1 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:08,440 Hello and welcome to Specialty Much Podcast. 2 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:11,440 My name is Ryan and Michael Hozong Jun is currently running 3 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:14,680 around our different supplier partners as we bring our matcha 4 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:16,720 mill to life. So unfortunately he was not able 5 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:19,160 to join. He he tried to, but he's pretty 6 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:22,280 much in the middle of nowhere at the moment at a over planned 7 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:25,280 meeting that went on way longer than we both expected. 8 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:28,560 But our packaging for the mill is almost ready, which is very 9 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:30,840 exciting. But we're pleased today to have 10 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:34,440 Lorelaa from Wonderlust Teas, who's based in Brussels, 11 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:36,720 Belgium. It has tons of experience with 12 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:41,280 the tea scene, not only within Brussels, but within Europe as a 13 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:44,080 whole. So so happy to have you here and 14 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:47,000 would love if you could tell us a little bit more about your 15 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:50,720 personal background, your tea journey and Wonderlust Teas. 16 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:54,200 Yes, thank you so much, Ryan for this nice introduction. 17 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:59,840 So I started I think with tea around 15 years ago to try to to 18 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:02,240 taste. And I started actually because I 19 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:05,319 was living in Italy and I didn't like coffee and it don't still 20 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:09,040 don't like espresso. So I wanted to find the product. 21 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:13,160 And when you start with tea, you generally how it happens that 22 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:15,640 you start with the best, like worst quality. 23 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:19,360 And then step by step, if you have a little bit of research 24 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:23,120 and willing to explore from the taste perspective, I just fell 25 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:28,520 into a rabbit hole of all tea. So now after seven years that I 26 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:32,600 decided actually to dedicate my career to tea and more in the 27 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:35,760 speciality tea world. So like by speciality tea, I 28 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:39,720 mean more sleeve teas, a little bit less on the bag, more 29 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:44,000 authentic profiles, not flavor. I actually have more than I 30 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:48,040 think 600 or 1000 teas here. So it's a sort of a big 31 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:51,320 collection of tea. And then I started also another 32 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:53,080 addiction that actually is ceramics. 33 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:56,520 So yeah, we are here so surrounded and submerged like 34 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:59,840 tea and ceramics. So very interesting to say that 35 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:03,320 I wanted to actually before starting Wanderous Tea that is 36 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:06,800 service consultancy for especially for tea businesses 37 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:11,520 in, in Europe, helping you understanding the market, seeing 38 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:14,240 what are the potential of development on the sales 39 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:16,320 perspective of your, of the teas. 40 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:21,200 I actually worked into, I wanted to build like a subscription 41 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:26,000 with three teas, the same kind of teas that are coming from 42 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:29,080 different regions. They actually let people explore 43 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:32,520 the the tasters. So like I was having this 44 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:35,320 impression that you can still feel the difference between 45 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:38,000 essentia that is produced in Kagoshima and essentia that is 46 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:41,600 produced, for instance, in Chizuaka or by a certain master. 47 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:44,400 So my intention at the beginning was to actually have this kind 48 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:46,680 of subscription. And it was actually during the 49 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:49,880 COVID period that I started my entrepreneurial journey. 50 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:54,280 I mean, I really reflected onto it properly and say, OK, I want 51 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:58,400 to build something and then I actually carry out the the more 52 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:01,960 the financial outcome and it was not at all viable. 53 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:07,000 So I said, OK, what I can do. And I was working more like 54 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:11,680 management of non for profit. So management for non for profit 55 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:14,920 is very similar to actually a business, the handling of 56 00:03:14,920 --> 00:03:17,960 business. So I said to myself what I can 57 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:21,800 do, what kind of service is missing in the in the industry 58 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:26,960 that is not yet there and could help the brands to get to know 59 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:29,240 the products. So instead of like having 60 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:32,480 somebody creating another product that is has really a 61 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:37,320 lot, that has a lot of quality, what I can do to help actually 62 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:40,000 the system and the industry in a more larger sense. 63 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:44,520 So I came up with Wanderlust team five years ago, actually in 64 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:47,600 August, I created this. So it's really five years ago 65 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:53,640 and I created these services for businesses more on the medium or 66 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:59,520 micro enterprises that wanted to change the ecosystem and step by 67 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:03,360 step to actually improve the quality of the teas that were 68 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,680 offered that are offered to to the consumers. 69 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:10,760 And of course, like this is a big part helping them with the 70 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:14,920 market research, helping them if there is availability where are 71 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:19,480 actually the margin lying, how you can really create something 72 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:23,520 that has a lot of quality and still make a sustainable living 73 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,000 is not the easiest, the easiest market. 74 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:30,520 Actually, it's very difficult. We are a little bit more, let's 75 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:34,640 say incline now that the with the matcha boom is actually 76 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:38,920 starting more people to be passionate and discovering the T 77 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:42,760 world in a more deep way. Nevertheless, we are still a 78 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:46,840 little bit far away. So yeah, five years later I have 79 00:04:46,840 --> 00:04:50,640 to say that I well, in the meantime, actually starting 80 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:54,280 business is always difficult to make it live and profitable. 81 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:57,680 And with the Wanderlust tea, I'm not still there. 82 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:01,560 However, two years ago I decided to dedicate myself full time to 83 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:05,080 Wanderstea to see if there is a viability in the market. 84 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:08,960 And it's possible to be sustainable in a more long term 85 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:12,520 by offering consultancy service and brand ambassadorship. 86 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:17,320 And of course, a lot of market research about how the market 87 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:20,200 will be going. And it's actually what is the 88 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:23,760 future of the market. So here you are in August. 89 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:28,360 And one of the things that I really learn among the, let's 90 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:32,880 say, my entrepreneur journey is definitely like the lessons that 91 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:35,840 I received from different kind of people with whom I'm, I'm 92 00:05:35,840 --> 00:05:37,680 talked. And they actually, they, they 93 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:40,480 let me interview them about their journey. 94 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:45,560 And with the focus mostly on the more business side of, of, of 95 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:49,320 the, of the product. And not only to advertise the 96 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:54,480 say the the tea, but rather to make people understand who the 97 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:57,440 the the people that are actually creating the founders of this 98 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:01,280 brand, how are actually making it and how much passion they 99 00:06:01,280 --> 00:06:05,440 have to actually still stay in a business that is not at all 100 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:06,680 easy. That makes sense. 101 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:09,960 And it it's definitely a difficult business. 102 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:13,080 And even just the insider knowledge like where are the 103 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:15,920 margins? What are the margins like even I 104 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:18,200 feel like I'm still trying to figure that out. 105 00:06:18,840 --> 00:06:22,440 Like it's it's after talking to so many different matcha people 106 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:25,600 and some people, it's a really large actually, some people take 107 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:28,600 an enormous cut. And you also see some people 108 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:32,400 just adding on a little slice of margins, like, wow, like it's 109 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:34,560 very nice, but maybe you should charge more. 110 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:40,640 The problem that we have with with the with I say with with 111 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:44,600 the speciality industry and allow me to use the speciality 112 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:47,760 industry because there are many definition of it is that the 113 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:51,720 product that we are offering, they are very great. 114 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:55,560 Like they are very high quality. And the people that purchasing, 115 00:06:55,560 --> 00:07:00,080 they really don't understand why you're paying a product a 116 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:04,720 certain amount of money. And as well, they don't 117 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:07,520 understand tea. Even people that are in T BS 118 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:12,320 like in the T BS, they don't understand tea mostly like in a 119 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:16,960 in a more complete way, I think. And I don't claim to actually 120 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:19,320 understand it still. I'm still learning a lot. 121 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:22,320 And everybody that is in the tea business will tell you, yeah, 122 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:25,200 with tea you cannot not stop learning because there are so 123 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:27,080 many variables. That is impossible. 124 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:31,480 Too many rabbit holes, yeah. So I do believe that there is a 125 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:36,880 problem with what is the value that people attribute to tea 126 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:40,920 here in like in in Europe, but also in US like in all the 127 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:44,640 market except maybe for the Asian, like for China and Taiwan 128 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:48,800 and Japan where they actually is appreciated in this part like in 129 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:52,680 integrating part of the culture. However, here in Europe is not 130 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:56,480 integrating part in the culture. And if it is integrating part in 131 00:07:56,480 --> 00:08:00,480 the culture, like in the case of UK is not really really the 132 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:04,760 beautiful quality that we are expecting to drink is more about 133 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:10,400 a sort of, let's say historical and let's say commodity that has 134 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:14,360 almost nothing with the flavour profile that we are used to 135 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:17,320 drink like nerds tea people used to drink. 136 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:22,280 So yes, it's, it's really, it's a deconstruction of certain 137 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:26,680 assumptions to build up a new culture so that you you need to 138 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:29,760 do a double work basically. Yeah, that makes sense. 139 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:33,679 And maybe that's how much has been so successful because like 140 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:36,880 with loose leaf tea, there's so many variables. 141 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:39,840 You have to have the right tea where the right water, but much 142 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:42,679 it just like pretends to be coffee almost. 143 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:46,400 It's so substitutable and I think it's at least in my 144 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:48,480 observation, it's just exploded in Europe. 145 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:53,440 Like how, how have you seen like matcha positioning like I don't 146 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:56,520 want to say become so much more successful than specialty, the 147 00:08:56,560 --> 00:09:00,080 average specialty tea and loose leaf tea, but like what has 148 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:04,400 happened in its crazy growth compared to specialty tea within 149 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:07,040 Europe? Like how do you attribute that 150 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:09,480 success? Yeah, different, different kind 151 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:12,280 of factors. I think that the first one is 152 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:17,480 after have tried, I think that more than 100 matches in 153 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:21,360 different kind of speciality tea bars across all Europe, because 154 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:24,720 I travel a lot. So like from Amsterdam to 155 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:30,480 Belgium to to Paris to France, the South of France to Portugal 156 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:34,440 is catching up step by step. Italy as well is catching up. 157 00:09:34,560 --> 00:09:38,720 Quite interesting to see that is every in the more urban cities. 158 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:41,240 It's everywhere. Germany, I mean Germany, I think 159 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:44,480 that for a certain period of time, matcha was more served 160 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:47,040 than actually coffee in in Germany. 161 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:50,360 So you can realize actually what is the impact that they are 162 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:54,400 having Nordic countries. I think that what how much has 163 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:57,920 more than actually speciality team is first of all 164 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:02,480 customizable, second of all invites to a ritual. 165 00:10:02,560 --> 00:10:06,480 So like you are preparing it. Everybody's preparing whiskey by 166 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:09,200 hand. So like it's almost mesmerizing. 167 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:14,440 It's almost like taking the time to that ritual that is bringing 168 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:18,640 you back to the moment which we are experiencing. 169 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:22,480 I think after the COVID crisis, everybody is like going more in 170 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:25,800 the Wellness era. So people maybe Start Stop to 171 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:29,840 drink people they started to drink to to eat more cleaner. 172 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:33,760 You have this kind of protein programs, protein bars, 173 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:37,040 collagen, all the kind of supplements, and I think that 174 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:40,160 much are really fitted this kind of dynamic in this kind of 175 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:42,600 history. So they place it in a more, 176 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:47,400 well, less position like taking care of yourself pack and then 177 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:51,480 placing in that kind of dimension is actually they they 178 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:56,920 unify with the possibility to actually enjoy it after a run, 179 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:01,880 after a Pilates class, after, I don't know, just to pick up your 180 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:04,760 energy, but not having the spikes that you have with 181 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:06,920 coffee. And most of the people that 182 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:09,440 drink coffee, like most of the people drink much. 183 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:11,760 They don't really drink like pure coffee. 184 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:14,560 Like you have one person or two that order. 185 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:18,880 I think if you put in a scale of 10, one person to the door, 186 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:22,760 they're like a black coffee coffee and the rest is just what 187 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:24,960 you like is actually the milk that you're adding to the 188 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:28,120 coffee, the creation. And the same with matcha doesn't 189 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:30,160 really doesn't really change a lot. 190 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:34,120 There are a few people that that want to experience matcha pure 191 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:37,480 and most of the cafes that you try, they will not even put it 192 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:39,720 on the menu. Some of them they will put it on 193 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:44,360 the menu like the possibility to try just pure matcha, but most 194 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:47,760 of them they will not just even bother to put it on the menu. 195 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:51,320 You have the possibility to customizing with everything. 196 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:55,480 Basically you put now is like more creative You are. 197 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:59,880 It is you have a banana caramel iced matcha latte. 198 00:11:59,880 --> 00:12:04,200 You have matcha cloud like mixing with matcha with cream 199 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:06,840 cheese and with milk to create this kind of cloud. 200 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:10,280 And then you have like the coconut water and then like you 201 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:12,600 can you cannot even feel the matcha. 202 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:14,960 It's actually almost like like culinary ingredients. 203 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:17,840 And now like, let's not talk about the fact that matcha is 204 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:21,560 used in every kind of like patisserie like you have now we 205 00:12:21,560 --> 00:12:25,080 have pancakes with matcha, like the matcha milk, milk ferry. 206 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:29,240 So like the the real like the sort of the dessert that you are 207 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:32,640 eating all the time, Matcha cookies, matcha crepe. 208 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:35,920 There is one example, for instance, in in Amsterdam, they 209 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:39,800 are doing that is called aroma. They are doing crepes like creme 210 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:42,480 brulee, like crepes with a matcha the experience. 211 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:45,400 So, yeah, so it's like you have the possibility to actually have 212 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:50,120 a crepe with matcha and then top it off with some caramel like a 213 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:55,560 cream, like creme brulee type of trap that is actually rotated 214 00:12:55,560 --> 00:12:58,680 like a sort of a kebab and you just eat it with Yeah. 215 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:02,480 So like what is the beauty I think about matcha and why is 216 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:05,560 fitting so much? The actual culture is because 217 00:13:05,560 --> 00:13:10,000 it's so versatile, so customizable and as well it 218 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:14,520 gives the illusion of a Wellness in the sense that if you drink 219 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:16,640 matcha, you have more focus. True. 220 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:21,080 But if you drink matcha latte, I think that your focus is not so 221 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:24,200 focused in the like it's not so alert. 222 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:27,080 I mean most of the marketing claims that you have and most of 223 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:30,800 the Wellness claims that you have on matcha is actually they 224 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:34,920 are actually consider if you take the ingredient pure and 225 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:38,240 you're just not mixing with milk or with other ingredients, but 226 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:43,680 just morning routine matcha with just 70° water and the right 227 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:46,040 proportions which are very important. 228 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:48,720 And of course the freshness, because that is one other 229 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:50,880 factor. Yeah, it makes sense. 230 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:53,240 That's interesting. The point around 231 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:57,040 customizability, I had never thought about that, but you can 232 00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:01,360 like how would you customize like sencha that needs to be 233 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:05,480 brewed like there's probably all the realm of like normal 234 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:10,080 possibilities are feel so much lower than with matcha. 235 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:15,560 I don't think that is lower. It's just the way matcha is like 236 00:14:15,560 --> 00:14:18,960 adding that kind of bright color and green color that gives the 237 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:20,680 impression of illusion of health. 238 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:23,160 I think that's the the big factor as well. 239 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:26,960 The color is very important of because it's visually attracting 240 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:31,960 and it's also one of the reason why is is happening like this 241 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:35,920 kind of boom on social media because the fact that the color 242 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:40,760 is such a visual attractive that is more than actually the taste. 243 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:45,600 Then you package up as antioxidants, green focus 244 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:49,280 alertness energy, which are which is actually happening when 245 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:53,440 you drink pure matcha and then you have an amazing possibility 246 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:55,920 to actually scale it and to make it viral. 247 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:59,840 The same is happening with Uber, which doesn't is not a tea, but 248 00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:03,240 is entering the same kind of category of speciality coffee. 249 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:09,320 And let's not also forget that the fact that you are drinking 250 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:13,120 something that is so appealing in a green colour with the 251 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:16,640 possibility to actually create layers, you know, that's kind of 252 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:19,560 giving the possibility to another exploration. 253 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:25,800 And that's maybe when Sanchez or even other type of teas, oolongs 254 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:31,440 cannot maybe have the same effect because from the visual 255 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:34,440 perspective, they just don't give the same satisfaction to 256 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:37,360 die. And if you would create, for 257 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:41,320 instance, A sencha cloud exactly. 258 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:44,080 So like you need the right consistency of the sencha and 259 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:48,080 then you top it off with some cream with, I don't know, black 260 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:51,720 tea, for instance, with, with made with cream cheese that is 261 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:54,920 also visually appearing. However, the colours they don't 262 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:57,080 give that kind of satisfaction that you have. 263 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:00,800 And that's, that's important because I've been, so I've 264 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:03,520 experienced with different matches and some of them in 265 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:05,280 Korea especially, they're not shaded. 266 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:10,160 And the colour is such a putting off argument every time that you 267 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:12,720 propose it. It's just a colour doesn't mean 268 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:15,440 that the quality is not good. Like the taste is really 269 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:18,120 interesting. And this may be better than 270 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:21,800 every, most of the matches that you try in the latter. 271 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:25,960 However, it's quite interesting to, to see that the colour is 272 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:31,120 just such an important factor. And that's why I don't think and 273 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:36,000 I wanted to believe in the powder tea business like oolong 274 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:39,560 powder, different kind of let's say black tea powders. 275 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:45,520 However, visually prospective, it might not be there to give 276 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:49,760 that kind of appealing as much is giving just because of the 277 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,160 colour basically. Yeah, especially for mass 278 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:54,720 market. It's people eat with their eyes 279 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:58,440 first, I guess is the the famous phrase and I think it really 280 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:01,080 rings true. But that's interesting. 281 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:05,240 Have you noticed big like preference differences between 282 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:08,359 European countries? Because we like at least as my 283 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:12,640 American mind likes to bucket Europe as one place and it's 284 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:16,319 incredibly diverse. So what inter country or even 285 00:17:16,319 --> 00:17:19,480 inter regional differences have you seen in matcha and in 286 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:21,480 specialty T more generally? Yeah. 287 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:24,160 So I think that's that's a good, good point. 288 00:17:24,599 --> 00:17:29,280 Overall, I would say that it's almost the same except for 289 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:32,920 that's a that's a one thing that is the same is that most of the 290 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:36,480 brand, the most of the specialty places that I've visited, most 291 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:41,520 of the people offering matcha in let's say more upscale eateries, 292 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,560 they are offering ceremonial matcha, at least they claim is 293 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:49,080 ceremonial matcha. So like you already see that the 294 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:50,880 appealing to the customers is there. 295 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:53,360 So like they want ceremonial matches. 296 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:58,240 There are so-called influencers that actually are going to the 297 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:02,280 different kind of matcha bars or like places where they say 298 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:06,160 matcha and they do comparative tasting and they have maybe the 299 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:10,720 opportunity to actually just let's say influence so much the 300 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:15,000 public opinion that they cannot risk actually having a product 301 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:20,000 that is not in line with what is, what is the market offering. 302 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:23,680 So that's another particularity is actually that the matcha is 303 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:27,840 actually ceremonial. So the the important part is 304 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:32,240 that as well that you could technically drink it alone, like 305 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:35,160 without latte, because the quality is very good. 306 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:39,840 And if I compare it like all the cafes that I've tried in Europe, 307 00:18:40,360 --> 00:18:44,840 they are offering really good quality and is generally not, 308 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:47,480 not sweetened. So like ceremonial grade and not 309 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:51,760 sweetened while in other markets, like when I was in, in 310 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:55,640 Taiwan, but also some, some of the concussion that I tried from 311 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:59,600 US, they actually put sugar into already the matcha. 312 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:03,520 So like your drink is already sweetened and the colour is not, 313 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:07,200 is not there for the moment. So that's that's a point that 314 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:09,920 actually I can see across all the different kind of speciality 315 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:14,000 coffee, ceremonial. Another point of let's say 316 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:18,600 similar is that everybody's creating matcha bars. 317 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:23,440 So like the matcha bar is a place where you go and Tabor 318 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:26,040 your matcha so you have the possibility to customize it. 319 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:31,880 So this is across Amsterdam, across Germany, across Paris, 320 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:35,200 across Italy, across Switzerland and so on. 321 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:38,400 So like they are matcha bars. Some of them they are not 322 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,600 proposing only matcha. They have a small offer of 323 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:44,600 coffee, but some of them they actually proposing also tea. 324 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:47,040 So like kind of like matcha and tea bar. 325 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:52,280 So and one point that I can definitely notice as well is 326 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:57,080 that it doesn't stop to the customization into drinks like 327 00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:02,120 occasion coffee drinker, but goes into cocktails or 328 00:20:02,120 --> 00:20:04,360 mocktails. So like the matcha, the really 329 00:20:04,360 --> 00:20:08,880 span into the possibility of being a drink for occasion. 330 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:13,960 Across almost all the all the eateries on the speciality 331 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:18,440 coffee places that you that I have experienced so differences. 332 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:22,440 You have degree of sweetness, which is something that is very 333 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:25,720 important because every country has a different kind of, let's 334 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:28,360 say palette and is used to a certain flavours. 335 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:32,840 I think that in in Paris, but those in Belgium there is more 336 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:36,160 attention to the Craftsman of the drinks and the balance. 337 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:41,240 So like you can still feel the matcha other places that are 338 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:45,160 doing it a little bit more, let's say mainstream, you cannot 339 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,480 feel it. Or at least you, you cannot 340 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:53,440 really identify this matcha dude cannot identify the vegetable 341 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:55,920 taste of mummy. So it's a little bit more 342 00:20:55,920 --> 00:21:00,880 difficult also quality wise, despite the often ceremonial, 343 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:04,920 some of them is still not there. So it's good quality. 344 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:08,000 But nevertheless, you can see there is a difference into what 345 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:11,880 is offering in normal centers and in other like in other 346 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:16,160 places in in in the country. And I think that's almost it. 347 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:18,960 So like it's about. So there are not so many 348 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:23,800 differences actually, once you visit like the beauty is also of 349 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:27,520 globalization, let's call it the beauty is that all the places 350 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:30,280 are almost uniform. You go in bars. 351 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:34,960 So the latest Cafe is very similar to what you have in in 352 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:37,800 Hamburg. You go at the very similar to 353 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:42,120 have in Paris is the same minimalist clean aesthetic that 354 00:21:42,120 --> 00:21:46,080 you can find everywhere. So once you try say once you try 355 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:48,120 it, once you try it all, it's not true. 356 00:21:48,120 --> 00:21:51,880 Because for instance, some of the countries are more inclined 357 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,480 to witness. So they allow you to add protein 358 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:59,520 and collagen and also other scoops of matcha into the drink 359 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:02,480 to feel it more. So like there is an attention 360 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:06,440 more on the Wellness side. And then some other places. 361 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:09,760 They are just places where you can experience the Japanese 362 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:13,000 culture while some other places that you can see that is more a 363 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,760 multi brand Viber where you take your drink. 364 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:19,640 Maybe you stay there to wait for your drink, but then you leave 365 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:23,520 and you savor it outside. So most of the brands actually 366 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:26,600 are take away. It's not possible to consume it 367 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:31,840 in like on site except some of them that are a little bit more 368 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,040 upscale. So they created the space just 369 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:37,120 for this. But by default it's A to go 370 00:22:37,120 --> 00:22:39,080 drink. So like, it's a meal, tea drink 371 00:22:39,120 --> 00:22:41,560 basically. Yeah, interesting. 372 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:45,400 That's really interesting to. There's this sort of concept 373 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,680 that is floating around that matcha has almost transcended 374 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,120 tea that's kind of living its own life. 375 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:54,640 Like, do you feel that or because like everything that 376 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,760 you're saying, it feels like it it's living, It's, it's a 377 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:01,720 completely new subculture within tea, but people don't even view 378 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:03,880 it as tea. Actually in France, when I talk 379 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,560 to the average person, I don't think a lot of people realize 380 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:10,240 that one, it's tea. And like a lot of people, 381 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:13,400 shocking to me, considering how much French people care about 382 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:15,840 where their food comes from, they don't think of it as a 383 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,560 Japanese product. Like, is that true in your 384 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:20,920 experience? Like do people realize it's tea 385 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:25,680 or that it's even like sort of originally a Japanese product or 386 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:28,960 is it they care more about, I don't know, ceremonial grade or 387 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,280 or the health claims, the functional benefits? 388 00:23:32,360 --> 00:23:34,960 I'll start with the second part is actually about Japan. 389 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:38,600 Yes, definitely. I think the love like people 390 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,920 really care about Japan. That is a Japanese product. 391 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:45,800 OK. There is a stigma when you are 392 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,960 proposing a Chinese. Most of the brands that are 393 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:53,400 actually advocating that they have ceremony much they say much 394 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:57,480 of from Muji from Japan and sometimes they expressly 395 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,760 indicated on the doors in Hamburg for instance, this new 396 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:05,360 cafe, a new new macho bar where I was actually mentioning 100% 397 00:24:05,360 --> 00:24:09,800 coming from Muji Japan. So like the origin is coming 398 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:13,480 from Japan because now we are in a stage of the market with 399 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:17,200 everybody more or less knows that is coming from Japan and 400 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:19,920 everybody in love with Japanese culture. 401 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:25,520 They actually tried and they experienced much because you can 402 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:28,280 you you see that there is a surge of tourism. 403 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:32,160 I think that this last year alone there were 40,000,000 of 404 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:35,520 tourists in in Japan and there is a craze about Japanese 405 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,560 product and everything that is Japanese. 406 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:43,480 It's kind of view in a more like very flattering testing. 407 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:47,720 And as well matcha is part of it in this case of matcha because 408 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:52,480 matcha in Japan is consumed not so much as a latte. 409 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:56,080 So you can go in specialty coffee, but it's not the same 410 00:24:56,080 --> 00:25:00,600 kind of vibe that you have here. It's more about taking the time 411 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:06,000 ceremonial, so ritual part experience it pure and then 412 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:09,840 maybe try it in an alternative way, but doesn't start as a 413 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:15,040 default to actually have like the latte experience in in mind. 414 00:25:15,360 --> 00:25:20,680 It just matcha with in a bowl with a certain setting, maybe 415 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:23,120 with a ceremony with the wagashi. 416 00:25:23,120 --> 00:25:26,960 So like a sweet treat to accompany the say the vegetable, 417 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,640 the mummy flavour of the matcha. So that is a completely 418 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:33,560 different experience. So a lot of people are maybe 419 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:37,200 drawn as well when they come back from Japan, they really 420 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,320 want to experience the same kind of like feeling that they had in 421 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:45,000 matcha with matcha in Japan. And they go maybe for something 422 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:49,160 that is not a lot, but maybe a matcha tonic or just a simple 423 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,120 matcha with water if they serve it in a bowl. 424 00:25:52,360 --> 00:25:55,880 And they really love the ceremony part. 425 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,480 So like they are more interested in actually taking the moment 426 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,080 and preparing it at home as they they they want. 427 00:26:03,120 --> 00:26:06,240 So that is one part. Second of all, I think that eat 428 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:08,480 transcended tea. Yes, of course, like milk tea, 429 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,880 transcended milk tea, like like bubble tea, we call it bubble 430 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,120 tea is better because actually it's not milk. 431 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,760 I mean, it's milk, but you have the bubbles inside. 432 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:18,720 So people know a little bit more about it. 433 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:23,080 But yes, I don't think that a lot of people realise that much 434 00:26:23,120 --> 00:26:25,680 is tea. They just think that it's a 435 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,320 powder that is coming from a different plant that you 436 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,840 actually have a tea. And most of the people they 437 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:32,480 don't know that is coming residency. 438 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:39,040 So yes, I do believe that those that let's say those that are in 439 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:43,200 the in like they, they experience a lot of tea, don't 440 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:47,200 view matcha as the thing that to consume every day. 441 00:26:47,360 --> 00:26:52,760 Those that really come from an experience of like latte after 442 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:56,000 your matcha run. Because here in in Europe, like 443 00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,640 in Brussels, you have clubs, matcha run clubs. 444 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:04,200 Basically they they run together and then Sunday morning they get 445 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:05,880 their matches at the February spot. 446 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,680 And then the sport changes every time basically. 447 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,200 Like you see that is kind of part of Wellness. 448 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:15,080 Yeah, indeed. But this is not a tea community. 449 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,840 It's a matcha community and it's more a Wellness community. 450 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:23,000 So we are focused on the Wellness and on the well-being 451 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:27,000 that the matcha is having on your body after a run. 452 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:30,800 So to reply to your question, yes, definitely I think that is 453 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:34,240 not a tea product, is not considered a tea product by many 454 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:36,360 people. Many people don't know that the 455 00:27:36,360 --> 00:27:39,720 powder is actually green tea. Now there are more and more 456 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:43,440 people that are informing even if sometimes there are a little 457 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,640 bit controversial informations, but we don't care about it 458 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:50,040 because the base is there and that there are a lot of people 459 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,600 that know that is coming for a green tea that has been shaded. 460 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:58,200 And so to develop to the kind of green that we are expecting 461 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:00,840 having from the matcha. And how have you seen you, you 462 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,800 mentioned that it's important to more and more important to 463 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,440 consumers and businesses that it's a Japanese product. 464 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:10,720 But how have you seen like Korean or Chinese matcha or even 465 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:12,960 like Vietnamese? You you start to see these new 466 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:17,960 origins are producing countries, like how are they being received 467 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:22,400 and like what, what's how, how, what's the picture of that on 468 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,960 the ground in your experience? I think you need to already 469 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:29,920 differentiate between B to B&B to C, OK. 470 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:34,000 All the B to C brands are actually coming from Japan, most 471 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,920 of them. So like if you want to sell as a 472 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:41,960 private your own label, it's coming from Japan most of the 473 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,800 time from Moji. So like ceremonial grade and 474 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,440 premium grade. So like you have already the 475 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:50,760 origin is already settled. If you want to sell Japanese 476 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:55,040 like Chinese matcha, I think you can do it B to B, But a lot of 477 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,040 consumers still have a stigma against consuming Chinese 478 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:01,240 matcha. So like there will be more less 479 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:04,560 consumers actually having much Chinese matcha. 480 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:08,160 And if you want to build a business with let's say with 481 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:12,920 selling Chinese matcha and it's not B to B but B to C, it's a 482 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:16,880 little bit more difficult despite if you consider the 483 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:20,160 market, overall market and the volumes of the market. 484 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:22,640 Yes, most of this coming from from Japan. 485 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,240 But in reality, most the businesses that are now like 486 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:29,960 producing more volume are actually offering Chinese 487 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:33,960 matcha. So I think that that's quite an 488 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:38,280 interesting part that consumers don't really know if their 489 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:40,680 matcha is coming from, from China. 490 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:45,680 If they're, if I, I, I, I ask because most of the time I like 491 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:47,800 to ask where is the matcha is coming from? 492 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:50,920 And in the beginning, for instance, they were only like 493 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,560 Japanese matcha. But then my speciality coffee 494 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:58,880 place, they actually, I talked with them and, and most of the 495 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,840 speciality coffees that they have, like we take the matcha 496 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:04,760 from this, is it Japanese or Chinese is Chinese. 497 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:10,680 So almost almost all the cafes. So almost all the cafes that are 498 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:15,200 supplied by the leaders in the market, they're supplied to B to 499 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,600 B. They are choosing Chinese matcha 500 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:23,880 interest of the price point. And because is price point, but 501 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,360 also tasty. Some of the rest like culinary 502 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:28,960 matcha are really good as well in the Chinese. 503 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,560 If you want to use it for a cake, if you want to use it for 504 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,000 latte, it's perfectly fine actually to use a Chinese 505 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,360 matcha. Just that consumers wise will 506 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:41,640 never get that kind of, I don't know that kind of feeling of 507 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:45,320 consuming Chinese product, which is not correct. 508 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:49,800 But however, there is the stigma of of consuming Chinese project 509 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:55,960 and this idealisation of offering a Japanese product to 510 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:58,720 the consumers. OK, very interesting. 511 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:02,480 Have you seen more and more like I I don't have the right 512 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:06,840 vocabulary specialty matcha grow within Europe like people 513 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:10,800 offering single cultivars, different origins, like how have 514 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:12,320 you seen that? Because it's everywhere. 515 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,920 But typically you'll just see ceremonial as you said, maybe 516 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:17,200 Uji. Yeah. 517 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:20,520 Or actually most places it just has manja, but like where 518 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:22,880 there's more and more product distinctions within the 519 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,680 category. There are a couple of places 520 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:31,280 that they were there before the craze, I mean during the craze, 521 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:33,200 but it was a little bit more control. 522 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,880 So people were just discovering. There is one place that comes 523 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:40,680 into my mind where I did my my tasting that actually you can 524 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:44,000 taste the fourteen types of different matchas from different 525 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,760 cultivars and different process as well of shading. 526 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,320 Some of them they are shaded only two weeks, other three 527 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:52,960 weeks. Some of them they are really 528 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:55,960 suitable for lattes. Some of them they are blends 529 00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:58,880 cultivars, other they're just single cultivar. 530 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:03,440 For instance, one of the most impressive cultivar that I ever 531 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,680 tried is actually Uji Kari. So when I see this kind of 532 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:10,520 cultivar, I, I, I just purchase it because it's my taste and I 533 00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:13,400 could drink this every day without anything. 534 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,560 Even if I put something that will ruin the vacha, but it's 535 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:18,760 all. It costs around €60 per 30 536 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:20,480 grams. So you need to as well 537 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,240 understand what is behind actually having a single 538 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,200 cultivar. So there are places, but of 539 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,920 course it's just fun up until thousands that are free much. 540 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:33,840 So I would say yes, there is a distinction sometimes from 541 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,120 premium and ceremonial. And if you ask what is the 542 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:41,080 cultivar, they will tell you that is a bland or is, I don't 543 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:44,120 know, akumidori or semidori like a bland. 544 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:50,120 It's it's possible to ask is not even in Japanese coffee and 545 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:54,760 teahouses is not expressly mentioned if you are not asking. 546 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:58,880 So they will say our matcha is coming from Muji or from 547 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:04,040 Kagoshima or from however is actually not not really 548 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:08,520 advertised like it's more concentrated into the knowledge 549 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:12,640 and there is this is this the this much are coming from this 550 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:18,040 area has been, I don't know produced in 2026 has been left 551 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:21,320 the tension has been left maturated in autumn and then has 552 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,720 been milded and has been richer. Not this kind of details for the 553 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:29,920 moment is not there and I think that will never be there except 554 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:36,440 in speciality places. So if you go for instance in at 555 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:42,040 Ogata in Paris, you have the possibility to try different 556 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:44,840 kind of matches. You have also, for instance, 557 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:50,440 I've tried now a matcha yokuro that is coming from from Kaori. 558 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:55,360 She's has been importing tea and spices from from Japan since a 559 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:57,920 long time. She was one of the first one 560 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:02,240 getting into speciality tea and also convincing restaurants to 561 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:07,240 adopt A better quality of tea. And she has amazing matcha and 562 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,360 it's just it just a great quality. 563 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:15,960 However, where is sold in one or two niche supermarkets, some 564 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:19,600 Japanese festivals where there are crazy people like myself 565 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:22,159 that actually spend a lot of money on tea. 566 00:34:22,199 --> 00:34:26,239 But in general, like you have because people don't know about 567 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:30,639 the product and and most of the time now they are discovering 568 00:34:30,639 --> 00:34:32,440 more. But nevertheless like the 569 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:36,719 default setting is machalate. And now as well in Japanese 570 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,679 fairs you have people serving machalate. 571 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:41,920 That was not the case two years ago. 572 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:48,320 For instance, you had only like teas like yokuro, sencha and so 573 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:52,120 on and so forth, but possibility to drink and normal matcha with 574 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:54,159 the ceremony and that's that's it. 575 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:56,719 So you had not the possibility to really have lattes. 576 00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:00,720 Now actually all the fairs are offering as well lattes into 577 00:35:00,720 --> 00:35:05,080 their selection or matcha tonic, which I think that is a good way 578 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:07,880 to actually perceive the taste of matcha way much more than 579 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:12,680 latte and really suited well. But now like there is no limit 580 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:16,840 to the creativity of it. True, true. 581 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:20,760 So there's been like an explosion of new Matcha brands, 582 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:25,440 both new brands and brands from outside Europe wanting to enter 583 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:27,840 Europe. What are some like common 584 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:31,080 mistakes that you see when people are trying to get their 585 00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:33,440 brand established, you know, in this market? 586 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:37,840 There is no real differentiation like in the beginning what there 587 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:42,240 was, there was like there was one or two brands saying that 588 00:35:42,240 --> 00:35:44,560 claiming that your match is coming from MUJI, that you 589 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:48,440 source it directly, that you've been visiting the farms was a 590 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:52,760 unique selling point. Now is there is not such a thing 591 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:56,760 like everybody's claiming the same kind of virtues. 592 00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:01,320 Everybody is like putting pictures of their visit to the 593 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:06,240 to the tea factories and some of them they are also explaining 594 00:36:06,240 --> 00:36:10,840 that, but they are very few of them most of the time is female 595 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:13,720 narrative. So like they're female, went to 596 00:36:13,720 --> 00:36:17,440 Japan, they fell in love and they open a tea brand, they open 597 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,560 a match bar if they have the possibility and they have the 598 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:24,960 right affluence and there is a sort of beautification of the 599 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,840 brand, but it's a very pasting copy feeling. 600 00:36:29,720 --> 00:36:34,040 So they are not, I would say. What are the common mistakes? 601 00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:37,880 Is that what is your unique selling point now in the 602 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:39,320 saturated market? The Yeah. 603 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:41,960 Totally. The whole playbook will work. 604 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:43,760 Yeah. And indeed. 605 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,280 And then you have I think that as well another point is that 606 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:51,640 it's more a word on the type of brand and aesthetic than 607 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:56,960 actually on the product itself. Because yeah, you can have an 608 00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:01,680 amazing match and you can be on your can be have installed like 609 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:05,480 very great relationship with the producers from a long time ago. 610 00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:10,160 However, I mean, I'm, I'm always doubtful about the narrative 611 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:13,080 behind it. And also most of the products 612 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:15,840 that I've tried, and I tried many brands because I'm curious 613 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:19,640 about it and because I'm studying the market, you can 614 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:23,120 realise that they're almost all the same. 615 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:25,440 Some of them they really deficient themselves. 616 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:29,680 Like I have like Calorie, for instance, but also the brand 617 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:33,560 that I'm collaborating to the moment is actually offering 618 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:38,240 Kagoshima produce like Machaka Kagoshima produce in Kagoshima 619 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:41,880 and Miyazaki. And they have an amazing, let's 620 00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:45,040 say story. They already were part of a 621 00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:49,000 family of merchants of tea. They had like his Japanese, he 622 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:53,640 moved to to the Netherlands. So you he actually wanted to 623 00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:55,360 make much accessible for everybody. 624 00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:59,000 So like he's he's offering the ready Kagoshima Matra. 625 00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:03,280 It's a blender, but it's very accessible in comparison what 626 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:07,080 you find in the market where you pay more the packaging that 627 00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:08,960 actually the product that you are experiencing. 628 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:14,040 And some of the brands and I'm not nominating, they are putting 629 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:18,200 like wrong nutritional values because some of the brands they 630 00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:21,800 are advocating that there are a lot of calories into the matcha, 631 00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:24,720 which is not true actually. Well, matcha doesn't have any 632 00:38:24,720 --> 00:38:28,000 calories like tea and the nutritious facts are completely 633 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:30,200 wrong when it's a ceremonial matcha. 634 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:35,320 So like it's the problem is so it's a more a word on the brand, 635 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:38,840 which there's nothing wrong with it instead of really being a 636 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:43,920 word on the product which their consumers can really see the 637 00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:47,600 value in the long term. Of course, I would say if I had 638 00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:52,760 to create my own matcha brand today, I will not change the 639 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,880 pasting copy model because most of them they are sold out. 640 00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:01,400 If you have a good so how it's happening currently, you have a 641 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,320 good affluence base, maybe you're an influencer, maybe 642 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:07,720 you're a girl into Wellness and Pilates. 643 00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:12,520 You say, OK, I want to offer something to my consumer. 644 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,280 The matcha is actually offering a matcha is actually the 645 00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:21,960 quickest, easier way to sell tea and to sell lifestyle basically 646 00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:24,240 because it's not to read. The tea is more the lifestyle 647 00:39:24,240 --> 00:39:27,040 that comes along. And then you have you prepare 648 00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:31,960 it, you select it, you do some videos on like drinking it after 649 00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:36,520 Pilates and you sell it because you have the customer base via 650 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:39,880 social media. So this is like the default 651 00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,200 setting. And then you create your website 652 00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:46,840 with two products and that's it. Just the packaging is different. 653 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:49,560 However, some of them, of course, they have different 654 00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:53,080 products, but most of them I would say that the products 655 00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:56,000 don't surprise, don't really surprise me anymore. 656 00:39:56,080 --> 00:40:00,960 But of course, I'm picky. So as well, I tasted a lot and, 657 00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:04,120 and it's very difficult for me product to be surprising. 658 00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:08,240 There are some that I still appreciate that they put amazing 659 00:40:08,240 --> 00:40:11,640 quality and, and you can see the colour and you can really taste 660 00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:15,200 the matcha and you have that feeling of, of umami of your 661 00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:18,640 taste of energy that is rushing through your body. 662 00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:23,080 But they are very few. I have in mind 2 here in in 663 00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:27,080 Belgium and that's it. Well, I mean, they have a double 664 00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:29,640 problem because not only if they create a brand, but you have to 665 00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:34,200 find a good product and to find a good product from Japan that's 666 00:40:34,240 --> 00:40:37,680 EU compliant is very challenging. 667 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:39,640 That's for something that tastes good. 668 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:42,280 I don't think it's very challenging to be honest with 669 00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:44,760 you. I think that yes, the prices 670 00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:47,320 have risen because we have a problem with production. 671 00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:52,800 However, if I had to decide to open a match a brand, if I would 672 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:57,880 go to a wholesaler, not a producer directly. 673 00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:02,240 And even now producers are actually like people that are 674 00:41:02,240 --> 00:41:05,120 commercializing brands. They know that they need to 675 00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:08,760 secure it to the one year before the the quantities that they 676 00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,480 might need. But to be honest with you, I 677 00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:15,840 would, I would not have a lot of problem I think in if I had to 678 00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:18,240 create a brand in two weeks time. 679 00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:22,000 Now with the technology we have, I will have a match, a brand and 680 00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:25,720 my packaging would be ready. Yeah, that, that's a really good 681 00:41:25,720 --> 00:41:28,160 point actually, because my mind always thinks back straight to 682 00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:30,120 the producer. But you're so right. 683 00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:33,040 There's like these people in the middle, like these middle men, 684 00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:36,280 which everyone likes to hate, actually provide a ton of value. 685 00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:39,160 They've already laid out the cash, they have the inventory, 686 00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:42,360 they have the relationships, their packaging solutions like 687 00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:44,560 they're ready to go. They've solved the problem for 688 00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:47,520 you. So as well like you also need to 689 00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:51,400 understand that there are tests to be done for the products 690 00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:52,840 that. Yeah, totally. 691 00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:56,000 It's. Very expensive and so like 692 00:41:56,120 --> 00:42:00,520 having a middleman like a whole supply, a whole like whole 693 00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:04,360 supplier and importer that are ready to care of everything and 694 00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:09,120 you just need to say this is the packages that I want and they 695 00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:12,360 add on top of what you are requesting of the product. 696 00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:16,960 Also like the packaging. Honestly, it would not be a big 697 00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:19,480 problem. It would be a big problem if I 698 00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:24,720 have to offer like single cultivar, if I have to offer 699 00:42:24,720 --> 00:42:28,520 maybe matches that are very well known with some masters that 700 00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:30,960 they have really limited the quantities. 701 00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:35,600 If you really want to do it in a geeky way, it will be difficult. 702 00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:40,560 If you want to do it more, let's say you want to have a big like 703 00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:43,520 a cash flow, not a big one because still like there is a 704 00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:46,840 lot of margin, but nevertheless, like it's not impressed. 705 00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:49,880 Like it's not a lot. I think that it's if I would 706 00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:54,080 have a minimum of capital, yeah, in two weeks, I would be maybe 707 00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:57,680 3, let's say 3 weeks, I would be able to launch my brand. 708 00:42:57,760 --> 00:42:59,920 What do you think the consequences of that are? 709 00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:04,920 Because you see a flood of like it's easy to create a website. 710 00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:08,360 You plug in Shopify, they have three PL. services. 711 00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:12,320 You buy from a distributor that is the importer of record, takes 712 00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:16,360 care of all the paperwork like. So I think that I talked with 713 00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:19,400 somebody as well in the industry that actually is still committed 714 00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:22,680 to offering big quality like good qualities. 715 00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:26,240 But the problem is for good quality, much of the prices is 716 00:43:26,240 --> 00:43:30,000 really raising a lot. So if you already like have a 717 00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:33,600 big relationship with the producers and still the pricing 718 00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:37,760 has been rising a lot in the in the last three years, I think 719 00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:42,360 it's more than 70% or 100% in the right. 720 00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:45,280 So it's a lot for a small business or for somebody wanting 721 00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:47,520 to launch a brand. And I think one of the things 722 00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:50,640 that they he mentioned is actually there are many, many 723 00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:54,840 offers in the market, especially for Japanese and Chinese matcha 724 00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:57,160 they're offering with a lower price point. 725 00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:02,600 So let's say that you cannot really stay competitive on the 726 00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:07,200 price average. You see, I do you can because 727 00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:11,800 most of the so if you want to really have the B to B part, 728 00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:15,280 it's impossible to stay competitive in the long term 729 00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:19,240 with the with the clients that you are currently have because 730 00:44:19,240 --> 00:44:22,920 the cafe will never choose a product to pay to pay product 731 00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:27,000 really high price. If they have the possibility to 732 00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:31,000 choose a product that has a, a smaller price. 733 00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:35,000 And consumers, they still cannot take the difference about about 734 00:44:35,240 --> 00:44:38,000 what is different in this product instead of the other. 735 00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:41,360 So this is one problem that they can see a lot of people that 736 00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:45,280 were present into the market like T businesses collaborating 737 00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:47,320 B to B. So having as a client more 738 00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:50,920 businesses, we are having a difficult time because if you 739 00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:53,680 want to supply a quality product, so you need to pay the 740 00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:55,760 price. And now there are more way much 741 00:44:55,760 --> 00:45:00,560 more alternatives for cafes to actually choose from the quality 742 00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:03,280 of matter. And since nevertheless the end 743 00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:07,760 consumer is not going to really feel the difference because if 744 00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:12,240 they consume most in lattes, that's really not perceptible at 745 00:45:12,240 --> 00:45:14,280 all. And that's a problem that they 746 00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:18,640 might have all those that are in the industry for a long time and 747 00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:22,280 they they actually are committed to offering good quality. 748 00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:26,480 They will have a hard time while others that they don't really 749 00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:28,800 care about the quality they're offering. 750 00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:32,160 Yeah, they might they might have the life of the time with the 751 00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:36,040 volume. And also another point of point 752 00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:39,720 that I think that it's important like quite to mention is that 753 00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:44,200 pricing are almost the same like everywhere. 754 00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:49,720 If you have a packaging from brand is around around forty 755 00:45:49,720 --> 00:45:56,000 €4035 per 330 grams of matcha. So let's say you have a branded 756 00:45:56,240 --> 00:46:00,160 product, so you pay paying that. This is the average that you 757 00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:03,280 have. If you go to more, let's say 758 00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:07,480 bigger brands of tea, you can have, you can have it with a 759 00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:09,840 small pricing. So I can see that there is a 760 00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:15,760 competition into the category because why a product should why 761 00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:17,880 somebody should choose your product if they are paid the 762 00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:21,760 same and the quality is similar, first of all. 763 00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:26,200 And second of all, I think there is a problem with the fact that 764 00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:32,640 if they, if a person wants to purchase good quality can go to 765 00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:37,080 a speciality place and purchase it for way much less than 766 00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:39,880 actually if you sell it as a private brand. 767 00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:44,480 So there is that part also. One other point is actually that 768 00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:46,320 most of the brands, they have an online shop. 769 00:46:46,720 --> 00:46:51,040 So distribution, it's important to have like the speciality 770 00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:55,120 cafes that are advocating your product so you can display it 771 00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:59,560 and it's possible to purchase it after they try it in a latter. 772 00:46:59,880 --> 00:47:03,160 So that's another problem that I can see not everybody's like 773 00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:05,920 skilled to enter different kind of cafes. 774 00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:09,280 You need a development plan and you you need as well to the 775 00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:11,680 possibility to showcase your product. 776 00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:14,480 So you need to have like a brand collaboration. 777 00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:18,200 So maybe go in places that I don't know, I think about the 778 00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:21,680 much as to like Pilate studios. I think about, I don't know, K 779 00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:26,400 pop Korean, let's say cosmetics places where you can serve your 780 00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:31,640 product and then people can can really buy it because people 781 00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:35,120 will never really purchase your product if then they have not 782 00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:38,160 tried it. It's impossible, like even. 783 00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:40,040 Yeah, yeah. Especially if you're laying out 784 00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:42,680 that much money online, you don't know what you're buying. 785 00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:46,320 Yeah, exactly, exactly. So it's a lot in any case, like 786 00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:51,600 €4040 for a can of 30 grams of matcha is enormous. 787 00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:55,400 I mean, not for somebody that is crazy like us to spend a lot of 788 00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:58,560 money in tea. But however, if you think about 789 00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:02,320 the yeah, the, the, the amount of money, it's, it's a lot. 790 00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:06,080 It's more than one euro program. Yeah, yeah, it's insane for 791 00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:08,440 like, especially if you're asking the average consumer or 792 00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:11,520 macho lover. It's it's risky too. 793 00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:14,840 You're making a bet, not just not good. 794 00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:17,840 How many times are you willing to do that before you drop out 795 00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:19,880 of the category you know entirely? 796 00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:23,720 No, it's fine. I mean, I, I, I still have some 797 00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:25,760 brands because I tasted it quite a lot. 798 00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:29,600 And when I tasted and I don't like it, I just put it in a, in 799 00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:33,440 a latte or, you know, with a Tony or with some, some kind of 800 00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:38,000 cream and it works OK. Because at the end is, it's, I 801 00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:41,000 mean, you need to have like kind of balance of flavour, but it's 802 00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:42,680 too bitter. I mean, I don't mind also 803 00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:47,160 drinking too bitter because I like, I like a more bitter 804 00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:49,840 taster. But for people that are not used 805 00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:52,720 to it, like it's a no go and they need to create something. 806 00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:56,080 And that's as well one of the points that I think that 807 00:48:56,480 --> 00:49:01,920 differentiate also brands like your marketing and social media 808 00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:06,320 education to your customers, the idea that you give them to the 809 00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:12,320 community to create something to do a recipe to, to just use it 810 00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:15,560 in an alternative way. Even for cooking example, like 811 00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:18,760 give the example. I think that's could be another 812 00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:22,440 differentiating factor for small brands having the right 813 00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:26,560 community, having the community to actually support and show the 814 00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:29,040 community, educate where it's coming from. 815 00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:33,800 What like how to do it. It's another point because there 816 00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:38,680 is an aesthetic behind, there is the possibility to customize, 817 00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:40,840 there is a latte art that you can create. 818 00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:44,400 So there is a old category that that they called the 819 00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:48,800 beautification of matcha that can be explored into making a 820 00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:52,080 brand successful. And then of course, like if you 821 00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:55,600 think about the brands like the bigger brands like Annate, they 822 00:49:55,600 --> 00:50:00,560 created books on educating people about matcha and whatever 823 00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:04,360 is my opinion about the their matcha, like this is a winning 824 00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:09,240 strategy in the long term because you are ready by writing 825 00:50:09,240 --> 00:50:13,040 a book, you are proclaiming yourself a leader into a market, 826 00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:17,880 despite now books psychic and not everybody's is reading them 827 00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:20,280 because I mean, there is digitalisation of everything, 828 00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:24,600 but they have a good, let's say selling point and they are if 829 00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:27,920 you want to learn more like this is a reference you see. 830 00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:32,400 Yeah, makes sense and really like localizing and resonating 831 00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:35,000 with the customer base, especially in new languages. 832 00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:38,320 And so in a lot of language, if you don't know English, it's 833 00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:40,840 different, or even in some cases, if you don't know 834 00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:42,560 Japanese, it's very hard to learn. 835 00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:45,800 Yeah. But now like I say that for 836 00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:49,320 instance, in a like a market as fragmented as Belgium where you 837 00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:53,240 have the French speaking, you have the Flemish speaking and 838 00:50:53,240 --> 00:50:57,240 then you have the English that is basically based mostly in 839 00:50:57,280 --> 00:50:59,600 Brussels. But also like there are a lot of 840 00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:01,720 immigrants. So like English is by default 841 00:51:01,720 --> 00:51:04,680 language. You could say they are they are 842 00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:08,960 brands per per parts, like per regions of of it. 843 00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:14,320 Nevertheless, I think that now you can do a strategy based on 844 00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:16,920 every in English and it's working very well. 845 00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:19,800 Like most of the brands that I know they are speaking in 846 00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:23,360 English or they are starting having like conversation in 847 00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:25,720 French. So I can, I didn't think that is 848 00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:29,240 like language can definitely can be a barrier, especially if 849 00:51:29,240 --> 00:51:34,040 you're in France and you like if you're from UK or from if you 850 00:51:34,240 --> 00:51:37,120 US, it will be a problem entering the French market. 851 00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:41,360 Nevertheless, I don't think that language has become such a big, 852 00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:46,800 such a big barrier considering that let's say that social media 853 00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:50,600 has so much contribute to the influence of matcha and the use 854 00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:55,000 of matcha that most of the accounts that are successful. 855 00:51:55,040 --> 00:51:59,840 So most of the accounts that that have been open and talked 856 00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:03,000 about and disseminate information about matcha or 857 00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:07,160 wanting the brand to explore more, they, they are all in 858 00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:09,880 English. So I mean, except from China, 859 00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:13,320 but we're talking about more the European, let's say, market in 860 00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:13,880 this. Sure. 861 00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:17,360 OK, very interesting. I guess there's one last 862 00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:18,400 question. What? 863 00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:21,640 How do you want to see the future of the matcha industry, 864 00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:26,000 or specialty tea industry in general, evolve in the next? 865 00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:29,880 That's a good question. I used to say that I think 866 00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:32,960 that's OK. So matcha will become now is 867 00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:37,280 actually a common product that you can find in every specialty 868 00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:41,880 coffee, almost everywhere, even kebab shops everywhere. 869 00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:45,080 There is the possibility to exploit it, you can find it. 870 00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:48,720 But I do believe that there is a saturation of the market that 871 00:52:48,720 --> 00:52:52,960 will come naturally with time of course, when you reach that kind 872 00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:55,600 of volume. So they will have sort of 873 00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:59,640 competition war between the bigger brands and then the 874 00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:03,880 competition war between the smaller brands and who'll win? 875 00:53:04,360 --> 00:53:07,320 We'll see. But I do believe that we are 876 00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:11,400 going to have it even more a product like common product. 877 00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:15,400 Everybody will know about Matcha because it's already the case. 878 00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:19,760 However, like there's still like a more, let's say season season 879 00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:24,880 generation that still hasn't yet tried it, like refuses to try it 880 00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:27,080 or more like it's not something that they will. 881 00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:30,080 They will never give up coffee. They will never give up wine. 882 00:53:30,080 --> 00:53:32,640 They will never try maybe matcha. 883 00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:35,480 So like there is this season in generation. 884 00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:40,240 But what what I can see is that once the generation will 885 00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:46,400 slightly go on with the life in this case that it will be like 886 00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:49,360 it, it will be by default. You'll find it everywhere. 887 00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:54,440 Because I don't like generation X and generation like 888 00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:58,440 millennials and Z and Alpha and all the different kind of they 889 00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:00,600 will come, they will know about matcha. 890 00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:05,640 So I say that is a bright future for the for the product. 891 00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:11,320 However, we need to understand up until where there will be 892 00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:16,160 quality and if the market will have like it's happening with 893 00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:18,320 generally all the product categorisation. 894 00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:23,040 You have the niche product, you have the medium like volume part 895 00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:25,960 and then you have the mass volume that will go into. 896 00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:30,600 I do believe that is, since Matcha is part of more culture, 897 00:54:30,720 --> 00:54:35,560 a Wellness culture, up until there will be the Wellness 898 00:54:35,560 --> 00:54:40,320 culture driving this kind of boom will not have a stop 899 00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:44,600 because it can be is no more. A knife is actually a product 900 00:54:44,720 --> 00:54:49,040 that you need to have to attract the consumers, to attract the 901 00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:52,440 next generation consumer. You cannot have a cafe not 902 00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:55,880 offering much. I mean you can choose like in 903 00:54:55,880 --> 00:54:59,120 Germany, they choose to say OK, this establishment doesn't serve 904 00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:03,560 much. However, yeah, when do you think 905 00:55:03,560 --> 00:55:07,840 that this, the new generation will stop drinking coffee? 906 00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:11,160 How many times like we could say that I stop drinking coffee, 907 00:55:11,160 --> 00:55:14,080 Many other people's in my network stop drinking coffee 908 00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:17,520 because it's like they don't, they don't cope functionally 909 00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:20,320 with it. And they started with macho by 910 00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:24,360 by chance, you see. And then step by step, they 911 00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:28,200 actually, yeah, just consume matcha all the time and. 912 00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:31,120 If they drink it every day for the rest of their life, that's 913 00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:36,160 fifty 6070 years of consumption. It's compound growth, every new 914 00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:38,120 person. Exactly. 915 00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:40,840 Exactly. And then like it was like maybe 916 00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:44,000 with grandma's passing up the recipes, that would be grandma's 917 00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:47,160 recipe. I prefer, I prefer my matcha to 918 00:55:47,160 --> 00:55:51,320 be with coconut milk instead of almond milk or pea milk. 919 00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:54,640 And then with this kind of poor. So I do believe that there is 920 00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:58,760 the possibility to actually that is there to stay. 921 00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:02,200 So definitely that will be a more, it will become a mass 922 00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:03,920 product. It's already a mass product. 923 00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:08,120 It will become a mass product. It will also be present in cold 924 00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:11,840 brew, already ready to drink. You have the example of of 925 00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:15,400 Starbucks, the just lunch, the the ice matcha latte. 926 00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:20,040 You can see it in already preparation with matcha and 927 00:56:20,040 --> 00:56:22,880 oatmeal. Oatley is a good example. 928 00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:24,680 They have this kind of preparation. 929 00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:28,640 You have it with coconut, so it's already ready to drink. 930 00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:32,680 So basically the only thing that you have to do is to heat up in 931 00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:35,840 a microwave or put a little bit of cream on top and you have 932 00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:39,120 your drink. So I do believe that is there to 933 00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:44,160 stay in a little bit. I, I do hope that there will not 934 00:56:44,160 --> 00:56:47,080 be this dichotomy that is generally happening between 935 00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:51,560 tradition and innovation, saying, OK, like the innovation 936 00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:55,120 is always better and it's the, the default way to drink it 937 00:56:55,800 --> 00:56:59,440 because the traditional, how to consume matcha in a ceremonial 938 00:56:59,440 --> 00:57:02,080 way is, is very interesting to preserve. 939 00:57:02,200 --> 00:57:05,000 But yes, I, I do believe that the mass market would be there 940 00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:09,160 for the matcha. And regarding speciality tea, 941 00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:13,600 the hope is that more people get into matcha will be get more 942 00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:18,280 interested into green teas and then from there going into 943 00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:20,080 interest in in more and more tea. 944 00:57:20,640 --> 00:57:24,520 And once you fill it in the rabbit hole of teas, you never 945 00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:26,960 go back because there's so much to taste. 946 00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:31,080 But of course, I do hope that there will be another product in 947 00:57:31,080 --> 00:57:35,040 the tea category that will be able to create the same kind of 948 00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:38,920 buzz as matcha. It might be, I don't see it. 949 00:57:38,920 --> 00:57:45,080 So rose like say very, but let's let's hope there will be 950 00:57:45,080 --> 00:57:47,400 somebody like some other products, say, for instance, 951 00:57:47,400 --> 00:57:52,000 think about oolong tea can really be a great alternative 952 00:57:52,080 --> 00:57:57,120 for the for the lattes can be I think about the black matcha 953 00:57:57,120 --> 00:58:00,480 that the white orchard is offering like it's a it's really 954 00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:03,640 speaking to a certain audience, somebody that doesn't like so 955 00:58:03,640 --> 00:58:07,320 much the vegetable taste. People are loving it with oat 956 00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:10,000 milk and with with a little bit of Maple syrup. 957 00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:13,240 So I do, I believe there is the possibility. 958 00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:17,280 The only problem is in the case of the speciality is the price 959 00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:21,280 point, because the powder price point is always more elevated 960 00:58:21,280 --> 00:58:24,400 than actually the tea. And already the teas are quite 961 00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:27,160 elevated in the price to be competitive in our current 962 00:58:27,160 --> 00:58:29,000 market. And maybe in the future market 963 00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:32,360 we'll be able to compete. But it's too too much of a 964 00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:35,360 difference between the consumption of tea as commodity 965 00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:38,840 level when you pay a tea bag $0.15. 966 00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:44,400 And then he added the special charity where you can pay 20 967 00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:48,160 grams, I don't know, €20 or €25.00. 968 00:58:48,160 --> 00:58:52,920 So it's very, very difficult to predict since it's such a, such 969 00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:57,280 a big market and such a many variations to say this is a 970 00:58:57,280 --> 00:59:01,200 product that will succeed. And as well, like, let's not 971 00:59:01,200 --> 00:59:06,640 forget that the boom of matcha is done by the social media, by 972 00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:11,520 the influencers, by the female, like the beautification of the 973 00:59:11,520 --> 00:59:14,840 businesses. Everything is very pastel wise, 974 00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:17,440 very beautiful. And of course, for the love of 975 00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:22,240 Japan. So like the fact to we're 976 00:59:22,400 --> 00:59:26,960 talking about a lot about Asia maxing or like China maxing as 977 00:59:26,960 --> 00:59:32,600 well up until there will not be, let's say this kind of love for 978 00:59:32,880 --> 00:59:35,840 particular product in China. That will be difficult. 979 00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:39,840 Of course, if you think about also the the meal like the 980 00:59:39,840 --> 00:59:43,160 bubble tea industry, that could be as well. 981 00:59:43,160 --> 00:59:46,960 Another example is saying how where the speciality can go, you 982 00:59:46,960 --> 00:59:51,720 can have more pointed products like you have Haiti, London. 983 00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:57,760 Yeah, yeah, that they create good milk tea with cumin, black 984 00:59:57,760 --> 01:00:02,240 tea with like Jasmine Pearl. They create, they really use the 985 01:00:02,240 --> 01:00:07,000 the leaves into the production. So you could say they could be, 986 01:00:07,640 --> 01:00:13,080 let's say a more consumption of good quality tea via the 987 01:00:13,080 --> 01:00:17,200 preparation of the bubble tea or the lattice like a tea lattice. 988 01:00:17,520 --> 01:00:21,360 So could be another way to see the industry in a positive 989 01:00:21,360 --> 01:00:23,800 light. I'm not talking about Kung Fuchs 990 01:00:23,800 --> 01:00:29,280 style, I'm just hoping that at least the quality of the teas 991 01:00:29,440 --> 01:00:33,120 will be more available in like common establishment, indoor 992 01:00:33,120 --> 01:00:35,560 like a sector. That makes sense. 993 01:00:35,880 --> 01:00:38,320 And actually in China, I'm in and out of China all the time. 994 01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:43,560 The number like Haiti for as you said, chuggy ginly crushed lemon 995 01:00:43,560 --> 01:00:45,200 tea. They're like they're and they're 996 01:00:45,200 --> 01:00:48,440 using like dancehall sometimes single cultivar dance on and 997 01:00:48,440 --> 01:00:50,160 then smashing these fragrant lines. 998 01:00:50,480 --> 01:00:53,360 It's so good. It's it would be really cool to 999 01:00:53,360 --> 01:00:56,160 see some of that culture across the border. 1000 01:00:56,200 --> 01:01:00,840 But you see, like when I was in in Taiwan, I'd never drink any 1001 01:01:00,920 --> 01:01:03,120 matcha because the quality of matcha, it was not good. 1002 01:01:03,120 --> 01:01:08,080 Honestly, I tried three different kind of places and all 1003 01:01:08,080 --> 01:01:11,280 of them very disappointed as a like quality. 1004 01:01:11,720 --> 01:01:16,520 And to be honest, the quality of the tea is so good into like in 1005 01:01:16,600 --> 01:01:19,800 into the drinks, like the creation of the milk tea. 1006 01:01:20,160 --> 01:01:24,640 It's so good that you almost don't want to drink matcha for 1007 01:01:24,640 --> 01:01:27,240 the quality that there is currently in Taiwan. 1008 01:01:27,600 --> 01:01:32,120 So when you think about using high, high mountain lung, you 1009 01:01:32,320 --> 01:01:37,680 don't think like really low rental beauty into the base of 1010 01:01:37,720 --> 01:01:42,560 extracting really the flavours via concentrated brood. 1011 01:01:42,560 --> 01:01:46,240 Basically when you put a lot of leaves and then you have like 1012 01:01:46,240 --> 01:01:48,920 this kind of extraction, then you need to add just a little 1013 01:01:48,920 --> 01:01:53,480 bit of water and with a little bit of milk if you want to, or 1014 01:01:53,560 --> 01:01:55,760 just simple like that. Because there are chains that 1015 01:01:55,760 --> 01:01:58,680 actually serve it without adding anything. 1016 01:01:58,680 --> 01:02:01,320 Just the flavor profile of of a tea of the tea. 1017 01:02:02,280 --> 01:02:05,520 Yeah, that's that's amazing. Because then you can also 1018 01:02:05,520 --> 01:02:07,600 customize it with the sugar level. 1019 01:02:07,800 --> 01:02:09,840 You can customize it with the ice level. 1020 01:02:09,840 --> 01:02:11,240 You can customize it as you wish. 1021 01:02:11,480 --> 01:02:16,320 So like basically is like the matcha that we have here in in 1022 01:02:16,320 --> 01:02:21,080 Europe is almost as it is the bubble tea in Taiwan. 1023 01:02:21,080 --> 01:02:24,280 So like the level of customization is very similar. 1024 01:02:24,520 --> 01:02:28,120 The only difference that instead of the matcha, they use the tea, 1025 01:02:28,120 --> 01:02:29,480 the local tea that they have there. 1026 01:02:30,080 --> 01:02:32,560 Yeah. Yeah, that's a wonderful 1027 01:02:32,560 --> 01:02:35,600 connection and actually could be a very nice way that specialty 1028 01:02:35,600 --> 01:02:38,400 tea can grow within Europe. Like it doesn't have to look 1029 01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:41,360 like Kung Fu cha, doesn't have to look like Sanche dough. 1030 01:02:41,600 --> 01:02:43,600 It can take on these new forms that are a little more 1031 01:02:43,600 --> 01:02:45,520 contemporary. Yeah, I think so. 1032 01:02:46,200 --> 01:02:48,520 And the bright future in in Paris. 1033 01:02:48,520 --> 01:02:52,000 You have fan fan tea, Have you tried? 1034 01:02:52,640 --> 01:02:55,440 No, I haven't. Tea is basically the you can 1035 01:02:55,440 --> 01:02:59,440 have a dance song, you have a cumin black tea, you have a 1036 01:02:59,440 --> 01:03:04,280 base, a great base, and then you can add everything you can think 1037 01:03:04,280 --> 01:03:07,200 about, but it's already a good base of tea. 1038 01:03:07,200 --> 01:03:10,760 You see that it's already giving you the possibility to to take 1039 01:03:10,760 --> 01:03:13,000 first of all, to smell the leaves because they have the 1040 01:03:13,000 --> 01:03:17,040 possibility to smell the leaves to see the leaves how they are. 1041 01:03:17,560 --> 01:03:21,760 And then you you can top it off with whatever you feel like. 1042 01:03:21,800 --> 01:03:24,720 If you don't feel like getting anything sweet is fine. 1043 01:03:25,000 --> 01:03:28,160 But there is there are also a lot of interesting combination 1044 01:03:28,160 --> 01:03:31,960 with cream that they don't have any sweet and adjusted. 1045 01:03:31,960 --> 01:03:36,360 So like you can, you can really create a healthy drink without 1046 01:03:36,440 --> 01:03:39,280 the maturity vibe that you can have. 1047 01:03:40,200 --> 01:03:42,160 Very cool. Yeah, you should try it. 1048 01:03:42,640 --> 01:03:46,120 Yeah, I need to check it out. This was awesome. 1049 01:03:46,120 --> 01:03:48,520 Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your insights. 1050 01:03:49,280 --> 01:03:52,120 You're more than welcome, thank you for hearing from me and 1051 01:03:52,160 --> 01:03:54,280 sorry for blab blabbering so much. 1052 01:03:54,280 --> 01:03:57,360 No, no, no, we love that here. It's going down rabbit holes is 1053 01:03:57,920 --> 01:03:59,600 is what this podcast is all about. 1054 01:03:59,960 --> 01:04:02,600 If people want to learn more about your work and your 1055 01:04:02,600 --> 01:04:05,400 company, the website the best place to go to. 1056 01:04:06,240 --> 01:04:10,160 Is the website also I'm starting to get very active on on 1057 01:04:10,160 --> 01:04:14,120 Instagram or LinkedIn? I'm very, very active because my 1058 01:04:14,120 --> 01:04:18,560 work is mostly from the business perspective, so I need people to 1059 01:04:18,560 --> 01:04:22,280 realise what is going on in the industry, especially here in 1060 01:04:22,280 --> 01:04:25,160 Europe. But most of the my work, it can 1061 01:04:25,160 --> 01:04:28,000 be found on the website. I have more than 90 interviews 1062 01:04:28,000 --> 01:04:32,800 with people in the industry. Yes, it's a really big, big 1063 01:04:32,800 --> 01:04:35,280 database of learning. You just need to have the 1064 01:04:35,280 --> 01:04:39,800 patient to, to read and to be interested by by the topic. 1065 01:04:40,000 --> 01:04:43,440 There are slightly changing it because I would like people to 1066 01:04:43,520 --> 01:04:47,560 to have a more to be more at ease to look for topics. 1067 01:04:47,600 --> 01:04:51,600 So I might be saying, OK, this is the kombucha section, this is 1068 01:04:51,600 --> 01:04:54,920 the sparkling tea, this is the matcha section, so people can 1069 01:04:54,920 --> 01:04:59,080 can really see what is going on. And also, if you find me at 1070 01:04:59,080 --> 01:05:04,000 festivals, don't hesitate to to actually come and, and chat 1071 01:05:04,000 --> 01:05:07,840 about, about the tea. It's always nice to meet new 1072 01:05:07,880 --> 01:05:11,800 people in the tea and the beauty of the tea community still 1073 01:05:12,120 --> 01:05:16,200 quite, quite one of the things that that drove me actually to 1074 01:05:16,200 --> 01:05:19,040 the to the speciality. Tea people were the best, yeah. 1075 01:05:19,360 --> 01:05:21,800 I think so. So if you enjoyed this episode, 1076 01:05:21,800 --> 01:05:24,280 please consider sharing with a friend and we'll see you in the 1077 01:05:24,280 --> 01:05:25,160 next one. Thanks. 1078 01:05:25,440 --> 01:05:27,200 Take care. Thank you.