1 00:00:09,700 --> 00:00:12,400 You're listening to the identity at the center podcast. 2 00:00:12,700 --> 00:00:14,900 This is the show that talks about identity and access 3 00:00:14,900 --> 00:00:18,000 management and making sure you know who has access to what 4 00:00:18,100 --> 00:00:26,200 let's get started. Welcome to the identity of the 5 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:28,100 center podcast, I'm Jeff. And that's Jim. 6 00:00:28,100 --> 00:00:30,200 Hm. Hey Jeff, how are you? 7 00:00:30,300 --> 00:00:32,600 Not so bad yourself? Good, go to move my new 8 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:34,400 recording studio. What do you think? 9 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,000 Well, it's definitely a different backdrop for sure. 10 00:00:37,100 --> 00:00:41,000 I see a nun, long picture in the corner and a plain background, 11 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:43,000 which is very much like mine. I have not figured out what to 12 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:45,900 do with the wall behind me yet, as I'm moving stuff around in my 13 00:00:45,900 --> 00:00:48,400 office, but I like the natural lighting. 14 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:52,600 Well, I'm actually liking this. You know, what is around 4:30 15 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:57,600 here. 4:30 p.m. And the amount of lighting is 16 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:01,100 just enough so you can see me but it doesn't highlight every 17 00:01:01,100 --> 00:01:04,200 flaw in my face, every wrinkle and every line. 18 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:08,700 So I'm actually pretty good with 4:00 when I set this up is about 19 00:01:08,700 --> 00:01:13,000 2:00 and I have a sudden or exposure on my again you know, 20 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:17,000 just to level set for everybody were in the u.s. in the northern 21 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:19,500 hemisphere obviously, so southernxposure. 22 00:01:19,500 --> 00:01:23,700 I get the sun beating in through my window and around 2:00, this 23 00:01:23,700 --> 00:01:27,200 afternoon was like Like it didn't the vibe didn't match 24 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:29,700 with my normal vampire mode. You know. 25 00:01:29,700 --> 00:01:32,800 Normally I like to work in the dark and like somebody opens a 26 00:01:32,808 --> 00:01:36,600 window. It's like the light you would 27 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:40,300 love the Samsung Beauty filter. On the Android phones that they 28 00:01:40,300 --> 00:01:43,500 have that like does this just over-the-top aggressive 29 00:01:43,500 --> 00:01:47,800 smoothening of facial like stones and features and things 30 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:50,300 like that. That's definitely way to go. 31 00:01:50,300 --> 00:01:53,600 But that's also why we do an audio podcast because as we have 32 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:56,500 always said, we've got face. This radio and voices for a 33 00:01:56,500 --> 00:01:59,200 silent movie. So that's just how we roll here. 34 00:02:00,300 --> 00:02:02,700 Yeah, absolutely. And if we ever go video, it's 35 00:02:02,700 --> 00:02:05,200 like, it's going to be the Snapchat version kind of like 36 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:08,800 you're venting about their. Well, people going to see us at 37 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:10,900 the, at the authenticate conference. 38 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:13,600 So we recorded as a couple weeks early cuz I'll be out, you know, 39 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:16,900 doing that. So, hopefully that'll go well 40 00:02:16,900 --> 00:02:19,000 for us, but it'll be interesting. 41 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:22,400 Just getting out in the world again and meeting The Identical. 42 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:25,300 We can always tell people it's like a this, the covid-19. 15, 43 00:02:25,300 --> 00:02:28,700 you know, I mean, we were endorsed the last 18 months, 44 00:02:28,700 --> 00:02:31,700 eating food, and not exercising. And that number is adjustable, 45 00:02:31,700 --> 00:02:32,800 right? So if I say oh, this is like the 46 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:35,800 covid, 30 or covid, 40, right? I think people would get that. 47 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:40,700 I think I think the the joke plays, all right what are we? 48 00:02:40,700 --> 00:02:42,800 What are you talk? I did it because I think that's 49 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:46,700 enough inane banter for today. We're going to get it to a 50 00:02:46,700 --> 00:02:49,700 pretty interesting conversation. One that I think is going to 51 00:02:49,700 --> 00:02:53,400 maybe have questions that we don't all have answers for but I 52 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:56,100 think it's a good time. To bring these up because of the 53 00:02:56,100 --> 00:02:58,400 prevalence and that's really around identity in the public 54 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:00,000 sector. So things like identity, 55 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:03,600 orchestration, identity proofing, those sorts of things 56 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:06,400 and really to kind of help explain some of the challenges 57 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:09,300 and opportunities we have around that we're welcoming back to the 58 00:03:09,300 --> 00:03:11,100 show. Mike Vesey is the CEO and 59 00:03:11,100 --> 00:03:13,400 president a tidy ramp. Welcome back to the show. 60 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:17,300 Mike hey thanks glad to be back. Yeah thanks for taking the time. 61 00:03:17,300 --> 00:03:21,700 So you were with us all the way back in November of 2019, one of 62 00:03:21,700 --> 00:03:25,200 our very first guests episode number One. 63 00:03:25,500 --> 00:03:30,000 And now we're in the 100 and teens I want to say like 118 64 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:35,000 somewhere in that area. So it's been a while what's new 65 00:03:35,100 --> 00:03:37,500 with ID ramp because the last time we talked was around kind 66 00:03:37,500 --> 00:03:39,900 of Bashan identity and we just had a pretty good conversation 67 00:03:39,900 --> 00:03:42,400 and you know, trying to see you know, what are the use cases 68 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:45,200 around it. So so what's new at ID RAM and 69 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:47,600 maybe you can also take this opportunity kind of refresh us. 70 00:03:47,900 --> 00:03:50,400 You know, what is it that I d-- ramp looks to solve? 71 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:53,100 Sure. Yeah, happy to it. 72 00:03:53,108 --> 00:03:56,300 A lot has changed. And yet a lot is the same, so 73 00:03:56,300 --> 00:04:01,900 happy to be back and talk about, you know, where we're at today 74 00:04:01,900 --> 00:04:04,300 versus a couple years ago. And some of the things that 75 00:04:04,300 --> 00:04:07,600 we're seeing especially in public sector because, man, that 76 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:10,100 is that. That's a, that's a an area right 77 00:04:10,100 --> 00:04:14,300 now that is moving at light speed, which is not typical for 78 00:04:14,300 --> 00:04:16,800 public sector, right? Normally those things are very 79 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:20,700 slow and deliberate and we're seeing a lot of transformation. 80 00:04:20,899 --> 00:04:23,900 All because of driven by necessity, you know, the world 81 00:04:23,900 --> 00:04:28,200 changed about 18 months ago. So I d-- ramp we're you know, 82 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:31,900 still primarily focused on on really the identity 83 00:04:32,500 --> 00:04:36,200 orchestration Journey. So we're helping organizations 84 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:40,700 Enterprise organizations as well as public sector kind of get 85 00:04:40,700 --> 00:04:44,400 their arms around multiple identity sources as it pertains 86 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:47,200 to Service delivery. And those services are really 87 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:49,500 all over the board. They can be common, you know, 88 00:04:49,500 --> 00:04:52,100 services like we all use. Everyday zoom and slack and 89 00:04:52,100 --> 00:04:55,500 things like that or they can be, you know, highly customized 90 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:59,700 Public Service systems developed for the public sector. 91 00:04:59,700 --> 00:05:02,000 Which is why I think this conversation is so applicable. 92 00:05:02,700 --> 00:05:05,500 Always been focused their you know, very Dynamic platform 93 00:05:05,500 --> 00:05:07,900 allowing you to bring in different identity providers and 94 00:05:08,100 --> 00:05:11,700 and truly orchestrate that process, from what type of an 95 00:05:11,700 --> 00:05:15,000 identity you bring in, will type of factors, want to deploy and 96 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:21,200 ultimately launching them out into into the service that Or of 97 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:24,100 their choosing and what's really changed in the last couple of 98 00:05:24,100 --> 00:05:27,200 years is that the conversation we had, you know, very early on 99 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:30,700 about blockchain identity and really, the ability for us to 100 00:05:30,700 --> 00:05:33,700 generate verifiable credentials. Based on those identity 101 00:05:33,700 --> 00:05:39,100 attributes and allow individuals to control those and bring those 102 00:05:39,100 --> 00:05:42,700 into the verification process. That's really we're seeing some 103 00:05:42,700 --> 00:05:47,700 exciting growth there. And and really it leads into the 104 00:05:47,700 --> 00:05:49,600 conversation, we're going to have today which is how do we 105 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:53,900 better identify Why, and how do we better use personal 106 00:05:53,900 --> 00:05:57,800 identities as they flow through these very disparate systems. 107 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:01,900 So, so we've continued building out our products. 108 00:06:01,900 --> 00:06:06,500 We to do things like, you know, integration of multiple factors 109 00:06:06,500 --> 00:06:11,100 into our mobile digital wallet, including, you know, Biometrics 110 00:06:11,100 --> 00:06:12,700 and things like that. That, of course we're seeing a 111 00:06:12,700 --> 00:06:16,700 lot of Aventuras tin and and really just tried to to 112 00:06:16,700 --> 00:06:19,200 complete, make a complete ecosystem. 113 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:24,000 That that an Your Enterprise can really use to help them from 114 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,400 where they are now and help them move into a more decent 115 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:31,000 decentralized future. It might give really on the 116 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:35,700 front line of a lot of these headline-grabbing type 117 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:38,700 initiatives, like mobile, driver's license. 118 00:06:38,700 --> 00:06:41,200 And to remind everybody, this is something that Jeff. 119 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:44,100 And I talked a few weeks ago about mobile driver's license. 120 00:06:44,500 --> 00:06:47,900 Starting out in the state of Georgia, which is my home state 121 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:51,000 vaccine. It's right. 122 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:54,600 That's on the tip of everyone's tongue, Jeff talked a little bit 123 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:58,900 about the conference that we're speaking at next week and get to 124 00:06:58,907 --> 00:07:01,700 do some preparation. I would liken that to a vaccine 125 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:07,600 vaccine passport, if he Wills digitization of That vaccine 126 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:11,400 card that we had at least for me, it was stuffed in my wallet 127 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:15,100 and it's a much better way about going about it. 128 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:19,900 But, you know, digital diplomas of course digital citizen 129 00:07:19,900 --> 00:07:23,300 identity. And what I think is like super 130 00:07:23,300 --> 00:07:28,600 interesting is e-voting or I voting like internet voting 131 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:32,800 which, you know, at least globally is as got a couple of 132 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:37,200 seed use cases that maybe you can speak to but I guess I'm 133 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:39,200 wondering with you being on the Frontline. 134 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:42,800 What are you hearing from your public sector contacts and 135 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:47,000 customers about adopting? These kind of transformative 136 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:51,300 initiatives? Yeah Roy, great question and You 137 00:07:51,300 --> 00:07:53,900 know, as I mentioned in the intro, it's incredibly timely 138 00:07:53,900 --> 00:07:59,100 because things are changing so fast and that's just not typical 139 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:01,400 e-voting was something, you know, obviously we've talked 140 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:06,100 about it for years and, and it's always been, it's always been 141 00:08:06,100 --> 00:08:07,900 taken with. Yeah, you know, at some point at 142 00:08:07,900 --> 00:08:11,500 some day and now we have the change happening. 143 00:08:11,500 --> 00:08:15,000 We have the transformation happening as public sector 144 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:20,100 entities, gear up to work and interact virtually with there. 145 00:08:20,900 --> 00:08:23,900 With their customers, right? Us as Citizens and residents 146 00:08:24,300 --> 00:08:27,500 were now laying the foundation and building the framework that 147 00:08:27,500 --> 00:08:31,200 we can build really cool and creative Solutions like e-voting 148 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:34,600 on top of because we're going to have to have the identification 149 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:37,900 layer figured out. And I'm not saying that we've 150 00:08:37,900 --> 00:08:40,600 got that figured out today and everything is downhill from 151 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:42,700 here. A lot of moving parts and Adam, 152 00:08:42,700 --> 00:08:47,000 we're continuing to evolve and move the needle, but it's 153 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:49,800 happening. There's absolutely no choice for 154 00:08:50,100 --> 00:08:56,300 our Government to go back to a to a in-person world, right? 155 00:08:56,300 --> 00:08:58,200 There's just no choice to do that anymore. 156 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:02,900 We have to transform those processes and provide some, some 157 00:09:02,900 --> 00:09:05,900 virtual interaction points. And that's going to allow us to 158 00:09:05,900 --> 00:09:09,300 really lay the found work, the foundation that we can build a 159 00:09:09,300 --> 00:09:14,000 lot of other creative and, and forward-moving processes around. 160 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:16,100 You mentioned, Health, passports there. 161 00:09:16,100 --> 00:09:17,800 I mean, they're everywhere, right? 162 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:21,200 We hate the word, passports, nobody likes to use health, But 163 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:25,400 the reality is, there are things happening that you know u.s. is 164 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:28,300 talking about opening borders again, Canada is opening the 165 00:09:28,300 --> 00:09:31,400 borders again and all of those things whether we like it or 166 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:35,800 not, have a dependency of some kind of health, check and, and 167 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:39,700 status. And and so those processes are 168 00:09:39,700 --> 00:09:44,800 being put in place now. And our hope is that more often 169 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:49,300 than not, they're in some type of an interoperable format, that 170 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:54,800 that can be used. And in and in a more broad 171 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:56,900 context than just, this is my solution. 172 00:09:56,900 --> 00:09:59,800 And that's your solution. So Rodham, interesting things 173 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:03,300 we're hearing, you know, two years ago when we did or 174 00:10:03,300 --> 00:10:05,400 whatever how long will it go, it's but we did the podcast. 175 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:09,500 We view to ask me, our primary customer composition, it was all 176 00:10:09,500 --> 00:10:13,300 larger Enterprise organizations and that is dramatically shifted 177 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:16,600 in the last 24 months. We're now we now have a ton of 178 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:19,100 interest from government entities, public sector 179 00:10:19,100 --> 00:10:23,700 organizations want Do really cool Solutions and I say cool 180 00:10:23,700 --> 00:10:25,900 but to them it's like just staying alive, right? 181 00:10:25,900 --> 00:10:27,700 They have to deliver their services and they have to do to 182 00:10:27,700 --> 00:10:30,600 virtually I think it's cool because we're finally pulling 183 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:34,800 the consumer into that conversation and and of course 184 00:10:34,900 --> 00:10:37,500 you know, digital diplomas education. 185 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:39,500 We're working on a couple projects there that are 186 00:10:39,500 --> 00:10:43,800 incredibly exciting to that. We've actually got a state 187 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:47,000 that's going to be issuing, digital diplomas, for all of 188 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:49,800 their graduating seniors. Next year, in an open format, 189 00:10:49,900 --> 00:10:52,300 how cool is that? At, you know, we can use that. 190 00:10:52,900 --> 00:10:58,000 We can use that credential for higher education for Workforce, 191 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,200 consumption all over the place, and those types of things are 192 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:03,200 happening. And it's just a really, really 193 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:07,000 exciting time to be an identity. And boy, not many people have 194 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:10,200 said that, well, it's certainly challenging for sure. 195 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,200 I mean, we're talking about scale and scope, right? 196 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:16,100 Of a lot of different issues that are out there and you kind 197 00:11:16,100 --> 00:11:20,200 of talked about this already as the velocity with which, you 198 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:23,300 know, Except there tends to move is not that quick generally 199 00:11:23,300 --> 00:11:26,500 speaking might have been forced into the light here, right? 200 00:11:26,500 --> 00:11:28,000 With pandemic and things like that. 201 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:31,100 But it's also expensive to get a lot of this kind of framework of 202 00:11:31,500 --> 00:11:35,000 of tools and Technologies and processes and all that stuff, 203 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:39,100 kind of put in place. I got imagine that that cost in 204 00:11:39,100 --> 00:11:43,100 the complexity has really kind of been pretty significant and 205 00:11:43,500 --> 00:11:46,200 you know with the challenges that we see from budgeting and 206 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:49,300 funding and all that sort of stuff, I guess, what are your 207 00:11:49,300 --> 00:11:52,500 thoughts on? How do you see, you know, people 208 00:11:52,500 --> 00:11:54,300 who are in the public sector? Who might be listening, might be 209 00:11:54,300 --> 00:11:57,200 decision-makers, kind of navigating, some of those key 210 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:01,300 challenges. Yeah, the key challenges, nobody 211 00:12:01,300 --> 00:12:05,400 can, nobody can really afford lift and shift. 212 00:12:05,500 --> 00:12:11,000 And so we can't come in with with a forklift solution, right? 213 00:12:11,300 --> 00:12:14,900 We focus a lot, and I know a lot of us in the industry, spend, a 214 00:12:14,900 --> 00:12:17,900 lot of time thinking about those bridges, those digital Bridges. 215 00:12:17,900 --> 00:12:21,800 We have to provide a way to really Understand where these 216 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:26,200 organizations are no, no sector more important than public 217 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:31,000 sector because it's it's so diverse and their customer base 218 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:36,300 is so diverse, in an Enterprise. We have the luxury of saying 219 00:12:36,300 --> 00:12:40,800 here is our remote access process, and it will be adopted. 220 00:12:40,900 --> 00:12:42,500 You don't really have that luxury in public sector. 221 00:12:42,500 --> 00:12:46,800 You have to build your systems a lot more inclusive and open than 222 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:49,300 that. So standards are huge. 223 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:52,400 We have to find standards. Based Solutions and we have to 224 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:54,600 speak their language. So it's one something that we 225 00:12:54,600 --> 00:13:00,900 focus on a lot here at ID ramp is really just how do we provide 226 00:13:00,900 --> 00:13:06,200 the solution that brings value and simplicity and friction 227 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:10,000 reduction in the Traditional landscape today and then 228 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:15,300 allowing a modular bolt on, you know, a modular integration 229 00:13:15,300 --> 00:13:20,000 point to to evolve into digital identity and by supporting all 230 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:23,600 of those, So we don't look at just one solution and say, this 231 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:27,300 is a solution, we need to sell, we try to come in and and and be 232 00:13:27,300 --> 00:13:30,400 inclusive of what's going on today and then provide options 233 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:32,400 and flexibility from moving beyond that. 234 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:36,400 The ultimate goal obviously is that when we get to a purely 235 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:39,300 decentralized world and everybody's carrying around all 236 00:13:39,300 --> 00:13:42,200 these credentials and verification ID ramp really, 237 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:43,500 shouldn't be needed. Right? 238 00:13:43,500 --> 00:13:46,300 We, our goal is to put ourselves out of business some day and 239 00:13:46,300 --> 00:13:49,100 that's going to be a long, long time coming but but that's where 240 00:13:49,100 --> 00:13:52,100 we need to get to and we just try to provide that open at open 241 00:13:52,100 --> 00:13:54,500 platform and I think that's the most important thing we can. 242 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:57,900 We can keep, we can keep in mind because you're right. 243 00:13:57,900 --> 00:14:00,300 It's moving faster than it ever has. 244 00:14:00,700 --> 00:14:03,100 It's costly. And it's very complex to go in 245 00:14:03,100 --> 00:14:07,300 and replace these core systems. So I think we need to fracture 246 00:14:07,300 --> 00:14:09,700 that and really think small and modular. 247 00:14:10,100 --> 00:14:12,500 And you know, that'll that'll hopefully get us. 248 00:14:12,900 --> 00:14:15,100 Get us where we need to be consumers, are going to come 249 00:14:15,100 --> 00:14:17,400 along faster than the providers, right? 250 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:20,500 I mean, our consumers are incredibly nice. 251 00:14:20,700 --> 00:14:24,400 Like when you put a challenge in front of us, as, you know, as 252 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:26,900 consumers, we find a way through it. 253 00:14:26,900 --> 00:14:30,200 And with the technology we have at our Disposal today, I think 254 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:32,000 that's going to be somewhat easier. 255 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,500 The bigger challenge is going to be on the infrastructure side. 256 00:14:34,700 --> 00:14:37,400 Well, I think the infrastructure poses kind of a unique 257 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,200 challenge, right? Because a lot when you think 258 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:44,100 public sector, you think, you know, for writer for wrong, you 259 00:14:44,100 --> 00:14:49,200 know, archaic kind of old aging crumbling infrastructure whereas 260 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:50,500 that might be true for one country. 261 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:52,300 Tree, but not another. I think of a country like 262 00:14:52,300 --> 00:14:56,900 Estonia which does have digital ID, they do digital voting and, 263 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:00,100 you know, I think some some folks look to them as sort of is 264 00:15:00,100 --> 00:15:02,400 that the future, right? Maybe they don't have all the, 265 00:15:02,700 --> 00:15:05,200 you know, the the, the issues kind of worked out of it yet. 266 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:08,100 I'm sure there's certain concerns around it, but I think 267 00:15:08,100 --> 00:15:13,300 there's a big challenge between starting fresh or how do you 268 00:15:13,300 --> 00:15:16,300 take, what you currently have and not alienate your existing 269 00:15:16,300 --> 00:15:20,500 citizens, for example, and pull them along into this new world? 270 00:15:20,700 --> 00:15:23,200 All right, and I think there's a lot of challenges. 271 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:25,900 How do you? How do you basically re-identify 272 00:15:26,500 --> 00:15:28,600 or reissue? A credential to literally every 273 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:31,800 one of your citizens, if you don't have some way to pull them 274 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:34,900 along into, whatever this new process, or this new system 275 00:15:34,900 --> 00:15:38,400 looks like yeah, yeah, it's that's a great point. 276 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:42,900 And actually, in some ways we're fortunate that were that we're 277 00:15:42,900 --> 00:15:48,200 not further along and we don't have a lot of, you know, things 278 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:52,300 that we need to go back and re-educate or No, for example, 279 00:15:52,300 --> 00:15:57,100 if we would build what I think, you know, is our ideal today and 280 00:15:57,100 --> 00:16:01,300 digital in the digital ecosystem of be very highly decentralized 281 00:16:01,500 --> 00:16:03,600 using things like we talked about last time which is 282 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:04,800 blockchain. You know, writing those 283 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:08,200 credentials in public Ledger networks that nobody has to to 284 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:11,900 own and maintain but had we built this 10 years ago right? 285 00:16:11,900 --> 00:16:14,400 We may not have had any choice but to use some of those 286 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:17,700 centralized systems. So in some respects, you know, I 287 00:16:17,700 --> 00:16:22,900 feel like that I feel like We are now is is right where we 288 00:16:22,900 --> 00:16:26,700 need to be, which, of course, is a natural feeling and the 289 00:16:26,700 --> 00:16:30,500 technologies that have evolved and come along not to mention 290 00:16:30,500 --> 00:16:35,700 that the power that we all now carry in our smartphones, gives 291 00:16:35,700 --> 00:16:39,800 us a really, really unique opportunity to not only do this, 292 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:43,000 but do it right, and do it in a way that we can, that we can 293 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:46,200 continue to build on and not be staring at this thing. 294 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:49,300 And five years going, well, we screwed that up now. 295 00:16:49,300 --> 00:16:52,400 What, you know, and so I think we have a really interesting 296 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:55,700 opportunity and I can't say that we could have done this at any 297 00:16:55,700 --> 00:17:00,000 time prior to to now. So it maybe you know, maybe this 298 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,100 is when it's supposed to happen, it might going to take about 299 00:17:03,100 --> 00:17:07,500 public sector and ikey in general was specific to. 300 00:17:08,300 --> 00:17:14,000 I am I think of you know, a heterogeneity, a heterogeneous 301 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:17,800 type environment so you have a lot of different technologies 302 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:20,099 that need to communicate with one another. 303 00:17:21,599 --> 00:17:26,000 And they, you know, in architectures, that support that 304 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:30,100 type of heterogeneity at scale, you need layers of abstraction 305 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:34,200 you need orchestration and I know those are kind of industry 306 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:36,900 buzzwords but am I on the right track? 307 00:17:36,900 --> 00:17:42,400 Is that kind of what you see out there and if so, like kind of 308 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:46,000 talk us through that tacos, you know about how that 309 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:50,000 orchestration piece in the layers of abstraction fit into 310 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:51,100 the overall. Picture. 311 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:53,400 Yeah. Great Insight. 312 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:55,500 I mean that's that's exactly right. 313 00:17:55,500 --> 00:18:00,200 And I mentioned this earlier standards are are so important 314 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:05,600 here being able to follow not only some some new 315 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:08,500 forward-facing standards that are that we try to achieve some 316 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:11,800 level of interoperability but also existing standards and how 317 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:15,300 we enter operate with with those identity. 318 00:18:15,300 --> 00:18:17,900 Silos that are filling our world right now. 319 00:18:17,900 --> 00:18:21,700 And, you know, we have to We have to provide that 320 00:18:21,700 --> 00:18:25,300 interoperability, we have to provide some control for us as 321 00:18:25,700 --> 00:18:30,100 as residents and citizens to to play some part in that, right? 322 00:18:30,100 --> 00:18:32,300 We have to be involved in those consent decisions. 323 00:18:32,300 --> 00:18:38,400 We have to be involved in what information we send that this is 324 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:40,900 just so over utilized. But you know it's the I walk in 325 00:18:40,900 --> 00:18:43,400 to order a drink at a restaurant or something, right? 326 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:47,300 It's that identity information that I have to disseminate in 327 00:18:47,300 --> 00:18:50,400 order to determine my age. What do we do today? 328 00:18:50,500 --> 00:18:52,800 It's horrible, right? I give them my address, I gave 329 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:55,200 them my birthday. I give them all this other 330 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:57,600 information because I'm presenting a paper credential. 331 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:00,900 So being able to do that digitally, and I need to be in 332 00:19:00,900 --> 00:19:03,300 the middle of that process. So that that's going to 333 00:19:03,300 --> 00:19:05,300 transform things because we're not set up that way. 334 00:19:05,300 --> 00:19:09,200 Right now, all of our, all of our identity, verifications are 335 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:12,900 based on Legacy systems that homerun all that information 336 00:19:12,900 --> 00:19:17,100 back to some Mothership for, you know, for identity verification. 337 00:19:17,100 --> 00:19:20,500 And we need to break that in order to break that we have. 338 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,400 Brace all of those identities silos and make sure they can be 339 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:25,200 included in this message as well. 340 00:19:25,300 --> 00:19:28,800 You know, we can't just say, all right, that was yesterday and 341 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:31,100 this is today. We don't have the luxury of 342 00:19:31,100 --> 00:19:35,100 making that break. We have to include those those 343 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:40,600 variety of existing Solutions and and really orchestrate them, 344 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:42,200 right? At the risk of over utilizing 345 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:47,900 that word, but we have to allow them to play in this journey and 346 00:19:47,900 --> 00:19:50,400 incorporate the ability to do that back. 347 00:19:50,500 --> 00:19:53,500 Backhaul when needed. But then also some options to 348 00:19:53,500 --> 00:19:56,300 take that information and say, okay I know we have to go back 349 00:19:56,300 --> 00:19:58,200 and get it now. But can we just credential eyes 350 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:01,800 that is there anything in here that we can just that we can 351 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:05,300 just do to take the dependency off of that centralized 352 00:20:05,300 --> 00:20:07,400 connections, more often than not. 353 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:08,900 The answer is going to be. Yes, there is. 354 00:20:08,900 --> 00:20:12,200 But sometimes, you know, we may just have to go back and do that 355 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:13,800 check. And that's just fine. 356 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:16,100 We'll live with that. And you will evolve out of that. 357 00:20:16,500 --> 00:20:17,900 We can't just simply turn it off. 358 00:20:17,900 --> 00:20:21,900 So, I like that question. It was a It's great and that is 359 00:20:21,900 --> 00:20:25,100 in my mind, right? That's that's orchestration, 360 00:20:25,100 --> 00:20:27,000 that's what it means. We've got all this stuff. 361 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:30,200 We have to be able to embrace it and Carry It Forward into our 362 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:32,300 vision of what, you know, tomorrow needs to be. 363 00:20:32,300 --> 00:20:33,800 I mean, you mentioned it, you know? 364 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:36,000 Oh kind of utilizing that word orchestration. 365 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:39,000 I feel like identity orchestration has a lot of Buzz 366 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:42,000 Enos around it in different areas, whether it's Cloud 367 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:44,100 on-prem. Now we're talking kind of like 368 00:20:44,100 --> 00:20:47,600 Sovereign identity, right? Things like that, you know, I 369 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:49,900 think there's a difference between talking about it, maybe. 370 00:20:50,500 --> 00:20:54,900 Seeing it trying things out but you know is there anybody doing 371 00:20:54,900 --> 00:20:58,300 this actually in the real world from a production standpoint 372 00:20:58,300 --> 00:21:01,900 where there is an e-government project or something like that 373 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:04,500 that that you can kind of point to and say you know here's 374 00:21:04,500 --> 00:21:09,100 here's an example of how in the real world some government 375 00:21:09,100 --> 00:21:12,700 entity is kind of moving forward on this and kind of leading this 376 00:21:13,100 --> 00:21:16,100 this identity transformation. Yeah and it's incredibly 377 00:21:16,100 --> 00:21:17,700 exciting. There there are a couple. 378 00:21:17,700 --> 00:21:20,400 I mean there are many I'm sure that have been going on. 379 00:21:21,700 --> 00:21:24,600 For years. But without question the most 380 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,700 exciting is the announcement that was made just probably a 381 00:21:27,708 --> 00:21:31,100 couple of months ago now with Ontario. 382 00:21:31,100 --> 00:21:36,600 So Ontario released a digital identity strategy for all of 383 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:40,000 their residents citizens. Did an incredible job not only 384 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,600 of Designing the technology to be privacy-preserving. 385 00:21:43,900 --> 00:21:47,500 All of the things that we hit on, you know, before secure 386 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:52,600 verifiable sovereign. Control and and voluntary, 387 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,200 right? So they hit on all those key 388 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:59,200 points but what they really did well is is put the education 389 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:01,100 together, right? So if you go out and find on 390 00:22:01,100 --> 00:22:03,700 their website, they have an entire section of the website 391 00:22:03,700 --> 00:22:07,100 about Ontario, digital service, and digital identity service, 392 00:22:07,100 --> 00:22:09,500 and how it's going to be used where you plant, where you can 393 00:22:09,500 --> 00:22:13,500 plan on using it, how you get it, what it means and and that 394 00:22:13,500 --> 00:22:18,300 is a, it's a great template for for all of us to understand the 395 00:22:18,300 --> 00:22:20,400 thinking that's gone up going on there. 396 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:24,400 And, and I think it is, you know, that I do know, because 397 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:26,100 we're kind of involved in the technology. 398 00:22:26,500 --> 00:22:29,900 I know the technology underlying, this and it's solid. 399 00:22:29,900 --> 00:22:32,800 It's great stuff. It is privacy-preserving and it 400 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:37,400 will work the scenario. I just provided with proving of, 401 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,100 you know, proving of age. It'll have all of those zero. 402 00:22:40,100 --> 00:22:45,800 Knowledge proof fundamental technology, Innovations, 403 00:22:46,100 --> 00:22:48,700 included in this in this deployment. 404 00:22:48,700 --> 00:22:51,300 So I would suggest we all go. Go and take a look at what 405 00:22:51,300 --> 00:22:53,100 they're doing up there because they're doing some really cool 406 00:22:53,100 --> 00:22:56,000 stuff. And, and again, you know, we now 407 00:22:56,000 --> 00:23:00,000 have to build those bridges for all of their existing merchants 408 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:04,900 and businesses to do to be able to contribute and participate 409 00:23:05,300 --> 00:23:10,000 and try to give them an easier way to do that, you know, to to 410 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:17,500 embrace this new digital ID, as as consumers evolve themselves 411 00:23:17,500 --> 00:23:21,600 or voluntarily sign up to, you know, Part of this digital ID 412 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,000 ecosystem. So that's a, that's a great one. 413 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,200 There's a lot of movement, there's a lot of stuff going on 414 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,600 in Europe. Germany has a great initiative 415 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:32,400 over there for digital identity, but without question the best, 416 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:37,200 I've seen from a organization perspective, and education is 417 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:40,000 what's going on in Ontario and might confer going to be doing 418 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:42,900 all these, you know, future facing. 419 00:23:42,900 --> 00:23:47,700 I'd say Cutting Edge technology, initiatives, mobile, driver's, 420 00:23:47,700 --> 00:23:53,000 license, internet voting vaccine Passports, it can't be based on 421 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:58,500 passwords for a passwords. Are I feel like our our show is 422 00:23:58,500 --> 00:24:02,500 99% around kill the password password stock. 423 00:24:02,500 --> 00:24:05,000 Everybody knows that we can't build the future on the 424 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:10,000 password. So one I guess you know is that 425 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:14,400 when you're talking about all these things, can we just assume 426 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:16,300 the password is not going to be there? 427 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:22,300 Or is that too, too? Middle of an assumption or is 428 00:24:22,300 --> 00:24:26,100 that too uneducated to think that we're actually ready to get 429 00:24:26,100 --> 00:24:29,100 away from that? And then what is really holding 430 00:24:29,100 --> 00:24:32,700 us back from past for those future in your, in your opinion? 431 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,900 Yeah, password suck. I've got t-shirts, actually that 432 00:24:36,900 --> 00:24:40,200 we made up it just has our logo and it says password suck. 433 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:44,400 There Is No Escape. I'm going to I'm Really Gonna, 434 00:24:44,700 --> 00:24:47,700 I'm gonna put myself out there a little bit here but there's no 435 00:24:47,700 --> 00:24:49,800 excuse. If an application is written 436 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:54,300 today that It uses a password then that is on the developer to 437 00:24:54,300 --> 00:24:59,900 own that there is absolutely no excuse to use passwords today. 438 00:25:00,300 --> 00:25:06,000 Even if you use a simple verify, my email to factor credential or 439 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:11,600 whatever, it's much much better than than requiring registration 440 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:16,700 and the creation of a password and every single day I want to 441 00:25:16,700 --> 00:25:18,500 interact with some service. And guess what? 442 00:25:18,500 --> 00:25:21,900 The first thing they asked me to do is Create a password so I 443 00:25:21,900 --> 00:25:24,000 could not be more passionate about it. 444 00:25:24,100 --> 00:25:28,500 There's absolutely zero reason. Today, the password is exist 445 00:25:28,700 --> 00:25:38,700 other than our stagnant thinking and and really the the lack of 446 00:25:38,700 --> 00:25:42,700 forward momentum within the Enterprise as the carrier. 447 00:25:42,700 --> 00:25:44,400 And I don't want to blame Enterprise. 448 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,000 I just think they're perfectly suited because they can they can 449 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,200 demand it and and you know, for the most part Part, everyone's 450 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,900 moving that direction, right? In various different ways, some, 451 00:25:55,700 --> 00:25:58,200 you know, better than others. But at the end of the day, if 452 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:02,300 we, if we remove them, not mask, mm, not put them in some kind of 453 00:26:02,300 --> 00:26:06,100 a manager application that fills it in for me, they're still 454 00:26:06,100 --> 00:26:08,500 exposure there. I want him gone, right? 455 00:26:08,500 --> 00:26:11,900 I have the ability to hold cryptographic connections 456 00:26:11,900 --> 00:26:15,400 between myself by, you know, with help of my smartphone or 457 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:19,800 whatever and every website. Every person every car, 458 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:23,200 everything I interact with. I have the power to do that. 459 00:26:23,300 --> 00:26:25,600 I'm just not doing it because the applications have been 460 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:30,400 retrofitted to to use it yet. But passwords have to go away. 461 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:34,000 I mean, I hope we can get to a point where we don't even have 462 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,600 to have this conversation. Like I said, I it needs to 463 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:40,800 become socially, uncool right to create a password. 464 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,900 And once that happens on the consumers, go, well I would buy 465 00:26:43,900 --> 00:26:45,600 your products or I would use your site. 466 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,500 If you didn't ask me to put in a password then I think we can get 467 00:26:48,500 --> 00:26:50,300 somewhere and I see that day coming. 468 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:56,600 Oh, I just wish it were today. Yeah, and I think that probably 469 00:26:57,100 --> 00:27:00,500 my, I think the bigger issue is exactly where you went, which is 470 00:27:00,500 --> 00:27:05,700 that there's still these edge cases where it's kind of like, 471 00:27:05,700 --> 00:27:09,600 oh well, that's where a biometric wouldn't work or 472 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:13,900 position based authentication, wouldn't work, but I still think 473 00:27:13,900 --> 00:27:19,000 there are misconceptions related to, you know, Biometrics, 474 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:23,500 whether it's facial scanning. Or fingerprint that somehow your 475 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:28,300 your face has now turned into something that if there's a data 476 00:27:28,300 --> 00:27:31,500 breach someone's going to have a picture of your face, right? 477 00:27:32,700 --> 00:27:36,600 So I think there are concerns about the use of facial scanning 478 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:43,400 technology I'm wondering are there ways that we can still 479 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:48,000 respect privacy and at the same time, accomplish the same result 480 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:52,400 so fingerprints voice. Us match or not using a 481 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:56,100 biometric using possession but not using a biometric. 482 00:27:56,100 --> 00:27:57,900 I just wanted to get your thoughts on that. 483 00:27:57,900 --> 00:28:05,500 Yeah I know I think that's that's great a great way to look 484 00:28:05,500 --> 00:28:08,900 at it because there is a really mean there's a lot of 485 00:28:08,900 --> 00:28:14,800 conversation around facial scan and and Biometrics in general. 486 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:16,700 And there is a right way, there's a wrong way. 487 00:28:16,700 --> 00:28:23,500 That's all of course objective in my the the Biometrics that we 488 00:28:23,500 --> 00:28:27,800 have and and possess are just factors I would much rather use 489 00:28:28,900 --> 00:28:32,400 something that is you know that's tied to me as a as a 490 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:37,300 proof than a password or or something I know but again 491 00:28:37,300 --> 00:28:39,900 that's book, you know, put that in the right context if it's me 492 00:28:40,100 --> 00:28:45,000 providing that biometric in a zero knowledge way that is 493 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,000 basically just going to check some you know check some box and 494 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:51,500 say, okay, yep, that looks like Mike And then pass along the 495 00:28:51,500 --> 00:28:53,900 fact that yes, that's Mike, I'm okay with that. 496 00:28:53,900 --> 00:28:57,300 If it's passing that whole my a biometric then, you know, 497 00:28:57,300 --> 00:29:00,000 there's there's issues there and I think that a lot of that is 498 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,100 the biggest challenge. We're going to have is, is that 499 00:29:03,100 --> 00:29:06,900 we're, you know, our challenge or our goal is to make this 500 00:29:06,900 --> 00:29:11,400 technology easy for the masses and we can't explain. 501 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,900 We just have to know that it's trusted, we can't explain what's 502 00:29:15,900 --> 00:29:18,100 happening. We just have to develop in a way 503 00:29:18,100 --> 00:29:20,200 that the consumer is comfortable. 504 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,100 With with what's going on. I think it's absolutely 505 00:29:23,100 --> 00:29:28,400 essential that we do some, some type of biometric factor in a 506 00:29:28,408 --> 00:29:31,000 much better way than we do today, right. 507 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:35,400 I use Biometrics to log into my bank account today, but if I 508 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:39,500 scan my face and hand you my phone, you can do anything you 509 00:29:39,500 --> 00:29:42,000 want to do, right? That should that be the case? 510 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:44,500 I would feel personally, I would feel much better. 511 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,500 If, my bank said, okay, during this session we're going to 512 00:29:47,500 --> 00:29:50,700 scan, you know, once every 5 seconds or three, S or 513 00:29:50,708 --> 00:29:53,100 continual. We're going to continue to scan 514 00:29:53,100 --> 00:29:55,100 if I turn that phone away it locks, right? 515 00:29:55,100 --> 00:29:57,400 That's how application should be designed. 516 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:00,700 And and that's the use in my opinion or where, you know 517 00:30:00,900 --> 00:30:04,300 facial scanning technology and biometric Factor type 518 00:30:04,300 --> 00:30:08,400 Technologies should be used. So I think there's a I think 519 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:12,600 there's a huge role in Biometrics and the in the in our 520 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,400 future especially in the future of digital identity, there's no 521 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:18,600 question. We have a great way today to 522 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,800 derive an identity. We can Terry identities through 523 00:30:22,100 --> 00:30:27,300 credentials you know and cryptographic connections but we 524 00:30:27,300 --> 00:30:31,800 absolutely need those biometric factors in order to secure our 525 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:35,500 applications and provide that you know that last mile of 526 00:30:35,500 --> 00:30:37,500 defense and things, get much easier. 527 00:30:37,500 --> 00:30:41,100 Once we do that, right? We reduce fraud, we reduce we 528 00:30:41,100 --> 00:30:42,800 certainly elimination of passwords. 529 00:30:42,900 --> 00:30:46,100 We keep having that conversation but they should go away in favor 530 00:30:46,100 --> 00:30:50,200 of who I am, you know, we shouldn't have a Persona at all. 531 00:30:50,300 --> 00:30:54,200 All that I create I should just use me so. 532 00:30:54,500 --> 00:30:57,000 So I think that's going to there's a huge role there and 533 00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,800 that technology is evolving. I think we've seen, you know, 534 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:03,200 the market explode with biometric service providers. 535 00:31:03,500 --> 00:31:06,200 I know we've certainly seen our share biometric service 536 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:09,100 providers coming in and saying, hey, you know, we really need a 537 00:31:09,100 --> 00:31:13,500 better carrier to carry Biometrics into the identity 538 00:31:13,500 --> 00:31:15,900 market. So, you know, we've had some 539 00:31:15,900 --> 00:31:19,000 interesting conversations there and and I just think there's a 540 00:31:19,008 --> 00:31:23,500 huge a huge future You're as Biometrics really are 541 00:31:23,700 --> 00:31:26,900 assimilated into our, that's a probably not the right way to 542 00:31:26,900 --> 00:31:31,300 say it, but as our Biometrics are integrated into applications 543 00:31:31,300 --> 00:31:35,400 and and the development of applications and authentication 544 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:37,600 systems. Here's a, here's a question for 545 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,900 you because I think Biometrics interesting, obviously that's an 546 00:31:40,900 --> 00:31:44,300 area that a lot of I think people are hanging their hats on 547 00:31:44,300 --> 00:31:49,800 right whether it's voiceprint face print fingerprints at some 548 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:51,800 point in the future. Future, maybe in this is kind of 549 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,600 already happened, you know, there's this concept around 550 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,800 inserting an RFID chip right into your wrist, your hand, your 551 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,400 finger, whatever it may be. Here's my question though. 552 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,700 Is that biometric authentication, if it's a 553 00:32:03,700 --> 00:32:07,900 physical device that's inserted into you would you consider that 554 00:32:07,900 --> 00:32:12,700 biometric authentication? Know, it's it's another Factor 555 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:17,800 now, depending on the scope of the integration of that device, 556 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:20,700 if that device when removed can detect that it's been Moved. 557 00:32:20,700 --> 00:32:22,900 Then you can make an argument for biometric, right? 558 00:32:22,900 --> 00:32:24,900 If it says, oh hey, I'm no longer in Mike. 559 00:32:24,900 --> 00:32:28,400 I'm now in Jeff but then then absolutely there's a biometric 560 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,000 component to that, but if not, then it's just another factor, 561 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:34,600 it's no more, it's of no more value to convenience features 562 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:36,700 what it is. It's a no more value for me, 563 00:32:36,700 --> 00:32:39,600 from an identification perspective than pulling out my 564 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,400 physical driver's license from from that, you know, from that 565 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:46,900 perspective. So I think when we talk about 566 00:32:46,900 --> 00:32:50,100 things like that, it's for convenience. 567 00:32:50,300 --> 00:32:52,100 Right. It's almost like the the pet 568 00:32:52,100 --> 00:32:53,600 chipping there's a great analogy. 569 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:56,600 Mike just Associated. RFID tags for people's pets. 570 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:01,600 Will make a headline somewhere but it really is a convenience 571 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:03,600 thing, right? It's not about identification at 572 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,100 that point. It's about reducing the friction 573 00:33:06,100 --> 00:33:08,600 from me and my day-to-day processes. 574 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:10,800 And I mentioned this, a lot to my team. 575 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,300 When we're trying to explain what I want the user experience 576 00:33:13,300 --> 00:33:17,100 to be, I'm going to date myself. You remember the old, you know, 577 00:33:17,100 --> 00:33:20,000 get smart when you know Max Mart was be busy. 578 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:23,300 He was, he was walking, you know, he was walking down the 579 00:33:23,300 --> 00:33:25,700 hallway and all the doors, just open and just got out of his 580 00:33:25,700 --> 00:33:28,200 way. That's how my identity Journey 581 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,300 needs to be right. I want a hundred different doors 582 00:33:31,300 --> 00:33:34,900 that are protecting the whatever I'm trying to get to, but I 583 00:33:34,908 --> 00:33:36,500 don't want to have to interact with any of them. 584 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:39,000 I just want him to get out of my way and that's where I think 585 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:43,200 Biometrics provide something that we can't do even in, you 586 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:46,000 know, today when we say password removal, you know what id rap. 587 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:47,500 Oh gosh, we can remove your passwords. 588 00:33:47,500 --> 00:33:51,200 We ask you to form a connection, maybe scan a QR You are code, 589 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:52,900 who wants? I mean it's still a lot of 590 00:33:52,908 --> 00:33:55,400 friction, right? And and is it better than typing 591 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,200 in a password or having to go and look it up on a notepad 592 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:00,400 stuck to my monitor? Absolutely, it's better than 593 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,700 that, but that's not where we need to get to write, 594 00:34:03,700 --> 00:34:05,100 eventually. We're going to get to. 595 00:34:05,100 --> 00:34:09,000 I'm just me and I'm interacting with the things everything in my 596 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,199 way, knows how to look for me and figure out who I am and just 597 00:34:12,199 --> 00:34:15,500 get out of my way. So that's, that's my Holy Grail. 598 00:34:15,500 --> 00:34:19,500 I hope to see it in my lifetime. We got to get going, fair 599 00:34:19,500 --> 00:34:20,199 enough. I think. 600 00:34:20,300 --> 00:34:23,199 Feel the same way. I think it's a way around, 601 00:34:23,900 --> 00:34:25,100 right? Something like that. 602 00:34:25,100 --> 00:34:28,300 So, you know, like this has been a fantastic conversation. 603 00:34:28,300 --> 00:34:30,600 I want to be kind of cognitive the time that we have with you 604 00:34:31,500 --> 00:34:34,400 and this has been pretty pretty heavy conversation to around 605 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,400 public identity and a lot of the concerns and challenges that 606 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,000 kind of goes along with it. So what I want to do is start to 607 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:43,000 pull us up to the surface and and I'm a little bit of a 608 00:34:43,007 --> 00:34:45,600 lighter note here with you, so we're going to go something 609 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:50,800 non-identity related. And what I have for you is how 610 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:54,199 many places have you lived? And what was your favorite one? 611 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:58,000 I am so boring. I've lived in a total of three 612 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:03,000 places. And you know my favorite even 613 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,500 though it was the shortest and that's probably why it's my 614 00:35:05,500 --> 00:35:09,200 favorite was Tucson. Arizona and I love Tucson 615 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:14,100 because I could drive up to Mount Lemmon and snow ski and I 616 00:35:14,107 --> 00:35:16,600 could drive down and play golf in the same afternoon. 617 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,600 And at that stage of my life, I didn't have a lot else to do but 618 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:23,100 Ski and Golf and it was great. It was absolutely awesome. 619 00:35:23,900 --> 00:35:27,800 I love Tucson, I was only there for a couple of years and I 620 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:29,500 lived in Omaha for a number of years. 621 00:35:29,500 --> 00:35:34,700 Did my Start up out there in the mid to late 90s and what a great 622 00:35:34,700 --> 00:35:37,600 Community, you know, just just unbelievable. 623 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:42,100 People will businesses thriving, Tech Community, loved it but you 624 00:35:42,107 --> 00:35:45,100 know, home is Iowa. And this is where I started and 625 00:35:45,100 --> 00:35:48,200 probably we're all finished. I love to get out of Iowa as 626 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:50,900 everyone in Iowa does, right? We love to go. 627 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:55,200 We love to go south when it's cold and North when it's hot but 628 00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:58,900 it's where I've been. So I am I'm pretty boring. 629 00:35:58,900 --> 00:36:01,200 Only been three, Well, two sides that bad right? 630 00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:04,200 I think any, I don't know any way to who would argue with, you 631 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:07,300 know, skiing during the day or, you know, and then going 632 00:36:07,300 --> 00:36:08,800 golfing. That's that's things like a 633 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:10,800 pretty full life. I would be happy with that. 634 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:14,800 I'm pretty boring too. I'm doing the math in my head 635 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:18,100 and I only go up to four different places and I've been 636 00:36:18,100 --> 00:36:21,200 in the Chicago area for the vast majority of my life. 637 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,700 That's so we know I think when we want to caveat the the one 638 00:36:24,700 --> 00:36:28,600 place we're limiting it, I think to a kind of a geographical City 639 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:30,700 kind of area. Certainly moved around the 640 00:36:30,707 --> 00:36:34,000 Chicago area quite a bit. I don't know if I can really 641 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,300 kind of call it my favorite because it's really my only 642 00:36:36,300 --> 00:36:38,900 adult really kind of memory around it. 643 00:36:38,900 --> 00:36:43,000 I've been here since I was like six years old so I don't get to 644 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:44,900 see the mountains. We just don't have them here. 645 00:36:44,900 --> 00:36:48,400 It's all flat, it's all traffic. It's all construction. 646 00:36:48,900 --> 00:36:52,100 People are really nice. The food is really good but man, 647 00:36:52,100 --> 00:36:55,000 I love when I get to travel and see different types of 648 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,200 geography. So I love going to Monterrey. 649 00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:00,300 Mexico. For example, we We've had some 650 00:37:00,300 --> 00:37:03,400 clients, we've made some friends down there and every time I'm 651 00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:05,900 down there, I just kind of like sit and stare at the giant 652 00:37:05,900 --> 00:37:09,200 mountains and, you know, that just the way that it looks is so 653 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:11,000 fantastic. I love going to California as 654 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:14,100 well for the same reason, but also for the ocean I'm not much 655 00:37:14,100 --> 00:37:17,400 of an East Coast guy. I'm not a heat and humidity guy. 656 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:22,700 So for me, I think temperature is very important as well and 657 00:37:22,700 --> 00:37:25,700 low humidity. But you know I meant you know 658 00:37:25,700 --> 00:37:29,700 I'm boring to in that four places, mostly Chicago. 659 00:37:29,900 --> 00:37:33,000 And you know, maybe at some point in the future I will 660 00:37:33,300 --> 00:37:36,600 spread my wings and fly all bit more but like you I love to 661 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:40,000 travel and see other areas Jim. What about yourself? 662 00:37:40,500 --> 00:37:44,400 So I've moved around quite a bit, I count nine distinct 663 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:48,800 places that I've lived, many more addresses than just 9, but 664 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:54,300 9, distinct places my favorite place to live and I think this 665 00:37:54,300 --> 00:37:58,100 is, if anybody's looking for a place to move to in the United 666 00:37:58,100 --> 00:38:02,300 States gives Charlotte North Carolina, a consideration. 667 00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:06,900 It's like a small City with all the big city stuff. 668 00:38:07,100 --> 00:38:12,000 It's a home airport for what, what is now American Airlines? 669 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:17,200 Whether you use it was us, are it, you know, that they're 670 00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:20,100 putting in like, Light Rail and things like that. 671 00:38:20,700 --> 00:38:23,100 But you can really afford to live there. 672 00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:27,200 So I definitely would recommend that to anybody who's thinking 673 00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:31,400 about trying to find their City. But I want to just mention one 674 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:34,700 because I think it's a funny story was that I lived in 675 00:38:34,700 --> 00:38:36,200 Middletown. Pennsylvania. 676 00:38:36,700 --> 00:38:39,500 Do you guys have any idea of what's in Middletown? 677 00:38:39,500 --> 00:38:43,700 Pennsylvania. That special, it's a Three Mile 678 00:38:43,700 --> 00:38:47,500 Island. Three Mile Island is the one 679 00:38:47,500 --> 00:38:51,100 location the United States where he had a major meltdown of a 680 00:38:51,100 --> 00:38:54,900 nuclear power plant. And so when that took place, 681 00:38:54,900 --> 00:39:00,900 there was a release of toxic nuclear gas from from the tower 682 00:39:01,300 --> 00:39:05,200 and you know, obviously cause problems that made people want 683 00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:08,500 to not live there. So one of the things that the 684 00:39:08,500 --> 00:39:12,300 electric company did was they were giving electricity away for 685 00:39:12,300 --> 00:39:14,600 like 20 years after the accident. 686 00:39:14,700 --> 00:39:18,700 Well, I had moved to that town right before that, that ended. 687 00:39:18,700 --> 00:39:22,700 So I was able to get free electricity for a few months 688 00:39:22,700 --> 00:39:25,600 while I was there. And then even when they start 689 00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:28,900 charging for electricity was extremely cheap, so kind of a 690 00:39:28,900 --> 00:39:31,500 cool story. I'm glad you established a 691 00:39:31,508 --> 00:39:33,600 timeline there because I thought maybe you were going to say you 692 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:36,700 had something to do with the Three Mile Island accident. 693 00:39:36,700 --> 00:39:39,000 And I was gonna start to ask you some questions and maybe 694 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:42,600 validate some things for us. But I like how you saved it at 695 00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:46,600 the end and said, oh, I was there towards the end of the 20 696 00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:49,300 years of free electricity so you kind of skated away on that one. 697 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:53,100 Yeah, right, well I have no problem dating myself but I'm 698 00:39:53,100 --> 00:39:57,000 not quite old enough to have actually played a part in that. 699 00:39:57,100 --> 00:39:58,500 You know, it's funny. You mention Charlotte because my 700 00:39:58,500 --> 00:40:01,200 wife and I are actually thinking A about moving to that area. 701 00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:04,000 We've been looking at Asheville quite a bit, which is a little 702 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:06,700 bit West of Charlotte. I have a friend who lives north 703 00:40:06,700 --> 00:40:09,600 of the city of Charlotte and, you know, there's mountains, 704 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:11,200 it's the blue. I think it's the Blue Ridge 705 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:14,800 Mountains or in that area. And the weather is a lot 706 00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:17,100 different in the Asheville area start at the base of the 707 00:40:17,107 --> 00:40:19,000 mountains. So it's not quite as hot and 708 00:40:19,008 --> 00:40:21,800 humid, but I'm not going to say anything bad about Asheville, 709 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:26,300 but if we ever get back to being Road Warriors at the level that 710 00:40:26,300 --> 00:40:29,400 we were at, you'd be better off your Charlotte because you've 711 00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:33,300 got International Airport there. Otherwise you can fly from 712 00:40:33,300 --> 00:40:36,600 Asheville to Charlotte or drive the two hours to get there, each 713 00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:40,800 time, and there's a Nationals more expensive than Charlotte at 714 00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:43,000 least when I was there, you know, eight years ago. 715 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:46,500 It was, it was a lot more expensive than Charlotte. 716 00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:48,000 Yeah. For sure, I think that's the one 717 00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:51,100 thing I would miss about moving out of Chicago is over here for 718 00:40:51,100 --> 00:40:53,500 all its faults and quirks as I can get anywhere. 719 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:57,000 On one flight pretty much. I very rarely have to take a 720 00:40:57,008 --> 00:40:59,500 connection unless I'm going somewhere super International. 721 00:40:59,500 --> 00:41:04,800 I Even Paris London Frankfurt. All those are spots, I can get 722 00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:06,500 two and one flight, which is pretty nice. 723 00:41:07,300 --> 00:41:10,100 So, I would certainly miss that. I can get to Chicago. 724 00:41:10,100 --> 00:41:12,600 That's a Chicago or Denver. It's not the only places like 725 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:17,100 places, like a good too, but I agree Charlotte's a beautiful 726 00:41:17,100 --> 00:41:18,600 area. Now, you may be brought to you 727 00:41:18,607 --> 00:41:20,000 by the Charlotte Chamber of Commerce. 728 00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:23,400 It's a great area because it's so accessible. 729 00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:25,800 Like you said, these are lines. You can get right in, but it 730 00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:28,300 doesn't feel like you're in a big big city I like, yeah. 731 00:41:28,300 --> 00:41:29,700 So we turn this in a commercial for Charles. 732 00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:31,400 Nice job. Jim exactly. 733 00:41:32,500 --> 00:41:34,100 Go Charlotte. All right, well why don't we 734 00:41:34,100 --> 00:41:36,500 start to wrap things up here? Mike you've been great with your 735 00:41:36,500 --> 00:41:39,900 time and we certainly appreciate spending it with us before we 736 00:41:39,900 --> 00:41:42,100 go. Any kind of final thoughts or 737 00:41:42,100 --> 00:41:44,500 words of wisdom. That folks can kind of take away 738 00:41:44,500 --> 00:41:47,100 from this conversation, as they're thinking about, you 739 00:41:47,100 --> 00:41:50,000 know, Sovereign Identity or public Identity or really 740 00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:51,100 anything. We've kind of covered here. 741 00:41:51,100 --> 00:41:52,600 That people should be thinking about. 742 00:41:52,700 --> 00:41:57,100 Yeah, don't overthink it just go right Technologies. 743 00:41:57,100 --> 00:41:59,300 There, there are plenty of people. 744 00:41:59,700 --> 00:42:04,200 That can help you start the journey get where you want to 745 00:42:04,207 --> 00:42:07,700 go. I see too many people that are 746 00:42:07,700 --> 00:42:11,200 that have been sitting on the fence for for way too long, 747 00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:14,700 trying to figure out trying to wait for the right man. 748 00:42:14,700 --> 00:42:16,300 It's got to be perfect. I'm going to wait for this. 749 00:42:16,300 --> 00:42:19,000 This next thing, you know, this next thing that comes out that's 750 00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:20,400 going to get us where we need to go. 751 00:42:21,100 --> 00:42:23,400 Trust me on this. I've been doing this my entire 752 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:26,500 professional career. There is no Holy Grail. 753 00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:29,200 We're not going to get to this perfect Utopia it. 754 00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:32,800 We got Oh, and you have to start moving the needle, so move the 755 00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:36,100 needle and you know, will come back next year and we'll move it 756 00:42:36,100 --> 00:42:40,900 a little bit further, but technology is solid and we're 757 00:42:40,900 --> 00:42:44,800 ready to help people take that Journey, all of us collectively 758 00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:47,900 as an industry, ready to help people take that Journey. 759 00:42:47,900 --> 00:42:50,800 So let's get going. And let's start, let's start 760 00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:53,700 changing changing our identity futures for the better. 761 00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:56,600 That sounds like a great Battle Cry here. 762 00:42:56,600 --> 00:43:01,400 I'm ready to go, go into battle with you Mike Like let's do it. 763 00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,500 Jim how about yourself? Well, Jeff, I keep getting more 764 00:43:04,500 --> 00:43:09,100 and more one over on identity management with blockchain 765 00:43:09,100 --> 00:43:12,700 decentralized, identity. I'm not sure. 766 00:43:12,700 --> 00:43:15,500 I'm still at that point where it's like, I can fully 767 00:43:15,500 --> 00:43:19,000 articulate, the use cases, but it's, it doesn't seem to be 768 00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:23,400 going away, and it seems to be kind of showing up as like, hey, 769 00:43:23,700 --> 00:43:28,100 you know, here are some real world examples of how it can be 770 00:43:28,100 --> 00:43:30,200 useful. I think, you know, Ingrid of the 771 00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:33,700 password. Biometrics wallets. 772 00:43:34,500 --> 00:43:38,700 It's just it's starting to connect and even in this old 773 00:43:38,700 --> 00:43:43,700 brain of mind that the pathways are starting to the diodes are 774 00:43:43,700 --> 00:43:48,300 starting to connect with one another and I don't know, I'm 775 00:43:48,300 --> 00:43:51,200 starting to get one over. I've imagined, I was a lot of 776 00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:54,300 loose wires and stuff going on out there, but we'll leave that 777 00:43:54,300 --> 00:43:57,400 for another conversation. So I think that's a good spot 778 00:43:57,400 --> 00:43:58,500 that we can leave it for this week. 779 00:43:58,500 --> 00:44:00,700 I'm going to have some some way. It's in the show notes for you 780 00:44:00,707 --> 00:44:03,900 be able to connect with, Mike on LinkedIn, you can learn more 781 00:44:03,900 --> 00:44:07,600 about ID rap as well. They're a tidy ramp our am p.com 782 00:44:08,900 --> 00:44:11,100 and also put a link to Ontario's digital identity. 783 00:44:11,100 --> 00:44:14,400 They have a great website that kind of really is, probably one 784 00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:16,500 of the more transparent ones that I've seen, as to how 785 00:44:16,500 --> 00:44:18,900 they've approached us. They've got a whole section 786 00:44:18,900 --> 00:44:21,800 really on their timeline of how they've explained how they're 787 00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:24,000 going about doing it. So I think would be interesting 788 00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:26,500 in some point, maybe if we can pull some strings and maybe get 789 00:44:26,500 --> 00:44:30,800 someone from that team over here to You know what, how they've 790 00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:32,000 done? It kind of bought gone about 791 00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:34,800 doing this, so definitely check them out. 792 00:44:35,100 --> 00:44:37,700 We'll have that link in the show notes as well as links for Jim 793 00:44:37,700 --> 00:44:39,600 and myself on LinkedIn. We're always happy to connect 794 00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:42,900 the folks who are listening. Send to show ideas, concerns 795 00:44:42,900 --> 00:44:45,200 comments, tell us we're stupid. Tell us, were great, doesn't 796 00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:48,800 matter either one works for us. So with that, we'll go ahead and 797 00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:50,700 leave it. You can also find us on the web 798 00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:54,600 and its identity at the center.com and on Twitter at 799 00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:57,500 idac podcast. Mike, thanks so much for your 800 00:44:57,500 --> 00:44:58,900 time. Jim thanks so much for your 801 00:44:58,900 --> 00:45:00,900 time. And we'll talk with everyone in 802 00:45:00,900 --> 00:45:02,200 the next one. Thanks guys. 803 00:45:07,100 --> 00:45:10,000 Thanks for listening to the identity at the center podcast. 804 00:45:10,100 --> 00:45:12,400 If you like what you heard, don't forget to subscribe and 805 00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:15,600 visit us on the web and identity at the center.com.