1
00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,400
If you go to a mom and pop shop 
and say, hey, bring your own 

2
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identity, they're just going to 
be looking at you. 

3
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Like, yeah, sure. 
Here's my driver's license, 

4
00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:10,120
Yeah. 
Exactly. 

5
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Here's my passport. 
Yeah, have fun, right. 

6
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And then it is the the matter of
how do you actually control who 

7
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has which access is in your 
system. 

8
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So let's say you on board a 
partner, they are predominantly 

9
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doing something, some 
infrastructure project for you. 

10
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How do you ensure that that 
project doesn't give them access

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to, to confidential information?
If you have a milk supplier who,

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who brings in fresh milk every 
day, right? 

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How do you make sure that they 
have access to their sales 

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numbers and and all that, but 
can't see the the competitive 

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competitors information? 
So. 

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So yeah. 
So Eve Mailer was on the stage 

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yesterday. 
She talks about treating 

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identity as a product, right? 
Because you have all these 

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different stakeholders who want 
different things and essentially

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become a product manager. 
You know, you're a security 

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practitioner in one sense, but 
you're also thinking about 

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marketing and the the customer 
experience and prioritizing 

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that. 
Did a lot of what she talked 

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about yesterday bring true from 
your perspective of how do I 

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balance all these stakeholders 
to get to what I'm going to be 

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releasing next month? 
From an enhancement perspective,

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how do you keep up with the 
authentication or the delegated 

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administration or hey, the users
are having a problem with this, 

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like how do you balance all 
that? 

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This is identity at the center 
if it has anything to do with 

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IAM. 
This is the go to podcast now 

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your hosts Jim McDonald and Jeff
Steadman. 

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Welcome to the Identity Center 
Podcast. 

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I'm Jeff, and that's Jim. 
Hey, Jim. 

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Hey. 
Jeff, how are you? 

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Oh, not so bad yourself. 
Doing great EIC 2025. 

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Berlin, Germany. 
We made it to the stage. 

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We made it to We're on the 
keynote stage. 

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We are on the keynote stage with
an audience of literally four 

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people. 
I think. 

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Yes, exactly. 
So, yeah, good time. 

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So thank you very much to 
Marina, who is just over there 

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behind the camera. 
Give us a thumbs up for helping 

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us set this up. 
Obviously, Martin, for, you 

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know, inviting us out here and 
it's been a great conference so 

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far for first time being in 
Berlin, first time being at AIC,

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I'm sure. 
No surprise, this is one of the 

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best organized conferences I've 
ever been to. 

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Everything's like clockwork. 
And you know me, the snacks. 

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Let me do a rating of the snacks
right now. 

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Fantastico the the cooler with 
the soda. 

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Pop, that's the highlight for me
because I don't drink coffee, I 

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don't drink tea, but if there's 
cola or something like that 

54
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where I can get my coffee, 
chips, orange soda, thumbs up 

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for that. 
I will say I'm so far been 

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disappointed by one thing and 
that is the lack of cookies. 

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I everyone knows I judge the 
conference on the quality of 

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their cookies and I have not 
seen a cookie yet. 

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Maybe they'll make an 
appearance. 

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This is only two. 
Different cookies here they're 

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they're over by the coffee. 
That's a problem. 

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OK all. 
Right, I stand corrected. 

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Apologies to. 
Wonderful butter cookies this 

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morning. 
Oh, you missed out. 

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OK. 
All right, why don't we get into

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it? 
Because we have our gentleman 

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guest sitting here next to us. 
He is Jerome Thorsensen. 

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He is the I am architect with 
Selling group. 

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We're going to find out what 
that means, but welcome to the 

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show. 
Thanks. 

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So thank you guys for having me.
It's been a pleasure to meet you

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in in life a long time listener.
So I was really psyched when you

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guys reached out and and asked 
me to come on the show. 

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Well. 
We're so appreciative you taking

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00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:03,400
the time. 
I know that this is a busy time.

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You're going to be giving a a 
presentation I think later this 

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00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:07,520
week we're going to talk about 
that. 

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00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:09,920
But if you're a listener, you 
know what our first question is 

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going to be. 
Oh yes. 

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How did you get into identity? 
Is it something that you chose 

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or did it choose you? 
I think we kind of trauma bonded

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identity and, and I so back in 
the day, I started out as a 

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techie, I was heavy into 
infrastructure, servers, some 

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network firewalls, all that 
stuff. 

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And if you asked me like 10 
years ago that if I saw a future

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00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:42,240
in I am, I might have been 
smiling and saying, Nah, that's 

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just user management right? 
Then I I've got on boards doing 

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00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:54,360
cybersecurity, did a pen test on
a fairly big international 

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client and to my horror I was 
like 5 minutes in doing it 

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enumeration on Active Directory 
where I started pulling out 

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passwords and clear text in the 
description fields and found 

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custom attributes with initial 
password set. 

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So people always hear about this
story, right? 

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Oh, there's clear text 
passwords. 

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Yeah, it is legit. 
It happens in real life. 

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00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:22,720
Oh yes, Oh yes, to this day it. 
Still happens. 

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So for people not familiar with 
selling group, give us a little 

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00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:27,520
bit about what selling group is.
And I just realized my 

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00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:29,760
microphone was like over here. 
So I'm going to try to make this

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a little bit better for me. 
Yeah. 

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So selling group is kind of a 
fun size. 

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So to to compare it for the US 
listeners, it is kind of like 

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having a parent company that 
operates Target, operates 

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Nordstrom, operates LD, Trader 
Joe's, stuff like that, right. 

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So we have 5 major labels that 
we fully own. 

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And then we do franchises for 
stuff like Starbucks, we do some

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flowers, food delivery servers, 
fresh fish to your doorstep, 

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stuff like that. 
And we are located in 

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Scandinavia, so we have the HQ 
in Denmark. 

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We are represented here in 
Germany, Poland, and we just 

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acquired Remy Baltic, so now 
we're in the Baltics as well, 

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heavily. 
So it's a small company is what 

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you're. 
Trying to say small company 

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72,000 employees. 
Oh, that's it. 

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All right. 
Yeah. 

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So tell us about you're here to 
present. 

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You'll be on this very stage 
Friday, right? 

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Yeah. 
And you're going to be talking 

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about securing and navigating B 
to B. 

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00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:50,800
So that's. 
Your focus within the identity 

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00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:55,400
suites, Well, tell us about 
that, that presentation, what is

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the main topic? 
Oh, I'm, I'm going to be 

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standing here on the stage and, 
and sharing my, my pain points 

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with the managing B2B. 
So basically it is all about how

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do you take your supply chain 
and making sure that they are 

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just as compliant and as, as 
secure as you are, because it, 

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it comes down to, to trust at 
the moment. 

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Then we have the the NS-2 
hitting us. 

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It's just a past as a law in 
Denmark like 2 weeks ago or 

130
00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:32,920
something like that. 
So it is the whole how do you 

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fast track and this to 
implementation? 

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How do you make sure that you 
have cybersecurity resilience 

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within your supply chain and how
do you on board and off board 

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00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:48,240
vendors because we have 
everything from small mom and 

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00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:51,640
pop shops to to big corporate 
climates. 

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So I knew said the the title of 
your presentation starts with 

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00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:00,200
identity first, which I think 
really means their identity at 

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the centre. 
I think they're somewhat 

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00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:05,760
interchangeable. 
Feel free to disagree with that,

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00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:10,960
but why did you start the 
presentation title identity 

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first? 
Well, because I'm a strong 

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00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:17,840
believer that the identity first
approach is the key in this 

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00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:21,320
modern tech stack we we worked 
in today. 

144
00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:24,080
I mean, we don't have any 
perimeters anymore. 

145
00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:27,280
We moved everything or slowly 
moving everything to, to the 

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00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:30,080
cloud. 
So that parameter is long gone. 

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00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:33,600
And that's why you you need to 
kind of look at. 

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So how can I manage security and
what are the, this, this stuff I

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00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:45,600
can deal with, right? 
So for us it is definitely 

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identities. 
We can manage and control access

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on identities and on devices and
all that more easily today than 

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00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:02,520
than just applying the old logic
of perimeter first rank. 

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00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:06,600
So there's a lot of, I guess, 
struggle sometimes where you 

154
00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:11,240
have these external partners and
I guess how do you make sure 

155
00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:13,760
that they're on board with what 
it is that you're doing? 

156
00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:18,200
So, you know, it's a challenge 
is you've set up this, you know,

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00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:20,960
maybe it's a federation or maybe
you're studying up SAML or open 

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00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:24,680
ID connect or whatever it may 
be, but you're still reliant on 

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the vendor, the partner, the B 
to B side of things or B, you 

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00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:31,760
know, whatever it may be to 
actually hook up and then follow

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your own policies and standards.
How do you essentially train 

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your partners to do it that way 
with you? 

163
00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:40,520
Oh, it's a headache. 
It's a headache. 

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00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,400
No so, so you usually if you 
look at retail, we are really 

165
00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:47,400
good at doing something like 
private label or white labeling 

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stuff. 
So instead of a fully on boarded

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partner, we could potentially 
say, let's say we have a line of

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00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:00,920
products that we sell at a 
discounted price because it's 

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our brand, but all the, all the 
product descriptions and 

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00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:10,560
everything we get from whoever 
made the product. 

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So we would like to onboard them
and say, OK, so if any product 

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changes happens, then you have 
the ability to to go in and and 

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00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:22,800
edit this. 
I won't say real time, but but 

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close to, to real time, right? 
And the thing here is for a big 

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company or supplier, it is 
easier for them to hook up to 

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doing single sign on or Samo or 
something like that, right? 

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And that's perfectly fine. 
But if you go to a mom and pop 

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shop and say, hey, bring your 
own identity, they're just going

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to be looking at you. 
Like, yeah, sure. 

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Here's my driver's license 
exactly. 

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Here's. 
My passport have fun right and 

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then it is the the matter of how
do you actually control who has 

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00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:06,880
which access is in your system. 
So let's say you on board a 

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00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:11,920
partner, they are predominantly 
doing some some infrastructure 

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project for you. 
How do you ensure that that 

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project doesn't give them access
to to confidential information? 

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If you have a milk supplier who 
who brings in fresh milk every 

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00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:29,680
day, right? 
How do you make sure that they 

189
00:11:29,680 --> 00:11:35,320
have access to their sales 
numbers and and all that, but 

190
00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:39,280
can't see the the competitive 
competitors information? 

191
00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:41,080
So. 
So yeah. 

192
00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:44,240
So Eve Mailer was on the stage 
yesterday. 

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00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:48,800
She talks about treating 
identity as a product, right? 

194
00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:51,480
Because you have all these 
different stakeholders who want 

195
00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:55,480
different things and essentially
become a product manager. 

196
00:11:55,560 --> 00:11:59,320
You know, you're a security 
practitioner in one sense, but 

197
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you're also thinking about 
marketing and the the customer 

198
00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:06,840
experience and prioritizing 
that. 

199
00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:10,080
Did a lot of what she talked 
about yesterday bring true from 

200
00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:13,440
your perspective of how do I 
balance all these stakeholders 

201
00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:18,800
to get to what I'm going to be 
releasing next month? 

202
00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:22,600
From an enhancement perspective,
how do you keep up with the 

203
00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:27,800
authentication or the delegated 
administration or hey, the users

204
00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:30,800
are having a problem with this, 
like how do you balance all 

205
00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:34,960
that? 
It rings true in, in my world, I

206
00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:41,960
am a firm believer that you can 
actually put I am as a business 

207
00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:47,760
enabler. 
So it's, it's, it's kind of a 

208
00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:53,000
fun balance you are looking at 
we. 

209
00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:55,160
So no, actually let me rephrase 
that. 

210
00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:58,720
So what we're looking to do is 
providing our vendors with a 

211
00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:03,760
self-service portal. 
So let's say you buy or get 

212
00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:07,960
access for for 10 people in your
organization to have access to 

213
00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:12,640
to our system. 
For whatever reason, we would 

214
00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:16,320
actually prefer to give 
self-service portal saying here 

215
00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:21,120
is the general framework. 
This is how we run business and 

216
00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:26,200
we are going to rely on you 
managing your employees access. 

217
00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:30,320
We are just sitting in the 
background on doing the final 

218
00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:31,680
tracks right. 
That's right. 

219
00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:34,520
Now, Jerome, this is the one 
thing that I was interested in. 

220
00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:38,320
I had a chance to talk to Eve 
was all right, as as the 

221
00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:40,720
identity practitioner, the owner
of identity. 

222
00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:47,200
Is it my responsibility to, you 
know, kind of work with all 

223
00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:50,640
these folks and take all their 
inputs, get them to work with 

224
00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:53,880
each other and understand? 
Because one of the keywords she 

225
00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:57,000
had in her presentation 
yesterday was to get the 

226
00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:59,760
stakeholders to empathize with 
the needs of the other 

227
00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:01,880
stakeholders. 
In other words, marketing to 

228
00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:05,160
understand the needs of security
and vice versa, which I thought 

229
00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:09,920
was tremendously insightful. 
But I wonder, is it our job to 

230
00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:13,080
kind of orchestrate and to 
facilitate all of that? 

231
00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:17,320
It seems to fall on us a lot. 
It falls on us a lot, yes. 

232
00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:21,240
And I, I'm also a firm believer 
that it is part of our 

233
00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:27,880
responsibility because I believe
that we are kind of in a unique 

234
00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:32,400
situation where we understand 
where they're coming from and we

235
00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:35,720
know where they're heading and, 
and stuff like that. 

236
00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:44,240
So we are kind of the, the in 
between a lot of vendors and us 

237
00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:48,720
and our suppliers, right. 
So we're kind of navigating this

238
00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:51,720
as that's collaboration. 
Yeah, well. 

239
00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:53,200
Let me pull something else out 
there. 

240
00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:56,960
What happens if no if? 
If you don't do it, who does? 

241
00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:00,480
If the I am person doesn't do it
except who's doing it? 

242
00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:05,360
That's why I think we usually 
wind up because I think I am or 

243
00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:09,360
identity, digital identity 
attracts a lot of people who 

244
00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:11,120
are. 
Not a good looking people. 

245
00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:13,960
Yeah, identity, people of the 
greatest. 

246
00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:16,960
Let's, let's just start there. 
No, I think a lot of people who 

247
00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:19,800
are are leaders. 
I think being a leader in 

248
00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:22,560
today's day and age isn't just 
barking out orders. 

249
00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:27,480
It's getting people to the 
table, getting them to empathize

250
00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:29,560
with one another. 
And I think it's just natural 

251
00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:31,840
for many of us to step into that
role. 

252
00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:38,240
So basically leading without Oh,
what's it called without? 

253
00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:39,680
Leading without title. 
Right. 

254
00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:41,480
Exactly. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

255
00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:44,200
Yeah. 
So no, I think there is the 

256
00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:48,480
whole human aspect of it. 
And I think if you look at the 

257
00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:51,840
classical set up where you have 
security, they are more 

258
00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:54,880
compliance based. 
They are more, these are the 

259
00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:58,840
rules, stay within the 
boundaries we set and go have 

260
00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:01,320
fun. 
And we are kind of more 

261
00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:03,000
concerned with, yeah, that's 
fine. 

262
00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:07,240
But we we also need to to put a 
human angle on it and be like, 

263
00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:10,840
OK, but this will affect you in 
this and this this way. 

264
00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:16,880
And if it is very bad, it's 
simply us who's going to be 

265
00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:20,480
having that conversation with 
security and say, OK, guys, we 

266
00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:22,800
know this is best practice, but 
come on. 

267
00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:27,480
If we need to to get our 
day-to-day jobs to work, can we 

268
00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:30,880
relax this policy a little bit 
and then enforce it? 

269
00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:32,480
Yeah. 
Try to negotiate. 

270
00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:35,720
Yeah, exactly. 
So I wanted to point something 

271
00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:41,920
else out that you wrote an 
article last year and it's so if

272
00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:44,160
folks connect to you on 
LinkedIn, they can see you 

273
00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:46,600
posted it and get to the 
article. 

274
00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:50,520
But it was about A back in the 
context of B to B. 

275
00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:54,360
And I think you called it a game
changer. 

276
00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:58,720
And I wanted to ask you why do 
you think a back is game changer

277
00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:02,240
which is attribute based access 
control? 

278
00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:05,680
Yeah, so we we've all been 
messing around with role based 

279
00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:08,119
access control for for years 
now, right. 

280
00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:10,560
It came out in the 90s. 
The struggle is. 

281
00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:12,359
Real in the years. 
Yeah, exactly. 

282
00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:18,400
So no, what I'm my approach was 
I was managing a huge stack of 

283
00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:23,640
security groups. 
So if you do the classical RBAC,

284
00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:28,079
you have one security group that
links to an application and and 

285
00:17:28,079 --> 00:17:33,960
role within the application. 
Now imagine you have two and a 

286
00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:38,600
half thousand stores already. 
You, you just bought, you just 

287
00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:42,560
had two and a half thousand 
security roles by default. 

288
00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:48,480
Now Add all the applications. 
Let's just pick a #1600. 

289
00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:51,960
We'll see how that that spins 
out of control real fast, right?

290
00:17:53,120 --> 00:17:57,600
To to put some real world 
numbers on I'm I'm managing just

291
00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:00,720
close to 61,000 users at the 
moment. 

292
00:18:02,360 --> 00:18:04,320
And that's just that. 
Is that everybody? 

293
00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:06,600
Is that B to B? 
Is no, that's, that's, that's 

294
00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:13,320
core employees. 
OK, Yeah, I have 67,000 security

295
00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:15,520
groups. 
Which sounds about right. 

296
00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:17,960
You have more security groups 
and you have users. 

297
00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:20,080
That's totally normal part. 
Exactly. 

298
00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:24,280
But if you don't flip, flip it 
and go to ABAC, then you're 

299
00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:28,640
looking at attributes. 
So now you can do stuff more 

300
00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:32,000
dynamically. 
So you don't have this rigid 

301
00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:36,360
security group structure. 
You don't end up with security 

302
00:18:36,360 --> 00:18:39,760
groups nested in security groups
because that's how we did it in 

303
00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:41,680
the old days, right? 
I can't believe anybody would 

304
00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:42,920
ever do that. 
That doesn't happen. 

305
00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:45,720
You're at full of battle scars 
here. 

306
00:18:47,360 --> 00:18:49,920
So how do you track? 
So attribute based access 

307
00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:54,640
control is obviously very 
dependent on attributes, data, 

308
00:18:55,360 --> 00:18:58,320
data quality, data timeliness, 
all that stuff. 

309
00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:02,520
How do you manage getting that 
data into a spot where you are 

310
00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:06,200
comfortable to say, OK, yeah, 
attribute, we've got it and we 

311
00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:09,360
can automate or make policy 
decisions off it, whatever that 

312
00:19:09,360 --> 00:19:11,640
may be. 
But talk about the data part of 

313
00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:13,040
the attribute side and how you 
manage that. 

314
00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:20,840
Honestly, it's it is a struggle.
So we all know the the pain of 

315
00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:22,960
having clear and concise data, 
right? 

316
00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:29,120
So first of all, it's the 
wonderful discussion with the HR

317
00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:31,840
on what attributes we use for, 
for what, right. 

318
00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:38,440
Then it is in our situation 
where we have a third of our 

319
00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:44,160
workforce that is 18 or younger.
We also have some, some privacy 

320
00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:45,960
issues. 
So we don't want to pull in too 

321
00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:50,640
much information, just enough. 
And based on that subset of data

322
00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:57,000
we have, we, we do our very best
to, to say, OK, how much of this

323
00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:59,360
can we actually control on pure 
ABAC? 

324
00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:03,320
How much of this needs to be 
reliant on RBAC? 

325
00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,720
It's that happy mix of these two
that we, we live in. 

326
00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:11,480
So we, we can't sit here and 
say, Oh yeah, we're purely a 

327
00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:13,680
back. 
Because honestly, I don't think 

328
00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:19,240
it's ever going to happen. 
But if you have, let's say, 9 

329
00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:22,920
predefined roles in your 
organization, well, that is a 

330
00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:28,880
perfect fit for, for our back. 
And then you can always tighten 

331
00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:31,280
security and and find a sweet 
spot with a back. 

332
00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:34,880
Yeah. 
You know, I've kind of an out of

333
00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:38,600
band question for that, but I 
was thinking, so really it's the

334
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,080
you have the delegate 
administration, so the customers

335
00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:44,680
say, well, I just hired this new
person. 

336
00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:49,920
That's got to also be you've got
to have high volume in terms of 

337
00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:52,720
turnover. 
I would imagine that's a big 

338
00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:57,920
part of what you deal with. 
But so let me get to my question

339
00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:00,480
first. 
So I was wondering because most 

340
00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:06,280
of your footprint is in Europe, 
so many different languages, do 

341
00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:10,160
you do all the front end with 
English only? 

342
00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:14,720
Because I would think as you get
out to retail in maybe some of 

343
00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:19,520
the more rural areas, people 
don't speak English maybe. 

344
00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:25,800
So I'm in that lucky position 
where we we're in a company 

345
00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:29,320
where we said our company 
language is English. 

346
00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:31,560
So that makes my life a little 
easier. 

347
00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:35,800
OK. 
But fortunately we are heavily 

348
00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:38,760
represented here in in Germany 
and and and Poland and they're 

349
00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:43,200
fairly good at at English. 
So, so it's not a huge issue, 

350
00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:47,080
but we do run into it and then 
we rely on on people in the 

351
00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:50,840
store just to get back on the 
other party you. 

352
00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:53,000
Mentioned the high turnover. 
Yeah. 

353
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:57,480
So we do have a high turnover 
just before summer break. 

354
00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:03,120
We on board something like 2 1/2
thousand employees and our mid 

355
00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:07,200
of August they're heading out 
the door again. 

356
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:13,520
So, so yeah, we, we actually 
have vendors compare us to 

357
00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:17,520
something like universities in 
the, in our approach to, to on 

358
00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:22,600
board and off board people. 
That's got to be a busy time. 

359
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:24,320
No one can take vacation then, 
right? 

360
00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:27,240
Well, the in Europe that would 
be tough to say. 

361
00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:29,080
No one take vacation in August, 
right? 

362
00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:30,440
Oh yeah, yeah, that's not going 
to happen. 

363
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:32,200
That's not the vacation's 
happening. 

364
00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:32,840
That's for sure. 
Right. 

365
00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:33,920
Yeah. 
No. 

366
00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:39,320
But I mean, I think a rule of 
thumb is we we do something like

367
00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:42,840
turnover between 200 and 500 
employees a month. 

368
00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:46,200
So it's a big river balding 
door, yeah. 

369
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:48,840
How do you manage those 
terminations? 

370
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,440
Do you keep them around for a 
certain amount of time? 

371
00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:54,000
I guess you know, there's 
probably errors that are made 

372
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:56,040
sometimes, like, oh, didn't mean
to terminate this person or 

373
00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:57,680
there's a change in mind and 
they come back. 

374
00:22:58,120 --> 00:23:00,400
Do you totally deconstruct the 
ID? 

375
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,160
Do you put it into some sort of 
dormant status for a little bit?

376
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:06,400
How does the management of the 
ID behind the scenes work? 

377
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:10,280
Well, that's the the great thing
about the GDPR. 

378
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:14,800
So we just lean up against the 
framework saying, OK, generally 

379
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,280
we keep you around for 30 days. 
So let's say you're terminated 

380
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,200
on your current contract because
you're starting in a new store 

381
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,880
or something. 
So we off bought you on the last

382
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:29,240
day of the month and, and the 
night before you start again, 

383
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:32,440
we, we basically strip you down 
and, and build you up again with

384
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:34,480
your new role. 
And I don't see. 

385
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:39,400
And then we have a rule saying 
we, we don't keep user data 

386
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:43,560
around for, for more than the, 
the absolute amount of time we 

387
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:45,600
needed. 
So 30 days, give or take. 

388
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:48,520
OK. 
Sounds like one of those 

389
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:52,160
situations where the compliance 
is also in line with doing 

390
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,200
things more securely. 
I think sometimes folks think 

391
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:56,960
it's one or the other. 
Yeah. 

392
00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,360
No, it's you. 
You got to find the sweet spot 

393
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:04,000
between the compliance and and 
usability, right? 

394
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:10,640
Because I mean, there's no sense
in off boarding, let's say 500 

395
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:16,280
on the last day of the month 
just to to rebuild them the day 

396
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:18,400
after. 
Yeah, totally. 

397
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,240
Yeah, I mean e-mail addresses 
and stuff like that, you would 

398
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:25,560
definitely hit that magic dorm 
and state on the e-mail address 

399
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:27,000
saying, oh, it's already been 
assigned. 

400
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,360
You can't have your own e-mail 
address, e-mail address back and

401
00:24:29,360 --> 00:24:31,680
stuff like that. 
How do you handle duplicates? 

402
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:33,520
A number? 
A middle initial? 

403
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,520
Different spelling of the name? 
Oh, I'm picking a, I'm picking a

404
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:37,640
wound here it sounds like, 
right? 

405
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:39,280
Yeah, tough. 
Questions here. 

406
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:43,640
Yeah. 
So, so no, luckily what we, we 

407
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:49,560
do is we say depending on which 
position you're hired in, then 

408
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,320
you are given an e-mail address 
or not. 

409
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:55,800
So if you're just stuck in 
shelves, you might not need an 

410
00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:58,800
e-mail address. 
So that helps us a long way. 

411
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:03,560
But yes, we're stuck in the same
situation as everybody else with

412
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,440
your name, some random number or
something, right? 

413
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:08,440
OK. 
Yeah. 

414
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,360
I want to talk a little bit 
about IGA because you're one of 

415
00:25:11,360 --> 00:25:15,720
the few people that I snooped on
that has done IGA twice. 

416
00:25:16,120 --> 00:25:19,120
So you had an IGA product and 
we're like, this isn't about 

417
00:25:19,120 --> 00:25:20,600
product, this is more about the 
shift. 

418
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,520
So at some point there was a 
decision made to say, OK, this 

419
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:27,040
IGA isn't meeting our needs and 
we need to move to this other 

420
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:29,480
IGA, whatever that might be. 
I think a lot of people are 

421
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:31,800
probably in this state where 
they're like, OK, well, when you

422
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,160
essentially pull the plug and 
say, OK, it's not it's time to 

423
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:36,680
RIP that Band-Aid off or do 
whatever. 

424
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:39,480
Talk to me a little bit about 
the that transition. 

425
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,240
How did you make the decision? 
What was the decision like? 

426
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,200
You know, as an organization 
said, OK, it's time to move from

427
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,560
one platform to another. 
And for people who are out there

428
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:50,800
listening, you know, what are 
some tips that they should be 

429
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,000
thinking about if they're 
considering, you know, that 

430
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,600
journey? 
Yeah, well, you guys are 

431
00:25:55,600 --> 00:26:00,120
consultants. 
So you, you've seen all the, the

432
00:26:00,120 --> 00:26:03,240
fun stuff that people use to, to
an IGA system, right? 

433
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,800
So what ours was what I would 
consider legacy. 

434
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,200
It was around 10 plus years old,
right? 

435
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:15,320
They had basically mangled the 
system to do anything from Weld 

436
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,360
underwater to brew your coffee 
to do your I am. 

437
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:19,920
So it's very custom then? 
Oh yeah. 

438
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:21,760
Which means it's going to be 
hard to find something that's 

439
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:23,880
apples to apples or a straight 
comparison. 

440
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:29,040
And I do have a consultancy 
background and I love the whole 

441
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:33,000
concept of keeping it lean and 
keeping it close to whatever 

442
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,360
commercially off the shelf 
product you have, right. 

443
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:43,240
And I, I am a big advocate for 
keeping stuff agnostic. 

444
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,920
So if you want to go ahead and 
change the, the engine of your, 

445
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:54,400
your IM in in three years time, 
then you should be able to swap 

446
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:59,080
that engine fairly easily. 
And that was kind of one of the 

447
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,280
drivers for for this because we 
were looking at a legacy 

448
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:05,040
product. 
We are looking at an 

449
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:10,600
organization that was moving 
into, I would say cloud first 

450
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:13,600
strategy. 
So we suddenly were in a 

451
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:17,600
situation where we needed to 
either create custom connectors 

452
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:23,080
or switch a product and say, OK,
should we actually get ahead of 

453
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:27,400
this and say if the organization
is adopting a cloud first 

454
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,720
strategy, let's jump on that 
wave and see what we can 

455
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:34,800
actually do and what we can 
actually achieve and manage 

456
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:42,080
users in a smarter way. 
So if I should give a tip, then 

457
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:50,400
it's all about knowing what you 
have and it's about looking at 

458
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:55,720
where you want to go. 
And then MVPS, minimal viable 

459
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:59,840
products all the way. 
I mean if you do it right you 

460
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:01,720
can do a transition in like 6 
weeks. 

461
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:03,920
That's pretty quick. 
Oh yeah. 

462
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:08,640
But but if you know what you 
have and where you want to go, 

463
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:13,080
it is a fairly simple exercise 
and saying OK, so how do I get 

464
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,320
there? 
How ruthless do you need to be 

465
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:18,440
when you're making that 
transition to plan to say we are

466
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:20,520
not going to carry this over to 
the new system? 

467
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:25,160
Oh, good question. 
I was Mr. Unpopular. 

468
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:27,440
Let's just put a little bit like
that. 

469
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,440
So. 
So yeah, I got very good at 

470
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,560
saying no. 
So what? 

471
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:35,600
Gave you the confidence to say 
no, though, because I think 

472
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:38,320
there's this natural desire to 
say yes. 

473
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:40,600
Let's figure out how we can do 
that, yes. 

474
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:45,400
How do you say no in a way that 
hopefully keeps keeps people 

475
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,400
relatively happy? 
What's the diplomatic response 

476
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:47,880
there to say? 
No. 

477
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,720
So, so the diplomatic response 
is you listen to their their 

478
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:56,720
issues, you figure out with them
whether or not it is something 

479
00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:00,320
that the organization needs and 
then you road map it. 

480
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:08,360
So I'm not sitting here telling 
everybody to to give a hug. 

481
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:09,720
No, because that's not going to 
fly. 

482
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:11,880
I would be out of the job same 
day. 

483
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,640
You give them a soft no, saying 
it's not going to happen right 

484
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:21,520
now. 
But in phase 234 it might be of 

485
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,560
interest re exploring this, this
idea, right. 

486
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:30,760
So phase rollouts King. 
I think a big emphasis here DIC 

487
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:33,400
has been on the identity fabric,
right? 

488
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:37,840
And I, I feel like it's more of 
an emphasis maybe in Europe than

489
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:42,560
the US where maybe the emphasis 
is more product focused. 

490
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:47,000
Do you feel like that's true? 
And then what's your take on the

491
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,320
identity fabric? 
Is that an important concept for

492
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,360
you? 
Oh yes, it's definitely an 

493
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:58,160
important concept for me. 
I'm a firm believer of that if 

494
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,560
we are smart about it and we go 
the identity identity first 

495
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:09,240
route and we we focus on how we 
manage identities and what kind 

496
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:13,440
of shared signals we can get, we
will be in a much better place 

497
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:22,000
than than where we are today. 
Honestly, I, I don't necessarily

498
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:23,600
care about which product does 
what. 

499
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:28,960
A vendor as a vendor, there's 
going to be new ones tomorrow. 

500
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,720
They are getting smarter. 
And at the rate that we are 

501
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:38,800
applying agnostic AI to, to 
everything these days, who knows

502
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:40,160
what's just around the corner, 
right? 

503
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:44,000
Yeah. 
Every product is like now with 

504
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,960
100% more AI and before it was 
100% more zero trust and before 

505
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,320
that was more, you know, 
whatever the the security did 

506
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,360
you return was. 
So, yeah, so whatever opened us 

507
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:56,480
opened up the company wallet, 
right? 

508
00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:58,040
And today it's AI. 
So yeah. 

509
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:01,480
It's kind of. 
Yeah, to your .0 trust then. 

510
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:05,400
Before that I was thinking REST 
API, REST API and. 

511
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:08,920
It was blockchain was like The 
thing is a revolutionized 

512
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,520
There's so many buzzwords. 
I want to ramp up the 

513
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:13,840
conversation. 
On a later note here, I did more

514
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:18,200
LinkedIn spying and I noticed 
that you're from the Caribbean. 

515
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,040
The Caribbean. 
How does a native say it? 

516
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:24,360
Well, I say it as being from the
Caribbean. 

517
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:28,280
The Caribbean, OK, what's the 
best thing about being from the 

518
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:29,840
Caribbean? 
What's the worst thing about 

519
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:31,960
being from that area? 
And for people who aren't 

520
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,080
familiar, kind of maybe explain 
geographically where the 

521
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:38,920
Caribbean is? 
So geographically, I will say 

522
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:43,160
all the islands and north of the
Venezuela and up towards 

523
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:46,400
Florida, that's kind of what I, 
I grew together as being the 

524
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:52,640
Caribbean, right? 
And I would say one of the, the 

525
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:57,720
best things about it, about it 
is this sense of belonging, the,

526
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:04,120
the close relationships. 
It's more about the the person 

527
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:06,040
than than the job, stuff like 
that. 

528
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,200
The worst part is I run on 
Caribbean time. 

529
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:13,520
So what we don't fix today, we 
fix tomorrow if we get around 

530
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:14,880
it. 
So yeah. 

531
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:18,200
I would think it was. 
I was, I was expecting you to 

532
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,160
say flying home for Christmas, 
Cost of fortune. 

533
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:23,560
Everybody wants to be there 
then. 

534
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,840
Oh yeah, yeah, but but no, it's,
it's not too bad. 

535
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:32,160
So going back to the Caribbean, 
yes, it does cost a little, 

536
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:34,360
especially here from, from your 
right. 

537
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,840
But if you're smart about it, 
then it's not too bad. 

538
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:39,480
How? 
How often do you go back? 

539
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,800
I try to go back every other 
year, yeah. 

540
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:48,480
But, you know, COVID and all 
that kind of screw over those 

541
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:51,160
plans. 
Yeah, so I I was actually 

542
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,320
wondering, do you have any 
hidden gems? 

543
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:57,720
I'm planning a vacation to 
Dominican Republic. 

544
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:00,040
Bunta Canta. 
Bunta Cana. 

545
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:02,440
I shouldn't know how. 
To say that. 

546
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:08,160
So is that a good choice to 
start with? 

547
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:13,520
And any hidden gems. 
You see now here's the trap, 

548
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:15,560
right? 
It's, you say hidden gems, it 

549
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:17,320
gets out and that's no longer a 
hidden. 

550
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:18,840
Gems. 
Right. 

551
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:21,600
Oh yeah, with our with our 
millions and millions. 

552
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:23,400
Of billions. 
Of billions. 

553
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:27,680
Yeah, no, I'm, I'm kind of 
relaxed whenever I go back to to

554
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,880
the Caribbean. 
So it is for, for me, Trinidad 

555
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:37,200
and Tobago is like the home base
and I'm born there. 

556
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:41,840
So, so my, my heart will will 
always go to, towards that part 

557
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:44,520
of the Caribbean, right? 
But other than that, go, 

558
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:48,520
definitely go island hopping. 
There's so, so much to explore 

559
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:54,040
and, and I mean, a lot of people
have been to to Jamaica and the 

560
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:58,080
Bahamas and stuff like that, but
there's also other, other 

561
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:03,000
islands that has stuff that's 
worth seeing and, and 

562
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:05,600
experiencing. 
Yeah, sounds wonderful. 

563
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:07,360
All right, well, that's pretty 
good. 

564
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:09,440
Probably spot to leave it for 
this this one. 

565
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:12,239
Jerome, great to meet you in 
person. 

566
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,120
Thanks for taking time here, 
being with us. 

567
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:18,400
I'll have your LinkedIn profile 
in our show notes so people can 

568
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,800
reach out and connect. 
Maybe trade war stories, maybe 

569
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:24,360
maybe you guys, you know, it can
get maybe in a more of a hidden 

570
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:25,719
gem conversation. 
A1 to 1. 

571
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:27,159
So, you know, blasted on the 
Internet. 

572
00:34:27,679 --> 00:34:29,080
But thank you so much for being 
part of this. 

573
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,320
And yeah, we're going to leave 
for this week. 

574
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:34,639
Find us on the web at 
idacpodcast.com, like and 

575
00:34:34,639 --> 00:34:36,120
subscribe and do all those fun 
things right. 

576
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:37,920
That's what gets us up to places
like this. 

577
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:41,400
And yeah, appreciate it. 
So thanks everyone for watching 

578
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:43,880
and or listening and we'll talk 
with you all in the next one. 

579
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:49,840
You've been listening to 
Identity at the Center. 

580
00:34:50,159 --> 00:34:54,280
We hope you've enjoyed the show.
Make sure to like, rate and 

581
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:57,880
review, and we'll be back soon. 
But in the meantime, hit the 

582
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:01,320
website at 
identity@thecenter.com. 

583
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:06,000
See you next time on Identity at
the Center.