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We're here with a new take on an
identity, identity security, 

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identity governance, and we're 
here to disrupt the space. 

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These organizations are sitting 
on a treasure trove of data that

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could absolutely reduce risk, 
and a tool like this sounds. 

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Awesome. 
We looked at this and said 

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there's got to be a better way. 
You have to be able to go where 

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the data is, and you have to be 
able to do this with a business 

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user who we think of as somebody
who is almost always a novice, 

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like a perpetual novice. 
This needs a solution that just 

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works and works with the system 
where the data is, and that's 

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what we set out to build. 
We want to be the best 

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integration platform that our 
customers can rely on. 

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We're building a system around 
this to solve what is probably a

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decade old problem, but it's one
we're very confident about 

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solving. 
This is identity at the center 

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if it has anything to do with 
IAM. 

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This is the go to podcast now 
your hosts Jim McDonald and Jeff

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Stedman. 
Welcome to the Identity at the 

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Center podcast. 
I'm Jeff, and that's Jim. 

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Hey, Jim. 
Hey, Jeff, how are you? 

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Oh, not so bad yourself. 
Hey did you say identity at the 

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centre? 
Because I thought this was AI at

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the centre. 
I think I'm on the wrong 

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podcast. 
Sometimes, but no identity at 

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the centre. 
That is our maybe our our future

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podcast, AI at the Centre, but 
it seems like it's creeping into

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a whole bunch of different 
things these days in the 

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identity space. 
I think you should just start 

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getting the domain names locked 
down now. 

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Yeah, I've already thought about
that. 

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But why don't we turn into this 
is a sponsor spotlight episode, 

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right? 
So we create these in 

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collaboration with our partners 
that are out there and they come

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on and share insights and things
like that. 

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So to make it very clear, right,
this is a very, this is a 

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sponsored episode. 
So everything you hear is 

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sponsored today by Zilla 
security. 

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We've had them on in the past. 
So they were with us back in 

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March. 
We had Deepak Taneja from Zilla 

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join us kind of earlier in the 
year and that was episode I 

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think 269 back in March. 
And so we've got another one 

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today and I'm very excited to 
announce we've got Niton 

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Sonowang. 
He's the chief product officer 

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and Co founder of Zilla 
Security. 

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Welcome to the show, Ninton. 
Thank you very much for having 

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me. 
Yeah, thank you so much for 

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taking the time. 
And as I mentioned before, this 

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is the second time that we've 
done one of these with Zilla and

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the first one was well received 
and hopefully this one will be 

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as well. 
I'm sure it will. 

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Why don't we get into this 
though, because you know, this 

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is the first time you've been on
identity at the centre or AI at 

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the centre, depending on where 
we're going to go with that. 

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How did you get into the space 
of identity? 

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Is it something that you chose 
or did it choose you? 

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No identity identity chose me. 
Actually, I got into this this 

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domain when we started Zillow 
security. 

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And, you know, as I was getting 
off my previous startup and and 

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looking to do the next one, a 
friend and ex colleague 

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connected me to my Co founder 
and our CEO, Deepak Taneja. 

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And, and we, you know, bounced 
ideas off of each other for 

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quite some time. 
But very early on it became 

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clear to me, you know, hey, I 
want to work with Deepak and 

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start my next thing. 
So, and over time, as as the 

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idea evolved, it turned into it 
turned into Zillow security. 

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So you're a chief product 
officer? 

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I'm always fascinated by titles 
and roles in our industry. 

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What does a chief product 
officer do? 

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And that's a very good question.
And and you know, and another 

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dimension to that question 
really is the role itself 

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changes as the company changes 
and the company grows. 

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So at Zilla, I run our product 
and our engineering teams. 

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So both on the engineering side 
and on the product management 

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side. 
And you know, the role has also 

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evolved over time. 
So early in our days, I would 

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write code and, and now less so 
now there are better people than

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I am that write code, better 
engineers and and also better 

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people who are better product 
managers than I am that that do 

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the product side of things. 
So that's how the role has 

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evolved. 
And you know, as as the company 

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will continue to grow, it will 
evolve even more. 

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Yeah, I feel like that's an 
important part of of any role, 

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right? 
You have to adapt to whatever, 

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whatever the needs are of the 
organization or the moment, 

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whatever that looks like. 
For people who are not familiar 

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with Zilla, if they missed the 
first episode that we did tell 

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us about Zilla Security, what is
it that that you guys bring to 

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the market that people should be
aware of? 

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Yeah. 
So at Zilla Security, you know, 

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we've really taken, you know, a 
step back and as you know, our 

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our CEO, my Co founder, Deepak 
Daneja has spent an entire 

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career in the identity space. 
And and I think you you folks on

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an episode that he was on, you 
called him like the Tom Brady of

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identity. 
And and honestly, it is so 

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apartment and in part actually, 
I really wanted to come on a 

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podcast podcast with you guys 
also because you know, I'm not 

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from the identity world and and 
like today's episode, to me, it 

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feels like I've arrived right? 
So and just one of your episodes

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I listened to and it was like, 
boy, that intro music like I 

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gotta get on this podcast so 
flatter. 

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Get you everywhere in this 
podcast and keep going. 

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Yeah. 
So, you know, all that said, so 

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you know, with Deepak's 
background and deep expertise 

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and, and sort of a fresh set of 
eyes at, at, at the identity 

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space and honestly as, as the 
tech world at large, as it has 

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evolved over the past decade or 
so. 

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And there's a couple of, you 
know, completely orthogonal 

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evolutions that have happened in
the space, right. 

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One, of course is cloud and SAS 
and everything else has taken on

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a scale and magnitude that it 
never had 10-15 years ago. 

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But the second thing that's 
happened is the level of 

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business involvement in systems 
and applications and business 

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owners and people who really are
not, you know, IT 

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administrators, leave alone 
identity people, right? 

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They're not responsible for for 
managing, you know, really much 

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of what it turns out to be 
identity related. 

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And so, you know, at Sozilla, 
we're, you know, we took a look 

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at look at this whole landscape 
and there's got to be a better 

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way to do things than what the 
legacy systems have taken the 

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path down. 
So we're here, you know, we're 

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here with the, you know, with 
the, a new product, a new take 

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on an identity, identity, 
security, identity governance. 

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And we're here to disrupt the 
space. 

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I, I, you know, it's funny that 
you mentioned the business 

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because I feel like this is 
something where, you know, if 

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you're, if you're in this 
industry, especially if you're 

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working as part of an IM real 
world scenario. 

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A lot of times there's this idea
of like, hey, we want the 

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business to be more involved in 
identity, but they're not 

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identity people. 
And yet we're asking them to 

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make decisions on is this access
appropriate? 

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And we just kind of assume that 
they know they they don't have 

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those answers. 
And that's not always true, 

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right? 
That's right. 

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In fact. 
In fact, what's interesting is 

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that we are now more so calling 
on business people to do a lot 

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of things for us, right? 
We call on them to set up and 

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configure and build integrations
into systems we call on. 

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And when that fails, we call on 
them to do screenshots and 

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screen scraping and things like 
that. 

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And we call on them to do access
reviews. 

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And we put in front of them some
very complex entitlements and 

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tell them to say it's OK. 
And more often that they don't 

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know what to do. 
And so they do what is, you 

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know, naturally allows them to 
go do their day job, which is to

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say, say approval, and they move
on, right. 

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So I think increasingly we've 
called on, you know, business 

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users and we'll continue to do 
so, right, Because this this is 

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not a, you know, this is not a 
trend that's going to disappear 

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overnight. 
This is a long lasting tectonic 

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shift in the way IT operates and
this is here to stay. 

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So everything we do around, you 
know, around security in general

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and identity, particularly in 
this new modern world, plays a 

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much more central role than it 
ever has. 

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So it's all it's plays a central
role around security. 

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And you know, wherever there are
security concerns, obviously 

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compliance follows because 
compliance wants you to show 

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them that you're doing what you 
said you were going to do. 

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And, and so now you have a 
security problem or a compliance

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problem in this particular new 
world. 

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And of course, if you are giving
people access and you're taking 

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away access, you have a 
provisioning deprovisioning 

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problem, right? 
So, so it's all, you know, it's,

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it's all in some sense a new 
world where business users are 

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being asked to play much more of
a active role and something that

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they'd rather not do. 
You know, Nathan, we've reached 

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out to Deepak, Tunisia, whatever
it was maybe 6-9 months ago. 

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I guess he's really somebody who
is around the beginning of 

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identity. 
Then he was one of the key 

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people who kind of developed 
this IGA space. 

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And IGA space in my mind is all 
about ensuring that the right 

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people have the right access. 
I don't think IT or information 

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security can make the decisions 
on who gets access to what. 

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That's got to be the business 
users. 

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What IT or IS needs to do is 
give them systems that make 

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sense that they can use to do 
that role, to fulfill that, that

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role that they have in managing 
access. 

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And one of the things that like 
knock my socks off with the 

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Zillow platforms, what you do is
use and the ability to kind of 

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use a tool that I've never seen 
and I, I still haven't seen from

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any other vendor. 
I'm not just saying that because

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you're doing a sponsor 
spotlight, but seriously, this 

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is innovative stuff that people 
need to go out and check out if 

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they haven't already. 
We're just kind of like 

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highlighting on your screen 
where certain fields are so you 

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can do an access review. 
Does that level of automation 

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that can really enable a 
business user? 

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It's not just, you know, using 
more friendly business 

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terminology, which basically 
gives it a quantum leap, but now

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that you've introduced AI into 
the process, I mean, 

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fundamentally like improves your
ability to put those decisions 

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in the business's hands. 
That's right. 

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And, you know, again, we, we 
took a step back and we look at 

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what our customers were doing 
right and our customers and, and

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the people we wished would be 
our customers when we started 

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Zilla Security, you know, they, 
they, they had this problem in, 

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in, in droves. 
And the, you know, it, it was 

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appalling how, how we ask 
business users often with who 

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have, who manage very sensitive 
systems, right? 

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So these may be things like 
banking portals or insurance 

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portals or, you know, and things
like that for where there's a 

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real need for identity 
governance, right? 

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And so we looked at this and we 
said there's got to be a better 

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way. 
You have to be able to go where 

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the data is. 
And you have to be able to do 

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this with a, a business user who
we think of as somebody who is 

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almost always a novice, like a 
perpetual novice because he or 

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she gets called on to do, 
particularly when it comes to 

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things like Sox compliance, gets
called on to do this every few 

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months or so. 
Or, you know, six weeks, 8 

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weeks, whatever your cadence 
might be. 

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And they dread it. 
And and so Zeus was born out of 

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this, you know, this needs a 
solution that just works and 

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works with the system where the 
data is. 

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And that's what we set out to 
build. 

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You know, in fact, one of our 
engineers who who spent time 

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building, building Zeus, 
somebody that I've worked with 

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ever since he was in, you know, 
I joined me in a start up many 

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moons ago as an intern from MIT.
And, you know, and he sort of 

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really got creative with how we 
can make it, you know, super 

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easy to essentially learn from 
the Dom of the, you know, of the

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console of the application that 
that you're on. 

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We've been, we filed a patent 
for the work we have done. 

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We're very proud of it. 
And you know, we've taken that 

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many, many steps further and we 
continue to we, we intend to 

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take it even more further so 
that, you know, the app owner 

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just simply trains us. 
It's a one time exercise from 

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00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:53,520
then on. 
We know what the system is. 

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00:13:53,520 --> 00:14:00,280
We can enable them to set Zeus 
up so that it runs in a headless

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00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:03,560
browser on a nightly basis. 
It's able to bring in 

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00:14:03,560 --> 00:14:07,040
credentials from a secure 
storage vault, login into the 

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00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:11,640
system, get the identity and 
access data, whatever it needs. 

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00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:16,640
You know, we extended zoos to be
able to go grab things like lost

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00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:18,960
login. 
You know, this is always a blind

235
00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:20,600
spot. 
And like, are people using the 

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00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:24,960
stuff that we give them, right? 
What what the MFA status of this

237
00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:29,440
account that they have access to
and any other data that's 

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00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:33,920
present in the system. 
And it comes back into our, you 

239
00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:37,400
know, into the Zilla system, if 
you will. 

240
00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,080
So we're very proud of Zilla 
universal sync. 

241
00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:44,880
But more than that, you know the
I have been surprised at how 

242
00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:49,200
effectively many of our 
customers have used Zilla, 

243
00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:54,560
Universal Sink or Zeus to solve 
their business pain point. 

244
00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:57,040
Yeah, I'm going to echo what Jim
said. 

245
00:14:57,040 --> 00:15:00,480
I I have not seen another 
capability that looks and feels 

246
00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:04,480
and smells what like Zeus. 
It's very it's very interesting.

247
00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:06,440
I would definitely encourage 
people to go go back because we 

248
00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:08,560
did spend time with Deepak talk 
about that earlier this year. 

249
00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:11,560
So episode 269, go back and and 
watch their list of that one. 

250
00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:15,200
Let me put you on the spot here 
real quick, because something 

251
00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:17,200
you just said sparks a question 
I've got. 

252
00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:20,880
You said you were surprised at 
kind of what your customers are 

253
00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:24,120
doing with Zeus. 
Is there something you know, is 

254
00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:25,560
there a creative thing or 
something in quick? 

255
00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:27,120
Just like, wow, I never really 
kind of thought about it from 

256
00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:29,640
the angle that it was like, oh, 
like what does that help me 

257
00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:31,360
manifest the surprise in my 
brain? 

258
00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:33,160
Yeah. 
So the so the so The thing is, 

259
00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:36,360
you know, and I think you, you, 
you alluded to earlier, which 

260
00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:40,240
is, you know, identity 
governance and Deepak was part 

261
00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:42,520
of sort of forming, forming the 
identity governance. 

262
00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:47,120
You know, last week we were at 
an event here of, of Cecil's in,

263
00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:50,480
in Boston and, and we jokingly 
said, you know, Boston's the 

264
00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:54,120
birth place of IGA and which is 
really true because, you know, 

265
00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:58,720
because IGA was Co founded by in
part Deepak, sort of it was a 

266
00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:02,760
outcome out of Sarbanes, you 
know, Sarbanes-Oxley regulations

267
00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:05,360
and and things like that, 
because it was intended to avoid

268
00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:09,560
a lot of fraud, right. 
And so, so if you, if you come 

269
00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:13,120
back and say, OK, well, the 
whole purpose was do identity 

270
00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:15,640
governance because people do bad
things with the access that you 

271
00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:18,040
give them. 
Sometimes they do trades they're

272
00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:20,400
not supposed to. 
Sometimes they do just downright

273
00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:23,720
downright, you know, financial 
fraud. 

274
00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:28,120
And so this means at its core, 
really it comes down to is that 

275
00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:33,800
there are systems where people 
have sensitive financial 

276
00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:38,200
transactions can be conducted 
and, and things like that. 

277
00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:40,720
And, and that's what they need 
governance for. 

278
00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:46,640
And, and what surprised me is 
how many of these systems are 

279
00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:51,480
just so, you know, 1990s, if you
will, right? 

280
00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:56,280
Like or, and they are that way 
for a good reason, because, you 

281
00:16:56,280 --> 00:17:01,120
know, a banking portal has no 
real business driver to just 

282
00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:03,760
become modern because we all say
so, right? 

283
00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:08,200
Like, but that the governance 
problem doesn't go away, right? 

284
00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:14,920
Or, you know, or even other 
administrative systems that you 

285
00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:17,079
look back on and you're like, Oh
yeah, it is critical. 

286
00:17:17,079 --> 00:17:20,200
It is very important that there 
be governance around who has 

287
00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:24,480
access to being able to 
manipulate your corporate Wi-Fi 

288
00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:26,800
network, right? 
Of course, you need to be 

289
00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:29,120
governing that. 
And that's, that's not 

290
00:17:29,120 --> 00:17:31,480
important. 
That's sort of what I mean by 

291
00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:35,440
I've been surprised by that is 
because the range and the 

292
00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:40,320
breadth of systems that have, 
you know, that have been used 

293
00:17:41,360 --> 00:17:45,080
with Zeus particularly and all 
our other integration 

294
00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:47,880
capability, right? 
So one of the, you know, one of 

295
00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:51,240
the observations that Deepak 
also had early on in the 

296
00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:55,680
founding of Zillow is basically,
look, you know, IGA programs go 

297
00:17:55,680 --> 00:18:00,800
sideways because they just 
don't, they just don't succeed 

298
00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:04,160
at onboarding systems, right? 
And whatever terminology you 

299
00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:06,160
use, whether it's onboarding 
systems, whether it's 

300
00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:10,480
integrations or whether it's, 
you know, the, the reality is 

301
00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:16,960
it's all anchored in being able 
to effectively connect to the 

302
00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:19,840
systems that you're trying to 
govern and be able to either 

303
00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:23,040
collect from them if all you're 
doing is compliance or being 

304
00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:26,040
able to provision into them, 
deprovision into them and so on,

305
00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:29,800
right? 
So IGA programs are anchored in 

306
00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:32,920
integrations, right? 
So that was, you know, that was 

307
00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:35,600
an early observation. 
Like, you know, if there was a 

308
00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:37,720
thing that said, you know, this 
I believe, right? 

309
00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:40,920
Like I think at Zilla, this we 
believe, right? 

310
00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:44,840
Like IGA programs are anchored 
and integrations. 

311
00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:48,160
And so we're like, OK, well, if 
that's the case, we gotta be. 

312
00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:50,320
And if that's the case and 
that's the pain point that our 

313
00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:52,520
customers are facing and the 
customers we want to have are 

314
00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:58,320
facing, then the we've got to be
an amazing integrations 

315
00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:00,400
platform. 
So let's go build that, right? 

316
00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:05,000
And so you know, all the API 
integration capability that 

317
00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:07,800
we've built, all the stuff that 
we've done with Zilla Universal 

318
00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,000
Sync, all the things that we're 
building in order to be able to 

319
00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:14,600
get in a very secure manner in a
hybrid network. 

320
00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:16,600
All of that's kind of borne on 
effect, right? 

321
00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:20,880
So which is that we want to be 
the best integration platform 

322
00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:26,920
that our customers can rely on. 
And you know, Zeus was part of 

323
00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:30,920
that. 
We've also done and Zeus is all 

324
00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,440
no code, right? 
So nobody needs to write Java 

325
00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:34,560
code. 
As I say, it doesn't get much 

326
00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:38,960
easier than. 
Point No, I mean, it's a, it's 

327
00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:42,840
like you're on an identity, you 
know, identity and access team 

328
00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:46,680
in a, in any enterprise. 
I mean, like, do you really have

329
00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:50,320
the ability to hire Java 
developers to go build stuff for

330
00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:54,440
you or, you know, so it's a 
challenge and it's a very 

331
00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:57,160
practical, the practical reality
of the world we live in. 

332
00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:02,800
So you know Zeus is no code. 
You know, in addition to a very 

333
00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:07,200
large number of API integrations
that are out-of-the-box in the 

334
00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:13,800
Zilla product, we've built no 
code capability so that you can 

335
00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:17,800
simply tell us for a system that
Zilla has never seen, you can 

336
00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:20,640
simply tell us this is going to 
be O auth authentication. 

337
00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:23,760
By the way, here is the client 
ID, here's the client secret, 

338
00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:27,320
here's the REST API endpoint 
that you can call to go get the 

339
00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:30,480
user record. 
And here's what you would do to 

340
00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:34,160
go get the group record. 
And in, in a short period of 

341
00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:36,560
time, you will have built 
yourself an integration, right. 

342
00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:40,880
And so that's sort of the 
standard that we're holding 

343
00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:43,880
ourselves to. 
And you know, this started 

344
00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:48,400
validating itself early in 
Zilla's life because we would 

345
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,520
routinely and that was the time 
when I did Pocs. 

346
00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,480
And you know, it's like the 
chief product officer of job 

347
00:20:55,520 --> 00:21:00,400
evolves over time and when I 
would do PO CS and it was very 

348
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:05,080
important to sort of learn, you 
know, learn from the customers 

349
00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:06,440
first time. 
It continues to be so. 

350
00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:13,040
But it was like people would 
tell us that, you know, I've 

351
00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:17,560
done more in the hour that I've 
been on the Zoom with you in 

352
00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:21,720
APOC than I did at my previous 
job, right? 

353
00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:25,960
Like it would be, we would hear 
things like that and that's sort

354
00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:30,360
of validated that, you know, the
belief that we hold here in 

355
00:21:30,360 --> 00:21:34,080
civil security. 
Well now, now Zeus is old hat, 

356
00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:35,520
right? 
There's new stuff coming up. 

357
00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:39,000
Oh, it's going to be amazing. 
I think there's a lot, you know,

358
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:43,200
there's a lot that we are doing 
with, with Zeus. 

359
00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:48,800
There's a lot we want to do with
no code integrations. 

360
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:53,400
We are in the process of 
building, you know, community 

361
00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:58,360
that can collaborate on sort of,
you know, helping each other 

362
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:03,360
and, and with the integrations 
that that get built. 

363
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:08,360
This thing that's taken the 
world by storm in the past year 

364
00:22:08,360 --> 00:22:10,520
or so. 
Large language models are 

365
00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:14,920
amazing at figuring out stuff 
that's in public documentation, 

366
00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:16,440
right? 
So we want to figure out how to 

367
00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:22,480
bring that to bear to, you know,
to essentially solving the 

368
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:24,120
foundational problem, which is 
luck. 

369
00:22:24,120 --> 00:22:29,240
You got to make it easy for an 
IGA program as it gets up and 

370
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:35,600
running to just integrate and 
then the program runs on top of 

371
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:36,960
that. 
It's kind of like you can't lay 

372
00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:39,560
a foundation and and build an 
amazing house on a rickety 

373
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:41,280
foundation. 
I think that's really how we see

374
00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:42,880
it. 
Well, you can, but it'll fall. 

375
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:44,400
Over. 
It'll fall over pretty quickly. 

376
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:46,920
Not, not advised. 
Well, why don't we talk about 

377
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:49,120
what's coming up next? 
Because you're, you're here to 

378
00:22:49,120 --> 00:22:51,920
tease some new features and new 
capabilities that are coming up 

379
00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:53,400
for Zillow, right? 
Yeah. 

380
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:58,200
So, you know, you know, we've, 
we've taken a, a real hard look 

381
00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:05,000
at, at IGA and sort of, you 
know, the, the, the problems and

382
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:09,120
all of the manual work that 
people have to do and people 

383
00:23:09,120 --> 00:23:11,720
called up get called upon to do.
And the thing that we talked 

384
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:13,560
about, right. 
So what are we working on is, 

385
00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:18,640
you know, we, we a year ago or 
so as we started taking a hard 

386
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:21,880
look at sort of AI and ML and, 
and we did a bunch of 

387
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:25,840
experiments and we're like, OK, 
what is it that we can do and 

388
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:31,760
build that adds real meaningful 
value to an identity team and 

389
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:34,760
makes a difference, right? 
There's a lot of gimmicky things

390
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:39,280
that one could be doing and, 
and, and, you know, we're sort 

391
00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:44,600
of shying away from that. 
And so, you know, the, the fact 

392
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:51,240
that we call upon people to do 
the same sort of access review 

393
00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:57,360
quarter after quarter after 
quarter is just, you know, it 

394
00:23:57,360 --> 00:23:58,800
just shouldn't be this way, 
right. 

395
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:04,320
And so we're bringing AI to bear
on a, you know, on a somewhat 

396
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:08,720
age-old problem, which is how do
I take all the data, this 

397
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,680
amazing set of integrations that
are there in the Zola platform 

398
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:15,120
that connect to your, all the 
systems and now knows who has 

399
00:24:15,120 --> 00:24:19,040
access to what. 
Now how do we take that who has 

400
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:24,360
access to what at an individual 
level and, and have a machine 

401
00:24:24,360 --> 00:24:29,880
learning model learn from all of
that and say, OK, from here what

402
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:34,680
I can tell with, with the high 
degree of confidence that just 

403
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:43,600
about everybody who is doing QA 
has this access in, you know, in

404
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:47,720
Jira, for example, right? 
Or all sales people should have 

405
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:52,240
access to sales force, right? 
I think we as humans intuitively

406
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:57,120
understand that, but we as IGA 
practitioners have failed to 

407
00:24:57,120 --> 00:24:59,680
take that intuitive 
understanding into practice, 

408
00:25:00,120 --> 00:25:04,080
right? 
Like so, so and, and, and 

409
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:08,360
honestly, the problem here is 
that, you know, even people 

410
00:25:08,360 --> 00:25:09,720
don't know where to begin, 
right? 

411
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:12,160
And people don't know where to 
begin. 

412
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:17,600
And it used to be, there were 
valiant efforts made a decade or

413
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:21,520
so ago, including by some of my 
colleagues here at Zillah to 

414
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:27,640
help organizations figure this 
out by creating, you know, what 

415
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,200
one might call now 
organizational roles, right? 

416
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:36,920
And organize sort of these teams
that go and a role mining team 

417
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:39,640
that centrally tries to figure 
out who should have access to 

418
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:42,160
what. 
And and then they try to solicit

419
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:45,200
feedback from business users who
want nothing to do with this, 

420
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:47,960
right? 
Having been on one of those role

421
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,840
mining teams I can tell you it 
is tedious work and. 

422
00:25:51,360 --> 00:25:54,560
Sometimes effective and 
sometimes effective, right? 

423
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:58,360
And so it's, it's so, you know, 
one of our team members here 

424
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:02,000
who, who was on the founding 
team at, at Deepak's previous 

425
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:06,400
company, you know, he, Dan likes
to say, you know, roles and, and

426
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,680
he, he's spent just like you, 
Jeff. 

427
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:12,960
He worked with the largest 
enterprises in the world trying 

428
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:15,920
to help them solve this problem 
by what was an emerging, 

429
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:18,280
emerging tech at that time, 
right? 

430
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,760
And, and he came to the 
conclusion he goes, you know, 

431
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:26,040
rolls are like a floor wax and a
dessert topping all at the same 

432
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:32,000
time, you know, and the first 
time I heard it, I was like, you

433
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,120
know, fell off my chair 
laughing. 

434
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:38,480
But it is like, you know, it, it
just doesn't work. 

435
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,440
And, you know, it has a lot of 
promise. 

436
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:45,160
You embark on these things with 
a a tremendous amount of promise

437
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:52,480
and hope and, and, and a lot of 
man hours and sweat later, you 

438
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:55,080
know, they're out of date, 
right. 

439
00:26:55,200 --> 00:27:00,240
So, so, but and and part of the 
other issue has happened. 

440
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:02,800
And we we talked about this 
earlier, which is like, you 

441
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:08,120
know, the the context of what 
type of individual in the 

442
00:27:08,120 --> 00:27:11,840
organization should have access 
to what type of app is now even 

443
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:13,640
more Federated than Endeavour 
was, right. 

444
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:19,480
So, so while one might argue 
that, you know, 1012 years ago, 

445
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:23,160
the central IT teams had some 
hope of doing this, you know, 

446
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,520
it's like here we are in 2024, 
they have no hope of doing this.

447
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:31,760
Like they have no context left 
anymore. 

448
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:35,360
And so, but the context is then 
in the business, right? 

449
00:27:35,360 --> 00:27:37,120
The application owners know 
this. 

450
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,480
And when you logically say to 
the person who owns Salesforce, 

451
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:46,480
all S ES have this and they yes,
yes, I know, I give it and, and 

452
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:50,680
I review it. 
And so, you know, the, the, our 

453
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:55,240
goal is bring machine learning 
to bear on this problem and 

454
00:27:55,240 --> 00:28:01,160
really help the business owner 
out in a manner that they can 

455
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:02,840
then say, OK, this makes sense 
to me. 

456
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:07,120
Everything else is an outlier. 
And that I'm happy to look at, 

457
00:28:07,120 --> 00:28:09,080
by the way, because they're 
outliers. 

458
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:15,720
But the things that are not are 
once that AI is able to identify

459
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:20,560
in a meaningful fashion and and 
then allow you to then make a 

460
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:24,200
very defensible case to your 
auditor, which is what the 

461
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:25,720
auditors also want to see, 
right? 

462
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,360
And so at a very high level, you
know, that's sort of what we're 

463
00:28:30,360 --> 00:28:31,880
working on. 
Of course, there's a lot of 

464
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:37,440
complexity behind this, you 
know, and there is the data that

465
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,440
we get from HR systems and so on
has attributes in it. 

466
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:42,160
If you have to leverage them, 
you have to make sure they're 

467
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,200
right. 
And so we're building a system 

468
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:49,160
around this to solve, you know, 
solve what is probably a decade 

469
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,880
old problem, but but that's one 
we are very confident about, 

470
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,400
about solving. 
It sounds like a really 

471
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:58,840
interesting capability and one 
that's important too, because I 

472
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:02,320
think it's this, it's this 
application of data, right that 

473
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:05,400
you've got in your organization.
And now how do we use that to 

474
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:07,920
make our lives easier, which I'm
I'm always a fan of. 

475
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,280
I would imagine, you know, this,
this comes into a situation 

476
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,440
where why do we keep asking the 
same questions over and over 

477
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:16,160
again if we know what the answer
is going to be, right? 

478
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:18,360
It's kind of like doing an 
access review for access review 

479
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:21,000
sakes. 
Yes, here is Jeff, here is Jim. 

480
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,760
They have access to this. 
Of course, the answer is always 

481
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:24,840
yes because of the role they're 
in. 

482
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,360
Why are you asking me this? 
That's correct. 

483
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:31,040
And that's what's so frustrating
for business users and 

484
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:36,800
supervisors and so on, right? 
And so a system that can get 

485
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:40,440
away from it, but then more call
attention to the things that 

486
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:44,800
actually need attention, right? 
I think that's really what's 

487
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:48,200
getting lost in this is, you 
know, you, you dump a pile of 

488
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:52,080
stuff in front of me and then 
expect me to, which is not my 

489
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:56,560
job at all, to sift through 
every single, you know, leaf in 

490
00:29:56,560 --> 00:30:00,680
that pile and, and, and so and. 
All we're going to do is just 

491
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:02,440
get it like, yeah, I didn't find
that and then move on. 

492
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:04,960
After I move on Exactly right, 
exactly. 

493
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:08,880
So whereas this will, this will 
meaningfully help people focus 

494
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:13,880
on the things that really matter
and, and pay close attention to 

495
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:17,160
that administrative privilege 
that's been sort of being handed

496
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:22,240
out like candy perhaps and, and,
and immediate things like that, 

497
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:24,400
right? 
Which is really what we want. 

498
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:28,040
And you know, again, you know, 
this is both the compliance 

499
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:30,480
outcome. 
Of course, that's what brings 

500
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:32,480
people, forces people into 
action. 

501
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,440
Often we wish it wasn't that 
way, but it is what it is. 

502
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:40,800
But compliance is there for a 
real, you know, business reason,

503
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:44,760
which is, look, the business 
doesn't want to have problems 

504
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:49,560
and data leakage and and 
breaches and things like that, 

505
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:50,840
right? 
There's not a single business 

506
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,200
leader that would say to you, 
yeah, I'm perfectly fine with 

507
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:54,880
the breach, right? 
Like that would never happen 

508
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:58,360
but. 
If you if you want to be a hero 

509
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:00,840
to the business, make their 
lives easier, easier and get 

510
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:04,000
them easy buttons to reduce 
risk, reduce effort, things like

511
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,360
that. 
I think, you know, that's that's

512
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:08,520
something that everybody who's 
listening to this probably 

513
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:10,640
should be the you effort. 
I am like, how does this feature

514
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,920
or thing that I'm doing helping 
that helping, you know, those 

515
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,080
efforts? 
I'm curious, I, I know we're 

516
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:18,320
kind of teasing this, this 
capability coming out. 

517
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:20,520
Are we able to share the name 
yet of it? 

518
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:23,120
Like what's this thing called? 
Or do we need to wait a little 

519
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:25,720
bit for that? 
Yeah, I think, you know, we're 

520
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,840
putting finishing touches on on 
this. 

521
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:33,960
We'd love to tell the world more
about it pretty soon. 

522
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:39,320
And you know, and, and the, the 
ultimate objective in this is 

523
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:45,560
which is, you know, when my, 
when a new employee steps into 

524
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:49,000
the door at my company, I should
be able to figure out what 

525
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:54,280
access they need in order to be 
productive on day one, right? 

526
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:58,160
And it should not be something 
like, oh, make them like John or

527
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:00,000
make them like Jane because you 
know what? 

528
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:01,480
No, Jane's been around here for 
a while. 

529
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:03,520
Jane has a bunch of 
administrative access, right? 

530
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:05,800
Because Jane's super smart. 
We don't know about this person 

531
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:13,200
and super careful, but so, so 
something that's really, you 

532
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:17,080
know, and, and in a way that is 
that makes that person 

533
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,840
productive. 
Again, we talked about the 

534
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,800
security side of this, you know,
we wanted to make sure we do 

535
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:24,600
this in a least privileged 
manner. 

536
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:30,400
And so, you know, tee up sort of
like the, the three stools we 

537
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:32,800
think of, of identity 
government, the three legs of 

538
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:37,320
the stool at 3 stools, 3 legs of
the stool, you know, sort of 

539
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:43,120
the, the security compliance 
and, and provisioning which is 

540
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:46,360
making people more productive as
quickly as we can make them. 

541
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:51,000
So Newton, you talked in terms 
of outcome around a compliance 

542
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,200
outcome, but I'm seeing many 
other outcomes. 

543
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:57,440
I'm seeing a security outcome. 
So Jeff and I often use this 

544
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:05,240
fictitious scenario of do people
really need to approve access to

545
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:10,440
the cafeteria menu, do an 
application or a file on a share

546
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:14,800
that is the cafeteria menu? 
Does someone actually have to go

547
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:19,960
and approve that? 
Or is the risk so low that we 

548
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:23,040
could just give anybody 
permission to the cafeteria menu

549
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:25,080
has an account. 
They've they've gone through 

550
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:28,800
enough vetting that that 
information is so low risk to 

551
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:32,000
the organization doesn't have to
pass through human hands. 

552
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:37,320
And by not passing through human
hands, you no longer have the 

553
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:44,560
hurdle of now I have to manage X
number of approvals and I start 

554
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:47,520
getting into rubber stamping 
because this is just too much. 

555
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:51,120
I have a day job. 
I don't want a part time job 

556
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:55,360
approving access. 
So now you have, well, obviously

557
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:59,320
the efficiency driver because 
there's fewer approvals to make.

558
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:04,160
You have an accuracy driver, 
which leads to better security. 

559
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:08,480
So you have a security driver. 
So I'm seeing all those things 

560
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:12,600
in in what you're saying. 
That is, that is exactly how we,

561
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:18,360
you know, we, we see the world 
too, right, Which is an, an, an 

562
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:22,760
early advisor to Zilla Zasiso. 
He said to us, you know, he said

563
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,159
I think of security and 
compliance as two sides of the 

564
00:34:25,159 --> 00:34:30,520
same coin because compliance all
about about demonstrating that 

565
00:34:30,679 --> 00:34:35,040
the security best practices that
you said you intend to follow 

566
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:39,480
are the ones you follow, right? 
And so, you know, securing 

567
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:42,880
compliance outcomes kind of go 
hand in hand. 

568
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:48,280
What is interesting is that the 
compliance outcome comes with an

569
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:50,880
additional burden. 
And you alluded to that just 

570
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:53,239
now, which is about accuracy and
completeness, right? 

571
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,880
And because, you know, because 
as soon as it becomes a thing of

572
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:01,080
compliance, now the auditor 
wants to wants evidence. 

573
00:35:01,720 --> 00:35:07,840
And so, you know, another 
problem that we set our eyes on 

574
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:12,320
at Zilla around access reviews 
was sort of like this evidence 

575
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:15,800
problem, right? 
Which is, which is, you know, 

576
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:18,640
now, now we're kind of flipping 
it a little bit, right? 

577
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:22,520
I think now I'm a business user.
My job is to make sure the 

578
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:24,560
organization is compliant, 
right? 

579
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:27,120
So in the same way as that the 
other business users are there 

580
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:30,360
to do, I as a business user have
to become compliant, right? 

581
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:35,280
And so, so, you know, our direct
customers, the people who buy 

582
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:37,520
the Zilla product, they need a 
business outcome. 

583
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:43,840
And their business outcome is no
Dings on the audit, certainly 

584
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:46,440
not socks and things like that, 
because that gets the CFO's 

585
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:48,000
attention. 
And nobody wants the CFO's 

586
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:56,120
attention and, and prove it to 
auditors who in their past life 

587
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:59,120
have been accountants, because 
they're, they're making, they're

588
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:01,240
used to making sure that the 
pennies add up, right? 

589
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:06,840
And so, so, so on the compliance
side, we're faced with auditors 

590
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:11,880
who really check every ball line
and they need all the evidence. 

591
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,920
And, and so that's another thing
that we brought automation to 

592
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:19,560
bear, right, which is lock. 
Nobody should be manually saving

593
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:22,920
these things in Google Drive 
folders or in SharePoint folders

594
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:26,720
and, and things like that. 
It's like, why can the system 

595
00:36:26,720 --> 00:36:30,160
just not automate this? 
And that's the other thing that 

596
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:34,560
we do with, with part part of 
the accessory product is we just

597
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:36,000
automate all the evidence 
collection. 

598
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,240
And in some sense, we help the 
organization with the business 

599
00:36:39,240 --> 00:36:41,600
problem, in this case happens to
be one. 

600
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:46,240
Yeah, I kind of feel like in 
this case, when it comes to AI, 

601
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:50,600
it can take that compliance 
outcome because you can achieve 

602
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:56,640
the compliance outcome the old 
way, which is you need to review

603
00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:59,560
and approve every single 
request. 

604
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:06,600
The security outcome is actually
improved by inserting AI by just

605
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:10,040
putting a focus on what humans 
really need to decide. 

606
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:16,440
Now the AI has to learn and be 
able to accurately recommend or 

607
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:21,160
make decisions that are going to
that auditors aren't going to 

608
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:23,480
question. 
So it's there's probably an 

609
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:30,160
element of, you know, people 
have to build that, that 

610
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:36,520
confidence auditors IT people. 
But I think it builds over time 

611
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:39,240
as you can show that actually 
we're getting more accurate 

612
00:37:39,240 --> 00:37:44,240
results using AI than having 
people, you know, potentially 

613
00:37:44,240 --> 00:37:47,240
rubber stamping access. 
And if you use a, a risk model 

614
00:37:47,240 --> 00:37:51,680
and speak in the terms that 
CSO's think in, right? 

615
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:57,040
I mean, all of us as identity 
consultants and practitioners, 

616
00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:00,520
we're in the game of, you know, 
being risk evaluators and, and 

617
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,440
speaking in terms of risk. 
And this is really about 

618
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,520
reducing risk. 
That's right. 

619
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:09,080
That's that's the goal of 
compliance. 

620
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,520
But then when you look at 
actually how you achieve 

621
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:15,680
compliances, it's it's I don't 
know that it necessarily always 

622
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:19,280
drives better security. 
That's that's, that's exactly 

623
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:21,480
right. 
And in part, I think it happens 

624
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:27,040
because, you know, because 
you're overwhelming, you know, 

625
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:31,360
you're overwhelming people with 
things and you know, what you 

626
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:33,360
put your finger on is exactly 
right. 

627
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:39,000
I think being able to assess the
risk and calling attention to 

628
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:45,640
the entitlements that are high, 
high risk and highly sensitive 

629
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:52,040
versus, you know, I, I like the 
cafeteria menu analogy, right? 

630
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:57,120
Because because you know, it's, 
it's, you should not, they 

631
00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:01,200
should not get commingled in a 
manner that, that everybody 

632
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:06,920
thinks of the, you know, the 
administrative entitlement in an

633
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:10,240
AWS account equivalent to a 
cafeteria menu access, right? 

634
00:39:10,240 --> 00:39:14,000
Like they're completely very 
different levels of risk. 

635
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:22,400
You also want to call attention 
to to other aspects of as well, 

636
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:29,120
like you know, for example, 
identities now that are related 

637
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:35,960
to machine integrations, right? 
So identities that are service 

638
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:42,080
accounts intended for a 
application, identities that you

639
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:48,880
know, inherit entitlements and 
not very obvious ways, right? 

640
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:55,160
And this is where we can bring, 
bring even large, bring AI and 

641
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,360
more more specifically large 
language models to bear. 

642
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:03,280
You'd be surprised at how good 
they are at being able to tell 

643
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:07,800
you whether an AWS policy is 
something you should consider 

644
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:11,520
privileged or not. 
You know, and, and most people 

645
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:16,320
can't do that. 
So so again, I'm I'm a ten 

646
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:21,080
career writer. 
I want to try to envision how 

647
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:22,680
this new functionality is going 
to work. 

648
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:28,560
And let's take a scenario. 
Jeff hires Jim for the IDAC 

649
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:32,000
Corporation and which I. 
Would. 

650
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:33,920
Never view. 
That would never happen. 

651
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,240
Well, we don't have a cafeteria 
menu either, Jeff, so I would 

652
00:40:38,240 --> 00:40:41,280
like to file a complaint. 
It's been getting very boring in

653
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:44,960
terms of what we eat. 
But let's just say Jeff wants to

654
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:49,320
give Jim access to the cafeteria
menu on, you know, one of his 

655
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:51,200
first days. 
And that's not a birthright 

656
00:40:51,720 --> 00:40:55,880
provision. 
Walk us through kind of how the 

657
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:58,920
system evaluates that and 
decisions on it. 

658
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:01,320
Yeah. 
So the way to think about this 

659
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:06,680
is, you know, when Zilla 
integrates into all the systems 

660
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:11,480
in HR system and so on. 
Now we have a good map of, you 

661
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,640
know, what type of individual 
gets access to what. 

662
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:20,320
And now we can answer the 
question of with a high degree 

663
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:25,360
of confidence. 
And you know, if Jim walking 

664
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:31,080
into into the corporation with 
so and so job function as 

665
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:34,200
identified by different 
attributes that that are there 

666
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:42,440
in the HR system, what must Jim 
have access to and what may Jim 

667
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:50,040
have access to right. 
And then the, you know, the last

668
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:53,320
thing is that everything else is
just outliers, right? 

669
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:56,600
So if you sort of think about 
it, and this is probably how we 

670
00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:59,360
as humans might even think about
it, logically speaking, right? 

671
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:02,480
It just has not been very easy 
to operationalize. 

672
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:07,480
And so it's like, you know, if 
you, if you've determined that 

673
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:10,520
this is what you must have 
access to in order to be able to

674
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:15,200
do your job, then those just in 
some sense should be treated 

675
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:20,000
like birthright access. 
And if there are other entitled 

676
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:27,800
that you may get, then those 
could be things that are in some

677
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:31,760
sense not standing entitlements,
but perhaps pre approved. 

678
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:34,320
Pre approved in the sense that 
you ask for them, you get them, 

679
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:38,280
nobody needs to review and and 
approve, right? 

680
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:41,800
And so you get it. 
And then there's a separate 

681
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:44,600
decision that's application 
owners can make on whether they 

682
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:48,040
are standing entitlement. 
So what they are ones that are 

683
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:51,560
time bound or, or whatever that 
is right. 

684
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:55,560
But it's sort of like, you know,
this is what you must get and 

685
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:59,560
and then therefore it is 
something that I as an 

686
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:02,640
application or I have determined
it is something that I don't 

687
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:05,240
need to review it. 
It is something that I can 

688
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:07,680
present as defensible to an 
auditor. 

689
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:10,440
An auditor looks at it and goes,
OK, here is your great, this is 

690
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:12,480
your review. 
Here is this thing that you told

691
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:14,800
me these sort of people may 
have. 

692
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:18,240
And that makes sense to me. 
I don't need to look at every 

693
00:43:18,240 --> 00:43:22,160
single granular entitlement or I
may want to look at I'm an 

694
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:23,440
auditor. 
I don't know what I'm going to 

695
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:25,440
want to look at, right? 
Like, or I should rephrase. 

696
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:27,440
The rest of us don't know what 
they're going to want to look 

697
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:30,360
at. 
And you know, the, The funny 

698
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:38,160
thing is that, you know, every 
auditor is different and, and 

699
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:42,480
every auditor in every audit 
firm is different. 

700
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:46,280
So, but at the end of the day, 
we think of it as like, I, I 

701
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:51,440
don't really care, right? 
Like I want audit is a business 

702
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:54,040
outcome that just got to happen,
right? 

703
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:56,480
Or other a successful audit is 
the business right the audit. 

704
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:00,560
Can take place and that was. 
All it took to be successful. 

705
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:02,080
I think we had a lot of happy 
people out there. 

706
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:07,320
And so, so, you know, so making 
that defensible in an evidence 

707
00:44:07,720 --> 00:44:09,840
package that, hey, this is our 
practice, right? 

708
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:15,200
And, and so that's sort of the 
shape of the, the solution. 

709
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:18,960
I hope it logically sort of 
makes sense, you know, to all of

710
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:23,080
us. 
So, and then then, you know, 

711
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:25,760
people get what they need. 
People can request what they 

712
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:28,400
need. 
It doesn't get gunked up in, in 

713
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:30,560
approval process. 
And then the reviews are 

714
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:33,880
streamlined. 
So it's a, you know, deliver 

715
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:41,600
value in, in all of these three 
different, different legs of the

716
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:44,960
stool, if you will, right. 
We've talked a lot about this, 

717
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:47,160
this, this sounds like a, like a
data thing, right? 

718
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:49,600
Is we're pulling data. 
You've got all these connectors 

719
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:51,800
that are in place already. 
And so you're, you're taking 

720
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:55,520
that data and say, okay, here's 
here's what we think is, is what

721
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:58,240
should be. 
And I would imagine then some 

722
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:01,840
IGA analysts or I am analysts 
would probably look at that day 

723
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:05,880
and say, OK, do we need to maybe
tweak our onboarding roles or do

724
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:09,040
we send this to the business and
have them make a decision and 

725
00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:11,280
sort of help with that modelling
process? 

726
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:15,320
You talked about the auditor use
case, which of course, they're 

727
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:17,600
going to look at everything and 
sometimes they don't even know 

728
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:19,280
what they're looking at. 
Sorry, that's my jab at at 

729
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:23,520
auditors. 
But what about folks like Cisos?

730
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:25,960
I mean, I could imagine it'd be 
very powerful to get like their 

731
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:30,360
data back to say, here's what my
organization has and here's what

732
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:33,280
people have access to. 
And what are some of the 

733
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:37,120
scenarios that you see like a 
CISA would take this data and 

734
00:45:37,240 --> 00:45:39,360
help reduce risk for their 
organization? 

735
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:41,840
No, that's, that's a very good 
question, right. 

736
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:46,480
So as a CSO, there's a bunch of 
different outcomes you would be 

737
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:49,000
looking for. 
The risk reduction is clearly, 

738
00:45:50,240 --> 00:45:53,720
you know, clearly one that is, 
there's another outcome you want

739
00:45:53,720 --> 00:45:58,440
is that you don't want, you want
to be a partner for the business

740
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:03,400
and you want to enable the 
business and that means, you 

741
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:06,920
know, being able to make people 
efficient and productive and so 

742
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:09,760
on and so forth. 
So the other thing you wanna be,

743
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:12,440
of course, is you're responsible
for a compliance outcome. 

744
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:14,120
You wanna make sure that 
happens, right? 

745
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:19,000
Because that is, again, a 
business outcome as far as 

746
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:25,200
you're concerned. 
So as a CISO, you have to do all

747
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:29,200
of those things and then in, you
know, in terms of risk, risk 

748
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:33,840
reduction, getting people to 
least privilege in a manner that

749
00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:37,080
doesn't in, you know, doesn't 
have them pulling their hair out

750
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:39,840
every time, right? 
I think that's that's an 

751
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:44,760
important. 
So so sort of just evolving, 

752
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:47,440
evolving this practice as they 
go. 

753
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:51,640
I mean, it's interesting you put
it the way you put it, Jeff, 

754
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:52,880
which is that it's all about 
data. 

755
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:57,720
I mean, isn't it amazing that 
the entire industry has done so 

756
00:46:57,720 --> 00:47:01,600
little with the data that we're 
just sitting on, right. 

757
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:07,160
And and, and so that's, you 
know. 

758
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:11,160
I feel like as an untapped 
resource that people really 

759
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:12,520
aren't leveraging the 
organizations. 

760
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:15,760
You know, it takes a while, 
right, for cycles to for, for, 

761
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:18,440
you know, the organizational 
cycle for investment, right? 

762
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:22,600
Identity access management tools
typically are not very cheap and

763
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:25,560
it requires resources to run it.
And so it takes time, right, to 

764
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:27,640
get those tools in place. 
And you might have a good idea 

765
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:31,360
now, but it really doesn't see 
adoption until five years, 10 

766
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:33,080
years, whatever that upgrade 
cycle looks like. 

767
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:35,520
But man, I mean, these 
organizations are sitting on a 

768
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:38,840
treasure trove of data that 
could absolutely reduce risk. 

769
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:41,520
And a tool like this sounds 
awesome to be able to say, hey, 

770
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:43,200
what are we doing with that 
data? 

771
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:46,160
Let's pull it back. 
Let's do something with that 

772
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:48,080
data. 
I mean it doesn't do any good 

773
00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:51,840
sitting in a in a SIM or some 
other logging tool where it just

774
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:54,360
doesn't do anything until 
something bad happens like. 

775
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:57,840
That's right, That's right. 
And and also, you know, let's be

776
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:03,200
more proactive and also be able 
to tap that data when you do 

777
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:04,680
need to pay attention to 
something, right? 

778
00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:08,800
So I'll give you an example of, 
you know, the, the recent 

779
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:12,000
incidents that happened around, 
around Snowflake, right? 

780
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:15,920
And, and you know, if you, if 
you think about it, though, it 

781
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:19,720
was essentially a chain of 
events where there happened to 

782
00:48:19,720 --> 00:48:24,000
be certain service accounts tied
to Snowflake databases. 

783
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:26,200
And these accounts didn't have 
MFA on them, right? 

784
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:29,200
And so they were susceptible to 
passwords, spray attacks and 

785
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:31,080
what have you, right? 
It's always the basics. 

786
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:33,720
It was, it was really the 
basics, right? 

787
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:37,880
And so if you think about it, 
when, when, when something like 

788
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:40,920
now, first of all, you would 
think you want to be proactive 

789
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:47,000
and you want to be able to catch
this very, you know, very 

790
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:49,680
proactive, right? 
So, so that's certainly one 

791
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:53,520
outcome you want, which is, hey,
if you have a risk reduction 

792
00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:56,760
strategy of having multi factor 
authentication across the board,

793
00:48:56,960 --> 00:48:59,680
you as the CISO should be able 
to say, answer the question, 

794
00:48:59,880 --> 00:49:03,280
where are my risks associated 
with this lack of control, 

795
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:05,680
right? 
But the other side is that when 

796
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:09,160
an incident does happen, you 
should just simply be able to 

797
00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:13,360
ask the question, where does 
this affect my organization? 

798
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:18,840
And I think a system like Zilla 
will and many of our customers 

799
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:23,960
got that answer, you know, 
practically right away because, 

800
00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:27,360
because that data was there in 
their Zilla system, right? 

801
00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:31,240
And and at an enterprise scale 
and an enterprise security team 

802
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:35,840
should be able to similarly 
answer the question well, which 

803
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:38,760
one of the 1200 Snowflake 
instances we have across the 

804
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:41,720
board that have this problem and
what is the extent of that 

805
00:49:41,720 --> 00:49:44,520
problem, right. 
And that's also another 

806
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:48,480
interesting, interesting dynamic
that we'll see unfold over the 

807
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:51,880
next few years in this industry 
at large, right, which is the, 

808
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:56,800
the security threat detection 
threat hunting teams that have 

809
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:59,360
sort of kind of stayed away from
identity, right? 

810
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:05,560
Like we're not bad people, but 
but but like the whole, you 

811
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:11,200
know, having operationalizing 
this, this identity data as part

812
00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:15,360
of the SEC OPS is also SEC OPS 
practice is also something we 

813
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:18,400
will see evolve over the over 
the next few years. 

814
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:23,040
Again, in part of what we all 
know as identity professionals 

815
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:26,360
that it really is like 
increasingly going to be more 

816
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:31,800
relevant for security. 
So, so Nitin, one of the things 

817
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:36,840
that we end up debating on the 
show maybe every episode or at 

818
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:42,080
least every other episode is 
where's identity 3-5 years down 

819
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:43,440
the road? 
What's going to have the biggest

820
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:47,120
impact? 
And nine times out of 10, it's 

821
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:49,800
AI. 
You guys aren't waiting five 

822
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:52,120
years, right? 
You're you're getting some of 

823
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:55,960
the benefit of that right now is
Zeus we talked about today. 

824
00:50:57,160 --> 00:51:00,360
It seems like you, you know, if 
we just asked you the question, 

825
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:04,400
what's going to be the biggest 
pack of impact on IGA five years

826
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:06,040
on the road, you would have said
AI. 

827
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:09,960
My question for you is, what's 
next? 

828
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:12,360
What's the future for Zilla 
Security? 

829
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:17,560
Yeah, you know, I mean the, the,
the future for Zilla security, 

830
00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:23,280
we, we are, you know, we, we are
really excited about this 

831
00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:30,760
particular space and, and, and 
the importance of identity as we

832
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:34,480
see in the future around 
security and and compliance and 

833
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:41,720
everything else. 
So we really want to bring sort 

834
00:51:41,720 --> 00:51:48,960
of this modern automation 
centric approach to to bear on 

835
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:52,320
the problem. 
And sometimes the solution calls

836
00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:56,160
for creative uses of AI and ML 
like what we talked about. 

837
00:51:56,400 --> 00:52:00,280
Sometimes the solution calls for
creative uses of different forms

838
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:06,280
of technology, like Zeus and and
bringing it all together in a 

839
00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:12,320
simple, easy to use, intuitive 
interface, sort of pulling 

840
00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:17,240
together a complete solution. 
That's how we see, you know, 

841
00:52:17,240 --> 00:52:22,160
that's how we see us evolving, 
you know, not not building 

842
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:24,080
techie solutions for techie's 
sake, right? 

843
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:26,800
Where you have to go every 
integration of a Configurator to

844
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:28,920
bring up a JDBC driver, you got 
to go do this. 

845
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:33,320
That like none of that, right? 
No other vertical does this. 

846
00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:36,640
I don't understand why. 
Why we we would or should. 

847
00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:40,920
I'd tell me a special like that.
You know, we are very special. 

848
00:52:42,240 --> 00:52:45,520
So so that's sort of how you 
know, that's sort of how we see 

849
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:49,200
it. 
And and so you'll see us bring 

850
00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:55,560
bring as appropriate AI to bear 
on the age-old integrations 

851
00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:58,280
problem. 
You'll see us bring it AI to 

852
00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:02,480
bear and other creative 
solutions to to the classic 

853
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:05,600
roles problem. 
You'll see us do a lot more 

854
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:10,640
automation in terms of helping 
the lives of, you know, people 

855
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:13,000
who are worried about compliance
easy. 

856
00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:17,360
And there's a lot there in in 
all of these three. 

857
00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:21,520
And then you'll see us helping 
the security and SEC OPS teams 

858
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:27,800
with the Zilla product as the, 
you know, the spaces are just no

859
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:31,800
doubt meant to meant to get 
closer and closer. 

860
00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:37,000
So you're used to looking to the
stars for inspiration and to 

861
00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:40,200
find out what's next. 
That was my very clever segue to

862
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:42,000
get into what I really. 
Want to ask you which is. 

863
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:45,000
Astronomy. 
We were talking before we hit 

864
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:46,600
the record button. 
You mentioned that you're a 

865
00:53:47,160 --> 00:53:50,640
amateur astronomer. 
Now I'm going to say you said 

866
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:54,760
you're an amateur astronomer, 
but then you said I I was it Co 

867
00:53:54,760 --> 00:54:00,520
rent or Co own a telescope. 
OK, When you say I own a 

868
00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:02,280
telescope, that doesn't strike 
me as amateur. 

869
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:06,240
Well, it's interesting, right? 
The, the, the professional 

870
00:54:06,240 --> 00:54:09,400
astronomers are the people who 
get PhDs and such and really, 

871
00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:15,280
you know, spend their day job, 
day job doing astronomy, whereas

872
00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:19,480
we're day job doing identity and
identity security and then as a 

873
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:23,240
hobby doing astronomy. 
But yes, I think, you know, 

874
00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:28,560
there's, there's multiple very, 
very active astronomy clubs 

875
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:30,080
throughout the country, no 
doubt. 

876
00:54:30,080 --> 00:54:32,640
But one of the oldest ones, he 
is here in the Boston area. 

877
00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:37,400
And believe it or not, at that 
time, 100 plus years ago when it

878
00:54:37,400 --> 00:54:40,920
started, it was called the 
Amateur Telescope makers of 

879
00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:44,480
Boston. 
And so and so the name is stuck.

880
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:48,600
And you know, because back then,
of course, making a telescope 

881
00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:50,760
was a big deal. 
There was no easy way to get one

882
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:57,920
and so so we joined that 
astronomy club all 20 plus years

883
00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:00,880
ago, actually maybe 25 plus 
years ago so. 

884
00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:05,800
You're a long timer. 
Of of and, and we really enjoyed

885
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:11,440
being part of the Astronomy Club
and we would go on long camping 

886
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:15,680
trips in dark sky areas with the
Astronomy Club north of Maine. 

887
00:55:15,680 --> 00:55:20,520
And, and then a few of us got 
together and purchased a 

888
00:55:20,520 --> 00:55:25,240
telescope that's, that's 
lovingly called a Godzilla. 

889
00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:29,880
And, and it has a 36 inch 
mirror, which is a very large 

890
00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:33,720
mirror, But you know, it's very 
impressive to kids because it 

891
00:55:33,720 --> 00:55:36,360
stands 15 feet tall, right? 
Like, so it's like, whoa, what 

892
00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:39,600
is this thing? 
And, and it's amazing it's in. 

893
00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:40,760
A trailer too, right? 
This is. 

894
00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:43,080
Not and it has its own trailer. 
That is correct. 

895
00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:47,480
It has its own trailer and it's 
a very, you know, it's 

896
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:50,720
beautifully engineered with all 
the trusses and things. 

897
00:55:50,720 --> 00:55:52,760
Then you have to put it together
and you've set it up and it 

898
00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:56,160
takes about an hour to set it up
and, you know, a little less 

899
00:55:56,160 --> 00:55:59,960
than that to tear down. 
And so we would have a great 

900
00:55:59,960 --> 00:56:03,200
time with that. 
And I say we would because, you 

901
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:05,960
know, in the intervening years, 
kids came along and astronomy 

902
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:09,600
has been on a bit of a hiatus 
for a, for a period. 

903
00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:13,640
But that telescope is 
incredible. 

904
00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:15,680
It's the it's the largest 
telescope on the Eastern 

905
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:17,040
seaboard here. 
Oh, wow. 

906
00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:20,440
So Boston is the birth place of 
IGA. 

907
00:56:20,680 --> 00:56:22,960
It has the biggest telescope on 
the Eastern seaboard. 

908
00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:25,440
I feel like there's like some, 
there's some grassroots moves 

909
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:27,960
and each come here like can we 
get that written into like, I 

910
00:56:27,960 --> 00:56:29,920
don't know, the, the 
Constitution or something for 

911
00:56:29,920 --> 00:56:31,400
Massachusetts or something like 
that. 

912
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:34,800
We should, right? 
The only thing Boston doesn't 

913
00:56:34,800 --> 00:56:39,800
have is is a is is weather. 
That is not very friendly to 

914
00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:43,040
doing astronomy right. 
As a Chicagoan, I can I can 

915
00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:45,440
absolutely empathize, that's why
I'm from Chicago. 

916
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:49,200
So. 
Ninton, I'm wondering, does the 

917
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:53,080
light pollution of being in the 
Northeast and being near a big 

918
00:56:53,080 --> 00:56:57,480
city like Boston, does that 
affect your your amateur 

919
00:56:57,840 --> 00:57:00,000
astronomy? 
It absolutely does. 

920
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:03,120
And in fact, it it gets worse 
year after year after year. 

921
00:57:03,520 --> 00:57:08,880
In fact, there is a, you know, 
one of my, you know, friends 

922
00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:13,200
from the Astronomy club is very,
very passionate about, about 

923
00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:17,320
like pollution and so on, an 
advocate, advocate across 

924
00:57:17,320 --> 00:57:21,440
multiple towns. 
And, and you know, the tragedy 

925
00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:23,720
of all of this is that it 
doesn't have to be like this, 

926
00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:26,360
right? 
It's like, why would you take a,

927
00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:29,720
a light and point it up when 
really you want to see what's on

928
00:57:29,720 --> 00:57:32,280
the ground that you don't 
report? 

929
00:57:33,360 --> 00:57:36,040
So you'd think it would be, it 
would be the most common sense 

930
00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:38,400
thing to do, which is to have 
these full cut off lights that 

931
00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:41,200
are pointing to the ground and 
not necessarily leaking like to 

932
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:44,080
the to the sky, But it is what 
it is. 

933
00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:49,920
And so, yes, you have to seek 
out, you know, darker skies and,

934
00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:52,720
and it's amazing when you do and
you can see the Milky Way in the

935
00:57:52,720 --> 00:57:55,000
sky. 
It's unbelievable. 

936
00:57:55,040 --> 00:57:58,240
I mean, you can see that with 
the naked eye and places like 

937
00:57:58,240 --> 00:58:03,640
Utah, even I was on vacation in 
central Utah and just the you 

938
00:58:03,640 --> 00:58:09,600
can see the Milky Way and kind 
of like these clouds of I guess 

939
00:58:09,600 --> 00:58:15,000
there's gases in the universe 
that it's mind blowing. 

940
00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:20,920
You can. 
See in a dark state I guess is 

941
00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:23,120
the way to put it versus nearest
city. 

942
00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:24,760
That's correct. 
It's mind blowing. 

943
00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:26,520
I mean, there's a bunch of 
things like this that are very 

944
00:58:26,520 --> 00:58:28,440
mind blowing when you look 
through a telescope. 

945
00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:31,440
I think the one that comes to my
mind is something called the 

946
00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:33,680
Orion Nebula. 
You know, I don't know if you 

947
00:58:33,680 --> 00:58:35,120
ever, ever had a chance to see 
it. 

948
00:58:35,120 --> 00:58:38,000
It's sort of like in the Sword 
of Orion the Hunter. 

949
00:58:38,560 --> 00:58:42,640
And even if you take a decent 
pair of binoculars and point to 

950
00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:45,320
it, you can actually see what 
looks like a star is not a star,

951
00:58:45,880 --> 00:58:49,080
right? 
And and through a telescope like

952
00:58:49,080 --> 00:58:53,000
that, the one that we have, you 
can actually see an incredible 

953
00:58:53,000 --> 00:58:56,320
amount of detail. 
You can actually see like, you 

954
00:58:56,320 --> 00:58:59,000
know, like this fog around 
stars. 

955
00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:04,120
That fog is like has structure 
to it and, and it's amazing 

956
00:59:04,120 --> 00:59:06,080
because that's where stars are 
being born, right? 

957
00:59:06,080 --> 00:59:09,440
And so now it's like, Oh my God,
like talk about blowing, you 

958
00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:12,320
know, your mind, right? 
Like stars are being born 

959
00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:15,880
because gas is coming together 
and with gravity and you can 

960
00:59:15,880 --> 00:59:19,640
actually see that. 
Yeah, I think what's also mind 

961
00:59:19,640 --> 00:59:22,440
blowing is like when you're 
looking at a star being born, 

962
00:59:22,880 --> 00:59:24,760
that might have been 5 billion 
years ago. 

963
00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:26,520
Exactly. 
That's right. 

964
00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:31,040
By the time that light actually 
reaches the Earth, that's how 

965
00:59:31,040 --> 00:59:33,960
long it takes. 
It could be on the decline by 

966
00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:37,800
now, yeah. 
That you might see the birth and

967
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:42,480
and end of it all in in a in a 
very flash of a pan or flash of 

968
00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:47,160
an eye, so to speak. 
Yeah, so I mean, my, I'm not an 

969
00:59:47,160 --> 00:59:51,160
astronomer as in hands on like 
Newton is, but I watched a lot 

970
00:59:51,160 --> 00:59:55,160
of these YouTube videos and, you
know, with the the Hubble 

971
00:59:55,160 --> 00:59:58,880
telescope that was launched, 
what was it like 40-50 years ago

972
00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:01,200
or something like that? 
The amount of things that 

973
01:00:01,200 --> 01:00:04,520
they're seeing now deep into the
universe, they're starting to 

974
01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:08,000
have new understandings about 
the universe and things like 

975
01:00:08,480 --> 01:00:10,840
the. 
You know, I mean, if you go back

976
01:00:10,840 --> 01:00:15,800
100 years, astronomers thought 
the extent of the universe was 

977
01:00:15,800 --> 01:00:19,120
what we call the Milky Way. 
Now it's the Galaxy that. 

978
01:00:19,760 --> 01:00:25,640
Our solar system is somewhere in
the middle of it's one of what 

979
01:00:25,640 --> 01:00:30,280
is it millions or billions of 
galaxies? 

980
01:00:30,280 --> 01:00:32,720
This is totally mind blowing. 
Observable versus the 

981
01:00:32,760 --> 01:00:34,200
unobservable universe. 
Right. 

982
01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:37,160
Yeah, that's correct. 
You know, Hey, invite for you 

983
01:00:37,160 --> 01:00:38,440
guys. 
If you're ever in the Boston 

984
01:00:38,440 --> 01:00:43,440
Air, we'll find time to go find 
a dark, dark spot and and 

985
01:00:43,600 --> 01:00:45,840
hopefully the clouds will 
cooperate and we can go look at 

986
01:00:45,840 --> 01:00:48,200
some cool stuff through our 
telescope. 

987
01:00:48,560 --> 01:00:50,760
I will absolutely take you up on
that, so be careful. 

988
01:00:51,000 --> 01:00:53,760
Cool, we can talk identity while
we're at it. 

989
01:00:54,040 --> 01:00:55,920
Yeah, right. 
Well, let's be honest, identity 

990
01:00:55,920 --> 01:00:58,440
is still at the center no matter
how many of these nebula and. 

991
01:00:58,440 --> 01:01:00,760
Galaxies. 
Are at identity is still at the 

992
01:01:00,760 --> 01:01:05,080
very center of all that. 
All right, let's go ahead and 

993
01:01:05,080 --> 01:01:08,560
wrap it up for this episode. 
Nitin, thank you so much for 

994
01:01:08,560 --> 01:01:11,480
sharing your time with us. 
It's been really great to kind 

995
01:01:11,480 --> 01:01:14,280
of catch up with you and really 
kind of understand where Zilla's

996
01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:15,880
coming into this. 
I'll have links in our show 

997
01:01:15,880 --> 01:01:17,800
notes for people to connect with
you on LinkedIn if they have 

998
01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:21,520
questions, whether it's about 
IGA or Zilla or astronomy. 

999
01:01:21,560 --> 01:01:24,640
Either way, I'm sure, I'm sure 
you're happy to engage on that. 

1000
01:01:25,600 --> 01:01:29,360
Go out, visit the website 
zillasecurity.com, ZILLA, 

1001
01:01:29,680 --> 01:01:33,160
security.com and of course you 
can always visit us on the web, 

1002
01:01:33,160 --> 01:01:36,280
idacpodcast.com, we're on 
YouTube. 

1003
01:01:36,400 --> 01:01:38,080
Come check out our YouTube 
channel. 

1004
01:01:38,200 --> 01:01:41,720
You can see the faces of these 
conversations that are taking 

1005
01:01:41,720 --> 01:01:44,720
place at idacpodcast.tv. 
That'll take you right to us. 

1006
01:01:44,720 --> 01:01:47,640
So I think with that, we'll go 
ahead and leave it for this week

1007
01:01:47,680 --> 01:01:50,560
NIT and Jim, thank you so much 
for your guys time this week and

1008
01:01:50,560 --> 01:01:52,240
we'll talk with everyone else in
the next one. 

1009
01:01:52,760 --> 01:01:54,640
Thank you very much for having 
me, it's been a pleasure. 

1010
01:01:56,960 --> 01:02:00,040
You've been listening to 
Identity at the Center. 

1011
01:02:00,360 --> 01:02:04,480
We hope you've enjoyed the show.
Make sure to like, rate and 

1012
01:02:04,480 --> 01:02:08,080
review, and we'll be back soon. 
But in the meantime, hit the 

1013
01:02:08,080 --> 01:02:11,480
website at 
identity@thecenter.com. 

1014
01:02:12,080 --> 01:02:16,200
See you next time on Identity at
the Center.