distributed in 752 00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:38,320 terms of, you know, self sovereign identity, maybe, but I 753 00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:42,880 mean in terms of it just being there, being present and being 754 00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:46,920 self operating. It's sort of unable to 755 00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:50,320 understand what that means and integrate it for you. 756 00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:53,840 And that future is a real potential. 757 00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:57,640 It's that technology, you see, it's enabled by AI and it's 758 00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:01,440 enabled by, you know, thinking in a new stack. 759 00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:08,000 And, and, and so I, I do think that has a big chance to change 760 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,560 the game a little. When we're fighting an automated 761 00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:14,120 adversary, obviously we have to defend it with an automated 762 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:17,720 ecosystem and that's one of them. 763 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:21,720 So I think there's a lot there. And I think also, again, I'll 764 00:41:21,720 --> 00:41:24,040 come back to that ontology. I think one of the things that 765 00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:28,440 I'd like to see in, in the hotel standards and others is this 766 00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:31,920 firm view of what things are. Because if I say to you guys, I 767 00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:33,640 mean, we're really anointed, right? 768 00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:37,440 I say what an entitlement is. We've all got a different view 769 00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:41,440 of what it means and we say what a risk factor is or what a, you 770 00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:44,320 know, a Commission is. And And so, yeah, patterning 771 00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:47,200 that stuff down in the underlying infrastructure would 772 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:49,400 be a very, very small thing to do. 773 00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:54,480 And this is the worst it is ever going to be right for AI in some 774 00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:56,240 of these tools, right? It's it can just continue gets 775 00:41:56,240 --> 00:41:59,200 better and better and better. Or I should say maybe better is 776 00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:01,200 not the right word. More capable is probably more 777 00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:03,120 appropriate word because we don't know yet if it's kind of 778 00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:04,440 bad and it's going to be used for both. 779 00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:09,480 But this leads me to one thing that you've mentioned in the 780 00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:12,280 past somewhere that I saw was that laws might be better than 781 00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:15,520 architecture. And so I'd like to understand a 782 00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:16,720 little bit more. First of all, did I get that 783 00:42:16,720 --> 00:42:19,240 right? And if so, you know what? 784 00:42:19,240 --> 00:42:21,000 What is the the thought process behind that? 785 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:23,880 Yeah, I think a lot of it coming down to some of the things we 786 00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:26,720 we've touched on recurring theme, right, is that the 787 00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:28,600 architecture will continue to change. 788 00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:32,520 Like for example, you're doing this speaking to companies 789 00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:34,560 yourselves. And, you know, I think the 790 00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:38,400 legacy is part of that architecture and we tend to not 791 00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:41,560 think of it. And and that's almost a law unto 792 00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:45,360 itself is to say that you, you, you can't flush stuff it, it 793 00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:48,480 just doesn't work like that. You know, the long tail of these 794 00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:52,320 technologies remain in place for some considerable time. 795 00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:55,760 And so that what does that mean in in practical terms? 796 00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:59,320 It doesn't mean it doesn't boil down to a specification. 797 00:42:59,720 --> 00:43:03,200 It boils down to a principle that says, you know, come into 798 00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:05,520 this understanding that the integration of the new and the 799 00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:11,760 old is a prime directive because that's what you're going to have 800 00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:16,360 to do. And I think things like, you 801 00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:20,440 know, I've always used this term model based. 802 00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:22,960 We used to talk about it in the birth point of governance where 803 00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:25,800 it was, oh, it's model based and being guilty there of that 804 00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:27,400 ontology. What the Hell's a model there? 805 00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:30,000 And well, a model is a conceptual understanding of 806 00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:33,240 something. And again, the law we've learnt 807 00:43:33,240 --> 00:43:37,560 here is, is that we have to make our desired state model based. 808 00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:40,960 And whether that does it, when I say model, is that our back? 809 00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:44,600 Well, it wasn't one time. It's probably not now, is it? 810 00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:50,360 You know, Mike over at glue talks about T back, you know, 811 00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:52,600 you know, token based access control and I think we're going 812 00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:56,160 to keep inventing things. But a law rather than an 813 00:43:56,160 --> 00:44:00,480 architecture for me would be make sure that you can codify 814 00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:05,280 the thing that represents the rule for you in a way that it 815 00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:08,880 can be governed, that it can be understood. 816 00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:13,480 Because, you know, we we're not doing a great job of that right 817 00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:16,680 now, even in the new red red that we're putting in terms of 818 00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:20,160 the policy languages, just the ability to test the policy and 819 00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:23,080 see what it means. That should be a law of the 820 00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:25,520 model, the model. You should be able to express it 821 00:44:25,720 --> 00:44:28,360 and you should be able to say prove yourself, prove yourself, 822 00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:31,440 prove yourself. And that means show me who would 823 00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:34,960 have. Oh, Jim, Darren and Jeff, that's 824 00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:39,080 the answer to my evaluation of the policy as a speculative 825 00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:41,600 evaluation. So God, sorry, that's a huge 826 00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:44,240 diatribe to get to a point of saying that's a good example of 827 00:44:44,240 --> 00:44:47,800 a model of a law. The law should be the law of 828 00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:50,560 models for access, regardless of what they are. 829 00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:52,880 Does that make sense? Yeah. 830 00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:54,640 Yeah, it. Totally makes sense and leads 831 00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:58,280 them to this next question I'm going to ask because I think 832 00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:03,960 that the IAM practitioner is the ultimate pragmatist. 833 00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:07,680 I think sometimes people believe that consultants live in the 834 00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:10,800 ivory tower and some do. But for the most part, we're 835 00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:13,600 kind of probably get this too, because we have all these great 836 00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:17,080 concepts and everything that the industry's trying to do. 837 00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:22,560 If we work with clients who they got a problem now, like we need 838 00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:26,200 to fix this problem now, not worry about down the road. 839 00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:30,480 And I think you know, the, the clients, the, OR what I'll just 840 00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:34,720 call the IM practitioners of the world, they're the ones living 841 00:45:34,720 --> 00:45:37,760 with this problem. They got 1 foot in the past and 842 00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:41,200 have to support legacy systems, but they have to have one foot 843 00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:43,320 in the future. They have to be thinking about 844 00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:47,160 the next thing or else it happens and they don't have a 845 00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:50,840 solution for it. I think this piece around shared 846 00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:55,120 signals it to me is like the right solution for the right 847 00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:58,840 time. At the same time, folks are 848 00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:02,120 trying to solve from the current problems and they might not know 849 00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:07,560 how to articulate that business value of kind of investing in 850 00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:11,000 something that is more future facing, especially if they're 851 00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:14,800 not like a technology company or cutting edge company. 852 00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:20,640 Taking all that context, I would like to ask you to help those 853 00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:27,320 that practitioner put together their sales pitch or their their 854 00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:31,000 way of thinking about something like that to make the case, you 855 00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:34,680 know, and I call this that identity version three, you know 856 00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:37,800 the kind of next generation. How do they think about that and 857 00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:41,280 then make that business case in their in the boardroom of their 858 00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:43,760 company? Yeah, always hard. 859 00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:47,960 I mean that, you know, making that business case is is so 860 00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:50,360 hard, right. I think IGA did a very good job 861 00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:53,600 of that by by professing automation. 862 00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:56,920 We can get you what you need, pastor, don't wait for your 863 00:46:56,920 --> 00:46:58,720 account. There were real things that made 864 00:46:58,720 --> 00:47:03,160 that business case pointy and, and resulted in it sort of being 865 00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:07,520 lead project directive from, from for many, many years. 866 00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:10,800 I, I, I still, I could sort of come back again to that 867 00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:15,400 underlying thought that we as practitioners have to live in a 868 00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:19,880 world of reality, which involves the past, the current and the 869 00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:22,600 future. And so I think a meta 870 00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:26,880 architecture, you might say for that is one that says, I think 871 00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:31,200 we're still going to be doing static profile based legacy 872 00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:34,600 systems administration, administration time stuff. 873 00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:37,600 I just don't see how that's going to go away. 874 00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:39,160 Those systems are still going to be there. 875 00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:43,200 So the, the pitch is we, we, we have to manage that. 876 00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:46,280 We do still have to manage profiles in static applications 877 00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:49,040 to be the on premier in the cloud, traditional governance 878 00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:52,280 administration you might say. But now we've got to think much 879 00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:58,000 more critically about runtime, real time context right in 880 00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:02,560 session, if you like, which is where externalised authorisation 881 00:48:03,720 --> 00:48:07,760 and and some of the things that the likes of Signal talk about 882 00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:10,000 in that bucket there, they've obviously got our brethren and 883 00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:13,400 others that that do the same where it's much more about the 884 00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:16,040 context making decision in the session. 885 00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:20,560 You've got to do that as well. Now it's unfortunate that, but 886 00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:23,360 yeah, that's not. And then we've got to look over 887 00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:26,360 on the right hand side of that, almost like to a third pillar 888 00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:29,160 and say, well, what am I going to do about these agents? 889 00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:33,520 I mean, it would be foolish now not to consider that. 890 00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:36,600 And, and, and, and I think there's, you know, some things 891 00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:39,560 we touched on about NCP and how you're going to put, you know, 892 00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:42,800 gateways in front of NCP and now some of the things that you can 893 00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:44,880 do there, but it has to be in the diagram at once. 894 00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:48,080 So I think the mature thing for us to do now is to, is to sort 895 00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:51,600 of fess up a little bit and say, look, this stuff is moving 896 00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:55,200 faster than any brain can manage. 897 00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:58,840 So let's accept that we have a past, the present and the future 898 00:48:59,240 --> 00:49:02,400 and let's try and find commonality there. 899 00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:07,360 Let's try and find things that could leverage all three, all 900 00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:11,560 three tiers of the that sort of legacy static admin time, that 901 00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:17,480 current state in the loop just in time, whatever enables you're 902 00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:20,000 going to call it, right decision making, right. 903 00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:23,120 And this edgy future, which is still not baked. 904 00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:26,960 Let's face it, is that an easier to sell to a SIFO? 905 00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:33,280 No, but I think we're going to see a new, I honestly believe 906 00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:38,880 we're going to see a new extent of vulnerability coming out. 907 00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:41,000 This is not just going to be about ransomware and being 908 00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:43,600 popped. It's going to be like opening a 909 00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:46,800 can and it being festering with insects. 910 00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:50,320 We're going to find big. A friend of mine was dealing 911 00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:54,600 with last night said, imagine a scenario where somebody gets in 912 00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:57,040 and trades all of your stock, you're a pension fund, trades 913 00:49:57,040 --> 00:49:58,360 all of your stuff. It's all gone. 914 00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:00,640 It's all traded and gone. What are you going to do? 915 00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:03,520 Billions of dollars and you open that count up and it's full of 916 00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:09,440 that future is coming. And maybe that will change us 917 00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:11,360 because I think we've got to become a bit like, Oh yeah, I 918 00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:13,800 got parked. Oh, well, everyone else did too, 919 00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:16,360 so no problem. Yeah, I think maybe that will 920 00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:18,920 flush us to me. You know, we, we make us a bit 921 00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:21,800 more conscious. Well, congratulations Darren. 922 00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:24,640 Now I'm thoroughly disgusted, but just the visual of a 923 00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:27,880 festering, you know, pot of bugs, not my jam. 924 00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:31,680 I know we only have a few minutes left and I want to make 925 00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:33,360 sure that I'm cognitive time because I do want to ask you 926 00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:35,960 about kite surfing. But before I get to that, give 927 00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:39,000 me one. What's 1 prediction that you'll 928 00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:42,320 make around I am and let's say sometime in the next three to 929 00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:44,240 five years. So sort of near term, like 930 00:50:44,240 --> 00:50:46,400 what's the what's something that you think will surprise people 931 00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:51,800 for an I am perspective? I think people will be surprised 932 00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:57,520 what we can do with next generation infrastructure that 933 00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:00,320 is layered on top of the legacy, that's layered on top that's 934 00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:03,080 quite the legacy, the current, the current operate. 935 00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:06,040 If we're able to keep moving forward on the operate, I think 936 00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:10,400 people will be amazed just like I am today when I want to write 937 00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:13,640 something, how intuitive the machine can be. 938 00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:18,520 I don't believe it will ever be sentient, truly sentient. 939 00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:19,840 I don't believe it will be conscious. 940 00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:23,520 We can get into that for a whole podcast that boy, is it going to 941 00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:25,880 be smart. And, and, and, and that's no 942 00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:29,080 news for anybody, right? So I would temper that by just 943 00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:31,240 saying, and you know what, you're going to have all the old 944 00:51:31,240 --> 00:51:34,920 stuff. I'm less disgusted, so that's 945 00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:38,200 good. Let's shift here to a little bit 946 00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:39,560 of a lighter note before we wrap things up. 947 00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:42,120 You mentioned before we hit record here that you're into 948 00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:45,120 kite surfing, and that's one of the things that we've we've also 949 00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:47,360 started since the first time you joined us way back five years 950 00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:49,360 ago. As we end shows on sort of, you 951 00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:51,440 know, something non identity related, We get kind of neck 952 00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:54,200 deep sometimes into identity or if we're talking to the clouds, 953 00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:55,960 sky high in our heads, right, things like that. 954 00:51:56,520 --> 00:51:58,400 And so we like to kind of find out what people do in their 955 00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:00,360 spare times or just kind of fun conversations. 956 00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:01,920 So that's sort of like the genesis of this. 957 00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:05,520 And you mentioned kite surfing. Now I've never been kite 958 00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:08,440 surfing. And so you're going to be by Obi 959 00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:11,240 Wan and you're going to explain to me, first of all, how you 960 00:52:11,240 --> 00:52:12,400 know? First of all, what is it for 961 00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:14,240 people who aren't familiar? I think I'm familiar with it, 962 00:52:14,240 --> 00:52:15,680 but maybe people aren't out there. 963 00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:20,240 And if I wanted to get started, what is the easiest way for me 964 00:52:20,240 --> 00:52:21,440 to get started with kite surfing? 965 00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:24,080 Right. And I guess I what I do know is 966 00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:27,080 kite foiling. So basically I ride a hydrofoil, 967 00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:30,120 which is basically an aeroplane wing under a surfboard. 968 00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:33,840 Tiny little one with a kite in the air to drive it forward. 969 00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:39,360 So it's incredible. Really low drag coefficient, so 970 00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:41,720 it's very efficient on the water, very fast. 971 00:52:41,720 --> 00:52:45,440 You can jump, move around. I've always been interested in 972 00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:47,480 ring sports. I was a windsurfer for many 973 00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:49,200 years. Came to the US as a windsurfer, 974 00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:51,840 stayed in Austin because it was like, you could, you could. 975 00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:53,360 You don't need a wet suit with you. 976 00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:56,120 It's amazing. Now I'm just picturing you like, 977 00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:59,200 you know, windsurfing all the way from into the United States 978 00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:01,360 off the off the water. Pretty much. 979 00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:04,880 I mean, I came here, like I said, you know, if it's windy in 980 00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:08,480 England, the weather's crummy here in Austin, we had good. 981 00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:11,840 So I came here as a windsurfer and then progressed to kite 982 00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:14,080 surfing. So you're on this little tiny 983 00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:16,520 surfboard with a, with a hydrofoil and a plane wing 984 00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:18,480 underneath you and a kite dragging you around. 985 00:53:18,720 --> 00:53:22,400 It's extremely exhilarating. It's outdoors, It's it's in the 986 00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:24,680 environment. And I think I'm drawn to it 987 00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:26,880 because it's kind of an in the moment thing. 988 00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:31,560 I'm very, we live very cerebral lives. 989 00:53:31,560 --> 00:53:34,440 We, you know, I'm fascinated. I'm a bit of a researchy. 990 00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:37,760 I'm fascinated by by brain at the moment. 991 00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:40,840 I've been fascinated by geology. I'm always sort of this is 992 00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:43,240 something. No, you shut it down, you're on 993 00:53:43,240 --> 00:53:47,080 the water, you've got this giant powerful thing above you covered 994 00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:52,040 in lines that cut your head off. Boy, you better be present. 995 00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:56,000 So it's very here and now. So I love that from it. 996 00:53:56,240 --> 00:53:59,160 If you want to start with it, you have to dedicate some time 997 00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:01,800 to it and you just have to go to a great resort where there's a 998 00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:06,120 nice beach so you can learn how to fly a kite because ultimately 999 00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:10,960 you're flying a kite, just a kite in the sky and and you have 1000 00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:13,400 to it's not something you can just go try, go try. 1001 00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:15,800 It's not like riding a bike. You know, anyone can mount a 1002 00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:18,600 bike, right? Not everyone can kite surf. 1003 00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:20,680 And I think that's one of the things he got found a good kite 1004 00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:24,360 school in a great location in South Padre in Texas or I have a 1005 00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:28,600 place in the Columbia River now in I'm actually at Washington 1006 00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:32,840 State just in Hood River is one of the founding places for it. 1007 00:54:32,840 --> 00:54:36,920 So go somewhere like Hood River, find a good kite school and you 1008 00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:40,280 know, go for it because it's always exhilarate. 1009 00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:43,320 How how fast do you get doing that? 1010 00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:45,800 Because I met and obviously it's, you know, wind probably 1011 00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:48,520 plays a big factor in that, but how fast can you get going? 1012 00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:51,920 You can go faster than the wind, which is very interesting. 1013 00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:54,840 So it's physics from physics perspective, it's very 1014 00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:58,440 interesting. So you can go anywhere from 25 1015 00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:02,680 to 40 knots, so, you know, anywhere from 30 to 45 miles an 1016 00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:06,240 hour, depending on the foil that you're using and, and where you 1017 00:55:06,240 --> 00:55:07,600 are. And you can jump. 1018 00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:09,760 And that's the way I like about it. 1019 00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:12,800 So for an old, you know, I'm 58 now, you really shouldn't be 1020 00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:15,360 doing any of this. But I like to jump. 1021 00:55:15,680 --> 00:55:18,080 You can hear a wave. And we've now got all these 1022 00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:20,720 devices that will tell us our GPS locations. 1023 00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:25,360 I'm on a thing called surfer and I can, so I can jump 40 feet in 1024 00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:27,200 the air. So you can boost up a wave and 1025 00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:31,280 go 40 feet in the air and feel and, and in Hood River, there's 1026 00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:34,080 the manhood there and it looks like you're jumping over it. 1027 00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:37,920 It's just a nominal. And so you know, that's quite a 1028 00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:40,720 rush. So you can go fast, you can jump 1029 00:55:40,720 --> 00:55:42,960 high, so. That sounds amazing. 1030 00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:47,480 So I guess you could probably get carried away by the wind as 1031 00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:49,120 well, right? How do you control coming back 1032 00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:50,520 down? If you're if you get caught up 1033 00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:54,000 in in a strong wind, I imagine you're going to go quite a 1034 00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:55,840 distance. It has happened. 1035 00:55:55,840 --> 00:55:57,160 People get picked up, thrown around. 1036 00:55:57,160 --> 00:56:00,320 I've been thrown on the floor. In fact, I remember going to a, 1037 00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:03,920 an identity event in new in on the East Coast. 1038 00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:06,800 It was maybe when the Gardner events on, on the Sunday, I got 1039 00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:08,520 picked up and slapped on the floor. 1040 00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:12,200 And yeah, I, I, that wasn't a lot of fun. 1041 00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:14,280 I could barely walk and I still made it. 1042 00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:17,880 In fact, in 2008, I think I broke my leg actually 1043 00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:21,560 windsurfing and I, I actually went to a conference to use a 1044 00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:25,160 conference on crutches from it. So yeah, I can be. 1045 00:56:25,160 --> 00:56:29,040 You've got to be careful, but I think without risk, you know. 1046 00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:30,640 That's what adds the spice, right? 1047 00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:33,400 That's part of the the sport, I guess of it too, right? 1048 00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:36,880 Is it is a physical activity. So there's, you know, inevitably 1049 00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:39,960 some chance of injury. At first I was thinking, OK, 1050 00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:42,360 well, you're over the water and like you've got water to break 1051 00:56:42,360 --> 00:56:44,720 your fall. But if you hit the water going, 1052 00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:48,320 you know, $3045.00 an hour, that can cause some, some damage. 1053 00:56:48,960 --> 00:56:51,240 Oh, big time. Particularly if you if you get 1054 00:56:51,240 --> 00:56:53,640 the kite wrong, it can swing you like a, you know, like a 1055 00:56:53,640 --> 00:56:57,480 pendulum and slap you down on the ground if you're unlucky. 1056 00:56:57,480 --> 00:56:58,920 Don't go near the ground, but on the water. 1057 00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:00,680 Yeah. I don't want to make it sound 1058 00:57:00,680 --> 00:57:03,040 like it's big radical there. I now like to cruise around. 1059 00:57:03,240 --> 00:57:05,560 I'm an OG definitely. I like to cruise around and 1060 00:57:05,560 --> 00:57:07,480 jump. But it is fun when you, when you 1061 00:57:07,480 --> 00:57:11,480 can jump over those young kids that take that really hard. 1062 00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:13,640 They're like that old man just jumped over me. 1063 00:57:13,640 --> 00:57:17,400 What the heck? Jim, have you ever been kite 1064 00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:19,960 surfing or windsurfing? No, you know what? 1065 00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:23,920 But I've seen it so many times, and it looks so much fun. 1066 00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:28,400 So I was just sitting here enjoying hearing Darren, and 1067 00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:32,640 then when he said, well, you know, you got to have some risk 1068 00:57:32,640 --> 00:57:36,600 or something, I was just thinking, he's spent his career 1069 00:57:36,960 --> 00:57:41,600 building systems and building around the business proposition 1070 00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:45,760 of reducing risk. And here he is inserting risk 1071 00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:49,240 into his life. I just find it a little ironic. 1072 00:57:49,240 --> 00:57:53,040 But yeah, sounds super fun. I would love to try it. 1073 00:57:54,080 --> 00:57:58,560 How about you? Yeah, I've, I'm not much for 1074 00:57:58,560 --> 00:58:00,280 water sports. I think the one time that I 1075 00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:03,920 tried to water ski, I got dragged behind a boat. 1076 00:58:03,920 --> 00:58:06,760 I forgot to let go of the rope. And so I was kind of going face 1077 00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:08,840 1st and through the lake for a while. 1078 00:58:08,840 --> 00:58:10,320 I was like, oh, I should probably let go of this thing 1079 00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:12,400 now. And that was my one and only 1080 00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:14,680 attempt at, you know, standing up on skis. 1081 00:58:14,680 --> 00:58:16,440 So I, Darren, you're I know you're laughing at me, but 1082 00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:19,960 that's a true story. And that was 30 plus years ago. 1083 00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:23,960 That's the thing, you know, be prepared for a little humility, 1084 00:58:23,960 --> 00:58:25,440 right? Because, you know, it happens to 1085 00:58:25,440 --> 00:58:28,080 everybody. I pulled up at the beach the 1086 00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:30,440 other day and there was a little work on the peanut gallery. 1087 00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:31,880 There's a little gang of them all people. 1088 00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:34,160 I know that. And right in front of everybody 1089 00:58:34,160 --> 00:58:37,600 got it wrong, got slapped down in the water like a newbie, and 1090 00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:39,960 everyone cheers and waves their arms in the air. 1091 00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:43,040 You know, it's kind of like generally a good crowd with 1092 00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:44,600 that. But yeah, you know, hey, we're 1093 00:58:44,600 --> 00:58:46,200 all human. That's what happens. 1094 00:58:46,480 --> 00:58:49,800 Again, if it was easy, you know probably wouldn't want to do it. 1095 00:58:49,840 --> 00:58:51,440 That's true. And we're, and you know, it's 1096 00:58:51,440 --> 00:58:55,200 probably a rite of passage, right, to, to eat the water, so 1097 00:58:55,200 --> 00:58:57,720 to speak. Most definitely. 1098 00:58:57,720 --> 00:58:59,560 Like I said, I've been dragged behind that same boat. 1099 00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:03,360 Well, Darren, I appreciate you coming back. 1100 00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:04,920 I I can't believe it's been five years. 1101 00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:06,960 Let's not make it so long next time, I hope you'll come back 1102 00:59:06,960 --> 00:59:08,200 and share some more of your insights. 1103 00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:11,040 It's always great when we get to talk to just, you know, O GS in 1104 00:59:11,040 --> 00:59:13,040 the space and people have such an influence on it. 1105 00:59:13,040 --> 00:59:17,480 So, and I echo Jim early on saying, yeah, thanks for thanks 1106 00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:20,680 for joining us so early on, like I said, nobody was listening and 1107 00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:24,320 you know, to to get Someone Like You on was really validating for 1108 00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:27,400 us and it still is so. Thank you for being I I think 1109 00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:30,080 you guys are doing an awesome job and you back it up with 1110 00:59:30,080 --> 00:59:34,040 practical real experience in the field and and you know, you're 1111 00:59:34,040 --> 00:59:35,720 at the events and so I'd love to come. 1112 00:59:35,720 --> 00:59:38,200 I'm going to go. I didn't know about the using 1113 00:59:38,200 --> 00:59:39,840 the code. I'll absolutely do that. 1114 00:59:39,840 --> 00:59:42,680 And next event, let's make sure we sit down, have a soda. 1115 00:59:42,680 --> 00:59:44,640 Together, that is a deal for sure. 1116 00:59:45,120 --> 00:59:47,200 All right, I'm going to put your LinkedIn in our show notes as 1117 00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:48,960 well as some other links for people that I didn't check out. 1118 00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:52,960 So, you know, that's it. I think that's all we got for 1119 00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:55,240 for this week. You know, we're on the web, IDC, 1120 00:59:55,240 --> 00:59:57,880 podcast.com, do all those fun things like like and subscribe 1121 00:59:57,880 --> 01:00:00,640 helps us get great guests like Darren and yeah, don't forget 1122 01:00:00,640 --> 01:00:02,040 our discount codes on the website as well. 1123 01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:05,640 So hopefully we'll see a lot of friendly faces at our different 1124 01:00:05,640 --> 01:00:08,200 conferences we'll be at. And yeah, that's it. 1125 01:00:08,200 --> 01:00:11,400 So thanks for watching and or listening and we'll talk with 1126 01:00:11,400 --> 01:00:16,240 you all in the next one. You've been listening to 1127 01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:20,160 Identity at the Center. We hope you've enjoyed the show. 1128 01:00:20,360 --> 01:00:24,480 Make sure to like, rate and review, and we'll be back soon. 1129 01:00:24,720 --> 01:00:27,000 But in the meantime, hit the website at 1130 01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:33,360 identity@thecenter.com. See you next time on Identity at 1131 01:00:33,360 --> 01:00:34,280 the Center.