1 00:00:09,700 --> 00:00:13,000 You're listening to the identity of the center podcast, this is 2 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:15,600 the show that talks about identity and access management 3 00:00:15,700 --> 00:00:18,600 and making sure you know who has access to what let's get 4 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:24,100 started. Welcome to the identity of the 5 00:00:24,100 --> 00:00:26,000 sender podcast, I'm Jeff. And that's Jim. 6 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:27,800 Hey, Jim. Hey, Jeff, how are you? 7 00:00:27,900 --> 00:00:29,900 That's a bad yourself. I'm doing great. 8 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:33,100 I well, I am a little bit sad. There's the last day of the 9 00:00:33,100 --> 00:00:35,100 conference. We're here at the gardener. 10 00:00:35,100 --> 00:00:39,600 I am Summit in the RSM podcasting, sweet. 11 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:42,200 The sweet sweet. We've talked about that, that 12 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:44,900 total joke. Yeah, that's the joke. 13 00:00:44,900 --> 00:00:47,700 That's getting a bit too old, but fortunately we won't tell 14 00:00:47,700 --> 00:00:51,400 them any more times. And I had a thought today. 15 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:52,800 Oh boy. What? 16 00:00:52,900 --> 00:00:57,900 Is or what makes a person part of the identity arathi? 17 00:00:58,300 --> 00:01:00,000 That's a good question. I don't know. 18 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:05,300 I think probably being part of the speaking tour, contributing 19 00:01:05,300 --> 00:01:09,300 back to the identity body at large, right? 20 00:01:09,300 --> 00:01:13,300 Although people were in it. So I'll be honest, I don't know 21 00:01:13,300 --> 00:01:16,500 if I like the name because it feels like it's elitist a little 22 00:01:16,500 --> 00:01:18,900 bit, but I get the concept of it. 23 00:01:18,900 --> 00:01:22,500 I think anybody can be part of the identity riding. 24 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:26,600 But to do that, you have to be, you have to be contributing some 25 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:29,300 way back, right? You can't just be a consumer. 26 00:01:29,300 --> 00:01:31,500 You need to be a producer of something. 27 00:01:31,900 --> 00:01:36,100 That's how I would Define it. So who gets to determine whether 28 00:01:36,100 --> 00:01:39,400 your, the identi Rowdy other people, or you, it's like a 29 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:41,900 nickname. You cannot pick your own 30 00:01:41,900 --> 00:01:44,200 nickname. It has to be bequeath upon you. 31 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:47,500 Someone has to tell you that. You're part of it and there's 32 00:01:47,500 --> 00:01:49,100 consider it. I think it's probably something 33 00:01:49,100 --> 00:01:51,900 where I'm not worried about like you know it's not like a one off 34 00:01:51,900 --> 00:01:53,600 thing. Like oh I gave us Once at nine 35 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:56,000 part of it, that's how it works. I think it's continued 36 00:01:56,000 --> 00:02:01,500 repetition and continued production of things back to the 37 00:02:01,500 --> 00:02:03,600 identity community at large. That's how I would think about. 38 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:06,600 It was just to bring It full circle. 39 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:11,600 So our guest today is Vittorio Bertucci and I asked him the 40 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:14,500 same question. What makes a person part of the 41 00:02:14,500 --> 00:02:17,600 identity Rowdy and it's Vittorio Bertolucci. 42 00:02:18,700 --> 00:02:20,200 Come on man. Show some respect. 43 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:23,000 Hey, have I pronounce anybody's name rights today? 44 00:02:23,100 --> 00:02:26,800 No, no. Thanks for having me, guys. 45 00:02:27,100 --> 00:02:30,900 Well, it's a very, very difficult question. 46 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:35,000 I'd say, you know, that scene in The Matrix in which the article 47 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:38,300 tells knew no one can tell you. If you're the one is like being 48 00:02:38,300 --> 00:02:41,200 in love, only, you know, where it's porn, right? 49 00:02:41,700 --> 00:02:43,800 You know, when you see it. Yeah, you know, he's when you 50 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:47,800 see it, but I think that there are two to meet two definitions, 51 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:51,400 come to mind. One is if you have a one degree 52 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:57,300 of separation from Ian, Glaser the SVP on Salesforce, then you 53 00:02:57,300 --> 00:02:59,000 can call yourself an identity, right? 54 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:02,600 Even if you are a, he is to say baker. 55 00:03:03,100 --> 00:03:06,500 I think that the hair if a nosy are and they are on a first-name 56 00:03:06,500 --> 00:03:09,800 basis, you can call but perhaps and I don't care about you, 57 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:14,700 that's one little steps but another, which is a more 58 00:03:14,700 --> 00:03:17,800 verifiable. I think that the whomever has 59 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:22,000 spent enough time and engaged enough with the community to 60 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:29,500 have opinions, on on identity matters, that will be considered 61 00:03:29,500 --> 00:03:34,300 and respected by others as valid opinions, as opposed to just 62 00:03:34,300 --> 00:03:38,600 like parroting the talking points that actually someone 63 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:43,600 that connects the dots in the context of identity and delivers 64 00:03:43,900 --> 00:03:49,400 a statement which we might agree or disagree but you You see that 65 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:54,000 it is a competent and relevant and you see the rationale behind 66 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,400 it. So to me, anyone that is in that 67 00:03:56,400 --> 00:04:01,100 position is an identity. Now, I agree that often that is 68 00:04:01,300 --> 00:04:05,300 correlated with contributing to the community because it's rare 69 00:04:05,300 --> 00:04:08,000 that people can be a lurker for a decade. 70 00:04:08,100 --> 00:04:10,700 And then suddenly one day, wake up and say alright here is my 71 00:04:10,700 --> 00:04:13,000 statement. Usually it's a dialogue, it's a 72 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,800 conversation. But yeah, that's that's very 73 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:18,100 Criterion. I use I think that's pretty 74 00:04:18,100 --> 00:04:18,600 fair. R. 75 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:21,100 And for those who don't know, Vittorio definitely part of the 76 00:04:21,100 --> 00:04:23,700 ident Irani. You've probably seen him 77 00:04:23,700 --> 00:04:25,200 striding the Halls. He's been on the show a few 78 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:26,600 different times. So if you want to learn more 79 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:30,200 about his background, I would encourage you look into our back 80 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:35,000 catalogue with with that how. So, we're here at Gartner, I am 81 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:39,600 Summit. 2022 in Las Vegas. Jim said, sad to be done. 82 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:42,100 I feel like I'm more, like, relieved that it's over. 83 00:04:43,700 --> 00:04:44,900 How is the conference been for you? 84 00:04:46,100 --> 00:04:49,700 For me, this was a very good assistance of a God. 85 00:04:50,100 --> 00:04:56,400 Yeah, the last one I attended was in 2019 and it was good but 86 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:59,700 this one was better. I think that maybe we're two 87 00:04:59,700 --> 00:05:03,000 years interleaving or like lots of other details which I cannot 88 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:07,800 share but it's Vegas after all. But there it was good. 89 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:12,600 Like I came here specifically because I was lucky that I was 90 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:15,100 able to participate to a number of conferences. 91 00:05:15,100 --> 00:05:18,900 Similar few But all of us conferences, apart from are say 92 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:23,500 they were all very technical. And so I felt this that's to be 93 00:05:23,500 --> 00:05:28,600 farther toward what happens on the wire and like details that 94 00:05:28,700 --> 00:05:33,300 as blue colors, pay attention to and a big part of my job is to 95 00:05:33,300 --> 00:05:38,600 advise my feature teams and I felt I needed a full immersion 96 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:43,700 with Buyers people that to think about getting the job done, 97 00:05:43,700 --> 00:05:49,100 rather than how orbit. I think in medium to longer time 98 00:05:49,100 --> 00:05:51,400 Horizons running than the Tactical. 99 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:54,800 Yeah, I need to do X and on that respect. 100 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:58,000 It really delivered. I'm lucky that I'm fairly 101 00:05:58,300 --> 00:06:00,600 recognizable like longer here, long ago. 102 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:05,200 So long chin everything long and people like, I'm not try to stop 103 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:11,100 me miles, and I just had so many impromptu conversations, which 104 00:06:11,300 --> 00:06:15,200 delivered exactly on this. And I'm also very lucky, but I 105 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:17,000 know what? Number of enemies. 106 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:21,300 And so, apart from their 101 switch, we had scheduled as part 107 00:06:21,300 --> 00:06:24,300 of a conference adjust that again in number of impromptu 108 00:06:24,300 --> 00:06:28,100 talks with Felix with a henrique where with Eric. 109 00:06:28,300 --> 00:06:31,900 So those were really good like was guys are super insightful 110 00:06:31,900 --> 00:06:34,800 and it's a privilege to have a chance to speak with that. 111 00:06:35,100 --> 00:06:38,500 And finally, these will be familiar with every conference 112 00:06:38,500 --> 00:06:41,000 goers. You have a chance to catch up 113 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:43,900 with your colleagues colleagues. Which sure. 114 00:06:43,900 --> 00:06:48,300 Now they are in the zoo. Zoom error and so we are used to 115 00:06:48,300 --> 00:06:53,000 interact in remote, but having your legs, under the same table 116 00:06:53,100 --> 00:06:55,700 is an entirely different level of Engagement. 117 00:06:55,700 --> 00:07:00,100 And I very much enjoy that, it has been very cool if the 118 00:07:00,100 --> 00:07:02,700 hallway conversations reconnecting with people. 119 00:07:02,700 --> 00:07:07,200 You maybe haven't seen in person for two years, ten years, 120 00:07:07,700 --> 00:07:09,300 whatever it may be. That sort of thing. 121 00:07:09,300 --> 00:07:11,600 I mean Jim and I've been doing this thing for three years now, 122 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:14,500 the podcast and we work together all the time, but we don't 123 00:07:14,500 --> 00:07:17,500 actually see each other. Real world all that often 124 00:07:17,500 --> 00:07:18,700 especially over the last couple of years. 125 00:07:18,700 --> 00:07:21,600 It is it is very cool to like have that camaraderie. 126 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:24,300 I almost felt like it was almost like a little bit of a 127 00:07:24,300 --> 00:07:29,000 celebration of kind of people. I saw you on the street at RSA, 128 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:30,800 we were probably both going different directions and 129 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:32,600 different, you know, things and stuff like that. 130 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:35,100 But I also felt our essay was a little bit of something like 131 00:07:35,100 --> 00:07:39,200 that to where it was like, okay, you know, we're back that sort 132 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:41,500 of that feeling like okay, we're kind of under the same roof. 133 00:07:41,500 --> 00:07:44,200 Again, we're seeing people in person and I felt like this 134 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:46,400 conference as well had the same type of ideas. 135 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:49,600 I was I this is something I point out. 136 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:52,000 I think last week when we were kind of getting ready for the 137 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:57,000 podcast, was the Keynotes seem to be focused, not on 138 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:00,000 technology, or the market or anything like that. 139 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:03,100 It was focused on a lot of human-centric things 140 00:08:03,300 --> 00:08:07,800 storytelling, you know, communication and taking into 141 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:09,300 account other people's perspectives. 142 00:08:09,300 --> 00:08:11,400 And what are the things that have been happening throughout 143 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:12,800 the year? You know, the last couple of 144 00:08:12,808 --> 00:08:16,300 years, you know, from from a health perspective Are there any 145 00:08:16,300 --> 00:08:20,500 things that surprised you from a conference standpoint was like, 146 00:08:20,500 --> 00:08:23,300 oh, that's interesting. I wasn't expecting that or 147 00:08:24,100 --> 00:08:26,700 things along those lines, maybe hallway conversations or other 148 00:08:26,700 --> 00:08:27,800 interactions. You might have had. 149 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:31,700 I stood there are two main things. 150 00:08:31,700 --> 00:08:36,700 That, that surprised me and perhaps they shouldn't have, but 151 00:08:36,700 --> 00:08:42,299 they didn't one was a, the session on the, on the hype 152 00:08:42,299 --> 00:08:48,200 cycle from Felix and Felix. X is an excellent speaker and a 153 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:56,200 great analyst but I was somewhat surprised by how matter of fact 154 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:58,900 he was when he described some of those things. 155 00:08:58,900 --> 00:09:02,400 Like I mean they have to cycle have so many things to talk 156 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:06,100 about and the time is short and he has a to take into account 157 00:09:06,100 --> 00:09:07,400 that some people aren't familiar. 158 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:10,000 So there is this little introduction to what it is. 159 00:09:10,100 --> 00:09:13,000 So he didn't have a lot of time left for every item. 160 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:18,900 But in general, he He was very, very direct and I really 161 00:09:18,900 --> 00:09:22,200 appreciated that and think that so many people look at the 162 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:25,900 Garter for guidance, and that was good. 163 00:09:25,900 --> 00:09:27,500 Okay. It was really good. 164 00:09:27,500 --> 00:09:30,100 Again, it's not that I was expecting it to be bad. 165 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:33,800 I just didn't expect it to be so direct which was great. 166 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:38,800 And the other thing that I really liked, so it's fries 167 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:41,500 model like a marveled rather than a surprise. 168 00:09:41,900 --> 00:09:45,600 It was a session yesterday from the attic. 169 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:52,400 About the identity fabric. The basic idea is that there are 170 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:57,300 you can think of like a maturity model between Vector connects 171 00:09:57,300 --> 00:10:00,000 via traditional. I am with what we have been 172 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:05,400 calling modern identity and basically he interpolated to 173 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:10,000 what's next and he has this concept of identity fabric which 174 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:12,400 is basically a collection of capabilities into is. 175 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,500 It isn't really a product and the way in which the character 176 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:19,900 This was capabilities just hit it on the head for me, like, it 177 00:10:19,900 --> 00:10:24,200 was a it was a very good way of describing what we should 178 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:27,000 expect. Like what we need to do for 179 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:30,800 moving to the next level and that was a vet was very good. 180 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:34,400 I plan to explore that aspect father. 181 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:38,800 I think when I heard terms like identity fabric I get concerned 182 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:44,900 around okay zero trusts itd are all these other things is like 183 00:10:44,900 --> 00:10:47,500 every product. Chuck seems to like, glom onto 184 00:10:47,500 --> 00:10:51,900 whatever the term du jour is, you know, I see products like oh 185 00:10:51,900 --> 00:10:54,100 we are the zero. Trust blah blah blah. 186 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:57,800 We are the you be a blah, blah blah. 187 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:01,100 And I see things like that and it's like I'd any fabric. 188 00:11:01,100 --> 00:11:04,100 I've been hearing it for years and I'm concerned that at some 189 00:11:04,100 --> 00:11:07,700 point we're going to see we are the identity fabric blah blah 190 00:11:07,700 --> 00:11:10,000 blah. I think you can best do that. 191 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:13,800 They could happen. Unfortunately, a marketing 192 00:11:15,100 --> 00:11:18,200 event. Ali, Khan's, everything and even 193 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:23,600 Concepts that have technical Mary will be strained and 194 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:28,800 tortured and their arms Twisted to fit a particular, go to 195 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:31,700 market, because that's the way it is. 196 00:11:31,700 --> 00:11:37,800 Like capitalism rewards, people could sell and so people sell, I 197 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:41,900 think it's on us. The more fantasy technical 198 00:11:41,900 --> 00:11:48,400 people to try to keep our Our our own marketing's honest. 199 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:51,800 And she's like, I think everyone tries to do that. 200 00:11:52,100 --> 00:11:56,700 But the other is also when we engage on actual projects to 201 00:11:56,700 --> 00:12:02,900 make sure that we do use those Concepts Beyond hype that when 202 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:05,800 we are working with our customers or with people that 203 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:10,300 aren't as deep as us that we help guide them through like 204 00:12:10,300 --> 00:12:12,100 we've objective things like this. 205 00:12:12,100 --> 00:12:15,400 Think about zero trust reminds me like a bit of a growth 206 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:18,700 mindset. Sestero like a Visa mandala 207 00:12:18,700 --> 00:12:23,200 keywords that people use for and, and very often as just 208 00:12:23,700 --> 00:12:26,100 abuse. And the way to diffuse that is 209 00:12:26,100 --> 00:12:29,700 to just break down into fundamental components. 210 00:12:29,700 --> 00:12:34,500 What makes something zero trust and then say, okay, let's test 211 00:12:34,500 --> 00:12:36,900 this thing with you just said, is it really easier trust? 212 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:41,000 And you can't always afford that because Vector requires a high 213 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:44,200 bandwidth conversation in a lot of people just go with short 214 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:49,400 hands, because We are just doing things on passing, but maybe 215 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:52,400 it's okay that I could think of like a how people of torture 216 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:58,700 also things like a seesaw or Federation, like sometimes a in 217 00:12:58,700 --> 00:13:00,700 discussions, you just have to let it go. 218 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:02,300 You're like you have to choose your bottle. 219 00:13:02,300 --> 00:13:05,800 So the say that there is a cure, it's probably going to be the 220 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:07,800 same. I've only so much energy. 221 00:13:08,500 --> 00:13:10,400 Is that what is that about? I want to fight. 222 00:13:10,500 --> 00:13:13,700 Yeah, exactly. So let's talk. 223 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:16,400 Let's see, we're kind of there. Two different things I want to 224 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:18,500 get to. For those who don't know though 225 00:13:18,500 --> 00:13:22,400 you are a fellow podcaster, we have the distinction of you 226 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:25,900 actually announced your podcast a couple years ago on our show, 227 00:13:26,100 --> 00:13:28,000 identity unlocks. And for those who haven't heard 228 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:31,600 it is fantastic, you get to hear Vittorio having conversations 229 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:35,300 around. Really the mountainous grab this 230 00:13:35,300 --> 00:13:40,400 like the meat of identity, the specs, the standards that are 231 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:42,500 being put out there that are so important to the 232 00:13:42,500 --> 00:13:45,500 interoperability of so many different identity things. 233 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:48,400 Things I'm probably butchering how you would probably explain 234 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:50,500 to someone else. So tell us about it. 235 00:13:50,500 --> 00:13:52,100 I unlocked certainly go and catch. 236 00:13:52,100 --> 00:13:54,500 It will have a link in the show notes so go check it, it's 237 00:13:54,500 --> 00:13:56,100 everywhere. But how is that? 238 00:13:56,100 --> 00:14:00,300 Any locked doing yeah. Far too kind and you gave a 239 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:03,500 very, very good description on the show. 240 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:10,400 Like, the idea is largely the fact that standards have such 241 00:14:11,100 --> 00:14:15,500 impact on so many things in the context of a day. 242 00:14:15,700 --> 00:14:20,800 He and Beyond and at the same time they are just like these 243 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:24,100 are hard things to deal with people very often deals with 244 00:14:24,100 --> 00:14:28,100 them at their wrong layer. Like they think that we have to 245 00:14:28,100 --> 00:14:31,200 re-implement stuff from scratch. And so we need to read the spec 246 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:35,200 as opposed to knowing what the particular spec unlocks in terms 247 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:38,700 of scenario and then just using tools like sdks and services 248 00:14:38,700 --> 00:14:41,200 that will take care of the low-level stuff. 249 00:14:41,500 --> 00:14:44,700 And the other thing is that they standards like the 250 00:14:44,708 --> 00:14:50,500 specification, Is typically are very obscure and also very 251 00:14:50,500 --> 00:14:54,600 essential like, every sentence is debated by experts for 252 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:59,500 literally years. And so the end result is precise 253 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:03,200 but it's a bit like the Ikea instructions in which if you 254 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:06,000 don't follow them. Exactly to the letter you'll end 255 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:08,800 up with something that rickety and some extra pieces saying 256 00:15:09,100 --> 00:15:13,200 what did I forget? So the thing is that the so much 257 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:18,100 goodness so much knowledge A part of the process of building 258 00:15:18,100 --> 00:15:20,700 standards and that gets completely lost. 259 00:15:20,700 --> 00:15:22,800 If you are not part of the discussion. 260 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:26,800 So the idea behind this show, which we don't always manage, 261 00:15:26,900 --> 00:15:31,500 but we try is it to take the experts, like the offer spec, 262 00:15:31,500 --> 00:15:35,200 which share of the working group and talk with that the same way, 263 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:38,900 which we would talk at the bar here. 264 00:15:38,900 --> 00:15:41,900 At the end of the day, talking about what happened, what we 265 00:15:41,900 --> 00:15:45,500 found interesting. And with us, we are very someone 266 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:50,800 He's not an expert and so we know that we needed to not use 267 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:54,700 too much jargon and somehow go to the real meat to the value 268 00:15:54,700 --> 00:15:58,800 proposition running than the how more of like a y and the 269 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:02,200 context. And so we try to do is we try to 270 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:05,500 democratize. The substantially was specs in 271 00:16:05,500 --> 00:16:08,900 front of people about what they what is their significance. 272 00:16:08,900 --> 00:16:13,700 Like, for example, we use a better tokens everywhere and we 273 00:16:13,700 --> 00:16:19,000 covered these New ways of securing tokens, you don't need 274 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:20,700 to know the details of how it happens. 275 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:23,400 But you need to know that now where is this capability? 276 00:16:23,700 --> 00:16:28,300 That allows you to have more secure interactions and a bit of 277 00:16:28,300 --> 00:16:31,300 a context of like how this thing came to be in what situations 278 00:16:31,300 --> 00:16:33,400 you can use it in what situation you can't. 279 00:16:33,500 --> 00:16:37,500 So we try to do this and it's a privilege. 280 00:16:37,500 --> 00:16:41,900 It's a privilege because I speak with such incredibly smart 281 00:16:41,900 --> 00:16:46,100 people which are very generous with their time and I think it's 282 00:16:46,100 --> 00:16:48,600 going really well, let's say that there was expecting these 283 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:52,800 to be ultra Niche and he said the numbers are surprisingly 284 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:55,000 good. Like we have a lot of people 285 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:58,400 listening to this thing and it generates a lot of good 286 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:00,100 discussions. Good questions. 287 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:04,700 It helps the people that are developing or standards to get 288 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:08,500 the attention they deserve which often they get lost in the 289 00:17:08,500 --> 00:17:10,700 noise. So it's going really well. 290 00:17:11,500 --> 00:17:14,300 Yeah, fattori. I totally agree that people that 291 00:17:14,300 --> 00:17:17,599 you're getting on the shores, For smart, sometimes I listen to 292 00:17:17,599 --> 00:17:22,700 it just to try to get myself. Smarter, what I'm wondering is 293 00:17:22,700 --> 00:17:28,300 for the, I am practitioners or maybe they don't need that level 294 00:17:28,300 --> 00:17:31,400 of detail. If you kind of pick a few of the 295 00:17:31,700 --> 00:17:37,200 major topics that are happening in the, you know, in this space 296 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:41,900 of Standards Evolution, maybe top two or three and just kind 297 00:17:41,900 --> 00:17:45,200 of tell us what thing, where we're at with each one of those 298 00:17:46,300 --> 00:17:49,100 Sure. Absolutely and fought at least 299 00:17:49,100 --> 00:17:52,000 some of those. We actually have also episodes. 300 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:56,000 So if people want to double click, you can go there at see 301 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:58,900 that. The one Earth is top of mind for 302 00:17:58,900 --> 00:18:05,300 me, is 5.0, Multi-Device credentials, which is the 303 00:18:05,300 --> 00:18:09,000 scientific name of a more common name, passkeys. 304 00:18:09,500 --> 00:18:15,700 And in a nutshell, that's in a new type of credential, which 305 00:18:15,900 --> 00:18:20,200 Sure takes, if you're familiar with the platform of indicators, 306 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:24,700 in a fight or two, we're both on, which are basically using 307 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:26,900 the secure elements on your devices. 308 00:18:26,900 --> 00:18:31,700 So the TPM on your laptop or like this viewer Enclave on your 309 00:18:31,700 --> 00:18:36,400 phone and basically use that to authenticate using public key 310 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:41,700 cryptography unlocked by the Biometrics of your device and it 311 00:18:41,700 --> 00:18:45,600 takes this idea, which was an extraordinary achievement. 312 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:50,900 The file Alliance but that was mostly adopted by either 313 00:18:50,900 --> 00:18:54,900 administrators or key were information workers. 314 00:18:54,900 --> 00:18:59,300 So not by the consumer because everything being tied to the 315 00:18:59,300 --> 00:19:04,000 device, makes it complicated for enrolling multiple devices or if 316 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:07,400 you lose your device, you don't know how to record it. 317 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:11,600 So obvious was, always mostly either for administrators or a 318 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:15,200 second Factor because you need the first Factor if you need to 319 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:18,200 retrieve. And finally, I'm getting to 320 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:20,400 watch. Passkeys, our past is basically 321 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:25,900 are taking the same mechanism but allowing the keys to Rome, 322 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:29,600 let's say that what has the traditional platform of 323 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:32,100 indicators. Tie the key to that particular 324 00:19:32,100 --> 00:19:35,200 device by Design. That's gonna diminish traitors 325 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:38,000 might want to say, I want to know it's coming from that 326 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:41,600 device because that device as my security policies on it. 327 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:45,700 And so, they, it it has its its own part. 328 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:47,400 Opposites. But at the same time, it made it 329 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:51,200 difficult for consumers and so vendors, like apple, Google and 330 00:19:51,208 --> 00:19:55,800 Microsoft had this idea of making this finger wrong. 331 00:19:56,200 --> 00:20:00,400 And so what happens is that now and just it today literally we 332 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:05,500 published a blog post on the other Ciro blog and wherever we 333 00:20:05,500 --> 00:20:07,500 also have a little demo of our integration. 334 00:20:08,300 --> 00:20:10,800 What happens is the vector? If you are in a particular 335 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:14,800 ecosystem, say the Apple ecosystem and a you got your Mac 336 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:19,200 which day you Ready, do if you install Ventura, you go on a 337 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:22,100 website. Let's support spassky's you can 338 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:26,200 and run in the same way in which were running before with a 339 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:28,700 platform of indicator. In fact, if you look on the wire 340 00:20:28,700 --> 00:20:31,200 it's almost exactly the same that could be called, the 341 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:36,100 already have will work and you can sign up to your website, 342 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:39,700 basically creating a local key. And then as soon as you do, that 343 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:44,300 your iCloud will start roaming the skin on your other devices 344 00:20:44,500 --> 00:20:49,200 and then you can pick up your IPhone with iOS 16 land on the 345 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:52,600 same website and as soon as you get on the website that I can, 346 00:20:52,700 --> 00:20:55,400 one of the really interesting things of these is that there 347 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:59,000 are so many Primitives that make the integration of this 348 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:02,300 capability. Very, very easy in terms of the 349 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:06,100 user perspective. So if you would just stop on the 350 00:21:06,100 --> 00:21:11,000 username field and if your website use the new apis that 351 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:16,200 are u.s. offers this finger sees that there is a passkey For that 352 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:18,900 particular domains and then just offers you a little pop up 353 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:22,500 saying, hey, even if it's very first time that you land on that 354 00:21:22,500 --> 00:21:25,700 website on that device, you already have anything available, 355 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:30,000 you just put your thumb or do your face ID and you are sadly 356 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:33,500 very dangerous Real Game Changer in terms of getting away from 357 00:21:33,500 --> 00:21:35,300 the password, right? That's what I was just thinking 358 00:21:35,300 --> 00:21:38,200 that if that's the word I was literally going to say was the 359 00:21:38,500 --> 00:21:42,000 is roaming, is the game changer here because this concept 360 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,800 already exists, but is very limited being able to move Of 361 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,500 from device devices. I think that that's the part 362 00:21:48,500 --> 00:21:51,500 that's going to really take off. That's absolutely, right. 363 00:21:51,500 --> 00:21:55,800 I think you're absolutely right. And this is above convenience 364 00:21:55,800 --> 00:22:01,900 for Multi-Device, but to me, the main, the main thing is the 365 00:22:01,900 --> 00:22:06,200 recovery because again, today, if you use platform 366 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:10,300 authenticators, you can't just use that as one factor. 367 00:22:10,300 --> 00:22:12,900 The only thing you do for authenticating, then there is 368 00:22:12,900 --> 00:22:15,700 always with discussion is in its both. 369 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:20,200 You have in something you are or something, you know, because it 370 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:23,600 has to be a key with leaves on your device and the way in which 371 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:28,000 unlock the key is either by knowledge the pin or biometric. 372 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:35,500 So one might say it's to say it is multi Factor but various 373 00:22:35,500 --> 00:22:38,600 controversy about like you need to use attestation in order to 374 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:39,900 know that these actually happened. 375 00:22:39,900 --> 00:22:44,000 So let's pretend it's just one Factory or although it's 376 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:47,800 actually too. But the thing is that because of 377 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:50,400 that and because of the fact that this side of the device, if 378 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:54,500 you lose what it was, if you buy new device, there is nothing you 379 00:22:54,500 --> 00:22:58,600 can do to recover your access to a website instead of now that 380 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:02,000 this thing is back to the cloud. Basically, in that scenario, 381 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:08,200 apple is the party responsible to help you do a recovery or 382 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:11,500 like you buy your device and you just restore everything just 383 00:23:11,500 --> 00:23:13,400 like today. When you buy a new iPhone, you 384 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:18,200 put them side-by-side and The just transfers everything, so 385 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:23,400 that's powerful and it Game Changer and a big Improvement. 386 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,000 If your starting point is passwords. 387 00:23:26,300 --> 00:23:30,400 Now, the controversy here is that, if your starting point is 388 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,500 platform authenticators, then it's kind of like a step 389 00:23:33,500 --> 00:23:39,800 backward because a now you can no longer prove that that 390 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,100 particular authentication is coming from that particular 391 00:23:42,100 --> 00:23:45,600 device or you are no longer in control. 392 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:48,700 The way in which account recovery is done. 393 00:23:49,100 --> 00:23:52,100 So if you are an Enterprise or if you have like a federal 394 00:23:52,100 --> 00:23:56,700 government, first things might not be good things. 395 00:23:56,700 --> 00:24:00,400 In fact that I could very are lots of discussions about it and 396 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:04,200 the thing is this is going to be very vendor dependent. 397 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,000 Let's say that we were saying standards like a standard part 398 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:12,600 is multi multi device credential on the fighting side but then 399 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,600 where is how the values platform? 400 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:17,300 Is choose to implement this stuff. 401 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,700 Anyway, particular case of Apple, they decided that once 402 00:24:20,700 --> 00:24:24,200 they will release the new virtual server operating 403 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:27,100 systems, which is just about to happen here. 404 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:32,100 Then we will no longer make it possible to create Keys bound to 405 00:24:32,100 --> 00:24:37,200 advice. So Passkeys will basically 406 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,900 everything will be a passkey even if you have a key that is 407 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,800 on that one device and did a ROM yet, you will have a bit. 408 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,700 When you receive a key that says, yeah, I am back up a ball 409 00:24:48,700 --> 00:24:52,300 device credential, and I haven't been wrong yet. 410 00:24:52,500 --> 00:24:56,900 So, you have some chance of checking, but the thing is that 411 00:24:56,900 --> 00:24:59,500 you can't prevent this from happening, let's say that the 412 00:24:59,500 --> 00:25:03,100 true. Now I received this thing and I 413 00:25:03,100 --> 00:25:06,800 know that it hasn't Don't. But one second later, this thing 414 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:10,300 might wrong or apple has this feature in, which you can 415 00:25:10,700 --> 00:25:15,000 airdrop credentials, just like you do with passwords today and 416 00:25:15,100 --> 00:25:19,000 I remember seeing like WWDC happened at the same time as 417 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:22,600 their say and we were like a couple of black watch parties. 418 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,100 People like watching these things happening and I've seen 419 00:25:25,100 --> 00:25:28,100 people in horror because that very say audience is clearly 420 00:25:28,100 --> 00:25:33,300 actually what he did, what is it just like a haircut rough inner 421 00:25:33,300 --> 00:25:35,400 and private key. He basically to a different 422 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,900 device. So again I'm a if you read that 423 00:25:38,900 --> 00:25:43,000 blog post with I mentioned which I tend you see that the our 424 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,100 position is is a fantastic Game Changer. 425 00:25:46,300 --> 00:25:51,300 In our war with two passwords for consumers but so much 426 00:25:51,300 --> 00:25:57,200 remains to be figured out on the 14 side, so good news but with 427 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:02,500 moderation with once so what else and of course I want you to 428 00:26:02,500 --> 00:26:06,500 hit on the digital drivers Son says, one of the items on your 429 00:26:06,500 --> 00:26:08,000 list. Yes. 430 00:26:08,100 --> 00:26:10,900 So let's make sure that we don't, we don't lose that. 431 00:26:11,900 --> 00:26:15,500 The mobile driving license is also something which is 432 00:26:15,500 --> 00:26:20,800 happening in this space is being driven by ISO, which is a bit 433 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:24,700 less familiar for us in the identity space and to myself as 434 00:26:24,700 --> 00:26:27,600 well. Like I am participating as a 435 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:32,700 liaison on behalf of opportunity like the openid connect 436 00:26:32,700 --> 00:26:38,000 Foundation is Working with them. And in particular, for example, 437 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:41,300 Christina yes, udah from Microsoft is one of the main 438 00:26:41,300 --> 00:26:44,300 people that is one thing with that and basically they're 439 00:26:44,300 --> 00:26:50,900 trying to make the use case of a mobile driving license, used on 440 00:26:50,900 --> 00:26:56,100 the web rather than impaction with devices to be done with the 441 00:26:56,100 --> 00:27:00,700 experience that many years of about you connect brings but 442 00:27:00,700 --> 00:27:03,500 just to summarize what this thing is this thing is a 443 00:27:04,300 --> 00:27:08,700 Different of you are joining license in a format that can be 444 00:27:08,700 --> 00:27:13,000 used with digital devices. So IG digitalization of your 445 00:27:13,300 --> 00:27:19,300 driving license and a Visa is defined as c bar, which is like 446 00:27:19,300 --> 00:27:24,400 a digital digital Json set. The batter in not digital, 447 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:30,700 sorry, binary, binary format, which contains the least of your 448 00:27:30,700 --> 00:27:34,700 claims say and then it has a mechanism, which ties Sighs was 449 00:27:34,700 --> 00:27:38,900 claims to one key which is only yours and only belongs to your 450 00:27:38,900 --> 00:27:43,300 device. And so whenever you use these 451 00:27:43,500 --> 00:27:46,700 with driving license, you can basically use the data that you 452 00:27:46,700 --> 00:27:50,600 have on your device and disclose was proving that you are the one 453 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:54,200 disclosing it because you use your local key without the need 454 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,500 to go to any Central Authority, like if you'd be doing these 455 00:27:57,500 --> 00:28:00,300 with ID token. So let's say, then every time 456 00:28:00,300 --> 00:28:03,900 you have to present your driving license for some reason, you'd 457 00:28:03,900 --> 00:28:07,200 have to Back to the provider and the provider with issue stuff 458 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,300 just in time. And then the provider would know 459 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,300 to whom you're going to disclose his finger. 460 00:28:13,300 --> 00:28:18,200 And when and in what terms and instead by using this mechanism, 461 00:28:18,300 --> 00:28:22,400 which is conceptually the same as the one is verifiable 462 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,600 credential, which is another of the things which is being talked 463 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:27,900 a lot about. But when people say that 50 464 00:28:27,900 --> 00:28:31,900 credential, they often think about things, like the w3c 465 00:28:31,900 --> 00:28:35,200 standard, which is a specific standard With a specific 466 00:28:35,700 --> 00:28:39,800 structure and the mobile driving license is similar but not 467 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:43,400 exactly the same. What we concept is the same and 468 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:48,800 so it is a very powerful privacy-preserving capability. 469 00:28:49,500 --> 00:28:52,000 There are challenges. Let's say that the in order to 470 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,500 do a trick that I just described you need a client software. 471 00:28:56,100 --> 00:28:59,900 Like if you just do this with an ID token, you just do a couple 472 00:28:59,900 --> 00:29:03,700 of HTTP redirects and you'd be done instantly not in here. 473 00:29:03,700 --> 00:29:08,000 Now, Need one it and follow it. Right? 474 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,800 Where scan it. Seemed I quote because a while 475 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:14,300 it is such an overloaded term recently, but basically you need 476 00:29:14,300 --> 00:29:18,600 a piece of software that runs on your device, which is capable of 477 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:22,900 requesting, but it's things. Those are like, verifiable 478 00:29:22,900 --> 00:29:25,400 credentials /. Mobile, driving license. 479 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:30,100 Save it in place. So you keep it stored protected, 480 00:29:30,100 --> 00:29:35,000 and whenever you need to present it, You do with three curved, 481 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:39,000 selecting the subset of things that you wanted to disclose, and 482 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,700 use the key to prove that it's actually coming from you. 483 00:29:43,300 --> 00:29:47,000 And then, once in a recipient receive this think, there are 484 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,100 two parts in which you have to verify that this thing is 485 00:29:50,100 --> 00:29:54,700 actually coming from you, so they need to check the signature 486 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,900 and they're typically the signature as a reference inside 487 00:29:59,100 --> 00:30:02,900 the part which is sign it from your with claims that the ties 488 00:30:02,900 --> 00:30:04,100 was the things together. I know. 489 00:30:04,300 --> 00:30:07,900 I am getting in the Weeds now but unfortunately, some of these 490 00:30:07,900 --> 00:30:11,900 things are just like advanced level if we were able to apply. 491 00:30:11,900 --> 00:30:14,700 Well, let's just say that you need to have active software, 492 00:30:14,700 --> 00:30:17,700 which runs on your device. The software is absolutely 493 00:30:17,700 --> 00:30:22,100 critical, and it's not there. Like mobile driving glasses is 494 00:30:22,100 --> 00:30:25,700 not the only reason for which has people might want to have 495 00:30:25,700 --> 00:30:29,000 these software in there, which is why we had so many different 496 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:33,300 definitions of wallets which are largely interoperable and non 497 00:30:33,300 --> 00:30:36,100 interoperability. This time and so they're like 498 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:40,000 they're in number of nascent groups or a number of electoral 499 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,900 alliance between companies that are trying to make things 500 00:30:42,900 --> 00:30:45,800 interoperable. But at the same time, a lot of 501 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:50,600 the issuer's of us Wings want to retain a high level of control. 502 00:30:50,900 --> 00:30:53,800 And so you can expect that some of those credentials. 503 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:57,900 Maybe not my mobile driving license, but some of that ilk 504 00:30:58,100 --> 00:30:59,900 will give you also the application. 505 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,700 So basically it's like having a wallet for every card you have. 506 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:05,900 Didn't anyone if we multiple cards? 507 00:31:06,100 --> 00:31:10,100 So we see that early days we need to see what happens but 508 00:31:10,100 --> 00:31:12,600 like a lot of things are happening in this space and we 509 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:16,100 spray that last point you made makes me think I'm going to make 510 00:31:16,100 --> 00:31:18,800 a statement in which is from everything you just described. 511 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:24,000 It doesn't sound like the mobile driver's license is going to be 512 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,500 following decentralized ID. In other words putting it on the 513 00:31:27,500 --> 00:31:30,700 blockchain. Is that right? 514 00:31:30,700 --> 00:31:38,500 Is that Not the direction that things are going so is far as I 515 00:31:38,508 --> 00:31:43,900 know, there is no need for anything decentralize. 516 00:31:43,900 --> 00:31:47,100 This simply are you dissing blockchain just kill it. 517 00:31:47,100 --> 00:31:54,500 But if this is the case, if this if it's not going to happen for 518 00:31:54,500 --> 00:31:56,900 digital driver's license, where's it going to happen? 519 00:31:57,500 --> 00:32:01,900 He said landmine aware that I very rarely chooses to venture. 520 00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:06,600 And this isn't going to be an exception. 521 00:32:06,900 --> 00:32:10,800 So I'm gonna give you a very non-committal, very high-level 522 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,000 answer. But in particular, in this 523 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:17,700 particular case, this is one of those cases where you have an 524 00:32:17,700 --> 00:32:23,900 authority, which is the department of driving licenses 525 00:32:23,900 --> 00:32:28,100 or which is offered it--i've about whether you can drive or 526 00:32:28,100 --> 00:32:32,300 not and that has been responsible to verify Your 527 00:32:32,300 --> 00:32:35,300 identity. And it's actually self-defining 528 00:32:35,300 --> 00:32:40,500 that when they usually think. So, to me, having the 529 00:32:40,500 --> 00:32:45,100 identifier, or like the key material that you use for 530 00:32:45,100 --> 00:32:48,500 protecting presentations of the sink wouldn't buy you much, 531 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:52,000 because sure you'd have your identifier that is entirely 532 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:55,600 under your control, but that would the only protect the 533 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:57,900 presentation in which is you show singing. 534 00:32:57,900 --> 00:33:01,900 Yeah, I am the legitimate owner of this thing. 535 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:05,400 All that lack of these identifiers but if for some 536 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:10,500 reason they catch you driving High and the revoke your driving 537 00:33:10,500 --> 00:33:14,700 license. And so the inner part of the end 538 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:18,900 of the presentation, which is the one that says yes Jim can 539 00:33:18,900 --> 00:33:23,800 drive and he's over 21, it's no longer valid then having your 540 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:27,300 identifiers to check out won't help you. 541 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:30,800 Like if you were presenting with finger because you were banking 542 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:35,700 on the or forage or You sure of his attributes, then it won't 543 00:33:35,700 --> 00:33:38,900 pay you much and internal infrastructure. 544 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,700 It's non-trivial to choose what use when we're and similar. 545 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:48,000 And and that's just on the holder side. 546 00:33:48,300 --> 00:33:52,400 Then on the very Fireside, things got even more fun because 547 00:33:53,100 --> 00:33:56,500 in a traditional scenario in which you'd ever like you order. 548 00:33:56,500 --> 00:34:00,000 ID tokenism mentioned earlier, what would happen is that the 549 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:04,400 receiver would be fixed. Let's say that your provider, 550 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:09,199 the issuer knows the audience to which you are sending this thing 551 00:34:09,199 --> 00:34:13,199 too. And so in the in Via Our 552 00:34:13,199 --> 00:34:18,000 receiver would be in a trust relationship with issue. 553 00:34:18,100 --> 00:34:20,400 Let's say that the moment in which to establish your 554 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,300 relationship, your choir with keys that you need to use for 555 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,199 verifying the, the signature, and all of that stuff. 556 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:31,600 Now if his word in which you receive your credential on your 557 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:36,199 device, and this credential is not bound to any particular 558 00:34:37,100 --> 00:34:39,400 verifier, you can spend it with anyone. 559 00:34:40,300 --> 00:34:44,000 The moment in which you sent your the URL presentation, the 560 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:49,199 verifier needed to take this presentation and verify that the 561 00:34:49,199 --> 00:34:51,699 content actually comes from that particular issue. 562 00:34:52,300 --> 00:34:56,300 And it's not obvious how to do that, because I guess who's 563 00:34:56,300 --> 00:34:59,200 going to issue this thing is we're going to be like one giant 564 00:34:59,300 --> 00:35:03,100 ether for everyone. Already going to have every 565 00:35:03,100 --> 00:35:05,000 local department of driving glasses. 566 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:08,700 Every County that issues is something and then, are we going 567 00:35:08,700 --> 00:35:11,700 to have all the different Is are an echo. 568 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:16,000 How are you gonna handle this like a Visa freedom of talking 569 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:18,600 with anyone? And everyone comes at the price? 570 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:22,500 So that being less rates it which again, you wouldn't tell 571 00:35:22,500 --> 00:35:24,800 if you would be establishing trust relationships for 572 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,600 directions and similar. And so there again, honestly, I 573 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,500 have reacted to start the digging into the details of a 574 00:35:31,500 --> 00:35:34,700 spec, but it's perfectly possible, that one solution 575 00:35:34,700 --> 00:35:39,900 might be bi Ki welcome to 2020 zoo, in which you might have 576 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:44,700 Like one CA that issues all was activities and then anyone that 577 00:35:44,700 --> 00:35:51,100 wants to accept those things. Can you say except I think 578 00:35:51,100 --> 00:35:54,000 Society, the by that Thief is certificates that come from that 579 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,000 particular CIA. Even if it works that with be, 580 00:35:57,300 --> 00:36:02,300 for the US, for one particular document and now multiply 24 by 581 00:36:02,300 --> 00:36:05,900 these documents with various countries here at Gardener have 582 00:36:05,900 --> 00:36:10,300 seen one session about decentralized, and I'm not gonna 583 00:36:10,300 --> 00:36:14,500 say almost anything about that session, but the one thing that 584 00:36:14,500 --> 00:36:17,300 I've seen, that have seen, which is a lot of entities was Visa 585 00:36:17,300 --> 00:36:21,100 the of trust Fabric, in which people are just published Sounds 586 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:25,000 on these trust Fabric and somehow people put stuff in and 587 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:28,000 out. It was very unclear to me how 588 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,000 that would actually work in practice. 589 00:36:30,300 --> 00:36:32,500 And unfortunately, it's a pattern because every time 590 00:36:32,500 --> 00:36:35,300 people talk about this particular aspect, it's kind of 591 00:36:35,300 --> 00:36:40,300 like, you know, that episode of South Park with the Underpants 592 00:36:40,300 --> 00:36:42,500 ignorance, which we are big nose. 593 00:36:42,500 --> 00:36:45,700 It's a step one. Collect Underpants, Step 2 594 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:48,400 question, mark. Step 3 profit. 595 00:36:48,700 --> 00:36:50,400 Is that good? What happened between? 596 00:36:50,500 --> 00:36:51,900 In was two steps. I don't know. 597 00:36:51,900 --> 00:36:56,200 And this time also these addition of a graph that I am 598 00:36:56,300 --> 00:36:58,600 didn't answer these question of mine. 599 00:36:58,900 --> 00:37:00,700 I think there's so many questions so let's just that's I 600 00:37:00,700 --> 00:37:04,100 think that's the issue is. There's good questions and there 601 00:37:04,100 --> 00:37:08,500 aren't any good answers yet. I think like that the identity 602 00:37:08,500 --> 00:37:11,300 Fabric or mesh that you kind of refer to just now where you can 603 00:37:11,300 --> 00:37:14,800 publish anything to it strikes, me is basically what we're doing 604 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:18,900 is we're creating a Reddit for identity where the people have 605 00:37:18,900 --> 00:37:21,100 to upvote and downvote. Oh Sources. 606 00:37:21,100 --> 00:37:25,800 Do they trust? That's a very interesting way of 607 00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:30,300 looking at it. I think that the challenge is 608 00:37:30,300 --> 00:37:35,300 that we just like with baskets the exact same technology can be 609 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:37,800 an improvement or they can be a step back. 610 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:41,500 And so the thing with you just described which is a also pretty 611 00:37:41,500 --> 00:37:44,900 popular in certain circles, like the social proofs, which wears 612 00:37:44,900 --> 00:37:47,800 a, it's a clever mechanism, which will work for some 613 00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:51,100 scenarios and would be completely unfeasible for 614 00:37:51,100 --> 00:37:54,500 others, what you trusted, 40-acre passport, right? 615 00:37:54,500 --> 00:37:56,100 Here's the first, here's, you know, here's a government 616 00:37:56,100 --> 00:37:58,200 saying, oh well, you know, somebody just decide to spin up. 617 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:01,900 Our own passport service enough people are using it and say it's 618 00:38:01,900 --> 00:38:05,000 good must be okay, right? I'm sure that's secure. 619 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:10,300 Luckily, that none of these is, is going to be a problem for 620 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,800 their driving lessons. I think with the the driving 621 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:17,400 less is being designed Again by the iso people which are among 622 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:23,400 the most rooted in hard, the have the core reality than even, 623 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:27,000 you can find. And I think I'm very, very happy 624 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:28,200 that the vast thing is happening. 625 00:38:28,300 --> 00:38:29,900 Okay. I think of it is like the 626 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:35,600 paradigmatic artifact that can embody the verifiable 627 00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,200 credentials like anything to be clear. 628 00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:43,800 But with verifiable credential concept is a great concept and 629 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:47,600 it's just that a bit like what we were saying earlier about 630 00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,700 marketing taking over, it's not only marketing. 631 00:38:50,700 --> 00:38:54,800 Like sometimes also like technical people will get really 632 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:58,800 enthusiastic like I'm not saying there is any ill-will from Side. 633 00:38:59,100 --> 00:39:04,400 But people will fall in love with an idea and push it without 634 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,800 necessarily having figured everything out and sometimes 635 00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:12,400 it's fine because that's the way which share Innovation happens. 636 00:39:12,700 --> 00:39:16,000 Some other times, if you are postulating and here, there will 637 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:20,500 be an Antigravity device. Well, if everything hinges on 638 00:39:20,500 --> 00:39:23,500 you, discovering anti-gravity, that might be complicated. 639 00:39:23,500 --> 00:39:25,600 So that is my only criticism to that. 640 00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:28,800 But again, I love about dropping by licenses. 641 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:34,100 I love the concept of the sees. What I don't love is people 642 00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:39,500 ignoring some of those details and then misleading, the people 643 00:39:39,500 --> 00:39:43,600 that are not in this space because when you sell a really 644 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:47,400 nice story, which is, it is a nice store. 645 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:51,500 Like the idea of like you are in control of your own credentials, 646 00:39:51,700 --> 00:39:55,000 you choose when to disclose and to whom and people will not know 647 00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:57,800 about it. You are a huge truly is a good 648 00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:01,300 story. But there are complications and 649 00:40:01,300 --> 00:40:05,200 all this is not the entire story because a lot of privacy issues 650 00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:09,600 happen at Sun in time but in my experience with bulk of it 651 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:14,500 happens when they observe your behavior like you could sign in 652 00:40:14,500 --> 00:40:18,600 with incredibly secure privacy-preserving system and 653 00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:22,700 then you buy something and you need to disclose where to send 654 00:40:22,700 --> 00:40:26,400 me stuff which suddenly can be correlated to lots of other 655 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:30,200 things. I can almost see like the zeros 656 00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:32,500 here live here in the integral here. 657 00:40:32,500 --> 00:40:35,800 Very solution X4, B problem. Sure, absolutely. 658 00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:39,800 But is it practical? Are you volunteering this 659 00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:41,800 detail? When you are saying, this is the 660 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:47,800 end of centralized that's very thing that if a credentials will 661 00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:51,500 unlock new scenarios that are difficult or impossible today, 662 00:40:51,900 --> 00:40:55,400 but they will not necessarily substitute some of the scenarios 663 00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:59,300 that are working well today and Said, you like it again, people 664 00:40:59,300 --> 00:41:05,600 like very bright lines, primary colors, basic shapes, and simple 665 00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:09,100 messages. And so, the idea of like this is 666 00:41:09,100 --> 00:41:13,300 the next Evolution, which entails will stop doing what we 667 00:41:13,300 --> 00:41:15,500 are doing. And we'll start using was tools. 668 00:41:15,500 --> 00:41:20,900 Instead, again is misleading because some of the things that 669 00:41:20,900 --> 00:41:25,600 are at has a privacy violations, in the concept of the in the 670 00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:29,300 context of a consumer. Our activity can actually be 671 00:41:29,300 --> 00:41:34,700 completed by Design when you are working with two suppliers and 672 00:41:34,700 --> 00:41:36,500 you do need to share some information. 673 00:41:36,500 --> 00:41:39,100 So, it's just a complicated thing. 674 00:41:39,700 --> 00:41:42,600 I think that's where the magic comes in right, when it once, it 675 00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:47,200 becomes easy enough for people to adopt or there is some sort 676 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:50,600 of cohesion between these different concepts. 677 00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:52,800 You know, I think I met, I'm not sure who said it right? 678 00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:55,400 But, you know, it's if it's magic or technology, doesn't 679 00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:57,300 matter. As long as the result write, 680 00:41:57,400 --> 00:41:59,600 Like that. So it's a 4C Clark. 681 00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:02,100 It said any sufficiently advanced. 682 00:42:02,100 --> 00:42:06,000 Technology is indistinguishable from Magic and I agree with you, 683 00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:09,200 but one thing that I would add them enough. 684 00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:15,300 So parenting is that most of us things to me are driven by use 685 00:42:15,300 --> 00:42:22,300 cases as in people have an issue in very life or something that 686 00:42:22,300 --> 00:42:27,200 they want to make progress in and it doesn't matter how sad 687 00:42:27,300 --> 00:42:29,700 Something appears on the scene and had spent with that 688 00:42:29,700 --> 00:42:34,100 particular problem. And in this space we are all 689 00:42:34,100 --> 00:42:37,600 guilty of being so close to the matter into a domain. 690 00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:41,600 That we often said, look at the principles and we say, OK, here 691 00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:45,000 I have these new principal users must be able to control 692 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:49,500 absolutely everything. And what these website the saves 693 00:42:49,500 --> 00:42:52,800 about website. Sure, and the outcome is some of 694 00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:56,800 us have cookie dialogues that you see for European websites 695 00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:02,500 that And they're only outcome is people just clicking okay to all 696 00:43:02,500 --> 00:43:05,000 because like whatever. So if you just start with the 697 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:08,800 principal and then when we rubber hits the road, things 698 00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:12,400 might not pan out the right way. And so I think that the the 699 00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:17,300 pendulum has to swing a bit closer to the use case for some 700 00:43:17,300 --> 00:43:20,600 of those things so that we can focus on what we can actually 701 00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:23,900 do, to help the people using those new technologies. 702 00:43:24,100 --> 00:43:26,500 Rather than saying, oh wow, this technology school. 703 00:43:26,700 --> 00:43:29,800 I want To use it. You're such a great point is, 704 00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:33,900 it's really important to step back and think about things and 705 00:43:33,900 --> 00:43:37,800 kind of that philosophical way, which I think is always been 706 00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:41,700 part of our industry, right? You can't just look at the 707 00:43:41,700 --> 00:43:43,700 Tactical of. How do I do things? 708 00:43:43,900 --> 00:43:45,900 You have to be thinking about the big picture. 709 00:43:46,500 --> 00:43:52,300 I read a big picture and the people that will benefit or not 710 00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:58,900 from what we are creating again. A huge fun of Suggesting to 711 00:43:59,100 --> 00:44:04,000 Engineers with Award with to spend the time on forums and see 712 00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:07,300 what people find it difficult, even if it's still at low level, 713 00:44:07,700 --> 00:44:10,700 it always gives a glimpse of what people are trying to 714 00:44:10,700 --> 00:44:15,100 achieve when you are using your tools and it's always better to 715 00:44:15,100 --> 00:44:18,200 start from it rather than starting from technology and 716 00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:22,000 then at a vadas engineer for me to what people might possibly do 717 00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:25,900 with it, sometimes you're lucky like a remember the page rank 718 00:44:25,900 --> 00:44:27,400 with Google. Okay. 719 00:44:28,100 --> 00:44:30,000 When Google started then the pagerank. 720 00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:33,700 It's that was incredibly successful, but no one knew how 721 00:44:33,700 --> 00:44:37,600 to do money out of it. And eventually they discovered 722 00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:41,700 it and I'd say, they lucked out because they didn't start with 723 00:44:41,700 --> 00:44:45,200 this idea of making money, but eventually found it. 724 00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:49,400 So, moving one level below, it's always possible to create a 725 00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:54,400 technology and by sheer chance land on the create new use case, 726 00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:57,800 I think pasta it's like we grew up, boss is very Trying to do 727 00:44:57,808 --> 00:44:59,300 something else. They invented the positive, 728 00:44:59,300 --> 00:45:03,200 that's fantastic. But those are rare events. 729 00:45:03,700 --> 00:45:07,100 It's usually envisions better. If you start from a user need, 730 00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:11,300 rather than a technology or a high horse, principal same 731 00:45:11,300 --> 00:45:13,800 applies to Identity programs at large, right? 732 00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:17,000 If know where you're trying to go and what you're trying to do. 733 00:45:17,700 --> 00:45:20,400 A lot of times just like, okay I've seen before, right? 734 00:45:20,500 --> 00:45:22,400 I would just bought this thing and that's going to solve our 735 00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:23,600 problems. But you don't really know what 736 00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:25,800 your what prime are trying to solve and then you're very 737 00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:28,800 disappointed when the I know that the investment that you 738 00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:31,000 made didn't line up with what you're trying to do. 739 00:45:31,300 --> 00:45:33,000 For me a knife. If you'd rather die, always a 740 00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:36,000 activate featured spinner, another one featured, Spinners 741 00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:41,100 were everyone and I can, yeah, why I've got a cool one. 742 00:45:41,100 --> 00:45:44,000 By the way, it's I have to as a tussle and I have and then I 743 00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:45,900 have one that has lights at the end. 744 00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:48,400 Well, I got a conference somewhere because it's like you 745 00:45:48,408 --> 00:45:49,800 said, they're just paintings were everywhere. 746 00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:53,300 They were like the swag thing back in like was it 2015 maybe 747 00:45:53,300 --> 00:45:56,100 something like that. And I was like, all right, also 748 00:45:56,100 --> 00:45:58,700 come to that one because that one that Was one I hadn't seen 749 00:45:58,700 --> 00:46:02,000 yet. Then it's all right. 750 00:46:02,100 --> 00:46:05,200 I think we've wax poetic around a number of different topics 751 00:46:06,100 --> 00:46:08,500 guitar you're always great with your time and super generous and 752 00:46:08,500 --> 00:46:12,400 super approachable which is Again part of the thing that I 753 00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:14,500 love about the identity field itself. 754 00:46:14,900 --> 00:46:18,100 But before we go I want to tell you that you have enthralled, 755 00:46:18,100 --> 00:46:23,000 the identity Nation through your Twitter and this undertaking 756 00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:27,600 that you took, when you before you even boarded the plane to 757 00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:32,600 get here, you have a Co 2 meter and we're taking readings 758 00:46:33,100 --> 00:46:38,400 throughout your journey here. First of all, again, in thrall 759 00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:40,800 does the word of use because I've been following and looking 760 00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:44,400 at your Twitter, it's at vibro net and you can see, you know, 761 00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:47,400 the different readings. First of all, how did you come 762 00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:50,100 out this idea? And then what were some of your 763 00:46:50,100 --> 00:46:56,500 findings of your research here? So I stole the idea, I am Park, 764 00:46:56,500 --> 00:47:01,400 okay? I told the person I'm still in 765 00:47:01,408 --> 00:47:07,400 here so it's ok that if I well I guess the guy did liked the post 766 00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:10,100 so I guess you have to it was. Okay. 767 00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:15,600 So I'm part of a few Facebook groups of for frequent Fliers. 768 00:47:16,100 --> 00:47:21,500 And one guy did this on, on the play energy a day like a, he had 769 00:47:21,500 --> 00:47:25,600 a meter for proper reasons not to, like, adjust for a being 770 00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:27,700 funny like I did, he is like his job. 771 00:47:27,700 --> 00:47:31,900 That is like he had a number. Of it m on board and said, well, 772 00:47:31,900 --> 00:47:33,600 I would be fine with to see what happens. 773 00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:36,400 And so I did this post, which I found super interesting and I 774 00:47:36,408 --> 00:47:39,000 said, dude, I'm going to see if his idea and I'm going to do the 775 00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:44,500 same when I go to guard Elijah. So I hit Amazon and magically in 776 00:47:44,500 --> 00:47:45,900 two days. I got this thing. 777 00:47:46,300 --> 00:47:51,700 It was like 40 bucks, just so not particularly and finest. 778 00:47:51,700 --> 00:47:55,500 Funny story after I started publishing the sweets they run 779 00:47:55,500 --> 00:47:59,200 out of it because I kept having people saying oh okay won't run. 780 00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:02,600 So they actually bought the enough of those from the 781 00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:06,500 viglink, whether provided that they run out of it, hopefully 782 00:48:06,500 --> 00:48:09,300 use like an affiliate link or some sort of referral link. 783 00:48:09,300 --> 00:48:12,600 I'm not sure I might add because that guy do have a affiliate but 784 00:48:12,700 --> 00:48:15,100 whenever I go on the website and never know everything, that's 785 00:48:15,100 --> 00:48:18,500 it, but I found it. It's really interesting because 786 00:48:19,500 --> 00:48:22,500 frankly I was surprised by the number of the things that I 787 00:48:22,500 --> 00:48:27,500 found out like in particular who burn the Uber, which I took for 788 00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:31,300 for going from my home. The Redmond to the Seattle 789 00:48:31,300 --> 00:48:35,200 Airport, I got to almost 2000 which was like the highest 790 00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:39,900 reading on the entire trip. And so what's let's establish 791 00:48:39,900 --> 00:48:43,800 because people in a familiar what is Baseline like what is a 792 00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:46,600 good number or good reading essentially? 793 00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:50,000 So I started with my first reading outside. 794 00:48:50,300 --> 00:48:55,500 They saw it was outside in the breeze and the and 400 and 400, 795 00:48:56,300 --> 00:48:59,500 which like someone said that if I would have done these in the 796 00:48:59,500 --> 00:49:02,800 cell, 90s. I would have been likely 200-400 797 00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:04,400 because like there's almost cars. 798 00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:08,600 And also, why did they do this with CO2? 799 00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:15,500 They suit you to me is in many crowded places in a proxy for 800 00:49:15,500 --> 00:49:20,600 exhalations of people. Hence potential potentially 801 00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:23,400 covid risk. Like a a came back from a 802 00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:27,000 diverse and a coffe coffee after her dodging, it for two years 803 00:49:27,008 --> 00:49:28,800 and a half. So now I'm a bit sensitive. 804 00:49:29,100 --> 00:49:32,100 I was always Stephen matter. But like really curious about 805 00:49:32,100 --> 00:49:35,900 it, it's an imperfect measure because CO2, comes not just from 806 00:49:35,900 --> 00:49:40,500 people, but like, in the Uber and convinced it was the exhaust 807 00:49:40,500 --> 00:49:44,900 or a car at was going inside the car, which is not very healthy, 808 00:49:45,100 --> 00:49:48,200 but also deck. There, the mass we face mask. 809 00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:52,800 Want help with that, but I worried anyway, the other thing 810 00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:56,400 is that you might ask still have a high level of CO2, but you 811 00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:59,600 might have a keeper filters that take away the bad stuff. 812 00:49:59,700 --> 00:50:03,100 Of and so high level of CO2 might not necessarily mean high 813 00:50:03,100 --> 00:50:06,500 levels of potential covid. Let's say but anyway, 814 00:50:06,500 --> 00:50:08,600 approximation. Also I did it for free. 815 00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:11,000 No one paid me for doing it, so, whatever. 816 00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:16,300 So that one was the interesting and and so the design is like 817 00:50:16,300 --> 00:50:21,800 around 400 and then in an Uber was like, went all the way to 818 00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:24,700 father as soon as he closed the windows. 819 00:50:24,900 --> 00:50:27,700 Okay, energy. It was like 600 or so close the 820 00:50:27,700 --> 00:50:31,300 windows started when soon. Went to do a deposit. 821 00:50:31,900 --> 00:50:35,200 And then they think that was surprised about was, how well, 822 00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:40,600 ventilated the airport was like they Lounge. 823 00:50:41,100 --> 00:50:45,200 They like the public restrooms where, like, 700 800, which is 824 00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:48,600 not great via the restroom in the lounge elitist. 825 00:50:48,700 --> 00:50:51,700 It was a much lower. It was like a below 500. 826 00:50:51,700 --> 00:50:54,800 I think the lounge was like, 500 600. 827 00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:58,300 The gate was lower than launched with the literally Breeze. 828 00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:06,200 I posted a little Video of my hair moving on and if a plane as 829 00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:10,900 you might expect, the values went up during the boarding. 830 00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:14,500 So during the boarding, if you want to wear masks, let's with 831 00:51:14,500 --> 00:51:17,900 time in which you should wear it, well, I know it's like 832 00:51:17,900 --> 00:51:20,400 people so also people can attract organizer which is good 833 00:51:21,500 --> 00:51:25,600 but then as soon as we close with your and we went up, as 834 00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:27,800 soon as we were in altitude it drops down. 835 00:51:27,900 --> 00:51:29,900 Hmm. And then once we started What 836 00:51:29,900 --> 00:51:34,400 the scent again I guess what we do something with specialization 837 00:51:34,700 --> 00:51:38,800 and it started climbing back up. So that was that was also 838 00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:42,900 interesting. And then now I am I I tried a 839 00:51:42,908 --> 00:51:44,400 chat readings during the conference. 840 00:51:44,500 --> 00:51:47,800 I didn't publish it because I didn't want a gadget freak out 841 00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:50,900 this anger. This guy now is get him out of 842 00:51:50,900 --> 00:51:53,800 here. Yeah but it was actually really 843 00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:55,600 good. Thank most of the time. 844 00:51:55,700 --> 00:51:59,600 It was like 500 600, which is a very good for anything. 845 00:51:59,700 --> 00:52:04,400 Close the place was only one particular session which was in 846 00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:09,900 it was a vendor session and it was in a smaller room with a 847 00:52:09,900 --> 00:52:15,100 weird layout, it was a very wide and very shallow and there I got 848 00:52:15,100 --> 00:52:19,000 to 900 but that was the only place, otherwise talk safer than 849 00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:22,300 being in an Uber. Oh yes, definitely safer. 850 00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:25,600 So, it was a fun project. So I think there's like a Snus 851 00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:28,700 like, seal of approval and I can picture like a little sticker 852 00:52:28,700 --> 00:52:31,800 with like, Your face on it, maybe the hair blowing in the 853 00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:35,100 wind and then like a number that's like oh you know this 854 00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:38,800 this session or this conference or this room is you know 855 00:52:38,900 --> 00:52:41,000 Vittorio approved or something like that. 856 00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:44,100 He ho to look low CO2, Vittorio prove. 857 00:52:44,100 --> 00:52:45,800 Yeah, something like that. And love that. 858 00:52:45,900 --> 00:52:50,400 I'm gonna go on zazzle.com and get the stickers, ready? 859 00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:52,900 Yeah, there we go. Make sure you are well, I'm sure 860 00:52:52,900 --> 00:52:55,200 we'll see like this, the shop link on Twitter? 861 00:52:55,300 --> 00:52:57,500 Yes, Josh, I want to just follow up with something. 862 00:52:57,500 --> 00:52:59,900 You were saying about this area being generous with At this 863 00:52:59,900 --> 00:53:04,200 time, we say that a lot because everybody is very generous to be 864 00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:07,300 on the show but I also want to just point out that butter is 865 00:53:07,300 --> 00:53:11,400 not generous with this. I'm only to us but to everybody 866 00:53:11,900 --> 00:53:16,000 and I sat down at a random to a random table for breakfast this 867 00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:20,200 morning like I always do and you came up right because they want 868 00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:22,200 to know who's going to be on the podcast today. 869 00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:27,000 And I said, if it's Oreo and they didn't really know you, but 870 00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:29,500 they do who you were. This is just go up and talk. 871 00:53:29,700 --> 00:53:32,700 On like he's one of the most friendly people out there. 872 00:53:32,700 --> 00:53:36,400 So this podcast kind of Time Capsule. 873 00:53:36,700 --> 00:53:38,700 I think if you're listening to it and going to a different 874 00:53:38,700 --> 00:53:42,200 conference type of tutorial is going to be at and maybe you're 875 00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:46,000 like I'm a little intimidated because I don't know him and you 876 00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:48,400 might not be friendly. No, you're wrong. 877 00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:50,500 He's very friendly. Go up and say hi. 878 00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:52,200 Thank you. Thank you. 879 00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:55,800 I'm always happy to talk with people and I have to admit that 880 00:53:55,800 --> 00:53:58,900 my ego swells. Every time someone comes and 881 00:53:58,900 --> 00:54:02,700 takes a selfie Be with me and I'm so spoiled because at every 882 00:54:02,700 --> 00:54:06,500 conference almost every day it happens and I always ask them to 883 00:54:06,500 --> 00:54:09,300 tweet it but they usually say, yes I will. 884 00:54:09,300 --> 00:54:11,200 And they don't I always feel about. 885 00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:13,400 We're going to take a picture and then I will tweet it. 886 00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:14,900 All right. One down, thank you. 887 00:54:15,900 --> 00:54:18,900 Oh thanks. Alright, anything else you want 888 00:54:18,900 --> 00:54:21,300 to cover? No, it can we let Vittorio out 889 00:54:21,300 --> 00:54:24,200 onto the town? Let him loose upon Vegas, we 890 00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:26,400 will let him loose, okay? All right, Victoria. 891 00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:29,300 Thank you so much again, for being part of this really do 892 00:54:29,300 --> 00:54:32,100 appreciate It looking for the future conversations, check out 893 00:54:32,100 --> 00:54:35,100 identity unlocked. It is a very good podcast and 894 00:54:35,100 --> 00:54:38,700 I'm not just saying that, but it is something that adds a lot of 895 00:54:38,700 --> 00:54:41,600 value for folks, and I think it's good for people to kind of 896 00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:44,700 see different perspectives, get into the Woody weeds little bit. 897 00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:48,300 I will admit sometimes I get a little bit lost and sometimes 898 00:54:48,300 --> 00:54:51,600 I'm learning that little bit through osmosis but at least I 899 00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:56,300 am picking things up and I feel like I'm more conversant around 900 00:54:56,300 --> 00:54:58,100 a subject that Victoria is touched on. 901 00:54:58,100 --> 00:55:01,200 So it's definitely worth it. I don'ti unlocks find it 902 00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:05,300 everywhere that podcasts are at. Basically, thank you so much. 903 00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:08,300 You can find us on the web. I don't eat the center.com on 904 00:55:08,300 --> 00:55:11,900 Twitter at IDC podcasts. Take a look for a further 905 00:55:11,900 --> 00:55:13,800 picture that will be posted there. 906 00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:17,200 You'll hear this far later than when that picture will go up, 907 00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:19,200 but appreciate it. So with that we'll go ahead and 908 00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:21,700 let everyone go. Thanks for listening and we'll 909 00:55:21,700 --> 00:55:23,100 talk with everyone in the next one. 910 00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:29,500 Thanks for listening to the identity at the center. 911 00:55:29,600 --> 00:55:32,700 A podcast if you like what you heard, don't forget to subscribe 912 00:55:32,700 --> 00:55:36,000 and visit us on the web and identity at the center.com.