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Money at Menards. 9 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:40,080 Welcome to this exclusive episode with Nitish Mani, Chief 10 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:45,560 Strategy Officer at World Quant Founded in 2007, World Quant is 11 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:49,400 a leading global quantitative asset management firm with over 12 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:52,120 $7 billion in assets under management. 13 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:56,160 In this conversation, we dive into his journey from consulting 14 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:59,600 to quant trading, the biggest misconceptions about the 15 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:03,960 industry, and why creativity matters just as much as coding. 16 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:08,080 Netish shares how the firm is reshaping talent pipelines 17 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:11,040 through initiatives like World Quant Brain and the 18 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:13,240 International Quant Championship. 19 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:17,600 So if you're an aspiring quant or just curious about markets, 20 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:20,520 this one is for you. So let's get started. 21 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:29,320 Hello, Netician, Really, really excited for this conversation 22 00:01:29,320 --> 00:01:32,560 because it's not very often where I get to talk to someone 23 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:36,760 in your role as a Chief Strategy Officer, someone who works for 24 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:40,360 World Quant and it's kind of ties to the hedge fund space. 25 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:43,360 So really appreciate your time and the insights I'm sure you're 26 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:45,920 going to share. So for any listeners, the three 27 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:49,160 areas that we're going to cover are going to be and the Tish's 28 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:51,600 background and his career path, which has been particularly 29 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:55,120 interesting because wasn't always quant finance, which 30 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:58,440 we're we're about to find out. And then the evolution of 31 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:01,280 quantitative finance and how it's changed and interested to 32 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:03,720 get your views to Tish about where it's heading. 33 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:07,240 And then finally, world quant, yes, a lot of people would have 34 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:08,800 heard of world quant, but not everyone. 35 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:11,760 And there's this amazing competition you run that's just 36 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:14,360 global and off the scales, off the charts. 37 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:16,760 And I'd love to find out more. And there's lots of other 38 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:19,840 resources as well that I know this is a growing space of 39 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:22,640 interest for for students and young professionals, which I 40 00:02:22,640 --> 00:02:25,440 know you're going to share. So, yeah, welcome. 41 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:28,840 And perhaps you could take us back to the beginning and a 42 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:31,800 brief summary of your your background from your childhood 43 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:35,040 student days up to what you're doing today in your new role. 44 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:41,680 Thank you, Anthony. So I'm currently based in 45 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:47,640 Connecticut, US, but I was born and bought up in Punjab, India, 46 00:02:47,640 --> 00:02:53,240 which is in North India. And then I trained myself for 47 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:57,360 the competitive exam in India, which is called IIDGE, which is 48 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:01,560 required to, you know, you need to pass and get a good rank in 49 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:05,840 that exam to, to go graduate to go to one of the Indian 50 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:09,760 Institute of Technologies, the IDs in India. 51 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:12,680 So I was born and brought up in Punjab. 52 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:17,800 Then I went to IIT Kanpur where I studied an integrated 53 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:20,280 undergrounds and masters in in economics. 54 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:24,520 After graduating from the university, I joined McKinsey 55 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:26,840 and Company. I was very interested in 56 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:32,480 business strategy, spent some time there, but then change 57 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:36,520 company moved to World Quant, which is much, you know, over a 58 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:41,800 decade now, 13 years at World Quant as a researcher out of the 59 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:47,160 India office in Mumbai. And then back in 2016 got an 60 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:50,720 opportunity to move to US as a portfolio manager. 61 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:56,560 And then a little over five years ago, I was offered to work 62 00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:01,080 with the CEO of World Quantity, Gorzinski to build the vision 63 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:04,400 and strategy of the company. And that's what I'm doing right 64 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:08,200 now as a part of my strategy officer rule. 65 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:12,800 I, you know, identify the key strategic initiatives that World 66 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:17,200 Quant should run, come up with a short, medium and long term 67 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:21,560 plans for our initiatives, decide on how we want to 68 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:26,000 allocate resources of the firm across these initiatives. 69 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:30,320 Then I also manage the capital allocation across various 70 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:33,920 portfolio managers at the firm and across these initiatives. 71 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:39,760 In addition to that, we are big on creating opportunity for the 72 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:43,520 talent globally. So in my role, I run initiatives 73 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:46,720 like BRAIN and International Quant Championship, which we'll 74 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:50,720 talk about later today to make this opportunity of quant 75 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:53,400 finance available to talent across the globe. 76 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:58,600 Wow, so there's already a whole bunch of questions you're you're 77 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:01,600 explaining that, but but the first one I actually jumped to 78 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:06,480 mind was that I guess places like India and I wonder 79 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:10,200 elsewhere in say Eastern Europe, I've heard as well. 80 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:14,480 Is there is it a normal thing for for a student from those 81 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:16,680 locations to then move to the US? 82 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:20,800 And is that is that a common move or is it or not? 83 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:25,600 Yes, so. If you're talking specifically 84 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:30,200 about quant finance, then I would say quant finance was 85 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:34,800 considered a very niche industry where you have to be in one of 86 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:39,840 the big financial hubs like US or London and you know then 87 00:05:39,840 --> 00:05:43,040 Singapore, Hong Kong. But if you are in other 88 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:47,040 geographies, this information about quant finance as an 89 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:50,120 opportunity was not really available. 90 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:54,920 But lately say as world quant, we are running 27 offices and we 91 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:58,280 are creating opportunity for the talent wherever they are. 92 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:00,400 So this opportunity is now global. 93 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:04,240 So if somebody does not really want to move, it is now being 94 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:07,960 made available to individuals who are interested in their 95 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:10,200 locations instead of having to move. 96 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:15,280 But moving is also an option. Like, you don't necessarily have 97 00:06:15,280 --> 00:06:18,800 to be in your hometowns in your home locations, but you can also 98 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:22,680 move some of these territories, which are financial hubs, if you 99 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:26,320 want to gain more exposure of how, say, Wall Street runs. 100 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:31,360 And also you mentioned McKinsey, you mentioned McKinsey and I 101 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:35,800 know KPMG as well. And so I just wondered what 102 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:39,440 drove the decision to pivot because I know a lot of students 103 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:43,680 kind of tend to think that their commitment very early in their 104 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:47,200 career will define them. But you've done a kind of 105 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:49,600 consulting and then switched to quite a different area. 106 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:51,920 So what? What drove that decision making 107 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:55,320 for you? Yes, yeah. 108 00:06:55,320 --> 00:07:00,080 So for background, I was interning at KPMG in Germany and 109 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:03,160 then as my first job I joined McKinsey and company. 110 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:09,160 One of my deep interests is in business strategy and McKinsey 111 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:12,200 and other consulting firms offers you a chance to, you 112 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:16,280 know, really practically execute that scale of designing 113 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:19,280 strategies and making recommendations to your clients. 114 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:25,040 But I was doing that role out of Delhi in India. 115 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:29,320 One of my very good friends, a very intelligent friend, 116 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:34,200 happened to join World Quant and that is how I actually came to 117 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:37,680 know about this industry. Quantitative finance. 118 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:42,280 Who doesn't get intrigued by, you know, the stock markets and 119 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:44,320 finance? We are all interested about it, 120 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:48,640 but we also know how technology has made advancements over the 121 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:53,440 last two and three decades. And speaking to him, I realized 122 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:57,400 that World Quant was one organization which was starting 123 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:00,680 their operations in India. It was founded in 2007 and I 124 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,960 joined it in 2012. It was one organization which 125 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:07,800 was deeply involved with the financial markets, with the 126 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:11,880 stock market, but was also utilizing the advancement in 127 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:14,120 technologies with the stock market. 128 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:18,000 So all of us may have seen how traditional trading used to 129 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,000 work. You pick phones, you call, you 130 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:26,320 try to place orders. But we all know how finance, 131 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:29,440 industry and stock markets are growing, the number of IP, OS 132 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:33,200 that are happening, how global exchanges are coming up, the 133 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:38,280 market caps are growing. But how much can a human really 134 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:40,679 do? How many stocks can they 135 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:42,520 analyse? How many decisions can they 136 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:45,160 move? So what I learned was 137 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:49,080 quantitative finance was basically about writing 138 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:54,640 systematic pieces of code to deploy your ideas across a large 139 00:08:54,800 --> 00:09:00,200 number of stocks. So you can create thousands and 140 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:05,160 10s of thousands of stock using an algorithm to systematically 141 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:10,480 execute your idea. So that idea came to me as a 142 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:14,560 very intriguing idea which I wanted to try, I wanted to test 143 00:09:14,560 --> 00:09:19,800 came across as very future oriented approach, something 144 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:24,880 that was just starting in India. And fortunately I put myself to 145 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:27,560 the interview process. It was a nine month long 146 00:09:27,560 --> 00:09:30,680 interview process. I went through 14 rounds of 147 00:09:30,680 --> 00:09:34,520 interviews and I'm glad I I made through. 148 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:38,280 And the whole idea was to benefit from the growing 149 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:42,240 advancements in technologies and the growing size of the global 150 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:45,320 financial markets. And World Quant as a 151 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:49,640 quantitative management firm was really bringing these two things 152 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:53,720 together led me to making this decision of switching the 153 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:56,280 careers. Makes sense. 154 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:01,440 And on the back of this, then the roles that you you held were 155 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:04,400 different. So there was a quant research 156 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:06,360 role and then a portfolio management role. 157 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:11,280 Couple things then on that. One is breaking down the roles 158 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:14,680 and the differences of the skills required to facilitate 159 00:10:14,680 --> 00:10:16,680 each. And the second question on the 160 00:10:16,680 --> 00:10:21,560 back of that, do you have to be a researcher before being APM or 161 00:10:21,560 --> 00:10:24,320 or or not? I'm not actually sure how that 162 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:26,480 works in practice. OK. 163 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:30,280 So a few questions on that. What is a quant researcher? 164 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:35,120 A portfolio manager, then skills required and then is 1A prereq 165 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:37,920 for the other. OK. 166 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:45,560 When I was first introduced to this role of quant researcher 167 00:10:45,560 --> 00:10:50,080 from outside of old quant, I had thought that I will be sitting 168 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:54,560 in front of the screen and just coding mathematical models. 169 00:10:56,200 --> 00:11:00,280 But when I joined old quant, I realized that there was such a 170 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:06,120 big entrepreneurial element and creativity to this role of being 171 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:11,360 a quantitative researcher. Imagine that you think that you 172 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:15,440 have an idea and if you will apply that idea to the stock 173 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:18,160 market, you think that this idea can make money. 174 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:22,120 And this is 1 idea. Now you can have a second idea, 175 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:26,960 third idea, and a fourth idea. What a quant researcher is 176 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:31,680 actually about is to think of those ideas of your own. 177 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:35,800 And then there are plenty of data sources available out 178 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:38,600 there. You think using which systematic 179 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:42,200 data can I actually apply this idea? 180 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:46,160 You need to have the capability to convert that idea into an 181 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:50,080 actual execution using some data and writing a piece of code. 182 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:54,360 And then it is about tracking the performance of your ideas 183 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:57,360 and continuously coming up with improvements to find more and 184 00:11:57,360 --> 00:11:59,560 more things to be a successful researcher. 185 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:02,920 So that is a quantitative researcher role. 186 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:08,200 After doing quant research, you have created so many signals. 187 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:12,520 A portfolio manager has a few steps in how he does portfolio 188 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:15,680 management. First, he has to identify which 189 00:12:15,680 --> 00:12:19,760 signals out of the big pool of signals he wants to select to 190 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:23,080 deploy the capital. Now, after selecting the 191 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:27,680 signals, he has to combine those signals in an optimal way. 192 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:30,960 Different signals have different ideas in them. 193 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:35,560 So he has to decide on what idea do I want to take more risk on 194 00:12:35,560 --> 00:12:38,040 and on which ideas I want to take less risk on. 195 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:43,880 And then he has to manage the risk which comes with it. 196 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:47,080 There are some systematic risk factors that exist out there, so 197 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:51,720 they have to manage how exposed their final combination of 198 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:56,840 alphas is true to risk. And after all of this done, 199 00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:02,200 there comes final decisions on what stocks and how much of them 200 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:03,800 do we want to trade in the market. 201 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:07,880 So as a portfolio manager, you are selecting the signals, you 202 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:11,240 are combining the signals and then you are taking care of 203 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:14,800 risks and other trading constraints before making the 204 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:18,760 strategy go live in the market. So that's what a portfolio 205 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:24,120 manager does. So the skills required for both 206 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:27,760 roles are relatively common. You need to have the ability to 207 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:33,880 think of ideas to be able to write a little piece of code to 208 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:37,400 implement those ideas. Your ability to be able to 209 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:41,200 understand the patterns your out of sample performance. 210 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:44,800 Improvise on your research as a researcher and a portfolio 211 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:46,400 manager. It's fascinating. 212 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:51,080 And and can you educate me about is world quant that element 213 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:53,040 you're talking about about creativity and 214 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:57,040 entrepreneurialism. Like for some reason, rightly or 215 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:01,120 wrongly, in my head, I have it that a quant hedge fund might 216 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:04,480 have a particular strategy and then it's about strategy 217 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:08,120 optimization, for example. But what you're talking about is 218 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:13,120 a lot of freedom, a freedom to create, freedom to think test. 219 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:17,880 Is that normal or is that a unique thing in the industry 220 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:25,520 context? Well, different funds have 221 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:30,400 different structures in how they, you know, how they 222 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:34,200 organize their talent and on what kinds of tasks. 223 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:39,600 Some organizations may want the talent to work specifically on a 224 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:43,480 particular kind of a problem and just keep thinking about that 225 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:47,200 problem to improve and improve and improve just that problem 226 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:51,760 statement. While there are others which 227 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:58,320 provide a more broad opportunity to the talent to explore, also 228 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,680 allowing them to go deep. If they choose to go deep in any 229 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:04,560 particular problem, they can go deep but also provide them the 230 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:07,880 exposure of the breadth and transparency of the whole 231 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:11,880 investment pipeline. World Quant fits more in the 232 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:16,520 second category where we allow the talent to explore various 233 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:20,920 domains we have and that is where World Quant quantity 234 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:27,120 approach comes. We have a huge library of data 235 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:31,080 sets. We believe in the creative 236 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:36,120 thinking of the talent. If we give one idea to a given 237 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:39,880 researcher to say, a group of researchers, what we notice is 238 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:44,280 different individuals will implement that idea in their own 239 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,320 ways and we will get uncorrelated signals even though 240 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:51,360 the original idea was the same. And this varies within our 241 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:55,720 geography, but also varies more across geographies. 242 00:15:56,600 --> 00:16:01,640 So that is where we try to attract talent from across the 243 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:04,920 globe because we get very creative and different thinking 244 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:07,840 from the talent. Yeah, that makes that makes 245 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:09,120 complete sense. Thank you. 246 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:12,880 And let's move on to the, the, the second segment, which is 247 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:16,360 more about the evolution of, of, of quantitative finance. 248 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:19,120 You kind of touched on this already so far in the 249 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:23,200 conversation, but one was about, I think many students or, or 250 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:25,560 professionals who work in finance, they're interested in 251 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:28,560 quant finance. But I just wondered, are there 252 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:31,600 misconceptions because you've, you've talked about kind of 253 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:36,280 mathematics and programming is that I'm assuming there's other 254 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:39,080 roles that sit within the spectrum and and other 255 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:41,600 complementary skill sets as well. 256 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:44,880 So are there, what are some of the biggest myths about kind of 257 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:47,560 working in quant finance do you think? 258 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:56,360 Yes. So I think maybe first touching 259 00:16:56,360 --> 00:17:00,480 a little bit on the evolution of quantitative finance over time 260 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:04,520 and then demystifying some of these myths that exist out 261 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:07,400 there. So, you know, going back say a 262 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:14,040 decade, most of the resources required to do quantitative 263 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:16,400 finance was not so easily available. 264 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:18,960 The compute was so much more expensive. 265 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:22,760 The hardware required to do this wasn't available out there. 266 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:27,359 The amount of data required to build quantitative signals was 267 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:30,720 not available. So the ability of the talent to 268 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:34,840 explore their ideas and do quantitative finance was not so 269 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:39,000 easily available. But as the technology has 270 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:44,560 advanced over time, the amount of data has exploded over time 271 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:50,360 and the number of firms that have risen up across geographies 272 00:17:50,360 --> 00:17:54,160 in this space, like as of December 2023, there were over 273 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:58,320 400 quant fund funds. I think this opportunity became 274 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:03,720 more mainstream because there are not easy ways to absorb so 275 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:07,920 much data and growing stock markets, growing number of 276 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:10,080 instruments and asset classes out there. 277 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:14,320 So quantitative finance is becoming like a more important 278 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:17,280 and a real thing for everybody to do to be successful. 279 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:26,080 So this this evolution has led to a lot of talent focused on 280 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:29,760 building themselves and generating the skills required 281 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:32,120 to be a part of this industry too. 282 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:36,000 But while this is happening, like you say, there are myths 283 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:41,800 that do I really have to have a PhD to be a quant? 284 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:46,560 Do I have to have mathematics and computer science to be a 285 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:49,400 PhD? So I shared with you in my 286 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:54,240 introduction that I went through 14 rounds of interviews and nine 287 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:59,560 month long process because world quant at that point used to hire 288 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:02,800 mathematics, computer science and physics students and I was 289 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:06,560 an economist. So a lot of back and forth and 290 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:10,360 discussions had to happen that how much can we venture out into 291 00:19:10,360 --> 00:19:13,160 other domains. And today at World Quant, we 292 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:18,880 employ talent from such varied departments, such varied 293 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:22,720 geographies, such varied backgrounds. 294 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:26,360 In terms of educations, yes, we have a large number of pH DS, 295 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:30,640 but we also have a large number of undergrads from various 296 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:34,800 disciplines who can actually present that they have the 297 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,840 creativity and the scale and the urge to do this. 298 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:42,640 So you do not necessarily have to have a PhD or mathematics 299 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:47,000 background to make or be successful on these roles. 300 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:51,720 Another big myth about, you know, the question that we're 301 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:57,200 usually asked about quant finance is, is AI going to take 302 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:02,560 over the humans, you know, in this industry because artificial 303 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:05,960 intelligence with latest LLM and everything. 304 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,960 Is getting so intelligent that why do we even need the humans 305 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:13,080 anymore? So the analogy that I really 306 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:16,400 like to give to answer this question is say we have to walk 307 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:21,840 from point A to point B. The amount of time it will take 308 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:25,480 for us to walk on our legs to go from point A to point B. 309 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:29,360 What says, say if we have a bicycle and we ride a bicycle 310 00:20:29,360 --> 00:20:33,400 from point A to point B, we can be so much more efficient just 311 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:38,800 because we have a tool, a technology which can make the 312 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:41,200 human more efficient and be able to do more. 313 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:45,120 So similar analogy applies in quant finance too. 314 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,760 Yes, there are tools, there is AI, there is machine learning, 315 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:53,400 but these tools only make the humans more efficient, more 316 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:58,440 productive to be able to deliver better results rather than being 317 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,560 replaced by them. So that's the myths. 318 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:06,560 Yeah, that that intellectual diversity makes so much sense in 319 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:11,040 the formula of the way that World Cron it seems is set up in 320 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:13,680 that way. So thank you for that breakdown. 321 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,720 I'm going to steal that analogy, if you don't mind, for future 322 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:18,560 reference. That was great. 323 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:22,240 OK, so let's let's move on and talk a little bit more about 324 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:25,400 World Cron. I know you've kind of touched on 325 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:28,280 it, but anything more colour you'd like to give about the 326 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:31,360 firm in itself? But then that we'd love to move 327 00:21:31,360 --> 00:21:34,640 on and talk about your your key platform, which is brain after. 328 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:39,440 It sure, yes, I've been giving you analogy to understand the 329 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:44,080 quant finance base using World Quant as an example, but to give 330 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:45,840 a proper introduction to World Quant. 331 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:49,240 World Quant is a quantitative asset management firm. 332 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:52,840 It was founded in 2007 by Igor Tulcinski. 333 00:21:54,240 --> 00:22:00,680 We are headquartered here in Old Greenwich, CT, US and World 334 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:05,240 Quant today has over 1000 employees across 27 offices. 335 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:10,680 Right from the beginning, our approach has been to create an 336 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:14,000 opportunity for global for global talent. 337 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:17,800 We think that different individuals think creatively and 338 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:24,840 bring very specific kinds of creativity, innovation into how 339 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:27,800 they approach solving the inefficiencies in the financial 340 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:31,640 markets. I mentioned we have a huge focus 341 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:35,480 towards quantity. We think quantity is quality. 342 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:40,640 We design a large number of signals in our research 343 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,880 ecosystem. We have a large number of 344 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,840 portfolio managers who create thousands of strategies 345 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:49,240 combining these millions of signals. 346 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:54,320 So that is a brief introduction about World Quant, our presence 347 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:57,560 and the way our investment pipeline is is organized. 348 00:22:58,360 --> 00:23:00,400 Yeah. And then and then Brain to start 349 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:02,200 things off. So there's three things I want 350 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:04,480 to get out of the rest of our our time together, which is 351 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:07,880 Brain the platform and then also learn to quant. 352 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:12,160 I I saw your face on a number of really high quality videos that 353 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:15,920 have just been released on YouTube and then also the 354 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:17,360 International Quant Championship. 355 00:23:17,360 --> 00:23:19,960 So perhaps we can start with what is Brain for those who've 356 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:22,840 never come across it. Yes. 357 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:30,480 World Quant Brain is our signal crowdsourcing initiative. 358 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:36,240 So one of the tag lines that we have is that talent is global, 359 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,880 but opportunity is not. And we want to make that 360 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:45,200 opportunity available globally. So the tool that World Quant has 361 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,480 created to make that opportunity available globally is World 362 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:52,240 Quant Brain. World Quant Brain allows 363 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:59,600 individuals to participate by learning skills of quantitative 364 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:04,760 finance, then deploying those skills on the web-based platform 365 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:10,120 called Brain to create some alpha signals and prove that 366 00:24:10,120 --> 00:24:13,280 they have the ability or the skill set to be able to do it. 367 00:24:14,360 --> 00:24:18,720 And in return, we offer consulting positions, internship 368 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:21,360 positions, full time job opportunities. 369 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:25,400 So as of today, World Quant Brain has over 150,000 370 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,240 individuals from across the globe on the platform. 371 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:34,720 And the whole idea is that there is so much talent across the 372 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:36,360 globe. We want to give them an 373 00:24:36,360 --> 00:24:40,160 opportunity to learn about quantitative finance, get them 374 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:45,720 engaged on the platform and then successful quants at World Quant 375 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:50,480 run regular trainings, tutorials, classes to educate 376 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,400 the individuals who are on the brain platform. 377 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:58,200 And so far we have hired over 60 individuals since the inception 378 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:01,400 of the platform for full time roles at the company. 379 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:05,120 And it has also become like a very important tool for us to 380 00:25:05,120 --> 00:25:09,760 identify good talent to work full time at the organization as 381 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,200 well. If I was a student then 382 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:14,840 listening to this, how would exactly would I go about getting 383 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:21,200 access to welcome brain? So you can search on Google 384 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:25,720 Worldconbrain. You just have to sign on onto 385 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,400 the platform. It sends your application to be 386 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:32,080 on the platform. So you go on the platform and 387 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:35,280 roll yourself. You start reading some of the 388 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:38,400 tutorials and educational material on the platform. 389 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,600 Start trying some of your ideas using a very simple expression 390 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:44,720 language. You don't really have to code on 391 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,520 the platform. We have made it much easier to 392 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:49,840 to implement the ideas on this platform. 393 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,920 And then there are some threshold levels you grow 394 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:56,720 through. Bronze level, silver level reach 395 00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,880 the gold level. Am I too old, in my 40s or? 396 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:05,240 Everybody is welcome. Anybody who's interested is 397 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,960 welcome. Given how interested and number 398 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:11,560 of ideas you talk about the financial markets in your in 399 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:16,200 your podcasts, Anthony, I think it makes you a very creative 400 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,280 individual full of ideas to try this. 401 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:20,840 You should. So anybody is eligible, 402 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:24,040 irrespective of age or backgrounds, to to participate 403 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:26,320 in this. Yeah, that's that's super cool. 404 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,320 I love, I love that tagline of it as well. 405 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:34,200 So is the Learn to Quant YouTube series, is that like an 406 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,920 onboarding or precursor to get you then into brain? 407 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:40,360 Would you suggest that's a good route for people to take? 408 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:47,120 Yes, so we as world quant, we were analysing, you know that 409 00:26:47,120 --> 00:26:49,640 quant finance is definitely becoming important. 410 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:56,000 Our mission to develop talent who knows about quant finance 411 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,200 and wants to build careers here. But we noticed that there was no 412 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:06,880 systematic practical series sitting out there which gives a 413 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:12,080 good introduction to, you know, various individuals who want to 414 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:16,280 learn what quant finance is and how is it very difficult. 415 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:18,800 Can I try it? So we thought, why don't we 416 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:24,000 create say some videos which can small 5 minute videos which can 417 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:28,240 give them introduction into what is quantitative finance. 418 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:33,480 Then show them some ideas by using various data sets or some 419 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:37,320 kind of common approaches that exist out there which help them 420 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:41,120 implement their ideas. So we did that in those videos 421 00:27:41,120 --> 00:27:44,360 to make them understand that yes, it sounds very difficult 422 00:27:44,360 --> 00:27:48,200 but if you are disciplined, it is doable. 423 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,440 So those videos give them that introduction plus also teaches 424 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:55,120 them some core skills required to be a quant, like how to 425 00:27:55,120 --> 00:28:00,320 manage risk, how to diversify your pool of signals, and how 426 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:05,800 quant finance incorporates lots of advancements in data 427 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:12,480 technology financial market as as an industry which interested 428 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,560 individuals may want to understand as they make their 429 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:19,040 career choices. OK, for for anyone listening, 430 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:22,960 I'll save that Google search and I will put all of the links to 431 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,320 everything that's being mentioned in the show notes. 432 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:27,720 So you just need to go to the show notes to the hyperlink to 433 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:31,400 get to the learn to quant YouTube channel on the world 434 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:35,560 Quant channel. But finally, I'd like to know a 435 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,400 bit more about the International Quant Championship because when 436 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:42,400 I first found out and, and explored this myself, I was 437 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:44,960 like, wow, this is another level. 438 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,920 It's like, feels like the World Cup of quantitative finance. 439 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:50,920 So can you explain? Can you just give me some 440 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:54,040 context of the size of this thing and then talk about its 441 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,680 purpose and how it works? Yes. 442 00:28:59,960 --> 00:29:05,520 So yesterday we launched the 5th iteration of the International 443 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:09,560 Quan Championship. So like I mentioned for World 444 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:13,960 Quan Brain, the goal is to reach out to all the talent out there 445 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:18,280 to help explore. But how do we reach out to the 446 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,400 talent and tell them that an opportunity like World Quan 447 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:27,640 Brain exists for them? And we thought competitions is a 448 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:33,560 great way of bringing attention of the talent out there to try 449 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,520 and explore this idea. And there is a little story 450 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,840 behind this. When I was a student back in IIT 451 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:44,320 Kanpur, I had an opportunity to participate in a global 452 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,440 competition representing my university, my country. 453 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:51,920 And being on that stage was such a great feeling which I still 454 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:54,760 remember. And I thought, why don't I 455 00:29:54,880 --> 00:30:00,200 replicate a similar feeling for a large number of individuals 456 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,520 across the globe? That is how we came up with this 457 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:04,520 idea of International Quad Championship. 458 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:10,120 It's a three stage event today. The first stage is a university 459 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,240 level where individuals from the university and rules start 460 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,360 competing. The second stage is a national 461 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,680 level. The best teams from the top 462 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:24,880 universities in Stage 1 qualify at the country round, the 463 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,960 national level to identify the national winner and then there 464 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:33,280 is a third stage, which is the international round to identify 465 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:38,360 the international quad champion. So that is where the winning 466 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:42,080 country teams come compete at the finals. 467 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,280 We've mostly organized it in Singapore. 468 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:51,000 That is where the finals is is organized and that is how it's a 469 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,400 three stage competition. In terms of scale, last year we 470 00:30:54,400 --> 00:31:00,920 had over 37,000 participants from 5000 plus universities, 180 471 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:07,760 countries and roll into this contest and there are very 472 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:12,640 successful stories from participants of of this contest 473 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:16,160 and the winners. So we are, although we are just 474 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:20,240 launching the 5th iteration, but we really hope that we are able 475 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,200 to attract more and more people through this competition to try 476 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,040 their hands on this quantitative finance opportunity. 477 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:31,280 I'm just curious because our audience of this podcast, this 478 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:36,360 show, they come from a large portion in the UK, in Europe, in 479 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,920 North America, there's some in South Asia. 480 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:45,320 So in the last four years, is there any patterns of 481 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:48,320 performance on who tends to perform well from a geography 482 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:49,840 perspective? I'm just curious. 483 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:56,200 Yes, I would say the competition is very stiff. 484 00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:01,400 There is not necessarily one country or one continent which 485 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:04,720 has outperformed. We have continued to surprise 486 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:09,120 ourselves with the with the show that the talent puts out there 487 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:13,680 on the stage in the finals. The first iteration of IQC, we 488 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:19,800 had two women from from Paris, France win the contest. 489 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:25,400 The following year we had individuals from Taiwan win the 490 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,920 contest. And in the other years we've 491 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:33,440 seen winners from UK, we have seen winners from US, we have 492 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,280 seen winners from Indonesia and India. 493 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:40,080 So it's very diversified in the top three ranks. 494 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,040 You will see a very good diversity of talent. 495 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:46,960 It's amazing. All right, Well, Nitish, it's 496 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,040 been, it's been awesome chatting with you. 497 00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:51,800 Definitely really enjoyed when you were deconstructing, 498 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,160 explaining the roles specifically because you've 499 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:55,760 experienced them. I think. 500 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,920 Well, quant as a business sounds super interesting in terms of 501 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,120 how it's set up. And yeah, I applaud you and the 502 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:05,160 firm for putting together these fabulous resources, which I will 503 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:07,760 put in the show notes. So I encourage everyone to to 504 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:09,560 check them out. But Latish, thank you for your 505 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:13,520 time and for talking to me. Thank you Anthony for having me 506 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:13,880 as well.