1 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:10,960 This is identity at the center. Welcome to the Identity at the 2 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:12,440 Center podcast. I'm Jeff, and that's Jim. 3 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:13,800 Hey, Jim. Hey, Jeff, how are you? 4 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:15,880 Oh, not so bad yourself. Still fantastic. 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:20,160 Remember here at the Gardner I am Summit 2025, the last 6 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:21,680 conference of the year for me. How about you? 7 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:23,680 Yeah, me too. My last trip of the year. 8 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:29,200 I think I'll have 98, maybe 99 flights by the time I'm done 9 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:30,240 with this week. You. 10 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:33,440 Bear me at the most the least status of the. 11 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:37,360 Airline, well, I'll tell you, Diamond status with Delta does 12 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:40,840 not absolve you of poor visibility at the Atlanta 13 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:43,960 airport yesterday. So this is Sunday before Gartner 14 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:47,240 kind of officially kicks off today, and that cost me 6 hours 15 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:51,760 of delays getting from Asheville to Dallas area. 16 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:53,880 Yeah. And yeah. 17 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:57,000 That's a bad time of like flying this time of year. 18 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:00,520 But what's really great, like we're here now. 19 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:04,760 I want to thank a couple organizations, one's Gardner for 20 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:06,920 setting us up as this awesome room. 21 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:11,000 I wanted to thank RSM for getting us out here and kind of 22 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:15,080 always supporting the podcast. And by the way, I think a lot of 23 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:18,120 people don't realize that's our day job is that we do consulting 24 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:20,680 during the day. The podcast is not a full time 25 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:23,960 job for us. So thank you to RSM and then 26 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:26,360 thank you to you too, Jeff. I mean, I know you're not an 27 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:28,600 organization unto yourself. I am. 28 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:32,440 Oh, sometimes I wonder if you think you are, but no. 29 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:37,520 Could you keep taking our technology game to a new level? 30 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:40,640 I think when people see this podcast, all the cameras we 31 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:43,920 have, the new wide angle, I mean, it's impressive. 32 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:46,440 Yeah, we'll see how it goes. I just realized that I have a 33 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:49,560 new camera over there and I'll be looking away from it for the 34 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:51,320 most part. So, you know, we'll, we'll 35 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:53,760 figure it out. But yeah, you don't want to look 36 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:56,120 good and sound good. So I'm trying. 37 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:58,800 I'm trying for you. Yeah, I think, I think 38 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:01,600 everyone's grateful. But yeah, we're going to 39 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:05,840 knockout 3 episodes while we're here, and I think we can 40 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:09,039 probably get jumped into the first one here. 41 00:02:09,199 --> 00:02:12,120 Yeah, why don't we go ahead and and introduce our guest, Sarah 42 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:13,960 Clark. She's been with us before. 43 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:15,720 She's joining us. She's with Hope now. 44 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:17,760 I had to answer. Ask her how to pronounce that. 45 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:20,160 Just make sure you get it right. But welcome back to the show, 46 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:21,640 Sarah, because you're a second time here. 47 00:02:21,920 --> 00:02:24,880 Yeah, no, it's a pleasure to be here and there are a lot of 48 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:28,240 cameras here, so feeling a little nervous, but. 49 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:32,480 It's just the conversation about identity amongst old friends, 50 00:02:32,640 --> 00:02:34,280 that's it. Exactly. 51 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:36,600 So you were with us a couple years ago at the Authenticate 52 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:39,960 conference in 2022. That was episode 179. 53 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:42,000 So I'm not going to make you go back and like give us your I am 54 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:44,560 origin, origin story because we've already covered that. 55 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:47,120 Go back and check that out. But tell us a little bit about, 56 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:49,200 so it's been 3 years, I guess at this point. 57 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:51,280 What have you been up to since then? 58 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:53,960 And tell me a little bit more about Hope, because it's a name 59 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:55,800 I've heard before, but I'm not sure if we're familiar about it, 60 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:57,160 especially here in the US. Yeah. 61 00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:02,200 So in 2022, when I was last on the show, I was leading 62 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:06,040 something called the ID. The ID network at MasterCard all 63 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:10,400 about ensuring that digital ID credentials can be shared 64 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:14,840 globally seamlessly with assurance and all the good 65 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:18,560 stuff. So that was amazing. 66 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:23,920 However, MasterCard decided to no longer pursue building a new 67 00:03:23,920 --> 00:03:27,840 network. So I ended up leaving in 2024. 68 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:31,240 And you know, of course, that decision was a bit 69 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:33,720 disappointing. You know, very, I was very 70 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:36,360 enthusiastic about the business, as was the team. 71 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:40,120 So I decided to take a little bit of time off to decompress 72 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:43,880 and figure out my next steps. Well, little time off turned 73 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:49,720 into a year off and I spent the year buying rainforest in Costa 74 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:52,760 Rica for the sole purpose of preservation. 75 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:57,000 So that of course, took quite a bit longer than I anticipated, 76 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:01,320 and I got pretty deep in that. And I ended up becoming very 77 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:06,480 passionate about saving dogs from the shelters in Southern 78 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:09,200 California. And I'd just like to say, please 79 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:13,200 adopt, don't shop. So did that for a while, tried 80 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:18,040 to help the situation by developing an AI agent and sort 81 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:22,079 of a long story, but I got sidetracked with some passion 82 00:04:22,079 --> 00:04:24,800 projects, Really enjoyed the time. 83 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:30,520 After a year I decided I'm ready to jump back in and Hope A 84 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:35,520 actually found me. And the vision of Hope A is very 85 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:38,280 similar to what we were seeking to do at MasterCard. 86 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:43,560 So Hope A is building the digital identity infrastructure 87 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:47,960 of the future. And at a high level, there's two 88 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:51,560 main parts to that. The first is something called 89 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:55,480 Hope A Connect. And Hope a Connect is all about 90 00:04:55,720 --> 00:05:01,280 connecting the world's government issued digital IDs to 91 00:05:01,280 --> 00:05:04,240 be used seamlessly by the private sector. 92 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:09,120 So we enable identity verification companies, 93 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:14,680 authentication platforms as well as enterprises to access 94 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:18,920 government issued digital IDs as well as government issued 95 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:22,320 credentials. So all about making that 96 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:26,600 seamless, easy providing the network, providing the one line 97 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:30,160 of code type approach to get to all of those. 98 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:35,240 The second part of our focus is enablement of issuance. 99 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:42,760 So working with governments that are launching digital IDs so 100 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:45,960 that they can have the wallet and the infrastructure to be 101 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:49,320 able to issue those to their citizens, as well as private 102 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:53,880 enterprises that can benefit from having a wallet to issue 103 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:56,400 their own credentials. Because maybe they're solving 104 00:05:56,400 --> 00:06:00,200 for data silos, maybe they're solving for having subsidiaries 105 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:03,320 and user journeys that span multiple things. 106 00:06:03,840 --> 00:06:10,960 So Hope a connect the global Eid hub and the Hope a wallet all 107 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:14,680 about enabling issuance. So that's what we're up to. 108 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:19,280 I joined as Chief Product Officer and GM of North America, 109 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:24,000 and I'm just super excited to be continuing my work on that 110 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,600 vision because I really do believe it is the unlocking 111 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:33,080 mechanism to a more secure future with a lot less fraud. 112 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:36,200 That's really cool. And I'm really interested to 113 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:42,080 understand what the governments are doing with the digital 114 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:46,280 identity, digital credentials. I'm just wondering what is the 115 00:06:46,280 --> 00:06:49,440 problem that governments are trying to solve with those 116 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:51,680 identities, the digital identities? 117 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:56,200 Yeah. So at this point there are, 118 00:06:56,200 --> 00:07:02,160 let's see, I have a little CHEAT SHEET, 186 out of 198 countries 119 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:06,600 are moving forward with government issued digital IDs 120 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:11,000 and I'm going to shorthand that to Eids because that's a lot to 121 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:15,000 keep saying. So 186 governments moving 122 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:20,640 forward with Eid programs. So that is 94% of all countries 123 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:23,800 on Earth, which I think is just absolutely amazing. 124 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:28,080 Some of them are released, some of them are in progress. 125 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:31,440 So they're all at different stages, but huge adoption. 126 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:37,280 So before COVID, you know, this was definitely becoming a hot 127 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:41,920 topic. There was awareness that having 128 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:46,720 a sound digital ID infrastructure could help uplift 129 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:53,520 economic metrics for a country. Lifted GDP, allow for easier 130 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:59,200 access to financial services, allow for inclusion, that type 131 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:02,720 of thing. COVID hit, and of course, many 132 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:06,040 governments were slammed with the same problem, right? 133 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:12,040 Lockdown and standing in line to access government services did 134 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:14,960 not mix. They were the, you know, polar 135 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:18,840 opposites of each other. So a lot of acceleration 136 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:23,440 happened to solve for access to government services through 137 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:26,000 digital channels. And, you know, we certainly saw 138 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:30,440 that here in the US with, you know, inability to get 139 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:33,600 unemployment benefits because of that friction. 140 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:36,360 And that happened everywhere. So there was a lot of 141 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:40,799 acceleration driven by the problems with government 142 00:08:40,799 --> 00:08:44,440 services during COVID. And at that time there was a bit 143 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:47,720 of debate, you know, would governments open these Eids to 144 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:49,760 the private sector? How would they do it? 145 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:54,040 I would say now that debate is over and in general all 146 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:57,640 governments see the benefit of enabling the private sector with 147 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:01,800 government issued Eids. So why is this valuable to the 148 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:06,520 private sector? It is an unlocking mechanism to 149 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:10,720 solving for just absolutely egregious fraud levels that 150 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:13,760 we're seeing right now. So if you think about any 151 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:18,800 private sector company that's regulated, they have to do KYC, 152 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:22,920 financial services, gambling, you know, other regulated 153 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:26,160 sectors. Beyond that you have, you know, 154 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:31,240 sharing economy marketplaces that may not be regulated like 155 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:35,840 payments and financial services, but they also need trust, which 156 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:38,840 means they need identity verification. 157 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:43,080 The current state of identity verification generally is you 158 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:46,520 capture a photo of a physical ID document. 159 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:51,320 You pair that, you know, with a selfie and that's sort of the 160 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:56,440 process that people go through the physical ID document photo 161 00:09:56,440 --> 00:10:00,560 is analyzed by algorithms that try to figure out if it looks 162 00:10:01,560 --> 00:10:04,760 authentic. And, you know, that's 163 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:09,120 probabilistic. In the end, AI, as everybody 164 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:14,240 knows, has accelerated and it's very easy to create, you know, a 165 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:19,000 very good fake ID document. So basically that method has 166 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:25,240 been, you know, breached. It's vulnerable to AI, so that's 167 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:29,440 just no longer reliable anymore. Deep fakes, you know, all the 168 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:30,920 different things that are happening. 169 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:37,720 Juniper Research recently did a study or or a research report 170 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:43,600 where they predict that fraud just within financial services 171 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:48,720 identity fraud is going to surge to 59 billion in the next few 172 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:51,560 years. Like this is a huge problem and 173 00:10:51,560 --> 00:10:56,120 the existing method of capturing physical documents, even 174 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:59,800 layering that with risk signals, it's no longer good enough. 175 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:02,160 So I've been talking about this for years. 176 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:07,040 The reality is finally coming. The private sector to reduce 177 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:11,120 this fraud needs to connect the root of trust, which are the 178 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:16,000 government issued digital ID's. And that's the horizon that 179 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:18,320 we're entering. So that's great for fraud. 180 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:20,880 It's also great for user experience. 181 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:22,760 Yeah. And just so you mentioned I 182 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:25,160 think a few different benefits, right? 183 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:28,320 There's the fraud reduction part, which you hit pretty heavy 184 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:31,400 there at the end. But you also talked about 185 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:37,360 security, efficiency, inclusion. And I'm wondering like from a 186 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:40,200 government standpoint, and maybe there's not just one answer, but 187 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:44,480 what, what's the main driver, what is like top of the list 188 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:45,840 that they're trying to drive forward? 189 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:55,160 I would say that a foundational digital ID drives economic 190 00:11:55,320 --> 00:12:00,040 activity, right? It drives inclusion, it drives 191 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:04,520 safety, it drives less fraud outcomes. 192 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:06,880 I mean, I guess there isn't just one answer, right? 193 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:10,280 There's sort of a holistic benefit to society. 194 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,880 And I think that can differ depending on a developed economy 195 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:18,240 versus a developing economy. You know, we can get into what 196 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:22,960 the EU is doing, but one of their driving motivations is 197 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:26,960 also all around data privacy for their citizens. 198 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:29,160 So I'm happy to kind of dive more into that. 199 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:33,160 But I think part of it is, you know, regional, but the top line 200 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:40,800 benefit is sound digital identity drives safe, you know, 201 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:45,200 enhanced economic activity overall, which benefits 202 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:50,880 everyone. I had major jealousy or, you 203 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:54,480 know, wishing I had one. There were some folks going 204 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:58,480 through airport security and using mobile driver's licenses, 205 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:02,480 and it just seemed like it's a better user experience for the 206 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:06,440 person who has it. It's probably better security as 207 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:08,360 well, right? Oh, yeah, yeah. 208 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:12,640 I mean, again, there are different ways that different 209 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:15,200 governments are proceeding with their platforms. 210 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:18,240 There's kind of a few different models, and we can get more into 211 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:21,960 that. But overall, the themes are, you 212 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:27,080 know, cryptographically secured, you know, kind of tokenized 213 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:31,640 identity protected by biometrics. 214 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:36,280 Some of them are wallet based, some of them are centralized. 215 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:40,120 But any way you look at it, it's just more secure. 216 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:44,080 You know, one of the things I figured with the those digital 217 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:47,040 driver's licenses is not going to work for everybody. 218 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:49,840 Like who's used the example of my dad, right? 219 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:53,400 Like my dad's not going to do that. 220 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:57,440 It's not for him. And so they're still going to be 221 00:13:57,440 --> 00:13:59,920 the the plastic driver's license right there. 222 00:13:59,920 --> 00:14:04,400 Yeah. So the digital I did or what we 223 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:07,680 call them Eids, that's not going to be an overnight light switch, 224 00:14:07,680 --> 00:14:09,000 right. They're still going to have to 225 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:12,000 be the physical world version for people. 226 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:17,480 So I'm wondering like, what is that adoption curve typically 227 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:18,000 like? Well. 228 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:24,040 Again, I think that is varying from country to country. 229 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:28,760 So, you know, maybe I can start with some countries that have 230 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:36,240 seen tremendous adoption and adoption is fueled by acceptance 231 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:39,920 or where you can use it, right. So you're talking about mobile 232 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:44,080 driver's licenses as an example. You've observed through airports 233 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:48,320 in the US. That's pretty much one of the 234 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:51,480 only use cases that's available at this point in time. 235 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:54,680 So some people that have heard of it are going to use it, but 236 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:58,320 it's not super compelling because where else can you use 237 00:14:58,320 --> 00:14:59,760 it? You know, am I going to bother 238 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:05,760 or just big enough to check out my license versus my phone? 239 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:11,520 So the adoption curve here is, you know, starting off a little 240 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:15,400 like not, you know, shooting up into the right quite yet. 241 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:18,400 I think that's going to change and we can talk more about that. 242 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:24,560 Other parts of the world, there's been more enablement and 243 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:28,160 more ways that it's accepted throughout the country. 244 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:34,040 So some places that have huge adoption right now would include 245 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:37,520 the Philippines. So they recently announced that 246 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:45,640 80% of their population of 117 million have their national 247 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:49,200 digital ID and are using it for different things within their 248 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:52,560 country. I think most people are familiar 249 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:57,120 with India having Adahar as their digital ID platform. 250 00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:00,960 So they've effectively on boarded, you know, all of the 251 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:04,720 adults and their population of 1.4 billion. 252 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:08,480 So a staggering number. And they've measured metrics 253 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:12,400 that show benefits in terms of financial inclusion and other 254 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:15,480 things. They're continuing to modernize 255 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:22,160 or evolve, maybe I should say, to make their ID available as a 256 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:25,880 wallet. Now on someone's phone, they 257 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:27,600 have something called a Digi locker. 258 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:31,560 So it's not just about your foundational digital ID 259 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:35,000 credential. It's also about other things the 260 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:39,120 government issues to you that can be important for enhanced 261 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:41,880 user journeys. So imagine signing up for a loan 262 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:45,200 and you can have, you know, proof of the various things that 263 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:47,960 you need that go beyond your foundational ID. 264 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:52,560 That's all there for their citizens and obviously widely 265 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:56,840 adopted because it's used for a lot of things right now in 266 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:01,000 India. We have Brazil, I think is a 267 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:06,200 really interesting case where 50% of the population has a 268 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:08,240 driver's license. So they don't have quite as many 269 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:12,200 drivers as a percentage of the US, But those are all in a 270 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:15,160 digital form. And they just announced a very 271 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:20,720 sweeping program to create a centralized multimodal digital 272 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:25,200 ID where they plan to have 100% effectively of their population 273 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:28,520 onboarded across the next five years. 274 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:32,200 So these are examples of governments that are really 275 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:36,240 solving for both adoption and enablement of use cases within 276 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:38,480 their country, and that's why they're getting high adoption 277 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:39,280 rates. I. 278 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:42,600 Think it's like, you know, I think a lot of the technology we 279 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:48,160 have Silicon Valley in the US and our adoption is relatively 280 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:49,880 poor compared to these countries. 281 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:54,200 So just an observation that I think is worth noting. 282 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:59,800 Out of curiosity, like adoption rates, I would think that age is 283 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:02,920 a major factor in demographics. Especially you mentioned 284 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:07,000 financial ability because you do need a smartphone for this to 285 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:11,920 work, right? Well, it depends on the model. 286 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:19,800 So yes, if the approach is to enable with a wallet type 287 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:24,360 container for a verifiable credential that would be used 288 00:18:24,360 --> 00:18:28,800 from a smartphone, But some of these countries that have less 289 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:33,920 penetration of smartphones are using approaches that you know, 290 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:36,520 may not be as dependent, you know, on a phone. 291 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:40,120 So it kind of depends on if it's a centralized model versus a 292 00:18:40,120 --> 00:18:43,080 decentralized model. So there are different factors 293 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:50,080 and if you look at the more decentralized or smartphone type 294 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:54,800 models, I would point to, you know, the US and the EU 295 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:57,240 especially as an example of that. 296 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:01,440 And you know, I talked about a bunch of other countries, but 297 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:05,400 the EU was really kind of the shining star, at least in my 298 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:09,560 view, that sort of leading the charge to the most kind of well 299 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:16,200 formed program with the most regulatory kind of teeth, right? 300 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:20,840 That's, you know, I'm a person that cares deeply about 301 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:25,320 transforming the Internet to be privacy preserving. 302 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:30,280 So their approach is very in line with those ideals. 303 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:33,920 So I'm really excited about what the EU is doing. 304 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:36,840 And when you talk about adoption, I think we're going to 305 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,200 see adoption very, very quickly in the EU. 306 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:44,160 In fact, they're predicting that 80% of their citizens will be, 307 00:19:44,360 --> 00:19:49,520 will not only have a digital ID or an Eid wallet, they will be, 308 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:53,240 you know, using it within the next several years. 309 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:57,480 So they're expecting a very steep adoption curve, but they 310 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:02,560 also have a lot of, you know. Support right from the 311 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:05,880 government where it will be mandated in some ways. 312 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:08,320 So maybe we can talk a bit more about the EU. 313 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:11,240 Yeah, I want to because I think Jim still a little bit Thunder. 314 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:15,880 I feel like the US is behind right now and I based that on 315 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:18,080 conversation that we actually did an episode with Christina 316 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:21,640 Souza and Dr. Torsten from German Spring Group is kind of 317 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:26,040 responsible for the E for the digital wallet for Germany. 318 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:28,720 One of the things that I learned from that conversation when we 319 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:32,680 were at EIC earlier this year was there is financial implement 320 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:35,960 implications for each of the member states of the EU if they 321 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:38,600 do not have this interoperability set up. 322 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:41,800 I think it's by the end of 2026. Don't quote me on that, but it's 323 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:46,160 relatively soon coming up. I feel like that's a great 324 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:50,480 incentive for countries, governments to say, OK, we're 325 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:52,520 going to have this thing put together and there is a 326 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:57,280 financial implement implication. If not, yeah, I don't know how 327 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:00,200 well that would work in the US. We're 50 states. 328 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:03,120 Mobile driver's license is probably, I don't know, like I'm 329 00:21:03,120 --> 00:21:05,440 pessimistic. And I feel like we're 1520 years 330 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:09,360 out because it's going to take that much time for each state to 331 00:21:09,360 --> 00:21:11,920 adopt it to figure out how we want to do their 332 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:14,120 interoperability, blah, blah, blah, and stuff like that. 333 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:18,480 And so I have this sort of jaded opinion that, oh, man, the US is 334 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:24,440 behind when it comes to this idea of a decentralized digital 335 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:28,360 identity wallet of some sort. Am I being too pessimistic? 336 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:31,680 Is there hope coming, you know, for us in the US? 337 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:34,840 Or are we going to continue to kind of, you know, not lead in 338 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:37,480 this space? You know, EU is probably the 339 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:40,160 leader right now. Do we catch up at some point? 340 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:45,120 So I think the US will catch up and fun fact, we already do have 341 00:21:45,120 --> 00:21:50,760 20 states that are issuing MDLS. We also have the three major 342 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:53,320 wallets. I think probably a lot of people 343 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:57,840 have seen that news where Apple, Google and Samsung all support 344 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,920 uploading and MDL into the wallet. 345 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:05,600 And these aren't, you know, 1 to one, right? 346 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:10,040 So 20 states have MDLS, Not all states support all wallets. 347 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:13,880 So there's sort of this patchwork, right, that is 348 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,360 happening with that. But that's all starting to come 349 00:22:16,360 --> 00:22:20,240 together in addition to having the state app for your MDL. 350 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:24,840 So the fact the wallets are supporting the upload means the 351 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:28,480 next step is the wallets will plug into the private sector and 352 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:32,280 there will be more use cases. So with more use cases comes 353 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:36,160 more adoption. And 20 states have them. 354 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,920 I don't know the exact number that are in progress or are 355 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:44,120 scheduled, but there's a bunch. So I think all the states are 356 00:22:44,120 --> 00:22:48,880 seeing that they need to do something that is digital. 357 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:54,080 For the most part, they're supporting A consistent set of 358 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:59,160 standards, which is basically the M doc standard for MDLS. 359 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,640 But then again, nothing is completely consistent. 360 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:07,440 So the problem exists, you know, kind of when you zoom out, you 361 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:12,360 know, the US is a microcosm of a bigger fragmentation issue 362 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,760 globally. So for the private sector to 363 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:20,200 plug into MD LS, it might seem OK, Apple Wallet supporting it, 364 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:24,240 I'll plug into that. Wait, some states don't do Apple 365 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:25,840 Wallet. What about Google? 366 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:27,960 What about Samsung? What about direct? 367 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,720 So there's always going to be an issue with fragmentation that's 368 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,320 going to slow down kind of the ultimate adoption. 369 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:37,440 But I think you are being a little pessimistic because there 370 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:39,440 is a lot happening in the US I'm. 371 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:42,760 I'm fine with that, not. Nearly as much as what's 372 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:46,520 happening in the EU. So we have 50 states. 373 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:53,560 The EU has 27 member states, so half, but still a bunch, right? 374 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:59,960 450 million citizens, so about the same population wise. 375 00:23:59,960 --> 00:24:07,400 And like you said, they do have, you know, a sweeping regulation 376 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,600 that's coming into effect and that's EI desk too. 377 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:19,160 So by the end of 2026, each member state must make available 378 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:24,200 at least one ID wallet to their citizens. 379 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:33,120 And by the end of 2027, it is mandated that regulated entities 380 00:24:33,120 --> 00:24:38,800 as well as Vlops, which is very large online platforms. 381 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:43,080 Vlops, I guess. Yeah, yeah. 382 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:47,800 Are you a VLOP? You must plug in, but they must 383 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:56,320 support the EU digital identity wallet for identity verification 384 00:24:56,400 --> 00:25:01,080 as well as customer authentication flows. 385 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:04,680 And I believe it says as the first choice. 386 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:10,880 So 2026, every citizen needs to have access to a wallet, at 387 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:16,200 least one in each member state. So the word at least means some 388 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,080 member states are going to have more than one. 389 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:21,000 So there's going to be a bunch of choices out there and then 390 00:25:21,360 --> 00:25:26,400 every regulated entity and BLOP need to plug in, make it 391 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:30,160 available for identity verification, authentication as 392 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,600 the first choice by the end of 2027. 393 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:37,640 So if you're an IDV company, if you're a regulated entity, if 394 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:42,600 you're a VLAP, the time to start looking into this is now because 395 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,000 this is mandated by their regulations. 396 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,920 So they are pushing acceptance along with the issuance side. 397 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,440 And it's just amazing because these are digital identity 398 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:55,320 wallets. They're privacy preserving. 399 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:58,480 The individual gives consent to data sharing. 400 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:02,120 There's so many elements in here that is just like a good model. 401 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:05,760 And I talked about Brazil, I talked about a couple different 402 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:08,560 places. I know South Korea is has done a 403 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:10,400 lot of work with digital identity. 404 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,840 A lot of countries, they're looking at this as the template 405 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:19,400 for how they should evolve or introduce their systems to their 406 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:21,960 citizens, and I think that's tremendously good news. 407 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:27,880 I can't imagine there's a balance of, you know, citizen 408 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:32,960 demand and government required use cases. 409 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:37,440 I think of that identity verification process and with 410 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:42,520 the Eid is really enabling those processes to be more efficient 411 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,560 and better. And that seems to be the 412 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:49,680 transition where it's actually a government service that 413 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:56,280 enterprises can leverage these technological improvements. 414 00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:00,400 Am I zeroing in? Is that kind of that linkage? 415 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,400 I'm not sure I completely understood your point. 416 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:08,400 Yeah, so my point was. In my world. 417 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:11,680 No, no, no, you, you kind of talked about the identity 418 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:14,800 verification piece in the beginning and it's like, yes, 419 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,760 those are the mechanics, but it seems to me the verifiable 420 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:23,600 credentials and this transition to EIDS kind of greases the 421 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:27,360 tracks for that. For the identity verification. 422 00:27:27,360 --> 00:27:30,120 Yeah. Yeah. 423 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:36,200 I mean, so the EIDS and the verifiable credentials transform 424 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:41,240 the consumer, the individual's experience from, you know, a 425 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:45,920 hassle to one click. So I don't know if your average 426 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:50,600 person has intrinsic demand for this, right. 427 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,560 Like a lot of people aren't walking around saying I wish I 428 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,640 had an identity wallet. However, the average person 429 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,840 knows that signing up for things can be a pain. 430 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:04,280 They know that they don't enjoy password resets and text 431 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:06,720 messages and you know all this stuff. 432 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:08,880 And they know that fraud is rising. 433 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:14,160 So they want solutions to that. Those are their kind of jobs to 434 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,240 be done right, to use product lingo. 435 00:28:17,120 --> 00:28:21,120 So this is, and people want data privacy too. 436 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,320 You know, I, I don't think your average person understands that 437 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:28,040 centralized databases collecting their data getting breached lead 438 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:30,080 to identity fraud. I mean, this is stuff that we 439 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,680 understanding in the industry, but you know, people want to 440 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:36,960 access things easier and to feel safe. 441 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:40,240 But I think we've gotten jaded. You know, there's a breach every 442 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:42,600 day, every week. It's like OK. 443 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:44,120 I ignore. What did I do about it? 444 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:44,880 Nothing. Not just this. 445 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:48,680 At this point, yeah, you know. So that idea of like, well, it's 446 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:50,440 centralized, it's already centralized. 447 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,800 So how? How are we supposed to fix that? 448 00:28:55,000 --> 00:29:01,080 Well, that's what the, you know, some of the regulation and data 449 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,840 privacy, you know, regulations that are also in effect, like 450 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:09,680 these things are certainly being pursued by the European Union 451 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,200 and fixing, it's not going to be overnight, right? 452 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:16,880 But this is the whole kind of philosophy right behind Web 3 453 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:20,800 and decentralized approaches. I mean, just even beyond the 454 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:25,640 identity fraud, we are all giving our data to centralized 455 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:30,880 places to then monetize our data instead of we benefit and 456 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:33,520 monetize our own data. So if you think more broadly 457 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:37,640 just about all of that, you know, that's flipping, you know 458 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:41,800 the script. So this is a microcosm of that. 459 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:46,920 So you share only the data that is needed to be shared. 460 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:51,320 And, you know, there is liability and risk for 461 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:56,880 organizations to be storing too much personal data, especially 462 00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:01,840 as the regulators catch up and there begin to be penalties for, 463 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:06,480 you know, breaches and other, you know, liability, right, for 464 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:09,480 allowing data to be misused or breached. 465 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:13,320 So there's a lot of work to be done, right, to completely solve 466 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:17,240 what you're talking about. However, this is a significant 467 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:21,880 step in the right direction. So that's all coming. 468 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:25,480 That's going to be in place. It's going to be mandated by the 469 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:29,240 end of 2027. However, you know, it sounds 470 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:33,560 great on the surface, right? Private sector is going to 471 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:37,360 benefit by also having less fraud and offering better user 472 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:41,320 experiences. However, there are 27 member 473 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,800 states. Even though the, you know, 474 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:49,440 overall framework is consistent, there still are different 475 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:54,000 standards, different states. Each state has their own trust 476 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:57,320 registry. Working with each government to 477 00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:02,880 gain access like these are all challenges where even though the 478 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:09,320 EU is unified, it's still challenging for a single entity 479 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,680 to plug into the wallets of all member states. 480 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:18,800 Even just the effort of testing with, you know, at least 27, 481 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,840 possibly double the number of wallets depending on how that 482 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:25,240 all emerges with the different protocols. 483 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:32,440 There's Open ID Connect, there's Open ID for VC, there's the ISO 484 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:36,720 standards, like there's just different things to consider 485 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:38,800 from a technology protocol level. 486 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,400 There's the trust management, there's the key management, 487 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:47,240 there's keeping up with, you know, any of the regulatory, you 488 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,800 know, things that need to be kept up with with respect to 489 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:55,040 integrating to each ID wallet. So the EU has also defined 490 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:57,040 what's called an intermediary role. 491 00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:03,040 So this is basically the network or the hub that takes the 492 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:06,840 responsibility for sorting through all of that and creating 493 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:11,960 the integration to the 27 member States and then allowing the 494 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:16,120 private sector to connect to make it easy to have it 495 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:18,720 normalized to take all that complexity out. 496 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:25,320 So the intermediary is also a certified role in the EI desk to 497 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,640 framework. And that's also a really big 498 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:33,960 unlocking mechanism that the EU has put into place and made an 499 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:38,360 explicit role that requires, you know, certain certifications 500 00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:41,440 and, again, data privacy being front and center. 501 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:44,600 So where do we go from here? Because it doesn't sound like 502 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:48,680 this is a technology issue. We have standards, we have 503 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:50,400 different components for interoperability. 504 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,080 So I'm curious like where's, where's this going next? 505 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:55,760 Are there any specific trends or things that you've kind of 506 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,240 identified? And then my follow up to that 507 00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:00,400 is, OK, so there's probably some trends you're going to tell us 508 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,560 about. Is there a specific area that is 509 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,400 quicker like historically? And what I'm thinking is like 510 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:10,160 finance, you talk about fraud, nobody wants to lose money. 511 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,240 Finance might be a leader in this, but are there is, is that 512 00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,320 right or are there other other industries or verticals that you 513 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:18,360 think are adopting, you know this idea faster? 514 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,880 Well, I think age verification is something we haven't really 515 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:28,200 touched on and that's, you know, a subset, I would say of digital 516 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,840 identity. So we certainly see a lot of 517 00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:38,280 legislation globally around age verification, particularly with 518 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:42,360 protecting restricted, protecting minors from 519 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:46,800 restricted content. So we see that in Australia, we 520 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,720 see that in the UK, we see that in certain states in the US. 521 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:51,800 So again, a bit of a fragmented landscape. 522 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:56,360 You know, however, there's a lot of interest in privacy 523 00:33:56,360 --> 00:34:00,160 preserving techniques, making it simple because it's something 524 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,560 that has a high frequency of use and that's, you know, usually a 525 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:06,840 really important determining factor for kind of taking all 526 00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:08,560 the friction out of a user experience. 527 00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:13,040 So that has been a driver in certain areas that's creating 528 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:18,159 another, you know, path to adoption and awareness and 529 00:34:18,159 --> 00:34:21,040 causing private enterprises to plug in these types of 530 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:25,400 capabilities. Financial services, as you say. 531 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:31,280 As you say, I would say that kind of global fintech firms 532 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:35,360 tend to be on the leading edge. Something that I'm personally 533 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:40,040 really excited about is, you know, this movement, this sort 534 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:44,760 of parallel movement on the financial side to stable coins, 535 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:49,239 to tokenized assets, You know, all of that results in money 536 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:52,760 being able to move cross-border with instant settlement instead 537 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:56,679 of, you know, the various waiting processes that exist in 538 00:34:56,679 --> 00:34:59,920 the legacy framework with anything instant, you need to 539 00:34:59,920 --> 00:35:05,120 have really, really great also instant deterministic identity 540 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:09,200 verification, government issued ID's are the solution to that. 541 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:12,320 And most of those businesses do tend to have a global scope. 542 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:15,760 So certainly plugging into both developed and developing 543 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:19,480 countries to do that I think is really important. 544 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:21,800 And we see demand and drivers there. 545 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:25,040 And just in general, financial services, I mean, they're 546 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:29,600 getting hit with a ton of fraud. This is a solution even if it 547 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:34,680 doesn't cover every person. As the coverage begins to take 548 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:39,040 place, if you can start solving for it, start plugging it in to 549 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:43,040 the user journey, start experimenting with it, measure 550 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,520 the different outcomes. You know, we're starting to see 551 00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:48,960 that moment momentum now. I've personally seen a huge 552 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:53,840 interest, even though it's still pretty nascent, but financial 553 00:35:53,840 --> 00:36:01,840 services, fintech, marketplaces, social media sharing economy, 554 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,680 they all want to plug into mobile driver's licenses. 555 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:08,600 It's just a matter of sort of creating the right pathways 556 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:12,960 because the value is there. And if they can do it for a 557 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:16,480 segment, you know, and work their way up, you know, there's 558 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:19,720 a lot of interest in starting those tests today and then 559 00:36:19,720 --> 00:36:21,960 you're going to sue the adoption that you're asking about. 560 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:25,440 So we then we're still in that fragmented environment, right? 561 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:27,360 Where it's like, OK, 20 states have it. 562 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:29,280 I'm in a state that doesn't have it. 563 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:34,240 Is it all of a sudden now the, you know, the citizens or the 564 00:36:34,240 --> 00:36:38,560 residents of that state are pushing their local government 565 00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:41,160 to adopt this? Is that one way to kind of get 566 00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:43,520 this to move faster? Because it'll never move as fast 567 00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:46,480 as everyone wants it to and it'll never be 100%. 568 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:49,960 But I feel like at least in the US, until we have all 50 states 569 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:53,760 on it, which means now it is distributed like a driver's 570 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:58,000 license, that will be one thing that really kind of drives the 571 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:01,320 adoption to move things forward. The other thing that I, I, I 572 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:05,360 kind of get concerned about is we talked about KYC on the fraud 573 00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:07,520 side of things. What about know your employee, 574 00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:09,120 right? There's a lot of instances of 575 00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:11,440 fraud where people are getting hired that aren't who they say 576 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:16,240 they are and there's really no Kye know your employee, know 577 00:37:16,240 --> 00:37:19,160 your contractor, know your, you know, whoever may be that. 578 00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:21,880 I think there is an opportunity to take identity verification 579 00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:26,000 down that route versus just my customer, which tends to be 580 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:29,920 more, you know, a commercial sort of environment. 581 00:37:30,240 --> 00:37:33,200 Oh definitely. And I should have mentioned that 582 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:36,000 in the use cases that are drivers, I mean, know your 583 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:41,520 employee workforce management, there is, you know, just new 584 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:44,280 vectors of fraud in in all of that. 585 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:49,640 So, and this is an example where, you know, an employer 586 00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:53,840 might even have a need to have, you know, their own sort of 587 00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:59,000 wallet for their employees for access for events, for, you 588 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,280 know, providing different benefits that maybe need to go 589 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:06,160 seamlessly. So like your imagination can 590 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,680 really run wild, right, with different things you can do for 591 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:12,880 your workforce. If you had this concept of a 592 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:15,960 secured, you know, credential wallet, you could issue 593 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,240 different credentials for different things. 594 00:38:18,240 --> 00:38:21,160 So there's all sorts of stuff that you can do, but workforce 595 00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:24,440 management definitely is one area. 596 00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:27,240 And that's something that's becoming more and more regulated 597 00:38:27,240 --> 00:38:30,040 as well, like enabled through a digital channel. 598 00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:33,840 Because it wasn't that long ago. And I've worked with some 599 00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:37,200 customers in the UK where they would be bringing on remote 600 00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:39,880 employees and that remote employee would have to drive 3 601 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:44,560 hours to come in just to show their passport in person and 602 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:45,840 all. Those people got hired during 603 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:48,440 like, COVID, had to go to somewhere. 604 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:50,160 I remember I had to do this, you know? 605 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,160 Yeah, it's a pain. Yeah, it's a pain. 606 00:38:53,840 --> 00:39:00,320 And so that's changing. So I I guess in summary I agree 607 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:01,440 with you. Great. 608 00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:03,520 I'm going to isolate that and that'll become, you know, the 609 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:06,200 theme for the show. I want to wrap up the 610 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:08,760 conversation with something that we that you originally started 611 00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:09,880 with. You mentioned you took some time 612 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:12,480 off and you mentioned rainforests and you mentioned 613 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:15,760 adoption of dogs. So I have two adoptions of my 614 00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:18,840 own, probably going to be adopting another one here when I 615 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:22,160 get back. I want to hear about your dogs 616 00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:24,840 and tell me a little bit more about that because I'm with you. 617 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:26,360 Adopt, you know, dog shop, right? 618 00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:29,200 And they are such a big part of our family now. 619 00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:34,280 So I want to pivot to dog talk. Dogs all day, tell me. 620 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:38,280 About how many dogs do you have? You know, give me, give me some 621 00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:42,160 insight into what's happened. I personally have three dogs, I 622 00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:47,960 have a German Shepherd and I have two Pitbull Husky mixes. 623 00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:51,000 Because that's a loud house. That's a loud house. 624 00:39:51,240 --> 00:39:54,640 It's there. Well, coyotes like to visit my 625 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:59,040 house and they howl to my dogs and then my dogs howl back at 626 00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:02,920 them. The pit bull Huskies, do you 627 00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:05,880 know, they're all high energy dogs, So I got to say they keep 628 00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:07,520 me in shape. They're all rescues. 629 00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:14,000 And the third one I rescued during my time off and I went up 630 00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:18,360 to the shelter in LA. And I learned more about the 631 00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:22,160 situation where there's just a record number being surrendered. 632 00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:24,960 And I decided that I had to do something about it. 633 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:27,560 So I started working with the volunteers and the rescue 634 00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:31,160 organizations, and I started specifically looking at how to 635 00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:34,080 facilitate out of state adoptions because we have a 636 00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:37,440 really bad situation here in California with just the 637 00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:40,160 shelters. They're at like 200% capacity. 638 00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:43,720 And most of the dogs in there are just wonderful pets. 639 00:40:43,720 --> 00:40:46,720 All three of my rescues are the best dogs ever. 640 00:40:47,720 --> 00:40:49,040 You know, they can be a bit of a pain. 641 00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:51,120 The Husky mixes they like to bowl. 642 00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:52,280 Dogs are the best people you know. 643 00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:55,640 The dogs are the best people and they're grateful. 644 00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:58,280 They know they've been rescued. And it just breaks my heart 645 00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:03,080 because, you know, all dogs deserve to have love and a good 646 00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:05,920 home and a leader and all that good stuff. 647 00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:10,280 So I decided to see if I could help facilitate out of state 648 00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:13,920 adoptions. So I worked on that for a while. 649 00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:16,280 I was trying to figure out how to make the process slower. 650 00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:19,720 I mean, honestly, it's just a really heart wrenching, 651 00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:25,480 difficult, very manual thing to do with sharing and trying to 652 00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:29,600 find people to adopt the dogs, arranging for logistics. 653 00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:34,480 You know, I looked into things like finding extra capacity with 654 00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:37,320 truckers to help drive dogs to different locations. 655 00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:40,240 So I I just did a bunch of work and trying to figure out how to 656 00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:44,240 facilitate mainly out of state adoptions and to get some dogs 657 00:41:44,240 --> 00:41:48,880 out of the shelter so. My wife volunteers for Mountain 658 00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:50,920 Pet Rescue in the Asheville area, so shout out to Mountain 659 00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:52,720 Pet Rescue. I know they're listening to the 660 00:41:52,720 --> 00:41:56,160 identity center guys, but you know, being part of those 661 00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:58,760 convoys, right, where it's kind of like they'll take them from 662 00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:01,520 here to here and then someone else, you know, they move from 663 00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,360 one car to another to get them across state lines or to large 664 00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:06,880 distances. It's amazing that volunteer 665 00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:09,360 effort that is taking place. And it's such a grassroots thing 666 00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:11,600 because it seems like every shelter is overflowing. 667 00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:16,480 And so I can't imagine our house without the dogs that we've 668 00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:18,520 adopted. They are such a big part of our 669 00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:20,600 family. Now we have 3. 670 00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:22,360 We lost one last kind of Christmas. 671 00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:24,840 And so now we're, I get to pick the next one. 672 00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:27,560 So we'll hit to the, the, you know, to the shelter probably 673 00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:30,400 when I get back from Grapevine and, you know, figure out, you 674 00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:34,040 know, what makes sense, you know, from a family dynamic and 675 00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:36,080 making sure and, you know, letting our dogs be part of that 676 00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:38,240 as well because they've got to get along too. 677 00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:41,480 So it's a big part of it. But I just, I can't imagine, you 678 00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:44,240 know, what would life be like without those dogs? 679 00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:45,440 I know. Me neither. 680 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:47,400 I've got three dogs. I also have two cats. 681 00:42:48,240 --> 00:42:51,360 The smallest cat with little stubby legs and he's kind of 682 00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:54,240 chubby. He's the pack leader of the 683 00:42:54,240 --> 00:42:57,560 animal ecosystem in my house. They have their own, you know, 684 00:42:57,720 --> 00:43:02,120 thing going on, but the little cat is the leader of everyone, 685 00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:03,680 including the big dogs. That's. 686 00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:06,600 Personally say it's not just dogs, it's also cats. 687 00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:11,680 I'm sure other pets as well. Goats, chickens, I mean bunnies. 688 00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:13,320 Yeah, I have to. I have to draw the line 689 00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:14,640 somewhere. I don't want to turn into like a 690 00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:16,520 farmyard, but I'm good with dogs. 691 00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:20,000 I'd like to adopt A pig and I'd like to have chickens. 692 00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:24,320 But you know, it's there's, it's a lot of work to maintain. 693 00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:27,360 We feel like I'm always clean enough after now that my kids 694 00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:30,360 are older, I keep adopting animals and, you know, my 695 00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:32,560 husband is like, OK, can we stop? 696 00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:34,760 You know, you don't need to just keep filling the house. 697 00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:37,960 I'm like, I don't know, I just, I like to take care of other 698 00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,600 living beings and. We have chickens sort of like in 699 00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:44,320 the area of our where we live, but we also have black bears and 700 00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:48,200 those things attract things along with, you know, mountain 701 00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:51,800 lions and all kind, you know, hyenas and not hyenas, but Cody 702 00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:55,560 coyotes and stuff like that. Like there's those are 703 00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:59,560 definitely dangers that we have to kind of take into account. 704 00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:01,960 We've we've had several close calls of bears and our dogs 705 00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:04,880 where a bear will come through our front yard and kind of 706 00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:07,480 around and, you know, the dogs are outside and next thing you 707 00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:10,360 know, it's like, you know, if the bears typically don't want 708 00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:12,160 anything to do with it and they'll kind of scurry away. 709 00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:14,840 But yeah, that's that's not something that I know who's. 710 00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:16,840 Going to win that fight, right? Yeah, right, right. 711 00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:20,360 So I'm, yeah, again, I'm not interested in testing it, but 712 00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:22,720 that's, that's kind of where we're at right now, Yes. 713 00:44:23,240 --> 00:44:27,480 One one of my dogs jumps our fence to go play with packs of 714 00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:30,360 coyotes. We had to extend our 6 foot 715 00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:35,320 fences to 9 feet and she managed to launch off a boulder in our 716 00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:37,560 backyard. And actually I, I was like 717 00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:40,200 standing out there and I saw her do it and she launched over a 718 00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:42,400 nine foot fence to go play with the coyotes. 719 00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:43,920 I was like, all right, I give up. 720 00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:47,680 Can't stop the can't stop containment. 721 00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:50,640 It's like what it is what it is. I appreciate you taking time 722 00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:52,040 with us. It's been a while since we got a 723 00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:53,960 chance to talk, so it's kind of good to reconnect. 724 00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:57,560 And I feel like there's so much hope here that we can be 725 00:44:57,560 --> 00:44:59,440 glomming onto. And I'm going to try to be more, 726 00:44:59,920 --> 00:45:04,360 you know, positive to try and get there. 727 00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:08,960 But I just, I want to go faster. Like decentralized identities, 728 00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:12,480 digital wallets sounds great. Yeah. 729 00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:16,000 But get me there faster. That's my plea, You know, to the 730 00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:18,040 people who are listening, that actually can make those happen. 731 00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:20,440 But get there faster. Yeah, yeah. 732 00:45:20,720 --> 00:45:23,480 I couldn't agree more. Big benefits. 733 00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:29,320 But you know, the acceleration curve has really just steepened 734 00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:32,640 in the last couple years. So it's going to keep going 735 00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:33,800 faster. I know it. 736 00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:35,800 OK. We'll go and wrap it up. 737 00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:37,400 Jim, anything else? No, sounds great. 738 00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:39,360 OK, All right, we'll go ahead and leave it there for this 739 00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:41,440 week. Thanks everybody for watching 740 00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:42,800 and or listening. You'll find us on the web 741 00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:47,760 idacpodcast.com. Let's see idacpodcast.tv, the 742 00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:50,120 YouTube like subscribe that helps us get great guests like 743 00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:53,040 Sarah to join us. And yeah, so thanks everyone for 744 00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:55,200 watching or listening, and we'll talk with everyone in the next 745 00:45:55,200 --> 00:46:00,400 one. I've been listening to Identity 746 00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:03,600 at the Center. We hope you've enjoyed the show. 747 00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:07,880 Make sure to like, rate and review, and we'll be back soon. 748 00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:10,440 But in the meantime, hit the website at 749 00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:16,760 identity@thecenter.com. See you next time on Identity at 750 00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:17,680 the Center.