1 00:00:09,700 --> 00:00:12,400 You're listening to the identity at the center podcast. 2 00:00:12,700 --> 00:00:15,600 This is a show that talks about identity and access management 3 00:00:15,700 --> 00:00:18,600 and making sure you know who has access to what let's get 4 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:29,300 started. Welcome to the identity of the 5 00:00:29,300 --> 00:00:30,600 center podcast. I'm Jeff. 6 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:32,000 And that's Jim. Hey Jim. 7 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:35,700 Hey, Jeff, how are you? Oh, not so bad yourself. 8 00:00:36,500 --> 00:00:37,700 Good good. You know. 9 00:00:37,700 --> 00:00:41,900 The this is our second podcast recording of the day we have to 10 00:00:41,900 --> 00:00:44,400 do that around the holidays and things like that. 11 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:49,500 But you know, during the last recording session, I had FedEx 12 00:00:49,500 --> 00:00:53,000 show up right in the middle of the call, as, as expected, 13 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:55,300 right? They gave a delivery when In do 14 00:00:55,300 --> 00:00:59,000 they showed up at the very last moment within those delivery 15 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:02,100 window and then it was something I had to be signed for. 16 00:01:02,300 --> 00:01:04,900 There's only a couple of t-shirts and a pair of jeans 17 00:01:04,900 --> 00:01:08,700 that I was having delivered, but I had to sign for it anyway. 18 00:01:09,100 --> 00:01:12,100 That's a little bit of the behind, the behind, the big 19 00:01:12,100 --> 00:01:14,400 curtain. Yeah, it was like it when we're 20 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:15,900 sitting here, having a conversation with a guest and 21 00:01:15,900 --> 00:01:20,300 then I see Jim get up walk away. It's like forecast, mostly think 22 00:01:20,300 --> 00:01:22,300 I was like, oh they're not paying attention or like what's 23 00:01:22,300 --> 00:01:25,200 going on around here. But yeah, I mean, This is real 24 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:26,400 life. This is the way things work. 25 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:29,200 Of course, if you're getting a delivery, that is exactly when 26 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:31,000 they're going to show up. As soon as we hit the record 27 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:33,100 button, you know, that's when you're going to hear the, the 28 00:01:33,100 --> 00:01:37,700 doorbell or the dog bark or, you know, the fire engine or the 29 00:01:37,700 --> 00:01:39,700 police car drive by. That's just, that's just the way 30 00:01:39,700 --> 00:01:40,900 it works in the world, we live in. 31 00:01:40,900 --> 00:01:43,600 So, so, it's all good. Well, the one, though, you saw 32 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:46,100 always happen, was the landscapers would show up. 33 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:50,500 It was like, I think we were recording the podcast and, you 34 00:01:50,500 --> 00:01:53,700 know, the first 50 episodes or whatever it was on Thursday 35 00:01:53,700 --> 00:01:57,300 afternoon because I Ooh the my crew showed up on Thursday 36 00:01:57,300 --> 00:02:01,900 afternoon at like 4:00 and like you know the leaf blower would 37 00:02:01,900 --> 00:02:06,900 go on just as we hit record as same thing here my you know, I 38 00:02:06,900 --> 00:02:09,500 guess, Thursday's landscape me day Across the Nation. 39 00:02:09,500 --> 00:02:12,600 So so we moved to mostly Wendy, Wednesday's a try and counter 40 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:15,100 for that. But that ends up being my like 41 00:02:15,100 --> 00:02:19,400 my I don't know my homeowner's association that's when their 42 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:21,000 Landscaping does it on Wednesdays. 43 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:23,700 So whatever. I don't think people tuned in to 44 00:02:23,700 --> 00:02:26,500 the identity of the center. Cast to learn about Landscaping, 45 00:02:26,500 --> 00:02:29,800 Trends across the United States. Other than hey, we're real 46 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:33,400 people, we have stuff going on. And sometimes, you know, things 47 00:02:33,700 --> 00:02:36,700 pop up while we're recording that, you know, you don't hear 48 00:02:36,700 --> 00:02:40,300 necessarily behind the scenes, but like I said, sometimes, I'll 49 00:02:40,300 --> 00:02:44,300 watch Jim get up, walk away, and then come back and they'll carry 50 00:02:44,300 --> 00:02:46,100 on the conversation just like nothing ever happened. 51 00:02:46,100 --> 00:02:49,900 So, so I think with that said, why don't we get into our 52 00:02:49,900 --> 00:02:52,500 conversation for today? Because I am staring at a screen 53 00:02:52,500 --> 00:02:56,800 here of our guests and I'm very Excited to have Steven Cox on 54 00:02:56,800 --> 00:03:00,000 the show, he's a co-founder and chief technology officer at 55 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:02,600 strobe a city, so welcome to the show Steven. 56 00:03:02,900 --> 00:03:04,500 Thanks a lot Jeff. I'm happy to be here. 57 00:03:04,700 --> 00:03:07,100 Thanks for having me. Thanks so much for being here. 58 00:03:07,100 --> 00:03:09,500 And, you know, I think one of the things that we like to get 59 00:03:09,500 --> 00:03:11,900 into, and we're going to actually have a conversation 60 00:03:11,900 --> 00:03:13,600 that kind of structures off a couple different things. 61 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:17,000 Probably mostly around customer identity and access management 62 00:03:17,100 --> 00:03:18,500 and some things to think about that. 63 00:03:18,500 --> 00:03:21,900 But as it's your first time the show we as an industry addition 64 00:03:21,900 --> 00:03:23,900 around here is we like to understand kind of the origin 65 00:03:23,900 --> 00:03:26,400 story for people. And how they actually got into 66 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,000 the identity space or maybe even when they realized they were in 67 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:31,700 identity and maybe they didn't know before just kind of had 68 00:03:31,700 --> 00:03:34,000 that daunting. So, maybe I can kind of take us, 69 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:37,300 you know, briefly through kind of your past and and how you 70 00:03:37,300 --> 00:03:39,900 ended up on the show, I guess. Yeah. 71 00:03:39,900 --> 00:03:41,200 You know. So one of your one of your 72 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:45,200 previous pods you you ask the quite that question. 73 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:48,700 A really interesting way you asked like, you know, did you 74 00:03:48,700 --> 00:03:51,900 did you find Identity or did identity find you right? 75 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:56,000 And I would say that identity definitely found and me you know 76 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:58,800 I kind of like to make the joke that I'm you know I'm not an 77 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:02,700 identity guy but I play one on TV you know I've been in the 78 00:04:02,700 --> 00:04:05,300 security space for a very long time about 15 years. 79 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:09,600 My first foray into into security was doing DNS 80 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:14,200 monitoring of the common. Net infrastructure verisign that 81 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:16,899 was not too long after I was out of college. 82 00:04:17,100 --> 00:04:21,800 I worked for after that a network monitoring company name. 83 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:24,300 Net witness. That was that was later 84 00:04:24,300 --> 00:04:27,400 acquired. Hard, I worked after that for 85 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:30,600 for an incident response company name mandiant, you're probably 86 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:34,200 familiar with before the before the fire acquisition a little 87 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:38,600 bit after that was where I met my, my fellow co-founder of 88 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:44,700 strobe, acity, Keith g, Keith later, recruited me to an 89 00:04:44,700 --> 00:04:46,200 identity company that you're a lot. 90 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:49,900 Of your listeners are probably familiar with me and secureauth, 91 00:04:50,500 --> 00:04:53,200 and I really liked what secure off was doing around threat 92 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:55,800 detection at the the identity layer. 93 00:04:56,100 --> 00:04:59,800 So I spent a number of years at secureauth, you know, helping 94 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:04,100 them build their product out and and, and then Keith. 95 00:05:04,100 --> 00:05:09,400 And I went off and started stir Bassett e, late in 2019 and and 96 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:12,000 the with the prime focus on customer identity. 97 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:14,500 So serve a city is relatively new. 98 00:05:14,500 --> 00:05:16,500 And, you know, I think people who are listening have kind of 99 00:05:16,500 --> 00:05:19,000 come to realize we don't really do commercials on this show, 100 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:20,200 right? We don't talk about ourselves 101 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:23,800 and certainly try not to make an infomercial people, but I think 102 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:27,100 it's in this Yes, I want to make a slight exception, other than 103 00:05:27,100 --> 00:05:29,700 to kind of bring the audience up to speak as they may not have 104 00:05:29,700 --> 00:05:31,300 heard of strip acity. It's only been around, like you 105 00:05:31,300 --> 00:05:33,800 said since, you know 2019, you guys are still growing. 106 00:05:34,700 --> 00:05:38,300 And as a relative new player in the same space I guess you know 107 00:05:38,300 --> 00:05:41,500 what's the 30-second pitch? Why does the world need yet 108 00:05:41,500 --> 00:05:44,200 another see IM product or vendor in the space? 109 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:48,100 Yeah I appreciate I appreciate the sentiment there for sure. 110 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:50,700 You know. Definitely start-up problems is 111 00:05:50,700 --> 00:05:52,000 getting. You're getting your name out 112 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:55,000 there getting the getting the share of voice and and You know 113 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:59,100 stir Bassett e is is the first see, I am vendor. 114 00:05:59,100 --> 00:06:02,500 That was Cloud born and and designed from the get-go to 115 00:06:02,500 --> 00:06:06,400 solve the the, you know, the gamut of customer identity 116 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:10,700 problems were we're built for scale were built to solve some 117 00:06:10,700 --> 00:06:15,500 of the, some of the modern data privacy challenges that that, 118 00:06:15,500 --> 00:06:17,700 you know, that that brands are facing today. 119 00:06:17,700 --> 00:06:22,900 And and, you know, were we're, you know, we're building digital 120 00:06:22,900 --> 00:06:24,500 transformation for the cloud. Really. 121 00:06:24,900 --> 00:06:27,400 So I think you partially answered this question, but I 122 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:32,100 was going to say look it's not hard to find a Blog titled 123 00:06:32,100 --> 00:06:33,700 customer. I am is different from 124 00:06:33,700 --> 00:06:36,700 Enterprise. I am, in fact, I wrote 11 us 125 00:06:36,700 --> 00:06:39,900 with. I denture P but I want you to 126 00:06:39,900 --> 00:06:45,200 explain to the listeners that I am practitioners of the world. 127 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:49,000 What that really means. Y is customer, I am different 128 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:53,000 from Enterprise, I am. Yeah, we've also blogged on this 129 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:54,500 topic. It's an it. 130 00:06:54,700 --> 00:06:57,700 Definitely an important one to understand, you know, at a high 131 00:06:57,700 --> 00:07:00,700 level and you know, at a real at a real high level, you know, 132 00:07:00,700 --> 00:07:05,000 you're you're basically looking at a different base of users in 133 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:07,900 see, I am versus, you know, Enterprise I am. 134 00:07:08,700 --> 00:07:11,600 You know, Enterprise, I am traditional. 135 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:14,300 I am, has kind of been focused on the workforce, right 136 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:17,400 customer. I did, I am is focused on 137 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:22,000 consumers, of course, in in, you know, in Workforce, I am your 138 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:24,500 provisioned by an HR or an IT person. 139 00:07:24,700 --> 00:07:27,600 Right. You typically have less say over 140 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:31,500 the means in which you, you access things, you know, and 141 00:07:31,500 --> 00:07:34,200 work for Siam and customer. I am your often self 142 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:37,300 provisioning or registering yourself, right? 143 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:39,600 You have a lot more say, on the ways that you access things, 144 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:43,200 because you can simply walk away and find another brand to do 145 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:45,700 business with, right? You have you have that choice. 146 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:49,900 So, so here, you know, user experience becomes really 147 00:07:49,900 --> 00:07:52,300 important. And flexibility becomes really 148 00:07:52,300 --> 00:07:54,700 important. You have this, you may have a A 149 00:07:54,700 --> 00:07:58,500 widely ranging, you know, demographic, you know, spread 150 00:07:58,500 --> 00:08:01,300 and your user base and see, I am some of them may be less 151 00:08:01,300 --> 00:08:03,500 sophisticated. Some of them may not have 152 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,400 up-to-date technology. So how do you, how do you do, 153 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:10,700 multi factor in cases, where you have, you know, a less technical 154 00:08:10,900 --> 00:08:13,500 user base. Some of them might have issues 155 00:08:13,500 --> 00:08:16,100 enrolling in multi-factor, we're not want to all together. 156 00:08:16,100 --> 00:08:18,700 So and then you course, you've got a, you've got to think about 157 00:08:18,700 --> 00:08:22,600 scale, you know, Enterprise, I am focused on like, you know, 158 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:24,500 sort of thousands to to maybe hundreds. 159 00:08:24,700 --> 00:08:28,300 Thousands of users and see, I am can easily get into the tens and 160 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:31,100 tens of millions of users and up? 161 00:08:31,100 --> 00:08:33,600 Yeah, that's right. And I think, you know, really 162 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:37,700 where I was keying, my thinking was really where you started, 163 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:41,500 you know, there's such variety, we're talking about customer, I 164 00:08:41,500 --> 00:08:44,600 am, who are your customers? Are they consumers? 165 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:46,400 Are you doing an e-commerce site? 166 00:08:46,700 --> 00:08:52,400 Are they your members are? They beat has be to be to be 167 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:56,200 partners are you know the other business Aces and there's such a 168 00:08:56,200 --> 00:09:01,100 different different ways. You could go about managing 169 00:09:01,100 --> 00:09:04,200 those user accounts. Getting people access, you know, 170 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:07,700 whether or not, they are able to maintain that excess over time. 171 00:09:07,700 --> 00:09:11,700 Or you know, when they leave the customer organization, your 172 00:09:11,700 --> 00:09:14,300 off-boarding them compare that to Enterprise. 173 00:09:14,300 --> 00:09:18,000 I am so you know, Jeff it's so there are doubt, we'd all really 174 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:21,000 talking about what we do but for those who listen to us every 175 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:26,900 week, you realize that we do Consulting On, I am and develop 176 00:09:26,900 --> 00:09:28,700 strategies. But, you know, a lot of times 177 00:09:28,700 --> 00:09:30,800 we're working with organizations, or what we call 178 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:35,500 Enterprise I am, is figuring out how to manage who gets access to 179 00:09:35,500 --> 00:09:37,700 what from a Workforce perspective. 180 00:09:38,100 --> 00:09:41,000 Now, we're really not Reinventing the wheel every 181 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:43,000 time. It's not like well, you know, 182 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:45,900 most organizations they're getting a feed from an 183 00:09:45,908 --> 00:09:49,300 authoritative Source like a human resources system but maybe 184 00:09:49,300 --> 00:09:50,800 you guys should do it differently. 185 00:09:50,900 --> 00:09:53,700 That that sound that's not the way we look at it, right? 186 00:09:53,700 --> 00:09:58,300 It's like You know, you'd have to really be completely 187 00:09:58,300 --> 00:10:02,700 different than everyone else in order to, to really shake some 188 00:10:02,700 --> 00:10:04,100 of those kind of fundamental Roots. 189 00:10:04,100 --> 00:10:08,300 But when it comes to customer, I am I find that you know, that 190 00:10:08,300 --> 00:10:10,800 that's not necessarily the case, you have to kind of go into it 191 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:12,800 open-minded. Like how do you do it today? 192 00:10:13,100 --> 00:10:16,900 What are you trying to achieve? And and it's a, it's a big, it's 193 00:10:16,900 --> 00:10:21,200 much more different picture and I think that in some ways makes 194 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:28,800 it easier or makes it Provides a justification for why there 195 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:33,200 would be so many, see IM up, or opportunities for CA and 196 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:35,500 products to be introduced in the market. 197 00:10:35,500 --> 00:10:39,700 But at the same time difficult, because since the problem is not 198 00:10:40,100 --> 00:10:44,900 one clear solution to kind of develop a CA and product that 199 00:10:44,900 --> 00:10:49,300 solves all these problems and so it creates opportunities but at 200 00:10:49,300 --> 00:10:53,500 the same time makes it a very difficult problem to solve, you 201 00:10:53,500 --> 00:10:57,200 know, kind of In Ewing on with that you know we talked about 202 00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:03,300 the blog, you guys have a Blog will get the link out there in 203 00:11:03,300 --> 00:11:06,800 the show notes blog. I saw another blog that you guys 204 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:09,800 wrote called trade-offs of using open-source. 205 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:15,000 See I am and that's I found that interesting because you know 206 00:11:15,500 --> 00:11:19,700 again the CIA in problem is something that has so many 207 00:11:19,700 --> 00:11:22,400 different solutions, I've run into a lot of clients that do 208 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:26,400 there were using open-source. See I am Were seriously 209 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:30,600 considering that and I wanted to get your perspective on what 210 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:32,200 those trade-offs are. Yeah. 211 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:36,100 Absolutely, you know, just just a small distinction, you know, 212 00:11:36,100 --> 00:11:38,500 when I when we talk to, you know, open source. 213 00:11:38,500 --> 00:11:41,700 See I am, you know, on that blog, we're not necessarily 214 00:11:41,700 --> 00:11:44,400 speaking about like using open-source libraries in your 215 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:45,900 software. You know, we all know that's 216 00:11:45,900 --> 00:11:50,000 pretty much the standard way that the people build software 217 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:53,700 these days but we're really talking about here is like using 218 00:11:53,700 --> 00:11:57,600 a fully baked, you know, No see IM open source offering and then 219 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:01,600 Landing it sort of directly within your product or your your 220 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:06,400 infrastructure, right? And again I'm a joker. 221 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:10,000 So you know the the analogy I like to use is that open source 222 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:13,600 CMS see IM is kind of like a free puppy, you know you know, 223 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:18,000 puppies are cute and awesome and and and and you, you know, you 224 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:20,300 there they're awesome. You know, it's great to have. 225 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:23,400 But, you know, when you get, when you take on a puppy, you're 226 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:27,400 taking on much more than Then just, you know, the the 227 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:30,500 immediate relation of having a puppy, you have to feed the 228 00:12:30,500 --> 00:12:34,800 puppy, have to walk the puppy have to take, you know, it's a 229 00:12:34,808 --> 00:12:38,300 multi-year obligation right to care to care for care for that 230 00:12:38,300 --> 00:12:41,200 puppy. And that's kind of, the sort of 231 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:43,800 mouth mentality. I speak to, when I, when I, when 232 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:47,800 I talk about taking on an open source, see, I am offering you, 233 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:52,600 you do get a free product, right free product, quote, unquote, 234 00:12:52,700 --> 00:12:56,000 but you're taking on the, on all the obligation of Of all the 235 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,700 Care and Feeding around it, right operationalizing? 236 00:12:58,700 --> 00:13:03,200 It hiring people to maintain it hosting it somewhere, monitoring 237 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:06,200 it patching, it addressing security vulnerabilities, right? 238 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:10,700 And that can, that can quickly get daunting a lot of the 239 00:13:10,700 --> 00:13:14,800 open-source offerings that you see, you know, in this space, 240 00:13:15,100 --> 00:13:17,300 you know, have premium support packages. 241 00:13:17,300 --> 00:13:19,800 So then it's really not even even free anymore, right? 242 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:23,800 If you go that route and and you know, none of these things are 243 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:26,200 bad there. Many organizations that are 244 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:28,900 perfectly fine with that type of arrangement, and they have the 245 00:13:28,900 --> 00:13:32,100 resources to do that. And, you know, you have you 246 00:13:32,100 --> 00:13:36,100 ultimately have more fine-grain control over it because you 247 00:13:36,100 --> 00:13:39,800 actually, you know, own the code and, or working from the code 248 00:13:40,300 --> 00:13:42,600 with a CI M platform. You may have a little bit less 249 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:45,800 fine, fine, grained control, and maybe that's okay too. 250 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:48,500 But you should just really kind of think of those. 251 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:52,600 Think of those trade-offs, it's not it's not quite as you know, 252 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,700 clear apparent, as you might think, you know, From from the 253 00:13:55,700 --> 00:13:58,200 beginning, right? It's not really the open source 254 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:03,100 model that I hear you have it. An issue with a really talking 255 00:14:03,100 --> 00:14:06,100 about in terms of trade offs. What you're really talking about 256 00:14:06,100 --> 00:14:10,100 is the kind of responsibilities that you're taking on yourself. 257 00:14:10,500 --> 00:14:12,300 Exactly. Your your organization is taking 258 00:14:12,300 --> 00:14:13,600 on, right? Exactly. 259 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:17,700 It's kind of back to my point about was see, I am and kind of 260 00:14:17,700 --> 00:14:19,600 user management being so different. 261 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:24,500 I mean, when you look at CA and products but they seem to all do 262 00:14:24,500 --> 00:14:28,100 well. Is authentication, right? 263 00:14:28,100 --> 00:14:32,900 Authentication for web applications has gotten you know 264 00:14:32,900 --> 00:14:37,200 baked into standards. There's not many solutions out 265 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:39,600 there that are saying hey you know, forget about the 266 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:41,600 standards, we got something proprietary. 267 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:44,100 That is a heck of a lot better, right? 268 00:14:44,100 --> 00:14:47,900 So then it becomes a matter of, you know, hey, we implement the 269 00:14:47,900 --> 00:14:54,800 standards, we have, you know, robust hosting offers cloud. 270 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:59,400 His successor excetera. I guess what I'm saying is, I 271 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:02,700 think that, you know, there's not a ton of differentiation 272 00:15:02,700 --> 00:15:07,600 there where the differentiation for my money becomes is around 273 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:11,900 what capabilities, do you provide in terms of doing user 274 00:15:11,900 --> 00:15:16,400 management, terms of user registration and terms of, you 275 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:21,800 know, credential management when you get into the bead abuse 276 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:27,800 scenarios, it can get extremely complex but I find that A lot of 277 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:30,800 my clients, you know, they're looking for a product that can 278 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:33,900 solve most of their problem. They don't want to go and 279 00:15:33,900 --> 00:15:36,700 develop their own user management platform. 280 00:15:36,900 --> 00:15:38,900 They want to do that. They can just go and do that. 281 00:15:38,900 --> 00:15:42,300 They don't need the product, but they want a product, right? 282 00:15:42,300 --> 00:15:44,700 And they, you know, even more they want to cloud service, 283 00:15:44,700 --> 00:15:46,700 right? And they're even willing to make 284 00:15:46,700 --> 00:15:50,800 some trade-offs to get there, but I wanted to kind of throw 285 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:52,600 that out there. Is that kind of what your 286 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:56,200 thoughts are as well. Do you really feel like, you 287 00:15:56,200 --> 00:16:00,000 know, user management is Is kind of what is one of the main areas 288 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:02,600 that differentiates eam products? 289 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:04,100 I think so. Yeah. 290 00:16:04,100 --> 00:16:07,000 I mean, you know, the, the question kind of comes down to 291 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:10,400 like, well, what what amount of user management is enough, 292 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:13,500 right? Like it and it really comes down 293 00:16:13,500 --> 00:16:17,700 to, in the, to me, to my eye, and my opinion in the CIA I'm 294 00:16:17,700 --> 00:16:19,000 space. It really comes down to user 295 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:21,900 experience, right? Being able to craft, you know, 296 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:24,700 it's not just crafting user experiences for the end users 297 00:16:24,700 --> 00:16:27,000 for the, for the end. Customers but also for the, for 298 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,300 the For the brands themselves that are using the see, I am 299 00:16:30,300 --> 00:16:34,000 product, right? They they may have different 300 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:35,900 user. Personas that you need to cater 301 00:16:35,900 --> 00:16:37,800 to, right? You have the brand admins, you 302 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:41,000 have the I am specialist, you have the marketing teams that 303 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:43,600 the support folks. You know, there's there's a 304 00:16:43,700 --> 00:16:46,200 there's a variety of different user personas within an 305 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:49,400 organization that may need access to be able to do certain 306 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:54,200 things within a see IM platform. You know, so, you know, 307 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:56,800 role-based access control is kind of, kind of one ways. 308 00:16:56,900 --> 00:16:58,300 One way to address. Dress this, right? 309 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:01,700 You kind of allow people to do different things within your 310 00:17:01,700 --> 00:17:05,000 Administration, console, kind of based on their their role, or 311 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:07,500 their user Persona that you that you can figure, right? 312 00:17:07,500 --> 00:17:10,099 So you kind of make it, kind of make it easy to get to get to 313 00:17:10,099 --> 00:17:13,900 where they want to go and do what they want to do within 314 00:17:13,900 --> 00:17:16,500 within your product. So I do think it's important for 315 00:17:16,500 --> 00:17:19,599 sure. Now so now that I kind of made 316 00:17:19,599 --> 00:17:23,300 the case that you know user management should be the top 317 00:17:23,300 --> 00:17:25,500 priority and I'm not even saying that I think that's one of the 318 00:17:25,500 --> 00:17:30,200 main differentiators. when we talk about customer, I am versus 319 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:34,000 Enterprise, I am I think one of the main differentiators can or 320 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:38,700 differences between the two can be scale, and when I say that, 321 00:17:38,700 --> 00:17:42,600 I'm talking about, you know, Enterprise scale is, you know, 322 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:49,100 typically up to 100,000 users, where an internet scale or or 323 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:53,100 where the customer I am, fits in and can be millions billions of 324 00:17:53,100 --> 00:17:57,300 users but like even if we just take Millions that's all 325 00:17:57,700 --> 00:18:01,600 Exponentially more than than even large Enterprises. 326 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:06,500 And when you start talking about companies with or organizations 327 00:18:06,500 --> 00:18:11,800 with high seasonality, those the volumes can just become 328 00:18:12,100 --> 00:18:15,400 ginormous. Now, one of the things I looked 329 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:20,800 at in researching shrive, acity architecture, if you will, is 330 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:26,700 you guys look to address that using kubernetes, you're the 331 00:18:26,700 --> 00:18:29,500 architect. It you were probably the person 332 00:18:29,500 --> 00:18:34,000 behind that decision so maybe even like we like to start the 333 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:36,900 most basic level maybe we could do for the audience to kind of 334 00:18:36,900 --> 00:18:42,500 explain what kubernetes does and then why you selected it to help 335 00:18:42,500 --> 00:18:44,800 with their scale or how it helps you with scale? 336 00:18:45,300 --> 00:18:45,800 Yeah. Yeah. 337 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:46,200 See. Yeah. 338 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:48,700 You mentioned you mentioned that scale is, you know, a 339 00:18:48,708 --> 00:18:52,700 differentiator and between see. I am Andy, I am. 340 00:18:52,700 --> 00:18:56,300 I definitely agree. I mean you can get to, you can 341 00:18:56,300 --> 00:18:59,900 get to sort of match. Massive levels of scale and see, 342 00:18:59,900 --> 00:19:03,400 I am I really, I really like your your point about 343 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:09,000 seasonality, write, the example, I love to give is the is the tax 344 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:11,500 company, right? That's got extremely bursty 345 00:19:11,500 --> 00:19:13,700 traffic at certain times of the year. 346 00:19:14,100 --> 00:19:16,800 You know, when everyone is like, oh my gosh, I'm late on my tax 347 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:18,900 return. I have to do it right now and 348 00:19:18,900 --> 00:19:21,100 they're rushing to get those. You know, those were tax returns 349 00:19:21,100 --> 00:19:25,400 in right before the deadline. So, you know, so you have to 350 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:29,200 handle, you know? Detra burst of traffic, right? 351 00:19:29,500 --> 00:19:32,800 And in a way that doesn't doesn't kill your your wallet. 352 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,900 I'm I'm sure a lot of your users have posted stuff in the cloud. 353 00:19:36,900 --> 00:19:39,000 So they kind of know what I'm talking about, but one of the 354 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:42,400 one of the core tenets of kubernetes is a concept called 355 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:47,100 auto-scaling, right? So you look at metrics that are 356 00:19:47,100 --> 00:19:51,800 being, you know, emitted by your services and you can add 357 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:54,500 additional instances of your services, if you know, the 358 00:19:54,500 --> 00:19:57,200 metrics reach certain point, they call that sort of 359 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:01,600 Horizontal or vertical auto-scaling, and you're able to 360 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:05,000 also scale that traffic back down. 361 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:10,300 And in a situation where you know, the burst traffic kind of 362 00:20:10,300 --> 00:20:14,100 you know, subsides, right? So it makes kubernetes like 363 00:20:14,100 --> 00:20:17,500 really well designed for for for this type of product because you 364 00:20:17,500 --> 00:20:22,700 can handle the seasonality, you know, the crazy bursty traffic 365 00:20:23,100 --> 00:20:26,800 and you can also scale it down and and not kill yourself in 366 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:30,600 terms of You know, in terms of your hosting bills that make 367 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:32,600 sense. Yeah, that makes sense even. 368 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:36,000 So maybe you could talk to us a little bit more about how that 369 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:38,900 scaling works. I mean just, you know, we're not 370 00:20:38,900 --> 00:20:42,000 looking to get a PhD in how this works but just, you know, a 371 00:20:42,008 --> 00:20:44,600 little bit more in terms of our eight. 372 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:49,000 So is it that there's some kind of monitor watching over your 373 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:53,100 instances looking for processor utilization, then spinning up 374 00:20:53,100 --> 00:20:57,200 additional server instances. That's exactly right. 375 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:01,500 Yeah, yeah, you you you you have, you know, you have a 376 00:21:01,500 --> 00:21:05,500 certain set of services you're monitoring their their, their 377 00:21:05,500 --> 00:21:08,100 activity, right? You're minding what the CPU is, 378 00:21:08,100 --> 00:21:10,900 what the memory is, you know, various different metrics. 379 00:21:10,900 --> 00:21:13,300 I mean, you can actually in some cases design, your own metrics 380 00:21:13,300 --> 00:21:16,900 if you want. And when you reach a certain 381 00:21:16,900 --> 00:21:21,500 threshold, you can effectively kick off a job that spins up a 382 00:21:21,508 --> 00:21:23,400 new instance of that service, right? 383 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:26,400 So and you can sort of Define all kinds of you know, 384 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:27,900 parameters around. That right. 385 00:21:27,900 --> 00:21:30,600 Maybe you want to double the amount of services or maybe you 386 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:32,500 just want to add one additional service, right? 387 00:21:32,500 --> 00:21:37,300 So you you have a lot of control over being able to do that. 388 00:21:37,300 --> 00:21:40,100 And then the flip side of that is, you know, when it falls 389 00:21:40,100 --> 00:21:42,800 below the threshold for some period of time, you drop one of 390 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:47,600 those Services, you know, off and so you do have some, there 391 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:49,700 are some design constraints around that, right? 392 00:21:49,700 --> 00:21:52,800 You have to make sure that your, your services can be run in 393 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:54,700 parallel, right? That there's not any sort of 394 00:21:54,700 --> 00:21:57,600 State shared between them, they have to kind of run and Be able 395 00:21:57,600 --> 00:21:59,800 to run in parallel, pretty easily, right? 396 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:02,200 So that one instance of the service can handle a 397 00:22:02,208 --> 00:22:04,500 transaction, on its own, that makes sense. 398 00:22:05,100 --> 00:22:09,100 And yeah, and that's kind of the idea of scaling, with in 399 00:22:09,100 --> 00:22:12,700 something like kubernetes. Yeah, so glad I asked, you know, 400 00:22:12,700 --> 00:22:15,800 I guess did you look at Docker as potential or maybe a Docker 401 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:19,100 swarm versus kubernetes? I guess, what was kidding? 402 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:21,300 Can you help me? Understand, you know why maybe 403 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:24,200 you went with kubernetes over Docker specifically? 404 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:26,700 Yeah, we did. We did look at darker swarm. 405 00:22:26,900 --> 00:22:29,500 I actually Have some, some personal experience with dr. 406 00:22:29,500 --> 00:22:33,200 Foreman, you know, it previous companies that I've that I've 407 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:37,100 worked with, I think it was really mainly that we had 408 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:42,300 amongst the early Engineers that we had some some real direct 409 00:22:42,300 --> 00:22:45,200 knowledge of kubernetes. So it just kind of made sense 410 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,200 for us to go in that path. Just because of you know what, 411 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:52,100 you know, startup bootstrap get stuff running as you know, type 412 00:22:52,100 --> 00:22:53,000 of mentality. Yeah. 413 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:56,500 So it was more of like a prism or like a team experience thing 414 00:22:56,700 --> 00:22:59,500 then Than anything else. Gotcha, I'm answering helps with 415 00:22:59,500 --> 00:23:01,200 a raffle perspective. I would say if, you know, the 416 00:23:01,500 --> 00:23:04,400 closer to using, I'm always curious about the security to, 417 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:08,100 you know, I guess when we talk about the scale of some of the, 418 00:23:08,500 --> 00:23:11,100 you know, install bases in the fennec ation basis that you're 419 00:23:11,100 --> 00:23:14,400 probably dealing with and getting into millions and spikes 420 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:15,900 and things like that. I immediately think of things 421 00:23:15,900 --> 00:23:20,300 like DDOS, and other types of attacks, that that can Trend 422 00:23:20,300 --> 00:23:22,100 that way. But also other things like 423 00:23:22,500 --> 00:23:25,700 passwords praying, you know, man-in-the-middle social 424 00:23:25,700 --> 00:23:27,100 engineering fishing like all the stuff. 425 00:23:27,100 --> 00:23:29,000 The Comes along with this. Yeah. 426 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:33,900 How do you approach security from a CI, M environment 427 00:23:33,900 --> 00:23:36,600 perspective and what are some things that people should be 428 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:39,600 thinking about as they look at 6 a.m. for their organizations of 429 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,500 some of the threats and and how you've looked to address some of 430 00:23:42,500 --> 00:23:43,200 that? Yeah. 431 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:46,500 You know I you know, I know it's a it's a bit of a buzz word but 432 00:23:46,500 --> 00:23:51,400 you know I do also like to talk to this in terms of you know, 433 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,600 defense the defense in-depth concept, you know, there's 434 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:59,100 really no one one way to solve. So, all these types of different 435 00:23:59,100 --> 00:24:01,700 attacks. You know, you know you mentioned 436 00:24:01,700 --> 00:24:03,800 password, spraying just defending against password 437 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,900 spraying is, you know, a combination of things like doing 438 00:24:06,900 --> 00:24:10,800 bot detection and breached password detection, right? 439 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:14,300 You know, are these are these transactions coming from from 440 00:24:14,300 --> 00:24:18,100 known, but infrastructure, you have the ability to sort of rate 441 00:24:18,100 --> 00:24:22,500 limit, you know, based on various patterns of traffic or 442 00:24:22,500 --> 00:24:26,900 you can you, you know, are you pivoting on the data? 443 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,200 Like, you know, things like looking at multiple IPS coming 444 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,700 after one set of credentials or a single IP hitting multiple 445 00:24:33,700 --> 00:24:36,300 sets of credentials, right? You're kind of looking at these 446 00:24:36,300 --> 00:24:40,500 traffic patterns and trying to make make decisions off of 447 00:24:40,500 --> 00:24:42,400 whether you allow those, you know, those trick, those 448 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:46,300 transactions that go through or not and you know where you are, 449 00:24:46,300 --> 00:24:50,600 you protecting your users from sort of the the stolen or weak 450 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:55,100 password situation, right? You know, setting up password 451 00:24:55,100 --> 00:24:57,100 policies to something meaningful. 452 00:24:57,300 --> 00:25:01,400 You are using passwords doing reach, password protection when 453 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:03,900 a user sets or reset their password. 454 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,800 You know, if you in a few you kind of want to really get sexy, 455 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,400 you can think about things like password list flows, you know so 456 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:11,700 there's actually no password at all like you're taking it out of 457 00:25:11,700 --> 00:25:16,700 the problem entirely and when we're talking about like 458 00:25:16,700 --> 00:25:20,000 man-in-the-middle type of tax I assume we're you know we're 459 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,700 specific specifically talking about man in the middle attacks, 460 00:25:22,700 --> 00:25:26,500 you know, against authentication and that and that has some 461 00:25:26,500 --> 00:25:29,200 interesting Solutions. To it's, it's really around 462 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,600 making sure you're taking advantage of, you know, a lot of 463 00:25:32,608 --> 00:25:35,200 the lasers later. Latest browser, security 464 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,700 enhancements a specific way to defend against this. 465 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:42,800 You know, in authentication is to use an out-of-band MFA 466 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,900 method. So, you know, when an action has 467 00:25:45,900 --> 00:25:49,700 to be carried out on an external device to complete the 468 00:25:49,700 --> 00:25:51,900 transaction, you know, something as simple as like, push to 469 00:25:51,900 --> 00:25:54,800 accept his kind of a real base idea there. 470 00:25:54,800 --> 00:26:00,200 And the, the concept there is that You know, the, the, the to 471 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,500 multi Factor methods are not going through the same channel, 472 00:26:03,500 --> 00:26:07,300 at that point right there. You can't fish, you can't fish a 473 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:12,300 one-time passcode that's on a, it's on a list on a separate 474 00:26:12,300 --> 00:26:14,000 channel, right? From from where you're from, 475 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,600 where you're sitting. So you're pushing the, you're 476 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:21,200 pushing the the security context of this in two separate 477 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:23,500 channels, which is, which is just an inherently good thing to 478 00:26:23,500 --> 00:26:26,900 do when you're trying to trying to design secure systems and 479 00:26:26,900 --> 00:26:29,200 century Mention the password was because they see a lot of kind 480 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,200 of interest in that especially in the Enterprise space and we 481 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:33,900 see password list to some degree. 482 00:26:33,900 --> 00:26:36,300 In the consumer side of things. I immediately think of something 483 00:26:36,300 --> 00:26:38,800 like slack. Where, of course you can use a 484 00:26:38,808 --> 00:26:41,500 password to log in, but they also have the magic link process 485 00:26:41,500 --> 00:26:45,100 which is kind of a veiled password that sort of approach, 486 00:26:45,100 --> 00:26:47,700 you know, maybe not the smoothest transaction, but it 487 00:26:47,700 --> 00:26:49,500 works. And then I think of some of the 488 00:26:49,500 --> 00:26:53,000 other things that you mentioned to around the, the multiple 489 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,900 channels that can be happening for MFA or second Factor types 490 00:26:56,900 --> 00:26:59,000 of authentication, I think of them Apple. 491 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:05,100 So, I, you know, I've got an iPhone, a watch, an iPad, a Mac, 492 00:27:05,100 --> 00:27:06,500 I'm up. And, you know, I have all this. 493 00:27:06,500 --> 00:27:08,100 I have Windows too. So, don't don't hate me for 494 00:27:08,100 --> 00:27:11,600 everything. But when I get a multi-factor 495 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:15,000 prompt for Apple, it dings me on every device. 496 00:27:15,300 --> 00:27:18,400 Even the one I'm using which never really made sense to me. 497 00:27:18,408 --> 00:27:20,700 It's like, oh, okay. I, you know, you're sending me a 498 00:27:20,708 --> 00:27:23,400 second Factor request, but you're setting it to the same 499 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:26,100 device that I'm already using. That seems a little bit. 500 00:27:27,500 --> 00:27:30,700 Like that was not well thought out from that kind of deployment 501 00:27:30,700 --> 00:27:33,400 standpoint and just curious, you know, if that's if that's 502 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,900 something you've seen as well. And I guess just also if you can 503 00:27:36,900 --> 00:27:39,000 touch on the passenger side of things, because I'm wondering 504 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:43,700 how see I am products are looking to address that specific 505 00:27:43,700 --> 00:27:46,800 use case for consumers and getting away from the password, 506 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:48,800 which, you know, everyone hates and everyone's been telling us 507 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:52,200 as has been dying now for 10 years, it's the longest death 508 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:56,600 I've ever seen. Yeah, yeah, so you know, the 509 00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:00,200 impact Password. Listen, see I am is is 510 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,500 interesting. You know, we've it's interesting 511 00:28:03,500 --> 00:28:06,600 to see that you mentioned, you mentioned, your Apple in your 512 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:08,200 Apple devices. It's interesting that the 513 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:12,500 consumers, the consumer device, companies have really kind of, 514 00:28:12,900 --> 00:28:18,100 kind of led the way here in terms of using Biometrics as a, 515 00:28:18,100 --> 00:28:19,600 as a potential second Factor, right? 516 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:20,900 So they're actually making it there. 517 00:28:21,300 --> 00:28:23,300 I always like to say, they kind of their kind of making it easy 518 00:28:23,300 --> 00:28:27,000 for us as I am. As I am designers Architects to 519 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,600 To leverage a biometric as as a second Factor, right? 520 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:35,800 So you can get into a password list situation where, you know, 521 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:40,000 you do, you do a an out-of-town, you know, an out-of-band sort of 522 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,100 push to accept type of transaction. 523 00:28:42,100 --> 00:28:44,800 And the biometric is the the devices. 524 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:46,600 The first fact is the, is the first Factor. 525 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,200 The biometric is the second Factor, right? 526 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,900 And, and that's, that's actually pretty cool, right? 527 00:28:51,900 --> 00:28:54,400 And consumer because it's easy, right? 528 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,100 It's I mean, it's it, you may have some challenges with 529 00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,500 Rolling it but like it's user-friendly, you know, it's 530 00:28:59,500 --> 00:29:01,900 like, oh cool. Like I just logged into, you 531 00:29:01,900 --> 00:29:04,600 know, the service I'm trying to get to just buy open picking my 532 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:08,500 phone up authenticating putting my thumb on the on the reader or 533 00:29:08,500 --> 00:29:10,900 my finger on the back of the phone and I'm in, right? 534 00:29:10,900 --> 00:29:13,800 I don't have to like though type my password in or try to 535 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,000 remember it or try to pull it from my password manager. 536 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:17,300 It's like, oh I'm just in you know. 537 00:29:17,300 --> 00:29:22,000 So that's that's actually really beneficial in the in the, in the 538 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:25,200 consumer space the enrollment side like I say is a little 539 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:30,600 harder but it's The user experiences is great there and 540 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:32,700 it's interesting. Yeah I mean even you mentioned 541 00:29:32,700 --> 00:29:36,900 like oh yeah the the code goes to all of my devices even the 542 00:29:36,900 --> 00:29:40,700 one, I'm even the one on I'm sitting on that. 543 00:29:40,700 --> 00:29:42,400 That's not ideal of course, right? 544 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:45,800 But it is, it is still somewhat of a separate Channel because 545 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:49,500 it's not in the same browser session, right? 546 00:29:49,500 --> 00:29:51,500 It's out, it's an, it's in a separate browser session. 547 00:29:51,500 --> 00:29:55,400 So you could argue that it is slightly more secure but but 548 00:29:55,700 --> 00:29:57,600 probably not probably not. Ideal. 549 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:01,500 Yeah, you mentioned there Stephen about the consumer 550 00:30:01,500 --> 00:30:02,900 Brands, kind of driving a lot of this. 551 00:30:02,900 --> 00:30:05,100 I think they're driving it from the standpoint that they're 552 00:30:05,100 --> 00:30:08,300 putting readers into their devices. 553 00:30:08,300 --> 00:30:14,000 They're putting, you know, the touch ID or the facial 554 00:30:14,100 --> 00:30:17,200 recognition. But to me, it's the the Fido 555 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,500 alliance with the fighter to standard web authentic, that's 556 00:30:20,500 --> 00:30:24,700 really making this interoperable and not proprietary. 557 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:29,800 And so to me, that's such a key that You know, we continue to 558 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:34,700 kind of support that recognize that, at least I was trying to 559 00:30:34,700 --> 00:30:37,400 give a nod to it here on the, on the podcast. 560 00:30:37,900 --> 00:30:41,300 Yeah, but I yeah, yeah. I also wanted to just mention. 561 00:30:41,300 --> 00:30:45,700 We had a guest Roger Grimes, who was on the podcast? 562 00:30:45,700 --> 00:30:49,700 A couple episodes back. He wrote a book called hacking 563 00:30:49,700 --> 00:30:56,100 MFA and he kind of dissected the man in the middle attack built 564 00:30:56,100 --> 00:30:59,000 on the evil jinx. Framework, you get an 565 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,900 opportunity to recommend highly going out and looking at that, 566 00:31:01,900 --> 00:31:06,300 because it really shows you how someone can take an out-of-band 567 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:08,200 MFA. And if they set up a 568 00:31:08,208 --> 00:31:11,900 man-in-the-middle attack, really, you know, take advantage 569 00:31:11,900 --> 00:31:13,900 of that. And this is a framework, that's 570 00:31:13,900 --> 00:31:17,000 still out there on the internet today and it's really, you know, 571 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:22,200 kind of driven from from fishing campaigns to get people to log 572 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:26,200 into a fake website. Yeah, but you know that fake 573 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:29,600 websites relay In those credentials and really just 574 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,100 trying to steal and access token, right? 575 00:31:32,100 --> 00:31:37,200 Yeah. So all that I kind of led to the 576 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,600 next question that I had for you in terms of kind of looking at 577 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:44,800 your architecture and I see you guys are standards. 578 00:31:44,900 --> 00:31:49,300 Based in terms of the authentication, oid see support 579 00:31:49,300 --> 00:31:53,200 Samuel support. I got the sense and in talking 580 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:56,500 to you I think you validate this is that you favor. 581 00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:01,400 IDC which is I think the trend I'm seeing almost everywhere you 582 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:04,300 favor oid. See over Samuel, I'm wondering 583 00:32:04,300 --> 00:32:09,600 why that it is to avoid kind of the overhead of dealing with 584 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:11,800 browser redirection or is it something else? 585 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,900 So interesting, I I'd actually argued that that redirection is, 586 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:20,800 is the preferred way to do this. There's, there's a, there's a 587 00:32:20,808 --> 00:32:23,700 lot of reasons for that, you know, it a, if you think that a 588 00:32:23,700 --> 00:32:27,500 think of it, as a really sort of Base philosophical level, You're 589 00:32:27,500 --> 00:32:30,000 not, you know, when you, when you redirect your not 590 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:33,800 necessarily sending data between two security domains, right? 591 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,700 You're redirecting. The browser, the office Kirk is 592 00:32:36,700 --> 00:32:40,000 carried out and then you're redirecting back to the to the 593 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:44,300 original location that you were at universes embedding 594 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:48,800 embedding, you know, sort of log in you. 595 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:53,000 I within a within a portal your you have to collect the 596 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,000 information like username and password and pass it, you know, 597 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,500 over to whatever your Authentication solution is so 598 00:32:59,500 --> 00:33:03,900 there's, you know, quite simply more attack surface there than 599 00:33:03,900 --> 00:33:06,500 you have in in the, in the redirection. 600 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:11,300 You know, in the redirection method, another reason is that, 601 00:33:11,900 --> 00:33:15,100 you know, we would favor redirection is that, you know, 602 00:33:15,100 --> 00:33:18,800 ux or customer Journey changes can be easily made with 603 00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:22,900 configuration rather than requiring code changes within 604 00:33:22,900 --> 00:33:26,300 your, in your web app, right? You, if you change, if you 605 00:33:26,308 --> 00:33:29,800 change flow, Within a web app yet you probably are changing 606 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:32,300 code within your web app. If you change flow within a 607 00:33:32,300 --> 00:33:36,200 solution that you can redirect to you, you may be able to do it 608 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:37,800 and with configuration only, right? 609 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,700 So it's a very quick change versus something that you have 610 00:33:40,700 --> 00:33:46,100 to involve your engineering teams with and then you know, we 611 00:33:46,100 --> 00:33:50,100 favor oid see, you know it's it's just more modern, right? 612 00:33:50,100 --> 00:33:54,500 It's based on rest apis uses Json, you know as the payloads 613 00:33:54,500 --> 00:33:57,000 typically it's more lightweight, you know, Sam olens. 614 00:33:57,100 --> 00:34:00,000 Is is old. Its twin almost I guess almost 615 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,300 20 years old. Now it's XML. 616 00:34:02,300 --> 00:34:06,000 It's very heavy. You know, ATC takes things like 617 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,400 data privacy. Very seriously. 618 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:12,000 You know like consent handling is built into the is built into 619 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:17,600 the protocol so we we do kind of have to progress Jing Li support 620 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:20,800 sam'l for, for legacy reasons and will for a long time. 621 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:24,300 But I wouldn't advise anyone, you know, in this day and age to 622 00:34:24,300 --> 00:34:28,800 build a net, new app on Top of sam'l know. 623 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,500 That's, that's kind of my personal to sense their. 624 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:34,600 I think we've been saying that sandals is like the passwords 625 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:36,900 then dying not quite as long as the password. 626 00:34:36,900 --> 00:34:40,300 But yeah, I think it's gonna be around for a while. 627 00:34:40,300 --> 00:34:42,100 Unfortunately. I think I'm trying to memorize. 628 00:34:42,100 --> 00:34:45,900 It was Ian Glaser from Salesforce, I think that that 629 00:34:45,900 --> 00:34:48,199 kind of talk about that we had him on the show while back and 630 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,600 that was back in. We record with him in December 631 00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:54,100 of last year 2020. I think the show went live 632 00:34:54,100 --> 00:34:58,300 January 2021 and as far as I checked, Samuel his As has not 633 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:02,200 died any further, is it son? Passwords haven't died yet 634 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:05,100 either, but I hope the password eyes before Samuel. 635 00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:06,800 Yeah. No, Sam was going to be around 636 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,100 for a long time. I'm afraid to say, well, you 637 00:35:09,100 --> 00:35:11,000 know, problem is, if people aren't if people keep using it, 638 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:12,000 it's going to stick around. Right. 639 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,900 So what point do you start to re-architect on these old apps 640 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:16,700 is it on the apps or end of life? 641 00:35:16,700 --> 00:35:19,800 Is it when something new shinier comes along to replace it? 642 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:21,800 You know, what is it? It's just I think it's just the 643 00:35:21,808 --> 00:35:24,900 nature of of applications and how they're built. 644 00:35:25,900 --> 00:35:28,400 I want to Pivot the Because I want to make sure I leave some 645 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:33,400 time to talk about something that I personally like to watch 646 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:36,800 and enjoy. And, and it relates a little bit 647 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:40,300 to customer. I am in a way that I'd like to 648 00:35:40,300 --> 00:35:44,800 understand who is your favorite twitch streamer and why is it 649 00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:47,300 you? Oh, well yeah, why is it me? 650 00:35:48,500 --> 00:35:52,800 I mean, I I follow a lot of, I follow a lot of OverWatch 651 00:35:53,300 --> 00:35:56,400 OverWatch streamers, and it's kind of a kind of my favorite PC 652 00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,500 game. I follow the OverWatch league 653 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,900 and and there's there's quite a few like, you know, professional 654 00:36:02,900 --> 00:36:04,600 players that scream often on Twitch. 655 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:06,600 So there's a, I follow a bunch of them. 656 00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:11,500 That's, that's really my, my probably the most of the time 657 00:36:11,500 --> 00:36:13,000 that I spend on Twitches doing that. 658 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:17,700 Yeah, I definitely I've done a little bit of streaming here 659 00:36:17,700 --> 00:36:20,000 inerrant, which myself, definitely not anything that I 660 00:36:20,008 --> 00:36:23,300 do if any sort of regularity and it's usually the same two games, 661 00:36:23,300 --> 00:36:25,800 it's either World of Warcraft or week of Legends. 662 00:36:26,100 --> 00:36:29,500 So, we to games like a Is that we will play despite the 663 00:36:29,500 --> 00:36:32,600 toxicity. I think of sometimes of either 664 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:36,400 of those folks but Jim I think wasn't your son looking at being 665 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:37,700 a streamer at some point. Yeah. 666 00:36:37,700 --> 00:36:41,000 Both my boys, give it a shot for a little bit and they had some 667 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:45,800 followers and people made donations to them which seemed 668 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:49,400 to really weird to me as like, you know, almost like lesson 669 00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:54,400 guide only giving you money while he was the last time you 670 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:56,900 got a donation for this chef and we don't ask for him. 671 00:36:57,100 --> 00:36:59,800 It's fine. Yeah, all right asking for the 672 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:02,300 now but I just I thought it was weird. 673 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:05,900 I don't know. I don't look, there's just in 674 00:37:05,900 --> 00:37:08,400 some things. They don't get and that's one of 675 00:37:08,408 --> 00:37:10,700 them get off at Jim's Lawn. I think is what he's trying to 676 00:37:10,700 --> 00:37:13,600 say and I kind of think you're right. 677 00:37:14,100 --> 00:37:17,300 I do watch. I like the idea of twitch and 678 00:37:17,300 --> 00:37:20,200 and what it brings. I think it adds a social aspect 679 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:23,700 to gaming, that used to be there with couch Co-op. 680 00:37:23,700 --> 00:37:25,600 That doesn't necessarily exist anymore. 681 00:37:25,900 --> 00:37:27,700 You still have multiplayer. Online games. 682 00:37:27,700 --> 00:37:30,400 And obviously, you know, I have a long history of World of 683 00:37:30,408 --> 00:37:32,300 Warcraft. I used to be at a rating gold. 684 00:37:32,500 --> 00:37:35,000 So I have, you know, I was definitely nerd out on that for 685 00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:36,900 a long time, definitely much more casual now. 686 00:37:36,900 --> 00:37:41,300 But when I see services like that, I also look at I was like, 687 00:37:41,300 --> 00:37:43,300 oh, that looks like an interesting game rather than me 688 00:37:43,300 --> 00:37:45,700 go in and spending 60 $70 on the game. 689 00:37:45,700 --> 00:37:47,700 I'm gonna go watch someone play it and see if it makes sense, 690 00:37:47,700 --> 00:37:49,400 right. It's almost like it's almost 691 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:51,700 like a demo without any fee for it. 692 00:37:51,700 --> 00:37:55,100 And sometimes these streamers are can be relatively 693 00:37:55,100 --> 00:37:57,400 interesting and actually hold a conversation and it's it's not 694 00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,400 just, you know, I think probably maybe what some people might be 695 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:01,600 expecting. If they're not familiar with it 696 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:03,400 is just like you're watching someone else. 697 00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:05,600 Play a game. Why is that interesting I guess? 698 00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,800 Stephen tutor back to you is like, okay, so I'm watching 699 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:10,300 someone play a game. Why is that interesting? 700 00:38:10,300 --> 00:38:15,400 Stephen so when I decide when I discussed this with the, you 701 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:17,200 know, with the get off my lawn crew. 702 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:24,000 I I kind of I kind of say well do you do you watch sports on 703 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:25,900 TV? Do you watch football on TV or 704 00:38:25,900 --> 00:38:27,500 what? Why are you Catching the 705 00:38:27,500 --> 00:38:30,200 football player on TV rather than playing football yourself, 706 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:32,300 right? It's a similar analogy. 707 00:38:32,300 --> 00:38:37,400 I mean, that's that, that's the that's what that's what Gamers 708 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:38,800 want to do. Is they want they want to watch 709 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:42,800 other Gamers of play, you know. And it's it's there's a lot of 710 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,300 different reasons you mentioned is a good, a good, a good 711 00:38:45,300 --> 00:38:46,800 reason. Definitely is like, oh, I'm 712 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:49,600 interested in buying this game. I want to go check it out, see 713 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:51,600 what people are doing with it. See if it kind of fits what I 714 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:56,300 like to do. Another reason is people use it 715 00:38:56,300 --> 00:38:57,600 to get better. Right? 716 00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:00,500 So like, I watch OverWatch streamers because I learn all 717 00:39:00,500 --> 00:39:03,100 the horrible mistakes that I make when I play, right? 718 00:39:03,100 --> 00:39:06,200 And I see what the professionals are doing when they, when they 719 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:07,900 play. And I go, I can't, I can, I can 720 00:39:07,900 --> 00:39:09,900 incorporate that into my game, right? 721 00:39:09,900 --> 00:39:12,400 You know, this is sorts kind of a, it's kind of a learning 722 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:16,200 experience as well, right? So, yeah, I think another thing 723 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:19,100 that I saw, so this wasn't twitch. 724 00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:24,000 It was YouTube. I believe my kids kind of made 725 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:27,600 their entry into video games with Minecraft and People who do 726 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,400 Minecraft videos first off its, I don't know. 727 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:33,500 It's under the price, not a very high fast-paced game. 728 00:39:34,100 --> 00:39:38,300 So the folks who would stream their videos were like 729 00:39:38,300 --> 00:39:41,600 entertaining, right there are they're trying to make like a 730 00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:44,700 fun story and they made it sound like they're having so much fun 731 00:39:44,700 --> 00:39:49,100 playing the game. And I think that was really what 732 00:39:49,100 --> 00:39:51,900 drew the kids into it in the first place. 733 00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:54,600 Yeah, yeah and there's a personal connection thing to you 734 00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:56,300 there, too. Because I mean, you can, you can 735 00:39:56,300 --> 00:39:59,500 you can talk To The Gamers and on Twitch. 736 00:39:59,500 --> 00:40:02,500 And, and if you if you really like a, you know, a streamer, if 737 00:40:02,500 --> 00:40:04,500 you really like a professional gamer and like, they might 738 00:40:04,500 --> 00:40:05,900 actually reply to you right like them. 739 00:40:05,900 --> 00:40:08,500 And actually I call you out. And that's I mean, that's pretty 740 00:40:08,500 --> 00:40:10,100 cool. Especially for I think 741 00:40:10,100 --> 00:40:12,400 especially for younger folks. They're like wow, you know, the 742 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:14,600 my favorite streamer does actually talk to me, you know. 743 00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:17,300 That's, that's pretty cool. Yeah. 744 00:40:17,300 --> 00:40:19,600 We get that all the time with the podcast, you know, I'm sure, 745 00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:22,000 yeah, autograph sessions, all that kind of stuff. 746 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:25,700 So, you know, we get it totally. Alright. 747 00:40:25,700 --> 00:40:29,300 So, you know, at the end, Day. Here's, I'm going to type back 748 00:40:29,300 --> 00:40:33,700 to Identity and, which is, especially when you mentioned, 749 00:40:33,700 --> 00:40:35,800 you know, getting better and watch how the pros do it. 750 00:40:35,900 --> 00:40:39,600 And OverWatch, for example, it's all about owning noobs, right, 751 00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:42,700 making sure that you're a step ahead of the game, whether it's 752 00:40:42,700 --> 00:40:47,100 on, OverWatch, or people who try to break your see, I'm system. 753 00:40:47,300 --> 00:40:49,000 Whatever it is. You want to make sure that you 754 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:50,300 own the noobs. Would that be fair? 755 00:40:50,300 --> 00:40:53,500 Stephen, I would say, I would say the analogy is if I want to 756 00:40:53,508 --> 00:40:56,700 own the noobs, I want to I want to own the the script kiddies 757 00:40:56,700 --> 00:41:00,500 that There that are trying to attack your, your your portal, 758 00:41:00,500 --> 00:41:02,600 right? Yeah, those are the noobs and in 759 00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:07,300 my in my view. Yeah I kind of we had this 760 00:41:07,300 --> 00:41:10,500 conversation that's with that same guests. 761 00:41:10,500 --> 00:41:14,900 Roger talking about hacking MFA. It was like even if you had the 762 00:41:14,900 --> 00:41:19,700 worst MFA that's going to block a bunch of their script kiddies 763 00:41:19,900 --> 00:41:23,800 because you know, it takes kind of next level versus just going 764 00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:26,700 to the dark web downloading a password file. 765 00:41:27,100 --> 00:41:30,000 And trying all the passwords, exactly what Kleenex is still 766 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:35,200 better than no Kleenex. I guess Stephen. 767 00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:36,200 You've been very generous with your time. 768 00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:39,200 But before we go, I'd like to just kind of give it an 769 00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:43,300 opportunity for each of you can to kind of I guess we've any 770 00:41:43,300 --> 00:41:47,200 Pearls of Wisdom advice for folks who are looking at Sea. 771 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:50,000 I am as part of their their strategy that they're looking to 772 00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,400 address. What are some things that you 773 00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:54,000 hope people took away from this conversation? 774 00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:56,500 Steven. I think I think he I think you 775 00:41:56,500 --> 00:41:59,200 started the conversation and exactly the right way. 776 00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:02,400 It's kind of fun. It's kind of understanding the 777 00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:08,100 nature of the difference between traditional I am and customer 778 00:42:08,100 --> 00:42:11,800 identity and making sure that you're you're kind of thinking 779 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:16,300 through that decision process of what you're going to do when you 780 00:42:16,300 --> 00:42:21,600 go to undertake your first, you know, see, I Am project and 781 00:42:21,700 --> 00:42:23,900 understanding that decision process, understanding the 782 00:42:23,908 --> 00:42:27,400 trade-offs, understanding those differences that, You know, that 783 00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:30,700 we that we talked through and and making sure that you're 784 00:42:30,700 --> 00:42:33,700 making the right, you know, purchase decision or build 785 00:42:33,700 --> 00:42:37,800 decision or by decision, right? I think that's really the, the 786 00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:39,600 words of wisdom, I would want to leave with Jim. 787 00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:42,800 How about yourself, my parole was some kind of ties back to 788 00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:44,500 the episode. We did with Martin Cooper and 789 00:42:44,500 --> 00:42:48,900 grow. You know, the analyst firms, put 790 00:42:48,900 --> 00:42:55,300 out analysis of a space, like, see, I am and include the major 791 00:42:55,300 --> 00:42:59,300 vendors and some vendors don't. Even make it into that field. 792 00:42:59,300 --> 00:43:03,700 Doesn't mean if they're not in that in that analysts report 793 00:43:03,700 --> 00:43:07,600 that they don't have Merit and just because they are on that 794 00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:09,900 answer for. Maybe they're the the furthest 795 00:43:09,900 --> 00:43:12,300 up to the right doesn't mean they're right for you. 796 00:43:12,300 --> 00:43:16,900 And I think, you know, Justin having done the amount of 797 00:43:16,908 --> 00:43:19,000 research that I've done. It was tribe acity. 798 00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:21,900 It's it. There's a lot there that 799 00:43:21,900 --> 00:43:27,200 interests me and I think that, you know, I just wanted to the 800 00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:31,600 opportunity to say don't kind of rate vendors off just because 801 00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:35,100 they don't fit into the analyst report where you expect them to, 802 00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:42,000 you know, the at the I think what it's worth doing is like, 803 00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:47,800 including some vendors who wouldn't normally expect to win 804 00:43:48,100 --> 00:43:52,300 three of them into your RFP, or your POC process because the 805 00:43:52,300 --> 00:43:57,300 other thing that happens is our vendors who you know, middle of 806 00:43:57,300 --> 00:44:01,800 the pack or less and three years later that the far upper, right? 807 00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:04,100 There's others who are the four upper, right? 808 00:44:04,100 --> 00:44:08,900 Who get Acquired and then they just drop off the page then you 809 00:44:08,900 --> 00:44:11,900 know, three to five years. So keep those things in mind 810 00:44:12,500 --> 00:44:16,400 that's kind of my role was Demers. 811 00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:18,500 What I'm sitting here thinking about, I think we've mentioned 812 00:44:18,500 --> 00:44:20,900 this before, you know, and I'll supports are great, they should 813 00:44:20,900 --> 00:44:23,800 be a data point to take as part of the decision but they should 814 00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:26,300 not be the decision and unfortunately I still see a lot 815 00:44:26,300 --> 00:44:28,200 of companies out there. That you know they only look at 816 00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:30,200 Gartner and if it's not on Gartner we don't care. 817 00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:33,700 They're missing out on a lot of stuff and they're probably you 818 00:44:33,700 --> 00:44:35,600 know paying a lot of money for things, they don't need all you 819 00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:37,900 know sets of things. So my recommendation would be 820 00:44:37,900 --> 00:44:40,800 you know if this if you're looking to solve a particular 821 00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:44,600 solution or specific area should say is talk with people who have 822 00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:46,200 already solved, it talk with people in the space. 823 00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:48,400 Get out there and talk with other people. 824 00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:52,900 In the I am World groups like ID Pro, which have fantastic select 825 00:44:52,900 --> 00:44:55,300 Channel where you can ask questions like this, you know, 826 00:44:55,300 --> 00:44:58,900 ask questions out there because Cuz, you know, the you don't 827 00:44:58,900 --> 00:45:01,900 want to be, you have, you know, you want to have more data 828 00:45:01,900 --> 00:45:03,400 points to have a better decision. 829 00:45:03,500 --> 00:45:07,100 And what's right for your organization versus just taking 830 00:45:07,300 --> 00:45:12,000 the word of Gartner, or cumin or coal or forest or any other, you 831 00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:13,400 know, and these kind of analyst firms. 832 00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:16,700 So, all right, so I think that's enough soap box. 833 00:45:16,700 --> 00:45:18,400 At least it was for me on that topic. 834 00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:22,700 Well go ahead and call it for this week in the show notes will 835 00:45:22,700 --> 00:45:25,100 have a link for folks who want to connect with Stephen on 836 00:45:25,100 --> 00:45:27,200 LinkedIn. People could also Learn more 837 00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:33,400 about serve acity at St. R IV, AC ity.com. 838 00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:35,400 Stir a city like said, show notes. 839 00:45:36,100 --> 00:45:38,600 Link will be in the show notes and we'll also have a couple 840 00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:41,100 links to some of the blog articles that we mentioned. 841 00:45:41,100 --> 00:45:43,700 As part of the conversation here around differences between 842 00:45:43,900 --> 00:45:47,100 Enterprise. I am customer, I am trade-offs 843 00:45:47,100 --> 00:45:50,300 for versus open source, things like that. 844 00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:52,500 So be a wealth of knowledge that people can check out there. 845 00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:55,500 All right, so I think we'll call it Stephen. 846 00:45:55,500 --> 00:45:58,000 Thank you so much for your time. Jim, thank you so much for your 847 00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:01,200 time and we'll talk with everyone in the next one. 848 00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:07,300 Thanks for listening to the identity at the center podcast. 849 00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:09,700 If you like what you heard, don't forget to subscribe and 850 00:46:09,700 --> 00:46:12,400 visit us on the web and identity at the center.com.