1 00:00:09,700 --> 00:00:12,500 You're listening to the identity of the sender podcast. 2 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:15,600 This is a show that talks about identity and access management 3 00:00:15,700 --> 00:00:18,600 and making sure you know who has access to what let's get 4 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:25,300 started. Welcome to the identity of the 5 00:00:25,300 --> 00:00:27,500 sender podcast I'm Jeff and that's Jim. 6 00:00:27,500 --> 00:00:31,100 Hey Jim hey Jeff, how are you? Oh not so bad yourself good. 7 00:00:31,100 --> 00:00:34,200 But a little bit sad I'm having to go through the process of 8 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:37,200 canceling. My reservations for the identity 9 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:40,100 versus conference. Just have too much stuff going 10 00:00:40,100 --> 00:00:43,800 on and I'm not going to be able to make it and I know I've been 11 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:46,700 telling everyone on the podcast recently that I was going to be 12 00:00:46,700 --> 00:00:49,000 there. This podcast is going to go live 13 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:51,800 the day before and I'm very sad that I'm not going to be able to 14 00:00:51,808 --> 00:00:55,400 be there in person, but I'm hoping doing Least be able to 15 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:59,300 catch the sessions virtually. We have lots of friends there. 16 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:02,200 I think I've shared, I won't be there by the time. 17 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:04,000 People are listening. This, I will be neck-deep in 18 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:07,100 boxes. Moving a house moving moving out 19 00:01:07,100 --> 00:01:09,700 of my house and into another house the same week. 20 00:01:09,700 --> 00:01:12,200 So kind of Bittersweet and was looking forward to it. 21 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:15,800 Especially this being the first conference that's being run by 22 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:18,400 different organization than paying kind of truly separates 23 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:21,500 it from, from, from them and makes a little more vendor 24 00:01:21,500 --> 00:01:23,900 neutral method. It wasn't before, but it's been 25 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:25,800 in a while. I was at RS a few weeks ago, and 26 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:28,700 it was cool to kind of see people there, you know, be able 27 00:01:28,700 --> 00:01:32,200 to kind of fist-bump folks that I hadn't seen in a very long 28 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:34,600 time. I did see Vittorio on the 29 00:01:34,607 --> 00:01:38,000 street, I think, after we recorded because we recorded on 30 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:39,900 this tutorial is on the shree Bose. 31 00:01:39,900 --> 00:01:43,900 You like once-over. Now it's one of those things 32 00:01:43,900 --> 00:01:45,900 you're heading your you know every night there's like some 33 00:01:45,900 --> 00:01:48,100 sort of activity and I don't know what he's doing is going to 34 00:01:48,100 --> 00:01:51,600 get food or something like that. I was like done for the day and 35 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:54,800 I saw him from a distance. I mean Miss that hair. 36 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:56,200 We can't miss. I heard, yes. 37 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:57,500 I was like, oh, that's what are you guys like? 38 00:01:57,500 --> 00:02:00,700 And we were working on something specifically for this show, so 39 00:02:00,700 --> 00:02:03,600 we'll get to that in a second. So I kind of want Harry I fist 40 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:06,100 bump him and say, you know, what's going on in chat for a 41 00:02:06,107 --> 00:02:08,600 second and then kind of went on our way is, but that was pretty 42 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:12,200 much like the conference was like, you know, like a 30 43 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:15,200 seconds to one minute to minute fist bump and then like, hustle 44 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:16,900 and bustle off to the next thing that was out there. 45 00:02:16,900 --> 00:02:20,800 But the good news was that you were seeing Victoria on the 46 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:23,800 streets, because he couldn't get a hotel, which I know for sure. 47 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:27,600 Conferences in the past special, ersa that can sometimes be an 48 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:29,900 issue. It is so hard to get a good 49 00:02:29,900 --> 00:02:33,000 hotel for our site. You have to book the day that 50 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:36,700 they announced it, or you are staying far away, you're taking 51 00:02:36,700 --> 00:02:38,500 shuttles or yeah, you're just out of luck. 52 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:40,600 Hopefully, you're not crossing the Bay Bridge. 53 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:44,400 It's a, it's a try to make it but yeah, that's, that's the 54 00:02:44,408 --> 00:02:46,500 approach that we talked about, you know, last time we were 55 00:02:46,500 --> 00:02:49,800 talking about, this was make sure you book early and book, 56 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:53,000 often hotel rooms are going RSA, that's right. 57 00:02:54,100 --> 00:02:58,100 It's all just yeah, this thing that we were talking about with 58 00:02:58,100 --> 00:03:00,900 the torrio that I sort of tease the little bit. 59 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:07,000 This actually came as a result of a conversation that you and 60 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:11,000 myself and Andy hindle who was on the show a few weeks ago kind 61 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:12,500 of we're talking about. I think it was actually even 62 00:03:12,500 --> 00:03:15,200 during like one of just kind of like our pre-meeting kind of 63 00:03:15,208 --> 00:03:17,600 getting setup and mic check and right you know all that good 64 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:21,200 stuff and we're kind of thinking about as you know, has Has the 65 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:25,200 definition of identity and access management changed. 66 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:27,200 It was like okay well that would be kind of an interesting show 67 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:30,000 because I feel like it kind of has and there's a lot of 68 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:32,300 different terms sometimes used for this right? 69 00:03:32,300 --> 00:03:37,000 Digital identity. I am I DM you know all different 70 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:40,200 color of identity words that could be out there and say oh 71 00:03:40,208 --> 00:03:42,600 well maybe we can turn this into a show and my original thought 72 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:46,500 was, hey, let's do like a live panel like, you know, we have 73 00:03:46,500 --> 00:03:48,600 this wide stream, I'm having a little bit of will do it mostly 74 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:52,100 because my schedule sucks. It should be stabilizing here in 75 00:03:52,100 --> 00:03:53,600 a couple of weeks after I get moved. 76 00:03:54,500 --> 00:03:56,100 But I thought was I think it will be interesting to get, you 77 00:03:56,100 --> 00:04:00,100 know, some of the identity as we like to say, you know, on the 78 00:04:00,100 --> 00:04:03,800 show in some way and kind of have a Roundtable discussion and 79 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:06,200 then actually you had the brilliant idea was I want to we 80 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:10,900 just asked people the question and have them email in there. 81 00:04:10,900 --> 00:04:14,700 Are audio response, so I guess Jim you want to kind of take you 82 00:04:14,700 --> 00:04:17,600 take us through the process and how we got to where we are 83 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:18,800 today, and from your perspective. 84 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:21,800 Yeah, you know, I think you do. No, they're pretty good there. 85 00:04:23,100 --> 00:04:26,900 You know, I think what would happen was Andy, kept saying, 86 00:04:26,900 --> 00:04:29,400 digital identity, digital identity, and I thought to 87 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:32,000 myself, whatever happened to I am. 88 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:34,600 And so I asked him that question. 89 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:38,800 What's the difference between digital identity and I am and it 90 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:41,400 kind of stumped them, right? And he's like, well this is a 91 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:44,900 longer answer. This would be a longer answer 92 00:04:44,900 --> 00:04:49,200 than we have time for in, you know, this little bit of the 93 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:51,500 episode. So, We make it a follow-up 94 00:04:51,500 --> 00:04:54,600 episode and then from there, we kind of, as you mentioned 95 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:58,500 evolve, the idea to this kind of Round Table and we're going to 96 00:04:58,500 --> 00:05:02,900 go through the recordings that were submitted in the order they 97 00:05:02,900 --> 00:05:05,800 were said to us, so no particular order. 98 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:09,400 But do you want to go through and kind of like mention each 99 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:12,700 person and played the clip and then comment? 100 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:16,500 Yeah, I will emcee this and so the oh yeah, the way it's worked 101 00:05:16,500 --> 00:05:19,600 was, you know, Jim spammed everybody that we could think of 102 00:05:19,900 --> 00:05:22,900 sending Male to say hey here's the question if you wanted to 103 00:05:22,900 --> 00:05:26,100 record like a two to three minute, sort of answer on what 104 00:05:26,100 --> 00:05:29,000 your thoughts are and the question that we posed to 105 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:32,400 everyone, was this, what's the difference between digital 106 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:35,300 identity and identity and access management really kind of 107 00:05:35,300 --> 00:05:36,900 looking to see? You know, what the different 108 00:05:36,900 --> 00:05:40,500 responses where we got responses from a few different people. 109 00:05:41,300 --> 00:05:44,500 We have Ann Glaser, he's a senior vice president identity 110 00:05:44,500 --> 00:05:46,700 product management. At Salesforce, he's a friend of 111 00:05:46,707 --> 00:05:49,400 the show been on the show before Sarah such a tea. 112 00:05:49,500 --> 00:05:52,500 She's the head of product. Amazon Cognito another person 113 00:05:52,500 --> 00:05:54,500 who's been on the show, actually all these people have gone to 114 00:05:54,500 --> 00:05:58,200 show, he's mailer Chief technologist, technology officer 115 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:01,900 at Ford Rock, we've got Adam Michael, who's a data management 116 00:06:01,900 --> 00:06:06,400 officer and director for it risk identity and Adjunct professor 117 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:10,400 at Texas A&M University and then our old friend Jamie Lewis 118 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:12,700 grows, who's the vice president Solutions, engineering and 119 00:06:12,700 --> 00:06:15,700 strategy at stadiums. So, now by saying that Jeff 120 00:06:15,700 --> 00:06:18,000 you're not calling Jamie old, right? 121 00:06:18,100 --> 00:06:20,200 Here's your beautiful friend for a long time. 122 00:06:20,500 --> 00:06:24,200 She has and I think I'm, I think I am older than she is. 123 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:29,400 So she I've got her beat on that one, but here's his inches like 124 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:32,200 when she let you listen. So if you're listening to the 125 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:36,000 show and you stick around for when Jamie gets into hers let's 126 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:37,800 just say she ages herself as well. 127 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:42,200 How about that of her own you know volition whether it is 128 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:44,800 sorry JB don't mean to throw you under the bus but you start off 129 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:46,500 with it. But yeah. 130 00:06:46,500 --> 00:06:49,900 And the other thing is cool here is I think really the only 131 00:06:49,900 --> 00:06:53,500 answer that Jim has heard so far is Ian's. 132 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:56,900 So the other is Jim hasn't even really kind of listened to and 133 00:06:56,900 --> 00:06:58,800 Jamie's is going to be a complete surprise to the first 134 00:06:58,800 --> 00:06:59,700 time. So, a lot of this will be a 135 00:06:59,707 --> 00:07:03,100 combination of reaction. Mostly on Jim's Park. 136 00:07:03,100 --> 00:07:05,900 I have heard them all because I have added them together and, 137 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:09,200 you know, prepped sort of the Sound Stage here as we're 138 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:11,400 recording. So it'll be interesting. 139 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:13,400 So why don't we go ahead and get started? 140 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:16,300 And the question again, as we ask people was what's the 141 00:07:16,300 --> 00:07:19,700 difference between digital identity and identity and access 142 00:07:19,700 --> 00:07:22,500 management And this first clip is from Ian Glazer. 143 00:07:23,100 --> 00:07:25,000 So at first, I thought that this question. 144 00:07:25,300 --> 00:07:27,900 What's the difference between I am and digital identity was an 145 00:07:27,900 --> 00:07:31,900 easy one to answer and then I realized it's absolutely not. 146 00:07:32,300 --> 00:07:36,000 And it's the reason why it's not, it's not because if you ask 147 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:39,200 three identity people, what their definition is of a 148 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:41,700 specific identity term. You'll get six answers. 149 00:07:42,300 --> 00:07:47,500 It's because in within the question is actually a bunch of 150 00:07:47,500 --> 00:07:51,000 different issues So I think at the surface layer, the 151 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:57,600 difference is in my mind, I am. Although it used to be the way, 152 00:07:58,300 --> 00:08:01,900 certainly analyst referred to the General market of digital 153 00:08:01,900 --> 00:08:07,200 identity has become shorthand for Workforce, identity, and 154 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:10,000 access management. So I think in sort of more 155 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:14,200 modern parlance, I am is the work force equivalent of Siam. 156 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:18,500 Okay. And so then that's true. 157 00:08:18,700 --> 00:08:23,000 We're left wanting an umbrella term that could cover both 158 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:28,300 Workforce, identity, and Siam and all the other bits that are 159 00:08:28,300 --> 00:08:32,200 starting to become integral to the industry. 160 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:37,299 And so to me, digital identity has become that umbrella term 161 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:40,900 problem is that's not entirely ideal. 162 00:08:42,100 --> 00:08:45,600 It certainly leaves areas out of the conversation. 163 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:48,900 So for example, if you talk to an identity practitioner Then 164 00:08:48,900 --> 00:08:51,600 you say hey do you work on identity theft? 165 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:55,500 The likely say no that's not Identity or that's not the 166 00:08:55,500 --> 00:09:00,300 identity I work on and if you you know, ask another 167 00:09:00,300 --> 00:09:05,600 practitioner about you know, how much they do in terms of source, 168 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:09,700 documentation verification for legal identity, bound to a 169 00:09:09,708 --> 00:09:12,100 digital credential depending on industry. 170 00:09:12,100 --> 00:09:16,300 And they may say well I don't do that at all and so the identity 171 00:09:16,300 --> 00:09:20,800 and identity documents which off Often come from the physical 172 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:22,800 world and now are starting to make their way in the digital 173 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:25,200 world that often gets left out of the conversation to. 174 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:29,300 So the reason why I'm thinking about these things is because 175 00:09:29,300 --> 00:09:34,800 boundaries are important in names in this case really come 176 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:38,000 with a set of boundaries and that helps Drive Clarity in the 177 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:41,800 conversation. Well one thing that that you 178 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:46,700 know I realized was actually a couple years ago Andrew Nash at 179 00:09:46,700 --> 00:09:48,500 the time. I think he was with Capital One. 180 00:09:48,900 --> 00:09:52,500 Give me a really good talk. That basically said, hey, you 181 00:09:52,500 --> 00:09:54,200 and the audience think you're doing identity management. 182 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:56,700 What you're probably actually doing is just user account 183 00:09:56,700 --> 00:09:59,300 management and he wasn't being demeaning, he was saying like 184 00:09:59,300 --> 00:10:01,700 look the totality of the things that go into. 185 00:10:01,700 --> 00:10:05,700 What many of us do on a day-to-day basis is user account 186 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:09,800 manipulation assignment of title entitlements doing the identity 187 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:14,200 Plumbing but we weren't doing was the more holistic. 188 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:18,400 I have a digital representation of this legal entity and all of 189 00:10:18,408 --> 00:10:21,400 the Things associated with it, let's manage those things. 190 00:10:21,900 --> 00:10:25,800 Which notionally would be identity management or digital 191 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:31,000 identity management. So coming back around, I think 192 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:33,300 the answer is at the surface level. 193 00:10:33,300 --> 00:10:37,200 I am is now become shorthand for Workforce identity, then all the 194 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:40,200 things associated with a classic Enterprise Workforce, identity, 195 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:42,800 infrastructure and digital identity is the umbrella term 196 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:47,000 for the industry, but I think that's maybe not as exact as it 197 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:49,700 could be. And, you know, Again given the 198 00:10:49,700 --> 00:10:51,800 opportunity to talk about definitions. 199 00:10:52,300 --> 00:10:53,800 Everybody's got a bunch of opinions. 200 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:56,900 Those are mine. Alright so that was Ian Glaser 201 00:10:56,900 --> 00:10:58,600 at Salesforce? What are your thoughts? 202 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:01,900 Jim. I think that he got to the heart 203 00:11:01,900 --> 00:11:05,600 of kind of what I think the difference is, which is that 204 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:12,300 it's a, it's kind of how your its wording around, you know, 205 00:11:12,300 --> 00:11:15,000 what is the classification of the industry? 206 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,100 Now, he's saying identity and access management has been 207 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:23,800 Become kind of a focus on the workforce part of this whole 208 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:27,400 digital identity space, whereas I think is kind of like a 209 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:31,000 historical change this happens, like we started out with the 210 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:34,300 industry of identity and access management and yes it was 211 00:11:34,300 --> 00:11:37,500 Workforce. And yes you know at the time if 212 00:11:37,500 --> 00:11:40,000 you look at the solutions that were on the market, they were 213 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:44,800 identity Management Solutions, wasn't even IGA and their access 214 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:46,400 Management Solutions that they were. 215 00:11:46,700 --> 00:11:48,500 How do you protect your websites? 216 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:51,800 Less about federating out. There's more about protecting 217 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:56,200 the systems that you had so the classification identity and 218 00:11:56,208 --> 00:12:00,000 access management did it very well for the time and then as 219 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:05,000 what kind of start to build up in the space kind of grew and 220 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:10,600 added new scope, it kind of stretch and the term identity 221 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:14,800 and access management. I feel like became less 222 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:18,400 descriptive of what this whole Space has become. 223 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:21,600 Come, which includes customer identity management, which 224 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:25,400 includes self Sovereign, identity, and identity. 225 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:29,200 Verification of these things that no longer to determine 226 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:31,900 identity and access management fit very well. 227 00:12:31,900 --> 00:12:35,500 And I think the term digital identity has been around for a 228 00:12:35,508 --> 00:12:39,800 while, but people weren't really taking it seriously, until 229 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:44,100 within the last. Let's say, 34 years, where I 230 00:12:44,100 --> 00:12:47,500 feel like it's, you know, people are starting to now break from 231 00:12:47,500 --> 00:12:51,500 using I Am I still use? I am but that's kind of the way 232 00:12:51,500 --> 00:12:54,100 I am. I still write with a pen on a 233 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:59,000 piece of paper sometimes and the term digital identity is kind of 234 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:04,700 taking over which encompasses this much larger area and I 235 00:13:04,700 --> 00:13:07,000 think it's probably just more appropriate. 236 00:13:07,100 --> 00:13:08,300 Yeah. One thing that he said that 237 00:13:08,300 --> 00:13:13,400 struck me was this delineation between I am as being like 238 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:18,200 Workforce and Siam or customer identity access management. 239 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:22,100 I know you of I have really kind of figured out some of that 240 00:13:22,100 --> 00:13:24,200 stuff as we were kind of talking over the last couple of years. 241 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:25,500 We've started to call it, like, E. 242 00:13:25,500 --> 00:13:29,700 I am Enterprise. I am versus Siam or see, I am 243 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:32,200 customer. I am maybe it's not easy. 244 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:35,300 I am maybe it's w. I Am Workforce identity and 245 00:13:35,300 --> 00:13:39,900 access management or maybe why I am Prince, I am right, things 246 00:13:39,900 --> 00:13:41,400 like that. But I think it is interesting 247 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:44,000 that the definition clearly has changed. 248 00:13:44,500 --> 00:13:48,300 I'm a little surprised, not surprised because we're going to 249 00:13:48,300 --> 00:13:52,200 have more More answers here at the perspective that it seemed 250 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:54,400 to me. When I was taking is that I am 251 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:59,400 sort of fits underneath the umbrella of digital identity. 252 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:02,600 I can see a situation where people might have a definition 253 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:06,400 of digital identity as sort of like a Civic or citizen type 254 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:08,200 identity. Will be interesting if he is. 255 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:12,000 You listen here to some of the other folks that we've got, if 256 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:15,600 you know, how, how close are some of these definitions and 257 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:17,900 how different some of them are, because I think the perspectives 258 00:14:17,900 --> 00:14:19,100 really are pretty. Different. 259 00:14:19,900 --> 00:14:23,000 Why do we go ahead and get into Sarah's such a tea? 260 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:25,500 Next? She's with Amazon Cognito, we 261 00:14:25,500 --> 00:14:27,600 asked her, the question. What's the difference between 262 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:30,500 digital identity and identity and access management? 263 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:33,400 What's the difference between I am and digital identity? 264 00:14:33,900 --> 00:14:37,000 I was tempted to say there is no difference between I and digital 265 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:39,800 identity, and I suspect that's what many experts will tell you, 266 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:43,200 but that's not true. There's a very important and 267 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:46,600 over, which difference, there's a division of the US government 268 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:49,100 called the National Institute for standards and Acknowledge 269 00:14:49,100 --> 00:14:51,400 our nests and their job is to measure things. 270 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:55,000 How long is a meter? Ask Nest, how heavy is a 271 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:56,600 kilogram? Ask missed. 272 00:14:57,300 --> 00:14:59,700 Well in the 21st century, they started measuring not just 273 00:14:59,700 --> 00:15:02,800 physical things, but digital things like security and 274 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:05,000 identity. They wrote a document called 275 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:09,500 special publication 800-53. The publication outlined a way 276 00:15:09,500 --> 00:15:13,100 to measure how strong an identity transaction was and it 277 00:15:13,100 --> 00:15:15,000 used in measure, called level of assurance. 278 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:17,700 How sure can I be that the person at the end of the line is 279 00:15:17,700 --> 00:15:19,800 who they say they are. R, as that document went into 280 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:22,200 broad use, they found it had cracks in its armor. 281 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:25,000 It wasn't doing the job that it was intended to do because it 282 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:28,200 was too one-dimensional, and it was one dimensional and exactly, 283 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:29,600 the access that we're focusing on. 284 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:33,400 In this episode, it conflated, I am with digital identity. 285 00:15:34,100 --> 00:15:36,200 It said that the strongest transactions have both strong 286 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,300 authentication mechanisms and strong identity proofing, 287 00:15:39,700 --> 00:15:42,300 meaning that we verified the real-life identity of the person 288 00:15:42,300 --> 00:15:45,700 at the end of the line. But that measured me leaves no 289 00:15:45,700 --> 00:15:47,600 room. For a very important use case 290 00:15:48,100 --> 00:15:50,000 stronger. The authenticated Anonymous 291 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:52,300 users. Imagine a political dissident 292 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:54,900 who wants to tell the story of what she's experiencing in her 293 00:15:54,900 --> 00:15:57,900 country but she needs to keep her identity hidden that her 294 00:15:57,900 --> 00:16:00,700 government won't find her. Do we need strong authentication 295 00:16:00,700 --> 00:16:02,500 for that person? Absolutely. 296 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:05,100 We need to use the strongest technology we have to make sure 297 00:16:05,100 --> 00:16:07,500 that her lines of communication haven't been compromised. 298 00:16:08,100 --> 00:16:09,700 Do we need strong identity proofing? 299 00:16:09,700 --> 00:16:12,500 Shouldn't person. No identity proofing. 300 00:16:12,500 --> 00:16:14,700 That person could actually compromise her safety. 301 00:16:15,300 --> 00:16:17,600 We need strong. I am without strong digital 302 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:20,100 identity. That's one missed hired a team 303 00:16:20,100 --> 00:16:22,900 of identity experts, including myself to rewrite the whole 304 00:16:22,900 --> 00:16:24,800 concept of identity verification. 305 00:16:25,300 --> 00:16:27,100 We throughout the one-dimensional limiter and made 306 00:16:27,100 --> 00:16:30,000 it three dimensional. Now, instead of one level of 307 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:32,700 assurance, there are three identity Assurance level 308 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:36,100 authenticator Assurance level and Federation Assurance level 309 00:16:36,500 --> 00:16:39,900 because I am and digital identity are, and must remain 310 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:41,600 different. All right, so what do you think 311 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:45,000 about saris answer? Well, I think that that's a very 312 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,100 good use case, right? And I haven't hadn't thought of 313 00:16:48,100 --> 00:16:51,900 that. I can see where she's coming 314 00:16:51,900 --> 00:16:53,700 from. Yeah, I mean that, I mean, it's 315 00:16:53,700 --> 00:16:55,500 obviously, you know, given the state of the world, right? 316 00:16:55,500 --> 00:16:58,800 The the political dissidents and government distances and things 317 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:01,900 like that, that are happening, certainly makes the case for. 318 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:05,400 Okay. So, what is what is addition to 319 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:10,300 definition of digital identity and she's exported it into three 320 00:17:10,300 --> 00:17:13,900 dimensions is, are those enough Dimensions? 321 00:17:13,900 --> 00:17:16,000 Is there a fourth dimension space and time? 322 00:17:16,099 --> 00:17:19,800 It may be, you know what? Is the the right way to look at 323 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:25,200 or maybe maybe the definition changes based on the use case 324 00:17:25,500 --> 00:17:26,800 which might be a little bit tricky to. 325 00:17:27,300 --> 00:17:31,900 Yeah I remember in the early days of I am some people kind of 326 00:17:31,900 --> 00:17:36,100 making the argument, I'm Jim McDonald. 327 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:41,300 So why can't I just be Jim McDonald whether I'm using my 328 00:17:41,700 --> 00:17:45,100 Google login or my corporate login? 329 00:17:45,100 --> 00:17:48,300 I'm still the same person. I think the case is Sir. 330 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:52,800 I was making is that sometimes I don't want you to know that Jim 331 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:57,100 McDonald make this statement because if I speak out I make 332 00:17:57,100 --> 00:18:00,200 disappear the next day. So there are times where 333 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:03,900 Anonymous is what I want to be. I want to separate that 334 00:18:03,900 --> 00:18:10,100 authentication so my right to access that account from who I 335 00:18:10,100 --> 00:18:14,400 am as a person. I think the you know the other 336 00:18:14,500 --> 00:18:17,000 aspect to this could be just thinking about. 337 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:21,300 It is it could be The identity of things which again is kind of 338 00:18:21,900 --> 00:18:27,500 fallen into originally fell into I am maybe wasn't the best fit, 339 00:18:27,700 --> 00:18:31,300 definitely under the digital identity umbrella but you know, 340 00:18:31,300 --> 00:18:36,500 I think that it's it's one of the biggest conundrums of I am 341 00:18:36,500 --> 00:18:40,400 or digital identity is does the thing really have an identity? 342 00:18:40,500 --> 00:18:41,700 Yeah. And it in the same way as a 343 00:18:41,700 --> 00:18:44,400 person with the timing with the the news out of Google, right? 344 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:46,800 With one of the one of the folks in Google saying that they're 345 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:49,400 aii. This is his Come sentient, or at 346 00:18:49,408 --> 00:18:51,500 least appears to be your, some like that. 347 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:55,500 Yeah, I mean, does does a thing have an identity. 348 00:18:55,500 --> 00:18:57,300 I mean, clearly there's internet of things. 349 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,000 And now, I think we're stretching into the line of 350 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:06,500 digital identity of things. So does a smart thermostat, 351 00:19:06,900 --> 00:19:09,600 which clearly lives in the real world, I can touch it. 352 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:15,700 It has its own digital identity on the network, or you know, 353 00:19:15,700 --> 00:19:18,000 whatever it may be the platform that it's connected to. 354 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:20,900 I think I feel like if this was a video podcast, I'd be like 355 00:19:21,100 --> 00:19:25,400 using that exploding brain gift right now, we're going to be 356 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:26,900 coming out of the top of your head. 357 00:19:27,300 --> 00:19:29,700 Yeah, exactly. All right. 358 00:19:29,700 --> 00:19:31,000 Why don't we move to the next one? 359 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:34,200 This is Eve Mahler. She's a chief technology officer 360 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:36,000 at Ford truck. We asked her. 361 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:39,300 What's the difference between digital identity and identity 362 00:19:39,300 --> 00:19:43,600 and access management Identity language has been a contentious 363 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:48,900 subject for a long time thinking back to the beginnings of iiw, 364 00:19:48,900 --> 00:19:52,200 the internet identity Workshop, the original effort by that 365 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:55,600 Community was to actually develop a lexicon comprehensive. 366 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:58,500 Lexicon. It was tough going then and I 367 00:19:58,508 --> 00:20:01,200 think it's always tough going in this area. 368 00:20:01,900 --> 00:20:07,000 How I see digital identity as a phrase is that it applies to the 369 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,100 users of or the interactors with identity. 370 00:20:10,300 --> 00:20:14,900 Technology. And I see, I am as being about 371 00:20:15,300 --> 00:20:19,700 the implementation of identity technology in whatever guys. 372 00:20:20,300 --> 00:20:23,100 So, when it comes to digital identity, the kind of the user 373 00:20:23,100 --> 00:20:26,700 perspective, you know, most people interact with identity in 374 00:20:26,708 --> 00:20:29,900 a way that actually isn't all that Pleasant identity theft is 375 00:20:29,900 --> 00:20:31,800 probably the first thing that comes to mind. 376 00:20:32,100 --> 00:20:34,800 And a lot of times that interaction is actually in an 377 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:39,400 offline fashion versus an online runtime authentication. 378 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:44,100 For example, Fashion. When it comes to, I am that term 379 00:20:44,100 --> 00:20:46,900 itself is, is a bucket for a lot of other different things and 380 00:20:46,900 --> 00:20:49,300 sometimes they overlap. But I am, sometimes there may be 381 00:20:49,300 --> 00:20:51,800 a little bit apart. So identity management, kind of 382 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:55,300 life cycle, considerations access management, really all 383 00:20:55,300 --> 00:20:59,100 the runtime considerations and also governance and 384 00:20:59,100 --> 00:21:03,400 administration which gets into the world of really operational 385 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:05,200 things. And there's this phrase that I 386 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:09,400 really like lately bolts, which is business, operational, legal, 387 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:13,400 technical answer, societal. So that's kind of the game that 388 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:18,600 you get into when you talk about both the above, the water user 389 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:20,800 considerations and the below, the water, implementer 390 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,800 considerations one, of the things that I find when I just 391 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:27,800 talked with ordinary people out there who don't do what I do 392 00:21:28,100 --> 00:21:33,000 about, what you call the jobs to be done of digital identity. 393 00:21:33,300 --> 00:21:38,000 Is that all of the things people expect to get from this sort of 394 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,900 Technology, it cross-country. Sweet things businesses want as 395 00:21:41,900 --> 00:21:43,800 well. You know, I have a new Venn 396 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:47,200 diagram about this where, I think, in terms of protection, 397 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:51,100 and personalization, and payment, and people, so there 398 00:21:51,100 --> 00:21:55,100 are unique needs among all of those categories and they cross 399 00:21:55,100 --> 00:21:58,900 cut quite a lot of things like achieving security is actually 400 00:21:58,900 --> 00:22:02,200 something that's welcomed by people. 401 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:05,900 And by businesses, it applies across all of the identity 402 00:22:05,900 --> 00:22:08,300 language but I thought that was pretty interesting. 403 00:22:08,300 --> 00:22:11,800 The definition is it? She has for the to, and kind of 404 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:14,100 seems to me like it was it's, you know, changes a little bit, 405 00:22:14,100 --> 00:22:16,200 right? Whether your I am or digital 406 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:19,200 identity, what are you thinking? Yeah, it's interesting because 407 00:22:19,900 --> 00:22:23,200 going to allow my mental definition to adapt. 408 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:25,700 As I hear these recordings because there's really, you 409 00:22:25,700 --> 00:22:28,900 know, as I was listening to Ian that like you said, I was the 410 00:22:28,900 --> 00:22:33,500 only one who listened to you beforehand, kind of saw identity 411 00:22:33,500 --> 00:22:37,700 and access management as a subset of digital identity as 412 00:22:37,700 --> 00:22:40,100 those listening to Yves like kind of thinking there, too. 413 00:22:40,300 --> 00:22:43,700 Separate Concepts rate, identity and access management 414 00:22:43,700 --> 00:22:48,700 potentially is something I do with all these processes to, you 415 00:22:48,700 --> 00:22:52,200 know, manage who gets access to what which I think is the 416 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:55,200 traditional definition right? But then, when I think about 417 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:58,500 digital identity, I'm actually thinking about some 418 00:22:58,500 --> 00:23:03,700 instantiation of say, apple has this concept of who Jim McDonald 419 00:23:03,700 --> 00:23:09,100 is and I can, you know, have apples vision of Jim McDonald 420 00:23:09,100 --> 00:23:13,600 but it really Kind of has a border around it and then Google 421 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:17,600 has a different definition of the digital identity for Jim 422 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:19,800 McDonald. And then as Jim McDonald, I've 423 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:23,400 got all these digital identities running around, maybe they all 424 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,300 tie back to me. But essentially, they're like a 425 00:23:26,300 --> 00:23:30,500 data set that these companies have about me. 426 00:23:30,900 --> 00:23:33,700 They're like a digital fingerprint of me. 427 00:23:33,900 --> 00:23:37,300 Maybe they can grant me access to things within their border. 428 00:23:37,300 --> 00:23:40,600 Maybe they can grab me to access to things beyond my Border. 429 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:44,600 So you know, maybe OCTA has that digital Identity or that 430 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:49,000 thumbprint about Jim McDonald and it can pass me on to concur 431 00:23:49,300 --> 00:23:55,800 for example but yeah, so so maybe rather than I am being a 432 00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:59,100 part of digital identity representing, you know, 433 00:23:59,100 --> 00:24:02,800 Workforce or even some set of Technologies. 434 00:24:03,100 --> 00:24:08,400 It's it is that Workforce set of Technologies, how I go and 435 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:10,600 manage. But then the digital Identity is 436 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,900 a separate concept which is these companies have this 437 00:24:14,500 --> 00:24:18,200 fingerprint this data set about me and that is with digital 438 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,700 identity is yeah, I think it's interesting if we take that 439 00:24:21,700 --> 00:24:24,600 concept of okay, when it's concept digital identity and 440 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,400 separate out from what is identity and access management, 441 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:31,400 it's typically a collection of services that are being done. 442 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,300 Its identity management, its access management privileged 443 00:24:34,300 --> 00:24:36,700 access government student Administration, make things that 444 00:24:36,700 --> 00:24:41,900 you've mentioned, even even the the The service of running. 445 00:24:41,900 --> 00:24:47,900 And I am program is a service within that, and now you're 446 00:24:47,900 --> 00:24:49,800 starting to help. People are starting to catch on 447 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:53,900 as like, this is hard to Define because people have different 448 00:24:53,900 --> 00:24:57,000 interpretations of, you know, digital identity. 449 00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,400 What does it mean? Does it mean your your 450 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:03,900 fingerprint, you know, so to speak online or other digital 451 00:25:03,900 --> 00:25:08,400 transactions or is it meant to be the overarching? 452 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:12,100 Well, we know it's more than I am and we need to come out 453 00:25:12,100 --> 00:25:14,500 somehow say that. Well, we both do boats you know, 454 00:25:14,500 --> 00:25:16,600 I am from an Enterprise perspective but you also do it 455 00:25:16,608 --> 00:25:20,400 from a customer side and you know, we do other things other 456 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:22,200 than technology, maybe it's program. 457 00:25:22,300 --> 00:25:24,500 You know, does that fit under the bucket or that definition? 458 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:27,300 I think it's interesting. You know, as we're kind of going 459 00:25:27,300 --> 00:25:30,000 along. I was certainly I certainly had 460 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:34,500 sort of a in my head definition and as I listened to these over 461 00:25:34,500 --> 00:25:37,500 and over and over again, stir that through the editing process 462 00:25:37,500 --> 00:25:42,300 and prepping the show it. Changed a little bit and now 463 00:25:42,300 --> 00:25:47,100 I'll be honest, I'm not sure what to think it's so let's keep 464 00:25:47,100 --> 00:25:51,500 going and let's now hear from Adam Michael over at Texas A&M 465 00:25:51,500 --> 00:25:55,900 and what his answer was to the question of what's the 466 00:25:55,908 --> 00:25:58,400 difference between digital identity and identity and access 467 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:00,100 management? When I think about the 468 00:26:00,100 --> 00:26:05,000 difference between I am and digital identity, I really think 469 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:12,000 that they are overlapping sets. So I see digital T as being a 470 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:16,800 key component of an overall, I am strategy so digital identity 471 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:20,900 to me and I'm coming from the perspective of a higher 472 00:26:20,900 --> 00:26:26,200 education environment, but so much of what we do now, learning 473 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:31,100 and research is moving to an online environment and the 474 00:26:31,100 --> 00:26:34,700 ability to authenticate someone and know that, okay, if Joe 475 00:26:34,700 --> 00:26:38,400 student is taking a test, we actually have the correct person 476 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,000 on the other end of the online resources. 477 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:44,900 Taking that test, right? It's important that we have an 478 00:26:44,900 --> 00:26:49,600 easy way for our students and our faculty to assert their 479 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:53,200 identity, in a digital space. Now that's just step one. 480 00:26:53,300 --> 00:26:57,800 Write authentication, and saying that this person actually is who 481 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,700 they say they are. But when we talk about, I am it 482 00:27:00,700 --> 00:27:04,700 goes beyond that and we have this concept of giving them 483 00:27:04,700 --> 00:27:07,900 access to resources. So once we've verified their 484 00:27:07,900 --> 00:27:12,200 identity in a digital space, we To be able to grant them access 485 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:17,000 to the right things in the right way and the right time, right? 486 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,800 So that's the access component in I am. 487 00:27:20,300 --> 00:27:25,200 And so I really see digital identity and I am as being very 488 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:30,000 closely related and maybe even overlapping sets I am being the 489 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:33,600 superset of something. A concept that digital identity 490 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:37,200 fits inside, all right? So remember when I was saying 491 00:27:37,500 --> 00:27:40,400 maybe digital identities overall Adam, when a different way, He 492 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:45,200 sees it the opposite where digital identity is a component 493 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,400 of identity and access management, which I can kind of 494 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:49,900 get behind as well. What are you thinking? 495 00:27:50,100 --> 00:27:53,300 Yeah, because show you that. There's there's no wrong answer 496 00:27:53,300 --> 00:27:57,800 here. It's it definitely makes you 497 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:02,300 think because I think it kind of even brings in that concept of 498 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:07,800 the thumbprint. Now I assert or I authenticate 499 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,800 myself, is I am Jim McDonald. Now, you can take that 500 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:15,100 thumbprint of data and you know, go go ahead and Associate it 501 00:28:15,108 --> 00:28:18,500 with me through whatever interface I'm using. 502 00:28:18,500 --> 00:28:21,500 And when he thinks about identity and access management, 503 00:28:21,500 --> 00:28:25,000 it's all those processes that are included. 504 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:29,800 So, I mean, that's definitely a valuable perspective. 505 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,200 It. I think what's so interesting is 506 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:36,400 like that. You can have two people who live 507 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:41,300 in this world independently come up with, totally Opposite, you 508 00:28:41,300 --> 00:28:45,300 know, configurations of which one encompasses the other. 509 00:28:45,300 --> 00:28:48,300 That that's why I think it is. Such a good question. 510 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,000 Well, here's another wrinkle throught. 511 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:54,100 So, the people that we asked, Adam is the only one that's 512 00:28:54,100 --> 00:28:58,100 actually in the business side of is practitioner is not, yeah, 513 00:28:58,100 --> 00:29:01,500 he's a practitioner, right? He's not a vendor, he's not an 514 00:29:01,500 --> 00:29:05,300 identity person. For example, right, he has more 515 00:29:05,300 --> 00:29:09,600 on the business delivery of identity Services, rather than a 516 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:14,500 product. T', person which Ian, Sarah Eve 517 00:29:14,500 --> 00:29:17,700 and Jamie coming up, are all more on the identity product 518 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:20,200 side of things. So it is interesting to hear 519 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,000 sort of like the business definition or do business 520 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,200 answer. You know, from someone like that 521 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:26,800 to say, okay. Well here's here's how the 522 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:28,500 business of Senate, which I thought was interesting. 523 00:29:28,700 --> 00:29:34,000 Yeah, I think one of the things that I also have was thinking 524 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:38,500 about is, you know, especially like Ian's case and Yves case, 525 00:29:38,500 --> 00:29:41,500 because I think the first time, Met the two of them is close to 526 00:29:41,500 --> 00:29:45,900 20 years ago at identity and access management conferences 527 00:29:45,900 --> 00:29:48,400 and they were part of this identity arathi, right? 528 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:52,500 And there's many other folks who were kind of there in that is 529 00:29:52,700 --> 00:29:57,100 that I am was this, you know, especially conferences, were 530 00:29:57,300 --> 00:30:01,100 people really talking about was what is an identity like these 531 00:30:01,100 --> 00:30:03,400 really philosophical conversation? 532 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,900 And I've been in it at that point for probably about, you 533 00:30:06,900 --> 00:30:10,000 know, eight years. I was like, I've never run into 534 00:30:10,100 --> 00:30:17,100 Into a new look with in it wears like all about are so much of it 535 00:30:17,100 --> 00:30:22,000 was about the philosophy of what we're doing here and so that's 536 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:26,200 really what the roots of I am. And so I kind of heard that a 537 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:31,200 lot in their answer as well as kind of that coming from those 538 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,500 roots. Deep thinkers deeper thinkers. 539 00:30:34,500 --> 00:30:35,600 Yeah, for sure. All right. 540 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:39,200 Why don't we go to Jamie Lewis Grace and her answer to the 541 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:41,900 question of, what's the difference between a digital 542 00:30:41,900 --> 00:30:44,300 identity and a dating access management? 543 00:30:44,300 --> 00:30:48,400 And she's from sabian's, I was asked what's the difference 544 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,500 between I am and digital identity? 545 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:56,100 Well, this is a lot to unpack in a very short amount of time, 546 00:30:56,500 --> 00:30:58,400 because I've been at this for a very long time. 547 00:30:58,700 --> 00:31:03,200 And I've seen the industry evolve, I am Identity and access 548 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:07,000 management. So early on I am was often 549 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:11,800 synonymous with authentication it then pushed into automation 550 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:16,700 of processes password management efficiency gains reduction of 551 00:31:16,700 --> 00:31:20,000 cost. Ultimately I saw I am become the 552 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:24,400 umbrella of Technologies and policies to manage access and 553 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,200 mitigate risk. Inclusive of not only 554 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:32,000 authentication single sign-on and multi-factor but then 555 00:31:32,100 --> 00:31:35,000 Started to extend into privileged access management 556 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:39,100 identity governance and administration risk profiling. 557 00:31:39,100 --> 00:31:44,400 Authorization are back a back P vac and the focus was really 558 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:48,300 always all in the workforce at least from from my experience 559 00:31:48,300 --> 00:31:52,300 and so that brings me to digital identity. 560 00:31:52,300 --> 00:31:57,300 So digital identity has extended Beyond just the carbon-based 561 00:31:57,300 --> 00:32:01,800 identities of our Workforce, our vendors, our suppliers, our 562 00:32:02,100 --> 00:32:07,000 Contractors. It's encompassing of b2c, B2B G 563 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,700 to C, but also was very important to understand is it's 564 00:32:10,700 --> 00:32:16,000 taken on the Silicon identities to those not, well managed 565 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:20,900 service accounts and included, certificates Keys devices, 566 00:32:20,900 --> 00:32:25,000 workloads containers. It goes on and on think about 567 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,600 it, as you know all of the machine related identities that 568 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:32,300 are out there and what's happening is with digital This 569 00:32:32,300 --> 00:32:36,700 formation initiatives there is a exponential growth of connected 570 00:32:36,700 --> 00:32:40,600 devices and these machine identities use to manage process 571 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,400 Automation. And it's really creating that 572 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:49,700 larger surface and and threat attack Vector, really opening 573 00:32:49,700 --> 00:32:52,700 organizations up to the Cyber vulnerabilities. 574 00:32:53,100 --> 00:32:57,700 So you know, when we also think about digital identity often we 575 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:03,200 also think about the specific personal data So whether it be 576 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:07,700 personas on social media, whether it be someone's online 577 00:33:07,700 --> 00:33:13,600 bank account access to Amazon Netflix, that's all digital 578 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:16,200 identity as well. And then, there's that digital 579 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:18,600 blueprint that really is surrounding us. 580 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:21,500 We rely on it. It might be the nest thermostat 581 00:33:21,500 --> 00:33:23,900 in your home. Your home Wireless, the security 582 00:33:23,900 --> 00:33:28,100 systems that surround you. The list goes on and on personal 583 00:33:28,100 --> 00:33:32,000 identity in the digital format is as Limitless. 584 00:33:32,100 --> 00:33:36,200 Our data's continually analyzed and it's, it's used, it's used 585 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:38,700 against us. It positions, adds to us, it 586 00:33:38,700 --> 00:33:40,400 sells to us. It's funny. 587 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:44,300 Just the other day. My 84 year old father-in-law, 588 00:33:44,300 --> 00:33:46,800 was essentially taken advantage of. 589 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:50,600 Because he did an innocent search at the library, looking 590 00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:53,100 into knee pain. And before, you know, it he's 591 00:33:53,100 --> 00:33:57,600 purchasing something online that, you know, has little 592 00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:00,600 information about it, but it was served up to him through an ad. 593 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:04,300 So there's just so much Much more I could go on and on about 594 00:34:04,300 --> 00:34:07,500 and discuss. But I want to end by saying 595 00:34:07,500 --> 00:34:11,699 that, you know, right now, for personal digital identity and 596 00:34:11,699 --> 00:34:14,500 the information that's used. There's very little control. 597 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:18,800 So as we go forward in a world of evolution, you know, I think 598 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:22,600 that the future is really going to demand better protection and 599 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:27,699 controls of the personal information and with that, you 600 00:34:27,699 --> 00:34:31,300 know, in the future maybe my father-in-law won't blindly 601 00:34:31,300 --> 00:34:34,400 purchase some Misguided product for his knee pain. 602 00:34:34,699 --> 00:34:37,300 So I hope I have answered your question today. 603 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,199 All right, well, first of all, a couple notes, a hopefully her 604 00:34:40,199 --> 00:34:41,699 father-in-law's knee is feeling better. 605 00:34:42,199 --> 00:34:43,699 Second of all. I'm going to give her bonus 606 00:34:43,699 --> 00:34:47,600 points for using the term. Carbon-based life-forms is part 607 00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,199 of her answer and then third circling back to the very 608 00:34:50,199 --> 00:34:53,500 beginning when age was brought into it. 609 00:34:53,500 --> 00:34:55,600 She's the one who said she's been doing this for a long time, 610 00:34:55,699 --> 00:34:57,600 not me, there you go. I think it's, I think it's 611 00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:01,400 interesting that she brought up the Privacy angle and the really 612 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:03,400 kind of private think it's that kind of go hand in hand with 613 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:05,500 those some of those. And it's the first time that 614 00:35:05,500 --> 00:35:09,200 that has been mentioned in this conversation was ownership 615 00:35:09,500 --> 00:35:12,700 really of the attributes of the digital identity and how they're 616 00:35:12,700 --> 00:35:14,600 used. So, yes. 617 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:18,800 And so here's what I was thinking as I was listening to 618 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:22,300 Jamie, is that there's two ways? This question could be 619 00:35:22,300 --> 00:35:26,800 interpreted, one is, what do people mean when they say, 620 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:30,300 digital identity versus identity and access management? 621 00:35:30,300 --> 00:35:34,100 So in other words, when people use the Those terms, what are 622 00:35:34,107 --> 00:35:38,200 they trying to differentiate? Or when you hear those terms? 623 00:35:38,300 --> 00:35:41,800 What do you think of? And then there's the question of 624 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:44,800 what should those terms mean, right? 625 00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:48,700 And I think if you answer that it might be a different answer 626 00:35:48,700 --> 00:35:53,000 than the previous question. So as I've been listening to 627 00:35:53,008 --> 00:35:56,100 these responses, I'm getting more and more on the side that 628 00:35:56,400 --> 00:36:04,000 digital identity is really this thumbprint Of who of data about 629 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:05,800 you. Now, one thing that I've run 630 00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:10,100 into overtime in the identity and access management consulting 631 00:36:10,100 --> 00:36:12,800 or digital identity Consulting, whatever you want to call it 632 00:36:13,100 --> 00:36:19,500 right is Winters. That data, stop being, I am 633 00:36:19,500 --> 00:36:23,400 data, right? So when what data is I and 634 00:36:23,700 --> 00:36:26,500 actually one thing I would differ differentiate from what 635 00:36:26,500 --> 00:36:29,900 Jamie said, but I first got into identity and access management 636 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,200 it seemed like it was all about Directory synchronization and 637 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:35,800 ldap data, and we got all the cell data. 638 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,800 How do we manage the ldap data? And then the applications are 639 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:42,200 going to bind to the ldap and authenticate or of an access 640 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,000 management system that binds the of that but is all about 641 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,000 directories. But you know what used to be the 642 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:52,300 boundary of what was identity data or digital at your digital 643 00:36:52,300 --> 00:36:55,400 Identity. Or I am data was what was in the 644 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:59,300 directory? I think that what we found with 645 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:02,600 virtual directories is now you Can expand that out and they 646 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:06,700 take it to another sub match. If we had Dan Creed from meta, 647 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,600 answer this question, what is the digital identity? 648 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:13,700 What it, what is your digital identity thumbprint well, now 649 00:37:13,700 --> 00:37:18,200 it's, you know, all these different data points that you 650 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:21,500 can, you couldn't even imagine where are you? 651 00:37:21,500 --> 00:37:24,100 And you think, well, maybe that's marketing data to me, 652 00:37:24,100 --> 00:37:27,300 that's what like the digital identity data is, where's the 653 00:37:27,300 --> 00:37:31,100 identity and access management is what is the data that? 654 00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:34,600 What you should have access to great. 655 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:37,500 So one, what is my credential data? 656 00:37:37,500 --> 00:37:41,100 What is the data that is needed? For me to authenticate myself? 657 00:37:41,300 --> 00:37:45,100 And then what defines? What's going to give me access? 658 00:37:45,100 --> 00:37:49,300 It could be attributes for attribute based authentication, 659 00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:52,200 or it could be roles and things like that. 660 00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:56,400 But that is my, I am data but it seems to me the digital identity 661 00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,800 goes beyond like what are my shopping preferences? 662 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:04,700 What is my Location, you know, especially like I was at 663 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:08,100 Starbucks the other day or every time I go to Starbucks down if 664 00:38:08,100 --> 00:38:11,000 you get in the drive thru drive by it, it's like, you know, on 665 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,600 your iPhone. It pops up with your Starbucks 666 00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:15,200 app. Like, you know, you can just 667 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:18,800 push this button and go in and and have a latte if you'd like. 668 00:38:19,700 --> 00:38:24,500 So all of that data analysis is kind of extending its marketing 669 00:38:24,500 --> 00:38:28,000 data but it's kind of becomes your digital identity. 670 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,000 I don't know. It's so to me that that could be 671 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:37,000 What actually is a digital identity versus I am not 672 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:40,300 necessarily how the terms you because I believe the terms are 673 00:38:40,300 --> 00:38:44,200 being used as a replacement. I think that when you look at 674 00:38:44,700 --> 00:38:47,600 consulting firms they're just replacing their identity and 675 00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:51,100 access management practice with digital identity. 676 00:38:51,300 --> 00:38:53,500 You're saying yeah we have a digital identity practice. 677 00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:56,300 You know five years ago would have been called their identity 678 00:38:56,300 --> 00:39:00,200 and access management practice. So to me dish identity is 679 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:04,600 replacing identity access management from lexicon 680 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:07,900 standpoint, but I think that they should have a deeper 681 00:39:07,900 --> 00:39:09,200 meaning. That's interesting. 682 00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:11,900 I think I think you're totally right, especially that last 683 00:39:11,900 --> 00:39:15,000 example, there are like Consulting, what do you call? 684 00:39:15,100 --> 00:39:16,800 What is it? You say you would do around 685 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:17,800 here? Well, what are you? 686 00:39:18,500 --> 00:39:21,100 I'm, I am consult a. Yeah, yeah. 687 00:39:21,300 --> 00:39:27,100 Or I'm a digital identity consultant or two people, you 688 00:39:27,100 --> 00:39:30,000 know, how do I, how do I name the practice that I'm, you know, 689 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:33,000 starting and running up is I am. Is it digital identity? 690 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:36,300 Is it secure digital identity? Is it just identity? 691 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:37,600 I don't know. I think it's interesting. 692 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:41,900 I think having listened to, you know, five really smart people 693 00:39:41,900 --> 00:39:47,300 and then us listen to, you know, pontificate on this is, I think 694 00:39:47,300 --> 00:39:51,600 the definition morphs and changes on a couple things. 695 00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:53,900 It's the first is, who were you talking to? 696 00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,000 And the second is, what is the point that you're trying to get 697 00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:00,500 across is if I'm talking to someone who doesn't know 698 00:40:00,500 --> 00:40:03,300 anything? NG about identity and access 699 00:40:03,300 --> 00:40:06,000 management or digital identity, I'm going to try and keep it 700 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:12,000 simple and I might use vaguer language that you know, is maybe 701 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,400 easier to understand or try to articulate versus hey Jim. 702 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:19,200 Let's go talk about why we should be using you know, adfs 703 00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:21,600 for authentication and then you know that's what we should. 704 00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:22,700 That's a bad example. Sorry. 705 00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:25,600 She recently using modern standards for authentication but 706 00:40:25,700 --> 00:40:28,200 you know having a more technical conversation and talking through 707 00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:32,900 identity and access management versus just this Umbrella of 708 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:37,000 identity, which has other connotations to it to write, 709 00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:40,600 especially in the physical world with gender and things like 710 00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:42,200 that. So now we're like, okay, well, 711 00:40:42,900 --> 00:40:47,500 where is the line for identity? I don't know what to tell you. 712 00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:51,300 I think I went into it. Originally with the idea of 713 00:40:51,300 --> 00:40:55,300 like, okay, well, I see, I am as a subset of this broader thing 714 00:40:55,300 --> 00:41:00,400 called digital identity visual identity is the concept of 715 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,800 power. We managing identity and access 716 00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:07,000 management in a digital way, whatever that looks like having 717 00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:11,100 listened to Adam like, okay, I can certainly see that where its 718 00:41:11,100 --> 00:41:14,100 flipped on its head in my world and like, okay, well digital 719 00:41:14,100 --> 00:41:16,800 identity sort of a component of identity and access management. 720 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:18,700 If I say, I think about it from a service standpoint. 721 00:41:18,700 --> 00:41:23,000 What is it that we're actually offering and then you brought me 722 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:24,900 back when you set up your on the Consulting side, how would you 723 00:41:24,908 --> 00:41:27,100 explain what you do? Okay. 724 00:41:27,100 --> 00:41:31,100 Well I run an identity practice. And I think that's how I've been 725 00:41:31,100 --> 00:41:33,400 introducing really kind of myself. 726 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:37,800 Is you know, talk to me about identity and that's kind of 727 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:41,500 where I'd left it so far but I'm sure it will continue to evolve 728 00:41:41,500 --> 00:41:43,600 over time. I think, I think what's 729 00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:47,100 fascinating is, you know, we got five expert opinions and then 730 00:41:47,100 --> 00:41:50,300 ours and between the seven of us. 731 00:41:50,300 --> 00:41:53,500 None of us really had the same answer which I think is why this 732 00:41:53,500 --> 00:41:54,800 made it made it made the question. 733 00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:56,600 So, interesting, when we originally talking with Andy 734 00:41:56,600 --> 00:42:01,000 about it, a few weeks ago and I know my Three evolved throughout 735 00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:04,800 the show. And I bet you if Ian was 736 00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:06,700 listening to, there's other definitions. 737 00:42:06,700 --> 00:42:11,000 There'd be things that folks had said that would, you know, as 738 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:13,700 the conversation evolved? He probably would evolve his 739 00:42:13,700 --> 00:42:17,800 definition as well, because those perspectives, but I think 740 00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:21,500 the end of the day, we did not solve the question, right? 741 00:42:21,500 --> 00:42:27,200 We got, we just showed that this is Something that's in flux 742 00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:32,500 something that's happening. I think, is a fantastic format 743 00:42:32,700 --> 00:42:35,300 for raising some questions like this in the future. 744 00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:39,200 And I mean, I'd love to hear from our listeners. 745 00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:43,600 If this format resonates with you, we can go ahead and do some 746 00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:46,700 more episodes like this. Yeah, I mean, I think it's easy 747 00:42:46,700 --> 00:42:49,300 enough to, you know, record on your phone, just a simple audio 748 00:42:49,300 --> 00:42:52,100 clip. If you've got a definition of, 749 00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:55,900 or at least an answer to the question of what is the Between 750 00:42:55,900 --> 00:42:58,200 digital identity and identity access management. 751 00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:01,600 Is there one, feel free to record something and tag us on. 752 00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:04,200 Hit us up on LinkedIn. You can attach the file there or 753 00:43:04,500 --> 00:43:06,100 we can figure out how to get over to us but I think it's 754 00:43:06,107 --> 00:43:08,700 something continue on. I think with identity versus 755 00:43:08,700 --> 00:43:11,200 hitting this week you know a lot of these folks that we heard 756 00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:16,500 from today - us will be there, you know, ask them, you know, 757 00:43:16,500 --> 00:43:18,200 what do they need about some of the stuff because I think it'll 758 00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:20,600 be interesting to hear. I think it's only right that if 759 00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:24,500 I think if we had all these folks in the room I'd be willing 760 00:43:24,500 --> 00:43:28,400 to bet some parts of each definition would have evolved 761 00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:31,900 just within the last 45 minutes as we've been talking here. 762 00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:36,600 Absolutely. Yeah, so like any good podcast 763 00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:40,000 we didn't we didn't offer any answers, we just talked about it 764 00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:43,200 for 45 minutes, I think, you know people can kind of figure 765 00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:46,200 out and even if we don't have the answer, maybe what we did is 766 00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:49,400 we sparked an idea, right? In someone's listening out there 767 00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:51,100 saying, oh, I never really thought about it from that 768 00:43:51,100 --> 00:43:53,200 angle. I don't think there's a right 769 00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:57,700 answer or wrong answer. I think your is just here's how 770 00:43:57,900 --> 00:44:01,300 I represent. You know, this specific question 771 00:44:01,900 --> 00:44:05,400 and I think I think that's okay. I just got to be Of about who 772 00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:08,100 you're talking to and what's the context of the conversation, 773 00:44:08,500 --> 00:44:11,800 because sometimes things can get lost in translation, but I don't 774 00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:14,200 know if you're necessarily needs to be a right answer, right now. 775 00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:16,800 Does it correct? So I think your robes out and I 776 00:44:16,808 --> 00:44:21,100 think that was kind of what we expected out of this. 777 00:44:21,100 --> 00:44:26,500 And we got what we hope for, we got what we asked for and but 778 00:44:26,500 --> 00:44:29,500 like I said, I think this is a great format so we come up with 779 00:44:29,500 --> 00:44:33,800 some other questions, you know. I think that we could pursue 780 00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:37,900 this Format again. Yeah, definitely. 781 00:44:37,900 --> 00:44:39,400 There's a lot of fun to kind of put this together. 782 00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:42,300 So, all right. So why do we go ahead and start 783 00:44:42,300 --> 00:44:44,400 to wrap things up? I was thinking about, you know, 784 00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:47,200 what's our end on a lighter note for this episode? 785 00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:51,500 And I want to jump on what Jamie was talking about with her 786 00:44:51,500 --> 00:44:55,300 father-in-law and knee pain and some sort of, I don't know 787 00:44:55,300 --> 00:44:58,000 order, purchase whatever that you may or may not be helpful. 788 00:44:58,000 --> 00:44:59,500 Hopefully, it was, but you never know. 789 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:01,500 So, here's my question to you, Jim. 790 00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:04,700 What is the worst or strangest online? 791 00:45:04,900 --> 00:45:10,000 Add, you will admit to that. You have been served based on, 792 00:45:10,300 --> 00:45:12,700 you know, browser, cookies or session history, or whatever. 793 00:45:12,700 --> 00:45:15,000 It may be. Well I'm not going to even go 794 00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:20,200 close to the that I would admit to kind of thing because I think 795 00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:22,100 I gave you that escape hatch just in case. 796 00:45:22,100 --> 00:45:25,600 Yeah, right. So I mean, I wouldn't call 797 00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:28,800 myself a conspiracy theorist, but this one of the strangest 798 00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:33,000 things that happened to me, was, I grew up in Philadelphia, my 799 00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:34,700 brother, obviously grew up there. 800 00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:38,700 As well and I was he still lives there and I was visiting him and 801 00:45:38,700 --> 00:45:44,800 he lives in an older house which that the townhouse style 802 00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:46,900 buildings there they call them row homes. 803 00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:52,500 It was a row home and there's probably 75 100 years old and it 804 00:45:52,508 --> 00:45:58,600 go into his basement and he's got this big plastic sink next 805 00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:01,300 to his washer and dryer. At least always call them 806 00:46:01,300 --> 00:46:04,000 utility sinks. Yeah, that was a beauty utility 807 00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:05,100 square, right? Yeah. 808 00:46:05,100 --> 00:46:07,000 It's like a dip Square. Deep bass. 809 00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:09,300 Yep. And I said I haven't seen one of 810 00:46:09,308 --> 00:46:10,600 those in years. Mike yet. 811 00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:13,100 You know this utility sink and follow. 812 00:46:13,100 --> 00:46:15,600 We had a whole conversation about it and I really hadn't 813 00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:19,700 seen one in years. A couple days later and 814 00:46:19,700 --> 00:46:23,700 advertisement showed up on my laptop in Amazon, like it Amazon 815 00:46:23,700 --> 00:46:28,600 ad for utility sink. And so, the conspiracy theorist 816 00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:33,400 in me, says, somehow, my phone was listening heard utility sink 817 00:46:33,900 --> 00:46:37,900 since some kind of sold, some kind of message to Amazon or 818 00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:41,800 whatever. And they served me up in that. 819 00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:44,700 Did that happen? Probably not. 820 00:46:44,900 --> 00:46:49,500 Maybe just triangulated that I was in this area because I do 821 00:46:49,500 --> 00:46:53,800 think that, you know, location is something that can be served 822 00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:56,300 up, potentially sold to a vendor. 823 00:46:56,900 --> 00:47:01,000 And that maybe there were a lot of utility sink purchases within 824 00:47:01,500 --> 00:47:05,900 that area because I would bet you every row home and that 825 00:47:05,900 --> 00:47:08,600 whole neighborhood have these utility sink. 826 00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:10,600 So you know, that's probably what happened. 827 00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:14,900 But yeah, it got me thinking like okay it's my phone spying 828 00:47:14,900 --> 00:47:16,800 on me. Yeah we've heard I think I've 829 00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:19,800 heard that before too. Like pit level is my phone's by 830 00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:21,600 me. Could it be your brother or 831 00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:25,200 someone you know was searching for utility sinks for something 832 00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:28,800 replacement repair whatever. / and because at no, you know, the 833 00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:31,000 powers that be know that that's her, brother's. 834 00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:32,800 I got a little baby, you might be interested in this as well, 835 00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:39,000 right, or whatever way it looks like mine is weird and strange 836 00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:43,600 slightly offensive, and definitely creepy. 837 00:47:43,700 --> 00:47:47,200 This, I'll never forget this because this was right around 838 00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:49,600 the pandemic. Kind of beginning I want to say 839 00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:52,900 we're about six months into it. It feels like it was ages ago 840 00:47:52,900 --> 00:47:55,900 but I guess that would have been what 20, 20 gruffly. 841 00:47:56,500 --> 00:48:00,100 So I want to say it was probably like around June, maybe July 842 00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:03,100 were a couple months in a lockdown, people, worried do any 843 00:48:03,100 --> 00:48:06,900 things and for whatever reason I was scrolling through I remember 844 00:48:06,900 --> 00:48:10,600 was Facebook or Instagram is one of those two and you know you 845 00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:13,900 get as all time for just weird stuff and stuff that they think 846 00:48:13,900 --> 00:48:16,000 it might be interested surf. Of course, you know watching 847 00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:19,100 your browser history and so forth and I don't know why this 848 00:48:19,100 --> 00:48:23,900 came up, but it was a it was a ad for I don't know. 849 00:48:23,900 --> 00:48:26,300 The right terminology is but it's like you know, it's Banks. 850 00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:31,200 Our where it's like tights for generally for people to like 851 00:48:31,500 --> 00:48:34,700 look like they're Slimmer. Oh, Come usually you'll see 852 00:48:34,700 --> 00:48:37,800 like, you know, I'm sure it's for both sexes, but the ones 853 00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:40,400 that I know of are Spanx are like for women where, you know, 854 00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:42,700 they put it on, it kind of Slim's the figure and so forth. 855 00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:47,800 And this was the equivalent. But for men as like Spanx 856 00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:51,400 underwear or compression thing that good supposed to go up and 857 00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:54,600 over your belly to try and compress things. 858 00:48:55,100 --> 00:48:57,700 I was like, what the Because this seems and then I got 859 00:48:57,700 --> 00:49:00,700 offenders like, well, I okay, yeah, I could lose a few pounds 860 00:49:00,700 --> 00:49:06,800 and yeah, you know, like, huh. I don't know how they are. 861 00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:10,300 You know, they decided that I was in that other than okay, 862 00:49:10,300 --> 00:49:12,400 well here's a person who hasn't left his house probably like two 863 00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:15,300 or three months, they probably need help. 864 00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:18,400 You know, we've noticed that there's been a lot of doordash 865 00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:21,600 delivery, a lot of pizza delivery. 866 00:49:22,300 --> 00:49:26,300 Yeah, exactly. So I was I was offended mostly 867 00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:31,700 He amused mostly and slightly perturbed that. 868 00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:35,800 Uh you know how dare you make that recommendation but I'll 869 00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:37,800 never forget it. I was like all right well that's 870 00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:41,300 weird whatever just to get you back I'm going to order to 871 00:49:41,300 --> 00:49:44,000 Frosty's for milk from Wendy's right now. 872 00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:46,200 Exactly. Well I'm gonna start wearing 873 00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:47,600 them. I guess I got to get the maximum 874 00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:49,200 value out of it. Exactly. 875 00:49:49,500 --> 00:49:52,800 So I never did order them but even though I probably could use 876 00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:58,200 them, I thought that was Interesting as well. 877 00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:01,500 Just from a timing perspective and I wonder what in went into 878 00:50:01,500 --> 00:50:05,200 the decision. For whatever logic was used to 879 00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:10,200 run that ad location. Had to change mostly at home. 880 00:50:10,900 --> 00:50:15,100 A lot of food, deliveries pandemic, I don't know, you 881 00:50:15,107 --> 00:50:17,800 know, whatever it may be but I'll never forget that. 882 00:50:17,900 --> 00:50:20,400 I think that was just the weirdest thing. 883 00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:23,800 I've been served up so far. Was that it an Amazon, a door? 884 00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:25,300 Was that? Oh, you said that was it? 885 00:50:25,300 --> 00:50:27,300 I think. It was either Facebook or 886 00:50:27,300 --> 00:50:30,000 Instagram, I can't remember which one it was, and the same 887 00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:32,600 companies like this is really matter but, you know, I do 888 00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:36,500 remember where exactly I saw it. But usually my Facebook ads are 889 00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:40,700 around like audio equipment because that's what I'm looking 890 00:50:40,700 --> 00:50:43,300 for the podcast, right? Or backpacks. 891 00:50:43,300 --> 00:50:47,000 I have like a bag collection, I'm a collector of like, you 892 00:50:47,008 --> 00:50:48,400 know, nice backpacks, things like that. 893 00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:51,800 So usually that's what I guess pan with. 894 00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:55,100 But this one was just so far out of like the blue. 895 00:50:55,100 --> 00:50:57,500 I just didn't, I didn't get And I remember showing it to my 896 00:50:57,500 --> 00:51:00,500 white to I was like leave us and she's kind of like smiled. 897 00:51:00,700 --> 00:51:05,300 I was like okay well screw you then to it's okay you know your 898 00:51:05,300 --> 00:51:08,000 buddy look good more of those. Yeah exactly. 899 00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:11,600 Alright let's go ahead and wrap it up there. 900 00:51:12,300 --> 00:51:15,900 I really want to thank Ian. Sarah Eve, Adam and Jamie. 901 00:51:15,900 --> 00:51:18,200 For taking the you know the few minutes or however many other 902 00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:20,800 long, it took, you know, it's a to get that stuff sent over to 903 00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:22,300 us. I thought made for really 904 00:51:22,300 --> 00:51:24,100 interesting episode. I think if you're listening to 905 00:51:24,100 --> 00:51:28,000 this and you're identifiers, you know, Try to you know, fist bump 906 00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:30,200 those folks. So if they're around and let him 907 00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:33,400 know you heard us here and ask them to kind of articulate what 908 00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:36,000 they meant and see if if their position is changed at all. 909 00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:39,100 But I think that would be interesting and if you've got a 910 00:51:39,100 --> 00:51:42,100 take on it that you think is is different, send it to us as 911 00:51:42,100 --> 00:51:43,200 well. Will be happy to play it on the 912 00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:46,000 show and serve discuss it so we can go with that. 913 00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:49,100 Before we wrap up any final thoughts for this week, Jim, no 914 00:51:49,100 --> 00:51:50,600 sir. I'm not going to see everybody 915 00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:55,900 out there that I did a verse but next year and, you know, I think 916 00:51:55,900 --> 00:51:57,700 it's good. Fantastic conference. 917 00:51:57,700 --> 00:52:00,400 I'm really so depressed about not being there. 918 00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:03,600 Yeah, the energy. Level was pretty good at RSA to 919 00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:05,400 think people are ready to be back. 920 00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:08,600 I'm going to try to make it out to Gartner in August in Las 921 00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:12,800 Vegas, so maybe maybe that'll be my next one. 922 00:52:13,100 --> 00:52:17,600 After my move here, takes place over the next week or so. 923 00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:20,100 So alright. I'm going to go ahead and leave 924 00:52:20,100 --> 00:52:22,700 it there. Thank you all for listening. 925 00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:25,700 You can find us on the web at etiquettecenter.com. 926 00:52:25,700 --> 00:52:30,800 We're on ER at IDC podcast the live stream that we do at idac2 927 00:52:30,900 --> 00:52:35,400 live is still on Hiatus while I figure out my life my schedule 928 00:52:36,100 --> 00:52:39,300 but it will be back at some point and with that we'll go 929 00:52:39,300 --> 00:52:40,500 ahead and leave it for this week. 930 00:52:40,700 --> 00:52:42,600 Thanks for listening and we'll talk with you all in the next 931 00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:48,400 one. Thanks for listening to the 932 00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:51,200 identity at the center podcast. If you like what you heard, 933 00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:54,500 don't forget to subscribe and visit us on the web and identity 934 00:52:54,500 --> 00:52:55,700 at the center.com.