1 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:10,960 This is identity at the center. Welcome to the Identity at the 2 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:12,520 Center podcast. I'm Jeff, and that's Jim. 3 00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:14,040 Hey, Jim. Hey, Jeff, how are you? 4 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:16,040 How bad yourself? Doing great. 5 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:19,000 Here are 2025. Feels like there's so many 6 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:21,320 people to thank. There is there's a lot of people 7 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:22,480 definitely give a shout out to Shirley. 8 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:25,480 She's behind the scenes MVP. So Shirley, if you're listening, 9 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:28,400 this is it's all possible because a lot of the work that 10 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:29,880 she put in to help us get this going. 11 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:32,040 Yeah. And RSM sums here, yeah. 12 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:33,720 RSM. So we got some banners for that. 13 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:36,360 We have a nice little banner for like identity at the center 14 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:39,080 that's behind our guests. And yeah, it's been a very cool. 15 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:43,280 I think we're slowly but surely starting to figure this out a 16 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:45,040 little bit. Have you gotten any negative 17 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:48,440 comments that we have AQR code? No, I don't think anybody 18 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:51,440 actually scans it. I have no idea if they do or 19 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:53,280 not. So it just seems like an 20 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:56,400 interesting idea to put up there and maybe maybe help somebody, I 21 00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:58,640 don't know. Yeah, it's been really cool. 22 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:01,800 A lot of our listeners have been here this week and just stopped 23 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:05,960 by the booth, said hi, told us to listen to the podcast and 24 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:08,160 that they find just to be a big service. 25 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:10,440 And it's just like, wow. Which is the best part of doing 26 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:11,640 this. So they tell some people to 27 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:13,480 listen. So it definitely means a lot any 28 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:16,440 time someone comes up and just takes the time to say, hey, you 29 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:18,240 know, thanks for listening. And I'm always curious to like 30 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:20,120 where they find us because we don't advertise. 31 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:22,640 So it's like, hey, well, someone told me about it or whatever 32 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:23,840 maybe. So super cool. 33 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:27,800 I think the other thing that makes the conference seem so 34 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:32,160 great was all the people who volunteer to speak and be on 35 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:34,880 panels and kind of like pay it forward. 36 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:39,280 And one of our past guests, our guest today is one of those 37 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:42,520 people who paid it forward. And why don't you introduce, I 38 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:45,320 don't want to steal your, your role on the podcast. 39 00:01:45,320 --> 00:01:47,240 Now you're doing so well. Yeah, Let's get to our guest. 40 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:51,400 His name is Sean Odell and he is here of his own free will. 41 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:54,520 His opinions are his own, right? All that legal stuff. 42 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:56,960 Like we're just talking to Sean at the moment, right, Sean? 43 00:01:57,120 --> 00:01:59,360 Yes, Sir, you got it. OK, so Sean, tell us a little 44 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:01,960 bit about like you were with us before, a couple times actually, 45 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:05,200 but for a brief kind of intro like what is it your your day 46 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:07,880 and job is? Do a lot of stuff with identity 47 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:10,479 security both in consumer and and workforce at at the Walt 48 00:02:10,479 --> 00:02:14,920 Disney Company specifically focusing on continuous identity 49 00:02:14,920 --> 00:02:18,320 management at at at Disney and a plethora of other 50 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:20,760 responsibilities is all the way over on the consumer side. 51 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,000 And every other domain you can think of is workforce. 52 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:27,560 So SSOIGA, Pam, make stuff happen. 53 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:30,280 Figure out figure out tough problems and the plethora of 54 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:32,440 integrations a company that size gives you on a daily basis. 55 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:33,840 It is so much fun. So much fun. 56 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:35,480 Excellent use of the word plethora. 57 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:38,680 For example, we actually had a panel today. 58 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:41,440 So I moderate the panel that you were part of as a, you know, the 59 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:43,080 main kind of driving force behind us. 60 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:45,960 Let's be honest, why don't we start there? 61 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:49,440 Let's recap the panel and it was called bringing it all together, 62 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:53,520 harnessing the capabilities with event driven IAM. 63 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:55,240 Pun intended. Pun intended. 64 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:58,280 Yeah, for sure. So tell us what was the panel 65 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:00,160 about? Sort of give us kind of a 66 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:02,000 synopsis of it for people who weren't able to be there. 67 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:04,640 So we we started off First off, the panel was absolutely great. 68 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:07,200 I think the the way you handle it was absolutely fantastic. 69 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:09,080 The layout was great. So you are when you go in the 70 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:11,000 right way, because flatter will get you everywhere with me. 71 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:12,880 So I. Appreciate that more stickers, 72 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:17,520 more stickers my pocket. We set it up pretty nicely. 73 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:19,720 The first part was giving background and contacts like 74 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:22,720 what, what is Cape, what this use case is, what's a real, 75 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:24,360 what's a real, what's a real example? 76 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:28,360 Which then flowed nicely into asking all the panels to Ansel 77 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:30,880 Toshi Begwali. We got Mike Kaiser, Beta, Andrew 78 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:33,760 Cameron from GM and myself and we all played off each other 79 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:35,640 very well. And we had very disparate 80 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:38,600 examples that all resonated. And we, we kind of covered like 81 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:40,400 what we wanted to cover like in the 1st 15 minutes. 82 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:44,280 And then the audience just took off the questions. 83 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:46,480 It was like we threw away all the agenda. 84 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:48,440 It's like, well, we had an idea and they're like, well, they hit 85 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:50,800 all the topics and we wanted to hit on the agenda just by asking 86 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:53,280 questions. So that tells me a lot that 87 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:57,840 people are starting to really embrace the event driven 88 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:02,480 approaches here. And the, the the conference here 89 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:07,760 is coming really full circle with embracing like 5 key 90 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:13,000 disciplines like the consumer identity, sorry to say it, AI. 91 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:15,760 We almost made it the entire time. 92 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:18,000 Too about 6. Seconds left. 6 seconds left. 93 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:20,000 Was that 50 minute panel? Yep. 94 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:21,760 And Andrew Cameron. Andrew Cameron. 95 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:24,040 Yeah, Andrew Cameron. Ian said, I don't want to say 96 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,760 it, but I said we did AI. So they had kids, kids identity 97 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:30,720 meant non human. They had AI think it was citizen 98 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:33,240 identity. And there was one more and but 99 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:36,440 it, it said it was a nice non Venn diagram, Venn diagram from 100 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:38,120 Andy. But it just highlighted the 101 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:43,720 importance that the, the main 2 buzzwords here are NHI and AI. 102 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:46,280 They really are. But the foundational pieces to 103 00:04:46,280 --> 00:04:50,760 making that safe, secure reality and realizable is you need event 104 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:53,600 driven. You need to have a continuous 105 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:56,680 identity paradigm to get to the realization and the controls of 106 00:04:56,680 --> 00:05:00,160 what AI can give you and the security you can have with all 107 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:02,520 of your what I like to call as workload. 108 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:05,200 I am not NHI because I just the way I am is they're all 109 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:08,160 workloads. I follow Martin Copinger and 110 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:09,680 what Eric Wallstrom's doing over in Gardner. 111 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:12,200 Like I like workload. I am as a as a generic term 112 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:16,200 because almost everything's a workload, a machine, your 113 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:18,920 device, your laptop. So we're viewing off topics and 114 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:21,720 continuous, but I want to want to pull it back to where the 115 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:25,000 foundation for a lot of things is data and that's continuous. 116 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:27,560 That's event driven. So I think I think the panel was 117 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:29,600 fantastic. Some of the questions that I, I, 118 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:32,800 I heard from the audience was, and I was really shocked, Jeff, 119 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:35,200 it was more, how do I implement this? 120 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:37,320 What do I do? If they were very, it was very, 121 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:40,520 it was, it was technical. It wasn't like, oh, give me the 122 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,120 boxes and arrows. It was more like, like a great 123 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:48,480 question was about rate limiting and thresholds and throughput. 124 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:51,840 And I was like, wow, like then they all looked to me and I'm 125 00:05:51,840 --> 00:05:54,440 like, well, I guess I'm answering this question and then 126 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:56,040 you. Were you were the only one who 127 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:57,440 sort of raised your microphone they. 128 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:00,120 All were like, I'm like, OK, got it. 129 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:03,280 But the answer and I gave her the answer and she just was 130 00:06:03,280 --> 00:06:05,440 like, yeah, but, and she kept pressing on it and I'm like, so 131 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:08,920 you really want to. Then Otle took, took a stab and 132 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:10,640 then Andrew took a stab. But then it what it came back 133 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:15,280 down to was the data that you're going to be using in these 134 00:06:15,280 --> 00:06:18,040 security event tokens with continuous identity gives you 135 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:21,880 the ability to to be less chatty with tokens for an example. 136 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:24,240 And I thought it was very, it was a very good distinction that 137 00:06:24,840 --> 00:06:27,920 by, by by harnessing and utilizing this paradigm 138 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:31,120 continuous identity, you have less tokens flying around the 139 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:32,760 wild because you're, you're being more precise. 140 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:35,760 Like I can give you all a token for 24 hours and not worry about 141 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:36,920 it. Because if I have all these 142 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:39,440 detective controls happening in the background and integrations 143 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:42,360 that if you look suspect or malicious, I can just say, oh, 144 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:46,480 Jim's cool, Jeff, you look suspect. 145 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:48,480 I'm just, I'm just going to revoke your session. 146 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,320 But that's one token versus having to always do token 147 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:52,760 refresh, token refresh, token refresh. 148 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:54,280 So I thought that was a really good example. 149 00:06:54,280 --> 00:06:57,720 And she understood this spot on, which is I'm, I was, I was so 150 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:00,800 happy, so happy because the maturation levels raising more 151 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:03,680 and more like when we first talked about Cape. 152 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:04,960 Yeah. I want to ask you if there was a 153 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:07,960 difference in mindset or what did you notice from the one we 154 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:11,280 did last year, which I think was more presenting this idea and 155 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:14,520 sort of getting people up to speed versus this year where a 156 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:17,480 year has goals. Now it's like, OK, how how much 157 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:20,880 more real is SSF and can we? Can we go back one more year to 158 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:22,560 23? So when I first presented it, I 159 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:25,720 had to give them the breakdown like here's what a JWT looks 160 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:28,720 like, here's the data in it, here's why you use it. 161 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:32,040 In 2024, we did that awesome panel and it got better. 162 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:34,920 But then even this year, but it was more yeah, the background, 163 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:36,840 we understand it, the use case. Cool. 164 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:41,320 But now they're like, how do it tell me how to use this? 165 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:44,280 Like I, it's almost like you, you want this more. 166 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:46,240 How do I get it? They were looking for, for 167 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:51,520 prescriptive guidance on it. And it, it made me very, it made 168 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:55,200 me very happy because we put a, we put a lot of hard work into 169 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:58,280 this in the, in the standards bodies and even with working 170 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:01,960 externally with, with companies like like Octa and Apple, that 171 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:04,800 it's becoming a reality. And even at the last Gardner 172 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:08,800 interop, I mean, 30 plus people came, came to interop and test 173 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:09,840 it out. That's huge. 174 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:14,000 I think, I think MM Kaiser was saying on on stage that he's 175 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:15,880 never seen adoption that quipped that fast. 176 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:18,880 And I was just, I was floor. So I mean, I know Otto's excited 177 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:21,440 about it. I am Shane, our other working 178 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:22,680 group Co chair is excited about it. 179 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:25,760 Everyone is. We bring it up a lot with like 180 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:29,080 vendors and asking them what is their plan to support SSF. 181 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:32,159 And and I always ask. And I think that's, that's 182 00:08:32,159 --> 00:08:33,840 probably one of the more important things you can do is 183 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:37,880 like customers of of these products that say, what are you, 184 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:41,120 what are your plans to support shared signals framework? 185 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:43,640 Because are you going to? Correct, because it is my 186 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:45,080 requirement as your customer exactly. 187 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:46,720 I want to communicate that way more. 188 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:49,760 Customers who do that, the faster it gets out to road map 189 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:53,160 adoption, which then drives interoperability and then hey, 190 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:54,320 guess what, we're sharing signals. 191 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:58,960 Sharing is scaring right? Exactly 1 of the other fun 192 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:01,360 takeaways from it. Was it it naturally? 193 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:05,480 I mean, if I'm off base here, but it naturally progressed from 194 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:09,480 capabilities into Cape into like data. 195 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:13,000 It's a natural progression. Like to do this you need data 196 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:16,200 foundations and it just it was interesting and someone asked a 197 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:18,720 question. I forgot who it was, but it was 198 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:22,080 more of who owns this. And I know you were like, I'm 199 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:23,200 sorry, what? That was Blot. 200 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:24,600 Yeah, yeah, that's right. It was. 201 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:26,000 Yeah, I know you. You hopped on. 202 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:29,200 You're like I got, I want, I want it on this one and it and. 203 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:30,840 It's such a loaded term though, I know. 204 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:33,600 What do you mean by ownership? So we all said it depends. 205 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:35,480 And Otto said it depends. And I'm like, yes. 206 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:38,360 And what it came down to is I think I think you called that 207 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,360 out like it's it's politics, one reason. 208 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:44,400 And then Otto said everyone. And then I think Andrew, Andrew 209 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:46,640 Cameron was like whispered stakeholder. 210 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:49,240 And then he's like, yeah, it makes sense. 211 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:53,040 But I think that was like, that was the question that sparked 212 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:56,880 like 15 hands. So it was, it was awesome to 213 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:57,600 say. It really was. 214 00:09:57,840 --> 00:09:59,440 I was flattered. I was flattered to actually be 215 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:00,760 there. It was a really good question. 216 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:03,400 And I think this is something that gets overlooked a lot is, 217 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:06,360 you know, you go off and buy tools and you build programs and 218 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:09,480 all kinds of stuff and it's like, OK, well, what are the 219 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:11,640 rules and responsibilities within your IEM program? 220 00:10:11,680 --> 00:10:16,920 And a lot of the stuff is not technical, it is agreement and 221 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:19,720 whatever political structure your organization runs in to 222 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:22,480 say, OK, here's how we're going to collectively operate tending 223 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:24,640 things forward. Was there anything that 224 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:25,960 surprised? You for the. 225 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:28,560 Conversation today like was there something that's like oh, 226 00:10:28,560 --> 00:10:31,920 I didn't think about that or was it kind of was it kind of what 227 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:34,520 you were expecting the questions because I felt like it made my 228 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:36,120 job way easier so thank you to everyone. 229 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:40,680 Audience to ask a question was we spent 30 minutes I think 230 00:10:40,680 --> 00:10:44,120 straight on questions for the audience after a quick like, 231 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:46,400 hey, we're gonna level set real quick for like 10-15 minutes and 232 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:47,880 then it was just Bang, Bang, bang questions. 233 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:49,920 No, I think it, I think earlier I covered it. 234 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:52,400 The only thing that surprised you was that they were they were 235 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:55,200 above a baseline. I was talking about that and 236 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:56,760 they were really above water, which is good. 237 00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:59,840 Nothing, no question. Really, really shocked us at 238 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:00,480 all. Pretty much. 239 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:06,040 There was an interesting 1 towards the end about relevancy, 240 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:09,800 context and efficacy of signals. That was a I'm sorry, yeah, 241 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:12,600 Signals. It was a very, that's also a 242 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:16,320 very loaded question. And the, the TLDR bit was can 243 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:19,400 you trust external signals in your, in your platform to emit 244 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:21,200 more? And the answer is no. 245 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:24,440 If there, there are points of data and it's all relative to 246 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:27,040 where if that's your only source, that's all you have the 247 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:30,240 answer to your own question. But if, if it's one out of many, 248 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:33,200 do you have five sources? And that one is like, is it a 249 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:35,000 20% weight? Is it a 5% weight? 250 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:36,920 And it, it's subjective. I can't give you the answer. 251 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:40,360 You can't give him the answer. Only his data could give him the 252 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:42,280 answer. So I think that was, that didn't 253 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:44,760 shock me, but it was very much like, oh, they're thinking that 254 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:48,000 way now, which is good. Yeah, that ownership question I 255 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:51,240 thought was very bad and I think you heard it super well because 256 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:54,240 I think it's a loaded term most what you called. 257 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:56,040 It I don't think it was a gotcha question. 258 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:57,120 I think it was a general. It was. 259 00:11:57,160 --> 00:11:59,040 It was a genuine. It was a genuine. 260 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:01,080 We have to address this side of the software it. 261 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:02,920 Was like a help me understand this exactly. 262 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:04,840 Yeah. You got into a discussion about 263 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:07,840 policies and Mike talked about federation. 264 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:10,920 So I, I was trying to picture exactly what he meant. 265 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:18,000 Was it that each end system will, you know, take the event 266 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:21,640 signals and apply policies to them and they will have a 267 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:25,920 framework for policy decision making, policy enforcement? 268 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:30,120 Or will there be some kind of middle tier layer that does that 269 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:34,080 for the applications? I think you can have both, but I 270 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:37,360 think what Mike was talking about was if if I integrate with 271 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:41,280 your system, for example, I send you a prescriptive action that 272 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:43,720 says we have an agreement that you're going to action on this. 273 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:47,800 The policy in your system says when I receive a session revoked 274 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:51,280 token, I take this action. That's a policy because you're 275 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:53,480 saying intake maps to this thing. 276 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:56,200 You're actually building what Otso and I joke about, which is 277 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:59,480 that capability matrix, that's policy. 278 00:12:59,680 --> 00:13:03,800 So if if say, for example, let's say Jeff sends you a signal and 279 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:06,400 you're like, that's just information because I may not 280 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:09,680 trust Jeff stuff, but our agreement is I am your IDP. 281 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:13,640 I'm telling you revoke this session, your policy and your 282 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:16,720 app, which is a very loaded turn to say it's more like a rule. 283 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:21,240 Whenever I get a token from Sean, my job is to revoke this 284 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:23,160 session. That's where you're talking 285 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:26,040 about Federated policy. Because then from a transmitter 286 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:28,560 perspective, when I send you something, I have my own policy 287 00:13:28,560 --> 00:13:31,680 that says if I get these signals coming in from disparate sources 288 00:13:31,680 --> 00:13:33,480 and and their risk scores over a tolerance. 289 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:39,040 My policy says if signal of this type session revoke is malicious 290 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:42,160 and the scores over 90, I have to embed a token to these 291 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:44,520 systems and you're one of them. That's my policy. 292 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:46,960 That's your policy. That's what I think Mike was 293 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:48,440 talking about with Federation's are there. 294 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:53,200 So where do you where do you see the decision being made on which 295 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:57,840 signals which events to send to which applications? 296 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:00,920 So for example, we've talked about, you know, Mike Lazar 297 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:03,480 presenting South Point, we're talking about South Point A 298 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:05,400 we've integrated into this framework. 299 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:10,440 I mean do you send him every signal or send self on every 300 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:12,160 signal that you have in the database? 301 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:15,480 It's a great question and I think the way you the way you 302 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:18,320 would have it as a as a transmitter, so it actually goes 303 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,320 back to the question Blatt asked is who owns this? 304 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:28,120 So take him into a context like if you have one company that has 305 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:32,000 a, an Uber transmitter that is going to be for all the 306 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,720 workforce, right? Their policy would be that 307 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:38,120 anything to do with provisioning, life cycle 308 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:40,720 management or even access management. 309 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:44,360 You could send that to an IGA platform where the platform 310 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:47,920 could start doing embedded already example workflows where 311 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:51,560 they act as an appliance. So we actually covered that too 312 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:53,640 in the panel, which is like, thank you. 313 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:58,760 Great, great, great setup right where this fabric of signals 314 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:00,760 that you ingest from all these things you have these things 315 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:04,200 popping off them as appliances like IGA platforms being one of 316 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:06,520 them Pam platforms being one of them ID PS being one of them. 317 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:11,280 The way you target events and event types is intrinsic to the 318 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:14,280 domain. So a lot of words great. 319 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:18,440 So breaking it down very easy if it's a provisioning events or a 320 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:22,760 life cycle events or even a data change events IGA. 321 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:31,840 So if my if my attributes change about me, maybe I send a skim 322 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:34,920 event to my IDP and my IGA platform. 323 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:39,800 However, if my IGA platform informs my IDP of the change, I 324 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:43,000 send it to one spot and it federates out to the other ones 325 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,440 federation. So it's very it's very dependent 326 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:52,760 upon the given integration. So it's a long answer to say it 327 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:56,280 depends. But like Cape Ones applications 328 00:15:56,320 --> 00:16:01,880 on 100% IGA ones, you could even like, let's be honest here, if 329 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:04,520 it's a hard enough event where you're prescriptive and you say 330 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:06,520 a session revolt because it's really bad. 331 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:12,080 Like if, if Jeff has access to like the world, not only do you 332 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:15,240 want to revoke his sessions, I want to remove all his access. 333 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:16,680 And you can do that in many ways. 334 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:18,520 But let's say you have an IGA platform and you're all in on 335 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:22,240 it. I send the same token to your 336 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:26,240 IDP to your IGA platform. Your IDP says I'll kill your 337 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:29,600 real time sessions and your IGA platform does admin things that 338 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:33,400 it says, oh all your roles you have all your gone that way. 339 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:37,960 You are essentially marked as an adversary, not in a bad way, but 340 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:41,120 someone's acting as you so they're impersonating you. 341 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:42,840 So you were considered an adversary at that point. 342 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:45,360 Great question. Great question. 343 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:48,680 Thank you. It seems like most of the 344 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:51,760 conversation I'm hearing is like the signals would come from 345 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:56,080 within your enterprise. But is there a thought that 346 00:16:56,320 --> 00:17:00,760 signals would come from maybe partners you federate with 347 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:04,280 signals come from big tank, Yes, OK. 348 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:07,280 So it's actually. I think this could actually be a 349 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,800 product that's out there, right where somebody's going to say 350 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:13,839 I'm going to create the biggest, baddest database of signals. 351 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:17,680 And just like you have a, you know, have I have I that owns 352 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:21,480 breach password list or any of these other data services, this 353 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:25,119 could end up being another. Product am I on notice? 354 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:26,200 Exactly, right. Exactly. 355 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:27,599 Yeah. Something like that could could 356 00:17:27,599 --> 00:17:28,480 take place. Absolutely. 357 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:30,240 Yeah, it's, it's a great question. 358 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:37,120 And the best way to phrase it is you're creating, you're 359 00:17:37,120 --> 00:17:38,960 ingesting a lot of data points, right? 360 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:42,360 So you have your internal because it's your data, but you 361 00:17:42,360 --> 00:17:45,400 can integrate with external systems that do endpoint 362 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:51,680 detection to be vendor agnostic. Those could be perfect, they 363 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:54,000 could be bad. But like the other guy was 364 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:56,240 saying, and they'll also one of the last questions in the panel, 365 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:58,080 it was do you trust them? How? 366 00:17:58,240 --> 00:17:58,920 How? How? 367 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:00,960 Efficient are they are they, are they legitimate? 368 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:04,760 So you should definitely get external sources of trust. 369 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:08,440 So like EDR platforms 100% should you go after social 370 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:10,680 providers in the workforce? Probably not. 371 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:15,080 But it is very much a mixture of internal and external because 372 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:17,600 not not only that, like, I mean, this is just public knowledge. 373 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:20,440 Like Octa has this in their platform right now. 374 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:23,120 They they support Kate, they support it both ways. 375 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:26,200 You can send to them, they send back to you. 376 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:30,120 Like that's, that's what everyone should aspire to be is 377 00:18:30,120 --> 00:18:32,080 you're both a transmitter and a receiver. 378 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:35,720 Because say it again, sharing is caring, right? 379 00:18:36,360 --> 00:18:38,960 How do you get around privacy concerns, that kind of thing? 380 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:41,040 That's that as it does a tough question. 381 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:44,480 And I and I think the way you have to do that is if you share 382 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:48,280 with your SAS providers, it's essentially your data. 383 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:49,800 So it's a little bit easier in the workforce. 384 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:52,080 Same thing goes for ER platforms. 385 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:54,120 But if I ever wanted to share with like an external company, 386 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:56,920 yeah, there's, there's standards out there for that. 387 00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:59,240 Like in like in an open ID, there's, there's a thing called, 388 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:02,720 is it AP pit, pairwise student anonymous identifier. 389 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:06,120 That's where it's just a mapping table that says this is, this 390 00:19:06,120 --> 00:19:08,800 is, this is Jim. Let's say your ID is 1 and 2, 391 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:12,120 but to them, you're gonna be 456789. 392 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:14,240 That way you only ever share that identifier. 393 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:17,680 That way if they see something anomalous about you, they send 394 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:21,640 over your 789789, which I know is 2. 395 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:23,600 That's the way you can do privacy sharing. 396 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:26,360 That's one example. There are plenty of use cases 397 00:19:26,360 --> 00:19:28,520 for those of you listening or watching that you'll be like, 398 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:30,160 yeah, but what about, of course, they're all there. 399 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:32,760 But in the lot of time that we have, that's an easy example to 400 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:36,680 say that's how you could interoperate and be privacy 401 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:40,320 aware because I'm really like like Mike is, I'm really big on 402 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:43,800 privacy, really big. It's outside of our panel. 403 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:46,680 What are those have you seen here that had a verse that has 404 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:50,000 been, you know, sort of in support of shared signals 405 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:54,280 framework shave. Are you seeing the love outside 406 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:57,600 of our little bubble of our panel or are there other things 407 00:19:57,600 --> 00:19:59,640 that are taking place? We're saying, OK, we help. 408 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:02,800 We still have some work to do to either educate or inform or. 409 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:05,840 But, you know, drive that adoption and get more vendors on 410 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:08,520 board. So the vendor adoption is always 411 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:10,440 there, like you should always tell your vendors, this is what 412 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:11,960 I want, this is what I want. And the only way they're going 413 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:13,520 to do it is by listening to you, right? 414 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,120 You the users, not you, Jess. Vendors get on board. 415 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:23,640 It was the the keynotes were pretty interesting. 416 00:20:24,360 --> 00:20:27,000 Andy had a good one. Laughter Andy was really good 417 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:30,200 too. And they, they're calling out 418 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:31,760 that continuous identity is needed. 419 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:36,480 And what even is more surprising now is the you need an event 420 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:40,000 driven architecture that that was like when I sat back in my 421 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,320 chair, filled my hands off my head and I had a possible legs 422 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:44,560 and I was like, OK, this is good. 423 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:46,880 This is good. When you when you see more than 424 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:50,200 one person say it who isn't in your direct circle of everyday 425 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:53,760 talk, it's both reassuring, ratifying and relieving. 426 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:57,160 It's very much relieving because when more people say it like 427 00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:59,240 it's when one person has an idea, it's an idea. 428 00:20:59,360 --> 00:21:02,520 Once you have it, it's a collective when 345, it expands 429 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:04,120 out, then it gets, it gets exponential. 430 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:07,240 That's called adoption, right? And I, I think it, it was very, 431 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:11,680 very evident that I still think continuous identity is 432 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:15,000 foundational to a lot of things like workload and AI and stuff. 433 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:19,120 But if you look at the pace AI is going and the pace that 434 00:21:19,120 --> 00:21:21,840 we're, we're, we're allowing automation to, to do our jobs, 435 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:26,320 the amount of data that needs to be correct is insane. 436 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:32,360 And I, I said this in my, in my talk, in my workshop, and I'm 437 00:21:32,360 --> 00:21:36,600 going to say it again tomorrow in my, in my session where AI is 438 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,520 not ready for our data because our data is not ready for AI. 439 00:21:40,360 --> 00:21:42,440 It's just not. What do you mean? 440 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,120 A lot of data that companies have are either stale, outdated, 441 00:21:47,120 --> 00:21:49,200 or they're 12 hours old or a day old. 442 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:52,360 AI doesn't wait for an hour or 12 days to make a decision. 443 00:21:52,360 --> 00:21:54,520 It's like, oh, look, I can go solve this problem over here 444 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:56,400 with this data set. That's it's as accurate, right? 445 00:21:57,160 --> 00:21:59,920 Go Then you're then some viewers are this is going to be like, 446 00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:01,240 well, there's hallucinations. I know that. 447 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:05,280 But if you're taking action on hallucinations, caveat emptor, 448 00:22:05,360 --> 00:22:06,680 right? Yep. 449 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:12,480 So you've mentioned about workload identities. 450 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:15,840 I remember when we bring he brought it up, I said non human 451 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:19,120 identities which raises your ire. 452 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:22,600 There you go. That's another good word we got 453 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,200 higher. Higher plethora brought to you 454 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,600 by the dictionary. Brought to you by the 455 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:30,480 Encyclopedia Britannica. There you go. 456 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:33,680 No one. Is it about that non human 457 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:36,200 identity terminology that you don't like? 458 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,240 It's too broad, that's all. The classification is too broad. 459 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,240 You can get you can get into into devices, you can get into 460 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:48,120 workload, you know, to machines. I, I like a classification 461 00:22:48,120 --> 00:22:49,640 that's that's much, much simplistic. 462 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:53,400 So Eric Wahlstrom and and Martin from company during coal, 463 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:55,280 they've coined the term workload. 464 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:57,480 I am and I haven't seen much pushback on it. 465 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:02,080 And I, I had the same thought, not talking to either of them a 466 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,120 year and a half ago. And it just like were I do my 467 00:23:05,120 --> 00:23:08,840 work, we call it that. And it's just NHI is just more 468 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:12,440 like it's a, it's a buzzword, but it's like, oh, NHIS, what 469 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:14,040 does that mean? Is it your phone? 470 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:15,320 Is it your device? Is your laptop? 471 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:17,400 Is it a Lambda? Is it a workload? 472 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:19,440 Yes, the answer is yes. Exactly. 473 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:21,880 So that's why I think everything could be a workload. 474 00:23:22,120 --> 00:23:24,640 You use your laptop to do something, which is a workload, 475 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:27,320 right. A machine does something which 476 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:30,400 is a workload, right. It's just the generalization 477 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,080 works. But NHI is like, I just, I 478 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:39,480 personally don't I like workload versus that cause Eric's a 479 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:43,200 pretty smart guy, Martin's a pretty smart guy and they, they 480 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:47,120 tend to get it right. And if two birds say something 481 00:23:47,120 --> 00:23:49,680 and I'm like, it makes sense, the same way tends to work out 482 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:51,720 that way that you have a triangle of like a triangle of 483 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:54,400 trust because we're not in that movie, but like circle of trust, 484 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:55,320 right? Could. 485 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:57,320 Join. Triangles of success exactly 486 00:23:57,320 --> 00:23:59,480 could join triangles of success. I just. 487 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,320 It makes worse sense honestly. It just does so I disagree. 488 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:06,160 Not in theory, in just the semantics of this. 489 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,000 And I feel like non human identity is fine. 490 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:11,400 It's not any, it's, it's not new. 491 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:13,480 I think that's the most important thing. 492 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,240 It's like, it's not like not human identity started last 493 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:18,880 week. Like it's years old we had. 494 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,720 Punch cards, you know, all these things have been operating 495 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:24,520 machines, identities. What I think of it is more is, 496 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:26,800 yeah, I think it's a little bit marking term and I think that's 497 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:30,840 probably OK because we need to help people understand because 498 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,800 they don't understand the word workload, a normal person, 499 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:35,280 right? And we are not normal. 500 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:36,520 People. So I'm asked you a question, 501 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:37,360 then you don't. You don't. 502 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:39,360 You don't agree. Love opinions. 503 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:41,640 What's a giraffe? What's a what? 504 00:24:42,120 --> 00:24:43,040 A giraffe. A giraffe. 505 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:45,560 It's an animal. Is that a non human identity? 506 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,800 Yes, we've already made a decision that a human is a 507 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:52,120 human, and if you're not a human, it's something else. 508 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:56,680 Now again, semantics. Could we say there's another 509 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,640 subclassification of exactly, you know, carbon based life 510 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:00,120 form? And I was. 511 00:25:00,120 --> 00:25:01,000 Waiting for you to go there, right? 512 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:02,560 Versus non carbon based life form. 513 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:04,760 It's NCBH. It's kind of a. 514 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:09,120 Potential term right now, and it's a hot 1 to the moment. 515 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,320 Yeah. I mean, think about ITDR. 516 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:13,560 It's like all of you predicted to talk about last year. 517 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:15,840 It's definitely toned down this year. 518 00:25:16,360 --> 00:25:17,720 Why is that? I'm not sure. 519 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:21,040 Maybe it's just that you have a tendency to say this is the hot 520 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:24,440 thing and get on it. By the way, I don't think 521 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:28,720 giraffe is an identity if what you're talking about is they put 522 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,760 a chip in under a skin and it's a. 523 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,200 That's a machine editing a device identity of some sort of. 524 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,600 Tracing chip, then every piece of inventory is an identity and 525 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:39,720 then it's like. Well, see we're getting into 526 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:45,360 semantics again of can a non human have an identity versus 527 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:47,040 not. And we've had this discussion 528 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:49,400 before about between the difference between an identity 529 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,840 versus an account and I don't know if we. 530 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:54,760 This is great to watch. This is great to watch. 531 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:55,320 I love it. Yeah. 532 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:57,840 Yeah. But I feel like in my defense 533 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:01,280 it's it's NHI, not human identities literally into things 534 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:03,160 so. Here's the one that I think is 535 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:08,160 about to like really become a hot topic is continuous 536 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:10,920 authentication. Because we're starting to talk 537 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:15,120 to organizations that are coming up with different form factors, 538 00:26:15,120 --> 00:26:20,360 seeing keep you authenticating rather than just logging in, you 539 00:26:20,360 --> 00:26:23,680 have to be wearing some kind of proximity device. 540 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:25,680 You're emanating. That authentication, you know 541 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:27,520 what that is? That's continuous identity. 542 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:29,560 That's Cape, Absolutely. Yeah. 543 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,680 So before Cake was Cape, it was continuous off indication, 544 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,160 sorry, since authentication. But then Cave came around to 545 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,880 where continuous authentication is too chatty. 546 00:26:38,360 --> 00:26:40,360 It's always check, always check, always check. 547 00:26:40,360 --> 00:26:46,400 Whereas even if you were a device for proximity, as long as 548 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,880 your device is on and emitting A emitting a signal, pun intended, 549 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:52,400 that's a way to check relevancy, right? 550 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:57,240 But continuous authentication, which I think you're right, Cape 551 00:26:57,360 --> 00:27:00,080 and continuous identity is going to be pivotal and foundational. 552 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:04,200 So what we want to do in to your NHI, to my workload, I am to AI, 553 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,440 but it is a hot topic and I, I, I think a lot of companies are 554 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,320 so struggling to get it right because they're, they're looking 555 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:12,120 at things like I got to get more factors. 556 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:14,160 I got to get this, I got to get stronger factors. 557 00:27:14,360 --> 00:27:18,000 You do crawl, walk, run, but in in the the walk and run phase, 558 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:21,560 you, you got to get your data. Your data is what matters. 559 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:24,280 Because if you don't understand your, your data population, what 560 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,840 they're doing, how they're using it, you're going to build that 561 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:30,680 policy and make probably make more investments in things that 562 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:32,640 may not accomplish what your business got, what your business 563 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,600 task is. I used the word may not, is or 564 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:37,400 are or will so. What? 565 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,200 Also creates a a brand new threat factor to protect 566 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:43,000 against. OK, We've put a lot of our data 567 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,640 into this thing. What are we doing to protect it? 568 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:47,280 Correct. It's going to be really 569 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:48,800 attractive for people to want to get. 570 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:50,160 We're going to protect it with AI. 571 00:27:50,360 --> 00:27:51,880 That was a joke. I solved it 100. 572 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:57,280 Percent more AI. So I've been, you know, thinking 573 00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:59,480 about this shared signal framework. 574 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:04,680 It feels like it fits within this concept of identity fabric. 575 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,440 It feels to me like you need to have your arms around the 576 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:17,040 identity of a, say, human, but also the device. 577 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:22,200 So when you talk about kind of like what is necessary from a 578 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:26,600 device identity or device management perspective, what is 579 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,000 it that? Where is kind of the baseline to 580 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:32,160 be to be successful with the shared signals framework? 581 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,280 Do you have to be somewhere in that journey or is it wherever 582 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:39,840 you are it can help you? Start small, pick the smallest 583 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:42,960 use case, the small, the smallest implementation with the 584 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:44,840 smallest blast radius and just try it out. 585 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:51,920 So I we actually in the workshop, we left our 586 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:57,240 participants with your homework is to go try this, whiteboard it 587 00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,480 out and start at the smallest scale. 588 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:06,640 Just try it one time, get it all together and do 1 revocation. 589 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:11,480 When you see it work one time, it is so intoxicating. 590 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,600 You're just like, wow, I want more of that 'cause I know, I 591 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:18,080 know when I see other, I see, I see others do it and it's you 592 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:22,040 just see like the the giddiness. They're like, oh, that can that 593 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:24,440 can happen. It's good, but you have to start 594 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:26,080 small. You have to you really do. 595 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,240 And from a from a device perspective, you don't need to 596 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,960 have like, oh, the INEMI number, the device Idi mean heck, your 597 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:34,600 laptop. I mean, if it, if it's your 598 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,840 laptop with an user agent and an ID and you, it's good enough. 599 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:40,760 I mean, the odds of you being able to do things with your 600 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:42,720 laptop, that's your personal one and not managed. 601 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,000 Slim to none. There are companies working on 602 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:52,920 that to support SSF, but it has to be a managed device or you 603 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:54,920 have to be logged into your browser of choice for them to 604 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:56,880 actually do that because they can't just be public like, oh, I 605 00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,480 know, just laptop or Vulcan. That doesn't work that way, not 606 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:01,800 yet. What is the smallest peripheral 607 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:03,760 concept you could do? Can I do this in a spreadsheet? 608 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:08,600 Is Access database still a thing or would you recommend like 609 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:11,920 something a little more modern? Graph database Neptune, 610 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:13,240 Something like that. Like do you mean? 611 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,280 How quickly could I establish this central source of data? 612 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:19,840 Because I know people. Out there like well. 613 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:21,680 We can use it in their spreadsheet. 614 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:25,520 Could that be a source? I it if it is, you have to be 615 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:27,680 able to action on the source, which means you have to have. 616 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:33,160 You could hook it up to Visual Basic and do some API calls. 617 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:35,880 Bubble gum and chicken wire and duct tape. 618 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,480 I mean that you you don't really need data to test this out. 619 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:43,400 There's a great open source 9 owned by any company website 620 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:49,400 called cave dot dev, CAEP dot dev DEV and I think I think 621 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:56,080 Kaiser has shared signals dot guide GUIDE in there. 622 00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,760 You can put in everything you need in a, in a fake target 623 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,240 system that you can see what, what would happen. 624 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:06,680 I mean, it, it, it sounds crazy, spin up a, a brand new tenant of 625 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:11,520 your choice fake and go try it out for efficacy. 626 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:14,440 And it is. It is super, super easy to do. 627 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,880 Super easy. So we're a vendor agnostic 628 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:21,560 podcast, so I'm not asking you to endorse anybody that you hear 629 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:25,320 you've walked the episode for. Did anybody jump out like whoa 630 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,960 that's cool solution? I mean you did specific area. 631 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:34,440 Oh. Like there's a whole NHI 632 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:38,120 Pavilion, is it Pam, is it IGA? Is it some sort of 633 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,840 authentication? Or you pull out a company name. 634 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:44,600 I mean, what time? I walked a floor and it's 635 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:50,120 there's a lot of AI and HI here the the soup du jour is I can 636 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:53,240 secure your MCP server with a proxy and a gateway and 637 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:55,440 authorize it. That is like everybody has that 638 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,720 now here it's like great, stop talking to me about that, right. 639 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:01,680 But from from what I've seen, what's what has stood out here 640 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:08,000 is there's not a lot of people Avengers wise that are looking 641 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,360 at the bigger picture of continuous and they're chasing 642 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,800 they're chase they're chasing AI and NHI, they're chasing it. 643 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:19,160 And what's gonna really be unfortunate is that year and a 644 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:21,720 half purchased these tools, these things that these things 645 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:25,040 to secure your platforms without the backing of the data. 646 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:30,120 It's it's not gonna work the way you want it to. 647 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:34,760 But that's your point though. What I have seen is there's, 648 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:42,520 there's a lot of focus on identity verification here. 649 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:45,800 I kinda like that now. Like there's some companies here 650 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:49,200 to remain agnostic, but identity verification is becoming a thing 651 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:51,280 now finally. That should have been a thing 652 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:53,360 three years ago. That probably was a thing three 653 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:54,480 years ago. But people are starting to 654 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,240 realize that this North Korea thing is a problem, right? 655 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,600 Not the country, just the, the whole you've all right, we've 656 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:04,240 all, we've all read the articles, but it's, it's that to 657 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,000 me set out there's, there's more than more than one vendor doing 658 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:08,040 that here now. And I'm like when? 659 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:10,320 That's a real interesting area because it started off really as 660 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:14,320 government kind of vendors and focus, right, of trying to 661 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:16,960 prevent fraud and how do you make sure the right services are 662 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:18,320 getting to the right people and things like that. 663 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:22,280 But then it was like, OK, finance usually is a leading 664 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,080 indicator of people adopting that. 665 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:25,640 And now it's starting to get further down. 666 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:27,840 I mean, you can see it now. It's like, OK, well, I'm calling 667 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,120 a help desk. How do I know that Sean calling 668 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:34,040 me and not AI Sean or someone tripped fishing me? 669 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:37,160 Because chances are, fishing is going to be the way you're going 670 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:38,920 to get breached because that's what's going to. 671 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:40,760 Happen statistically and with what Google. 672 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:44,680 Google's VO3 just released. Which is crazy scary. 673 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,320 Like if you had not played with that yet, Oh my, you just so 674 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:50,760 it's it's super. Cool and super terrifying. 675 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,000 And it just. And it's just that glimpse. 676 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,320 Is that what we say? This is the worst it will ever 677 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:56,920 be. It's gonna be better tomorrow. 678 00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:01,400 Better and better and better. All right, great, great 679 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:03,320 question. I mean, that's I saw identity 680 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:07,360 verification is like, wow, I'm like good 'cause that keeps me 681 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:09,840 up at night. I mean, I think it's going to be 682 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:11,040 helpful. I think what I think you have to 683 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,800 think about is the credential management self and then who do 684 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:15,600 you, where do you get them from and how do you make sure that 685 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,040 everyone has access to it. That's all stuff I think that 686 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:21,320 will eventually get figured out. But I think there is there is 687 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:24,120 that authenticity that needs to be established of OK, who am I 688 00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:28,600 talking to and. It's like do this good way 689 00:34:28,679 --> 00:34:29,760 right? Proving me you're you. 690 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:32,960 Blink if you're. Blink 3 times if you're you, but 691 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:34,639 then on one foot exactly right, yeah. 692 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,880 I feel like we could go on and on and on, but we do want to 693 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,600 wrap this up. Sean, it's always great having 694 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,080 you here on the show and I really enjoyed your panel. 695 00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:45,960 Thank you again for inviting me to be part of it. 696 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:47,320 I'm just trying. To keep up. 697 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,199 I'll say it out loud. You did a great job with it. 698 00:34:50,199 --> 00:34:54,600 I always look to you for like help and you always you take 699 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:55,840 thoughts very well and you're like I got you. 700 00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:59,680 So thank you so much Otto. Same thing loved it. 701 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,280 Mike and Andrew's like Jeff did a great job. 702 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:04,160 So I'm thank you so much. I appreciate. 703 00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:06,680 It I think it's like I said, I think moderating is the easiest 704 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:08,520 thing. I had a conversation with Grace 705 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:11,040 Kluke, who is a Diev org winner for us. 706 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:13,680 I caught her in the hallway and she did a panel and we we had a 707 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:18,080 little bit of a discussion of us is moderating harder or easier? 708 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:19,280 He says being on the pedal itself. 709 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:21,920 And I said, well, for me in moderating is easy because. 710 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:23,760 So I just. Turned the questions over to 711 00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:25,840 smart people and said OK, you guys answered these questions 712 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:29,160 and in our session today was awesome because literally 30 713 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:31,600 minutes of like straight audience questions like yeah, go 714 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:33,600 to this person over here, go to that person over there and. 715 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:36,080 You should ask also about this because he moderated the FC 716 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:39,480 panel and I it's like ask him what you thought about it was 717 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:41,240 harder to moderate or be on a panel because I think it's 718 00:35:41,240 --> 00:35:42,880 harder to moderate personally. Well, here we. 719 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:44,440 Go. That's our call to action, you 720 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:47,120 know, Put in the comments below whether you think moderating or 721 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:48,480 being on the panel is better or not. 722 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:52,000 So what I think is funny, though, is like, go to the 723 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:56,040 different panels of sessions and I'm like, that person has been 724 00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,760 on the podcast that everyone on the stage today in your panel 725 00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:02,160 has been on the podcast. No surprise, but it's. 726 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:07,200 Pretty cool, yeah, you're. Andrew Cameron, session with 727 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:08,320 you. I thought you guys were going to 728 00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:12,560 geek out on EVs. I was like, man, is this, I 729 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:14,320 think the center is, is it like EV now? 730 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:16,160 What is it? It was, it was, it was, it was a 731 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:16,880 great one. It was good. 732 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,040 It was good. Well, all right, let's get out 733 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:20,800 of here because I think we've got a bunch of stuff to do 734 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:22,400 tonight. It's kind of another long day of 735 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:24,480 Vegas, but I definitely appreciate you being on the show 736 00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:25,080 again for. Us, John. 737 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:26,480 Well, what's that for having me? Thank you very much. 738 00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:28,480 You guys are great. I'll have your show, your 739 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:30,040 LinkedIn in our show notes as well as 740 00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:35,520 kate.devcaep.devandthenyeahieacpodcast.com. Like subscribe that stuff. 741 00:36:35,720 --> 00:36:39,400 Again, thanks to RSM, thanks to Identiverse for helping us out 742 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,080 with getting us off the ground. And yeah, we'll talk with 743 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:46,680 everyone in the next one. You've been listening to 744 00:36:46,720 --> 00:36:50,600 Identity at the Center. We hope you've enjoyed the show. 745 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:54,920 Make sure to like, rate and review, and we'll be back soon. 746 00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:57,440 But in the meantime, hit the website at 747 00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:03,800 identity@thecenter.com. See you next time on Identity at 748 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:04,720 the Center.