1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,880 Every second that when you hit that button on the app to say 2 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:06,360 start my vehicle, unlock my door, call for help, right, 3 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:09,440 Whatever it may be. That is all mission critical 4 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:12,480 things where you cannot have identity be the slowest link in 5 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:15,240 the chain. How do you tackle speed when it 6 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:18,120 comes to make it secure but make it fast? 7 00:00:19,240 --> 00:00:21,800 Yeah, that's, that's part of the process of bringing things to 8 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:27,000 production to make sure that you have the, the performance, the 9 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:31,480 response, the, the, the, the least latency involved when 10 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:35,400 making. So there's in all of the best 11 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:37,840 practices that need to be brought to bear when it comes to 12 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:41,600 edge computing, right? To be able to make calls to an 13 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:46,560 API services layer that can respond and, and recognize that 14 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:50,120 a a user is authenticated and have authenticated with MFA and 15 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:54,880 that we can process this request versus yeah, this doesn't look 16 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:57,000 right. Let's reject the request. 17 00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:58,560 Let's cancel this session because they've been 18 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:00,400 compromised, right? We get a threat signal that says 19 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:02,240 that the user may be compromised, right. 20 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:05,280 So those are things that have to be taken into account. 21 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:11,200 But yeah, at our scale and, and to be able to have a response 22 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:13,480 time when you start your vehicle of a couple of seconds is, is 23 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:17,480 something that is AI think it's the highest level of of 24 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:20,600 distributed system engineering at our level that to be able to 25 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:23,440 get that done. And it's there's a lot involved. 26 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:26,320 Like you just said, there's, there's so many systems, so many 27 00:01:26,320 --> 00:01:29,920 interactions that happen that the customer never sees right, 28 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:33,120 but that we have to get involved with to make sure there's 29 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:37,200 policies that get touched, that get triggered so many points 30 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:46,080 along the way. This is identity at the center. 31 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:52,480 If it has anything to do with IAM, this is the go to podcast 32 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:57,160 now your hosts Jim McDonald and Jeff Steadman. 33 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:04,760 Welcome to the Identical Center podcast. 34 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:06,320 I'm Jeff, and that's Jim. Hey, Jim. 35 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:09,440 Hey, Jeff, how are you? Oh, not so bad yourself. 36 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:11,360 Good guess what I'm thinking about but. 37 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:14,480 Yeah, I mean. Wrong. 38 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:16,600 Wrong. This is a safer word podcast, so 39 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:19,760 I don't know what what are you thinking about? 40 00:02:20,640 --> 00:02:22,120 Well, I was thinking about ID Pro. 41 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:26,920 I was on, you know, I was in the Slack channel and it's just so 42 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:31,560 full of treasures. So I was just scrolling through 43 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:34,920 the general post and Hannah Souter had a post out there that 44 00:02:34,920 --> 00:02:39,040 was about demonstration of proof of possession. 45 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:41,240 I'd never really write up on that. 46 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:45,520 And someone posted an article that broke it down into like the 47 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:48,440 one O 1 level. And I was like this. 48 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:50,920 This is why I'm a member of ID Pro. 49 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:53,680 And I would encourage anybody who's listening to this podcast 50 00:02:53,920 --> 00:02:58,080 through you found the wrong podcast or you should be a 51 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:02,000 member of ID Pro. Yeah, it's worth the I think 52 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:06,040 it's, I think it's 150 bucks and it is well worth it just for the 53 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:09,200 Slack channels alone. But you get so much more with it 54 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:10,920 too, right? You get access to a bunch of 55 00:03:10,920 --> 00:03:14,840 resources and just cool people, nice people, friendly people. 56 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:15,920 This is why I like the identity space. 57 00:03:15,920 --> 00:03:19,880 But yeah, big fan of ID Pro. There's also, I think it got 58 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:23,720 posted maybe in the last couple days or so, there are some board 59 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:26,320 positions open up. So for people who aren't aware, 60 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:28,880 that's something, if they're interested in giving back, there 61 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:33,280 is, I'm not sure how many one, maybe 2 board spots open, but go 62 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:35,040 check out the ID Pro website if that's something you're 63 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:37,480 interested. And then of course ID Pro has a 64 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:39,600 big presence of things like Identifer and and so forth. 65 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:43,680 Yeah, I mean, they're they're dedicated to the education 66 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:46,680 within the industry. I would also say it's like, you 67 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:50,560 know, Hannah made that post. She's a very advanced identity 68 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:53,840 practitioner. Anybody sitting out there 69 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:56,560 listening is like, yeah, I, I don't even know what that is. 70 00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:00,680 And feeling intimidated. You could be a total beginner 71 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:03,560 first year or two in the industry and post a question. 72 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:05,720 Nobody's going to judge you negatively. 73 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:09,240 You can be a total expert and I do just not have had the 74 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:10,600 experience on that. That's fine too. 75 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:13,680 Yeah, yeah. I found myself posting questions 76 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:16,800 sometimes the I wonder if people are going to think this is a 77 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:21,560 dumb question, but I shouldn't have that thought because I 78 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:23,560 don't think people look at it that way. 79 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:26,000 They're excited. People are excited if they have 80 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:28,760 an opportunity to kind of give back and respond to some of 81 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:30,480 those questions. Yeah. 82 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:33,000 I mean, look, yeah, This is why I got into consulting was when I 83 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:35,720 was in, you know, the real world of I am. 84 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:38,800 You really only know what you work on, and the opportunity to 85 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:42,840 get into other areas that your organization doesn't do is 86 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:46,600 generally not going to happen. So there are lots of people who 87 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:49,400 are focused, like, for example, IGA, privilege, access 88 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:50,840 management. Maybe they're just a funnication 89 00:04:50,840 --> 00:04:52,000 they work at just in Microsoft, right? 90 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:54,720 There's so much to learn, so much to know. 91 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:56,640 You will never know at all. Jim, you and I have been doing 92 00:04:56,640 --> 00:05:00,080 this for what, 2025 years each. Our guests have been doing it 93 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:03,080 for a long time. There's just too much to learn 94 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:05,960 at any, you know, at a very expert level. 95 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:08,440 It's very difficult to do. Plus, there's always something 96 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:12,040 new coming up. I mean, remember when self 97 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:14,280 sovereign identity was like the thing that was going to change 98 00:05:14,280 --> 00:05:16,320 the world? Still waiting for it, you know, 99 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:18,800 a couple years later, but there's always something new 100 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:20,680 coming up. Now you've got AI that's going 101 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:22,920 to change things. So ask the questions, go 102 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:26,040 research it, and you'll find that ID Pro Select Channel is an 103 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:29,200 awesome place to get answers. How do you prove Slack channel 104 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:31,800 and then this podcast, because a lot of times when you brought up 105 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:37,800 the that that topic, we a lot of times get guests on, you know, 106 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:40,880 say David Motti or something and he'll talk about something like 107 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:43,320 machine identities. It's like, yeah, nobody's 108 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:45,680 talking about that. Two years later, it's like 109 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:49,080 everybody's talking about machine identities and not human 110 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:53,000 identities. And so, you know, we keep 111 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:55,440 pushing ourselves, like, all right, let's bring a guest on 112 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:57,880 who's going to talk about something that we don't know a 113 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:01,240 whole lot about, but we're good at asking questions. 114 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:04,560 Yeah, I mean, you can explain that to to us, to dummies, 115 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:06,800 hopefully other people who are way smarter than us and pick it 116 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:09,920 up over audio or video from a podcast standpoint. 117 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:13,000 Exactly. You know another great source 118 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:14,920 here. Here's my tricky lead. 119 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:18,360 And another great source for learning is conferences. 120 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:21,000 We happen to have discount codes galore. 121 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:24,200 Yeah, that that was a pro Segway, I got to say. 122 00:06:24,280 --> 00:06:27,000 So yeah, conferences, we've got a bunch of them. 123 00:06:27,280 --> 00:06:30,520 The one that is coming up next is going to be London, the 124 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:33,840 Gartner I am Summit there. So that's March 24th and 25th. 125 00:06:33,840 --> 00:06:38,840 If you use the code IDAC 425, that will save you 425. 126 00:06:38,840 --> 00:06:44,120 I think we settled on EUR 425 of some currency off of that. 127 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:47,120 But that's a great one to go with time, especially, you know, 128 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:49,480 for for folks that are maybe in the London area or maybe Europe 129 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:52,480 at large. We won't be there, but we will 130 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:55,040 probably be at the one later this year in the USI have to 131 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:57,880 imagine we've kind of gone for the last several years, but they 132 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:00,400 were nice enough to extend that. So we're passing along. 133 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:02,360 And you don't have to remember any of these. 134 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:03,840 They'll always be on our website. 135 00:07:03,840 --> 00:07:07,560 If you go to idacpodcast.com and just Scroll down, you'll see all 136 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:10,360 the different conference discounts that we've got or any 137 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:12,760 other things we have going on. I kind of fight there real 138 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:15,840 easily. So there's that one and then the 139 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:17,320 one you and I are pretty excited about. 140 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:20,200 Yeah, this is Berlin. I just booked my flight 141 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:22,360 yesterday, or maybe it was the day before. 142 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:26,400 So May 6th to the 9th, It's in Berlin, it's the Cooper, your 143 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:29,240 coal, European identity and cloud conference. 144 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:34,040 If you use the code ID AC25 MKO you get 25% off. 145 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:36,080 So Jim, you and I are going to be there very excited. 146 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:40,760 All I have booked right now is a flight into Germany and a hotel. 147 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:43,480 I have not yet figured out what I'm going to do after that. 148 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:48,760 My wife and I are still kind of planning post Berlin but I'm 149 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:49,960 excited to be out there for the first time. 150 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:52,760 Never actually been in Germany other than the Frankfurt Airport 151 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:54,520 on my way to China. India so. 152 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:57,120 Yeah, and getting outside of the airport will be great. 153 00:07:57,800 --> 00:07:58,760 Yes. Yes, I will. 154 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:02,960 And I'm going the week before, I'm going to be in Oslo the week 155 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:07,160 before and we're doing an identity beer and already have 156 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:11,160 at least four people signed up for that and hopefully that list 157 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:14,040 extends further. So if you're a practitioner 158 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:18,400 involved in identity in some way or at least interested enough to 159 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:22,560 listen to this podcast, and you can be in Oslo the week before 160 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:27,120 or live there, reach out to me on LinkedIn and love to get you 161 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:30,560 involved in that identity beer. Yeah, We haven't picked the 162 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:32,799 exact date yet. Those are all I, I have. 163 00:08:32,799 --> 00:08:33,760 I don't think I've ever been to one. 164 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:36,720 But you'll be out there touring the countryside, beer identity, 165 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:39,720 beer in hand, I guess. I had a couple people reach out 166 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:41,840 to me on LinkedIn, you know, graciously being, you know, 167 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:44,600 offering to like show me around and things like that. 168 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:46,520 I don't know where I will end up yet. 169 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:49,000 So I apologize if I don't get back to everybody or if I don't 170 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:52,240 hit your city. There's just too much to do in 171 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:55,880 in one week that I have between Berlin and trying to trying to 172 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:57,000 get back to the US. So. 173 00:08:57,640 --> 00:08:59,720 Hopefully this isn't the last time we go to. 174 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:03,440 No, I think hopefully we can turn this into an annual 175 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:07,400 pilgrimage or something, maybe for IDC to head out to to the 176 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:10,560 cooker. No conference after that's done, 177 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:15,280 vacation a little bit and then Las Vegas for Ideniverse, that 178 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:17,680 one is June 3rd to the 6th. Again, you and I are going to be 179 00:09:17,680 --> 00:09:19,920 doing some stuff there. I don't think we're quite ready 180 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:23,080 to announce some of the fun things we've got lined up, but 181 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:25,120 we're still coordinating on how that exactly will work. 182 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:32,000 But it will be a very fun, another type of thing that we 183 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:34,480 have done in the past that we're excited to bring to Ideniverse. 184 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:36,640 I'll just leave it there. Probably not a probably not very 185 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:39,680 good. I, I, I probably didn't 186 00:09:39,680 --> 00:09:42,360 obfuscate that enough. So people will be able to figure 187 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:47,120 that out. But June 3rd or 6th IDV 25-I D 188 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:52,400 AC2525 percent off and you'll be able to take advantage of that. 189 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:54,640 And that's, and that stacks up the discounts as well. 190 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:56,800 So you definitely want to take a look at that. 191 00:09:57,480 --> 00:09:59,080 Yeah. So, Jeff, between those two 192 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:01,760 conferences, are you going to get any work done this summer? 193 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:06,840 I have to because I have clients so they're going to be expecting 194 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:08,400 work to get done. So yeah, I will be working 195 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:13,200 things in between editing, broadcasting, publishing, 196 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:16,120 working, all that good stuff. And hopefully I'll be able to 197 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:18,400 unplug a little bit and while I'm in Europe to to check out 198 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:20,040 the sites. Exactly. 199 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:23,040 Yeah, enjoy yourself a little bit for sure. 200 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:24,960 Yeah. The other thing that we wanted 201 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:27,600 to mention was we don't have the discount code for it yet, but 202 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:31,800 we've been going to the Fido Authenticate conference for I 203 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:34,760 don't know what is it in three or four years now in a row. 204 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:37,200 And we've been doing something there, will probably do 205 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:40,000 something again this year. We just haven't gotten that far 206 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:44,680 with our planning yet. The conferences in October, but 207 00:10:44,680 --> 00:10:49,840 if you want to be a speaker, if you have an idea for a paper to 208 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:54,360 submit to present on that deadline's coming up. 209 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:59,520 March 3rd, 2025 is the deadline. Go to authenticatecon.com. 210 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:03,480 We can figure out the navigation then to submit a paper, and I 211 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:06,960 would definitely recommend that. I think our discount code's 212 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:11,800 usually pretty good, but I don't think speakers have to pay to 213 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:15,080 get into the conference town. But if I say that and that's not 214 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:16,640 true. Andrew's probably like shaking 215 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:18,640 his fist at the at the radio right now. 216 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:22,560 Oh yeah, yeah, he's turn up the heart if you're listening and to 217 00:11:22,560 --> 00:11:25,840 turn apart and stop listening to this. 218 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:28,400 So no. But if you're interested in 219 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:31,080 presenting our, that's the deadline. 220 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:33,920 OK, that's enough babbling from us again. 221 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:36,400 Check out the website that'll have the discount codes. 222 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:39,040 I'm excited to welcome our guests on. 223 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:42,040 He has been in the identity space for a very long time. 224 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:45,400 He is Andrew Cameron, he's a technical fellow in identity and 225 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:47,200 access management at General Motors. 226 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:49,880 And before we go any further, Andrew, I don't want to say hi 227 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:51,600 yet. I got to make a disclaimer, 228 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:53,760 right? These are your views. 229 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:58,560 The views expressed on this podcast by Andrew are his and 230 00:11:58,560 --> 00:12:01,440 not General Motors. So we're going to make that very 231 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:03,280 clear. So I'm I'm going to swear you in 232 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:05,080 Andrew, do you agree? No, that's fine. 233 00:12:05,560 --> 00:12:10,320 Yes, I agree 100%. Welcome officially Andrew to the 234 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:11,880 show. We're very excited to have you 235 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:13,720 here. Gentlemen, I am honored and 236 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:15,520 privileged. You can't be in the identity 237 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:18,760 industry and not know about this podcast, and so I'm excited to 238 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:20,520 be here. Well, we're happy to have you 239 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:21,560 here. People still discover it. 240 00:12:21,560 --> 00:12:24,120 So you know that's it's always great when you have new 241 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:26,080 listeners and new guests on the show. 242 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:28,480 We have tradition. First time anyone comes on the 243 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:30,040 show, we ask them for their identity background. 244 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:32,320 You've been doing this for a long time, not to age you, 245 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:33,880 right, but you've been doing this for a long time. 246 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:37,440 Tell us something about how you got into the identity space. 247 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:40,560 Was it something that you chose or did it choose you? 248 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:46,480 I feel like it chose me. I started off in app dev, you 249 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:49,960 know, doing all of the early Microsoft development 250 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:53,480 technologies. And even in my early years at at 251 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:59,400 GM, I was a application architect that I was my primary 252 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:04,680 responsibility and one of my early roles was an, an architect 253 00:13:04,680 --> 00:13:08,560 lead on the deployment of an, a, our employee portal, right? 254 00:13:08,560 --> 00:13:11,680 So this is a pretty massive undertaking, you know, hundreds 255 00:13:11,680 --> 00:13:15,520 of thousands employees. This is going to be the face of 256 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,720 of IT for our employee population, right? 257 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:22,480 And so there was a lot of effort that went into not only kind of 258 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:27,720 what was built around in the portal, but we also position 259 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:32,080 this portal to be in a way to access applications in 260 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:33,440 throughout the enterprise, right? 261 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:38,000 And so where most of the discussions ended up happening 262 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:42,440 was, well, how do we secure access to application A once 263 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:44,160 somebody logs into the portal, right? 264 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:49,400 And so that typically always involved LDAP directories, 265 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:55,880 access control list and all of those legacy ways of securing 266 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:58,200 things that we did back in the early 2000s. 267 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:04,000 And so I being involved in that so much, I ended up being on a 268 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:07,880 directory team, right? And so we were known as the LDAP 269 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:12,480 team and, and our big deal was to socialize SSO across the 270 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:15,240 enterprise, right? That was actually a thing in the 271 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:18,520 early days. And so that really kind of 272 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:23,000 kicked off my, my learnings around identity and I ended up 273 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:26,160 meeting, you know, all the luminaries that guys that have 274 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:29,040 been on this podcast previously. I mean, I remember we were 275 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:33,120 deploying a product called open SSO in the in the early years, 276 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:38,040 that was a sun product. And we had a trainer come in and 277 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:41,120 train us on, on how to deploy open SSO. 278 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:43,040 And that trainer was Alan Foster, right? 279 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:45,960 And that's, that's a guy that you guys had on not too long 280 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:48,080 ago. And, you know, those are 281 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:50,760 relationships that have endured over the past 20 years, right? 282 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:54,480 People, folks like Ian Glaser, somebody who's been on 100 times 283 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:59,920 on this podcast that have helped kind of guide me in terms of 284 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:04,000 being embraced in the community. And, and, and when things like 285 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:07,840 ID pro came along and there, you know, you guys promoted ID pro 286 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:12,240 and, and, and Jim's example is, is 100% accurate in terms of the 287 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:15,720 value. Because you know, it's typically 288 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:18,280 you don't have that kind of an engaged community to be able to 289 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:22,320 bring issues and topics to and be able to get that kind of rich 290 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:24,280 response, right. Typically, you know, out on the 291 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:26,600 Internet, you're just a dog, right? 292 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:32,720 So it, it's, it's really great to see how ID pro and the 293 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:35,560 community has grown in, in the years that since it's been 294 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:37,640 created. And you know, I've been 295 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:41,000 privileged to be part of it, privileged to be around this 296 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:42,960 community for so long because it's something that's it's 297 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:45,080 giving me a career, it's giving me a focus. 298 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:46,840 So you've been in this game for a while. 299 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:51,120 How many years do you or how many rings on the tree do you 300 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:53,480 want to claim as being an identity? 301 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:58,160 Yeah, 20 years this year actually. 302 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:01,160 So I don't know if there's any kind of celebration that I have 303 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:05,400 planned, but it's, it's really interesting to see how things 304 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:08,200 have evolved. Because when we were early on, 305 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:12,840 it was, you know, we were trying literally to go to other 306 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:17,240 organizations within GM just to get them to on board to our 307 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:19,280 enterprise LDAP environment, right? 308 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:21,680 Like we, we didn't even own Active Directory, right? 309 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:26,400 It was come to our enterprise LDAP environment and we can give 310 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:29,440 you single sign on, right? And then the amount of time that 311 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:33,880 went into debating things like password strength, it seems 312 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:36,520 silly now, right? We were, we're heading into 313 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:40,440 actually password list, right? We're, we're literally rolling 314 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:43,040 out password less capabilities today. 315 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:47,120 And so to think of how far we've come from a lot of the things 316 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:49,440 that started off that kind of was the foundation of the 317 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:52,720 identity and access management discipline. 318 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:54,920 You know, some things haven't changed as much as they need to. 319 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:59,120 I think IGA is somewhere that is, is kind of begging for some, 320 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:03,200 some innovation, I think, but there have been a lot of other 321 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:07,200 exciting areas. Customer identity is 1 area that 322 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:12,040 I've seen a lot of innovation and a lot of definition and then 323 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:13,880 that aspect of the market in recent years. 324 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:17,720 And so yeah, it, it's just, you know, 20 years in, still 325 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:19,480 passionate about it, still excited about it. 326 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:21,839 So we're we're really looking forward to it. 327 00:17:22,599 --> 00:17:25,200 Is there something that you kind of look back and say that was a 328 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:28,600 game changer or identity? Is it something like, it could 329 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:30,920 be something as simple, I don't know if it's simple, but hey, 330 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:34,000 we've got standards now, SAML, Open ID Connect or you know, 331 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:37,480 whatever before that, or maybe it was the advent of single sign 332 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:39,000 on. Is there something that you 333 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:40,200 might in your mind that like jumps out? 334 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:41,960 It's like, oh, like that's that's it. 335 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:46,080 I think what really kicked the things off was the adoption of 336 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:48,520 standards. I think things early on like the 337 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:52,120 adoption of SAML and eventually O auth and Open ID connect. 338 00:17:52,360 --> 00:17:55,960 Really, because that was, you know, most companies want to, 339 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:58,480 you know, align on that and then, you know, everyone 340 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:00,840 interacts with other companies in some way or another. 341 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:04,280 And that gave you a language, it gave you a protocol on how you 342 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:07,280 could allow external parties to come and authenticate to your 343 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:09,080 enterprise and give them access to things. 344 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:11,240 Right. And so we started really early 345 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:17,240 on in a partnership with Sun and Microsoft where we were evolving 346 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:20,160 the SAML standard early on. And then we just we promoted the 347 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:22,440 fact that we were part of the Liberty Alliance and then we 348 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:26,240 were, you know, promoting what, you know, making products from 349 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:29,640 Sun and Microsoft work. And this is in 2007, 2008, 350 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:31,920 right, where that kind of thing was relatively unheard of. 351 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:35,080 So, you know, those are things early on, I think the adoption 352 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:38,400 of standards and, and, and the fact that standards like SAML 353 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:41,240 and O auth and open ID connect have really endured, right? 354 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:43,800 And, and that's what's so exciting about things like pass 355 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:47,480 keys where, you know, that has gotten industry adoption at a 356 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:49,960 rate that that we haven't really seen before, right? 357 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,120 It seemed like it was probably a year or two where we started 358 00:18:53,120 --> 00:18:56,560 hearing about Pass keys to everyone is supporting it, all 359 00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:59,440 the big names are supporting it. And now you know, we're as 360 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:01,960 implementers, we're really trying to catch up to kind of 361 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:04,960 bring that feature set and to bring the all of the goodness of 362 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:08,080 what Pass keys are to our to our users and our customers. 363 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:12,040 So I know G miss, you know, obviously a very big company and 364 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:13,920 I've always been curious about this adoption of pass keys 365 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:15,840 because they feel like the groundwork was laid a couple 366 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:18,280 years ago. But just because it's like, hey, 367 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:21,040 we had this new thing. It takes time to adopt those 368 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:23,000 sorts of things and get them into plans, etcetera. 369 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:27,320 What was it that was like, OK, now is the time where GM is 370 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:30,160 looking at this and say, hey, let's do let's do passkeys. 371 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:33,960 What was the the key to that? A desire to get away from 372 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:37,040 passwords. Just an overall recognition. 373 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:40,480 We had adopted kind of 0 trust principles and practices 374 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:46,400 formally probably 3 years ago. And the desire to move the 375 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:50,080 authentication level to kind of raise the floor in terms of 376 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:53,280 authentication levels that we would be willing to accept to do 377 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:56,000 things like privilege operations is really, kind of really what 378 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:59,760 kick things off and be perfectly honest. 379 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:02,680 Pass keys prevents a user experience benefit that we 380 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:05,120 really haven't seen to this point, right? 381 00:20:05,120 --> 00:20:09,000 So you're being able to move away from passwords to kind of 382 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:12,480 increase that? That base level of security when 383 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:15,600 we're accessing things within the enterprise and you make 384 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:19,240 everybody happy by not having to enter passwords, not having to 385 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:26,680 do, you know, less secure MFA steps as a second action to get 386 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:31,080 access to things really ends up being pretty much a, a, a win 387 00:20:31,120 --> 00:20:33,440 overall. There's there's effort to get 388 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:37,160 there and there's a lot of kind of turning of the battleship 389 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:39,920 when you're dealing with enterprises of our size in order 390 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:45,880 to not only get users configured and set up correctly so they can 391 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:49,240 take advantage of the stronger authentication methods. 392 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:53,200 But there's a, there's a lot of cross boarding of applications 393 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:55,640 in a lot of situations to make sure that they're leveraging 394 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:59,400 modern authentication in order to take advantage of the single 395 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:02,680 sign on that comes with leveraging modern auth in the 396 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:07,080 cloud and things like that. So it's, it's not a turning of a 397 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:08,920 switch and just make everybody work. 398 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:13,960 There's a lot of internal, you know, collaboration that happens 399 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:17,400 across a whole lot of teams to be able to bring an enterprise 400 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:19,640 of our size, to be able to take advantage of password as 401 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:22,800 technologies. And it never moves as fast as, 402 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:25,640 you know, we in the identity space want it to move, right? 403 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:27,080 There's all. But this is the reality of 404 00:21:27,360 --> 00:21:29,480 especially a larger enterprise where like you said, you know, 405 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:30,840 turning the battleship takes time, right? 406 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:33,360 Where or if you want to use a training or whatever analogy, 407 00:21:33,360 --> 00:21:36,160 you're right of a big thing that needs to shift direction or 408 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:38,720 speed. It does take a lot of time and a 409 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:40,840 lot of planning too, because you're, you're dealing with, you 410 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:44,120 know, not just the technical aspect of it, but the change 411 00:21:44,120 --> 00:21:46,560 management aspect of it from a business process perspective, 412 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:48,840 which can make or break how successful something like that 413 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:51,240 might be, right? No, and you have to prepare to 414 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:53,920 over communicate. You have to prepare to make sure 415 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,360 that you give all of the guidance necessary. 416 00:21:56,360 --> 00:21:59,600 So you know, are you going to be force feeding some of these 417 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:02,360 changes or are you going to make them self-service, right? 418 00:22:02,360 --> 00:22:04,800 Are you going to encourage people to go in and set up their 419 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:06,680 account to take advantage of password lists? 420 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,120 Those are decisions that have to be made pretty early on. 421 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:13,200 And over communicate is my highest recommendation. 422 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,000 And everything that we've done is that you don't want to make 423 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:19,320 people have to pick up a phone or call somebody or, or, you 424 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:21,440 know, fire up a, a slack session. 425 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,360 You want to make sure that they have all the information 426 00:22:24,360 --> 00:22:27,400 available to them to be able to, to make the decisions needed to 427 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,080 get switched when they have to. And so, you know, the lessons 428 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:33,640 are learned, right? You, you on our side of it as 429 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,400 implementers, we're, we want to rush these changes in and say, 430 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:40,320 Hey, we won, we did it. And it's not quite that simple 431 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:45,200 in our size and scale. It's never that simple and it's 432 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:49,080 never right quick, right? And so it's a process, the 433 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:51,560 change management like you said is a huge aspect of it. 434 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:57,480 And yeah, I mean, we, we started we're, we're probably over a 435 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,840 year in to transitioning the, the enterprise completely. 436 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:06,160 And it involves users, apps, devices, data. 437 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:09,760 It's it's a full, full level transition. 438 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:13,640 I know there's so much we want to get to, but I got to ask what 439 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:17,280 is like been the common question maybe that you've gotten from 440 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:21,000 end users about this whole pass key, you know, password list 441 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:22,520 type of approach. Is there something that is out 442 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:23,360 there? Because I'm sure people out 443 00:23:23,360 --> 00:23:24,840 there listening, it's like, all right, what should I be thinking 444 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:26,800 about from a deployment standpoint for this? 445 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:28,920 But has there been anything common that you've noticed? 446 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:32,560 Not, not quite yet. I think that the biggest 447 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:36,560 adoption that is still surprisingly that it's so much 448 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:41,120 of an adoption challenge is, you know, and typically in, in 449 00:23:41,120 --> 00:23:44,280 enterprise platforms, there's the authenticator app, there's 450 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:49,880 the ability to use some password less mechanism to confirm an 451 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,480 authentication flow. And those are things that 452 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:54,440 people, you know, they typically think they wouldn't, they're 453 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:57,400 already either using their own, they want to bring in and use 454 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:03,280 or, you know, they're suspect about using it on a personal 455 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:04,600 device. And those are things that we 456 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,560 have to kind of coax through through policy and then making 457 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:10,080 sure that they're aware that there's no, no personal 458 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:12,400 information involved in, on those devices that you're 459 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:16,160 tapping a, a push notification is, is there's no private 460 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:18,160 information that goes that gets involved in that. 461 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:20,840 So those are kind of the main questions that we get when we 462 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,160 transition a lot of our activity to use in things like an 463 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,840 authenticator app. But the user experience benefits 464 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:29,560 are pretty significant. So they usually, once they get 465 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:32,760 used to that in their flow, they literally forget their password, 466 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:34,280 right? They literally haven't used it 467 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,720 in so long that they end up when, when they actually ever 468 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:39,800 get something that requires and they enter a password, they 469 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:41,360 forget it and have to end up resetting it. 470 00:24:41,360 --> 00:24:44,200 So that's a good thing. And then and hopefully we'll get 471 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:45,360 to the point where they'll never need it. 472 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:47,720 Yeah, well, just write it down and just stick it on your 473 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:48,280 keyboard. That's the. 474 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:52,800 Same thing. So much work to get away from 475 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:54,640 that. But yeah, those were the days. 476 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:57,560 I introduced you as a technical fellow. 477 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:01,600 I don't think we've ever had a technical fellow on our show 478 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:03,840 before. What the heck does that even 479 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:04,640 mean? And was it? 480 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:06,880 What is the day-to-day like for a technical fellow? 481 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:11,840 Yeah. So I, when I complete like, like 482 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:15,240 when I sign up for a webinar and it'll ask for my title, I just 483 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:21,160 put identity guy because in, in my role and it is, it's pretty 484 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:25,040 much a, a technical specialist at an enterprise level. 485 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,680 And it kind of recognizes that I've been doing it for a while. 486 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:34,280 And so my role is, is pretty much to guide all things related 487 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:38,080 to implementing identity and access management technology, 488 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:39,440 right. And so whether it's on the 489 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:44,480 enterprise side, whether it's on the customer identity side, all 490 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,720 of the projects that we run throughout the enterprise, I'm 491 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:51,280 responsible for making sure that there is a level of quality in. 492 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,400 And then every integration point is, is doing what it should be 493 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,520 in that we're meeting the needs of our business stakeholders, 494 00:25:57,520 --> 00:25:59,960 right? Those are things that typically, 495 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:02,920 you know, my whole engagement in getting into customer and ID and 496 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:06,080 access management started with a, a phone call. 497 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,400 It was like, hey, what do you guys know about customer 498 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:10,400 identity, right? Because they knew that we were, 499 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:13,200 at the time we were, we were primarily responsible for 500 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,560 enterprise identity, workforce identity. 501 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:19,600 And we really didn't own that part of the environment. 502 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:23,640 And it was a single phone call that got me involved to say, 503 00:26:24,360 --> 00:26:25,720 let's see where we can help here. 504 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,840 And ended up with suggesting a product, implementing the 505 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:32,800 product and getting it deployed. And you know, there were by the 506 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:34,680 time we actually got it deployed, there were hundreds of 507 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,600 people involved. You know, 456 organizations 508 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,760 across the enterprise were involved in it ended up being a 509 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,880 really big deal and we actually did it over COVID while we were 510 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,000 actually realizing they were about to be shut down through 511 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,680 COVID as when when this deployment actually happened so 512 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:51,720 and. You're going to be at 513 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,120 Ideniverse, right? So I think we're going to be 514 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,040 maybe even on the same panel. I think our friend Sean is 515 00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:59,880 putting something together. But give us a preview of what to 516 00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:03,680 expect at ideniverse. So Sean and I are putting 517 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:05,800 together a continuous identity workshop. 518 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,640 So we're really excited to really get into some of the 519 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,640 futures of kind of where we think identity is headed. 520 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:15,360 And so there's a lot of activity and you guys were at the most 521 00:27:15,360 --> 00:27:18,280 recent Gardner conference and I authenticate as well where 522 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:23,120 there's a, there was a, an interrupt that they hosted that 523 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:26,640 brought a lot of companies together who are supporting Cape 524 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,040 and the shared signals framework specification. 525 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:35,640 And there's just a lot of real benefit when it comes to being 526 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:39,200 able to be completely dynamic in terms of how we apply policy 527 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,080 around access control and being able to integrate multiple 528 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:46,200 security products is, is really a huge benefit over taking 529 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,600 advantage of the shared signals framework. 530 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,280 And so we're going to host a workshop that kind of gets folks 531 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:55,360 immersed in, in what's involved to be able to take advantage of 532 00:27:55,360 --> 00:27:59,360 that. And so that's I, you know, I, he 533 00:27:59,360 --> 00:28:01,040 didn't bring me along kicking and screaming. 534 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:02,800 You know, Sean is so excited about it. 535 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,200 You can't, you can't deny his enthusiasm around this topic. 536 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:07,560 So I'll just come along for the ride. 537 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,440 You know, Andrew, I figure with the technical fellow, it would 538 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:14,280 be like, who's who's this Andrew Cameron again? 539 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:17,120 Oh, he's the technical fellow down the down the hall there. 540 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,920 I hear that that's a, that's a piece of comedy gets thrown my 541 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,240 way once in a while. But yeah, yeah, I just, it's 542 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,160 easier to just talk about it as I'm the guy, I'm the identity 543 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:28,760 guy at GM. If there's something going on 544 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,360 with identity and access management at GM, probably I'm 545 00:28:31,360 --> 00:28:33,480 aware of it. I'm definitely interested in 546 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,160 this customer. I am topic because I imagine 547 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:41,440 you've got a ton of complexity and I could probably, you know, 548 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:45,240 talk to your ear off for an hour or ask you question or all day 549 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:48,600 and ask you questions. So I picked a few that I think 550 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:50,360 that you can probably really speak to. 551 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:56,400 I would imagine that you guys have a pretty wide mix of legacy 552 00:28:56,400 --> 00:29:00,320 systems, modern systems and everything in between. 553 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:04,800 And that changes over time, like the mix of technologies that 554 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:06,640 you're carrying on. You probably still have some 555 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,120 mainframes, to be honest. Sure, maybe not. 556 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:12,400 OK, not a not a shame to say that we do, yes. 557 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:20,080 And that makes it tougher to get an identity solution that works 558 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:24,480 for everything, right? Yeah, Yeah, we when we initially 559 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,600 kind of rolled out our customer identity strategy there are our 560 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:32,320 biggest goal was to, you know, own the the features and 561 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:36,360 functions that were most important for authenticating the 562 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:38,840 customer, right. And so that meant standing up an 563 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:42,360 identity platform that was able to perform at scale for, you 564 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:44,120 know, our 10s of millions of customers. 565 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:49,640 And that also included things like taking profile management 566 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:51,720 out of the hands of their applications, right? 567 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,280 And providing a service that allowed our application teams to 568 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:58,560 say, let's give can we look up the profile information for this 569 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:02,000 customer and not have to replicate profile information 570 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,360 across application environments. Those are some of the, you know, 571 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:08,360 simple goals, but it was important to establish that is 572 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:12,520 it as part of our platform to be able to allow it to scale and to 573 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,320 be able to allow other applications to come on board 574 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:17,880 and they don't have to worry about how does authentication 575 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:18,880 work? As long as you're able to 576 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:23,200 support a core standards Open ID Connect Oauth, you know your 577 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,200 your application can plug into our environment and we can get 578 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:29,840 you your customer authenticated and we get profile information 579 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:32,320 available for the customer and that's for everyone who plugs 580 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:34,760 into our platform. Yeah, and and something like 581 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:37,160 profile information, it sounds so simple, right? 582 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,760 We're just come on, applications don't keep the profile 583 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,760 information and then it's like, OK, well, what is central 584 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:48,760 profile information? Is shipping address centralized, 585 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:53,760 centralizable or does it matter what application they're using? 586 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:58,000 So there's that technical complexity and there's also the 587 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:02,400 complexity of do I want to give this up out of my application 588 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:07,680 and you know, and done there. Was a lot of that there's a lot 589 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:09,160 a lot of angst around that as well. 590 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,080 Yeah, it was you know, we wait you're going to you're going to 591 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,160 remove these key customer attributes out of our 592 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:17,240 application and put them somewhere essentially or what do 593 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:18,720 we want to allow them to change it? 594 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:21,880 Well, the customer go to one location where they manage 595 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,480 profile and they can make that change there, right. 596 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,360 And so those are well the concepts there early on that 597 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:33,160 didn't didn't sell immediately, but that the benefits from my 598 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:37,040 overall enterprise and platforms perspective were really kind of 599 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:41,400 key to kind of getting that accelerated once we got it stood 600 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,400 up. Everyone sees the value of it 601 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:47,240 two years after it's implemented and they forget how hard it was 602 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:49,240 to get there. But it takes somebody like 603 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:51,520 yourself. I don't care. 604 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:53,040 Don't miss an opportunity to remind them. 605 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,360 I don't know. I know. 606 00:31:56,360 --> 00:32:00,600 I mean, that to me though is like a big deal, like getting 607 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:04,520 profile centralizes is different than just doing single sign on. 608 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:11,000 And it's now you're starting to dig into what is built into each 609 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:15,000 and every application, which is this picture of an identity. 610 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:20,040 Whereas, you know, let's take something like privacy 611 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:22,200 information or communication preferences. 612 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,400 You know, I don't want to receive a newsletter. 613 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,440 So say I go into one application, I turned off 614 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,520 newsletter and I keep getting newsletters because all the 615 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:34,840 other applications I didn't go and turn it off in my profile 616 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,720 there, right. The the customer experience 617 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:41,920 right there would be garbage. But if you can get all the 618 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:45,600 applications to see that and save the better for the better. 619 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:49,600 Good. It's let's centralized that now 620 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:52,480 you not, but it takes somebody like yourself caring. 621 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,240 And when I hear like, you know, I I've worked for large 622 00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:58,920 companies and you know, I've done a lot of the CIM stuff and 623 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:05,360 you know, lasting somewhere 20 years, you go through you have 624 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:07,440 to you have to have a little bit of a tough skin. 625 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,760 And then I'm also sure, Andrew, that you're in the role that 626 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:14,240 you're mentoring people and encouraging them that like, 627 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,120 look, sometimes you have to go through the grind and you're 628 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,720 going to hit some lows. You ought to be able to bounce 629 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:21,520 off those lows. Can you talk about that a little 630 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:23,960 bit? Yeah, I mean, there's, there's 631 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:28,840 probably 1001 stories. I mean, there's a lot of, you 632 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:32,160 know, you want to make sure that you're, you, you prove the 633 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,520 desire to want to collaborate with people, right? 634 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:38,440 You, you don't want to come in with AI know I'm right and 635 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:40,960 you're wrong and this is how it's going to go. 636 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:45,320 So being able to listen is always been really key, right? 637 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:49,280 To be able to provide some feedback to people that is, is 638 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,880 not deprecating or demeaning in any way has been something that 639 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:57,760 has worked for me, right? And it GM culture in, in the 640 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:01,720 2000 or in the early 2000s was very different than how it is 641 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:05,000 now. And I was fortunate to be around 642 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:09,199 leaders who, who didn't necessarily believe we needed to 643 00:34:09,199 --> 00:34:13,520 rule with a, an iron fist to be able to get things productive in 644 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,480 an enterprise environment the size of GM and solo. 645 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:20,760 That's kind of what has allowed me to kind of lead in that way, 646 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:22,880 right? I'm, I, I don't lead large team. 647 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:26,239 I don't manage large teams as a individual contributor. 648 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:30,840 I, I'm more focused on leading by example, by the example that 649 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:32,920 I set. And so I, I don't get into 650 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:35,679 trying to make sure that people know that I'm right. 651 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:39,000 Consensus building is still something that is valuable and 652 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:40,400 it makes people feel like they're included. 653 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:42,040 And so that's something I've always tried to follow. 654 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:46,840 Yeah, I really love that, you know, So again, I have to kind 655 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:50,480 of pick my topics because they could bend your ear all day. 656 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,760 But the last thing I wanted to talk about was I can imagine 657 00:34:55,760 --> 00:35:00,280 that you have a very, let's just call it complex, for lack of a 658 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:04,240 better term, complex B to B environment where you've got 659 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:11,280 obviously suppliers, you've got dealerships, you've got a global 660 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,800 dealership network. You know, you've got to supply 661 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:18,400 those dealers with the ability to order new cars. 662 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,920 You know, maybe you have also beyond dealers, you have like 663 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:28,320 national accounts, like maybe a Hertz or a national, you know, 664 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:31,760 car rental kind of company where they buy thousands of cars. 665 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,680 Well, they're not maybe going to buy them from a dealer, but 666 00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:37,240 there's all those complexities within. 667 00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:39,480 But one of the things that I think from an identity 668 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:42,400 standpoint, that becomes the hardest to manage and all that 669 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:47,800 is delegated administration. You know, so that you don't have 670 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,800 to have like your help desk having phone calls come in like, 671 00:35:51,240 --> 00:35:55,160 you know, from a dealer in Toledo saying, hey, we just 672 00:35:55,160 --> 00:36:01,160 hired Nancy and she needs to have access to XY and Z systems 673 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:03,840 and all that. Somebody in that Toledo 674 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:07,000 dealership can go ahead and set up Nancy and then when Nancy no 675 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:09,880 longer works there, take away her access. 676 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:12,960 But that's one of the hardest things to solve. 677 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,440 I think they talk about that a little bit. 678 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:20,880 No, it is probably one of the hardest in workforce identity. 679 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:23,760 It's one of the hardest aspects to manage. 680 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:27,200 And just think about even what you see in the industry, you 681 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:30,040 don't even see that many products out there that are 682 00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:32,240 targeted towards external user management, right? 683 00:36:32,240 --> 00:36:38,040 You, you know, the IGA tools can do it to some degree, but it, 684 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:41,480 it's everyone's enterprise is so different that you really have 685 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:46,480 to put in some effort into, you know, what you described was 686 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:51,440 kind of the base level use case where yes, every organization, 687 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:55,720 every dealership, every supplier company has a security 688 00:36:55,720 --> 00:36:58,600 coordinator, a someone responsible for onboarding their 689 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,720 users. But as you might guess, they're, 690 00:37:01,720 --> 00:37:04,880 they're not exactly diligent in removing their access when 691 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:07,920 they're supposed to, right? And, and how do we handle that, 692 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:09,600 right? And, and how do we work with 693 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:11,880 those organizations when they have breaches in their 694 00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:13,880 environment, when they have security issues, right? 695 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,040 All the things that we have a, we have a dedicated security 696 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:22,480 organization in our, in our IT organization that focuses on 3rd 697 00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:26,120 party security, right? And making sure that our 698 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:31,600 partners that we work with maintain a minimal level of, of 699 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:35,400 risk in their environment. And we have a, you know, some 700 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:38,880 very important requirements or any partner that we interact 701 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:41,840 with to allow them to access GM systems. 702 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:44,880 And so those are things that when you start dealing with, you 703 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,440 know, we have 10,000 dealerships globally. 704 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:52,480 We have hundreds of, we have a supplier network that's multiple 705 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,160 tiers where we have suppliers that manage suppliers that 706 00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:58,840 manage suppliers. And so it's very, very complex. 707 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:02,520 We have entirely dedicated infrastructures to to not only 708 00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:06,480 make the delegated admin piece happen, but I would even say 709 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:11,960 that there's AB to B to C segment that comes in that is 710 00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:16,000 doesn't fall into being managed in our with our workforce 711 00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:18,840 identity infrastructure. But they're not exactly 712 00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:21,640 customers, right? They fit into this little 713 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:24,240 example that you brought up. The rental car companies that we 714 00:38:24,240 --> 00:38:28,920 deal with probably fall into that space where they, they have 715 00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:32,400 a need to be able to do things like self-service registration, 716 00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:36,360 sign up and get an account to have access to certain systems. 717 00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:39,280 And they don't need to have access to all of our enterprise 718 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:42,000 systems, but there's a certain segment of systems that they can 719 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:46,640 get access to in a self-service manner that we manage that that 720 00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:50,080 they have a need for as well. And so that's a another segment 721 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:53,000 of our external user population that we've, you know, had to 722 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:56,040 manage and create additional solutions for in that matter. 723 00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:03,200 I've got to imagine that the the global aspect of what you do is 724 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,120 probably been around like the entire time that you've been 725 00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:09,880 involved. But that brings on the whole 726 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:14,400 language issue. How many languages do you need 727 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:16,400 to support? And I'm going to ask the 728 00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:19,680 question this way. What is what is the the harder 729 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:23,560 thing to manage is that the languages or the different 730 00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:26,880 privacy laws that exist throughout the world. 731 00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:29,680 Wow. That's a great question. 732 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,960 I'd say that the complexity of privacy laws has been something 733 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:38,840 that in recent years has really started to, to get attention, 734 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:43,040 right, Because, you know, the fines in, in, in these regions 735 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:46,040 are starting to get significant. So you don't want to get that 736 00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:49,080 wrong, right? And so especially when it comes 737 00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:56,160 to EU and, and how we handle location of personal data in 738 00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:57,920 those regions, it's really important. 739 00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:02,520 And so, yeah, it, it's being able and, and actually being 740 00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:05,920 required to build solutions to allow our customers to do things 741 00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:08,320 like right, to remove and things like that. 742 00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:11,080 They've been. Part of what we do in recent 743 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:13,800 years, and so I'd say that's been the biggest challenge, 744 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:18,160 right, Being able to respond to the varying demands of privacy 745 00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:21,080 globally for an enterprise of our size has been something 746 00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:26,480 that's really, really important. It's a struggle for everybody, I 747 00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:28,680 think, trying to this all together, but I think it 748 00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:32,320 underlines and sort of underscores the value that I am 749 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:34,960 comes in maintaining compliance with a lot of this stuff. 750 00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:39,640 If you're doing good, I am stuff generally speaking, you're going 751 00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:42,360 to be that further ahead when it comes to compliance with 752 00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:43,680 regulations. At least that's that's my 753 00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:45,480 thought. Does that make sense or do you 754 00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:47,040 disagree? It makes perfect sense. 755 00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:51,000 So if you're doing things like not making multiple copies of 756 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:53,960 customer profile information everywhere, then when it's 757 00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:55,280 going. To sync it, it's fine. 758 00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:57,640 Yeah, yeah. See, that's the and that and 759 00:40:57,640 --> 00:40:59,640 that where, you know, that's where it sells itself, right? 760 00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:03,400 Where you don't have to, to be worried about how many copies 761 00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:06,040 of, of, of databases that have been, you know, thrown around 762 00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:08,800 the enterprise. That being able to satisfy 763 00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:12,360 private privacy requirements gets a a bit easier at least. 764 00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:14,960 And it's not as complex as it could be, right? 765 00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:18,240 And so, yeah, now those are, those are things because that's 766 00:41:18,240 --> 00:41:19,680 real money, right? That's real. 767 00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:24,800 That's real cost that can get hit if you're not on top of, of 768 00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:26,920 all of the requirements. If you're not, if your solutions 769 00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:30,120 don't don't meet those requirements right, you can get 770 00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:33,800 a lot of trouble really quick. I'd like to take the 771 00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:35,600 conversation more to the consumer side. 772 00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:38,040 I feel like a lot of people listening probably have a 773 00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:39,400 vehicle. And one of the things that I've 774 00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:43,200 noticed over the last several years is the rise of what I'll 775 00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:46,320 call like a, a car account, right? 776 00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:49,480 Whatever the manufacturer is, you know, GM is one of them. 777 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:53,640 But Volvo, Tesla, Rivian, right, all you name it, tend to have an 778 00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:57,840 app and vehicles are moving now into almost like this cell phone 779 00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:01,280 on wheels type of thing, right? Software defined vehicles, 780 00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:03,400 etcetera. Can you talk a little bit about 781 00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:05,440 how that works from an identity standpoint? 782 00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:08,760 Like what are the benefits of you know, having AGM account or 783 00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:10,720 maybe in, in the case of GMA, if it's a brand account, right, 784 00:42:10,720 --> 00:42:13,200 whether it's Chevrolet or Cadillac or whatever it may be. 785 00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:17,920 It's probably the most exciting part of what I would say, 786 00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:21,760 although the customer identity space is the impact that we have 787 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:26,880 on the user experience in that way, in that everything that the 788 00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:31,800 customer sees starts with what you do when you access your 789 00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:33,240 product, right. And that's usually, you know, 790 00:42:33,240 --> 00:42:37,800 when you when as excited as you are, when you buy a vehicle out 791 00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,840 of the and you take it out of the dealership, the first thing 792 00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:44,080 you do is you log into whatever that mobile app is and check out 793 00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:46,000 all of the features that you can do through the mobile app, 794 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:49,240 right? And so it's really exciting that 795 00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:53,600 we have been able to impact, you know, the overall vehicle 796 00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:57,880 experience in that way and then be able to have, you know, not 797 00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:01,560 multiple accounts from that, multiple logins when it comes to 798 00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:04,400 kind of taking advantage of those experiences because, you 799 00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:09,480 know, we're bringing more and more services into the vehicle 800 00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:11,960 experience, right? So, you know, you're driving 801 00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:15,200 along the road and you and, and you come across Starbucks, 802 00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:16,600 right? You can, you can order your 803 00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:18,920 Starbucks ahead of time and, and, and not do it through, you 804 00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:20,200 know, not do it through your mobile app. 805 00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:22,760 Those are things that are you can actually do through a head 806 00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:25,040 unit. And so it's important to be able 807 00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:29,320 to make the experience as seamless as possible and to 808 00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:31,440 bring a single identity into that experience. 809 00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:35,880 And so it should be as something as simple as here's an e-mail 810 00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:40,240 address and I sign up for an app and I can be secure in accessing 811 00:43:40,240 --> 00:43:43,160 my vehicle features. And that's, that's a, that's a 812 00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:45,200 destination, right? And there's a, there's a lot of 813 00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:47,280 ways. And that's why kind of focusing 814 00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:51,120 on a single identity is so important because you don't want 815 00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:56,200 to, to add friction to the user experience by, you know, forcing 816 00:43:56,200 --> 00:44:00,400 them to poke in a password on the on the vehicle display, 817 00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:02,200 right? That's not, that's not the best 818 00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:05,480 way to go about that, right? So those are things that we've 819 00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:08,800 been working really hard to make sure that we bring that best 820 00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:11,000 experience to the vehicle, vehicle customer. 821 00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:16,160 I feel like this is an area that is still ripe for conquest by 822 00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:20,000 audio manufacturer where you can personalize the vehicle. 823 00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:22,440 There's so much telemetry and so many things that you can now 824 00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:25,440 control in the vehicle through an app or AP is right through 825 00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:26,840 the app. And those sorts of things where 826 00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:31,640 you know, if, if you're carrying your phone, for example, and you 827 00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:34,160 know, you're using maybe an ultra wide band for your, your 828 00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:36,120 mobile key, right? Or or some other Bluetooth 829 00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:38,880 proximity, whatever. Maybe in in some scenarios it 830 00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:40,640 knows that Jeff is getting in the car. 831 00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:42,560 So let me set the seat position to this. 832 00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:46,840 Let me log into, you know, my Spotify account or Apple Music 833 00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:51,880 or whatever it may be, right? Set Google Maps and my direction 834 00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:53,320 based on a calendar entry, right? 835 00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:56,240 There's a lot of neat things that can happen, but you can't 836 00:44:56,240 --> 00:44:59,480 do that without the identity layer actually pulling that 837 00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:02,360 together, or this is an opportunity to connect those 838 00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:05,160 experiences. Yeah, or delegate privileges to 839 00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:08,880 do things in the vehicle to your kids, right, To be able to, you 840 00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:13,080 know, work the work the display in the rear of the car to 841 00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:15,400 whatever they want to do and be able to have their preferences 842 00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:18,000 saved to a family set of preferences. 843 00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:20,040 All the things that are also part of the picture, right? 844 00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:23,120 And those are all huge, right? Those are those are selling 845 00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:24,640 points, right. When you're able to provide 846 00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:28,520 those that kind of granularity of features within the vehicle 847 00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:30,240 experience. So yeah, I mean, that's, that's 848 00:45:30,240 --> 00:45:31,960 what's exciting about it, right? And that's it. 849 00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:36,440 It's really exciting to be able to see, not only to be able to 850 00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:39,840 enable those cool things, but from our perspective, we're 851 00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:42,440 trying to keep it secure, right? And so we're trying to, and I 852 00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:47,680 know you guys bring, you've had Andrew Shikiar on several times 853 00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:52,400 and I know that Fido has created an automotive working group 854 00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:55,160 that's pretty exciting. And I can't announce anything, 855 00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:57,480 but I'm just keep in mind that we're looking at it, we're aware 856 00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:00,920 of it and, and, and we're excited to see how that 857 00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:03,640 progresses. I feel like this is an area that 858 00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:06,960 a lot of people struggle with, not people meaning auto, auto 859 00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:09,600 manufacturers, when it comes to really nailing that app 860 00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:12,480 experience. I promised before we hit record 861 00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:16,240 that I would not get on my soapbox about the experience 862 00:46:16,240 --> 00:46:18,800 that I've had with one of my recent vehicles and the let's 863 00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:23,520 just still call it not barely passable grade that I would give 864 00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:27,240 it from an experience. Why is it so hard to get that 865 00:46:27,240 --> 00:46:28,800 right? Is that are there? 866 00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:31,360 And you know, this is probably more of an app development 867 00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:33,680 question, but are there technical underpinnings from an 868 00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:38,320 identity perspective that make developing an app like that have 869 00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:41,520 those capabilities more difficult or thought process? 870 00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:43,800 Or is this like, hey, we've got the identity side, but there's 871 00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:46,920 still more work to do on maybe API management or other 872 00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:49,320 telemetry, you know, items that might be coming from the 873 00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:52,240 vehicle? Yeah, huge aspect in terms of 874 00:46:52,240 --> 00:46:56,600 security to be able to have a consistent set of security 875 00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:59,040 controls that are end to end, right. 876 00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:04,640 So that you know, not only are you doing things like MFA and 877 00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:07,920 securing the account experience when the customer logs in, but 878 00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:11,360 to be able to maintain that context all the way back into 879 00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:16,000 back end systems. And so it is important down to 880 00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:19,760 the developer level to be able to understand the differences of 881 00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:25,360 experience when you are showing a webview versus a native app 882 00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:29,880 experience and the differences of how that is perceived by the 883 00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:32,840 customer. Those I, I can't tell you the 884 00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:37,160 level of discussion that I have been involved in when it comes 885 00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:41,440 to making decisions around showing a, in a mobile app, 886 00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:43,920 whether you're showing something as simple as a webview versus a 887 00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:46,960 native screen. And, and, and how people get 888 00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:51,240 very passionate about what's, what's, what's best versus 889 00:47:51,240 --> 00:47:54,680 what's most secure, right. And so the standards do have a 890 00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:57,680 play in that. And, and as standards evolve and 891 00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:00,720 as products evolve to be able to support those better 892 00:48:00,720 --> 00:48:04,720 experiences, that's great. And I think Oauth and I think 893 00:48:04,720 --> 00:48:08,440 what's been exciting is kind of the version of Oauth that has 894 00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:14,840 near approval, the 2.1 version of Autumn is coming out that's 895 00:48:15,240 --> 00:48:18,360 addressing some of that actually keeping things more secure, but 896 00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:21,720 it's allowing more to be bring more native experiences to our 897 00:48:21,720 --> 00:48:23,280 customers. And so that's something that's 898 00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:30,280 it's a help overall, but it's, it's huge to be able to make 899 00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:33,880 sure that there's consistency across the experiences in the, 900 00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:38,520 and not only from just the app itself, but to how interactions 901 00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:43,200 get into your back office. And so things like WAFF and API 902 00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:48,120 gateways and you know, all of that plays a role when it comes 903 00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:53,520 to the customer, you know, authenticating, doing MFA and 904 00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:55,800 doing something as simple as hitting the button to start 905 00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:59,760 their vehicle that there's, there's an awful lot of 906 00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:02,640 interaction that happens. Attempt to secure that from end 907 00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:05,160 to end. I feel like this is an area that 908 00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:10,520 maybe people aren't as aware of is the speed of all this needs 909 00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:14,200 to be like sub millisecond because you just, you just 910 00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:16,040 listed a whole bunch of like speed bumps, right? 911 00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:19,440 The laugh and API bouncing back and forth, micro services, 912 00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:22,200 etcetera. Every second that when you hit 913 00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:24,680 that button on the app to say, start my vehicle, unlock my 914 00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:27,800 door, call for help, right? Whatever it may be. 915 00:49:28,240 --> 00:49:31,120 That is all mission critical things where you cannot have 916 00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:33,560 identity be the slowest link in the chain. 917 00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:37,960 How do you tackle speed when it comes to make it secure but make 918 00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:40,920 it fast? Yeah, that's, that's part of the 919 00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:43,680 process of bringing things to production to make sure that you 920 00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:48,800 have the, the, the performance, the response, the, the, the, the 921 00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:53,160 least latency involved when making. 922 00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:56,760 So there's in all of the best practices that need to be 923 00:49:56,760 --> 00:50:00,520 brought to bear when it comes to edge computing, right, to be 924 00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:05,480 able to make calls to an API services layer that can respond 925 00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:09,200 and, and recognize that a a user is authenticated and have 926 00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:12,600 authenticated with MFA and that we can process this request 927 00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:15,760 versus yeah, this doesn't look right. 928 00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:18,720 Let's reject the request, let's cancel this session because 929 00:50:18,720 --> 00:50:20,840 they've been compromised, right? We get a threat signal that says 930 00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:22,640 that the user may be compromised, right. 931 00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:25,720 So those are things that have to be taken into account. 932 00:50:25,720 --> 00:50:31,640 But yeah, at our scale and, and to be able to have a response 933 00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:33,920 time when you start your vehicle of a couple of seconds is, is 934 00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:37,880 something that is AI think it's the highest level of, of 935 00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:41,040 distributed system engineering at our level that to be able to 936 00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:43,480 get that done. And it's, there's a lot 937 00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:45,120 involved, like you just said, there's, there's so many 938 00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:49,080 systems, so many interactions that happen that the customer 939 00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:52,520 never sees, right. But that we have to get involved 940 00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:55,680 with to make sure there's policies, they get touched, they 941 00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:58,400 get triggered so many points along the way. 942 00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:01,120 And that's what it's fun. That's what's made the whole 943 00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:02,920 journey of the fun, to be able to get into all of that. 944 00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:06,680 I was going to say it's you sound like you're having fun 945 00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:08,560 with it. It's getting more and more fun 946 00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:12,880 as time goes on. You know, in addition to kind of 947 00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:15,040 the speed bumps that Jeff mentioned, and I think he was 948 00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:17,400 right on with that. The thought that I was having 949 00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:20,680 the whole time was, you know, you got to remember it's a car, 950 00:51:21,240 --> 00:51:22,360 there's all these things going on. 951 00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:24,800 It's got to be able to stop when it gets to that red light. 952 00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:29,200 And if it's got to send an API and like, you know, it gets to 953 00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:34,000 the point where the technology can compromise safety 954 00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:38,080 especially, that would not fly. Those are just some background 955 00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:39,360 thoughts. So I'm not asking you to react 956 00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:41,280 to that because that's kind of obvious, right? 957 00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:45,800 But you did bring up something about standards and I would 958 00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:49,800 think, you know, one of the hurdles would be that this is an 959 00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:53,400 area when it comes to technology in the cars that's going to be a 960 00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:57,160 real differentiator between car one and car 2. 961 00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:02,360 But the security piece of setting standards for security, 962 00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:08,800 to me, everybody's a long term winner if there is some 963 00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:11,280 standards work that's done together. 964 00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:15,440 So is that your perspective that you bring when you're working 965 00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:20,400 with a group like Fido in terms of, you know, moving forward 966 00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:22,840 this this working group? And I know you didn't have an 967 00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:24,960 announcement, but I just wanted to know if that was your 968 00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:26,840 perspective. Yeah. 969 00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:31,160 So absolutely the the answer is yes, that when you consider that 970 00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:35,080 you know, as consumer technologies take off, so things 971 00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:38,800 like pass keys that people are adopting that their technology 972 00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:43,240 platforms are adopting, right? You would think that they would 973 00:52:43,240 --> 00:52:46,960 be customers would be wet ready and willing to leverage those 974 00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:49,320 technologies with their in vehicle experiences, right. 975 00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:52,920 So using pass keys for payments might be something that people 976 00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:56,800 are interested in, right. And so to have those and to see 977 00:52:56,800 --> 00:53:01,920 the industry adoption at this point is an indicator that the 978 00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:05,400 customers would like to be able to continue to use these kind of 979 00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:06,800 features as they're made available. 980 00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:13,320 So, yeah, I mean, again, we're aware of that and we want to 981 00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:14,840 make everyone's experience easier. 982 00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:18,920 So we'll be paying close attention to those as we as that 983 00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:20,920 evolves, right. So, yeah, we're really excited 984 00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:22,840 to to hear that. You know, I've talked to Andrew 985 00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:26,200 a number of times about this that the, the, the working group 986 00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:28,720 around Fido has kicked off for automotive. 987 00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:31,480 So that that we're expecting a lot of great things to come out 988 00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:35,000 of that. As I'd say like some level 989 00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:39,160 talking, going back to that exciting feeling, it's like all 990 00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:42,480 of you only just like start your career over right now and like 991 00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:46,200 just see where things are going the next 20 or 30 years or 992 00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:51,760 whatever it's going to be that a career becomes after in in that 993 00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:56,880 time. But let's talk about AII mean 994 00:53:56,880 --> 00:53:58,480 that's on the tip of everyone's tongue, right? 995 00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:01,680 That's it's almost scary to think right now, like if you're 996 00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:06,120 just starting out right now, like am I going to be obsolete 997 00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:10,200 2030 years from now? I think it's more of an enable. 998 00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:15,640 I think it's AI is going to be built to serve humans and make 999 00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:18,280 life better. That's my optimistic 1000 00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:22,160 perspective. What's your perspective on, you 1001 00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:25,760 know, a couple of big things that are going to happen in your 1002 00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:28,560 industry, in the automotive industry because of AI? 1003 00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:34,600 I think we're going to see a more at a larger proliferation 1004 00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:39,760 of, of agent based AI that will interact with customers and to 1005 00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:44,400 be able to give that first level of service and experience that 1006 00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:49,000 is more responsive, you know, more accurate in terms of, you 1007 00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:52,000 know, what you may have been able to get from the the, the 1008 00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:55,800 chat bots that that kind of preceded agents today. 1009 00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:59,160 And so I think that's going to be kind of low hanging fruit to 1010 00:54:59,160 --> 00:55:01,520 be able to take advantage of those kinds of experiences 1011 00:55:02,240 --> 00:55:04,960 within the solutions that we build and deliver. 1012 00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:08,520 I I think, you know, machine learning and AI has been used 1013 00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:09,840 from a security perspective, right? 1014 00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:13,000 Where we've been getting threat signals that have that have been 1015 00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:16,840 based on AI for a number of years now, right? 1016 00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:19,960 And so, you know, things like password spray attacks, things 1017 00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:23,200 like impossible travel, all of that is based on machine 1018 00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:25,240 learning that the that the vendors are providing. 1019 00:55:25,240 --> 00:55:27,400 So I think you'll see that evolve, right? 1020 00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:30,920 And we, you know, enterprises of our size are building a pretty 1021 00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:36,240 rich set of data around users and entitlements and the 1022 00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:39,880 resources that they access. And so to be able to do all the 1023 00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:42,080 things like automatic deprovisioning if you're not 1024 00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:44,840 using a resource make a lot of sense, right? 1025 00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:47,720 You don't have to go through that manual effort of removing 1026 00:55:47,720 --> 00:55:49,200 somebody through an access review. 1027 00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:53,640 You have some kind of of of agent, you know, watching all of 1028 00:55:53,640 --> 00:55:55,960 that activity and if they don't touch something for six months, 1029 00:55:55,960 --> 00:55:57,360 then you must not need access to it. 1030 00:55:57,560 --> 00:56:00,200 Let's take you out of it. So I think those are kind of 1031 00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:04,720 things that are will start to make a lot of sense within the 1032 00:56:04,720 --> 00:56:06,640 enterprise and things that touch customers. 1033 00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:11,480 I think you'll start to see some form of agentic AI in the 1034 00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:13,920 vehicle eventually where you'll be able to do things. 1035 00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:16,800 If you can do it within your home, you should be able to do a 1036 00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:17,920 lot of those things within the vehicle. 1037 00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:20,320 So I think you'll start to see a lot of that eventually. 1038 00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:23,440 So I think that's probably a good spot or maybe we can leave 1039 00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:27,200 it for this week. I want to thank you because I 1040 00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:29,000 told you before we hit record that we're going to take your 1041 00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:32,800 brain and like splay it out and we can keep going on and on for 1042 00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:35,000 this. I, I feel like this is an area 1043 00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:38,880 that is like super exciting. I am, I'm I'm an EV fan. 1044 00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:43,240 I think that's kind of on record at this point and the the 1045 00:56:43,240 --> 00:56:47,560 identity experience is such a core part of that. 1046 00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:49,800 I want to see you guys nail it, right? 1047 00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:53,680 It's like I want to see everyone nail it because, you know, this 1048 00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:54,920 is the experience you're having the vehicle. 1049 00:56:54,920 --> 00:56:56,520 So I and I and I think of the future, right? 1050 00:56:56,520 --> 00:56:58,520 Where is this going? OK, we're all connected vehicles 1051 00:56:58,520 --> 00:57:02,280 and things got to be secure. What happens when vehicles start 1052 00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:05,860 talking to each other and things get safer, whether it's self 1053 00:57:05,860 --> 00:57:09,280 driving or even just shared signals maybe between vehicles 1054 00:57:09,280 --> 00:57:11,920 which are devices to say hey, I'm slowing down or I'm 1055 00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:14,080 accelerating. I mean, I just think of the 1056 00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:16,240 safety applications when our. Standards for that too. 1057 00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:18,720 Yes. So I think it'll be super cool 1058 00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:20,000 to get there. And you know, identity is going 1059 00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:21,120 to be such a core component of that. 1060 00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:24,200 And and as Jim mentioned, we can talk about this forever. 1061 00:57:24,680 --> 00:57:28,120 So, but I want to talk about a couple things. 1062 00:57:28,440 --> 00:57:30,760 You're a Detroit guy. I want to first of all, and I'm 1063 00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:33,280 a an Alliance fan. You can see on your shirt there 1064 00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:35,440 I'm Bears fan. So I want to thank you first of 1065 00:57:35,440 --> 00:57:37,960 all for Ben Johnson and having him come over. 1066 00:57:38,320 --> 00:57:41,120 We're very excited to have him. I've kind of been on record with 1067 00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:43,480 my friends as it's Ben Johnson or bust. 1068 00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:46,400 We got the guy. So thank you for letting him 1069 00:57:46,400 --> 00:57:49,680 come to us. I that being said, I was rooting 1070 00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:51,640 for Detroit Lions in the play offs. 1071 00:57:51,640 --> 00:57:53,920 I wanted to see them. Yeah, at least make the Super 1072 00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:56,640 Bowl, but that didn't happen. So I'm going to put you on the 1073 00:57:56,640 --> 00:58:01,160 spot for Detroit Lions. Give me, give me a win total for 1074 00:58:01,160 --> 00:58:03,680 next year because they had a great year this year. 1075 00:58:05,080 --> 00:58:08,320 No, I think 12 wins is the floor, right. 1076 00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:11,680 So, you know, we're bringing the cast back. 1077 00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:14,440 We don't have our coordinators. So that's going to be 1078 00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:18,840 interesting evolution of of how things happen. 1079 00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:22,160 But yeah, twelve wins is the kind of the minimum that I would 1080 00:58:22,160 --> 00:58:24,360 say. And yeah, let's get a home 1081 00:58:24,360 --> 00:58:27,360 playoff game. And, and and that's, that's, 1082 00:58:27,560 --> 00:58:29,720 that's the lowest expectation at this point, right? 1083 00:58:29,720 --> 00:58:34,520 And as a Lions fan, you know, after 60 years of 60 plus years 1084 00:58:34,520 --> 00:58:37,680 of, of what we have realized, you know, what we've seen in the 1085 00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:43,400 past couple years is been great, you know, so, you know, and 1086 00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:46,920 that's regular season. You know, one of my most 1087 00:58:47,800 --> 00:58:50,240 tremendous playoff disappointments was last year 1088 00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:54,480 when we were at halftime of the NFC championship and thought we 1089 00:58:54,480 --> 00:58:55,640 were in the bag and it didn't happen. 1090 00:58:55,640 --> 00:59:01,080 So yeah, we'll stick with it. We'll we'll keep the faith and I 1091 00:59:01,080 --> 00:59:03,320 think, yeah, a minimum of 12 wins next year, get a home 1092 00:59:03,320 --> 00:59:05,400 playoff game and we'll take it from there. 1093 00:59:06,120 --> 00:59:07,760 OK, so we're going to put that on record. 1094 00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:11,200 That's the that'll be on ESPN. 12 wins or bust for the Detroit 1095 00:59:11,200 --> 00:59:14,440 Lions, courtesy of NFL analyst Andrew Cameron and also 1096 00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:16,600 technical fellow. I am at GM. 1097 00:59:17,560 --> 00:59:20,360 All right, another for Detroit thing, pizza. 1098 00:59:20,520 --> 00:59:24,120 Are you a Detroit style, New York style or Chicago style 1099 00:59:24,120 --> 00:59:30,360 pizza? I am Chicago style primarily and 1100 00:59:30,360 --> 00:59:34,440 we have a Chicago style pizza place here in Detroit called 1101 00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:37,280 Pizzapolis. It's in downtown Detroit that 1102 00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:41,480 has been a staple for decades and I would recommend anyone to 1103 00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:44,960 hit that. It's it's as good as any Chicago 1104 00:59:44,960 --> 00:59:47,440 deep dish that I've ever had. And I've been, I've had, you 1105 00:59:47,440 --> 00:59:49,440 know, I've had George Donald and everything else from Chicago, 1106 00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:53,800 but I'd say Pizza Papolis is probably our our best kind of 1107 00:59:53,800 --> 00:59:56,680 deep dish Chicago style pizza and that's the one I've enjoyed 1108 00:59:56,680 --> 00:59:59,200 the most. It's the one thing I'm one of 1109 00:59:59,200 --> 01:00:02,680 the things I miss living in North Carolina now is the pizza 1110 01:00:02,680 --> 01:00:04,200 down here is nowhere near as good. 1111 01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:06,520 It's the Chicago area, so I'm always. 1112 01:00:06,520 --> 01:00:08,080 Looking for pizza? Spots to to hit up. 1113 01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:12,160 OK, Jim, real quick, are you what, New York? 1114 01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:16,400 Chicago or Detroit pizza? I've always been Detroit or you 1115 01:00:16,400 --> 01:00:19,600 know, I used to work at the Renaissance Center, Andrew and. 1116 01:00:20,600 --> 01:00:21,600 You know. Greektown. 1117 01:00:21,600 --> 01:00:25,400 There's, there's, I don't know, I always felt like Detroit was 1118 01:00:25,400 --> 01:00:29,120 coming back. I was there around 2009 through 1119 01:00:29,120 --> 01:00:34,000 2012 and I felt like Detroit was really coming back. 1120 01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:37,760 But what I really loved the most about the place was the pizza. 1121 01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:44,920 And but given that I love New York style pizza, there's not 1122 01:00:44,920 --> 01:00:47,360 many pizzas I don't like. So. 1123 01:00:48,040 --> 01:00:52,680 But Detroit's my favorite, yeah. At the early stages of our, of 1124 01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:56,840 our kind of the, the downtown rebirth was right around 2011, 1125 01:00:56,840 --> 01:00:59,800 2012. It's, it's a lot different even 1126 01:00:59,800 --> 01:01:04,160 now than it was 1012 years ago. So it's it's pretty exciting 1127 01:01:04,160 --> 01:01:07,440 down there now. Yeah, I, I've always been 1128 01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:10,760 rooting for Detroit to come back because I think it like, you 1129 01:01:10,760 --> 01:01:15,520 know, it became like the thing that people would, would almost 1130 01:01:15,520 --> 01:01:18,360 joke about is like, oh, it was a safe to joke about. 1131 01:01:18,360 --> 01:01:20,720 Like, oh, Detroit is falling apart. 1132 01:01:20,920 --> 01:01:23,320 And it's like, First off, that's it's not really funny. 1133 01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:27,960 And 2nd off, it's really a good, a good city. 1134 01:01:27,960 --> 01:01:30,520 And now I felt like it was coming back while I was there. 1135 01:01:31,000 --> 01:01:32,240 Yeah, I've been here all the life. 1136 01:01:32,800 --> 01:01:36,520 I'm a lifelong Detroiter and I will, I can represent, you know, 1137 01:01:36,520 --> 01:01:38,320 if you want to know the truth, talk to me. 1138 01:01:38,320 --> 01:01:41,080 I'll give you the truth. Don't, don't, don't follow the 1139 01:01:41,080 --> 01:01:44,600 Internet and what it's been saying from a downtown 1140 01:01:44,600 --> 01:01:46,440 perspective, it's so totally different. 1141 01:01:46,440 --> 01:01:50,640 And it's, if it's anyone that's, you know, the NFL draft that was 1142 01:01:50,640 --> 01:01:53,680 here a couple of years ago, I think was an overwhelming 1143 01:01:53,680 --> 01:01:58,720 example of us being able to host large events and people all 1144 01:01:58,720 --> 01:01:59,960 having a great time when they're here. 1145 01:01:59,960 --> 01:02:03,480 So it's pretty cool. I've never been to Detroit other 1146 01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:04,920 than the airport. That's pretty much it. 1147 01:02:05,320 --> 01:02:06,640 One of the. One of the cities. 1148 01:02:06,840 --> 01:02:11,600 In Midwest I haven't been to. Come, come, come one, Jeff. 1149 01:02:11,600 --> 01:02:15,440 We'll, I'll give you the the Grand Tour anytime. 1150 01:02:15,440 --> 01:02:18,080 You're welcome. All right, all right, that's 1151 01:02:18,080 --> 01:02:20,200 probably a good spot. Well, I'm going to head up to 1152 01:02:20,200 --> 01:02:21,880 Detroit. We're going to get some pizza, 1153 01:02:21,880 --> 01:02:23,960 and then I'm going to continue to take little slices of 1154 01:02:23,960 --> 01:02:27,720 Andrew's brain and tear it out and put it on display for people 1155 01:02:27,720 --> 01:02:29,080 in the podcast. So that's what we'll do. 1156 01:02:29,840 --> 01:02:31,640 Andrew, thank you so much for being part of this. 1157 01:02:32,200 --> 01:02:33,960 You're it's funny right now because you're using the virtual 1158 01:02:33,960 --> 01:02:35,240 background and you've totally faded. 1159 01:02:36,040 --> 01:02:39,920 It's almost like homework going. In Slime I. 1160 01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:42,480 Think, yeah, the lighting just changed in my room, which is 1161 01:02:42,480 --> 01:02:43,800 really interesting. But yeah. 1162 01:02:44,480 --> 01:02:46,040 If that's not a signal, it's a wrap up. 1163 01:02:46,040 --> 01:02:49,120 There you go. All right, Andrew, thank you for 1164 01:02:49,120 --> 01:02:50,520 being part of this. I'm going to have your LinkedIn 1165 01:02:50,520 --> 01:02:52,960 profile on our show notes so people can reach out, whether 1166 01:02:52,960 --> 01:02:56,080 it's, you know, about identity or maybe just better places to 1167 01:02:56,080 --> 01:02:58,480 eat pizza in the Detroit area where you can have those 1168 01:02:58,480 --> 01:03:01,560 conversations. You can find us on the web, IDC 1169 01:03:01,560 --> 01:03:03,400 podcast.com. Again, we'll have all of our 1170 01:03:03,400 --> 01:03:06,040 discounts for the conferences on our homepage. 1171 01:03:06,680 --> 01:03:09,560 Reach out to Jim and I and we get lots of great guests come on 1172 01:03:09,560 --> 01:03:11,600 through word of mouth and networking and things like that. 1173 01:03:11,600 --> 01:03:15,200 So let us know if you've got folks that'll be good for an 1174 01:03:15,200 --> 01:03:17,720 episode like this. And yeah, like and subscribe. 1175 01:03:17,920 --> 01:03:20,000 That always helps us out. Doesn't cost you anything. 1176 01:03:20,160 --> 01:03:22,000 Hit that button. But it does help us out 1177 01:03:22,000 --> 01:03:24,520 immensely. So with that, we'll go ahead and 1178 01:03:24,520 --> 01:03:26,400 leave it for this week. Andrew has almost completely 1179 01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:30,040 faded into the Bush Lake Homer and thank everyone for watching 1180 01:03:30,040 --> 01:03:32,960 and or listening and we'll talk with you all in the next one. 1181 01:03:33,080 --> 01:03:37,160 Thanks guys. You've been listening to 1182 01:03:37,160 --> 01:03:41,040 Identity at the Center. We hope you've enjoyed the show. 1183 01:03:41,240 --> 01:03:45,360 Make sure to like, rate and review, and we'll be back soon. 1184 01:03:45,640 --> 01:03:47,880 But in the meantime, hit the website at 1185 01:03:47,880 --> 01:03:54,240 identity@thecenter.com. See you next time on Identity at 1186 01:03:54,240 --> 01:03:55,160 the Center.