1 00:00:09,700 --> 00:00:12,400 You're listening to the identity at the center podcast. 2 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:14,900 This is the show that talks about identity and access 3 00:00:14,900 --> 00:00:18,000 management and making sure you know who has access to what 4 00:00:18,100 --> 00:00:26,500 let's get started. Welcome to the identity of the 5 00:00:26,500 --> 00:00:28,400 center podcast I'm Jeff. And that's Jim. 6 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:30,200 Hey Jem. Hey, Jeff, how are you? 7 00:00:30,300 --> 00:00:32,800 Oh, not so bad yourself. I'm doing good man. 8 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:39,500 Here in the RSM podcast, rzm sponsored podcasting sweet. 9 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:42,300 The sweet sweet. We've been here all week stop 10 00:00:42,300 --> 00:00:45,000 doing that. It's not well, I've only only 11 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:49,500 can do it for a few more times. After, you know, I've had a 12 00:00:49,500 --> 00:00:53,500 great couple of days here, learn so much. 13 00:00:53,500 --> 00:00:56,300 Got to You old friends, make new friends. 14 00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:59,200 But I do want to Lodge a complaint. 15 00:00:59,300 --> 00:01:02,000 Yeah. And not going to Lodge the same 16 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:04,099 complaint, which I normally do, which is too cold. 17 00:01:04,099 --> 00:01:07,300 It is this free breakfast that you've provided me is not meet 18 00:01:07,300 --> 00:01:09,700 my standards. No, it won't be that. 19 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:12,900 What? It's a real complaint bought. 20 00:01:12,900 --> 00:01:16,900 Two bottles of water at the pool the other day or didn't you said 21 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:20,000 and you know what, it costs, two bottles of water. 22 00:01:20,500 --> 00:01:26,800 I'm going to say $15 T $30.00. How big are these bottles? 23 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:29,500 They're big but they mean what you're talking about. 24 00:01:29,500 --> 00:01:31,300 Water doesn't matter how big they are. 25 00:01:32,300 --> 00:01:35,000 I guess. Not absolutely crazy. 26 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:37,400 I don't think they can play that on inflation. 27 00:01:37,700 --> 00:01:39,400 Well that's a kiss for you. I mean everything here is just 28 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:40,300 expensive. Yeah. 29 00:01:40,300 --> 00:01:43,700 Usually I'd say it's by the end of the week I'm like I can't 30 00:01:43,700 --> 00:01:45,400 wait to get out of here. I think. 31 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:49,100 If I don't get out of here ASAP I'm going to be broke. 32 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:52,200 Well, we will definitely get are getting out of here. 33 00:01:52,900 --> 00:01:55,600 We're recording this as the kind of the last day of the Gartner 34 00:01:55,700 --> 00:01:58,900 conference here. It's been a wild ride, lots of 35 00:01:58,900 --> 00:02:00,700 great guests. We've got another great one 36 00:02:00,700 --> 00:02:01,600 here. We're going to be talking about, 37 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:04,000 Brad to me. He's a Senior Solutions engineer 38 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:06,200 at Indy, kite. Welcome to the show. 39 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:08,100 Thank you. Thanks for having me, guys. 40 00:02:08,100 --> 00:02:10,199 Really pretty cool to listen to a lot. 41 00:02:10,199 --> 00:02:12,900 So it's pretty cool to be here and it is definitely a sweet 42 00:02:12,900 --> 00:02:16,000 sweet. Don't get him started. 43 00:02:16,100 --> 00:02:21,400 So, it's a sweet sweet. So Before we get too far along, 44 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:23,600 we have if you are a listener you will know that. 45 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:26,200 The first question we always ask our guests is, how did they get 46 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:28,600 into the identity space? What's your identity origin 47 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:31,600 story did, did you choose Identity or did it choose you? 48 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:33,800 I'm going to say identity chose me. 49 00:02:34,700 --> 00:02:37,000 I think it's sort of a sort of my career as an application 50 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:44,900 developer and the a couple years into my career somebody that I 51 00:02:44,900 --> 00:02:48,700 worked with had left and sort of working for a new company and he 52 00:02:48,700 --> 00:02:51,700 called me up and he said, Hey, I met this new company. 53 00:02:51,700 --> 00:02:54,400 We're doing identity management and since that's what you and I 54 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:57,900 were working on at the at the last place, they want to talk to 55 00:02:57,900 --> 00:03:02,100 you and I thought I did it. I don't, what are you talking 56 00:03:02,100 --> 00:03:03,300 about? I have no idea. 57 00:03:03,300 --> 00:03:05,200 I had no idea what I didn't even, I had no idea what he was 58 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:06,600 talking about. We had worked on. 59 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:09,700 We were, we had written some code to create. 60 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:14,600 They were our sacred initials at the time and to me, it was just, 61 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:17,300 we're just writing code to create our essay credentials and 62 00:03:17,300 --> 00:03:19,200 I really don't know what RC credentials are. 63 00:03:20,300 --> 00:03:25,900 So from there this was this was early 2000's from, they're just 64 00:03:25,900 --> 00:03:29,000 sort of jump at and they're going to the nuke that new 65 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:32,600 company and they were they have been a lot of federal 66 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:37,200 Contracting and at the time I think was you off program like 67 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:45,200 around the 863 and the M4 for that was coming out. 68 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:49,800 So all the federal agencies were scrambling to to do you know to 69 00:03:49,900 --> 00:03:53,400 Great. And so my role there was 70 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:56,900 basically to do a bake off between the the major vendors at 71 00:03:56,900 --> 00:04:01,500 the time so that sort of parlayed that into a Consulting 72 00:04:01,500 --> 00:04:04,600 career ended up working for Oracle. 73 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:08,200 They're starting my own company company did that for 15 years 74 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:13,000 and you know, just kind of focused a lot with like you 75 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,600 know, one or two vendors. Just so I can really get, you 76 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:19,200 know, kind of like the t-shaped expertise. 77 00:04:19,300 --> 00:04:22,200 You don't like a really Focus and then just, you know, more 78 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:27,500 recently with indicate. So it's I guess the the long 79 00:04:27,500 --> 00:04:30,700 answer there is, its kind of stumbled into it and then it 80 00:04:30,700 --> 00:04:33,500 grabbed a hold of me right now and That's My Philosophy. 81 00:04:33,500 --> 00:04:36,300 I think most people at least some my conversations. 82 00:04:36,300 --> 00:04:38,900 I've been having is that generally identity. 83 00:04:38,900 --> 00:04:41,400 Pick them somehow they fell into it. 84 00:04:41,700 --> 00:04:45,700 Stumbled into it and the hooks have been deep and generally 85 00:04:45,700 --> 00:04:47,800 haven't, you know, gotten away from it. 86 00:04:48,300 --> 00:04:50,100 I want to talk about Indie kite in a That. 87 00:04:50,100 --> 00:04:53,500 But from a conference perspective how has the Gartner 88 00:04:53,500 --> 00:04:56,100 conference been for you? Any highlights any interesting 89 00:04:56,100 --> 00:04:59,300 stories conversations things like that that have taken place? 90 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:02,800 Yeah, I would like to, I'd like to Second the the cost of water 91 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:07,200 here in the desert. The water is not cheap, that's 92 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:09,400 running out. Yeah the conference has been 93 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:10,600 good. It's been really good. 94 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:12,800 I mean, this is this is the second or third conference. 95 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:17,200 I've been to the last in the last year but I got to say it's 96 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:21,100 nice to be back in front of people and Not have a video 97 00:05:21,100 --> 00:05:25,000 screen or a monitor in between US unless you don't get to a 98 00:05:25,008 --> 00:05:26,600 session in time. Yes. 99 00:05:27,700 --> 00:05:30,100 The sessions have been really good. 100 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:33,000 The the I think for me the Highlight, there's two 101 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:36,000 highlights. The one is that the sessions 102 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:42,000 themselves have affirmed, kind of the the vision that we're 103 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:46,600 working on it indicate and so it's good to hear that from from 104 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:50,000 from, you know, from someone like Gartner and not just You 105 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:53,200 know, some some random person said, hey yeah, you know did a 106 00:05:53,207 --> 00:05:57,200 project like that once too. So it's nice to have that that 107 00:05:57,200 --> 00:05:58,900 confirmation that we're on the right track. 108 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:04,400 The other thing is just the and I know it's it's everybody says 109 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:09,700 it, but it's the networking, the conversations, you know, from 110 00:06:10,500 --> 00:06:13,000 identity management of such a small community. 111 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:16,800 Everybody knows everybody. So you know, you're seeing old 112 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:20,300 friends, you're seeing you're seeing people that you You know, 113 00:06:20,300 --> 00:06:23,600 maybe you've never met them in person before, but you've you've 114 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:28,200 talked them or you've exchanged emails for 15 years, so it is 115 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:31,900 this conversation? Yes, exactly, exactly. 116 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,400 But the, it's the random conversations, you know, you're 117 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:37,900 standing in line for coffee and the person in front of you, just 118 00:06:37,900 --> 00:06:39,800 turns around and starts talking, you know. 119 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:42,600 And they were, they they look at your badge and they're like, you 120 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:44,500 know, I've never heard of your company before. 121 00:06:44,500 --> 00:06:47,200 Tell me what you do and that that you go down into this 122 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:49,700 rabbit hole with them. And, you know, they start. 123 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:53,000 You're comparing use cases. You're comparing situations or 124 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,000 in a lot of cases that you don't even talk technology or identity 125 00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:58,800 management. You just talk. 126 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:00,800 You just, you know, where you from. 127 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:03,000 Oh, cool, I've been there. I've never been there. 128 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,900 You know, it's that, I think that's the best part. 129 00:07:05,900 --> 00:07:09,800 And so weird for me, some typically pretty introverted, 130 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:12,600 you know, I spent a lot of time in my hotel room when I go to 131 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:15,500 conferences just because, you know, the crowds tend to be a 132 00:07:15,500 --> 00:07:18,000 little overwhelming. But with this, you know, I found 133 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:19,300 myself like, okay, you know what? 134 00:07:19,300 --> 00:07:21,700 I'm going to Grab my laptop, go find a table. 135 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:25,100 I'll be I'll be near the crowd, you know, kind of like crowd 136 00:07:25,100 --> 00:07:26,500 adjacent. Yeah, exactly. 137 00:07:27,700 --> 00:07:29,700 You know, then you see someone that you haven't seen in a 138 00:07:29,700 --> 00:07:32,100 couple years and so it's been cool. 139 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:36,100 I mean, so I would say those are the two, the two highlights. 140 00:07:36,500 --> 00:07:39,800 Lowlights really haven't been any, I mean, just, you know, 141 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:42,900 joking about the cost of the water, you know, I was going to 142 00:07:42,900 --> 00:07:47,200 save the charge for coffee in the hotel room and you know, 143 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:49,300 it's coffee's been plentiful downstairs. 144 00:07:49,300 --> 00:07:51,400 So, Can't complain too much about that. 145 00:07:51,500 --> 00:07:54,400 That is a bummer because you know, that is my complaint to 146 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:55,700 and it's a first-world complaint. 147 00:07:55,700 --> 00:07:57,400 Yeah, I'm you know, we're in this sweet. 148 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:00,900 Thank you RSM again this week. The sweet, sweet sweet, and now 149 00:08:00,900 --> 00:08:06,000 you got me doing it but they cap you it to Internet devices and 150 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:09,100 then charge you $15 right to connect another one. 151 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:12,600 It's a sweet and you have two devices. 152 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:15,300 What are the expectations there? It just doesn't make any sense 153 00:08:15,300 --> 00:08:15,900 to me. Yeah. 154 00:08:15,900 --> 00:08:19,000 Even if you're just one person in the room, you have you have 155 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:20,700 four or five. Without a doubt. 156 00:08:20,700 --> 00:08:24,100 I got my phone to laptop, Etc. So yeah, Caesars get your act 157 00:08:24,100 --> 00:08:27,400 together on my flight, my Delta flight coming here. 158 00:08:27,700 --> 00:08:30,500 I could connect for four hours for five bucks. 159 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:36,000 No, but you're connecting in a chair in the sky race seems more 160 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:38,200 reasonable to pay, only five bucks for that? 161 00:08:38,299 --> 00:08:41,400 Yeah no II. The point I was making is like 162 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:44,800 if they can do that for five bucks, couldn't the sweet. 163 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:46,700 Sweet. Give us more than two 164 00:08:46,700 --> 00:08:50,400 connections, and then not charge 15 bucks or the third. 165 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:51,500 I'm with you. I get it. 166 00:08:51,500 --> 00:08:54,800 I mean another let's lot of such as far as that I will only work 167 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:58,600 for them. Yeah, so Brad you and I have 168 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:01,000 known each other for a long time. 169 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:03,800 What I'd like. 12, 15 years, nothing like that. 170 00:09:05,100 --> 00:09:09,200 Really good to finally have you on the show, one of the things 171 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:13,300 that I wanted to bring up was Jeff and I did an episode where 172 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:18,600 we reached out to was a four or five people about a lot more, 173 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:21,200 only four or five people, you only 45 people responded. 174 00:09:21,500 --> 00:09:24,000 We have some zoo of recording to answer this question. 175 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:28,400 I'm going to pose it to you, which is, you know, the our 176 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:31,500 Industries kind of changed names or is there. 177 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:34,700 Um, name change happening from Identity and access management 178 00:09:34,700 --> 00:09:38,500 to digital identity. My question to you is, what's 179 00:09:38,500 --> 00:09:41,800 the difference between digital identity and identity and access 180 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:45,100 management? Yeah, I think from our 181 00:09:45,100 --> 00:09:48,700 perspective, digital identity is the the properties that make up 182 00:09:48,700 --> 00:09:53,100 or describe and Identity or which is just a representation 183 00:09:53,100 --> 00:09:56,100 of something that's out there in the world. 184 00:09:56,100 --> 00:09:59,500 Whether it's a human or non-human, a bought a machine, a 185 00:09:59,500 --> 00:10:01,400 house or car, but whatever it is. 186 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:07,600 Where I am. I are the processes or the 187 00:10:07,608 --> 00:10:10,000 services around that. What can you do with that 188 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:11,400 identity? What can you do with this 189 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:14,100 properties? How do you secure it? 190 00:10:14,100 --> 00:10:17,300 How do you use it? Leverage it for Access, anything 191 00:10:17,300 --> 00:10:20,000 that you can do around that to meet up falls under under. 192 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:23,100 I am? Yeah, I mean I think of the 193 00:10:23,100 --> 00:10:29,700 digital identity is like the fingerprint for a person or a 194 00:10:29,708 --> 00:10:34,400 thing and identity. And when I think of that, it's 195 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:36,800 like, what's the credential information? 196 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:41,200 What is the, you know the digital signature that makes up 197 00:10:41,300 --> 00:10:46,300 a face recognition or whatever kind of biometric were using 198 00:10:46,300 --> 00:10:49,100 sure. It's also probably the core 199 00:10:49,300 --> 00:10:53,600 identity attributes but beyond that the digital identity 200 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:57,200 includes more, right? It's all the things that we want 201 00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:59,100 to collect and know about a person. 202 00:10:59,300 --> 00:11:03,000 So why privacy? Exists because they're going to 203 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:04,900 collect all this information about you. 204 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:09,400 We're going to get data from maybe another source like a DMV. 205 00:11:09,700 --> 00:11:13,600 We're going to get information about what entities you belong 206 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:17,400 to or Associated to or even going to get data about your 207 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:20,800 shopping preferences or what you've bought in the past or 208 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:23,000 websites. You visited, we're going to 209 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,700 store all that. And in talking to you about 210 00:11:25,700 --> 00:11:29,900 Indie kite and kind of learning what your product is all about, 211 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:34,200 kind of think that you guys are taking an approach to that. 212 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:37,000 And so rather than trying to explain to for you, I'm just 213 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:39,900 going to ask you to explain it sure. 214 00:11:39,900 --> 00:11:46,800 So at the core indicates based on the on the graph database 215 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:50,000 technology. So instead of using ldap or like 216 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:54,200 relational database or some other data store, we picked 217 00:11:54,500 --> 00:11:58,600 graph technology and it was very deliberate decision because of 218 00:11:58,608 --> 00:12:02,400 the capabilities, the graph provided The model that we've 219 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:05,700 picked because of the experiences that we've had with 220 00:12:05,700 --> 00:12:09,900 implementations over the last 20 years, is essentially to create 221 00:12:09,900 --> 00:12:15,300 to sort of each customer would get two or more graph databases. 222 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:20,100 The, the first one, the identity graph is that digital identity 223 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:22,700 data that you were that you were describing. 224 00:12:22,700 --> 00:12:26,100 So the properties are the credentials that make up that, 225 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:29,500 that digital Identity or that make up that that identity, 226 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:36,000 whereas Each customer that we work with each customer, each 227 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:41,100 organization would has their own business model and to try to fit 228 00:12:41,100 --> 00:12:45,800 that or bend that into the identity graph is impossible. 229 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:49,200 And so it's which you're usually left with is either you're going 230 00:12:49,200 --> 00:13:00,100 to massively warp, your schema and try to fit it into the 231 00:13:00,100 --> 00:13:02,500 customers model. Or you're going to, you're going 232 00:13:02,500 --> 00:13:08,000 to massively warp, the customers model to match your schema and 233 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:12,400 neither of those are ideal. So, to resolve that we have, the 234 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:14,500 second graph, which we call the knowledge graph. 235 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:22,100 And because the graph database is, you can essentially, when 236 00:13:22,100 --> 00:13:24,600 you're modeling a graph database, you're using like, a 237 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:29,400 your, it's a real world model. So it's a one for one mapping 238 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:33,900 between, what is the customers? Business model look like and 239 00:13:33,900 --> 00:13:35,500 what does that graph model look like? 240 00:13:35,700 --> 00:13:39,900 And so between, you have those two graphs, we import the data, 241 00:13:39,900 --> 00:13:42,700 we get the data into the graph, the customers data, and then we 242 00:13:42,700 --> 00:13:45,800 create a relationship between the digital Twins or the digital 243 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:50,700 identity from the identity graph to the knowledge graph. 244 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:53,000 And then the week, the graph works is, it's all about 245 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:56,100 traversing, the graph and finding the paths within the 246 00:13:56,100 --> 00:13:58,700 graph. To what are you related to you? 247 00:13:58,700 --> 00:14:02,600 What are you connected to? And then using that That it's 248 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:06,900 using that relationship to determine access or do you 249 00:14:07,100 --> 00:14:10,300 determine entitlements or determine what can you do? 250 00:14:10,300 --> 00:14:14,500 And so that's really kind of the way we were seeing way we're 251 00:14:14,500 --> 00:14:17,600 building. The, the I am services around 252 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:22,400 that things have always kind of wondered with graph databases is 253 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,500 why they're white. They weren't, you know, 254 00:14:25,500 --> 00:14:30,300 wholeheartedly adopted more because I know in what I found 255 00:14:30,300 --> 00:14:33,400 with developing And mostly on the customer side. 256 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:38,500 So, like big identity management use cases, is you have these 257 00:14:38,500 --> 00:14:42,200 relationships that exist. So it's not only the identity 258 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:47,900 but you have relationship to an entity or relational data, and 259 00:14:47,900 --> 00:14:53,000 if you put that into a sequel database, then the problem is 260 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:56,300 that when you have a massive amount of data, tons of 261 00:14:56,300 --> 00:14:59,300 relationships, it crawls to a halt, right? 262 00:14:59,300 --> 00:15:03,300 It gets really slow. Idea with the graph databases 263 00:15:03,300 --> 00:15:07,200 that, you know, you you're not confined by doll that structure 264 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:11,200 but it has the power of building the relationships and fetching 265 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:15,900 the data quickly. So I always kind of wonder why I 266 00:15:15,900 --> 00:15:18,900 didn't even Management Systems weren't already adopting the 267 00:15:18,900 --> 00:15:22,500 graph. You guys are so do you know what 268 00:15:22,500 --> 00:15:26,200 was holding that back and why you feel like you can overcome 269 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:27,200 those things? Yeah. 270 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:31,200 So I think it's a it's a resource issue. 271 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:35,400 So if you've spent the last 15, 20 years, building your 272 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:38,000 platform, building your foundation, and it's based on 273 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:41,200 ldap, the three of us. We've all worked in the 274 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:43,800 industry. We've spent the last 15 20 275 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:45,300 years. Convincing people to stop using 276 00:15:45,300 --> 00:15:47,400 databases, get your passwords out of the database. 277 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:50,400 Put it into a know that. Well, are you going to go back 278 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:52,600 and say, hey, remember, we told you to use all that we want you 279 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:57,300 to now use a graph database. So plus we've invested, you 280 00:15:57,300 --> 00:16:00,900 know, we have millions of lines of code that are all tied. 281 00:16:01,500 --> 00:16:06,000 Pretty closely to out to ldap. So to go back and retrofit that 282 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:09,000 is I think it's a daunting daunting task. 283 00:16:10,500 --> 00:16:14,200 That's why we decided to start basically start over. 284 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:17,300 You know, that mean there's a lot of Open Source libraries out 285 00:16:17,300 --> 00:16:19,300 there that we could have used. There's, there's products that 286 00:16:19,300 --> 00:16:23,400 we could have used and we could have just, you know, retrofitted 287 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:29,400 but it was cleaner and better for a lot of reasons to just, 288 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:31,300 let's start from, let's start from zero. 289 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:33,800 It's I mean if you're going to, if you're going to, if you're 290 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:36,200 gonna start a revolution, you gotta Gotta Throw it all out, 291 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:38,300 right? So that's that's you know, 292 00:16:38,300 --> 00:16:41,400 that's why we that's what we basically started from those 293 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:43,900 kind of been like a tactical problem is that everybody was 294 00:16:43,900 --> 00:16:47,400 starting where it said. Ol daps fast bad at 295 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:51,600 relationships, but we're going to use it because and then we 296 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:54,600 they built their product that way and it was hard to kind of 297 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:58,100 like a bandit that I moved to something better. 298 00:16:58,300 --> 00:17:01,300 Yeah and I think that I don't want to knock all day. 299 00:17:01,500 --> 00:17:05,400 I've spent the better part of my career working with ldap in it 300 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:09,700 was for the identity problems. I think ldap was better than a 301 00:17:09,700 --> 00:17:14,000 database. It definitely served its purpose 302 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:16,500 for a long time but when we started hitting that wall with 303 00:17:16,500 --> 00:17:20,599 access control and authorization and hitting the limit the limits 304 00:17:20,599 --> 00:17:23,500 of our back and finding that. Okay, well we're going to, you 305 00:17:23,500 --> 00:17:26,200 know, we're going to do an are back role-based access control 306 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:30,300 project and you know, oh no. You now have you have twice as 307 00:17:30,300 --> 00:17:34,600 many roles what? We do, we do, it's just, it's a 308 00:17:34,608 --> 00:17:37,100 recurring problem. And, you know, I don't think 309 00:17:37,100 --> 00:17:40,300 that I think as an industry we've spent a lot of time on a 310 00:17:40,300 --> 00:17:42,600 authentication, but I don't think we've spent much time on 311 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:44,700 authorization. And so, that's, you know, that's 312 00:17:44,700 --> 00:17:47,700 kind of put a Line in the Sand and said, this is what this is 313 00:17:47,700 --> 00:17:49,600 where we're, this is where we're going to make the mark and this 314 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:50,900 is where we're going to go after. 315 00:17:50,900 --> 00:17:52,200 We're going to try to solve that. 316 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:56,600 So I think it's kind of a two prong issue, right? 317 00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:00,500 So it's not about digital identity, which sounds pretty 318 00:18:00,500 --> 00:18:03,600 clear like you guys. R /, you know, putting G of 319 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:08,500 their solution to manage the identity as well as the the 320 00:18:08,500 --> 00:18:12,200 knowledge, all that, whatever that whatever data that business 321 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:16,000 has about the Identity or about other things that need 322 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:19,400 relationship to the identity. They've got you've got the real 323 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:22,100 identity piece down. Now, when I think of identity 324 00:18:22,100 --> 00:18:25,800 and access management, I think of all the processes that are 325 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:30,100 associated with managing, I use are extracting that data so it's 326 00:18:30,100 --> 00:18:34,900 kind of the the tool Cooling and the management of everything 327 00:18:34,900 --> 00:18:39,400 that's in that digital fingerprint of a person, plus 328 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:44,600 all that knowledge about them. So does indicate also address 329 00:18:44,700 --> 00:18:47,900 that piece? That's tough question. 330 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,900 Or I should say not at all, but it's a complex question. 331 00:18:54,900 --> 00:19:00,000 We're building the tools to manage that the challenges with 332 00:19:01,900 --> 00:19:07,700 the services that you need is around that identity is 333 00:19:07,900 --> 00:19:11,100 determining what the identity is. 334 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:17,200 So if you're a human and you have a digital identity, you may 335 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:20,300 need to have a password. You may need to have a password 336 00:19:20,300 --> 00:19:24,500 reset, you may need to have an impersonal verification, you may 337 00:19:24,500 --> 00:19:32,600 need to have all the things that a human would need to do to in 338 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:34,900 the in the life cycle of their identity. 339 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:41,000 You can't apply those same Services, the same principles to 340 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:46,100 a non human identity. So building a set of tools and a 341 00:19:46,100 --> 00:19:50,900 set of services to manage the lifecycle of the identity is 342 00:19:50,900 --> 00:19:55,200 there's commonality between but it's not a one size fits all so 343 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:59,300 I guess that's that's a reason I said, the questions kind of toss 344 00:19:59,300 --> 00:20:02,600 us because it's I've got imagine you guys to take like a Services 345 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:04,800 service-oriented approach to that, right? 346 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:09,400 So providing Our Sizzle. And if you're not going to force 347 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:15,700 structure in that Knowledge Graph, then you almost have to 348 00:20:15,700 --> 00:20:20,100 have like a concept where people can develop their own endpoints 349 00:20:20,100 --> 00:20:22,900 to manipulate the data. Of course, if you're going to 350 00:20:22,900 --> 00:20:28,600 have an IM tool, you want to enforce certain principles 351 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:34,400 around that and I was thinking of and I can't even remember the 352 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:38,000 name, but there's a type of A point as available in the for 353 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:41,500 drunk, I DM product right where you could create your own 354 00:20:41,500 --> 00:20:46,500 endpoints of some kind of wondering if that is something 355 00:20:46,500 --> 00:20:49,100 that you guys have something similar. 356 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:51,800 And then I also wanted to bring up the whole for dark piece 357 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:56,100 because just knowing that the founder of your company lost the 358 00:20:56,100 --> 00:21:01,200 Anderson was also, you know, one of the founders anyway of 359 00:21:01,300 --> 00:21:05,600 forgerock. So certainly the right pedigree 360 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:07,900 there. Maybe kind of talked about that, 361 00:21:07,900 --> 00:21:10,800 that endpoint thing and then talk a little bit about you 362 00:21:10,808 --> 00:21:15,400 know, what, you know, loss A did to get the company started. 363 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:16,200 The sure. Sure. 364 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:21,700 So as far as the custom in point, I do with, I know what 365 00:21:21,700 --> 00:21:23,400 you're talking about. I DM, you can create, you can 366 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:27,400 create with my JavaScript you can, you can create a custom 367 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:31,100 endpoint and you know, exposed that out as a service. 368 00:21:31,500 --> 00:21:35,700 We don't have that that could be, could be something that we 369 00:21:35,900 --> 00:21:39,800 Eventually would add in the value of something like that. 370 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:42,100 Is it essentially the availability of the data? 371 00:21:42,900 --> 00:21:45,900 Yeah, I'm trying to I was trying to think through kind of the the 372 00:21:45,900 --> 00:21:47,900 use case. I think we would get to a point 373 00:21:47,900 --> 00:21:55,000 where that would be you would need to have We just can't think 374 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:57,800 of all the services that that a company or organization would 375 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:02,600 need around their data model. And so, what it makes sense to 376 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:07,000 have to be able to extend the platform and say, you know what, 377 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:09,300 create your own apis, create your own Services. 378 00:22:09,300 --> 00:22:12,200 I think that makes makes sense. That's probably something that 379 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,800 we would eventually get to to needing. 380 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:19,600 I think it was, I think it was a couple years into until I DM 381 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:21,800 before they before they have that capability, right? 382 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:23,700 That was something that came down the road. 383 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:29,000 Yeah. The your second question was 384 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:35,200 more about kind of losses story of from the transition from Ford 385 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:38,000 Rock. So I think loss of the every 386 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:42,300 entrepreneur saw the opportunity saw were the market was going. 387 00:22:43,500 --> 00:22:48,600 I mean, the vision came from a lot of experience working and 388 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:52,500 with graphs. And as I said earlier, you know, 389 00:22:52,500 --> 00:22:56,200 the sort of the validation and that, you know, here at 390 00:22:56,200 --> 00:23:01,500 Gartner's that that creating, that, that identity Fabric, or 391 00:23:01,500 --> 00:23:07,900 creating that, that service layer, and being able to do more 392 00:23:07,900 --> 00:23:12,400 with the identities and to do more with, you know, using using 393 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:16,300 graph. You know, I think to place his 394 00:23:16,300 --> 00:23:19,400 credit, he had that that vision and then have the opportunity 395 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,200 and the means to execute on it. Yeah, I mean, it's like 396 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:23,900 everything we just talked about right there. 397 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:30,000 It's just seems like a solution that was so maybe not so 398 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,000 obvious. I don't want to like take away 399 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,900 any of the of the shine of what has been accomplished here. 400 00:23:34,900 --> 00:23:38,100 But just to me it was like yeah but aren't those the best 401 00:23:38,100 --> 00:23:39,600 products. These are the best. 402 00:23:39,700 --> 00:23:40,600 No. Duh. 403 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:42,700 Why didn't we think of that, it right. 404 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:46,500 Well, it's exciting because you're, you know, you're in the 405 00:23:46,500 --> 00:23:52,900 mix of it, you know, your heads down day-to-day and your you 406 00:23:52,900 --> 00:23:53,900 kind of have to pop your head up there. 407 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,400 Once in a while and say, okay, remind me what the vision is, 408 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:58,300 okay? Okay, yes, yes, yes. 409 00:23:58,300 --> 00:24:02,500 And then I got to how was I was up half the night last night, 410 00:24:02,500 --> 00:24:08,400 just it was so exciting to apologize for keep going back to 411 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,700 this. But, you know, just the 412 00:24:11,700 --> 00:24:16,100 validation, you know, the people I talked I spoke with yesterday 413 00:24:16,100 --> 00:24:21,600 the other presentations, yesterday, just like this is 414 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:23,900 where the markets going, this is where it needs to go, you know? 415 00:24:24,100 --> 00:24:28,000 This is where we need to. We need to. 416 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:32,600 We need to give organizations to tools to be able to build the 417 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,100 sort of building communities out of their customer data. 418 00:24:37,100 --> 00:24:40,600 I mean, able to, when I say community, what I mean is being 419 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:45,200 able to create the relationships between the digital identities. 420 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:48,500 I mean, right now, you know, we're all of us are, you know, 421 00:24:48,500 --> 00:24:51,700 our identities are in hundred, you know, and install hundreds 422 00:24:51,700 --> 00:24:56,100 of different data stores. But none of those identities are 423 00:24:56,100 --> 00:24:59,200 related across and none of the data's. 424 00:24:59,300 --> 00:25:02,600 None of the identities are related within those data 425 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:04,300 stores. So, for example, to construct 426 00:25:04,300 --> 00:25:09,400 the family or organization mean, you just have, you know, most 427 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:13,700 companies just have, you know, a million identities that are all 428 00:25:13,700 --> 00:25:16,100 stand alone. Yeah, I mean, you know, would 429 00:25:17,100 --> 00:25:19,600 why I really wanted to get you on the show and kind of talk 430 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:21,300 through this. Like I said, I've known you for 431 00:25:21,300 --> 00:25:27,500 like 12 15 years. And you've been kind of a, you 432 00:25:27,500 --> 00:25:30,800 know, between independent consultant and kind of running a 433 00:25:31,100 --> 00:25:34,600 small Consulting business, but you could have easily just done 434 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:36,100 that for the rest of your career, right? 435 00:25:36,100 --> 00:25:39,000 You're solving problems and very successful. 436 00:25:39,500 --> 00:25:41,400 So there must have been something about indicate that 437 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:44,400 was just like, all right, I'm going to drop this other stuff 438 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:46,500 that I've been doing been successful. 439 00:25:46,500 --> 00:25:51,000 I'd take a chance with something new and I you know, what is 440 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:51,700 that? What is it? 441 00:25:51,700 --> 00:25:53,900 That, that drove you just make that decision. 442 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,700 Ian, it's to think so. Number one, it was it's the the 443 00:25:57,700 --> 00:26:01,000 vision and being able to execute on that, you know, having spent 444 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:06,300 a lot of time in the in this industry, the problems that were 445 00:26:06,300 --> 00:26:09,700 solving really resonated and I experienced those as a 446 00:26:09,700 --> 00:26:13,900 implementer firsthand, the challenges with ldap, the 447 00:26:13,900 --> 00:26:18,000 challenges with trying to create access policies that are complex 448 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:22,800 enough to solve the problems that the customers are the 449 00:26:22,808 --> 00:26:26,800 organizations are having I mean, the number of times that my 450 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:31,100 response to a customer was okay, well just, you know, let's come 451 00:26:31,100 --> 00:26:33,800 up with a role and will do, you know, we'll do you know, we'll 452 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,300 do role-based access control or tell me what the permission 453 00:26:36,300 --> 00:26:39,700 needs to look like, but being able to be part of, I'm going 454 00:26:39,700 --> 00:26:43,200 into the second part now is but to be able to be part of 455 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:49,100 something much bigger, it's, you know, as a independent 456 00:26:49,100 --> 00:26:53,000 consultant it's a little bit of a lonely world. 457 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:57,500 You You come into an organization and your, you spent 458 00:26:57,500 --> 00:26:59,000 some time there. But at the end of the day, 459 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,100 you're not really part of that organization. 460 00:27:01,100 --> 00:27:05,500 So, I think to be part of a group of people that are 461 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:10,400 building an executing and at this stage, you know, being able 462 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:14,000 to influence some of that. So you know, they, you know, 463 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,200 they are like hey you worked an identity Brad. 464 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,800 What what do you think about this or what do you, you know, 465 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:22,000 and being able to say, okay, well I can look back and I know 466 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,100 that, you know, kind of Yuma ego a little bit. 467 00:27:25,100 --> 00:27:28,200 They, you know, I helped make that decision or, you know, the 468 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,100 products going that direction because I, you know, I 469 00:27:31,100 --> 00:27:33,600 contributed to that, it's the new monuments, right? 470 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:35,600 You're Building Bridges, but it was like the old days, right? 471 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:37,600 You could carve your initials into it now. 472 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:38,700 You're in a line of code somewhere. 473 00:27:38,700 --> 00:27:39,800 Right. Exactly. 474 00:27:39,900 --> 00:27:40,900 Exactly. Yeah. 475 00:27:40,900 --> 00:27:42,400 It's a lot of fun, to be honest with you. 476 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,900 I mean, we could solve things been fun Consultants been good. 477 00:27:46,700 --> 00:27:50,300 But it's, you know, it after 15-20 years, it kind of, you 478 00:27:50,300 --> 00:27:52,800 know, you need something else to get you out of the bed in the 479 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,400 morning and this This is definitely it. 480 00:27:55,700 --> 00:27:59,700 There were some, I was to say, you look great. 481 00:27:59,700 --> 00:28:01,200 You look healthy. I'll thank you. 482 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,500 You look like you are just taking on the world. 483 00:28:04,700 --> 00:28:05,600 Well, thanks. Thanks. 484 00:28:06,300 --> 00:28:09,100 There was something that struck my eye and I know we're getting 485 00:28:09,100 --> 00:28:11,400 short on time but I want to make sure we get to it because it's 486 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:15,600 it's a concept that's relatively new I believe and not something 487 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:18,300 a lot of people know it's called knowledge based access control. 488 00:28:18,300 --> 00:28:21,400 So I think people are probably familiar with role-based access 489 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:25,500 controls but around for like 800 years it seems like and there's 490 00:28:25,500 --> 00:28:28,200 a lot of failed. Our bag projects that are out 491 00:28:28,208 --> 00:28:30,400 there in a lot of messes. We've heard things like 492 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:34,100 attribute bakes, attribute based access control a back policy 493 00:28:34,100 --> 00:28:36,300 based access control. And now I've got this thing. 494 00:28:36,900 --> 00:28:39,400 That you guys have coined as K back? 495 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,800 Is that something that I guess? Tell me about kbecque knowledge? 496 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:44,000 Based Access Control. What is it? 497 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:45,800 And sure, how are you leveraging that? 498 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:50,300 So, so the knowledge and the knowledge in knowledge-based 499 00:28:50,300 --> 00:28:53,700 authentication or knowledge based Access Control comes from 500 00:28:54,100 --> 00:28:57,400 the knowledge graph and the data that's on the knowledge graph, 501 00:28:58,500 --> 00:29:01,600 what's fan what's amazing about graph database technology? 502 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:07,300 Is that it's not the just the data that the I did Identity or 503 00:29:07,300 --> 00:29:11,800 the the thing that that digital identities related to you, it's 504 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,800 the relationship between those two with graph. 505 00:29:15,300 --> 00:29:22,200 You can extend augment add to describe the relationship. 506 00:29:22,500 --> 00:29:26,200 So you may be connected to your simple. 507 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,700 Simple example, you're connected to your car. 508 00:29:28,700 --> 00:29:34,000 The label on that on. That line says Jim owns this 509 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:41,200 car. Okay, but now we can go back and 510 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:45,900 using artificial intelligence using machine learning. 511 00:29:45,900 --> 00:29:50,500 We can, we can, we can capture things. 512 00:29:50,500 --> 00:29:54,200 Like, how do you use that car? When do you use that car? 513 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:59,100 We can, we can take that data. The things, the things that 514 00:29:59,100 --> 00:30:02,200 we're gaining, and we're collecting, or to collect about 515 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:04,800 the things that we're that are generated from the usage. 516 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:10,400 Of that feed that back into the relationship and extend the 517 00:30:11,500 --> 00:30:16,100 metadata around that relationship and then use that 518 00:30:16,100 --> 00:30:19,500 data for Access Control. It's interesting. 519 00:30:19,500 --> 00:30:23,800 So it's not just a, it's not not, I don't want to knock our 520 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,500 back or a back but it's not it all you want. 521 00:30:27,500 --> 00:30:32,600 Well, it's limited in that you you create a role and you have 522 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:35,400 access to X if you have this Roll. 523 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:39,400 But the, as the context changes, the roles. 524 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:41,300 Don't necessarily keep up with that short. 525 00:30:41,300 --> 00:30:44,900 You can, you can log out, log back in, get a different role. 526 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:52,000 But in real time, the context may change in that your again, 527 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,300 using that car example, you're driving at 50 miles, an hour or 528 00:30:55,300 --> 00:30:59,300 so, maybe the, maybe the, which you have access to needs to 529 00:30:59,300 --> 00:31:03,200 change, like, you shouldn't be accessing your phone. 530 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,800 Or you need to now, that's something, you know, in the car 531 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:10,600 or the radio or whatever it is, but it's being able to feed that 532 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:15,000 data back in and that data is becoming knowledge because it's, 533 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:19,300 you know, it's it's it's getting pulled from the the usage 534 00:31:19,300 --> 00:31:23,900 reading pulled from the, you know, the you know, machine on a 535 00:31:23,908 --> 00:31:27,000 machine Flores house that data, the data that's being collected 536 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,800 and and being able to augment that relationship that way and 537 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,600 then being able to have access to that, what's really cool 538 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,400 about it, is that This point because we work in identity, 539 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,500 we've only talked about the security aspects of that. 540 00:31:39,700 --> 00:31:42,900 Sure, we can create we can create access policies around 541 00:31:42,900 --> 00:31:46,300 that data. What's really interesting with 542 00:31:46,300 --> 00:31:53,600 this is that that data becomes a valuable tool for non security 543 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:58,200 organizations within a company. So if you have access, you know, 544 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:00,900 your work and your work in marketing or you work in 545 00:32:01,300 --> 00:32:04,800 business development or you work in whatever and you have access. 546 00:32:04,900 --> 00:32:07,100 That. So you have this, this this 547 00:32:07,100 --> 00:32:11,200 related data and and the the augmented content around that or 548 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:15,000 the augmented metadata around that are there new services that 549 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:16,400 you would offer to these customers? 550 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:18,800 Because now you can see that they're related and how they're 551 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,900 using the service. Are there new products that you 552 00:32:21,908 --> 00:32:23,500 would offer? Other new things that you could 553 00:32:23,500 --> 00:32:25,200 recommend to them? You know, are there? 554 00:32:25,300 --> 00:32:29,000 You know, I mean, kind of the world's the you're all this 555 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:30,200 data. What do you do with it, right? 556 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,500 It's like the sky's the limit and it sounds very much like 557 00:32:32,900 --> 00:32:37,200 this Nirvana, that marketing Ting and ecomp teams of 558 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,000 progressive profiling, right? You're building up this 559 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,500 knowledge, database around, who's visiting? 560 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:44,700 What are they doing? What are they interacting with? 561 00:32:44,700 --> 00:32:47,700 I mean, certainly privacy concerns come to mind, right? 562 00:32:47,700 --> 00:32:51,500 I think there's a lot of concern and probably rightly so over, 563 00:32:51,500 --> 00:32:54,700 you know, is the Facebook app. For example, listening to me, 564 00:32:54,900 --> 00:32:57,200 you know, when I'm not using it right, that that sort of thing, 565 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,200 what sort, you know, the data being collected cetera, the 566 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:04,500 controls that are in place there for the user to be able to 567 00:33:04,500 --> 00:33:06,500 manage Data. I would imagine it would be very 568 00:33:06,500 --> 00:33:08,400 robust but they also need to be user-friendly. 569 00:33:08,500 --> 00:33:14,700 Yeah, so we we are closely aligned with the web three 570 00:33:14,900 --> 00:33:18,200 Mantra or the the web, three, two components. 571 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:22,400 I should say, the components of web, 30 decentralized, self 572 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:27,500 Sovereign, that's huge. You know, we're we're one of the 573 00:33:27,500 --> 00:33:30,700 few organizations at this point that's building consent and at 574 00:33:30,700 --> 00:33:33,800 the beginning. So that it's a really important 575 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:35,500 step in actually, it's An afterthought. 576 00:33:35,500 --> 00:33:40,100 It it's usually shows. Notified. 577 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,200 Oh no, we have all this data analysis data would now we're 578 00:33:43,300 --> 00:33:46,400 it's no longer a benefit to have a state and also liability to 579 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,500 have this data. So, you know, we, we want to 580 00:33:49,500 --> 00:33:52,500 dress that up front so that if we are collecting the data, we 581 00:33:52,500 --> 00:33:55,500 are using the data or maybe we're just referencing the data. 582 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:59,700 The user has the ability to say you know what going back to the 583 00:33:59,700 --> 00:34:03,100 digital identity. Well these three properties or 584 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:07,800 you know these these It's, I'll share them with you, but only 585 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,199 for this week or only for this one time or only for whatever 586 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:16,699 and then being able to digitally sign the consent. 587 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:20,800 So that if somebody comes back later and says wait a second I 588 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,300 never I never consented to that you. 589 00:34:23,300 --> 00:34:26,800 We have that that audit Trail and it's digitally signed to say 590 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:32,100 well here you did, you know you did sign that the terms of 591 00:34:32,199 --> 00:34:34,699 whatever and then terms change through you sign this first? 592 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:36,199 Version. You didn't sign that version 593 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,400 having things like that because I think all of that ties into 594 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:43,800 the privacy and consent. And you know what you agreed, 595 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:49,800 what are the terms, you agreed to So, so going down a rat hole 596 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:52,900 with this knowledge base authentication, but I can see 597 00:34:52,900 --> 00:34:57,800 some real world use cases, like you're in an e-commerce portal. 598 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:01,800 Maybe you buy the membership that gets you. 599 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,300 The free shipping stuff like that. 600 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:08,400 Like, use a joint at the log back out to now, get permission 601 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:12,200 to that, it just has to be added to the profile. 602 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:16,300 What you have access to is now to tap into, maybe just A 603 00:35:16,300 --> 00:35:20,900 section or something like that. So, totally real world use cases 604 00:35:20,900 --> 00:35:24,400 are bound by think. And I mean, that example, it's a 605 00:35:24,408 --> 00:35:26,100 simple. As you create a relationship 606 00:35:26,100 --> 00:35:29,700 from from that, from what person's digital identity to 607 00:35:29,700 --> 00:35:33,700 that permission, or to that object or two that, whatever, 608 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,300 whatever it is. So you're not having to go back 609 00:35:36,300 --> 00:35:39,100 and say, okay, can you request someone to add this role? 610 00:35:39,100 --> 00:35:42,200 You're just the system is just creating that relationship and 611 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:44,200 you're, you know, you're moving, along an out. 612 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:46,800 Now that you have this new thing, That you're related to 613 00:35:47,100 --> 00:35:48,700 okay. Well, what comes along with that 614 00:35:48,700 --> 00:35:52,500 and being able to just just just roll with that, just just have a 615 00:35:52,500 --> 00:35:54,100 system that is just flows with that. 616 00:35:54,500 --> 00:35:57,100 I'm not going to bore to see where this goes because I think 617 00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:00,200 obviously the I see the, I see the promise of it. 618 00:36:00,300 --> 00:36:03,000 I'd like to see it in action and sort of like the real world. 619 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:04,600 Oh, yeah. And see how it works and works 620 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:06,600 through. But I know we're running out of 621 00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:08,900 time and we want to let make make sure that you can get out 622 00:36:08,900 --> 00:36:12,300 on the town and enjoy yourself. But before we go, we were kind 623 00:36:12,300 --> 00:36:14,100 of talking before we hit the record button here. 624 00:36:14,500 --> 00:36:18,500 And we got into the Concept of, you know, what would it take to 625 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,400 walk away from something? And for those who are familiar 626 00:36:22,900 --> 00:36:25,600 with the other, the term is f you money. 627 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:28,700 I won't spell it out here but you can look it up and it's 628 00:36:28,700 --> 00:36:31,000 inspired by our friend. Mike would burn. 629 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,600 And here's my question, as we wrap things up for today, what 630 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:37,400 is your F? Your, what is your number when 631 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:39,200 it comes to Fu money? Me a little walk away from 632 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:41,700 things. So, I want to be able to just 633 00:36:41,700 --> 00:36:43,900 say the number and then, you know that you guys are gonna be, 634 00:36:43,900 --> 00:36:45,700 like, here's the chat. Here's the Giants. 635 00:36:45,900 --> 00:36:50,900 I'll check, check under your seat, better luck next time. 636 00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:55,000 That's a tough question and I know you're just looking for the 637 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:56,600 short answer saw. Just I'm just going to say a 638 00:36:56,607 --> 00:37:00,300 number but there's there's a lot of caveats to this say, my 639 00:37:00,300 --> 00:37:04,900 number is somewhere between 10 and 20 million, 10, and 20 640 00:37:04,900 --> 00:37:06,100 million. I could do that yourself. 641 00:37:06,100 --> 00:37:08,700 That's kind of a cool. That's a much higher number than 642 00:37:08,700 --> 00:37:11,600 I was impressed. So first of all, I want to give 643 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,700 you a little bit of background so Mike would burn is one of my 644 00:37:14,700 --> 00:37:18,200 favorite people. Not only died imagery but in the 645 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:20,500 world I know he listens to the podcast. 646 00:37:20,500 --> 00:37:23,300 So shout out Mike, you know. Yeah shout out of Mike and you 647 00:37:23,300 --> 00:37:28,100 can send your check right to me but I wanted to tell the story 648 00:37:28,100 --> 00:37:34,300 so I went to Maui and like 2012 and came back and was like I 649 00:37:34,300 --> 00:37:38,700 want to move to Maui then Financial reality set in and got 650 00:37:38,700 --> 00:37:40,900 back to life and never move to Maui. 651 00:37:41,300 --> 00:37:47,900 I met Mike let's say 2015, 2016 time frame, And makes it I'm 652 00:37:47,900 --> 00:37:50,200 going to visit. Maui is like Mike when you come 653 00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:53,400 back you're going to say I want to move to Maui and then you 654 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:55,100 will never do it. Okay. 655 00:37:55,100 --> 00:37:57,400 Yeah, right. So he goes to Maui because well 656 00:37:57,400 --> 00:37:59,500 he's like I want to move to Maui. 657 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:03,300 Well those who know Mike would burn know that he actually did 658 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:08,900 actually follow through with it. Oh yeah and so that was I think 659 00:38:08,900 --> 00:38:13,300 Mike is a smart guy many ways and obviously had his financing 660 00:38:13,300 --> 00:38:17,000 set up in a way that he was able to actually make it happen. 661 00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:23,500 So to me the fu money answer is not a firm dollar figure but 662 00:38:23,500 --> 00:38:28,200 it's about how much annual expenses I had covered. 663 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,700 And that would need to have like a Year's worth of expenses. 664 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:36,800 In the bank, the annual expenses part, unfortunately goes up 665 00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:40,900 every year, right? So this year, I'm not going to 666 00:38:40,900 --> 00:38:45,400 put a number out there because it's not important, but it will 667 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:48,900 be more Sure. And the reason I say one year 668 00:38:48,900 --> 00:38:53,700 because it's kind of like to me it's like not me saying F you do 669 00:38:53,700 --> 00:38:56,800 the world, it's just being able to say all right well I'm going 670 00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:01,300 to go do something else and you know might take me a year to do 671 00:39:01,300 --> 00:39:06,200 it but you know today's my last day kind of kind of thing, not 672 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:09,900 that I actually ever see myself pulling that trigger but that 673 00:39:09,900 --> 00:39:12,300 whole question I heard you got Mike I said I'm right front of 674 00:39:12,300 --> 00:39:15,200 my boss right? So yeah. 675 00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:18,300 Anyway That's I like that answer now. 676 00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:21,700 I feel like it a lot of people here that question and you're 677 00:39:21,700 --> 00:39:24,400 instantly. Thank, you know, in a what 678 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,200 number would it take for me to throw my laptop on the ground 679 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:29,000 and walk out? And, you know, do you like a 680 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:33,500 Jerry Maguire? But it's it's really about the 681 00:39:33,500 --> 00:39:37,500 freedom to make the choices like what question people ask all the 682 00:39:37,500 --> 00:39:39,800 time. This, what would you do if you 683 00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:43,600 knew you couldn't fail and to me that those two are tied together 684 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:47,000 because this that's really what fu That's a really about. 685 00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:51,100 It's what, what, what, what, what can I say, no to what? 686 00:39:51,100 --> 00:39:54,500 Choices, you know, it's like I'm making, you know, I would 687 00:39:54,500 --> 00:39:57,600 probably continue working. If I had, if I had the, you 688 00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:01,000 know, my whatever that number is, you know, I would continue 689 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:02,800 working because I like what I do. 690 00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:08,300 So wouldn't necessarily be about, you know, like know, tell 691 00:40:08,300 --> 00:40:11,500 everyone to get off. No, it's I think it's, you know, 692 00:40:11,500 --> 00:40:16,300 it's the, the crude way to be able to work on what You want to 693 00:40:16,300 --> 00:40:21,200 work and pass on the things. You don't ya, well into not to 694 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:23,400 make this all about like would burn because this is all about 695 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:28,700 me. But, you know, Mike having 696 00:40:28,700 --> 00:40:33,200 talked to Mike. I know that he makes choices, 697 00:40:33,300 --> 00:40:39,800 you know, like, you know, you, I go and buy a car, or I go by buy 698 00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:41,800 a house. And I go by this and I have, you 699 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:45,700 know, this is a reference from, like, but I have 15 streaming. 700 00:40:45,900 --> 00:40:48,700 Services, you know, well, all of this costs money, but I'm making 701 00:40:48,700 --> 00:40:52,800 those choices. You don't have to have a ton of 702 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:56,100 money to live the lifestyle you want to have you just have to 703 00:40:56,100 --> 00:41:00,300 make the right choices to be able to do that and you know 704 00:41:00,300 --> 00:41:04,400 like the lifestyle of the the choices that Mike and he also 705 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:07,400 has the ability to go in like someone describes their project 706 00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:10,500 and was like, yeah, we're going to will throw money at you and 707 00:41:10,500 --> 00:41:13,000 still be able to go and no, I'm not going to work. 708 00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,700 I'm not going to spend my life force energy. 709 00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:18,200 On that because I don't believe in what you're doing. 710 00:41:18,300 --> 00:41:21,300 You're making a stupid decision. I'm just not doing that. 711 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:25,400 Yeah, well I think that the key is like, it's, it's at what 712 00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:28,100 point in your life are you, are you comfortable saying no to 713 00:41:28,100 --> 00:41:32,000 people and not having the fear of, you know, worst-case 714 00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:33,800 scenario. So what I started out 715 00:41:33,900 --> 00:41:37,000 Consulting, you know, the thing that my wife and I would say is 716 00:41:37,300 --> 00:41:40,100 worst-case scenario. I just go get a job, you know, 717 00:41:40,100 --> 00:41:42,500 and it's like, that's how I felt, that's how I got to 718 00:41:42,508 --> 00:41:43,500 consult. He's like, you know what, I'm 719 00:41:43,500 --> 00:41:45,700 gonna give it a shot, I can always go. 720 00:41:45,900 --> 00:41:49,300 Back to, you know, being a civilian and not a consultant 721 00:41:49,300 --> 00:41:50,500 and you know whatever it might be. 722 00:41:50,900 --> 00:41:52,900 That was exactly what I thought. It was like those are better 723 00:41:52,900 --> 00:41:58,900 time, I felt confident enough in my abilities, my network my 724 00:41:58,900 --> 00:42:02,000 reputation. That if I went into this and 725 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:06,300 either I failed at it, because I wasn't good at it, or I didn't 726 00:42:06,300 --> 00:42:10,000 like it, I could pivot and go back to what I knew that was 727 00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:12,800 successful at. Yeah, and I think what you hit 728 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:14,400 on it. There's it's having the 729 00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:17,100 confidence. To be able to do that. 730 00:42:17,500 --> 00:42:19,100 Yeah. Well, let's bring it back to 731 00:42:19,100 --> 00:42:21,700 Gartner because really, what's your number? 732 00:42:22,700 --> 00:42:25,300 Good question. It's probably pretty high 733 00:42:25,300 --> 00:42:31,400 because I like nice things. I am a consumer, certainly of a 734 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:34,100 bunch of different Services. I mean, I could I get by I'm 735 00:42:34,100 --> 00:42:37,000 lower number. Probably do I want to know. 736 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:41,100 Could you clean your own house? I have got many things to do, 737 00:42:41,300 --> 00:42:43,700 you know, I don't know. That's certainly one of my 738 00:42:43,700 --> 00:42:45,400 guilty pleasures. It's like cleaning service. 739 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:48,000 But enough of my first world problems, I would say I'm 740 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:51,300 probably somewhere in the same area, 10 to 20 million. 741 00:42:51,300 --> 00:42:55,500 Let's just say, because I feel like I like what I do I do this 742 00:42:55,500 --> 00:42:58,800 podcast because I like to do it the work that I do and identity 743 00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,200 is a consultant. And, you know, now, leading and 744 00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:02,900 identity, practice and building it up, right? 745 00:43:02,900 --> 00:43:05,600 You're building it with me. I like doing that. 746 00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:09,800 It's fun for me. When it's no longer fun, or the, 747 00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:12,500 you know, the cons outweigh the pros. 748 00:43:13,100 --> 00:43:14,800 That's when I look for something else, right? 749 00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:18,600 It's a As that I will work until I can't work anymore. 750 00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:20,700 That's the way I look at it. You know what? 751 00:43:20,700 --> 00:43:23,400 I like to do nothing. Yeah, probably great for what 752 00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:24,900 I'm under a little while. Yeah. 753 00:43:24,900 --> 00:43:27,400 And then I get bored and I was like, I need to do something, 754 00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:29,300 right? So that's kind of how I look at 755 00:43:29,300 --> 00:43:30,900 it, you know, there's, there's a number. 756 00:43:31,100 --> 00:43:34,400 Let's just say, you know, x million, this point du du du 757 00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:37,000 where we are from the economy, but that doesn't mean that I 758 00:43:37,008 --> 00:43:38,900 stopped working. It's, I'm going to go do 759 00:43:38,900 --> 00:43:40,700 something right. There's only so many streaming 760 00:43:40,700 --> 00:43:42,000 services. You can watch right. 761 00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:44,500 Maybe I'll create a new one. All right. 762 00:43:44,500 --> 00:43:45,600 Well, I want to bring back to Gartner. 763 00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:48,700 Oh Because one of the things that came up in this just why we 764 00:43:48,700 --> 00:43:51,500 were asking The Catcher in the question here, was, it started 765 00:43:51,500 --> 00:43:54,900 off with Mary mazzaglia, when she opened things up on the 766 00:43:54,900 --> 00:43:59,800 opening keynote and it was she talked about the, the 767 00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:02,500 generational divides and the people who are in the workforce 768 00:44:02,500 --> 00:44:05,600 now, you know, younger folks versus the older folks. 769 00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:09,400 And, you know, I think everyone in this room is probably more on 770 00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:13,400 the ladder side and we didn't talk politics religion, Etc. 771 00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:18,300 Didn't have public stands. As in the workplace and now you 772 00:44:18,300 --> 00:44:22,100 know the the younger folks are expecting to have some sort of 773 00:44:22,100 --> 00:44:25,300 position on things like that. And I think being able to have 774 00:44:25,300 --> 00:44:28,500 that that discussion say yeah. Here's what I want to work on 775 00:44:28,500 --> 00:44:32,100 and here's why that's inspiring, right? 776 00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:34,700 No one wants to work on a project that they don't like 777 00:44:34,700 --> 00:44:37,400 they don't want want to do. They don't want to work for a 778 00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:41,200 team or a leader or a company that they don't support right. 779 00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:43,000 Those sorts of things. So I think it's important to 780 00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:46,000 even if it's not a number, I think the question is Our to 781 00:44:46,008 --> 00:44:48,900 say, okay well, what is my intention here? 782 00:44:48,900 --> 00:44:50,900 Am I doing what I want to be doing whether it's in the 783 00:44:50,900 --> 00:44:52,800 identity field or anything else, really? 784 00:44:53,500 --> 00:44:55,800 I think it's I think we've come kind of Full Circle. 785 00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:58,500 We start with, you know, Gartner 9 a.m. on a Monday and here we 786 00:44:58,500 --> 00:45:02,600 are, you know, local time five around 5 p.m. on the Wednesday. 787 00:45:02,700 --> 00:45:05,800 Yeah yeah I think it's um I think it's interesting. 788 00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:10,100 I've two young adult children and they're on the cusp of the 789 00:45:10,100 --> 00:45:13,400 rest of the rest of their lives and their, my daughter just 790 00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:15,900 finished her Nursing degree. So she started out Out and 791 00:45:15,900 --> 00:45:20,100 professional world and to see the choices that they make and 792 00:45:20,100 --> 00:45:25,200 what's important to them. I mean, it wasn't it's it's only 793 00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:29,500 a few Generations separating, you know, my daughter from my 794 00:45:29,500 --> 00:45:33,200 grandparents to where my grandparents were like, you go 795 00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:34,800 to work. You do what you're told. 796 00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:38,100 You spend 25 years there, you get your watch and that's it. 797 00:45:38,100 --> 00:45:40,100 What, what questions do you have? 798 00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:44,500 And I think that younger people today have choices. 799 00:45:44,500 --> 00:45:48,000 There's not just One big company in town that you have to go work 800 00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:49,300 for. So you better not, you know, 801 00:45:49,300 --> 00:45:52,600 embarrass yourself. They've got the freedom to make 802 00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:54,300 choices. They have freedom to make 803 00:45:54,300 --> 00:45:56,800 mistakes. I don't necessarily agree with 804 00:45:56,800 --> 00:45:59,400 living out your all your mistakes in life on social 805 00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:01,200 media. But, you know, that's, that's, 806 00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:03,300 that's, that's their world today. 807 00:46:04,500 --> 00:46:06,900 You know, I think that the world, I think people are much 808 00:46:06,900 --> 00:46:10,200 more health-conscious. They're much more 809 00:46:10,300 --> 00:46:14,800 environmentally conscious and so, it's wouldn't be fair to 810 00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:19,100 say, well, Well you can't bring yourself to work, you know, you 811 00:46:19,100 --> 00:46:23,000 can't bring who you are. So you know I think that thought 812 00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:26,100 when you can do that, that's when you found the place. 813 00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:28,300 Yeah. If when you can be yourself and 814 00:46:28,300 --> 00:46:31,400 I've been in positions where I don't feel like I can be myself 815 00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:35,300 and others where I can and it makes the world of difference in 816 00:46:35,300 --> 00:46:38,200 how happy you are, which then has a, you know, an impact on 817 00:46:38,207 --> 00:46:40,800 the quality of the work and you're just general demeanor. 818 00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:45,300 And you know, it sounds like you know, silly you know. 819 00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:49,400 Don't die advice. But if you're not happy, go find 820 00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:50,700 something that will make me happy. 821 00:46:51,900 --> 00:46:54,500 All right. We've wax poetic and I know you 822 00:46:54,500 --> 00:46:55,600 want. I know you're like it. 823 00:46:55,600 --> 00:47:00,000 I'm like so I think it's kind of ironic because I have been 824 00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:03,900 thinking about this last two days and it's kind of like, 825 00:47:03,900 --> 00:47:06,600 okay. Our generation was attacking 826 00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:09,200 this the wrong way, right? We're not supposed to talk about 827 00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:14,700 these things, but imagine the scenario now where on one hand 828 00:47:14,700 --> 00:47:17,200 were supposed to talk about About all these things that have 829 00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:20,500 been taboo to talk about and on the other hand you're not 830 00:47:20,500 --> 00:47:22,900 allowed to judge anybody based on their opinion. 831 00:47:22,900 --> 00:47:27,500 So let's say one person's like got very far left. 832 00:47:27,500 --> 00:47:32,000 Using somebody elses very far right fuse and they have to work 833 00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:34,500 together, right? Their views on things, outside 834 00:47:34,500 --> 00:47:38,500 of the workplace, really aren't relevant, right? 835 00:47:38,500 --> 00:47:43,200 And you know whether or not you believe then, you know, the 836 00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:46,500 environment should be perfect or you just think That or people 837 00:47:46,500 --> 00:47:48,700 should be able to do whatever they want to do. 838 00:47:49,500 --> 00:47:53,800 Whether you think that you should eat meat or you love, 839 00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:57,300 you're a foodie and you love to eat like the most exotic foods. 840 00:47:57,700 --> 00:48:01,200 Like this aren't really relevant discussions for the workplace, 841 00:48:01,300 --> 00:48:04,000 right? And whether whatever you like to 842 00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:07,000 do in your free time as kind of none of my business. 843 00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:12,300 What you practice for a religion or how you like to spend your 844 00:48:12,300 --> 00:48:17,000 weekends? Not my business and What what I 845 00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:20,600 do on the weekends and what God I pray to our don't pray to, 846 00:48:21,100 --> 00:48:22,800 it's really none of your business either. 847 00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:29,300 So I get getting on. Yeah, I'm getting choked up 848 00:48:30,300 --> 00:48:33,900 who's going with that. But I think it's we're living in 849 00:48:33,900 --> 00:48:36,900 a world where it's really not appropriate to be judging 850 00:48:36,900 --> 00:48:39,800 people. And, you know, the best way to 851 00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:43,400 not judge was really not to engage in conversation. 852 00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:46,700 I could become very polarized. Sure, well, I think that's 853 00:48:46,700 --> 00:48:50,100 another form of identity, you know, it's the more of the, the 854 00:48:50,100 --> 00:48:56,900 psychological, the, the Freud or the each version of identity. 855 00:48:56,900 --> 00:49:02,200 It's and people People get wrapped up in. 856 00:49:02,700 --> 00:49:06,400 This is my identity, this football team is my identity. 857 00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:11,400 This this this car you know this type of the type of truck. 858 00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:14,500 I drive is my identity, you know, and they get wrapped up in 859 00:49:14,500 --> 00:49:16,600 that. And so they have to have to show 860 00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:18,700 that because this is my identity, this is, you know, and 861 00:49:18,700 --> 00:49:21,300 it's a, it's, it makes them feel better. 862 00:49:21,300 --> 00:49:23,800 It makes them feel more secure in who they are. 863 00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:27,400 And they, you know, work is, you know, I spent, I spent eight or 864 00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:31,100 nine hours a day at work. I have to bring my And you know, 865 00:49:31,100 --> 00:49:34,700 if you can put your if you can put your Pittsburgh Penguins 866 00:49:34,700 --> 00:49:38,600 post-iraq, then I'm going to put a twice twice as big, Washington 867 00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:42,900 Capitals poster up and you know, you start bringing this to work 868 00:49:42,900 --> 00:49:47,400 and I think that it does. Some of that does unnecessarily 869 00:49:47,500 --> 00:49:50,500 draw attention to those things. I think that, you know, like we 870 00:49:50,500 --> 00:49:54,100 said earlier, you should be, people should free be free to be 871 00:49:54,100 --> 00:49:57,800 themselves, but there are things that, you know, there's things 872 00:49:57,800 --> 00:49:59,300 you bring along that you don't have to. 873 00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:04,000 That I think sort of make it, you know, complicate the work 874 00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:07,000 environment. I'm personally I just am like on 875 00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:10,500 the I want to go to work and I don't have pictures on my on my 876 00:50:10,500 --> 00:50:12,800 desk and, you know, let me do my job and then, you know, I'm 877 00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:15,600 going to leave after I'm done working and I'm going to go with 878 00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:18,500 my life and do the things that I like and the things that are my 879 00:50:18,500 --> 00:50:22,700 identity and the things that are are fun fun to me, just be nice. 880 00:50:22,700 --> 00:50:25,300 That's all I have to say. All right, let's wrap it up. 881 00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:28,900 It was very philosophically. I think that was, that was fun. 882 00:50:29,900 --> 00:50:31,500 We'll go ahead and leave it there for this week. 883 00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:35,200 We will put a link to indicate in our show notes. 884 00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:38,400 It's IND. Why kitv.com? 885 00:50:38,700 --> 00:50:41,200 Thank you so much, Brad, finally, great to meet in person 886 00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:42,700 versus emails and things like that. 887 00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:45,700 If you've got questions about Unity kite, will have breads 888 00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:47,800 LinkedIn in the show notes as well. 889 00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:50,300 So reach out to him and get some information. 890 00:50:50,300 --> 00:50:51,800 I think you've got an interesting story there, 891 00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:53,500 anything I'm curious to see how it plays out. 892 00:50:53,500 --> 00:50:55,600 I hope to hope to continue the conversation. 893 00:50:55,600 --> 00:50:59,600 I hope you have any back you know, somewhere in the Near 894 00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:03,100 future and I can give you an update and kind of tell you how 895 00:51:03,100 --> 00:51:08,000 things are progressing. And if you'll have me, if I 896 00:51:08,008 --> 00:51:11,100 wasn't too bad, then I'd love to come back and of course more 897 00:51:11,100 --> 00:51:12,600 about it. The door is always open. 898 00:51:12,900 --> 00:51:15,300 All right, we're going to leave it there for this week or weeks 899 00:51:15,300 --> 00:51:17,100 for this episode. We were just kind of here at the 900 00:51:17,100 --> 00:51:18,900 Gartner episodes are a gardener a conference. 901 00:51:19,500 --> 00:51:22,900 I didn't the center.com is where you find us on the web, idac 902 00:51:22,900 --> 00:51:26,000 podcast is where you find us on Twitter, tweet us questions, 903 00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:28,600 connect with us on LinkedIn. We're always happy to take 904 00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:30,200 comments feedback. I could cetera. 905 00:51:30,500 --> 00:51:32,100 Whatever. Makes the most sense, get it to 906 00:51:32,100 --> 00:51:34,000 us and we can take it from there. 907 00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:36,900 So thanks everyone for listening. 908 00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:38,700 And we'll talk with you all in the next one. 909 00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:45,300 Thanks for listening to the identity at the center podcast. 910 00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:47,700 If you like what you heard, don't forget to subscribe and 911 00:51:47,700 --> 00:51:50,800 visit us on the web and identity at the center.com.