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This is the identity at the 
center podcast. 

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This is a show that talks about 
identity and access management 

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and making sure you know who has
access to what? 

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Let's get started. 
Welcome to the identity of the 

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center podcast I'm Jeff and 
that's Jim. 

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Hey Jim hey Jeff, how's it 
going? 

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Not so bad yourself. 
Elf good man. 

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It's a sweatshirt weather. 
Which presents a challenge for 

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me? 
Because now I have a 16 year old

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in the house. 
He's getting bigger and stealing

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my clothes. 
And so, when I went through my, 

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my stock of shirts and long 
pants, I realized there were 

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many missing so we had a little 
talk and I got some of them back

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and yeah, I'm enjoying the crisp
whether they smell. 

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Okay, early, it's out of they 
smell when he got him back. 

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Yeah, they were there were find 
Irvine. 

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And you know I'm really excited 
about our guest today is 

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somebody had a chance to work 
with at a denture be few years 

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back is actually one of the 
people I really look forward to 

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working with you just somebody 
that had a lot of respect for 

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and a lot of you know just 
excitement to work with is kind 

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of a thought leader in our 
space. 

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So I think our listeners are in 
for a real treat today. 

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Yeah. 
And the biz, I think we call 

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this a good get right as 
professional podcasters that. 

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We are, why don't we go ahead 
and introduce them? 

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His name is Nishant. 
Kaushik. 

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He is a CTO at Yuna Kim. 
He's a former ident, ra p, 

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alumnus and all around identity 
Maven. 

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Welcome to the show and Sean. 
Thanks, thanks for having me. 

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Thanks for the kind words. 
Thanks for taking the time to 

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sit with us here. 
Virtually. 

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You know, I was trying to think 
about what our conversation 

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today was going to be about. 
We usually try to have kind of 

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like a theme and I'm looking 
over kind of like the notes and 

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kind of things that we were 
thinking about and it's really 

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today's Eames. 
We don't really have a theme 

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other than it's just a bunch of.
I am related topics and 

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questions for you and maybe hit 
towards the end, get to some 

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predictions since we're getting 
towards the end of the air and 

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that's kind of the hot thing, 
right? 

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Do predictions for the next 
year. 

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Hopefully, it would be better 
for all, but maybe we can get to

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that. 
But before we get to that, why 

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don't we start with you and your
background? 

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I'm curious as to, how did you 
get into I am? 

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Is it something that you chose 
or did it choose you? 

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I think it Would be fair to say 
that I fell into it, right? 

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So whether it shows me or not, I
don't know, it may be regretting

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those choices now but I 
definitely didn't set out to be 

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in. 
I am, I was basically this goes 

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all the way back to 2000 and I 
was at a startup that was About 

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to go kablooey. 
So I was looking in the market 

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looking for a job and found a 
senior developer posting for 

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start-up in downtown Manhattan 
that I applied to went and did 

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the interview and they had an 
office in the World, Trade 

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Center on the 87th floor, and my
reason for joining, besides the 

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cool cat, who interviewed me, 
who was British and A friend of 

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mine John, I seen besides that 
was the fact that on the 87th 

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floor. 
It was a really cool View and I 

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was like, hey, it was fun to 
work here. 

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So that's basically what let me 
do. 

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Join them and we were working on
active directory, and managing 

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active directory accounts. 
And, you know, like I said, 

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didn't really know. 
It was, I am in any way, shape, 

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or form for a long time. 
As we just started going through

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the Journey of working on the 
product and just continue 

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through that. 
And I think organically grown. 

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You into what any defeat has 
ended up being a long career in 

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the IND industry? 
The shock? 

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Could you maybe give us kind of,
some of the I'm really excited 

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because I think I know your 
background, right? 

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But I think for our listeners 
may be some of the companies you

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worked at along the way, 
including identity, which is 

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probably the greatest one say 
for eunuch in, okay? 

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But when you give us a little 
bit of a background of some of 

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the, the companies you work for 
maybe some of the things you did

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at those places. 
Sure so when I joined poor 

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Technologies which is the 
company I was referring to just 

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now we were basically building a
tool that started out with 

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active directory but essentially
became one of the main 

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provisioning products in the 
industry. 

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For a long time, we were 
competing against company. 

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You may have heard of called 
we've set and we had a really 

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strong rivalry against that. 
And so that was a good five 

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years of my life, build some 
really solid knowledge, they're 

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rising up through like they 
said, starting out as a senior 

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developer but then transitioning
to becoming product. 

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Architect as I led the building 
of the product from purely 

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provisioning to getting into 
things like access governance 

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at, you know, the start of what 
became is now known as identity 

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governance and building some of 
the recertification features and

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things like that. 
And that led us to achieving 

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some pretty good Market 
traction. 

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Did some good work with large 
financial institutions that 

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basically ended up with us 
getting acquired by Oracle in 

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2005. 
And so I then spent the next I 

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want to say seven years of my 
life, really getting into 

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identity management across all 
its Dimensions. 

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Looking at the whole portfolio 
of all the products that Oracle 

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had and then some because they 
acquired son, Of course, towards

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the end of my tenure, there will
be actually had two of every 

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product. 
And that was a big part of what 

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I was working on is how to 
reconcile the portfolio. 

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But, you know, towards my, the 
end of my tenure there, that was

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when there was a lot of interest
in the shift towards SAS and 

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what's a cement for identity, 
both from the perspective of how

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identity fits into the SAS 
Enterprise model, as well as 

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what it meant for us. 
In terms of delivering identity 

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as a sand and worked, a little 
bit on trying to come up with a 

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strategy for what that meant for
Oracle, which wasn't really 

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going anywhere. 
And that's when I was approached

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by our old colleagues Frank and 
Ranjit to join this little phone

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call I'd entropy that had this 
idea of, hey, there's we have 

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all these really good practices 
that we've deployed over and 

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over again in solving the 
identity management problem. 

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If he took those best practices 
and encapsulate that into SAS 

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product. 
And so that led me to joining. 

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I did pee and trying to build 
little, I'd a solution that you 

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know, we had a good ride. 
It was we were I think you were 

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on our way to building 
something, really interesting 

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and really good. 
But, you know, it wasn't to be 

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because we actually got snatched
up by CA Technologies and the 

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product became the basis for 
what would be their second 

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income, you know, second It 
version of an eye Dash product 

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that they tried to bring to 
Market. 

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So that led me to say it again, 
or you could let my tenure there

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wasn't nearly, as long as it was
at Oracle. 

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I lost it there a year before I 
jumped out to spend a little bit

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of time working on a Consulting 
on a Consulting basis while I 

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try to figure out what I want to
do next. 

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And then that's when I joined 
eunuch and where I am CTO right 

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now, running our G vision and 
product Direction. 

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The Sean has got to be a bit of 
validation for you that, you 

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know, I remember so many of the 
ideas that you had around all 

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the product being called squid 
life cycle. 

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When it was with identity, be 
that you and the team kind of 

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built from from the ground up, 
but kind of with the vision of 

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it, being a true software's 
identity as a as a service, you 

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know. 
Is a service offering an API 

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approach. 
It's got to be validating to 

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you. 
Now that you see that the market

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really is all about that today, 
right? 

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Oh, absolutely, I think you know
I think we had the right idea. 

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We definitely had the right 
approach, maybe it was just 

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timing or whatever you want to 
call it. 

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But you know, it definitely 
feels like we Were on the right 

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path and the market. 
As you said, has definitely 

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shifted towards that between the
growth of SAS between the 

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emergence of really usable 
strong standards in this space. 

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It really has helped us go 
beyond where we were back when 

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we started the project which was
yes, ass is great for identity. 

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If you're thinking about 
authentication, going anything 

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beyond that, you know, is it 
really a good idea and fast? 

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Vaulting was sort of state of 
the art. 

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And obviously, now we are way 
way beyond that and, you know, 

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you've got great companies in 
the space doing really well on 

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that front with driven by apis 
and standards. 

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Yeah. 
It's, I think you bought a 

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timing and I think, you know, 
there's always the idea of the 

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first mover Advantage being a 
great thing. 

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But if you're too early, That 
can also be a disadvantage. 

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And also I think when you're 
starting something up like that,

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maybe a little bit of luck would
help. 

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They always say in baseball 
better to be lucky than to be 

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good, right? 
No doubt about that. 

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Yeah. 
Yeah. 

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No doubt. 
So now your eunuch in your the 

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CTO there, can you tell us a 
little bit about what eunuch in 

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is what problem eunuch in the 
solving one of the challenges 

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that I saw in the identity 
industry through that entire 

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Journey. 
But I just Client was, we're 

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really good at understanding 
technology and how to, and 

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coming up with technology 
oriented Solutions. 

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But there's this disconnect 
between the great technology and

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standards that we come up with, 
and whether it's actually 

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solving the business problem 
that customers have I, but, you 

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know, 20 years later, we're 
still struggling with some of 

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the basics, right? 
Organizations are still 

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struggling with the basics. 
We still have passwords 

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provisioning is still a 
nightmare. 

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Governance is still a huge 
Challenge and integration. 

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Projects take forever. 
So that was, you know, a big 

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part of my learning over the 
over the over the course of the 

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years. 
And you know, I've started 

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veering towards looking for how 
can we simplify how can we make 

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things better? 
And one of the things that 

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attracted me to unicorn was that
rather than being very 

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technology or it was really 
focused on its mission 

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statement. 
Right, it's missions. 

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Our mission statement is that we
make connecting safe, simple and

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scalable for digital first 
businesses and it's a measure of

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mission statement. 
Around a purpose and as opposed 

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to a technology. 
And so that's really what 

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attracted me to join the 
company. 

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And when I joined the company, 
we had two really interesting 

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core piece of innovation that 
the original Founders said 

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created but it was narrow. 
And what we've seen over the 

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last few years, what we've been 
able to do is really expand and 

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enhance that poor to build the 
real ID security platform, which

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is our core product set. 
Its the, you know, it's a zero 

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trust security platform for the 
digital first business, and what

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that means is we really look at 
how to take businesses that are 

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consumer facing and help them 
create a secure interaction, 

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model, that allows insecure 
customer Journeys, and 

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engagements end-to-end across 
their omni-channel engagement. 

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With customers, right? 
So every business that is now 

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digital for digital. 
Every business is a digital 

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business at this point, right? 
And you have so many different 

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channels. 
You know, mobile is the 

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fastest-growing one, but where 
we still obviously the dominant,

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and you now have new channels, 
whether you still have the old 

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ones like the in-person channel,
you know, you know, still have 

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branches. 
Well, not in the age of Coburn, 

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maybe but you still have 
branches and stuff. 

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But you also now have new 
channels like the call center, 

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you have smart home assistance 
etcetera, As a digital business 

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you need to make sure all of 
those channels are available to 

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you know engage with your 
customers and you need them to 

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have consistent security across 
all of that, whether it's 

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security authentication. 
All those pieces need to be done

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in the same fashion and it needs
to be done with an idea on user 

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experience. 
And so that's really what we set

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out to solve is how can we 
provide a platform that enables 

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businesses to engage with 
customers safely and securely 

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across all their channels? 
And we That's what we've been 

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working on with that focus on 
delivering, Amazing Security 

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with a phenomenal customer 
experience. 

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So, with that customer 
experience. 

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I know you also are part of 
several different groups, that 

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kind of talk through inclusion 
and diversity and things like 

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that. 
Especially, I am space things 

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like women, and identity, and 
better identity Coalition. 

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Talk to me about both of those 
organizations. 

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What, what is actually your 
involvement with each of them? 

236
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Sure. 
So, There's so it's interesting 

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in terms of how we because like 
I said we're not Technologies at

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the center of our mission. 
Our mission is actually around 

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the customer. 
It's actually led us to all 

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these different aspects of 
identity, identity. 

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One of the reasons why I'm in a 
daily or maybe I stuck around 

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and identity is because it's 
such a fascinating space and 

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there's so many different facets
are aspects to, right? 

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So on the technology front, you 
know, you NE can is a member of 

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Fido Alliance so, you know, 
quite Alliance Y'all know. 

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00:14:32,500 --> 00:14:34,900
So I'm not going to spend too 
much time on that and I know I'm

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sure you've covered that in 
previous podcasts as well. 

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But there's other aspects to 
Identity that go beyond 

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technology. 
So one of that, one of those is 

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the fact that identity touches 
so many aspects of business that

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it needs to be designed for 
equity and inclusion. 

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And you can't design for equity 
and inclusion, unless the teams 

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that are building it themselves 
are designed with equity and 

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inclusion. 
So you need to have a diverse 

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set of individuals that are 
helping build digital identity 

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solutions for everybody and 
really that's what the mission 

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statement for women and identity
is women identity. 

258
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Basically is focused on multiple
initiatives that are sort of 

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targeted at making sure that the
digital identities 3. 

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Digital identity industry is 
more diverse, has a more diverse

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Workforce is able to bring in 
different people with different 

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Viewpoints that can therefore 
influence the technology, we 

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building to make sure that it 
caters to those different 

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individuals and diverse groups. 
So it's an ex and, you know, 

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amazing organization with an 
amazing leadership team. 

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They do a lot of really good 
work, whether it's highlighting 

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people, whether it's 
highlighting areas of identity 

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that we don't necessarily focus 
on or talk about too much. 

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They've been very vocal For 
example, on the topic of how, by

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Metrics has bias built into it 
and what we need to do as 

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technology vendors and 
practitioners to eliminate that 

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bias, because it has very real 
world consequences amongst other

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things, right? 
So they're really good at 

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highlighting these issues and 
you know, creating the 

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discussion that is needed. 
So we've been, you know, member 

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of the group since the very 
Inception when it was being 

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created at, I think The 
identifiers conference, the 

278
00:16:35,100 --> 00:16:36,900
founders were sitting and 
planning out what the 

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organization is going to look 
like. 

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And at unit, can we sponsored 
them? 

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Because we believe in that 
statement, right? 

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We add that eunuch and we are 
actually involved in projects 

283
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all across the world. 
Not only how do we have 

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implementations going on in the 
us, but we have it in Central 

285
00:16:54,300 --> 00:16:59,200
America, in Africa, southeast 
Asia, and the issues of equity 

286
00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:01,500
inclusion, Etc. 
Show up in many different 

287
00:17:01,500 --> 00:17:03,300
fashions. 
Ian's in those different 

288
00:17:03,300 --> 00:17:05,400
regions. 
So, this is a topic that's very 

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00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:07,800
important to us. 
Not just for me personally but 

290
00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:10,400
also from a corporate 
perspective, we care about that 

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00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:13,400
very much because we see the 
impact that has on our 

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00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,099
customers. 
That's very important topic and 

293
00:17:16,099 --> 00:17:18,200
it sounds like you guys are 
doing great work there. 

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We added a member of our team. 
She actually was on the podcast 

295
00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:28,600
with his last week, might have 
Gonzales somebody with 15 years 

296
00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:32,700
of experience in the space. 
And honestly, You know, we would

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00:17:32,700 --> 00:17:37,100
have hired hired her 
irregardless of, you know, the 

298
00:17:37,100 --> 00:17:40,800
inclusion angle because yours 
the best candidate qualified. 

299
00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:44,600
But one of the things I think is
important is for those kind of 

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00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:49,100
entry level positions to try to 
attract women into the, I am 

301
00:17:49,100 --> 00:17:51,700
industry. 
So, you know, I would encourage 

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00:17:51,700 --> 00:17:54,600
any of our listeners out there 
who are, you know, in those 

303
00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:58,800
positions where they can, you 
know, bring Talent into this 

304
00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,600
industry to give consideration 
to that. 

305
00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,800
I mean, You know, I got into 
identity and access management 

306
00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:09,700
back in 2003 definitely was a 
male-dominated industry. 

307
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Probably just some extent that's
true today as well. 

308
00:18:13,700 --> 00:18:22,500
I definitely seeing more women 
in the I am space since then but

309
00:18:22,500 --> 00:18:26,000
I think it's not something that 
you know we want to drop the 

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00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:30,700
ball on or not put a focus on 
yet today and into the future. 

311
00:18:31,100 --> 00:18:32,600
Absolutely. 
Evening. 

312
00:18:34,500 --> 00:18:37,600
And the other thing you the 
other organization you mentioned

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00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:42,000
was better, identical alishan. 
So, as I mentioned identity 

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00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,100
being multipass, has a better 
identity Coalition, looks at 

315
00:18:44,100 --> 00:18:47,900
identity from the policy and 
regulations and sort of 

316
00:18:47,900 --> 00:18:50,300
public-private partnership 
angle. 

317
00:18:50,300 --> 00:18:55,200
So the better identity Coalition
is sort of medicine initiative, 

318
00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:59,000
out of a non-profit. 
And the objective of the 

319
00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:01,500
membership is to actually 
influence policy makers. 

320
00:19:02,300 --> 00:19:04,300
It on the hill. 
It's very u.s. 

321
00:19:04,300 --> 00:19:07,400
Centric, though. 
It does look at things globally,

322
00:19:07,900 --> 00:19:12,900
but its focus is on the US 
market and its really focused on

323
00:19:12,900 --> 00:19:16,600
influencing policy initiatives 
that are happening. 

324
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:21,900
Because they understand, we 
understand that what happens in 

325
00:19:21,900 --> 00:19:27,700
identity influences, businesses 
of all nature, right? 

326
00:19:27,700 --> 00:19:30,500
Whether its Financial, whether 
it's health care, whether it's 

327
00:19:30,500 --> 00:19:33,600
government, like in terms of, 
Says that Citizens need from the

328
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:38,400
government identity is critical 
to all of that and it can't be 

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00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:42,800
done without policies being in 
place that help it. 

330
00:19:43,100 --> 00:19:45,500
So the bike ride any questions 
really focused on that. 

331
00:19:45,500 --> 00:19:48,700
You know public-private 
partnership aspect of it 

332
00:19:48,700 --> 00:19:52,600
influencing policy. 
For example they've been very 

333
00:19:53,100 --> 00:19:58,500
influential in one of in with 
engagement that has led to HR 8 

334
00:19:58,500 --> 00:20:02,900
to 15 which is a new bipartisan 
bill that has been In the house 

335
00:20:03,300 --> 00:20:07,000
by representative Bill Foster 
called, the improving, digital 

336
00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:09,800
identity Act of 2020. 
And its really focused on 

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00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:12,300
addressing shortcomings, in 
America's digital identity 

338
00:20:12,300 --> 00:20:16,600
Fabric, and creating better ways
for Americans to be able to do 

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00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:20,800
business securely online. 
I know that you and I are both 

340
00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:23,100
members of ID Pro, which is 
another, I am focused 

341
00:20:23,100 --> 00:20:27,600
organization, and you mentioned 
identify verse, I did you did do

342
00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:29,000
it. 
A identifiers talked earlier 

343
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,400
this year that was around 
Mission Impossible, which I 

344
00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,300
thought was great. 
Way I guess. 

345
00:20:34,300 --> 00:20:36,000
We're how do you see 
organizations? 

346
00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:42,400
Like I be Pro fitting into that 
kind of I guess the world of I 

347
00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:44,200
am organizations, right? 
There's women and identity, 

348
00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:46,500
there's better yet, better 
identity Coalition, there's ID 

349
00:20:46,500 --> 00:20:49,400
Pro. 
There is no fight Alliance and 

350
00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:55,800
seems like there is some sort of
group or Coalition, or whatever.

351
00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:59,100
It may, be four very different 
areas of I am. 

352
00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:03,400
And that there's a lot of It 
easy for people to kind of pick 

353
00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,000
and choose, maybe even specific 
or multiple groups that they 

354
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:07,900
would like to contribute to. 
Absolutely. 

355
00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:10,600
So yeah. 
So I've been a member of ID Pro 

356
00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:14,100
since the beginning as well. 
Don't really have a choice. 

357
00:21:14,100 --> 00:21:16,700
I think Ian was onstage. 
Staying straight at me saying 

358
00:21:16,700 --> 00:21:23,300
you need to sign up and I was 
like, okay, so goes back to the 

359
00:21:23,300 --> 00:21:26,200
origin stories, right? 
Like we as we, you know, as it 

360
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:28,300
sounds like you ask everybody 
about their origin story and 

361
00:21:28,300 --> 00:21:31,300
it's kind of the same, right? 
We all know buddy, set out to be

362
00:21:31,300 --> 00:21:33,400
in. 
I am All kind of fell into. 

363
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:36,600
I am in some way, shape, or form
or got drawn into I am from 

364
00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:41,300
sideways sideways. 
And that's because I identity is

365
00:21:41,300 --> 00:21:43,700
not something that people set 
out to be. 

366
00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:49,100
Unlike other pillars, like 
security, like privacy identity 

367
00:21:49,100 --> 00:21:51,400
has lacked that professional 
aspect of it. 

368
00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:56,800
And that leads that is hand in 
had time to how the industry 

369
00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:00,200
will evolve, right? 
We talked about the lack of 

370
00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:03,700
talent or the lack of focus, 
Most of the folks in the 

371
00:22:03,700 --> 00:22:07,800
industry learned about identity 
by working on a product by being

372
00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:09,000
professional and Technical 
product. 

373
00:22:09,300 --> 00:22:12,300
Like, I mentioned mine was, I 
had to learn how to integrate 

374
00:22:12,300 --> 00:22:15,500
and manage active directory so 
it was very focused on active 

375
00:22:15,500 --> 00:22:19,000
directory and Microsoft 
Technologies and it's just 

376
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:22,500
through the building of our 
product that I started to get 

377
00:22:22,500 --> 00:22:25,600
exposed to more and more and 
sort of grew my knowledge over 

378
00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,500
time and it grew organically 
which is great. 

379
00:22:28,500 --> 00:22:34,700
I mean it's your folded me a lot
of Amazing opportunities in my 

380
00:22:34,700 --> 00:22:39,800
life but it takes a long time to
feel like, you know, what you're

381
00:22:39,808 --> 00:22:40,800
doing. 
And you know what you're talking

382
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:42,200
about. 
It actually then start making a 

383
00:22:42,208 --> 00:22:46,600
difference and given how 
important identity is we just 

384
00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:50,600
can't afford that kind of lag in
development of talent. 

385
00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:53,500
And that's what I recall is 
trying to address, right? 

386
00:22:53,500 --> 00:22:59,900
So, like I said, you know, it's 
its identity at the center as 

387
00:22:59,900 --> 00:23:04,500
your podcast is called, you 
know, Means that it there's it 

388
00:23:04,500 --> 00:23:07,000
has a 360-degree view that you 
have to care about. 

389
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:10,100
So whether it's people, whether 
its policy, whether its 

390
00:23:10,100 --> 00:23:12,900
technology, all of those aspects
need to be addressed. 

391
00:23:12,900 --> 00:23:16,100
And as you said, there's an 
organization for what? 

392
00:23:16,100 --> 00:23:18,800
Each one of those many 
organizations for each one of 

393
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:20,800
those. 
So it can be a little bit, it 

394
00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:24,500
can be a little bit on thing and
we're going to have Ian on here 

395
00:23:24,500 --> 00:23:26,400
and I'll come and show hopefully
the next few weeks. 

396
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,500
So I don't want to spoil his 
Thunder but Ida Pro recently did

397
00:23:29,500 --> 00:23:33,500
a skill survey and you know, Of 
the questions that gets asked. 

398
00:23:33,500 --> 00:23:36,900
And that is, how long did it 
take before? 

399
00:23:37,900 --> 00:23:41,900
You felt proficient in? 
I am, I think, the most common 

400
00:23:41,900 --> 00:23:44,900
answer was somewhere between 
like, I think it was 5 and 10, 

401
00:23:44,900 --> 00:23:49,200
or maybe it's 10 and 15 years. 
But there was, it was, when I 

402
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,000
say common answer really wasn't 
that much different than other 

403
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:53,500
answers to. 
So I think there's a lot of 

404
00:23:53,500 --> 00:23:55,500
discrepancy and variation 
between. 

405
00:23:55,900 --> 00:23:59,100
Well, what is, what is cot, you 
know, comfortable mean from an I

406
00:23:59,108 --> 00:24:02,000
am perspective, I feel good on 
an Ops perspective. 

407
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:03,500
That's how I grew up. 
It's funny. 

408
00:24:03,500 --> 00:24:08,200
I had an opposite experiences 
gym when I joined I am kind of 

409
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:10,500
officially for the first time I 
joined a group of ID 

410
00:24:10,500 --> 00:24:12,600
administrators and I was the 
only guy on the team. 

411
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:14,400
It was all it was all women on 
the team. 

412
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:18,800
So I learned, you know, I am 
from from those folks and kind 

413
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:20,800
of grew up on the operation 
side. 

414
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:22,800
So that's where I'm most 
comfortable and I would say, 

415
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:26,200
still am because that's worth 
had the most experience in you 

416
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:28,800
start branching out and you 
realize that I am as so many 

417
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:32,900
other facets to it, that are 
both Technical and On Technical.

418
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,800
And it can take a quite a while 
before you get the exposure to 

419
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:39,100
all of that. 
Where, you know, now I feel 

420
00:24:39,100 --> 00:24:41,400
like, okay, yeah, I've got a, 
I've got a pretty good handle 

421
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:44,800
and I am stuff but there's 
always something new to learn, 

422
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:46,600
right? 
There's some new technology, 

423
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:51,800
some new framework, or some 
other thing, right? 

424
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,700
The kind of comes along, and 
it's like, okay, let's think 

425
00:24:54,700 --> 00:24:57,600
let's rethink this and think 
about how this should work going

426
00:24:57,600 --> 00:24:59,900
forward. 
And, and, you know, put the past

427
00:24:59,900 --> 00:25:02,000
behind us and how should it work
versus well? 

428
00:25:02,100 --> 00:25:04,500
It's just the way we've always 
done and that's one of the 

429
00:25:04,500 --> 00:25:06,000
things that I thought was 
interesting about your 

430
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:09,200
identifiers talk. 
It was themed Around Mission 

431
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:13,200
Impossible and one of the things
that I pulled out of it was you 

432
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:17,000
had a statement around 
Biometrics as convenience versus

433
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,200
security and I thought that was 
only interested in maybe in kind

434
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,200
of summarize and tease it 
because I'm going to have a link

435
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:24,900
to that in our show notes Here 
for people to check out. 

436
00:25:24,900 --> 00:25:27,000
But make, I talk about what you 
meant by that real briefly. 

437
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:31,600
Sure. 
So the reason so that mission 

438
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:35,700
impossible, The PM that allows 
me to inject some humor and some

439
00:25:35,700 --> 00:25:41,000
sort of Interest into the talk, 
but they the actual objective of

440
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:45,000
my talk was to actually address 
some of the myths that exist in 

441
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,200
identity management. 
Some common myths that exist and

442
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,800
it was really born out of my 
frustration from having been, 

443
00:25:51,900 --> 00:25:54,900
like I said, in trying to solve 
problems for businesses, 

444
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,400
constantly running up against 
the brick wall of these nets and

445
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,900
how they really skew the 
discussion or prevent 

446
00:26:00,900 --> 00:26:05,100
organizations from Doing the 
right thing in many cases and 

447
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:09,100
one of the one of those is 
there's a lot of myths and 

448
00:26:09,100 --> 00:26:12,700
Biometrics right and how they 
fit into the equation. 

449
00:26:12,700 --> 00:26:18,400
And the common thing that you 
would hear over and over again, 

450
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:23,000
is Biometrics are not good for 
security and they are, but 

451
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,400
they're a good convenience 
factor and it's really rooted in

452
00:26:25,408 --> 00:26:32,000
this idea that Biometrics are 
being, you know, being used to 

453
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,400
make it easy for users to login 
so that they don't have to type 

454
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:40,400
in a password on a in a in a 
poor the not if having to type 

455
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,900
the password passcode into their
device and the biometric is 

456
00:26:43,900 --> 00:26:47,400
easy. 
And for sure, it is from a user 

457
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:49,500
experience perspective really 
useful. 

458
00:26:49,500 --> 00:26:53,400
Because the data backs that up, 
right before the introduction of

459
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,700
things like touch ID and Android
fingerprints. 

460
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:01,500
The number of devices on which 
Pascal was enabled was really 

461
00:27:01,500 --> 00:27:07,800
low and it tripled after Touch 
ID, and enter fingerprint were 

462
00:27:07,900 --> 00:27:11,400
introduced simply because users 
were sick and tired of having to

463
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:13,800
type their pass codes in all the
time. 

464
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:17,700
And it just make became a super 
easy experience for them. 

465
00:27:18,300 --> 00:27:20,800
But that led to this idea that 
is about convenience and 

466
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:25,100
security aspects of it are 
weaker and what I'm trying to 

467
00:27:25,100 --> 00:27:29,600
address in the talk. 
Is no, you have to understand 

468
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:31,600
what the security 
characteristics of Biometrics 

469
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:35,400
are apply them properly and if 
you apply them properly, they 

470
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,500
actually are better for security
in. 

471
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,300
You just have to make sure that 
it fits into your overall threat

472
00:27:41,300 --> 00:27:43,400
models and, and things like 
that. 

473
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:48,500
So having that's one of the 
reasons why if you look at what 

474
00:27:48,500 --> 00:27:51,800
Fido has done in their work, 
Fido leverages on device 

475
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,500
Biometrics significantly as part
of its recommendations not 

476
00:27:55,500 --> 00:27:58,900
required. 
Obviously, You can use a yubikey

477
00:27:58,900 --> 00:28:01,300
and yubikey, even though your 
bikini just came up with the 

478
00:28:01,300 --> 00:28:04,200
biometric reader on their 
yubikey, you Vicki doesn't 

479
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,900
require a biometric. 
So it's not like Biometrics is a

480
00:28:07,900 --> 00:28:11,700
required part of fight, the 
fight of protocol but every 

481
00:28:11,900 --> 00:28:15,000
everything you see and hear from
the five Alliance, they talk 

482
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:21,200
about the significant benefit of
using on device Biometrics. 

483
00:28:21,300 --> 00:28:27,500
And so I think that fighting 
that misconception, Is pretty 

484
00:28:27,500 --> 00:28:31,000
critical. 
As we start looking at, how can 

485
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,700
we make the landscape of 
security and authentication 

486
00:28:34,700 --> 00:28:38,500
better not introduced passwords 
their passwords and not existed 

487
00:28:38,500 --> 00:28:40,300
before? 
Get rid of pastures, where 

488
00:28:40,300 --> 00:28:44,800
passwords are in existential 
threat and issue to the security

489
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:48,900
officers services today. 
Biometrics can be hugely helpful

490
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:50,400
but it has to be done the right 
way. 

491
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:54,200
And unless you, even unless you 
start looking at the security 

492
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,900
aspects of it, you're not going 
to know how to deploy the right 

493
00:28:56,900 --> 00:29:00,000
way. 
So does Sean on the on the Fido 

494
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,000
topic? 
I did want to point out that we 

495
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:06,800
had on episode number 56 for 
anybody who's interested and 

496
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,700
Russia key are who's the 
executive director for Fido. 

497
00:29:09,700 --> 00:29:14,300
So you want to go back and kind 
of learn more about 50 and kind 

498
00:29:14,300 --> 00:29:18,100
of what they're all about. 
That's an excellent way to do 

499
00:29:18,100 --> 00:29:20,500
it. 
I think we'd be remiss though. 

500
00:29:20,500 --> 00:29:25,200
In a while we have you here to 
not bring up the topic of the 

501
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:29,200
pandemic and how it's change 
life for all of us and in some 

502
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,000
ways, created New Opportunities.
I mean one of the greatest 

503
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,200
opportunities for me is a lot 
less Hotel. 

504
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,900
Nice. 
This is this year but it's also 

505
00:29:37,900 --> 00:29:39,700
created opportunities for the 
bad guys. 

506
00:29:39,700 --> 00:29:43,600
You know, it's commit fraud and 
I'm wondering, you know, kind of

507
00:29:43,700 --> 00:29:45,700
with your work. 
What are you seeing as some of 

508
00:29:45,700 --> 00:29:50,500
the things that have opened up 
or the fraud that has gotten 

509
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:54,700
potentially worse given the 
current situation? 

510
00:29:55,000 --> 00:30:00,700
Sure, it's Pretty obvious. 
I think if you were to start 

511
00:30:00,700 --> 00:30:04,000
looking around, you'll see the 
data that. 

512
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:10,000
What the shut, what covid 
resulted in with the increased 

513
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,400
work from home. 
Environment is sort of an 

514
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:17,700
escalation of attacks that 
already existed, but basically 

515
00:30:17,700 --> 00:30:20,200
got suped up and went into turbo
mode, right? 

516
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:26,300
So if the shift of employees 
going from in office to working 

517
00:30:26,300 --> 00:30:33,000
from home, I meant that the Lacs
security practices that were in 

518
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:36,200
place. 
Kind of got exposed the attack 

519
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:37,700
surface basically got increased,
right? 

520
00:30:37,700 --> 00:30:41,800
You had way more people that are
now available for you to 

521
00:30:41,900 --> 00:30:45,500
leverage as an attacker as part 
of your campaign, right? 

522
00:30:45,500 --> 00:30:50,200
So if you look at, for example, 
whether it's fishing or wishing 

523
00:30:50,300 --> 00:30:55,100
or which is voice phishing 
campaigns those increased 

524
00:30:55,100 --> 00:31:00,000
dramatically after, The increase
in remote remote work and the 

525
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,500
reason for that is, you know, 
had a lot had a larger 

526
00:31:03,500 --> 00:31:07,700
population of users that you 
could try to trick into 

527
00:31:07,700 --> 00:31:13,000
divulging passwords and system. 
Access and fishing is a numbers 

528
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:15,700
game, right? 
It's the more people you can try

529
00:31:15,700 --> 00:31:17,800
to attack. 
There's a certain percentage 

530
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:20,000
that are going to fall fall fall
for it. 

531
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,200
So the more number of people you
have that you can attack the 

532
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:28,700
higher the chances of getting in
and the Shift to work from home,

533
00:31:28,700 --> 00:31:33,100
really expose that and it really
exposed how our sort of security

534
00:31:33,100 --> 00:31:35,300
models were not designed for it,
right? 

535
00:31:35,300 --> 00:31:40,600
We had models that were designed
for a 30% work from home. 

536
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:45,400
Work force, working remotely, 
but when shifted from, 30% to 

537
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:49,700
95% all of a sudden, those 
security models didn't work you 

538
00:31:49,700 --> 00:31:55,600
now had Organizations. 
Having to deal with employees 

539
00:31:55,600 --> 00:32:00,200
that were working from home on 
their personal computers on 

540
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:06,300
their home, unsecured and open 
wi-fi with other devices from 

541
00:32:06,500 --> 00:32:09,700
in, from their family members on
the same Wi-Fi. 

542
00:32:10,100 --> 00:32:14,300
And so the security model that 
organizations had completely 

543
00:32:14,300 --> 00:32:20,700
falls apart and you're exposed 
and it just really has resulted 

544
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:27,800
in Dramatic increase in phishing
attacks voice phishing attacks. 

545
00:32:28,100 --> 00:32:30,900
We saw this TV show The Voice 
spear phishing campaign. 

546
00:32:30,900 --> 00:32:34,900
That actually resulted in all 
those high profile, all those 

547
00:32:34,900 --> 00:32:38,300
high profile, Twitter accounts, 
all of a sudden promoting 

548
00:32:38,300 --> 00:32:40,600
Bitcoin. 
That was the result of a voice 

549
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,600
phishing attack on Twitter 
employees that had that were 

550
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,100
working from home and had 
sensitive credentials include 

551
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:48,200
sensitive access to internal 
systems. 

552
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:54,300
We've seen the impact Tan 
Citizen Services, right? 

553
00:32:54,300 --> 00:33:00,500
So for example, we saw with 
unemployment benefits not being 

554
00:33:00,500 --> 00:33:03,700
ready for the huge, number of 
claims that we're going to get 

555
00:33:03,700 --> 00:33:06,600
filed. 
We've seen a large number of 

556
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:12,900
fraud cases, against the system.
I think Illinois reported that 

557
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:17,400
they had more than 120, 1,000 
instances of unemployment fraud,

558
00:33:17,500 --> 00:33:21,500
because the benefit system 
wasn't designed to do proper 

559
00:33:21,500 --> 00:33:24,200
identity proofing. 
And so on. 

560
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:28,000
So it did, it's exposing the 
weaknesses in our end-to-end 

561
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,900
security model, whether it's 
identity proofing, whether it's 

562
00:33:30,900 --> 00:33:36,300
strong authentication, whether 
it's channel security, this is 

563
00:33:36,500 --> 00:33:39,400
this is at the core of what I 
was talking about, in our zero 

564
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,900
trust model. 
Where we look at not just we're 

565
00:33:42,900 --> 00:33:44,700
not just looking a strong 
authentication, but we actually 

566
00:33:44,700 --> 00:33:47,400
combined strong authentication 
with things like network 

567
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:51,400
security and channel security, 
device, security posture. 

568
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:55,700
And Identity, proofing, and 
verification for onboarding. 

569
00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:00,400
Those things have to be put 
together into a single security 

570
00:34:00,500 --> 00:34:03,800
platform in order for you to get
that defense and back necessary 

571
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:07,500
to attack to protect against 
this new threat model new attack

572
00:34:07,500 --> 00:34:09,500
surface environment that 
organizations are dealing with. 

573
00:34:09,699 --> 00:34:13,900
So Sean one thing that I want to
just throw out there like you've

574
00:34:13,900 --> 00:34:18,100
been in this industry. 
Now I think for like the full 

575
00:34:18,100 --> 00:34:21,600
cycle of what the industry is 
really from starting with or 

576
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:27,300
going to Circle back into the 
Consulting space, or I think 

577
00:34:27,300 --> 00:34:29,400
you're more on the product 
development space, but then 

578
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:33,500
going to see a, you've kind of 
seen the all the different 

579
00:34:33,500 --> 00:34:36,900
vendors come onto the magic 
quadrant, if you will. 

580
00:34:36,900 --> 00:34:41,199
And and some of them move down 
to less relevance, and what I'm 

581
00:34:41,199 --> 00:34:46,100
getting at is, you know, 
primarily at one point in the 

582
00:34:46,100 --> 00:34:50,800
game it was like see a Oracle 
and IBM were the most relevant 

583
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:56,000
and kind of the the only options
for large Enterprises in terms 

584
00:34:56,000 --> 00:35:01,200
of I am they've lost a lot of 
relevance to these days and 

585
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:05,700
other companies have had the 
opportunity to kind of eat their

586
00:35:05,700 --> 00:35:08,700
lunch. 
I wonder if you agree with that 

587
00:35:08,700 --> 00:35:12,100
statement and kind of what are 
the trends that you think. 

588
00:35:13,500 --> 00:35:16,200
LED that to happen. 
I mean first off I want to throw

589
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:20,900
out there that I think I am is 
just an industry that gives 

590
00:35:20,900 --> 00:35:26,300
opportunities for startups with 
great ideas to you know blow up 

591
00:35:26,300 --> 00:35:29,600
and become relevant. 
Even not overnight but 

592
00:35:29,900 --> 00:35:35,000
definitely within a short period
of time and it puts some of the 

593
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,600
larger players that are 
disadvantaged if they're not 

594
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:41,600
kind of staying on that Cutting 
Edge and if they're their 

595
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:45,800
strategy is just to Kind of 
acquire their way to relevance. 

596
00:35:46,700 --> 00:35:49,900
I think they have a harder push 
but, you know, putting that out 

597
00:35:49,900 --> 00:35:52,100
there. 
I wonder how much of that you 

598
00:35:52,100 --> 00:35:57,000
agree with and kind of what do 
you think led to what I'll call.

599
00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:01,600
I'll use the term the kind of 
the demise of Oracle and see a 

600
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:03,200
as kind of being the most 
relevant. 

601
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,100
I am players, I think it's 
called. 

602
00:36:06,100 --> 00:36:08,700
It's what you described that I 
am. 

603
00:36:08,700 --> 00:36:13,000
Is such a constantly evolving 
space. 

604
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:16,400
That unless you're staying on 
top of it, you're being agile, 

605
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:19,400
you being Nimble and you're in 
continuously investing and 

606
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:22,900
innovating, and building your 
Solutions. 

607
00:36:23,500 --> 00:36:29,300
You are going to fall behind 
because the solution identity is

608
00:36:29,300 --> 00:36:33,400
so critical to organizations 
today. 

609
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:36,400
Whether it's from a security 
perspective, whether it's from a

610
00:36:36,408 --> 00:36:38,700
compliance perspective, whether 
it's from a customer experience 

611
00:36:38,700 --> 00:36:42,900
was like that that you just 
cannot afford to have sub. 

612
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:47,300
Our identity practices and 
technology in your portfolio. 

613
00:36:47,300 --> 00:36:54,500
So organizations so vendors that
have not focused on identity and

614
00:36:54,500 --> 00:36:58,600
continue to invest in involving 
it with the times, you run the 

615
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:03,200
risk of you know, the technology
becoming stale and therefore it 

616
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:07,600
relevant to many organizations. 
And I think That's one of the 

617
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:09,600
things that I think happened 
with some of the larger 

618
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:13,800
organizations is that identity 
wasn't core to what they want to

619
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:15,100
do. 
They had different centers of 

620
00:37:15,100 --> 00:37:19,900
gravity that made them make 
certain choices that in the 

621
00:37:19,900 --> 00:37:21,200
large scheme of things for 
women. 

622
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:23,700
Organization's perspective may 
not have been the wrong thing, 

623
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:27,100
but specifically for the ride, I
do business in the sense that it

624
00:37:27,100 --> 00:37:29,800
wasn't necessarily the right 
thing to keep them competitive 

625
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:35,900
in the market and open the 
opened opened and opportunity. 

626
00:37:36,100 --> 00:37:41,200
The four other vendors to come 
in and be more Innovative be 

627
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:45,000
more agile and also take 
advantage of New Frontiers that 

628
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:46,900
were opening up that the old 
technology wasn't ready for 

629
00:37:46,900 --> 00:37:49,100
whether it's the emergence of 
SAS. 

630
00:37:49,100 --> 00:37:54,400
Well, as the emergence of API 
based methodology as opposed to 

631
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:59,600
UI based methodology is that 
it's whether it's the, the 

632
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:06,000
arrival of standards that could 
actually be deployed in a 

633
00:38:06,100 --> 00:38:10,300
Practical fashion and had gone 
through the ringer of going from

634
00:38:10,300 --> 00:38:15,000
being theoretical and academic 
to becoming more practical and 

635
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:20,900
realistic in actual production. 
Deployments I think I am 

636
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:27,000
identity as an industry moves so
fast and involves so much that 

637
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,600
it requires a lot of care and 
attention. 

638
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:33,200
So unless as a vendor you're 
doing that, you're not going to 

639
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:34,700
be able to keep up with the 
evolution. 

640
00:38:34,900 --> 00:38:40,400
Do I think what Under that 
deserves to be highlighted here 

641
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:41,500
as Microsoft. 
Right? 

642
00:38:41,500 --> 00:38:45,600
Microsoft has been the 
technology giant since we've 

643
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:53,400
been in it and they never really
were the much of an I am. 

644
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:56,800
Vendor, if you will, they always
had active directory, but they 

645
00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:01,500
never really got into the access
management space and they had 

646
00:39:01,500 --> 00:39:05,100
some offerings, but they're 
never kind of leaders. 

647
00:39:06,500 --> 00:39:11,100
But boy oh boy, I think at this 
point they put themselves in the

648
00:39:11,100 --> 00:39:15,000
pole position where I think what
I hear a lot of people say and I

649
00:39:15,008 --> 00:39:18,800
agree with this comment is if 
they want to go after your space

650
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:22,600
watch out they'll take it over 
and I think a couple things 

651
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:24,900
happened right? 
I think they made the the shift 

652
00:39:24,900 --> 00:39:30,900
to the cloud Office 365 which 
had massive adoption and then 

653
00:39:30,900 --> 00:39:34,400
they bundle of allowed there. 
I am services in with that 

654
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:39,400
offering which Really position 
them well for customer adoption 

655
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:43,600
but also you know from a product
offering perspective they made 

656
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,600
the shift toward open standard 
so now you have a cloud base 

657
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:50,400
open standard that you're more 
or less giving the product to 

658
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:55,200
the customers who are buying 
other services and they fit 

659
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:58,900
right in with those services. 
But then also support, open 

660
00:39:58,900 --> 00:40:00,800
standard. 
So you have the, The Wider 

661
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:05,700
connectivity. 
I just feel like they probably 

662
00:40:05,700 --> 00:40:09,100
have done. 
Best job in terms of, you know, 

663
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:12,200
going from irrelevance to 
relevance especially considering

664
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:15,900
their large Enterprise it 
provider. 

665
00:40:16,100 --> 00:40:20,400
Yeah, I mean, it's it's not just
what you mentioned but it's also

666
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:23,400
the fact that they made the 
investment, they recognize the 

667
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:26,900
importance of identity and they 
made the investment. 

668
00:40:26,900 --> 00:40:30,400
Both in terms of bringing 
absolute rock stars to their 

669
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:36,000
team, folks like them dingo, if 
you if you care about metrics, 

670
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:38,900
And what is happening in the 
real world regarding at 

671
00:40:38,900 --> 00:40:40,500
Microsoft, you need to follow 
Alex, why? 

672
00:40:40,500 --> 00:40:42,500
Not? 
Because he regularly publishes 

673
00:40:43,300 --> 00:40:46,600
them the amount of data that 
Microsoft sees in Azure from a 

674
00:40:46,607 --> 00:40:49,800
Leonard, every perspective is 
staggering and so what he can 

675
00:40:50,300 --> 00:40:53,200
teach you about, what's 
happening in the real world 

676
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:56,000
respected threats at events 
activities that you need to be 

677
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:59,200
aware of is mind-boggling and 
they're being very open about 

678
00:40:59,200 --> 00:40:59,900
it. 
That's the other thing that 

679
00:40:59,900 --> 00:41:01,600
they're giving back to the 
community. 

680
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:04,600
So I think the investment in the
technology, the investment in 

681
00:41:04,607 --> 00:41:07,000
standards. 
The investment in people, Making

682
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:10,200
identity of focus area as part 
of a xerocon Services. 

683
00:41:10,900 --> 00:41:13,900
It's that's it's because they 
understood the importance of 

684
00:41:13,900 --> 00:41:16,600
identity and invest in. 
If that's what's allowed them to

685
00:41:17,500 --> 00:41:21,200
be, sort of go from where they 
were, which is yeah, they're 

686
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:23,800
always. 
There Haiti was always there. 

687
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:28,800
But this has been positioned at 
the center of, you know what's 

688
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:32,300
going on with SAS and identity 
within SAS with what they're 

689
00:41:32,300 --> 00:41:35,900
doing with those your because 
when a big change, you know when

690
00:41:35,900 --> 00:41:39,000
they Brought in Saudi and out 
Nadella you know, to head things

691
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:41,500
up. 
You started to see the shift and

692
00:41:41,500 --> 00:41:44,700
it took them a little while to 
make changes to the organization

693
00:41:44,700 --> 00:41:48,900
and where they wanted to be. 
And sometimes I think it put 

694
00:41:48,900 --> 00:41:51,600
organizations that a 
disadvantage, we're from an 

695
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:52,800
axle. 
It's let's take access 

696
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:56,300
management. 
For example, you know Azure ad 

697
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,200
wasn't all that great for a 
couple of years because it took 

698
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:02,300
them some time to get it up and 
running and kind of where they 

699
00:42:02,300 --> 00:42:04,700
wanted it to be. 
So if you look at, you know, 

700
00:42:04,700 --> 00:42:07,500
previous Gartner magic quadrant 
Since which are not the end, all

701
00:42:07,500 --> 00:42:09,700
be all, but you know, an 
industry Benchmark of kind of 

702
00:42:09,707 --> 00:42:12,200
where things are at, you know, 
they were not a leader. 

703
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,800
And for a couple years, I think 
they maybe even dropped off and 

704
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:19,100
then bang the most recent one. 
Now, they're not there in the 

705
00:42:19,100 --> 00:42:21,300
top position, you know, part of 
that probably has to do with 

706
00:42:21,300 --> 00:42:23,600
their installed base and having 
such a massive footprint is 

707
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:27,200
Office 365, but I give them a 
lot of credit for making the 

708
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:30,800
pivot of the cloud and being 
available and being seen as more

709
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:33,100
than just, you know, Windows, 
right? 

710
00:42:33,100 --> 00:42:37,200
It's officer 65, it's Azure. 
It's SAS Services. 

711
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:41,900
Its, you know, Max not being a 
second-class citizen compared to

712
00:42:41,900 --> 00:42:44,300
Windows counterpart on services 
and things like that. 

713
00:42:44,300 --> 00:42:47,000
So is a perfect, no. 
You know, but I think they've 

714
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:51,500
done a really good job of kind 
of pivoting into being more of a

715
00:42:51,500 --> 00:42:54,100
services company, and you're 
starting to see apple to do that

716
00:42:54,100 --> 00:42:56,300
as well, to some extent with 
their, you know, their iCloud 

717
00:42:56,300 --> 00:43:01,300
and other other features and 
functionality where that's 

718
00:43:01,300 --> 00:43:03,300
really where they're kind of 
pitting their businesses to be 

719
00:43:03,300 --> 00:43:06,000
more services and less dependent
on. 

720
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:09,500
You know some of the Legacy 
stuff like Windows it'll still 

721
00:43:09,500 --> 00:43:13,500
be a big thing always. 
But you know having services 

722
00:43:13,500 --> 00:43:16,900
available I think is a much a 
much bigger Revenue generator 

723
00:43:16,900 --> 00:43:19,100
for them over time. 
Yeah. 

724
00:43:19,100 --> 00:43:23,100
It's Jim earlier in the 
discussions, mentioned that 

725
00:43:23,100 --> 00:43:24,500
sometimes you need a little 
luck. 

726
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:26,700
In the case of Microsoft, they 
didn't need the luck. 

727
00:43:26,700 --> 00:43:28,500
They were big enough and they 
had the base. 

728
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:31,100
What they needed was to keep the
faith and they kept the faith, 

729
00:43:31,100 --> 00:43:33,900
right? 
So it being continuing to 

730
00:43:33,900 --> 00:43:36,100
recognize the importance of 
identity and Keeping the Faith. 

731
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:39,100
Faith that the plan was going to
pan out. 

732
00:43:39,100 --> 00:43:41,600
Allow them to get through that 
rough patch and come out on the 

733
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:44,700
other end stronger which is 
something that not all big 

734
00:43:44,700 --> 00:43:47,200
organizations are able to do. 
I can tell you that from 

735
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:50,100
experience a lot of money 
solves, a lot of problems. 

736
00:43:51,100 --> 00:43:59,000
A lot of patients especially if 
you know you've got to support 

737
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:01,000
the movement and understand 
there will be some short-term 

738
00:44:01,300 --> 00:44:04,000
some pain to get to the end. 
But yeah, absolutely. 

739
00:44:06,300 --> 00:44:07,700
Shot. 
You been you know really just 

740
00:44:07,700 --> 00:44:10,800
the timing know we're coming up 
kind of close to here too when I

741
00:44:10,808 --> 00:44:13,800
get things wrapped up. 
But before we do that, you know,

742
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:19,200
it is end of 2020. 
Hopefully and one of the things 

743
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:22,100
that I want to touch on are some
of the predictions may be around

744
00:44:22,100 --> 00:44:24,900
some of the things for 2021 and 
kind of want to go through kind 

745
00:44:24,900 --> 00:44:28,400
of like a rapid-fire list of 
things and making give me your 

746
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:30,800
quick thoughts on a few 
different things. 

747
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:33,600
How does that sound? 
Sure, I hate the prediction 

748
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:35,000
game. 
Honestly, it's one of those 

749
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:37,700
things where I'm like, I hope 
hope nobody goes that reads my 

750
00:44:37,700 --> 00:44:42,400
old blog post because oh man, I 
made some really bad predictions

751
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:45,400
in the past. 
So I stopped doing it every 

752
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:46,300
year. 
Somebody would come to me and 

753
00:44:46,300 --> 00:44:48,600
say, hey are you writing a 
prediction blog post this year 

754
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:50,900
and eventually somebody's like 
no I'm not doing that anymore. 

755
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:53,700
Well don't worry. 
This is only going to be on the 

756
00:44:53,700 --> 00:44:57,500
internet forever so it's all 
right but just imagine if you 

757
00:44:57,500 --> 00:45:02,000
get it right right? 
How much of a prognosticator 

758
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:04,800
you'll end up being the 
Nostradamus of I am I think is a

759
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:06,100
good title to add. 
Yeah. 

760
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:07,800
All right, let me go through my 
list here. 

761
00:45:08,500 --> 00:45:10,800
How will covid affect the way 
people think? 

762
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:15,600
Kate, are, we going to see less 
physical event ocation versus 

763
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:18,300
maybe something Wireless. 
You know, trying to avoid 

764
00:45:18,300 --> 00:45:22,000
touching payment terminals, for 
example, using more Apple pay 

765
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:25,000
and Google pay and Samsung pay 
things like that or other types 

766
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:27,700
of Plyometrics, maybe visual, 
you know things like that. 

767
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:30,900
How do you see covid effect in 
the way people have found a Kate

768
00:45:30,900 --> 00:45:35,900
in 2021. 
So I think 2021 is going to show

769
00:45:35,908 --> 00:45:38,600
and Specially in payments 
contactless payments obviously 

770
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:41,200
your we were already down that 
part but this is the going to 

771
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:44,800
Turbo charge it, for sure. 
And you're going to see the big 

772
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:47,300
players really focus on that as 
well. 

773
00:45:47,500 --> 00:45:52,600
I think authentication itself 
we're gonna see authentication 

774
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:56,500
continue the path is on right 
now which is an ink we are going

775
00:45:56,500 --> 00:46:02,000
to have a slow but steady March 
towards password less which 

776
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:04,400
means you numb, less number of 
passwords which is obviously 

777
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:06,100
what we all want. 
Bye. 

778
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:07,600
Trick is going to continue to 
increase. 

779
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:11,500
In fact, I think there's 
Regional aspects to that, that 

780
00:46:11,500 --> 00:46:15,400
are going to play in a lot 
because different jurisdictions 

781
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:17,900
in different geographies that 
different tolerances for 

782
00:46:17,900 --> 00:46:20,100
Biometrics. 
So we've already Biometrics is 

783
00:46:20,100 --> 00:46:23,300
already. 
Well, accepted in, for example, 

784
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:27,200
huge parts of Asia and I think 
it's just going to continue to 

785
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:31,500
increase and so with that, they 
will also be an increased focus 

786
00:46:31,500 --> 00:46:35,000
on the Privacy aspects of that 
and the implications. 

787
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:39,700
So, It's going to be a really 
fun interesting ride next year, 

788
00:46:39,700 --> 00:46:43,400
because I think we're going to 
see a lot of activity on 

789
00:46:44,900 --> 00:46:48,400
physical Biometrics by her, in 
the sense of things like facial 

790
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:52,200
recognition, facial 
authentication, I should say, as

791
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:55,600
opposed to facial recognition 
and increased focus on the 

792
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:57,500
distinction between, facial 
recognition and facial 

793
00:46:57,500 --> 00:47:01,300
identification. 
But with masks probably being a 

794
00:47:01,300 --> 00:47:05,200
continued part of her life. 
Hopefully we'll see, you know, 

795
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:09,500
Our forms of Biometrics come 
into the picture as well, just 

796
00:47:09,500 --> 00:47:13,300
because I don't think what 
people have done with respect to

797
00:47:13,300 --> 00:47:16,700
trying to figure out how to do 
facial recognition while mass or

798
00:47:16,700 --> 00:47:20,200
on is sustainable. 
So you know, let's see how that 

799
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:22,900
goes. 
So I think Biometrics will 

800
00:47:22,900 --> 00:47:25,200
definitely continue to be the 
case, but it has to be 

801
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:27,400
touchless. 
So I think that means that 

802
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:32,500
fingerprint readers at stores. 
For example, that is not so 

803
00:47:32,500 --> 00:47:36,400
common for us in the US, for 
example, but is far more Common 

804
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:39,300
in other parts of the world, I 
think fingerprint readers at 

805
00:47:39,300 --> 00:47:42,000
stores friends. 
Banks Etc are going to start to 

806
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:48,500
get replaced by mobile based 
solutions that rely on QR codes 

807
00:47:48,500 --> 00:47:52,300
for NFC in order to make it 
contactless, right? 

808
00:47:52,300 --> 00:47:54,900
So we're going to see some of 
that happening quite a bit, so 

809
00:47:54,900 --> 00:47:57,400
if a sign of K to your personal 
device and then somehow the 

810
00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:01,100
device becomes the, the FED 
exactly at the negated exactly 

811
00:48:01,100 --> 00:48:03,000
mobile devices. 
And mobile devices are just 

812
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:06,000
going to become Central to a lot
of our activity. 

813
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:08,300
Because the person you don't 
have to give them up to 

814
00:48:08,300 --> 00:48:10,600
somebody. 
So you it promotes the contact 

815
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:13,500
disaster and so that leads me to
a couple of follow up ahead 

816
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:16,100
around. 
So here's what it's the only 

817
00:48:16,100 --> 00:48:17,600
talk. 
Let's talk about iPhone real 

818
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:20,700
quick. 
Sure iPhone has gone away from 

819
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:23,300
fingerprint and touch ID over 
the last couple years we've 

820
00:48:23,300 --> 00:48:25,600
turned to face ID. 
Now, we're wearing masks and 

821
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:30,000
that doesn't work so well. 
The newest iPad though has a 

822
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:33,000
fingerprint or touch ID built 
into the power button. 

823
00:48:33,500 --> 00:48:35,700
Here's an off-the-wall question,
do you think the next iPhone is 

824
00:48:35,700 --> 00:48:38,200
going to Of touch ID in a 
similar matter. 

825
00:48:39,700 --> 00:48:42,200
I would love to say yes. 
I was actually hoping it would 

826
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:44,300
be this year where they would 
have a fingerprint reader within

827
00:48:44,300 --> 00:48:46,600
the screen or at least on the 
back of the phone. 

828
00:48:47,300 --> 00:48:49,200
Which I don't know how that 
would work with the fact that I 

829
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:51,000
cannot survive without a case on
my phone. 

830
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:53,800
But yes, I do think fingerprint 
readers. 

831
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:57,900
We will basically. 
Well, I don't know if 2021 is 

832
00:48:57,900 --> 00:49:00,200
the right time, but definitely 
by 2022. 

833
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:03,300
I do it at this fate that 
iPhones will have both facial 

834
00:49:03,300 --> 00:49:07,000
recognition as well as Singapore
readers, both and Just because 

835
00:49:07,100 --> 00:49:09,100
as you said it's like we need 
it. 

836
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:11,000
There is no way to get around 
that. 

837
00:49:11,100 --> 00:49:14,600
I hope you're right too. 
And for the record I am a I am 

838
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:18,000
violently opposed to fingerprint
readers on the backs of phones 

839
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:20,600
because I like to put the phone 
down and if I have to 

840
00:49:20,607 --> 00:49:24,000
authenticate and pick up the 
phone to then put my finger on 

841
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:25,800
the back that just that's I just
hate that. 

842
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:27,500
I know Google. 
Does that not a fan of it? 

843
00:49:27,500 --> 00:49:29,700
Sorry Google. 
But at least you have the touch 

844
00:49:29,700 --> 00:49:31,400
ID or that you have the 
fingerprint authentication. 

845
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:33,400
All right. 
What about things like web off 

846
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:37,000
then and Fido to I kind of think
that we're going to see a little

847
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:40,000
more adoption of it. 
What do you see for 2021? 

848
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:43,300
Now that pretty much all the 
major players have adopted the 

849
00:49:43,300 --> 00:49:48,300
web often standard so it's 
fragmented I think the web 

850
00:49:48,300 --> 00:49:53,400
attend standard is excellent. 
One of the big Focus areas for 

851
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:58,700
us this year eunuch and was 
building our fighter compliant. 

852
00:49:58,700 --> 00:50:01,800
Federal compliance into our 
solution and building and 

853
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:05,400
support for web attend in it. 
But really, what will be the 

854
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:08,900
impediment. 
For about 10 just taking over 

855
00:50:08,900 --> 00:50:11,000
because all things being equal. 
I think we're both kind of would

856
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:15,300
take over easily is the user 
experience. 

857
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:18,600
I think right now, the user 
experience is still problematic.

858
00:50:18,900 --> 00:50:25,300
When you have web attend support
in mobile browsers on device, 

859
00:50:25,300 --> 00:50:29,000
mobile devices that have Fido 
built into it, like on the 

860
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:33,300
Android Android devices and on 
ION iPhone IOS. 

861
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:35,700
Those are fine. 
Those will work. 

862
00:50:35,700 --> 00:50:36,300
Great. 
Eight. 

863
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:41,300
But the user experience for 
registering a yubikey or even 

864
00:50:41,300 --> 00:50:47,000
your Touch ID on your MacBook 
Pro on desktop is still very 

865
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:53,700
clunky, very problematic and is 
a big turn-off for me for 

866
00:50:53,700 --> 00:50:57,100
consumers, right? 
So, I think that is going to be 

867
00:50:57,100 --> 00:51:01,800
a significant hindrance into 
about and really taking off the 

868
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:05,100
way it needs to. 
I know this is an area that is 

869
00:51:05,100 --> 00:51:09,300
the Amount of work happening 
right now to try and standardize

870
00:51:09,300 --> 00:51:12,500
that user experience, Because 
unless you stand as that user 

871
00:51:12,500 --> 00:51:16,800
experience, a you can work out 
the Kinks and make it better, 

872
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:20,900
but be an Onsen experience is an
invitation for attackers to 

873
00:51:20,900 --> 00:51:23,900
exploit it. 
And so that's going to be. 

874
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:29,600
I think the thing that holds it 
back in 2021, hopefully by 2022 

875
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:33,300
that hindrances gone and in 2022
without the really takes off. 

876
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:37,500
But given the state where things
are today, I don't I think we're

877
00:51:37,500 --> 00:51:40,300
quite ready for with end. 
Do you know Shoot To The Moon 

878
00:51:40,300 --> 00:51:42,500
right now? 
Okay, what about Sovereign 

879
00:51:42,500 --> 00:51:45,000
identity and blockchain? 
I've been here about that for I 

880
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:46,400
feel like the last couple of 
years. 

881
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:50,000
They seem to have gone a little 
bit quiet more recently, where 

882
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:53,900
do you see the both of those 
kind of related things, you 

883
00:51:53,900 --> 00:51:57,200
know, by the end of 2020. 
One, let's say next question, 

884
00:51:57,700 --> 00:51:59,800
next question. 
Okay, how about 0 f? 

885
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:01,700
It is? 
It is too problematic. 

886
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:07,000
So zero trust. 
When I was just getting what we 

887
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:10,700
do, like it's a tongue that I 
quite frankly, tried not to use 

888
00:52:10,700 --> 00:52:18,400
because it a is so overused now 
and B is so fuzzy defined that 

889
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:21,800
everybody was able to like you 
should have been at RSA 

890
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:25,500
conference walking the floor and
you would see more than half the

891
00:52:25,500 --> 00:52:28,000
companies have zero trust in 
their in their banners. 

892
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:34,200
So, I think as a if we step back
from the marketing stuff and 

893
00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:38,600
actually look at what it is, is 
in terms of an architectural 

894
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:44,200
methodology, I think zero trust 
is absolutely something that 

895
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:49,000
every organization needs to 
invest in, you know, it's 

896
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:51,700
basically defense in that it's 
about multi layered defenses 

897
00:52:52,100 --> 00:52:53,600
defenses. 
That you need to put in place 

898
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:57,000
and you can't just focus on one 
piece. 

899
00:52:57,500 --> 00:53:00,500
One of the things that in, for 
all the years that we've been 

900
00:53:00,500 --> 00:53:04,700
doing authentication and strong 
authentication, we do not think 

901
00:53:04,700 --> 00:53:08,300
about the security of it. 
So we always assume the 

902
00:53:08,300 --> 00:53:09,900
security. 
Yeah, we're doing strong, 

903
00:53:09,900 --> 00:53:12,600
authentication tokens are going 
fine back and forth and you 

904
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:15,400
Passwords usernames. 
Passwords are being sent over 

905
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:18,100
the wire. 
Yeah, this TST Ellis takes care 

906
00:53:18,100 --> 00:53:22,000
of the security of it. 
Oh, I have a token stored on the

907
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:24,400
device. 
Yeah, that's somehow secure and 

908
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:27,400
I don't have to worry about it. 
Unfortunately, we have worried 

909
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:32,400
about it because, as we start 
moving to device based security 

910
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:36,400
models, as you start moving to 
places, where two scenarios 

911
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:40,200
where we now are increasingly 
leveraging Fido, which means you

912
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:42,400
have a private key saved on the 
device. 

913
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:46,700
And yes, it's stored in the 
secure element on the device. 

914
00:53:47,900 --> 00:53:50,500
Attackers are going to start 
looking at exploits at the 

915
00:53:50,500 --> 00:53:52,300
device. 
Level to figure out how to 

916
00:53:52,500 --> 00:53:55,500
attack that, how to steal Keys, 
how to intercept Keys, how to 

917
00:53:55,500 --> 00:53:57,300
leverage. 
So you're going to see an 

918
00:53:57,300 --> 00:54:01,000
increase in, how malware 
attacks, the security of these, 

919
00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:06,200
these new security methodology 
and so unless you have a 0600 

920
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:10,300
trust architecture Quarry which 
is I'm not you just going to 

921
00:54:10,300 --> 00:54:12,000
look at strong authentication 
but I'm actually going to look 

922
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:14,800
at the entire threat model and 
look at all of these layers. 

923
00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:19,500
You're going to leave yourself 
just as vulnerable even in a, 

924
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:25,300
you know, Fido security model to
attacks that just like we've had

925
00:54:25,300 --> 00:54:28,200
with passwords with passwords. 
Passwords are fine. 

926
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:30,400
If you have a strong password 
and nobody can guess it. 

927
00:54:30,700 --> 00:54:32,900
But that doesn't mean that 
fishing doesn't compromise the 

928
00:54:32,900 --> 00:54:37,100
strongest password, right? 
So I think, I think the 

929
00:54:37,100 --> 00:54:39,000
understanding of the 
architectural approach is 

930
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:42,000
continuing to grow and increase.
And I think it's definitely here

931
00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:45,100
to stay and become a core part 
of how organizations. 

932
00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:49,400
Ian's think about their security
architectures. 

933
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:53,800
Alright, my last one is around 
defects. 

934
00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:57,100
When do you think we'll see deep
fakes? 

935
00:54:57,100 --> 00:55:04,300
Really presenting authentication
and fraud challenges for folks 

936
00:55:04,300 --> 00:55:06,700
in the industry, let's say, kind
of, let's get a little bit 

937
00:55:06,700 --> 00:55:09,600
broad, you know, I think right 
now. 

938
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:12,400
It's still a little bit 
difficult to pull off a 

939
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:15,500
convincing, deep fake, whether 
it's audio or video, Video. 

940
00:55:15,500 --> 00:55:17,600
But the tools are getting better
all the time. 

941
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:20,000
Yep. 
And how do you see? 

942
00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:22,200
Deep fakes affecting 
authentication. 

943
00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:26,900
And I am in general in 2021 so 
while they fix continue to 

944
00:55:26,900 --> 00:55:31,600
evolve and get better and 
better, so does the capability 

945
00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:33,000
from the biometric vendors, 
right? 

946
00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:38,100
So it's, it's, it is to some 
extent, a race. 

947
00:55:38,100 --> 00:55:44,500
It is an is an arm's battle, but
What makes biometric then this 

948
00:55:44,500 --> 00:55:46,400
goes back to what we were 
discussing earlier about you 

949
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:49,700
know myths about Biometrics. 
What makes Biometrics good from 

950
00:55:49,700 --> 00:55:52,500
a security standpoint is that 
biometric is instantly about 

951
00:55:52,500 --> 00:55:56,700
looking at a face and matching a
patent and identifying who the 

952
00:55:56,700 --> 00:56:00,400
person is you also have other 
aspects to Biometrics that make 

953
00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:02,700
it good. 
From a security technology 

954
00:56:02,700 --> 00:56:04,600
perspective. 
Specifically things like 

955
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:07,800
liveness detection, you have to 
have lightness detection in 

956
00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:12,900
order for Biometrics to work 
securely and liveness detection 

957
00:56:13,300 --> 00:56:17,100
will in from a technology 
perspective continue to evolve 

958
00:56:17,100 --> 00:56:19,200
just like defect Technologies 
continue to evolve. 

959
00:56:19,500 --> 00:56:24,400
And I anticipate that the 
liveness detection technology 

960
00:56:24,900 --> 00:56:27,700
will continue to keep Pace with 
our defect technology is 

961
00:56:27,700 --> 00:56:30,400
evolving. 
Such that defect technology will

962
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:36,300
not necessarily be able to 
convince a well-defined a 

963
00:56:36,300 --> 00:56:39,900
well-designed biometric system 
with proper liveness detection 

964
00:56:39,900 --> 00:56:43,800
in it. 
To get tricked right now. 

965
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:46,900
That goes back to you have to 
deploy Biometrics properly. 

966
00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:49,800
If you, if you're doing 
something where you're 

967
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:52,600
incorporating biometric 
technology Into Your solution, 

968
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:55,700
you need to make sure that your 
biometric technology has good 

969
00:56:55,700 --> 00:56:57,700
line inspection. 
What is its presentation attack 

970
00:56:57,700 --> 00:57:00,700
detection capability? 
What is the levels of 

971
00:57:00,700 --> 00:57:02,800
certification? 
Is it has achieved and things 

972
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:06,000
like that. 
So as organizations deploying 

973
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:11,100
biometrics, And as device 
vendors like Apple and Google 

974
00:57:11,700 --> 00:57:15,100
that are important parameters in
the technology liveness 

975
00:57:15,100 --> 00:57:17,400
detection, is a critical part 
that they have to stay on top of

976
00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:19,200
and convey love. 
And I think it will happen that 

977
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:22,000
will continue to evolve. 
Those are all aware of this and 

978
00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:24,800
the underlying componentry 
weather is machine learning. 

979
00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:27,300
Whether this, the sensors and 
the quality of the cameras on 

980
00:57:27,300 --> 00:57:30,200
the devices. 
And now with the new iPhone, you

981
00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:33,100
have not just, you know, white 
light, but you have lighter. 

982
00:57:33,700 --> 00:57:37,200
All of those will start to get 
incorporated into the biometric.

983
00:57:37,300 --> 00:57:40,100
Geez that enable you to do 
better liveness detection. 

984
00:57:40,300 --> 00:57:44,000
Such that I think at least for 
2020 if you're going back to the

985
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:46,800
predictions model it will stay a
step ahead of the thick 

986
00:57:46,900 --> 00:57:50,100
technology consignee thing about
defect technology continued to 

987
00:57:50,100 --> 00:57:53,200
promote this information and 
misinformation across the world 

988
00:57:53,200 --> 00:57:54,800
but at least from an 
authentication system 

989
00:57:54,800 --> 00:57:57,100
standpoint. 
I don't think is 20/20 level 

990
00:57:57,100 --> 00:57:59,500
threat. 
I feel like I agree with 

991
00:57:59,500 --> 00:58:01,500
everything you just said, I 
think where I'm most concerned 

992
00:58:01,500 --> 00:58:05,900
about defects is when it comes 
to misinformation, which we've 

993
00:58:05,900 --> 00:58:09,900
already seen but Social 
engineering when it comes to, 

994
00:58:10,100 --> 00:58:12,400
you know, my favorite thing to 
do is turn on the potato filter 

995
00:58:12,900 --> 00:58:15,800
on the camera and, you know, be 
the potato what, you know, at 

996
00:58:15,800 --> 00:58:18,800
some point there's going to be a
filter that's going to be easy 

997
00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:21,000
enough to edit where I can 
appear as anybody. 

998
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:25,500
A one up here is and I can make 
a zoom call or whoever it may be

999
00:58:25,500 --> 00:58:29,600
and fake a bad connection write 
and tell someone to do something

1000
00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:30,900
that they probably shouldn't be 
doing. 

1001
00:58:31,500 --> 00:58:34,500
I feel like that's probably the 
quickest attack route when it 

1002
00:58:34,500 --> 00:58:36,300
comes to deep fakes, but that's 
just the way that I'm thinking 

1003
00:58:36,300 --> 00:58:38,700
about it right now. 
I To use it for the memes. 

1004
00:58:40,700 --> 00:58:42,900
Exactly. 
Exactly that. 

1005
00:58:42,900 --> 00:58:45,200
And let's hope it stays there. 
That's exactly where we want to 

1006
00:58:45,200 --> 00:58:48,500
keep it bottled up. 
All right, well, I know we've 

1007
00:58:48,500 --> 00:58:51,100
gone pretty long today but 
really appreciate the time. 

1008
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:54,600
Before we get things wrapped up 
in a shot, is there anything 

1009
00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:57,400
that you'd like to throw out 
there as any words of wisdoms or

1010
00:58:57,400 --> 00:59:00,900
maybe other final predictions? 
For what you think 2021 might 

1011
00:59:00,900 --> 00:59:05,500
bring upon us. 
Just as you as anybody's in 

1012
00:59:05,500 --> 00:59:08,400
identity, like I said, there's 
so many Aspects to it. 

1013
00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:11,600
Figure out the aspect that will 
help you and your organization 

1014
00:59:11,600 --> 00:59:13,100
or your project get better, 
right? 

1015
00:59:13,100 --> 00:59:16,700
If it means you as an 
individual, and as your teams 

1016
00:59:16,700 --> 00:59:19,300
joining Ida Pro, absolutely join
Ida Pro. 

1017
00:59:19,300 --> 00:59:22,300
There's a wealth of information 
and there's about this amazing 

1018
00:59:22,300 --> 00:59:26,100
discussions happening, join 
women and identity. 

1019
00:59:27,100 --> 00:59:31,200
Even if you're a man even if 
you're, you know, not in the 

1020
00:59:31,200 --> 00:59:34,400
u.s. it's a global organization,
diversity doesn't mean women 

1021
00:59:34,400 --> 00:59:37,500
even into women is in the title.
It's about diversity Joy. 

1022
00:59:37,600 --> 00:59:41,400
That and learn how to make 
create a more diverse team and 

1023
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:45,800
inclusive team and keep an eye 
on things that are happening on 

1024
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:47,800
the regulatory front, there's 
going to be a lot of stuff 

1025
00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:51,300
happening on the Privacy front. 
That's going to be happening 

1026
00:59:51,600 --> 00:59:53,700
from a regulatory perspective. 
That is going to really 

1027
00:59:53,700 --> 00:59:58,500
significantly impact a lot of 
the work that we do and that's 

1028
00:59:58,500 --> 01:00:02,000
getting really ratcheted up. 
So that that actually is one of 

1029
01:00:02,008 --> 01:00:07,000
the predictions of 2021 2021 is 
we're going to see a whole bunch

1030
01:00:07,000 --> 01:00:09,100
of privacy. 
Patients come out that I'm going

1031
01:00:09,100 --> 01:00:11,100
to significantly impact the work
that we're doing. 

1032
01:00:11,300 --> 01:00:12,000
Yeah. 
I think it's a really good 

1033
01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:13,200
point. 
You bring up the globe at the 

1034
01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:18,000
globe ality if that's a word of 
my day and access management and

1035
01:00:18,300 --> 01:00:19,900
you know, the different 
organizations. 

1036
01:00:20,100 --> 01:00:23,600
You know, this show for example 
is has a pretty good following 

1037
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:25,800
internationally. 
We've seen a lot of growth 

1038
01:00:25,800 --> 01:00:28,700
actually in the London area, 
which is fantastic. 

1039
01:00:28,700 --> 01:00:30,200
And I'm a little bit this point,
because I'm supposed to be in 

1040
01:00:30,200 --> 01:00:33,200
London earlier this year to 
watch the Cubs and Cardinals, 

1041
01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:34,600
and obviously, that didn't 
happen. 

1042
01:00:34,600 --> 01:00:37,100
So I'm looking forward to my 
trip. 

1043
01:00:37,600 --> 01:00:42,100
Our next time, but all these 
organizations, you know, are at 

1044
01:00:42,100 --> 01:00:43,900
least the ones that I am aware 
of things like Ida Pro, would 

1045
01:00:43,900 --> 01:00:47,500
love to have more International 
representation and, you know, 

1046
01:00:47,500 --> 01:00:50,000
it's a good time to join any of 
these organizations that you 

1047
01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:52,600
think that might be helpful 
either for yourself in your 

1048
01:00:52,600 --> 01:00:56,900
career or, you know, just you're
interested in Jim. 

1049
01:00:57,000 --> 01:01:01,300
Any last thoughts from yourself?
Yeah, I've encouraged everybody 

1050
01:01:01,300 --> 01:01:04,900
to get out there and, and watch 
the shots. 

1051
01:01:05,100 --> 01:01:07,500
I didn't reverse talk, he's a 
fantastic. 

1052
01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:12,300
Presenter, I think, you know, 
just learning to present, he 

1053
01:01:12,300 --> 01:01:15,900
doesn't such a cool style. 
So see we can take away from 

1054
01:01:15,900 --> 01:01:17,100
that. 
May be incorporated, some of 

1055
01:01:17,107 --> 01:01:21,100
that into your own talks, I 
think, you know, presenting a 

1056
01:01:21,107 --> 01:01:24,600
such an important part of kind 
of growing your career, whether 

1057
01:01:24,600 --> 01:01:26,800
your and identity management or 
anything else. 

1058
01:01:27,600 --> 01:01:30,100
And then the other thing is just
building your network. 

1059
01:01:30,800 --> 01:01:34,700
So I know, Jeff and I are heavy 
users of LinkedIn. 

1060
01:01:34,700 --> 01:01:38,700
Please feel free to send Send us
a connection. 

1061
01:01:38,700 --> 01:01:40,600
Get linked in with us there. 
Sean. 

1062
01:01:40,600 --> 01:01:45,900
How can folks follow you or 
connect with you from the social

1063
01:01:45,900 --> 01:01:49,300
perspective? 
My most active social media. 

1064
01:01:49,600 --> 01:01:53,100
Presence is Twitter. 
I you know put it isn't what it 

1065
01:01:53,100 --> 01:01:56,500
used to be but I still leverage 
it quite a bit and there's still

1066
01:01:56,500 --> 01:01:59,100
a lot of fuss identity folks. 
Who are there? 

1067
01:01:59,100 --> 01:02:01,000
Having really fun? 
Interesting conversation. 

1068
01:02:01,800 --> 01:02:04,300
If you join Ida Pro, then you 
pull slack. 

1069
01:02:04,300 --> 01:02:07,200
Channel is a fun place to talk 
as well. 

1070
01:02:07,900 --> 01:02:09,300
There's plenty of means that as 
well. 

1071
01:02:09,300 --> 01:02:13,000
So it's a fun place to have 
really interesting discussion 

1072
01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:17,100
and identity. 
But yeah, Twitter on LinkedIn, 

1073
01:02:17,300 --> 01:02:19,800
you know, and as well, but not 
as active there. 

1074
01:02:21,400 --> 01:02:22,800
Yeah, that's it. 
That's about it. 

1075
01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:26,700
And I'll have links to to you on
LinkedIn or I'll put your 

1076
01:02:26,700 --> 01:02:29,700
Twitter handle as well in the 
show notes, your your 

1077
01:02:29,700 --> 01:02:31,600
identifiers chat. 
We're gonna have a whole bunch 

1078
01:02:31,600 --> 01:02:33,800
of links in the show notes for 
this one. 

1079
01:02:33,800 --> 01:02:37,100
So right, and as a whole bunch 
of stuff on my on my website as 

1080
01:02:37,100 --> 01:02:41,100
well in the Takashi got calmer 
and you go to my blog. 

1081
01:02:41,300 --> 01:02:44,500
My talking identity.com blog, 
there's a bunch of stuff, 

1082
01:02:44,500 --> 01:02:46,500
they're all my previous talks 
out there as well. 

1083
01:02:46,800 --> 01:02:49,500
There's gonna be a lot of a lot 
of follow-up things for people 

1084
01:02:49,500 --> 01:02:52,200
to check out. 
Absolutely, absolutely. 

1085
01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:53,500
All right. 
Well, I think that's a pretty 

1086
01:02:53,500 --> 01:02:56,600
good spot to leave it for for 
this episode. 

1087
01:02:56,800 --> 01:02:59,700
Appreciate everyone listening to
us. 

1088
01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:03,200
You can always visit our show at
identity at the center.com. 

1089
01:03:03,200 --> 01:03:07,200
You can follow us on Twitter at 
idac podcast. 

1090
01:03:07,500 --> 01:03:09,300
Like I mentioned, will have 
links to a whole bunch of stuff 

1091
01:03:09,300 --> 01:03:12,000
for this in the show notes. 
So feel free to check those out 

1092
01:03:12,000 --> 01:03:15,300
and wherever you're reading or 
listening to the podcast here, 

1093
01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:18,400
you'll find them there and with 
that we'll go ahead and close it

1094
01:03:18,400 --> 01:03:20,600
out for this week. 
Thanks for listening, and we'll 

1095
01:03:20,600 --> 01:03:21,800
talk with you all in the next 
one. 

1096
01:03:25,400 --> 01:03:28,700
You've been listening to the 
identity at the center podcast, 

1097
01:03:28,900 --> 01:03:31,600
if you like what you heard, 
don't forget to subscribe and 

1098
01:03:31,600 --> 01:03:34,900
visit us on the web at identity 
at the center.com. 

1099
01:03:25,400 --> 01:03:28,700
You've been listening to the 
identity at the center podcast, 

1100
01:03:28,900 --> 01:03:31,600
if you like what you heard, 
don't forget to subscribe and 

1101
01:03:31,600 --> 01:03:34,900
visit us on the web at identity 
at the center.com.