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You're listening to the identity
of the center podcast, this is 

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the show that talks about 
identity and access management 

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and making sure you know who has
access to what let's get 

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started. 
Welcome to the identity of the 

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sender podcast. 
I'm Jeff Fenton that's Jim. 

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Hey Jim hey Jeff, how are you? 
Oh not so bad yourself. 

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I'm doing great and giving a lot
of thought to a specific topic 

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today which is kind of round 
what we do, right? 

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We are the, I am strategist that
companies bring in to help them 

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develop their IM strategy. 
So we're supposed to be the 

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experts, right? 
And the idea would be that you 

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could take Some very specific 
area of I am like privileged 

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access management or identity 
governance and, you know, her 

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role management and be able to 
dive into any specific area. 

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But what I find, we always have 
to do is make sure that we still

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have a very sharp answer on the 
basics. 

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What is governance? 
What is an IM program? 

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So Jeff, I've got a question for
you. 

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What is I? 
Okay, so existential question. 

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Thank you know, who am I? 
What are you all kinds of 

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different things. 
Here's my, here's my, my short 

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version of what is I am, it's 
who has access to, what? 

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That's it. 
That's it. 

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That's the, that's the 
distillation of it. 

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More complex. 
Yes. 

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There are more things that come 
into it, but that's it, right? 

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I think so. 
You have to be able to go down 

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the side Paths of there's more 
things to it because I think 

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about governance. 
And I remember some bleep 

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somebody boiling down to me, In 
these terms, it's who gets to 

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make what decisions like. 
Yeah, that's pretty much what 

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governance is at the core, but 
there's so much more to it, 

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right? 
There's, you know, kind of a 

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framework for formally. 
How you run your program, how 

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you keep involvement of your 
stakeholders, things like that. 

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But if starting from a base 
explanation like who gets to 

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make, what's Visions is really 
good. 

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Starting point, just like I am 
saying who has access to what 

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that's Great. 
There's more to it though. 

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Well, it's kind of like, you 
know, it's a racy for real life.

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Who's accountable signing, my 
wife and Iraq, same conversation

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about this last night because we
have really great dinner 

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conversations when we're talking
about race, he's at dinner but 

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it's the same thing. 
It's yeah. 

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Who can make what decision 
ultimately? 

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You know, it's like Highlander 
there can only be one who is the

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A and the decision, you know, 
rests on and they're accountable

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for they may not make the 
decision but there are 

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Honorable, for whatever that 
decision is, which can be caused

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from, you know, an important 
area of I am I think we always 

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focus on who has access to what 
but what about when that who is 

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not a who or it's a non 
carbon-based life-forms, we 

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nerds like to say or a 
silicon-based life-form in other

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words it's that machine identity
and I think that's one of the 

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topics we're going to dig into 
today. 

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Yeah, it's pretty interesting 
where we're getting right here. 

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You know, this there was a news 
article this week that the US 

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patent office has basically 
said, AI is not allowed to 

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patent. 
Thanks. 

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So it has to be a human, so I 
guess that's good news. 

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Is we've staved off the, the 
robot Overlord Invasion for at 

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least a little bit of time 
before they take over. 

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But machine identity, for 
example is very difficult. 

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Now we're talking about box now 
we start to get into, okay, how 

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do we kind of weave these things
together between humans? 

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Nonhumans and, you know, at some
point there's probably a whole 

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bunch of in-betweens in that and
there's this concept of an 

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identity fabric that kind of is 
the is the pattern or quilt or 

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whatever. 
So analogy we want to use that 

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is intended to kind of pull all 
this together in a way that 

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makes sense. 
And why don't we bring in our 

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guest for for this week to help 
us with that conversation? 

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His name is Paul Fisher. 
He's the lean Analyst at Cooper.

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Nicole, Welcome to the show. 
Paul. 

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Hi, thanks for having me. 
Yeah, thank you so much for 

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joining us and I believe you're 
coming from the UK and having 

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this conversation with us is 
that right? 

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I am, I mean area, cooled. 
Tweaking them in London, greater

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London trick them. 
If you don't know, it is famous 

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for its rugby ground or rugby 
stadium. 

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I should say it's known as the 
home of the English rugby, which

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is great, except I not 
interested in rugby at all. 

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So that's the only claim to 
fame. 

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What we have here. 
So, we have some big rugby 

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matches Internationals and 
things. 

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But but yeah, great to be here 
joining you from London. 

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Well, thank you so much for 
joining us. 

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And, you know, one of the things
that we like to get into here is

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kind of background of the folks 
that we have on the show to 

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really kind of understand the 
Viewpoint that they're coming at

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this conversation from. 
So I know we're going to talk 

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about machine identities at any 
fabrics and all kind of all the 

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stuff in between, but But before
we get into that, how did you 

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get into identity and access 
management? 

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Is it something that you chose 
or did it choose you? 

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Yeah, well, I think it kind of 
chose me really. 

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I mean it's if we go back not 
going to go back to the entire 

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of my life but appropriately, I 
used to be an IT journalist for 

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many years up until about the 
early 2000s and as you probably 

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know it journalism was Fairly 
insecure occupation then and 

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it's now almost doesn't exist. 
So after a few are went to some 

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places like AOL which also 
proved to be less than fruitful.

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And then a few years ago, I 
became the editor of a magazine 

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called SC or secure Computing. 
So that was my real introduction

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to I guess the world of cyber 
security And from then on into, 

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you know, sub areas like 
identity and access management 

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and then I got into becoming an 
analyst and it was not a coming 

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a call where I am now. 
But a previous analyst, firm was

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where I first started to really 
start. 

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Looking at identity and 
privileged access management and

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related areas in more detail and
started sort of taking it 

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seriously or suppose. 
So yeah, it's probably not 

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something that I would have 
chosen if I was given a list of 

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things. 
To specialize in. 

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I don't know if identity access 
management would have been right

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up there. 
But as you, it is actually 

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turned out to be the, it sounds 
like a damning it with faint 

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praise, but it's a lot more 
interesting than you might think

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so. 
So yeah, I'm a leader but I 

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should say I'm a lead analyst. 
I don't want my colleagues at 

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coping de to get upset when I 
sound like, I'm the lead analyst

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only. 
He one of the few lead analyst 

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we had, that's our hierarchy and
of course we have Martin who is 

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our our Overlord and it were the
lead lead out and well yeah. 

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He's the Uber analyst I guess is
one way of saying it so yeah. 

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And that's where I am now. 
And I've been a carpenter for to

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nearly three years. 
Paul, what are the areas of I am

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that? 
You focus on. 

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Yeah, so I was given Privileged 
access management as one of my 

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sort of key topics at coping a. 
And so I've really focused on 

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that quite a lot in the last two
years but it's recently been 

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branching out a lot more into 
identity and access management 

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in more General. 
And then looking at things that 

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you mentioned earlier, the top 
there things like our identity 

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Fabric and dream which is our 
latest sort of Paradigm for 

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managing identities within multi
Cloud. 

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Infrastructures Etc. 
So I also do some related stuff.

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So submitted data governance. 
Things like that but I think 

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that really everything. 
One thing I know about it now or

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or identity is the more you know
the kind of the less you know it

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just gets More complicate just 
when you think you've kind of 

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cracked it or you don't. 
Yeah. 

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That that'll solve everything. 
It did. 

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It gets worse. 
You start to realize how much 

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you don't know. 
Yeah, yeah. 

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And I don't know a lot over well
you do know you you do you do 

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know enough to have a good 
conversation about? 

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I think we're going to get into 
the privileged access management

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side of things but this It's 
like doing the fabric and it's 

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kind of a new term, right? 
And it's something that you guys

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have spun up at KCI believe but 
let's start with that kind of 

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the basic question like Jeff and
I were yammering on about where 

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you know, let's not just assume 
we know what identity fabric is 

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based on, you know, with the 
name implies. 

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Let's just ask the question. 
What is the identity fabric? 

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Yeah, I think people live. 
The word identity fabric 

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suggests a kind of a cloak 
almost or something. 

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You wrap around an 
infrastructure and almost as an 

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extra layer of security and I 
think that is probably 

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misleading. 
The way I describe it is that it

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puts identity at the center of 
everything. 

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Not the infrastructure. 
So instead of making identity 

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and access management have to 
meet the requirements of the 

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infrastructure, you need to 
build the infrastructure around 

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identity and access management 
or more particularly around 

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identity. 
But that's the kind of 

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philosophical view. 
But more what we're talking 

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about is an Adaptive set of 
capabilities. 

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So your identity and access 
management platform, we all 

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solutions are adaptive and can 
be changed and change as your 

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demands change. 
So I think it's really about 

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modernization of identity access
management. 

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It's about fluidity agility in 
all those buzzwords but probably

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are sort of key to our 
discussion is that we're moving 

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away from a world of just simply
human identities or traditional 

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privileged accounts into a world
where we don't really know half 

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of the identities that exists in
an order or the identities that 

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maybe having some access to the 
infrastructures that we have. 

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So we need and that obviously 
includes things like machine 

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identities. 
Occations little bits of code 

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and all sorts of stuff. 
That's now, buzzing around 

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infrastructure and I'm sort of 
known it cooking a call for 

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coming up with the universe of 
this and a universe of that and 

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I think that we often see it. 
Infrastructures as kind of 

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linear structures with things 
sticking off at right angles and

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this way and then there's a 
server there and there's 

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something else there and I think
it's becoming much more like 

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Like the Amazon rainforest or or
a coral reef kind of ecosystem 

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where there is just millions of 
life forms that all depend on 

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each other and they all run 
around and it's actually harder 

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to visualize that or to make 
sense of it and it is to 

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actually just think about the 
identities that are using it. 

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And if you think concentrate on 
the identity, What they need 

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access to what role they have 
and how long they need access, 

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it shouldn't matter so much what
the infrastructure looks like. 

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So that's what kind of turning 
it everything inside out. 

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And that's that's I hope 
describes what we mean by an 

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identity fabric. 
That's pretty easily actually. 

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Yeah, that's that's even more 
philosophical than I even 

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contemplated. 
Obviously, we came to podcast 

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identity at the center, so we 
kind of have a Similar 

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Viewpoint, right? 
Which is that you have and we've

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seen this in our careers major 
shifts in the technology 

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landscape from. 
You know the on-prem data center

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environment to now very much a 
cloud-based environment, who 

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knows maybe it'll shift back the
other way at some point that's 

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the way I T has seemed to go 
throughout our career and kind 

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of prior to our career was 
shifts back and forth. 

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And I mean, if anybody thinks 
that things are going to stay 

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static for the next hundred 
years you're you're out of your 

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mind, right? 
I mean we know changes the one 

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thing that we can be sure of, 
but what I think is important is

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that, that idea of, if you have 
good controls around the 

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identity, they should be able to
adapt to that infrastructure. 

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Yeah, I mean by T is all about 
people doing stuff right in the 

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end. 
It's all about applications, 

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doing stuff and increasingly, 
there are more and more 

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applications, and people are now
used to downloading an app and 

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then immediately using it. 
So you're right about things. 

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Do come around. 
Oh, I mean, I remember back in 

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the 90s, everyone was talking 
about the network computer and 

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what a great idea that was 
because you have a dumb terminal

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and you just fire up a virtual 
machine and You'd connect just 

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for your work that you needed 
you to get the applications you 

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needed etcetera. 
When you shut it off. 

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That was it was, it was gone 
forever and I think we sort of 

227
00:15:00,500 --> 00:15:04,800
almost talking about that again.
Now, with web applications 

228
00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:09,400
except it's much more 
sophisticated and you can do so 

229
00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:10,800
much more. 
I mean, I think those dumb 

230
00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:16,000
terminals had some kind of 
browser-based applications. 

231
00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:22,700
I can't remember now because 
Actually they came and went, we 

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00:15:22,700 --> 00:15:27,100
talked about on-premises dying 
the little but I agree with you.

233
00:15:27,100 --> 00:15:29,900
It's actually if you talk to 
people in the real world they 

234
00:15:29,900 --> 00:15:38,500
still like to have stuff on 
premise and so the yeah, even 

235
00:15:38,500 --> 00:15:40,000
people are still using 
mainframes. 

236
00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:45,000
I found out the other day, so 
which was because even 

237
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mainframes even predate me and 
you I'm sure so. 

238
00:15:49,100 --> 00:15:52,600
Oh, for sure. 
A Jeff and I we had a client 

239
00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:57,400
that has over 100 mainframes 
without a strategy to get off 

240
00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:00,600
the Mainframe. 
So that means it's going to 

241
00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:02,800
they're going to be around for 
quite a while. 

242
00:16:03,100 --> 00:16:07,100
I've um, well, yeah. 
Exactly. 

243
00:16:07,100 --> 00:16:08,800
IBM. 
Still, they're still selling 

244
00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:11,100
them and doing quite a good 
business. 

245
00:16:11,100 --> 00:16:13,900
I think out of Mainframe stuff 
and they say that they have 

246
00:16:14,300 --> 00:16:16,500
people that actively ask for 
him. 

247
00:16:16,500 --> 00:16:20,900
So yeah, but I But what is 
different though? 

248
00:16:21,100 --> 00:16:25,600
Is to get to the point of our 
discussion is the number of 

249
00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:31,300
identities. 
The number of access points the 

250
00:16:31,308 --> 00:16:37,200
number of privileged accounts 
and then I was talking to a 

251
00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:42,900
vendor the other day. 
They claimed that when their 

252
00:16:42,900 --> 00:16:47,700
solution was installed by their 
customer, they found 10 million,

253
00:16:49,700 --> 00:16:54,700
Privileged accounts or other 
sorry to clarify, that found 10 

254
00:16:54,700 --> 00:16:57,600
million standing privileged 
accounts. 

255
00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:01,500
So that was 10 million accounts 
that have been opened and never 

256
00:17:01,500 --> 00:17:06,400
closed. 
And we're basically an open, 

257
00:17:07,599 --> 00:17:10,099
exactly. 
But I was staggered at like 10 

258
00:17:10,099 --> 00:17:14,000
million, 10 million accounts 
have been created over the years

259
00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:18,800
I guess, never been controlled 
and that's where the philosophy.

260
00:17:18,900 --> 00:17:23,400
She comes up against the 
reality, I guess, of, of 

261
00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:27,300
business Computing. 
And that's the other thing that 

262
00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:34,700
I try to bring into whatever I 
write is that we are in the end 

263
00:17:34,700 --> 00:17:39,100
talking about Business Solutions
and sometimes you know, in our 

264
00:17:39,100 --> 00:17:42,400
world it's easy to get carried 
away with the technology and 

265
00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:45,300
like and say talk about the 
coral reef or the Amazon 

266
00:17:45,300 --> 00:17:49,900
rainforest and things like that.
But there's Reason why this 

267
00:17:49,900 --> 00:17:54,900
stuff exists is because 
businesses want to do stuff and 

268
00:17:54,900 --> 00:17:59,300
if we take, you know, the car 
industry automotive industry. 

269
00:17:59,300 --> 00:18:03,200
As a good example. 
They've literally they are 

270
00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:06,900
example of digital 
transformation in action. 

271
00:18:07,500 --> 00:18:11,100
They're moving from an 
engineering lead industry into a

272
00:18:11,100 --> 00:18:15,200
software LED one. 
And they are the people that are

273
00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:18,200
actually the customers for all 
this stuff they are the people 

274
00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:21,200
that really We are trying to 
manage all these identities in a

275
00:18:21,208 --> 00:18:25,200
real-world. 
So as I said, we can talk about 

276
00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:29,500
philosophies. 
But the way that when we talk 

277
00:18:29,500 --> 00:18:32,600
about the identity fabric where,
where is all way of kind of 

278
00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:38,200
clarifying, what people need to 
do to manage what's going on in 

279
00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:41,100
their organizations. 
I think it's the evolution of 

280
00:18:41,100 --> 00:18:43,200
the business process. 
Like he just mentioned right 

281
00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:47,400
used to these things, didn't 
exist, 10, 15, 20, 30 years ago.

282
00:18:47,900 --> 00:18:51,700
So these Process is now being 
replaced by software, right? 

283
00:18:51,700 --> 00:18:54,400
Software is eating the world as 
I think, you know, one of the 

284
00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:59,000
statements that's kind of been 
out there and I guess from a, 

285
00:18:59,300 --> 00:19:02,100
from a management perspective. 
And when I think management 

286
00:19:02,100 --> 00:19:05,000
thing identity management, you 
know, we have this kind of core 

287
00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:07,600
concept of human versus non 
human. 

288
00:19:08,300 --> 00:19:11,700
And now I'm thinking of more 
like doesn't matter so much. 

289
00:19:11,900 --> 00:19:14,300
It's just an entity that needs 
access. 

290
00:19:14,300 --> 00:19:16,100
Does it really matter if it's a 
human or not? 

291
00:19:16,100 --> 00:19:19,100
Because at the end of the day, 
it's still who has access As to 

292
00:19:19,100 --> 00:19:20,900
what and is it appropriate, 
right? 

293
00:19:20,900 --> 00:19:23,100
And all those kind of key things
go along with it. 

294
00:19:23,500 --> 00:19:26,000
I guess I'm wondering from your 
perspective do you see it that 

295
00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:29,300
way as well? 
But also in addition to that, 

296
00:19:29,300 --> 00:19:31,700
How do machine identities fit 
into this? 

297
00:19:31,700 --> 00:19:35,200
What's so special about them? 
And I guess are they special 

298
00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:38,000
when it comes onto any fabric? 
Yeah well I think you kind of 

299
00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:42,100
set it there in the end. 
Does it actually matter what the

300
00:19:42,100 --> 00:19:47,500
identity is that is trying to 
access a own identity is trying 

301
00:19:47,500 --> 00:19:53,200
to access Server, you have to, 
just does it matter whether 

302
00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,800
that's human or non-human or 
machine or not machine, which is

303
00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:59,500
now the cool way to say human 
and non-human. 

304
00:19:59,500 --> 00:20:05,900
So so machine and not machine to
get ready for our overlords 

305
00:20:06,700 --> 00:20:09,200
exactly what seems to me. 
Like that's more machine. 

306
00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:11,200
Positive language that we're 
using. 

307
00:20:11,500 --> 00:20:14,400
Yeah, if we say, well, you 
either a machine or you're not? 

308
00:20:15,900 --> 00:20:19,700
So, let's assume that anyway. 
And I Entity wants to do 

309
00:20:19,700 --> 00:20:25,400
something in a network, really? 
If the identity access 

310
00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:28,000
management or the privileged 
access management is set up 

311
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:33,200
correctly. 
It should know, not what that 

312
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,300
identity is, but what it's 
trying to do, and what it's 

313
00:20:36,300 --> 00:20:40,500
trying to access and whether 
that's okay, really? 

314
00:20:42,100 --> 00:20:47,700
Because the the network doesn't 
know, you know, when when things

315
00:20:47,700 --> 00:20:51,700
have been switched, they do. 
Whether it's a human or 

316
00:20:51,700 --> 00:20:55,300
non-human or an application is 
looking for Access. 

317
00:20:55,300 --> 00:20:59,400
So why do we care so much? 
And I think the vendors are 

318
00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:02,000
coming around to that quite a 
lot as well as particularly in 

319
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,000
privileged access management. 
They didn't used to talk about 

320
00:21:05,300 --> 00:21:07,700
machines very much. 
Now, they talk about them all 

321
00:21:07,700 --> 00:21:12,500
the time. 
They spoke about admins which is

322
00:21:12,500 --> 00:21:17,300
kind of seems now like a really 
kind of slightly prosaic thing, 

323
00:21:17,300 --> 00:21:22,300
you know, the old Edmonds that 
need access to your, to end 

324
00:21:22,300 --> 00:21:26,000
point to, to squirt, to do 
something. 

325
00:21:27,700 --> 00:21:31,500
You know, who knows what happens
Arabic were admins? 

326
00:21:32,100 --> 00:21:35,700
Why are they human? 
Probably not, you know, service 

327
00:21:35,700 --> 00:21:41,200
accounts do stuff like that. 
So, my view is that there is 

328
00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,600
nothing special about machine 
identities, particularly any 

329
00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:47,600
more than there's nothing 
special about human identities. 

330
00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:51,500
I think there are Just 
identities or entities, which I 

331
00:21:51,508 --> 00:21:54,400
think you said as well, which is
probably even better to talk 

332
00:21:54,400 --> 00:22:02,200
about entities and it's just the
sheer, the sheer pace of 

333
00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:06,300
everything as well as you know, 
Financial Services is another 

334
00:22:06,300 --> 00:22:10,300
example of digital 
transformation in action has 

335
00:22:10,300 --> 00:22:14,900
gone from a very staid industry 
to one that's embraced software.

336
00:22:14,900 --> 00:22:18,600
Development is Embrace agile and
devops and everything because 

337
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:24,500
They need to create code all the
time, so we can't get in the way

338
00:22:24,500 --> 00:22:26,700
of that. 
And, and we've established that.

339
00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:32,300
Now, as a way of working in an 
event, in the software companies

340
00:22:32,300 --> 00:22:35,200
themselves are doing the same 
thing, you know. 

341
00:22:35,300 --> 00:22:39,400
So which, you know, brings us on
to things like software supply 

342
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:47,200
chain security which which is 
related to all this but it Dad. 

343
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:52,400
I just think that Yeah, my view 
is an eye, what the identity is 

344
00:22:52,700 --> 00:22:55,800
really doesn't matter. 
You know, I think there are 

345
00:22:55,800 --> 00:23:01,300
implications for the I am 
practitioner in the difference 

346
00:23:01,300 --> 00:23:04,700
between human and non-human, 
identities. 

347
00:23:04,700 --> 00:23:08,500
And I come at it from this 
standpoint, I feel like it's 

348
00:23:08,500 --> 00:23:13,700
gotten very good in terms of 
managing the human identities, 

349
00:23:13,700 --> 00:23:17,200
especially in the Enterprise 
contacts especially with 

350
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:21,800
employees yourself. 
Employees in the HR System, when

351
00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:25,400
they join the organization lead,
the organization change shot 

352
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:27,100
rolls. 
That's the quote, unquote, 

353
00:23:27,100 --> 00:23:30,000
authoritative Source. 
Ideally, you either have a 

354
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:34,200
parallel for non-employees or 
there, maybe even in your HR 

355
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:37,900
System. 
However, when it comes to 

356
00:23:38,100 --> 00:23:42,100
non-human identities, it could 
be a number of stories. 

357
00:23:42,100 --> 00:23:45,000
When you have that Dev psi-cops 
environment, you have developers

358
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,700
who now need to create machine 
accounts to think. 

359
00:23:48,900 --> 00:23:53,200
Go through some Central process 
to make sure that, you know, 

360
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,000
it's going through proper 
channels for approval and being 

361
00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:01,200
documented, do you have a way to
discover if you're creating 

362
00:24:01,500 --> 00:24:07,100
those identities out of process?
And then with service accounts, 

363
00:24:07,100 --> 00:24:11,600
I mean, the ideal scenario is 
you, you do go through some kind

364
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:15,100
of ticketing system. 
There's a paper trail for the 

365
00:24:15,100 --> 00:24:18,700
request and approval of the 
creation service account. 

366
00:24:18,900 --> 00:24:23,000
And then you're managing the 
service account, life cycle, 

367
00:24:23,100 --> 00:24:26,000
including management of the 
credential. 

368
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,800
So, you know, I you password, 
make sure you're rotating the 

369
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:33,700
password and no humans are the 
past for because, you know, we 

370
00:24:33,708 --> 00:24:35,800
kind of joked earlier about the 
attack. 

371
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:40,900
Surface machine identities. 
Can multiply your attack surface

372
00:24:41,100 --> 00:24:44,800
especially if you're not if you 
don't have good controls over 

373
00:24:45,700 --> 00:24:49,400
over those machine identity. 
So I don't think There are 

374
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:53,200
different in terms of, you know,
a lot of the aspects you just 

375
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,500
talked about. 
I guess my thing, I wanted to 

376
00:24:56,500 --> 00:24:58,300
bring to the table, is we've 
done. 

377
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:04,900
We've gotten down to really best
practices for management of the 

378
00:25:04,900 --> 00:25:07,900
humans. 
And I think for the nonhumans 

379
00:25:07,900 --> 00:25:16,500
is, its were the state of 
maturity of organizations at a 

380
00:25:16,500 --> 00:25:21,200
hot as a whole, is not Nearly as
good as it is with humans. 

381
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:25,200
So you're saying that where 
we've kind of got human 

382
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:30,700
identities, pretty much under 
control give or take but the the

383
00:25:30,700 --> 00:25:33,800
machine identities are, we're 
way off that. 

384
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,700
Is that where we? 
I think the 80/20, that's what I

385
00:25:37,708 --> 00:25:39,000
see. 
Yeah. 

386
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,900
You see, that's why I don't know
whether that's where that's 

387
00:25:43,900 --> 00:25:46,500
true. 
I think that, I mean, in 

388
00:25:46,500 --> 00:25:48,700
privileged access management 
there. 

389
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:54,700
There is now a kind of a divided
opening up between newer vendors

390
00:25:55,100 --> 00:25:59,500
smaller startup type of guys 
that have built Cloud native 

391
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:04,700
applications from the ground up 
versus the Cyber arcs. 

392
00:26:04,700 --> 00:26:08,500
The Beyond trust the well, I was
going to say that. 

393
00:26:08,500 --> 00:26:14,600
Okay, then centrify, but they're
now called de línea and who come

394
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:23,700
from the very regulated Bolt. 
Password rotation, set up versus

395
00:26:23,700 --> 00:26:27,500
the newer, guys, which have 
decided. 

396
00:26:27,500 --> 00:26:31,200
Yeah, you can have a v if you 
want, but we're just going to do

397
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:36,000
just in time. 
For the reason being. 

398
00:26:36,100 --> 00:26:39,900
We know that there's this whole 
new world of influx of 

399
00:26:39,900 --> 00:26:46,900
identities that want privileged 
access to stuff and we don't 

400
00:26:46,900 --> 00:26:50,400
think there's time to issue. 
You passwords or anything else, 

401
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:55,300
but just manage those identities
equally and give them just in 

402
00:26:55,300 --> 00:26:58,100
time access when and when they 
need it. 

403
00:26:58,100 --> 00:27:03,200
So that the problem with that, 
is that there is an argument 

404
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:08,900
that that isn't secure enough, 
the, the older, more established

405
00:27:08,900 --> 00:27:11,600
players or so. 
Yeah, but you don't have any 

406
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,500
analytics. 
You don't have any governance, 

407
00:27:15,900 --> 00:27:18,700
you don't what happens when when
it doesn't work. 

408
00:27:19,900 --> 00:27:22,800
How you going to find it? 
Like you mentioned a paper trail

409
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:27,100
so it's probably easier to do 
that with humans. 

410
00:27:27,100 --> 00:27:32,100
I don't know, but I think 
ultimately we will see Pam 

411
00:27:32,500 --> 00:27:36,800
become much more focused on just
in time and ephemeral, but will 

412
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:40,800
become better. 
Those vendors that are emerging 

413
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,000
will become better at the stuff 
that they're missing at the 

414
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,000
moment. 
So I think my money would be if 

415
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,400
I was betting on on Pam. 
I'm itself. 

416
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,500
My money would be on some of 
those vendors for the, for a 

417
00:27:52,508 --> 00:27:57,800
long-term future bet, but I 
still think the in the end we 

418
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:02,800
haven't got time to worry about 
whether humans or machines or or

419
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:10,000
aliens or whatever else, once 
once access to do our 

420
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,900
businesses. 
So we have our guests on our 

421
00:28:13,900 --> 00:28:18,700
last episode, Mike Frazier, VP 
of devops over it sofa. 

422
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:23,900
Assuming he quoted the Star Trek
resistance is futile. 

423
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:32,700
Yeah, welcome to the board but I
did want to, this is exactly why

424
00:28:32,700 --> 00:28:37,200
having you on the show is, is so
cool because you've got a 

425
00:28:37,208 --> 00:28:40,500
different perspective as an 
analyst you're out there. 

426
00:28:40,500 --> 00:28:45,400
Seeing what's coming, what are 
these new inventions in this 

427
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,300
space? 
The new players in, you know, 

428
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,800
You're getting an earlier view 
of that, whereas, I think Jeff 

429
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:54,900
and I are going into 
organizations and we're trying 

430
00:28:54,900 --> 00:28:59,000
to talk about best practices 
that are being used in the 

431
00:28:59,008 --> 00:29:01,600
industry. 
So it's lagging a little bit 

432
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,400
behind kind of the The Cutting 
Edge. 

433
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:08,000
What's new? 
But also from an analyst 

434
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:12,800
perspective, you're also working
on new Frameworks and New 

435
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:14,700
Concepts ways of thinking about 
things. 

436
00:29:14,700 --> 00:29:18,400
You've got a concept called 
dream and I, you know, I see 

437
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:23,700
that Can I have a dream or 
living the dream but give us an 

438
00:29:23,700 --> 00:29:28,200
idea of what it is. 
So is Dr. E, am talk to us about

439
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:29,700
what that is. 
What is Dream? 

440
00:29:30,100 --> 00:29:32,800
Well first, what is your point 
on your right? 

441
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,900
You probably we do, we don't 
live in a fantasy world but we 

442
00:29:35,900 --> 00:29:39,900
do live in a world where perhaps
we're predicting what's going to

443
00:29:39,908 --> 00:29:42,300
happen but then that's our 
business. 

444
00:29:42,300 --> 00:29:48,600
I guess. 
So dream as you say they used to

445
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:52,500
be A pop group in England, 
called D Rim, which was D 

446
00:29:52,500 --> 00:29:55,200
stroke. 
Re am for some reason. 

447
00:29:55,200 --> 00:30:00,300
So, I tend to in my head OS, a 
dream, but to be serious. 

448
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:07,900
What it stands for is denying 
Dynamic resource entitlement and

449
00:30:07,900 --> 00:30:13,600
access management. 
So we've we've seen that the 

450
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:20,000
market is changing to 
accommodate multi Multi Cloud 

451
00:30:20,500 --> 00:30:23,500
infrastructures hybrid 
structures, Etc. 

452
00:30:23,900 --> 00:30:29,600
And Gartner came up with Kim or 
their Cloud infrastructure, 

453
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:35,900
entitlement management grouping 
and we've sort of taken that a 

454
00:30:35,900 --> 00:30:39,700
bit further. 
So, yeah, I think Gartner was 

455
00:30:39,700 --> 00:30:46,100
right to identify Kim and also 
Cloud security posture 

456
00:30:46,100 --> 00:30:51,300
management which that I think 
they've now Merged into into 

457
00:30:51,300 --> 00:30:54,600
another acronym that which I 
forget right now but they work 

458
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:59,500
their a right to see that cloud 
entitlement and access 

459
00:30:59,500 --> 00:31:04,200
management was well that needed 
managing and there was an 

460
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,900
emergence of vendors to do all 
that. 

461
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:13,800
And but we noticed as I kind of 
hinted just now that within the 

462
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:21,800
pad Market itself, first of all,
they had I started to understand

463
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:27,900
the unique needs of the devops 
or Dev secure Ops and agile 

464
00:31:27,900 --> 00:31:32,700
groups in getting privileged 
access to stuff quickly. 

465
00:31:34,500 --> 00:31:40,300
And so that invariably meant the
devops tend to work Almost 100% 

466
00:31:40,300 --> 00:31:42,600
in the cloud and use cloud 
resources. 

467
00:31:43,100 --> 00:31:46,100
So we thought, well, that's 
that's actually a cloud 

468
00:31:46,100 --> 00:31:48,600
infrastructure, entitlement 
management. 

469
00:31:48,700 --> 00:31:52,500
Thing. 
But then there is also these 

470
00:31:52,500 --> 00:31:55,400
vendors themselves which are now
doing Kim. 

471
00:31:55,400 --> 00:32:02,000
So we thought, well, let's put 
those together and we got that. 

472
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:06,000
The world is moving to Dynamic, 
infrastructures. 

473
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,300
Everything is in and out. 
Things are scalar, spun up and 

474
00:32:09,300 --> 00:32:15,800
spun down quite often 
privileges, open and often left 

475
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:19,400
open and things like that, which
is part of the Will this 

476
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:24,000
managers? 
It managers increasingly have 

477
00:32:24,500 --> 00:32:30,700
not much control over lines of 
business that are downloading 

478
00:32:30,700 --> 00:32:32,700
stuff. 
Building machine building 

479
00:32:32,700 --> 00:32:36,900
virtual machines, building code 
in their departments. 

480
00:32:36,900 --> 00:32:41,500
So if they can't Direct in the 
old days you know in the old 

481
00:32:41,500 --> 00:32:46,000
days of perimeters Etc and and 
firewalls they could have just 

482
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:47,700
stopped people doing that but 
it's out. 

483
00:32:47,700 --> 00:32:49,900
It's no longer there. 
It's no longer possible. 

484
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:56,200
Plus they have the business side
of the Enterprise could actively

485
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,100
encourages stuff because like I 
said, the car industry. 

486
00:32:59,500 --> 00:33:02,400
Once those guys to be building a
new bit of software for their 

487
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:06,100
latest electric vehicle, and 
they want that to be updated 

488
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,300
over the air as often as 
possible. 

489
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:13,200
So, we've brought together all 
of that and we've doing a 

490
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:17,000
leadership Compass, which I 
should explain a leadership. 

491
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:20,800
Compass is a report that You're 
cold does on a particular 

492
00:33:21,100 --> 00:33:24,200
product sector. 
So we've kind of invented this 

493
00:33:24,500 --> 00:33:28,800
dream sector which is what got a
does. 

494
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:34,500
So why can't we do it? 
And we've invited the number of 

495
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:41,300
Pam vendors that perhaps do some
Cloud management or do some Pam 

496
00:33:41,300 --> 00:33:47,700
for devops plus, a number of the
dedicated Kim vendors, all of 

497
00:33:47,700 --> 00:33:52,000
which seem to have I've been 
from my research so far. 

498
00:33:52,500 --> 00:33:56,000
Most of these came vendors 
didn't exist, five years ago. 

499
00:33:56,200 --> 00:34:02,400
So it's a really new part of the
business and they're all, you 

500
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:07,000
know, small startup type of 
outfits. 

501
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:12,100
But they're all attracting a lot
of money from the VC community, 

502
00:34:12,699 --> 00:34:18,500
so that that's what dream is 
it's our assessment. 

503
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:28,100
Of any platform that can 
discover and can manage access 

504
00:34:29,100 --> 00:34:31,699
or rather. 
Sorry could discover those 

505
00:34:31,699 --> 00:34:33,800
identities. 
They have access to Cloud, 

506
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:38,199
resources and can manage that 
access usually from some kind of

507
00:34:38,199 --> 00:34:44,600
dashboard and can switch that 
off or switch it on can prevent 

508
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:48,500
access, but it crucially, it can
do. 

509
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:53,900
It can actually look at things 
which are happening on Amazon 

510
00:34:53,900 --> 00:34:57,600
web services, so gets quite 
granular or it can, you know, 

511
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:01,700
they, most of these Kim 
platforms, are not all of the 

512
00:35:01,700 --> 00:35:06,800
Pam platforms, actually will 
cover the four main Cloud 

513
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:11,000
providers. 
So, but they, as I said, they 

514
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:15,900
are mostly dashboard driven are 
mostly web based on our web 

515
00:35:15,900 --> 00:35:18,500
application and the kid ones in 
particular. 

516
00:35:18,700 --> 00:35:23,800
Killer, a really quite exciting.
I mean, they are and this is 

517
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:29,100
where I probably get a bit 
overexcited because I was about 

518
00:35:29,100 --> 00:35:34,900
to say they're quite fun to use,
but I think the the fact that 

519
00:35:34,900 --> 00:35:40,400
they work in a dashboard and you
can see the entitlement, you can

520
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:44,100
see who has access, you can see 
getting back to whether they're 

521
00:35:44,100 --> 00:35:46,300
humans are machines. 
You can see what kind of 

522
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:51,700
identity it is. 
So, That's that's for us is our 

523
00:35:51,700 --> 00:35:56,400
way of making sense of this 
trying to manage everything 

524
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,500
moving to the cloud and hybrid 
clouds. 

525
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:02,200
And that comes back to what I 
was saying earlier. 

526
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:07,200
Like it the the dashboard is is 
a focus. 

527
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:10,600
Their the dashboard is the focus
on identities and their 

528
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:15,000
activities and what they're 
accessing what's around that 

529
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:18,300
dashboard is kind of the 
infrastructure. 

530
00:36:18,700 --> 00:36:22,700
And that doesn't really matter 
to what you're seeing within it.

531
00:36:22,700 --> 00:36:27,500
So I hope that explains dream I 
think. 

532
00:36:27,500 --> 00:36:29,700
Actually I explained it to 
myself quite well there. 

533
00:36:29,700 --> 00:36:31,300
So I think I understand it 
better as well. 

534
00:36:31,300 --> 00:36:38,500
So and that report is as I said 
I'm working on right now and 

535
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:41,500
we'll publish it in May 
sometime. 

536
00:36:43,100 --> 00:36:48,500
So yeah, the dream dream on the 
I Have a Dream and there it is. 

537
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:52,000
Is what's a great acronym? 
And I guess I've got to follow 

538
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,200
up questions for you. 
The first is stupid. 

539
00:36:54,500 --> 00:36:56,900
My stupid question is what comes
first. 

540
00:36:56,900 --> 00:37:00,500
Is it the identification of a 
space like this or do you come 

541
00:37:00,500 --> 00:37:03,300
up with the acronym and say how 
do we fit I am? 

542
00:37:04,300 --> 00:37:09,800
Well that's that's a that's a 
trade secret because heaven 

543
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:12,700
forbid that I have a bid that we
would come up with something as 

544
00:37:12,700 --> 00:37:15,300
nice as dream and then fit 
everything around it. 

545
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:20,300
But in this case, yeah, I mean 
We wanted the word dynamic in 

546
00:37:20,300 --> 00:37:26,400
there, so, because I think 
Dynamic does it does describe 

547
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:30,700
what's happening quite well. 
I cut, one of my colleagues came

548
00:37:30,700 --> 00:37:34,300
up with this. 
I can't remember which one but 

549
00:37:34,500 --> 00:37:38,700
we, yeah, we went through. 
We, the process is that, yeah, 

550
00:37:38,700 --> 00:37:40,900
we realize that something is 
happening. 

551
00:37:40,900 --> 00:37:44,400
Perhaps in the market, we 
realize that there are vendors 

552
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:48,500
doing some new things. 
And we notice that the way, 

553
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,400
Businesses have been doing 
infrastructure is changing. 

554
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:56,400
So yeah, so then we think well 
that's seems to be a new 

555
00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:03,000
category of platform or product 
and then we think of the the 

556
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:07,500
acronym afterwards. 
So I'm sure that's what I 

557
00:38:07,500 --> 00:38:09,400
imagine is like a whiteboard 
somewhere with just a whole 

558
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:13,000
bunch of like terms and then 
it's a little bit like Mad Libs 

559
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:16,400
or some word game, right? 
Where you trying to, to order 

560
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:19,200
them in a way that makes them 
sort of, you know, D sounding 

561
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:20,300
effort. 
Mm, yeah. 

562
00:38:20,300 --> 00:38:24,400
I think we might have might have
had D Ram or something before 

563
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:29,300
before. 
Someone said, hang on or but 

564
00:38:29,300 --> 00:38:33,200
yeah, whiteboard is a very 
popular tool with my boss 

565
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:36,600
Martin. 
Actually, he loves the Microsoft

566
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:38,200
whiteboard. 
I mean, you know, the you the 

567
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:41,800
one that comes comes thrown in, 
with teams, Etc. 

568
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:48,300
So that's the process. 
And as I said, I, I love talking

569
00:38:48,300 --> 00:38:50,700
to These some of these new 
vendors as well. 

570
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:55,200
Because it kind of really 
enthusiastic about what they do 

571
00:38:55,200 --> 00:39:01,800
and most of them have some track
record in identity business that

572
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:05,400
gives us the way to say. 
They've done startups in the 

573
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,700
past and now they're doing that 
another one and so on. 

574
00:39:08,700 --> 00:39:13,000
So it's it's a great time to be 
covering identity. 

575
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,400
I think. 
Well, speaking of kind of a 

576
00:39:15,408 --> 00:39:18,500
space, you know, Mike the second
part of my question. 

577
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:22,600
A follow-up is, I can't imagine 
that the established privileged 

578
00:39:22,700 --> 00:39:25,200
privileged access management 
players, right? 

579
00:39:25,300 --> 00:39:28,100
And we only think of kind of 
like the big ones cyber-ark 

580
00:39:28,700 --> 00:39:32,600
Beyond trusts you psychotic, you
know, all the ones that are out 

581
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:35,600
there is that they're going to 
see this ground willingly. 

582
00:39:36,100 --> 00:39:38,600
And so, when I see a bunch of 
these little startups, kind of 

583
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:42,400
come up with new technology, 
hmm, it almost strikes me as 

584
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:46,300
like, okay, either cyber-ark, 
which is pick on cyber cyber are

585
00:39:46,300 --> 00:39:48,400
Kirby on trust, right? 
These are going to build it 

586
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:49,500
themselves. 
Themselves or they're going to 

587
00:39:49,500 --> 00:39:52,600
go out and acquire one of these 
smaller startups and kind of 

588
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:55,600
augment their existing solution 
to become, you know, that much 

589
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:57,400
more complete from a service 
offering. 

590
00:39:58,100 --> 00:40:01,400
Do you see a consolidation 
taking place in this space that 

591
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:05,800
would merge privileged access 
management with Cloud 

592
00:40:06,300 --> 00:40:08,500
infrastructure? 
Entitlement management or 

593
00:40:08,700 --> 00:40:10,400
dynamic? 
I'm not going to get it right? 

594
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:13,700
But then, you know, the dream, 
the dynamic resource, 

595
00:40:13,900 --> 00:40:16,500
allocation, things like that. 
What is happening? 

596
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:21,300
I think. 
Let's let's take cyber up again.

597
00:40:21,700 --> 00:40:27,100
They've actually Rebrand not 
rebranded but they've kind of re

598
00:40:27,100 --> 00:40:31,000
pitched the entire business 
along identity now rather than 

599
00:40:31,500 --> 00:40:36,200
privileged access management and
they have now got a crowd 

600
00:40:37,300 --> 00:40:42,900
entitlement tool within their 
portfolio so that's their way of

601
00:40:42,900 --> 00:40:48,000
responding and be on trust. 
I'm sure are looking at it the 

602
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:51,400
same way. 
Way, I think we will see some 

603
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:57,700
Acquisitions, maybe some of the,
the maybe one of the two of the 

604
00:40:57,700 --> 00:41:00,400
Kim providers. 
The problem with that is that 

605
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:03,900
the Kim providers. 
Also offer some form of 

606
00:41:03,900 --> 00:41:10,700
privileged access management 
within their own platform and I 

607
00:41:10,700 --> 00:41:15,200
would say that I wouldn't say 
that the the big players are 

608
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:19,200
threatened or you know there's 
still plenty of Out there for 

609
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:27,200
Pam, pure Pam but I don't think 
it's as easy as them acquiring, 

610
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:32,800
perhaps a Kim startup because 
the technology is so different 

611
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:37,800
and they built this stuff. 
Like I said, Cloud native, it's 

612
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:42,700
so up to date. 
You know it's built for cloud 

613
00:41:42,700 --> 00:41:47,900
environments. 
So we are seeing like a, I think

614
00:41:48,500 --> 00:41:51,400
The last few years there has 
been some consolidation in Pam 

615
00:41:53,400 --> 00:42:00,000
psychotic and and centrify as we
mentioned have merged into now 

616
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:04,500
called de línea. 
So they're in the process of 

617
00:42:04,700 --> 00:42:10,600
merging two sets of of 
capabilities into one which 

618
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:16,000
either suggest that they felt 
that scale will help them 

619
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:22,600
compete. 
Or that that was the way to 

620
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:27,100
compete with say be on trust and
cyber-ark cyber-ark. 

621
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:32,000
As I said, their response has 
been to change the focus 

622
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:37,500
slightly so they are looking to 
reinvent themselves. 

623
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:42,400
I think cyber-ark have the 
resources and expertise to do 

624
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:48,400
that, but we're also seeing some
traditional identity. 

625
00:42:48,500 --> 00:42:55,100
Petit players moving into this 
Market as well as sale point and

626
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:58,700
doctoral playing a little bit in
privileged access management. 

627
00:42:59,300 --> 00:43:03,400
And then of course the cloud 
providers themselves they all 

628
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:06,800
have some level of privileged 
access management built in 

629
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:09,500
automatically as does Microsoft 
so far. 

630
00:43:09,500 --> 00:43:13,300
None of those have really shown 
much interest in developing it 

631
00:43:13,300 --> 00:43:17,300
beyond their own proprietary 
system. 

632
00:43:17,300 --> 00:43:21,200
So, This movement going on. 
But it doesn't, I mean the 

633
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:25,000
number of Pam. 
If I talk about another report, 

634
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:29,200
I do Pam leadership Compass the 
number of vendors in that has 

635
00:43:29,300 --> 00:43:33,300
actually stayed about the same 
even within consolidation. 

636
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:38,400
There are some newer within with
empowerment self. 

637
00:43:38,500 --> 00:43:42,900
There are also some newer more 
Cloud native Pam providers 

638
00:43:42,900 --> 00:43:47,700
coming up. 
So it's a market that is really 

639
00:43:48,500 --> 00:43:55,200
in a great state of flux. 
The other thing that is 

640
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:57,400
affecting this is software 
supply chain. 

641
00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:06,600
So not exactly an identity 
matter in the classical sense, 

642
00:44:06,700 --> 00:44:11,000
but all these devops guys, and 
all these people doing stuff 

643
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:16,200
with open source code, for 
example, create some kind of 

644
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:19,000
Threat, Vector it, but just by 
doing In that. 

645
00:44:19,100 --> 00:44:22,900
And that stuff is all mixed up 
in this, you know, 

646
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:25,100
infrastructure that we're 
talking about. 

647
00:44:25,100 --> 00:44:30,800
So it's, it's a fascinating 
world and I think, yeah, I look 

648
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:34,000
forward to seeing what it looks 
like, maybe in five years time, 

649
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:38,500
I predict that some of these Kim
providers will get swallowed up.

650
00:44:38,500 --> 00:44:42,600
They'll merge or they'll get 
bought out by perhaps a bigger 

651
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:48,200
player. 
Microsoft, in fact did acquire a

652
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:51,700
Actually, I'm pretty sure they 
acquired a Kim vending of the 

653
00:44:51,700 --> 00:44:53,300
nice things. 
Yeah. 

654
00:44:55,000 --> 00:45:00,500
Is that right? 
I think I'm right on the in, so 

655
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:02,700
that could happen with 
Microsoft. 

656
00:45:02,700 --> 00:45:04,600
Haven't done much with it so 
far, but it was only a few 

657
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:07,700
months ago, so we'll see. 
Yeah. 

658
00:45:07,700 --> 00:45:10,300
Where is the throw a few 
thoughts out there, myself all? 

659
00:45:11,100 --> 00:45:16,000
Because I think you're from a 
customer perspective, customers 

660
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:19,800
don't want to have to keep going
and finding new Vendors to solve

661
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:23,300
these problems. 
I also think though one of the 

662
00:45:23,300 --> 00:45:28,700
challenges is that you know Pam 
was designed around the 

663
00:45:28,700 --> 00:45:33,300
traditional on-prem. 
Now you've got infrastructure as

664
00:45:33,300 --> 00:45:36,900
a service and there are 
companies who strategies to say,

665
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:41,500
we're all in on a particular 
infrastructure, whether it's 

666
00:45:41,500 --> 00:45:46,800
Amazon, Google, Microsoft, you 
name it, then there are others 

667
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:50,400
that say we're going to let Let 
our it teams, our business 

668
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:54,400
teams, choose the cloud that 
works best for them. 

669
00:45:55,700 --> 00:45:59,700
And that latter scenario to me, 
it seems like that's the 

670
00:45:59,700 --> 00:46:03,900
messaging from the Kim providers
is, you know, you, you know, to 

671
00:46:03,900 --> 00:46:08,400
try to manage identity across 
these clouds which all operate 

672
00:46:08,700 --> 00:46:13,200
very differently in terms of how
they managed identity, you need 

673
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:17,400
a tool and your traditional Pam 
can't do that. 

674
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:23,000
I think from a customer 
perspective, still they want 

675
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:27,000
their Pam tool to be able to 
extend into the cloud. 

676
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:32,400
And if they choose one cloud 
provider, say Amazon, I don't 

677
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:36,700
want to have to buy a separate 
tool to manage that. 

678
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:41,300
So I feel like there's this kind
of tug of war and was being lost

679
00:46:41,300 --> 00:46:46,800
as what the customer really 
wants, which is support for the 

680
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:50,600
quote-unquote hybrid. 
Enterprise, which is almost 

681
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:53,500
everybody there. 
You know, other than small 

682
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:57,500
organizations you have both, you
know, some very small 

683
00:46:57,500 --> 00:47:01,800
organization might be all Cloud.
I don't, I haven't run into a 

684
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:05,400
organization recently that has 
no Cloud right. 

685
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:10,400
Almost I say basically, every 
large organization has some 

686
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:15,600
Cloud infrastructure now. 
So I think companies won't, you 

687
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:19,800
know, one tool. 
So either for Pam to have the 

688
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:25,200
Keen capabilities or a keen 
player to stand up and say, oh, 

689
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:28,000
by the way, we can do your 
on-premise infrastructure as 

690
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:31,600
well, we can do password vault 
in Your Privilege session 

691
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:36,900
management and that audit Trail,
we can do the whole nine yards. 

692
00:47:36,900 --> 00:47:40,000
So to me, that's that's the 
ground where we hit the most 

693
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:41,800
success. 
What are your thoughts there? 

694
00:47:42,500 --> 00:47:46,900
Yeah, you're absolutely right. 
And I think the the, the 

695
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:50,700
organization's Also used 
multiple clouds from different 

696
00:47:50,700 --> 00:47:54,800
vendors, so they'll probably use
Azure and Google and they might 

697
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:59,000
not even know who's using. 
What? 

698
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:03,500
Yeah, I get that. 
The if you went for a Kim 

699
00:48:03,500 --> 00:48:07,500
vendors, say right now, they're 
not going to be able to do the 

700
00:48:07,500 --> 00:48:12,800
traditional Pam stuff. 
On the other hand, the more 

701
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:18,300
traditional Pam providers are 
probably not as good or as fast.

702
00:48:19,300 --> 00:48:23,600
At managing identity access to 
Cloud resources. 

703
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:31,200
But I think this this conundrum 
is, is long-standing this this 

704
00:48:32,700 --> 00:48:38,000
the idea that a customer will 
get something and that's it. 

705
00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:45,100
This will last for a decade and 
will we won't will the vendor 

706
00:48:45,100 --> 00:48:50,600
will provide enough upgrades for
us to keep to to keep in in 

707
00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:54,200
touch with our own changing 
circumstances. 

708
00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:59,100
I don't think that'll ever 
happen, you know? 

709
00:48:59,100 --> 00:49:02,400
I just think it's it's a bit 
like you know, you buy, you buy 

710
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:06,600
an iPhone or tablet, two years 
later, you realize that it's no 

711
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:12,800
longer fast enough or it's no 
longer can do the things that 

712
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:15,200
you want to do right now. 
So you buy another one and so 

713
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:18,800
on, so that is kind of 
multiplied at million times 

714
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:24,400
within an organization and I 
guess our job company. 

715
00:49:24,500 --> 00:49:28,900
Area is obviously to advise 
people as best we can on what 

716
00:49:28,900 --> 00:49:35,400
they should invest in what they 
should purchase to get a ratio 

717
00:49:35,500 --> 00:49:42,500
of fit for purpose versus 
obsolescence as best that we can

718
00:49:42,500 --> 00:49:45,900
advise. 
So that's where, if they said, 

719
00:49:45,900 --> 00:49:49,300
we have lots of privileged 
accounts, we still have stuff on

720
00:49:49,300 --> 00:49:54,000
premises. 
We work in a highly regulated. 

721
00:49:56,300 --> 00:50:01,800
Then a zippy but feature, like, 
Kim solution, probably wouldn't 

722
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:04,500
be the right one. 
And we would probably say you 

723
00:50:04,500 --> 00:50:10,300
need a good solid privileged 
access management platform and 

724
00:50:10,300 --> 00:50:12,400
this is from analyzing your 
business. 

725
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:16,800
So we're never going to be able 
to say that a vendor or a 

726
00:50:16,808 --> 00:50:18,600
solution is going to be good for
everyone. 

727
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:24,900
The only thing I would say is 
that pace of development Within 

728
00:50:24,900 --> 00:50:33,200
the Kim sector for what I've 
seen so far is pretty rapid and 

729
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:36,300
it's probably more rapid than 
what's happening and privileged 

730
00:50:36,300 --> 00:50:39,700
access management, but to get 
back to the root. 

731
00:50:39,700 --> 00:50:43,300
I think they are responding like
cyber are Beyond trust. 

732
00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:49,000
They are realizing that maybe 
they had overlooked this Market,

733
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:52,600
but they are making their making
moves now to to do something 

734
00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:57,300
about it. 
So, If my the message to a 

735
00:50:57,300 --> 00:51:01,800
customer that's already, perhaps
invested in a Pam platform of 

736
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:08,000
one of those types would be. 
Don't Panic probably they will 

737
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:13,700
come up with some part or a new 
to set of capabilities that 

738
00:51:13,700 --> 00:51:18,100
would deal with your multi 
hybrid your dream environment. 

739
00:51:18,100 --> 00:51:24,800
So yeah I mean it's it's not an 
easy thing, you you You'll never

740
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:29,400
find anything that will probably
suit your be fit for purpose 

741
00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:31,500
forever but you can might find 
something that will be fit for 

742
00:51:31,500 --> 00:51:34,400
purpose. 
I don't think things are so 

743
00:51:34,500 --> 00:51:37,100
Dynamic at the moment that 
everything is out of date by 

744
00:51:37,100 --> 00:51:40,400
next week, that that might 
happen decades into the future. 

745
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:47,700
Who knows what he'll we might be
trying to advise on in then. 

746
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:51,100
But for now I think that's the 
best answer. 

747
00:51:53,300 --> 00:51:56,100
Which is, you know, get What 
works for your type of 

748
00:51:56,100 --> 00:51:58,800
organization, your kind of 
people, Etc. 

749
00:51:59,100 --> 00:52:02,400
I can see it in the future, you 
know, we kind of we started by 

750
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:04,300
dumping on the Mainframe, you 
know, like, oh, they're still 

751
00:52:04,300 --> 00:52:06,100
made from is out there at some 
point. 

752
00:52:06,100 --> 00:52:09,300
Like, I remember we had active 
directory servers on premise, 

753
00:52:09,300 --> 00:52:10,700
right? 
It's like it's just, it's just 

754
00:52:10,700 --> 00:52:13,800
the way that things work, all, 
you've been really great through

755
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:14,800
time. 
I know we've only got a few 

756
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:16,700
minutes left with you. 
So I want to start to kind of 

757
00:52:16,700 --> 00:52:20,900
wrap things up and one of the 
ways we do that is to have a 

758
00:52:20,900 --> 00:52:24,100
little more fun conversation to 
kind of end this talk. 

759
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:29,100
So that wasn't fun. 
So is plenty of fun for 

760
00:52:29,100 --> 00:52:32,500
identical nerds like like you 
and me and Jim and probably the 

761
00:52:32,500 --> 00:52:36,600
people who are listening to the 
show for sure why. 

762
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:40,100
But you know, a little bit of a 
lighter note and we had a we had

763
00:52:40,100 --> 00:52:41,800
a pretty good conversation on 
Monday. 

764
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:44,400
As you were kind of prepping, 
you know for this call around 

765
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:47,200
photography and I forgot other 
things. 

766
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:49,500
We actually went down to pretty 
good rabbit hole of kind of like

767
00:52:49,500 --> 00:52:52,800
some of some more interest. 
So want to come up with 

768
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:55,800
something different for today 
and that Is here's the question 

769
00:52:55,800 --> 00:53:01,100
for you if you could instantly 
become an expert in something, 

770
00:53:01,500 --> 00:53:03,400
not identity related. 
Okay. 

771
00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:05,200
I know that's probably going to 
be your number one choice. 

772
00:53:06,100 --> 00:53:07,800
What would it be? 
Yeah. 

773
00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:14,300
Well my first reaction to that 
would be some kind of diplomacy 

774
00:53:14,700 --> 00:53:21,600
for diplomatic genius. 
That could solve conflict in the

775
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:24,300
world but let's not dwell on 
that in. 

776
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:30,700
Instead, I've always been 
fascinated by economics and I 

777
00:53:30,700 --> 00:53:36,600
find, I would love to be expert 
in, I'd love to be an economist 

778
00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:43,700
but to the level of, you know, 
someone well I'm trying to think

779
00:53:43,700 --> 00:53:46,900
of a famous economist but 
someone that is, you know, 

780
00:53:47,700 --> 00:53:52,800
internationally-renowned but 
also I just think the way 

781
00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:58,500
economies work or don't work. 
The way that everything affects 

782
00:53:58,500 --> 00:54:03,700
everything else, the you know, 
profit and loss market, supply 

783
00:54:03,700 --> 00:54:06,300
and demand. 
Why things go up why they'd go 

784
00:54:06,300 --> 00:54:09,400
down? 
All that stuff is is I mean I've

785
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:13,500
tried I've ripped economic 
textbooks and come out more 

786
00:54:13,500 --> 00:54:19,500
confused and before. 
So and I once saw a documentary 

787
00:54:19,500 --> 00:54:23,600
on TV about and I think that the
message was that he kind of is 

788
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:28,500
don't really And it either. 
But they did the best they get. 

789
00:54:28,700 --> 00:54:32,500
Yeah, they do the best they can.
But sometimes they think the 

790
00:54:32,500 --> 00:54:35,800
economy is a kind of a 
self-governing or 

791
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:41,300
self-perpetuating machine that 
we actually don't control. 

792
00:54:42,100 --> 00:54:45,400
So you know, how does how does 
inflation start and how does it 

793
00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:48,900
get out of control? 
All that stuff is is 

794
00:54:48,900 --> 00:54:51,900
fascinating. 
So I'd love to be able to, you 

795
00:54:51,900 --> 00:54:56,600
know, give answers on that. 
But some yeah and also I'd 

796
00:54:56,600 --> 00:55:01,500
probably be a lot richer. 
I think I like how you put that 

797
00:55:01,500 --> 00:55:03,900
towards the end of the answer 
because that's immediately. 

798
00:55:03,900 --> 00:55:06,200
I was like it was like okay yeah
like if I'm going to be proud of

799
00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:09,200
me I'm probably you know doing 
doing pretty well for myself. 

800
00:55:09,200 --> 00:55:12,200
I think it's a fascinating 
subject for sure because they 

801
00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:16,000
think it's you know there's 
obviously you know the financial

802
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:19,200
aspect of it knowing how 
Financial Vehicles work right? 

803
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:22,800
Whatever that looks like. 
But also psychology of humans 

804
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:27,200
and you're Trying to predict 
human behavior, what's going to 

805
00:55:27,207 --> 00:55:32,200
happen if you know? 
Well if a boat in the Atlantic 

806
00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:35,500
catches fire, where the whole 
bunch of you know sports cars on

807
00:55:35,500 --> 00:55:39,200
it, not that that didn't happen 
recently right in the world. 

808
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:42,500
Like, what does that mean, right
for the economy of those 

809
00:55:42,500 --> 00:55:45,300
companies or wherever they were 
intended, things like that. 

810
00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:46,700
Yeah, for sure. 
I'm way. 

811
00:55:47,100 --> 00:55:53,300
Why does war cause stock markets
to go down and pandemics while I

812
00:55:53,300 --> 00:55:57,500
guess the obvious answer is? 
Because industry won't function 

813
00:55:57,500 --> 00:56:02,800
and cetera. 
But you know, it's just a whole 

814
00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:09,800
world is governed by economics 
and you know our system of way, 

815
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:13,300
our whole way of living and you 
know most of us don't really 

816
00:56:13,300 --> 00:56:17,300
understand how it work. 
I don't even get like I remember

817
00:56:17,300 --> 00:56:22,600
School the teacher was like, 
couldn't understand how why I 

818
00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:28,100
couldn't understand how money. 
Could be electronic and if you 

819
00:56:28,100 --> 00:56:31,800
don't have the cash in your 
hand, I thought what how can all

820
00:56:31,800 --> 00:56:34,800
these numbers get transferred 
from one account to another? 

821
00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:37,400
Where's the actual money using 
this? 

822
00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:41,700
What the old days that you'd 
show up and like, here's, you 

823
00:56:41,707 --> 00:56:43,300
know, here's a pouch full of 
coins. 

824
00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:45,300
Yeah. 
That should do it and it wasn't 

825
00:56:45,300 --> 00:56:47,700
even like you knew what the 
amount was like, yes, feels 

826
00:56:47,700 --> 00:56:49,500
about right. 
Let's go and do our things. 

827
00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:52,800
Yeah. 
But I, you know, even now I 

828
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:54,900
still think like everyone. 
Forget it. 

829
00:56:55,200 --> 00:57:00,700
Get a statement was the numbers 
on and that converts into pounds

830
00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:06,300
but nothing ever changes hands 
and you know, it that's that's 

831
00:57:06,300 --> 00:57:10,900
the one thing that really bugs 
me is that's fundamentally the 

832
00:57:10,900 --> 00:57:13,800
way the whole system works is 
just stuff being transferred 

833
00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:15,800
from one place to another and 
it's all numbers. 

834
00:57:17,900 --> 00:57:20,600
Yeah, you know. 
That's and that's and that's 

835
00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:22,800
that's what wealth is, you know,
or lack of it. 

836
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:28,000
So And now, in Britain, we 
almost literally, almost have a 

837
00:57:28,008 --> 00:57:32,100
cashless Society. 
Thanks to the covid thing. 

838
00:57:32,100 --> 00:57:35,000
People didn't want to carry 
change anymore. 

839
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:39,400
So now we have the technology to
bypass that. 

840
00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:43,500
And so now virtually everything 
is paid for with card or phone. 

841
00:57:43,700 --> 00:57:47,300
It's quite a. 
Yeah. 

842
00:57:47,300 --> 00:57:53,300
Last year, was the first time 
that I can confidently, say, the

843
00:57:53,300 --> 00:57:57,700
year 2021. 
I did not use cash or coins for 

844
00:57:57,700 --> 00:57:59,200
anything. 
Yeah. 

845
00:57:59,700 --> 00:58:03,600
Every purchase that I made last 
year involved, electronic 

846
00:58:03,800 --> 00:58:05,500
transfer of funds. 
I didn't know. 

847
00:58:05,500 --> 00:58:08,200
I still have the same currency 
in my wallet. 

848
00:58:08,700 --> 00:58:10,500
I've never even been to the 
bank, you know? 

849
00:58:10,500 --> 00:58:13,000
I mean, it's a really 
interesting time which I love 

850
00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:14,700
because I think you know, I 
think it's great from an 

851
00:58:14,707 --> 00:58:17,800
efficiency standpoint, but it 
certainly is an interesting time

852
00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:20,200
to be alive if, you know. 
Yeah. 

853
00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:24,100
If that concerns people and 
isn't it also? 

854
00:58:24,500 --> 00:58:29,400
Like this pandemic has happened 
at a time when we're Advanced 

855
00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:35,400
enough to carry on pretty well, 
you know, we had thanks to our 

856
00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:40,000
it, that we could work remotely,
we could do stuff like this. 

857
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:44,900
We have payment systems that 
don't require physical activity 

858
00:58:44,900 --> 00:58:48,400
and so on. 
So yeah, I wonder what a 

859
00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:51,600
pandemic would be. 
Well, we know that we are in, do

860
00:58:51,600 --> 00:58:55,400
it, you know, the Spanish Flu I 
guess was A very different 

861
00:58:55,400 --> 00:58:59,600
experience of people. 
So, yeah, there, I've got a book

862
00:58:59,600 --> 00:59:01,400
to actually become reward. 
It's cool. 

863
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:06,000
But it's it's nice to dip into 
now and again because it kind of

864
00:59:06,400 --> 00:59:12,200
provides an antidote to all the 
Gloom you know, with you know 

865
00:59:12,200 --> 00:59:17,600
global warming war everything 
else going on crazy politicians,

866
00:59:17,600 --> 00:59:19,900
that actually a lot. 
A lot that's happening in the 

867
00:59:19,908 --> 00:59:22,100
world is is far better, you 
know. 

868
00:59:22,100 --> 00:59:24,200
We're in a better State than we 
think we are. 

869
00:59:24,500 --> 00:59:28,000
You know, we've we've got rid of
a lot of illness, there's more 

870
00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:32,200
democracy there is actually less
war and things like that. 

871
00:59:32,200 --> 00:59:37,600
So I keep that by the bed, I 
like the positive outlook on 

872
00:59:37,600 --> 00:59:40,300
things, they think that's that. 
We sometimes lose sight of all 

873
00:59:40,300 --> 00:59:43,400
the, the bad news had side. 
There is plenty of good in the 

874
00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:46,400
world. 
Jim, if you could become a 

875
00:59:46,400 --> 00:59:49,100
instant expert in something, 
what would it be? 

876
00:59:49,900 --> 00:59:53,400
I will weigh in on the economics
too much because I could turn 

877
00:59:53,400 --> 00:59:55,300
this very gloomy. 
Very quickly. 

878
00:59:56,200 --> 01:00:00,500
I do use cash. 
So by the way, and I don't think

879
01:00:00,500 --> 01:00:05,200
that saves me from, you know, 
any kind of potential economic 

880
01:00:05,200 --> 01:00:08,600
collapse that could take place. 
But as things become more 

881
01:00:08,600 --> 01:00:13,700
computerized, it's not just, you
know, ransomware that is our 

882
01:00:13,700 --> 01:00:16,600
issue. 
There are state-sponsored 

883
01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:21,100
attacks that are possible. 
I mean, there is zero, day bugs 

884
01:00:21,100 --> 01:00:24,200
that are found all the time that
all the financial institutions. 

885
01:00:24,300 --> 01:00:29,200
Institutions, Global financial 
institutions count on Commercial

886
01:00:29,200 --> 01:00:32,500
software and it's very 
vulnerable. 

887
01:00:32,900 --> 01:00:37,600
I think of the big picture, if 
we went to war with Russia or 

888
01:00:37,600 --> 01:00:41,000
China. 
The so that's my concern on that

889
01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:43,400
front so there's your Gloom. 
I said I wasn't going to do it 

890
01:00:43,400 --> 01:00:45,800
but I did it anyway. 
Thanks for thanks for waiting Us

891
01:00:45,800 --> 01:00:47,700
in the geopolitical power 
struggles. 

892
01:00:48,100 --> 01:00:52,100
How about something else? 
Okay, so what I Look to this 

893
01:00:52,100 --> 01:00:55,000
question from a couple of angles
and one of the anger This was 

894
01:00:55,500 --> 01:00:58,700
what I do already. 
What do I find interesting? 

895
01:00:58,700 --> 01:01:04,000
I spend my time researching 
because sure would be great to, 

896
01:01:04,200 --> 01:01:07,600
you know, if I think if you're 
doing it for free you'd love to 

897
01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:14,100
do it as a career and so or even
as a career, but just to be an 

898
01:01:14,100 --> 01:01:18,200
expert on and the topic I came 
up with what number one was 

899
01:01:18,200 --> 01:01:20,900
longevity. 
And so from a longevity 

900
01:01:20,900 --> 01:01:23,800
standpoint is what are the 
things that you can do too? 

901
01:01:24,300 --> 01:01:29,500
Get the most out of this human 
form that we have to both make 

902
01:01:29,500 --> 01:01:33,900
it live longer but also have a 
higher quality of life, you know

903
01:01:33,900 --> 01:01:37,900
from a physical perspective. 
Also from, you know, your mind 

904
01:01:37,900 --> 01:01:42,800
operating at a peak capacity and
gave the most of the time that 

905
01:01:42,800 --> 01:01:47,100
you have your on Earth. 
And so, you know, I think one of

906
01:01:47,107 --> 01:01:51,900
the challenges with longevity 
though, is, it's just like 

907
01:01:51,900 --> 01:01:53,900
sighs. 
So I think that, you know, that 

908
01:01:53,900 --> 01:01:58,700
we've had Mantra in the world of
I follow the science, I follow 

909
01:01:58,700 --> 01:02:01,900
the science. 
Well, science only knows what 

910
01:02:01,900 --> 01:02:05,200
science knows. 
And usually what science knows 

911
01:02:05,200 --> 01:02:08,500
is the result of studies. 
So if this studies were never 

912
01:02:08,500 --> 01:02:13,300
done and by the way, studies are
usually done to generate a 

913
01:02:13,308 --> 01:02:16,900
profit, not always right there. 
Are some studies that are funded

914
01:02:16,900 --> 01:02:19,700
by institutions just to see how 
things work. 

915
01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:24,600
But a lot of the studies that 
are done are done to test Staff 

916
01:02:24,600 --> 01:02:28,600
pharmaceutical, you know, will 
this pharmaceutical result in, 

917
01:02:29,100 --> 01:02:32,300
you know, X Y, & Z and therefore
we can sell it and make a ton of

918
01:02:32,300 --> 01:02:34,700
profit. 
So there's a lot of studies that

919
01:02:34,700 --> 01:02:36,900
are never done. 
So, so science only knows what 

920
01:02:36,900 --> 01:02:39,200
science knows. 
And that's kind of the 

921
01:02:39,200 --> 01:02:44,200
limitations I think of longevity
is now we have these, you know, 

922
01:02:44,200 --> 01:02:46,800
forty studies that were were 
done. 

923
01:02:46,800 --> 01:02:52,000
And somebody wrote a paper to 
pull it all together and, you 

924
01:02:52,008 --> 01:02:54,100
know, this is what we can infer 
from all these. 

925
01:02:54,300 --> 01:02:57,900
Rat studies of people, taking 
turmeric or rats, eating 

926
01:02:57,900 --> 01:03:02,600
tumeric, they live 20% longer 
and that's it's just Ali should 

927
01:03:02,600 --> 01:03:04,900
be given so we're supposed to do
that. 

928
01:03:05,300 --> 01:03:08,000
Yeah, well you know, it's not 
one. 

929
01:03:08,200 --> 01:03:10,800
Wait, you studied rats or you've
taken turmeric, you know, I've 

930
01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:13,900
done the tumeric. 
Yeah, well yeah, because I 

931
01:03:13,900 --> 01:03:18,100
believed the, you know, stuff I 
read on social media and you 

932
01:03:18,100 --> 01:03:21,500
know, like all those things I 
gave up after a few weeks 

933
01:03:21,500 --> 01:03:24,000
because it could be bothered, 
it's a lot of money. 

934
01:03:24,200 --> 01:03:26,900
It's a lot of money to take all 
these things and plus they all 

935
01:03:26,900 --> 01:03:29,700
have side effects, right? 
So if you take a lot of 

936
01:03:29,700 --> 01:03:34,100
turmeric, then I mean for me at 
least it's like kind of gives me

937
01:03:34,100 --> 01:03:36,700
a sour stomach if I take too 
much of it. 

938
01:03:36,700 --> 01:03:40,300
So you know, and I do take a ton
of pills and spend a bunch of 

939
01:03:40,300 --> 01:03:42,700
money on it and I get excited 
about these things. 

940
01:03:43,000 --> 01:03:44,900
They also rely put a disclaimer 
here, right? 

941
01:03:44,900 --> 01:03:46,700
You should not be coming to the 
identity of the sender. 

942
01:03:46,700 --> 01:03:51,200
Podcast for medical advice. 
Please carry on please carry on.

943
01:03:51,300 --> 01:03:54,100
So the long and short of it 
though is exactly. 

944
01:03:54,300 --> 01:03:56,600
To that point. 
I'm not a doctor. 

945
01:03:56,600 --> 01:03:59,800
So then you start reading these 
these articles about how these 

946
01:03:59,800 --> 01:04:02,200
things work on. 
Just like, I'm too confused. 

947
01:04:02,200 --> 01:04:04,800
So I need somebody to explain to
me. 

948
01:04:05,000 --> 01:04:08,200
So if I could become an instant 
expert on something, I think it 

949
01:04:08,200 --> 01:04:12,000
would be longevity. 
Now, at the same time, we're not

950
01:04:12,000 --> 01:04:14,900
looking at the instant expert of
like because I can say, oh, I 

951
01:04:14,900 --> 01:04:17,700
would like to be an instant 
expert in Bitcoin that's still 

952
01:04:17,700 --> 01:04:20,400
not going to tell me where 
Bitcoins going to be two years 

953
01:04:20,400 --> 01:04:23,300
from now. 
So if I was to you know, and I'm

954
01:04:23,300 --> 01:04:26,400
trying to advise Sighs. 
My son, who is a junior in high 

955
01:04:26,400 --> 01:04:30,500
school, getting ready to go into
college and I'm saying, what 

956
01:04:30,500 --> 01:04:33,600
should he major in? 
What should he and? 

957
01:04:33,700 --> 01:04:36,000
And I that's the type to tell 
them what to do, but I'm going 

958
01:04:36,000 --> 01:04:39,500
to give him my my life 
experience and then let him take

959
01:04:39,500 --> 01:04:44,100
that as one of the inputs, I 
think computer coding computer 

960
01:04:44,100 --> 01:04:46,800
science which is a focus on 
development, right? 

961
01:04:46,800 --> 01:04:49,800
They have now information 
technology and computer science 

962
01:04:49,800 --> 01:04:52,200
are different tracks and 
information security. 

963
01:04:52,400 --> 01:04:54,100
That's an information 
technology. 

964
01:04:54,500 --> 01:04:58,500
Lot of information, technology 
courses are like networking and 

965
01:04:58,700 --> 01:05:00,700
these things that I'm thinking 
about. 

966
01:05:00,700 --> 01:05:03,100
Maybe it's because I specialize 
in those days and like that 

967
01:05:03,100 --> 01:05:05,000
stuff's easy. 
You don't need to go to college 

968
01:05:05,000 --> 01:05:07,900
to learn that stuff. 
The computer science, if you can

969
01:05:07,900 --> 01:05:12,000
take four years and really focus
on how to code and how to 

970
01:05:12,000 --> 01:05:16,900
architect applications, you 
won't go hungry in this world, 

971
01:05:16,900 --> 01:05:20,800
right? 
That is a great basis to build 

972
01:05:20,800 --> 01:05:24,500
whatever career you build. 
So to me, that's Right? 

973
01:05:24,500 --> 01:05:28,600
If I was 18, again, that's what 
I would get into is a computer 

974
01:05:28,600 --> 01:05:30,500
science program. 
Yeah. 

975
01:05:30,500 --> 01:05:31,400
What about you? 
Jeff? 

976
01:05:32,200 --> 01:05:35,100
I just want to point out, you 
absolutely crush the longevity 

977
01:05:35,100 --> 01:05:37,400
Thing by with that answer. 
So I can see where that would 

978
01:05:37,400 --> 01:05:40,200
have been your been, your first 
choice. 

979
01:05:40,600 --> 01:05:44,300
I'm going to keep it simple 
because I wish I could play a 

980
01:05:44,300 --> 01:05:47,900
musical, instrument guitar, 
piano, something like that. 

981
01:05:47,900 --> 01:05:50,200
Be an expert musician at 
something. 

982
01:05:50,200 --> 01:05:52,900
It's something that I've toyed 
around with, in the past and 

983
01:05:52,900 --> 01:05:55,100
obviously, we're not obviously, 
But you know, when I was younger

984
01:05:55,100 --> 01:05:58,700
try to get into it but I've just
never been musically inclined, 

985
01:05:58,900 --> 01:06:02,800
can't get my fingers to do the, 
you know, the Frets and the and 

986
01:06:02,800 --> 01:06:04,700
the chord shapes and things like
that in the guitars. 

987
01:06:04,700 --> 01:06:06,200
Haven't really sat down at the 
piano and like that. 

988
01:06:06,200 --> 01:06:10,100
So I'm going to keep mine 
positive and simple and say hey 

989
01:06:10,100 --> 01:06:13,700
I wish I could you know be an 
expert on an instrument let's 

990
01:06:13,700 --> 01:06:16,900
just say guitar because I think 
I've always been Keen to try to 

991
01:06:16,900 --> 01:06:22,200
learn that so so yeah. 
We've gone very long much longer

992
01:06:22,200 --> 01:06:27,900
than we normally do but it was a
great Station longevity as part 

993
01:06:27,900 --> 01:06:31,200
of it as well. 
Before we wrap up, I want to 

994
01:06:31,207 --> 01:06:37,200
give Paul a 30-second window 
here to any final thoughts as 

995
01:06:37,200 --> 01:06:40,300
far as the conversation and then
in addition to that, if there's 

996
01:06:40,300 --> 01:06:43,800
anything else that's coming up, 
I know that the European 

997
01:06:43,800 --> 01:06:47,000
identity conference is coming 
up, I think it may or may be 

998
01:06:47,008 --> 01:06:50,100
some other blogs or webinars 
that might be coming through. 

999
01:06:50,400 --> 01:06:52,500
The floor is yours Paul. 
Yo. 

1000
01:06:52,900 --> 01:06:55,900
Thanks Jeff. 
Well, it's been a pleasure, I 

1001
01:06:55,908 --> 01:07:00,200
should say and I hope I haven't 
confused people even more than 

1002
01:07:00,400 --> 01:07:05,600
they were before they list 
started to listen, there is you 

1003
01:07:05,600 --> 01:07:10,100
say cic, European identity 
conference, which is now coming 

1004
01:07:10,100 --> 01:07:14,900
up for its 20th year. 
I think it's happening, May from

1005
01:07:14,900 --> 01:07:17,700
made a ninth to the 13th in 
Berlin. 

1006
01:07:18,700 --> 01:07:27,100
So if it's the registration is 
open now, It's also if you go to

1007
01:07:27,100 --> 01:07:31,100
our website could bring a cold 
opcom, go to a I see there is 

1008
01:07:31,900 --> 01:07:35,800
some blogs there, there's one 
that's been just been published 

1009
01:07:35,800 --> 01:07:39,900
by Martin Martin cooking, her 
all about the identity fabric 

1010
01:07:40,200 --> 01:07:46,700
which goes into a lot more 
detail than than I did, which is

1011
01:07:46,700 --> 01:07:51,500
well worth a read. 
There's modesty doesn't prevent 

1012
01:07:51,500 --> 01:07:54,000
me from saying that there's a 
Blog by me as well. 

1013
01:07:54,200 --> 01:07:55,700
On there. 
Should you want to read that? 

1014
01:07:55,800 --> 01:08:01,700
But there are several 
interesting bits there. 

1015
01:08:03,200 --> 01:08:06,100
That's that's the main thing and
as I said it's the European 

1016
01:08:06,100 --> 01:08:09,300
identity conference has become 
probably the biggest conference 

1017
01:08:09,300 --> 01:08:12,500
devoted just to Identity 
certainly in Europe. 

1018
01:08:14,000 --> 01:08:18,000
So yeah I hope anyone that's in 
Europe at that time would we'd 

1019
01:08:18,000 --> 01:08:23,600
like to see you thankfully now 
looks like it's going to be you 

1020
01:08:23,600 --> 01:08:27,700
know, fully As in real, people 
are going to be there. 

1021
01:08:27,700 --> 01:08:31,700
So but we will there is still 
the virtual option for anyone 

1022
01:08:31,700 --> 01:08:35,300
that wants that as well. 
So that's the main thing I think

1023
01:08:35,300 --> 01:08:40,000
I've done my my job there and 
promoting that so, and as I 

1024
01:08:40,000 --> 01:08:42,399
said, look out for the 
leadership, compass on dream 

1025
01:08:43,200 --> 01:08:45,500
around about the same time, very
cool. 

1026
01:08:45,500 --> 01:08:49,700
And I have a link to Career call
as well as a link to that 

1027
01:08:50,399 --> 01:08:54,000
identity Fabrics, article or 
blog that that Martin wrote In 

1028
01:08:54,100 --> 01:08:56,600
The show notes so people in 
check it out but yeah check out 

1029
01:08:56,600 --> 01:09:00,899
at Commander col.com also have a
link to Paul's LinkedIn. 

1030
01:09:01,700 --> 01:09:04,300
Hopefully Paul you're open to 
you know, getting connections 

1031
01:09:04,300 --> 01:09:07,100
are folks out there and and 
interacting job. 

1032
01:09:07,100 --> 01:09:12,800
Well absolutely, yeah LinkedIn 
is is is a challenge these days.

1033
01:09:12,800 --> 01:09:16,899
I'm sure, you know but if you 
can avoid some of that it still 

1034
01:09:17,000 --> 01:09:20,700
I still love to talk to people 
on LinkedIn from this community.

1035
01:09:20,700 --> 01:09:25,000
So yeah, yeah, Jim and I to Jim 
and he I thought so before we 

1036
01:09:25,000 --> 01:09:29,300
wrap up this week just pooping 
or cold just a fantastic job. 

1037
01:09:29,300 --> 01:09:33,899
So I S getting out there signing
up getting on their you know 

1038
01:09:33,899 --> 01:09:39,300
their newsletters you get links 
to a lot of free webinars and 

1039
01:09:39,300 --> 01:09:42,200
the ability to get great 
information. 

1040
01:09:42,200 --> 01:09:46,100
They also have a fantastic 
podcast so don't mind pumping 

1041
01:09:46,100 --> 01:09:49,200
that a little bit. 
Matthias does a really good job 

1042
01:09:49,200 --> 01:09:52,500
but that podcast and yeah I 
guess I just wish you guys had 

1043
01:09:52,500 --> 01:09:57,000
an American Identity conference 
and in the meantime, Jeff, I 

1044
01:09:57,000 --> 01:09:59,400
think we should put it into go 
to the European one. 

1045
01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:04,400
That would I'd be willing to put
a mask on and get on an airplane

1046
01:10:04,400 --> 01:10:07,000
for eight hours for that. 
What do you say, I'm totally 

1047
01:10:07,000 --> 01:10:10,000
down. 
I've never my only journey into 

1048
01:10:10,000 --> 01:10:13,200
Germany was Frankfurt, airport, 
and that's it. 

1049
01:10:13,200 --> 01:10:16,800
So I've never actually had, you 
know, on the ground experience. 

1050
01:10:16,800 --> 01:10:20,000
I would totally be up for that, 
but we'll have to see how things

1051
01:10:20,000 --> 01:10:23,600
go I think as the world 
continues to open up here, so 

1052
01:10:23,600 --> 01:10:24,600
I'm all-in. 
For it though. 

1053
01:10:24,600 --> 01:10:27,600
I'm glad to see more things 
becoming live. 

1054
01:10:27,600 --> 01:10:30,300
You know, as long as people are 
safe and healthy, you know, I'm 

1055
01:10:30,300 --> 01:10:33,400
all favor for it. 
Alright, let's go ahead and wrap

1056
01:10:33,400 --> 01:10:35,200
it up there. 
I know this is a kind of a one 

1057
01:10:35,200 --> 01:10:38,700
of our longer ones, but I really
enjoyed the conversation. 

1058
01:10:38,800 --> 01:10:40,800
You know, Paul. 
Thank you so much for being a 

1059
01:10:41,300 --> 01:10:44,400
part of a part of that 
conversation with us from from 

1060
01:10:44,400 --> 01:10:45,300
our perspective. 
Right? 

1061
01:10:45,300 --> 01:10:47,900
You know, feel free to check us 
out on the web where idac 

1062
01:10:47,900 --> 01:10:52,500
podcast.com, we're on Twitter 
at, idac podcast and Jim and I 

1063
01:10:52,508 --> 01:10:54,000
recently started doing a live 
stream. 

1064
01:10:54,100 --> 01:10:58,400
Mmmmm every week roughly on 
YouTube which you can find us at

1065
01:10:58,400 --> 01:11:00,400
idac dot live. 
They'll take your right to our 

1066
01:11:00,400 --> 01:11:05,100
YouTube channel and, you know, 
it's I won't say it's less 

1067
01:11:05,100 --> 01:11:06,700
prepared. 
It's, you know, more 

1068
01:11:06,700 --> 01:11:10,400
freewheeling opinion, kind of 
whatever is for the moment for 

1069
01:11:10,400 --> 01:11:12,400
whatever we decide to figure out
where we're going to talk about 

1070
01:11:12,400 --> 01:11:15,600
at that time. 
So, you know, that's the kind of

1071
01:11:15,608 --> 01:11:18,400
conversation we try to get into.
So hopefully people will kind of

1072
01:11:18,407 --> 01:11:22,100
check that out and And subscribe
to the podcast to the YouTube 

1073
01:11:22,100 --> 01:11:25,200
channel, those sorts of things. 
So with that, We'll go ahead and

1074
01:11:25,200 --> 01:11:27,300
leave it for this week. 
Thanks Paul. 

1075
01:11:27,300 --> 01:11:30,100
Thanks Jim and thank you for 
listening and we'll talk with 

1076
01:11:30,100 --> 01:11:37,300
everyone in the next one. 
Thanks for listening to the 

1077
01:11:37,300 --> 01:11:40,100
identity at the center podcast. 
If you like what you heard, 

1078
01:11:40,100 --> 01:11:43,400
don't forget to subscribe and 
visit us on the web and identity

1079
01:11:43,400 --> 01:11:44,600
at the center.com.