1 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:10,400 This is identity at the center. If it has anything to do with 2 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:17,920 IAM, this is the go to podcast now your hosts Jim McDonald and 3 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:23,760 Jeff Stedman. All right. 4 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:27,480 Can everybody hear me? OK? 5 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:29,240 Good. Welcome to a special 6 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:33,200 Authenticate 2023 edition of the Identity at the Center podcast. 7 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:34,920 I'm Jeff, and that's Jim. Hey, Jim. 8 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:36,120 Hey, Jeff. How are you? 9 00:00:36,160 --> 00:00:38,240 Oh, not so bad yourself. I'm doing great. 10 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:41,720 You're normally in the podcast. Is that where I start out with 11 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:43,680 the complaint? I don't have one. 12 00:00:44,160 --> 00:00:46,400 That's unlike you I. Know well. 13 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:51,000 I mean the polls great, the weather's great, password stink, 14 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:53,560 but pass keys are great. You know, so you found something 15 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:56,760 to complain about right there. I snuck that in. 16 00:00:57,920 --> 00:00:59,560 So this is the first time we've done something like this, where 17 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:02,200 we got up on the mainstage. Usually we're tucked away in a 18 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:05,800 corner somewhere where we're not visible because we have faces 19 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:07,920 for radio and we have voices for a silent movie. 20 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:10,440 So we try to keep it simple here. 21 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:14,560 So far, the best part of this conference has to definitely be 22 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:17,520 I can't see him, but Nick, the guy on the Segway with the 23 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:20,520 camera, that guy's awesome. He's here, I think for the last 24 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:22,160 couple years. Andrew, it's at least a couple 25 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:24,080 years, right? Yeah. 26 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:26,200 OK, so that guy's awesome. He's like, when we're talking 27 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:28,600 superheroes for Authenticate, I think he should get like a 28 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:30,000 honorable mention for that as well. 29 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:33,440 People are probably wondering, you know, what is this session 30 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:35,680 about? Seems like everybody left, which 31 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:39,880 is fine. This is really a conversation 32 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:41,400 around identity that we're going to be having. 33 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:44,880 So what we do from a podcast perspective at the Identity 34 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:47,160 Center is we started this about 4 1/2 years ago. 35 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:50,520 It's a side project that Jim and I have been working on for that 36 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:52,800 long. We put out weekly episodes, got 37 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:55,000 thousands of listeners around the world, hopefully some 38 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:56,800 friendly faces and ears in here as well. 39 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:00,000 And yeah, it's something we do weekly. 40 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,840 And if you want to add Jim I. It's just grown so much, you 41 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:07,360 know, you mentioned thousands of listeners around the globe. 42 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:10,080 I remember the first episode we had 25 downloads. 43 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:12,520 We knew who all those people. Were that was 20 of them. 44 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:17,120 Yeah, and now we're up to like, episode 2. 3238 went live this 45 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:19,720 morning, so we're technically competing with ourself as we're 46 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:22,040 doing this at the same time. Yeah. 47 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:23,600 What do you do during the day, Jim? 48 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:28,080 I am an identity advisory practice consultant. 49 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:31,680 I lead an identity practice. We both work for a company 50 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:34,480 called RSM, 5th largest consulting firm in the US. 51 00:02:34,920 --> 00:02:36,840 Jim and I have been working together for eight years. 52 00:02:37,640 --> 00:02:40,680 This is something that again kind of a labour of love for us. 53 00:02:41,920 --> 00:02:45,080 What we do want to talk about today though is Fido 54 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:47,800 authentication. We've got AI will call it a 55 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:50,160 plethora. Of identity product managers who 56 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:52,680 are going to join us up on the stage here in a second. 57 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:54,480 So I'm going to go ahead and introduce them now and they'll 58 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:58,160 come back from backstage. We've got Daniel Grubby from 59 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:02,080 TikTok, Christian Brand from Google and Mahender and Matt 60 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:03,800 Event from eBay. So give him a round of applause 61 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:10,880 as we're walking up here. Guys in the Arsenio Hall. 62 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:13,720 Right. That shows our age by doing 63 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:16,520 that. All right. 64 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:19,640 So I know we're kind of running, you know, weirdly on time 65 00:03:19,640 --> 00:03:20,800 schedules. We're going to kind of jump 66 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:23,840 right into it guys. You guys are all, sorry, I'm 67 00:03:23,920 --> 00:03:26,440 moving the mic around here. You guys are all product 68 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:28,440 managers from an identity perspective. 69 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:31,360 Tell us a little bit about your roles and mahender, why don't we 70 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:32,400 start with you? What? 71 00:03:32,640 --> 00:03:34,560 Just briefly describe what your role is, sure. 72 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:38,080 Hi everyone I lead authentication product at eBay. 73 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:41,480 I've been working in the identity industry for almost a 74 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:44,000 decade now. A huge shout out to my 75 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:47,520 engineers, UX designers and architects and data analysts who 76 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:51,200 are Some of them are sitting right here and yeah, that's me. 77 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:54,720 Great, happy to go next. Hi folks, I'm Christian. 78 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:58,080 I've been working on passkey and fighter related efforts for 79 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:00,720 about a decade. Also, I'll give a shout out to 80 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:02,560 the team. We have a lot of Googlers here 81 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:05,680 this week. We've been working towards 82 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:08,400 getting passkeys out for Google accounts for a long time. 83 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:11,720 Earlier this year, as Andrew mentioned in May, we finally 84 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:15,280 made it available as an elective like as an elective flow, as an 85 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:17,120 option for users to try and play with. 86 00:04:17,519 --> 00:04:19,959 And then earlier this month, I believe just the last week on 87 00:04:19,959 --> 00:04:23,520 Tuesday, we announced that we are going to start. 88 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:26,600 Making passkeys the default option for users. 89 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:30,040 So actually today I'm sorry I'm taking too long, but I will say 90 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:32,720 this one thing today. If you do a web search in Google 91 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:36,760 Search on Mac OS, iOS, and other places, you should start seeing 92 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:40,040 a nudge on Google search to start using passkeys. 93 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:44,720 All right, Daniel, That's what we talked to follow up with, but 94 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:46,640 go for it, yeah. Thank you. 95 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:51,040 So my name is Dana Ruby and I am a product manager on our account 96 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:53,960 platform team at Tiktok. And I focus specifically on 97 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:56,920 account security, but we work on everything from signing up the 98 00:04:56,920 --> 00:04:58,800 new user journey as well as logging in. 99 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:02,200 Yeah. And similarly, Tiktok has now 100 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:05,720 launched Pass keys globally on iOS, which is really exciting as 101 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:08,960 our first kind of step in the Pass Keys, you know, And we have 102 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:10,960 a future road map as well, which we're excited to share with 103 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:14,200 everyone. But hey Mahindar, eBay started 104 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:16,920 with web auth N very early. Why is that? 105 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:21,240 So at eBay, you know we take pride in building magical 106 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:24,880 experiences for our customers and putting our customer first. 107 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:28,200 I would say two things help with you know, starting web auth and 108 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:31,880 one is clearly articulating the benefits of I would say 109 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:35,200 usability and security that web auth and provided at that point 110 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:39,200 in time. So you know reducing friction is 111 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:42,600 going to help build the business or enable the business and 112 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,560 improving security is going to build trust on the marketplace 113 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:48,600 and helps you know hence helps with the customer retention as 114 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:51,360 well. The 2nd aspect would be that 115 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:54,760 eBay is also an early adopter of Fido UAF. 116 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:58,160 We built native biometrics way back in time. 117 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:02,040 So they bought them, and even passkeys and password list is a 118 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:05,680 natural continuation to that. Christian, you just kind of 119 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:08,720 teased the announcement that Google made about pass keys by 120 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:11,160 default. I'm curious, you know, I've been 121 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:12,920 a supporter of that for a while. I've. 122 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:15,840 I've frequently pointed to Google on our show about passkey 123 00:06:15,840 --> 00:06:19,440 adoption and how easy it was. What drove that decision to make 124 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:20,960 that announcement? I think it was last week to say 125 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:23,640 hey now. By default we're using pass keys 126 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:25,640 as our primary authentication. Yeah. 127 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:28,160 That's a great question. So I mean, at Google, we're 128 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:32,280 extremely data-driven. So everything we do is usually 129 00:06:32,280 --> 00:06:36,000 based on numbers or metrics. It was a calculated decision 130 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:40,200 earlier this year when we started in May to roll out 131 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:41,720 passkeys. We wanted to really do two 132 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:44,120 things right. Overnight adoption was not the 133 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:46,400 goal. Primary goal was to show the 134 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:48,440 rest of the world that this technology is ready for prime 135 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:51,280 time, right? We're willing to essentially 136 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:56,920 subject our users to the Passkey experience if they choose to, 137 00:06:56,920 --> 00:06:59,120 you know, take up the challenge essentially. 138 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:03,160 The goal was not to get hundreds of millions of users overnight. 139 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:05,760 We wanted to start, you know, showing the world, showing 140 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:08,000 developers, showing other companies that the technology is 141 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:09,600 ready. But the second part of this was 142 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:11,680 we wanted to start getting data right. 143 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:15,920 We wanted to start having a set of users who self selected. 144 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:18,680 So if something goes off the rails, these users know where to 145 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,080 turn it on and turn it off. Luckily nothing went off the 146 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:22,520 rails. So I'll kind of like, you know, 147 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:25,120 preference that, but start to get data, right? 148 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:28,800 So, so we were gathering data for the last think about five 149 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:32,560 months. We feel like we have enough data 150 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:37,920 to show us what works, what still needs more work, and 151 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:40,040 again, you know, happy to go into some details at some point. 152 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:44,600 But for now suffice to say we think the experience is on par 153 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:49,360 from a reliability perspective with other types of technologies 154 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:53,040 we allow during signing. But more importantly, passkeys 155 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:56,080 are easier to use for users, and we have some survey results that 156 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:58,400 I think we also made available as part of these blog posts 157 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:00,800 users find. Passkeys easier to use. 158 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:03,760 The perception is that they're more secure, which of course is 159 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:06,360 correct. And in general we're just trying 160 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:09,800 to move the world to a space where we're saying don't hide 161 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:13,600 your passkey support behind, you know, 3 clicks in some account 162 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:15,360 settings. And I know that made sense, 163 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:16,560 right? That's what we did as well. 164 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:19,560 You can actually start to subject users to this front and 165 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:22,440 centre, even users you've never heard the term passkey. 166 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:26,240 We think the technology is at the point in most of the flows 167 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:29,280 where users can start seeing this and intuitively. 168 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:31,160 Do we understand what they need to do? 169 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:35,600 Daniel, you're with TikTok. First off, do you do the dances? 170 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:41,799 Second off, you know, you guys are kind of newcomers to Fido. 171 00:08:42,919 --> 00:08:45,240 Why jump in now? Sure. 172 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:47,040 Yeah. To answer your first question, 173 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:48,560 no. I don't do the. 174 00:08:48,560 --> 00:08:53,560 Dances, I'm not a dancer. But second, yeah, so why now? 175 00:08:53,560 --> 00:08:56,920 I I think, why not now, right? The technology has obviously 176 00:08:56,920 --> 00:08:59,960 been adopted by a lot of big players in the industry and 177 00:08:59,960 --> 00:09:01,280 Tiktok wants to be a part of that. 178 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:04,400 I think that what we know at Tiktok is that one. 179 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:07,440 Like you said, we want a user friendly but most secure login 180 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:09,600 experience. The second thing is, is we know 181 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:11,800 that Tiktok has a lot of login options, right? 182 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:15,200 You can log into Tiktok with a password with an SMSOTP code, a 183 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:18,320 third party option. We want to make sure that with 184 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:21,640 this plethora of options that we also reduce the risk of all of 185 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:24,680 those at the same time. Offering users a passkey does 186 00:09:24,680 --> 00:09:27,200 that in a user friendly way, especially with the way that we 187 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:30,480 implemented it, which upsells passkey as the primary login 188 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:33,480 method for users who created it. And then the last one is 189 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:36,280 essentially that Tiktok had already invested in 502 190 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:38,040 internally. We wanted to expand that 191 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:40,840 investment to make sure that the most secure login methods that 192 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:43,800 we offer to our employees are also offered to our users on the 193 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:46,040 platform. So really creating consistency 194 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:47,320 there as well as important. So how? 195 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:50,720 Did you handle communicating Pass keys to your end users? 196 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:52,760 Yeah, of course. I think one of the biggest 197 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:56,080 considerations, especially, you know, at a social media company 198 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:58,280 like TikTok where you have a lot of young users and things like 199 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:00,360 that. Are they really going to 200 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:04,160 understand the tech, the technical architecture of what 201 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:06,840 is a passkey, things like that? Even asking my own friends, I 202 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:08,920 was like, hey, you know, let's test this out. 203 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:10,920 What do you guys think they're like, oh, I already do this 204 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:12,960 every day in all my banking apps. 205 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:14,520 You know, I use my face to log in. 206 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:17,800 I'm like, that's not really what this is, But that's fine. 207 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:21,880 So we found that and similar to what the UX guidelines from Fido 208 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:24,080 say. Is that if you help users to 209 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:27,040 understand or play off what they think is happening, this really 210 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:29,800 can help adoption and increase popularity of it. 211 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:33,440 So playing off things like Face ID, Touch ID as ways to login 212 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:37,040 and using that to communicate to users of this new login method 213 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:39,000 will really help with adoption and popularity. 214 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:42,440 I'm curious because it's not always happy path, right? 215 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:44,880 There's things that go wrong, things that could be better. 216 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:48,600 Are there things that were discovered that you consider you 217 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:50,840 know, roadblocks, or things that still need to be worked out? 218 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:53,440 I don't know Mahender or Christian or or Daniel. 219 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:55,680 Whoever wants to take that one. I mean I'm I'm happy to start. 220 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:57,920 I I think there are many rough ages, right. 221 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:01,320 But I think it really depends on user flows. 222 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:04,560 There are certain flows that work beautifully, take the same 223 00:11:04,560 --> 00:11:06,960 device flow for example, right. If you have a pass key available 224 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:09,720 on the device that you're on, all you have to do is show your 225 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:11,880 face and touch your fingerprint. I mean there is there is no 226 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:14,360 dispute there, right. That experience is much better, 227 00:11:14,560 --> 00:11:17,680 much easier than using a password and other forms of 228 00:11:17,680 --> 00:11:20,240 second factor which usually accompanies that that password 229 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:23,880 with sensitive logins. When you do not have a pass key 230 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:25,720 on the machine, we have two challenges, right? 231 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:27,480 The one challenge is a technical challenge. 232 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:31,080 Does the protocol work reliably? There is Bluetooth involved. 233 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:33,680 There is network communications involved, There is the scanning 234 00:11:33,680 --> 00:11:35,360 of AQR code involved in some cases. 235 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:37,960 So that's one challenge. There is a second challenge, 236 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:40,080 which is users just don't get that flow yet, right? 237 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:41,640 They don't understand necessarily. 238 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:44,960 We're thinking that Post COVID, like lots of users, especially 239 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:48,440 in the US, used to scanning QR codes because we've seen them on 240 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,200 menus and other places for a long time that. 241 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:53,920 Doesn't necessarily translate to other places in the world and 242 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:56,200 even in the US users are sometimes used to scanning these 243 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:58,160 characters with certain apps and certain phones don't really 244 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:01,160 understand that well. So I think there's really a user 245 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:03,560 behaviour issue and then there is a technical issue. 246 00:12:03,560 --> 00:12:05,840 On the technical front we're doing a lot of work and I think 247 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:08,400 you know everyone involved here and I see a lot of familiar 248 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:11,880 faces involved in that. You know, process is is doing a 249 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:14,760 fantastic job and we're pushing the technology forward. 250 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:17,680 We're, you know, sanding down these rough edges and yes, we 251 00:12:17,680 --> 00:12:20,600 are at a point where we can start to subject users to these 252 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:22,840 flows, although. So I think that's where I would 253 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:24,840 say the elective portion still comes in. 254 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:28,120 I don't think we want to put that front and centre for every 255 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:30,280 user. If you take these side by side 256 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:32,440 entering a password, scanning a QR code and going through that 257 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:34,200 process, most users will still tell you actually, you know 258 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:35,720 what, my password is probably easier. 259 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:38,000 It's not secure, but it's easier, right? 260 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:41,480 We need to move the needle so that the QR code flow becomes 261 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:43,520 second nature. And that kind of brings me to 262 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:46,200 the second point, which is who's going to take that first plunge 263 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:49,120 to put their, you know, 100 million or a bullion users 264 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:51,280 through QR code scans rather than? 265 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:55,240 And doing passwords right, I think that is where we are 266 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:59,000 saying you know with our elective or the by default kind 267 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:01,920 of approach that we've taken, let's do that where it makes 268 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:04,120 sense, let's do that for the same device passkey flows and 269 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:05,920 that's what we're doubling down on right now. 270 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:11,200 Whereas the QR code flow remains an option for users and we want 271 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:15,120 to gradually turn that volume upwards with the rest of 272 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:16,720 industry. And that's why it's so important 273 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:20,120 also to have my, you know, partners here with us on on 274 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:23,040 stage because. We don't think pass keys is 275 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:28,160 something that one company can take forward and make a success. 276 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:31,680 We need the industry to show users that is how we are going 277 00:13:31,680 --> 00:13:34,200 to work with this going forward. Scanning AQR code is certainly 278 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:37,360 easier than opening a password manager on your phone and 279 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:40,640 retyping a complex password. So I do think we need to kind of 280 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:44,560 like push users to understand why these flows might be easier 281 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:47,520 to use than than the the the status quo. 282 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:52,120 But it'll take industry. I guess participation to really 283 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:54,760 move that. I'd like to add to that as well. 284 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:58,000 So I broadly see 3 categories, 3 roadblocks, right? 285 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:02,200 One is user awareness. Passwords are still common, 286 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:05,560 password managers are common to you know at eBay. 287 00:14:05,560 --> 00:14:09,440 If you look at it, users don't see authentication as a thing 288 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:11,400 that they need to do. They worry about buying and 289 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:13,440 selling. Same applies to Google, like 290 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:15,880 they they just want to search Tiktok, you know they want to 291 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:18,000 make videos. Right, authentication is in the 292 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:20,320 is the last thing that they worry about, right? 293 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:24,400 So to be able to create a smart contextual authentication that 294 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:28,600 works seamlessly across devices is is of paramount importance I 295 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:31,480 would say. So the second roadblock is the 296 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:36,280 you know across devices right? Password. 297 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:38,760 I mean pass keys or any technology needs to work like 298 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:41,880 how password managers work. You go to any device you should 299 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:45,040 be able to use, right. So interoperability becomes a 300 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:48,720 key here. We've seen some of with eBay 301 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:51,320 data as well. Users enroll into these password 302 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:54,080 list methods, but then they get a new device or they go to a new 303 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:56,080 device and then they are back to passwords. 304 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:59,320 So I would say these are the, you know, two or three 305 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:01,480 roadblocks that we encountered at at eBay. 306 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:04,000 As well. So it wouldn't be an episode of 307 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:06,160 Identity at the Centre if we didn't talk about AI. 308 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:09,120 Which you open and call it AIAI sometimes. 309 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:12,920 How do you guys see AI impacting authentication going forward? 310 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:15,400 Dana, we'll start with you. Yeah, sure. 311 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:19,400 So I think that the way I view authentication in our journey, 312 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:23,000 right, is before someone logs in when they are already logged in, 313 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:24,960 and then after they've completely lost access from 314 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:27,400 their account in the first two scenarios. 315 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:30,320 The way that AI has helped us already honestly, and the way 316 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:32,840 that it will continue to help us is to look at aberrations and 317 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:35,720 users behaviour. We can map out, you know, what 318 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:38,480 we expect from a user when they're logging in, when they're 319 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,400 already in an account, and then understand when that can change. 320 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:43,960 That can help provide us, especially with passkey, right? 321 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:48,680 If users you know use a passkey to login most of the time we'll 322 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:50,680 know when they don't. And it makes, as we heard 323 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:53,960 earlier today, passwords or other methods more risky as a 324 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:55,520 login. And that can be another signal 325 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:57,920 we use to understand as a behaviour operation. 326 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:01,800 The other way that we look at it is when a user's completely lost 327 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:04,720 access to their account, how do we authenticate their identity 328 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:06,520 and get them back in? Let's say they deleted their 329 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:08,640 pass key, right? They have no other login method 330 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:10,360 on their account. How do we know that this is the 331 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:14,520 authentic owner for, you know, companies that are in social 332 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:15,680 media? There are a couple different 333 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:18,640 challenges to this. There's AI around biometric 334 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:20,960 authentication that you can use. Obviously there are always 335 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:24,800 compliance issues around that, but also with social media you 336 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:26,560 don't always have to be your authentic self. 337 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:29,200 So biometrics are not always going to work right? 338 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:30,320 Wait, what? What? 339 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:33,680 I know, surprise everyone, you can be whoever you want online. 340 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:38,000 But basically, for some companies, you know, like 341 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:40,880 Facebook, there's a soft requirement that you have to be 342 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:44,480 yourself on Facebook at other companies like Instagram or, you 343 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:47,120 know, TikTok. You can have a pet account, a 344 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:49,160 meme account, really anything you want, right? 345 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:51,040 And how do we know that this is you? 346 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:54,600 Especially if we've lost all other authentication methods And 347 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:57,120 and I think that's really where I'm curious to see how AI can 348 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:01,240 help us in the future as well. Mahender Yeah, I think AI works 349 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:03,880 both ways. The good side of it is it can 350 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:06,680 help personalized and, you know, secure authentication. 351 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:09,400 You know Gen. AI can start, you know, 352 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:12,800 authenticating users through natural conversations, right? 353 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:15,400 You have. Zero trust security that that is 354 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:17,800 coming up where AI plays a big role as well. 355 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:21,040 But if you look at the flip side of it, I mean we saw a lot of 356 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:25,480 keynote speakers talk about you know AI used for hacking and you 357 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:30,160 know taking users credentials. I think you know the future of 358 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:33,400 how AI would help. You know, technology like 359 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:36,560 passkeys would be in. Distinguishing between I would 360 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:39,360 say real humans and AI bot that's coming to attack. 361 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:42,880 I think that's where the industry is going forward is 362 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:45,200 what I would, I would like to add to what Daniel said. 363 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:48,960 Hey Christian, feel free to add in on AI, but I also want to 364 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:53,600 know what's next after peskies. That's great because I think 365 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:55,600 that question addresses the first one as well. 366 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:57,560 So I want to add on to what Daniel Mahendra said, not to 367 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:02,000 repeat that I I think at Google we have a slightly. 368 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:06,520 I don't want to say a different responsibility, but but almost 369 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:09,520 like more responsibility. If you think about it, your 370 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:12,720 Google account is also where a lot of your passkeys are going 371 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:15,320 to end up. Google is the root store for a 372 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:17,680 lot of passkeys for users. If you're an Android user, by 373 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:20,640 default your passkeys for other services will go to your Google 374 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:22,320 account. That's where we keep them for 375 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:23,920 you. So when you buy a new phone or 376 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:26,560 when you change devices, you get access to your passkeys again. 377 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:30,360 That all makes sense, right? The challenge is if you are a 378 00:18:30,360 --> 00:18:32,680 single device user and we have a lot of single device. 379 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:36,000 Exist in the world if you break your phone or you lose it, or 380 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:39,280 you have to sell one phone to buy your next one, which a lot 381 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:42,080 of users have to do in some territories, some countries. 382 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:45,480 How do you get back into your Google account with a passkey if 383 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:46,920 your passkey is stored on your phone? 384 00:18:47,120 --> 00:18:49,080 Big challenge, right? Huge issue. 385 00:18:50,360 --> 00:18:53,600 Today we fall back to other forms of authentication for 386 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:56,920 that. Passwords, SMS, you know, 387 00:18:57,360 --> 00:18:59,800 sending a prompt to an e-mail address, whatever. 388 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:03,560 Most of these technologies really don't work at scale, and 389 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:06,400 they don't work at the level of security where we want past keys 390 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:10,240 to be, what we have started to look at and what not on the eyes 391 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:12,280 I. I recently went on a trip to 392 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:16,000 China and I had to activate WeChat, and WeChat uses remote 393 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:18,160 facial recognition. That's how you authenticate your 394 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:20,440 payment profile actually work remarkably well. 395 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,200 However, there's a lot of, you know, concerns around like 396 00:19:23,360 --> 00:19:25,360 remote biometrics and I know that's one of the things which 397 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:29,520 at Fider we kind of like claim. The whole point is everything is 398 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:31,480 local, right? Your biometrics remain local to 399 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:33,480 your device. So it's great on the privacy 400 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:34,560 front. The problem is. 401 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:39,520 If you need to authenticate a user back into their account, 402 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:42,360 think of account recovery. What do you use? 403 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:45,160 Remote biometrics is a potential solution. 404 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:47,640 However, if you think about remote biometrics, whatever that 405 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:49,720 like is maybe remote facial recognition? 406 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:53,760 It's remote voice recognition, if we think back at Rachel's 407 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:57,560 presentation this morning. Jedi has made this stuff, you 408 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:00,560 know, untrustable. It's not really trustworthy 409 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:04,160 anymore, right? If I'm able to create a, at 410 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:08,240 least today, two-dimensional picture of a user, mostly these 411 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:11,800 remote matching stuff is all two-dimensional, That's a 412 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:13,640 challenge. Voice recognition, again, 413 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:14,880 another challenge. I know there's a lot of 414 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:18,200 financial institutions who sunk a lot of money into remote voice 415 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:23,360 recognition features. I I'm not quite sure that we are 416 00:20:23,360 --> 00:20:25,120 going to be able to keep up with. 417 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:28,640 What's the rate of advances there in order to get that 418 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:33,320 technology to a point where it it can detect that this is an 419 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:36,160 electronically altered or a generated, you know, piece of 420 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:38,440 media. That is what that is what 421 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:40,680 bothers me a little bit. So we're starting to think of 422 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:42,720 Google. How do we solve this account 423 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:45,240 recovery problem? We have a couple of ideas. 424 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:49,520 We're working on a whole bunch of things right now, but AI is 425 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:52,480 really throwing a bit of a spanner in the works in some of 426 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,560 these. The Unhappy Path is something we 427 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:58,200 see exploited quite a bit. I think we saw it recently with 428 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:01,440 events in Vegas. We're running short on time, but 429 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:03,920 we always try to carve out some time to end On a lighter note, 430 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:06,920 this is where we just have some fun, not necessarily identity 431 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:09,280 related, something that we can just kind of goof off around. 432 00:21:10,360 --> 00:21:13,320 What we typically do is we'll ask our guests hobbies, things 433 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:14,600 they do outside of Denny, etcetera. 434 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:17,240 So we've kind of tailored a few different questions here. 435 00:21:18,360 --> 00:21:19,320 Jan, I'm going to start with you. 436 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:21,960 So I've come up with this exciting scenario for you. 437 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:27,520 If you had to perform one song to go viral on TikTok, and if 438 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:31,960 you nailed it, everybody would suddenly be enrolled in passkeys 439 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,720 for all their accounts, what would you sing or perform? 440 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:38,200 Sure, probably. Who are you? 441 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:42,440 By The Who, I think it's the most punny of answers I could 442 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:43,160 give. Clever. 443 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:48,400 But for context, I grew up performing, singing. 444 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:51,760 I was trained in Opera. Randomly, I used to live in 445 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:53,360 Paris. I sang in the Paris Opera when I 446 00:21:53,360 --> 00:21:55,440 was there. I LED an acapella group, 447 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,280 composed all those songs. I was in a band in Austin for a 448 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:02,040 long time when I lived there. Way too many moments on stage 449 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:05,120 performing. So the one that I the one song I 450 00:22:05,120 --> 00:22:07,560 didn't love to sing the most though, was somebody to Love. 451 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,160 By Queen, that was always a lot of fun. 452 00:22:10,360 --> 00:22:11,600 Queens are hitting every bar, right? 453 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:12,080 Right. Yeah. 454 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:12,400 Yeah. Yeah. 455 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:16,320 So maybe that one is that. You must be a karaoke superstar. 456 00:22:16,360 --> 00:22:19,720 Let's all go after this. But we have lakes. 457 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:21,760 If you wanted to sing. Something I know, right? 458 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:25,760 Hendar, you and I have a shared experience through in that 1% of 459 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:29,120 humanity that has gone to the top of Half Dome in Yosemite 460 00:22:29,120 --> 00:22:31,480 National. Yeah, really awesome. 461 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:37,600 Describe that experience for us. It was nerve wracking, I should 462 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:40,720 say the least. You know I'm not fit. 463 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,840 You can look at me right? And I was like, let's go to Hop 464 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:46,600 Dome with my friend. And we started at 3:00 AM. 465 00:22:47,360 --> 00:22:49,480 We probably saw a bear or we think we saw a bear. 466 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:51,480 We don't know. We climbed up. 467 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:55,480 I think till then it was fine. Like we we took six hours, 6 1/2 468 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:59,160 hours to climb up the Half Dome. We finished all our water, 469 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:02,240 right. And coming back down was a pain. 470 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:06,120 I mean I cannot explain. It's easier to implement past 471 00:23:06,120 --> 00:23:07,880 keys than climb Half Dome. I would say that. 472 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:11,520 That's a professional tie in. You should do a podcast, 473 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,640 Christian. You have a variety of interests. 474 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:21,600 You've learned to play guitar, you're learning golf, and 475 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:22,840 obviously you're in digital identity. 476 00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:25,720 Of those three things, which is the hardest? 477 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:29,520 Well, that's a great question. First, before that, I just want 478 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,720 to tell Daniel we've done karaoke at 7 out of the last 7 479 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,440 Fido Plenaries. So we'll we'll we'll hook you up 480 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:37,320 it. Finally has been thrown down. 481 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,800 Absolutely. It's interesting, right? 482 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:45,080 I think golf takes a lot of time, right? 483 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,680 It's four hours essentially for me to play 18, which like you 484 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:50,600 know, takes me away from the house for for a lot. 485 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:55,600 So it's hard to invest proper time in that guitar. 486 00:23:55,880 --> 00:24:01,080 You can become mediocre or or you know kind of like help 487 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:03,360 yourself to the point that you know you wouldn't embarrass 488 00:24:03,360 --> 00:24:05,840 yourself. You have to play a song I think 489 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:10,280 much quicker than with necessarily you know working in 490 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:13,120 the identity space, like I I feel like identity is is almost 491 00:24:13,120 --> 00:24:16,400 like binary, right? You're either, you know don't 492 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:20,120 really get the principles and and you're not really, you know, 493 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:23,800 I I guess part of the solution until you are, until you really 494 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:25,960 can contribute. There's just so much happening 495 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:27,880 in this space. It's so fast moving. 496 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:30,960 Not to discourage anyone from like participating in the field, 497 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,760 of course, but I think there's there's such a lot going on. 498 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,720 And if you are disconnected and you're not staying on top of 499 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,600 things for three months, the world has changed so much that 500 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:41,960 you almost like, have to I don't wanna say like relearn. 501 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:44,560 So I feel like, you know, playing golf and and and playing 502 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,480 the guitar I enjoy because it's kind of like riding a bike. 503 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:51,040 Once you have the skills you retain them today, 10 years from 504 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,520 now, you know you can probably still pick it up and and and 505 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:57,000 help yourself versus the identity space which is just so 506 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,080 fast changing. So again, I'd say identity, 507 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,160 certainly the hardest thing that I'm involved in right now do 508 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:05,120 enjoy golf. But I will say, picking up the 509 00:25:05,120 --> 00:25:07,200 guitar and being able to just, you know, do something for 5 510 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,280 minutes is is one of the reasons why I love that instrument. 511 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:14,920 One of the things I like about the identity industry is just 512 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:19,840 when you think you know what you're doing, you don't the ID 513 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:21,760 Pro organization. And I think I saw EM here 514 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:23,600 somewhere, he might have stepped out and I'm probably butchered 515 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,360 the stat. But there's a annual report that 516 00:25:26,360 --> 00:25:29,120 comes out every year of skill survey and they talk about, you 517 00:25:29,120 --> 00:25:31,880 know, when did you feel most comfortable in identity? 518 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:34,000 And the numbers changed over the years. 519 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:36,600 But I remember seeing, and I think it was a couple years ago, 520 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:40,040 it was 10 years. 10 years of identity and access management 521 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:42,720 experience is when you start to think you know what you're 522 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:46,880 doing. I would encourage folks, reach 523 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,120 out, talk to people. There's lots of good resources. 524 00:25:49,120 --> 00:25:51,880 It's been a great industry to work in for for a lot of folks. 525 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:55,080 But we're going to go ahead and start to wrap things up. 526 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,040 I think it was mentioned earlier, there is a Expo hall 527 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:00,200 just next door. Make sure that you go out and 528 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:01,840 check out. There's a lot of good solutions 529 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,120 out there. The challenge is there's a lot 530 00:26:04,120 --> 00:26:06,520 of good solutions out there, so you have to try and find the 531 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:08,040 right fit for your organizations. 532 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:12,480 And we're going to be podcasting in Eclipse 2, which is sort of 533 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:14,480 behind the Expo in the hallway there. 534 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,160 So we have an episode later this afternoon that we're going to be 535 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,200 recording as well as pretty much all day tomorrow. 536 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:21,720 So feel free to come in, drop in, check this out. 537 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,680 What we do, they will be longer shows as we sort of normally 538 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:27,480 would do it. And if you like what you heard, 539 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:31,160 idacpodcast.com subscribe, It's a two man operation. 540 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,440 It's literally just Jim and I, and we do this every week, 541 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:36,520 vendor neutral conversations. Want to give a round of applause 542 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:39,480 to our guests here on the stage. Thank you so much for joining 543 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:45,200 us. And we're going to go ahead and 544 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:49,120 thank also Megan, Andrew and Adrian for helping make this 545 00:26:49,120 --> 00:26:51,560 happen. So this is a highlight for us on 546 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,240 the show, to be able to be up on a stage like this and just have 547 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:58,200 this conversation. So wanted to give Andrew an 548 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:00,920 opportunity to come up or maybe it's Megan to make a quick 549 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,080 announcement. We'll go ahead and play our 550 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,440 outdoor music and say, OK, we're pretty much it and that's done. 551 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:09,640 Thanks for listening and we'll talk with everybody in the next 552 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:15,960 one. You've been listening to 553 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:19,840 identity at the center. We hope you've enjoyed the show. 554 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:24,280 Make sure to like, rate and review and we'll be back soon. 555 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,680 But in the meantime, hit the website at 556 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:33,800 identity@thecenter.com and find us on Twitter at IDAC Podcast. 557 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:38,320 See you next time on Identity at the Center.