1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:04,240 So how do we do ensure that this all is kept under control? 2 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:07,320 I think this entire field, I tend to call it a identity. 3 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:11,480 So the intersection of AI and identity is still a pretty much 4 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:16,079 a wide space on our technology map. 5 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:21,640 We see a lot of start-ups around AI security nowadays, but I 6 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:24,400 think we need start-ups around a identity. 7 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:28,800 It seems to me that technology, the functionality is going to 8 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:32,280 blaze way past security. So it happened with cloud 9 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:36,680 infrastructure, I think, and I think it'll happen again. 10 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:41,520 I think the fall back will be some sort of leveraging legacy 11 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:44,600 permissions, which we already know are not good enough. 12 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:46,880 I think that's maybe what you're referencing. 13 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:49,720 You have these super users administrate system 14 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:51,960 administrators. Does that mean the System 15 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:55,640 Administrator can start using AI to find out all kinds of 16 00:00:55,920 --> 00:01:00,200 information about the company or information they they shouldn't 17 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:07,080 have access to? Even think about someone having 18 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:10,240 access to the AI. Which all, by the way, brings us 19 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:16,240 back to the initial theme, identity, verified identities. 20 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:18,440 So is it really Martin using the AI? 21 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:22,040 And what is the AI supposed to do in the context of Martin? 22 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:27,800 And if it's not Martin or if someone is is using the AI in 23 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:31,280 different contexts, there might be way more information that is 24 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:35,320 to discuss or even if the AI is is sort of constrained in what 25 00:01:35,320 --> 00:01:37,720 it can do in the context of the individual. 26 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:42,400 I think this is a very interesting field to think about 27 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:52,480 for 2025. This is identity at the center 28 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:56,120 if it has anything to do with IAM. 29 00:01:56,120 --> 00:02:02,640 This is the go to podcast now your hosts Jim McDonald and Jeff 30 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:10,360 Steadman. Welcome to the Identity of the 31 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:12,080 Center podcast. I'm Jeff, and that's Jim. 32 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:13,680 Hey, Jim. Hey, Jeff, how are you? 33 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:15,840 Oh, not so bad yourself. Doing great. 34 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:21,840 This episode is going to drop on January 20th, which is also the 35 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:27,280 same day as the college football national championship game. 36 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:30,960 So in honor of that, I wore my Georgia Bulldogs T-shirt. 37 00:02:31,640 --> 00:02:34,320 But. Unfortunately, the Georgia 38 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:36,440 Bulldogs will not be playing in that game. 39 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:40,520 But I, I can always dream. There's always next year. 40 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:44,400 You're you're a Chicago fan. You've got to be used to saying 41 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:47,040 that by now. Well, I am a Chicago fan. 42 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:48,800 I don't really follow college football, so I could care less 43 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:51,840 what's going on there. But I am a Chicago Bears fan 44 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:55,200 and, well, you know, there's always next year has been our 45 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:57,160 our phrase throughout the last 40 years. 46 00:02:57,160 --> 00:02:59,600 So. So, yeah, I can advise that. 47 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:01,360 You know, when you stood up there for a second, I thought 48 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:04,200 you were like going to like flash us or you had like, you 49 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:06,960 know, your chest pain or something like, like a super 50 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:08,440 fan. I'm a little disappointed that 51 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:11,160 we didn't get to see that side. Are you trying to drive people 52 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:14,200 to YouTube or what? Yeah, exactly. 53 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:16,840 Yeah. Hey, anything we can do to go 54 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:19,320 viral, Jim, come on, do it. Do it for the views. 55 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:22,440 Yeah, right. Yeah, we'll we'll talk about 56 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:27,240 identity, we'll talk about AII. Think that'll have to drive our 57 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:30,080 views for now. Yeah, let's focus on the 58 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:33,160 conversation, but I think before we get to that, let's talk about 59 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:36,920 EIC 2025 because you and I are going to be there for the first 60 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:39,400 time in Berlin, Germany. It's May 6th, the 9th. 61 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:41,640 And like I mentioned, Jim and I will be there. 62 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:44,480 We've got a discount code for everyone who is willing to show 63 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:45,760 their support and partake in that. 64 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:51,320 The code is ID, AC25 MKO and I get you 25% off. 65 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:52,800 Don't worry about remembering that right now. 66 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:55,600 I'll have it in our show notes and you'll be able to find it 67 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:57,320 easily on our website. It's right on our home page. 68 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:00,240 So I'm looking forward to that first time in Berlin. 69 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:02,560 We're going to ask our guests some questions about that 70 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:05,160 probably towards the end of our conversation around what should 71 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:08,880 I be doing Berlin, first time there, but I'm looking forward 72 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:09,400 to it. What about? 73 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:10,800 You, Jim. Oh, I can't wait. 74 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:12,320 I've never been to Berlin either. 75 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:16,680 I've also never been to Munich, which I think is where EIC was 76 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:20,320 in past years. So maybe in the future if it's 77 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:22,960 moved to Munich, we'll get to go there as well. 78 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:25,320 But I'm excited. I've never been to Berlin. 79 00:04:25,840 --> 00:04:28,640 I've been to Frankfurt. That's about it. 80 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:34,360 So yeah, you know, I love experiencing new cultures and I 81 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:37,160 love German food. There's a German food restaurant 82 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:40,320 near me at home. And, you know, I'm kind of 83 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:42,280 bored. I get the Schnitzel every time. 84 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:44,960 But I do that at at every restaurant. 85 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:47,040 Once I find what I like, I kind of stick to it. 86 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:49,240 Yeah, I'm the same way with chicken and waffles. 87 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:50,920 So maybe we'll see how that works. 88 00:04:52,280 --> 00:04:53,840 You're way ahead too. You've already like booked your 89 00:04:53,840 --> 00:04:54,880 flight. I have not. 90 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:57,200 And I'm still my wife and I was trying to figure out how we're 91 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:00,480 going to do all this because she's probably going to join me 92 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:01,880 out there. And then, you know, we're 93 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:03,440 planning on trying to hit other areas. 94 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:06,280 So we I have not even, we have not even figured out what we're 95 00:05:06,280 --> 00:05:08,840 going to do yet. And so I know I'm behind where 96 00:05:08,840 --> 00:05:11,640 you're at right now, Jim. Yeah, I'm going to be out there 97 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:15,920 the week before flying into Oslo, meeting a bunch of 98 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:19,800 identerati and Oslo the the local identerati. 99 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,120 I haven't figured out exactly what we're going to do after 100 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:27,240 that, but I'm thinking we're going to, I'm leaning toward 101 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:31,640 like an urban vacation, right? So this is like a vacation week, 102 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:37,000 definitely meeting folks from Norway the first couple of days. 103 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:38,960 And then we weren't sure if we're going to drive through the 104 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:43,520 countryside of Norway, which is absolutely spectacular from what 105 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:47,280 I've seen in YouTube and things like that, or we're going to go 106 00:05:47,280 --> 00:05:51,240 to Stockholm and Copenhagen. That's kind of option 2. 107 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:53,760 I guess there's a third wild card option, which I don't know 108 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:59,000 what that is, but if we do Stockholm and Copenhagen, I'd 109 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:02,280 like to try to find local identity in those locations. 110 00:06:02,280 --> 00:06:06,520 So if you're listening and you live near those cities or in 111 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:08,720 those cities, reach out to me on LinkedIn. 112 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:11,240 I'd love to, you know, meet and have a beer. 113 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:13,760 I'm sure you'll have stickers with you too, right? 114 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:17,480 Oh, of course. Yeah, you gotta stock up my bag 115 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:18,760 all. Right, well, why don't we get to 116 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:21,080 our guests? He is the founder and principal 117 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:23,760 analyst with Koopinger. Cole, welcome back to the show 118 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:27,520 for the 5th time, Martin. Really #5 already? 119 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:33,760 #5 Yep, for joining me look, we always like having you on it 120 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:37,160 seems like we have you on every maybe like 9 to 12 months kind 121 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:40,560 of seems to be kind of the, the thing you've been very gracious 122 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:43,160 along with EIC to invite Jim and I to come out there and we're 123 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:45,120 looking forward to again our first time being there. 124 00:06:45,840 --> 00:06:47,880 We have actually a lot that we want to cover today. 125 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:50,640 So I'm not going to ask you about your background on that 126 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:52,200 stuff because you've been on the show five times. 127 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:55,040 Go back and listen to previous episodes of Martin if if that's 128 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:57,360 what they interest you. But why don't we just jump right 129 00:06:57,360 --> 00:06:58,680 into it? Because if there's a lot of 130 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:01,200 topics that people are interested in and seem to be 131 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:05,400 gaining steam in this space, and the first one is identity 132 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:09,840 verification, It seems like the last couple confidence I've been 133 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:15,520 to Gartner Identity Week and last year's Identiverse seem to 134 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:20,400 have much more prevalent prevalence of these types of 135 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:22,320 identity verification tools. And I think it's starting to 136 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:24,920 pick up at least in the US, especially around things like 137 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:28,080 fraud and being able to after identify who's on the other end, 138 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:29,600 right? Kind of the know your customer 139 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:31,600 type thing, but it seems to be expanding. 140 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:34,200 I'm curious from your perspective as someone who 141 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:37,840 really knows, you know, the IM space at large, where do you see 142 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:39,840 the identity verification market? 143 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:43,560 And how does this look for 2025? Do you think it is still 144 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:45,640 ascending? Is it sort of reached a peak or 145 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:48,120 are we kind of in a stable platform now? 146 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:52,280 Yeah. So before we come to that, maybe 147 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:54,400 just a few comments on Germantowns. 148 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:57,160 OK. So Berlin, Berlin is great. 149 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:00,440 It's its largest town. It's it's a bit actually, but it 150 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:05,360 has has has something Munich also nicely off the mountains 151 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:07,840 close to it, etcetera. Frankfurt, we we may discuss 152 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:10,440 about it, but I personally believe the place to be a 153 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:14,600 Stuttgart where I live. I'm just as a little adword for 154 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:21,080 my hometown, really, really nice town, but clearly a lot of nice 155 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:23,440 places. If you ever travel in Germany, 156 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:25,880 let me know. I usually know some quite nice 157 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:28,200 places to go in Germany and Europe. 158 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:36,280 Anyway, identity verification, it is essential because at the 159 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:40,280 end of the day of everything we do in security or most we do in 160 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:42,799 security at least. And when you look at zero trust, 161 00:08:42,799 --> 00:08:44,800 for instance, it starts with identity. 162 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:49,520 It's Martin using a device to authenticate. 163 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:52,240 But is it really Martin? And I think this is the big 164 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:54,080 question behind identity verification. 165 00:08:54,440 --> 00:09:00,880 This is really Martin. Can we assure that it is him or 166 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:08,440 someone or something else? So, so identity verification is 167 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:13,560 important that we, we need different levels of assurance 168 00:09:13,560 --> 00:09:15,280 for depending on what we are doing. 169 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:19,960 So it's not everything is based on a super, super strong 170 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:24,200 verification there. There clearly are different 171 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:26,800 levels and we have this in, in the concepts or level of 172 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:29,560 assurance etcetera. So it's, it's nothing 173 00:09:29,560 --> 00:09:32,560 fundamental in you. I personally believe that that 174 00:09:32,560 --> 00:09:36,760 we're will see a strong uptake. We definitely will see a strong 175 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:43,640 uptake over here in Europe because when the EU digital 176 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:50,480 identity wallets, UDI wallets come out in 2026 or a bit later, 177 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:56,520 then a verified identity will be an essential element within this 178 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:58,720 decentralized identity and wallet concept. 179 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:01,360 So we will need to do the verification. 180 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:06,560 We also, I think we need to move forward and this is what, what, 181 00:10:06,560 --> 00:10:10,720 for instance, decentralized identity will allow to, to be 182 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:13,920 able to reuse identity verification. 183 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:18,680 We need to make it also or simplify it. 184 00:10:18,680 --> 00:10:23,240 Especially what I really don't like is, is everything where, 185 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:25,640 where you have a human involved in the verification. 186 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:29,800 So because these things tend to be cumbersome even for me and I 187 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:32,880 would say I'm, I'm a somewhat experienced IT user. 188 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:38,040 And if, if I feel this is this is really cumbersome and 189 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:42,720 complex, then it's probably not an ideal solution yet. 190 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:49,240 So yes, we, we need to do it. The question I, I would raise is 191 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:51,680 how will will this look like in the future? 192 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:55,320 So, So what do do we do? How we do we reuse it? 193 00:10:56,760 --> 00:10:59,720 Maybe at some point when you look at all the shared signal 194 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:04,240 stuff, maybe even have enough or sufficient signals that we can 195 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:10,400 be assured that it is Martin because it's a device, it's the 196 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:13,320 location, it's the things that are done, etcetera. 197 00:11:13,560 --> 00:11:18,840 Maybe we can at some point use signals and maybe even that need 198 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:21,080 to authenticate in a traditional manner anymore. 199 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:24,520 So I think there are a lot of things we can can think about, 200 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:29,520 we can discuss where we are just still at the beginning. 201 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:32,520 So I think identity verification is a market that will grow 202 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:35,440 because we need it. We need a short identity, but we 203 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:40,880 need to also to to make it very smooth, very simple and 204 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:43,080 reusable. Because, as I've said, the most 205 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:45,800 annoying thing is if you have to go through cumbersome processes 206 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:50,480 again and again and again. Yeah, right. 207 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:56,320 It's an interesting how you started off with the focus on 208 00:11:56,320 --> 00:12:01,240 levels of assurance. My first use case that I ran 209 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:05,240 into regarding identity verification was with the 210 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:08,480 university in the US and actually I don't think that it 211 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:12,520 was University of Texas, right? So all people who are on campus 212 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:17,200 had to show up and present their driver's license or some other 213 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:21,200 government issued ID in order to get a school ID and then in 214 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:25,680 order to get a set of credentials or I'm sorry, to 215 00:12:25,680 --> 00:12:28,000 elevate their credentials so they can access certain 216 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:32,920 applications. This was around the 2013 217 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:36,160 fourteen time frame. So this was quite a while ago, 218 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:41,240 10 years ago. The all that was not a big deal 219 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:46,600 because it was all very pre COVID and it was a very on 220 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:51,080 premise group of people. However, they did have satellite 221 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:55,000 locations. I believe one was in Israel and 222 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:59,520 the folks there in Israel, they, they still had to go through 223 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:02,800 this identity verification process, but they couldn't fly 224 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:04,760 all the way to Austin, TX to do it. 225 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:09,640 So required like faxing and you know, scanning their IDs and 226 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:13,280 things like that. So it became such a, a 227 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:15,440 cumbersome process for those folks. 228 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:20,480 Now Fast forward to today, you talked about the process where 229 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:24,320 we do identity verification for, you know, in the United States, 230 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:29,120 we have to do it for submitting our taxes online or to, you 231 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:34,760 know, to access the IRS website. It, it can be very cumbersome. 232 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:39,040 I mean, the process itself is pretty smooth, but if it can't 233 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:43,120 recognize your ID or doesn't recognize a match, then it needs 234 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:46,080 to go to a human. You might have to wait 45 235 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:49,360 minutes to get in with a human. It's very cumbersome. 236 00:13:49,680 --> 00:13:55,720 So kind of in my book anyway, it's like the the level of 237 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:59,560 assurance we'd like to have identity verification for 238 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:02,200 anything that's more than maybe social media. 239 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:05,080 Yeah. But it's too cumbersome. 240 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:08,600 Yeah, and interesting. You know, when you take your IRS 241 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,280 use case, it is something you must do. 242 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:15,040 When you apply for a job, it's something you want to do or for 243 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:17,280 the university, for the higher education. 244 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:22,520 But if you go to e-commerce, you trust may say, OK, then I go 245 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:26,640 somewhere else. If you go to, if you deal with 246 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:29,240 Tychos, with banks, all these use cases. 247 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:32,600 So if bank account opening is too complex with the one bank, 248 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:36,400 you go to the next one. Maybe these are things where 249 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:38,040 where it's really about the business. 250 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:42,760 In some scenarios it is just that you're obliged to do it. 251 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:48,480 So they they, they, so to speak, a government can afford to keep 252 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:52,760 it complex because people must do it, others can't. 253 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:55,920 And so we need to make it to simplify it. 254 00:14:56,680 --> 00:14:59,440 I think this is this is a very important point, but you bring 255 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:03,520 up also an interesting aspect when I go back to my keynote, I 256 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:07,680 think it was last year's Eici talk about decentralized 257 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:12,160 identity. And one of my samples was a flow 258 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:20,400 that goes from the sort of the initial verification to access 259 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:25,200 to IT systems when you're working for instance, as a 260 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:30,560 consultant at a, at a customer. So, so you have the 261 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:36,120 verification, your wallet and then you can onboard to an 262 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,280 employer because you have a verified identity. 263 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:43,080 In that case, you can do the onboarding to the employer. 264 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:46,200 That employer adds additional verifiable credentials like 265 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:48,840 you're at coping and Co analysts, you're the principal 266 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:53,760 analyst or a principal analyst with that information. 267 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:58,560 Then you may say, OK, I'm in a project at company X and the 268 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:01,280 company X then says, OK, you're employed there. 269 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:03,000 You're you're really Martin Copinger. 270 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:07,160 They have the data, which saves them, by the way, a ton of money 271 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:12,560 when you you also have been working at consulting at other 272 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:15,080 companies. And sometimes you you spend 273 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:19,280 really hours for just getting a badge. 274 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:23,880 You can automate everything. You can simplify this process 275 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:29,000 and you don't pay advice for a consultant half a day for 276 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:32,240 nothing. That doesn't make sense, but you 277 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:35,520 can we can avoid it. And then then you could say, OK. 278 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:38,280 And right now, Martin isn't this project and this role. 279 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:44,440 And in an ideal world, the access to whatever the tools, 280 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:47,960 the websites, the information would be granted automatically 281 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:53,000 based on all the attributes, 0 friction by just one identity 282 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:59,880 verification, real massive process, cost savings, higher 283 00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:03,560 security, all doable. So we need it and we need to get 284 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:07,079 much better on that. And we we need, I think again, 285 00:17:07,079 --> 00:17:11,319 back to the level of assurance. What, what, what I feel is also 286 00:17:11,319 --> 00:17:16,079 around the UDI wallet frequently is, is the challenges that a lot 287 00:17:16,079 --> 00:17:20,480 of people, especially in Germany being a bit more paranoid on 288 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:23,920 that side. Maybe on average we're thinking 289 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:26,280 about always the highest level of assurance. 290 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:29,040 We don't need the highest level of assurance for everything. 291 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:32,120 We need to only for very few use cases, even in government 292 00:17:32,120 --> 00:17:35,920 interactions for many of the things we don't need the highest 293 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:39,840 level of assurance we can do today a lot of things where we 294 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:44,120 don't need the the highest level of assurance. 295 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:48,120 And that that is where we should think about what is it really? 296 00:17:48,120 --> 00:17:52,200 How can we do this created. But clearly if we have a 297 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:56,280 reusable verifiable identity in place, it's super powerful. 298 00:17:56,480 --> 00:18:01,960 What I fear is that we end up with 100 wallets from 100 banks. 299 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:06,520 Doesn't make sense. It just doesn't make sense. 300 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:10,880 Don't go for individual wallets, go for reusable identities. 301 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:17,760 Yeah, that's where I, I share that same fear because at any 302 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:20,720 given point people are going to trust or not trust any of these 303 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:23,760 wallets. And so what's the point of 304 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:26,520 having multiple wallets, the whole point of one wall and to 305 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:29,240 keep everything if I have to carry around 7:00 or 8:00 or 10 306 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:31,360 different wallets that totally defeat the purpose. 307 00:18:31,360 --> 00:18:33,600 Now we just created another version of the password. 308 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:36,360 And that's what I'm, that's what I'm most afraid of in this 309 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:42,600 decentralized sort of idea is trust at any given point, and 310 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,520 I'll just speak on the US side, half the population doesn't 311 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:47,920 trust the government, doesn't matter who's who's in charge. 312 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:50,120 The other half doesn't like that. 313 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:54,800 So, you know, if government isn't an option, then what is? 314 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:56,800 Is it education? Well, not everybody is an 315 00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:58,600 education. Is it healthcare? 316 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:00,680 Not everyone, at least in the US, has healthcare. 317 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:03,760 Is that finance? Not everyone, you know, may have 318 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:07,400 the same financial, you know, access things like that. 319 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:10,760 So I am concerned about that, about that just like you 320 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:13,400 mentioned, Martin. I honestly I I've heard don't 321 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:15,160 believe that we only will have one wallet. 322 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:18,200 It will be probably more than one wallet. 323 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,640 And we also probably should should think about is not really 324 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:23,480 as a wallet because there will be so much in that. 325 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:28,000 It's way too big for a wallet. It's it's, it's, it's really 326 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:31,360 more than that. It's a drawer or or even a a set 327 00:19:31,360 --> 00:19:34,920 of this. But I believe that we will have 328 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:37,200 more than one, partly for the trust reasons. 329 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:39,480 You may use the government one only for the things where you 330 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:44,520 deal with the government, but you don't want to have many. 331 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:48,720 So the number will be, I will personally believe a relatively 332 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:51,200 low number. It's not a lot about us. 333 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:54,800 I could envision that that we will see also very much purpose 334 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:56,320 built. Well wallets like a travel 335 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:59,920 wallet that not only sort of holds the information but helps 336 00:19:59,920 --> 00:20:03,440 you managing all the travel etcetera, which could be 337 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:05,280 interesting business case things like that. 338 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:09,160 I think this is this is probably more likely to happen when we 339 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:12,440 look at this this world of of of wallets. 340 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:18,600 The the other thing is trust. I think what we also should 341 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:23,880 think about is. How can we build trust? 342 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:29,520 We can't build a trust by having one sort sort of one strong 343 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:33,000 proof, OK, we trust the government or not. 344 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:42,680 And we could also say if we have a lot of college signals again 345 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:49,680 that hint in the same direction, you also can build trust because 346 00:20:51,120 --> 00:20:54,200 I think that's not exact mathematics because there are 347 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:57,800 there are overlaps there. So, but at the end of the day, 348 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:02,080 if, if one signal has a 90% probability, it also means it 349 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:04,240 has a 10% probability of failing. 350 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:09,360 If you have a 2nd signal that also has a 10% probability of 351 00:21:09,360 --> 00:21:13,960 failing and these are these are not overlapping, then the 352 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:20,600 probability of failing would be not 10% but 0011 percent. 353 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:26,080 So if you have many signals and combine them and they hit in the 354 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:29,040 right direction, this is clearly a lot of algorithm stuff 355 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:32,880 etcetera and thinking about how do you do it properly but and 356 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:37,440 what is when when some signal hints in the opposite direction. 357 00:21:38,120 --> 00:21:41,960 But basically, you can't build a lot of trust on weaker signals 358 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:46,800 if you have enough of them. I think, what can I think the 359 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:51,720 only thing that can build trust in the current world is 360 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:59,560 openness, Open standards, that you can't go and hide things 361 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:02,080 behind the scene, that there is some kind of agreed upon 362 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:06,120 standard. Maybe there's some independent 363 00:22:06,120 --> 00:22:11,480 third party or multiple third parties that verify that this 364 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:16,280 wallet meets the standard. So I wanted to. 365 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:21,000 Again, again, again, the standard is one thing, but then 366 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:22,720 you have a verified identity in the wallet. 367 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:28,120 The wallet complies to the standard, but do you trust the 368 00:22:28,120 --> 00:22:31,440 verification? That's again the point. 369 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:35,200 Who was the verifier? If you're that, that's maybe 370 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:39,000 something, you know, if we if we go through the verification more 371 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:42,760 than once, so we have a reusable identity, but we have three 372 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:46,880 independent verifications in the same wallet, then then you know, 373 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:50,600 someone can pick and say, OK, I don't trust that party. 374 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:54,280 But oh, if this and this also verified it, then it probably is 375 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:57,600 correct. So that might be the way we we 376 00:22:57,600 --> 00:22:59,440 should think about it. That's right. 377 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:01,120 You know if. You're if. 378 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:04,960 You're talking about like age verification or something like 379 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:06,640 that. Whether or not you trust the 380 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:11,160 government, you probably trust the driver's license that says 381 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,880 the person's 21 that can buy this bottle of liquor or 382 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:18,000 something like that. So you might not inherently say 383 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,800 I trust the government with all my private information. 384 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:25,200 Yet we, most of us go and get government issued IDs because 385 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,040 you can't do anything in the world without it. 386 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:31,240 You touched on the enterprise use case for identity 387 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:35,080 verification. I, I feel that's something that 388 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:38,320 has always resonated with me where I could bring in a new 389 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:41,120 employee. No lives, nowhere close to an 390 00:23:41,120 --> 00:23:43,600 office. You know, I know I've joined 391 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:48,440 companies and not gone to offices for the first year or 392 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:52,640 more without going to one of the physical locations. 393 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,320 I've always thought like if you could do the identity 394 00:23:56,320 --> 00:24:00,480 verification process for those people especially, but also like 395 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:02,800 to fill in. You know, we have a form in the 396 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:06,720 US called I think it's the I-9 where it's like basically you 397 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:10,400 get into the tax system that hey, you now work here and all 398 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:12,080 that. The data is the same. 399 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:14,560 If you could bring that and just plug it in. 400 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:20,440 I think that the idea is great, but I don't see many companies 401 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:23,440 saying, all right, that's a big enough of a problem for me to go 402 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,120 out and buy a product to solve that issue. 403 00:24:26,120 --> 00:24:30,040 Even if I have a lot of employees, say 100,000 404 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:33,840 employees, I probably don't have a big enough of A use case in 405 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:39,600 one central HR system where you know, that wouldn't be an 406 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,440 integration nightmare. Now, however, if it was a 407 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:46,000 feature of a product that I already own, I might flip the 408 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,320 switch and start using that feature, at least for some 409 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:52,840 subset of the use case. So long way of getting to my 410 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:55,880 question, which is identity verification. 411 00:24:56,240 --> 00:25:01,520 Is it a standalone product or should it be, or a feature of 412 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:05,800 something else like your identity management system? 413 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:14,000 Service short answer. So you had this long questions 414 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:18,080 or I decided for the? Yeah, yeah, the answer is 415 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:19,720 fantastic. I almost missed it. 416 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:24,360 You must be a service that can be consumed and integrated. 417 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:26,480 Yeah. So a service that can be 418 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:30,800 consumed and integrated into your onboarding, however that 419 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,080 takes place. Correctly. 420 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:35,000 OK. So I don't think that it makes 421 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,840 sense to to build take the technology again and again and 422 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:43,040 again. So my colleague Annie currently 423 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,480 is working on the leadership composite identity verification 424 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:52,760 and I think her her preliminary list was in this 300 plus vendor 425 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,920 range. 300 plus vendors. OK, wow. 426 00:25:56,520 --> 00:26:00,040 OK, so and and all doing it a bit different. 427 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:04,280 So, so selecting the ones and and saying, OK, this is the ones 428 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:07,920 we look at all AT and and this leadership compass is not not an 429 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:09,360 easy thing. Yeah. 430 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:11,960 OK. So this gets speed. 431 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:14,360 Thank you. So I think what you're basically 432 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:16,880 talking about is like orchestrating some kind of 433 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:23,360 onboarding workflow to tap into a third party service that would 434 00:26:23,360 --> 00:26:27,560 then, you know, verify the credential, redirect back, let 435 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:30,080 the company know the person's BeenVerified, etcetera. 436 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:32,600 Unless you do it with decentralized identities, which 437 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,720 would be definitely for the future the smartest way to do 438 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,120 it. OK, so Speaking of the. 439 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,720 Future that that would be I I believe the smartest, smartest 440 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:47,160 way to do it and you know it. It's like like you have have 441 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,280 whatever a batch, a corporate batch etcetera for entering the 442 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:54,600 building etcetera. You also can either add 443 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:58,600 something to a wallet makes more sense or or issue your corporate 444 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:01,400 wallet if you already want to go down that path. 445 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:05,480 But but it's still then you, you do you have ways to do to do 446 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,920 that in a in a smart manner and re reuse things. 447 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:14,840 And then the service would be basically serving sort of the, 448 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:18,240 the ones who are issuing the credentials into the wallets or 449 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:21,160 to the holder correctly. I think it's also something we 450 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:25,000 we need to be very, very precise on the, the the basic 451 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:28,600 decentralized anti model is not a wallet model. 452 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:33,320 It's a issuer to hold or to verifier, but the wallet is 453 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,800 trust the technical means to hold verifiable credentials. 454 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:41,440 So we anyway put way too much emphasis on on the wallet and 455 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,320 not on the holder. And that's also why I believe 456 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,600 we, we should think always about people having more than one 457 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:49,840 wallet, having the same credential, multiple wallets 458 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,080 that are giving them the choice, because this is really the 459 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:57,000 holder focused on the thinking, which makes more sense than the 460 00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,920 wallet thinking of today. Interesting. 461 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:05,640 So I've been wanting to figuring out how to bring up this topic. 462 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:11,840 So I've been watching a lot of videos lately around AI agents. 463 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:17,960 The idea is that the AI agents are, you know, like people. 464 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,240 They can do things, but they're also like applications. 465 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:26,720 I saw a video with Satya Nadellam, the CEO of Microsoft, 466 00:28:27,120 --> 00:28:31,200 talking about AI agents. He says AI agents are going to 467 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:35,600 replace SAS. That's a that's a big statement. 468 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:39,120 By coming from him, I put some trust in that, right? 469 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:45,520 I mean, he's a visionary. It gets me to also think, you 470 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:49,520 know, I'm going to shortcut to, OK, go to a lot of identity 471 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,960 conferences. Every product is now AI enabled. 472 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:57,080 I noticed on your website, All right, I'm sorry, on one of your 473 00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,800 announcers, Cooper Cole's now AI enabled as well. 474 00:28:59,960 --> 00:29:03,640 So in November, you announced Martin the Chat bot. 475 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:06,440 I was wondering if you could tell us about Martin the Chat 476 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:08,680 bot. Yeah, so, so first I have to say 477 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:10,880 it. It wasn't me who announced it 478 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:12,880 and it wasn't me who came up with the name. 479 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:16,400 So. So when I heard about that, they 480 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:18,640 they intend to call it Martin. I said, Oh no, come on. 481 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:26,000 But yeah, I gave up on this conversation basically, to be 482 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,360 honest, our cooking a call website, we we hadn't a good 483 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:31,920 search functionality for many, many years. 484 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:39,800 It was really, really not good. So I myself tended to use Google 485 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,360 or Bing to look for content on our website. 486 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:47,440 Right now I only use our search function because it's it's 487 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,440 really great. So we had have a new search 488 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:53,360 functionality. We have to chat bot which 489 00:29:54,560 --> 00:30:02,760 provides as a relies on ALM model and it uses this retrieval 490 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:07,840 augmented generation thing. So it it uses the the content we 491 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:11,320 have on the website which is in a lot of places like like 492 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:14,480 YouTube etcetera, which is really a ton of content in 493 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,400 different formats to provide the answer. 494 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,760 So this is basically what what we did and I think it simplifies 495 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:24,040 really the access to our information, which is also very 496 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,520 important because you're pushing out this membership and then or 497 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:32,120 pushing the membership model more these days, enabling people 498 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,920 to get access to all of our research in a very flexible 499 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:38,120 manner. So, so I think if you, if you 500 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,560 clearly, if you have this membership, then you also should 501 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:44,480 enable people to find what they need to get the answers they 502 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,320 need. And talking to this virtual 503 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:54,440 Martin Chile is one element in that. 504 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:58,240 While the membership also offers a lot of other benefits, like 505 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:02,360 the ability to talk to the real market and even things like 506 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:04,880 that, which may even be more interesting. 507 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,920 But I think it, it makes very clear where I see AI it it's in 508 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:13,240 that sense of augmenting intelligence, it helps people to 509 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,120 do things better. Like the like it doesn't in most 510 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:20,240 areas where we use AI and and assistance system and a vehicle, 511 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:25,880 which is usually in some way AI powered, basically augments the 512 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:31,880 driver, helps doing the job of a driver in this case, safety, for 513 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:35,760 instance, better. So yes, that's there. 514 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:42,080 To your point around will AI replace SAS? 515 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,560 I think it's, it's, it's a bit of an oversimplification. 516 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:52,520 Sorry, Sacha, because there are elements which you clearly can 517 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:57,680 do better and different when it comes to looking up data, when 518 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,840 it comes to to accessing information etcetera, searching 519 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:03,560 for information, combining information out of different 520 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:05,600 sources, there's a clear advantage. 521 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,760 But there are a lot of things which are really form based 522 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:12,920 processes like invoicing, stuff like that, which are commonly 523 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:17,080 run a SAS, which probably will not be easily replaced. 524 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:19,680 But you don't have that kind of innovation that, you know, a lot 525 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,680 of things we do with IT, service management, for instance, 526 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:25,600 basically, at least we'll run through a very different 527 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:29,840 interface and I'll see, see some interesting start-ups these 528 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:31,920 days, for instance, in the identity management space, which 529 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:38,680 come up with, in fact, AI layers that allow you to, to get all 530 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:42,440 what you need, like the report, the data, the stuff out of your 531 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:47,760 world with a simple natural language query. 532 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,440 So these are things. And we, we are also covering 533 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:55,280 some of these vendors in our new format, the rising star format, 534 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:59,080 where we look at, at vendors that are very innovative, young, 535 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,240 relatively small, but, but growing and, and have a very 536 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:06,080 strong product market fit. And this is where we already 537 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,920 covered one or two of these because I think this is another 538 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,200 area where, where I see a huge potential for that. 539 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:16,760 So I I think it will not replace everything, but it will clearly 540 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:23,640 have a huge impact, especially when it comes to getting data 541 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:28,200 out of all these sources we have. 542 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:34,560 Yeah, I kind of feel like if Martin and I came up, here's one 543 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:36,520 thing you have to do. If you're an identity, you have 544 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:39,040 to come up with the right acronym. 545 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:41,000 So I came up with an acronym for you. 546 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:43,600 I'm not saying it's the final one, I just thought of it. 547 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:50,640 MARTN stands for Machine and AI Research Trained Neuro Network 548 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,120 and was a tough one, right? Neuro Network was the IT buzz 549 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:59,920 term for a while and never became anything right so. 550 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,280 Maybe you, you, you. You just say nerd. 551 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:08,400 There you go, trained nerd because like a person. 552 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:15,080 But here's here's my thought. So you take you're, you're 553 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:19,960 taking Cooper Cole's complete body of research or whatever you 554 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:24,560 have in terms of research, and then you let the AI loose on it 555 00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:29,199 in terms of learning it. Now, one thing, I don't know if 556 00:34:29,199 --> 00:34:32,120 you heard the study that that happened recently where they 557 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:37,320 said they, they took sick patients and they had a doctor 558 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:42,040 analyze them to come up with, you know, here's what illness 559 00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:43,400 you have and here's the treatment plan. 560 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:47,920 They had an AI do it and they had a doctor with an AI. 561 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:51,400 And that was the order that they or I'm sorry, the order that 562 00:34:51,639 --> 00:34:55,520 finishes the most accurate was AI was the most accurate. 563 00:34:56,239 --> 00:35:00,600 The doctor by himself or herself was the second most accurate. 564 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:04,080 The third most accurate was the doctor with the AI. 565 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,960 So potentially the doctor over ruling the AI and inserting the 566 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:12,760 wrong answer and it got. Or or or or or not really 567 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,240 trusting the AI and things like that. 568 00:35:15,720 --> 00:35:20,280 I think for AI we need a very proper quality assurance. 569 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:22,360 So we need to to look at the results. 570 00:35:22,720 --> 00:35:26,720 I've heard the belief that humans add a value to AII think 571 00:35:26,720 --> 00:35:29,440 there are things where AI is excellent, There are things 572 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,120 where AI is horrible. So for instance, when when I use 573 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:39,600 the the bottom on the KG website, then then the links are 574 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:43,800 correct. When, when I ask ChatGPT to 575 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:50,840 generate a list of links to some research of co.com, then there's 576 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:55,800 a bit of a tendency of ChatGPT to hallucinate and coming up 577 00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:59,040 with links where I would say, hey, these are great research 578 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:00,280 topics. We should do that. 579 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:06,960 But all of them lead to an four O 4 message not found. 580 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:12,920 So I think I think I, I, I would be careful with with studies 581 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,040 which say that the AI is always the best. 582 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:19,120 I think a well trained AI in, in medicine definitely provides a, 583 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:25,640 a huge value. And, and so I think there, there 584 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:31,040 are really use cases where, where, where it's super, super 585 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:36,520 powerful to, to just bring up an anecdote and that everyone may 586 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:39,520 like that anecdote or the theme of the anecdote. 587 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:47,440 But I, I am, I'm in an age where you have to do a colonoscopy. 588 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:51,080 I think it's the term every couple of years. 589 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:54,400 Some of you may have undergone that already. 590 00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:58,480 And, and I did this, this time being awake. 591 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,800 So there was this huge monitor, there was the doctor that was me 592 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:09,440 and I could visit it and I could then see situations where the AI 593 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,120 hinted on something. So there was nothing severe or 594 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:14,880 anything by that, but the AI hinted on something which the 595 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:19,240 doctor didn't spot. And so AI done right in medicine 596 00:37:19,240 --> 00:37:23,360 is, is super powerful thing. And I found it by the way, I 597 00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:26,080 found it super, super interesting to do to do this 598 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:29,960 awake because it, it's really, really interesting, I believe, 599 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:32,760 but not everything likes the the, the sort of doing 600 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:38,920 colonoscopy being awake anyway, I think that there there's a 601 00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:42,760 huge value, but we also know, I think everyone of us using AI 602 00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:45,160 knows that sometimes results are better, sometimes they are 603 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:52,520 worse. So, but I, I, I think if, if we, 604 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:55,520 we, we should learn to, to make the right use of it. 605 00:37:56,840 --> 00:38:03,080 I think this is the, this is the point if, if a good doctor will 606 00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:10,240 understand where it delivers value and where he or she still 607 00:38:10,240 --> 00:38:12,480 is needed with, with the other knowledge. 608 00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,320 And the other thing is creating something new. 609 00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:20,600 Thinking beyond this is or is not really the domain of 610 00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:22,560 something that relies on existing data. 611 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:28,080 So it's refactoring, combining, lesser than inventing. 612 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:32,920 It can't help in inventing, it cannot help in creating things. 613 00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:37,360 But it I think they're still plated for for humans. 614 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:44,680 Yeah, I I kind of feel like AI, if you give it enough 615 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:49,520 information, it can learn the information and kind of have 616 00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:54,600 rate values and rate answers better than a human can, just 617 00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:58,880 like a calculator can perform better than any human when it 618 00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:01,040 comes to doing mathematical equations. 619 00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:08,240 I also think so I, I thought about the Martin the chat bot 620 00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:12,480 and number one, it's available 24 hours a day, right? 621 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:15,800 So your clients can get in there and they can answer questions 24 622 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:17,960 hours a day. But I was interested to see 623 00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:22,680 whether you would say that the chat bot could replace the 624 00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:26,960 analysts in those terms in terms of answering questions for your 625 00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:31,040 customers or if you thought because I I think when it comes. 626 00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:35,240 To I think. It's research level, yes, I 627 00:39:35,240 --> 00:39:37,760 think that is what where it's really about deep interaction 628 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:43,560 workshop really where it's about generating new ideas very, very 629 00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:45,400 rapidly. Like I do for instance, when we 630 00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:48,480 do, we do when we run advisory workshops etcetera. 631 00:39:48,720 --> 00:39:55,200 Then it's, then it's really that I think it's, it's a, it's for a 632 00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:59,480 lot of standard questions, wonderful and even complex 633 00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:02,640 standard questions. But really there's a point where 634 00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:06,040 where the human interaction, the conversation, the, the, the 635 00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:12,400 thinking also adds to the So I, I don't see that I, I will be 636 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:14,840 replaced. I, I think it's great not to 637 00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:20,760 that there's something which does a lot of work, but there's 638 00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:24,320 also an area where I believe it's relatively difficult to 639 00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:30,720 replace a smart analyst. Hopefully I'm smart and and so, 640 00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:32,880 so, so I think that's at the end. 641 00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:38,360 As of that, I think it's about using it the right way. 642 00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:43,200 Yeah. So I wanted to switch topics a 643 00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:46,480 little bit because around the same time, November time frame, 644 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:50,000 you guys released the Leadership Compass for Access Governance. 645 00:40:50,240 --> 00:40:53,840 You released Leadership Compasses throughout the year, 646 00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:58,080 but specifically Access Governance, which is more or 647 00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:03,000 less like what some folks call identity governance, but, you 648 00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:07,040 know, doing recertification of access that's already been 649 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:11,640 provisioned. This is a market that has been 650 00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:16,160 in existence for a long time. Is there anything exciting here? 651 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:21,040 You know, I think the the perspective on what, what 652 00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,600 someone perceives as exciting, they are, they're very 653 00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:31,280 different. So clearly probably exciting is 654 00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:34,200 a big term here. So it's basically what we did. 655 00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:36,320 We released on leadership commerce, on IGA identity 656 00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:38,960 governance and administration. Then we released another one on 657 00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:42,680 IHED identity and access governance, which is basically a 658 00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:46,880 subset of the broader IGA field. And we just did a separate one 659 00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:50,400 because we still see in the market demand by a lot of 660 00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:54,600 organizations for, for specialized IHE solution. 661 00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:57,840 Basically we we see even the demand for two types of IG. 662 00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:02,280 So uses the general purpose IG so to speak that are more on the 663 00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:08,760 IGA side of things serving sort of every type of application to 664 00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:12,240 a certain level, providing role management, recertification also 665 00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:16,240 usually some level of access request and approval, stuff like 666 00:42:16,240 --> 00:42:18,360 that, auditing, analytics, blah, blah, blah. 667 00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:21,960 And then we have the the other specialized form which really 668 00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:26,840 focuses on the the ERP, the line of business applications. 669 00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:31,160 So the stuff which is frequently called Application Access risk 670 00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:35,920 management or whatever the ARMARA A/C application access 671 00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:38,400 control application. Talking like SAPGRC. 672 00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:41,840 Something like SAP Access Control which is commonly 673 00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:46,080 referred to as SAPGRC, but isn't named SAPGRC. 674 00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:53,320 But yes, totally correct. So, so this is, this is really 675 00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:56,640 funny in some, some way because this product, the name changed 676 00:42:56,880 --> 00:43:00,520 many years ago, but I, I would say it's still the, the vast 677 00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:04,640 majority calls it SAPGRC and that SAP access control. 678 00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:08,200 And then by the way, SAP has another second product in this 679 00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:12,080 domain as well as the cloud IAG cloud identity access 680 00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:17,400 governance, which is the sort of the the, the, the the pure 681 00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:25,080 product to SAP access controller TRC covering it different 682 00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:28,480 systems at a bit in a bit of a different form. 683 00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:31,440 So for free coverage, you would probably need pose. 684 00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:35,640 So we have we have this need for specialised solutions still. 685 00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:38,840 And that is the reason why we did the leadership combust that 686 00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:43,840 for instance, companies that have an A legacy or let's say 687 00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:47,240 long established to avoid this actually term legacy. 688 00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:54,200 A mature identity provisioning solution blaze for for many 689 00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:58,560 years a day may may see the need for quickly adding some more 690 00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:00,840 access governance capabilities, for instance for regulatory 691 00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:05,680 compliance for that type of organizations that there's a 692 00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:08,000 need for specialized IH solutions. 693 00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:14,840 Yeah, I, I've seen a lot of the new vendors in the space focus 694 00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:20,560 on I AG or access governance, identity governance as a kind of 695 00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:25,760 stepping stone toward becoming a full-fledged IGA solution. 696 00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:28,320 I think that's what we're going at. 697 00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:32,640 But they tend to have some kind of specialized focus on 698 00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:37,520 governance. So it's the use of AI or the 699 00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:41,000 ability to drill down and say who has access to what data 700 00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:43,720 elements. It is something different than 701 00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:46,240 just, you know, roles, entitlements there. 702 00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:54,120 The other end of the spectrum is large identity vendors or large 703 00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:57,920 vendors that have an identity product that are saying, oh, 704 00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:02,680 that's a gap in our solution. Now we need to do IGA and, and 705 00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:08,960 from what I've seen, mostly they provide governance over what's 706 00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:11,720 in their data store, what's in their directory. 707 00:45:12,240 --> 00:45:15,760 So I think of Okta, I think of Microsoft. 708 00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:20,440 I'm actually wondering what your your view is on how much 709 00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:22,640 progress Microsoft has made in this area. 710 00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:26,520 You know, to the extent that you know, where are they heading and 711 00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:28,120 how far are they into that journey. 712 00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:31,280 Yeah. So I think we we must not 713 00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:34,000 underestimate Microsoft's never a good idea. 714 00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:43,120 I think history tells that Microsoft is sort of is enduring 715 00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:47,680 also in what they are doing. So they they have have a long 716 00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:50,680 term stretch in identity and security is a very important 717 00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:53,000 field of business nowadays for Microsoft. 718 00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:56,880 When you look at the entry suite of products, the PureView 719 00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:00,680 products, etcetera, it's, it's really I think about 40 plus 720 00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:04,080 products they have in the identity and security space that 721 00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:07,200 also contribute quite significantly to Microsoft 722 00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:09,480 revenue. And Microsoft has a ton of 723 00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:12,760 developers working on these products. 724 00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:17,680 So they're working on that. I think we, we, we should be 725 00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:22,760 just clear that Microsoft As for as some of the other large 726 00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:29,200 vendors don't have the strategy of deep integration with a lot 727 00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:33,720 of proprietary other solutions. So they they usually rely on 728 00:46:33,720 --> 00:46:38,400 standards or partners, external parties doing the deep 729 00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:43,600 integration with some exceptions, which I think is 730 00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:45,840 fair. And I think which leads also to 731 00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:51,960 to solutions that might be very, very capable for certain types 732 00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:54,600 of organizations, certain types of sizes or organizations, 733 00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:59,480 certain types of complexity, but also leaves room for others for 734 00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:03,760 specialists that provide more capabilities, more depths, 735 00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:08,800 etcetera. So when when I look at most of 736 00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:13,240 the the end user organizations, I talked with them, many of 737 00:47:13,240 --> 00:47:17,400 these have Microsoft or Google or someone else in in place from 738 00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:23,840 the very large sort of IT vendor software vendors, but usually 739 00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:27,280 complement this in certain defined areas with other 740 00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:30,680 solutions, especially when when these are larger organizations 741 00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:34,240 than this is very common. I think this this also fits very 742 00:47:34,240 --> 00:47:37,080 well. So we were just yesterday, so 743 00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:42,840 given the time of the recording, so just mid January, we we 744 00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:50,880 released our newest version of our identity fabric and of our 745 00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:55,560 AM reference architecture. And I think these are paradigms 746 00:47:55,560 --> 00:48:00,200 and approaches that clearly show how that you usually will have 747 00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:04,920 more than one component and that orchestration that integrates a 748 00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:07,280 key element. So also for our upcoming 749 00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:10,600 leadership composite identity fabrics, which will be published 750 00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:14,800 around EIC, I'm currently working on that identity 751 00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:21,080 orchestration gets a much higher value because at the end of the 752 00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:24,920 day, even while you when, when you say some say this is 753 00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:28,040 whatever my preferred vendor, you usually will have other 754 00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:30,760 components from the past or to fill gaps. 755 00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:35,320 And then orchestration is a very essential capability to bring 756 00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:36,840 all these bits and pieces together. 757 00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:39,480 Also sometimes to have fall back solution. 758 00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:43,880 So So what happens if your your primary IDP goes down for a 759 00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:46,160 while? Or if you need to move away from 760 00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:49,120 your primary IDP? You have your fall back that at 761 00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:55,240 least helps your your critical applications running. 762 00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:59,040 Yeah. I mean, that's the basic pillar 763 00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:02,760 of business continuity, right? Is that question everything? 764 00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:07,280 So you mentioned there that you have a piece coming out. 765 00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:10,640 If you provide us a link, we can put it in the show notes. 766 00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:14,720 Mark, you've been super generous with your time. 767 00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:17,360 I did have one other question which I was going to ask 768 00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:19,400 broadly, but I'm going to narrow it down. 769 00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:24,800 And so we're sitting here January 20th, look ahead to 770 00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:27,040 2025. But I'm only going to ask you to 771 00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:31,040 pick out like one thing to really focus on what is one of 772 00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:37,400 the the hallmarks of 2025, that in 2026, we're going to say 2025 773 00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:40,560 was the year of you fill in the blank. 774 00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:44,840 OK. What is the hottest theme? 775 00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:52,320 I think very visible non human identity management, a lot of 776 00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:55,960 stuff going on there. So you could argue that also 777 00:49:55,960 --> 00:50:02,880 came up in 2024 already. I will think we'll see more more 778 00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:05,400 around policy based access. We'll see. 779 00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:09,880 This is maybe the 2026 decent resident when all the wallets, 780 00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:14,160 the EU, the initial identity wallets come out. 781 00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:21,480 So a couple of scenes there. So is that there anything 782 00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:26,280 totally entirely new? I, I think what we, what we see 783 00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:29,640 maybe from the things we don't have on the radar that much yet, 784 00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:31,280 that is something we already touched. 785 00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:35,040 I think we will see a ton of innovation when it comes to 786 00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:41,040 natural language interfaces for existing types of applications. 787 00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:44,560 Also an identity management and cybersecurity etcetera. 788 00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:50,000 Where we have these are separate solutions or layers on top that 789 00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:57,200 allow us to to, to simplify a lot of tasks by just saying, oh, 790 00:50:57,200 --> 00:51:01,200 I need access to that. And that's searching for which 791 00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:03,360 roles and entitlements do I need. 792 00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:05,800 This is my task. I want to do the task, give me 793 00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:10,720 the access. And then the system asks the 794 00:51:10,720 --> 00:51:14,080 manager, oh, is this already something Martin should be 795 00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:18,040 allowed to do? Oh, only until only for the next 796 00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:20,440 three months. He's just a temporary 797 00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:24,360 replacement done that. That will be, I think probably 798 00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:26,320 of the things we, we don't have to measure. 799 00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:31,120 The radar will be one of the, the areas that will be big in 800 00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:37,920 2025 beyond the, the stuff we, we, we commonly have on our 801 00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:40,880 radar already, which also, by the way, will raise some 802 00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:52,520 interesting questions like least privilege for AI or for Atlantic 803 00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:55,560 AI. So and and that will be 804 00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:58,640 something which is, which is very interesting because it 805 00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:04,240 depends on in which context is the ancient working for which 806 00:52:04,240 --> 00:52:06,840 purpose. There are a lot of elements 807 00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:11,000 which will make this way more dynamic, I would say. 808 00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:19,560 So what is the least privilege needed to answer a question in a 809 00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:23,520 rightful manner for Martin? I think no one's thought about 810 00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:27,440 this before, at least as I I didn't, but I think this will be 811 00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:30,040 a a really interesting area for Iami. 812 00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:34,960 Didn't think about it in terms of least privilege for AI, but 813 00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:39,160 I've been really focused on, OK, well, how do you secure the AI? 814 00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:44,080 So you're the CEO, somebody else's an analyst in your 815 00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:48,240 company, Do they have access to the same data today? 816 00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:52,000 No. With AI or how will AI determine 817 00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:57,240 what data Martin can access or or if your employees? 818 00:52:58,480 --> 00:52:59,800 Yeah, that's that's the one thing. 819 00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:04,000 And the the other thing is how do we ensure, you know, if we 820 00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:11,720 haven't, if you have a chanting AI that is work that is used by 821 00:53:11,720 --> 00:53:18,160 a lot of people, how do we ensure that we don't have super 822 00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:22,800 users there which are way too powerful. 823 00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:31,680 So how do we do ensure that this all is kept under control? 824 00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:34,720 I think this entire field, I tend to call it a identity. 825 00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:40,200 So the intersection of AI and identity is still a pretty much 826 00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:45,840 a wide space on our technology map. 827 00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:51,400 We see a lot of start-ups around AI security nowadays, but I 828 00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:54,160 think we need start-ups around a identity. 829 00:53:56,200 --> 00:54:01,840 It seems to me that the technology, the functionality is 830 00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:04,280 going to blaze way past security. 831 00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:09,160 So it happened with cloud infrastructure I think, and I 832 00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:12,400 think it'll happen again. I think the fall back will be 833 00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:16,960 some sort of leveraging legacy permissions, which we already 834 00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:19,960 know are not good enough. I think that's maybe what you're 835 00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:21,920 referencing. You have these super users 836 00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:24,280 administrate system administrators. 837 00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:27,920 Does that mean the System Administrator can start using AI 838 00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:32,560 to find out all kinds of information about the company or 839 00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:34,680 information they they shouldn't have access to? 840 00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:42,160 Even think about someone having access to the AI. 841 00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:45,160 Which all, by the way, brings us back to the initial theme, 842 00:54:47,720 --> 00:54:51,560 identity verified identities. So is it really Martin using the 843 00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:54,120 AI? And what is the AI supposed to 844 00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:59,280 do in the context of Martin? And if it's not Martin or if 845 00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:03,400 someone is is using the AI in different contexts, there might 846 00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:07,280 be way more information that is to discuss or even if the AI is 847 00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:10,080 is sort of constrained in what it can do in the context of 848 00:55:10,640 --> 00:55:13,840 individual. I think this is a very 849 00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:17,520 interesting field to think about for 2025. 850 00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:22,440 Yeah, I was thinking the exact same thing of we started off the 851 00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:24,720 conversation with identity verification and now we're 852 00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:27,560 ending it essentially with identity verification. 853 00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:29,800 And we talked about AI in the middle and a bunch of other 854 00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:30,880 stuff. And I was thinking the exact 855 00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:36,760 same thing as, yeah, this, this, this contextual awareness, this 856 00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:40,160 identity awareness of who is making the request. 857 00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:42,800 Or maybe you know what is making the request because it could be 858 00:55:42,800 --> 00:55:45,960 a non human identity querying another non human identity. 859 00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:50,040 What are the rules for the different data sets that each 860 00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:54,280 can have access to and the types of queries it can makes and it 861 00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:55,440 work. We're back to identity 862 00:55:55,440 --> 00:55:57,720 verification is OK. Well, how do we make sure 863 00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:01,240 whoever's on the other side of the phone, the API, the text, 864 00:56:01,240 --> 00:56:06,120 whatever it is, is authenticated to do that transaction and the 865 00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:07,640 type of transaction you're trying to do? 866 00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:10,000 I was thinking the exact same thing, Martin, when we were 867 00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:13,720 talking. Why don't we go ahead and wrap 868 00:56:13,720 --> 00:56:16,200 up? Martin, you have a gesture time, 869 00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:18,320 but I do want to pick your brain for just a couple minutes. 870 00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:20,920 You started off mentioning Stuttgart. 871 00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:24,800 It is my first time to Germany other than the Frankfurt Airport 872 00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:27,400 on a way over to Chennai, India. So I'm not going to count that 873 00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:29,120 because I never left the airport. 874 00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:33,480 But if I'm going to Germany for the first time and I know I'm 875 00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:38,680 going to be in Berlin for a week, what is something that I 876 00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:42,280 have to do as a first timer in Berlin? 877 00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:47,520 And then from there, would you recommend I go South to like 878 00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:51,320 Munich or Stuttgart, you know, kind of go southwest or go north 879 00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:55,960 and sort of Oslo and Copenhagen or go West to like, you know, 880 00:56:55,960 --> 00:56:58,840 Brussels or Amsterdam or think something like that? 881 00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:00,520 Like what would be your recommendation? 882 00:57:01,120 --> 00:57:03,240 Yeah. So, so it depends a bit of 883 00:57:03,280 --> 00:57:07,440 whether you want to stay within in Germany or whether you want 884 00:57:07,440 --> 00:57:09,760 to do Europe in three days or something like that. 885 00:57:11,800 --> 00:57:14,400 I, I, I think that that, that is a, that is a big question. 886 00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:18,720 So I, I, I think all, many of the places you've mentioned take 887 00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:24,920 Paris way more to the South, Rome and all the other wonderful 888 00:57:24,920 --> 00:57:28,280 Italian towns, etcetera. They, they, they, they deserve 889 00:57:28,920 --> 00:57:32,960 more time. So, so I, I, I wouldn't try to 890 00:57:32,960 --> 00:57:37,040 squeeze in too much of that. I think when, when you're in 891 00:57:37,040 --> 00:57:40,360 Berlin and you say, OK, I stay within Germany. 892 00:57:43,160 --> 00:57:46,560 So I, I just, and then I think the first question was, so it's 893 00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:48,560 for trim. It's very clear trim needs to go 894 00:57:48,560 --> 00:57:54,440 South in Germany because trim is into good German food and the 895 00:57:54,480 --> 00:57:59,320 food on average is becomes better on average when you go 896 00:57:59,760 --> 00:58:03,000 Southwest and Germany. So probably I'll get some 897 00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:06,200 comments on that by people who live in other regions. 898 00:58:06,520 --> 00:58:09,200 But but basically I would say that that is the direction 899 00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:11,800 Southwest in tendency. You have a lot of good 900 00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:13,200 restaurants in other areas as well. 901 00:58:13,200 --> 00:58:15,880 But so that's the standard and generic food. 902 00:58:15,880 --> 00:58:19,880 So if you go to the local, the traditional local food, then I 903 00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:24,080 would say the Swabian food. So this area around that is 904 00:58:24,080 --> 00:58:30,040 probably best one. That's where I live, by the way. 905 00:58:31,160 --> 00:58:35,080 So if, if you're, if you're into landscape, then there are, there 906 00:58:35,080 --> 00:58:37,800 are plenty of nice places, but I think it's probably more that 907 00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:40,960 you say, OK, which towns are, are really beautiful to visit. 908 00:58:43,160 --> 00:58:46,520 The, the actually the, the typical touristic traditional 909 00:58:46,520 --> 00:58:48,680 towns, Heidelberg, Rotenberg, etcetera. 910 00:58:48,760 --> 00:58:50,480 If you like that, if you're up to that. 911 00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:55,840 As I said, I'm, I'm a fan of Stuttgart. 912 00:58:56,240 --> 00:58:58,920 It's full of hidden secrets, which makes it a bit more, more 913 00:58:58,920 --> 00:59:02,720 difficult for visitors. So there are some, some 914 00:59:02,720 --> 00:59:06,320 wonderful things, Mercedes museum, perfect museum, which 915 00:59:06,320 --> 00:59:09,120 are very visible. There's for instance, the the 916 00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:18,600 1st TV tower in that has been built out of concrete. 917 00:59:19,760 --> 00:59:24,040 So it's the frost worldwide in Stuttgart, it's not the tallest 918 00:59:24,040 --> 00:59:28,080 anymore, but it's the 1st and it ever will be the first. 919 00:59:30,120 --> 00:59:36,560 So things like that when you other towns, Hamburg is great. 920 00:59:38,280 --> 00:59:41,240 I, I learned to laugh during the pandemic when we were not 921 00:59:41,680 --> 00:59:43,640 weren't allowed to travel abroad. 922 00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:48,680 I learned to laugh some areas of the Baltic Sea, but that's 923 00:59:48,680 --> 00:59:54,200 probably more for when you want to do a bit of a longer vacation 924 00:59:55,520 --> 00:59:59,000 at the coast. There's this region which is 925 00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:02,280 called fishland ducks things very complicated. 926 01:00:03,040 --> 01:00:07,000 Basically it has has been three islands which converged over 927 01:00:07,000 --> 01:00:11,000 time due to floods, etcetera, which is a wonderful area. 928 01:00:12,320 --> 01:00:17,600 So, so really a lot of things to be Munich, yes, no doubt. 929 01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:22,800 Can be very interesting. So I think a lot of lot of 930 01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:26,360 interesting places and it really depends a bit on what what your 931 01:00:26,360 --> 01:00:29,080 preferences are, how much time you have, what you want to see 932 01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:33,240 and to you and and also the the ones listening to the podcast. 933 01:00:33,240 --> 01:00:38,480 If you want travel tips to Germany, which are biased, sure. 934 01:00:40,160 --> 01:00:46,160 I I admit that I'm biased and my bias goes a bit towards the card 935 01:00:46,760 --> 01:00:52,360 and some other towns, then I feel free to reach out to me. 936 01:00:52,920 --> 01:00:56,640 And that's a fact. If you go picture my, one of my 937 01:00:56,640 --> 01:00:58,720 absolute favorite towns is Paris. 938 01:01:00,520 --> 01:01:05,120 Martin Will EIC be back in Munich in the future? 939 01:01:05,640 --> 01:01:08,280 I have no clue. So I'm, I'm, I'm not in the 940 01:01:08,280 --> 01:01:10,280 organization team of the EIC anyway. 941 01:01:10,880 --> 01:01:16,880 So I don't know whether we will go back to Munich, really no 942 01:01:16,880 --> 01:01:21,640 clue about it. OK, Jeff, I guess my, my input, 943 01:01:21,640 --> 01:01:24,200 I've been to Germany a couple of times that I've been to 944 01:01:24,200 --> 01:01:26,760 Frankfurt. But one thing that stood out to 945 01:01:26,760 --> 01:01:32,640 me that I know I'm going to do is go to, I think I'm getting 946 01:01:32,640 --> 01:01:35,840 the term right, like a beer hall, you know, with the the 947 01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:41,480 raised tables and they bring out these big glasses of beer and 948 01:01:41,480 --> 01:01:45,560 it's a very German experience. There are beer halls in the US 949 01:01:45,840 --> 01:01:48,200 and some of them were very much like that. 950 01:01:48,680 --> 01:01:51,400 But I figure like if you get the real experience in Germany and 951 01:01:51,400 --> 01:01:54,840 then you go back to the US, you can compare and contrast. 952 01:01:56,120 --> 01:01:59,320 I, I, I, I have to admit, I think the last time I have been 953 01:01:59,320 --> 01:02:07,560 in a beer hall probably is about 15 to 18 years ago and the 954 01:02:07,560 --> 01:02:12,840 second last probably more than three decades or so. 955 01:02:13,320 --> 01:02:18,080 So I, I, I think they, they, they are, they are, you find 956 01:02:18,080 --> 01:02:22,480 them especially in the, some of the Bavarian areas where if the 957 01:02:22,480 --> 01:02:26,320 weather is good, always would prefer a beer garden or the beer 958 01:02:26,320 --> 01:02:29,080 hall. So when you're can go outside 959 01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:35,720 that, that's really cool. But they are they are probably a 960 01:02:35,720 --> 01:02:41,400 bit more Bavarian overall. You're giving me a lot to think 961 01:02:41,400 --> 01:02:46,000 about here. And you, you may more Americans 962 01:02:46,000 --> 01:02:47,080 there than Germans. That's. 963 01:02:47,920 --> 01:02:51,320 What I was wondering if it's more like a a tourist thing than 964 01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:55,640 a local thing. I think it started as a local 965 01:02:55,640 --> 01:02:59,440 thing, This phrase it has. Been taken over, but gotcha. 966 01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:03,280 OK, All right, why don't we go ahead and leave it for this 967 01:03:03,280 --> 01:03:04,360 week? But what we don't like. 968 01:03:04,360 --> 01:03:07,720 Anyone else in trouble here? Martin, you're always suggesting 969 01:03:07,720 --> 01:03:10,000 your time and really do appreciate you joining us. 970 01:03:10,000 --> 01:03:12,800 And again, thank you for the invite out to Berlin. 971 01:03:12,800 --> 01:03:15,400 We're looking forward to seeing in a couple months and finally 972 01:03:15,400 --> 01:03:17,800 give you a fist thump of gratitude for being on the show 973 01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:19,440 so many times and sharing your knowledge. 974 01:03:20,280 --> 01:03:22,960 It'll be an interesting year. I, you know, with between AI 975 01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:26,920 identity verification and everything in between and I'm, 976 01:03:27,680 --> 01:03:31,480 I'm, I'm continually excited by all the innovations that are 977 01:03:31,480 --> 01:03:33,760 still happening in the identity space. 978 01:03:34,160 --> 01:03:36,200 I think there's this idea. It's like, oh, well, we've been 979 01:03:36,200 --> 01:03:38,400 doing identity for so long. Like, you know, where does it go 980 01:03:38,400 --> 01:03:40,160 to next? There's always something new to 981 01:03:40,160 --> 01:03:42,800 learn, something's going to change, etcetera. 982 01:03:42,800 --> 01:03:46,080 So it keeps it fresh, which is, which is always what I enjoy 983 01:03:46,080 --> 01:03:48,280 about this industry. So thank you so much for sharing 984 01:03:48,280 --> 01:03:51,800 your thoughts with us. Thank you for inviting me and 985 01:03:51,880 --> 01:03:54,320 looking forward to finally meet you in person in Berlin. 986 01:03:55,600 --> 01:03:57,880 Oh, we, we will hope, hope to not disappoint, right, Jim? 987 01:04:00,280 --> 01:04:02,240 Let's go ahead and wrap it there. 988 01:04:02,240 --> 01:04:04,520 Thank you so much everyone for watching and, or listening. 989 01:04:04,760 --> 01:04:07,280 We'll have links in our show notes for discount code for EIC 990 01:04:07,280 --> 01:04:09,920 as well as connecting with Martin on LinkedIn. 991 01:04:09,920 --> 01:04:13,560 You can share your thoughts about the, the, the, the current 992 01:04:13,560 --> 01:04:16,480 state of beer halls or beer gardens or anything else I'm 993 01:04:16,480 --> 01:04:18,400 sure that that Martin has talked about today. 994 01:04:18,800 --> 01:04:21,520 And you can find us on the web, idacpodcast.com. 995 01:04:21,680 --> 01:04:25,720 And yeah, so thanks for watching and or listening and we'll talk 996 01:04:25,720 --> 01:04:27,480 with you all in the next one. Thank you. 997 01:04:27,640 --> 01:04:31,560 Bye. You've been listening to 998 01:04:31,560 --> 01:04:35,440 Identity at the Center. We hope you've enjoyed the show. 999 01:04:35,640 --> 01:04:39,760 Make sure to like, rate and review, and we'll be back soon. 1000 01:04:40,040 --> 01:04:42,280 But in the meantime, hit the website at 1001 01:04:42,280 --> 01:04:48,680 identity@thecenter.com. See you next time on Identity at 1002 01:04:48,680 --> 01:04:49,560 the Center.