You're listening to the identity of the center podcast, this is
the show that talks about identity and access management
and making sure you know who has access to what let's get
started. Welcome to the identity, the
center podcast I'm Jeff and that's Jim.
Hey, Jim. Hey, Jeff, how are you?
Oh, not so bad yourself doing great.
So I took a picture of the tagline for the octane 22
conference where we are today. It was identity, belongs to you,
I posted it to LinkedIn. Ask people what it meant them.
I'm hoping that folks can think about that and maybe add a
comment to that post. Yeah that is definitely the
tagline for here. We are at Octane 22 Death.
Want to give a shout-out to OCTA.
Definitely hooking us up with this.
Nice, little room that we're in. We've got some folks in here.
We're going to in a second but shout out to Aqua team for
helping us out and definitely obviously for our SM, for
funding to travel. So with that little bit of Blur,
by the way, let's get to our guests in the room.
We've got Eugenio Pace. He's the president of customer
identity at a doctor, a doctor and Chef Ramsay.
Who's the chief product officer. At customer identity, at OCTA.
Welcome to the show, guys. Thank you for having me.
Yeah, so let's start with shiv one of the things we always like
to find it, you know, kind of find out is the identity origin
story. So, how did you get into the
identity world? Is it something that Shows.
Or did it choose you? And we'll start with you, Shiva.
Then we'll go to you Eugenio. I mean, I certainly didn't
choose identity, that's for sure.
And I think I accidentally ended up in the item in the world.
So started about, you know, 15 16 17 years ago, started as an
engineer and my first project that I worked on as an engineer
was to build a single, sign-on portal, kind of what we take for
granted. And we get out of the box today
from OCTA, was not the case. So, at the time I was working
for Nielsen. This is the TV ratings company,
and so, yes, I built the first single sound portal for the
field operations team. And so had first-hand knowledge
of building something like that. And so, that's the origin.
But over the years, I've just been a downstream consumer of
identity information, or I did with it was marketing
advertising, cloud computing. And then, about three years ago,
you hand your genuine Matthias reached out and said, hey, we're
building this thing to solve identity and would love for you
to join us on this journey. And I was like, yes.
I know that problem because I worked on in many, many years
ago. So, That really helped and
that's how I ended up here. So you're my best decisions,
isn't it? Great, when you find white
people just out in the world it just fit right naturally.
And it's like, yes, like we've done.
All the difference, makes all the difference for me.
Identity is also like a story of identity finding me and
Serendipity. I'm a developer.
I'm engineer as well. I was working for for Microsoft
and Microsoft was working in the in what eventually became.
Microsoft azure. And my job was part of the
visual studio team and so tools and Frameworks for developers.
And my my boss at the time said, like, you have to go and find
anything that stands in the way for developers to build in the
cloud and it was like a new paradigm.
And so I started doing research, you know, how things are
different. The network the latency, the
deployment infrastructure, everything is somewhat
different, and I quickly realized that, Identity
management was a big obstacle for building in the cloud or
moving applications to the cloud.
And so the that was the start of the journey and since then, you
know, here we are octane 22. So, and you mentioned Microsoft,
we've had Vittorio Bertolucci on, on our show multiple times.
He's a friend of the program. I understand you guys wrote a
book together which is not something that I think we knew
about until literally a couple minutes ago.
So what is what was that about? Yes, so So actually my very
first conversation about identity was with Victoria and
so I still remember Microsoft had this lab building 20 in the
campus. And we had like this, it was an
amazing place where you can experiment with technology and
brainstorm and I have this vivid memory of having like a wide, I
can massive whiteboard in the the great Vittorio style, you
know, like, great artistic Whiteboard.
And he explained to me, like how mother and identity works and,
you know, claims and Federation and how some all worked and
ws-trust. And all these protocols that
were was an entire world that I didn't know about.
So, when I was discovering this, this challenge, we captured all
the challenges in a little book that we call a third.
So, So, the writers of the book, was we toriel myself Matthias,
the founder of the other founder of a serum and a couple of our
other experts in the domain. And we published a book in 2009.
It was like a little very popular book, not the New York
Times, you know, bestseller list, but not yet.
We'll fix that on the shell. You know, it's on Amazon.
And so that was a big success in Microsoft.
Because it captured like in a, it was a concise and it was
like, I was like, at least of scenarios where identity was
really difficult to implement. You know, some sign on apis and
these and that was 2009. So I got to ask 2009 how much of
that content do you think it's still relevant today?
Or has it changed completely that?
You know, that 30% of it is we ignore longer valid or is it
less than that of their constants that were Well you
know that's a great question because it ties into the
timelessness of what we do. The solutions are different and
maybe we don't use WS Federation as much as we use it before and
maybe we make OCTA. We make some of those things
kind of irrelevant because it's not a no, no longer a concern,
which is part of our goal is to turn anybody in an expert
without being an expert. But the concepts the
architecture are Timeless and it's like those concepts are
still, I still send people. You know, if you go and search
on stack Overflow, which I every once in a while, I spend a few
minutes, you know, going around. I still answer questions on
identity and access management with chapters of the book and he
said, oh, you know, chapter one, we talked about claims and what
do they mean? And I got to tell you, that's
the ultimate copy/paste answer. I've answered the question for
ya. Just check out my book.
Yeah, well I'm not in your face but that's yeah, it's 22 cents
for copy. That gets sold.
The book is Free by the way. All right.
Download you can download it from for Microsoft.
Still today, a PDF, I'll find the link and I'll put in our
show notes so people can check it out.
By discrete the 2009 book was a success in 2011 we wrote another
edition of the same book which we creatively called Same title
second edition. And it was double the size.
And in fact, that was the Epiphany for what eventually
became zero. So interested in the origin
stories but we're here at the conference and so much is being
announced, and there's so much change going on so much
investment happening in the platform.
What are some of the, the key announcements that came out in
the conference this week that you guys are excited about that,
you want people to know about. I'll tell you, maybe the higher
level of the like the product strategy that we're following
and maybe she you can go deeper into this the specific
capabilities but the biggest announcement that we made is
that we we decided to tackle the market with specialized to
specialized offerings. And so one is the one that we
call the OCTA, Workforce, identity, cloud, and the other
one is, we're now calling the OCTA customer Entity Cloud,
which is essentially powered by the technology that we build are
all zero. And so we have these two things,
which solve the same underlying problem, which is figuring out,
who is a user and who isn't. But in a way that it's tailored
to different, use cases to different buyers to different
scenarios and they are, we are focused on solving those really,
really well. So that's kind of like the big
bigger than Announcement because there's like, there's like a
temptation to say, well, its identity.
Its authentication is the same thing.
For this have one thing that does, it does everything.
And it's like saying, you know, we need a car, you need Wheels,
it needs engines in its steering wheels and headlights.
But, you know, this minivans, and SUVs and sports cards and
Formula 1 racing cars, they all have wheels.
But they all have From purposes, and they've been sold to
different people. So he is, is the same.
The same concept. So, shiv, same question to you?
Yes. So I think going deeper into the
customer identity announcements. I think some are obvious that
that I think your listeners and even, you will have been
following for the last few months.
So we announced support Global support for passkeys, which will
come in Q2 of 2023. I think this, you know, again,
advances over story of providing a password this experience.
So I think that's really big and impacts all of us as consumers
at the end of the day. We're also trying to solve for
authentication and highly regulated Industries, so think
of utilities Healthcare financial services.
And so we announced support for financial grade identity, which
is a suite of features and products that are going to be
released starting next next year, beginning of Q2 of Next
year and is essentially supporting a whole bunch of
protocols that allows companies that operate in highly regulated
Industries to essentially work with our products because is the
extra layers of security and and regulations that they have to
adhere to. So that's like a big thing we
and you know, it wouldn't be an identity conference or identity
announcement if it didn't include security, right.
So security is a big Focus throughout our stack, but
Perfectly. And now we announced the sick,
the availability of security Center.
The idea is basically in a lot of our customers sellers.
It's like, you know, I love your products, so easy to use, so
easy to get started. But like, how is my identity
infrastructure doing it, vis-à-vis security.
And of course, you know initially said, hey you can, you
can stream this information, whatever set, cops tool you're
using, you know, whether its data dogs, plunk, But a lot of
them are like can we just log in to your dashboard and see what's
going on with our implementation?
And So It Started from that idea, that, that you can have a
One Stop Shop from an identity perspective, and you can get all
the information that you, that you need.
So that's another big announcement, that security
Center. I saw yesterday in the
presentation anyway, that you were kind of leading.
And I gotta tell you, I'm a stickler for, like, little
details, a little flourishes. And for those who haven't seen
it, I would This is going to tell you how much of a nerd.
I am just the way the chart dynamically updates and has like
this subtle shift to the left over time.
I mean, just chefs kiss, like, that design is fantastic.
I would encourage people to go check it out.
I'm sure there's videos out there and stuff like that, but I
did sort of an heiress like I noticed the little details on
the design side of things. I was like, oh yeah, this is
like, if I were going to design something like that's the way I
would watch book, it's really well done.
So congratulation, thank you. Thank you.
So to really understand customer identity Cloud.
I think you have to go back to Canada or In story of auth0.
We'd love to get that as Jeff mentioned we've had Andres
Aguilar on the podcast, we've have Vittorio some kind of old
school ah zero people but you honey oh since we have you here
maybe you can kind of give us some of the history that made
all zero and leading into now being part of okhta customer,
identity Cloud. Yeah, sure.
Well, I mentioned the book and I, we talked about the book, the
second edition of the book, The Second Edition came I'm in 2011,
and as I mentioned, was double the size of the original one.
And so I kept, you know, I thought we can keep writing
about these and hoping people will find the book, it's freeze,
a PDF, read the book, and the sandable copy paste, the code in
the book into their own code, or we can just solve the problem.
And so, I applied for a job inside myself to do this.
To do what eventually became serum and naturally I did not
get the job which was probably one of the best gifts.
That Microsoft gave me among many others.
I'm really grateful to Microsoft in many, many ways but in 2012
my wife in her Infinite Wisdom. She said like well you're gonna
die one day regretting not doing this and it's worse to regret
something that And doing something and you know, if it
doesn't work right and fail, all right, try this.
You try. And so she she really gave me
the final push to to leave Microsoft, which was really
great for me. It was I was really happy there.
And in December of 2012, I gathered the last bit of
Courage, I resigned after 13 years at Microsoft and I started
at zero with Matthias, you know, one of the other authors I
couldn't afford Victoria so you know we couldn't convince him to
join right away, but that will take another couple of years but
we did it as well. And so we started the company
with the with the goal of essentially saying, let's all
the list of scenarios that you read in the book.
Let's have them as just like things that you we shape out of
the box. And so the in, in March of 2013,
we Got our first customer, which I was in charge of sales at that
time Matias was building stuff and I was like, you're in charge
of everything, right? And so, that's how we split the
our responsibilities. And I had this that time, I, we
had this like chatbot on the website and everybody who joined
their, I would reply instantaneously.
And, and, you know, I knew a few things about identity, so I
could provide like this great support and perspectives.
Everybody was very happy with free Consulting and this guy
calls me on Skype and you say I want to know how it works and we
need a Lil Bit of pair programming and over Skype and
at the end of that he say like I want to pay for this how much
and have no clue how much you charge him and say well $50 and
you say oh yeah that's too much. I'm fine. $50 $50 per month per
month. It's Rick / - okay This is
scription business that there's the foresight.
Yeah, okay. Good.
Yeah. So we negotiated a little bit
and we ended up in twenty seven dollars per month.
Don't ask me how we ended up on that number, but we have another
number, and I was so happy and I was ecstatic, you know, that, a
couple months later, we were already had a paying customer
and my wife comes and see what happened to say.
Well, we sold our first deal. Either, we have a customer
paying customer and she asked How much?
Yeah, and I said $27 per month
and she said you're going to need a lot of those and she wore
gentle pushing. Yes, yes, he keeps me.
You know, accountable. But anyway that was the start
and a couple months later we just to complete the story we
you know, also somewhat serendipitously.
A friend of mine was working in a big company.
He learned about what we're doing said, oh yeah, this is
actually exactly what we need here.
And so we that became our very first Enterprise deal and that
was like hundreds of dollars hundreds of thousands of
dollars. Sorry.
And so we had like the two data points, you know, the developer
working on, you know on his own pay-as-you-go you know credit
card all the way to Enterprise SC.
So security procurement on the other side of the spectrum.
And by, then we knew that we had something real, you know, like
we proved one point is appointed, anecdote, two data
points is aligned and you already have like a function
there and then we decided to go all-in and to grow the company.
And investors, get investors, we bootstrapped the company for one
year, we go. Investors, we hired Victoria.
We had other people to help us, you know, build what eventually
became 0 0. So cool.
And now you're part of okhta, I guess.
Tell me. How's that been going?
It's been a couple of years now, I believe anything that people
out there, you know, can take away his fans, kind of like
thinking about okay. Well, how has it actually been
working? Like is that it's turned the
customary, any Cloud, what our lessons learned or are things
like that you'd want to share Well, our journey was up to
actually has a very long story because, you know, in that year,
in 2013, about a half year in between the two deals.
The I got this call from random person that I didn't know, Todd
McKinnon and he introduced himself and say I'm tired, I'm
founder of okhta, I really like what you're doing and I mean,
looking at the website and the content and you should be
working with us. And I say, yeah, well that's
very flattering. But you know, we just started, I
have one customer or one-and-a-half customers and so
we, you know, I declined even the consideration but we
remained in contact over here, is over 10 years and then we
became friends and you know, we admired each other and we did we
solve the same problem, but for different people.
For different audiences in different ways and naturally,
over 18 years that perspective on the market state.
But what what what didn't change from the very beginning, is that
we had the same aspiration of what to build.
And so, you know, you heard taught yesterday say, you know,
what was, what was? I always confused, like, the two
visions because they are almost The same, you know, for us it
was secure access for everyone and in Octa is like provide
access for everyone to safely. Use any technology.
Yeah, they're so they're exactly the same.
And so coming together was really an opportunity of
realizing that future faster. Because, you know, if we had
gone, our separate ways for five years longer, 10 years longer,
we would have been like the true Nemesis like equal.
But now, we are an opportunity where we can combine forces, and
solve all these problems way, faster than on our own and
someone on the outside. Kind of looking in.
When this was happening, it struck me, is how complementary
the two organizations were I think at that time, you know,
OCTA was kind of known as the workforce.
Identity company and off, Sarah was very developer Focus, which
wind itself very well to the customer at any side.
Yep. And when the news broke, it was
like, well, yeah, no duh. But the totally makes sense,
like, why not do that? So it was, it was interesting
and to t'pol to follow the journey, and I've had
conversations with folks on both sides of this point.
Kind of helps us kind of put that into context.
So, yeah, it's been, it's been interesting even just from
outside. I'm sure there's great stories.
And inside, we won't get anybody in trouble or try to put in a
comfortable spots, but just as a cat as an observer From the
outside in space. It was just like, yeah.
And like, like I said, no duh. Well, he wasn't, he wasn't
unusual acquisition to because, you know, you might think.
Oh, well, it's a big company, acquiring a small company, but
we were not that small by then. And so, we're not the same
people start up, octo was 3,000 people.
When the acquisition happened, I don't see, there was a thousand
people and so, is it come on? Kind of like, you know, similar
Of course, we were like a couple of years behind were not a
public company, Revenue was smaller, obviously, but some of
the challenges is like how it's a big maneuver, you know.
It's not like a small thing with lot of people with a lot of
customers and and because we have customers that are were
using alt 04 Workforce and doctor had customers using their
technology for customer identity.
So, It's like these gray areas and you can make it work.
You know, you guys are experiencing this, it's
software. If you, like put enough effort
on it, you can make it do, whatever.
It doesn't mean that it's the right technology for The Right,
Use case, or the optimized use case.
And so, part of what we're going through in this 18 months.
It's like, figuring out our strengths, and our capabilities,
or where our technology compliments and we can connect
the dots. And yes over time we will there
will be a journey of of not Reinventing wheels and don't
need to be Reinventing. And so like an example that I
always use is today, we don't pay Amazon 04 or customer
identity and Workforce identity. There's one bill, you know, it's
OCTA and that gives us this economies of scale as we consume
way more and so we have a much bigger bill with a with Amazon
but it's one bill That is more efficient than having two
different bills. So just an update on how the
Acquisitions going. I mean, is it going as well as
you would expect? I mean everything we talked
about so far the sound a very positive would and Shiva, you
know, question to you as well. How is that acquisition going?
Yeah, so I can start, I think the, you know, one of the the
things that are going really, really well, honestly is from
the product team and the product and Technology strategy that we
have, we've sort of kept it intact.
Really, we've made no changes to the team or integrated the team.
So why is that important or relevant?
It really gives us the opportunity to continue to serve
the customers that we want to reserve.
It gives you a to accelerate some of the things we want to
accelerate. And it really allows us to
enhance the reach in some of the markets that we wanted to get
to. Like one example is we were
going to vote, we were gonna build solving, authorization is
highly regulated Industries but probably would have taken baby
steps to to get there. But now being part of okhta with
a global company, no Global sales force, we're kind of
accelerated because because those those regulated Industries
The customers are OCTA customers today so kind of accelerates
some of the market and the product needs that we had to do.
And so, so like I think those are those are some really
positive things and then the other area that I wanted to also
add in gave us this is now, we're in a place where thinking
about what are the things we need to interrupt together like
what should be working? Well, Across both clouds.
And so, I think you will see over the next few years.
Some really exciting things that one very simple example is OCTA,
has this workflows had used to have this halves, this workflows
product. The customer is love and we can
easily connect you to the customer identity cloud.
And now, customers get the benefit of two products that
they, they love using. So so yeah, I've been in the
customer, I am space for 20 years.
I've always Don't like the authentication side was well
solved. I felt like the identity
management side of consumer, kind of went back to the
customer, to do a lot of custom developed applications.
Like how do you want to let people register?
If you've got a delegated Administration kind of scenario.
Now, the workflows you can let the customer solve that all
within a low code no code environment, exactly exist.
So I think so, I think there's some there is a lot there
including In security and risk signals, obviously.
And I, and if you had watched the, the keynote yesterday, we
think we have something unique that we can do for SAS Builders,
or SAS application, Builders because we kind of, we now
represent both sides of the equation.
So you can really accelerate a lot of capabilities and
standards. And so, we're just, we're just
getting started with that. I'm just incredibly excited
about what we can do in the future.
Yeah, very cool also. Ecology like passkeys and you
know, you announce Fastpass here at the conference, seems to me
that that's not for customer or workforces for whatever wherever
you want to use those things, right?
So yes, yeah, I think if you look at like, passkeys, it
really should work in any scenario across devices, but
there is one difference, which is in a consumer use case you,
you know, you really want this ubiquitous access across across
all devices, across different browsers in a Workforce
scenario, similar. However, I think identity admins
or scissors or shears, they mow and I have a little more control
and policies overpass key. So I think there is a subtle
difference in the in how we implement it, but both both
clouds will be supporting it. And again, it really takes one
of the surface areas for a tax, which is passwords away, which
which is, which is exciting. So, what's next in the customer
identity space? I mean you guys have been doing
this for a while. What do you see coming up as
okay? Pass keys.
Are great, what's next? Now we're going to make things
easier. Better more secure, right?
Everything that goes along with that.
Yeah, so so I think the there are were watching a few Trends
and I'll just talk about to at one.
I'm more excited about, I think it has more legs than the other.
But the first one is is, you know, there is this
decentralized technologies that are building in.
So you hear a lot of noise and and excitement depending on who
you ask about web 3. So I think at the very least we
want to be a provider that Bridges, the Two Worlds, you
know, because I I think we take a position of it's all web to,
it's all web or web three. Frankly, the the thing we are
here to solve for is, were connecting so many different
Technologies and, and products. So it doesn't matter if it's
web-one web to web three, we want our stack, our Technologies
work across also bridging. Those will be, we're starting to
we've already started doing some of this lot of experiments.
So you can do like sign in with the theorem if you want it.
So that's one. The second one is, I think There
is still a bunch of identity data That's essential in
physical formats and in silos. So we think that will be like
the next wave. You know, think of your driver's
license, your passport, your birth certificate insurance
cards. There's so much data that still
in a physical format for a good reason.
By the way, if we can bring that online and and use verifiable
credentials. Now that we all have devices
with Biometrics, I think that would be be a really amazing and
frankly removes friction from our daily lives.
Imagine not having to remove your insurance card every time
you go to the doctor. Yeah I'm noticing some of that
Improvement coming in in small waves.
You know. I think example of it.
I've most recently had is the TSA going in to get through an
airport. Now, you don't actually have to
show your badge. I mean, your, your your ticket,
they're just looking at your ID and they've actually last summer
when to through TSA, I didn't you have to show my ID.
You had a camera set up and did a biometric of my face.
Now, I had to approve that from a privacy standpoint, yes, but
they were able to take my my facial Biometrics and map that
back that I had to take it for that day.
And they let me write through, I think it's very smartly, quite
clear, is doing, for example, and sometimes up for that, that
idea of a digital verified credential or identity is a big
part. I think, I believe of the
future. What I'm concerned about is the
the platform Is playing along with that, you've got Android,
you've got Apple historically, they don't really work well
together and trying to come up with something that works ends
up having half measures on one or the other.
So I'm you know, I'm excited about sort of the collaboration
that's going on Fido for example, where everyone's on
board correct. Love to see a similar kind of
concept where you know I'm a first class citizen if I have a
iPhone because I have, you know, X capability versus an Android
phone, which in the world. Far more than Apple users, come
down for that. And I think is that something
that concerns you as well? Or am I thinking about it?
Will happen. No, we it's less of a concern.
I think this is exactly why I act exists actually, because we
actually don't care what platform or stack your on.
We want to build a neutral and independent, a cloud that
essentially Works across all platforms and so you bring up a
very good point, okay? 84, all these Innovations are on
the iPhone. It works.
Well, if you're in the iPhone or apple ecosystem, what happens if
somebody in your family member is on Android?
And now they feel left out. So we want to make sure our
technology Works across platforms.
And I think that's exactly the reason why why OCTA is the
company to go solve a problem like this.
Because we care about all of these scenarios and we're not
preferential to one platform or another and we recognize that
these platforms Their own reasons to do, whatever they're
doing, which is fine, whatever choices they make.
And, you know, we're big proponents of Standards bodies
where we can advance for the entire industry and they'll be
cases where, if it's not moving as fast.
Well, we will go build some initial standards and and, and
and try to get adoption. So I think so.
So I think our technology actually becomes even more
relevant and even more powerful in a world where you have so
much. Each platform fragmentation.
We see this in our work lives, by the way, every day.
And so, when this shifts the consumer, same thing, will we
will try to solve it across platforms.
So I'm going to, we're going to wrap, start to wrap things up
because Magic Johnson is about to go on stage and I think we
all want to go see. We all want to see that
Mackenzie in the corner. She's a silent participant here.
She's got a thumb like Hirsch and I think yeah.
But we're going to end on a lighter note.
And you know the I'll pose this question to shift first and
we'll kind of go around the room that way if you It have any
person? Living living person for dinner.
Who would it be? Yeah.
So I'm a big Manchester United fan, which is an English
football and so sore. Eyes Alex Ferguson, who was a
coach for about 20, 24 years there, you know, I became a fan
since since he was a coach and so it would I would just love to
have a evening with him. I think there's a ton I could
learn from the years that He spent coaching these amazing
players and one, you know, 19 different trophies.
Is there a my first question that you would want to ask.
I'm just like it's like how do you manage all these egos?
Yeah you had me all about yourself.
Yeah. Well, you know in the 10 years
that we've been building or zero and now in my role here at OCTA,
I found another passion. You know, of Mines.
I'm an engineer, of course, I loved it.
Reggie and all of that stuff, but eventually I learned that my
product in building the company was actually building teams as
well. So very similar to what she was.
Describing actually, not not too long ago.
I read a biography of world leader that I admired a lot and
I liked her being in a very difficult role and I could see
with all, of course, the differences in scale and
complexity. I could see a lot of Rarities of
that and became a geek of leadership and and guiding
people into greatness. And so he's Angela Merkel.
I think she's a world-class leader and humble, and, you
know, probably no joke, leading, one of the biggest economies in
the world in a complicated world.
And so I would love to have dinner with her.
Yeah. No kidding.
It was a very stable environment with firm charge Jim.
How about yourself who you going to have over to get an answer,
kind of like shivs. So it's a professional athlete
and I thought about it from the standpoint of somebody who I
could learn from right, somebody who I'm kind of Awestruck by but
also somebody I could potentially influence and I
chose Aaron judge from the New York Yankees.
I'm big, New York Yankees fan. The guy had a phenomenal season
and it was his quote, unquote walk here, which means that he's
now a free agent and can sign with any team for as much money
as they're willing to offer. But I'd like to try to influence
them to do is stay with the New York Yankees as long as they're
going to give him the money. So yeah, that's that's my
answer. All right.
Well, you guys Good answers. My name is extremely specific.
I want to have dinner with George r.r., Martin author of
Game of Thrones and really asking about season 8.
Because I know that I look, I love all things Game of Thrones,
I thought it was. I'll I enjoyed it for what it
was to me. The series ended.
When Aria kills the night king. Sorry spoiler.
Right? It's probably for throughout
their and the next couple of episodes, were sort of very
quickly, trying to tie it up and I want to know, sort of what was
the real. Finding here.
Like, what is he thinking about? Because he is still writing the
book years later. Yeah, we haven't seen it.
So I'm curious just from a I want to close the loop on that
one. So you guys give good answers?
I got the stupid answer but that's what I want to have.
No no I think that's good answer to and you know it's probably
like HBO said. All right we need to wrap this
thing up morsi's this it. Yeah absolutely speaking to wrap
things up, let's go ahead and do that now.
Thank you guys so much for being part of this.
I know you guys are super busy, you have presenting and you got
ahold of a lot of Demands on our time.
So we definitely appreciate. Taking this step for us.
And shout out to Mackenzie sitting across here for helping
coordinate everything. And so the entire octave team,
right, being able to help us out and support us to this, as well
as our SM, we are going to go ahead and leave it.
Go talk to Magic Johnson, you can find us on the web.
I'd any of the center.com or on Twitter at idea.
See podcast and thanks everyone for listening and we'll talk
with you all in the next one. Thanks for listening to the
identity at the center podcast. If you like what you heard,
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