1 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:10,440 This is identity at the center. If it has anything to do with 2 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:17,960 IAM, this is the go to podcast now your hosts Jim McDonald and 3 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:23,200 Jeff Stedman. Welcome to the Identity at the 4 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:25,200 Center podcast. I'm Jeff and that's Jim. 5 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:27,200 Hey, Jim. Hey, Jeff, how are you? 6 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:30,360 Oh, not so bad yourself. Good, man. 7 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:32,720 We've been podcasting fools lately. 8 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:36,720 I feel like every day we we're on this platform recording or 9 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:39,800 meeting with folks. And I mean, I love it, don't get 10 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:42,880 me wrong. But yeah, spending a lot of time 11 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:45,840 with you lately, Jeff. Oh, the keyword there is fool. 12 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:48,800 That's for sure. A couple of fools doing this. 13 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:51,760 No, I mean, I think this is, you know, this is how we start the 14 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:52,880 year. We end the year. 15 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:56,760 It's like this mad rush to kind of get stuff in place before you 16 00:00:56,760 --> 00:00:59,960 and I disappear for a couple of weeks of, you know, well earned 17 00:00:59,960 --> 00:01:02,760 time off and then trying to hit the ground running and then, you 18 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:05,440 know, all that stuff. But I'll highlight the word 19 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:06,200 again. Fools. 20 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,800 That's what we are. Yeah, well, you know, I one of 21 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:12,520 the things that I always like to do is like watch your 22 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:14,760 background. So we're an audio only podcast, 23 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:19,040 but Jeff has the coolest background at home with his, I 24 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:23,920 guess office or studio. You've got like ATV set up and 25 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:27,160 you've got, I think it's like screen savers running on it, but 26 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:30,320 always very cool. Today you're at a hotel, your 27 00:01:30,320 --> 00:01:34,880 background is the hotel door and they've got the the fire escape 28 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:38,960 placard and usually on that placard is what the nightly rate 29 00:01:38,960 --> 00:01:41,280 is. If you don't have a, you know, a 30 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:45,240 discount code or something like that, it's like Comfort Inn 450 31 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:48,360 bucks a night. Yeah, today's show coming to 32 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:52,600 live from a Residence Inn in Plymouth, MN up in the frozen 33 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:55,080 tundra. And I believe the rate kind of 34 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:57,920 for me to see from here is like 349 at night, which actually 35 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:00,640 isn't too bad. I've seen absolutely ridiculous 36 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:03,440 hotel rates in the cities and things like that where you're 37 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:07,440 you're into 4 digits for sure. Yeah, I'll bet it's cold there 38 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:09,639 now. It's only going to get colder 39 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,520 though. Yeah, not so bad 27°. 40 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:14,960 Those are rookie numbers. We got a We don't really pump 41 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:16,800 those up, right. You want those lower, I guess in 42 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:20,000 this case, but not too cold yet. I'm going to go out and hit some 43 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:23,560 top Golf tonight. Yes, in freezing weather. 44 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:25,240 I'm curious to see how it's going to work. 45 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:29,040 I believe we have heat, you know, fans that should should be 46 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:30,040 running. So hopefully that would be a 47 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:32,040 good time. We're actually going to, I'm 48 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:33,960 actually going out to meet our friend Tom Sheffield who's been 49 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:37,880 on this show tonight, so that'd be good times. 50 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:40,680 Yeah, from Target. That would explain the the 51 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:43,080 Minnesota piece. Yes it does. 52 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:46,680 Yeah, no, he's a good guy, man. I'd hope that he had him back on 53 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:49,360 the show. Yes, maybe. 54 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:52,040 That's maybe he will make a wager on golf tonight or 55 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:56,400 something. If whoever wins, give me a son 56 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:58,880 to come back on. If he loses, he has to come back 57 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:01,240 on the show that. What does that tell you about 58 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:02,040 the show, Jeff? It? 59 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:05,400 Doesn't tell me anything. How about that? 60 00:03:05,640 --> 00:03:09,360 Actually he and I were talking at Authenticate last year and 61 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:13,400 he's working on his new sort of presentation for this year. 62 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:16,440 So I think last time I talked I was like, hey, you know, once 63 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:18,240 you come on the show and kind of work it out, once you've got 64 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:21,520 sort of the framework in place and you know go from there. 65 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:24,080 So Tom, true listening, looking forward to get you back on here 66 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:26,200 and looking forward to seeing seeing you tonight. 67 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:29,800 Yeah, Well, I'm excited about today's episode. 68 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:34,520 This is a long time coming and I'm really honored to have this 69 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:37,720 guest on our show. You want to go ahead and do your 70 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:42,280 normal introduce introduction. Yeah, let's get Phil Windley on 71 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:44,640 the on the line here. He's a Senior Software 72 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:46,880 Development Manager at AWS Identity. 73 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:49,600 He's also a Co founder and organizer of the Internet 74 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:52,920 Identity Workshop. Welcome to the show, Phil. 75 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:55,240 Hey, thanks. It's great to be here. 76 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:58,440 I've listened to a number of episodes and I'm excited to be a 77 00:03:58,440 --> 00:03:59,880 guest. Yeah. 78 00:03:59,880 --> 00:04:02,040 Well, thanks for taking the time here and joining us. 79 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:05,080 I know you're a very busy guy. You got a lot of different, I 80 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:09,120 guess, identity frying pans on the stove that you're probably 81 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:11,360 cooking with. One of the things that we like 82 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:14,040 to figure out though, is how people get into this world of 83 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:16,760 identity. How did you get into the 84 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:18,480 identity and access management space? 85 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:21,959 Is it something that you chose or did it choose you? 86 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:28,360 In the early 2000s, 2001, 2002, I was the CIO for the state of 87 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:30,200 Utah under Governor Mike Leavitt. 88 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:37,360 And when I was done doing that and was doing some consulting, a 89 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:42,800 friend of mine, Doug Kay, had written a book on web services. 90 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:44,800 And I thought that was kind of cool. 91 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:47,960 So I was just talking to him about, hey, how'd you write a 92 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:50,360 book, what you do? And he said, well, you should 93 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:51,880 write a book on digital identity. 94 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:55,560 The world needs one. And I said, Doug, I don't know 95 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:59,200 anything about digital identity. And he said, no, you do just 96 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:02,840 think about everything you did as CIO, and it's probably 97 00:05:02,840 --> 00:05:06,080 Digital Identity. And, you know, as I thought 98 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:07,680 about it, sure enough, he was right. 99 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:13,960 I ended up writing a book that was published in 2005 called 100 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:20,160 Digital Identity from O'Reilly. And if you know anything about 101 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:23,640 2005 was a little bit of a watershed year in Identity. 102 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:29,640 It's when, well first of all Web 2 dot O was a big thing. 103 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:34,240 People were worried about how do we get access to AP is for, you 104 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:39,480 know, everybody's stuff. Before that the world had 105 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:42,600 primarily been kind of centralized identity systems. 106 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:46,520 I built them right. Organizations ran you know 107 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:50,600 directories or whatever in order to manage their identities, but 108 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:53,880 so, so, so the book is primarily about that. 109 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:57,400 It's primarily about his kind of centralized directory based 110 00:05:57,440 --> 00:05:59,400 identity. You know, how do you do that? 111 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:03,400 But, but the world changed in 2005 and people started talking 112 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:05,280 about identity in different ways. 113 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:11,400 And because I was writing a book, I got included on lots of 114 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:18,600 interesting conversations in the January 31st, I mean December 115 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:24,640 31st day year's eve, 2004. Steve Gilmore, who is, you know, 116 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:28,080 something of a legend and and Podcasting circles had done, 117 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:31,520 he's doing a good Gilmore Gang and he's still doing Gilmore 118 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:35,680 Gang 20 years later. He did this thing that people 119 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:40,120 came to call the Identity Gang. So it was a he had like 30 120 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:42,440 people on and you know, his podcast host. 121 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:48,560 You can probably imagine the sheer just, you know, cacophony 122 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:51,120 it brings. Terror to my eye, my ears. 123 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:54,520 Just thinking about 30. Yes, on a single podcast, right? 124 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:59,000 But anyway, it was all about identity and after that was 125 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:04,120 over, Doc Searles who was also on it and I were talking and we 126 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:06,800 were saying, you know, the world needs a conference to talk about 127 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:12,400 this kind of new user centric identity Vibe. 128 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:14,040 You know what what people are doing. 129 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:17,400 I don't think we said vibe in 2004, but that was, you know, 130 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:21,320 that was the idea. And so we decided that we would. 131 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:28,880 We wanted to do a conference, and so we set out to do 132 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:31,800 something called Internet Identity Workshop. 133 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:36,800 We failed. We we went to have the first one 134 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:40,400 in the spring of 2005. Just couldn't get it together. 135 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:45,320 Just wasn't working. But we were still interested. 136 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:50,160 Still trying to figure it out. Doc ran into a woman named Kalia 137 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:53,680 Young at a Giants game. They were both there as part of 138 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:55,640 some conference. I don't know what conference it 139 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:59,520 was. And they started talking and Doc 140 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:01,840 was mentioning that, oh, we ought to do this. 141 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:04,600 We we want to do this workshop. And she said, oh, I could help 142 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:07,400 you with that. And that was kind of the, you 143 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:10,720 know, the little bit of extra magic sauce that it took to 144 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:14,320 actually get it off the ground. So we have the first Internet 145 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:19,040 identity workshop in the fall of 2005 at the Hillside Club in 146 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:22,760 Berkeley, CA, about 70 people there. 147 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:27,840 And what we did was we pulled together people who were doing 148 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:32,679 what was called what was Uri based identifiers. 149 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:37,679 And there were four of them. There was Dick Hart was doing 150 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:41,760 something called Skip. Johannes Ernst was doing 151 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:48,280 something called Lid Drummond. Reed had something called XRI 152 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:54,320 and the folks at Live Journal, David Ricardon and Brad 153 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:57,960 Fitzpatrick, we're doing something called Open ID. 154 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:03,960 And we thought, hey, this will solve the identity problem. 155 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:05,920 Let's get all these folks together. 156 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:10,120 We'll figure out how to create a single protocol for Uri based 157 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:14,000 identifiers and then we can all go off and do the other things 158 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:15,800 we want to do that are not identity. 159 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:22,120 And of course, as you guys know, we just held the 37th Internet 160 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:24,800 Identity Workshop kind of last October. 161 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:27,560 So we didn't go off and do other things. 162 00:09:27,560 --> 00:09:30,840 We just kept doing identity over and over and over again. 163 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:33,240 And so I've been doing that, you know, since then. 164 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:35,880 Digital Identity's kind of been my thing. 165 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:39,240 You know, just wrote another book for O'Reilly called 166 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:43,000 Learning Digital Identity. And so that's how I got into and 167 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:46,080 kind of have been growing through digital identity over 168 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:48,400 the years. And Jim's been probably showing 169 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:51,720 that book off on on the camera here whenever he possibly gets 170 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:56,000 the chance. I gotta so I think you said 37 171 00:09:56,000 --> 00:10:00,080 different iiws so far and this was in 2005. 172 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,360 The numbers don't add up unless you're doing more than twice. 173 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:03,080 A year? Yeah. 174 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:06,000 OK, that's twice a year. Once in the spring, once in the 175 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:06,960 fall. Gotcha. 176 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:11,200 So I've never been to an IOW. Who's this conference for? 177 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:12,840 I guess What do people get out of it? 178 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:15,680 Is it a bunch of big brain identity people? 179 00:10:15,680 --> 00:10:18,440 Can I go as a noob in the identity world? 180 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:23,360 Like, what's the show? Any given I, I WI think it's 181 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:29,120 probably about 60% people who've been there before and about 40% 182 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:31,600 who are new coming for the first time. 183 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:35,680 Yeah, And so. So no, you don't. 184 00:10:35,680 --> 00:10:39,040 You don't have to necessarily be, you know, part of the 185 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:42,400 identity as people sometimes call it. 186 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:49,960 But who is the conference for? It's for whatever you want to do 187 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:55,600 because IIW is what uses what we call open space technology. 188 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:58,840 Basically, it's a non conference, so you can come and 189 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:01,000 talk about literally anything you want. 190 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:04,920 If you want to have a session on the best guitar chords for 191 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:09,240 singing Christmas songs, you're welcome to come to IIW and talk 192 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:11,520 about that. And whoever's interested in the 193 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:15,880 best guitar chords for Christmas songs will come in to your 194 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:18,480 session. But what do the sessions 195 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:23,000 primarily focus on? They primarily have focused on 196 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:29,680 things like protocols, solving new identity problems, product 197 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:33,200 and how do we get adoption for these new protocols, how do we 198 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:37,120 make things work. So I mentioned that we brought 199 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:43,520 the first group together to kind of do these URAURL based 200 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:48,200 identifiers and they all became Open ID, right. 201 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:52,280 So Open ID as we know it is not the original live journal Open 202 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:55,160 ID. They lent the name and some of 203 00:11:55,160 --> 00:12:01,320 their ideas, skip XRI lid all lit ideas to the whole thing. 204 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:06,680 Other people lent ideas and the first version V1 of the Open ID 205 00:12:06,680 --> 00:12:08,920 specification was kind of what came out of that. 206 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:17,760 That happened at IIW. OS is an outgrowth of Iowa Open 207 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:22,600 IDV 2 or Open ID Connect. Now, Iowa is not the only place 208 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:25,640 people have worked on these, but that's what people do, right, As 209 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:29,400 they come to Iowa and have sessions on solving this 210 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:34,160 particular problem, right. You'll have sessions on Skim and 211 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:40,120 yeah, IGA, I mean you name an identity topic or protocol and 212 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:41,960 people will be hosting sessions on that. 213 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:44,000 And if they aren't, you can call one. 214 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:45,520 You don't even have to be the expert. 215 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:49,480 You can just say, hey, I am really interested in knowing how 216 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:54,200 we can use Open ID Connect in the Internet of Things and I 217 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:56,080 don't know anything about it, Please come and teach me. 218 00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:58,360 People will come and run your session for you. 219 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:02,000 So that's how IW works, and that's the kind of sessions that 220 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:05,800 get held. We had Clea Young on the show a 221 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:08,360 few episodes back, #248, for those interested. 222 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:11,640 And she kind of described this. She's the same word, the UN 223 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:14,240 conference, right? And I think I've seen pictures 224 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:17,800 on the Internet, of course of, you know, people writing a topic 225 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:21,160 and they just stick it up on a board and then people either 226 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:24,080 attach themselves to it or they say, you know, it's like go to 227 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:25,720 this room if you're interested in this thing. 228 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:28,400 Is it really like that where people just? 229 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:30,080 Really kind of confront exactly like that. 230 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:33,320 So we have. So every day we have a grid, 231 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:37,440 right? And the grid is vertical 232 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,080 columns, different session rooms, rows or different time 233 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:42,960 slots. And you literally write your 234 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:47,800 title and who you are on a big 8 1/2 by 11 piece of construction 235 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:51,120 paper. Stand up an opening circle, say 236 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:54,520 hey, I'm Phil Windley and I want to host a session on the best 237 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:56,120 guitar chords for Christmas songs. 238 00:13:56,480 --> 00:14:00,120 And then after opening circle is done, you go up to the wall and 239 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:07,560 say I want to be in this in this time slot and in this in this 240 00:14:07,560 --> 00:14:10,040 room you put a put a sticker on there that say what room you're 241 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:13,880 going to be in. And then you go to that room at 242 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:17,160 that time and have your session. So yeah, it's exactly like that. 243 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:20,320 I wonder if we can put like a card up there, Jim. 244 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:22,000 It's like, hey, identity at the center. 245 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:24,960 We want to record a podcast, come into the room and get 246 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:26,800 interviewed by. Us if you if you guys. 247 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:31,960 If you guys come, I will find a room that you could use to make 248 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:36,160 to set up and post a podcast and you know, grab as many guests as 249 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:36,680 you want. So. 250 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:38,400 OK, Well, well, now, now we're cooking. 251 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:40,200 I think now you're speaking Gemini's language. 252 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:44,240 OK, yeah, let's talk about that. Because I've never been to one 253 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:46,480 and I've always been, I'll be honest, intimidated to show up 254 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:49,760 to something like that because I feel like there's just these 255 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:52,000 geniuses, right? You mentioned so many different 256 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:54,880 specs and protocols and frameworks that have come out of 257 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:56,480 this. Maybe they weren't created 258 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:59,280 there, but I mean you've you've basically named every single 259 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:02,840 thing that's used in Identity today has some sort of touch 260 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:05,000 point with IW. That's got to be really 261 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:06,800 gratifying. Yeah, it is. 262 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:09,680 I mean, if I, if I were to point to one thing I've done in my 263 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:12,520 life that I think has had a huge impact, it probably be IIW. 264 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:16,960 And, you know, I mean, frankly, I can't take tons of credit for 265 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:20,320 it, 'cause I don't do much. I mean, you know, I make sure, 266 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:23,480 you know, I charge people for their ticket prices, make sure 267 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:26,480 the food vendors get paid, you know, rent the venue. 268 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:30,080 But the content, right, really comes from all the people. 269 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:31,320 We don't even do a program, right? 270 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,080 We don't even have a program committee who decides what the 271 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:36,200 topics are. That's all from the attendees. 272 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,160 So it's really the attendees who make IOW what it is. 273 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:41,000 Wasn't that true? I think that's true for every 274 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:45,040 conference, right? The the, the, the more, I don't 275 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:47,600 know. Amenable attendees are to having 276 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:49,560 those conversations and this is one thing I've really enjoyed 277 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:52,800 about the identity space is everybody's just so gosh darn 278 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:54,120 friendly. I mean. 279 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:58,400 And in fact, that's that's exactly why we do IIW. 280 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:03,440 The way we do is because we think the best conversations at 281 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:06,520 most conferences are the hallway conversations. 282 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:10,880 And so we're trying to do a workshop where every session is 283 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:14,200 a hallway conversation. That's brilliant. 284 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:16,720 That should be like part of the marketing or logo or something 285 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:18,720 like that, Because you're absolutely right. 286 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:23,280 I mean, I've had some amazing hallway conversations that were, 287 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:26,000 no offense to the conference, way better than the conference 288 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:28,480 content, right? It's this, this dynamic 289 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:30,440 conversation that takes place. I always pointed back to the 290 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:34,120 example of Rodger Grimes spending an hour with me at a 291 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:37,320 table at Authenticate In. It would have been Seattle 292 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:41,320 talking about quantum computing. I mean, ridiculous conversation. 293 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:43,040 And I'm like, OK, this is awesome. 294 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:46,600 Seeing that IW you just call a session on that or sit at a 295 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:48,760 table. We have lots of tables set out 296 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:52,120 and lots of, I mean I suspect that there are probably you know 297 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:55,520 10 times the number of interesting conversations that 298 00:16:55,520 --> 00:17:00,360 happened as there are sessions. The last IW there were 162 299 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:04,400 sessions, about 320 participants. 300 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:08,119 So, you know, two, you know, two participants per session. 301 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:09,920 Obviously it's spread out over time. 302 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:12,599 So you know, it's not really just two people in each session. 303 00:17:12,599 --> 00:17:15,119 But yeah, it's a lot of sessions happen. 304 00:17:15,319 --> 00:17:17,160 Some of them are small, some of them are big. 305 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:19,760 I mean, we have rooms that'll hold, you know, 60 people. 306 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:24,960 We have rooms that'll hold 5. So you're also you have a day 307 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:26,160 job. It sounds like you're also 308 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:30,240 working with AWS Identity. What's your role over at AWSI? 309 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:31,800 Guess what do you work on there? What's your day? 310 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:34,160 What's your What's your like day-to-day like? 311 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:39,600 Yeah, so so I am in AWS Identity and I manage a team of 312 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:43,840 developers working in the Identity space. 313 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:48,760 The most recent thing my team launched was AI. 314 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:52,280 Don't know if you're familiar with Amazon Verified 315 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:54,320 permissions. It's a fine grained access 316 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:57,720 control system based on the Cedar policy language that 317 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:01,640 launched in Gated Preview last June and then was generally 318 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:07,040 available, I'm sorry, Gated preview last November at 319 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:09,080 reinventing. It was generally available last 320 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:14,440 year my team launched a companion service to that that 321 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:19,960 allowed people who are also using AWS Cognito to use Cognito 322 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:23,720 tokens as part of the authorization context for their 323 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:25,880 for their authorization. So. 324 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:27,520 So that's the kind of stuff we do. 325 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:30,160 I'm very interested in authorization at this point. 326 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:36,920 Somebody at IW this last time in Closing Circle said that, you 327 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:41,160 know, they thought that the that I'm paraphrasing the 328 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:45,440 authentication is mostly a solved problem, right. 329 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:48,120 The the Fido and a few other things. 330 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:52,040 I mean we're not, I mean we might mess around with Fido at 331 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:54,560 the edges, but pretty much it's unfishable. 332 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:56,680 It's, you know, challenge response. 333 00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:59,640 It works great. Yes. 334 00:19:00,360 --> 00:19:02,760 We don't, we probably aren't going to get a lot better than 335 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:05,160 that, right. So what's the new thing? 336 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:07,960 What's really interesting, What should people be focusing on 337 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:12,160 authorization, right. I mean, when you think about it, 338 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:17,120 authentication is really the simple thing in the book, which 339 00:19:17,120 --> 00:19:19,280 I know we're going to talk about in a bit. 340 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:23,480 But in the book I give a definition of identity, which is 341 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:29,240 Joe Andrews definition, right. And he says that identity is how 342 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:35,920 we recognize, remember, and respond to other people, places, 343 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:38,360 things, whatever. So if you think about 344 00:19:38,360 --> 00:19:41,440 authentication, it's just about that first part recognizing, 345 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:43,560 right? So with authentication, we 346 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:47,200 recognize people, but you still have to remember who this is. 347 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:49,480 What are their attributes? What do I, what do I care about? 348 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,640 You still have to respond to them, which often means saying 349 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:54,920 what they can access, what they can't access. 350 00:19:55,240 --> 00:20:00,520 So you know the the big part of Identity is really I think in 351 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:03,280 the authorization piece and that's where I'm focusing a lot 352 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:05,680 of my time right now is, is on authorization. 353 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:08,520 And that's a really tough problem. 354 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:10,800 I feel like a lot of organizations struggle with 355 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:15,120 authorization issues. I remember Sarah Cicchetti had 356 00:20:15,120 --> 00:20:18,640 announced the Cedar kind of thing out there a while back. 357 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:20,920 And this is not a topic that we've actually been able to 358 00:20:21,120 --> 00:20:23,440 touch on for people who aren't familiar with Cedar. 359 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:25,080 And we should probably do a whole episode on this 360 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:26,560 separately. You should, yeah. 361 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:28,960 What is, I guess, what's cedar in a nutshell? 362 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:33,640 Yeah, so Cedar is a policy language, right? 363 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:36,720 That allows you to write policies. 364 00:20:37,120 --> 00:20:41,280 It is principal action, resource condition based. 365 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:46,320 Like a lot of policy languages, it doesn't have loops, doesn't 366 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:48,240 have recursion. So it's not Tory complete, 367 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:49,680 right? You can't write programs in it, 368 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:55,840 but you can say things like permit, you know, users who are 369 00:20:55,840 --> 00:21:03,400 part of the resource owner group to make updates to any resource 370 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:07,040 in the photo album, right? And so that's the kind of thing. 371 00:21:08,120 --> 00:21:10,160 But you also could add conditions to that. 372 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:14,760 You could say if it is, if the time is between 8:00 AM in the 373 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:17,920 morning and 5:00 PM at night or you know those kinds of things 374 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:23,320 so so you get this permission action resource triple. 375 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:25,520 And then you also have conditions so that you can do 376 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:27,560 attribute based access control as well. 377 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:33,360 A Cedar comes with an evaluation engine that is open source on 378 00:21:33,360 --> 00:21:36,160 GitHub. It's a great tutorial at 379 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:39,680 cedarpolicy.com that people can go and play with. 380 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:44,000 Amazon Verified Permissions, which I mentioned a minute ago, 381 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:48,560 is a hosted service that essentially runs Cedar for you, 382 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:52,360 you know, makes it easy so you don't have to manage your own 383 00:21:52,360 --> 00:21:57,520 policy store and you know, all of the all of the things that 384 00:21:57,520 --> 00:21:59,720 services do, right. I mean, certain services are 385 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:01,160 great at at those kinds of things. 386 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:04,040 So, so yeah, that's that's what Cedar is in AVP. 387 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:08,040 So, Phil, you've wrote a book called Learning Digital Identity 388 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:11,440 under O'Reilly Publishing, O'Reilly Publishing. 389 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:14,240 Whenever I think of those books, I think of the animals on the 390 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:16,440 cover. Yeah, there's an animal on your 391 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:20,560 cover and I'm wondering, what is that animal and how did it get 392 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:23,320 there? Yeah, so it's a it's a Nanking 393 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:27,960 Night Heron and it's from Australia. 394 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:37,280 And one of the things that is true about O'Reilly books is 395 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:40,280 authors don't get consulted about which animals go on the 396 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:41,840 cover. So you don't get to pick. 397 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:42,600 Right. So. 398 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:46,400 So it's not like the 9 Nanking Night Heron is my spirit animal 399 00:22:48,360 --> 00:22:51,560 or anything. However, you know, there's a 400 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:54,120 colophone in the back of the book that talks about it. 401 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:58,200 And one of the things I think is really interesting is it it says 402 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:08,880 that the Night Raven in ancient Greeks, which is what the Greek 403 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,800 name for the bird is, was used to describe thirds of the ill 404 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,040 omen. So I'm not sure why A Bird of 405 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:19,280 the Hill Omen is on the front of my book, but yeah, there it is. 406 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,280 There it is. So is this the first book you 407 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:23,800 wrote? You mentioned that you wrote a 408 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:26,920 book in what was it, 05 or 06, 2005? 409 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:32,160 So in 2005, under O'Reilly was the same bird the night. 410 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:36,640 Down now at that, at that point they had a different series and 411 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,720 so digital identity was classified in their security 412 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:47,320 series. And so they were doing old I 413 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:51,560 guess woodcuts or something from like the medieval time period. 414 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:54,840 And so I've got some woman on the front of the book. 415 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,000 I don't know. I don't remember what the 416 00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,440 significance of that was. And then I wrote, I wrote 417 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:04,520 another book in 2012 on event processing. 418 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:08,360 So not digital identity. And did that have an animal? 419 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:11,760 No, it was not for O'Reilly. It was a sand gauge book. 420 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:15,200 So got you. Yeah, I did get to design that 421 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:15,960 cover. Actually. 422 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:18,000 I had a friend of mine design it, but yeah. 423 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:23,760 So I found the I forget how I got turned onto the book, but I 424 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,320 was like, OK, I'm going to order this and I was expecting it to 425 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:31,320 be Digital Identity for Dummies. It's definitely not Digital 426 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,640 Identity for Dummies. It's it's thick. 427 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:39,600 It's it's meaty. The text is not huge. 428 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:42,960 There's a lot in there. Who's the book for? 429 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,640 So our our podcast, I tell you, is for the IAM practitioner. 430 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:49,880 People were taking all these great ideas and and putting them 431 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:53,640 into work in the real world. And you know, I think that 432 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:57,160 describes a lot of us, right? You you do that on your in your 433 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,840 day job. Who's The Who is the book for? 434 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,240 Yeah, so, so I think that matches, right? 435 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:07,680 I I wrote the book for IAM practitioners. 436 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:12,600 My hope was, you know, not not to be an introductory book, 437 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:14,920 although I certainly think people do read it as an 438 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:20,840 introductory book. But to be a a complete kind of 439 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:25,120 almost umbrella over the field of digital identity, 'cause I 440 00:25:25,120 --> 00:25:27,600 think too often I am practitioners. 441 00:25:28,120 --> 00:25:31,080 I mean, there's a lot of, there's a lot of books, fine 442 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:33,400 books, right? For, for the purpose that they 443 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,720 that they are trying to to solve for the problems they're trying 444 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:40,360 to solve that are kind of aimed at oh, here's how you use Open 445 00:25:40,360 --> 00:25:44,720 ID Connect to authenticate users in on your application. 446 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:46,920 Right. And I mean there'll be a great 447 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,080 big book about lots of, you know, very meaty, lots of code 448 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:55,000 examples that sort of thing. This book does not have specific 449 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:56,920 code examples, right. This book is not going to tell 450 00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:00,320 you how to use Open ID Connect in your, you know, Java 451 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,080 application to, you know, do whatever. 452 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:08,880 It's it's trying to teach you about what the field of digital 453 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,200 identity is from a holistic standpoint. 454 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:15,160 So you know, so it starts off, you know, like we just talked 455 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:17,320 about, with a definition of digital identity. 456 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:20,840 It talks about why digital identity is hard. 457 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:26,080 It introduces Kim Cameron's Laws of Digital Identity, which if 458 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:28,440 you're if you're an identity professional and you don't know 459 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,160 Kim's laws, then you really ought to learn Kim's laws 460 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:36,120 because they they tell you why it's So what, why identity 461 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,600 system so often fall short. That doesn't mean they're bad, 462 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:41,360 right? Because often identity systems 463 00:26:41,360 --> 00:26:42,960 are built for a specific purpose. 464 00:26:43,360 --> 00:26:46,280 They might not fall short in the terms of the specific purpose, 465 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,080 but what happens then is somebody says, you know, product 466 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:52,480 manager somewhere says, oh, we should, you know, let our users, 467 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:56,040 you know, add, you know, yellow buttons to this part or 468 00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:59,520 whatever. And identity people go, oh, no, 469 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:01,640 we can't do that. I mean that that isn't going to 470 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:03,360 work. We can't support that or that'll 471 00:27:03,360 --> 00:27:04,880 take six months of work before we can. 472 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:07,600 And that's because, you know, the identity system was built 473 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,040 for a specific purpose. And like I said, that's fine. 474 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:11,800 I mean, that's how that's how things work. 475 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,880 But yeah, the laws of identity try to get you to. 476 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:19,280 Yeah. To to think about identity more 477 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:21,920 holistically. And then, you know, the book 478 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,160 kind of goes into some general topics, things like trust, 479 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:30,280 privacy, those kinds of things. And then we get into some 480 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:34,040 specific things like how does authentication work, you know, 481 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,800 and I do talk about Open ID Connect and I do talk about Fido 482 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:41,600 and some specific technologies. But like I said, not in a way 483 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,200 that you know is here's how you use Fido in your application. 484 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:47,200 More about why would you think about using Fido instead of Open 485 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:50,360 ID connector, Why would Open ID Connect be a good thing to use 486 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,400 in certain circumstances? And I try to go back as often as 487 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:59,000 possible to the laws, right, And talk about why this specific 488 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:03,360 technology, which laws is it trying to meet and which laws 489 00:28:03,360 --> 00:28:05,920 does it not meet? Is that OK for your application? 490 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:10,720 Talk about authorization. Talk about Federated ID. 491 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:13,560 Yeah. And how Federated identity 492 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:17,080 works. And then probably the last third 493 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:21,480 of the book or so I get into what I think is the next 494 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:25,600 frontier of identity, which is I use the term self sovereign 495 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,160 identity. Some people say decentralized 496 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:32,520 identity. I I am very opinionated about 497 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,960 this. I I like the term self sovereign 498 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:39,720 identity because I can imagine decentralized identity systems 499 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:45,040 which don't give the user control over their data and 500 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:48,640 identifiers. Self Sovereign very clearly puts 501 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:52,280 a stake in the ground and says the user has to have control 502 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:55,680 over this and that's that. So that's why I like and so the 503 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,680 last start of the book really talks about the the, the 504 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:02,280 technologies and protocols for doing self sovereign or 505 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:06,000 decentralized identity things like did com verifiable 506 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:10,600 credentials that sort of thing. You have to follow up on. 507 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:12,840 We're talking about the laws of identity. 508 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:16,760 So Kim's laws. I remember I was at digital ID 509 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:20,560 World in O5, right? And it was like when these 510 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:26,600 things were brand new and I was as green as green can be to the 511 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,280 the industry. Are they, are they still 512 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:31,520 relevant? I mean, this is 18 years ago. 513 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:37,960 That's that's I think what is so interesting about them and and 514 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:40,360 why I think they deserve the word laws. 515 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:42,960 But they're not laws in the sense of legal laws. 516 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,600 They're not laws in the sense of you know, the laws of physics, 517 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:48,840 right. But they are laws in the sense 518 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:55,440 of they they describe big enough concepts in general enough terms 519 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,560 to to still be specific enough to be useful but to not go out 520 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,400 of date. And and I think that's one of 521 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:06,200 the things that makes them laws and I I believe they're still 522 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:10,480 extremely useful. You know, there's things like 523 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:15,680 user control and consent, and Kim makes a stand on what are 524 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:17,920 what. How digital identity system 525 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:21,280 should enable user control and consent. 526 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:23,720 So you can ask yourself a question, does the identity 527 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:27,680 system I'm using enable user control and consent or to what? 528 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:32,200 What extent does it enable user control and consent and is that 529 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,040 OK? Minimal disclosure for 530 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:37,200 constrained use is another one. I mean that's kind of timeless, 531 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:38,520 right? I mean that's the kind of thing. 532 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,040 I mean identity systems, which haven't respected minimal 533 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:44,920 disclosure for constrained use is what's gotten us into the 534 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,040 whole privacy debacle that we're in that now, right, with people 535 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:54,000 worried about AII mean, you know, how does digital identity 536 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:55,920 relate to artificial intelligence? 537 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:59,240 I think artificial intelligence without a good self sovereign 538 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:02,960 identity system is just a disaster waiting to happen. 539 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:05,120 All right. So So Kim's laws, I think, are 540 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:09,440 still very, very relevant. I think you know as you were 541 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,560 saying that I'm like one of the things that attracted me to the 542 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:15,840 identity space was going to those orally conferences and 543 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:19,760 seeing this isn't just technology, ones and zeros and 544 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:23,720 how to plug this in to make it work with that it's there's a 545 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,520 philosophical layer that. There is. 546 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:29,200 It's always. Just beneath the surface of 547 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:33,360 everything. And maybe AI is like the next 548 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:36,440 industry where that can happen because it seems like every 549 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:44,120 other kind of industry within IT kind of gets boring and just 550 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:47,480 gets commoditized. Like I I originally entered the 551 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,440 space coming from the network engineering side of the house 552 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:55,680 and it's like everything that I used to do got commoditized in 553 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:58,880 terms of like data centers all just got outsourced. 554 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,960 Like nobody run physically run servers anymore. 555 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:06,400 I mean, I'm sure some people do, but it's certainly shrunken down 556 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:10,440 in terms of the overall population of IT professionals. 557 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,920 But Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, back to the book. 558 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:17,840 One of the things that that blew me away, like again, I was like 559 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:23,480 kind of expecting digital IT, Digital ID for Dummies. 560 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:25,880 Not saying that in any kind of insulting way. 561 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:29,040 I think those books are fantastic, you know. 562 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:34,880 But what I also saw was like this is like an encyclopedia and 563 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:37,640 I'm wondering like how does one person know all this? 564 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:41,640 So did did you write the whole thing yourself or did you have 565 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:43,640 like sub authors or how does that work? 566 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:46,680 I wrote the whole thing myself. I mean, that doesn't mean that 567 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,200 all of the ideas are mine. I mean, you know, I've, I've 568 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,920 gone to, you know, 37. I I WSI, yeah. 569 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:57,200 One of the things I I write A blog at winley.com. 570 00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,480 My name. And one of the reasons I write 571 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,800 is, you know, I tell people I write for me write it. 572 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:08,880 I write so that I can understand ideas and get them in my head. 573 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:11,800 You know, if they happen to be useful to other people, that's 574 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:13,400 great. But, you know, I like to write 575 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:17,160 them down, 'cause it's how I process information and how I 576 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:20,320 come to understand things. So, you know, some of the things 577 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:22,560 in the book actually came from my blog. 578 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,640 Obviously, you know, modified, edited, expanded, that sort of 579 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:27,720 thing. But yeah, just I just kind of 580 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:32,360 collect this stuff. And, you know, I I originally, 581 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:35,040 like, like we discussed, I wrote a book in 2005. 582 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:40,280 My original idea was to write a second edition and and I've been 583 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:44,080 meaning to write a second audition of digital identity for 584 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,880 probably 12 years now since 2010 or so. 585 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:53,320 And you know I've held several sessions at IOW saying hey you 586 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:56,360 know if you're if I go to re redo this what should I put in 587 00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:57,920 it. You know, people always gave me 588 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:02,320 ideas and then you know, the whole self sovereign identity 589 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:04,680 thing happened. And I I knew I wanted to do a 590 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:09,320 book that included that. But I also wanted to not just do 591 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:11,639 a book a self sovereign identity, I wanted to do a book 592 00:34:11,639 --> 00:34:15,719 that was, you know, covered the digital identity from, you know, 593 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:19,760 start to finish and kind of had like you mentioned, of kind of a 594 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:25,159 philosophical base to it. You know, one of the things I I 595 00:34:25,159 --> 00:34:29,120 like to say is that digital identity isn't about identity, 596 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:33,199 it's about relationships. People build identity systems to 597 00:34:33,199 --> 00:34:35,840 manage relationships, not to manage identities. 598 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,280 The identities are just the the things they need to put in them 599 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:41,239 in order to create the relationship. 600 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,679 And so I wanted to include all of that in the book. 601 00:34:44,679 --> 00:34:47,400 And so I started putting together a table of contents, 602 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:49,880 which if you ever in a book, that's like the first thing you 603 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:52,239 do, right, is you write a book proposal that includes A 604 00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,639 detailed table of contents. And you know, when I sent it to 605 00:34:55,639 --> 00:34:59,440 O'Reilly, they said, wow, this is great, but this is way too 606 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:01,040 different to be a second edition. 607 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:05,160 So it's going to be a new book. I said, OK, so it's a new book. 608 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:09,520 How do you suggest someone read the book? 609 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:14,080 Like do you attack, attack it from cover to cover or do you 610 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:16,480 that maybe I could say here's what I did. 611 00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,280 I decided to attack it from page one. 612 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:23,440 I probably read the first three or four chapters, but then I got 613 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:27,680 excited about different areas. I was like, I can't wait to get 614 00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:29,720 to this chapter. So I jumped ahead and read the 615 00:35:29,720 --> 00:35:34,520 chapters that I wanted. Yeah, Well, I mean I think that 616 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:38,360 a lot of the chapters are standalone. 617 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:42,320 So for example, you know, like like I said, I lead a team in 618 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:44,840 AWS Identity. Not all of them are Identity 619 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:46,520 experts, right. They're developers who came from 620 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:50,160 different areas. You know, I'll just point them 621 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:54,680 at chapter, you know 11 and say hey, you know, you need to go 622 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:57,880 read about authentication and how Open ID works. 623 00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:00,880 You can go, you can just go read Chapter 11 and kind of 624 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:04,000 understand authentication. Now it's going to refer back to 625 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:05,560 things. It's going to say, oh, you know, 626 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,400 here's the definition of identity and authentication is 627 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:10,720 about recognizing people. It's going to do those things. 628 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:12,880 It's going to refer back to the laws of identity. 629 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:14,960 So. So you can probably pick out 630 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:19,600 almost any chapter and just read it by itself without having read 631 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,080 anything. That said, I think what you did 632 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:24,680 is probably how I'd recommend people read the book because 633 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,280 you're certainly read probably the 1st 5 chapters. 634 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:32,160 They're probably the the chapters that layout kind of my 635 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,680 overall philosophy of how I approach identity and how I 636 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:37,840 think about it. But then after that, you know, 637 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:41,160 if you're interested in, you know, how does privacy work, 638 00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:46,360 Chapter 8 works great. You know Chapter 9 is kind of a 639 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,440 general developer's intro to cryptography, right? 640 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:52,640 I mean, it's not going to teach you to be a cryptographer. 641 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:56,160 It's more if you're doing identity cryptography is 642 00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:59,080 everywhere, what do you have to know about cryptography in order 643 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:01,160 to do it? So you know, you might go into 644 00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:04,200 the, you know, to the authentication chapter and get 645 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:08,040 into some section and say, OK, and it says, oh, we use digital 646 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:09,960 signatures to validate the token. 647 00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,320 And you're going to say, what's a digital signature? 648 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:14,800 Well then go back to Chapter 9 and read about digital 649 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,240 signatures. I think that's a perfectly valid 650 00:37:17,240 --> 00:37:20,760 way to read the book. Yeah, and like I said, I'm 651 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:22,560 giving my endorsement. Great book. 652 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:26,360 How can people get their hands on the book and is there an 653 00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:30,640 audio version? There is not an audio version 654 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:34,360 but you know you should suggest that to O'Reilly on their on 655 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:36,760 their website. You know to go in and suggest, 656 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:38,120 oh we need an audio version of this. 657 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:42,040 Yeah. So I mean obviously Amazon is a 658 00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:47,240 is a good way to do it. It's it's available on on on 659 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,520 O'reilly's site. You know, if you're if you're 660 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:55,080 part, if you're a member of O'reilly's for what they call a 661 00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:57,960 Learning Center, you have access to the book. 662 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:02,080 Ping Identity actually bonds writes to the book to publish on 663 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:06,600 their website and you can go get chapters of the book. 664 00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:09,240 I think they're serializing and I don't know what they're up to 665 00:38:09,240 --> 00:38:11,640 now but Ping Identity has it on their website. 666 00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:13,360 So any of those are great ways to do it. 667 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:16,440 Yeah. Go to my blog and click on the 668 00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:18,920 link and that'll take you to Amazon. 669 00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:20,760 So. We'll put links in the show 670 00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:25,080 notes so anybody can, you know, grab a link and hit find the 671 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:29,520 exact, you know, place to go and purchase a book if that's what 672 00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:33,720 they're interested in. You know, I I kind of wonder 673 00:38:33,720 --> 00:38:38,280 like if you were not the person reading the audio audio book, 674 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:42,760 who would you choose to read it? Just well, I pick you, Jim. 675 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:46,720 Oh God, it would make it would make it twice as long. 676 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:50,840 What else can I say? Yeah, That's a good question. 677 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:52,840 Morgan Freeman is who came to my mind. 678 00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:55,240 Yeah, I I think I'd pick Doc Searles. 679 00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,600 He has a great radio voice. He used to be in radio way back 680 00:38:58,600 --> 00:38:59,440 in the day. So. 681 00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:01,840 So yeah, I think he'd he'd do great and I'd pick Doc. 682 00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:03,680 All right. Plus one for Doc. 683 00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:07,200 OK. So now I wanted to talk more 684 00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:10,040 about what was it like to write the book. 685 00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:14,840 And so kind of broke this into a couple of questions. 686 00:39:15,240 --> 00:39:17,160 What was the hardest chapter for you to write? 687 00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:23,720 Probably the intro and the last chapter so so the intro. 688 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:28,680 I always wait till the end. So when I started writing I I 689 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:32,680 pretty much wrote it in order. I started with chapter 2 and 690 00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:37,000 went on through, but I didn't write chapter one, partly 691 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:41,400 because I think introductions are hard to write, especially 692 00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:43,600 before you've written the book. You know, 'cause you really want 693 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,080 the intro to be an intro, right? You wanted to talk about what 694 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:49,600 the book's gonna say. And so, you know, I wait till 695 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:53,160 I'm done and then I write that. And so chapter one is probably 696 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:58,560 one of the hardest chapters. You know, all of them involve a 697 00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:04,520 little bit of of research. I mean, you know, even now you 698 00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:07,720 know somebody will talk about Samuel and I'll pick up my book 699 00:40:07,720 --> 00:40:09,360 and. Go look at the sample section, 700 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:11,840 'cause I don't remember all that stuff out of my head, obviously, 701 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:14,400 you know, so. So there's a little bit of 702 00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:17,400 research in all of it though. The last chapter though, I think 703 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:24,280 was also not difficult, but it was challenging because I wanted 704 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:29,880 to talk about me my my goal right in. 705 00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:34,520 I think digital identity is foundational to how we live our 706 00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:37,960 digital lives. In fact, I say that several 707 00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:43,240 times in the book that without digital identity systems that 708 00:40:43,240 --> 00:40:48,440 respect individuals and their rights, we cannot expect to live 709 00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:53,280 effective online lives and have any degree of privacy. 710 00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:56,400 They'll they'll always. I mean, don't get me wrong, I I 711 00:40:56,400 --> 00:41:00,160 think the current world of the Internet is actually amazing. 712 00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:03,840 But it's like living in Disneyland in the sense that 713 00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:06,840 it's all curated, right? It's all these experiences that 714 00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:10,440 Google put together for you, or Apple put together for you or 715 00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:15,600 whatever, and you really aren't having a authentic human 716 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:19,480 experience where you connect with people. 717 00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:22,160 You know, I like to use the example of going to a 718 00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:25,120 convenience store, right? If we put a convenience store 719 00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:29,320 online, you would have to actually have relationships with 720 00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:32,400 like the coffee maker and the people in line with you. 721 00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:36,760 And you know, you'd have to like exchange identifiers or you 722 00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:39,880 know, or maybe the convenience store would have a login system. 723 00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:42,440 You had to log in so that you could even talk to the other 724 00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:44,600 people in line. I mean, that's what it would be 725 00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:45,760 like. That's not authentic. 726 00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:50,040 That's not how humans live. So, so, so I'm, I'm ranting, as 727 00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:53,880 you can tell, but but if you want to live effective digital 728 00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:59,240 lives, we have to have identity systems that respect human 729 00:41:59,240 --> 00:42:03,440 rights, human privacy, give people control over their 730 00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:06,960 identifiers, over the data that those identifiers are linked to. 731 00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:13,800 And so I I wanted to end the book in a way that help digital 732 00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:18,000 identity practitioners understand that they were 733 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:22,760 building the future and the future was what they decided it 734 00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:25,440 was going to be, Right? The future is not preordained. 735 00:42:25,720 --> 00:42:29,760 It is based on what we build as practitioners. 736 00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:33,760 What, And you know, we can say, oh, but Google, Apple, blah, 737 00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:36,080 blah, blah, we all build it, right? 738 00:42:36,240 --> 00:42:39,040 We go to work for them. We decide what kind of systems 739 00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:41,040 we're going to build. We decide what kind of systems 740 00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:45,880 we're going to advocate for. And if we advocate for systems 741 00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:51,720 that help people live good digital online lives, then then 742 00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:56,240 we've built something great and we have built a future that is 743 00:42:56,240 --> 00:42:58,760 worth living in. You know, I said, I think I 744 00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:02,320 close with a quote by Shoshanna Zubov, who wrote the book on a 745 00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:07,280 surveillance capitalism. You know, and and I can't 746 00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:10,120 remember her exact question, but it's something like is is the 747 00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:12,920 future, is the digital future when we want to live in? 748 00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:17,440 And you know, my answer is a hearty yes. 749 00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:21,520 So long as digital identity practitioners built the future 750 00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:26,120 they want to live in, not the future they want to avoid. 751 00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:28,680 So anyway, there that, that's my spiel. 752 00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:32,280 And so I I wanted to write the last chapter in a way that led 753 00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:36,600 people to that and help them feel a sense of purpose and 754 00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:40,240 responsibility for the for the digital future. 755 00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:43,160 And whether it succeeded or not, I don't know, but that's what I 756 00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:45,560 wanted to do. So it was a challenging chapter 757 00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:48,720 to write. Yeah, I know that's I think the 758 00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:53,400 the whole introduction like made a lot of sense to me because 759 00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:56,280 writing it at the end probably makes the most sense. 760 00:43:56,640 --> 00:44:00,760 But I also like that you brought up Surveillance Capitalism, 761 00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:04,000 another great book, right. All of our listings, if you're 762 00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:09,040 looking for that that reading list for 2024, that's a good one 763 00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:12,640 to put on the list. I'm wondering Phil, so when I 764 00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:17,280 again with how much is in here and I'm sure when you sent the 765 00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:21,120 the outline over to the O'Reilly people they're probably not only 766 00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:27,600 like is a separate book but this is like a an epic especially if 767 00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:30,160 you did your day job while you're writing the book. 768 00:44:30,240 --> 00:44:34,160 So so did you take a hiatus in order to write the book or just? 769 00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:36,160 Do it at night. I didn't. 770 00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:41,280 I wrote it mostly at night and on weekends, you know. 771 00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:45,240 Thanks to my wife Lynn for putting up with all of that. 772 00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:51,920 But but yeah it was I I wrote it in about a year and you know do 773 00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:55,920 you have an editor and you know I I try to be nice to my editors 774 00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:58,960 and give them their chapters when I've promised them and they 775 00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:00,680 get and they do give you a schedule, right. 776 00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:03,440 They they say, OK we want half of the chapters turned in by 777 00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:04,960 this date. We want, you know, another 778 00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:06,760 quarter turned in by this date, so on. 779 00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:12,200 So yeah, so I tried to make make their schedule and got it done. 780 00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:16,000 So did did as you're going it. Did much of what you're working 781 00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:18,160 on end up on the cutting room floor? 782 00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:22,680 I mean, it seems like that, you know, you look at something 783 00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:26,000 that's written it, not just the 20 pages that made it. 784 00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:28,480 It's all of the editing and everything. 785 00:45:28,720 --> 00:45:31,200 Yeah, yeah. Well, and I and I mentioned I 786 00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:33,960 had an editor and actually love working with editors. 787 00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:36,720 You know, some people don't. They don't like having their 788 00:45:36,720 --> 00:45:37,840 work criticized. Whatever. 789 00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:41,560 I I, I love that someone is going to spend their time making 790 00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:44,160 me look smart. And that's what editors do, 791 00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:45,840 right? They make they make your writing 792 00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:47,640 look good. They tell you when things don't 793 00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:51,280 make sense and you know when you need to clarify something. 794 00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:54,800 So I I don't know how much ended up on the cutting room floor, 795 00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:58,080 but I will tell you that lots of stuff changed as we went into 796 00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:00,360 the editing process moved things around. 797 00:46:00,720 --> 00:46:03,200 You know she'd asked questions. I'd add a new section. 798 00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:05,760 I'd move a section. I'd, you know completely redo a 799 00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:08,440 description and that that kind of thing. 800 00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:11,840 So yeah, the the editing definitely changed the book, and 801 00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:14,000 for the better. Oh, that's really cool. 802 00:46:14,240 --> 00:46:17,800 So what does it feel about the book, or about the experience of 803 00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:20,520 writing the book, or whatever, that you're most proud of? 804 00:46:21,240 --> 00:46:25,480 Well, I mean, I feel like I accomplished the goal that I set 805 00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:27,000 out to which we just discussed, right? 806 00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:30,960 Getting people to the end of the book with a call to action with 807 00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:33,880 with a feeling for that they understood the world of digital 808 00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:35,760 identity. That they knew how important it 809 00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:40,840 was, that they knew the concepts and the underlying technologies 810 00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:45,720 and could could then go out and say OK I know that we should be 811 00:46:45,720 --> 00:46:51,400 doing it this way or we need to work on minimizing, you know the 812 00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:53,800 the information we ask users for. 813 00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:57,160 You know, whatever that is that's that's what hope they do. 814 00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:00,360 And I think the book gets there. What whether people agree with 815 00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:03,080 me or not on that, I don't know. But that's, you know, I think 816 00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:06,600 that's where the book got to, and I and I hope that's, you 817 00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:08,880 know, what people get out of it. Yeah. 818 00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:12,080 And I think, yeah, it was definitely the opportunity to 819 00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:15,760 get that and and probably introduce a lot of people to 820 00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:18,560 some of these concepts who haven't been in the industry as 821 00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:23,280 long as as you have. Last question about this is you 822 00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:25,520 talked about the 2nd edition of the first book. 823 00:47:25,720 --> 00:47:27,880 Will there be a second edition of this one? 824 00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:31,440 And if if you were to write a second edition, what would be 825 00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:33,560 different? Yeah. 826 00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:37,440 So if I were to write a second edition right now, obviously 827 00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:40,960 it's only, you know, less than a year old. 828 00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:43,560 So I probably wouldn't change the structure too much. 829 00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:47,440 But I mean, if you look at my blog, you'll see all of the 830 00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:51,440 stuff I've written about since the book came out is is stuff 831 00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:58,440 that likely I would think about adding, you know, so, you know, 832 00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:03,040 I've got, you know, even just, you know, most recent things, I 833 00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:08,320 mean things like permissionless and 1:00 to 1:00 computing at 834 00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:12,320 the edge, you know, those are all topics that I think zero 835 00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:14,280 data, I mean zero data, zero trust. 836 00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:17,680 I mean, I don't even mention the word zero trust in the book. 837 00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:21,320 And yet that's, you know, I think a huge topic that people 838 00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:23,720 care about. You know, as I've gotten more 839 00:48:23,720 --> 00:48:26,480 into authorization, that's clearly one of the one of the 840 00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:28,480 use cases for authorization is zero trust. 841 00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:32,360 So, so you know those are things that you know, now I go my word, 842 00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:34,920 why didn't I think about zero trust and put that in the book, 843 00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:38,680 But you know at the time it wasn't in my radar. 844 00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:39,760 So. So yeah, there are, there are 845 00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:42,880 plenty of things I would add, don't know that I'd cut much, 846 00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:47,440 not yet anyway. But, you know, some of the 847 00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:51,520 chapters, you know, if you look at the first digital identity 848 00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:54,360 first book I wrote and look at the chapters, you'll see there 849 00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:57,920 are chapters that are have essentially the same title. 850 00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:04,080 And, you know, some of the sections sound similar, but, you 851 00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:06,920 know, they're, they're largely rewritten. 852 00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:10,880 You know, like in the chapter on authorization, I do talk about 853 00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:13,880 mandatory access control and discretionary access control. 854 00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:17,640 Those are things I just lifted from the first book and rewrote. 855 00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:21,320 But yeah, so. So yeah, I don't know that I'd 856 00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:23,120 drop much. But, you know, if you ask me in 857 00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:25,440 five years, yeah, there's probably stuff that I'd sell. 858 00:49:25,720 --> 00:49:28,600 Nobody cares about that anymore. I feel like this is the space of 859 00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:30,480 identity, right? There's always something coming 860 00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:32,400 and going. Like I mentioned earlier, right? 861 00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:35,480 I mean, we started IIW literally with the idea. 862 00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:37,240 We all had things we wanted to work on. 863 00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:40,760 Doc was interested in, in, you know, personal data. 864 00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:43,800 I was interested in reputation systems. 865 00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:46,200 And we thought, oh, we'll solve this identity problem, then 866 00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:48,240 we'll go off and work on the things that we care about. 867 00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:50,960 And we're now, you know, in April, we're going to hold the 868 00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:54,440 38th edition of IIW. And it's always fresh. 869 00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:58,720 It's always got new topics. Yeah, it's it's like this 870 00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:01,960 identity is this Evergreen topic because we're constantly 871 00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:05,520 learning new things about it and, you know, expanding what we 872 00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:09,960 think is important. Is there a new topic or topic du 873 00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:13,480 jour that you've seen really kind of take hold and let's say 874 00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:17,640 the last six months, maybe the last two or three Iiws? 875 00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:20,280 Is there something that's like wow, this is starting to catch? 876 00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:22,040 Fire. Well, I mentioned one 877 00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:24,400 authorization. I think authorization is a is a 878 00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:27,400 big topic that people are starting to pay much more 879 00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:29,120 attention to than they have in the past. 880 00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:34,800 The other one that is clearly been a topic of conversation at 881 00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:38,280 Iowa for probably the last four years has been self sovereign 882 00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:42,360 identity, digital identity, you know protocols like did com 883 00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:46,600 systems like verifiable credentials, how do we make 884 00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:48,880 those work? What's user uptake, how do we 885 00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:53,040 get adoption for those? So, so yeah, that's been a huge 886 00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:56,040 topic. I mean IW has in some ways been 887 00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:59,600 Ground Zero for that topic over the last few years. 888 00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:05,360 So yeah, those those are big. I want to pick your brain on 889 00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:09,520 sort of identity itself and from an innovation standpoint, what 890 00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:13,240 do you think is the most, I don't know, important identity 891 00:51:13,240 --> 00:51:18,160 thing that's come into play recently like let's say within 892 00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:22,320 the last maybe year or two? I would probably pick 893 00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:25,320 Decentralized Identifiers and Verifiable Credentials. 894 00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:28,120 They they mean decentralized identifiers. 895 00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:34,720 Especially the peer DID method change how identifiers work in 896 00:51:34,720 --> 00:51:37,800 some fundamental ways. And the most important way is 897 00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:42,560 that decentralized identifiers, like I said, especially peer 898 00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:46,960 Dids, are meant to be controlled by people in wallets. 899 00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:53,400 And that is, if you think about, you know what I was saying 900 00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:57,960 earlier about why what, what it, what's it going to take for us 901 00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:02,880 to lead effective online lives? That idea, right. 902 00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:07,680 I think the biggest thing standing in the way and this is 903 00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:12,960 going to go to Jim's philosophical bet is we are not 904 00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:18,160 digitally embodied. If and you know I I cause we've 905 00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:20,480 got video I can see it kind of squinting a little bit what does 906 00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:23,760 Phil mean by that. Well, what I mean, what I mean 907 00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:28,480 is if you think about, obviously anybody could stand up a 908 00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:30,400 website. I mean there's something 909 00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:36,320 stopping my mom from standing up a website, but the she's not 910 00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:40,720 going too right. It means so who are the things 911 00:52:40,720 --> 00:52:43,360 online or what are the things online that we think about as 912 00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:46,320 being the places we go? Well, they're all, they're all 913 00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:51,360 things run by companies and most of them are run with what I term 914 00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:55,080 intervening administrative authorities, meaning that the, 915 00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:59,520 the identity administrator is sitting between you and whatever 916 00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:01,800 you want to do, right. They're intervening in this 917 00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:06,880 interaction. We don't have any place to stand 918 00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:09,160 in the online world. The browser, isn't it right? 919 00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:11,400 The browser is client server. It's a client. 920 00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:14,200 It's on the server. Server is making all the 921 00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:16,800 decisions. The client is just echoing 922 00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:20,560 whatever the server tells it to. What do we, what is it going to 923 00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:24,760 take for us to be embodied, To have something where we are 924 00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:28,240 online work, where you and I can exchange messages without any 925 00:53:28,240 --> 00:53:33,720 intervening system? Well, what I think it takes is 926 00:53:33,720 --> 00:53:35,880 it takes what people are calling digital wallets. 927 00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:39,000 And so, you know, what do I think is the most exciting, 928 00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:41,680 interesting digital identity thing right now? 929 00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:46,720 Digital wallets and how digital wallets allow us to create peer 930 00:53:46,720 --> 00:53:51,160 identifiers, exchange those peer identifiers, exchange trust 931 00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:55,520 information with each other, you know, verifiable credentials and 932 00:53:55,520 --> 00:53:58,920 essentially be the masters of our own system, right. 933 00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:02,280 And you know phones, the things that we carry around in our 934 00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:05,920 pocket, give us platforms that we can use those digital like 935 00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:10,040 digital wallets in. And I think that that is the 936 00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:13,280 most important and exciting thing that is coming along right 937 00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:14,040 now. All right. 938 00:54:14,040 --> 00:54:16,720 Last question before we start to wrap things up with a lighter 939 00:54:16,720 --> 00:54:19,080 note. Where do you see AI taking 940 00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:22,720 identity in the next five years? Yeah, yeah. 941 00:54:22,720 --> 00:54:25,840 So. So I think that I think I said 942 00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:30,720 earlier, AI without a good self sovereign identity basis is 943 00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:34,480 pretty scary. What's fake? 944 00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:36,800 What's not? Who created what? 945 00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:40,520 Who didn't? Are you really you or are you a 946 00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:42,680 fake you? How do I know that you're really 947 00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:44,080 you? How do I know that you're human? 948 00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:46,240 How do I guarantee that you're human? 949 00:54:46,240 --> 00:54:51,600 Well, I mean think about, so think, think about just that 950 00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:54,080 question. How do I guarantee you're human? 951 00:54:54,080 --> 00:54:57,400 How do I know that you're human? And now think about how we do 952 00:54:57,400 --> 00:54:58,960 that. This is 2023. 953 00:54:59,240 --> 00:55:00,840 You go to open up a new bank account. 954 00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:03,880 How do they do it? They do like a zoom call with 955 00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:06,920 you and have you hold up your driver's license in the call 956 00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:10,640 with them. I mean my word talk. 957 00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:14,080 I mean this is like Stone Age technology compared to. 958 00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:17,120 Neanderthals, yeah. Yeah, what we could do, right. 959 00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:22,560 And and so in order for AI, in order for us to coexist with AII 960 00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:24,880 think we have to be able to prove online that we're human. 961 00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:29,440 We have to have clear ways of knowing when we're interacting 962 00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:34,000 with an AI and when we're not. That is all going to be based on 963 00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:37,520 self sovereign identity systems. Or I mean I don't know that it's 964 00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:40,440 actually going to be did come in a verifiable credential spec, 965 00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:41,920 but it's going to be something like them. 966 00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:46,480 But it's going to be something where I have identifiers that I 967 00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:50,080 control in my wallet and can prove that I'm human without 968 00:55:50,080 --> 00:55:52,760 having to hold up my driver's license and a zoom call to you. 969 00:55:53,920 --> 00:55:57,240 So, so those that's where I think AI takes identity. 970 00:55:57,240 --> 00:56:00,840 I think it drives this need for self sovereign identity even 971 00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:04,200 further than it has been. I know we're running long, but I 972 00:56:04,200 --> 00:56:06,520 I just have to have ask two more questions here. 973 00:56:07,240 --> 00:56:11,680 We talk about Self Sovereign Identity and I I I put a poll 974 00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:14,480 out recently on one of our episodes, 'cause we had a 975 00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:17,520 conversation around blockchain on the identity side of things. 976 00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:21,440 And basically the poll question was who would you trust to run 977 00:56:21,880 --> 00:56:23,800 your decentralized identity platform? 978 00:56:24,280 --> 00:56:30,040 And I think that's going to be a problem for adoption is who does 979 00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:32,480 run, you know, this decentral platform? 980 00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:34,240 Is it the government? Is it education? 981 00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:37,160 Is it healthcare? I mean, given where we're at 982 00:56:37,160 --> 00:56:40,720 today politically in the US, if the government does it, 50% of 983 00:56:40,720 --> 00:56:42,160 the population is immediately out. 984 00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:44,800 Yeah, like, who do we trust first? 985 00:56:44,840 --> 00:56:47,840 Of all, first of all I would say it doesn't need to be a 986 00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:52,120 blockchain. And there are lots of ways to 987 00:56:52,120 --> 00:56:56,080 decentralize identity and create self sovereign identity systems 988 00:56:56,760 --> 00:57:03,360 that don't necessarily require the the somebody to run 989 00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:06,120 something. So for example with peer Dids we 990 00:57:06,120 --> 00:57:09,000 can all create whatever Dids we want, You and I can exchange 991 00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:11,800 them, we can all, you know, vouch for each other. 992 00:57:12,040 --> 00:57:14,040 We could create reputation systems. 993 00:57:14,280 --> 00:57:18,480 None of that requires any kind of platform at all. 994 00:57:18,480 --> 00:57:21,520 Now, that doesn't mean I don't believe we don't. 995 00:57:21,520 --> 00:57:23,480 We won't get benefit out of a platform. 996 00:57:24,120 --> 00:57:30,120 So for example, if I want my driver's license as a credential 997 00:57:30,120 --> 00:57:33,480 that I hold in my wallet, there needs to be something that can 998 00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:36,000 tell me that that driver's license really came from the 999 00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:39,000 state of Virginia and not from, you know, I did just make it 1000 00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:41,520 myself. How's that going to work? 1001 00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:43,680 Right. So, so there's a, there's kind 1002 00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:46,080 of a new term that people are floating around called 1003 00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:48,400 acceptance networks. We could probably do a whole 1004 00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:51,400 show on just acceptance networks, but that's that's 1005 00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:53,600 essentially I think what it's going to take. 1006 00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:56,200 It's not going to be a company, right? 1007 00:57:56,200 --> 00:58:00,800 It can't be a company. It has to be a protocol, A 1008 00:58:00,800 --> 00:58:03,680 governance model. It has to have lots of people 1009 00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:08,960 who have bought off on it and you know there there can be more 1010 00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:12,560 than one one acceptance network. There doesn't have to be 1. 1011 00:58:12,920 --> 00:58:15,920 When I say acceptance network, the best example we have of 1012 00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:19,360 acceptance networks are Visa and MasterCard and American Express. 1013 00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:23,240 They're all acceptance networks. They have governance, they have 1014 00:58:23,240 --> 00:58:25,920 technology, they have protocols, they have processes. 1015 00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:29,400 And all of those things make it so that I can walk into a 1016 00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:33,440 merchant in London, slap down a little piece of plastic and that 1017 00:58:33,440 --> 00:58:36,680 merchant is almost guaranteed that they're going to get paid. 1018 00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:40,800 But that's that's magic. Why does it work? 1019 00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:43,280 Well, it works because governance, process, protocol, 1020 00:58:43,280 --> 00:58:45,720 technology of them all come together and solve that problem. 1021 00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:48,320 That's what we need. We we need that sort of thing 1022 00:58:48,520 --> 00:58:50,720 doesn't have, it shouldn't be run by the government, doesn't 1023 00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:52,600 shouldn't be run by a single company. 1024 00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:55,320 But we're going to have something like that, maybe 1025 00:58:55,320 --> 00:58:59,080 multiple some things like that and you know we'll decide which 1026 00:58:59,080 --> 00:59:02,280 ones we want to use based on where we want to do business, 1027 00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:04,360 so. All right. 1028 00:59:04,360 --> 00:59:06,520 Final question. Go back to AI because I just 1029 00:59:06,520 --> 00:59:09,040 have to How do you see that impacting your book writing 1030 00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:12,120 process in the future? Well, you know, it's it's 1031 00:59:12,120 --> 00:59:16,720 interesting. So I'm I have tried to 1032 00:59:16,720 --> 00:59:21,800 incorporate generative AI in multiple places in my life. 1033 00:59:23,080 --> 00:59:28,440 So I use AI like a virtual assistant, but I don't like to 1034 00:59:28,440 --> 00:59:32,040 just ask it to write sections 'cause I think it produces text 1035 00:59:32,040 --> 00:59:35,160 which at least at this point, you can still kind of tell It 1036 00:59:35,160 --> 00:59:38,240 wasn't written by me at least because I have a certain writing 1037 00:59:38,240 --> 00:59:40,720 style. And even if you say, oh use the 1038 00:59:40,720 --> 00:59:44,480 style of Technometria blog to to do this, it still doesn't write. 1039 00:59:44,680 --> 00:59:46,720 So what I do is I like asking questions. 1040 00:59:46,920 --> 00:59:50,600 So I I don't know, I mean one of my favorite books and there's a 1041 00:59:50,600 --> 00:59:53,200 whole store back story to this. One of my favorite books is a 1042 00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:56,280 book called Snow Crash. And in Snow Crash, the 1043 00:59:56,640 --> 01:00:02,480 protagonist who is named Hero Protagonist uses this. 1044 01:00:03,160 --> 01:00:07,240 AI called the Librarian. And this Neil Stephenson wrote 1045 01:00:07,240 --> 01:00:10,040 this book like in 2004. Something like that. 1046 01:00:10,680 --> 01:00:12,640 No, no, sorry. So 1994. 1047 01:00:12,800 --> 01:00:17,440 I mean, long ago, right? And if you go list, read the 1048 01:00:17,640 --> 01:00:21,720 read the dialogue that hero has with the librarian, that's what 1049 01:00:21,720 --> 01:00:24,080 you should be doing with Chachi PT, right? 1050 01:00:24,080 --> 01:00:29,520 So I'll ask Chachi PT. Something like tell me how this 1051 01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:33,800 particular company enables zero trust or what their product does 1052 01:00:33,800 --> 01:00:38,360 to And then I'll say OK, but what about this, do they And so 1053 01:00:38,360 --> 01:00:41,760 I'll ask it for information. Now you have to kind of take it 1054 01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:45,080 with a grain of salt because as Johanna Stern says, these are 1055 01:00:45,080 --> 01:00:47,760 large language models, not large fact models. 1056 01:00:48,040 --> 01:00:51,080 So, so you you say you have to know enough about the subject to 1057 01:00:51,080 --> 01:00:55,360 be a good interrogator that I use it. 1058 01:00:55,520 --> 01:00:58,880 I interrogate it all the time. In fact, I am giving all of my 1059 01:00:58,880 --> 01:01:05,040 kids at 5, giving all of my kids a $250 gift certificate and a 1060 01:01:05,320 --> 01:01:09,400 instruction sheet on how and and I'm expecting them to use the 1061 01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:13,800 $250 to subscribe to chat sheet PT for one year. 1062 01:01:14,480 --> 01:01:17,920 It's because you do get some benefits from subscribing and to 1063 01:01:18,120 --> 01:01:19,920 to incorporate it into their lives. 1064 01:01:19,920 --> 01:01:22,240 So, so that's how important I think it is. 1065 01:01:22,240 --> 01:01:24,800 I I want all of my kids to know about it and that's my Christmas 1066 01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:26,520 gift to them. I think that's cool. 1067 01:01:26,520 --> 01:01:29,840 I'm, I'm, I'm a ChatGPT subscriber and I've built, I 1068 01:01:29,840 --> 01:01:34,840 think, let's see, three or four different specific models for 1069 01:01:34,840 --> 01:01:37,320 different types of use cases and yeah. 1070 01:01:37,640 --> 01:01:40,120 That's one of the things you can do as a subscriber that you 1071 01:01:40,120 --> 01:01:43,480 can't as a non subscriber and I agree with you, that's really 1072 01:01:43,480 --> 01:01:45,440 important. And I think it's it's a good way 1073 01:01:45,480 --> 01:01:47,400 to learn it. But it's also really interesting 1074 01:01:47,400 --> 01:01:51,000 to see how the the technology is evolving literally right before 1075 01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:53,440 your eyes. And you know it's the ultimate 1076 01:01:53,440 --> 01:01:57,320 low code experience, right? Tell me this, do this and you 1077 01:01:57,320 --> 01:02:00,840 see it take shape. From you it feels, it literally 1078 01:02:00,840 --> 01:02:05,280 feels like the web in 1994. But with better graphics. 1079 01:02:06,200 --> 01:02:09,320 He went better graphics. All right, let's end on a way to 1080 01:02:09,320 --> 01:02:10,320 go. This is definitely one of our 1081 01:02:10,320 --> 01:02:12,120 longer episodes, but I've. I've really enjoyed this 1082 01:02:12,120 --> 01:02:15,160 conversation. Before we started talking, we 1083 01:02:15,160 --> 01:02:18,040 were talking about hobbies and you mentioned that you're into 1084 01:02:18,040 --> 01:02:20,520 bicycles, and they said, OK, well, what kind of bicycles? 1085 01:02:20,520 --> 01:02:23,400 And then you started rattling off a bunch of bicycles. 1086 01:02:23,800 --> 01:02:25,240 Rd. Gravel. 1087 01:02:25,240 --> 01:02:29,480 I've got a Specialized road bike, which is a road bike. 1088 01:02:29,680 --> 01:02:34,360 I've got a Cannondale Quick CR1 which is kind of a gravel bike. 1089 01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:35,680 I've turned it into a gravel bike. 1090 01:02:36,200 --> 01:02:42,920 I've got a Trek Super Commuter plus eight that is AI use it for 1091 01:02:42,920 --> 01:02:44,280 commuting, but it's electric bike. 1092 01:02:44,280 --> 01:02:46,920 I also use it for longer rides like on bike trails and stuff. 1093 01:02:47,280 --> 01:02:50,600 And then I've got an electric bike, mountain bike, which is a 1094 01:02:50,600 --> 01:02:53,560 a Specialized. Oh, now I'm going to forget the 1095 01:02:53,560 --> 01:02:56,360 name of it. Anyway, yeah, all great bikes. 1096 01:02:56,480 --> 01:02:59,080 I I I love all of them. I can't part with any of my 1097 01:02:59,080 --> 01:03:02,600 babies. Why do you need 4 bicycles? 1098 01:03:03,880 --> 01:03:05,720 Well, it kind of depends on the mood you're in, right? 1099 01:03:05,840 --> 01:03:10,880 I mean, sometimes I want to go out on a trail and so I take 1100 01:03:10,880 --> 01:03:14,520 the, the mountain bike, Sometimes I'll take the gravel 1101 01:03:14,520 --> 01:03:16,080 bike. If I'm, you know, feeling 1102 01:03:16,080 --> 01:03:20,000 especially spry, I've kind of, you know, I'm more, I'm more 1103 01:03:20,000 --> 01:03:24,160 prone to take the electric bikes nowadays, I have to admit, you 1104 01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:28,120 know, I find that it is true that the electric bike is less 1105 01:03:28,120 --> 01:03:32,840 work. My running theory is that, and I 1106 01:03:32,840 --> 01:03:37,640 have some data to back this up, is that on a mile per mile basis 1107 01:03:37,640 --> 01:03:41,600 you're doing 65 to 70% of the effort on the electric bike. 1108 01:03:41,600 --> 01:03:44,840 Of course it depends on how high you have it dialed up, but doing 1109 01:03:44,840 --> 01:03:48,840 60 to 70% of the effort on the electric bike that you do on non 1110 01:03:48,840 --> 01:03:52,120 electric bike. But on an hour by hour basis 1111 01:03:52,440 --> 01:03:56,600 it's exactly the same, right? So on a on an hour by hour basis 1112 01:03:57,040 --> 01:03:59,680 I'm doing essentially I'm burning the same amount of 1113 01:03:59,680 --> 01:04:03,360 calories according to my calorie tracker and you know feel the 1114 01:04:03,360 --> 01:04:07,360 same kind of tiredness and and So what that means is the 1115 01:04:07,360 --> 01:04:10,160 electric bike allows you to do more in an hour than you could 1116 01:04:10,160 --> 01:04:12,760 have with a non electric bike which means you get to have more 1117 01:04:12,760 --> 01:04:14,640 fun right? You can go further you can see 1118 01:04:14,640 --> 01:04:17,240 more places. So I do find myself tending more 1119 01:04:17,240 --> 01:04:18,880 towards the electric bike these days. 1120 01:04:19,960 --> 01:04:23,960 All right, bonus lighter note. Jim picked up on the stacks when 1121 01:04:23,960 --> 01:04:27,160 I'm reading the book that, but you might be a Jackson Browne 1122 01:04:27,160 --> 01:04:30,000 fan. And so, Jim, you want to ask, 1123 01:04:30,160 --> 01:04:33,440 ask the Jackson Browne question? Yes, I would tell us your 1124 01:04:33,440 --> 01:04:38,280 favorite Jackson Browne song. But bonus to that question 1A is 1125 01:04:38,280 --> 01:04:40,400 why are you a big Jackson Browne fan? 1126 01:04:41,520 --> 01:04:44,560 Yeah. So, so I'll answer the last 1127 01:04:44,560 --> 01:04:47,080 question first. So I'm a Jackson Browne fan 1128 01:04:47,080 --> 01:04:49,000 because I kind of came to him through the Eagles. 1129 01:04:49,240 --> 01:04:52,400 So I'm also a huge Eagles fan and Jackson Browne and the 1130 01:04:52,400 --> 01:04:54,400 Eagles kind of intersect with each other. 1131 01:04:55,240 --> 01:05:01,000 Jackson Browne and Glenn Frey Frey were roommates when and he 1132 01:05:01,000 --> 01:05:04,600 wrote, oh, oh, now I'm can't forget. 1133 01:05:04,800 --> 01:05:06,800 It's tough getting old. Anyway, he wrote one of the 1134 01:05:06,800 --> 01:05:11,840 Eagles, you know hits and so. So I kind of came to him through 1135 01:05:11,840 --> 01:05:13,600 that, right? Started listening to his music 1136 01:05:15,000 --> 01:05:17,800 and you know, I like it because he's very philosophical. 1137 01:05:17,800 --> 01:05:21,080 So. So I'm going to pick a couple of 1138 01:05:21,080 --> 01:05:26,040 probably less well known songs as my favorites, even though I 1139 01:05:26,040 --> 01:05:29,440 like them all, but but I I like Fountain of Sorrow. 1140 01:05:30,400 --> 01:05:35,360 It's not as well known, but it's it. 1141 01:05:35,360 --> 01:05:41,840 It's about how, you know friends and lovers kind of navigate 1142 01:05:41,840 --> 01:05:44,200 through this kind of, you know, where where they're at in their 1143 01:05:44,200 --> 01:05:49,680 relationships and and you know, it's called found of sorrows 1144 01:05:49,680 --> 01:05:53,120 because this fountain of sorrows springs from your life like a 1145 01:05:53,120 --> 01:05:54,280 fountain in a pool. You know. 1146 01:05:54,280 --> 01:05:57,240 That's the lyrics, right. And I just find his lyrics so, 1147 01:05:57,240 --> 01:05:59,480 so interesting. Yeah. 1148 01:05:59,480 --> 01:06:04,280 The the other bonus which I, I almost no one has heard of is 1149 01:06:04,280 --> 01:06:08,720 lawyers in love, which so, so go listen to it. 1150 01:06:08,800 --> 01:06:12,560 Jackson Browne, Lawyers in love. It's about the Soviet Union 1151 01:06:12,560 --> 01:06:15,240 being turned into vocational land for lawyers in love. 1152 01:06:15,760 --> 01:06:18,440 I I don't know that there's deep philosophy there, but it's 1153 01:06:18,440 --> 01:06:22,480 definitely entertaining so. It's interesting premise, I 1154 01:06:22,480 --> 01:06:26,400 guess. Yeah, I always go back to 1155 01:06:26,440 --> 01:06:30,720 somebody's baby, which was a song in Fast Times at Ridgemont 1156 01:06:30,720 --> 01:06:32,200 High, which. Yeah, yeah, it's. 1157 01:06:32,200 --> 01:06:35,040 Got to rank within my top five movies of all time. 1158 01:06:35,400 --> 01:06:37,400 Yeah, yeah. Well, and the song's great. 1159 01:06:37,400 --> 01:06:39,920 I mean, it's very light hearted. It's not as philosophical as 1160 01:06:39,920 --> 01:06:43,040 many of many others of his songs, but yeah. 1161 01:06:43,880 --> 01:06:45,560 All right, we'll go ahead and wrap it up for this week. 1162 01:06:45,600 --> 01:06:48,240 I know we've spent some extra time here with you, Phil, but 1163 01:06:48,240 --> 01:06:51,160 really appreciate it. I'm gonna have links in our show 1164 01:06:51,160 --> 01:06:54,680 notes. So phil.winley.org is your 1165 01:06:54,680 --> 01:06:57,040 website. The book is called Learning 1166 01:06:57,040 --> 01:06:59,680 Digital Identity. We'll have a link to that for 1167 01:06:59,680 --> 01:07:01,400 for Amazon for people to check that out. 1168 01:07:01,800 --> 01:07:04,920 I guess try and find the Jackson Browne's Easter eggs, maybe 1169 01:07:05,040 --> 01:07:06,720 through it. Yeah. 1170 01:07:07,680 --> 01:07:09,680 And then, yeah, we'll wrap it up for this week. 1171 01:07:09,960 --> 01:07:13,680 You can find Jim and I on the web at idacpodcast.com or on 1172 01:07:13,680 --> 01:07:17,080 Twitter at IDAC Podcasts on Mastodon. 1173 01:07:17,200 --> 01:07:20,600 Speaking of self, sovereign slash decentralized at IDAC 1174 01:07:20,640 --> 01:07:22,840 podcast, at Infosec, dot exchange. 1175 01:07:23,160 --> 01:07:25,360 And of course you can connect with Jim and I on LinkedIn. 1176 01:07:25,720 --> 01:07:28,840 And yeah, let us know, you know, what you think of the episode 1177 01:07:28,840 --> 01:07:31,680 and subscribe like you know, all that jazz. 1178 01:07:32,000 --> 01:07:33,680 And Jim, anything you want to close with? 1179 01:07:34,760 --> 01:07:38,640 Yeah, I wanted to close with, we got a mention from Lindsay Dunn, 1180 01:07:39,040 --> 01:07:42,760 who is somebody that I met at Octane this year. 1181 01:07:42,960 --> 01:07:48,320 She's a identity consultant out of Germany and she just 1182 01:07:48,320 --> 01:07:51,280 mentioned, thank you Jim McDonald and Jeff Seidman, your 1183 01:07:51,400 --> 01:07:56,040 podcast is the best. She was writing about the the 1184 01:07:56,040 --> 01:08:01,480 episode that we did with Jason Rebholtz of Corvis Insurance and 1185 01:08:01,480 --> 01:08:03,360 just how much she had taken away. 1186 01:08:03,360 --> 01:08:06,280 I mean it was quite at the write up, so I know you got tagged, 1187 01:08:06,480 --> 01:08:09,600 you'll see it as well. But she just mentioned that our 1188 01:08:09,600 --> 01:08:12,120 podcast is the best, so we'll just leave it at that. 1189 01:08:12,600 --> 01:08:15,040 I'm not gonna argue with that. I mean that's that's, that's, 1190 01:08:15,040 --> 01:08:16,800 that's that's an opinion and we'll take it as fact. 1191 01:08:16,800 --> 01:08:18,640 How about that? So, yeah, thanks for that. 1192 01:08:18,640 --> 01:08:20,760 Stuff like that is cool when we see it out in the world. 1193 01:08:20,760 --> 01:08:23,760 And yeah, keeps us going. So, all right, good mention. 1194 01:08:23,760 --> 01:08:25,160 We'll go ahead and wrap it up for this week. 1195 01:08:25,399 --> 01:08:28,240 Thanks everyone for listening and we'll talk with Y'all in the 1196 01:08:28,240 --> 01:08:31,680 next one. You've been listening to 1197 01:08:31,680 --> 01:08:35,600 Identity at the Center. We hope you've enjoyed the show. 1198 01:08:35,760 --> 01:08:40,000 Make sure to like, rate and review and we'll be back soon. 1199 01:08:40,120 --> 01:08:42,439 But in the meantime, hit the website at 1200 01:08:42,439 --> 01:08:49,520 identity@thecenter.com and find us on Twitter at IDAC Podcast. 1201 01:08:49,960 --> 01:08:54,080 See you next time on Identity at the Center.