1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:03,960 I wonder who's on the IAM or identity? 2 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:07,600 Mount Rushmore, which means four people. 3 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:14,120 First of all, I want a much bigger mountain so we can get 4 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:16,800 more people on. That's a that's a really, wow, 5 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:18,440 that's a tough question. That's. 6 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:22,520 Called the Hall of Fame we have we can have an IAM Hall of Fame 7 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:24,960 we'll have you back on another episode and. 8 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:27,280 Go through the whole Hall of Fame. 9 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:31,160 I think that there's there's a couple of folks on there that 10 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:33,120 are that are pretty easy to identify. 11 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:36,440 Obviously Kim Cameron would be one of those because he's had 12 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:39,360 such a major impact. It's like the George Washington, 13 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:41,640 right? Identity from from day one, 14 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:43,480 right? The the seven laws of identity 15 00:00:43,480 --> 00:00:47,280 sort of defined our industry. And so you know, Kim Cameron 16 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:53,400 simply for what he's done and for the for the I think Victoria 17 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:55,520 is another one in that Victoria Bertucci. 18 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:06,160 This is identity at the center. If it has anything to do with 19 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:10,840 IAM. This is the go to podcast now 20 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:14,720 your hosts Jim McDonald and Jeff Stedman. 21 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:22,560 Welcome to the Identity at the Center podcast. 22 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:24,280 I'm Jeff, and that's Jim. Hey, Jim. 23 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:27,240 Hey, Jeff, how are you? Oh, not so bad yourself. 24 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:31,520 Great, doing great. Actually, you know, the last 25 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:34,800 couple days have been really busy for me and just got a lot 26 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:38,040 of project work, but it's better than Friday. 27 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:42,480 And I, I can't say I had the worst day Friday, but I woke up 28 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:46,840 to the blue screen of death and spent like four or five hours 29 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:51,000 trying to figure it out and try to conduct business from a 30 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:54,160 mobile phone. But no longer in the kind of 31 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:58,280 like the desktop support phase of my career. 32 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:01,120 I guess everybody's probably figured out by now that I'm 33 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:05,280 talking about that that crowd strike outage that hit not every 34 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:08,080 Windows computer, but it did hit mine 8 1/2. 35 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:10,720 Million is I think, the last count I saw around the world. 36 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:14,400 Yeah, yeah, no doubt. I mean, that's a big number. 37 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:18,560 I mean, I'm talking about there were certain organizations where 38 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:20,800 10s of thousands of computers were affected. 39 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:25,480 That's a big deal, right? So those somebody had to go 40 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:30,000 around and like touch computers. And I don't think it was the 41 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:33,120 kind of issue where you could remote control into computers. 42 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:35,320 So you had to have like a physical presence. 43 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:39,440 So I'm sure there are a lot of IT managers out there who were, 44 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:42,880 you know, dealing with that and had a a really rough morning. 45 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:48,400 I tried to not go on social media and like, you know, get 46 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:50,960 too involved because I'm not a Windows person. 47 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:58,200 But what I do want to offer now to anybody is like, if they are 48 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:01,240 thinking about the long term strategy and how something like 49 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:06,640 this effects their identity program, I'd be very much open 50 00:03:06,640 --> 00:03:12,840 to being somebody who is a resource, you know, because I, I 51 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:16,280 think about a crowd strike. I even think back to like solar 52 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:19,600 winds. And a lot of times we say, all 53 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:22,640 right, well, if there's a legitimate use for an account 54 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:25,680 and the account is OK, right, We also look at it and make sure 55 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:29,120 that it's got the right level of privileges, etcetera. 56 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:32,040 But there are certain situations where you have very powerful 57 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:35,280 accounts in the environment. They have a legitimate reason to 58 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:40,400 exist, but I think a very important part of risk 59 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:43,200 management is knowing what your risks are. 60 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:47,560 And if you don't have kind of the inventory of risks, then 61 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:51,080 it's hard to manage what you what you can't even measure. 62 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:56,680 Yeah, I mean, you got crowd struck. 63 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:58,680 I got crowd struck. A whole bunch of people got 64 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:01,640 crowd struck. I'm not going to bash anything. 65 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:03,440 I mean, think these things happen, right? 66 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:07,600 Piece of software softwares are defined by humans and mistakes 67 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:10,760 that we made and it's unfortunate had a wide-ranging 68 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:14,240 impact but for the most part, I think most folks hopefully are 69 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:16,079 back to normal at this point about a week later or so. 70 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:19,600 I'm just glad I wasn't flying on Friday. 71 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:23,280 I actually flew back from South America on Thursday before this 72 00:04:23,280 --> 00:04:26,240 happened and that was already a challenge just for for weather 73 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:27,800 delays. I can't imagine trying to fly 74 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:32,560 back on Friday, you know, after a week in in Bogota and then 75 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:35,520 having to deal with airport delays and stuff like that. 76 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:38,600 So I'm just happy with that. Delta is apparently still 77 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:40,840 recovering. If you're, you know, kicked on 78 00:04:40,840 --> 00:04:42,680 the 4th wall. Today is Wednesday. 79 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:45,840 What is Wednesday 24th? So we're just about almost a 80 00:04:45,840 --> 00:04:49,840 week from when things happened. And Delta has said that they 81 00:04:49,840 --> 00:04:51,600 should be back to normal tomorrow. 82 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:54,960 But it seems like they have struggled more than most for the 83 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:56,800 airlines to get back up to speed. 84 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:58,640 So I don't know. As long as you're people 85 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:00,520 crumbling as. Long as my flight to New York 86 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:02,160 City tomorrow is on time, I don't care. 87 00:05:02,840 --> 00:05:06,240 Yeah, I, I mean, that's, you know, and that's not just being 88 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:08,720 selfish. I mean, you've sat through your 89 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:12,080 fair share of delays. It's it's part of being a road 90 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:13,640 warrior. If you're going to be a road 91 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:16,720 warrior, you're going to spend some nights in some airport 92 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:20,320 hotels, bottom line, or airports, Yeah. 93 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:22,480 And you're going to have your fair share of turbulence and all 94 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:24,760 that. But you know, specific to 95 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:29,680 today's episode, what has me excited is like, and the analogy 96 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:34,800 that I was thinking kind of tied to this was, you know, how in we 97 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:37,960 all have our hobbies and these days, like within our hobbies, 98 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:41,600 we've got all the social media and YouTube and people who 99 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:46,840 aren't really celebrities per SE, they become celebrities in 100 00:05:46,840 --> 00:05:50,520 your world. But going back kind of like when 101 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:54,680 I first got started in this industry, our guest today was 102 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:57,360 already a celebrity within that industry. 103 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:01,040 So, you know, he's like one of the people that I looked up to 104 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:03,760 and there's there's several people who kind of fit that 105 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:05,840 bill. But I'm really excited about 106 00:06:05,840 --> 00:06:10,000 having him on our show now. So I think it's pretty cool. 107 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:11,720 Yeah. Why don't we take care of a 108 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:13,880 little bit of business and talk about our conference 109 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:15,880 partnerships before we get to Alan? 110 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:19,440 The first up is Identity Week. We've got Identity Week America 111 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:21,080 taking place September 11th, the 12th. 112 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:22,440 Jim, you and I are going to be there. 113 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:25,120 Actually had a call this morning with the team there just to make 114 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:27,160 sure everything is all set and good to go. 115 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:30,120 Good news, we're going to have power wherever it is we are so 116 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:34,160 we can record podcasts from. I'll be hosting a panel, so that 117 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:36,120 should be up on the agenda now in the first day. 118 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:38,960 So things are starting together, you know, starting to come 119 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:41,640 together for that. But we got a discount code for 120 00:06:41,840 --> 00:06:44,080 all of our listeners. And if you're not a listener and 121 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:45,560 you somehow get this code, enjoy. 122 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:49,760 Ida C30 gets you 30% off of your registration. 123 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:53,480 So you can use that code for both the America conference as 124 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:56,120 well as the one taking place in Asia and Singapore, October 125 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:59,440 22nd, 23rd. So if you're going to either of 126 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:01,600 those conferences, you can use that code. 127 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:05,000 Ida C30 get 30% off. Good way to show support for the 128 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:06,840 show. Does it cost you anything? 129 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:09,600 Just show support that says, hey, you know, you heard you 130 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:12,360 heard about the conference through the podcast here, so. 131 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:16,120 If you're not a listener and you use that code though, you owe us 132 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:19,120 like 3 listens and a like on YouTube. 133 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:21,240 Yeah, that would be nice. At least give a like or a 134 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:23,640 subscribe or something just to just to help us out. 135 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:26,240 That would be super. The other conference we have is 136 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:28,120 the authenticate conference. You and I are looking for that 137 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:30,720 as well. That is in October the 14th, the 138 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:36,560 16th in Carlsbad, CA on a very nice resort, the Omni Acosta or 139 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:38,960 something like that. Anyway, it's nice golf, 140 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:43,680 California weather, October generally pretty much perfect. 141 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:46,160 So looking forward to that. We've got a discount code for 142 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:50,320 that one as well, ID AC15. That gets you 15% off of your 143 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:52,240 registration. So you and I are going to be 144 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:53,440 there. We're going to be doing 145 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:56,440 something, not sure you're what yet, but doing our normal, 146 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:59,360 probably conference podcast things and maybe even something 147 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:00,200 on stage. We'll see. 148 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:02,280 Still working that one out, but that's going to be a lot of fun. 149 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:06,160 Anything else, Jim, before we get things going here today? 150 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:10,280 No, I'm thinking that's going to be a good, a good question for 151 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:13,560 our guest today is around conferences because I think he's 152 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:15,600 done his fair share of conferences so. 153 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:17,640 Well, the last time we talked to him, we were at a conference. 154 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:19,320 We were at Identiver. So why don't we go ahead and get 155 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:21,040 to it? He's part of the executive team 156 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:23,280 for the Digital Identity Advancement Foundation. 157 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:27,200 DIF Emeritus board member for ID Pro, which you and I are both 158 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:29,760 members of, one of the founders of Forge Rock. 159 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:32,559 Now he's enjoying this retiree life, which is awesome. 160 00:08:32,919 --> 00:08:35,200 Welcome back to the show, Alan Foster. 161 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:37,360 Thank you. Thank you very much. 162 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:38,799 You. You make me almost jealous for 163 00:08:38,799 --> 00:08:43,720 what I'm actually. Living well, thanks for carving 164 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:46,200 out some time for us. I, you know, I think this is an 165 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:49,120 opportunity for us to kind of maybe I, I, you know, we were 166 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:50,360 kind of talking. It's like, what are we, what are 167 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:52,160 we going to call the show? Like, what is the theme for 168 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:53,520 this? It's we're kind of thinking it's 169 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:57,040 like, well, it's like a walk down identity lane, the Alan 170 00:08:57,040 --> 00:08:58,480 Foster version or something like that. 171 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:00,920 But I'm sure it will name itself as they go along. 172 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:03,520 But let's not get too far because you've been in the space 173 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:05,800 for a long time. You know, Jim alluded to it. 174 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:08,760 Tell us about your identity journey. 175 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:11,320 How did you get into the world of identity management? 176 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:14,000 Is it something that you chose or did it choose you? 177 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:18,800 It pretty much chose me, right? So I mean, to give you the, the 178 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:25,200 quick rundown of where I came into it, late 80s, early 90s, I 179 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:30,040 was the prototypical software engineer feed pizza under the 180 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:33,680 door, writing code, right? I was working, I was working a 181 00:09:33,680 --> 00:09:38,320 lot with Apple at the time and my world was back end of the 182 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:41,280 compilers, low level machine debuggers. 183 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:43,160 I mean, I was right down there next to the chip. 184 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:50,480 The, the I ultimately at Apple got involved in training because 185 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:55,800 I found I was lucky enough to have both a good solid, deep 186 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:59,000 technical understanding of what we were doing as well as had a 187 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:02,040 way of being able to explain that to people and, and draw 188 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:04,440 diagrams on a white board and things like that. 189 00:10:04,680 --> 00:10:08,440 So I got involved doing a fair bit of training and then sort of 190 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:11,440 we Fast forward, I did some stuff with Apple and next and 191 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:13,760 various things like that. But we Fast forward a few years 192 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:19,160 to about 95, and this little upstart company called Netscape 193 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:23,520 ended up giving me a call and said, you used to do some 194 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:26,600 training for Apple, we've got some training work to do. 195 00:10:26,680 --> 00:10:28,880 Would you be interested in coming to see us? 196 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:31,840 And I went to see them, and it turned out that most of the 197 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:34,440 people that I'd worked with in the training group at Apple were 198 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:38,800 now at Netscape. And so for those of us who 199 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:43,200 remember the good old Netscape browser, there was actually more 200 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:45,560 to Netscape than just the browser, right? 201 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:47,680 There were actually three parts to it. 202 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:53,400 The one was the browser. The one was netscape.net, to 203 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:55,920 which everybody had an e-mail address. 204 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:58,800 It was the portal. And the third part was this 205 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:03,160 server products. And they had this little product 206 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:05,880 called LDAP. It was the Netscape Directory 207 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:08,840 Server. And Needless to say over the 208 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:14,000 next few years, my story was use the Netscape directory server. 209 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:16,760 It's going to solve all of our identity problems from this 210 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:19,880 point forward. Well, Fast forward 30 years, 211 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:21,720 we're still sort of trying to say that. 212 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:27,040 So I, I was with Netscape working in their servers, net, 213 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:30,600 the e-commerce products. And then we Fast forward again 214 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:35,880 into about 2000 when there was this really strange acquisition 215 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:41,000 where Sun Microsystems and AOL both kind of bought part of 216 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:45,880 Netscape and and consumed it. I followed the Sun path on that 217 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:47,960 because Sun basically wanted to get to all of the server 218 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:50,920 products. Netscape had the directory 219 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:55,520 server, they had mail server, lot of things like that they 220 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:58,280 also had. And as we started moving into 221 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:01,800 Sun, they were starting to work on products like what was 222 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:06,200 originally called the Identity server and the portal server. 223 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:08,480 These were for, you know, companies to build these 224 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:10,880 products. And that's where I got involved. 225 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:15,760 So I spent the next 10 years in the Sun ecosystem working with 226 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:18,920 Identity, which eventually became access manager. 227 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:23,080 Fast forward again, we have another really strange 228 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:30,040 acquisition at the end of the, the, the about 2009 when Oracle 229 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:35,080 and Sun had a little steel cage match and Sun didn't work out as 230 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:38,480 well. And so right at that point is 231 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:42,600 when a few of us at, I think it was a bar in London. 232 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:46,120 We're talking about what's going to happen to the open source 233 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:51,120 identity stuff that Sun has. Oracle wasn't known for being a 234 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:53,320 major proponent of open source stuff. 235 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:55,800 And they had sort of said they had their stack, they didn't 236 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:58,040 want anything. And that was the beginning of 237 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:01,640 Fortruck. And so we founded Forge Rock 238 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:07,280 with sort of this idea that we could take the Sun products and 239 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:10,160 continue those on since we've been working on them for 10 240 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:15,840 years, right And there. So that little band of merry men 241 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:18,120 in a pub ended up founding Forge Rock. 242 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:24,000 Fast forward again, we end up into 2021, we went public on the 243 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:27,360 New York Stock Exchange, which was a wonderful journey and a, 244 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:29,840 and a, and a very interesting journey. 245 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:32,200 The, the entire process. I'm sure we'll talk about it a 246 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:35,600 little later. And so at the end of 21, I sort 247 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:38,840 of realized that my part of that journey was, was done and it's 248 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:41,920 time to do other things. And so I retired from Fort 249 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:45,520 Rocket at the end of 21 December 31st in 21. 250 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:49,880 So that's the the sort of quick rundown of of the time that I've 251 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:52,680 been through, all of which were really interesting times. 252 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:57,000 Only a couple notable things happened during that time. 253 00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:01,080 Just a handful of things. I'm curious what you mentioned 254 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:04,360 you were kind of on the software side and then all of a sudden, 255 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:06,680 maybe not even a solid, maybe it was a gradual shift, but that 256 00:14:06,680 --> 00:14:10,400 that move from software to identity, was that a conscious 257 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:11,800 shift? Was it something that just kind 258 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:15,040 of occurred naturally or like did you realize you were an 259 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:16,560 identity all of a sudden and wake up? 260 00:14:16,680 --> 00:14:18,760 I was like, oh, I've been, I've been doing this longer than I 261 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:22,320 thought I have or was like, yes, I I want to move into this 262 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:27,960 space. It, it mainly I woke up and 263 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:31,880 discovered I was there, right? I mean, it, it was sort of a, a 264 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:37,520 general movement if you think about it back in the mid 90s, we 265 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:41,080 were still talking about Jeff Bezos being a guy who was in his 266 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:44,120 garage selling books on the Internet, right? 267 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:46,360 That that's sort of what Amazon was. 268 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:51,560 And so we were really trying to find out what the Internet was 269 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:54,400 capable of, what we were doing with it and things like that, 270 00:14:54,880 --> 00:15:00,480 and began to realize that the firewall was no longer going to 271 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:02,760 be the thing which protects our network. 272 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:06,400 And that was sort of the beginning of the point of 273 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:11,560 saying, OK, people are coming in from outside from, you know, the 274 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:14,840 we're connecting things up. And so having some way of 275 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:20,520 knowing who's who became a really interesting technical 276 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:23,800 problem. And so that was sort of the 277 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:25,640 space. It was actually because, and I, 278 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:28,080 and I keep saying this throughout the entire time I've 279 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:32,000 been an identity, identity in itself is not particularly 280 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:34,600 interesting. It's only interesting because of 281 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:38,240 what it enables, right? The, the, the fact is nobody 282 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:42,520 goes to work saying today I'm going to log in, you know, that 283 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:47,600 that's, that's not a thing, but we have to do that because it 284 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:50,680 enables everything else. And so I got involved and it was 285 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:54,160 about, well, how do we distribute data with the portal? 286 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:58,600 How do we manage messages? How do we provide access control 287 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:01,440 to calendars, right? It was that kind of stuff. 288 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:07,440 And every time I turned around identity or being able to 289 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:12,360 determine who we were dealing with became the problem Dujour. 290 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:16,560 And and that's sort of how I got into it was really a case of how 291 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:20,200 do we enable all these other things to happen, if that makes 292 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:24,840 sense. Alan, you, you've, I always knew 293 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:27,600 you from Forge Rock, right? I got involved with Forge Rock 294 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:32,400 in the pretty early days, as well as like a system integrate 295 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:38,200 on the system integrator side. But you've also kind of always 296 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:41,560 been involved with a lot of the industry groups like Liberty 297 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:46,440 Alliance, Kentara. Now you're heavily involved with 298 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:49,720 the Digital Identity Advancement Foundation. 299 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:54,760 Is it DIAF or DIAF? And either one works. 300 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:57,800 DIAF is probably easier to say. Yeah. 301 00:16:57,800 --> 00:16:59,040 OK. So DIAF. 302 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:02,160 So can you tell us a little bit about DIAF, like what's the 303 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:05,640 mission and how are you guys going about it? 304 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:09,680 So the Dayaf that that's actually one that's that's near 305 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:15,440 and dear to my heart that Ian Glaser and Aaron and myself are 306 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:21,440 are working on that. It came about two or three years 307 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:28,280 ago when Kim Cameron, who is a legend in in the identity space, 308 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:35,120 when he passed away, the Open ID Foundation started an award 309 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:41,600 basically to memorialize him, but also to try and encourage 310 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:45,320 new people to get involved in the industry that all of us have 311 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:48,920 spent a lot of time working in, which they did. 312 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:51,520 And so the first year they actually ran the Kim Cameron 313 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:57,360 Award and almost from day one, they realized that this was not 314 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:01,040 specifically within their remit. This was not what, what they 315 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:04,320 were doing, You know, they, they were standards body and they 316 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:06,840 work on standards and, and managing that award. 317 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:10,360 It, it seemed like a good incubator, but wasn't really a 318 00:18:10,360 --> 00:18:13,480 place. And so after about a year, the 319 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:19,040 Open ID Foundation came to Ian and myself and, and said, would 320 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:22,800 you guys be interested in putting an organization 321 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:27,800 specifically to manage these awards and fostering new people, 322 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:31,040 enabling people who otherwise wouldn't be able to come to the 323 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:35,120 conferences or these events? And, and, you know, building on, 324 00:18:35,120 --> 00:18:37,840 as I think one of Ian's talks, building onto the shoulders of 325 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:41,520 giants. And so we started off with the 326 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:45,360 Kim Cameron Award. And then for the, the, I'm sure 327 00:18:45,360 --> 00:18:48,440 many people remember it was last year when we lost Victoria 328 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:53,240 Bertucci. And that seemed like a, another 329 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:58,360 person who was passionate about enabling people, teaching 330 00:18:58,360 --> 00:19:01,680 people, bringing new people in. And it seemed to just fit in 331 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:04,520 onto the mission. And so the, the mission, 332 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:10,440 although Dayaf has started off as, as sort of honoring these 333 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:12,400 people, the goal is sort of bigger than that. 334 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:18,560 The goal is how do we enable people who are starting off in 335 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:23,480 their careers, people to come into what we are doing, to Start 336 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:26,680 learning about digital identity and carrying on all of the work 337 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:29,160 that we have to do. And that's sort of really why we 338 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:32,640 founded it and put the focus specifically on that. 339 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:37,720 And we did a show with with you guys back around Idaniverse time 340 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:42,240 where we had winners of an award to be able to come and. 341 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:43,920 Attend the Kim Cameron Award. Yeah, the. 342 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:46,440 Kim Cameron Award So I would definitely, you know, point 343 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:47,840 people back. You can go back and listen to 344 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:48,800 that episode. It was a lot of fun. 345 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:52,320 It was, I think I think that was our biggest show ever, meaning 346 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:53,840 most amount of people on at once. 347 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:56,760 So definitely a lively conversation. 348 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:59,240 We had some, you know, some great folks who are new to 349 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:01,320 identity. Really sharing their perspective 350 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:03,560 on it. I want to we have like, I feel 351 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:06,000 like there's so much to cover. So I want to keep things moving 352 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:07,880 because I want to ask about Fordrock. 353 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:10,480 I guess take us through the history of Fordrock because it 354 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:15,120 sounds like all great ideas. It was born in a pub over what 355 00:20:15,120 --> 00:20:19,200 I'm assuming were a few a few pints of how. 356 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:21,160 This would work. Take us through Take us through 357 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:26,320 Fordrock. So the, the, the team that sort 358 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:29,200 of started up Fordrock had known each other for a few years 359 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:31,720 before that. We'd all been involved in one 360 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:34,920 form or another within the Sun consulting work, right? 361 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:37,680 We'd, we'd all been working on the products. 362 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,760 And so, as I said, when when Oracle bought Sun, we decided to 363 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:47,680 put that together initially with the idea of saying, well, can we 364 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:50,880 start a company that lets us keep doing what we're enjoying 365 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:54,640 doing and, you know, pay the bills for the next few years? 366 00:20:56,480 --> 00:21:01,720 The, the, the trajectory that it went on was sort of the stuff 367 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:05,520 that fairy tales are made of it. It wasn't the plan, right? 368 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:07,960 The plan was just to build a company that we would enjoy 369 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:12,440 working at. And so we officially started it 370 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:15,080 on February 1st. Interesting story on this 371 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:23,240 January 31st of 2010 was the day that Sun was delisted off of the 372 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:25,960 New York Stock Exchange. It's the day that Java died. 373 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:32,920 And so February 1st at 12 O1 is when we officially established 4 374 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:35,640 truck. That was the the transition time 375 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:40,680 for us to do that. And so starting off we had about 376 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:42,600 15 people. There were, there was five or 377 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:46,520 six of us originally, which very quickly led to, you know, the, 378 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:49,480 the, the small group of us who were involved and about 15 379 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:55,480 folks. And we started working on the 380 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:59,200 Sun access Manager, which at that point was open source. 381 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:07,280 We were very lucky on that in as much as that the Sun engineering 382 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:11,520 team had done all of the work necessary to get up to a release 383 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:17,920 and were weeks away, possibly even days away from making a 384 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:19,040 release. I believe. 385 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:22,720 I'm probably wrong on this, but I believe it was AM 9 at the 386 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:26,960 time. And so we were lucky enough to 387 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:31,440 be able to take the open source repository, package it and 388 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:35,960 release the the update. And we've been working on that 389 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:40,760 and going in through with that and supporting the folks who had 390 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:43,080 bought into it right there. There was a lot of Sun customers 391 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:44,360 at the time and working with them. 392 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:48,960 And so you know, a lot of hard work from a lot of people ended 393 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:59,160 up taking us to about 2012 when we decided to take our first 394 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:01,640 round of funding. Everything up until that we had 395 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,400 sort of done ourselves. We took our first round of 396 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:08,840 funding. We then I believe it was 2012, 397 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:13,800 it may have been early 2013 is when John Fernandez who was our 398 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:18,960 Chief Financial Officer came in. And I very clearly remember him 399 00:23:19,120 --> 00:23:22,560 at A at a company meeting where he said to us, I strongly 400 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:26,040 believe that if you behave like a public company pretty soon you 401 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:29,040 are one. And that was the the journey he 402 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:31,720 basically would say throughout the entire time and took us up 403 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:39,960 2014 or so, a small group of us, myself, Joni Brennan from the 404 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:47,600 DIAC, Ian Grazer from Salesforce and one or two other folks that 405 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:52,480 were, were part of that actually came up with sort of looking at 406 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,160 consumer identity. It wasn't a thing at that point, 407 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:56,920 right? All identity was workforce. 408 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:01,080 And so we started bringing up consumer identity. 409 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:06,840 It caught on and we were able to sort of step into that space 410 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:11,000 quite well from a company. By then, I'm guessing we were 411 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:16,600 probably at, at maybe, I don't know, a hundred, 125 people. 412 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:21,280 I founded the, the, the development office in Portland, 413 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:26,520 OR we had one in Bristol. We moved on through all of that 414 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:30,080 and we then started doing all of the things that happened when a 415 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:35,280 company grows, right. We, we got a new CEO in the 416 00:24:35,360 --> 00:24:39,800 Lasso, who was our founding CEO moved into the CTO role. 417 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:46,640 The, the, when we started it, we were actually focused largely on 418 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:51,400 European business and they were two of us in the US, John and 419 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:55,040 myself were we were being opportunistic about U.S. 420 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,960 business. By the time we got to 2014, we 421 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:03,600 were very strongly entrenched in the US and the CEO at the time 422 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:07,520 came to me and they said we'd like to expand into Asia. 423 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:10,600 How would you like to move to Singapore for a while? 424 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,760 And so I up and moved to Singapore and helped establish 425 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:17,760 the Singapore region and our offices down in Sydney and 426 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:24,680 Singapore and then came back in it, it, it wasn't an immediate 427 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:27,600 comeback into COVID, but about five years later, we hit COVID 428 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:32,680 and, and it just, you know, we were in the right place at the 429 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:34,760 right time and, and working with a lot of these things. 430 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:39,360 And so that's sort of the past that it came to from a personal 431 00:25:39,360 --> 00:25:41,800 perspective. I did definitely realize that 432 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:47,160 the bigger the company gets, the less interested I am in really 433 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:51,520 being wanting to work the even though I love the people, I love 434 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:53,440 the culture, I loved everything we did about it. 435 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:58,400 I realized that I was much more suited for a small start up 436 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:00,880 rather than, you know, a big company. 437 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:03,920 And, and I think that happens when when you're at a company 438 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:08,080 that grows like that, you get to a point where you say, I'm glad 439 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,600 of the success, but it's not where I want to be. 440 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:13,520 There's a policy for everything. Oh. 441 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:16,800 Oh, yes, yes. You know, you, you say there's a 442 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,280 policy. Our very first policy when we 443 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:22,560 were sitting around the dining room table was we have a no 444 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:26,120 policy policy. And so the, the policy that we 445 00:26:26,120 --> 00:26:30,600 had was do the right thing. And then slowly watching over 446 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:33,720 the years as we started getting a travel policy and expense 447 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:37,720 policy, a this policy and a that policy, yeah. 448 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,880 Yeah, Yeah, I've been as a start of companies where you kind of 449 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,640 go through that and I was, I was actually the question that I was 450 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:49,000 going to ask you about. I also wanted to just state like 451 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:54,680 I, I guess I discovered open AM pretty far into the journey of 452 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:58,120 the way you tell it, which was that a large university they're 453 00:26:58,120 --> 00:27:01,480 running open AM and they were asking me, should we get support 454 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,760 from Fordrock. I'm like, I didn't know about 455 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,760 open AM before and I don't I've never heard of Fordrock. 456 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:13,240 So I started to do some research and I was like, wow, this is the 457 00:27:13,360 --> 00:27:16,040 best thing since sliced bread because I had been working with 458 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:21,960 like Oracle access manager and CA site minder for, you know, a 459 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:24,560 good part of my career. And they probably would argue 460 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:28,040 that, you know, they, they invented customer identity and 461 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:33,760 access management. But you guys shifted that whole 462 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,920 landscape so much. And people who weren't there at 463 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:44,160 the time don't realize that how much of the shift it was in the 464 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:48,840 access management space, just the introduction of of Forge 465 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:54,120 Rock into that competition between Oracle CA and IBM. 466 00:27:55,360 --> 00:27:59,320 Yeah, I mean, it was fascinating to watch and you know, although 467 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:03,880 I'd love to take the credit for it, it it, it was a, it was a 468 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,360 perfect storm of things coming together. 469 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:13,600 The, the, the reality about it is prior to about 2013, if you 470 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:17,960 were a public facing application, you were a web page 471 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:20,360 and you had a My Sequel database behind you and you had a 472 00:28:20,360 --> 00:28:22,760 username and password. And that was sort of it, right? 473 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:29,400 The thing which really changed in about 2013 was the idea that 474 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:33,160 you were logging in and there were multiple systems behind 475 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:38,680 that login page that not only staff, but customers we're now 476 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:40,920 accessing. And then this sort of other 477 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,960 piece that came in on the side was the API economy, right? 478 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,400 AP is brought in. This whole thing that said, not 479 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:51,280 only are we just providing a web page on to something, submitting 480 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:55,480 a form, we're giving people access to our AP is and we got 481 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,480 the mobile phone thing coming up, right? 482 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,680 The smartphones. You know, let's face it, it 483 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,800 wasn't that long ago you were talking in, in the introduction 484 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,920 about Delta Airlines. It wasn't that long ago that the 485 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,040 only way to get a seat assignment was to phone and 486 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:15,280 speak to someone. And this was 20/10/2020 O 8, 487 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:16,920 right? That you phoned and spoke to 488 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,760 someone. Now, while you're sitting at the 489 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:23,400 gate, you can sit on your phone and you can change seats to find 490 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,000 one with no one sitting next to you or something like that. 491 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,520 That could do it in the sky, sitting in sitting in the 492 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,120 airplane. I've never tried, I've never 493 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:34,880 tried that. I, I, I think there's always a 494 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,040 Monty Python sketch about that, right? 495 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:39,040 Everybody moving around the plane. 496 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:42,640 But yeah, right. You've got immediate access and 497 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:48,760 I think that really highlighted the the deficiencies that we had 498 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:52,960 in customer identity and customers didn't have access. 499 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:56,200 Customers lined up behind the big wooden desk. 500 00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,000 You know that that's, that's how customers were. 501 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,960 So there was that big shift in that which I think enabled a lot 502 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:07,360 of the consumer technology and the the consumer adoption that 503 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:09,600 that drove into that and we were lucky enough to be in the right 504 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:13,880 place at the right time. So here's a little fun fact for 505 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:17,520 folks. A lot of people ask Jim How I 506 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:19,160 Met Jim, and we kind of met each other. 507 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:21,200 And I think I've told the story. It's like, you know, the first 508 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,600 thing Jim ever said to me was do you like baseball? 509 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:27,160 And I said no, not really. And then he just kind of walked 510 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,040 away from me. So, so hey, guy. 511 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:32,840 Well, nice to meet you, Jim. But that's not the first time 512 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:35,200 that I was actually introduced to Jim. 513 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:38,040 It was a YouTube video that Jim did. 514 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,080 I think it was open DJ or open AM. 515 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:43,320 It was a four draw. It was a time machine, I think 516 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:45,480 is what was called Jim. Jim, you can explain better than 517 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,520 I can. But you had done a a video of it 518 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:52,120 and I was doing research as I interviewed, was about to 519 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:53,920 interview with this company called Identity, which is 520 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:57,000 eventually where Jim and I met. And that was actually my first 521 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,200 exposure to both Forge Rock and to Jim McDonald. 522 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:03,400 So there was a tie. Out there, the stuff is still 523 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:05,280 out there. It was, you know, recorded 10 524 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,360 years ago. So if you go to the Identity 525 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:12,320 YouTube channel, of course this is when you're out there 526 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:16,200 watching Identity of the Center and you need a break because 527 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:17,880 you've watched so many episodes in a row. 528 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,800 You go out and search up Identity and there's a ton of 529 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:24,800 four DRAC videos out there. So we had a great team, really 530 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:29,400 did and a. Lot of a lot of the folks who 531 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,320 were doing that really enjoyed doing it, right? 532 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,080 They were doing it not because it was their job. 533 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:36,080 They were doing it not because they were trying to sell 534 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:37,240 product. They were doing because they 535 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:39,600 just want to tell people how cool this was. 536 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,920 It was cool, it was fun. And what I thought was so cool 537 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,080 about it was you could go in there and take a problem and it 538 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:52,080 was a new problem that required a, a novel solution. 539 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:56,320 And then you could take the, the four draw components and put 540 00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:58,360 them together and solve that problem. 541 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:02,840 I, I think very much today we're at, we're in that mode where 542 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,440 it's like, OK, what's the best practice or what's the leading 543 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:09,000 practice? We'll just do that and it takes 544 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,880 some of the excitement out for me because it's like, that's my 545 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:15,400 creative juices. My creative drive is to take a 546 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:17,960 problem and draw it out on the whiteboard and figure out a 547 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,520 solution, and that's what I love so much. 548 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:24,440 I think about working with Forge Rock was that it kind of gave 549 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:28,800 that opportunity. You mentioned Joni Brennan a 550 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,280 couple of times. We've had her on the podcast 551 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:35,960 recently, actually. Big Thinker talked about DIAC 552 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:39,640 talked about Liberty Alliance. I didn't realize that we should 553 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,800 have hit her up about Kantara. So maybe you can give us a 554 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:46,400 couple minutes on the the mission of Kantara and kind of 555 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:48,840 what your role was in that organization? 556 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:51,840 Wow, that takes us back a little ways. 557 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:56,680 So the yes, Joni, Joni and I go back a long way. 558 00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,200 In order to tell that story, we actually have to talk a little 559 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:01,720 bit about Liberty Alliance, right. 560 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:10,040 So the Liberty Alliance was back in about let's say 2005 and a 561 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:14,520 few years after that big industry wide, there were 160 562 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,840 companies ultimately that were working in Liberty Alliance 563 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:25,520 partially in response to and it's they came out at the same 564 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:26,560 time. So I'm not going to say it was 565 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:30,800 in response to, but early on in the 2000s, Microsoft came out 566 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:35,760 with a technology called Passport and it was essentially 567 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,880 single sign on to all everything you, you, you had. 568 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:45,240 And the, the response from the industry was to look at that and 569 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,800 said, you know, I'm not giving up my login experience. 570 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:51,440 I'm not giving up my identification of customers to 571 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:55,160 Microsoft. That's, you know, I'm, I want to 572 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:57,080 keep that. And so they founded Liberty 573 00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:59,400 Alliance. Son was one of those members. 574 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:01,640 There was a lot of them. I think the Liberty Alliance 575 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:06,000 pages might still be up there. But the net result of all of 576 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:12,159 that was the creation of the Samil 2 standard, actually the 577 00:34:12,159 --> 00:34:14,280 Samil one and the Samil 2 standard. 578 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:21,159 And the standards were eventually given to Oasis as a 579 00:34:21,159 --> 00:34:23,960 standard body and that's where the standards were brought out. 580 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:31,400 And Liberty Alliance basically, I, I made it maybe in 2008, it 581 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:35,080 may have been early 2009, the dates are getting a little hazy 582 00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:36,920 back there. But the Liberty Alliance 583 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:39,520 basically said, OK, our work here is done. 584 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:46,960 And so they had defined the SAML federation protocols which are 585 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:50,480 showing their long teeth now because it was all XML based, 586 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:57,640 but they defined the protocols and Cantara was actually came 587 00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:03,720 out sort of as a result of that as a place to do some standard 588 00:35:03,720 --> 00:35:05,880 verifications. It's a sort of the bridge to the 589 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:15,280 future and the, the Joni ended up so, so Joni was the, I think 590 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:19,320 the second executive director of Cantara. 591 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:24,120 Once we had founded Forge Rock, I had been involved with the 592 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:27,800 Liberty Alliance during the Sundays and then when we founded 593 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:31,120 Forge Rock, I carried on being involved with Canterra. 594 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:37,760 I became president of Canterra, I think in 2011, and Joni was 595 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,440 the executive director. So she and I worked very closely 596 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:44,480 inside of Cantera. And one of the things that we 597 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:50,160 were working heavily on at that point was not only trying to get 598 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:57,240 conformance certification on the actual implementations, but also 599 00:35:57,240 --> 00:36:02,480 trying to do conformance certifications on federations. 600 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:05,400 And you know, if you're going to be a relying party, are you 601 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:09,920 doing the right thing with information etcetera and and you 602 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:12,280 know, personal identifying information in the privacy 603 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:14,760 aspect. And so Kentaro was driving 604 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:17,080 around an auditing process around giving that 605 00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:20,880 certification, which was really interesting at the time because 606 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:25,480 the federal government was sort of requiring because they, they 607 00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:29,600 bought all in on SAML. And so the federal government 608 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:32,200 was doing that. So Joni and I worked at or 609 00:36:32,240 --> 00:36:36,240 worked, I'm not sure we ever really worked, but Joni and I 610 00:36:36,240 --> 00:36:42,800 were heavily involved with with Kentara until eventually she 611 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:46,200 left and is now at the Digital Identity Council of Canada, 612 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:50,120 Digital, Digital Identity and Authentication Council of 613 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:54,920 Canada. And I ended up backing away, 614 00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:59,280 resigning from the presidency at about 2018-2019. 615 00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:03,120 Just at that point, I was not able to put the time into it. 616 00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:07,120 But we'd spent a lot of time in with Kentara and building that 617 00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:09,560 up and building up those conformance things. 618 00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:14,280 And they continue to do that to this day and are working very 619 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:19,480 heavily in, in helping people the the conformance around, as 620 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,680 you say, best practices around identity best practices and 621 00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:26,200 preserving information and privacy, things like that. 622 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:29,640 Yeah, and that I mean, all that's so important, especially 623 00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:32,560 the the best practices. And because I think people are 624 00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:35,320 searching for that. They don't know how to do 625 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:37,120 something. They they want someone to tell 626 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:38,640 them this is the right way to do it. 627 00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:43,080 But I think, you know, we can't underestimate Samuel. 628 00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:48,280 I mean, to me, that's just like such a landmark within the 629 00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,080 timeline of identity. It's like we can almost talk 630 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:52,440 about it. Like you can talk about the 631 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:56,840 world like pre 911, post 9/11, pre COVID, post COVID, you talk 632 00:37:56,840 --> 00:38:02,560 about the identity world, pre SAML, post SAML, it was like, 633 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:06,880 and I, I know it was a longer time that until everybody 634 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:10,240 adopted SAML, but there was a period of time where it was like 635 00:38:10,240 --> 00:38:15,960 you had to use like web agents or proxy servers and things like 636 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,520 that to do web access management. 637 00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:20,600 Then this new standard comes out SAML. 638 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:25,280 That's also around the same time that you saw a mass migration 639 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:30,120 from fat applications to web applications. 640 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:34,600 And Samuel just became, people just said, yes, I will do 641 00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,960 Samuel, I will reengineer my application, will do Samuel. 642 00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:41,000 And of course, there were hangers on, but I mean, it was 643 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:44,400 pretty much like it revolutionized the industry, I'd 644 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:46,120 say. It did. 645 00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:49,800 I think the, the thing that Samuel really recognized and the 646 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:52,600 thing that was able to be leveraged with the fact that it 647 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:57,680 was actually a trust framework and it was about codifying how 648 00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:00,160 do you trust two different entities in play. 649 00:39:00,720 --> 00:39:02,960 And so it gave us the capability. 650 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:06,120 I mean, one of the single biggest SAML networks and the 651 00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:10,560 SAML federations in use today is still the universities. 652 00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:14,360 The universities have, I don't know how many it is. 653 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:19,040 It's, it's hundreds of different entities within their SAML 654 00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:21,200 federation. And it's the idea that. 655 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:23,400 In controversy into the Federation. 656 00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:25,200 Edu. Edu. 657 00:39:25,240 --> 00:39:27,920 Is it Edu? Causes the organization, then 658 00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:31,040 they have in common. There's a few of them in that 659 00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:36,600 picture and the very fact that you can have a university in 660 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:40,800 Bristol in the UK and the university in San Francisco 661 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:45,720 being able to recognize the authentication of their 662 00:39:45,720 --> 00:39:49,560 appropriate, their individual students is mind numbing, right. 663 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,480 And when when you consider that they are running completely 664 00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:55,400 different systems. And so the, the fact that it 665 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:59,880 enabled us to transfer trust across organizations and at 666 00:39:59,880 --> 00:40:03,440 least trust part of what they were doing, even if it was just 667 00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:08,200 the authentication, right? You're right, I think it is. 668 00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:10,480 It was definitely one of those waterfall moments. 669 00:40:12,240 --> 00:40:15,440 Do you agree with that? SAML is the the biggest thing 670 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:16,920 since sliced bread in the identity space? 671 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:19,880 Is there something else that you think competes with that as far 672 00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:22,800 as, I don't know, the biggest impact that you've seen in the 673 00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:26,760 IM industry over your career? I would I would agree that 674 00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:31,720 probably I don't know if there's any one thing that's as big, but 675 00:40:31,720 --> 00:40:37,640 you know, LDAP is obviously one because it it's gone on for the 676 00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:39,800 20 years and a lot of things have been built on it. 677 00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:48,200 But SAML or the idea of federation between peers with a 678 00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:51,400 trust framework between them and SAML, that's what really what 679 00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:54,440 SAML was all about. I think that fundamentally 680 00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:59,080 changed identity from being silos into being a network. 681 00:40:59,920 --> 00:41:03,840 And, and it probably was one of the biggest thing that came into 682 00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:05,280 us. And the other one that I would 683 00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:12,760 sort of put into that is the the emergence of consumer identity 684 00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:15,720 from the perspective that it wasn't just something that 685 00:41:15,720 --> 00:41:20,640 protected workers or your employees, but but it was a way 686 00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:23,360 that you interacted with your customers and that that was a 687 00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:27,680 fundamental shift in change. But yeah, I would definitely put 688 00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:30,320 Samuel as to one of those really, really important 689 00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:32,720 milestones. Yeah. 690 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:36,160 You know, you just bringing that up kind of gets me thinking 691 00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:43,240 about the whole idea of identity providers is like Facebook and 692 00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:45,400 Google. And I do think there's a large 693 00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:49,600 number of organizations that still trend towards that. 694 00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:53,360 But then there's the idea of like, we need to know who our 695 00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:55,880 customers are. So I think it for the 696 00:41:55,880 --> 00:42:00,000 convenience of authentication it's needed, but there still 697 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:04,600 needs to be information that the identity really. 698 00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:07,200 And it's just like the the big story about identity access 699 00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:09,480 management. It's like people who were early 700 00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:12,520 on would talk about the importance of the identity, 701 00:42:12,720 --> 00:42:15,880 which really comes back to who's the human being who's 702 00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:18,880 interacting with us and having that information. 703 00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:24,240 That's the asset and. So I, I think it's, it's 704 00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,560 different for different use cases, right? 705 00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:30,680 A bank definitely needs to know who you are. 706 00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:36,200 Amazon simply needs to know that you've got a valid credit card 707 00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:41,520 and maybe a valid ship to address, you know, so, so 708 00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:45,960 different things, different places have different needs for 709 00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:49,120 how much they need to know or how little they need to know. 710 00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:52,520 And yeah, I think that that whole trust framework thing 711 00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:59,720 brings out into it. So I'm curious if there is an 712 00:42:59,720 --> 00:43:05,000 upcoming area of identity that you think is underrated, Like 713 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:08,800 what's something that we should be paying attention to more that 714 00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:15,440 we just aren't as an industry? Right now, well, there's so many 715 00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:16,560 things that we're looking at, right? 716 00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:21,000 I think for me, the single overriding term would probably 717 00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:25,840 be privacy, but privacy specifically from the 718 00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:31,080 perspective that how do I trust the people that have the 719 00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:33,000 attributes about me? Yeah. 720 00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:37,640 And this is really what decentralized identity is, is 721 00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:40,560 sort of trying to address, but that's the reality. 722 00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:43,800 I had what was. Was blockchain absolutely right? 723 00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:47,400 Well, whether it's blockchain or decentralized or something, 724 00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:50,480 something like that, The, the challenge that you come in with, 725 00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:54,880 right, is that for, for, for 2000 years, we've known that 726 00:43:54,880 --> 00:44:00,360 information is power. And, you know, more information 727 00:44:00,720 --> 00:44:05,000 probably means more power. And so the more that you know 728 00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:09,800 about someone, the more you can either mess around with them or 729 00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:11,760 compromise them or whatever the case may be. 730 00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:16,440 And so the question that comes up to me is how do we know that 731 00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:20,080 the people who have access to that information are going to 732 00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:25,400 continue to wear white hats? And how do we stop black hats 733 00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:30,840 from being able to use that information in ways we don't 734 00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:32,880 want them to be able to use, right? 735 00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:37,240 And, and we've seen examples right in, in, I mean, even we, 736 00:44:37,240 --> 00:44:42,120 we take the, the, no matter how you look at the, the Ukrainian 737 00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:45,120 war, right? We've now got a situation where 738 00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:49,000 you've got a hostile political issue, a hostile military issue 739 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:54,400 between 2 powers. The invading force knows if they 740 00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:57,240 get to your tax records, they know where all the money is. 741 00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:02,960 If they get to, you know, the, the, let's call it the social 742 00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:05,680 records, you know, births and deaths and things. 743 00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:09,680 They've got a whole lot of information about the people in 744 00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:12,920 your country that, that they can now leverage. 745 00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:16,280 And so how do we try and protect? 746 00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:19,440 Yeah. And, and this goes back, I think 747 00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:22,320 to to my very early software engineering days, right? 748 00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:26,960 It's, it's a case of when you testing software you never 749 00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:29,680 tested, it works, right? You test for all of the ways 750 00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:33,240 that it can go wrong. And so as we start looking at 751 00:45:33,240 --> 00:45:38,840 things like privacy, how do we protect when things go wrong? 752 00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:42,040 Right? The, the, the, and, and a 753 00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:45,560 perfect case came up for this about three years ago in 754 00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:47,280 Australia. I don't know if you remember it, 755 00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:50,840 but Australia was having the, the national census. 756 00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:53,960 It was an online census. Everybody was, you know, doing 757 00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:57,360 the normal census. And some genius came up with the 758 00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:01,080 idea that says we could use census information in order to 759 00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:06,320 track down deadbeat dads. Right Now, I'm not going to 760 00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:09,080 express an opinion one way or another about there'd be dads, 761 00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:14,400 but that's not a good way to get high participation in your 762 00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:17,880 senses if you're going to say, oh, and we're going to use it to 763 00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:22,320 beat you over the head, right? And that was a very innocuous 764 00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:25,160 thing. It wasn't malevolent in any way. 765 00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:27,880 It was simply, Oh, well, with this information, we can do 766 00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:31,440 that. I think that's something that, 767 00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:34,640 yes, people are aware of it, but I don't think we've had any 768 00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:39,160 really good ways to address it, You know, and, and every single 769 00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:43,000 one of us will, will pick up the phone and, and talk to a vendor 770 00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:45,680 and we'll give them our credit card number and the little 771 00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:49,880 secret code and the date and everything they need on it for, 772 00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:53,120 for where's it going? What's what's happening to that? 773 00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:55,760 Right? I think that's probably one that 774 00:46:55,760 --> 00:47:01,120 I that keeps me awake at night. What do you think is something 775 00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:04,680 that's overrated, that we are talking too much about what's 776 00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:07,240 being shoved down by our, you know, down our throats by the 777 00:47:07,240 --> 00:47:10,000 industry that is? I don't agree with that one. 778 00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:16,480 The, the, the thing for me is it's so easy, and this is 779 00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:19,280 probably not what you wanted to go with, but it's so easy to 780 00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:23,720 blame identity problems on the stupidity of the end user. 781 00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:28,480 And it's not, it's our job, it's the identity industry to make it 782 00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:33,680 so that it just works, right? You know, and I, and I compare 783 00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:36,160 this to like, say the automobile industry, right? 784 00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:40,040 They've made it to the point now where if you even try and open 785 00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:42,560 the hood of your car, somebody from the dealership comes and 786 00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:47,000 slaps your hand, right? And, and it, it, it just works. 787 00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:51,840 And, you know, invariably when we come in conferences and 788 00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:54,520 things people are talking about, well, we need to educate the end 789 00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:58,760 users to use better passwords. No, we've got to come up with a 790 00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:01,680 technology that they don't need to worry about that, right? 791 00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:05,440 Which should just work. And so that's sort of the the 792 00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:08,880 thing for me, it's that that education and to make our users 793 00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:11,920 more aware of the problems, that's our job. 794 00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:13,880 And we should know what the problems are. 795 00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:16,280 And we should come up with, as Jim was talking about earlier, 796 00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:18,840 in terms of these are the problems that we have to fix. 797 00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:21,560 Let's make those problems just go away. 798 00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:24,680 I don't know if that's quite where you want to go, but that's 799 00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:27,720 my little hobby horse. It's it's, it's the hill I'm 800 00:48:27,720 --> 00:48:32,480 standing on. So Alan, I've really been 801 00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:36,400 looking forward to asking you this next question because I've 802 00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:39,000 been thinking about this question for a long time. 803 00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:42,520 Kind of a a baseball nut, as Jeff told you earlier. 804 00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:45,960 And the one question is always like, who's on the baseball? 805 00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:48,600 Mount Rushmore? Like Babe Ruth and Jackie 806 00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:54,000 Robinson, but who else? I wonder who's on the IAM or 807 00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:58,080 identity? Mount Rushmore, which means four 808 00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:01,800 people. First of all, I want a much 809 00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:05,720 bigger mountain so we can get more people on. 810 00:49:05,720 --> 00:49:08,080 That's it. That's a really, wow, that's a 811 00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:09,440 tough question. That's. 812 00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:13,160 Called the Hall of Fame we have one we can have an IAM Hall of 813 00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:14,960 Fame. We'll have you back on another 814 00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:17,840 episode and. Go through the whole Hall of 815 00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:21,000 Fame. I think that there's there's a 816 00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:23,360 couple of folks on there that are that are pretty easy to 817 00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:26,040 identify. Obviously Kim Cameron would be 818 00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:28,880 one of those because he's had such a major impact. 819 00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:30,600 Like the George Washington right? 820 00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:32,920 Identity from, from day one, right? 821 00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:35,880 The, the seven laws of identity sort of defined our industry. 822 00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:41,200 And so, you know, Kim Cameron simply for what he's done and 823 00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:45,520 for the, for the, I think Victoria is another one in that 824 00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:51,240 Victoria Bertucci who is, is, has been, you know, talking 825 00:49:51,240 --> 00:49:56,880 around authorization or to and really trying to educate 826 00:49:56,960 --> 00:50:00,040 developers as to there's better ways to do this, right? 827 00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:05,440 He was passionate about that. As I think about the Mount 828 00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:09,480 Rushmore thing, the, the, the part for me is that I'm sort of 829 00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:13,400 standing back and I'm saying, OK, what qualifies someone to be 830 00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:16,200 up there? And the first thing is that for 831 00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:22,280 me, if, if that's their job, it sort of minimizes it a little 832 00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:24,600 bit for me, right. If, if they're doing it, because 833 00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:28,640 this is, I mean, they may be very good at being a leader and 834 00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:31,640 a speaker and a, and a organizer, whatever it might be. 835 00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:38,720 But if that's what they are paid to do, does that qualify them? 836 00:50:38,720 --> 00:50:40,080 Yes, it, it puts them on the list. 837 00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:43,120 I'm not sure that fully makes them, but there's, there's a 838 00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:47,960 there's a few people that I think are sort of thank they, 839 00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:49,560 they, they work behind the scenes. 840 00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:53,240 One of the people that I would go on that is Don Tebow, but I'm 841 00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:56,920 not even sure that many people on the call even recognize the 842 00:50:56,920 --> 00:51:01,160 name. But Don Tebow was the president 843 00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:04,280 and executive director of the Open ID founder, but I'm not 844 00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:06,520 sure if he was president. I know he was executive director 845 00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:11,640 of the Open ID Foundation and Don through the Open ID 846 00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:14,360 Foundation has been fundamentally dealing with 847 00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:19,200 things like the, the Fappy protocols and the Open ID 848 00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:24,120 Connect and all of these are worth 2, all of these standards. 849 00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:28,160 And it takes a lot of work to build standards and Don has done 850 00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:31,240 a lot of that stuff. Even though yes, his job was 851 00:51:31,240 --> 00:51:36,640 executive director, he was really, really passionate, still 852 00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:39,600 is really passionate about doing those things. 853 00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:45,480 Another one of the people that I think does belong up there, 854 00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:49,200 although he will probably tell me I'm I'm full of beings, is 855 00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:52,680 Andy Handel. Andy. 856 00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:56,600 Even so, Andy, for those of you that don't know him, Andy is the 857 00:51:56,600 --> 00:52:00,080 content curator of all of the content at the Identiverse 858 00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:04,280 conferences for it was announced this year. 859 00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:09,240 I think it's, it was it 15 years, something like that. 860 00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:14,040 And you know, yes, he's paid to do that, but that is not a job 861 00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:16,480 you get paid for. That is a job you do because you 862 00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:18,480 are absolutely passionate about it. 863 00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:23,160 And Andy I think has been, I would say single handedly, but 864 00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:25,640 there's a lot of people that work with him and volunteer with 865 00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:28,560 him. But he is responsible for making 866 00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:31,960 sure that the things we talk about at Ideniverse are relevant 867 00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:36,600 to our industry. And so I, I think he definitely 868 00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:42,600 qualifies for things like that. Another one of the people that I 869 00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:44,280 would put up there. And again, I'm, I'm totally 870 00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:50,520 ignoring your four people thing, but another one someone John 871 00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:52,840 Bradley is another name I would put into that. 872 00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:58,160 John, if you've been to a conference, he's the guy who has 873 00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:02,000 the ponytail in his beard and you probably recognize him if 874 00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:04,720 you see that. But John has been involved in 875 00:53:04,720 --> 00:53:08,800 almost every standard that we work with an identity since the 876 00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:11,360 SAML days. And you know, he was part of the 877 00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:17,400 SAML organization across at least three, probably 4 878 00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:21,800 different companies that he's worked for, which tells me that 879 00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:23,800 isn't he's not doing the job he's paid for. 880 00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:27,040 This is what he loves doing and he happens to find jobs that 881 00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:29,840 that support him being able to do that. 882 00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:34,640 So OK, I'll, I'll go to five. I'll sort of put those up there 883 00:53:34,640 --> 00:53:39,480 as being the, the people, I think who have had incredible 884 00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:41,160 influence. And you know, part of the 885 00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:43,520 problem is that there's another 20 on the list and they all 886 00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:45,640 going to come and phone me and say why didn't I get on your 887 00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:48,000 list? No, but what I would like to do 888 00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:51,480 is for our listeners, I'd like to offer, you know, Jeff, when 889 00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:58,480 Jeff puts out the post on this episode, add your list. 890 00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:01,920 If you've got a Mount Rushmore yourself or you want to make an 891 00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:06,160 argument for somebody, please do so. 892 00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:09,120 Alan, I would love to see that. A list of a few. 893 00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:12,120 I've got a list of a few more questions I wanted to ask. 894 00:54:12,120 --> 00:54:15,400 I'm going to ask them in the format of rapid fire, which 895 00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:19,040 means you have a minute and a half to two minutes maximum. 896 00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:22,080 So if you go over that, we just ask fewer questions. 897 00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:23,480 OK. Right. 898 00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:26,560 We want to. We don't want to overdo this, 899 00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:29,600 but so my first question was something I brought up earlier, 900 00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:33,360 which was, you know, around conferences. 901 00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:34,760 So it's actually a two-part question. 902 00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:37,440 What one, what was your first conference? 903 00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:41,320 And two, what was your favorite conference that you've attended? 904 00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:45,320 All time. So the first conference that I 905 00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:47,840 went to was actually a small little conference we used to 906 00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:51,240 call Mac Hack, and this was back in the late 80s. 907 00:54:51,240 --> 00:54:56,000 I was heavily involved in Mac development and it was a, a 908 00:54:56,400 --> 00:55:00,120 group of us took over a hotel and we started hacking on the 909 00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:01,640 Mac, right? It was essentially a, a 910 00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:07,520 glorified land party. In terms of the favorite, my 911 00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:12,800 favorite one to go to, That's a much harder one because, you 912 00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:16,200 know, I enjoy all of them. But the, the, the two that I 913 00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:20,240 never miss is EIC and identifiers, simply because 914 00:55:20,240 --> 00:55:25,840 those are the ones where not only do I, you know, see what's 915 00:55:25,840 --> 00:55:28,760 new in the industry and things like that, but I get to hang out 916 00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:33,960 with, with my peeps, right? These are where the, the, the 917 00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:36,080 people who do this stuff hang out. 918 00:55:36,080 --> 00:55:38,840 And so I enjoy the social aspects of both of those. 919 00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:44,520 My my first conference was Digital ID World circa O five O 920 00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:47,160 6. I think you might have been 921 00:55:47,160 --> 00:55:48,880 there. Possibly. 922 00:55:49,040 --> 00:55:54,240 Open my eyes to this identity industry and I was like, it's 923 00:55:54,240 --> 00:55:58,120 not just technology, but it's like philosophy. 924 00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:03,120 Like what is an identity? You know, like like mind blowing 925 00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:07,280 question, mind expanding stuff. And then you had Kim, Kim 926 00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:10,760 Cameron come on and talk about the laws of identity. 927 00:56:11,120 --> 00:56:13,960 And literally it was like it made so much sense. 928 00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:17,760 But like you can see the reverence from him for him in 929 00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:20,720 real time. I think it was like around the 930 00:56:20,720 --> 00:56:23,760 year where he was joining Microsoft. 931 00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:26,960 So it was like he was coming from his previous life into 932 00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:30,080 Microsoft. It was just like a really cool 933 00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:33,120 time, a really cool conference. Jeff, what was your first 934 00:56:33,120 --> 00:56:36,400 conference? You know, I was, I, I, I was 935 00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:38,400 hoping he wouldn't ask me because I'm trying to remember 936 00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:41,520 it was. Probably right? 937 00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:43,560 What's that? Weren't you at the first 938 00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:44,800 Identiverse? Well, like. 939 00:56:45,040 --> 00:56:47,880 Yes, but I think it was Cloud Identity conference or something 940 00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:49,240 like that at the time that cloud. 941 00:56:49,240 --> 00:56:51,120 Identity Summit. That cloud identity summit, 942 00:56:51,120 --> 00:56:53,200 yeah, that was probably one of the first I'd been to. 943 00:56:53,640 --> 00:56:56,920 So my background identity was really more heads down in 944 00:56:56,920 --> 00:56:59,760 enterprise doing, you know, real IM work. 945 00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:04,160 I wasn't a thinker, still not a thinker was doing provisioning 946 00:57:04,160 --> 00:57:09,560 of accounts, right. So my, my solar system, my 947 00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:13,960 universe of identity and access management was Walgreens and SC 948 00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:15,840 Johnson. That's what I knew because 949 00:57:15,840 --> 00:57:17,560 that's what I was doing. That's where I worked. 950 00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:19,280 I knew how accounts are provisioned. 951 00:57:19,280 --> 00:57:21,840 I knew how operations ran, I knew how technology worked, 952 00:57:21,840 --> 00:57:24,000 etcetera. And then I, when I got into 953 00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:27,360 consulting, that's when like everything just kind of blew up. 954 00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:29,880 You know, I was like, oh, wait, there's so much more to this, 955 00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:32,920 which is really why I wanted to do consulting was to learn more 956 00:57:32,920 --> 00:57:36,960 about it, right? So you know, the 1st ten of the 957 00:57:36,960 --> 00:57:41,040 20 plus years I've had in this was not even in this industry of 958 00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:44,520 IAM, as we'll call it, it was doing identity work like that 959 00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:46,360 was my thing. So I really didn't attend 960 00:57:46,360 --> 00:57:52,360 conferences until 2016, I guess. And now you know, I I try to hit 961 00:57:52,360 --> 00:57:54,880 every identity. I think I've been to every Cloud 962 00:57:54,880 --> 00:57:57,200 identity summit slash identity since then, but. 963 00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:01,120 It's pretty cool though. Yeah, I mean, I I enjoy going to 964 00:58:01,120 --> 00:58:04,800 conferences mostly because like Alan, I get to talk to people 965 00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:09,720 and meet new people and my historic being a wallflower and 966 00:58:09,720 --> 00:58:12,840 and not really being that outgoing despite the, you know, 967 00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:17,240 obvious charm that I exhume on this podcast doesn't manifest 968 00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:18,640 itself typically in the real world. 969 00:58:18,640 --> 00:58:21,040 So I've kind of gotten out of that shell a little bit and, you 970 00:58:21,040 --> 00:58:25,200 know, meeting people and being more open to, you know, shaking 971 00:58:25,200 --> 00:58:27,160 hands and kissing babies, right, and all that good stuff. 972 00:58:27,160 --> 00:58:32,320 So every, every conference I go to has been better than the 973 00:58:32,320 --> 00:58:34,480 last. But I especially, I particularly 974 00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:36,400 enjoy the Identiverse conference and the authenticate 975 00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:39,480 conferences. For whatever reason, the vibe at 976 00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:42,640 the the at those just seem very welcoming and appealing. 977 00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:47,520 So much for the rapid fire succession. 978 00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:50,920 The next question, though, was for Alan. 979 00:58:51,160 --> 00:58:55,320 So what is Alan's future hold? You're in retirement now for 980 00:58:55,400 --> 00:58:57,880 officially, but you're still doing things. 981 00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:04,640 So the I, I answered this one a lot at, at both EIC and 982 00:59:04,640 --> 00:59:06,000 Identiverse, people would come to me. 983 00:59:06,000 --> 00:59:07,920 What are you doing here? I thought you were retired. 984 00:59:08,520 --> 00:59:11,840 And, you know, for me, retirement simply means I 985 00:59:11,840 --> 00:59:14,880 stopped doing the things I had to do and could not concentrate 986 00:59:14,880 --> 00:59:18,280 on the things that I want to do and, and the conferences I want 987 00:59:18,280 --> 00:59:20,760 to do because that's where I get to meet all the cool kids, 988 00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:22,400 right? And, and where we hang out. 989 00:59:22,760 --> 00:59:27,240 But what's in it for me now? Well, I've just, I, I enjoy 990 00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:29,320 sailing. So this is actually about 3 991 00:59:29,320 --> 00:59:34,480 weeks ago, I got my Blue Ocean passage maker certification from 992 00:59:34,560 --> 00:59:37,680 ASA. So that was, we sailed from 993 00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:41,120 Bermuda to New York, which was a, a really fun sail. 994 00:59:42,680 --> 00:59:45,720 And I'm working on my instrument pilot's license. 995 00:59:46,960 --> 00:59:53,960 I have a, one of my, my side hobbies is, well, I, I guess I 996 00:59:53,960 --> 00:59:58,520 bought a, my wife and I went down to Argentina last year and 997 00:59:58,600 --> 01:00:03,720 ended up buying a small farm in Argentina, which has a great 998 01:00:03,720 --> 01:00:07,360 find on it. And so now I'm signed up at UC 999 01:00:07,600 --> 01:00:10,000 Davis doing a wine makers course. 1000 01:00:11,600 --> 01:00:13,920 So I'm busier now than I ever was. 1001 01:00:15,240 --> 01:00:18,680 And you know, I love, I love just learning about things, 1002 01:00:18,680 --> 01:00:20,880 doing new things, working out how things work. 1003 01:00:21,320 --> 01:00:25,600 And I've I've enjoyed the drinking side of wine, so I 1004 01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:27,960 thought I may as well go and see how it gets made. 1005 01:00:27,960 --> 01:00:30,360 And. Save so much money if you make 1006 01:00:30,360 --> 01:00:35,520 your own. So that's some of the things 1007 01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:38,240 last. Question for you, Alan. 1008 01:00:39,680 --> 01:00:42,640 It's kind of a deep, deep thought question, but what is 1009 01:00:42,640 --> 01:00:47,320 your identity and access management legacy going to be? 1010 01:00:49,200 --> 01:00:57,120 Wow. The, the, I don't know that it's 1011 01:00:57,120 --> 01:01:02,680 specifically to identity or to IAM and things like that, but I 1012 01:01:02,680 --> 01:01:07,280 think the legacy that that I would like to be remembered for 1013 01:01:07,760 --> 01:01:13,280 is in encouraging people to ask why. 1014 01:01:16,240 --> 01:01:20,080 It's, it's, it's one thing to be able to know how to do 1015 01:01:20,080 --> 01:01:24,640 something, but to be able to ask why are we doing it that way? 1016 01:01:24,640 --> 01:01:28,840 Why does it work that way? Why, why is it not working, 1017 01:01:28,880 --> 01:01:32,760 etcetera, means that we can open up is, and you sort of mentioned 1018 01:01:32,760 --> 01:01:35,720 this at the very beginning of the podcast where it, it gives 1019 01:01:35,720 --> 01:01:38,600 you their creativity to look at a problem, to troubleshoot it 1020 01:01:38,600 --> 01:01:43,040 and to ask why. And I've always tried to get 1021 01:01:43,040 --> 01:01:46,400 people to sort of think, whether it's thinking outside of the box 1022 01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:49,080 or thinking about what's going wrong. 1023 01:01:50,320 --> 01:01:53,560 I've never been a fan of the, well, reboot it and see if it 1024 01:01:53,560 --> 01:01:57,680 goes away model that. That's never, for me, a good 1025 01:01:57,680 --> 01:02:00,840 solution. So that's probably where I'd 1026 01:02:00,840 --> 01:02:04,400 like to be remembered. So I'm going to, I'm going to 1027 01:02:04,400 --> 01:02:06,840 try to add some levity to it. Kind of a morbid question, but 1028 01:02:07,120 --> 01:02:11,920 would your would your tombstone just say why on it? 1029 01:02:11,920 --> 01:02:18,000 Why you had to know Alan to know why that was there. 1030 01:02:20,880 --> 01:02:21,840 All right, why don't we go ahead? 1031 01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:24,400 Because I, I have an, I have a little bit of a trivia question 1032 01:02:24,480 --> 01:02:28,840 for Jim. What do Charlie's Charlize 1033 01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:32,600 Theron, Elon Musk and Alan Foster all have in common? 1034 01:02:32,960 --> 01:02:36,080 See if you can figure this out. Well, what do they have in 1035 01:02:36,080 --> 01:02:38,400 common? Alan. 1036 01:02:39,240 --> 01:02:44,280 Well, I'm not as good looking as Charlize Theron, but a, we're 1037 01:02:44,280 --> 01:02:47,400 actually all South Africans, or at least we were all born in 1038 01:02:47,400 --> 01:02:49,560 South Africa. But more importantly, we were 1039 01:02:49,560 --> 01:02:54,160 all born within 30 miles of each other and, and probably within a 1040 01:02:54,160 --> 01:02:56,600 couple of years of each other. I don't know quite how that 1041 01:02:56,600 --> 01:03:01,640 works out, but yeah, we, we were all born within about half an 1042 01:03:01,640 --> 01:03:04,280 hour's drive from, from each other. 1043 01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:07,080 That's my my little bit of trivia, my little brush with 1044 01:03:07,080 --> 01:03:10,600 greatness. Does that give us like a, is 1045 01:03:10,600 --> 01:03:12,800 there like a, a Six degrees of Kevin Bacon? 1046 01:03:12,800 --> 01:03:15,920 Can we do like a a three degrees of Alan Foster somehow? 1047 01:03:15,920 --> 01:03:18,720 And, well, 1° from Alan Foster is Elon Musk, so there's that 1048 01:03:18,720 --> 01:03:22,600 one sitting there, so. So I've never been to South 1049 01:03:22,600 --> 01:03:23,480 Africa. I know very little. 1050 01:03:23,480 --> 01:03:26,400 I don't think we've ever had anyone on the show from South 1051 01:03:26,440 --> 01:03:29,720 Africa. What is something that I should 1052 01:03:29,720 --> 01:03:32,000 know as someone who knows only? That. 1053 01:03:32,480 --> 01:03:35,240 Those people were born there and Trevor Noah, that's about it. 1054 01:03:35,560 --> 01:03:42,000 And, and Trevor Noah, yeah, I mean, as, as a country, it is a, 1055 01:03:42,320 --> 01:03:44,160 it is a fascinating country, right? 1056 01:03:44,160 --> 01:03:47,240 It's a very beautiful country. And if you get an opportunity to 1057 01:03:47,240 --> 01:03:49,280 visit, it's well worth taking the visit. 1058 01:03:49,760 --> 01:03:56,960 I mean, the, a country that goes from heavy tropical banana trees 1059 01:03:57,680 --> 01:04:02,920 and, and to high deserts to sugar cane and swamplands. 1060 01:04:02,920 --> 01:04:07,960 You know, it's all there and, and you know, as a visit it, 1061 01:04:08,040 --> 01:04:13,920 it's, it has had an awful lot of impact across the world, right. 1062 01:04:13,920 --> 01:04:16,920 You run into people who were originally from South Africa, 1063 01:04:16,920 --> 01:04:20,320 They, they came from there. And, and so that's where we grew 1064 01:04:20,320 --> 01:04:22,240 up originally as a British colony. 1065 01:04:22,240 --> 01:04:23,880 Can't we can't blame us for that. 1066 01:04:24,120 --> 01:04:30,320 But the and interestingly, South Africa and the US have a very 1067 01:04:30,320 --> 01:04:32,920 parallel history in terms of time frames. 1068 01:04:33,320 --> 01:04:36,800 When when the Pilgrims came to the US was about the same time 1069 01:04:36,800 --> 01:04:40,320 that the Dutch colonized South Africa and and there's some 1070 01:04:40,320 --> 01:04:45,240 being repeated history events. So, Alan, one question I had is, 1071 01:04:45,560 --> 01:04:49,760 you know, American shrink coffee, Brit's drink tea, What 1072 01:04:49,760 --> 01:04:53,120 is South Africa's shrink? Mainly coffee. 1073 01:04:53,120 --> 01:04:57,960 The, the, we were definitely a coffee family or it's sort of on 1074 01:04:57,960 --> 01:04:59,960 both sides. There's tea and coffee, right? 1075 01:05:00,280 --> 01:05:04,800 But we were definitely a coffee, coffee family and, and most 1076 01:05:04,800 --> 01:05:06,520 everybody I had drank coffee down there. 1077 01:05:08,480 --> 01:05:11,000 And then of course. What is your coffee consumption 1078 01:05:11,000 --> 01:05:12,840 like? I mean, do you start your day 1079 01:05:12,840 --> 01:05:14,840 with a coffee? Do you drink it all the way to 1080 01:05:14,840 --> 01:05:17,920 you go to bed? How much coffee is is the right 1081 01:05:17,920 --> 01:05:21,400 amount for you. So I, I normally go through six 1082 01:05:21,400 --> 01:05:24,960 or seven cups a day. So I, I start my day with, I 1083 01:05:24,960 --> 01:05:28,600 mean, this is my, my, my Ford rock cup. 1084 01:05:29,200 --> 01:05:32,800 And that's my, my start, my starting cup of coffee. 1085 01:05:33,360 --> 01:05:39,360 And I normally have my last one sort of just before I open up a 1086 01:05:39,360 --> 01:05:41,080 bottle of wine to go with dinner. 1087 01:05:41,080 --> 01:05:43,720 So you know about 5:00 is sort of the last coffee. 1088 01:05:44,440 --> 01:05:47,400 OK. So now let me ask you one final 1089 01:05:47,400 --> 01:05:49,160 question. If I wrap things up, you're 1090 01:05:49,160 --> 01:05:52,640 flying back to South Africa and you're landing. 1091 01:05:53,440 --> 01:05:57,440 What's the first food thing that you go for in South Africa? 1092 01:05:57,440 --> 01:06:01,600 Is there like a go to place or meal or something that you're 1093 01:06:01,600 --> 01:06:04,680 like for me, like I go back to Chicago and it's like I got to 1094 01:06:04,680 --> 01:06:05,920 go to Portillo's and get a hot dog. 1095 01:06:07,200 --> 01:06:09,480 For you going to South Africa, where are you? 1096 01:06:09,480 --> 01:06:11,320 Where are you headed to right after the airport to get 1097 01:06:11,320 --> 01:06:14,120 somebody? So we we have a a social event 1098 01:06:14,120 --> 01:06:18,480 which is called a bra and a bra is about as close as a BBQ. 1099 01:06:18,480 --> 01:06:20,680 It's basically a fire and grilled meat. 1100 01:06:21,560 --> 01:06:25,360 And that is how we live like every weekend. 1101 01:06:25,360 --> 01:06:30,640 And so the idea having that and all the compliments that go 1102 01:06:30,640 --> 01:06:34,000 along with a bride, obviously there's a beer or two or three 1103 01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:36,680 that go along with that. But yeah, that outdoor, that 1104 01:06:36,680 --> 01:06:41,240 outdoor BBQ, that outdoor grill is, is sort of the standard. 1105 01:06:41,520 --> 01:06:44,400 That's that's home. I'm sold. 1106 01:06:45,400 --> 01:06:48,680 I can get behind that. All right, why don't we go ahead 1107 01:06:48,680 --> 01:06:51,400 and wrap it up for this week? Alan, thank you so much for 1108 01:06:51,400 --> 01:06:54,600 taking the time with us. This, this stroll down I am 1109 01:06:54,600 --> 01:06:56,840 memory lane. I don't know, still working on a 1110 01:06:56,840 --> 01:06:59,600 title in my head here, but it's been really eye opening. 1111 01:06:59,600 --> 01:07:01,480 It's, it's, it's always fascinating for me to hear the 1112 01:07:01,480 --> 01:07:03,800 stories behind the things right, from the people who are sort of 1113 01:07:03,800 --> 01:07:08,000 in the room or at the pub or wherever things kind of started 1114 01:07:08,000 --> 01:07:09,600 right, or, or whatever it may be. 1115 01:07:09,600 --> 01:07:12,240 So, and now you're part of the Digital Identity Advancement 1116 01:07:12,240 --> 01:07:14,400 Foundation and you've done work with ID Pro. 1117 01:07:14,400 --> 01:07:16,080 We want to make sure we get plugs out for them. 1118 01:07:16,080 --> 01:07:19,640 ID pro.org, fantastic organization, we're all part of 1119 01:07:19,640 --> 01:07:21,480 that. The Slack channel, definitely 1120 01:07:21,480 --> 01:07:23,760 worth its money just just for that alone. 1121 01:07:24,000 --> 01:07:29,000 For the conversation standpoint, DIAF dot link, that's the the 1122 01:07:29,160 --> 01:07:31,920 link for the Digital Identity Investment Foundation. 1123 01:07:31,920 --> 01:07:35,560 So for folks who are newer to identity, there's ways there 1124 01:07:35,560 --> 01:07:38,360 that people who are in the space or anyone really can kind of 1125 01:07:38,360 --> 01:07:40,840 support make sure that we have the next generation coming 1126 01:07:40,840 --> 01:07:43,320 through. So I'll have links in our show 1127 01:07:43,320 --> 01:07:45,720 notes for that kind of stuff that people hopefully will go 1128 01:07:45,720 --> 01:07:47,440 check out. Let's see what else. 1129 01:07:47,440 --> 01:07:49,440 We're on the web, idacpodcast.com. 1130 01:07:49,440 --> 01:07:52,600 We're on X Twitter, whatever it's called by the time your 1131 01:07:52,840 --> 01:07:57,320 your face or ears consume this at IDAC podcast, we're on 1132 01:07:57,320 --> 01:07:58,800 YouTube. If you're not watching us on 1133 01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:01,840 YouTube, do us a favor, go over and like and subscribe. 1134 01:08:01,840 --> 01:08:03,400 We're trying to grow to the YouTube channel. 1135 01:08:03,760 --> 01:08:08,920 Make it super easyidacpodcast.tvsoidacpodcast.tv 1136 01:08:08,920 --> 01:08:12,280 will take you right to our YouTube channel and would 1137 01:08:12,280 --> 01:08:15,400 appreciate a, a subscribe and A and a like on a video. 1138 01:08:16,680 --> 01:08:18,640 Let's see what else Connect with us on LinkedIn. 1139 01:08:18,720 --> 01:08:21,560 I'll have Alan's LinkedIn connection information in our 1140 01:08:21,560 --> 01:08:26,000 show notes so you can either share stories about Bry's or 1141 01:08:26,680 --> 01:08:28,600 coffee consumption. Wine. 1142 01:08:28,840 --> 01:08:32,240 My wife is very into wine, so she'll be very much tuning into 1143 01:08:32,240 --> 01:08:35,240 that conversation. And anything else, Jim, that I 1144 01:08:35,240 --> 01:08:38,840 forget or are we good to go? No, you mentioned everything. 1145 01:08:38,840 --> 01:08:42,359 I did want to just thank Ellen, not only for being on the show, 1146 01:08:42,359 --> 01:08:45,760 but just all the contributions you're making and people like 1147 01:08:45,760 --> 01:08:49,680 you have made over the years. I mean, it's made things a lot 1148 01:08:49,680 --> 01:08:53,120 easier for the practitioners today. 1149 01:08:53,120 --> 01:08:59,000 And I think what you're doing with DIAF is, you know, really 1150 01:08:59,000 --> 01:09:02,080 important. It's about the next generation 1151 01:09:02,359 --> 01:09:05,040 of identity people. And we all have that 1152 01:09:05,040 --> 01:09:07,760 responsibility. Pass it on, you know, pay it 1153 01:09:07,760 --> 01:09:10,840 forward however you want to. You want to refer to it. 1154 01:09:11,920 --> 01:09:16,560 I think we've all received and we should all make sure that we 1155 01:09:16,560 --> 01:09:19,720 give back. Great way to end it. 1156 01:09:19,720 --> 01:09:22,680 So we'll leave it there. Thanks everyone for watching or 1157 01:09:22,680 --> 01:09:24,319 listening. Thanks, Alan. 1158 01:09:24,319 --> 01:09:26,160 Thanks, Jim. And we'll talk to everyone in 1159 01:09:26,160 --> 01:09:30,120 the next one. You've been listening to 1160 01:09:30,200 --> 01:09:34,120 Identity at the center. We hope you've enjoyed the show. 1161 01:09:34,319 --> 01:09:38,399 Make sure to like, rate and review, and we'll be back soon. 1162 01:09:38,680 --> 01:09:40,960 But in the meantime, hit the website at 1163 01:09:40,960 --> 01:09:47,279 identity@thecenter.com. See you next time on Identity at 1164 01:09:47,279 --> 01:09:48,200 the Center.