You're listening to the identity of the sender podcast.
This is a show that talks about identity and access management
and making sure you know who has access to what let's get
started. Welcome to the identity of the
sender podcast I'm Jeff and that's Jim.
Hey Jim hey Jeff, how are you? Oh not so bad yourself good.
But a little bit sad I'm having to go through the process of
canceling. My reservations for the identity
versus conference. Just have too much stuff going
on and I'm not going to be able to make it and I know I've been
telling everyone on the podcast recently that I was going to be
there. This podcast is going to go live
the day before and I'm very sad that I'm not going to be able to
be there in person, but I'm hoping doing Least be able to
catch the sessions virtually. We have lots of friends there.
I think I've shared, I won't be there by the time.
People are listening. This, I will be neck-deep in
boxes. Moving a house moving moving out
of my house and into another house the same week.
So kind of Bittersweet and was looking forward to it.
Especially this being the first conference that's being run by
different organization than paying kind of truly separates
it from, from, from them and makes a little more vendor
neutral method. It wasn't before, but it's been
in a while. I was at RS a few weeks ago, and
it was cool to kind of see people there, you know, be able
to kind of fist-bump folks that I hadn't seen in a very long
time. I did see Vittorio on the
street, I think, after we recorded because we recorded on
this tutorial is on the shree Bose.
You like once-over. Now it's one of those things
you're heading your you know every night there's like some
sort of activity and I don't know what he's doing is going to
get food or something like that. I was like done for the day and
I saw him from a distance. I mean Miss that hair.
We can't miss. I heard, yes.
I was like, oh, that's what are you guys like?
And we were working on something specifically for this show, so
we'll get to that in a second. So I kind of want Harry I fist
bump him and say, you know, what's going on in chat for a
second and then kind of went on our way is, but that was pretty
much like the conference was like, you know, like a 30
seconds to one minute to minute fist bump and then like, hustle
and bustle off to the next thing that was out there.
But the good news was that you were seeing Victoria on the
streets, because he couldn't get a hotel, which I know for sure.
Conferences in the past special, ersa that can sometimes be an
issue. It is so hard to get a good
hotel for our site. You have to book the day that
they announced it, or you are staying far away, you're taking
shuttles or yeah, you're just out of luck.
Hopefully, you're not crossing the Bay Bridge.
It's a, it's a try to make it but yeah, that's, that's the
approach that we talked about, you know, last time we were
talking about, this was make sure you book early and book,
often hotel rooms are going RSA, that's right.
It's all just yeah, this thing that we were talking about with
the torrio that I sort of tease the little bit.
This actually came as a result of a conversation that you and
myself and Andy hindle who was on the show a few weeks ago kind
of we're talking about. I think it was actually even
during like one of just kind of like our pre-meeting kind of
getting setup and mic check and right you know all that good
stuff and we're kind of thinking about as you know, has Has the
definition of identity and access management changed.
It was like okay well that would be kind of an interesting show
because I feel like it kind of has and there's a lot of
different terms sometimes used for this right?
Digital identity. I am I DM you know all different
color of identity words that could be out there and say oh
well maybe we can turn this into a show and my original thought
was, hey, let's do like a live panel like, you know, we have
this wide stream, I'm having a little bit of will do it mostly
because my schedule sucks. It should be stabilizing here in
a couple of weeks after I get moved.
But I thought was I think it will be interesting to get, you
know, some of the identity as we like to say, you know, on the
show in some way and kind of have a Roundtable discussion and
then actually you had the brilliant idea was I want to we
just asked people the question and have them email in there.
Are audio response, so I guess Jim you want to kind of take you
take us through the process and how we got to where we are
today, and from your perspective.
Yeah, you know, I think you do. No, they're pretty good there.
You know, I think what would happen was Andy, kept saying,
digital identity, digital identity, and I thought to
myself, whatever happened to I am.
And so I asked him that question.
What's the difference between digital identity and I am and it
kind of stumped them, right? And he's like, well this is a
longer answer. This would be a longer answer
than we have time for in, you know, this little bit of the
episode. So, We make it a follow-up
episode and then from there, we kind of, as you mentioned
evolve, the idea to this kind of Round Table and we're going to
go through the recordings that were submitted in the order they
were said to us, so no particular order.
But do you want to go through and kind of like mention each
person and played the clip and then comment?
Yeah, I will emcee this and so the oh yeah, the way it's worked
was, you know, Jim spammed everybody that we could think of
sending Male to say hey here's the question if you wanted to
record like a two to three minute, sort of answer on what
your thoughts are and the question that we posed to
everyone, was this, what's the difference between digital
identity and identity and access management really kind of
looking to see? You know, what the different
responses where we got responses from a few different people.
We have Ann Glaser, he's a senior vice president identity
product management. At Salesforce, he's a friend of
the show been on the show before Sarah such a tea.
She's the head of product. Amazon Cognito another person
who's been on the show, actually all these people have gone to
show, he's mailer Chief technologist, technology officer
at Ford Rock, we've got Adam Michael, who's a data management
officer and director for it risk identity and Adjunct professor
at Texas A&M University and then our old friend Jamie Lewis
grows, who's the vice president Solutions, engineering and
strategy at stadiums. So, now by saying that Jeff
you're not calling Jamie old, right?
Here's your beautiful friend for a long time.
She has and I think I'm, I think I am older than she is.
So she I've got her beat on that one, but here's his inches like
when she let you listen. So if you're listening to the
show and you stick around for when Jamie gets into hers let's
just say she ages herself as well.
How about that of her own you know volition whether it is
sorry JB don't mean to throw you under the bus but you start off
with it. But yeah.
And the other thing is cool here is I think really the only
answer that Jim has heard so far is Ian's.
So the other is Jim hasn't even really kind of listened to and
Jamie's is going to be a complete surprise to the first
time. So, a lot of this will be a
combination of reaction. Mostly on Jim's Park.
I have heard them all because I have added them together and,
you know, prepped sort of the Sound Stage here as we're
recording. So it'll be interesting.
So why don't we go ahead and get started?
And the question again, as we ask people was what's the
difference between digital identity and identity and access
management And this first clip is from Ian Glazer.
So at first, I thought that this question.
What's the difference between I am and digital identity was an
easy one to answer and then I realized it's absolutely not.
And it's the reason why it's not, it's not because if you ask
three identity people, what their definition is of a
specific identity term. You'll get six answers.
It's because in within the question is actually a bunch of
different issues So I think at the surface layer, the
difference is in my mind, I am. Although it used to be the way,
certainly analyst referred to the General market of digital
identity has become shorthand for Workforce, identity, and
access management. So I think in sort of more
modern parlance, I am is the work force equivalent of Siam.
Okay. And so then that's true.
We're left wanting an umbrella term that could cover both
Workforce, identity, and Siam and all the other bits that are
starting to become integral to the industry.
And so to me, digital identity has become that umbrella term
problem is that's not entirely ideal.
It certainly leaves areas out of the conversation.
So for example, if you talk to an identity practitioner Then
you say hey do you work on identity theft?
The likely say no that's not Identity or that's not the
identity I work on and if you you know, ask another
practitioner about you know, how much they do in terms of source,
documentation verification for legal identity, bound to a
digital credential depending on industry.
And they may say well I don't do that at all and so the identity
and identity documents which off Often come from the physical
world and now are starting to make their way in the digital
world that often gets left out of the conversation to.
So the reason why I'm thinking about these things is because
boundaries are important in names in this case really come
with a set of boundaries and that helps Drive Clarity in the
conversation. Well one thing that that you
know I realized was actually a couple years ago Andrew Nash at
the time. I think he was with Capital One.
Give me a really good talk. That basically said, hey, you
and the audience think you're doing identity management.
What you're probably actually doing is just user account
management and he wasn't being demeaning, he was saying like
look the totality of the things that go into.
What many of us do on a day-to-day basis is user account
manipulation assignment of title entitlements doing the identity
Plumbing but we weren't doing was the more holistic.
I have a digital representation of this legal entity and all of
the Things associated with it, let's manage those things.
Which notionally would be identity management or digital
identity management. So coming back around, I think
the answer is at the surface level.
I am is now become shorthand for Workforce identity, then all the
things associated with a classic Enterprise Workforce, identity,
infrastructure and digital identity is the umbrella term
for the industry, but I think that's maybe not as exact as it
could be. And, you know, Again given the
opportunity to talk about definitions.
Everybody's got a bunch of opinions.
Those are mine. Alright so that was Ian Glaser
at Salesforce? What are your thoughts?
Jim. I think that he got to the heart
of kind of what I think the difference is, which is that
it's a, it's kind of how your its wording around, you know,
what is the classification of the industry?
Now, he's saying identity and access management has been
Become kind of a focus on the workforce part of this whole
digital identity space, whereas I think is kind of like a
historical change this happens, like we started out with the
industry of identity and access management and yes it was
Workforce. And yes you know at the time if
you look at the solutions that were on the market, they were
identity Management Solutions, wasn't even IGA and their access
Management Solutions that they were.
How do you protect your websites?
Less about federating out. There's more about protecting
the systems that you had so the classification identity and
access management did it very well for the time and then as
what kind of start to build up in the space kind of grew and
added new scope, it kind of stretch and the term identity
and access management. I feel like became less
descriptive of what this whole Space has become.
Come, which includes customer identity management, which
includes self Sovereign, identity, and identity.
Verification of these things that no longer to determine
identity and access management fit very well.
And I think the term digital identity has been around for a
while, but people weren't really taking it seriously, until
within the last. Let's say, 34 years, where I
feel like it's, you know, people are starting to now break from
using I Am I still use? I am but that's kind of the way
I am. I still write with a pen on a
piece of paper sometimes and the term digital identity is kind of
taking over which encompasses this much larger area and I
think it's probably just more appropriate.
Yeah. One thing that he said that
struck me was this delineation between I am as being like
Workforce and Siam or customer identity access management.
I know you of I have really kind of figured out some of that
stuff as we were kind of talking over the last couple of years.
We've started to call it, like, E.
I am Enterprise. I am versus Siam or see, I am
customer. I am maybe it's not easy.
I am maybe it's w. I Am Workforce identity and
access management or maybe why I am Prince, I am right, things
like that. But I think it is interesting
that the definition clearly has changed.
I'm a little surprised, not surprised because we're going to
have more More answers here at the perspective that it seemed
to me. When I was taking is that I am
sort of fits underneath the umbrella of digital identity.
I can see a situation where people might have a definition
of digital identity as sort of like a Civic or citizen type
identity. Will be interesting if he is.
You listen here to some of the other folks that we've got, if
you know, how, how close are some of these definitions and
how different some of them are, because I think the perspectives
really are pretty. Different.
Why do we go ahead and get into Sarah's such a tea?
Next? She's with Amazon Cognito, we
asked her, the question. What's the difference between
digital identity and identity and access management?
What's the difference between I am and digital identity?
I was tempted to say there is no difference between I and digital
identity, and I suspect that's what many experts will tell you,
but that's not true. There's a very important and
over, which difference, there's a division of the US government
called the National Institute for standards and Acknowledge
our nests and their job is to measure things.
How long is a meter? Ask Nest, how heavy is a
kilogram? Ask missed.
Well in the 21st century, they started measuring not just
physical things, but digital things like security and
identity. They wrote a document called
special publication 800-53. The publication outlined a way
to measure how strong an identity transaction was and it
used in measure, called level of assurance.
How sure can I be that the person at the end of the line is
who they say they are. R, as that document went into
broad use, they found it had cracks in its armor.
It wasn't doing the job that it was intended to do because it
was too one-dimensional, and it was one dimensional and exactly,
the access that we're focusing on.
In this episode, it conflated, I am with digital identity.
It said that the strongest transactions have both strong
authentication mechanisms and strong identity proofing,
meaning that we verified the real-life identity of the person
at the end of the line. But that measured me leaves no
room. For a very important use case
stronger. The authenticated Anonymous
users. Imagine a political dissident
who wants to tell the story of what she's experiencing in her
country but she needs to keep her identity hidden that her
government won't find her. Do we need strong authentication
for that person? Absolutely.
We need to use the strongest technology we have to make sure
that her lines of communication haven't been compromised.
Do we need strong identity proofing?
Shouldn't person. No identity proofing.
That person could actually compromise her safety.
We need strong. I am without strong digital
identity. That's one missed hired a team
of identity experts, including myself to rewrite the whole
concept of identity verification.
We throughout the one-dimensional limiter and made
it three dimensional. Now, instead of one level of
assurance, there are three identity Assurance level
authenticator Assurance level and Federation Assurance level
because I am and digital identity are, and must remain
different. All right, so what do you think
about saris answer? Well, I think that that's a very
good use case, right? And I haven't hadn't thought of
that. I can see where she's coming
from. Yeah, I mean that, I mean, it's
obviously, you know, given the state of the world, right?
The the political dissidents and government distances and things
like that, that are happening, certainly makes the case for.
Okay. So, what is what is addition to
definition of digital identity and she's exported it into three
dimensions is, are those enough Dimensions?
Is there a fourth dimension space and time?
It may be, you know what? Is the the right way to look at
or maybe maybe the definition changes based on the use case
which might be a little bit tricky to.
Yeah I remember in the early days of I am some people kind of
making the argument, I'm Jim McDonald.
So why can't I just be Jim McDonald whether I'm using my
Google login or my corporate login?
I'm still the same person. I think the case is Sir.
I was making is that sometimes I don't want you to know that Jim
McDonald make this statement because if I speak out I make
disappear the next day. So there are times where
Anonymous is what I want to be. I want to separate that
authentication so my right to access that account from who I
am as a person. I think the you know the other
aspect to this could be just thinking about.
It is it could be The identity of things which again is kind of
fallen into originally fell into I am maybe wasn't the best fit,
definitely under the digital identity umbrella but you know,
I think that it's it's one of the biggest conundrums of I am
or digital identity is does the thing really have an identity?
Yeah. And it in the same way as a
person with the timing with the the news out of Google, right?
With one of the one of the folks in Google saying that they're
aii. This is his Come sentient, or at
least appears to be your, some like that.
Yeah, I mean, does does a thing have an identity.
I mean, clearly there's internet of things.
And now, I think we're stretching into the line of
digital identity of things. So does a smart thermostat,
which clearly lives in the real world, I can touch it.
It has its own digital identity on the network, or you know,
whatever it may be the platform that it's connected to.
I think I feel like if this was a video podcast, I'd be like
using that exploding brain gift right now, we're going to be
coming out of the top of your head.
Yeah, exactly. All right.
Why don't we move to the next one?
This is Eve Mahler. She's a chief technology officer
at Ford truck. We asked her.
What's the difference between digital identity and identity
and access management Identity language has been a contentious
subject for a long time thinking back to the beginnings of iiw,
the internet identity Workshop, the original effort by that
Community was to actually develop a lexicon comprehensive.
Lexicon. It was tough going then and I
think it's always tough going in this area.
How I see digital identity as a phrase is that it applies to the
users of or the interactors with identity.
Technology. And I see, I am as being about
the implementation of identity technology in whatever guys.
So, when it comes to digital identity, the kind of the user
perspective, you know, most people interact with identity in
a way that actually isn't all that Pleasant identity theft is
probably the first thing that comes to mind.
And a lot of times that interaction is actually in an
offline fashion versus an online runtime authentication.
For example, Fashion. When it comes to, I am that term
itself is, is a bucket for a lot of other different things and
sometimes they overlap. But I am, sometimes there may be
a little bit apart. So identity management, kind of
life cycle, considerations access management, really all
the runtime considerations and also governance and
administration which gets into the world of really operational
things. And there's this phrase that I
really like lately bolts, which is business, operational, legal,
technical answer, societal. So that's kind of the game that
you get into when you talk about both the above, the water user
considerations and the below, the water, implementer
considerations one, of the things that I find when I just
talked with ordinary people out there who don't do what I do
about, what you call the jobs to be done of digital identity.
Is that all of the things people expect to get from this sort of
Technology, it cross-country. Sweet things businesses want as
well. You know, I have a new Venn
diagram about this where, I think, in terms of protection,
and personalization, and payment, and people, so there
are unique needs among all of those categories and they cross
cut quite a lot of things like achieving security is actually
something that's welcomed by people.
And by businesses, it applies across all of the identity
language but I thought that was pretty interesting.
The definition is it? She has for the to, and kind of
seems to me like it was it's, you know, changes a little bit,
right? Whether your I am or digital
identity, what are you thinking? Yeah, it's interesting because
going to allow my mental definition to adapt.
As I hear these recordings because there's really, you
know, as I was listening to Ian that like you said, I was the
only one who listened to you beforehand, kind of saw identity
and access management as a subset of digital identity as
those listening to Yves like kind of thinking there, too.
Separate Concepts rate, identity and access management
potentially is something I do with all these processes to, you
know, manage who gets access to what which I think is the
traditional definition right? But then, when I think about
digital identity, I'm actually thinking about some
instantiation of say, apple has this concept of who Jim McDonald
is and I can, you know, have apples vision of Jim McDonald
but it really Kind of has a border around it and then Google
has a different definition of the digital identity for Jim
McDonald. And then as Jim McDonald, I've
got all these digital identities running around, maybe they all
tie back to me. But essentially, they're like a
data set that these companies have about me.
They're like a digital fingerprint of me.
Maybe they can grant me access to things within their border.
Maybe they can grab me to access to things beyond my Border.
So you know, maybe OCTA has that digital Identity or that
thumbprint about Jim McDonald and it can pass me on to concur
for example but yeah, so so maybe rather than I am being a
part of digital identity representing, you know,
Workforce or even some set of Technologies.
It's it is that Workforce set of Technologies, how I go and
manage. But then the digital Identity is
a separate concept which is these companies have this
fingerprint this data set about me and that is with digital
identity is yeah, I think it's interesting if we take that
concept of okay, when it's concept digital identity and
separate out from what is identity and access management,
it's typically a collection of services that are being done.
Its identity management, its access management privileged
access government student Administration, make things that
you've mentioned, even even the the The service of running.
And I am program is a service within that, and now you're
starting to help. People are starting to catch on
as like, this is hard to Define because people have different
interpretations of, you know, digital identity.
What does it mean? Does it mean your your
fingerprint, you know, so to speak online or other digital
transactions or is it meant to be the overarching?
Well, we know it's more than I am and we need to come out
somehow say that. Well, we both do boats you know,
I am from an Enterprise perspective but you also do it
from a customer side and you know, we do other things other
than technology, maybe it's program.
You know, does that fit under the bucket or that definition?
I think it's interesting. You know, as we're kind of going
along. I was certainly I certainly had
sort of a in my head definition and as I listened to these over
and over and over again, stir that through the editing process
and prepping the show it. Changed a little bit and now
I'll be honest, I'm not sure what to think it's so let's keep
going and let's now hear from Adam Michael over at Texas A&M
and what his answer was to the question of what's the
difference between digital identity and identity and access
management? When I think about the
difference between I am and digital identity, I really think
that they are overlapping sets. So I see digital T as being a
key component of an overall, I am strategy so digital identity
to me and I'm coming from the perspective of a higher
education environment, but so much of what we do now, learning
and research is moving to an online environment and the
ability to authenticate someone and know that, okay, if Joe
student is taking a test, we actually have the correct person
on the other end of the online resources.
Taking that test, right? It's important that we have an
easy way for our students and our faculty to assert their
identity, in a digital space. Now that's just step one.
Write authentication, and saying that this person actually is who
they say they are. But when we talk about, I am it
goes beyond that and we have this concept of giving them
access to resources. So once we've verified their
identity in a digital space, we To be able to grant them access
to the right things in the right way and the right time, right?
So that's the access component in I am.
And so I really see digital identity and I am as being very
closely related and maybe even overlapping sets I am being the
superset of something. A concept that digital identity
fits inside, all right? So remember when I was saying
maybe digital identities overall Adam, when a different way, He
sees it the opposite where digital identity is a component
of identity and access management, which I can kind of
get behind as well. What are you thinking?
Yeah, because show you that. There's there's no wrong answer
here. It's it definitely makes you
think because I think it kind of even brings in that concept of
the thumbprint. Now I assert or I authenticate
myself, is I am Jim McDonald. Now, you can take that
thumbprint of data and you know, go go ahead and Associate it
with me through whatever interface I'm using.
And when he thinks about identity and access management,
it's all those processes that are included.
So, I mean, that's definitely a valuable perspective.
It. I think what's so interesting is
like that. You can have two people who live
in this world independently come up with, totally Opposite, you
know, configurations of which one encompasses the other.
That that's why I think it is. Such a good question.
Well, here's another wrinkle throught.
So, the people that we asked, Adam is the only one that's
actually in the business side of is practitioner is not, yeah,
he's a practitioner, right? He's not a vendor, he's not an
identity person. For example, right, he has more
on the business delivery of identity Services, rather than a
product. T', person which Ian, Sarah Eve
and Jamie coming up, are all more on the identity product
side of things. So it is interesting to hear
sort of like the business definition or do business
answer. You know, from someone like that
to say, okay. Well here's here's how the
business of Senate, which I thought was interesting.
Yeah, I think one of the things that I also have was thinking
about is, you know, especially like Ian's case and Yves case,
because I think the first time, Met the two of them is close to
20 years ago at identity and access management conferences
and they were part of this identity arathi, right?
And there's many other folks who were kind of there in that is
that I am was this, you know, especially conferences, were
people really talking about was what is an identity like these
really philosophical conversation?
And I've been in it at that point for probably about, you
know, eight years. I was like, I've never run into
Into a new look with in it wears like all about are so much of it
was about the philosophy of what we're doing here and so that's
really what the roots of I am. And so I kind of heard that a
lot in their answer as well as kind of that coming from those
roots. Deep thinkers deeper thinkers.
Yeah, for sure. All right.
Why don't we go to Jamie Lewis Grace and her answer to the
question of, what's the difference between a digital
identity and a dating access management?
And she's from sabian's, I was asked what's the difference
between I am and digital identity?
Well, this is a lot to unpack in a very short amount of time,
because I've been at this for a very long time.
And I've seen the industry evolve, I am Identity and access
management. So early on I am was often
synonymous with authentication it then pushed into automation
of processes password management efficiency gains reduction of
cost. Ultimately I saw I am become the
umbrella of Technologies and policies to manage access and
mitigate risk. Inclusive of not only
authentication single sign-on and multi-factor but then
Started to extend into privileged access management
identity governance and administration risk profiling.
Authorization are back a back P vac and the focus was really
always all in the workforce at least from from my experience
and so that brings me to digital identity.
So digital identity has extended Beyond just the carbon-based
identities of our Workforce, our vendors, our suppliers, our
Contractors. It's encompassing of b2c, B2B G
to C, but also was very important to understand is it's
taken on the Silicon identities to those not, well managed
service accounts and included, certificates Keys devices,
workloads containers. It goes on and on think about
it, as you know all of the machine related identities that
are out there and what's happening is with digital This
formation initiatives there is a exponential growth of connected
devices and these machine identities use to manage process
Automation. And it's really creating that
larger surface and and threat attack Vector, really opening
organizations up to the Cyber vulnerabilities.
So you know, when we also think about digital identity often we
also think about the specific personal data So whether it be
personas on social media, whether it be someone's online
bank account access to Amazon Netflix, that's all digital
identity as well. And then, there's that digital
blueprint that really is surrounding us.
We rely on it. It might be the nest thermostat
in your home. Your home Wireless, the security
systems that surround you. The list goes on and on personal
identity in the digital format is as Limitless.
Our data's continually analyzed and it's, it's used, it's used
against us. It positions, adds to us, it
sells to us. It's funny.
Just the other day. My 84 year old father-in-law,
was essentially taken advantage of.
Because he did an innocent search at the library, looking
into knee pain. And before, you know, it he's
purchasing something online that, you know, has little
information about it, but it was served up to him through an ad.
So there's just so much Much more I could go on and on about
and discuss. But I want to end by saying
that, you know, right now, for personal digital identity and
the information that's used. There's very little control.
So as we go forward in a world of evolution, you know, I think
that the future is really going to demand better protection and
controls of the personal information and with that, you
know, in the future maybe my father-in-law won't blindly
purchase some Misguided product for his knee pain.
So I hope I have answered your question today.
All right, well, first of all, a couple notes, a hopefully her
father-in-law's knee is feeling better.
Second of all. I'm going to give her bonus
points for using the term. Carbon-based life-forms is part
of her answer and then third circling back to the very
beginning when age was brought into it.
She's the one who said she's been doing this for a long time,
not me, there you go. I think it's, I think it's
interesting that she brought up the Privacy angle and the really
kind of private think it's that kind of go hand in hand with
those some of those. And it's the first time that
that has been mentioned in this conversation was ownership
really of the attributes of the digital identity and how they're
used. So, yes.
And so here's what I was thinking as I was listening to
Jamie, is that there's two ways? This question could be
interpreted, one is, what do people mean when they say,
digital identity versus identity and access management?
So in other words, when people use the Those terms, what are
they trying to differentiate? Or when you hear those terms?
What do you think of? And then there's the question of
what should those terms mean, right?
And I think if you answer that it might be a different answer
than the previous question. So as I've been listening to
these responses, I'm getting more and more on the side that
digital identity is really this thumbprint Of who of data about
you. Now, one thing that I've run
into overtime in the identity and access management consulting
or digital identity Consulting, whatever you want to call it
right is Winters. That data, stop being, I am
data, right? So when what data is I and
actually one thing I would differ differentiate from what
Jamie said, but I first got into identity and access management
it seemed like it was all about Directory synchronization and
ldap data, and we got all the cell data.
How do we manage the ldap data? And then the applications are
going to bind to the ldap and authenticate or of an access
management system that binds the of that but is all about
directories. But you know what used to be the
boundary of what was identity data or digital at your digital
Identity. Or I am data was what was in the
directory? I think that what we found with
virtual directories is now you Can expand that out and they
take it to another sub match. If we had Dan Creed from meta,
answer this question, what is the digital identity?
What it, what is your digital identity thumbprint well, now
it's, you know, all these different data points that you
can, you couldn't even imagine where are you?
And you think, well, maybe that's marketing data to me,
that's what like the digital identity data is, where's the
identity and access management is what is the data that?
What you should have access to great.
So one, what is my credential data?
What is the data that is needed? For me to authenticate myself?
And then what defines? What's going to give me access?
It could be attributes for attribute based authentication,
or it could be roles and things like that.
But that is my, I am data but it seems to me the digital identity
goes beyond like what are my shopping preferences?
What is my Location, you know, especially like I was at
Starbucks the other day or every time I go to Starbucks down if
you get in the drive thru drive by it, it's like, you know, on
your iPhone. It pops up with your Starbucks
app. Like, you know, you can just
push this button and go in and and have a latte if you'd like.
So all of that data analysis is kind of extending its marketing
data but it's kind of becomes your digital identity.
I don't know. It's so to me that that could be
What actually is a digital identity versus I am not
necessarily how the terms you because I believe the terms are
being used as a replacement. I think that when you look at
consulting firms they're just replacing their identity and
access management practice with digital identity.
You're saying yeah we have a digital identity practice.
You know five years ago would have been called their identity
and access management practice. So to me dish identity is
replacing identity access management from lexicon
standpoint, but I think that they should have a deeper
meaning. That's interesting.
I think I think you're totally right, especially that last
example, there are like Consulting, what do you call?
What is it? You say you would do around
here? Well, what are you?
I'm, I am consult a. Yeah, yeah.
Or I'm a digital identity consultant or two people, you
know, how do I, how do I name the practice that I'm, you know,
starting and running up is I am. Is it digital identity?
Is it secure digital identity? Is it just identity?
I don't know. I think it's interesting.
I think having listened to, you know, five really smart people
and then us listen to, you know, pontificate on this is, I think
the definition morphs and changes on a couple things.
It's the first is, who were you talking to?
And the second is, what is the point that you're trying to get
across is if I'm talking to someone who doesn't know
anything? NG about identity and access
management or digital identity, I'm going to try and keep it
simple and I might use vaguer language that you know, is maybe
easier to understand or try to articulate versus hey Jim.
Let's go talk about why we should be using you know, adfs
for authentication and then you know that's what we should.
That's a bad example. Sorry.
She recently using modern standards for authentication but
you know having a more technical conversation and talking through
identity and access management versus just this Umbrella of
identity, which has other connotations to it to write,
especially in the physical world with gender and things like
that. So now we're like, okay, well,
where is the line for identity? I don't know what to tell you.
I think I went into it. Originally with the idea of
like, okay, well, I see, I am as a subset of this broader thing
called digital identity visual identity is the concept of
power. We managing identity and access
management in a digital way, whatever that looks like having
listened to Adam like, okay, I can certainly see that where its
flipped on its head in my world and like, okay, well digital
identity sort of a component of identity and access management.
If I say, I think about it from a service standpoint.
What is it that we're actually offering and then you brought me
back when you set up your on the Consulting side, how would you
explain what you do? Okay.
Well I run an identity practice. And I think that's how I've been
introducing really kind of myself.
Is you know, talk to me about identity and that's kind of
where I'd left it so far but I'm sure it will continue to evolve
over time. I think, I think what's
fascinating is, you know, we got five expert opinions and then
ours and between the seven of us.
None of us really had the same answer which I think is why this
made it made it made the question.
So, interesting, when we originally talking with Andy
about it, a few weeks ago and I know my Three evolved throughout
the show. And I bet you if Ian was
listening to, there's other definitions.
There'd be things that folks had said that would, you know, as
the conversation evolved? He probably would evolve his
definition as well, because those perspectives, but I think
the end of the day, we did not solve the question, right?
We got, we just showed that this is Something that's in flux
something that's happening. I think, is a fantastic format
for raising some questions like this in the future.
And I mean, I'd love to hear from our listeners.
If this format resonates with you, we can go ahead and do some
more episodes like this. Yeah, I mean, I think it's easy
enough to, you know, record on your phone, just a simple audio
clip. If you've got a definition of,
or at least an answer to the question of what is the Between
digital identity and identity access management.
Is there one, feel free to record something and tag us on.
Hit us up on LinkedIn. You can attach the file there or
we can figure out how to get over to us but I think it's
something continue on. I think with identity versus
hitting this week you know a lot of these folks that we heard
from today - us will be there, you know, ask them, you know,
what do they need about some of the stuff because I think it'll
be interesting to hear. I think it's only right that if
I think if we had all these folks in the room I'd be willing
to bet some parts of each definition would have evolved
just within the last 45 minutes as we've been talking here.
Absolutely. Yeah, so like any good podcast
we didn't we didn't offer any answers, we just talked about it
for 45 minutes, I think, you know people can kind of figure
out and even if we don't have the answer, maybe what we did is
we sparked an idea, right? In someone's listening out there
saying, oh, I never really thought about it from that
angle. I don't think there's a right
answer or wrong answer. I think your is just here's how
I represent. You know, this specific question
and I think I think that's okay. I just got to be Of about who
you're talking to and what's the context of the conversation,
because sometimes things can get lost in translation, but I don't
know if you're necessarily needs to be a right answer, right now.
Does it correct? So I think your robes out and I
think that was kind of what we expected out of this.
And we got what we hope for, we got what we asked for and but
like I said, I think this is a great format so we come up with
some other questions, you know. I think that we could pursue
this Format again. Yeah, definitely.
There's a lot of fun to kind of put this together.
So, all right. So why do we go ahead and start
to wrap things up? I was thinking about, you know,
what's our end on a lighter note for this episode?
And I want to jump on what Jamie was talking about with her
father-in-law and knee pain and some sort of, I don't know
order, purchase whatever that you may or may not be helpful.
Hopefully, it was, but you never know.
So, here's my question to you, Jim.
What is the worst or strangest online?
Add, you will admit to that. You have been served based on,
you know, browser, cookies or session history, or whatever.
It may be. Well I'm not going to even go
close to the that I would admit to kind of thing because I think
I gave you that escape hatch just in case.
Yeah, right. So I mean, I wouldn't call
myself a conspiracy theorist, but this one of the strangest
things that happened to me, was, I grew up in Philadelphia, my
brother, obviously grew up there.
As well and I was he still lives there and I was visiting him and
he lives in an older house which that the townhouse style
buildings there they call them row homes.
It was a row home and there's probably 75 100 years old and it
go into his basement and he's got this big plastic sink next
to his washer and dryer. At least always call them
utility sinks. Yeah, that was a beauty utility
square, right? Yeah.
It's like a dip Square. Deep bass.
Yep. And I said I haven't seen one of
those in years. Mike yet.
You know this utility sink and follow.
We had a whole conversation about it and I really hadn't
seen one in years. A couple days later and
advertisement showed up on my laptop in Amazon, like it Amazon
ad for utility sink. And so, the conspiracy theorist
in me, says, somehow, my phone was listening heard utility sink
since some kind of sold, some kind of message to Amazon or
whatever. And they served me up in that.
Did that happen? Probably not.
Maybe just triangulated that I was in this area because I do
think that, you know, location is something that can be served
up, potentially sold to a vendor.
And that maybe there were a lot of utility sink purchases within
that area because I would bet you every row home and that
whole neighborhood have these utility sink.
So you know, that's probably what happened.
But yeah, it got me thinking like okay it's my phone spying
on me. Yeah we've heard I think I've
heard that before too. Like pit level is my phone's by
me. Could it be your brother or
someone you know was searching for utility sinks for something
replacement repair whatever. / and because at no, you know, the
powers that be know that that's her, brother's.
I got a little baby, you might be interested in this as well,
right, or whatever way it looks like mine is weird and strange
slightly offensive, and definitely creepy.
This, I'll never forget this because this was right around
the pandemic. Kind of beginning I want to say
we're about six months into it. It feels like it was ages ago
but I guess that would have been what 20, 20 gruffly.
So I want to say it was probably like around June, maybe July
were a couple months in a lockdown, people, worried do any
things and for whatever reason I was scrolling through I remember
was Facebook or Instagram is one of those two and you know you
get as all time for just weird stuff and stuff that they think
it might be interested surf. Of course, you know watching
your browser history and so forth and I don't know why this
came up, but it was a it was a ad for I don't know.
The right terminology is but it's like you know, it's Banks.
Our where it's like tights for generally for people to like
look like they're Slimmer. Oh, Come usually you'll see
like, you know, I'm sure it's for both sexes, but the ones
that I know of are Spanx are like for women where, you know,
they put it on, it kind of Slim's the figure and so forth.
And this was the equivalent. But for men as like Spanx
underwear or compression thing that good supposed to go up and
over your belly to try and compress things.
I was like, what the Because this seems and then I got
offenders like, well, I okay, yeah, I could lose a few pounds
and yeah, you know, like, huh. I don't know how they are.
You know, they decided that I was in that other than okay,
well here's a person who hasn't left his house probably like two
or three months, they probably need help.
You know, we've noticed that there's been a lot of doordash
delivery, a lot of pizza delivery.
Yeah, exactly. So I was I was offended mostly
He amused mostly and slightly perturbed that.
Uh you know how dare you make that recommendation but I'll
never forget it. I was like all right well that's
weird whatever just to get you back I'm going to order to
Frosty's for milk from Wendy's right now.
Exactly. Well I'm gonna start wearing
them. I guess I got to get the maximum
value out of it. Exactly.
So I never did order them but even though I probably could use
them, I thought that was Interesting as well.
Just from a timing perspective and I wonder what in went into
the decision. For whatever logic was used to
run that ad location. Had to change mostly at home.
A lot of food, deliveries pandemic, I don't know, you
know, whatever it may be but I'll never forget that.
I think that was just the weirdest thing.
I've been served up so far. Was that it an Amazon, a door?
Was that? Oh, you said that was it?
I think. It was either Facebook or
Instagram, I can't remember which one it was, and the same
companies like this is really matter but, you know, I do
remember where exactly I saw it. But usually my Facebook ads are
around like audio equipment because that's what I'm looking
for the podcast, right? Or backpacks.
I have like a bag collection, I'm a collector of like, you
know, nice backpacks, things like that.
So usually that's what I guess pan with.
But this one was just so far out of like the blue.
I just didn't, I didn't get And I remember showing it to my
white to I was like leave us and she's kind of like smiled.
I was like okay well screw you then to it's okay you know your
buddy look good more of those. Yeah exactly.
Alright let's go ahead and wrap it up there.
I really want to thank Ian. Sarah Eve, Adam and Jamie.
For taking the you know the few minutes or however many other
long, it took, you know, it's a to get that stuff sent over to
us. I thought made for really
interesting episode. I think if you're listening to
this and you're identifiers, you know, Try to you know, fist bump
those folks. So if they're around and let him
know you heard us here and ask them to kind of articulate what
they meant and see if if their position is changed at all.
But I think that would be interesting and if you've got a
take on it that you think is is different, send it to us as
well. Will be happy to play it on the
show and serve discuss it so we can go with that.
Before we wrap up any final thoughts for this week, Jim, no
sir. I'm not going to see everybody
out there that I did a verse but next year and, you know, I think
it's good. Fantastic conference.
I'm really so depressed about not being there.
Yeah, the energy. Level was pretty good at RSA to
think people are ready to be back.
I'm going to try to make it out to Gartner in August in Las
Vegas, so maybe maybe that'll be my next one.
After my move here, takes place over the next week or so.
So alright. I'm going to go ahead and leave
it there. Thank you all for listening.
You can find us on the web at etiquettecenter.com.
We're on ER at IDC podcast the live stream that we do at idac2
live is still on Hiatus while I figure out my life my schedule
but it will be back at some point and with that we'll go
ahead and leave it for this week.
Thanks for listening and we'll talk with you all in the next
one. Thanks for listening to the
identity at the center podcast. If you like what you heard,
don't forget to subscribe and visit us on the web and identity
at the center.com.