1
00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:11,160
This is identity at the center. 
Welcome to the Identity at the 

2
00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:12,960
Center podcast. 
I'm Jeff, and that's Jim. 

3
00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:15,080
Hey, Jim. 
Hey, Jeff, how are you? 

4
00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:21,960
Oh, not so bad yourself. 
Happy anniversary. 400 episodes 

5
00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:25,120
of Identity at the Center. 
Pretty crazy. 

6
00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:29,400
That's 400. 
I wouldn't say 400 weeks, right?

7
00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:31,800
It's probably close. 
So, I mean, there were a lot of 

8
00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:38,720
weeks where we did more than one
episode, but it 6 1/2 years, 400

9
00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:40,760
episodes, I think we're ahead of
pace. 

10
00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:44,400
Yeah, it's been a crazy wild 
ride. 

11
00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:47,800
Yeah, I think we're we're going 
to do today is kind of talk 

12
00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:49,920
about that journey that the 
podcast has been on and the 

13
00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:51,960
growth we've seen and then maybe
talk through like some trends. 

14
00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:55,440
But I guess to kick down the 4th
wall that we that I like to do 

15
00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:58,360
at least is this is actually the
first episode you and I are 

16
00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:01,040
recording together. 
That is like a non sponsored 

17
00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:04,319
thing in the year 2026. 
So we had some episodes that 

18
00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:06,640
were recorded in December while 
we were at Gartner. 

19
00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:09,920
We did the majority things 
majority rules game show with 

20
00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:12,520
Becky there, which was awesome. 
And Gartner let us release it, 

21
00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:15,320
which is even more amazing. 
So there's proof that we were 

22
00:01:15,320 --> 00:01:19,840
there and yeah, here we are. 
Look, it's. 

23
00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:22,040
But it's, I guess when this goes
on, it'll be what, February 

24
00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:23,800
something? 
Happy New Year. 

25
00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:26,280
Merry Christmas. 
How was your holiday break? 

26
00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:28,840
All that stuff. 
It's good, you know, and I've 

27
00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:33,720
got a few New Year's resolutions
that probably should kind of 

28
00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:37,080
been the kind of person who 
doesn't do New Year's 

29
00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:39,360
resolutions. 
There's been something that's 

30
00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:42,680
been eating at me for a while, 
which is I wanted to write a 

31
00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:47,240
book about identity. 
And the more I thought about it,

32
00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:50,200
I didn't want to write just 
another identity book, which I 

33
00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:51,520
don't even know what's 
happening, right. 

34
00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:56,120
But I looked at it like a, a 
book that a lot of people would 

35
00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:58,080
write, say like an Eve Mailer 
would write. 

36
00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:02,080
It's like, I can't do that. 
I can't like that's not even if 

37
00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:03,720
I wanted to do that, I couldn't 
do it. 

38
00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:08,440
But I do feel like I've got a 
creative mind and I've got a lot

39
00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:12,200
of experience doing identity 
over the past 20 years. 

40
00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:20,880
And so I, I'm writing a book of 
short stories from the lens of 

41
00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:25,600
identity practitioners doing 
identity stuff in the trenches. 

42
00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:32,000
And what I'm doing is kind of a 
mix of telling the identity 

43
00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:35,680
story, but also telling the 
story a little bit about the 

44
00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:40,080
people and the interactions and 
like what's happening to them. 

45
00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:41,680
So I don't want to give too much
away. 

46
00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:44,840
And the book's not really 
written yet, but I've made 

47
00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:48,440
tremendous progress on It's 
going to happen here in 2026. 

48
00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:51,160
How many pictures can I expect 
in it? 

49
00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:57,320
I don't know really. 
It's not, it's not a 

50
00:02:57,360 --> 00:02:59,680
kindergarten or under book. 
No, it's. 

51
00:02:59,920 --> 00:03:02,040
It might not have any pictures. 
OK. 

52
00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:04,960
Well when you when you let me 
know about this a couple days 

53
00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:07,560
ago, I kind of mentioned it 
sound a little bit like kind of 

54
00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:10,160
like the Phoenix project. 
Was that a fair kind of 

55
00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:13,160
comparison or? 
I mean, yeah, that's, you know, 

56
00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:17,720
a lot of first hand, first hand 
accounts of things that have 

57
00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:22,160
already happened. 
So that's kind of the point of 

58
00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:25,640
view of the storyteller. 
One thing that I'm doing is 

59
00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:30,480
trying to trade off between 
mentor and a mentee or an 

60
00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:35,320
advisor and advisee situation. 
So run through like a scenario 

61
00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:39,680
where a breach has recently 
taken place and somebody, two 

62
00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:41,920
people who were involved in the 
breach in some way. 

63
00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:45,680
But somebody who has kind of 
more perspective of having, you 

64
00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:49,360
know, a 30 year career and, you 
know, looking at it differently 

65
00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:53,840
than the person who maybe was on
the front lines and is more 

66
00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:58,120
early career and like thinking 
like, great, I was on the fast 

67
00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:01,000
track and all of a sudden like 
I'd blown it. 

68
00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:04,640
So that's just an example of one
story. 

69
00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:07,480
There's another story I'm 
working on where the setting is 

70
00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:12,160
they are preparing for, you 
know, I don't say the Olympic 

71
00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:15,520
Games, I just say the games. 
But if that like that kind of 

72
00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:18,800
setting is like a major event 
where the whole world has 

73
00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:22,000
eyeballs on this thing. 
And could you imagine being 

74
00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:27,320
responsible for the identity 
roll out, maybe the biometrics, 

75
00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:30,440
the idea of like taking some 
kind of cutting edge 

76
00:04:30,840 --> 00:04:34,920
technologies like using 
biometrics for making purchases 

77
00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:38,240
and entering at the gate, like 
things that have been done, but 

78
00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:43,120
doing it at that kind of scale. 
So a lot of cool backdrops for 

79
00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:47,760
these stories, but then I also 
tried to weave in, you know, a 

80
00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:50,080
little bit of education. 
So it's kind of like this 

81
00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:52,480
podcast, right? 
We always think of ourselves as 

82
00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:56,080
like edutainment, like partially
education, partially 

83
00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:59,360
entertainment. 
And so the idea we find the book

84
00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:01,720
is really the same kind of 
approach. 

85
00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:05,520
So take me through your process 
here because Jim, I love you, 

86
00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:06,760
man. 
You're one of my best friends. 

87
00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:11,720
But I've seen you type and based
on what I know of your typing, 

88
00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:14,040
this book might come out in a 
decade, so. 

89
00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:18,680
That's a good point. 
Well, First off, I think my 

90
00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:22,400
typing has gotten a lot better 
and there's voice recognition 

91
00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:27,880
software that helps. 
But I mean, I'd be remiss I'd be

92
00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:31,120
lying if I said I wasn't using 
AI for help. 

93
00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:37,240
You know my, my approach with 
using AI for the book, it's kind

94
00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:41,640
of like I use AI for everything.
I explain everything that's in 

95
00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:46,640
my head to the prompt to the AI 
and then it comes back with 

96
00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:51,200
ideas. 
And the one thing I, I am 

97
00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:56,480
critical of AI right now in the 
in 2026 is that it pretty much 

98
00:05:56,480 --> 00:06:01,080
agrees with everything I say. 
Every idea I have is like the 

99
00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:03,600
most awesome idea that's ever 
been heard. 

100
00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:07,840
I should say that's that's what 
happens like 99% of the time. 

101
00:06:07,840 --> 00:06:11,560
Sometimes it does give me some 
feedback, which is good critical

102
00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:14,880
feedback, but it does a really 
good job of like, OK, with what 

103
00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:19,360
you've given me now I'm going to
do my best to output this thing.

104
00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:23,200
And then it's a lot more 
iterations than I expected. 

105
00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:28,240
I expected like, Hey, I, I gave 
you, you know, a full page of 

106
00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:31,600
like, here's my thought, right? 
And I'm looking for a A10 page 

107
00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:36,320
short story and then like how, 
how, how did you miss by that 

108
00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:41,320
much, right, So that there is a 
lot more corrective or it's kind

109
00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:43,600
of like you're talking to 
another person. 

110
00:06:45,280 --> 00:06:47,280
Obviously, I think most people 
who are listening to this 

111
00:06:47,280 --> 00:06:49,880
podcast have done enough AI 
don't know what I'm talking 

112
00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:53,600
about, right. 
It's just a back and forth and I

113
00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:57,080
don't know, Jeff, I think it's 
just like so entertaining for me

114
00:06:57,080 --> 00:07:00,240
to go through this process. 
That's been the biggest surprise

115
00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:04,200
so far is that I kind of had 
this idea for a long time and I 

116
00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:06,720
kept putting it off. 
Kept putting it off because I 

117
00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:09,680
thought it was going to be kind 
of dreadful to sit there and 

118
00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:12,280
write a book. 
Like, who the heck wants to 

119
00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:18,160
write 100 pages of anything? 
Well, the approach in using AI 

120
00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:22,520
has been a lot of fun. 
It sounds interesting. 

121
00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:25,720
Are you going to do an audiobook
version of it, be you, you know,

122
00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:28,360
speaking into the microphone, 
reading, you know, being the 

123
00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:30,200
characters in it and the 
different voices? 

124
00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:31,920
Because that I would pay extra 
for that. 

125
00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:37,600
I think the only way I wind up 
doing an audiobook is is with 

126
00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:39,600
AI. 
So in other words, I'll teach 

127
00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:41,800
you on my voice. 
Now you read the thing. 

128
00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:46,080
But if it sounds too mechanical 
or too robotic, that wouldn't 

129
00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:48,880
work. 
I have another friend who 

130
00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:52,440
published a book recently, put 
it on Amazon. 

131
00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:55,760
So I'm going to learn a lot from
him in terms of like, how did he

132
00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:57,960
approach that? 
But you know, you can self 

133
00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:01,720
publish books now without, you 
know, having to, to get a 

134
00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:04,880
contract or anything. 
And you know, I, I think this 

135
00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:08,800
will be popular within our 
circle, like the identity 

136
00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:12,760
practitioner circle, but I don't
see this being New York Times 

137
00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:16,800
bestseller. 
You never know, you know, get it

138
00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:18,480
out. 
Maybe you want to sponsor an 

139
00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:21,640
episode of the podcast and, you 
know, promote the book, things 

140
00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:24,720
like that. 
Well, hopefully I don't have to 

141
00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:28,240
sponsor we'll. 
Take it under consideration, you

142
00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:30,440
know, I'll talk with management.
Yeah, right. 

143
00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:32,960
There you go. 
That's pretty exciting though, 

144
00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:34,559
writing a book. 
So that's a New Year's 

145
00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:35,880
resolution. 
Is that mean? 

146
00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:38,559
Then sometime this year is 
you're thinking you'll be done 

147
00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:41,840
with it and kind of like out 
there for people to to enjoy. 

148
00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:46,320
My goal is by one of the 
conferences this summer to say 

149
00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:50,880
it's launched, maybe to even 
have a few printed copies 

150
00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:55,200
available that, you know, people
are interested in buying it. 

151
00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:59,200
I'm assuming it's going to cost 
me enough money to produce it 

152
00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:02,800
that I'm not just going to want 
to give them away, but we'll 

153
00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:05,120
see. 
You know, I'd like to be able to

154
00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:08,160
give them away, but that's kind 
of the timing that I'm thinking 

155
00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:12,360
about is like you know around 
the conferences May, June time 

156
00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:13,520
frame. 
Yeah. 

157
00:09:13,560 --> 00:09:17,640
So we'll have EIC in Berlin in 
May and then Ideniverse in Las 

158
00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:21,840
Vegas in June, can turn our 
podcasts recordings that we do 

159
00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:25,520
there into slash book signing 
for you, Jim. 

160
00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:28,640
Exactly. 
Yeah, yeah, I'm, I'll maybe I'll

161
00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:31,000
have to get a little booth or 
something, but I don't think 

162
00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:33,320
it's going to be that popular a 
line out the door. 

163
00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:39,760
You know, the, I think the, the 
way we went, like we're sitting 

164
00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:44,200
here today at like 1.5 million 
downloads, which is mind 

165
00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:49,000
blowing, mind blowing that our 
podcast people have listened to 

166
00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:53,160
us that many times. 
And we do LinkedIn. 

167
00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:56,320
We have to do really for the 
most part any other social 

168
00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:59,520
media. 
We tried like X for a while. 

169
00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:05,040
We tried blue. 
Sky and Instagram, it's just. 

170
00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:07,800
Too much one that people got 
sick of X, right? 

171
00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:10,560
They got sick of Elon. 
So then everybody went over to 

172
00:10:10,560 --> 00:10:12,440
this other one, Blue. 
Sky or Mastodon? 

173
00:10:12,680 --> 00:10:15,600
Yeah, Mastodon. 
Mastodon was one, yeah, which is

174
00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:17,800
another decentralized, you know,
thing. 

175
00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:21,040
I think blue Sky's kind of taken
over kind of that role, but it's

176
00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:22,560
just too much, man. 
I can't keep up with it. 

177
00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:27,600
So it's LinkedIn and YouTube 
and, you know, the podcast 

178
00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:29,880
platform and, and the audience. 
What I was going to say is it's 

179
00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:32,760
been word of mouth. 
I mean, I think that's the 

180
00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:35,960
biggest thing is word of mouth 
and people telling people. 

181
00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:41,080
So if you're listening, I think 
probably other than listening 

182
00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:44,040
we, which we highly appreciate, 
if there's something you want to

183
00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:48,880
do to help the podcast, it's 
tell a friend, you know, or as 

184
00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:51,880
Jeff likes to say, at the end of
episodes, tell a friend, tell an

185
00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:53,480
enemy. 
We don't care as long as they 

186
00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:57,160
listen. 
Right, exactly so I think. 

187
00:10:57,160 --> 00:10:58,800
The book is going to spread that
way too. 

188
00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:00,680
I mean, that would be a science 
success. 

189
00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:03,360
That'd be a, that'd be a nice, a
nice little bonus for it. 

190
00:11:03,680 --> 00:11:07,760
One in one and a half million 
downloads to date. 

191
00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:10,360
We've been doing this for, you 
know, it's called almost seven 

192
00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:12,240
years. 
You know, kind of July, June, 

193
00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:14,480
July is sort of like our 
birthday kind of officially. 

194
00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:19,800
I was looking back over the 
stats and in 2019 we put out 26 

195
00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:24,800
episodes for a total of 2374 
downloads with an average 

196
00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:29,200
download per episode of 91. 
And I'm pretty sure I was 

197
00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:33,520
probably 80 or 90 of those 
making sure things were working 

198
00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:36,440
and try some of that. 
And yeah, it's just been growth 

199
00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:40,040
since there last year alone. 
This is absolutely mind 

200
00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:41,680
boggling. 
We did almost 1,000,000 

201
00:11:41,680 --> 00:11:45,280
downloads just in 2025. 
It's crazy. 

202
00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:47,160
It's really crazy. 
Yeah. 

203
00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:49,800
So thank you so much to everyone
who is like supported. 

204
00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:53,280
You know, there's a ton of, you 
know, listeners and super fans 

205
00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:55,880
and folks that we meet at 
conferences and we kind of 

206
00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:58,320
talked to like, OK, we name 
names as like, well, we're not, 

207
00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:00,880
are we going to miss somebody 
that we mean to include? 

208
00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:03,560
And so we just decided we'll 
just leave a general thank you 

209
00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:06,560
to everybody. 
I think people know who they are

210
00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:10,080
and really appreciate it. 
And, you know, the conferences 

211
00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:12,280
have been a big, a big thing for
us, you know, going to places 

212
00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:14,400
like Ideniverse and Gartner and 
Fido. 

213
00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:17,480
And I know now EIC for the first
time last year and again, you 

214
00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:19,520
know, this year, I think that's 
where people have really kind of

215
00:12:19,560 --> 00:12:22,040
discovered us. 
Because I'm always curious like,

216
00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:23,040
hey, how did you hear about this
thing? 

217
00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:24,600
Because, yeah, we don't do any 
advertising. 

218
00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:27,760
It's either me on LinkedIn 
posting a new episode or, you 

219
00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:30,600
know, maybe the out the YouTube 
algorithm, which we started 

220
00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:33,360
video maybe was that about a 
year, a year and a half already 

221
00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:36,840
now or maybe 2 years even, which
is still growing, right? 

222
00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:39,560
We're still, that's still kind 
of our, our very, very much a 

223
00:12:39,560 --> 00:12:44,040
minority platform. 99% of the 
people who listen are listeners.

224
00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:46,400
They don't really watch on 
YouTube, but that's probably 

225
00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:47,840
better for their eyeballs. 
They don't have to see these 

226
00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:52,120
faces. 
No, I I think it's the format is

227
00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:54,360
probably lends itself better to 
audio. 

228
00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:58,400
You know you're off for your 
walk or on the car ride to work.

229
00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:03,680
You just played the audio. 
I totally agree with you about 

230
00:13:03,680 --> 00:13:07,280
not naming names because you're 
invariably going to leave 

231
00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:10,160
someone out. 
But there's one name I do want 

232
00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:13,440
to mention and it goes back to 
episode 7. 

233
00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:15,280
Probably know who I'm talking 
about. 

234
00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:22,800
Elise Almeida, dear friend of 
both of ours, passed away right 

235
00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:27,400
after the the new year. 
Yeah, yeah, a lot of kind of 

236
00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:29,600
outpouring support on LinkedIn, 
I noticed. 

237
00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:32,720
And you know, we worked with him
at Identropy a very long time 

238
00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:35,880
ago feels like. 
But we've all like that whole 

239
00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:37,960
team has really kind of stayed 
together, right? 

240
00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:40,800
That's how you, Jim and I, you 
and I met were working through 

241
00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:43,880
Identropy though. 
Elise was just awesome. 

242
00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:45,920
Yeah. 
And it's a shame that we've lost

243
00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:49,880
him so soon, but it it, it's 
nice to see the outpouring. 

244
00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:52,440
You just kind of wish it would 
happen while people were still. 

245
00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:54,120
Alive. 
I know, I know. 

246
00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:56,880
That's the truth. 
That's the truth. 

247
00:13:56,880 --> 00:14:00,480
And yeah, he's somebody that 
will always remember. 

248
00:14:00,680 --> 00:14:04,560
And like I said, he was on 
episode 7, episode 78 and 

249
00:14:04,560 --> 00:14:09,080
episode 164. 
So folks are interested in going

250
00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:13,360
out it by the way, in case you 
always you ever wonder like how 

251
00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:16,480
do we remember what episodes 
specific people were on? 

252
00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:19,680
Go to our website, 
idacpodcast.com. 

253
00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:23,600
There's a tab for listen and 
there's a a search bar that 

254
00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:25,840
works as good as any search for 
eyes. 

255
00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:30,200
I mean, this thing's on the 
level of Google well. 

256
00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:32,400
Let's not go crazy. 
It's very simple. 

257
00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:35,080
Just type in a couple words 
that'll find anything in the 

258
00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:38,400
description or the titles. 
Yeah, no, it's not. 

259
00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:41,600
It's not at the Google level, 
but it is, it's pretty darn 

260
00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:44,640
good. 
So you know, as having done IT 

261
00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:49,440
projects for over 20 years, I 
remember some really bad search 

262
00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:53,160
wars overtime, like if you 
misspell something, forget it. 

263
00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:57,640
It was not finding it. 
Yeah, I can think of a couple of

264
00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:00,040
enterprise tools that you and I 
use in our day job. 

265
00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:03,240
It's pretty much like that. 
That's just an absolute mess. 

266
00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:06,280
And you'd think we would have 
that, you know, those types of 

267
00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:08,360
solutions would have solved for 
that already. 

268
00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:10,280
But clearly there is an area for
improvement. 

269
00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:13,400
Definitely. 
So how about your new year? 

270
00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:15,720
I mean, how is it off to a good 
start? 

271
00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:20,560
Yeah, I mean, after Gartner, I 
basically shut it down for for a

272
00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:25,280
few weeks, came home, adopted a 
puppy, though we now have Pepper

273
00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:27,360
joining our pack here. 
So now we are officially 

274
00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,680
outnumbered again in the house, 
three dogs to two humans. 

275
00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:34,360
We imported her from Tennessee, 
couple hours away. 

276
00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:37,160
My wife went and picked picked 
her up and brought her home. 

277
00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:42,000
And that has basically consumed 
our entire life for the last I 

278
00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:45,640
guess month and a half now. 
So I would like to say it was a 

279
00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:49,400
fun and great Christmas kind of 
holiday, New Year break. 

280
00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:54,200
But it was I do not feel rested 
because there was a lot of like,

281
00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:58,400
you know, one AM, 3:00 AM, five 
AM, 7:00 AM walk outside. 

282
00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:01,240
Let's try to get the house, you 
know, the house breaking done 

283
00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:02,440
and and things like that. 
But. 

284
00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:06,640
Every once in a while, step in a
pile of poop or what? 

285
00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:09,320
Or a wet spot on the hardwood 
floor. 

286
00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:11,560
Yeah, yeah. 
She's been pretty good, though. 

287
00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:13,880
So, you know, I think part of 
that is just us being diligent, 

288
00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:16,480
you know, or a couple mistakes, 
you know, you're, you know, here

289
00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:18,840
and there. 
But I can tell you it was it was

290
00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:21,600
some days we got really lucky, 
sort of like when we first 

291
00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:24,400
brought her home, because the 
weather here in in Asheville, NC

292
00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:27,080
was relatively mild. 
And so it wasn't too bad. 

293
00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:30,840
And then, like, the freezing 
temps kind of came and, you 

294
00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:32,880
know, they're, you know, when 
you're out at 3:00 in the 

295
00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:36,880
morning, you know, in the side 
of a mountain, the wind is 

296
00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:39,960
whipping. 
We had gusts here from thirty, 

297
00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:43,200
3540 miles an hour. 
And that's whipping, you know, 

298
00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:45,600
through. 
And it's cold. 

299
00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:47,720
It's like, all right, do your 
business. 

300
00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:49,680
We need to get inside. 
Like, this is not fun. 

301
00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:55,360
But yeah, so far so good. 
You are quite the quite the dad.

302
00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:58,320
Well. 
That's, you know, those are our 

303
00:16:58,320 --> 00:16:59,920
kids in our house, but. 
Yeah. 

304
00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:05,160
So, yeah, one of the one of the 
things we talked about doing 

305
00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:08,480
during this episode, we 
obviously wanted to talk about 

306
00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:12,359
the conferences and just to let 
people know, because I think 

307
00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:16,720
this is one of the things that 
kind of a service that we do and

308
00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:20,920
we've been doing it for a long 
time is we always ask the 

309
00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:23,640
conferences to give us a 
conference discount code. 

310
00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:26,920
It will publish, right? 
We don't ask them to pay us to 

311
00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:29,200
do that or anything. 
We just do it as a service to 

312
00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:33,160
our listeners. 
And we always insist, don't give

313
00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:36,440
us a discount code unless it's 
the best one because there was 

314
00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:41,160
an instant, I'm not going to try
to pinpoint who it was, give us 

315
00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:43,720
a discount code. 
And then again e-mail a couple 

316
00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:47,280
days later where it was like, 
oh, here's this other 

317
00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:52,000
organizations discount code and 
it's, it was like 5% better than

318
00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:53,520
ours. 
I'm like, what the heck. 

319
00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:57,880
We've been telling people here's
a 20% and now here's a 25% that 

320
00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:01,480
doesn't fly. 
So at least we get verbal 

321
00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:05,320
guarantees that yes, these are 
going to be the best available. 

322
00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:08,320
Yeah, and that's great for 
conferences like to want to 

323
00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:10,400
partner with us and do that. 
I think, you know, we bring a 

324
00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:12,560
lot of fun, I think to 
conferences. 

325
00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:15,120
You know, we've done like our 
game show their majority rules 

326
00:18:15,120 --> 00:18:17,480
couple places. 
You know, we Fido we do, you 

327
00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:19,400
know, Fido few, which is a lot 
of fun. 

328
00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:23,040
And you know, we try to do 
something different and try to 

329
00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:25,600
make it more entertaining. 
And if we can somehow use that 

330
00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:28,800
to save people money, awesome. 
Like that's, that's a win for 

331
00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:32,600
everybody. 
Yeah, I also feel like, you 

332
00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:36,360
know, the confidence attendance 
being there has helped people 

333
00:18:36,360 --> 00:18:41,000
become aware of the show. 
And then I think, you know, it's

334
00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:43,320
it's been great for us. 
Like I love going there. 

335
00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:46,440
I love recording episodes having
a little bit of a different 

336
00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:49,360
background, they're a little bit
different environment. 

337
00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:53,400
Plus you get a break from, you 
know, the day-to-day and you 

338
00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:55,800
know, you can't. 
You get your guests are in the 

339
00:18:55,800 --> 00:19:00,160
same position where they're not 
feeling the pressure of like 

340
00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:02,160
check their e-mail box all the 
time. 

341
00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:05,600
So yeah, I think the whole thing
is fun. 

342
00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:09,080
The other thing that we wanted 
to do is kind of like reflect on

343
00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:12,960
some of the the highlights that 
we've had over over the years. 

344
00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:16,680
What are some of the best 
lessons learned you know, 

345
00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:20,520
without putting a number on over
the 400 episodes of interviewing

346
00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:24,920
What What's 1 of the things that
you've learned about either 

347
00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:27,960
being a guest? 
I feel like one of the things 

348
00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:30,120
I've noticed about you, so I'm 
going to you don't have the 

349
00:19:30,120 --> 00:19:31,640
answer. 
This way you can give whatever 

350
00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:34,360
answer you want. 
One of the things I've I've seen

351
00:19:34,360 --> 00:19:38,600
about Jeff Steadman over 6 1/2 
years, 400 episodes, is like, 

352
00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:45,160
you've become the MC, like you 
just are good at that. 

353
00:19:45,360 --> 00:19:47,720
I'm not saying you weren't good 
at it in the beginning, but 

354
00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,960
you've definitely gotten better 
over time. 

355
00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:54,720
Do you feel that? 
First of all, thank you. 

356
00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:56,280
Checks in the mail. 
I will buy a book. 

357
00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:00,120
Yeah, I think so. 
Look, it comes with like, you 

358
00:20:00,120 --> 00:20:03,880
know, anything else that you 
practice and do enough. 

359
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:08,040
When we first started this 
podcast had no really public 

360
00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:10,360
speaking experience and didn't 
really expect it to do. 

361
00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:12,400
Anywhere near the numbers that 
we're doing now for sure. 

362
00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:14,560
But I think you get more 
comfortable in front of it. 

363
00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:16,640
I will say, you know, I've had 
people ask me, hey, why don't 

364
00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:18,160
you present at a conference, 
right? 

365
00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:21,720
Or something like that. 
I don't really want to do that. 

366
00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:25,280
I'm much more comfortable being 
sort of like that MC or 

367
00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:28,320
moderator type role or, you 
know, have a little fun things 

368
00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:30,560
like that. 
So I don't think I have anything

369
00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:34,720
original to say or ground baking
to like, oh, here's the next big

370
00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:36,920
thing and identity. 
Like, no, I want to have fun and

371
00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:39,680
entertain. 
And I think, you know, I've, 

372
00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:41,760
I've had more practice on it. 
Am I perfect? 

373
00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:44,360
No. 
But I think I'm good enough and 

374
00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:46,720
I'm happy with that. 
And OK, anything else, I'll keep

375
00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:49,080
continuing, continuing to get 
better at it as I stumble over 

376
00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:50,680
my words, you know, trying to 
say that stuff. 

377
00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:54,000
Yeah. 
Look, you and I have done this 

378
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:58,120
400 times at least. 
You know, there is, you have 

379
00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:01,480
thousands of hours at this point
of audio. 

380
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:07,480
And so if you listen to Episode 
1, it sounds like Episode 1, you

381
00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:09,800
listen to this episode, yeah, 
it's going to sound more 

382
00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,600
polished, more natural. 
The quality is going to be 

383
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:14,560
better and, and pretty much 
every front, right, Things like 

384
00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:17,080
that. 
The only way you get to that is 

385
00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:23,200
by doing episodes 2 to 399. 
And really the same comes 

386
00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:25,320
through like, you know, 
knowledge in any space, right? 

387
00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:27,400
If you're a basketball player, 
you shoot free throws unless 

388
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,320
you're Shaq until until you're 
good at them, right? 

389
00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:32,360
You know, if you're a 
quarterback, you're throwing 

390
00:21:32,360 --> 00:21:35,400
balls in into, you know, tires 
and, you know, name the 

391
00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:37,600
profession and identity is 
another one of those is like, 

392
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:39,280
you have to stay on top of it 
and keep doing it. 

393
00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:42,360
And, you know, podcasting is no 
different. 

394
00:21:42,360 --> 00:21:46,560
It's just presenting and, you 
know, just continuing to kind of

395
00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:48,880
develop your own voice. 
Yeah. 

396
00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:53,000
So I was thinking one of the 
things I've learned about doing 

397
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,600
interviews and every once in 
awhile and like you said 

398
00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:59,320
earlier, like you might come for
the show, I might cover the show

399
00:22:00,120 --> 00:22:02,440
ideal scenarios where we're both
here. 

400
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:06,760
But one of the things that I've 
learned is that I know it's not 

401
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:08,480
that I like to hear myself 
speak. 

402
00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:12,520
It's just that I feel like, oh, 
I just said something now I need

403
00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:14,920
to explain what I just said. 
And then I say it and then I'm 

404
00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:19,000
like, oh, further explanation. 
That's kind of like my natural 

405
00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:22,960
way of being. 
But I found that sometimes it's 

406
00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:25,200
better just to ask the 
open-ended question and then 

407
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:31,120
shut up, especially if the guest
is kind of like able to, to work

408
00:22:31,120 --> 00:22:34,840
within that framework. 
And so I found being a, a good 

409
00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:38,400
interviewer, sometimes just 
asking a question, then letting 

410
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:43,080
the person answer it. 
But I will say, so one of the 

411
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:47,120
things with the podcast is like,
sometimes we have CE OS on, 

412
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:50,280
sometimes we have very technical
people. 

413
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:55,120
And I think we we aim for some 
level of consistency, right? 

414
00:22:55,120 --> 00:22:59,560
So I think we've gotten better 
at kind of organizing things and

415
00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:03,480
preparing our guests. 
Like, hey, a good answer goes 

416
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:05,800
something like 2 minutes, 2 to 3
minutes. 

417
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:09,400
And then, you know, let us ask 
some follow up questions and 

418
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,240
stuff like that. 
And it's knowing when to 

419
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,320
interrupt. 
And I think we both tried to 

420
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:18,160
avoid interrupting people, but 
sometimes you're, you're 

421
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:20,320
throwing them a lifeline by 
interrupting, right? 

422
00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:25,720
Like they just are to the point 
where they're afraid to stop 

423
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:29,760
talking because then you're 
going to have that, that moment 

424
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:32,680
of silence where it's like an 
uncomfortable silence. 

425
00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:35,560
I think that's a natural 
reaction is I think people think

426
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:37,640
that, you know, you can't have 
dead air. 

427
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,120
And I think it goes back to like
the radio days is like dead air 

428
00:23:40,120 --> 00:23:41,480
is the enemy. 
I can't have that. 

429
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,040
Look, you know, people will 
talk, people have stories to 

430
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:48,960
share. 
I'm very, you know, fortunate to

431
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:51,080
be able to have those 
conversations with all these 

432
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:52,240
people that we've met over the 
years. 

433
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:56,120
And you know, we again, I'll, 
I'll pull down the kick down the

434
00:23:56,120 --> 00:23:57,880
4th wall here. 
And I'm sure we have a lot of 

435
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:00,560
people listening who have been 
guests on this episode. 

436
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:02,400
They kind of know what the 
process is that we go through 

437
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,200
like do guest prep and kind of 
get things going. 

438
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,680
But you know, to that point of 
like long answers, one of the 

439
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:12,160
things on our, you know, 
prerecorded checklist is have 

440
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:15,960
something to drink nearby 
because I know you and, and you 

441
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:18,600
know, we have like 17 things on 
this checklist. 

442
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,240
I'm looking at it right now. 
And they are all there because 

443
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,160
of a real life thing that has 
happened. 

444
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:27,160
That's like, OK, we've got to 
like add that to our thing to 

445
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,160
make sure that, you know, not 
only us right as the people on 

446
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:32,520
the show, but anyone who comes 
on the show knows like we know 

447
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:34,760
what to expect. 
So I've seen the drink nearby 

448
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:38,480
because we've had situation 
where somebody talked for like 5

449
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:42,120
minutes and you know, their 
throat was basically gone at the

450
00:24:42,120 --> 00:24:45,520
four minute mark and they just 
kind of kept plowing on through 

451
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:48,240
it rather than, you know, taking
a break and allowing like the 

452
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:50,320
conversation to breathe and take
a sip of water and stuff like 

453
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,120
that. 
So yeah, I think, I think being 

454
00:24:53,120 --> 00:24:58,200
able to ask questions and let 
the person answer is, is super 

455
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:00,440
important for everybody. 
It's not just podcast, right? 

456
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,080
You're talking to anybody, 
you're asking that question. 

457
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,960
Listen, don't just don't just 
ask a question and then 

458
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:09,240
immediately have your next 
thought ready to go, right? 

459
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:11,880
Be in the conversation, be 
dynamic, be part of it. 

460
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:14,800
I think that's something that, 
you know, I think I, you know 

461
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:16,840
myself, I'm sure a lot of people
also struggle with this. 

462
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:18,440
Like you just want to get to the
next point. 

463
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:20,080
Like, no, no, no. 
I just asked a question. 

464
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:22,600
Let me think about that and 
react to it rather than just 

465
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:24,680
waiting for my next turn to 
speak. 

466
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:25,720
That makes sense. 
Yeah. 

467
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:31,840
Yeah, it's certainly that that 
kind of triggered a memory for 

468
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:35,640
me, which was we had a guest who
I thought was going to be a 

469
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:40,040
fantastic speaker there. 
So where I came up with this was

470
00:25:40,360 --> 00:25:44,080
is so you can over prepare. 
You can write like the full 

471
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,720
sentence of the question you 
want to ask or to your point, 

472
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,960
you can be listening and not 
really paint, not really 

473
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:52,520
listening. 
You're hearing the words and 

474
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:54,680
you're thinking about what 
you're going to say. 

475
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,760
Those are both horrible things. 
Sometimes the guests over 

476
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,200
prepare too. 
And it's like, I remember 1 

477
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,520
episode and I'm not obvious. 
If you want to try and figure it

478
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:05,360
out, there's 400 episodes out 
there. 

479
00:26:05,360 --> 00:26:07,520
Listen to all them and you'll 
figure it out. 

480
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:09,920
But and. 
Why you're listening to them? 

481
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:13,080
Hit the Like button. 
Yeah, hit the like 5 stars for 

482
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:20,080
all of them. 
This poor guest basically read 

483
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:25,760
notes the entire episode and it 
was like, Oh my God, like do we 

484
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:29,560
re record this thing? 
And I thought what we didn't, 

485
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:34,920
but it's we always say to 
people, it's presentation is not

486
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:36,800
or I'm sorry, it's not a 
presentation. 

487
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:40,360
It's a discussion and we have to
be in the discussion as well. 

488
00:26:40,360 --> 00:26:44,920
We can't expect that person 
being the in the discussion. 

489
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:48,080
We're just reading questions 
from a sheet of paper. 

490
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:51,520
Look, you know, you're only 
talking to 1,000,000 people a 

491
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,240
year, so don't be nervous. 
I get it, right? 

492
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:55,440
Yeah. 
Some people are covered with 

493
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:56,120
that. 
Some people aren't. 

494
00:26:56,120 --> 00:26:58,000
I mean, there's been times 
where, you know, we'll go 

495
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,280
through a prep session and I'll,
I'll send you a message like, 

496
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:01,760
oh, I don't know how this is 
going to go. 

497
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:05,400
And then, you know, that the 
light kicks on, the star 

498
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:07,800
happens, whatever. 
And the guest is awesome, right?

499
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,080
It's like, oh, OK, I didn't have
to worry about. 

500
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:14,120
Anything that does happen, I 
mean, so the opposite also 

501
00:27:14,120 --> 00:27:15,720
happens. 
So you you have the scenario 

502
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:19,560
that you described, so you do 
the prep session, then you go to

503
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:24,200
record and the person is way 
better in the recording than 

504
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:26,080
they were on the prep. 
And the prep, they weren't 

505
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:31,080
really paying attention or their
camera had a big thumbnail 

506
00:27:31,120 --> 00:27:34,680
thumbprint on it or something. 
They didn't inspire confidence 

507
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:36,160
that it was going to be a good 
conversation. 

508
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,400
Yeah, exactly. 
But you also have the opposite 

509
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:42,880
where the prep session goes 
great and then you get to the 

510
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,480
session. 
Now one of the things I fig I've

511
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:49,440
found is, you know, technology 
issues can be the worst. 

512
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:55,960
I remember 1 episode where we 
were recording with somebody and

513
00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:58,760
it wasn't even their Internet 
bandwidth. 

514
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:02,960
I think their hard drive was so 
full and what do you call it? 

515
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:07,760
Like there's that software that 
that kind of like makes all your

516
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,120
files whole again. 
But oh, fragmentation. 

517
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,960
So if you're their, their drive 
was probably full and fragmented

518
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:17,880
and it couldn't save the video 
and their computer kept 

519
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:19,920
crashing. 
It crashed like 5 times during 

520
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:24,360
the episode and somehow you're 
able to save it and make a 

521
00:28:24,360 --> 00:28:27,720
decent episode out of it. 
I don't know how, but we've had 

522
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:29,640
a few times where things like 
that have happened. 

523
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:32,240
It still happens. 
I mean, you know, there was an 

524
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,800
episode recently where we had 
it, you know, a guest crash a 

525
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:39,160
few times throughout it. 
I challenge you to find where 

526
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:41,720
that happened because I've 
gotten so much better at editing

527
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:46,520
and hiding that kind of stuff. 
Look, we're, we're remote, you 

528
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,280
know, we're doing recording. 
Technology is not going to be an

529
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:50,920
issue. 
And, you know, we've got a 

530
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:52,440
pretty stable platform here that
we're using. 

531
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:56,520
But things happen and, you know,
we'll deal with it. 

532
00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:58,800
It's fine. 
Yeah, it's the meme, right? 

533
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:00,640
Everything's on fire around me. 
This is fine. 

534
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:06,120
Well, the, I think with the 
podcast too, it's like we've 

535
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:08,920
been talking about the early 
days and I'd love to, you know, 

536
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,880
one of the things we prepared 
today was to kind of go through 

537
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:15,160
and what was a major theme for 
each year since we started the 

538
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:17,840
podcast. 
But I think back to this early 

539
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:22,840
days and literally we were 
recording Teams meetings, like 

540
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:27,240
we would just save the, the 
audio recording of Teams or Zoom

541
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:28,920
or something like that. 
And. 

542
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:32,920
Pre pandemic, Zoom that that 
helps you gauge the quality of 

543
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,440
how things were working. 
Yeah. 

544
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:38,880
And just think about it, it's 
like very Internet dependent. 

545
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,720
If your Internet was shopping 
that day, your episode is not 

546
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:44,800
very good. 
And if you have a guest on now 

547
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:48,440
you're talking about three 
people to have to have decent 

548
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:52,600
Wi-Fi connections for the entire
episode to get decent recording.

549
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:57,480
And yeah, it's a, it's actually 
for us to look back and say, 

550
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:02,640
yeah, we only got 100 downloads.
It's a, it's a tough thing to 

551
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:06,000
even wrap my brain around. 
Why someone Our audio quality 

552
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:09,520
was what it was that we would 
get anybody who'd wanted to 

553
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:12,840
download it. 
Well, let's go back year by year

554
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,840
because I think the strength of 
our show has always been the 

555
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:17,800
content, right? 
The quality I think is in a good

556
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:21,840
enough spot, you know, where we 
sound good enough, right? 

557
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,840
And we look slightly worse than 
that, but still good enough for 

558
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:30,320
you to 2019, you know, the year 
of foundations. 

559
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:32,040
Really it was like strategy and 
frameworks. 

560
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,400
Our first episode was 
introduction to an IM strategy 

561
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:40,000
framework and of the, let's see,
26 episodes I think we put out 

562
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,120
that year that was sort of like 
the theme was like a lot of 

563
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:46,760
conversations around strategy 
and how do you build a program 

564
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,280
and how do you set that kind of 
stuff up and what are people 

565
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:51,640
should be thinking about, right,
the people and the process side 

566
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,000
of things. 
And so, you know, those are 

567
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,400
those are the episodes that, you
know, listeners seem to 

568
00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,200
gravitate, you know, even way 
back when in in 2019. 

569
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,480
Yeah. 
You know, I wanted to mention 

570
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:06,680
one other thing, so or two other
things. 

571
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,200
One is the name of the podcast. 
So we've never changed the name 

572
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:14,680
of the podcast. 
I feel like there's a a bit of 

573
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,360
luck there. 
Like identity at the center was 

574
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:21,440
kind of a philosophy that we 
were at a debt free we're all 

575
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,680
working on. 
And the idea being that identity

576
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:26,600
is at the center of 
cybersecurity. 

577
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,680
There's all these cyber tools 
that are in the environment, 

578
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:35,120
including, you know, SIM and 
logging and access management, 

579
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:37,760
and they all depend on an 
identity. 

580
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,880
If you don't have the identity, 
the power of those tools is not 

581
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,120
that great. 
And well, that's the way the 

582
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:46,880
industry has gone. 
Like now all these cyber tools 

583
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:51,680
are becoming identity dependent 
and with that dependency becomes

584
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:56,560
they become so much more useful.
So the name a little bit of luck

585
00:31:56,560 --> 00:32:02,080
because like the industry, like 
put it, you know, made it so, so

586
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,560
perfect. 
And I think The thing is like we

587
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,920
so we've trademarked identity at
the center. 

588
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:12,200
If we hadn't, I may either be an
identity at the Center 

589
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,120
conference or. 
It would be a theme at a 

590
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,520
conference for sure. 
And I've, I have certainly 

591
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:22,000
noticed a few conferences really
stretching like the theme of 

592
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,440
identity and sorry man, identity
center was taken and they had to

593
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:26,880
like come up with an 
alternative. 

594
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:29,280
Identity at the middle. 
Right. 

595
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:33,800
Yeah, so. 
That was for us for being 

596
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,440
trendsetters and ahead of of of 
our times. 

597
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,320
But yeah. 
Yeah, the other thing is people 

598
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,680
ask me a lot. 
I'm sure they ask you, well, how

599
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:46,360
did you start this thing or why 
did you start the podcast? 

600
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:50,920
And I always just tell the 
truth, which it's kind of like 

601
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:54,680
not the most glamorous story. 
I remember you saying because 

602
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:59,120
you and I were working together 
on client work, like every day, 

603
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:00,600
right? 
So you and I would talk every 

604
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:03,800
day and we'd have these like 
really cool identity 

605
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:07,240
conversations. 
Like we're as the industry was 

606
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:12,000
moving and we're moving with it 
where our thoughts are evolving 

607
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,200
and we're having these 
conversations and kind of like 

608
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:19,280
testing each other's limits on 
various topics, right? 

609
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:23,480
And you would say we should 
record this, make a podcast. 

610
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,360
I'm thinking like, I don't know 
about that. 

611
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:29,840
I'm pretty busy. 
I'm pretty busy, man. 

612
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:33,160
And then I think one day he just
said it again. 

613
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:37,400
I was like, fine, let's do it. 
And then we recorded an episode 

614
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,360
and then we recorded the next 
one the next week and the next 

615
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:44,000
one the week. 
Actually, I think Week 2 I 

616
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,320
wasn't available. 
You recorded with Fletcher, 

617
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:51,320
Fletcher Eddington. 
And then I mean, you and I both 

618
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:54,320
did on most of them. 
You know, probably of the 400, 

619
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,640
we probably made like 385 each 
or something like that. 

620
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:03,040
But we've recorded an episode 
every week, at least one episode

621
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:07,080
per week except the two weeks at
the end of the year. 

622
00:34:08,199 --> 00:34:10,880
And I always argue for give me 
another week man. 

623
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:15,080
And you always talk me out of. 
It. 

624
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:17,880
Get back into that editing cave 
nerd and put out another 

625
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:20,560
episode. 
Well, I always give you the 

626
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:23,040
option. 
We can record every day the 

627
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,639
first week of December and just 
we can have a whole bunch of 

628
00:34:26,639 --> 00:34:30,280
episodes build up. 
But that's also not realistic. 

629
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:33,960
So we do take a break. 
And I think partly that break 

630
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:38,360
makes sense because not only do 
we need a break, but our 

631
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:41,480
listeners probably are spending 
time with their family. 

632
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:43,840
How dare they? 
How dare they do that? 

633
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:45,920
We're your family. 
We're your identity family. 

634
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:53,360
Identifam so so yeah, like 
that's really how it started 

635
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:58,840
was, you know, Jeff's idea we 
should record a podcast and my 

636
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,080
brave soul saying, OK, let's do 
it. 

637
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,240
And neither of us liking our 
voice, but just plowing through 

638
00:35:04,240 --> 00:35:05,440
it anyway. 
Oh yeah. 

639
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:09,680
That's that hasn't changed in 
Nobody does, yeah. 

640
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:15,320
But that was 2019 was like 
strategy frameworks. 2020 became

641
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:20,080
more of like career growth and 
like certifications and really 

642
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:22,120
kind of like, OK, how do we make
this? 

643
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:27,320
I am an actual career, right? 
So this was pre CID pro from ID 

644
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:29,240
Pro like that certification 
didn't exist. 

645
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:32,520
We did a really popular episode 
with the Identity Management 

646
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,920
Institute, Henry Begusarian. 
Hopefully I got the name right. 

647
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:40,040
That was all about different IM 
certifications that, you know, 

648
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:41,360
they had. 
They were one of the leaders in 

649
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:45,200
that space went early movers. 
So like a lot of the content 

650
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:49,160
that people seem to gravitate 
were, you know, how do I become 

651
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:53,520
certified in this thing called 
identity and access management? 

652
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:55,960
I don't think digital identity 
was like a thing then. 

653
00:35:55,960 --> 00:36:00,200
It was just, oh, I'm an IM or 
IDM, you know, something like 

654
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:02,680
that. 
And, you know, pandemic, I think

655
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,880
was kind of hitting somewhere 
around that time too, and a lot 

656
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:07,760
of disruptions and, you know, 
we're taking place with that, 

657
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:10,000
but like that. 
Yeah, we were starting to get a 

658
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:12,640
lot of downloads. 
And then the pandemic hit 

659
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:16,480
hardware, they said to everybody
in the world, stop coming to the

660
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:18,560
office. 
People stop listening to the 

661
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,040
podcast in their car. 
And it was like, oh, now we're 

662
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:24,760
back down to like 65 listens per
episode. 

663
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:26,440
I don't have time to listen to a
podcast. 

664
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:32,240
I got to find toilet paper man, 
it was 20. 20 a total aside, but

665
00:36:32,240 --> 00:36:37,960
I remember right after the world
started going to to shit. 

666
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:41,720
The second swear ever made on 
this show. 

667
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:44,440
Right there. 
Well, you can bleep me out. 

668
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:47,480
That was that was leaving. 
That was my first one. 

669
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:49,720
I think the other one was you 
so. 

670
00:36:49,720 --> 00:36:53,360
The first one was a privileged 
access management episode that 

671
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:57,000
we did several years back, and 
our guest asked if she could 

672
00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,960
swear, and I said sure jokingly.
And then she swore. 

673
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:03,720
I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. 
This is a family friendly show. 

674
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:08,520
So anyway, I see this adult man,
he's a what's the neighbor of 

675
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:12,560
mine adult man and his wife and 
they had 6 gallons of milk. 

676
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:15,920
They had no, no children. 
I'm thinking what did you do 

677
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:19,480
with 6 gallons of milk? 
Are you lactose intol? 

678
00:37:20,720 --> 00:37:23,440
It's the new currency for 20/20 
was, you know, the barter 

679
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:25,920
system. 
It was, but I think that's the 

680
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:29,440
exact theme that we had that 
year because, you know, it's, 

681
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:34,040
it's really weird. 
I think back in that time, the 

682
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:39,000
mantra was there's more demand 
for people than there are 

683
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:41,920
people. 
So it was like, hey, folks, 

684
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:45,200
you're having a hard time 
finding a job that has meaning 

685
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:48,440
to you while the water's warm 
over here. 

686
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:52,320
Jump in. 
And then I remember at Identity,

687
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:54,880
we had something going, where do
you remember a lady named 

688
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,320
Elaine? 
And she had brought in a bunch 

689
00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:02,080
of very junior people into the 
company and they were like 

690
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:06,000
learning the trade. 
And we had a few of them on the 

691
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:09,640
show, I think. 
So that was the reason I said 

692
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:12,400
that was kind of funny, is 
because now we're all worried 

693
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:16,160
the AI is going to take our jobs
and that the next generation, 

694
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:19,760
like nobody's hiring new people.
Well, we had some of those 

695
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:21,560
folks. 
We we actually did a Family Feud

696
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:23,840
episode like way back then as 
well. 

697
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:25,760
We did it at a company meeting 
for Identropy. 

698
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:29,480
And you know, you ran this very 
complex set of PowerPoint slides

699
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:32,240
that I had found to use as like 
the game and I sort of MC Ed 

700
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:35,400
that point of it. 
And some of the some of the 

701
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:38,880
answers that we got from our own
companies like identity 

702
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:43,320
professionals, I'm putting that 
in quotation marks were very 

703
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:47,320
suspects. 
But yeah, it was it was an 

704
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:50,160
interesting time. 
Yeah, name your favorite 

705
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:53,880
privileged access management 
platform, Kanye West. 

706
00:38:55,240 --> 00:38:57,560
I remember somebody just said 
Kanye West is like an answer. 

707
00:38:57,560 --> 00:38:59,760
I was like, what? 
That had to be. 

708
00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:02,720
That had to be Fletcher. 
It might have been, but it was a

709
00:39:02,720 --> 00:39:04,560
lot of fun. 
And I think that's was like, all

710
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:07,360
right, Like we got to figure out
how to do this better sometime 

711
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:09,400
in the future. 
And, you know, fortunately we 

712
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:11,080
were able to work something out 
with Fight Alliance. 

713
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:12,920
And, you know, that whole thing 
was. 

714
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:14,960
Fido feud baby. 
Fido feud. 

715
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:17,960
That's Yep. 
So, but yeah, let's see. 

716
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:21,560
So 2020 was or no to 20. 
Yeah, 2020 was like 

717
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:24,240
certifications and like 
professionalizing. 

718
00:39:24,240 --> 00:39:30,080
I am 2021 was really about like 
cloud stuff, cloud identity. 

719
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:32,000
I think there was a lot of 
people still figuring out how to

720
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:36,240
things like AWS, you know, work.
How are we managing permissions 

721
00:39:36,240 --> 00:39:39,360
in Azure and GCP and all the 
different cloud environments 

722
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:40,640
that were out there. 
So there was like a lot of 

723
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:44,680
content that was around managing
identity in the cloud. 

724
00:39:45,240 --> 00:39:49,400
And you know, our top episode 
that year was episode one O 1, 

725
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:54,760
AWS Cognito and CID Pro. 
We did that with what did we do 

726
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:59,040
that with? 
I have to look and see Sarah, I 

727
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:01,240
think it was. 
Yeah, that was like the most 

728
00:40:01,240 --> 00:40:04,000
popular episode for like years, 
right? 

729
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:07,480
Yeah. 
And so, you know, people were, I

730
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:11,200
think were interested in, you 
know, what is this thing called,

731
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:13,000
you know, Cognito. 
So people were trying to figure 

732
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:15,440
that out. 
And then, yeah, it was just 

733
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:17,520
Sarah Cicchetti. 
Sorry, There we go. 

734
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:21,560
Yeah. 
And then the CID protos, CID Pro

735
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:25,240
certification was just being 
launched kind of around that 

736
00:40:25,240 --> 00:40:27,040
time tone. 
And obviously, you know, ID Pro 

737
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:30,720
has been such a big part of this
this show, right? 

738
00:40:30,720 --> 00:40:33,880
We're the official podcast for 
that ID pro.org, you know, go 

739
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:35,760
sign, sign up, be a member just 
like Jim and I. 

740
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:39,440
But that was a very popular 
episode because it kind of 

741
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:42,600
blended a couple things. 
It was the need to certify 

742
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:44,800
talents, right? 
To demonstrate we've got 

743
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:47,640
certification in space just like
other parts of security. 

744
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:51,880
And then also this crazy idea of
like I am in the cloud like what

745
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:54,640
does that even? 
Mean well that's it. 

746
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:59,040
I mean, you know, I think 
organizations that had 

747
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:03,560
traditionally had on Prem 
infrastructure were in mass 

748
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:05,760
moving that infrastructure to 
the cloud. 

749
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:08,080
I kind of remember in the 
beginning of the cloud, it was 

750
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:10,960
like, Oh yeah, we're just 
running some dev servers there. 

751
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,960
And then all of a sudden it was 
like, Oh no, we're doing DevOps 

752
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:16,560
for our production pipeline to 
AWS. 

753
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:20,480
And it's like, oh, wow, that 
happened pretty quick. 

754
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:23,920
And now the identity 
practitioner needed to get their

755
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:28,240
arms around it. 
Man, I can't believe that that 

756
00:41:28,240 --> 00:41:32,560
was that was all happening, you 
know, underway while the podcast

757
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:34,840
was running. 
But it doesn't make sense. 

758
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:40,080
And now we're in like a, you 
know, another era where you see 

759
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:44,560
AI, the big AI wave coming to 
potentially replace a lot of 

760
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:48,600
infrastructure. 
Yeah, we're going to talk about 

761
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:51,400
2026, but I'm going to keep the 
the year is rolling here. 

762
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:55,720
So if 2021 was a year of cloud, 
like for an identity standpoint,

763
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:58,240
2022 was really about the year 
of governance. 

764
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:02,080
So there was a lot of like 
process and compliance type 

765
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:03,520
things. 
And IGA was certainly part of 

766
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:05,280
that. 
We did an episode with Paul 

767
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:09,760
Mazzara, episode 190, which was 
around identity governance. 

768
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:11,560
That was like our most popular 
episode that year. 

769
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:14,680
And so the assumption was at 
that point was like, oh, OK, 

770
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:16,200
programs are starting to figure 
it out. 

771
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:19,480
We're starting to get our handle
on our people and this being a 

772
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:21,720
career. 
And, you know, now we've got 

773
00:42:21,720 --> 00:42:23,080
this. 
We've had to manage the cloud 

774
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:25,720
permissions because that was 
like, oh, we've got to figure 

775
00:42:25,720 --> 00:42:27,080
that out. 
Like right now what's happening,

776
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:30,760
let's take a step back and make 
sure the permissions across the 

777
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:33,240
board are being governed, right?
So kind of like the space of 

778
00:42:33,240 --> 00:42:34,880
identity governance and 
administration, right? 

779
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:36,240
So players in that kind of 
space. 

780
00:42:36,240 --> 00:42:40,720
So kind of interesting to see 
2022 kind of clean up the work 

781
00:42:40,720 --> 00:42:46,640
that was done in 2021 which? 
Is definitely, it's definitely 

782
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:48,720
about cleaning up. 
It was, you know, a lot of 

783
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:52,800
organizations move quickly 
during COVID to open things up. 

784
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:57,960
But I think overall it also 
opened a lot of eyes to like, 

785
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:01,200
here's the gaps that we have in 
terms of our preventative 

786
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:05,040
processes to make sure that 
people have the right access. 

787
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:09,280
And I really, I think one of the
things that we were the voice 

788
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:12,240
for was folks, now's the time to
do this. 

789
00:43:12,240 --> 00:43:17,080
Because if you wait and you find
yourself in 20252026, you're 

790
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:18,400
going to be way behind the 
curve. 

791
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:22,360
Because now what you're seeing 
happening is this kind of real 

792
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:28,920
time intelligence where identity
and signals are kind of becoming

793
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:33,440
where, you know, organization 
have the opportunity to get 

794
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:36,360
ahead of threats. 
But The thing is of like, you're

795
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:39,440
still fighting the war of like, 
hey, we're trying to get IGA in 

796
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:42,200
the door, man, you're, you're 
way behind. 

797
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:46,360
And so hopefully your 
organization, if you're 

798
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:48,320
listening, you've taken care of 
this. 

799
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:51,240
But that was one of the times 
where I think we're kind of 

800
00:43:51,240 --> 00:43:53,960
ringing the alarm like now's the
time to do this. 

801
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:56,480
And by the way, I did want to 
say one thing about Paul 

802
00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:59,440
Mazzera. 
So Paul's now at Gartner. 

803
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:04,320
We probably won't get Paul back 
on the show until he retires or.

804
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:08,080
We did majority rules, you know,
maybe we do something at the at 

805
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:10,200
a conference and he can get him 
on stage for something. 

806
00:44:10,720 --> 00:44:12,680
They have very specific rules 
around how that works. 

807
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:14,720
But now I know what they are, 
maybe we can work that out. 

808
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:20,160
Absolutely. 
There was a lot going on. 

809
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:25,280
And so 2023 was the year of 
security conversions. 

810
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:27,840
So we saw like a lot of 
different tool sets start to 

811
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:30,240
come into things. 
So like identity security 

812
00:44:30,240 --> 00:44:32,160
started to become a term that 
was out there. 

813
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:34,640
You know, we started to see 
things along the lines of like 

814
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:38,960
ITDR and ISPM and sort of 
precursors right to those kind 

815
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:43,640
of spaces. 
And around that .2023 we kind of

816
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:47,080
hit 100,000 downloads as a show.
It's like, oh, it's like a major

817
00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:49,200
milestone for us. 
I think I put one of the few 

818
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:51,760
times I put like a social 
graphic on Twitter or something 

819
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:54,120
at the time around, you know, 
celebrating that. 

820
00:44:54,240 --> 00:44:57,720
And we actually were self funded
throughout that entire time. 

821
00:44:57,720 --> 00:44:59,800
And then we started to do 
sponsored episodes, you know, to

822
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:02,880
help with, with the cost of 
running, you know, the episodes 

823
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:06,120
and show and stuff like that. 
And believe it or not, our top 

824
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:09,800
episode in 2023 was a sponsor 
Spotlight episode with Sunray. 

825
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:13,880
Was that our first sponsor or 
no, No, I'm sorry. 

826
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:18,480
No, we it wasn't our first, but 
Sunri did come back into a 

827
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:21,960
second one as well. 
Yeah, and I think people were 

828
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:28,320
interested to learn more about 
other, other identity security 

829
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:32,600
tools in the space, right. 
It wasn't IGA, it wasn't Pam, it

830
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:35,960
wasn't another IDP. 
It was something else. 

831
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:37,800
And there was current, you know,
definitely an appetite for 

832
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:38,920
people to kind of learn about 
that. 

833
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:40,960
And you know it helped us, 
right? 

834
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:43,320
Help helps me pay the costs 
pretty. 

835
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:45,880
Sure. 
Our first sponsored episode was 

836
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:49,640
Conductor One with Alex Bovey. 
That sounds right. 

837
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:54,000
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
So that was a, that was a big 

838
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:56,960
turning point for the podcast we
had. 

839
00:45:56,960 --> 00:45:59,200
We were still not doing video at
that point. 

840
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:03,120
I think, I think we started 
video in 2024. 

841
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:07,600
But I actually, I think we 
started experimenting with video

842
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:13,280
by the end of 23, but we weren't
sure if like this is something 

843
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:16,960
we wanted to commit to, right. 
But then at the beginning of 24,

844
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:21,920
we made the the announcement. 
Yeah, I think convergence was a 

845
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:26,520
big thing that year. 
I think a lot of these new 

846
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:31,000
technology spaces and I remember
as a consultant thinking, you 

847
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:34,880
know, I'm, I'm concerned with 
making a recommendation about 

848
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:38,720
something that's new to my, my 
clients, right? 

849
00:46:38,720 --> 00:46:43,240
Because what if that becomes 
unimportant or kind of kicked to

850
00:46:43,240 --> 00:46:45,160
the curb? 
Like remember we were talking 

851
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:49,000
about UBA all the time, like 
user behavior analytics. 

852
00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:51,840
It's not from a space that 
people refer to anymore. 

853
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:55,000
And I'm not saying that it 
doesn't exist at all. 

854
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:58,160
What I'm saying is it's, it's 
not making any headlines. 

855
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:01,240
So if we're making big 
recommendations like, Hey, you 

856
00:47:01,240 --> 00:47:04,680
need to do this thing because 
the promise was there. 

857
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:08,840
And I think a lot of what you're
seeing happening with like ITDR,

858
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:14,680
it's dependent on, you know, 
recognizing a user's normal 

859
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:18,640
behavior, knowing when they're 
doing something that breaks that

860
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:24,240
mold, and then taking action on 
it, doing a response so they're 

861
00:47:24,240 --> 00:47:26,640
on the right track. 
But if you went out and told 

862
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:30,600
your clients like hey, you need 
to, you need to be on this UVA 

863
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:33,880
thing, you could have muddle on 
your face later. 

864
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:37,960
Yeah, it was it, it's really 
kind of an evolutionary thing. 

865
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:39,960
It's like where I've, I've said 
this before where I think like 

866
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:44,120
ITDR started as user behavior 
analytics, or if you wanted to 

867
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:46,200
use user and entity behavior 
analytics, right? 

868
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:49,360
This other thing is kind of 
evolved into that while you're 

869
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:50,440
talking. 
I went and looked it up. 

870
00:47:50,720 --> 00:47:52,600
Sunri was our first sponsor 
episode. 

871
00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:55,920
We did that December 13th with 
Sandy Byrd, which was a fun one.

872
00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:58,600
We had a great conversation and 
then we started to do more and 

873
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:00,920
more of those. 
And you know, I think the one 

874
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:03,800
thing that's been nice about 
those sponsor Spotlight episodes

875
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:07,800
is, and this is something that I
have learned over the years of 

876
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:11,400
doing this, there are way too 
many technology companies for me

877
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:14,720
to even keep up with. 
It used to be manageable, like, 

878
00:48:14,720 --> 00:48:16,360
Oh yeah, I know all the IJ 
players. 

879
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:18,760
Not anymore. 
Like there's just too many of 

880
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:20,760
them and new ones are popping up
every week. 

881
00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:24,600
Same thing for Pam, same ID. 
PS A little bit more mature, but

882
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:28,080
occasionally I'll see a new like
IDP type solution. 

883
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:31,120
But now you've got things like 
ISPMITDR. 

884
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:34,280
What was the one that we talked 
about intent based access 

885
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:35,680
control. 
You know, we we talked about 

886
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:39,880
with gal from plane ID that'll 
be coming up in an episode, you 

887
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:42,040
know, stuff like that. 
There's always something new. 

888
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:45,760
And for for all the sponsors 
that have been, you know, we're 

889
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:47,760
grateful for them for like 
donating and helping us, you 

890
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:49,680
know, keep the show afloat and 
running. 

891
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:52,680
It's been a really learning 
opportunity for me to also say 

892
00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:55,240
like, OK, our normal episodes 
vendor neutral. 

893
00:48:55,240 --> 00:48:59,040
Like we don't pitch product. 
We don't even advertise what we 

894
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:01,320
do. 
A lot of people think that we 

895
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:04,080
are podcasters 100% of the time 
when it couldn't be far from the

896
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:05,520
truth. 
Like we've been identity 

897
00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:08,880
consultants the whole time and 
we've maybe done too good of a 

898
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:11,800
job of hiding the fact, which I 
guess is a good thing. 

899
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:13,360
It's like, hey, this is vendor 
neutral. 

900
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:15,360
You're not getting punched in 
the face every 3 minutes with 

901
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:18,920
like, you know, buy a, buy a 
mattress or, you know, here's a 

902
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:22,240
protein shake or, you know, buy 
our services, you know, stuff 

903
00:49:22,240 --> 00:49:24,840
like that. 
But it's been, it's been nice to

904
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:27,040
be able to kind of take the 
gloves off on those sponsor 

905
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:29,440
episodes and ask question, tell 
me about your product. 

906
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:33,400
Very similar to like going up to
a booth at a conference or you 

907
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:36,120
know, hey, some salesperson 
reaches out and say, Hey, can we

908
00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:37,880
show you our product for 45 
minutes, right. 

909
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:40,480
And tell us about it. 
So, you know, it's, it's been a 

910
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:41,680
great way for me to keep up with
that. 

911
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:44,320
And I think people have enjoyed 
that as well. 

912
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:47,720
Judges based on episode numbers 
like our sponsor episodes do 

913
00:49:47,720 --> 00:49:50,200
just as well as our quote UN 
quote normal episodes. 

914
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:56,680
Yeah, You know, I think I was, 
you know, sometimes you think 

915
00:49:56,680 --> 00:49:59,880
there's going to be resistance. 
I thought there'd be resistance 

916
00:49:59,880 --> 00:50:03,880
from our sponsors, like, hey, 
you know, I'm paying, I'm 

917
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:06,840
donating for this 45 minutes, 
right? 

918
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:08,640
I want to talk about my product 
the whole time. 

919
00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:12,000
That's absolutely not been the 
way it's gone. 

920
00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:15,640
Pretty much everyone who's come 
on the show, and I shouldn't say

921
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:19,640
pretty much, I think it's 100% 
of our sponsors are like, we 

922
00:50:19,640 --> 00:50:22,360
want to do a regular episode, 
but we want to mention our 

923
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:26,720
product and like how we do it. 
But you guys have a formula that

924
00:50:26,720 --> 00:50:29,040
works. 
The formula that works is like 

925
00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:32,240
it's not a infomercial. 
It's educational. 

926
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:35,960
Hopefully it's entertaining. 
Hopefully, you know, with the 

927
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:40,000
sponsored episodes, it's like 
people get to go on saying this.

928
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:42,040
Something I want to do further 
investigation on. 

929
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:44,840
I'm going to reach out to this 
company or they can watch him be

930
00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:46,680
like, yeah, I'm glad I listened 
to this. 

931
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:48,560
They don't have my e-mail 
address. 

932
00:50:48,560 --> 00:50:50,080
They're not going to be bugging 
me. 

933
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:53,080
I don't have it. 
This doesn't scratch the itch 

934
00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:57,760
that I have. 
Yeah, I mean, it's perfectly, 

935
00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:02,400
perfectly put, no notes. 
All right. 

936
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:05,040
So 2023 was also like a lot of 
convergence, right? 

937
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:06,600
As I mentioned, like the 
security tool and stuff like 

938
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:09,280
that. 
It feels like 2024 was a lot of 

939
00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:12,400
like privileged access 
management stuff, protecting the

940
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:14,400
keys to the Kingdom, those kinds
of ideas. 

941
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:18,560
Our top episode that year was 
episode 294 navigating 

942
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:22,560
privileged access management. 
And you know, there was just a 

943
00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:25,800
lot of growth that year. 
I think we started to hit more 

944
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:27,520
conferences. 
You know, we went from like 

945
00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:33,480
100,000 to I think by the time 
2024 was done, we were already 

946
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:36,640
over like 400,000. 
So we had like a 400% growth in 

947
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:39,560
that year in downloads. 
I think a lot of it was, you 

948
00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:41,960
know, being at conferences and 
people starting to pick up on 

949
00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:43,520
stuff like that. 
But it seemed, for whatever 

950
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:47,440
reason, like Pam was 2024's 
theme. 

951
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:50,440
Yeah. 
I mean, here's one thing about 

952
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:55,440
the podcast, right, is that we 
tried to keep our pulse on 

953
00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:58,120
everything that's going on, keep
a pulse of everything that's 

954
00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:02,080
going on. 
So we'll, we had episodes in 24 

955
00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:10,600
about customer, IE about IGA and
also the the newer technologies,

956
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:14,280
privileged access management, I 
think kept coming up or is 

957
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:17,480
probably if you had to pick a 
theme, that's what it would be 

958
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:21,800
because of the breaches. 
You know, it's like what was 

959
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:25,040
happening in the world at that 
time is like companies were 

960
00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:29,560
getting exposed, ending up on 
the front page, becoming the top

961
00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:34,200
story on CNBC because they got 
breached and they either paid a 

962
00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:37,680
ransom or, you know, their 
business got shot down. 

963
00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:43,200
And usually if you tie those all
the way back, the bad guys got 

964
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:46,880
their hands on a privileged 
credential and we're over able 

965
00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:50,800
to overtake some pretty 
important infrastructure and 

966
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:56,360
maybe shut the company down. 
So decision makers, senior 

967
00:52:56,360 --> 00:53:02,040
people were willing to invest in
solutions that kind of help 

968
00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:04,080
prevent those things from 
happening. 

969
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:07,400
Yeah, Again, I think a little 
bit of like clean up from prior 

970
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:09,320
years. 
You know, we saw like a lot of 

971
00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:12,040
MFA adoption the pandemic years 
and it's like, OK, we've got 

972
00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:13,840
that solved. 
We think we, we think we've got 

973
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:16,600
authentication good enough. 
Now let's start to look at 

974
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:19,040
things elsewhere. 
Yeah, yeah. 

975
00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:20,560
I mean, I think you're right on 
with that. 

976
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:23,960
It's like there's the cleanup 
and we spend time talking about 

977
00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:27,920
like, hey, for the practitioners
that are out there and you're 

978
00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:30,680
breaking your axe trying to fix 
these problems. 

979
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:33,080
Like we have episodes that are 
dedicated to it. 

980
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:36,400
I mean, over the years we've 
done episodes on role based 

981
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:39,120
access control. 
It's not sexy, right? 

982
00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:42,160
And we've been doing it since 
before we were doing podcast, 

983
00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:45,480
but it's still something that 
practitioners in the field are 

984
00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:47,720
breaking their acts like 
implementing. 

985
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:50,400
But it's the same time we'll 
have somebody like Annie and 

986
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:53,760
Glazer come on and he'll talk 
about 0 sending privileges. 

987
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:56,440
So it's like, OK, this 
interesting because now we're 

988
00:53:56,440 --> 00:53:58,920
talking about what's coming 
next, right? 

989
00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:03,240
And a lot of times, like, you 
know, some companies says, 

990
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:07,160
here's what's happening now. 
But for a lot of US who are the 

991
00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:11,120
practitioners and breaking our 
acts in the world, it's and it's

992
00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:14,920
listen to somebody like Ian or 
an Eve or somebody like that 

993
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:18,280
who's talking about, hey, these 
are the things that are up next.

994
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:21,000
Yeah. 
And I think sometimes what you 

995
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:24,720
end up seeing, a lot of 
conference talks are sort of 

996
00:54:24,720 --> 00:54:28,880
like the future. 
And so it takes time for those 

997
00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:31,920
concepts to filter into the real
world, right? 

998
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:36,480
Not many companies can afford to
be bleeding edge on 100% of all 

999
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:39,400
I am functions across the board.
Like they have to pick and 

1000
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:40,760
choose. 
And so they say, OK, well this 

1001
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:43,960
year we're going to try and 
tackle IGA and we're going to 

1002
00:54:44,040 --> 00:54:47,200
work on that for the next, you 
know, well, 18 months to three 

1003
00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:48,560
years, right, Whatever it looks 
like. 

1004
00:54:48,920 --> 00:54:51,480
And that's like, OK, we've got 
some breathing room now there. 

1005
00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:54,680
Let's improve our Pam and then 
let's let's go back to 

1006
00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:58,520
authentication and start working
on pass keys and replacing, you 

1007
00:54:58,520 --> 00:55:00,600
know, legacy MFA, right, things 
like that. 

1008
00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:03,680
And so as much as you go to 
conferences and you hear about 

1009
00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:06,440
all these great ideas and 
they're, they're needed because 

1010
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:10,800
they have to start somewhere, it
takes a while for, you know, 

1011
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:13,960
businesses to catch up to that. 
That's right. 

1012
00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:21,360
So 2024 privilege access 2025 
was really about frictionless 

1013
00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:23,600
authentication. 
So what I mean by that is we saw

1014
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:26,920
a lot more uptake in like pass 
keys, improving user 

1015
00:55:26,920 --> 00:55:30,560
experiences, you know, 
identifying, you know, who 

1016
00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:33,960
people are when they need to get
something done, whether it's, 

1017
00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:36,480
you know, calling a help desk, 
whatever it may be. 

1018
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:40,320
Our top episode was the one we 
did with Ori from Trusona. 

1019
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:43,680
So episode 360. 
That will always be a memorable 

1020
00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:46,200
one for me because one Ori is a 
great speaker. 

1021
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:47,760
He's he's entertaining in his 
own right. 

1022
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:49,120
He's just a very interesting 
guy. 

1023
00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:51,520
They have, you know, a very 
interesting product. 

1024
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:54,840
It's a good product. 
It works and you know, he's put 

1025
00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:56,360
up money. 
Like this is the first time we 

1026
00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:59,960
ever had like a sponsor say come
break our stuff. 

1027
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:02,360
I won't use the S word, come 
break our stuff. 

1028
00:56:02,920 --> 00:56:07,720
If you can find a hole in it, 
there's a $10,000 bug Bunny for 

1029
00:56:07,720 --> 00:56:09,320
that. 
That's the first time anybody 

1030
00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:11,200
has ever come on the show like 
put their money where their 

1031
00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:13,080
mouth was. 
And so I think it was for like a

1032
00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:16,280
month they ran this and as far 
as I'm aware, nobody was able to

1033
00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:18,040
break it. 
You know, you could have won 

1034
00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:20,920
$10,000 and a slide whistle for 
for Maury. 

1035
00:56:21,880 --> 00:56:24,000
That was a lot of fun, right? 
And I think that kind of shows 

1036
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:26,880
like, hey, there is, there is a 
need here for identity 

1037
00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:29,640
verification for a bunch of 
different things and come poke 

1038
00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:31,560
holes in it. 
And and I hope that we get more 

1039
00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:33,960
opportunities like that in the 
future to be able to kind of 

1040
00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:37,160
have some more fun with that, 
but address like real problems 

1041
00:56:37,160 --> 00:56:40,440
like that. 
Yeah, no, I mean, one of the 

1042
00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:44,520
cool things that you're right is
like that you and I got get to 

1043
00:56:44,520 --> 00:56:50,000
do because of the podcast 
meeting people like Ori getting 

1044
00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:53,520
behind the scenes, look at the 
technology that he has. 

1045
00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:57,560
I was like, man, why? 
Why didn't somebody invent this 

1046
00:56:57,560 --> 00:57:03,720
like 1520 years ago when, you 
know, I was doing end user 

1047
00:57:03,720 --> 00:57:07,880
support and you could say you 
could see like, hey, this person

1048
00:57:08,080 --> 00:57:10,440
says they're calling from 
California, but they're really 

1049
00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:15,240
in Vietnam because I can look on
the map and see physically where

1050
00:57:15,240 --> 00:57:18,120
they're located. 
So that was cool. 

1051
00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:21,520
But I thought 2025 was like, I 
don't know. 

1052
00:57:21,520 --> 00:57:23,960
I felt like it was the year of 
identity at the center. 

1053
00:57:24,960 --> 00:57:27,680
The podcast really took off this
year. 

1054
00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:32,400
Or almost 1,000,000 downloads. 
Million downloads almost in one 

1055
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:34,560
year. 
That's mind blowing. 

1056
00:57:34,560 --> 00:57:38,720
I hope we can at least duplicate
that this year, if not do 

1057
00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:41,840
better. 
I think you're right. 

1058
00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:44,000
The frictionless authentication 
was huge. 

1059
00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:47,040
I think there's just so much 
stuff happening in this space. 

1060
00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:52,600
I think, you know, the industry 
was starting to say, all right, 

1061
00:57:52,840 --> 00:57:57,200
we've we've been talking about 
for a while like 00 trust and 

1062
00:57:57,200 --> 00:58:01,920
every product was more zero 
trust and now started to become 

1063
00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:07,200
in 25 the with AI. 
So is AI for I am. 

1064
00:58:08,560 --> 00:58:10,440
I think we're just going to see 
more and more of that. 

1065
00:58:11,160 --> 00:58:13,880
Yeah, I mean, definitely like, 
you know, AI has kind of taken 

1066
00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:16,800
over the last year. 
It's been, it's been a thread I 

1067
00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:19,320
think through every conversation
we've had for the last year or 

1068
00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:22,440
so. 
And so let's kind of wrap this 

1069
00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:26,760
up with like 2026 is the year of
what, you know, it's February 

1070
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:29,560
when this episode comes out. 
We've got a handful of episodes.

1071
00:58:30,680 --> 00:58:35,000
It seems to me like a gentic 
identity is going to be like the

1072
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:37,360
theme for this year. 
What do you think? 

1073
00:58:38,360 --> 00:58:43,440
I think it is to the point that 
when we do the 500th episode, 

1074
00:58:44,200 --> 00:58:46,920
it's going to seem like, oh, 
it's so obvious. 

1075
00:58:46,960 --> 00:58:53,680
I think the agentic AI is moving
so fast and now AI is able to 

1076
00:58:53,680 --> 00:58:58,280
write its own code that I think 
organizations are going to start

1077
00:58:58,280 --> 00:59:02,760
re platforming applications in 
such a way that it's going to go

1078
00:59:02,760 --> 00:59:05,320
fast. 
And maybe re platforming isn't 

1079
00:59:05,360 --> 00:59:09,320
even what's going to happen. 
Maybe it's just that 

1080
00:59:09,960 --> 00:59:13,880
organizations, you know, we used
to do build versus buy analysis 

1081
00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:17,800
in IT like 2025 years ago. 
And that got to the point where 

1082
00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:22,040
it was like who the heck would 
ever build their own IT 

1083
00:59:22,120 --> 00:59:25,560
applications? 
I've seen a resurgence of it. 

1084
00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:32,480
I'm seeing organizations, my 
clients build applications in 

1085
00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:33,280
AI. 
Why? 

1086
00:59:33,280 --> 00:59:36,040
Because they can build them way 
cheaper than they can buy them. 

1087
00:59:37,080 --> 00:59:42,400
This need to have AI built in or
I'm sorry, I am built into the, 

1088
00:59:42,720 --> 00:59:45,160
you can't just forget about the 
security. 

1089
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:48,960
So The thing is it's moving so 
fast. 

1090
00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:51,880
I don't know what it's going to 
look like, you know, 12 years, 

1091
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:56,920
12 months out, much less, you 
know, 2-3 years out, I mean. 

1092
00:59:57,440 --> 00:59:59,120
I mean, it's hard to predict 
anything in this space. 

1093
00:59:59,120 --> 01:00:01,000
It's the one thing I've learned 
over the years is like, just 

1094
01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:03,240
when you think you're getting 
comfortable and like, oh, I kind

1095
01:00:03,240 --> 01:00:06,240
of got a handle on it. 
No, something new comes along 

1096
01:00:06,240 --> 01:00:08,640
and pulls it out. 
It's just, it's part of it. 

1097
01:00:08,640 --> 01:00:11,200
But you know, AI is just that 
thing. 

1098
01:00:11,320 --> 01:00:13,800
It'll be another thing, you 
know, episode 500. 

1099
01:00:14,320 --> 01:00:16,080
Well, I think so. 
It's another. 

1100
01:00:16,400 --> 01:00:20,600
It's another tool that we're 
grappling with to figure out how

1101
01:00:20,600 --> 01:00:24,040
to leverage it, how to secure 
it, how to use it in any number 

1102
01:00:24,040 --> 01:00:27,920
of ways, both good and bad. 
It will just become, you know, 

1103
01:00:27,920 --> 01:00:30,880
like the calculator or the 
Internet or other things, you 

1104
01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:32,720
know, it's going to be very 
disruptive. 

1105
01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:34,720
We just got to figure out how to
how to work with it. 

1106
01:00:34,720 --> 01:00:38,040
It's not like it's going away 
like that cat is out of the bag.

1107
01:00:39,560 --> 01:00:45,640
Yeah, I just don't know if it's 
like just another revolution or 

1108
01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:50,760
it's like the revolution. 
I mean, you know, from things 

1109
01:00:50,760 --> 01:00:54,520
I've been hearing and 
researching, and I listen to a 

1110
01:00:54,520 --> 01:00:59,440
lot of podcasts, especially 
about AI is, you know, 

1111
01:00:59,920 --> 01:01:03,560
especially like it seems like 
Anthropic and Clod are the ones 

1112
01:01:03,560 --> 01:01:07,240
that get pointed to the most in 
terms of its ability to just 

1113
01:01:07,240 --> 01:01:12,160
write really good code. 
And it's just going to take a 

1114
01:01:12,160 --> 01:01:15,520
lot of jobs away from 
developers. 

1115
01:01:15,600 --> 01:01:20,920
And then it's going to be able 
to write applications 24 hours a

1116
01:01:20,920 --> 01:01:23,440
day. 
I mean, people can't do that. 

1117
01:01:23,440 --> 01:01:25,400
People can't work 24 hours a 
day. 

1118
01:01:25,680 --> 01:01:29,680
So if it's already starting to 
do that now, where's it going to

1119
01:01:29,680 --> 01:01:32,400
be a year, 2 years, three years 
from now? 

1120
01:01:33,040 --> 01:01:35,440
Well, it's like anything else 
that's going to continue mature.

1121
01:01:35,440 --> 01:01:40,680
It'll become cheaper, more 
capable, and we will have found 

1122
01:01:40,680 --> 01:01:45,360
new and exciting ways to secure 
and unsecure things with it. 

1123
01:01:45,880 --> 01:01:47,120
There will be something else, 
right? 

1124
01:01:47,120 --> 01:01:50,560
It, I guess it's hard to, it's 
hard for me to call it the 

1125
01:01:50,600 --> 01:01:52,840
disruptor when you're in the 
moment. 

1126
01:01:52,960 --> 01:01:56,040
It is a disruptor. 
But so was the Internet. 

1127
01:01:56,560 --> 01:02:00,400
So was, you know, a calculator. 
So was indoor plumbing, right? 

1128
01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:03,040
There's so many of these things 
that come along in your 

1129
01:02:03,040 --> 01:02:06,000
lifetime. 
I do think it is going to be 

1130
01:02:06,000 --> 01:02:07,880
very disruptive. 
It already is. 

1131
01:02:08,760 --> 01:02:12,160
But we're going to have to 
figure out how to coexist with 

1132
01:02:12,160 --> 01:02:14,200
it. 
It's not going to go away. 

1133
01:02:14,200 --> 01:02:16,160
And so we have to figure out how
do you make it secure? 

1134
01:02:16,640 --> 01:02:17,760
How do you make it usable for 
people? 

1135
01:02:17,760 --> 01:02:21,200
How do you try to put guard 
rails or, you know, train tracks

1136
01:02:21,200 --> 01:02:25,360
maybe in certain cases where, 
you know, people are only doing 

1137
01:02:25,360 --> 01:02:28,600
the things with it that you want
them to do that? 

1138
01:02:28,600 --> 01:02:30,560
That's the kind of situation I 
think we're in right now. 

1139
01:02:32,720 --> 01:02:35,040
Yeah, it could be. 
You know, you and I were talking

1140
01:02:35,040 --> 01:02:38,880
about this before the show. 
I was thinking that we should 

1141
01:02:39,440 --> 01:02:41,640
should have hit record. 
That happens so often with you 

1142
01:02:41,640 --> 01:02:45,000
and I and even with our guests. 
Like we get to have a slide 

1143
01:02:45,320 --> 01:02:48,480
conversations like, darn it, we 
should hit record. 

1144
01:02:49,320 --> 01:02:52,240
But we're talking about how fast
is moving. 

1145
01:02:52,240 --> 01:02:56,520
And the thing everyone always 
points to Will Smith eating 

1146
01:02:56,520 --> 01:02:59,600
spaghetti. 
You just have to watch the 

1147
01:02:59,760 --> 01:03:01,680
benchmark. 
For any maturity that should be 

1148
01:03:01,680 --> 01:03:04,520
like all of our IM maturities is
Where are you on the Will Smith 

1149
01:03:04,520 --> 01:03:08,440
eating spaghetti scale? 
Yeah, absolutely. 

1150
01:03:08,840 --> 01:03:10,360
Yeah. 
So if you haven't seen that 

1151
01:03:10,360 --> 01:03:14,120
already, look it up. 
It's pretty hilarious with like 

1152
01:03:14,120 --> 01:03:17,400
comparing that. 
And it's basically it's AAI 

1153
01:03:17,400 --> 01:03:22,080
generated video of Will Smith 
eating spaghetti and then one 

1154
01:03:22,080 --> 01:03:25,360
that's, you know. 
That's like literally what it 

1155
01:03:25,360 --> 01:03:27,400
is, right? 
Yeah, right. 

1156
01:03:27,400 --> 01:03:30,320
Exact code like that is. 
It is exactly what it says on 

1157
01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:32,920
the tin. 
Yeah, Will Smith, the actor, and

1158
01:03:32,920 --> 01:03:36,440
he's eating spaghetti and then 
they show like him doing it, 

1159
01:03:36,440 --> 01:03:39,320
like a video generated of him 
doing it now. 

1160
01:03:39,320 --> 01:03:43,640
And I don't even think it's now 
as in, you know, February of 

1161
01:03:43,880 --> 01:03:49,000
20/20/26, I think it was like 
sometime in 2025, like the 

1162
01:03:49,240 --> 01:03:51,920
current video. 
And it's like, my gosh, she can 

1163
01:03:51,920 --> 01:03:54,120
barely tell this the day I 
generate. 

1164
01:03:54,960 --> 01:03:56,080
Yeah, that's what I keep 
thinking. 

1165
01:03:56,080 --> 01:03:58,760
It's like of this 2026. 
What's it going to be like in 

1166
01:03:58,760 --> 01:04:01,800
20-30? 
Like that's four years from now.

1167
01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:05,160
That's nothing. 
Going to be more capable, going 

1168
01:04:05,160 --> 01:04:06,680
to be more realistic. 
We're going to have to figure 

1169
01:04:06,680 --> 01:04:10,560
out ways to do content 
authentication and verification.

1170
01:04:11,480 --> 01:04:15,640
And talk about AGI and they say 
AI is going to be smarter than 

1171
01:04:16,160 --> 01:04:23,400
any person on the planet and 
that's like 3 to save eight 

1172
01:04:23,400 --> 01:04:27,240
years away that AI will be 
smarter than any person on the 

1173
01:04:27,240 --> 01:04:28,640
planet. 
And then they talk about 

1174
01:04:29,360 --> 01:04:35,920
artificial super intelligence, I
guess ASI or AGSI, and that's 

1175
01:04:35,920 --> 01:04:42,000
where AI reaches the point it's 
smarter than the collective 

1176
01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:43,960
knowledge of everybody on the 
planet. 

1177
01:04:45,000 --> 01:04:47,960
I mean, when I kiss that point, 
do you think it's really going 

1178
01:04:47,960 --> 01:04:50,720
to need a human to tell it what 
to do? 

1179
01:04:51,240 --> 01:04:54,760
Or is it just going to know what
it needs to do and do it and 

1180
01:04:54,760 --> 01:04:58,000
that humans just really won't be
able to add value to that 

1181
01:04:58,000 --> 01:05:02,000
process? 
I think we were talking earlier,

1182
01:05:02,320 --> 01:05:07,280
you said, well, the creativity, 
and I definitely would have 

1183
01:05:07,600 --> 01:05:12,320
agreed to like, I think if you 
think about where AI is now, you

1184
01:05:12,320 --> 01:05:15,840
definitely reach the limits of 
its creativity sometimes. 

1185
01:05:16,760 --> 01:05:20,760
But I've seen it gotten got a 
lot better in say the last year.

1186
01:05:21,320 --> 01:05:23,960
But that's looking at it like 
where it's at now. 

1187
01:05:26,280 --> 01:05:29,400
I think that, you know, it's not
just random number generator. 

1188
01:05:29,840 --> 01:05:32,840
It's going to actually like I'm 
constantly shocked like I was 

1189
01:05:32,840 --> 01:05:35,800
talking about with writing this 
book, I asked it to come up with

1190
01:05:35,800 --> 01:05:39,760
things and sometimes it's like 
it's just not very creative. 

1191
01:05:41,640 --> 01:05:46,160
But I just think it's just a 
point in time of where AI is at.

1192
01:05:47,280 --> 01:05:49,440
I guess I'll just get more 
capable and we'll just have to 

1193
01:05:49,680 --> 01:05:51,760
figure it out. 
I think AI is going to become 

1194
01:05:51,760 --> 01:05:53,200
more personal. 
Too. 

1195
01:05:53,800 --> 01:05:57,320
So rather than having like these
generic models that are like 

1196
01:05:57,320 --> 01:06:00,520
everybody is, you'll have your 
own little sort of like personal

1197
01:06:00,840 --> 01:06:03,400
AI that you lean on. 
And you know, some of us are 

1198
01:06:03,400 --> 01:06:04,720
probably already doing some of 
that, right? 

1199
01:06:04,720 --> 01:06:07,560
Whether you're doing like your 
own gems and Gemini or your own 

1200
01:06:07,560 --> 01:06:11,120
little GPTS and ChatGPT or 
Spaces and clawed right, or 

1201
01:06:11,120 --> 01:06:14,760
using notebook LM, you know, 
whatever it may be, I think 

1202
01:06:14,760 --> 01:06:18,640
there will be a person, a 
personal touch that will make 

1203
01:06:18,640 --> 01:06:21,240
it. 
The idea is that will make it 

1204
01:06:21,840 --> 01:06:24,040
more enhancing of someone's 
life. 

1205
01:06:24,960 --> 01:06:29,120
So I'm in a beta right now with 
Gmail for this thing called CC. 

1206
01:06:29,480 --> 01:06:32,320
And every morning I get an 
e-mail that is like a summary of

1207
01:06:32,320 --> 01:06:34,800
all the things that are 
happening in my Gmail and my 

1208
01:06:34,800 --> 01:06:36,480
calendar. 
And it's nice. 

1209
01:06:36,600 --> 01:06:38,160
It's like having a little 
assistance like, Oh yeah, I 

1210
01:06:38,160 --> 01:06:39,360
forgot about that. 
I have to take care of that. 

1211
01:06:39,880 --> 01:06:42,000
And it's, it's just every 
morning I just get this brief 

1212
01:06:42,000 --> 01:06:44,560
and I can respond to it as a 
person. 

1213
01:06:44,560 --> 01:06:46,680
Just reply to the e-mail and 
say, Oh yeah, remind me about 

1214
01:06:46,680 --> 01:06:49,680
this or yeah, can you look that 
up and just come back to it 

1215
01:06:49,680 --> 01:06:52,880
later and treat it as like an 
offline agent, you know, type of

1216
01:06:52,880 --> 01:06:54,840
approach? 
Is it perfect? 

1217
01:06:54,840 --> 01:06:56,480
No. 
But I think stuff like that 

1218
01:06:56,480 --> 01:06:58,200
will. 
It'll be interesting to see how 

1219
01:06:58,200 --> 01:06:59,640
this all plays out because 
there's going to be some people 

1220
01:06:59,640 --> 01:07:01,920
who are going to be willing to 
place that trust into it and 

1221
01:07:01,920 --> 01:07:03,280
some people who aren't. 
And that's fine. 

1222
01:07:03,280 --> 01:07:07,280
We have to figure out where do 
those two, where do those those 

1223
01:07:07,280 --> 01:07:11,120
roads meet and intersect? 
Yeah, I think those choices get 

1224
01:07:11,120 --> 01:07:16,280
taken away after a while. 
I think look like self driving 

1225
01:07:16,280 --> 01:07:19,080
cars. 
That's, you know, I don't think 

1226
01:07:19,080 --> 01:07:22,920
you'll be able to buy a, a car 
that you drive and people will 

1227
01:07:22,920 --> 01:07:27,520
stop knowing how to drive a car,
just get into a car, tell where 

1228
01:07:27,720 --> 01:07:30,240
they want to go. 
The car will take them there. 

1229
01:07:31,200 --> 01:07:32,800
That's not far away at all, 
right? 

1230
01:07:32,800 --> 01:07:35,080
That's already being done. 
I think there's going to be 

1231
01:07:35,080 --> 01:07:38,560
robots. 
I think five years, at least a 

1232
01:07:38,680 --> 01:07:42,400
minimum 10 years. 
You'll see robots walking on the

1233
01:07:42,400 --> 01:07:45,320
street and you'll go into places
like the grocery store and 

1234
01:07:45,320 --> 01:07:47,720
robots will be working in the 
grocery store. 

1235
01:07:49,400 --> 01:07:52,760
So it's going to change our 
physical world for sure. 

1236
01:07:53,440 --> 01:07:56,040
Yeah, I'm not saying it's not. 
It definitely will. 

1237
01:07:56,040 --> 01:07:58,600
We're really like, pontificating
and waxing poetic here. 

1238
01:07:59,320 --> 01:08:02,200
Yeah, I don't have any. 
I don't have any answers. 

1239
01:08:02,200 --> 01:08:06,320
I just know that we're going to 
have to do what humans have had 

1240
01:08:06,320 --> 01:08:08,320
to do forever. 
Adapt. 

1241
01:08:09,160 --> 01:08:11,200
That's right. 
Fire Hammer. 

1242
01:08:11,280 --> 01:08:17,120
Bronze Age plagues, pandemics, 
you know, going to the moon, if 

1243
01:08:17,120 --> 01:08:20,080
you believe in that, right 
things like that right we've 

1244
01:08:20,080 --> 01:08:24,439
we've had to adapt and that is 
what humans are really good at 

1245
01:08:24,720 --> 01:08:29,000
adaptability generally I. 
Think identity has adopted 

1246
01:08:29,279 --> 01:08:32,560
Identity has to follow the 
technology, right? 

1247
01:08:33,200 --> 01:08:36,000
It has to. 
You can't do it any other way. 

1248
01:08:36,000 --> 01:08:38,279
I mean, look at what we're doing
right now in the US with mobile 

1249
01:08:38,279 --> 01:08:40,160
identity and driver's license, 
right? 

1250
01:08:40,160 --> 01:08:43,720
We've got a little less than I 
think half of the states are 

1251
01:08:43,920 --> 01:08:46,800
coming online this year. 
You know, couple years ago was 

1252
01:08:46,800 --> 01:08:48,640
half of that, before that was 
half of that. 

1253
01:08:48,640 --> 01:08:52,080
So it takes time for these 
things to all catch up. 

1254
01:08:52,160 --> 01:08:55,920
But eventually we get there and 
then we figure out, OK, what's 

1255
01:08:55,920 --> 01:08:58,560
next? 
What thing do we have to solve 

1256
01:08:58,560 --> 01:09:01,840
for? 
Jeff I'm looking forward to the 

1257
01:09:01,840 --> 01:09:05,840
next 100 episodes and maybe 500 
after that. 

1258
01:09:06,279 --> 01:09:08,040
Yeah. 
I think I'm thinking 500 is 

1259
01:09:08,040 --> 01:09:12,640
probably sometime in 2028 based 
on our current run rate of like 

1260
01:09:13,520 --> 01:09:16,920
somewhere between like 65 and 70
episodes a year roughly. 

1261
01:09:18,279 --> 01:09:21,279
It's been a fantastic ride to be
on with you, man. 

1262
01:09:21,279 --> 01:09:25,319
So I always express my gratitude
to our sponsors and to our 

1263
01:09:25,319 --> 01:09:27,560
listeners. 
But I'm also, I've had a lot of 

1264
01:09:27,560 --> 01:09:31,399
gratitude to you because you and
I have been doing this 

1265
01:09:31,600 --> 01:09:34,520
consistently. 
I've been good friends now for 

1266
01:09:34,520 --> 01:09:36,359
longer than we've been doing the
podcast. 

1267
01:09:36,359 --> 01:09:39,200
But you know, when you do 
something like this, like 

1268
01:09:39,200 --> 01:09:42,600
there's times where the other 
person does something that 

1269
01:09:42,600 --> 01:09:46,640
annoys you, right? 
And that happens on both ends. 

1270
01:09:46,640 --> 01:09:49,760
And we always get past it, 
maintain our friendship. 

1271
01:09:50,080 --> 01:09:52,680
And I hope that comes through in
the podcast. 

1272
01:09:52,680 --> 01:09:55,880
I hope people know that we 
appreciate each other and that 

1273
01:09:55,880 --> 01:09:58,960
we are friends. 
And, you know, sometimes we get 

1274
01:09:58,960 --> 01:10:03,440
into our debates about identity 
or whatever it might be. 

1275
01:10:03,720 --> 01:10:05,440
We always come out and we're 
still friends. 

1276
01:10:05,880 --> 01:10:10,960
Because we talk that simple. 
Yeah, we got to get more people 

1277
01:10:10,960 --> 01:10:14,080
in this world to do that. 
You know, is what is I don't 

1278
01:10:14,080 --> 01:10:15,480
want to, I don't want to turn 
political. 

1279
01:10:15,480 --> 01:10:17,680
But yeah, we couldn't be more 
opposite. 

1280
01:10:17,680 --> 01:10:20,200
And somehow we still make it 
work and it's good. 

1281
01:10:20,600 --> 01:10:23,120
So there you go. 
Let us be the shining example 

1282
01:10:23,120 --> 01:10:24,440
for the world. 
Let's put it that way. 

1283
01:10:25,120 --> 01:10:28,720
We are the world. 
I'm going to isolate that and 

1284
01:10:28,720 --> 01:10:30,320
that might be the part of the 
clip for this episode. 

1285
01:10:30,400 --> 01:10:35,640
Anytime you say I always, but 
see, I'm recording isolated 

1286
01:10:35,640 --> 01:10:37,560
tracks, so I can totally steal 
that. 

1287
01:10:37,560 --> 01:10:39,320
Gosh. 
All right, there we. 

1288
01:10:40,080 --> 01:10:42,160
Go, let's go ahead and leave it 
for this week. 

1289
01:10:42,320 --> 01:10:44,640
Thanks again to everybody who 
supported us over the 400 

1290
01:10:44,640 --> 01:10:46,400
episodes. 
Here's the next 400. 

1291
01:10:47,120 --> 01:10:49,640
Find us on the web, IDC 
podcast.com. 

1292
01:10:49,760 --> 01:10:52,760
Like, subscribe, use our 
discount codes. 

1293
01:10:52,760 --> 01:10:56,840
We're always on our main page 
for idcpodcast.com that helps us

1294
01:10:56,840 --> 01:10:58,560
continue to grow the show and 
bring more content. 

1295
01:10:58,560 --> 01:11:01,320
And you know, thanks to everyone
for for the ride that we've been

1296
01:11:01,320 --> 01:11:04,040
on and the ride that we'll 
continue to go on. 

1297
01:11:04,080 --> 01:11:07,320
So thanks everybody for watching
and or listening and we'll talk 

1298
01:11:07,320 --> 01:11:12,360
with y'all in the next one. 
You've been listening to 

1299
01:11:12,400 --> 01:11:16,360
Identity at the Center. 
We hope you've enjoyed the show.

1300
01:11:16,520 --> 01:11:20,640
Make sure to like, rate and 
review, and we'll be back soon. 

1301
01:11:20,920 --> 01:11:23,160
But in the meantime, hit the 
website at 

1302
01:11:23,160 --> 01:11:29,520
identity@thecenter.com. 
See you next time on Identity at

1303
01:11:29,520 --> 01:11:30,440
the Center.